The NXR Podcast - THEOLOGY APPLIED - Pastors Who Won’t Rebuke Women Are Pastors Who Hate Women ｜ with Eric Conn

00:00:00 All right, listen, guys, I get it. Many of you are unable to financially support this ministry

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00:00:40 Pastors who refuse to rebuke women are pastors who hate women. Feminism is one of the chief 0.98

00:00:46 causes of fatherlessness. If we truly want to protect children, then we must esteem fatherhood.

00:00:52 and if we want to esteem fatherhood, then we must destroy feminism. And if we are to successfully

00:00:59 destroy feminism, then pastors must stop hating women in their churches by treating them as though

00:01:06 they are nothing more than sinless victims. So in this episode of Theology Applied, I'm privileged

00:01:12 to have back on the show Eric Kahn, host of the Hard Man podcast and the King's Hall to discuss

00:01:19 this vital topic. Tune in now.

00:01:22 Applying God's Word to every aspect of life. This is Theology Applied.

00:01:32 Well, welcome back to another episode of Theology Applied. I am your host, Pastor Joel Webin with

00:01:36 Right Response Ministries. And in this episode, I am privileged to have as my special guest,

00:01:41 Eric Kahn from a whole host of different realms. He is from Hard Man Podcast, the primary host

00:01:47 there. He's also on the King's Hall podcast. He is also one of the staff members and leading

00:01:53 founding members of New Christendom Press, which hopefully by God's grace puts out great

00:01:58 Christian theology for years to come. And are you currently an officer at your church, Eric?

00:02:06 Yeah, that's right. So this last year I was a pastoral candidate. And then I think it was

00:02:13 mid-December I was officially installed as a pastor here at the church. Great. And then do

00:02:21 you guys have, you know, because I know that you've all embraced Westminster view of the

00:02:25 covenants and paedo-baptism, but do you guys, with you and Dan and Brian, do you have the

00:02:32 traditional Presbyterian model of a bifurcation of like teaching elders and ruling elders,

00:02:37 or is it just pastor as a pastor? Yeah, no, pastor as a pastor. So typically it'd be like

00:02:43 considered like in the CREC, we would have called it like a two office church is, uh, is how it

00:02:48 functions. It is worth mentioning too. We have two guys, both named Kevin and they are, uh, also

00:02:54 pastors here. They are 1689 guys. So we have three who are, uh, you know, Pato, Pato Baptist.

00:03:03 And then we've got two guys who are credo and, uh, we have a lot of fun with that, but, uh, it is,

00:03:09 it's been good we're in a unique situation with utah because of uh the mormonism that surrounds

00:03:15 us so we've kind of said no we're gonna we're gonna fight together on this one and and uh learn

00:03:20 how to be friends no that's great yeah i i didn't know about the two other guys because i always

00:03:25 think of you and brian and dan with the king's hall and so i knew that all three of you and brian

00:03:30 was the last to come along that he he kind of held to the uh the pascal position that's where i would

00:03:34 be in the 1689 realm. But I didn't know that you had two other elders, Kevin and Kevin.

00:03:40 Yeah. Yeah. You hear less from the Kevins because they're, one is a general contractor here in

00:03:46 Ogden. And then Kevin Love is the headmaster of St. Brennan's, but they don't have as much

00:03:53 media exposure, I guess you could say. Yeah. You guys just won't let them get it,

00:03:57 that media exposure because they're Baptist. You can't have that. 1.00

00:04:01 that's right all right well our topic for today uh you know you guys with kings hall you just

00:04:07 started a brand new season your second season with that podcast dealing with uh father uh

00:04:12 fatherlessness and the need for uh fathers and um i can only assume you know me and nathan were

00:04:18 joking about this my assistant before we started recording but i can only assume that perhaps you

00:04:22 know season three would be like how to be more productive and plotting along like you know my

00:04:28 life for yours you know with bright heart and then your father hunger so i just feel like luckily

00:04:33 doug wilson is prolific and he's written you know close to 100 books you guys like what what season

00:04:39 what podcast would you do next you'd be out of material yeah no that's that that's exactly right

00:04:44 we uh we are very much relying on doug uh to continue his writing and uh we we gratefully uh

00:04:50 will rip off his ideas and uh you know continue to push those yeah and and in your defense doug

00:04:57 even admits in his My Life for Yours that he ripped that idea off of going through each room

00:05:02 of the house. I forget the guy that he references. So every idea is coming from someone who took it

00:05:08 from someone else. Any idea really worth having. So you're in good company. I quote Doug all the

00:05:14 time. So today we want to deal with that fatherlessness. We have an epidemic in our

00:05:19 nation today. And sadly, the evangelical church in many ways doesn't necessarily seem to fare

00:05:24 better. And so, yeah, I just want to talk about that. And I thought, you know, we could begin,

00:05:28 you and I were talking as we were prepping a little bit, we could talk with root causes.

00:05:32 Why is there so much fatherlessness in society today? Yeah, it's a really good question. A lot

00:05:38 of it, I think, is, it's really interesting societally in America when you look at, say,

00:05:42 like the 1960s. So how much changed in the 1960s? You've got a number of things. Lyndon Johnson

00:05:49 with his, you know, Papa Big Government Acts that went through Congress and were passed

00:05:55 in the 60s, those had a huge bearing on the welfare state, which had a huge bearing on

00:06:00 really replacing fathers. 0.90

00:06:02 And you see this, especially in the black community.

00:06:05 Before the 1960s, black fatherlessness was actually at a lower rate than among the white

00:06:11 community.

00:06:12 So but post welfare state, then you have fatherlessness soaring.

00:06:17 And I think you can make an argument, Thomas Sowell and other people have certainly made this argument, that the black communities were being targeted for a lot of the welfare. And again, we've seen this play out. They're trying to court voters, all this sort of thing. But you see this thrust and this push for the state really to replace the father.

00:06:37 Even today, you see it with stuff like Black Lives Matter in that, you know, obviously 0.87

00:06:41 affecting the black community, but Black Lives Matter, they're against nuclear families. 0.82

00:06:46 But originally, when all that stuff became prominent in 2020, the one thing that they

00:06:50 were especially against was fatherhood.

00:06:53 So they would talk about non-nuclear families.

00:06:56 They really did not appreciate this idea of any sort of patriarchal father figure of the

00:07:03 home.

00:07:03 So again, the state is designed to replace that.

00:07:05 I think you also have a lot of legal factors. 1964, you have Ronald Reagan, and you've got

00:07:13 the really first divorce laws going through with the no-fault divorce. So 1964, Reagan is the

00:07:21 governor of California. He passes that. Most people are usually shocked, by the way, when you find out

00:07:26 that was Reagan. He would go on to say it was one of the things he regretted doing, and probably as

00:07:31 a conservative for a really good reason. But fundamentally, what you've had because of those

00:07:36 legal changes, it's very easy to divorce your husband. You see it in the red pill and sort of

00:07:42 the men going their own way movements today, right? Where they're starting to recognize like,

00:07:47 you know, why is it that a wife can cheat on her husband? She can leave him, take the children, 1.00

00:07:52 and he has to pay for the whole thing. He may not actually even, you know, biblically righteously,

00:07:58 he may not be at fault at all, but he's still going to bear the burden. I think some of those

00:08:02 things have certainly impacted culture. And then I think at the church level, you can look at that

00:08:07 and you can say, well, you really have, this is the way I look at it. Okay. In Exodus, you have

00:08:13 the golden calf and you have Moses. There's an apostasy that happens. And then immediately the

00:08:19 people fall into sexual immorality. Well, I mean, you can look at the 1960s, that's the sexual

00:08:24 immorality, but there was an apostasy that happened first in America. And you can see this 0.63

00:08:29 in the post, you know, and we call them the greatest generation, but I think they were

00:08:33 already struggling. And the result is 1960s, the boomer generation, really well known for the,

00:08:41 you know, breaking down of traditional sexual mores in society. And so all those things too

00:08:46 are contributing to, you have skyrocketing rates of children being born out of wedlock,

00:08:51 really a huge factor in the breakdown of the family.

00:08:56 Right. What do you think some of the reasons were for this apostasy that kind of really did happen

00:09:02 before the boomers with the greatest generation? My suspicion is that part of it just had to do

00:09:08 with seeing such atrocities in the world and just thinking, how could there be a God? Do you think

00:09:12 it's deeper than that? Do you think that that was one of the major factors that they just didn't

00:09:17 have a full-orbed theology for dealing with sovereignty of God and suffering or those

00:09:23 kinds of things?

00:09:25 Yeah, I think it's a couple of factors.

00:09:26 Number one is post-enlightenment thinking certainly was coming to fruition, right?

00:09:30 It had been around obviously for a while, but I think really coming to fruition and

00:09:33 you're seeing the long-term fruits of it start to come out of World War II. 0.90

00:09:38 So I think that's a huge part of it.

