The NXR Podcast - September 26, 2023


THEOLOGY APPLIED - Origins Of The Nephilim ｜ 3 Primary Views ｜ Tim Chaffey

Topics
sons of god view Fallen Angel procreating
Hosted by
Joel Webbon Harrison Smith Antonio Griffith Dale Partridge Wewsley Todd Calvin Robinson
Mentioned
Sethite Seth Noah Farmer Bill Alexander Biltong Elizabeth Hurley Brendan Fraser B'nai Ha Elohim Tim Chafee Septuagint Augustine Calvinist Nephilim Clement Goliath Anakim Joshua Darwin Chuck and 2 more
DAILY TRUTH - When The Christian Faces His Own Death DAILY TRUTH - Effeminate Men

Episode Stats


Length

58 minutes

Words per minute

190.91

Word count

11,225

Sentence count

165

Harmful content

Misogyny

4

sentences flagged

Toxicity

4

sentences flagged

Hate speech

11

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

Who are the Nephilim, where do they come from, and how do they survive or return after the flood? In this episode of Theology Applied, Dr. Tim Chafee and I discuss the three most popular views in regards to the origins of the

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Topics generated with Qwen2.5-3B-Instruct.
Hosts, guests, and mentioned names generated with spaCy (en_core_web_sm), reconciled against Wikidata.
00:00:00 Who are the Nephilim, where do they come from, and how do they survive or return after the flood?
00:00:06 In this episode of Theology Applied, I'm welcome to the show, Dr. Tim Chafee, to discuss the three
00:00:12 most popular views in regards to the origins of the Nephilim. You're not going to want to miss
00:00:17 this episode. Applying God's Word to every aspect of life. This is Theology Applied.
00:00:24 in this episode i'm very privileged to welcome to the show for the first time
00:00:32 tim chafee tim chafee thanks for coming on hey joel thanks for having me it's great to be with
00:00:38 you absolutely so this is what we're going to be discussing we're actually going to do something
00:00:41 a little bit unusual we've done it well at this point we've done it once before so i had joshua
00:00:46 shooping we did a three-part series on eastern orthodoxy and it was really helpful to just
00:00:51 there are some topics that just need a little bit more time and so we're going to actually make this
00:00:55 a multiple part series and we're going to be discussing your book it's called fallen the sons
00:01:01 of god and the nephilim and so i'm excited to get into this but first can you just introduce
00:01:06 yourselves who do you work for what do you do and and what made you want to write a book about
00:01:12 giants and nephilim and watchers and fallen angels and all that stuff sure uh yeah so some
00:01:18 people may recognize me i work as the content manager for the ark encounter in the creation
00:01:22 museum so the attractions division of answers in genesis and i guess might as well just lead with
00:01:28 that as a ministry aig does not take an official position on a lot of the things we're going to be
00:01:33 talking about so the views that people are going to be hearing are my own and don't necessarily
00:01:38 represent those of aig um you know we have people there who will disagree but we can still work
00:01:44 together and uh you know for the the cause that we're called to to do uh at that ministry and uh
00:01:51 and get along just fine uh so so that's fine i just want people to know that i'm not i'm not
00:01:57 saying that the ark encounter teaches what tim is saying right now i hear you loud and clear ken
00:02:03 ham absolutely believes everything we're about to talk about that's what so much though that
00:02:09 his nickname for me no joke on this part is nephletim that's hilarious that's funny okay
00:02:15 i'm part of it i'm six foot eight six foot nine and so i've been called nephilim more times than
00:02:22 i could count um and yet people don't even understand that they're using a plural term
00:02:27 so they're called in a sense they're calling me giants rather than just giant uh but um so that
00:02:33 actually is one of the things that piqued my interest in this topic the number of times that
00:02:36 people had called me something like that and um you know when you see the word giants in the bible
00:02:42 what is going on what is it just tall people like you see in the nba because that's how i hear a lot
00:02:47 of people explain it but then when you are reading scripture it's like this seems something
00:02:51 it's very very different than what we're experiencing today and um so about 12 13 years
00:03:00 ago when i was working on my thn i had to to do a thesis and i thought well surely there's some
00:03:05 good scholarly material on this topic and I had trouble finding some and I thought you know what
00:03:10 this might be a really good topic to do as a thesis there were there were a lot of you know
00:03:15 YouTube was still sort of in its infancy so there weren't as many videos about this topic like there
00:03:20 are now but there are a lot of websites and blogs that had a maybe they had what I would consider
00:03:27 to be the right view but they would get into all sorts of fantastic and speculative things and I
00:03:33 thought no we we need to have a very serious bible study on this topic and so that's what i set out
00:03:39 to do and i finished my thesis that was back in 2011 and ever since then for the next eight years
00:03:47 or so i was working on this project in between all the other stuff that we were doing you know
00:03:52 during that time at work we were building the ark encounter and so i was a little bit busy
00:03:56 so there i didn't have a lot of free time to be working on this project but i knew there was so
00:04:02 much more that i couldn't get into in my thesis and uh i wanted to make it lay level i wanted it
00:04:06 to be something that would be um you know for the average person to be able to grasp uh started off
00:04:12 pretty easy but eventually it does have to get pretty deep um and so it took me about eight
00:04:18 years from that point to uh churn out this book that's almost 500 pages and i don't think i ever
00:04:23 i'll write on that thick anymore that's a lot of writing um but it was uh fascinating to explore
00:04:32 that i wondered when i first set out to do my thesis how can i do you know 150 pages roughly on
00:04:39 four verses of the bible or five verses genesis 6 1 through 4 and then numbers 13 33 and then i
00:04:46 realized there's a lot more to it than just that and i thought how can i keep it to 150 pages
00:04:52 right yeah so we can real quick and we'll go ahead and get into it for the listeners so we
00:04:59 want to do three different views of the origins of the nephilim but real quick before we do that
00:05:07 where can people get the book if they if they want to purchase a copy yeah so it'll be available on
00:05:12 amazon it's also on my own website which is uh i have a ministry on the side called risen ministries
00:05:18 So the website is just risenmin.com, short for ministry, so risenmin.com, and it'll be available there as well.
00:05:26 Great. Okay, so let's get into it, you know, because people disagree over this, Christians disagree over this.
00:05:32 And from what I found, you know, reading your book, and I was already aware of this from some of my own reading,
00:05:37 But the view that you hold to, and I hold to it as well, the fallen angel view, is a view that has not been very popular, at least for the past several centuries of church history.
00:05:52 It seems like it was maybe the original view, but fairly early on, within the first few hundred years, some other views came into play.
00:06:01 So three main views of the origins of the Nephilim.
