Pastor Douglas Wilson of Christ Church in Moscow, Idaho joins me to talk about the new documentary, "Shiny Happy People," and an older documentary that made a lot of waves, "The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill," put on by Christianity Today.
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00:05:42.520I live in the panhandle of Idaho up north, and I'm the pastor of Christ Church.
00:05:49.320here in moscow idaho um i've been the pastor of this this church for over 40 years um that's my
00:05:57.420day job and i do a lot of writing and cultural political commentary on the side great and in
00:06:05.520the broader reformed world you're currently known as someone who's um a moderate a bit squishy
00:06:11.220right when it comes yes yes talk about that for just a second that's got to be a very novel feeling
00:06:18.840for you yeah it is a novel sensation because for years and years and years i've been sort of the
00:06:25.000hardcore um conservative bad boy and uh as clown world started to pick up steam and become ever
00:06:35.600ever more clownish as that happened a lot of people uh got red pilled and some of them got
00:06:43.980scarlet pilled you know deep deep red pilled and they moved over to my right and they wondered
00:06:51.580what's this all who's this temporizing wilson fellow right yep yep that has happened um okay
00:07:00.460well for today i would love to have a discussion with you about the new documentary that has got
00:07:07.540a bit of momentum i think it's on amazon is uh who produced it but it's called shiny happy people
00:07:13.620It focuses on the Duggars and their family. It focuses on Bill Gothard. It focuses on Michael and Debbie Pearl and really just the whole homeschooling, patriarchal Joshua generation movement of the 1970s, maybe late 70s, certainly the 80s and some of the 90s.
00:07:34.540and i've just been thinking you know that there seems to be because in in large part because of
00:07:39.660your influence and then younger guys like me who in the last few years have have come to the light
00:07:44.380and seen the goodness of things that you've been faithfully teaching for 40 years and now we're
00:07:48.420coming on board and amplifying your efforts probably also getting you in trouble i i think
00:07:52.540i've gotten you in trouble a couple times cross politic right the young guys i feel like you get
00:07:56.580yourself in trouble and then a good 90 of the trouble is like a younger guy who's in your
00:08:02.540orbit saying that um baptists are the cause of transgenderism you know something like that stuff
00:08:08.200like stuff like that yeah and you know and i've noticed just admiring from a distance that um
00:08:14.020the way i mean you could you could throw a guy like me who gets you know who says something
00:08:18.740and and quotes you but says it a way that you actually wouldn't say it and gets you in trouble
00:08:23.780you could throw us under the bus but i think that uh you do a good job not exasperating spiritual
00:08:28.680son, so to speak. So I'm grateful for that. But all that being said, guys like me, young guys
00:08:33.960have hopped on board the patriarchy train. And a lot of that because of your influence and a few
00:08:38.240other guys. But it seems in my assessment that this new resurgence of patriarchy has some clear
00:08:45.900doctrinal distinctions and methodological distinctions from the patriarchy of the 70s,
00:08:52.86080s, and 90s, the way that the Duggars might've done it, or the Pearls, or certainly some
00:08:57.540distinctions with Bill Gothard and some of his teachings. What do you think some of those
00:09:01.140distinctions are? How have you seen patriarchy, that world that you were ministering during that
00:09:06.580time? How have you seen it good? How have you seen it go bad? What do you think? Yeah. So this is
00:09:12.760really an interesting subject because we're dealing with a cultural moment, dealing with
00:09:20.380hundreds of thousands of people and consequently definitions shift and change over time so when
00:09:28.960feminism first became a thing uh in our culture generally and then right on schedule maybe five1.00
00:09:36.780ten years afterwards evangelical feminism became a thing you know okay uh the world's doing
00:09:43.460something let's uh let's all discover that this is what the apostle paul meant all along
00:09:49.240Right. So evangelical feminism started to get traction back in the 70s. And there were some people starting to articulate that. At that time, the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood and the response to it from evangelicals was that they came up with the name complementarian.0.63
00:10:09.920okay so and the and complementarianism at that time were was emphasizing that women men and
00:10:17.720women are equals before god but they have distinct complementary roles okay now i have no objection
00:10:25.720whatever to that definition men and women are equal before god and they do have distinct
00:10:33.020complementary uh roles so that is thus far everything's great and when it started out
00:10:40.160it was an answer to a response to a pushback to uh feminism and that's that was all to the good
00:10:48.200okay but as time went on and you're dealing with more and more people uh i would say that you have
00:12:44.320so I would call myself an advocate of the patriarchy.
