The NXR Podcast - THEOLOGY APPLIED - Pietists & Progressives： 2 Dying Breeds of Christianity

00:00:00.000 Hey guys, real quick, before we get started, I have a small request.

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00:00:18.000 Hi, and welcome to another episode of Theology Applied. I am your host,

00:00:21.280 Pastor Joel Webin with Right Response Ministries. And what we're doing for the month of July is we

00:00:25.940 are taking four of our most popular and most important episodes of Theology Applied, and we're

00:00:32.480 re-airing them. Some of you have seen this before, but this episode, you need a refresher. Some of

00:00:38.080 them you don't. Some of them, it's like been there, done that, bought the t-shirt. I'm telling you,

00:00:42.160 this one you could listen to 10 times and glean things away again and again and again, and it's

00:00:47.820 not because of me. It's because of my guest, Joe Boot. Joe Boot is the founder and president of the

00:00:54.880 Ezra Institute. And this episode, we talk about two ways that we can fail within the Christian 0.98

00:01:01.200 faith. Within evangelicalism as a whole, there are two pitfalls that are deadly. One is

00:01:08.280 progressivism, progressive Christians getting liberal and cute with the word of God, 0.97

00:01:14.880 perverting it, twisting it, right? But on the other hand, the pietist, the person who 0.97

00:01:20.860 spiritualizes everything. The radical two kingdom guy, the person who thinks that Christ and his 0.73

00:01:27.180 kingly rule is only ethereal. It's only spiritual. It's theoretical, but it has no tangible physical

00:01:35.080 earthly ramifications. That's the person who has conservative doctrine and Jesus is Lord of their

00:01:41.900 sweet little heart. But Jesus Lordship is not over all things in any real tangible way. It's the

00:01:49.320 person who is conservative in their doctrine, but they will not engage the culture. They will not

00:01:55.700 engage the world. Jesus said, my kingdom is not of this world. But Jesus never said, my kingdom is

00:02:03.000 not in this world. You need to listen to this episode. It's one of my all-time favorites.

00:02:09.060 Tune in now. Applying God's word to every aspect of life. This is Theology Applied.

00:02:19.320 Hi, this is Pastor Joel with Right Response.

00:02:22.520 We're diving into another episode of Theology Applied,

00:02:24.980 and I am very privileged to have as a special guest, Dr. Joseph Boot.

00:02:29.460 He is in Canada, I believe Toronto. Is that correct, Dr. Boot?

00:02:33.180 Just outside of Toronto, yeah.

00:02:34.780 Just outside of Toronto. You are the, I believe, both founder and president of the Ezra Institute.

00:02:40.000 Is that correct?

00:02:40.880 That's correct.

00:02:41.720 So founder and president of the Ezra Institute,

00:02:43.760 and you've got teaching fellows with the Ezra Institute

00:02:46.700 that some of our listeners would probably recognize guys like dr james white is jeff durbin is he one

00:02:52.400 of the teaching fellows he is yeah i i think jeff was added uh last year great what what about uh

00:02:59.360 doug wilson in moscow idaho uh we don't have doug yet um uh we uh we haven't uh actually

00:03:07.380 approached doug about that but it's certainly on our minds great to do so a lot of our listeners

00:03:12.860 and myself personally have benefited um greatly from from him from apology you guys yeah go ahead

00:03:19.640 we actually did have him we did have him lecturing uh at a couple of recent programs here in canada

00:03:24.680 we've had him up actually before and uh last year we had doug we were blessed to have doug remotely

00:03:30.340 lecturing to our students so great great we're it's a good it's a great connection so go ahead

00:03:35.820 yeah i totally agree so go ahead and explain for our listeners just a little bit of the uh the

00:03:40.020 mission of the Ezra Institute? So the Ezra Institute was founded in 2009, so 13 years ago

00:03:48.400 now. And our purpose, fundamentally, while we are a, we're a Christian world and life view think

00:03:55.720 tank. And our concern is with Christian philosophy and cultural apologetics, and how we apply the

00:04:02.200 the biblical world and life view to every aspect of society and culture uh so our our aim is to

00:04:10.420 to be able to resort not just speak uh hopefully prophetically really to culture i think that's

00:04:16.380 what cultural apologetics actually is it's about bringing the the fullness of the word of god to

00:04:21.680 bear on the challenges that face christians in the context of creation so we seek to uh speak to

00:04:30.040 the issues of our of our of our time from a distinctly christian perspective and then we try

00:04:35.700 and resource uh christians as well through um print and digital resources uh as well as in-person

00:04:43.560 uh short-term residential training programs in biblical worldview and and cultural apologetics

00:04:49.120 so that's what the ezra institute is uh is about and we have uh we have a journal called jubilee

00:04:55.140 that's published tri-annually uh we have a podcast for cultural reformation and our fellows you just

00:05:01.080 mentioned some of them um are located um in europe the united states and canada we have 18 uh teaching

00:05:09.180 fellows who are engaged with our programming praise god yeah we you know we were trying to

00:05:15.020 do something similar i would never you know say that we're doing um as robust of a job as you guys

00:05:22.540 are, but that's kind of the vision for this podcast, Theology Applied, that, you know, we don't want to

00:05:26.780 just salute the inerrancy of scripture. We want to hold to the sufficiency of scripture. And we want

00:05:31.420 to hold for the sufficiency of scripture for every realm of life from all spheres. And so we want to

00:05:38.280 teach people to actually apply their theology and not just have that privatized lordship. At some

00:05:43.860 point, it seems like in Western culture, Jesus went from being Lord of all to being Lord of our

00:05:48.820 sweet little heart. And we want Christ to be Lord of all, and he is Lord of all, whether we want it

00:05:54.800 or not, but we want people to embrace that as a wonderful thing and to practically begin to

00:06:00.060 actually apply theology to all of life, wield the sword, not just look at it and admire the sword

00:06:05.940 from the mantle, but actually wield the sword. So with that being said, one of the questions that I

00:06:10.540 had for you, I was telling you as we were getting started and right before we started recording,

00:06:15.120 I just listened twice. It was so good. And I wanted to make sure, you know, when you're

00:06:19.240 listening to something, you don't always retain quite as much as you do when you read. So I

00:06:22.520 listened twice to your short little book called For Mission. It seems like that's probably where

00:06:28.340 a lot of those principles are fleshed out further in your mission for God is what I'm assuming.

00:06:34.860 And so I would listen to that. It was fantastic. So one of the first questions that I had that

00:06:38.400 you addressed in that book sounds simple enough, but I think a lot of Christians,

00:06:42.740 including myself, would have difficulty answering this question. What is the kingdom of God? And to

00:06:49.020 flesh that question out just a little bit more, what's the difference between the kingdom of God

00:06:53.600 and the church, the church growing and the kingdom of God growing? Or another way to put it, what's

00:06:59.280 also the distinction between the mission of the church and the mission of individual Christians?

00:07:04.920 Your thoughts on that from for mission was just so insightful. So could you explain that to our

00:07:11.240 listeners? Yeah, well, you've just drawn a very interesting point there just to begin with when

00:07:17.760 you talk about the difference between just affirming the infallibility of Scripture and

00:07:23.960 the sufficiency of Scripture, or what we might call the material authority of Scripture. So

00:07:31.600 evangelicals historically have been pretty good at talking about the infallibility of Scripture

00:07:37.580 or its inerrancy and arguing in a certain sense in the abstract for that where we've I think

00:07:45.420 fallen down is in the area of the sufficiency or the material authority of scripture and so

00:07:50.260 for mission what I'm trying to do in there is identify the biblical understanding of the kingdom

00:07:58.260 of God and the the role of the the Christian and Christian in the context of the family and their

00:08:05.980 workplace and the specific calling and role of the church and i think this is where uh one of

00:08:11.600 the key problems one of the critical issues actually is found now of confusion in the modern

00:08:17.000 church the the um the biblical word for church in the bible is ecclesia and it literally means

00:08:24.860 as you know called out a called out people a called out congregation uh and of course that

00:08:32.000 calling is for a purpose um and i think you you mentioned there you know how sometimes it's as

00:08:39.520 though we've reduced the the christian life to what's going on in our sweet little heart but

00:08:44.440 actually just the very word ecclesia uh a called out people um is is a church that is is a people

00:08:52.680 a gathered people that are on mission so um ecclesia literally means a called out congregation

00:08:58.480 but what are they called out in terms of what what what's the what's the purpose of their

00:09:04.540 calling how does their calling fit is the church an end in itself and that's where we encounter

00:09:09.580 the other word basileia which is you know the word for kingdom which is so critically important

00:09:16.420 which by the way jesus uses many many more times than he ever does uh the word church

00:09:23.500 And so perhaps a place to start would be to draw the important distinction between the kingdom of God and the church or even the body of Christ.

00:09:37.940 So first of all, let's just mention that even when we talk about church, church is used in a multiplicity of different ways.

00:09:46.980 Are we talking about the universal, invisible Church of Christ? Are we talking about the visible Church of Christ in all of history? Are we talking about the Church as it exists today across the world in this moment in time?

00:10:08.500 Are we talking about the church as a local gathered congregation or are we talking about the church in Texas or the church in Ontario?