00:09:40 But I also think World War I in particular, when you unpack what was going on in that

00:09:45 war. You really had Western Christendom foolishly going to war with each other. So before we have

00:09:52 Mao and Stalin and Hitler and Mussolini and all the fascist communist dictators who take over the 0.55

00:09:58 world, before that, you have really cousins in England and Germany, Prussia, and then also 0.82

00:10:04 in Russia going to war with each other. And you've got Christendom slaughtering each other

00:10:08 on the battlefield for fundamentally stupid reasons. This is why in this time period, 1.00

00:10:13 It's a cataclysmic shift because it's really the undoing of the West that comes out of World War I. 0.61

00:10:19 And I think that legitimately shook a lot of people's faith. 0.84

00:10:24 This is one of the reasons, it's usually one of the biggest critiques of post-millennialism that we find, right,

00:10:31 is because of what happened in World War I and II, people say, you know, post-mill theology is dead.

00:10:37 You know, the dream of Christendom really came crashing down.

00:10:40 And so we would obviously disagree with that, but I think we do have to acknowledge the world in many ways came unglued during that time period.

00:10:50 And so what we're living with today is really like, you know, kind of the aftermath of World War II, what was established since then.

00:10:57 You can see a lot of it even in, you know, American politics and American dispensationalism with the eventual founding of the state of Israel.

00:11:04 And then, you know, I grew up with this in Disby churches where it's like, you know, we're flying Israeli flags on our front porches and stuff like that.

00:11:13 So I think that just shaped a lot of it.

00:11:16 And I think, quite frankly, if you talk to a lot of the greatest generation, they didn't really have good bearings.

00:11:23 You're like 50 to 60 years after the Civil War for a lot of those guys, which is kind of hard for us to fathom, right?

00:11:31 That they also lived through that period.

00:11:33 That was a very disruptive period. Calvinism was dying. This is one of the other arguments that I've made, is that patriarchy and Calvinism go together. And with the rise of Unitarianism in America in the 1800s, you really saw Calvinism and Puritanism waning. And those were the things that were holding society together, particularly the nuclear family.

00:11:56 Right. Yeah, no, I agree with that. I mean, just from my personal pastoral counseling, anytime there's an objection or a hesitancy or just a fear of wives submitting to husbands and patriarchy, I've always noticed that it goes hand in hand. 1.00

00:12:14 And it's usually the person who doesn't like Reformed theology.

00:12:19 Believe it or not, not everybody in my church is a Calvinist.

00:12:22 Most are, because I'm fairly outspoken in that regard.

00:12:26 It's a systematic way of theologically thinking that's going to influence everything that I,

00:12:32 every text that I cover, Reformed theology is there.

00:12:37 But there are individuals who aren't persuaded by Calvinistic doctrine.

00:12:42 And often that's the same individual who struggles with patriarchy.

00:12:47 And I think of what, I believe it's Peter that he talks about,

00:12:51 and you are her daughters, speaking of Sarah, who called her husband, Abraham, her lowercase l, lord, master, the head, her head.

00:13:00 And he says, you're her daughters if you do likewise, if you follow in her example.

00:13:06 But then he goes on and says, and do not fear anything that is frightening.

00:13:10 And one of the things that I think gives us peace, whether we're a man or a woman, we all have someone, human authority placed by God in our lives that we have to submit to, to varying degrees, according to the word of God.

00:13:23 And to know that there's a Lord of Lords, right?

00:13:26 Abraham was, you know, when you think like, who are these Lords that Jesus is Lord of, right?

00:13:30 He's King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

00:13:32 Well, he's King of earthly Kings and he's King of earthly Lords.

00:13:35 And one example of an earthly Lord is a husband.

00:13:37 And to know, you know, as a wife, that there's a Lord over this Lord who loves me and who is sovereign over this lesser Lord, my husband, and guiding him, you know, that causes the fear associated with the commandment to submit to your husband to not be so daunting, you know, that you don't have to fear that which is frightening.

00:13:59 But if you don't believe that God's sovereign, then yeah, it's like, well, I know my husband. I know his flaws. I know his weaknesses. And so at least in no other way, I see a correlation there. Is there another correlation that you're referring to, Calvinism and patriarchy?

00:14:17 Yeah, no, I think that's right. And then I think too, like you'll watch like, uh, you know,

00:14:24 Caddy Stanton and the other ladies who were pushing early wave feminism, which a lot of

00:14:27 people mistakenly today are like, Oh, first wave was fine. No, it really wasn't. Um, you look at

00:14:33 their theology and their background, those women were sincerely trying to replace male pastors, 0.98

00:14:38 um, slowly granted. Um, but yeah, so they come on the scene, they're pushing feminism 1.00

00:14:45 and you can read their writing

00:14:47 and the thing that they hate is Calvinism

00:14:49 because, you know, it's kind of like the reaction

00:14:53 you would see people having to God's sovereignty, right?

00:14:57 When people first come in, introduced to that doctrine,

00:14:59 it's like, oh yeah, you know, man's responsibility,

00:15:02 God's sovereignty, they get really frustrated.

00:15:04 You can see it in them, but it's the same thing

00:15:06 when you're talking about patriarchy

00:15:09 and you're talking about submission.

00:15:11 Like just look up in the Greek in Ephesians 5,

00:15:13 What does submission actually mean? It means somebody's in charge and somebody isn't. It means hierarchy, a number of those things. But it's also interesting. I think the connection also would be that you ask what has caused fatherlessness? Feminism.

00:15:29 I mean, feminism has been a cancer in the bones of the nuclear family, and it's something that I think today in the church especially, instead of addressing that and calling that out, what pastors have done is said, like, okay, let's do the Tim Keller. 0.60

00:15:44 Let's try to make a way for them to coexist, you know, which fundamentally has been like, you know, if you or I were to say, well, maybe I can just live with the cancer.

00:15:53 Maybe it won't destroy me.

00:15:56 Right.

00:15:57 Yeah, how to live with cancer.

00:15:58 Yeah, the third way, you know, Keller approach has been, that in itself has been a plague on modern evangelicalism for quite a while.

00:16:07 So the rise of feminism, and I think we could probably root, you know, no fault divorce within the larger banner of feminism.

00:16:14 And then, you know, you said that with feminism, there was this simultaneous thing happening of like, there's this, this aversion towards patriarchy, but also the, you know, the turning away from classically reformed doctrine and an aversion towards Calvinism.

00:16:31 And do you feel like any of that had to do with, you know, I always think of Charles Finney and the, you know, the second Great Awakening that wasn't so great.

00:16:38 I mean, his systematic theology, I've read bits and pieces of it.

00:16:42 I can't read the whole thing because I, you know, my IQ would plummet and I would no longer be qualified to be, you know, a husband or a father or a pastor.

00:16:49 So, you know, you can't read too much Finney and still be sane.

00:16:52 But the little bit that I have been able to stomach, I mean, the guy was just a quack. 1.00

00:16:57 Like he was, he was, and he was a God hating, like not just, he wasn't just stupid. 1.00

00:17:01 He was wicked. 1.00

00:17:02 He was a wicked man. 0.97

00:17:03 And so, um, just hated the word of God and, uh, and twisted it and tweaked it every chance 0.95

00:17:08 he got.

00:17:09 And I feel, I feel like, you know, because the first great awakening is like, you've

00:17:12 got, yeah, you've got the Wesleys, you know, but you've got Whitfield and you've got, you

00:17:16 know, Edwards and, you know, um, it, it seems like with that rise of decisionism, emotionalism,

00:17:21 um, this emphasis on man and his will and his choices seems like a lot of that can't

00:17:27 came in the second great awakening. And I'm sure we can find traces before that, you know,

00:17:31 going all the way back to the enlightenment. But do you think that has anything to do with it?

00:17:35 Some of the Charles Finney stuff? Yeah, I absolutely do. I think it's huge. And then

00:17:40 kind of later influence, but Billy Graham, I actually, believe it or not, Joel, I tortured

00:17:47 myself by reading Jesus and John Wayne. And one of the interesting things about that book that I

00:17:54 think it may be the only thing that is historically accurate in the book, um, is kind of her

00:18:00 description of how Billy Graham bought, he really brought mass communication to Christendom.

00:18:05 And, but that ended up being the death of Christendom and the rise of like the big fast

00:18:09 and famous mega church movement, like everything in mega church movements that we see today.

00:18:13 And we think it, oh, this is so cool.

00:18:15 It really was Billy Graham.

00:18:17 And I think that that culture has so dominated.

00:18:21 Well, the main thrust of Billy Graham was, well, if we're going to appeal to all of America through like a TV crusade type thing, then we have to gear our content so that it's ecumenical, which means, you know, we kind of have to water things down.

00:18:36 We have to focus on, quote unquote, core doctrines.

00:18:39 So Billy Graham is really, he's an early form of like gospel centered types of ideology where let's just focus on the main thing, everything else, let's kind of ditch it.

00:18:49 And I think slowly that's just the watering down of Christendom and of Christianity in America. It makes it susceptible to things like feminism, right? To the point today where like even the conservative movement as a whole, even the part that would call itself, you know, mainline Christian. 0.52

00:19:07 And I mean, you know, we, we've kind of said this over and over again. 0.95

00:19:12 It's like, they're, they're kind of limp wristed and impotent because they, they don't want

00:19:16 to unleash scripture.

00:19:17 They don't want to go to headship and patriarchy and hierarchy and all the things that we find

00:19:21 there.

00:19:22 They're like, well, you know, let's let women work and maybe they can be pastors, but you

00:19:28 know, let's, but, but, but slowly the, the ground gets eroded and it's like, well, what's

00:19:31 left?

00:19:32 Uh, not, not a whole lot.

00:19:35 Right.