00:12:47.700I'm a defender of that which the egalitarians want to smash.
00:12:51.700They want to smash the patriarchy, and I want to defend the patriarchy.
00:12:56.620And I want the leadership of men and the gifts and calling of men to be in evidence in more places than just the pulpit and the final decision-making vote in a family discussion.
00:13:10.400I think it should come out in things like men and women's role in combat and war, in business, in just general cultural things.
00:13:24.560So I'm happy to call myself an advocate of the patriarchy.
00:13:32.180But men and women are sinners wherever they go.
00:13:36.660so if they adopt complementarianism at some point some people are going to start sinning with that
00:13:43.440term right um right and the same thing is true of the patriarchy when you say i'm an advocate
00:13:52.080of the patriarchy does that mean i'm an advocate of everything that anybody might do under the
00:13:58.220banner of patriarchy uh well of course not i've i've seen some really obnoxious behavior
00:14:04.580on the part of some men who would call themselves advocates of the patriarchy.
00:14:11.400And one of my interests is to not let them represent what I'm talking about.
00:14:18.400So that means that if I'm going to inhabit the realm of the patriarchy,
00:14:22.940then we have to be diligent to police our own.
00:14:26.820So there are certain things that we must do to guard the perimeters of this world
00:14:33.900so that it doesn't turn into a joke of a term yeah amen um so my understanding is i think it
00:14:41.160was 1988 that uh john piper and wayne grudem uh really were integral in coining the term
00:14:48.460complementarianism and if you look at some of the early writings there was even kind of um
00:14:54.680an admission on on their part that in some sense it was it was a way to mount a defense against
00:15:02.400feminism against egalitarianism uh but trying to make it was it was kind of a halfway house it was
00:15:08.440a third way ism it was between patriarchy and egalitarianism uh trying to basically seed every
00:15:15.220inch you possibly could without uh compromising the scripture and i think that there were some
00:15:20.280compromises in my assessment and exactly what you were just saying i would be right there on board
00:15:24.540with you that um i i think that complementarianism part of what it did was it said there's a
00:15:29.700distinction in role so male and female roles he assigned them um instead of male and female
00:15:35.960natures he designed them um and and they would now to be fair because i don't want a straw man
00:15:41.860to be fair they would say no no no the difference of roles stems from a difference of design
00:15:46.280but they would exclusively root the distinctions at the level of design um in the physical realm
00:15:52.780so men can bench more and women have hips and can have babies praise god and so you know and1.00
00:15:58.600And, and, but that would be about it. Whereas I would say, well, traditionally, like when you read somebody, you know, who, who's a theologian before the 1960s, like the other 1960 years of church history, um, they don't just say that there's a physical difference between men and women, but that the difference goes all the way down.
00:16:15.840And and that, yes, of course, there are always exceptions. We can find one woman who can outbench one man, you know. But in general, we're speaking in group general terms. The difference between men and women is not just a matter of ovaries and physical strength, but but that there actually is something to be said for not just the order of creation, but Paul appeals to the order of the fall.0.99
00:16:37.200The woman was deceived and became a sinner, whereas the man bears more responsibility, but he sinned with his eyes wide open.
00:16:44.060So more culpability towards deception or vulnerability towards deception.
00:16:49.200And then I would add onto that first Peter chapter three, that the woman has a quiet and gentle spirit as her general disposition or she should.