00:10:18.660 So the way we use the word church, even certainly we're not simply talking about, are we talking about church as a building, that structure down the end of the street?

00:10:26.380 So the way in which the word church is used is often equivocal or ambiguous.

00:10:33.660 And that often doesn't help us because it's important that we define church properly.

00:10:38.500 or at least qualify the way in which we're talking about it but um from certainly within

00:10:45.380 the evangelical reform tradition the church uh is an institute it's a it's a it's a it's a gathered

00:10:53.180 people uh under certain offices or authorities so the the church is a form of government

00:11:00.720 uh and it has a particular role it has a particular calling which historically has

00:11:06.320 been understood certainly by the reformed churches uh following the reformation as the preaching of

00:11:11.840 god's word the administration of the sacraments and the exercise of church discipline and some

00:11:18.140 would add a certain amount of diaconal care responsibility and those are the uh the sort of

00:11:25.000 three four core marks of the church institute now um the fact that we can make a distinction

00:11:33.140 between the church institute and the body of Christ

00:11:38.020 is actually important in the sense that

00:11:41.000 not every church institute,

00:11:44.400 because we have all kinds of apostate churches,

00:11:46.980 can be called parts of the body of Christ.

00:11:51.960 So the body of Christ cannot be identified simplistically

00:11:55.640 with the church institute,

00:11:58.960 and neither can the church institute

00:12:02.160 be identified simplistically with the kingdom of God. And I think the big challenge we're facing

00:12:06.820 is that what the Bible understands by the kingdom of God is the rule and reign in particular of the

00:12:15.900 Lord Jesus Christ, who is king. And he is the king of a kingdom. He's sovereign over that kingdom.

00:12:21.520 He gives law within the context of his kingdom. And that kingdom is, biblically speaking, cosmic.

00:12:31.380 it's overall of creation everything is being brought into subjection that's what paul makes

00:12:36.480 clear in ephesians 1 in colossians 1 the book of hebrews makes crystal clear that all things are

00:12:41.580 being brought into subjection to king jesus first corinthians 15 uh and so the the in fact revelation

00:12:49.560 1 5 tells us that christ is the ruler of the kings of the earth present tense so the kingdom

00:12:56.120 of God is wherever Christ is ruling and reigning. And so we might say that oftentimes if you

00:13:02.900 compared, say, a faithful family, a faithful Christian family to a rebellious and apostate

00:13:11.300 church, well, that faithful Christian family is a more real and better expression of the kingdom of

00:13:17.640 God than that disobedient or apostate church. So the kingdom of God is wherever Christ is ruling

00:13:25.460 and reigning first in the individual of course in our families in our workplaces dare i say even in

00:13:31.680 the state uh where christ is ruling and reigning in the hearts of magistrates or politicians

00:13:36.860 there you see however imperfect an expression of the kingdom of god and of course we see the

00:13:42.260 kingdom of god expressed also in the church but it's there equally uh a imperfect expression

00:13:50.380 of the fullness of the meaning of the kingdom of God. Now we would acknowledge, and we must

00:13:55.480 acknowledge biblically that the church has a peculiar and unique role in the unfolding of

00:13:59.980 the kingdom of God, insofar as it's the place where Christians are gathered to hear the word

00:14:06.140 and where authority is exercised, a particular kind of ecclesiastical authority is exercised

00:14:12.500 around the Lord's table. And so there is a specific calling and function that the church

00:14:19.960 has uh but could we say the church is more important than the family or more important

00:14:26.440 than the individual or more important than uh the the magistrate in the kingdom of god i would say

00:14:33.420 no we can't say that uh because the kingdom of god is is wherever christ reigns and rules and so

00:14:42.000 that's uh maybe that's probably the best place to start maybe i can come on in a moment to talk

00:14:47.000 about the you know the difference between the individual calling and the church's calling but

00:14:50.560 that drawing that distinction between ecclesia and basilea and not conflating them and collapsing

00:14:55.980 them into one idea and i think the what i talk about in four mission is the way in which

00:15:01.620 whether unwittingly or by theological design uh many leaders want to collapse the kingdom of god

00:15:09.380 and the church as though they're identical and of course the implication of that joel is that if if

00:15:15.640 if the kingdom of god which is where christ is reigning and ruling is limited to the church

00:15:21.020 institute then there is only one place in all of culture and creation where christ can actually

00:15:25.580 reign right the church right i i usually use as a illustration if you ever watch the lion king when

00:15:33.040 you know simba he's up on pride rock early in the morning with his father the king mufasa and he's

00:15:37.780 looking at you know the lay of the land and all the different areas where he will one day rule

00:15:41.980 when he inherits the kingship, you know, and everything the light touches is the iconic line

00:15:47.320 that comes from his father, Mufasa. That's your, that's your territory. That's what you will

00:15:51.500 rule. And he said, what about that dark shadowy place over there? And I feel like many evangelicals

00:15:56.220 would say, well, that's politics or that's culture or, you know, and there is no, for the Christian

00:16:02.220 with a biblical worldview, there is no dark shadowy place where Christ does not reign. He

00:16:07.600 is reigning and ruling in all places. And so I love that distinction that I've learned from a

00:16:12.600 few individuals, but you uniquely, I think have fleshed that out. The distinction between the

00:16:17.300 church and the kingdom of God, the church, it seems, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems as

00:16:20.880 though the church only grows in one way, which is through conversion. And the church to the church

00:16:26.440 has been given in terms of tools, each of these spheres of government, the family is also a

00:16:30.600 government, the familial government, this civil government, the ecclesiastical government of the

00:16:36.140 church and each have been given tools to the father has been given a rod to, to the churches

00:16:41.160 have been given a sword, but a sword of the spirit it's persuasion, not coercion. The state

00:16:46.060 has been given a sword, everything the state does. The reason why we want minimal state involvement

00:16:51.300 and for me, a smaller government is because everything they do is at gunpoint. Eventually,

00:16:56.140 if I resist, eventually I'm going to find myself at the end of a gun. They've been given a ministry

00:17:01.060 of coercion. And that's not wrong, so long as they coerce in the jurisdiction that God has

00:17:06.720 actually assigned to them and don't get outside of that. And so the church only seems to grow in

00:17:11.240 one way, which is through persuasion, the sword of the spirit, preaching, the sacraments, conversion,

00:17:16.040 converting hearts. But the kingdom of God seems to expand every time a just law is legislated,

00:17:24.620 every time Christian art is made. And kind of in the likeness of Luther, Christian art isn't, 0.91

00:17:31.060 because it has John 3, 16 on the back of the painting, but the first imperative for the

00:17:36.580 cobbler is that he makes good shoes, not Christian's shoes. And so it's hopeful. And so in all these

00:17:41.740 different ways, the kingdom of God is expanding, even if the numerical growth of the church

00:17:48.020 is not occurring at that exact moment. But if individual Christians in the church,

00:17:54.580 in their various fields and stations where the Lord has sovereignly appointed them outside of

00:17:59.420 the church, whether it be in the state, in the marketplace, in homes, in schools, if they are

00:18:04.840 living out and actually the sufficiency of scripture, applying their theology in these

00:18:09.720 various fields, then even without numerical growth through conversion in the church, the kingdom of

00:18:14.820 God can still be expanding. Would that be a fair assessment? Yes, that's actually a really

00:18:21.500 good summary. We're talking about fundamentally the fact that the kingdom of God, I mean the

00:18:26.960 images that jesus uses for it are mustard seed leaven in a loaf uh starts seemingly imperceptibly

00:18:34.500 small um and you know that's actually the image also that we get in in daniel where the uncut stone

00:18:42.220 right uh smashes the idol of pagan state power and then grows to become a mountain filling the

00:18:49.700 earth that is the image of the rule and reign of christ and we see in that great hymn of philippians

00:18:54.820 to the celebration of the time when every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus

00:19:00.460 Christ is Lord. So yes, the body of Christ, and that's the individual believers, families,

00:19:06.240 and so forth, applying the reality of the truth of the gospel of the kingdom in every aspect of

00:19:12.240 their lives is what brings about through the work of the Holy Spirit. It's the way Christ brings

00:19:18.560 about the growth of his kingdom and that's why we're taught to pray uh thy kingdom come

00:19:24.240 thy will be done the location isn't it is interesting where on earth yeah as it is in

00:19:30.720 heaven and um that you're right that doesn't just happen through conversion now of course the body

00:19:37.840 of christ is growing through regeneration and it's as those regenerate believers apply the fullness

00:19:43.880 of the word of god that the kingdom of god is growing and i think the the the error that's made

00:19:50.740 in part is that you mentioned these these dark places you know we think oh oh that's a dark

00:19:56.860 place over there's a dark place over there that's culture that's politics that's law there's a dark

00:20:01.580 places come to the light of the church um and of course you're probably familiar with abraham

00:20:06.780 kuyper's very very famous statement you know there's not a square inch of the universe of

00:20:10.100 which Christ does not say, this is mine. What that really means, though, is that there is no

00:20:17.200 creation, we're told in Genesis, is good. It was made good. It's very good. And even though it's

00:20:23.620 fallen, Paul says that actually the redemptive work of Christ in Romans 8 is bringing about

00:20:30.180 the liberation, actually, of creation from its bondage to corruption. And the destiny of creation

00:20:36.400 itself is tied to us and the resurrection of our bodies that's how central our role is the sons of

00:20:42.940 god being revealed the creation is so so even that is a an interesting point so for several years i

00:20:49.200 pastored in san diego in california and then i moved to texas um uh fleeing really from from the

00:20:55.220 state of california and um as my wife and i you know we're having more children and wanting to

00:20:59.660 have a large family and coming into some of these convictions we decided it was best for us to

00:21:04.180 relocate. But, but while I was in San Diego, I'm sure you're familiar with Westminster Escondido

00:21:10.280 and one of the theological distinctions of that particular strain of Presbyterianism

00:21:16.080 is just this very staunch two kingdom theology. And so you have Druden, who's kind of held as

00:21:22.840 the gold standard for two kingdom theology. And, and so as you were parsing out that the different

00:21:28.840 ways in which the Bible uses the word church, I think it's also helpful to parse out for Christians

00:21:34.660 to be aware that the Bible also uses another word in multiple ways, that word being world.