00:19:35 Yeah.

00:19:36 You're absolutely right.

00:19:37 I think, you know, it's funny, but fundamentalism, and I know you agree with this because I've heard you talk about it, but, you know, a lot of different phrases that we could use, right?

00:19:45 So the theological minimalism, you know, or the just whittling down to the lowest common denominator, you know, this idea of here are a few doctrines and we're going to defend, you know, these five or six doctrines because the, you know, the church is under attack.

00:20:02 The Christian faith is under attack. And so we need all the fighting men we can get to link arms and preserve, you know, what is most precious. And it's, you know, what's most precious? Well, you, you know, you could, you could print it on, on a track, you know, it's, it's, you know, it's about, you know, 350 words. And that's what's most precious. And that's what we're going to defend.

00:20:22 And, um, and so you, you let go of all these other things, but it's, um, it's, it's, uh,

00:20:28 it's a faithless strategy.

00:20:29 It's too conservative.

00:20:30 It's too, um, well, it's not, you know, it's fearful.

00:20:33 Uh, it's, it's almost like, uh, if you think of, you know, the battle of Helms deep, you

00:20:38 know, and it's like, all right, like, well, you know, this wall has been breached fall

00:20:42 back, you know, to the inner wall.

00:20:43 And then we're going to fall back again.

00:20:45 Um, well, you know, there is a time for a tactical retreat.

00:20:48 I do think that there is a biblical, you know, basis for that, employing that strategy.

00:20:55 But at the same time, you don't want to fall back too soon.

00:20:58 Sometimes it's like, you know, like one orc, you know, just barely, you know, climbed over

00:21:03 the wall and we're like, fall back, you know, and it's like, wait a second, like, why are

00:21:08 we surrendering all of this ground?

00:21:10 Because what we don't realize is that, you know, you fall back, but what just happened

00:21:15 is now this whole wall is breached, and that whole portion of the city, of the kingdom,

00:21:20 all of its resources, all of its weaponry, all of its strengths, all of its advantages,

00:21:27 tactical advantages, are now in the hands of the enemy. And so I think in some ways it was just,

00:21:33 whether it be apathy, theological and just spiritual apathy, or whether it be

00:21:38 cowardice, but probably a little bit of both, but falling back too soon and surrendering some

00:21:44 of these things and say, well, it's okay. We can, you know, we can write it off. Like, yeah,

00:21:48 it's a compromise. Yeah. It's a surrender, but God will be pleased in the end because we've

00:21:52 preserved what God cares about the most, you know, we're gospel centered. And then gospel

00:21:56 centered just becomes a euphemism for really, um, gospel myoptic. It's only the gospel. Um,

00:22:03 it's gospel. I, I, you know, I've stopped using the phrase to describe myself, which is a shame

00:22:07 Because on its face, it's a good phrase.

00:22:12 And in the technical sense, I am a gospel-centered Christian.

00:22:16 But I no longer use it unless I have time to offer, you know, like a 15-minute disclaimer.

00:22:21 Because gospel centrality has been steamrolled into gospel myopticism.

00:22:28 And the best way I could illustrate it is it's basically become the young, reformed, and restless, you know, hip way of saying I'm a red-letter only Christian.

00:22:36 that's you know and and here's the thing the red letter christian who's like just give me the words

00:22:41 of jesus not the words of paul not the words you know like as a you know it's only the words of

00:22:47 jesus that are actually from jesus you know and then this was all you know it's not inspired by

00:22:51 the holy spirit but the funny thing is the red letter christian is actually in a better spot

00:22:55 than than today's gospel-centered christian because at least the red letter christian with

00:22:59 the words of jesus that includes both law and gospel because jesus actually gave commands

00:23:04 Whereas like today, the gospel-centered Christian, it's not like, take the red letters from Jesus and then go ahead and divide that by about 10.

00:23:13 You know, because I mean, Jesus, so much of what he said was about hell and about money and about greed.

00:23:19 And these are the commandments of God, not one jot or tittle, you know, will pass away.

00:23:23 Heaven and earth will pass away before this law.

00:23:25 Like Jesus loved the law and he preached the law.

00:23:28 So, I mean, even the Sermon on the Mount, you know, what's, you know, percentage of those three chapters in Matthew are only gospel, you know?

00:23:38 And so gospel-centered has basically, if you wanted to, you know, define it in real clear terms, you're looking at probably maybe 1% of the Bible.

00:23:48 So when someone says, I'm gospel-centered today, most of them, not all of them, because some of them still use the phrase and they mean it in the way that I do or the way that you do.

00:23:57 But a lot of them, I would say more than half, if they say I'm a gospel-centered Christian,

00:24:04 what they're essentially saying is I'm a Christian who believes about 1%, 1% to 2% of the Bible.

00:24:10 Yeah. 0.86

00:24:11 You think that's fair?

00:24:12 Yeah, I think it is fair.

00:24:14 Like you're saying, it just becomes this great watering down.

00:24:18 And then I think that becomes the problem.

00:24:20 like you could even see this in the 60s where the church because they had gone in many ways

00:24:27 fundamentalist um you had a lot of the fundamentalizing you know let's build around

00:24:33 core doctrines well what comes in the early 60s you've got the birth control pill

00:24:37 which is just like a small meteor that becomes enormous and leaves it like an earth-wide crater

00:24:44 now but it was i think because the church if you're going to say we just have core doctrines

00:24:49 well, is conception a core doctrine or the Bible's teaching on conception? For those people,

00:24:56 the answer would be no. And so it was kind of like, well, yeah, fertility and fruitfulness,

00:25:01 don't worry about that. It's not the gospel. And really what they mean is soteria. It's not

00:25:07 the doctrine of salvation. And I think that becomes a problem though, because look at the

00:25:14 church today. I mean, they're not equipped to deal with the sexual issue. That's been the core

00:25:19 front of the battle um i think i was listening to uh you probably saw this on twitter but like

00:25:24 you know there were more videos of jd greer talking about how like the christian church

00:25:29 needs to be the safest place for somebody to come out as transgender and i was like jd what are you

00:25:34 i mean if if you had been taking a theologically maximal position and you had read cover to cover

00:25:43 and you've been studying this issue like most faithful pastors should have been for the last

00:25:48 couple of decades or even a decade, then you're going to know that there's, there are actually

00:25:52 clear answers to this. Um, but yeah, that's the state of the church. And for the record,

00:25:58 the church should be the safest place, um, for somebody to, uh, cause what we're saying is to 0.53

00:26:03 come out as transgender or to come out as, you know, LGBT, you know, QIL, LMNOP, you know,

00:26:10 whatever it is. Um, it's, the church should be the safest place. Cause what we're talking about

00:26:16 is is a place to confess sin so the church should be yeah if you have repentance in mind

00:26:22 but first when exactly when you say coming out what do you mean by coming out um that should

00:26:28 mean confess sin because this is objectively sinful according to the word of god even the

00:26:32 desire concupiscence even the desire is sin and then when you say what do you mean when you say

00:26:37 safe um safe in the sense that like um it's the place that when sin is confessed comes alongside

00:26:43 you to help you mortify your sin by grace so that your soul doesn't go to hell? Amen. Yeah,

00:26:50 the church should be this. But what you mean, JD, when you say the safest place to come out

00:26:54 is you don't mean safest for your soul eternally when you confess sin by helping you put it to

00:27:01 death. You mean the place that will affirm your sin. This should be the place that won't correct

00:27:06 you, that won't disagree with you, that won't say anything that's going to hurt you or offend

00:27:13 you or any, any of these, you know, and we know that's what he's saying. We know that that's what

00:27:18 Andy Stanley is saying. We know that, you know, the, the pastor, that the clips have been going

00:27:22 around, you know, in the Twitter verse, uh, from, you know, Rick Warren's church, you know, saying, 0.98

00:27:26 well, I don't, I don't know if, you know, two gay dudes, if two sodomites are married. Um, and then 0.98

00:27:31 all of a sudden, you know, they become converted and they start going to your church and they ask

00:27:34 one of the pastors for counsel, like, should we get divorced? Well, God hates divorce. That's a

00:27:38 hard one that's man that's a toughie you know and you were never married right it's just yeah

00:27:43 exactly you were never married you know um and and he throws in you know he throws in the issue

00:27:48 of polygamy you know and says well you know what what about when you're doing you know evangelism

00:27:53 and and an islamic country you know and a man has five wives you know and then he comes to christ 0.54

00:27:58 um do you tell him you know like to divorce four of them do you which which one does he get to

00:28:04 keep you know or is he bound to keep the first and the other four were illegitimate and and even that

00:28:09 is something that like we we just we're too bashful right we're too we're too embarrassed by the word

00:28:15 of god to be because there's a clear answer to that in my opinion the answer is that man is a

00:28:21 christian his wives they are now a christian household his wives need to confess and obey

00:28:27 the gospel and confess christ as lord they need to train up their children the fear and admonition

00:28:32 of the Lord and he can't be an elder. And you don't say that this was right or that he should

00:28:37 do it again. But the difference is it's a category difference. Two dudes aren't married. It's not

00:28:45 marriage. We can talk about all the flaws with polygamists, that marriage and the flaws that 1.00

00:28:50 Abraham shouldn't have married Sarah's servant. That was a bad move. Lamech is the first example 0.99

00:28:56 of polygamy in the Bible. And he's not a great guy to emulate his example. He's not. But 0.98

00:29:02 But the fact that we can't even detect a difference just shows us how far down the rabbit hole of perversion we've gone.