00:16:57.420And so I even think of women who are not preaching, but in the public sphere, I think a woman can be in the public sphere.0.85
00:17:04.600I think she can have a podcast, those kinds of things.
00:17:07.200But I do think that there needs to be a carefulness about regular polemical language, a polemical, especially calling out men, even bad men who need to be called out.
00:17:19.580to me it just feels off when when that's the that's the meat and potatoes that's uh that's0.70
00:17:25.240the regular um um disposition of a woman um using sar you know a levying sarcasm and those kinds of0.58
00:17:33.440things against men in the civil public sphere i just i listen to it and i'll even agree a lot of0.84
00:17:40.720times and yet i feel a little bit uneasy it just it doesn't feel quite right um am i crazy what
00:17:46.920what would you say to them? So I would say that, uh, I would want, uh, women when they exercise0.99
00:17:53.580their satiric gifts, which some of them definitely have, they, it should look more like Jane Austin1.00
00:18:00.000than it does, uh, than it looks like HL Mencken. Okay. Because when you get into a certain kind
00:18:08.620of verbal polemic combat, uh, watching women engage in that sort of thing, it's like woman,0.63
00:18:15.900a woman like watching a woman do uh competing in the shot put um there's something there's0.99
00:18:21.780something unbecoming about it but in that area you don't make hard and fast rules there are times
00:18:28.680when there's a burglar in the house and husband's not at home and the and the wife knows where the
00:18:33.880gun is you know you want your wife to defend the home when it comes down to it so it's but at the
00:18:41.360same time uh the glorification of that kind of thing which you see very much in our entertainment0.74
00:18:48.820in the in the movies is a glorification of something kinky um there's something wrong
00:18:56.120with it so the um in deuteronomy uh 22 5 it says it prohibits transvestitism uh for the men
00:19:05.360a man shall not wear the apparel of a woman and it also says that the woman shall not bear the
00:19:12.120gear of a warrior kelly gebir um so she she is not supposed to be decked out in a 50 pound0.91
00:19:20.120backpack and an automatic weapon and a helmet she's not supposed to wear the gear of a warrior1.00
00:19:25.000um and the the glorification of the of the deadly assassin female is has got a sexual kink in it1.00
00:19:48.040So I think there's a lot of confusion.
00:19:51.280I think it helps when people quit the ambiguity and just speak plainly.
00:19:56.460I've been saying over these past couple months, because there's been a little bit of a resurgence of a disagreement between patriarchal guys
00:20:03.940and complementarian guys online and i've thrown my hat in the ring and i've tried to be careful
00:20:08.100and you know but but i've also tried to be courageous and and saying hey no i think
00:20:12.260patriarchy is good i'm on that side and there is a difference we're not just talking past each
00:20:15.940other it's not just semantics there's some some real uh differences and i've been kind of limiting
00:20:20.020those differences to this number one um that uh that there's a difference not just in role but a
00:20:25.860difference in design and that difference in design is not merely physical but that it also um has to
00:20:31.220do with uh the the not just the physical nature but the emotional psychological spiritual nature
00:20:36.860the way that god made men and women so that's one difference between patriarchy and complementarianism
00:20:40.980secondly i've been saying that complementarianism only wants to limit now it's not speaking to
00:20:46.420nature but speaking to role only wants to limit the distinctions in role to the home and the church
00:20:50.900whereas patriarchy we're going to say father rule is a good thing and it is the ordinary design of
00:20:56.440God, um, for every sphere of life that the men sit in the city gates, not just sitting on thrones
00:21:02.920on the stage, like an old timey Baptist church, you know, on Sunday morning. Um, but they also
00:21:06.860sit in the city gates outside of the Lord's day, outside of the setting of the church when it comes
00:21:11.420to, um, making decisions for, um, for the overall society. So I think that's another distinction
00:21:18.500that I've mentioned. Now here's the last one. And I think I, you may disagree with me on this one
00:21:23.040and that's fine um and maybe you'll set me straight i may you know end up being persuaded