00:06:04 What are those?
00:06:05 yeah so the this passage goes back to genesis 6 beginning at verse 1 when it talks about how so
00:06:12 right after you have the uh the descendants of adam through seth and then in chapter 4 you have
00:06:17 the descendants of adam through cain uh those that's what sets this was right before this then
00:06:22 it you get into really the flood narrative uh beginning with noah at the end of chapter 5
00:06:27 and then in genesis 6 it says the that it came about when men began to multiply in the face of
00:06:33 the earth and daughters were born to them that the sons of god saw the daughters of men that
00:06:36 they were beautiful and they took wives from whomever they chose and then you skip down to
00:06:41 verse four and it talks about the nephilim were on the earth in those days and so you have this
00:06:46 passage just talking about the sons of god marrying the daughters of men and having children with
00:06:51 them it talks about the nephilim and and people have wondered for years what is going on here so
00:06:56 that the three primary views if you're trying to identify who the sons of god are because that'll
00:07:02 help you understand who the Nephilim are. One view, the one that has been the dominant view
00:07:08 throughout church history from about the time of Augustine, so around 400 AD, up until about 1900,
00:07:15 it was the dominant view. It's called the Sethite view. So those two chapters I just mentioned,
00:07:21 Genesis 4 mentioning the line of Cain, Genesis 5 mentioning the line of Seth. The people who hold
00:07:26 that view will say, well, the line of Seth was the godly line from Adam to Noah, and then this line
00:07:31 of cain as a rebellious line so what you had is men from the line of of seth being godly so they're
00:07:38 the sons of god marrying the daughters of men these ungodly and so that's the sethite view
00:07:44 the another view that came up actually was developed before the sethite view at the end
00:07:49 of the first century early second century among uh rabbis and then not until about the the third
00:07:56 century in the church was uh something called the uh the i call it the royalty view or the
00:08:02 uh some people would look at it as like the um divine judges you know the attila the hun view
00:08:10 the attila the hun view right yeah yes people would be ruler who think that they're divine
00:08:16 or judges who think they're divine and so their their sons who would be you know princes or
00:08:21 something like that could be called sons of god sons of the deity in a sense and so that was and
00:08:28 then their sin was it says that they took wives from whoever they chose so they were polygamist
00:08:34 marriages they were bringing in women into their harem and so that was the sin that was going on
00:08:39 there the earliest view as far as we know it dates back to the intertestamental period there are
00:08:46 numerous um jewish writings at this time that talk about this and i think you can find even
00:08:52 earlier sources in in other places that um refer to uh angelic beings who have who were the sons
00:08:59 of god uh the the hebrew there benay ha elohim they were um they they came down married women
00:09:06 had uh children with them and those offspring were the nephilim uh so the word nephilim just
00:09:11 means giants uh there are a lot of websites videos out there that'll tell you it means
00:09:17 fallen ones it doesn't um it's a you won't find that in any of the lexicons you won't find in
00:09:23 academic commentaries and the reason for that is because it just simply doesn't um it doesn't mean
00:09:29 that so um those are the three views and then for about 1900 years people have been debating and
00:09:38 disagreeing and hopefully doing it in a cordial way and um a civil way understanding that this
00:09:43 does not it's not self-ific so we don't have to um condemn anybody who disagrees they're allowed
00:09:50 to be wrong that's what i say all the time there you go there you go so let's uh so we want to get
00:09:55 into the fallen angel view for our purposes but before we do let's um let's have you poke a few
00:10:01 holes in the other two views especially the sethite view because that's probably the most popular that
00:10:06 i encounter with good brothers in christ guys who we would agree on um a ton of not not just
00:10:12 primary doctrine but a ton of other secondary doctrines we would be in the same camp same
00:10:16 theological tribe 98 but this would be one of the things that we would differ in and again like you
00:10:22 said it's not something to divide over but uh this seems to be kind of um i don't know i maybe
00:10:28 sometimes i feel like people just want to be sophisticated and fallen angels just seems too
00:10:33 fanatical, you know, and like, so, oh, the Sethite view, I'm very, you know, so, you know, but
00:10:37 anyways, you made a good case. You know, I haven't finished the book yet, but I did read some of your
00:10:42 work on the Sethite view that has, you know, some backing, but you poke some good holes in that. So
00:10:48 could you show us why, maybe twofold, why is the Sethite view compelling? Where's the biblical
00:10:54 merit? But then where does it potentially fall short? Yeah, so I have a whole chapter dealing
00:11:00 with the the set that view here are the the arguments used in in favor of it and here are
00:11:05 some of the the problems with it so let's start with the arguments for uh immediately before
00:11:11 genesis chapter six you have this discussion of the line of seth and the line of cain so
00:11:17 contextually you can make the argument that's what was just talked about um but there are
00:11:23 there are some that's about it as far as the arguments for other than
00:11:27 No, that's not quite true. There are other passages later in the New Testament where
00:11:33 humans, believers are called sons of God. But one thing that people don't, if you pay very
00:11:41 close attention, nearly every single case, it's future. It's something that we will become or
00:11:47 that will be revealed. We're positionally there, but it has not been fully realized yet.
00:11:54 The creation itself groans with eager expectations for the sons of God to be revealed.
00:12:00 So you mentioned that, and I noticed in the book what you didn't mention,
00:12:04 and I'm curious your thoughts on this.
00:12:05 I can't remember.
00:12:06 It might be Clement of Alexander.
00:12:07 Was he a Sethite guy?
00:12:09 One of the earliest?
00:12:10 I'm trying to think of one of the earliest Sethite guys.
00:12:12 Oh, I would have to go back and look at the chart at the end. 0.70
00:12:14 I've got...
00:12:15 Yeah, no worries.
00:12:17 But I think it was, if I'm right, it was Clement of Alexander,
00:12:20 And it was his view that the reason why sons of God, the Sethite view, the sons of God were the line of Seth, was not so much because, you know, in the New Testament, believers are called sons of God, but because of the genealogy that I believe is the genealogy you already referenced in Genesis 4, that it goes through this line.
00:12:44 or no it might be another one it might be in genesis right before babel um or uh but it goes
00:12:49 you know so and so begot so and so begot and it goes all the way up to adam right so it says you
00:12:54 know seth son of adam and then it says adam son of god and uh and so i've heard some guys within
00:13:00 the seth eye that's nice yeah okay then that's what that's what i'm thinking okay thank you
00:13:03 so so i i think it might i could be wrong about it being clement but um so he's using luke so i