00:29:12 Any other thoughts on that?

00:29:14 I've got some other questions.

00:29:15 Go ahead.

00:29:16 Yeah, just kind of wrapping that all up. 0.99

00:29:18 I would just say what we need to see a lot of times as Christians is that, okay, all the promotion of homosexuality, 0.68

00:29:24 all the promotion or the even desensitization that is going on so that you watch so much Will 0.98

00:29:31 and Grace or you know about it in the culture, it's in every movie, so that your gag reflex

00:29:36 becomes desensitized. We have to fundamentally understand all of that is a war on fatherhood.

00:29:42 It's a war on families. It's a war on God's order and structure. They'll try to make you believe

00:29:48 that two dudes who purchase on the black market a child and then fly home with him,

00:29:53 that they're doing a loving, familial, fatherly thing.

00:29:56 They're not.

00:29:57 And so I think we just need to continue to point that out

00:30:00 and see that all these gross forms of perversion of fatherhood

00:30:05 are just direct attacks, on the other hand.

00:30:08 We have to see that all of it is they're trying to destroy,

00:30:12 ultimately, the fatherhood of God

00:30:13 and the order that he's created in the world.

00:30:16 So the bent is chaos.

00:30:18 And then again, as Christians, we have to oppose that satanic push

00:30:23 from the enemy amen yeah the the attack when it really comes down to it it's an attack not on

00:30:29 fathers but the father the father of life yes from whom all blessings come from and who all

00:30:34 earthly fathers flow from and ultimately their authority resides with him there's no inherent

00:30:39 authority human authority it's all vested authority that comes from god and because god is immortal

00:30:44 um and you know no one can he dwells in brilliant light unapproachable light he's you know he's

00:30:50 invulnerable. Nobody can get God. So Satan always attacks his image bearers and fills the heart of

00:30:55 wicked men and wicked women to attack his image bearers, right? If I can't take out God, I'll take

00:31:00 out the next best thing. And so you're absolutely right. So there's the whole issue of theological

00:31:07 minimalism, fundamentalism in all the wrong ways. We're not using fundamentalism to say,

00:31:15 A guy who believes in six literal days of creation and a young earth.

00:31:20 I'm one of those guys.

00:31:21 I'm pretty sure you're one of those guys.

00:31:23 Yeah.

00:31:24 We're both Christians.

00:31:27 Yeah, that's right.

00:31:29 Amen.

00:31:30 So when we say fundamentalists, we're not talking about guys who just believe the Bible.

00:31:35 We're talking about fundamentalism in the sense of guys who have truncated the Bible into four or five things.

00:31:41 And so that theological minimalism, that lowest common denominator, you know, and the rusting, eroding away of a robust, you know, Christian theology, that was an issue.

00:31:55 And then, you know, you're saying the greatest generation and, you know, feminism, and that's where feminism came in.

00:32:02 All these things are different contributors. 0.97

00:32:05 No fault divorce was one of the things you mentioned.

00:32:07 all the multiple multifaceted, you know, attack on fathers and fatherhood has been on decline.

00:32:15 So all that being said, where are we at now? You know, one of the things that we were talking

00:32:19 about before we started recording is just some of the statistics now, you know, in terms of like

00:32:24 how much, how rampant divorce really is. And when it comes to divorce, you know, because what I

00:32:30 continue to hear people, you know, do, you know, the classic, you know, Mother's Day sermon is,

00:32:34 you know, thank God for mother's father's day sermon is, you know, do better men. You're,

00:32:38 you're lousy. And, and so, um, still to this day, when you think of divorce and these kinds of 0.99

00:32:43 things, like most pastors and most Christians, they think, yeah, men are adulterous, you know, 0.98

00:32:47 and they, their porn habits and, you know, and, and yeah, men are sinners. Men need Christ. Men 0.99

00:32:53 need to man up and, uh, and to repent and to lead in repentance and all those things. But that's, 0.70

00:32:58 um, I just feel like we're not addressing the problem because we're just not willing to look

00:33:02 at the cold, hard facts. We're not willing to live in reality. And the reality is that men

00:33:08 are sinners, but women are sinners too. And some of the statistics are very unfavorable towards

00:33:14 women. Can we look at some of those? Yeah, you're absolutely right. And I think

00:33:18 it's because it creates this environment where we just give women a pass on everything. So 0.97

00:33:23 I think there's sort of like a, you know, we talk about, I have talked about with Michael

00:33:27 Foster, like vintage foolishness, right?

00:33:30 Foolishness that matures generationally and gets worse over time. 0.99

00:33:34 I think this is certainly true on the women's sin because it hasn't been dealt with. 0.99

00:33:40 So yeah, I mean, these statistics go against everything that you find in the mainstream

00:33:45 media, but you've got 70% of divorces in America are initiated by women, 70%.

00:33:53 That is an astronomically high number. 0.94

00:33:56 70%.

00:33:57 Yeah. 70% of women are initiating divorces. And then this is a really interesting kind of subset 1.00

00:34:05 of this. When you go to college education, so college educated women initiate divorce at a rate 1.00

00:34:12 higher than 90%. Okay. So just to make sure that people don't miss that, because this is 1.00

00:34:19 staggering. So you're saying across the board, out of every divorce that happens in America,

00:34:23 70% of those divorces

00:34:26 in married couples in America

00:34:28 are initiated by the wife

00:34:29 not the husband 0.97

00:34:30 but the wife 0.67

00:34:31 and so that leaves 30%

00:34:33 so that means

00:34:34 70 is over two times

00:34:36 so every time you see

00:34:37 a divorced couple

00:34:38 you've got 1.00

00:34:40 for every one of those

00:34:42 you've got almost

00:34:43 two and a half times 1.00

00:34:44 the chance that the woman 0.59

00:34:46 is the one who initiated

00:34:47 that divorce

00:34:47 not the man

00:34:48 and then you're saying

00:34:49 for women who are

00:34:49 college educated 1.00

00:34:50 that it's over 90% 0.99

00:34:53 So over nine times, yeah, but it's just, you know, men need to be better and women are

00:35:01 great, right?

00:35:02 Yeah.

00:35:03 And that's kind of what's interesting about it is like, okay, so you go to the Matt Chandler

00:35:06 stuff, you know, Jesus wants the rose.

00:35:09 He's just the stuff that we kind of laugh at, but yet it's still predominant in the

00:35:14 churches where, you know, I know it's different at our church.

00:35:17 I'm sure it is at yours as well, but you know, we're actually preaching to women and saying,

00:35:22 hey, you have to deal with the sins that are particular to women, and here's what they are. 0.94

00:35:28 Here's the ways that you're prone to sin against your husband and nag him and on and on the list 0.99

00:35:33 goes. So we address that, but the culture at large doesn't. In fact, what we're told, 0.79

00:35:39 there was a good book by Christina Hoff Summers. It was called The War Against Boys.

00:35:44 And it goes back to the mid-80s to present day. And it's basically talking about how the whole

00:35:49 education system is like the world is slighted in favor of men and women are always getting the

00:35:55 short end of the stick. But then she goes through and she unpacks that and she's like, it's the 1.00

00:35:58 opposite. The opposite is actually true that women are favored at every turn. And so here's a female 0.59

00:36:04 author saying that and saying, no, no, that literally like the entire school system is set 1.00

00:36:09 up so that women can succeed. And as a result, boys, men are suffering. So yeah, I think that

00:36:16 So what's the long term of all of that? Well, I think that there's a lot of men who feel

00:36:23 this sort of black-pilled feeling of like, what am I supposed to do about this? The system is

00:36:28 rigged against me, right? We had the case of Jeff Younger in Texas. I don't know if you were

00:36:33 following this, but his wife wants to make their son transgender. And Jeff was like, absolutely not.

00:36:39 And it goes to court and the judge is like, no, not only is this going to happen,

00:36:44 uh, Jeff, you're not allowed to talk about it. You know, this is like, so as men, it's easy

00:36:50 to understand why a lot of us, a lot of men would feel totally just silenced and feel a pretty great

00:36:57 sense of oppression. Right. And real quick, just to go back for a second, I completely agree. And

00:37:03 we'll keep moving with that because there's a lot to unpack, but to play the devil's advocate for

00:37:08 anybody who would counter, you know, with the earlier statistics that you just presented,

00:37:12 you know, seven across the board, 70% of divorce is initiated by women. And then when it comes to

00:37:17 college educated women who are in marriage that ends in divorce, it's over 90% of the wife who

00:37:24 initiated that divorce, not the husband. One of the counters that I frequently have heard from

00:37:28 people is they'll say, you know, because I'm aware of those statistics and people say, well, the

00:37:33 reason why women initiate divorce more than men is because men are physically stronger. And so

00:37:38 divorce, leaving, abandonment, physically retreating from the marriage is the only 0.98

00:37:44 course of action that a woman has at her disposal. Whereas the man doesn't feel as much of an urgency 0.94

00:37:51 or a need to get out of the home and get out of the marriage because he's physically superior to

00:37:56 his wife. He's not physically threatened. And so, you know, the real reason why women are divorcing

00:38:01 their husbands, you know, several times more than husbands are divorcing their wives is because

00:38:07 there's domestic violence in the home, there's physical abuse, and that's always the guise.