00:21:27.520one other distinction uh when it comes to so older women um are called to teach younger women0.59
00:21:32.900so uh women can teach but they should not teach and and exercise authority over over a man uh but
00:21:39.340older women do teach younger women uh titus 2 i look at titus 2 uh they are to teach the good um
00:21:45.980but but i don't think that paul lost his train of thought and all of a sudden uh hops on an
00:21:49.960entirely different subject. I think the following phrases is Paul's description of what that good
00:21:55.940is. And it all seems to be domestic, lovers of children, submissive to their husbands,
00:22:02.580not slanderous, and all of this so that the word of God would not be reviled, which is ironic0.97
00:22:06.820because the feminists would say that the patriarchy is giving room for the word of God to1.00
00:22:11.760be reviled. And we would say, no, the feminist bearing the name of Christ is giving room,1.00
00:22:16.900according to scripture for the word of God to be reviled. So all that being said, I would0.79
00:22:21.020personally hold that even outside of Lord's day preaching to mixed gathering of men and women,
00:22:25.760even if it's a podcast, predominantly targeting Christian women, um, outside of, of the setting1.00
00:22:31.400of the church, outside of the Lord's day, I would prefer not to see a woman's going to be teaching0.84
00:22:36.280theology, but I would prefer not to see it being a deliberate 17 part series on theology proper
00:22:42.520and uh divine impassibility i i would like to see there be some deep rooted theology there's a
00:22:48.820theology of sourdough there's a theology of but i would like to see it predominantly um dealing
00:22:53.800with with womanly things with with parenting with marriage um with with womanly things and
00:23:00.320for instance i think your daughters do a fantastic my wife is a big fan of what have you
00:23:04.380but the reason why she likes it and there are other godly christian women that she doesn't0.79
00:23:08.600like their podcast um but she likes your daughter's podcast because it gets a little snarky every now0.88
00:23:14.420and then but but by and large it's all it it's two women talking about being women right and you know
00:23:20.700so they're not teaching women and and and i you know one more distinction where i've gotten straw
00:23:26.040manned and misrepresented is they say well see they don't think women should learn theology
00:23:29.320we're not talking about learning we're talking about what women should teach to other women
00:23:33.100so the woman should sit right next to the men learning theology proper learning doctrine of0.82
00:23:38.140God. But when it comes to older women teaching younger women, the reason why I think it's0.94
00:23:42.700primarily about these domestic feminine type of things is because when it comes to learning
00:23:48.100doctrine of God and systematic theology, the context for a woman to learn, and she must1.00
00:23:53.100learn those things, but the context for her to learn those things is right next to her husband
00:23:57.380on the Lord's day from male pastors. Where would you say I'm off or what do you think I'm...
00:24:04.820So on this third one, let me agree with you and add a few things and then go back to your second point with a yes, but with a yes, but so on the I believe that women should learn right alongside the men.
00:24:19.500We've provided our daughters with the same education that we provided our son with, but it was toward a different end.
00:24:27.960And so as my daughter Becca pointed out, I think it's in her book, Eve in Exile, the
00:24:35.860woman learns theology right alongside of her husband.
00:24:40.060As the pastor is preaching, let's say he gets into a theological series, both the man and
00:24:46.820the woman learn and take it on board, but they're supposed to process and apply differently.
00:24:52.900And Becca's point was, it's the woman's role to take in systematic theology and then glorify it.
00:25:01.740And she glorifies it within her realm, in the home she makes, in the way she treats the kids, the way she supports her husband, all the things that you rightly pointed out, Paul tells the older women to teach the younger women how to do.
00:25:20.840So this is not, oh, my husband will go off to the theology club and learn to read Berkhoff, and I'm just going to get enough education to enable me to read the instructions on the biscuit box.
00:25:38.060I need to know fractions because I'm going to bake, but that's it.