00:21:39.360 When you think of Christians being called out, what are they called out from? Well, they're called

00:21:43.040 out from the world, but the world in what way? In what sense are we using the word world? Because

00:21:48.380 you're precisely correct that the world as it pertains to the cosmos, the creation,

00:21:54.360 is not a curse. And I think some Christians think the creation is a curse. No, it's under

00:21:58.600 a curse. It's under a curse, which is why in the expanse of the kingdom of God, as Christians push 1.00

00:22:04.080 back against the curse that is on creation, we can have success. And we can cure cancer by God's

00:22:12.260 grace. We can do certain things. But when societies and people created in the image of God

00:22:18.180 push back, not on the curse upon creation, but they push back against creation itself,

00:22:22.900 they start to fight nature, right? Well, that's like every horror sci-fi movie that's ever been

00:22:28.060 created right Jurassic Park nature finds a way but you're not going to win that battle no matter

00:22:32.300 how much technology no matter how many human advances there might be when when you push back

00:22:36.700 against the curse on nature by God's grace he can grant success when you push back against nature 1.00

00:22:42.040 itself it's going to fail and so Christians have been called out of the world but I think Christians 0.95

00:22:46.580 sometimes demonize the world as it pertains to the cosmos as it pertains to creation itself and 0.98

00:22:52.400 And so Jordan and some of these guys, they, I mean, the only thing that they think will

00:22:55.840 transfer into the new creation is our physical bodies, which they have to affirm that without

00:23:02.660 going into full-blown heresy, the, you know, the physical bodily resurrection, but everything

00:23:07.380 else, they would look at that verse, you know, the creation itself, you know, with eager

00:23:10.860 groans and expectations awaiting the sons of God being revealed, precisely what you're

00:23:15.360 getting to.

00:23:16.340 They would say that the creation is what it's really waiting for with the revelation of

00:23:20.760 the sons of God is a mercy killing from the Lord. The creation wants to give way, die, disintegrate,

00:23:26.660 the earth dissolving like snow, taking a very literal interpretation of that. And so in some

00:23:33.600 sense, they would never outright say this, but in some sense, it seems as though they've demonized

00:23:38.060 the world as it pertains to the cosmos, rather than the saying, no, Christians have been called

00:23:42.840 out, ecclesia called out of the world as it pertains to the world being defined as this

00:23:47.980 this demonic system underneath satan's uh rule that that where he actually takes right our battle

00:23:54.840 is not against flesh and blood but there is a sense in which satan first timothy says he takes

00:23:59.100 people captive to do his will and we've been called out of that we've been called out of this

00:24:04.320 system but not called out of this creation this cosmos which i believe is not giving way to the

00:24:11.860 sons of God, but it's being restored right alongside the sons of God. Am I on the right

00:24:18.680 track with that? Yes, absolutely. Scripture does recognize two kingdoms, the kingdom of darkness

00:24:25.720 and the kingdom of light. That's it. And they are operative. That's the way of grace and the way of

00:24:32.540 rebellion. And they are operative in every domain of creation. So you cannot flee from one domain

00:24:39.580 of creation into another for safety this is what uh you were talking about with these dark corners

00:24:45.180 the thought that well if i you know politics is is uh you know or culture education these areas are

00:24:52.460 uh uh part of a a broken natural world and and therefore we need to you know flee the arts

00:25:00.540 flee politics flee law leave that to nature leave that to natural law to the way of decay we belong

00:25:08.460 in the realm of grace an upper story of reality and so you've got a notion there that you can flee

00:25:14.140 one domain of creation into another in order to have freedom or salvation or liberation

00:25:21.600 and of course that ends up as you've described it demonizing the world right um and the world

00:25:27.540 becomes in used in the term the sense that you used it that's why when i talked about creation

00:25:33.420 what what these uh these theologies do and i think it's a it's a it's a serious mistake

00:25:39.480 is they they're fundamentally dualistic so what they do is they drive a wedge between creation

00:25:45.460 and redemption there's a radical duality drawn between creation and redemption now i think from

00:25:52.240 a biblical perspective uh the the the i talked about the creation being good though marred and

00:25:59.520 that touches every aspect of our lives far as the curse is found you know the great the great the

00:26:05.020 great carol right where redemption is directed to wherever the curse is found that's every domain

00:26:10.380 of creation those post-mill christmas hymns huh perhaps they're they're a thorn in the flesh of

00:26:16.380 some um but uh the the the reality is is that god's creational laws and norms still hold

00:26:27.820 and he has not abandoned his creation and he's not abandoned his law for creation

00:26:33.240 and uh there there basically there are many structures within creation but there are only

00:26:39.380 two possible directions so there's the structure of family and church and state and the and culture

00:26:44.380 and business and economics and aesthetics and all these different structures that god has given

00:26:49.300 within the within the within the the goodness goodness of his creation law word and they have

00:26:55.720 are all being misdirected because of sin so all the good things that god has created these laws

00:27:01.880 and norms are misdirected now you can you know what we might call the what some scientists have

00:27:07.120 tried to call natural laws which is just god's ordinary way of working right uh cannot be violated

00:27:13.420 uh you know you you try and violate the law of gravity you're going to hit the ground

00:27:17.900 and that's that god's the norms that god has established for creation are juridical and moral

00:27:26.060 and and uh cultural norms and so forth these can be violated and that's what misdirects our lives

00:27:32.180 and so what is going on with redemption is the redirection and the reconciliation if you think

00:27:38.720 about all of the different words that the bible uses for the meaning of salvation and redemption

00:27:44.280 it's redemption regeneration restoration renewal and and so on it all presupposes that something

00:27:55.980 is lost something's broken and it's being recovered and restored not abandoned right

00:28:02.240 and that's i think the critical difference you're right in saying that some of the two kingdoms

00:28:06.120 advocates they really do um you you just about escape creation with your physical body because

00:28:13.260 jesus did right and if you denied that then you're into full-blown gnosticism or some kind of

00:28:18.740 doceticism or whatever um uh but it's a failure to recognize the unity of creation and the

00:28:26.220 fact that creation redemption stand in historical continuity and it's the result of the importation

00:28:32.620 actually of greek philosophical categories into the christian faith and a nature grace dualism

00:28:39.900 a scholastic dualism it's like a double-decker bus is the way i often describe it you know a

00:28:44.780 two-story bus like the famous london red bus you need a story and a lower story and on the lower

00:28:51.580 story you've got you know law politics culture education all the aspects of culture if you will

00:28:58.860 that's the lowest story that's the realm of nature that runs just in terms of basically natural law

00:29:05.460 um common uh common grace uh and then you have an upper story which is the really important stuff

00:29:14.360 and that's your personal salvation your personal devotional life your personal piety and the life

00:29:20.360 of the church that's the realm of grace and the best that the church can do as the kingdom

00:29:25.560 really uh is to sprinkle the pixie dust of the church on the lower story a bit

00:29:31.080 to make life a bit better uh but actually in this life uh you know it's very aristotelian

00:29:38.080 it's it's the state it's that realm of nature that brings you to the highest degree of moral

00:29:42.220 perfection but in order to reach salvation and to escape this world uh and to get out of it

00:29:48.520 uh you need redemption in jesus christ and that's why you'll find among some of those thinkers a

00:29:54.620 tremendous opposition to christian education a christian view of politics you know there'll be

00:29:59.180 jokes like you know there's no such thing as a as a christian stir fry or christian plumbing

00:30:04.700 um those sorts of jibes um you know because for them christianity is about this spiritual

00:30:12.220 private upper story of existence and all this other stuff that's just common uh to everyone

00:30:21.400 So instead of seeing a basic unity of creation and redemption and seeing the issue of structure and direction, there are all these created structures that believers and non-believers operate in together.

00:30:32.940 But there are two directions, redemption and apostasy, belief and unbelief.

00:30:41.960 And that motive force is put into action in every single area of life.