00:38:13 So we talked about this a little bit before we started recording. Can you read the statistics

00:38:17 on that, Eric? Yeah. And Joel, you're absolutely right. There is domestic violence in the home.

00:38:23 Unfortunately, for the people who make that argument, so this is from one study,

00:38:27 it says that 70%, 70% of domestic violence in relationships is perpetrated by the women.

00:38:35 yeah so again it's not like a you know and the men 49 split here and the men yeah that's the

00:38:43 yeah that's the other thing they found is men are much less likely to go to the authorities

00:38:49 or anybody else and say yeah my you know my wife my girlfriend whatever has been she's been beating

00:38:54 me but 70 percent that's high yeah that's high so 70 so this is the same statistic as divorce 0.89

00:39:02 So 70% of women across the board, whether that's the average of college educated, non-college educated, across the board, 70% of women in America who are married, who get divorced, 70% of them initiated that divorce. 0.53

00:39:16 And then when it comes to domestic violence, if there's domestic violence in a home, in a marriage between husband and wife, again, it's 70% of the women who initiated that violence.

00:39:25 And you and I have both, you know, you know, talked about this and not not with specificity, not sharing events, you know, particular events or certainly not sharing names.

00:39:35 But both of us over the years in pastoral ministry have dealt with couples within the church and not just within, you know, J.D. Greer's church, you know, but within, you know, true gospel preaching churches like yours and mine.

00:39:49 we've dealt with married couples where um where it's it's the wife who is physically assaulting

00:39:56 her husband and i've i've had to deal with those cases and and it's really challenging um to be

00:40:03 just just practically you know telling the husband you you must get out um you you must physically

00:40:07 you have to run um and and when you run here's another thing like you can't push her because you

00:40:13 people don't understand how much stronger men are than women. You cannot, you cannot push her

00:40:20 even just to try, because I've dealt with cases where, where the, the husband has been cornered,

00:40:26 physically cornered back into a bedroom in the home and she's blocking the door. Um, and then

00:40:32 she's, you know, throwing things at him and beating and hitting him. And it's like, you've

00:40:37 got to get out of there. Um, but you can't push her because I've dealt with those cases too,

00:40:41 where I was just trying to leave and I pushed her and she flew and hit the wall. And dude,

00:40:47 it's a nightmare having to pastor through those kinds of situations. I'll just say,

00:40:54 I'll say it like this. In my pastoral experience, which granted, I'm not 70 years old. I haven't

00:41:01 been doing it for 50 years, but 10 years, give or take, in my decade of pastoral experience,

00:41:07 I've never actually counseled a married couple where the husband hit his wife.

00:41:16 I have only counseled in all the domestic violence issues, which there have been a few. 0.99

00:41:21 It has always been the wife is physically hitting. 0.99

00:41:25 I'm talking about closed fist hitting her husband. 0.97

00:41:28 And the most that a husband has done is pushed her to try to get out of the way to run out

00:41:34 of the house.

00:41:34 um that's yeah it's that it's really interesting joel i i've had i can think of a handful right

00:41:42 of guys who were there was legit like you know domestic violence but i would say on the whole

00:41:49 uh my experience in 10 or so plus years it's more than that now but a pastoral council and

00:41:57 that sort of thing i i would say it's it's much more common to see it just doesn't it gets looked

00:42:03 down on as, oh, it's not a big deal. But it's like, again, wives who are throwing things, 1.00

00:42:07 slapping, hitting, that sort of thing. It happens surprising number of times. I think for most 1.00

00:42:14 people would be shocked to know how much that's happening. But it's also interesting. I was

00:42:18 talking to a pastor who's in his seventies now, sort of at the retirement age, kind of seen it

00:42:22 all across the last, you know, 30, 40 years of ministry. And he said to me, he said, you know,

00:42:27 it's weird because when like 35 years ago, he said it was almost always, it seemed like

00:42:32 predominantly like kind of deadbeat guy come on get it together um you know and the ladies are

00:42:38 like you know sweet ladies like standing by i'm kind of you know oversimplifying this uh but he

00:42:44 said you know it's it's amazing in the last 10 years he said how many times i'm i'm dealing with

00:42:49 women who are just like you know what i'm not emotionally fulfilled i'm leaving him and he said

00:42:56 it's interesting how many of the guys is like it's he's a good guy yeah he's not you know a

00:43:01 character from a Christmas Prince on Netflix or something, but he's, he's providing, he's,

00:43:07 he's meeting all the basic needs. You know, he's taking the family to church, but, um, it kind of

00:43:13 goes to the, um, I think it was last year or the year before, you know, Adele, the singer, she

00:43:18 leaves her husband and she goes on Oprah and Oprah's like, why did you leave your husband?

00:43:23 And she said, well, you know, I just wasn't a hundred percent happy all the time. And so I

00:43:29 decided to leave him. And Oprah said, you know what, honey, that is such a powerful story for

00:43:33 women today. And I'm sitting there thinking like, this is horrible advice. I mean, shamefully

00:43:40 arrogant, self-centered. Nobody is telling them that the reality of that situation, right? That 0.96

00:43:46 you're destroying your own life. You're destroying your children's life. You're wrecking this guy's

00:43:50 life because you weren't a hundred percent happy. Well, like who's telling these people this stuff

00:43:55 that you deserve to be 100% happy all the time.

00:43:58 Guarantee you Adele's not 100% happy now after she left.

00:44:02 But again, yeah, I think that you're seeing this trend

00:44:05 where it's like more and more in counseling. 0.86

00:44:08 Yeah, it's actually the women. 0.98

00:44:11 Because those sins haven't been dealt with. 0.66

00:44:14 And with that, just to give a theological disclaimer to the listener.

00:44:18 So when we think in terms of the doctrine of total depravity,

00:44:23 people are totally depraved across the board.

00:44:25 If we were measuring statistics, it would be equal across the board.

00:44:29 We believe, you know, David doesn't just say, you know, in sin did my mother give birth

00:44:33 to me, but in sin did my mother conceive me?

00:44:35 And so from conception, because of the fall, because of the fall of Adam and sin entering

00:44:40 the world, every single human being, all of his posterity has been born with a sin nature

00:44:46 and conceived with a sin nature.

00:44:48 And so when we speak of total depravity, distinguishing that for a moment from utter

00:44:51 depravity, total depravity refers to sin at the level of the heart.

00:44:55 It's speaking of the inward man, meaning that all his inclinations, all his motives and incentives and thoughts are geared towards self and ultimately in rebellion against God.

00:45:08 Romans chapter 8 says the mind of the sinful man, it does not submit to God's law, nor can it.

00:45:15 And so it's unwilling and unable apart from conversion.

00:45:18 And so all people are totally depraved.

00:45:21 So if we're speaking of man, our biblical anthropology, if we're speaking of man inwardly, at the inward level, the level of the heart, all men, and so that would include both men and women, are equally sinful internally. 0.56

00:45:35 at the level of the heart, apart from Christ, from conception, apart from conversion, both 0.73

00:45:42 men and women, old men, young men, black men, white men, women, men, all across the board,

00:45:49 every single human being is equally, totally depraved, equally sinful at the internal level. 0.76

00:45:54 However, to apply an illustration to that, thinking about rearing children and parenting,

00:45:59 Every child is equally totally depraved apart from Christ, but not every child is equally

00:46:06 misbehaved in their outward actions, meaning that internal sin of total depravity does not

00:46:13 necessarily outwardly manifest itself equally with each child. There are better behaved children

00:46:20 and there are worse behaved children. And what makes the difference? This is what I'm getting

00:46:25 to. What makes the difference is not nature, it's nurture. If we speak of this at the nature level

00:46:33 internally, well, every child is conceived totally depraved. But not every child, that total depravity

00:46:40 doesn't equally manifest itself through actions and deeds, behaviors, speech, words, attitude,

00:46:49 all that that varies there's massive disparities from child to child and all of that the distinguishing

00:46:57 factor for that is not nature total depravity but nurture parenting um is the child disciplined

00:47:04 in the way that the bible says they should be disciplined are they loved in the way that the

00:47:08 bible says they should be loved and so my question is going back to because i love the term that you

00:47:13 coined the vintage what was it vintage sin or vintage what yeah vintage foolishness yeah

00:47:18 Vintage foolishness. So just for an individual person, if their sin is left unchecked, if a child is raised in a home where the parents are absent, it's a hands-off, laissez-faire approach. There's no biblical discipline. There's no correction offered. They're allowed to do whatever they want. They're always watching TV. Every time they whine and complain, they get what they want. They're never corrected.

00:47:41 just at an individual level, that child is going to be a monster. And not just at the heart level,

00:47:47 because every person, again, apart from saving faith in Christ, apart from being given a new

00:47:52 heart, we're all monsters at the level of the heart inwardly. But that monstrous heart is going

00:47:57 to be on full display. Now, what happens if it's that vintage foolishness, if it's not just an 0.84

00:48:05 individual child, but that child is not just five years of neglect, of discipline and correction,

00:48:11 But it's 50 years and now they're a grown older adult and not just one individual, but

00:48:19 generationally, right?