00:25:40.800But that's but that's all. Don't push me. Right. No, not at all. I wanted my daughters to have a first rate education, but I never wanted them to forget why we were giving it to them.
00:25:52.360And the reason we were giving a first rate education to our daughters was a different reason than we were giving that same first rate education to our son.
00:26:00.780so we we wanted to go in different directions and so what our daughters have done is so if someone
00:26:07.500says hey um uh wilson is this uh domineering patriarch he doesn't let the women talk and
00:26:14.040he's he he doesn't think they have a thought in their heads it's worth anything and uh well if
00:26:19.420that's my position then it has to be acknowledged that i'm very bad at it because because i've got
00:26:25.840a wife who's written eight books, and one of them a textbook, and my two daughters are both0.61
00:26:33.120published and very accomplished and intelligent, but they are also distinctively feminine,
00:26:40.900and they've taken their role as, I take on this information, and it comes out of, I'm fond of
00:26:47.800saying, theology comes at your fingertips, and whatever it is that's coming at your fingertips
00:26:52.060is your theology. Well, the Reformed theology that comes out of my daughter's fingertips
00:26:57.740is very different than what comes out of my son's, what comes out of my fingertips.
00:27:03.740What comes out of my wife's fingertips is very different, not because it's a different theology,
00:27:08.880but because it is being dispensed through different channels, through different avenues.
00:28:38.780There will not be a situation where it will be okay to have a woman preacher.1.00
00:28:43.960that's just forbidden now if if the families of a culture are being obedient in this and if the0.96
00:28:53.160churches in a culture are being obedient in this it will be the case that overwhelmingly the
00:29:00.740civic leadership the cultural civic political leadership of that society is going to be
00:29:08.620masculine, got to be male. But in Isaiah, I think it's chapter three of Isaiah, it says one of the
00:29:16.020curses on a culture is when women and children lead them. So when a culture is dominated by1.00
00:29:24.160feminine leadership, something is drastically, desperately wrong. It's not great progress1.00
00:29:31.500to have um 57 of your 100 senators to be women yeah okay that's that's something is really
00:29:41.680really wrong if that happens but here's my yes but uh if i i don't have any problem with deborah
00:29:50.320being a judge in israel because that's that was an odd circumstance and there you go i don't have
00:29:57.260any problem with queen elizabeth the first being queen of england um during a period that is prop
00:30:04.100was probably one of the most intensely patriarchal periods in all of english history was that period
00:30:12.200of time but it happened that a woman was the queen uh if i was a brit and living in england
00:30:18.580in the 80s i would have voted for margaret thatcher that doesn't that doesn't bother me
00:30:23.820It's not like having a woman preacher, but I would resist and fight the idea that, that if everything was as it should be, that the, the leadership of the culture should be 50% men, 50% women that if you have that, if that's the dominant paradigm, then basically your leadership is 50% feminine and 50% effeminate.