00:30:49.180 there is no neutral sphere right the realm of nature is not some neutral area where reason

00:30:55.460 as far as it goes is all you need that's the right at the beginning you talked about the

00:31:00.740 sufficiency of scripture this the problem is that there's an attempt here to synthesize

00:31:05.820 greek philosophy with biblical christianity and it leads to a dualistic worldview

00:31:12.880 and that's where all of the i mean there are varieties of two kingdoms views you've mentioned

00:31:18.600 van droon and there's other nuanced ones i debated matthew tuninger a few years ago

00:31:23.460 um and uh there's uh michael horton as well right there's nuances and then of course you've got the

00:31:29.280 anabaptists so you've got a different forms of of radical two kingdoms views so it's important

00:31:35.080 sometimes in that discussion to say which one are they actually which exponent which version are we

00:31:40.400 actually dealing with but they all share that in common that they want to break up reality and

00:31:46.880 creation into parts one part for the world and nature and reason and one part for god right

00:31:53.700 that's that's so helpful and it sounds like part of what you're getting at and you you mentioned

00:31:56.940 this earlier is we do believe there are two kingdoms but the question is what is the distinction

00:32:02.460 between the two kingdoms what do they represent um and then also i love you know doug famously

00:32:07.240 said years ago when someone was asking him about two kingdom theology he said well i'm not really

00:32:11.920 concerned at how many kingdoms there are as as much as i'm concerned how many kings there are

00:32:16.040 you know, there's one king. But it sounds like what you're saying is that the two kingdom

00:32:21.280 advocate is going to draw the line between these two kingdoms in regards to the natural and the

00:32:27.960 spiritual, the common and the sacred, whereas scripture draws the line between simply light

00:32:34.340 and dark. So it's two kingdoms, light and dark. Whereas, so the scripture draws the line,

00:32:41.940 the distinction between what is good and what is bad, what is moral and immoral, light and dark,

00:32:49.220 true and false. Whereas over here with the two kingdom advocate, they want to draw it between

00:32:56.700 parts. They want to divide up human society and life, human life. They want to divide up

00:33:03.300 sections rather than goodness, inherent goodness, God's truth and falsehoods. They want to draw the

00:33:11.560 distinction between common things and sacred things, uh, natural things and spiritual things,

00:33:17.440 uh, what they would say are temporal things versus eternal things. And even there we would,

00:33:22.980 we would push back as well and say, some of the things that you were saying are temporal. Um,

00:33:28.000 I don't believe the scripture actually would be in your corner. Um, is that, so would you agree 1.00

00:33:33.380 with that? It's, it's, it's not two kingdoms. And then, and then our position is that there aren't

00:33:37.720 two kingdoms but it's where how are we defining these two kingdoms yes yes the light the light

00:33:43.880 and the darkness represent the two directions that we we talked about the the distinction between the

00:33:49.420 structure they can they conflate structure and direction they want to say that these structures

00:33:54.480 themselves are uh they're done with they are temporal their um creation itself as as we know

00:34:02.980 it belongs to a lesser or a lower realm than the realm of grace and redemption and so instead of

00:34:10.940 seeing a unity to the plan of redemption reconciliation for all of life in all of

00:34:15.640 creation that christ is reconciling to himself yes creation is broken up one way or another

00:34:21.280 into parts and history is broken up into a multiplicity of parts oftentimes as well

00:34:26.280 so that some would say there's sort of there's the redemptive kingdom and there's the common

00:34:30.880 kingdom right um and so various divisions are bought but you're you're right instead of

00:34:36.800 recognizing there is structure creational structure and there is direction light and darkness

00:34:41.440 for christ against christ faithful unfaithful um true false true false right and and that leads

00:34:51.900 to other dichotomies as well joel so it leads to your your matter spirit uh or you know the duality

00:35:00.200 uh a radical law gospel duality um a radical uh church state uh confusion and duality so

00:35:10.840 rather than recognizing that the totalizing principle in scripture is the kingdom of god

00:35:15.960 rooted in the lord jesus christ uh there there are attempts to find a part of creation that that is

00:35:24.260 the it's a kind of reductionistic process really you find a bit of creation that's most important

00:35:30.080 and then you invest your energies there rather than recognizing that all of creation is subject

00:35:35.080 to Christ, is being reconciled to God. That's really good. So that, that kind of leads into

00:35:41.580 a second question, if we could not really even shifting gears, but just further fleshing this

00:35:46.320 out. So I'll just be frank, the gospel coalition. So I'm not a big fan, but the, you know, the

00:35:53.260 gospel coalition, some of our listeners will be hearing what you're saying. And I think they're

00:35:56.620 going to have certain alarms going off. And because, and I know that because if I was having

00:36:00.960 this conversation with you, even just a couple of years ago, I would be a little bit wary because I,

00:36:06.580 you know, so I was in Acts 29 for about four and a half years as a pastor with Acts 29. I left with

00:36:11.920 some of the, you know, woke church being written by Eric Mason and the direction that things were

00:36:16.600 going. It just felt like, man, these guys, it just seems like they're just water carriers for

00:36:20.420 the political left. And, uh, and I don't really want to, to be about that. Um, but, but what I

00:36:26.220 initially did, this was maybe three, four years ago is I put the blame on Kuyperianism. Um, so I, 0.99

00:36:33.140 I was like that the problem here is just too much involvement in the culture. The problem here is,

00:36:39.260 um, and, and so my point is that there are listeners who, who, who might be falling right

00:36:43.340 now and what they've done to try to avoid involvement with, with some of these, these

00:36:51.300 very well, I, you know, just Marxist mark, you know, bearing the name of Christ, you know, and

00:36:59.920 some of them may be true brothers in Christ and they're just, just off and left field and Christ 0.54

00:37:04.560 will grant repentance. And then others may we find on, on the final day, we're actually false

00:37:09.480 brothers and that's for the Lord to decide. But, but I think there's so much concern right now in

00:37:14.720 the church. And I think of John MacArthur, thank God for, for him and his ministry and his

00:37:18.660 faithfulness over the years. But I think a lot of guys are going that direction and just saying,

00:37:23.400 you know what, the easiest way to divide and make things clear, clear categories is just

00:37:27.660 Christ, not Caesar's head of the church. Whereas I know you and I would both say amen. And,

00:37:32.540 and also Christ, not Caesar's head of the state and Christ, not, not the father is head of the

00:37:37.860 family. Christ is the head of all things. Ephesians, I believe, 122, Christ has been appointed by God

00:37:43.840 as head of all things to the benefit of the church. And that's not to say Christ is the head

00:37:48.320 of all institutions in the same way that he's head of the church. He's uniquely the head of

00:37:52.860 the church in the sense that he only has given his life up for his bride for the church, but he is

00:37:59.020 head insofar as that is a governmental rule and reign over all things to uniquely benefit his

00:38:06.000 church and and so anyway my point is that um you know i there's a bad taste in my mouth with the

00:38:11.100 gospel coalition there's a bad taste in my mouth with acts 29 and some of these these christian

00:38:15.960 groups that have been involved in political matters involved in cultural matters but always

00:38:21.760 always with a with a left bent a a a democratic um a bent towards neo-marxism and and critical

00:38:31.240 race theory and intersectionality and socialism, you know, and, and all these things. And so I think

00:38:36.640 a lot of people, the remedy, the solution has been embracing a two kingdom kind of doctrine.

00:38:43.080 And, and so, so one of the things that you've mentioned that was really helpful for me is

00:38:47.960 saying that there are basically two ditches on either side of the road that the Christian can

00:38:51.620 fall into. One is the social justice ditch, which is seemingly Kuyperian, but, but it puts all its

00:39:00.620 hope and faith in the state, one sphere to solve the problems, and it's just substituted social

00:39:06.640 justice for biblical justice. So it's not even trying to apply in terms of the sufficiency of

00:39:11.200 scripture. They're all about sufficiency, but it's sufficiency of something else. It's not the

00:39:15.280 sufficiency of scripture. I don't know what Bible they're reading, but it doesn't have the biblical

00:39:19.880 principles that the Bible actually contains. But then on the other side, if we're not careful

00:39:25.480 in trying to avoid that gospel coalition, Acts 29, these kinds of things, there's the other

00:39:35.840 ditch on the other side of the road, which is just this pietism of, you know, that Jesus is only Lord

00:39:41.760 of my heart. It's a privatized lordship of Christ. And so I guess what I'm asking is, because I have

00:39:48.780 even close friends who would put Kuyper in a very negative category. And, but, but I, I'm looking

00:39:55.700 and I'm saying they got Kuyper wrong. These guys are not a good representation of Kuyper. So could

00:40:00.120 you help us in, we want to avoid, we've talked about the two kingdom thing, but we don't want

00:40:04.480 to, we don't want to, you know, the Ezra Institute to just be the gospel coalition 2.0.

00:40:09.000 Um, so, so what, what is this, what is this, you know, uh, safe path in between, uh, the,

00:40:17.720 the privatized lordship to kingdom kind of idea, uh, versus this Neo Kuyperianism, uh, putting

00:40:23.900 all of our hope in the state with, with social justice and intersectionality and very leftist

00:40:29.100 Marxist socialistic principles. What, what can you speak to that for a moment?

00:40:34.460 Yeah. So, yes. First of all, and I think you have rightly identified it, that's to get Kuyper wrong, to assume that he would be somehow, or Kuyper, as he understood his project in identifying a biblical principle of sphere sovereignty, was actually identifying the very opposite of the two kingdoms mentality.

00:41:02.560 the the principle of sphere sovereignty is that christ is lord and king over all things over

00:41:10.060 everything and that he has established various spheres of authority within creation uh and in

00:41:17.900 within human institutions various spheres and jurisdictions which uh need to function in terms

00:41:23.640 of god's word for them and uh of course the primary reference there is to scripture itself

00:41:31.560 so we can all see that we wouldn't govern our family as we would govern the state uh it's not

00:41:38.200 the the the guiding um principle in the life of the family is is the love relationship and of

00:41:44.580 course that does involve discipline and so forth but it's not the kind of uh you know if if fathers

00:41:49.820 were executing their their uh their rebellious children um in the home uh and that became known

00:41:57.180 to the church, that would be a problem. In the same way, the government of the family isn't

00:42:02.420 identical to the government of the church. There are similarities, but I can't excommunicate my

00:42:08.780 wife from the Lord's table. These are distinct spheres of authority. And we intuitively know

00:42:16.380 as Christians who are subject to the word of God, when one is overreaching the other.

00:42:20.180 so Kuyper's concern was to say Christ is king overall God's word must govern everything and

00:42:27.240 God has established his law word for these different areas of life and they delimit one

00:42:33.000 another and that prevents there being any kind of totalitarian absolutizing of any sphere of life

00:42:40.560 if you absolutize the family what do you get you get a mafia where blood is everything right where

00:42:46.640 It's more important than the state, and it's not the rule of law,

00:42:49.960 and it's actually just about love.

00:42:51.280 A mafia.

00:42:51.840 You said you're like a mafia, and I was like, what's a mafia?

00:42:55.460 A mafia is at least the Texan version.

00:42:58.460 That's how we say it.

00:42:59.020 Go ahead.

00:42:59.520 Sorry.

00:43:00.940 If you absolutize the church, what have you got?

00:43:03.780 Well, you've got an ecclesiocracy.

00:43:04.980 You have the situation that held for much of the medieval period,

00:43:09.300 where the church is trying to rule and regulate through its own clergy

00:43:13.880 and church in every area of life.

00:43:15.520 If you absolutize the state, what do you get? Well, you get statism, you get collectivism, totalitarianism. Totalitarianism fundamentally is one institution trying to treat the others in parts to whole fashion.

00:43:30.340 So the church, the medieval church is trying to say, look, the church is the all encompassing institution and we're going to anoint various princes and kings and we're in charge. 0.89

00:43:40.040 And the state, which has been the primary offender historically, especially within, you look throughout pagan history, you look at the Bible, Egypt, Babylon, Persia, the Roman world, the emperor cult, you see that the state is the one that has wanted to, before the actual birth of the first truly free institution in the Western world, the church, the pagan state was everything. 0.56

00:44:03.740 That was the view of Socrates, of Plato, of Aristotle. The state is the ultimate organizing, overarching institution. 0.86

00:44:13.800 And that's, wouldn't you say that's where, if anything, that's the category that we're in currently?

00:44:17.980 That's where we are now. In our abandonment of the Christian faith and the principle of sphere sovereignty, we've reached this point where mediating institutions leave us, are weakened or disappear.

00:44:28.340 and they leave us naked before an all-powerful state which treats all of these things as lesser

00:44:33.820 parts of itself whereas the real parts of the state are actually provinces and municipalities

00:44:39.720 and families and churches are on the state a given territory but they're not parts of the state

00:44:46.420 right so that's what sphere sovereignty is about it's trying to recognize the authority of christ

00:44:52.480 and the rule of Christ's word in each of those areas.

00:44:58.480 Now, the ditch on both sides of the road

00:45:00.920 is exactly what the sphere of sovereignty is trying to avoid.

00:45:04.900 And you've talked about the heart a couple of times

00:45:06.960 in the way in which contemporary evangelicalism

00:45:10.240 has tended to think about it in terms of pietism.

00:45:12.840 It's sort of me and Jesus.

00:45:13.840 It's my emotional life, my personal spiritual life.

00:45:16.300 But biblically, the heart is a really important concept.

00:45:19.840 it's the root of the human person uh in a certain sense heart and spirit are used

00:45:27.320 interchangeably the heart is the the the eye it's the center it's the ego out of the heart

00:45:34.900 spring the issues of life scripture says jesus talks about the heart being the root

00:45:38.880 of of course of sin and rebellion it's also where the renewal goes on with the work of the holy

00:45:45.900 spirit so the heart is the root unity it's the it's the central total aspect of the life of the

00:45:53.480 person uh think about it like the palm of a hand this this is the heart this is kind of pre-functional

00:45:59.180 and these are the various functions of our hearts you know our reasoning our emotions and various

00:46:04.660 other aspects of the human person but the root unity is the heart and when our hearts are

00:46:12.760 transformed and regenerate, that is going to affect not just my church life, not just my

00:46:18.880 personal spirituality, but every single aspect of my life because a total renovation has gone on

00:46:27.000 in the root of the human person. So when we think about the kingdom of God again,

00:46:32.640 it's transformed the transformation of people at the root of their being. And not the state,

00:46:37.700 not the church, not the family is the totalizing reality. It's the kingdom of God.

00:46:42.760 And so transformed people apply, at the root of their being, apply the radicality of the word of God in the totality of Christ's kingdom, which encompasses every single aspect of life.

00:46:57.980 And so that eliminates the problem of flight into one or this area or that area.

00:47:04.480 Now, in pietism, what's going on, the one ditch is that the faith aspect of our lives, our personal confession, our personal devotions, which are important in our church life, are being absolutized. 0.66

00:47:18.380 That's all that matters.

00:47:19.760 Right.

00:47:20.700 And so everything else is reduced in its significance or even regarded as insignificant.

00:47:26.580 uh culture education all they just don't really matter that much because all that matters is this

00:47:32.820 faith aspect of my life um in in the social justice movement uh and the influence it's had

00:47:41.620 on some of the uh the church movements you've talked about right um the uh what's going on

00:47:48.220 there in the in its most radical form is actually the state is being absolutized and the state

00:47:53.220 not the church is being identified with the kingdom of god that's right that's exactly what

00:47:57.860 it is i couldn't articulate it but you're right yeah yeah and the state is then seen as the

00:48:02.740 institution that brings about the reality of the kingdom in the world and this of course is

00:48:08.620 directly related to the nature grace um uh division uh as well um we we end up in a situation

00:48:18.320 where what happens is and with often that you mentioned faithful christians oftentimes who are

00:48:24.540 confused instead of recognizing that the word of god and the authority of the word of god must

00:48:31.920 govern the state as well the god's law word must also govern the state just as it governs the

00:48:38.720 family the individual the church separation of church and state doesn't mean a separation of

00:48:43.800 god in state precisely there is a law it's either god's law or man's law so like i mean what should

00:48:49.060 civil matches of course they have to legislate god's law there's neutrality is a myth you're

00:48:53.560 always legislating morality imposing one set of moral principles on on another and so what i mean

00:49:01.860 what can the christian say other than yeah we the state should should legislate christianly

00:49:07.620 i don't i don't know what other option there is which to me there isn't another option that goes

00:49:11.980 back to the Great Commission, which we always forget this, but it's, you know, we go, so that's

00:49:16.380 at least four commands, to go to make disciples, to baptize them into the name of the triune God,

00:49:21.760 but then also to teach them to obey all of Christ's commands. And we were saying this before

00:49:25.700 we started recording, but the Apostle Paul also talks about remaining in the station where the

00:49:31.100 Lord has providentially assigned you before conversion. And this could, you know, refer to

00:49:36.160 being in an unequally yoked marriage with an unbeliever, which he does that explicitly. 0.51

00:49:43.280 But this also very likely can regard vocation. And I think one of the problems that I've seen 0.95

00:49:50.440 is some of the most successful individuals who come to Christ, the Lord saves them,

00:49:56.260 because of this two kingdom privatized, you know, only the spiritual matters,

00:50:00.660 um they they they are men with ambition they're men with gifts and and unique talents and and

00:50:07.800 incredibly gifted with leadership they come to christ and because um they've been taught by

00:50:13.820 evangelicals what what's the first thing they do right they're a hedge fund manager um they quit

00:50:18.820 and become a pastor they're you know they're in the arts they quit and become and so it's like

00:50:22.520 we forfeited all this ground um and and so anyway so all that means if we remain in each station

00:50:29.320 and the Lord saves like jailers,

00:50:32.620 like he did with the apostle Paul

00:50:34.040 and he remains in that station.

00:50:35.640 And he saves, if he saves civil magistrates and governors

00:50:39.800 and if he saves artists

00:50:41.380 and if he saves doctors and teachers

00:50:44.660 and all these different things.

00:50:46.660 And then, you know, if the Lord saves them,

00:50:49.180 we actually make disciples of the nations

00:50:51.340 and make disciples of individuals in different spheres

00:50:54.700 and different vocations within nations.

00:50:56.700 He saves mothers and fathers.

00:50:58.120 and then we fulfill the Great Commission,

00:51:00.780 the last part, which is to teach them

00:51:02.200 to obey all of Christ's commands,

00:51:04.380 then I don't know what other logical conclusion 0.98

00:51:06.580 we can have other than Christian schools,

00:51:09.280 Christian governments, Christian art.

00:51:11.300 And so for me, the last kind of thing that I'm thinking

00:51:13.900 is I think there are some guys who would be persuaded

00:51:16.440 by this point in our conversation and say,

00:51:18.720 okay, yeah, I get why the two kingdom thing is a problem

00:51:21.040 and I get why the privatized lordship pietism is a problem,

00:51:24.480 um but but they but they they can't quite embrace a post-mill paradigm they can't quite embrace

00:51:32.880 that there'll be a christian government not because they have a theological category against

00:51:36.760 it we've won them over by this point i'm speaking to that hypothetical section of the audience but

00:51:42.140 they still don't think it's going to happen because and i said this before we started recording

00:51:46.300 because they're committed to losing it seems like one of the ways that people escape the idea

00:51:50.800 of a Christian government, or they escape the idea of Christian education, if we persuade them

00:51:57.380 that they can't do it theologically, then the way that they do it is they say, yeah, well, you're

00:52:02.440 right. People do remain in their stations and the sufficiency of scripture applies to every realm

00:52:07.900 of life. And the great commission includes teaching people to obey all of Christ's commands and Christ's

00:52:12.260 commands have application in every sphere. You're right about all of that. But the reason this still

00:52:17.080 won't conclude, it won't culminate in Christian government and Christian education and these kinds

00:52:22.360 of things is because we will lose. They're so tightly committed to losing. And so I feel like 0.91

00:52:30.560 the two kingdom thing has to be opposed on the one hand. And then the next thing that has to be

00:52:35.680 opposed systematically as we win people over to the rock that breaks the statue and grows into a

00:52:42.480 mountain as we win them over to that position. First, we have to attack pietism and two-kingdomism 0.97

00:52:47.740 and statism. But then we have to, I feel like as some, we have to address dispensationalism and

00:52:54.140 premillennialism, this losing mindset. It's like the moment that Christians start to experience 0.97

00:53:01.220 some kind of victory, it's almost like they start, they intrinsically feel guilty. Uh-oh, 0.98

00:53:06.840 we must be doing something wrong. Let's make sure to pull some punches because we've got to

00:53:12.080 we've got to lose uh so so in concluding our conversation could you speak to that a little

00:53:17.980 bit dr boot yeah i think uh the way you've sort of summarized that is is um is linked to what we

00:53:26.720 were saying about uh church and state and you know you can you can separate the jurisdiction

00:53:32.640 of church and state you can't separate religion and the state right every state uh is going to

00:53:38.480 be governed by a given world and life view. The irony of this situation is that when we refuse

00:53:44.740 to bring political life, law, education, all these things that you've just mentioned under the word

00:53:50.460 of God, that's why you find these different people in these areas pursuing social justice,

00:53:58.180 neo-Marxist ideas, and so forth in those different spheres, because they don't actually believe the

00:54:03.840 fullness of the word of god applies to those areas of life therefore the status quo or the latest

00:54:09.320 idea or the thing that seems popular uh justice gets redefined love gets redefined for the political

00:54:16.440 for the cultural uh truth is redefined in the educational sphere doesn't need to be brought

00:54:22.340 under the lordship of jesus christ because it's just not that area is simply not that important

00:54:27.340 um so and and and i think that is linked uh fundamentally to what you've just said about

00:54:36.640 theologies of failure and theologies of defeat there is a reason why you know it's interesting

00:54:43.940 to track the the history of the development of eschatological perspectives um because they often

00:54:49.880 track with historical trends that are confronting the church. And, you know, in the 20th century

00:54:57.940 with two world wars, a kind of pessimism began to really take over. And that was when that was

00:55:06.340 the sort of the high point of the dispensational hermeneutic and theologies of escape and retreat.

00:55:13.540 and i think in many respects the two kingdoms ideas are have been sort of redeployed and some

00:55:20.960 of them are quite novel because christians are casting about for a theological framework that

00:55:28.000 will justify our sense of defeat and failure that's exactly it and the decline of our culture

00:55:33.480 well and and will actually maybe even excuse us of our accountability and responsibility that's

00:55:40.000 right absolve us of our guilt you're right that's exactly what it is it's it's uh rather than saying

00:55:44.580 the church failed it's it's one is well this is this is jesus's plan right like we have to lose

00:55:51.180 because who's going to persecute us we got to have someone to persecute us so that we can do

00:55:54.960 something with all these texts you know that yeah yeah and i think that and here's here's where i

00:56:00.760 would just sort of conclude the point uh and i because i think there's a d there's a deeper

00:56:06.300 problem at work and that is that we associate power uh with the demonic so we think somehow

00:56:18.140 that you know it's it's fine to talk about um uh power in the in the church power and authority

00:56:27.160 in the life of the church um and uh power uh it's permissible to to talk about justice and love and

00:56:37.080 and these kinds of principles in the in the life of the church but as soon as you talk about power

00:56:42.280 and associate the christian with power well you must have lent your ears to the devil you're right

00:56:48.180 because you cannot equate christ the christian with power but and yet the bible god is omnipotent

00:56:58.820 he's the all-powerful one uh and christ is the one who's been given all power and authority

00:57:06.260 power has nothing inherently demonic in it that's right it's not power itself that's the problem

00:57:12.440 it's our use of power it's as the structure and direction issue comes back again the problem is

00:57:18.920 not power the problem is not christians in power because you're right what will often be pointed

00:57:22.240 to is you know i'm a i'm a fan of the puritans i've spent years um reading the english puritans

00:57:27.880 since i was a seminarian and a reform professor introduced me to them um and uh but it's often

00:57:33.680 said well look you know the puritan experiment failed look at the failure of oliver cromwell

00:57:37.820 uh and or look at even look even at the sort of parallel movement that developed with the

00:57:44.160 Groen van Prinsterer and was followed by Abraham Kuyper in the Netherlands uh look at the Netherlands

00:57:49.060 today it failed and so there's a sense that because human beings in their weakness and sin

00:57:56.460 the Christians have failed in their task or paganism has taken root or apostasy and rebellion

00:58:02.940 has taken root in the churches I mean if you want to look you don't have to look any further than 0.86

00:58:06.760 the apostasy and rebellion of the late 19th century, early 20th century European and North

00:58:12.100 American church and the invasion of liberalism to account for the collapse of mainline churches

00:58:19.020 throughout the Western world. It was the failure and the rebellion of the church.

00:58:27.420 And so the tendency is to equate power with evil, power with the demonic, not recognize that

00:58:33.580 actually power and authority is a is something that's actually given to us jesus says go and

00:58:40.520 wait in jerusalem um until you are endued with power yeah from on high um and christ has all

00:58:50.820 power and authority and it's in his power and authority that we go so the problem we all need

00:58:55.480 power in life uh and all of us are given a certain degree of power we have power in the sense of over

00:59:00.660 our own bodies we have power and authority in the family in the church in our vocations

00:59:04.920 the issue is how is power going to be used and it must be put into the service of christ

00:59:12.000 and of course power in the service of satan is deadly so but this this idea that we must retreat

00:59:18.500 from power and that we must retreat from positions of authority and power um actually results

00:59:26.200 ironically, Joel, in a radically politicized church. Because we deny that Christians should 0.87

00:59:34.440 exercise power and authority in education, in culture, in politics, and so on. And we say 0.98

00:59:40.340 politics doesn't belong in the pulpit. And because we don't bring culture and all these spheres of

00:59:45.400 power under the authority of the word of God, they all go their own way. We ecclesiasticize

00:59:51.300 the Bible, we have a kind of churchianity rather than Christianity. And then all those congregants

00:59:58.000 in our churches who never have the word of God brought to bear on their ideas about politics

01:00:02.800 and culture are radically politicized. And so they run after social justice movements and this

01:00:08.420 and that and the other, and they've got no bearings whatsoever in terms of the kingdom of

01:00:13.820 God around what the word of God says about the exercise of power and authority in all of these

01:00:19.400 other areas of life because we render it all to the world and to the devil you're right that's

01:00:24.060 so good because it is ironic because you would think okay this is the opposite of being overly

01:00:28.740 political because we've ecclesiast ecclesiast ecclesiast yeah ecclesiasticize the bible which

01:00:35.600 just to flesh that out because again your little book for mission some of our listeners may not

01:00:39.860 know what you mean by that but it's it's the difference between here's the question was the

01:00:43.180 bible written to the church or was the bible written to man was it written to to mankind

01:00:47.400 kind. Because we would say that, you know, the moral law of God is binding on every person and

01:00:52.260 every time and every place, right? The 10 commandments are not for Christians. They're 1.00

01:00:56.580 for people. And for Christians, it's a lamp unto our feet. And for people, in kind of the first

01:01:03.420 use of the law, it's a mirror that reflects to them the holiness of God. And by way of contrast,

01:01:07.780 their sin and need for a savior. And then it becomes a lamp unto their feet as well. But the

01:01:13.240 law of God is for everyone. Even the Sabbath, an unbeliever, and this is controversial for a lot

01:01:19.880 of the Baptists that listen to me, but unbelievers will stand before God and be judged for not 0.72

01:01:25.960 keeping the Sabbath and now not keeping the Christian Sabbath. And so the law of God, the 0.94

01:01:32.420 Bible, the word of God, and all of its principles, all of its imperatives, and all of its indicatives

01:01:37.040 are written to people. And the first imperative is that they would repent of their sin and believe

01:01:42.500 the gospel, which is a command. To believe the gospel is a command, and it's a command to all

01:01:47.280 people in all places in all times. And so that ecclesiasticizing of the Bible is precisely the

01:01:53.780 problem, because then Christians think the Bible has something to say to Christians and churches,

01:01:57.920 and it doesn't have anything to say anywhere else. And so what we do is we forfeit all this ground. 0.71

01:02:02.040 So we're at first, at first glance, it's an abdicating of all political activity. But then

01:02:07.780 what it quickly becomes is um well because the bible doesn't speak to those things then each of

01:02:13.060 these spheres outside of the church get to decide what what is what is right um and and then any

01:02:18.780 involvement that we have with these spheres we're now um involving ourselves in in bad politics and

01:02:24.420 in immoral policies and immoral legislation and all these things because again we we have denied

01:02:30.980 the sufficiency of scripture and i i think that that's precisely with the sbc i'll just be frank

01:02:35.440 the SBC won the battle when it came to inerrancy. And I think this was never maybe outright said,

01:02:41.200 but I think that the fine print clause that allowed for them to win against liberalism

01:02:47.320 and I think of Machen, you know, and Christianity and liberalism, I think part of the reason why

01:02:52.520 some mainline denominations and churches and seminaries won that battle against liberalism

01:02:57.980 is because there was a unspoken concession. It was give us inerrancy and we'll forfeit

01:03:05.380 sufficiency. So inerrancy will lose its teeth. It won't bother you. It won't threaten you.

01:03:10.720 You'll be just fine because we're going to say that the Bible is absolutely infallible. It's

01:03:15.260 perfect. Yes, Jesus was born of a virgin. Yes, six days, the word was created. But don't you worry,

01:03:22.280 we will never take these principles. You give us, you concede and say that we can say that

01:03:28.560 these principles are true. And our concession will be that these principles will never be applied.

01:03:34.220 So you let us say they're true

01:03:35.460 and we promise not to apply them.

01:03:37.900 And the state is just fine with that. 0.96

01:03:40.180 The state is fine with, in their perspective, crazy people.

01:03:44.080 So you believe crazy things, that's fine.

01:03:46.180 So long as they're not applied.

01:03:48.620 But the moment that we start to apply them,

01:03:50.600 then it becomes a threat.

01:03:51.540 And I feel like in some ways,

01:03:52.620 Herod understood Jesus, his person, his work, 0.52

01:03:57.560 better than most evangelicals today.

01:04:00.020 When he was born, Herod, he knew that his political power was under threat.

01:04:07.520 It's in the Magnificat.

01:04:08.680 It's right there in the Magnificat.

01:04:10.540 He will pull down rulers from their thrones.

01:04:12.840 That's right.

01:04:13.440 And, you know, I think you've hit on a key point there.

01:04:19.200 This goes back to the issue of power and authority.

01:04:23.300 Defeat is implied there in the fact that if you've restricted biblical inerrancy to the church, essentially,

01:04:30.020 and you've really denied sufficiency, then your loss of the culture is guaranteed.

01:04:35.440 Defeat is fundamentally guaranteed. The material authority of scripture is denied.

01:04:40.980 And as you've said, the word of God is the word of God for all creatures.

01:04:48.860 And of course, specifically because of his unique response ability,

01:04:54.320 because man has a unique ability to respond to the word of God in a particular way,

01:04:58.660 it's given to all people. And you mentioned the first use of the law, of course, Paul also adds

01:05:04.900 in 1 Timothy 1, the law is there to restrain wickedness. It says it's not made for the

01:05:10.280 righteous, but for the wicked. So it's crystal clear in the Bible, it's crystal clear that the

01:05:18.760 word of God is for all of life, for all people. And it's a question of obedience. You know, we are

01:05:24.180 homo respondents we are we we are responding beings and we either respond in obedience

01:05:30.220 and therefore we're believers and we we're we repent and we're regenerate or we are or we

01:05:36.360 respond in rebellion and therefore we're we're at risk of reprobation and uh that's kingdom of

01:05:44.120 darkness and kingdom of light but if we accept an ecclesiasticization of the of the word then we

01:05:52.180 guarantee our cultural defeat and our we will build theologies of failure uh and and and and 0.70

01:05:58.940 retreat that will also justify us in our abandonment of all the areas that christ requires

01:06:05.500 of us obedience and people make this uh frequently make this mistake i'm sometimes accused of it joel

01:06:11.080 you know uh oh this sounds like uh this sounds like you know social gospel nothing could be

01:06:17.120 further from the truth. This is about the lordship of Jesus Christ, the fullness of the gospel of the

01:06:23.180 kingdom, and our faithfulness in its application. And if you don't do it biblically, people will

01:06:30.020 ape it, they will bastardize it, and they'll apply some foreign principles, some foreign idea, 0.93

01:06:36.320 because of course, Christians have to live in the world of culture and education and politics, 0.99

01:06:39.800 and they will be deceived by empty philosophy. You're absolutely right. I love what you said 1.00

01:06:46.300 about the responsibility we were responsible in light of romans one we're responsible because we

01:06:50.160 know people think that you know they often think that ignorance or i'm sorry that rebellion stems

01:06:54.680 from ignorance that people are born ignorant to the truth of god and therefore they choose to

01:06:58.600 rebel when when paul says precisely the opposite is that people are born rebellious uh to the lord

01:07:03.740 and so they take what is and and i love it you said it's crystal clear and it's not just to

01:07:09.100 clarify just a little bit more it's not just that um god has made his principles his truth his word

01:07:14.240 crystal clear to all people, unbelievers and believers alike, it's not just that he has

01:07:19.560 clearly displayed his truth, but Romans one says it's been also not just clearly displayed,

01:07:25.560 but clearly perceived. It actually uses that. So the message has actually been received. So it's

01:07:30.280 not just that God clearly sent out the message, but that all of creation, not just the believer, 0.91

01:07:36.120 but all of creation, the unbeliever from birth, from physical birth has perceived and received

01:07:41.200 the message. And so it's, it's the reason. And responds one way or another. You're right. And 0.97

01:07:46.560 responds one way or another. And so, so rebellion doesn't come out of ignorance. People aren't born

01:07:51.600 ignorant and therefore they rebel because they don't know any better. But people are born rebellious

01:07:55.980 because of the curse of sin. And then what they do in that rebellion is they lie and suppress the

01:08:00.540 truth and deeds of unrighteousness and give way progressively to further ignorance. But their

01:08:05.500 ignorance is a culpable ignorance because it's an ignorance that they have achieved by their

01:08:10.040 willful response yeah so amen finally leaves us uh that's exactly right and um where that leaves

01:08:18.420 them in the absence of the salt and light of the fullness of the kingdom of god is uh with as paul

01:08:25.560 you mentioned paul there and what he says also in romans 1 and and what we see of course in the

01:08:30.040 psalms too about the the creation pouring forth uh the speech that's right yeah uh is uh it leads

01:08:38.500 to um a radically corrupted culture that's exactly what paul says in romans one he says it starts

01:08:44.340 with they exchanged the truth about god for the lie and then they worshiped and served the creature

01:08:51.120 rather than the creator who is blessed forever and that leads so you go from a worship exchange

01:08:57.860 a truth exchange to a worship exchange to a sexual exchange and then you have the kind of laws we're

01:09:03.620 seeing passing in canada now right i just preached on that that last sunday joined you guys in

01:09:07.960 solidarity where you're you are now a criminal to counsel people in terms of god's norms for male

01:09:13.440 and female right but but it's not a it's not a neutral ban people need it's not a neutral ban

01:09:18.440 against persuasion or against encouraging or against pushing um it's only one one way you

01:09:23.240 can encourage the cisgendered heterosexual child all day long um to select another gender and so

01:09:29.780 it's it's always and and i think that's key when i was preaching the texas last sunday and standing

01:09:34.060 in solidarity with you guys and the you know the um freedom coalition canada and james coates and

01:09:39.100 um one of the things that i said is it's it's very particular that paul uses the word exchange

01:09:44.260 right so it's unbelief first and then immediate result is idolatry so first exchange exchanging

01:09:49.600 the truth of god for a lot and then worshiping the creature rather than the creator so it's it's

01:09:53.500 unbelief then it's idolatry but even an unbelief what people need to see is um it's not that they

01:09:58.840 rejected the truth of god and therefore worshiped no they exchanged it and what people need to

01:10:04.020 realize is that if you reject the truth of god there is no neutrality immediately a new truth

01:10:10.000 pseudo truth is believed in its place and so what what creatures always do right in the same way

01:10:15.060 that we are intrinsically designed to be worshipers.

01:10:17.720 If not worshiping God,

01:10:18.980 then we're worshiping something else,

01:10:20.300 namely the creation,

01:10:21.260 because it's the only alternative option.

01:10:23.300 Well, in the same way,

01:10:24.100 that stems from the deeper problem,

01:10:26.300 which is the problem of belief.