00:48:20 What if there was one type of person that they weren't corrected and then they trained

00:48:26 and society trained their posterity not to be corrected and theirs not to be, what would

00:48:32 that be? 1.00

00:48:33 That would be women. 1.00

00:48:34 They're called women. 1.00

00:48:36 That's what it is.

00:48:37 That is what we have done as men.

00:48:39 That's what the church has done.

00:48:40 So I'm not saying we're not responsible.

00:48:41 So my whole point is to say this, we're Calvinists, we understand the doctrine of total depravity, we understand the doctrine of concupiscence, we understand all these different things.

00:48:49 We are not saying that women are inherently more sinful than men.

00:48:53 What we are saying, though, is that in terms of outward manifestations of sinful behavior according to God's moral law, women have been, by and large, less checked by the church for generations, and that has an effect.

00:49:10 Would you agree with that, Eric? 0.90

00:49:12 Yeah, completely.

00:49:13 And in fact, you can find this in books like Leon Podol's book, The Church Impotent. 0.94

00:49:17 But for a long time, like centuries in the church, we've been teaching that women are 0.65

00:49:23 actually, it's the opposite of what we're saying, that women are actually more holy.

00:49:27 Women are more prone to be spiritual.

00:49:29 That's the assumption. 0.93

00:49:31 And you can actually read this.

00:49:33 And I've seen reformed pastors who kind of make statements where it's like, you know

00:49:38 what, if there's sin, it's always the man's fault.

00:49:39 And I think you have to be really careful because we do want to say ultimately the man needs to take responsibility for his household.

00:49:47 But if you, for example, if you approach every counseling situation and you walk into it saying, I don't care what's going on in this house, it's ultimately his fault.

00:49:56 Well, I mean, that's going to color the way you do the counseling.

00:50:00 And I think what we actually need to be aware of is, look, women have been told that they're 0.96

00:50:04 more spiritual, they're more prone, like they have a nature that is not only the opposite

00:50:09 of being more depraved, that they're more holy, right?

00:50:12 They've been kind of the spoiled kid, I think, culturally speaking, for a long time.

00:50:18 And so what's happened is they have that training.

00:50:22 Now, I think what is really cool is that when you get a healthy environment, when you get

00:50:26 preaching that is like Paul's. Like, think about Paul, where he goes through the list of sins,

00:50:31 you know, Ephesians 5 and 6, there's commands, there's commands that are specific to the sex,

00:50:37 meaning, you know, why do we have to tell fathers not to exasperate children? Well,

00:50:41 because fathers are prone to do that. Why do you have to, you know, some people have said this,

00:50:45 why is Paul only say there's a direction for women to be modest? Why isn't there a parallel

00:50:51 passage for men to be modest. Well, because that is a particularly feminine direction of sinning, 1.00

00:50:59 right? Women love to be lusted after. So Paul is being smart. He's saying, look, these are the 1.00

00:51:05 areas where you're prone to sin. And it's the same way if I have three boys and I don't address them

00:51:10 all 100% identically because I have to know the grain of each kid. And so I think in our address

00:51:17 to the people. We have to be the same way. Now today, I think, yeah, you're just going to have

00:51:21 to be realistic and say, you know, women have not been preached hard yet. And so we've got to some 0.95

00:51:28 extent, we've got to correct that problem. That doesn't mean that we're going to stop addressing

00:51:34 men's sins or anything like that. We're still calling men to be leaders in their home and to

00:51:38 take ultimate responsibility. Yes. But yeah, certainly to know the cultural milieu in which

00:51:43 all that's happening. Yeah, that's really good. And I like what you said in terms of like, you

00:51:49 know, Paul addressing one thing with women, and then, you know, it's almost like, you know,

00:51:53 a father addressing one thing with one of his kids, you know, and, you know, correcting one

00:51:57 of them. And then that kid responds by saying, well, you know, my brother, so why don't you

00:52:02 talk to him, you know, and my sister? Well, it doesn't work that way. We're right. This isn't

00:52:09 this egalitarian, steamrolled, androgynous, you know, kind of like, no, God has baked disparities

00:52:15 into the world, hierarchy into the world, differences, diversity, and diversity of

00:52:21 thought, diversity of giftings, and diversity of propensities, and vulnerabilities, and weaknesses,

00:52:28 and that's been baked into the world that God made, and that's, you know, with each individual

00:52:34 person, but also between gender. And so even like with the fruit of the spirit, I remember having

00:52:40 several members of the church when I was pastoring in California, very angry at me because I was

00:52:48 preaching on the fruit of the spirit. And I said that the fruit of the spirit are not genderless.

00:52:56 And I said that, you know, the fruit of the spirit, the fruit of the spirit is the manifestation of

00:53:02 the spirit. But the spirit, the third person of the Trinity, his characteristics, who he is,

00:53:11 manifest differently through a man and through a woman. And so basically what I was arguing is I

00:53:17 was trying to say, you know, when Jesus braids a whip out of cords in John chapter two and starts 0.66

00:53:23 beating people and throwing over the money changers tables, Jesus is modeling for us

00:53:29 perfectly self-control and gentleness. Self-control. So first, the fruit of the spirit,

00:53:36 it's not like a toolbox where I'm going to take out one fruit at a time. I'm going to take out a

00:53:41 hammer for this portion of the project. Then I'm going to put it back. I'm going to grab a

00:53:44 screwdriver. So right now I'm exercising love, but self-control is on the back burner. It's not

00:53:49 really in play. That's not the way that... No, Jesus was full of the spirit. He fully embodied

00:53:56 all of the Spirit, and therefore all the fruits of the Spirit, all the characteristics of the

00:54:01 Spirit were present in the life of Jesus at all times. So that means there was never a moment

00:54:07 where Jesus is not being loving. There's never a moment that he's not being self-controlled. There's

00:54:12 never a moment he's not being gentle, which means I say all that back to bring it back to gender and

00:54:17 the distinctions of the fruit of the Spirit in terms of their expressions in men and women.

00:54:21 And what that means is that apparently a man can, this would be some extenuating circumstances.

00:54:31 I'm not saying he can do it on a daily basis, but apparently it is possible for a man to

00:54:36 make a whip and to start lashing it at people without breaching the fruit of the spirit

00:54:43 that is self-control. 1.00

00:54:44 I don't believe, this is my view, but I don't believe that a woman could ever do that. 1.00

00:54:51 I don't believe that there would be a scenario, right? 1.00

00:54:53 In self-defense, that's different.

00:54:55 But Jesus is, he's the aggressor, for lack of a better word, in this scenario, right?

00:55:00 I mean, the true aggressors are those who are defiling his father's house.

00:55:03 But, you know, he's the one who makes it physical. 0.90

00:55:06 And my point is, I don't think there would ever be a scenario where a Christian woman 1.00

00:55:10 in a godly manner could initiate, you know, I'm going to take a whip into this den of 0.90

00:55:17 thieves and start rounding up the tables. Because men and women, self-control looks different in 1.00

00:55:23 women than it looks in men. Because that's one of the counters that I receive sometimes pastorally

00:55:29 over the years is people say, well, all nine are the fruit of the spirit, which first, I wouldn't

00:55:33 say it's an exhaustive list, but let's just go with that for a moment. All nine are the fruit

00:55:37 of the spirit are given to Christians, period, whether it's a Christian man or a Christian woman. 0.81

00:55:40 So both men and women are called to be self-controlled. Both men and women are called 0.71

00:55:45 to be gentle. And then what I would say is I would go over to Peter, 1 Peter 3, and say,

00:55:50 yeah, but why do you think that this is then reiterated specifically for women,

00:55:55 a quiet and gentle spirit? Well, men are called to gentleness because they're called to the fruit

00:55:59 of the Spirit, and one of the fruit of the Spirit is gentleness. Correct. Men are called to gentleness,

00:56:04 but quietness and gentleness being rooted together and being described as a chief characteristic of

00:56:11 beauty for a woman is different than the gentleness that a man is called to aspire to.

00:56:18 And I think that's a difficult theological concept for people to grasp, especially in

00:56:25 modern church settings where we've just steamrolled it all together.

00:56:30 And so we look at the fruit of the Spirit and we say, there's no distinction whatsoever

00:56:34 for how these are going to be expressed between men and women.

00:56:37 This is just the list.

00:56:38 And then we determine, and this list, if we're really going to be honest, this is more of

00:56:42 a feminine list than it is a masculine list, meaning that the spirit himself, yeah, he

00:56:46 is he, the Holy Spirit, but his qualities are really the qualities that are more naturally

00:56:52 embodied by a woman.

00:56:54 So really, what is the call to a Christian man? 0.90

00:56:57 It's to become more like a girl.

00:56:59 Yeah. 0.95

00:57:00 Yeah, no, I completely agree.