00:30:50.820So, I am a strong advocate of masculine leadership in civil society, but it is not to be regulated as strictly as keeping a woman out of the pulpit.0.71
00:31:07.720If a woman's in the pulpit, you're disobeying.0.82
00:31:10.280um if oh if a woman is the one of two women in the senate 98 men and two two women and the two
00:31:20.600women are widows of their late husband the former senator uh if it's something like that then i don't
00:31:26.860think that that's a uh a sign of creeping egalitarianism but what we have going on now
00:31:32.640really is uh and even in even in conservative circles you'll have people say well let's have0.78
00:31:38.940a woman speak to the abortion issue um why yeah because the men are cowards that's why right i
00:31:47.320and so i'm with you 100 that um the way that we operate in the political civil sphere is different
00:31:53.560than the church um in the same way that uh i could vote for donald trump in 2020 with a clear
00:31:58.440conscience uh but i could not appoint him as an elder in my local church um because we're because
00:32:04.200we're not living uh in a vacuum and all things are not equal and so um yeah so if we've got this
00:32:09.580bastion of defender of of life in the womb and it's a woman and she's running for president and
00:32:15.740then i've got joe biden as my other option then i'm casting my vote for that woman but all things
00:32:21.040being equal let's say uh the the two options are morally equal i'm voting for the man um and and
00:32:27.700that's you know and so uh whereas in the church uh it's uh well if those are the two options a
00:32:33.360corrupt man or a godly woman then that church just we're we're going to go with the third option in
00:32:38.000that case which is uh we're not going to have a pastor or underground church you just go right
00:32:44.380yeah right um so let me run a couple more things by you real quick so um it has been said um uh
00:32:51.960you know that a woman um can preach in terms of and i can preach in terms of ability um and better
00:33:00.060than most men um that that she you know and which is not saying much you know these days because
00:33:05.720most men you know are are deplorable uh most men pastors male pastors but that a woman could in
00:33:11.380terms of her ability she could communicate she could say things that are doctrinally true
00:33:15.600theologically true communicate those things well a powerful communication order order um all those
00:33:21.700kinds of things um but she she could but she shouldn't um and and i addressed that um recently
00:33:27.820and had a response video to that. And I said, I think that's part of the problem of complementarianism.
00:33:32.480At some way, at some level, it subtly asserts that God's roles are arbitrary, right? That God calls
00:33:42.520birds to fly and he calls fish to swim. And he just randomly decided that. It has nothing to do
00:33:48.360with the fact that birds have feathers and wings and a hollow bone structure and fish have gills
00:33:52.020and fins. And so, whereas I would say, no, a woman can't preach, or I'm sorry, she should not1.00
00:33:58.300preach in part because she can't. And I think part of this gets to our understanding of men and0.93
00:34:03.460women, but I think part of it gets to our understanding of preaching. And so what I
00:34:06.280asserted in this little video response is I said, I think we misunderstand preaching. If we think
00:34:11.300of preaching exclusively, entirely as serving up a spiritual meal to God's hungry children on the0.68
00:34:19.440lord's day spiritual nourishment um then why can't a woman do that it seems very feminine um but if
00:34:25.980we think that preaching is is offering spiritual nourishment to to people the lord's people his
00:34:31.220children sheep who are hungry but also it's also likened not just to a woman in the kitchen serving
00:34:37.360up a spiritual meal but to william wallace riding down the front line slamming his sword into the
00:34:42.300spears and swords of his comrades and calling them into war if preaching also contains that element
00:34:48.780then it's not only that a woman shouldn't do it but she literally can't do it and you know and i0.70
00:34:54.540had one one response i said well i can ride a horse and and and swing a sword without falling
00:34:59.220off you know and uh and and my response was um okay so you can physically ride the horse and
00:35:05.320swing the sword um but the men won't follow you uh that's the problem you so you still can't it's
00:35:11.380not just you shouldn't um in terms of of what you're allowed to do but it's also in terms of0.97
00:35:16.160what a woman is able to do. And I think as we've lost the worship is warfare aspect of the Lord's0.98
00:35:21.700day, as we've lost the masculine characteristics of preaching and calling the saints to battle,
00:35:29.260I think that's part. It's not just that we've lost our understanding of the differences between men
00:35:33.440and women. We've also lost our understanding of the nature, not just of men and women, but the
00:35:37.440nature of preaching. And I think that's part of it. You've been famous for saying the fern pacing
00:35:42.900preacher with the plexiglass pulpit that's just as transparent as his soul you know and um and so0.93
00:35:48.900it's like why well women are great at that so of course a woman could preach um what what would0.67
00:35:53.520you how would you respond to that that a woman shouldn't preach but also i'm asserting that0.98
00:35:57.500there's something in the nature of woman and something in the nature of preaching that she
00:36:00.680actually if we understand that properly it's not just she shouldn't preach she can't preach
00:36:05.340is that too far no i think it's right right on the money uh i think that there are many godly
00:36:10.820women who would be capable of um preaching according to our current definition of preaching
00:36:20.880in other words there are women who could do what a lot of the men think they're supposed to be doing1.00
00:36:26.900right and but they're not supposed to be doing that because that's not preaching
00:36:31.220that's either exhortation or encouragement at the good end um or or teaching at the good end
00:36:39.240But preaching, there's something when I'm looking to train ministerial candidates and looking to encourage young men in preparing them for pulpit ministry.
00:36:51.380One of the things I look for is something that can best be described as pulpit presence.
00:36:58.720Okay, you step into the pulpit and you belong in that space, right?
00:37:04.820And you're able to prepare yourself to declare the Word of God authoritatively,
00:37:13.540and your body is an instrument for doing that.0.91
00:37:19.060Now, a man who is a shorter or slighter build,
00:37:25.540if he doesn't have that physical component,
00:37:29.800he can still have that pulpit presence,
00:37:33.260but he's got to project and it's not it's not um incongruous so john piper's like that uh john
00:37:41.560piper's a small man but he communicates his preaching is masculine preaching and there's
00:37:48.780gravitas there and and a woman either cannot have that or if she does it's creepy that's right
00:37:59.700right that's exactly how i've been wording it is thinking that if a woman can do it so it would
00:38:05.600almost be like a woman going back to what you talked about earlier in the old testament about
00:38:08.820a woman shouldn't uh you know garb herself in in male attire especially male attire for combat0.93
00:38:14.700you know um military attire um for a woman to say i can preach but i won't because i'm not called to0.98
00:38:21.000it uh it's it's um it feels like a self-owned i'm like sister i i don't think you know what0.81
00:38:28.360you're saying because that that's like i mean it's almost like saying like i could wear that
00:38:33.180male military uniform better than a lot of the men could but i won't i'm like do you want to is that0.86
00:38:38.920the brag you want to be making because because that's the thing is like i i think some women1.00
00:38:43.640could do it um but they but if a it's if a man doesn't do it if a man is doesn't have gravitas1.00
00:38:51.700especially in all of life but especially in the pulpit if a man doesn't have a masculine weightiness
00:38:57.120glory weightiness to him in the pulpit his absence of that gravitas is the absence of the gravitas
00:39:04.060in the case of a man is sin but the presence of of that masculine aggressive um war-like gravitas
00:39:12.600in the presence of a woman is sin because we're called to different things and i think that gets
00:39:17.460back to part of the problem is that um people people think that men and women not just that
00:39:23.640there's no distinction between us outside of the physical distinction, but they also don't think
00:39:27.440there's any distinction in God's calling. People think that it's just, like I've also heard it
00:39:33.720expressed, you know, well, the chief end of men and women is to glorify God and enjoy him forever.
00:39:38.280So we have the same chief end. There's not one chief end of man and one chief end of women. And
00:39:43.080I would say, yes, but, all right? So yes, to glorify God and enjoy him forever. Here's a great
00:39:48.980question how you know by doing what he said amen amen so any any other thoughts on that and then i
00:39:58.420figured we can land the plane by getting back to you know the beginning and saying okay so
00:40:02.440all these things being said what how are what are some ways that you know the early patriarchal
00:40:07.560guys not early but like 80s you know the 80s patriarchy where were they different where would
00:40:14.200they have disagreed with our conversation that we've had today okay i think a lot of them
00:40:18.760would not disagree with the the broad outlines and everything has to do with how um how how you
00:40:27.580embrace this and how you put it into practice with wisdom or not so i'm i'm fond of saying
00:40:35.860that if you enroll in a math class the first thing you're going to encounter is math problems
00:40:42.380okay so and and not every student that goes into a math class gets all the answers right
00:40:49.120if you enroll in the math class some students get a 62 some get an 87 some score 100
00:40:56.500so let's say a bunch of us enroll in the in the patriarchy class the first thing you're going to
00:41:03.800encounter is patriarchy problems and becoming a becoming a patriarch becoming someone who joined
00:41:11.620a patriarchal world does not remove your sin nature it does not remove your temptations it
00:41:19.440doesn't it does not make it impossible for you to sin the way uh paul addresses a peculiar