00:13:09 was wrong about that but using luke and then saying all right so here are the sons of god
00:13:13 and you have the sons of men you know cain goes and builds you know the city of man and then you
00:13:19 have um you have adam who is the son of god and this is adam's good and godly line through his
00:13:25 his other son seth and so that that's the biggest argument i've heard of sons of god
00:13:29 but that's that's it but that seems to pale in comparison to yeah so let's let's take it apart
00:13:36 then let's show why it doesn't work um so clement i just looked real quickly clement was a fallen
00:13:40 angel guy oh okay um yep the sethite view didn't come along until a couple hundred years after
00:13:45 maybe i'm just thinking of augustine that could be yeah augustine clearly held the sethite view and
00:13:50 pretty much once he promoted it that's what it that was the dominant view in church history up
00:13:56 until about 100 years ago augustine does have that effect he does yeah i burned out on augustine
00:14:03 during my doctoral program i had a whole class just oh 5 000 pages of reading and 50 pages of
00:14:09 writing that was that's too much august at least for me some people really like him and i'm yeah
00:14:15 he was smart i'll say that but um so the default the the sethite view some problems um one you're
00:14:23 forced to change the meaning of the of the word man multiple times in that passage sense of six
00:14:29 one through four so when men began to multiply on the face of the earth and daughters were born to
00:14:33 them okay clearly that's mankind in general in verse one and then in verse two it says that the
00:14:39 sons of god saw the daughters of men suddenly it doesn't refer to the daughters of men that were
00:14:43 just talked about in verse one it only refers to one line just cain well what about the other lines
00:14:48 from adam adam and eve had other sons and daughters genesis 5 4 says so why are we why are we limiting
00:14:53 it to just two lines and why would those marriages you know believer marrying unbeliever why would it
00:15:00 produce the nephilim giant offspring when believer and unbeliever don't do that today
00:15:05 and have not historically as far as we know why would these men in the line of set that they're
00:15:14 godly which the bible never said they were other than enoch who walks with god and noah who walks
00:15:19 with god noah's father lamech you can probably uh make the case you know he's longing for rest
00:15:26 from the curse that the front of the ground that god had cursed um so there's an acknowledgement
00:15:31 there so there's an assumption right under the top that all of these guys are godly there's an
00:15:35 assumption right under the top that all the people on cain's line are ungodly when it the text doesn't
00:15:39 tell us that clearly cain was and clearly well cain or not lamech tubal cain's father was he's
00:15:46 a polygamist and a murderer um but the the text doesn't tell us those things about those individuals
00:15:52 um one another problem with that is the only line between those two the set the line of seth and the
00:16:00 line of cain the only one that mentions daughters is seth's line over and over every generation
00:16:04 sons and daughters cain's line never mentions daughters it only mentions that son so why would
00:16:10 the daughters of men be from the line that never mentioned daughters um and how do you get the
00:16:16 nephilim on the earth again after the flood if this um if cain's line is gone wiped out in the
00:16:22 flood and suddenly they're back again the sethite view can't account for any of those details and
00:16:28 so i mentioned how they have to change the meaning of the word men um verse one it's it's universal
00:16:34 all men verse two it's just men in the line of cain verse three where god said my spirit will
00:16:39 not strive with man forever he is indeed flesh his days shall be 100 years it's back to all of
00:16:44 men and then verse 4 when this son of god saw the daughters of men oh it's back to just this one
00:16:48 line and verse 5 it's back to all so there's no hermeneutical warrant for doing that what i found
00:16:55 is the the strongest argument for the sethite view or the most popular argument is usually not
00:17:02 a positive argument for the sethite view it's more of a an anti-fallen angel view we don't like the
00:17:09 the idea that angels came in out of this or we don't think that they can do this because maybe
00:17:14 jesus said they can't or whatever reason they give therefore the alternative must be the sati
00:17:19 view and so it's not so much a positive case for their view it's a negative case against one of the
00:17:25 others but they seem unaware that there are other views as well that are not the fallen angel view
00:17:30 such as the royalty view so a an argument against the fallen angel view is not a argument for
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00:19:17 all right so then let's let's talk about the royalty view now uh what what are the problem
00:19:22 problems with that yeah so that's the one that says that the these rulers judges kings thought
00:19:29 they were divine as some ancient near eastern kings viewed themselves you know think of pharaoh
00:19:34 supposed to supposedly the the son of a god and some other ancient near eastern figures were like
00:19:41 that um so their sons would be sons of that god in a sense but um the whole argument that they
00:19:51 took wives and they're bringing them into their harems that sounds bad in english doesn't it
00:19:55 okay they they took wives from whoever they chose well until you realize the rest of genesis
00:20:02 abraham took keturah as wife after sarah died um isaac took rebecca well did he force her into a
00:20:10 marriage or was did she have the choice when abraham's servant went you know to laban and um
00:20:16 she went willingly yeah so it it was just the hebrew idiom for marriage it's it's not saying
00:20:23 that they were forced into this at all they were willing participants uh so the the whole basis
00:20:28 for that view falls apart um it's very questionable as to whether or not there
00:20:35 really were that many um rulers within that area that ever viewed themselves that way it's kind of
00:20:43 common among liberal scholars they they repeat that over and over again and yet a lot of the
00:20:49 arguments they use for it don't the kings don't actually believe that and so there's there's not
00:20:55 much basis for it but this view is gaining popularity among scholars today so the set that
00:21:01 view seems more popular among lay people whereas this one seems to be growing in popularity among
00:21:07 scholars but the earliest mention of this view goes back to about 90 a.d uh late first century
00:21:14 after um after the temple was destroyed you had the rabbis kind of um in a sense i'm gonna say
00:21:23 that i hope i can say this in a way that doesn't seem derogatory but kind of reinvent the jewish
00:21:27 faith in a sense that the temple is no longer there the sacrificial system's out there so
00:21:31 how how does judaism work now that we don't have this and there's some serious reinventing yeah
00:21:37 yeah i appreciate you not trying to be derogatory but um as a covenant theology guy i'm i'm not a
00:21:44 big fan of zionism so uh you will not offend me probably not my audience but go ahead i might
00:21:50 offend myself yeah there you go yeah try not to offend yourself but you're good on this side
00:21:55 but um so at that time actually you had a few different rabbis who who promoted the uh royalty
00:22:04 view or this this divine judge's view and um threatened excommunication for anybody who
00:22:10 held the fallen angel view even though that had been the dominant view in a judaism up until that
00:22:16 time and you can see that in uh so many of the intertestamental period writings all about this
00:22:21 topic and so that's the first time that you had something other than the fallen angel view being
00:22:27 promoted as far as we know i mean among any of the writings that are still i came into play a few
00:22:33 hundred years before the sethite view sounds like okay okay and and with that view again it's just
00:22:38 it's the idea of you've got kings and then these kings you know purporting to be sons of god
00:22:43 and they're taking and it's a forceful taking like this you know uh it's it's polygamous and it's
00:22:48 taking women against their will and and having a massive harem and that's why i said earlier you
00:22:54 know tongue-in-cheek but like the attila the hun theory you know but like that you know still to
00:22:59 this day from what i've heard a lot of people can trace their lineage um to attila the hun because
00:23:05 he had a ton of children um and and but there was there was a an intent behind that it wasn't
00:23:12 only perversion it certainly stemmed from that it was sinful but um but it was it was about
00:23:17 lineage. It was about line. It was about, you know, I am this amazing, renowned, you know,
00:23:22 God, you know, or, or son of a God, you know, I kind of this, this deity kind of, you know,
00:23:27 demigod of a, of a man. And I want, you know, my line to continue forever. And so I'm going to have,
00:23:34 you know, 10,000 kids or whatever. But that, that's the view, right? The royalty view is the
00:23:40 idea is it's not just kings are the sons of god and they had a few offspring but that they were
00:23:47 trying to they were trying to continue forever their their line by having hundreds each individual
00:23:55 king dozens or hundreds of children for one king um through multiple wives right that they took by
00:24:02 force that's the view uh presumably yes okay yeah that you are you're setting yourself up as
00:24:09 the ultimate ruler and therefore you have the right to take these women and have as many as
00:24:16 you want and so it's perverting the created order it's you know that's um one man one woman for life
00:24:23 and um so that would be the great sin um obviously they're not saying that's the only sin before the
00:24:31 flood uh because the whole world is filled with violence and wickedness and uh but that would be
00:24:36 the the primary sin that kind of leads to the the triggering of the flood which is a little strange
00:24:41 in both cases because all those things have continued on after the flood without any sort
00:24:47 of massive judgment like that you've had unbeliever marrying believer you which um doesn't lead to
00:24:54 doesn't yield giants it doesn't lead to a worldwide flood which of course there's not going to be
00:24:59 another one god said there wouldn't but it doesn't lead to massive judgment like that and same thing
00:25:03 with these rulers who have harems it doesn't lead to that sort of so something there seems to have
00:25:09 been something else going on that was far more provocative and um that's yeah that's a really
00:25:16 good point because it's um you know you and i both like we're christians so so we believe that um
00:25:23 that there will be people who, who spend eternity apart from God in, under his white hot wrath and,
00:25:30 and just judgment forever. So like, we're, we're not saying, you know, our view as,
00:25:34 as just Bible believing Christians, that's just a biblical Christian basic view. We're not saying
00:25:40 that, um, that God would, you know, Hey God, that seems rash or that seems a little bit overboard
00:25:44 with a little bit of an overreaction. We're not saying that it would be wrong or unjust on God's
00:25:50 part to to flood the world and and to kill people because all have sinned and fallen short of the
00:25:55 glory of god um but the issue is just but this is unique this isn't something that happens every
00:26:02 other day um this is unique instance and if it's certainly you know people people have always been
00:26:07 depraved people apart from christ were totally depraved even with christ we still have the
00:26:12 sinful flesh and still resides within the members of our being and god is totally just god is
00:26:17 obligated to save no one. And he would be just to destroy everyone. But this particular thing,
00:26:22 that's what really got me thinking, because I always taught it, and you know this, and I know
00:26:28 that you and I, we'd have some differences and you're kind of, it sounds like you're undeclared
00:26:31 and that's fine. I'm not going to try to push you to take a side, but I, you know, we talked on the
00:26:35 phone that I'm a Calvinist. And so for me, you know, total depravity, that's a, that's a tenant,
00:26:40 you know? And so for me, I, you know, it's like when I preached the flood in my earlier pastoral
00:26:45 days, I would, you know, really land the plane on God would be totally just to flood the world
00:26:51 again right now, you know, or I'm, you know, and I'm kind of shocked he hasn't flooded the world
00:26:55 a thousand times, you know, because, you know, that typical Calvinist, you know, big on sin,
00:27:01 you know, slamming, you know, the pulpit. And, but now I think I still stand by that. God would
00:27:07 be objectively just, but it seems like it's more than God just punishing sin because God has,
00:27:14 He reserved a final and eternal punishment for sin.
00:27:18 It seems like there's something, like you said, something unique and provocative, not just polygamy, not just even forceful marriage or rape, and not just intermarriage between one group of people and another.
00:27:35 Because even that, it's funny, if the sons of God are the line of Seth, and it's like, all right, men, do your job and convert these daughters of Cain, you know what I mean?
00:27:43 like disciple your wife and why are they if they're godly why are they constantly marrying
00:27:48 ungodly women right exactly exactly yes occasionally that happens but occasionally
00:27:53 all of them to the point that right and and back to your point earlier we don't have a single 0.99
00:27:59 daughter mentioned in the line of cain i'm sure he had had daughters but um well one of them is
00:28:04 named but never used the word daughter so gotcha the sister of tubal king is not gotcha okay thank
00:28:09 you yeah but but the point is you know it's still it just logically wouldn't make sense if all the
00:28:14 male offspring of of seth are marrying all the you know the the daughters of you know then you
00:28:20 know what's happening to all of seth's daughters do they just not get married or or you know by
00:28:25 force i guess they have to marry you know all the sons okay so it just doesn't make my point is um
00:28:29 it seems like something provocative i like the way that you said that something sinister terrible
00:28:34 is happening that is has never really happened since or or maybe kind of but something you know
00:28:42 something very unique that god is not just punishing but it's a protection he's wiping
00:28:47 something dangerous off the map what would yeah can you so can you just talk about that a little
00:28:53 bit about what so what is it so now i think we're ready for the fallen angel view what what is it
00:28:58 that you think was actually going on yeah so the terminology that's used in that past is the sons
00:29:04 of god i mentioned before bnei elohim that's the hebrew it's used in a few other places you have
00:29:10 it in job one verse six where it says there came a day when the sons of god that's the term came
00:29:15 to present themselves before the lord and satan also came among them same thing in verse chapter
00:29:19 two verse one almost word for word uh it's when satan goes before for god and they're talking
00:29:24 about job and what can be done and then it's also used in job 38 7 uh when it talks about how the
00:29:30 morning stars sang together and the sons of god shouted for joy so it's used right there talking
00:29:35 about creation and it's before man so that term doesn't refer to mankind it's referring to some
00:29:42 sort of heavenly being in that passage um and they're they're paralleled in you know hebrew
00:29:48 poetry you know so much of it is based on parallelism with the morning stars so it's
00:29:53 angelic beings are both being described here. The other place it's found, other than Genesis 6.2
00:29:58 and 6.4, is in Deuteronomy 32.8. And there you have, in a lot of our English Bibles, they say
00:30:05 sons of Israel rather than sons of God. And you'll see a little note that says the Dead Sea Scrolls
00:30:12 and has sons of God, B'nai Elohim. The Septuagint, the Greek translation, always had angels of God
00:30:20 there or the or sons of god um and for some reason the masoretic has sons of israel but the context
00:30:27 doesn't make any sense for sons of israel it's talking about when god divided the nations at
00:30:31 babel israel didn't exist yet he says he divided them according to the number of the sons of god
00:30:36 not israel and so that passage uses uses that as well and there's very similar terminology in the
00:30:44 psalms talks about the b'nei elim sons of the mighty and it's referring to angelic beings i
00:30:49 think that's in uh chapter psalm 29 and the other one i think is 89 maybe 87 off the top of my head
00:30:56 i'd have to look at the book again um so all of that terminology in hebrew very clearly referring
00:31:02 to angelic beings now when you read the passage um what it's if you think about the context so
00:31:11 we're told about the the fall in genesis chapter 3 god promises that there's going to be the seed
00:31:18 of the woman who's going to crush the head of the serpent. And then from that point on, you see
00:31:24 corruption, you know, take hold of the world. And you see it presumably getting progressively
00:31:31 darker and darker until the time of the flood, when the thoughts of man's heart were only evil
00:31:35 continually, and God was grieved that he had made man. But something was going on at that point.
00:31:42 Genesis 6 tells us at the beginning that the sons of God saw the daughters of men. So
00:31:47 women in general heavenly beings and they took wives from whoever they chose 0.84
00:31:53 and they had children with them well verse four tells us who those children were it says the
00:31:59 nephilim were on the earth in those days and also afterward and and we'll get into this i think
00:32:04 probably our second session we want to deal with this more but the key word in that whole passage
00:32:10 if people understand this next word that sons of god or i'm sorry the nephilim were on the earth
00:32:14 those days and also afterward this next word is so key whenever the sons of god did this now most
00:32:21 english translations will say when the hebrew word there is asher and you can look at our hebrew
00:32:26 grammars they will tell you that that word in this construct that should be used or should be
00:32:33 translated as whenever so whenever the sons of god did this that's when the nephilim were on the earth
00:32:37 so the nephilim are the offspring is what that passage is telling us the other views will say
00:32:42 now maybe giants were already there when this happened it just because if it's just the word
00:32:46 when it could be that they're the offspring or maybe they're just already around and it's very
00:32:51 ambiguous you don't even know why it's mentioned but if it's translated properly and the word is
00:32:57 whenever now we understand exactly what that passage means when versus whenever makes a big
00:33:02 difference yeah yes it does um and so what's so something awful is going on there's a it seemed
00:33:10 to be a corruption of of humanity um and perhaps that's what the goal was i think there might be
00:33:17 another goal as well um at least maybe for the women um so for the rebellious angels their goal
00:33:26 maybe is to corrupt that line so that to cut off the messiah yeah yeah so the messiah can't be the
00:33:32 seat of the woman in a sense you're gonna be the seat of a of a rebellious angel because you're
00:33:36 saying they knew right they knew the promise that god had given you know wrapped up in the curses
00:33:40 that are dealing out and you know into the serpent that that you know put enmity between you know
00:33:44 your offspring and the woman and um her offspring and you and and uh he will you know strike your
00:33:49 you will strike his heel but he will crush your head and so you're saying that these these fallen
00:33:54 angels they were very clear on that they were very aware and so it might have been a ploy to try to
00:34:00 say like well we know that eventually there's going to be and you could even say with that i
00:34:05 feel that you could even say that maybe you know satan possessing the heart of cain to murder his
00:34:09 brother thinking well maybe abel is it maybe he's the seat you know maybe it's a first generation
00:34:14 kind of thing and so by possessing you know sin crouching at your door you know desires to have 0.98
00:34:19 you genesis 4 it's like a two birds one stone situation i can corrupt cain and kill abel you
00:34:24 know and then but then god is gracious and gives seth and oh we got to do something about seth's
00:34:28 line now and so yeah back to you yeah i think that's exactly right and and what would be now 1.00
00:34:35 i'm going to speculate a little bit more on this part as far as the the the women you know why 0.99
00:34:41 would they take part because the the wording there is not that they were forced into this they were
00:34:45 willing participants uh and you know a lot of people they react strongly to the whole idea they
00:34:51 think oh why would women marry demons or something that's how they think like these medieval toady
00:34:57 wordy horns you know forked tail all that kind of um think thor think um i think something more
00:35:06 like that um and so from because satan manifests as an angel of light and his ministers can do the
00:35:13 same thing so um they're not going to appear as these horrible awful things from so from just a
00:35:19 physical perspective that nobody's going to look at that and say that's gross um of course spiritually
00:35:24 speaking we would look at it and say that's that's awful that's uh that's abominable but um i think
00:35:30 there's something else that may be going on there um because man originally was created to live
00:35:37 forever and it's not until they eat the fruit that now they're going to die they're kicked out
00:35:42 of the garden so they can't eat from the tree of life and live forever um but what if you if so
00:35:50 consider a woman at that point what if she marries somebody who doesn't die and has offspring with
00:35:56 somebody who doesn't die what would the offspring be like could they maybe live forever and so
00:36:04 what's right in the middle of that passage about the sons of god in the nephilim verse 3 of genesis
00:36:09 6 the lord said my spirit will not strive with man or remain in man forever for he is indeed
00:36:14 flesh that his days shall be 120 years originally man's supposed to live forever but then they sin
00:36:20 then their days are cut to like the 900s nobody as far as we know breaks a thousand
00:36:25 um so god gives them a long time to live but look how wicked they became look at how sinful the
00:36:32 earth became and god said really you're going to try to cheat this okay 120 now and you see a steady
00:36:37 drop from Noah's time, 950, Shem 600, all the way down to Moses, who's 120. And since Moses,
00:36:45 nobody lives 120, as far as we know, except for Jehoiada, the priest, lived 130. 1.00
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00:39:02 Can I run something by you real quick on that, Tim? So I think that's a fine possibility. I've
00:39:09 leant towards the interpretation that when that was said, it was approximately 120 years. So not
00:39:18 just each individual man is not going to live 900 years anymore but eventually we're going to work
00:39:23 down to where the lifespan of a man each individual person is around 120 or less years but instead no
00:39:29 mankind in general you've got 120 years the clock is ticking until i flood the world uh so like kind
00:39:36 of like god like speaking about the nephilim um that like my spirit will not abide in man forever
00:39:41 these terrible things are taking place and so um i'm i'm going to wipe out um all these men um and
00:39:50 and i'm going to do it in approximately 120 years when noah finishes the ark project i'm sure you've
00:39:56 heard that view what are your thoughts on that yeah yeah and that's a a well-known view there
00:40:01 are a lot of people who hold that um i i don't it's hard to demonstrate that from the text that
00:40:07 that's really what's in view uh i think it's plausible it's certainly not um it's not i don't
00:40:13 think it's ruled out just by reading that verse certainly god could have made that pronouncement
00:40:17 120 years prior to the flood um but it never tells us who he spoke those words to so we don't know
00:40:24 that it was spoken to any man it could have been inter-trinitarian dialogue or we were talking
00:40:28 before the show maybe something within this divine council um you know the heavenly throne room if
00:40:34 you will um and he's just saying man's become so wicked i'm going to cut their days short they're
00:40:39 not living this long anymore um i guess you could hold out the possibility that it's both he happened
00:40:44 to do that 120 years before the flood and it also refers to the lifespan being reduced um but um i
00:40:52 don't think noah was building the ark for 120 years because in genesis 6 um beginning around 18
00:40:59 uh i think it is at verse 18 maybe 19 where god tells noah and he's telling him to build the ark
00:41:04 he says i'm going to make my covenant with you your wife your sons and your son's wives with
00:41:09 you so it sounds like the boys were already grown up and married when god said we'll start building
00:41:13 the ark um so i think i don't think that he starts building the ark at that point well but well that
00:41:20 my thought is that uh that that the the statement was made uh at 120 year mark and then noah is
00:41:28 commissioned with his grown sons to begin building, you know, young sons, but, but adults to begin
00:41:33 building the arc, you know, maybe 20, 30 years later in the arc is this 90, a hundred year
00:41:37 project, but, but it was spoken 20, 30 years. So anyways, that possibility, but back to your
00:41:43 point, I, cause I like this cause you're in your book, you're very technical. I mean, that's the
00:41:48 beauty of it is there's a lot of stuff that you can, you know, you can check out, you can listen
00:41:51 to this podcast, you can watch this video, you know, and, and I like, I like this stuff. I'm a
00:41:55 sucker for it. And it's fantastical. It's awesome. But a lot of it's fiction. And what you do is
00:42:02 really, I mean, you stick to the script, namely the scripture. But that said, if I can get you
00:42:08 from time to time to speculate, I probably will because I'm a sucker for it. So back to real
00:42:13 quick, your speculation about that maybe you're basically what you're saying is that maybe these 0.92
00:42:18 women, their incentive that it was a willing marriage with these fallen angels and their
00:42:21 incentive was that they they knew um that death was was in their future and thinking is is there 0.99
00:42:27 a way that we can somehow get man to live forever like almost like us like trying to transhumanism
00:42:34 or like uploading conscience to the cloud or cloning or so is it something like that yeah i
00:42:40 think so i mean not the same right not the technology angle but just the whole idea i mean
00:42:45 I like to talk about it this way. The thing humanity has desired more than anything else
00:42:53 throughout history, our greatest desire is to cheat death, to live forever. People have tried
00:42:59 and tried and tried, and then they can't do it because God's told us they're not going, well,
00:43:03 we are going to live forever. We know that, but not the way they're thinking. And what's really
00:43:08 interesting is the our greatest need is that we need forgiveness from our holy creator because
00:43:15 we've rebelled against him and we we deserve his judgment his wrath so our greatest desire
00:43:20 live forever our greatest need forgiveness what do you get in the crucifixion or resurrection of
00:43:24 jesus you get both you get our greatest need and our greatest desire and it's god knew knew all
00:43:33 about us isn't it um so yeah i think that's i again speculating i think that was probably the
00:43:39 thought process of some of the women maybe it was more of just a wow there's thor i'm not saying
00:43:45 actually thor i'm just saying think the movies you know chris had a good looking it's not a
00:43:49 he's not he didn't look like a demon right right a thor um but not a marvel version he's not a
00:43:55 right he's he's like he looks masculine and he actually has masculine views yeah and there's a
00:44:03 well even um what's the other guardian of the galaxy of peter quill who is a you know star lord
00:44:09 he's a he's a son of a god according to this yeah yeah you're right you're right um or from flip it
00:44:16 around um if you remember the movie bedazzled with elizabeth hurley playing the role of the devil
00:44:21 you know tempting brendan fraser's character well yeah of course if that's going to happen
00:44:25 the devil would appear as beautiful very attractive beautiful yeah yeah so uh that if
00:44:32 so right away people are kind of grossed out by the fallen angel view but they're not thinking
00:44:36 about it properly and i know some people probably are watching thinking wait jesus said they can't
00:44:41 do this or what about let's address that objection trust me i i've heard that before
00:44:45 a lot of times you know i've written a book that's almost 500 pages and people will call
00:44:51 up to me and say yeah but jesus said they can't like you've never seen that verse in the bible
00:44:56 oh my goodness 500 pages down the drain i never knew exactly yeah so let's address that yeah so
00:45:04 i've got five chapters worth of objections in this book to the fallen angel view because i
00:45:09 including some that most people have never even heard of because i've i've over you know 10 years
00:45:14 or so of research and studying on it i heard a lot of them and i try to include everything that i
00:45:19 could um and so did jesus say that fallen angels can't do that well in matthew 22 30 that's where
00:45:24 they always go you have that passage where um the sadducees come before jesus and they say hey there
00:45:30 was this woman who married this guy and he dies she marries the you know her his brother marries
00:45:36 her then he dies and you know so on and who's she gonna be married to and you know in the afterlife
00:45:42 Of course, Sadducees didn't believe in that anyways. 0.98
00:45:44 They're just trying to trap Jesus and saying how ridiculous it is.
00:45:48 So he says, you err because you don't know the scriptures or the power of God. 0.64
00:45:51 And then he says that for in the resurrection, they neither marry nor are given in marriage,
00:45:58 but are like the angel of God in heaven.
00:46:01 And so people look at that passage and they say, see, the angels don't marry.
00:46:04 Or angels can't marry is what they say.
00:46:06 And it's like, no, that's not what it says.
00:46:07 jesus says the angels of god in heaven do not marry but the holy angels don't marry that's all
00:46:15 it says they he never says the ones who left their proper abode like jude 6 talks about the ones who
00:46:21 left heaven and are in rebellion he never says what they can or can't do he just says what the
00:46:26 one that the ones in heaven don't do that right so right yep no that's that's great yeah i feel
00:46:32 like it's almost anticlimactic because it's um it's a huge objection and then you answer that
00:46:40 objection and you're like i was waiting for the zinger but the answer is short because it's it's
00:46:45 so such an easy objection to answer at the end of the day it's like yeah so angels don't do that
00:46:49 in heaven uh but rebellious angels that hate god and are not in heaven jesus doesn't say anything
00:46:57 about them it's not not that complicated right and what's even um what's really interesting in
00:47:03 luke's version of that passage jesus says for in the resurrection they neither married nor
00:47:07 given a marriage but are um are what is it that are equal to the angels and are sons of god
00:47:14 so in a sense it's almost like you're giving a little nod to the fallen angel view that yeah
00:47:20 they're sons of god um now i'm not i want to use that argument by itself and say see my views right
00:47:25 that but it is perfectly consistent and it's interesting that he uses that wording
00:47:30 that we when we're equal to the angel then we're sons of god now so he's not he's not saying we'd
00:47:36 be yeah he's not saying we become angels just right yeah yeah but yeah but i don't even understand
00:47:42 that but i know it's it's similar to where you know like uh you know the son of man like you
00:47:47 made him a little lower than the angels for now you know like um but the same that there's going
00:47:51 to be, you know, there's this exaltation, there's a glorification in our future for those who trust
00:47:58 in Christ. Okay, so that, yeah, that's really helpful understanding, okay, so angels, as far
00:48:03 as we know, there's nothing biblically that would eradicate the possibility of fallen angels who
00:48:10 have left their heavenly abode actually taking wives, human wives, and being able to procreate
00:48:15 with them. We'll get into this a little bit in a future episode, but I am just a little bit curious.
00:48:22 You kind of talked about it, but is it multiple incursions in terms of the Nephilim being there
00:48:28 after the flood? How does that work exactly? You don't believe, I see some guys say like,
00:48:33 well, the Nephilim, they built rafts, you know, or they went under the ground. And I'm just like,
00:48:37 and for me, the reason why I don't like that, and I'm all down for a good story,
00:48:40 but not a good story at the expense of God's word. But the reason I don't like that is it
00:48:44 subjects god to to failure it's like like i mean if you're gonna flood the the world you know if
00:48:50 you're gonna go you know i mean that's a big deal to flood the world that you love god god loves the
00:48:55 world it's it this is good um i feel like from what i can tell from the bible about the character
00:49:01 of god if he's gonna flood the whole earth for a particular purpose he's not gonna miss
00:49:06 you know what i mean right yeah well peter tells us only eight people survived and through which
00:49:12 eight soldiers eight soldiers spared in the ark um everybody else perishes that world perished
00:49:17 and the nephilim are identified in genesis 6 4 as mighty men of old men every now they're they're
00:49:24 human um even though i believe that they are you know their fathers were angelic beings they're
00:49:30 still they're still human um the the offspring are the nephilim are um so i don't think they're
00:49:36 surviving the flood at all now this is a i think this is a problem for the sethite view a big
00:49:42 problem for it i think it's a big problem for the uh royalty view how do you get the nephilim on
00:49:47 the earth again after the flood because they're clearly there numbers 13 33 tells us that the
00:49:52 nephilim were in the land now some people will look at that and say well that's just the spies
00:49:55 they're lying about it actually the narrator tells us moses tells us about 10 verses earlier
00:50:01 he names three of them that they were in hebron that um he talks about uh the anakim being there
00:50:07 and the anakim are of the nephilim so you have a hymen shishai and talmi the the three that are
00:50:13 named um so moses the narrator tells us that they're there the spies weren't lying about the
00:50:19 nephilim being in the land they were using that fact to try to scare the spot the rest of the
00:50:25 people to not go in and there's a lot more to that passage that i think we'll talk about in another
00:50:29 episode i've got a whole chapter a bad a bad report does not necessarily mean a lying report
00:50:34 it means a um distrustful in god and his promises report like a negative just like you go to the
00:50:41 doctor and you can get a negative report uh but that doesn't mean he's lying he could say i'm
00:50:46 sorry to tell you this but you have terminal cancer and it's like well i heard something
00:50:51 similar 17 years ago you have leukemia yeah well there you go that was a bad report but it was true
00:50:55 right and i'm going to be told me amen um okay well that's yeah that's great and we'll get into
00:51:01 it uh so the goal is for if ever any listener who made it to the end of the episode the goal is that
00:51:05 we're going to do four parts and um basically you know some of the notes i looked at your table of
00:51:10 contents and trying to map it out we've talked a little bit in preparation but um if we can we
00:51:15 want to try to talk a little bit more about the nephilim returning and and if there's multiple
00:51:20 incursions and how does this happen? And what about, you know, it seems like the fallen angels
00:51:25 were locked in gloomy dungeons. So how did they get out or were some locked in gloomy dungeons
00:51:29 and then another batch fell? So talking about how were the Nephilim on the earth again? So that'll 0.97
00:51:34 be our goal, I think, with episode two. And then maybe we'll get into episode two, but we want to
00:51:39 do at least in two or episode three, a full episode on just the giants. You know, just talking
00:51:45 about the Anakim, the Raphaim, you know, different classifications or tribes of giants and different
00:51:52 time periods. I would love to just pick your brain with, you know, okay, so the days of Noah,
00:51:56 but then, you know, Moses and Joshua and David and Goliath, and so talking about those kinds of
00:52:01 things. And then if we can, we'll try to do a fourth episode that's a catch-all. And so tune
00:52:07 in. If you haven't subscribed to our channel, hit the subscribe button, hit the bell, you'll be
00:52:12 notified whenever we come out with more content. The catch-all episode, we're going to talk about
00:52:16 evil spirits assaulting women. Does that still happen today? Were these spirits imprisoned?
00:52:22 When were they imprisoned? Are all of them imprisoned? Were there female giants is a
00:52:27 question that you address in your appendix. And so those are the things that we'll try to hit in
00:52:31 the fourth episode, but I think it's going to be great. Any final word, Tim, that you want to leave
00:52:36 the listeners with on on this topic of just who are the nephilim yeah the one thing i guess i
00:52:42 would stress about the book is i mentioned earlier so many of the articles and and now
00:52:47 especially on youtube so many of the videos get into this speculative or highly speculative and
00:52:51 fantastic things and uh link it with all sorts of end time scenarios that was not the goal in this
00:52:57 book at all it is let's have a very sober serious bible study on this topic and explore every single
00:53:03 angle that you can you can think of and uh so that that was what i attempted to do and uh i believe
00:53:10 i believe i accomplished that i'm sure there's things that could be stated better or maybe
00:53:15 there's things that uh need to be expanded at some point but um yeah you asked real quickly
00:53:21 about was there another incursion and we hinted at it a little bit but um yeah when that word that
00:53:26 says whenever the the nephilim were on the earth in those days and also afterward whenever the
00:53:31 sons of God did this that that's the clue um and so yeah I believe there was another one and I think 1.00
00:53:38 leave that as a um teaser for the next one yeah no and that's why I got you on the show because
00:53:44 this is this is not a pamphlet this is a gargantuan you know book and uh and the reason why I'm
00:53:51 reading it um and the reason why I wanted to get you on the show is because I I wanted to um
00:53:56 everything you just said you you said you know I wanted to give a serious biblical treatment to
00:54:00 this topic. And then you said, you also said, you know, some people, you know, are speculative and
00:54:05 they get, you know, get into various scenarios and end times. And Tim, I'm one of those people.
00:54:10 I will do that. I think it's fun to do that. But, but I wanted to have you on here because I,
00:54:15 I don't want to just do a video where I say, well, this is my view of the end times. And this is how
00:54:20 I think, you know, things, you know, all things, Nephilim, you know, work into the equation.
00:54:24 Those are fun things. I try to give caveats whenever I address it and say, okay, this is
00:54:28 speculation. This is my thought. This is what the Bible for sure says. This is my thought.
00:54:32 But I'm excited about doing a four-part series with you because this is not going to be
00:54:37 your typical YouTube. If you look at something that has 1.7 million views on YouTube about the
00:54:43 Nephilim, it may not be super accurate. But this, I'm hoping, will be one of the most accurate
00:54:48 sources that people can use and refer back to several times. Because some people will read
00:54:53 the 500-page book, and some people in our culture today won't. But they'll hop on YouTube,
00:54:57 and they'll be able to see your book in interview form.
00:55:01 And I hope it'll be a blessing to a lot of people
00:55:03 to get really highly accurate information.
00:55:06 Yeah, well, thank you for that.
00:55:08 And when I say speculative,
00:55:10 I'm okay with speculating too.
00:55:12 I have a whole chapter called Giant Speculations
00:55:14 that actually has to do with the spies and the giants,
00:55:17 which I think we'll talk about in the later episode.
00:55:19 It's a really fun chapter to think about how other places
00:55:23 where we might read about something very similar
00:55:25 actually about what happened as a result of that. I think that's interesting. I have a chapter
00:55:30 toward the end, I think it's the last chapter before the appendices talking about arguments
00:55:34 that we shouldn't use. And I'm not necessarily opposed to all the things in that chapter, but
00:55:39 so many times when people are talking about this issue, it's all about, well, we found these giant
00:55:44 skeletons in the US, but the Smithsonian came and took them and it's like, okay, well, even if that
00:55:49 were true, and I'm not taking the stand one way or the other, who cares in terms of what does the
00:55:55 bible say well it's got to be in the text yeah exactly uh and so there's there's other things
00:56:01 out there or that the nephilim have to be back to fight against jesus when he returns like what
00:56:05 what or or the whole idea of the fallen angel view comes from the book of enoch well i don't
00:56:10 think i mentioned the book of enoch till like chapter 10 when and it's just in the mix of a
00:56:13 whole bunch of other jewish writings from the intertestamental period that held this view so
00:56:17 no it's not based on that that book um so just yeah that's there's a whole bunch of those types
00:56:24 the things that i want to uh dispel or at least avoid and say look you can have a serious study
00:56:30 on this topic that that deals um that deals carefully with the text hopefully faithfully
00:56:36 with the text and um and then what is still fantastical and i think that's the beauty is
00:56:43 it like what i want christians to see is you don't have to make stuff up out of thin air
00:56:47 thin air um okay that we are designed we are a people that um there's something in us especially
00:56:53 as men, where we kind of want dragons to be real, just because we've got a sneaking suspicion
00:56:59 that we were made to slay them.
00:57:01 We kind of want to know that giants really were real, that God placed us in a world where
00:57:06 there's real good, and there's real evil, and there's real powers at work, and that
00:57:12 we're caught up in this incredible cosmic battle for the glory of God, for king and
00:57:18 country and you know that knights and shining armor and like boys grow up wanting those things
00:57:23 to be real and and so i think it's important first and foremost what what is true what does
00:57:28 the bible say but um the reason why we're doing this is to say um no like we we live in a magical
00:57:34 world um there are incredible things um and and i think materialism you know it's it's um
00:57:41 it's not that we're disenchanted um i've heard some people joe rigney says this it's not that
00:57:46 we're disenchanted since the Enlightenment, but this is actually the enchantment. It's a dark
00:57:52 enchantment. It's a dark enchantment that Darwin and materialism has just dulled our sense of
00:58:00 wonder. And I want Christians to see that you can have wonder, and you can have wonder faithfully
00:58:07 without being ridiculous. You don't have to be ridiculous to think about dragons and giants. 0.98
00:58:14 so amen amen all right well thanks so much for coming on the show and i look forward to episode
00:58:19 two all right i do too thanks for having me
00:58:22 join douglas wilson dr joseph boot brian sauve eric khan and myself on march 1st
00:58:34 2nd and 3rd for our 2024 conference it's called blueprints for chrissidom 2.0
00:58:40 Go and visit rightresponseconference.com to register today.
00:58:45 We hope to see you at the conference in March.