00:57:02 And I think part of it is like, okay, even when in, particularly like you see this in

00:57:05 the Latin. But when you say man, right, veer, courage, it's the same word for courage. So when

00:57:11 you're talking about masculinity and what it means to be a man, there's going to be certain traits

00:57:15 that are pretty intrinsic. This is why Joshua is being told repeatedly, like, have courage,

00:57:19 act like a man, have courage, like on repeat. You wouldn't hear necessarily the same things

00:57:25 said to a woman about what it means to be a woman, right? Like you said, it's generally

00:57:29 gentleness, quiet spirit. And that's because of the marriage relationship and her relationship

00:57:35 to her husband, which requires submission. He's called to lead, which is more of in the bent of 0.73

00:57:40 courage. She's called to submit and to help, which is really more in the bent of gentleness

00:57:46 and a soft spirit. And I would take all this back to those, right? So we're talking about husbands

00:57:52 and the difficulty in marriage counseling and stuff like that. Fundamental question that a lot

00:57:56 of people don't ask is, I was reading a book on modesty by Wendy Shallott. It's a pretty interesting

00:58:01 Jewish lady. And she says in there, though, she's like, every time I see like a woman being a whore, 1.00

00:58:08 I always say to the girl, where's your father? Does your father know what's going on? 1.00

00:58:14 You know, and people are like, oh, you're one of those patriarchy people. And she said,

00:58:18 what's so bad about belonging to someone who loves you? And it really struck me that the

00:58:24 question we're not asking a lot of women is where are their fathers? Who is the father that sent

00:58:30 them to college to live in a co-ed dorm and to fornicate and, and who let the mother give them

00:58:36 the birth control pill on their way out the door. Like, where is dad saying, put some clothes on?

00:58:41 You know, one of the first things that the father does, our father, after the fall into sin is he

00:58:48 sees fig leaves and he's like, no, no, no, you're going to go back upstairs and you're going to put

00:58:51 more clothes on. That is not acceptable. We don't tolerate that. There's, there's rules and there's

00:58:57 order. Well, this is the stuff of fathers. And I've said to the guys in the church here quite a

00:59:02 bit, when Paul tells Titus, there's disorder, there's chaos. And so what do you do in Crete

00:59:10 when you have disorder and chaos? He said, I want you to create order by appointing elders.

00:59:16 What are elders? They're the exemplary fathers in their community. So I've often said fathers

00:59:21 are God's instrument for creating order in a world of chaos, right? You are to rule the chaos.

00:59:28 You are to set boundaries for your girls just as much as your boys. But I think especially,

00:59:33 we talk about how fatherlessness impacts men, but I think so much of the feminism and the 1.00

00:59:39 destruction of society that's been brought on by the female sex, that too could just be traced 0.86

00:59:44 back to, where were the fathers? That's good. Well, so I feel thoroughly discouraged. 1.00

00:59:55 I've discouraged myself. You've discouraged me. We've discouraged each other. And this is kind

01:00:00 of right where you guys have left it with the King's Hall. You've left us in the midst of

01:00:04 discouragement, but I'd like to not do it here with Right Response Ministries. So I'm going to

01:00:08 ask you, I'm going to ask you, you know what, without, you know, without delving into a million

01:00:15 different things, what are just a couple of things that we could end on that would be hopeful? What

01:00:19 can we do? What can we do about this? Yeah. Well, I think a lot of it is, um, a lot of times when we

01:00:26 go into analysis mode, which, you know, I'm prone to do quite a bit, the reason that we have to

01:00:30 realize why we're doing it. And it's really like a diagnostic tool, right? We want to know what's

01:00:35 go wrong, what's gone wrong so that we can fix it. And I think that the other thing that I would

01:00:41 tell people is there's kind of two things that need to happen. One is like, you know, people

01:00:46 are like, yeah, the legal system needs to change. I'm like, okay, well, unless you're going to go

01:00:50 get a law degree and you're a millionaire and you're going to start funding some of these

01:00:53 efforts, I'm not really sure what me personally, I'm going to do about changing, you know, federal

01:00:59 law. It does need to be changed. And we need legions of people who are working on that. I

01:01:04 think that it is very true that, you know, really lawyers, whether you like it or not, lawyers today

01:01:11 are sort of like the front line. That's where the war is being fought. So certainly we need

01:01:15 Christian men and, you know, pushing forward that ball on the legal frontier. That's absolutely

01:01:21 true. But I think for the average guy, I think about this for myself. It's like, okay, again,

01:01:27 Jordan Peterson, clean your room. You know, you're worried about the legal structures,

01:01:31 but you're rude to your wife. You're worried about the legal structures. Well, start with 1.00

01:01:35 yourself. Start cultivating a gentle and quiet spirit. There's so many people I found in the

01:01:41 sort of like men going their own way, red pill, people that would even follow our stuff online.

01:01:48 It's like, okay, you're struggling. You've got the marriage issues. Kids don't respect you.

01:01:53 You're trying to figure this out. Well, okay. So which elders do you submit to? What are their

01:01:58 names? Where's your church? Is it a healthy community? Because honestly, Joel, if you don't

01:02:02 have that, I'm not really sure how you're going to make progress as a Christian being sanctified

01:02:08 in the word of God, because this is really what this comes down to, is people need regenerate

01:02:12 hearts. They need to be consuming God's word day and night. They need to build their life on the

01:02:18 rock, which again is the word of Christ, the law of Christ. We need to be starting there.

01:02:24 And so I think a lot of it is just, it's very, very actually simple, but it's the difficult

01:02:29 work of saying, well, you have to get your own life in order, right?

01:02:32 If you're a father, then you start, just look at the biblical roles for, you know, what

01:02:36 are you actually called to do?

01:02:38 And then you start walking those out and you have men around you, including your pastors

01:02:42 who hold you accountable to it.

01:02:44 And yeah, so I think that's the simplest way that I know to outline that.

01:02:48 What do you do?

01:02:49 And it is hopeful because we've seen it.

01:02:51 I mean, I'm sure you could say the same about your church community.

01:02:53 We can say it about refuge.

01:02:55 I know you can go to Moscow and say the same thing.

01:02:57 Because I've seen people repent, right?

01:03:00 We have pastors who will tell men who aren't working and their wives are, like, you're 0.99

01:03:04 being a loser. 0.98

01:03:06 You're supposed to be a provider. 1.00

01:03:07 What are you doing?

01:03:08 Go get a job.

01:03:09 And we've seen the fruit of it, and it is actually really good.

01:03:14 Yeah, all that is great.

01:03:17 Amen a thousand times.

01:03:18 But let me press on you for just a second, Eric, and then I'll let you go.

01:03:21 We'll close.

01:03:22 you said do start obeying these commands we can't just start you know it's not just top down right

01:03:27 it's not yet some of you may be called to be lawyers some of you are going to run for you

01:03:31 know civil office and these kinds of things and that's good we need christians and politics yeah

01:03:34 we need them in law we need all you know all of christ for all of life yes and amen a million

01:03:38 times every square inch but for most of us you're saying it starts at home just obeying these

01:03:43 commandments in your marriage with your children but then you you said something particular and i

01:03:47 agree with you a hundred percent, but you said, um, none of that's really going to happen. If you

01:03:52 don't belong to a church, who are your elders? Can you name them? Who are you submitted to?

01:03:56 And here's the email that I get all the time. And I know you do too.

01:04:00 Is, um, and, and so I, I, I want to hear from you cause I'm, I'm still kind of making up my

01:04:04 mind. I'm not sure what to think. Cause on one hand, right. So I'm a Calvinist and I'm a post

01:04:08 millennial at the same time, which is, uh, sometimes those two things conflict with one

01:04:11 another, you know, I'm a suspicious, you know, I'm suspiciously hopeful, you know? And, um,

01:04:16 And so I'm not really sure, you know, it's like the two, I've got the post mill angel on one shoulder and Calvin on the other, and I'm not sure who to listen to right now. But I get emails from guys saying, Joel, I agree with you a hundred percent. I cannot, as God is my witness, I've been driving a two hour radius, looking at churches for the last three years. I cannot find one church that would agree with what you and Eric have just said.

01:04:39 if i went in there with my marriage and we were having problems immediately every single church 1.00

01:04:44 i visited it would it would all be my fault there would be no correction towards women 0.96

01:04:48 none of that is in the preaching none of that is in the ethos none of that's in the community

01:04:51 my wife if i do go to church and i take my family to church i risk my wife being further reinforced

01:04:57 in feminism and turned by that church against me uh and and i continue to hear people say that

01:05:05 basically like the the pickings are so slim out there when it comes to godly churches especially

01:05:10 on this issue um that a lot of guys uh it's not like even necessarily just given up there's plenty 0.84

01:05:18 of losers who've given up and just black build and they're just they're out right and so i'm not

01:05:22 talking i'm in defense of the guys who haven't given up who are actually still striving to be 0.97

01:05:27 men but they're like i've got a better chance i'm and uh in leading my wife and protect i have to

01:05:33 protect it not just from the godless culture i have to protect it from churches and uh and and

01:05:38 you know i've got guys moving to our church i know you guys do you know we've got guys coming

01:05:41 from uh multiple people coming from canada who are now members in our church you know and then

01:05:46 and from other states you know from georgia and from um michigan and you know and all these

01:05:51 different things and of course california and oregon and um and they're coming one because

01:05:57 they want to get out of you know godless totalitarian places like canada and california

01:06:02 Oregon, you know, but, but they're also coming, you know, cause they could, you know, they

01:06:07 could, they don't, don't have to go to Georgetown, Texas, right.

01:06:09 There are a few other, you know, more conservative red, red state options that they could choose

01:06:14 from, but they're, they're going to Moscow.

01:06:15 They're going to Ogden.

01:06:17 They're going to Phoenix, Durban and James White.

01:06:19 And they're going to Georgetown, Texas, North of Austin with covenant Bible church where

01:06:24 I'm at.