00:41:27.580masculine sin in colossians he tells men not to be harsh with their wives right okay so um if you
00:41:36.400have a beta male type person who's doing his level best to be a girl, right, or his wife's
00:41:45.620best girlfriend, he might not have to obey what Paul says there about being harsh. He might be
00:41:53.300the most soft-spoken person in the world. But if you have a patriarchal guy who is simply reacting
00:42:00.420to feminism and is consequently harsh with his wife and harsh with his children and
00:42:05.900he's going to have all kinds of destructive consequences when his kids leave the faith
00:42:11.800when his wife finally gives up and you know melts down or is institutionalized or abandons him
00:42:18.340and it's all it's going to be because he was harsh not because he was patriarchal but in the
00:42:25.660patriarchal world if someone goes to him and says brother you're just you're just being a cold hard
00:42:32.780harsh husband that's not loving your wife as christ loved the church oh you're a feminist
00:42:38.740so so in the patriarchal world some of the guys some of the hard-bitten guys who can point to
00:42:47.020chapter and verse and i'm you know i'm the head of my home and what i say is law and you know
00:42:53.120all that kind of posturing that's not headship that's machismo okay and machismo doesn't get
00:43:01.680the same results the sacrificial headship does and and it's easy to represent sacrificial headship
00:43:09.600as some sort of compromise with what the ladies want uh no it's it's not what the ladies want at
00:43:15.720all. It should be, what does Christ want? What does Christ demand? And Christ requires that I
00:43:22.940love my wife as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her. So I've seen a lot of posturing
00:43:28.600and brittleness and concern about reputation and machismo among people who would want to call
00:43:38.400themselves patriarchal. And they think that whatever they're doing is biblical because it
00:43:45.520makes the feminists mad. But that's too low a bar. Everything makes the feminists mad,1.00
00:43:50.880and everything's not biblical. So again, going back to what I said earlier, we who want to be1.00
00:43:59.000responsible advocates of the patriarchy have to police our own ranks. But that means that we're
00:44:05.480going to react differently to exposes that the the world conducts like this uh recent film on
00:44:14.440the Duggars okay um for us we're going to react differently because we're going to say the Duggars
00:44:22.840and people like that are not are they're being attacked with their sins but they're not being
00:44:29.800attacked for their sins okay that's a good point that's right they're being so when david sinned
00:44:37.680with bethsheba and uriah and became uh um uh and became the the the laughing stock of the late
00:44:47.480night comedians he was being attacked with his sin but the reason he was being attacked at all
00:44:53.640was because he was a man after God's own heart, because he was of God's party.
00:44:58.820So he was aligned with God and with his law, and this radical inconsistency gave them ammo.
00:45:06.080But if the Duggars, as a clan, had just had enough good sense to put a rainbow on it and a plus sign,
00:45:18.620you know we are fundamentalists who are family friendly rainbow friendly lgbtq i plus friendly
00:45:28.080they wouldn't be attacked at all right um so josh josh is just expressing the plus
00:45:34.780right that's all he's doing and in the meantime joe biden can sniff anybody he wants
00:45:40.320right right and he can do it on camera and everybody can say man i wouldn't let this guy
00:45:48.180do anything involving children in our church. Are you crazy? And then everybody circles the0.98
00:45:58.320wagons because the issue is the political issue. They defend their guy. They don't attack him with
00:46:04.420his sins because they're in his camp. For the people who are representing God's order,
00:46:14.400when people who are representing the traditional family, some of them well, some of them poorly,
00:46:20.360they're going to be attacked with any inconsistency that they can find.
00:46:26.260But so as far as I'm concerned, pastorally in-house, if I'm dealing with people in our congregation
00:46:34.860who are really into a particular child-rearing method, or I'm going to say, okay, that's fine.