01:10:27.920 And in the same way that a person

01:10:29.860 does not have the viable option

01:10:32.000 of opting out of worship.

01:10:33.800 They're going to worship something,

01:10:35.020 either the creator or the creature.

01:10:36.800 Well, that stems, that is true

01:10:39.040 because the person is intrinsically a believer.

01:10:42.660 They must believe in something.

01:10:43.920 And if they don't believe the truth of God, they will not just reject it or deny it.

01:10:47.760 They will exchange it to believe some other narrative, some other truth, whether it be

01:10:53.540 statism, whatever it might be, naturalism.

01:10:57.320 And that's precisely, so the idolatry of exchanging, they are exchanging gods in worship because

01:11:02.780 they exchange narratives.

01:11:04.740 They exchange truths in the realm of belief.

01:11:08.040 And that's where it begins.

01:11:09.400 Do you have any final thoughts for us, Dr. Boot, on this subject?

01:11:12.920 Yes, just on the issue of the way in which, you know, our truncation of the gospel and of the kingdom and of the word of God in all of this affects attitudes towards these kinds of laws that, you know, you were preaching on with us on Sunday.

01:11:29.820 uh when you look at scripture and and you know and i think i i would i would leave this sort of

01:11:36.060 encouragement to your listeners is that to make sure that when we look at scripture we're not

01:11:39.880 just looking at bible verses memorizing bible verses and trying to do doctrine it's a fundamentally

01:11:46.340 the the scripture i mean theology in a sense is an outgrowth of biblical world and life view

01:11:52.140 right there's no neutral theology either you can have some pretty bad theologians

01:11:56.300 you can have liberal theology you know theology is not a safe zone oh I'm going to do I'm going

01:12:02.540 to become a pastor I'm going to do theology because that's a safe place I'm going to leave

01:12:06.420 engineering or medicine or whatever because I'm going to do theology well theology is just one

01:12:11.140 science among many and it can be done obediently and faithfully in terms of a scriptural world and

01:12:16.100 life view or rebelliously and I would I would encourage us to look at these questions that

01:12:22.920 we're facing culture now in terms of that broader biblical world and life view of creation, fall,

01:12:28.140 rebellion, and the consummation of all things in Jesus Christ. That's the lens to which we need to

01:12:33.220 look at these issues. And when you do that in the area of human sexuality, you see how it's central

01:12:37.920 to the life of the gospel. You see how it's central to the gospel of the kingdom because

01:12:41.960 uh the bible begins with a wedding um god uh brings eve to adam and ever since the the we

01:12:53.020 and actually it's reflected right to this day in our marriage traditions the father of the bride

01:12:57.920 brings the bride to the man this reflects actually what happens in redemption where

01:13:05.560 the son and the scripture says about marriage that the the that a man will leave his father

01:13:11.560 and mother and be joined to his wife while the son leaves the father that's right so that he can

01:13:17.280 he can be given a bride by the father that's right and uh israel's relationship to to god

01:13:26.260 is described as a marriage it's an adulterous one on behalf of israel christ comes to us as

01:13:31.840 the bridegroom through the holy family all the the way in which god reveals himself covenantally

01:13:38.680 is in familial terms father and son marriage his first miracle the lord's first miracle is at a

01:13:45.400 wedding the relationship of christ with his church is described as a marriage and history

01:13:50.160 ends in the marriage celebration the marriage supper of the lamb destroy gender destroy male

01:13:58.200 female distinction uh which of course is at the root of our idea of transcendence of holiness

01:14:05.020 distinctness distinction the distinctions that god places within creation he separates light

01:14:11.420 and darkness sea and land the creatures from one another they produce after their kind

01:14:15.720 distinction is basic to god's creation right and it reflects it so marriage becomes one of

01:14:22.280 the cosmological keys to reality to to the cosmos and when we lose it when we lose a grip on it we

01:14:29.560 actually begin to lose our ability and we lose our understanding of male female distinction and

01:14:34.780 marriage we lose our ability to understand the gospel and its meaning so it's all presupposed

01:14:40.880 in uh in in the gospel itself and so i think as we face all these cultural challenges

01:14:48.300 and confront them, we have to recognize that the gospel of the kingdom, which is what Jesus calls

01:14:54.160 it, which is what the Bible calls the gospel, it's not some isolated thing about my soul going to

01:14:58.920 heaven. It's the gospel of the kingdom of God, of the rule and reign of Christ that begins in the

01:15:05.100 root of my own being. And if we understand that, the meaning of the kingdom, then we'll see that

01:15:11.660 this gospel must permeate all these areas of life and if we don't do that Joel if we don't see that

01:15:18.600 permeation into these most fundamental areas that speak of you know Karl Marx understood this well

01:15:24.500 if you want to destroy the holy family you must destroy the earthly family in theory and in

01:15:29.460 practice that's right you want to get rid of God get rid of the earthly family get rid of marriage 0.97

01:15:33.940 destroy it this is an attempt to attack God by attacking his image bearer and it's an assault

01:15:40.400 directly on the gospel and yet so many of our evangelical movements don't see it in fact they

01:15:45.400 they support bans on so-called conversion therapy i think it's a good thing this is actually an

01:15:52.180 anti-conversion law is what it is it's not an anti-conversion therapy law it's an anti-conversion

01:15:57.780 law and so this truncation of the gospel this whole issue that you've dealt with on this program

01:16:02.300 the the the meaning of the gospel of the kingdom comes right home to roost right now for canadian

01:16:09.080 christians but christians across the west increasingly that when you abandon the gospel

01:16:13.980 of the kingdom well you may find yourself locked up in jail for telling your own teaching your own

01:16:22.040 children and counseling your own children that there is male and female and god wants you to be

01:16:26.300 married uh to a man or if you're a woman and to a woman if you're a man uh in in a in a in a

01:16:35.320 covenantal union that recognizes the distinction of god's being reflected in the distinction of

01:16:39.540 male and female and reflect that which reflects the distinction between creator and creature

01:16:44.920 that's how fundamental it is that's why paganism actually that's why homosexuality has been called 0.79

01:16:50.440 the sacrament of monism the the uh basically the sacrament of paganism it's why wherever you see 0.67

01:16:57.820 christianity decline you see a denial of distinctions and you see a worship of creation

01:17:03.700 emerge and with it every form of sexual perversion and deviancy that's why it's arising now because 0.79

01:17:10.800 we have retreated we've abandoned the culture in large measure and we've justified it with

01:17:16.940 theologies of abandonment retreat and defeat and we've said god's law belongs nowhere but between

01:17:22.860 my ears and maybe a little bit in the church and until we recover the fullness of the gospel of

01:17:27.200 the kingdom we're going to still struggle with this but i think there's a window of opportunity

01:17:31.260 and hope here to recover it for this generation so that the future looks different. Amen. Yeah,

01:17:37.500 I think providentially God has been merciful these last couple of years with everything that's gone

01:17:41.700 on and just the massive overreach of the state that a lot of eyes have been opened. And I think

01:17:47.860 our prayer needs to be, you know, a lot of eyes have been opened to the benefits of Christ's

01:17:51.500 principles without paying homage to Christ's person. And, you know, if you embrace the

01:18:00.280 principles of Christ, without the person of Christ, you'll never have the peace of Christ.

01:18:04.920 And so we have Jordan Peterson launching into the stratosphere, Ben Shapiro, all these guys

01:18:09.300 that I'm grateful for in God's common grace. And so I think, at least in America, it seems like

01:18:15.920 we're going to have a red tsunami coming up this year in 2022. But my fear is we've got, as

01:18:25.240 Christians, we've got to show them that the goodness, everything that people love comes from

01:18:30.500 Christ. Every good and perfect gift, it comes from Christ. So thank you so much for your time, Dr.

01:18:35.420 Boot. And we've got a great guest room here in Texas, you know, as Canada continues to lose its

01:18:41.460 ever loving mind, if you ever need to, if you ever need to flee. Well, we've got some, we've got some

01:18:46.900 runners already and more may follow, but it's good to know that we have such good friends to the

01:18:53.840 south and uh watch this space because the ezra institute has some um interesting plans afoot to

01:19:00.580 uh to support our brothers and sisters stateside in in the u.s um and um if people do want to

01:19:08.160 follow up joel with the ezra institute they can find us at ezrainstitute.ca okay um and uh there

01:19:14.240 you can find our resources and books at ezra press uh there's a link off the button off the

01:19:19.380 website there. And if they want to follow us on Facebook and Twitter, Ezra Institute, or follow

01:19:24.080 me on Twitter at Dr. Joe Boot, they can keep up with what we're doing. Great. Thank you so much.

01:19:29.700 That's ezrainstitute.ca. That's right. Okay. Thank you so much. God bless you. God bless you, Joel.

01:19:35.460 Thank you. Thanks so much for listening. But real quick, before you go, do us a small favor,

01:19:40.460 take a moment and leave us a five-star review. If you enjoyed the show, this is undoubtedly the best

01:19:46.560 way that you can help us get this biblically faithful content to as many people as possible.

01:19:51.840 Thanks so much.

The NXR Podcast - July 26, 2022

THEOLOGY APPLIED - Pietists & Progressives： 2 Dying Breeds of Christianity

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