01:06:24 And, and like, like, that's it.

01:06:27 Like I keep hearing for like that, you know, and I know there are a few others or they're

01:06:30 going to foster you know michael foster or dale you know but like but it's it's i'm sure you know

01:06:36 that's not an exhaustive list i'm sure we could come but it would still be a a short list if if

01:06:42 we listed every you know if we actually did the research um and so what do you say to to that guy

01:06:47 who's like all right like yeah i'm not going to change federal law and um and you know i'm not

01:06:52 going to do this i'm not going to do that you know it starts uh it starts at home starts with making

01:06:57 in my bed, but you just said that one of the key factors in doing those things as a husband and as

01:07:02 a father in my household that's going to lend towards my long-term success is being surrounded

01:07:08 by this church community, and where the heck do you find that? Yeah, I mean, in some sense, it is

01:07:15 a very difficult question, and you do have to take into account generally in those conversations.

01:07:20 You're right. Probably the biggest one that we get is, hey, here's my situation. What do I do

01:07:24 with my life. And I wish we had time to answer all of them. But I think what I can't even respond

01:07:31 to. Yeah, I can't even do that. But I think bottom line for me, when you're faced with a tough

01:07:36 decision, I always go back to core principles. Okay. I know from scripture, I don't have to

01:07:43 guess. I don't have to like divine the will of God in Mark Driscoll fashion. I don't have to do that.

01:07:49 I know what God says about church being participant in the body of Christ, having elders submitting

01:07:57 to them.

01:07:58 I know and have seen in my life how important, how vital, how essential that is.

01:08:03 Like if you want to live in a Christian, particularly as a Christian in a world that

01:08:07 is hostile to you and to the church, then you have to have brothers and sisters who

01:08:14 are not just Christians.

01:08:17 I mean, this is the thing.

01:08:18 I think there are a lot of churches in America that are Christian, but not necessarily pushing the ball forward, not missionally aligned, not really forming much of a resistance. This isn't the time to be a part of that, I don't think.

01:08:34 And I think that's why so many people are moving.

01:08:37 And that's what a lot of this comes down to.

01:08:38 I've been in those situations, too, where fundamentally I've said, look, we don't have that church.

01:08:45 We're in a community where I can't drive three hours to even find one.

01:08:50 Maybe it's not even in the same state as you.

01:08:53 And I basically came to the point where it's like, look, I do not want to live in Utah.

01:08:58 I do not like Utah. 1.00

01:09:00 I do not like a state that is run by Mormons. 1.00

01:09:02 I don't like the desert. I don't like that price of housing. And you go to many of our areas where 1.00

01:09:09 there's good churches. Texas is probably a little different, but Moscow, Ogden, not cheap places to

01:09:15 live. And I remember wrestling through this. And finally, I just said, look, here's the deal.

01:09:22 You want to see your generations raised up in faithfulness to the Lord? Well, I can't just give

01:09:28 into the status quo. And I think this is for men, especially, this is the part about what does it

01:09:33 mean to be a hero? Well, first of all, not everyone is one. And so to act heroically and courageously

01:09:38 and to be a man, you're going to have to do really hard things sometimes. And you're going to have to

01:09:42 make sacrifices. And Joel, I guess the thing I don't get with a lot of men is they're like, well,

01:09:47 yeah, but my business and my this and my that. And I'm like, okay, well, what are your kids'

01:09:51 souls worth to you? Right. What about your wife? What's the difference? What's the difference

01:09:58 between a wife who is in a community that she can flourish versus a community that she is

01:10:05 continually crippled by anxiety and bitterness and not being fed by the word of God.

01:10:12 Well, it's a big difference. And I mean, you look at the gospel commands. What did Jesus say? Like,

01:10:18 it's almost cliche because we've heard it so many times, you know, come and follow me.

01:10:23 And people are like, no, I got a house. I got to attend. No, I got my parents. I got the...

01:10:27 And I'm not saying businesses and houses and parents are a very real consideration, but I feel like in this moment, the stakes are so high that for me in my house, it was like, yeah, we're burning the boats.

01:10:40 Well, we may go down swinging, but we're going to give it our best effort.

01:10:44 We're not going to sit on our hands and we're not going to watch our family just deteriorate spiritually and just say, well, hopefully against all my foolishness, God just makes it work out.

01:10:55 yeah that's a great answer that's super helpful yeah i think uh i don't think there's any way

01:11:03 around it i think that's the the honest answer the honest answer is um yeah you're probably

01:11:08 gonna have to move and it's gonna be hard and it's gonna require sacrifice and at the end of

01:11:13 the day like what you're measuring because because you and i like we're not pietists like we believe

01:11:18 in business we believe in um and and all you know vocation and all those things matter they matter

01:11:25 immensely um but what we're talking about right now is we're not talking about pietism we're

01:11:30 talking about um we're talking about economics and markets and vocation and all these things

01:11:36 that mattered and land oh maybe you own land in a certain place where like and it's been in your

01:11:41 family you know what i mean like all we're talking about things that matter but and and we're not the

01:11:46 the kind of guys theologically that would cast shade and say those things don't matter. We're

01:11:50 not, um, poverty gospel, John Piper guys. So we're saying we see the weight and the worth of that,

01:11:57 but we're weighing it currently right now against the weight of your kids souls, the weight of your

01:12:03 marriage, your wife, whether she's going to stay with you or leave you because she's being

01:12:09 lobotomized and, and indoctrinated by like that. So we're, we're pro own, own land, own gun,

01:12:16 uh guns own uh multiple properties over time build wealth multiple different you know a man

01:12:22 who casts his bread seven times in the water diversify getting all these things vocation

01:12:26 work hard leave a legacy a dynasty don't be like the hobby lobby guy and give it to charity that's 0.99

01:12:31 stupid don't hate your children give it to them don't have a bumper sticker that says i'm spending 0.99

01:12:35 my children's inheritance that's wicked god hates that like so we are not the the overtly spiritual 1.00

01:12:42 pietistic you know um just give the global missions no like we're saying all that matters

01:12:47 and and we would give all that up for for the soul we're talking about the soul and and not

01:12:53 just our soul but the souls of our children and so if that's the situation you're in then yeah

01:12:57 men do hard things they they start another business they scrape by for a while you know

01:13:03 they they hustle they do you do whatever it takes and so i i really appreciate that you gave that

01:13:09 answer because i think that's the real answer that's the honest answer there is no i keep trying

01:13:13 to give people another answer but i'm just like that i think that's that's the answer some of

01:13:19 these guys a lot of these guys are literally they're just going to have to move they're going

01:13:22 to have to move yeah and a lot of them too joe i'm sure you're aware a lot of these situations

01:13:28 i'll hear from the same guys over like three years and they just remain in the same condition

01:13:32 And yeah, it is hard. For a lot of people, there's no easy answer. But again, yeah, that priority of spiritual health of your family has to be at the top of the list.

01:13:46 Amen. Well, this has been super helpful. I won't keep you any longer, but I just want to say thanks for coming on the show.

01:13:51 Tell our listeners one more time, you know, we kind of said it in the beginning, but one more time, what are some of the projects you're involved in, how they can be following you and how they can help support you and the Ogden Boys, your ministry?

01:14:00 Yeah, absolutely. So I am the CEO of New Christendom Press. That is my full-time

01:14:06 venture these days. And we've got a number of things under that banner, which include Bright

01:14:11 Hearth podcast with Brian and Lexi Sauve. We've got the Hardman podcast. And then of course,

01:14:16 the Kings Hall podcast. And people can definitely follow along, support us on Patreon on all those

01:14:22 channels. And we're kind of everywhere with that. But yeah, if you go to kingshall.com or

01:14:27 New Christendom Press or erickahn.com. You can find any one of us and kind of follow along.

01:14:33 Great. All right, Eric, thanks for coming on the show. I appreciate it, man.

01:14:37 Awesome. Thanks, Joel. I appreciate it, brother.

01:14:39 Can I be frank with you for just a second right here at the end? Look, some of you guys,

01:14:43 you're financially supporting this ministry, and from the bottom of my heart, I say thank you. I

01:14:49 cannot thank you enough. However, some of you, you just can't afford it. In fact, some of you,

01:14:56 you shouldn't afford it. Let's be honest. I mean, we're living in Joe Biden's ridiculous economy.

01:15:03 Our nation and our totalitarian political elites lost their minds over the last three years 0.91

01:15:11 due to COVID. We have written checks that we simply cannot cash. It doesn't matter if people

01:15:18 change the definition of a recession. We are living in a recession right now regardless.

01:15:24 Some of you are struggling to afford a carton of eggs at the grocery store

01:15:29 You cannot support financially this ministry at this time, nor should you

01:15:35 But you could still help us tremendously

01:15:38 I am asking you, please, if you're willing to do so

01:15:42 Take one minute of your time

01:15:44 Leave us a five-star review on your favorite podcast platform

01:15:48 iTunes, Spotify, whatever that might be

01:15:51 This is the way the system works

01:15:53 We want to be innocent as doves, but shrewd as vipers.

01:15:58 We need to be strategic.

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The NXR Podcast - February 14, 2023

THEOLOGY APPLIED - Pastors Who Won’t Rebuke Women Are Pastors Who Hate Women ｜ with Eric Conn

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript