In this episode, Pastor Joel Webin is joined by Dr. Joseph Boot, founder and president of the Ezra Institute, to discuss the dangers of progressive Christians getting liberal with the Word of God and perverting it.
00:02:41.720So founder and president of the Ezra Institute,
00:02:43.760and you've got teaching fellows with the Ezra Institute
00:02:46.700that some of our listeners would probably recognize guys like dr james white is jeff durbin is he one
00:02:52.400of the teaching fellows he is yeah i i think jeff was added uh last year great what what about uh
00:02:59.360doug wilson in moscow idaho uh we don't have doug yet um uh we uh we haven't uh actually
00:03:07.380approached doug about that but it's certainly on our minds great to do so a lot of our listeners
00:03:12.860and myself personally have benefited um greatly from from him from apology you guys yeah go ahead
00:03:19.640we actually did have him we did have him lecturing uh at a couple of recent programs here in canada
00:03:24.680we've had him up actually before and uh last year we had doug we were blessed to have doug remotely
00:03:30.340lecturing to our students so great great we're it's a good it's a great connection so go ahead
00:03:35.820yeah i totally agree so go ahead and explain for our listeners just a little bit of the uh the
00:03:40.020mission of the Ezra Institute? So the Ezra Institute was founded in 2009, so 13 years ago
00:03:48.400now. And our purpose, fundamentally, while we are a, we're a Christian world and life view think
00:03:55.720tank. And our concern is with Christian philosophy and cultural apologetics, and how we apply the
00:04:02.200the biblical world and life view to every aspect of society and culture uh so our our aim is to
00:04:10.420to be able to resort not just speak uh hopefully prophetically really to culture i think that's
00:04:16.380what cultural apologetics actually is it's about bringing the the fullness of the word of god to
00:04:21.680bear on the challenges that face christians in the context of creation so we seek to uh speak to
00:04:30.040the issues of our of our of our time from a distinctly christian perspective and then we try
00:04:35.700and resource uh christians as well through um print and digital resources uh as well as in-person
00:04:43.560uh short-term residential training programs in biblical worldview and and cultural apologetics
00:04:49.120so that's what the ezra institute is uh is about and we have uh we have a journal called jubilee
00:04:55.140that's published tri-annually uh we have a podcast for cultural reformation and our fellows you just
00:05:01.080mentioned some of them um are located um in europe the united states and canada we have 18 uh teaching
00:05:09.180fellows who are engaged with our programming praise god yeah we you know we were trying to
00:05:15.020do something similar i would never you know say that we're doing um as robust of a job as you guys
00:05:22.540are, but that's kind of the vision for this podcast, Theology Applied, that, you know, we don't want to
00:05:26.780just salute the inerrancy of scripture. We want to hold to the sufficiency of scripture. And we want
00:05:31.420to hold for the sufficiency of scripture for every realm of life from all spheres. And so we want to
00:05:38.280teach people to actually apply their theology and not just have that privatized lordship. At some
00:05:43.860point, it seems like in Western culture, Jesus went from being Lord of all to being Lord of our
00:05:48.820sweet little heart. And we want Christ to be Lord of all, and he is Lord of all, whether we want it
00:05:54.800or not, but we want people to embrace that as a wonderful thing and to practically begin to
00:06:00.060actually apply theology to all of life, wield the sword, not just look at it and admire the sword
00:06:05.940from the mantle, but actually wield the sword. So with that being said, one of the questions that I
00:06:10.540had for you, I was telling you as we were getting started and right before we started recording,
00:06:15.120I just listened twice. It was so good. And I wanted to make sure, you know, when you're
00:06:19.240listening to something, you don't always retain quite as much as you do when you read. So I
00:06:22.520listened twice to your short little book called For Mission. It seems like that's probably where
00:06:28.340a lot of those principles are fleshed out further in your mission for God is what I'm assuming.
00:06:34.860And so I would listen to that. It was fantastic. So one of the first questions that I had that
00:06:38.400you addressed in that book sounds simple enough, but I think a lot of Christians,
00:06:42.740including myself, would have difficulty answering this question. What is the kingdom of God? And to
00:06:49.020flesh that question out just a little bit more, what's the difference between the kingdom of God
00:06:53.600and the church, the church growing and the kingdom of God growing? Or another way to put it, what's
00:06:59.280also the distinction between the mission of the church and the mission of individual Christians?
00:07:04.920Your thoughts on that from for mission was just so insightful. So could you explain that to our
00:07:11.240listeners? Yeah, well, you've just drawn a very interesting point there just to begin with when
00:07:17.760you talk about the difference between just affirming the infallibility of Scripture and
00:07:23.960the sufficiency of Scripture, or what we might call the material authority of Scripture. So
00:07:31.600evangelicals historically have been pretty good at talking about the infallibility of Scripture
00:07:37.580or its inerrancy and arguing in a certain sense in the abstract for that where we've I think
00:07:45.420fallen down is in the area of the sufficiency or the material authority of scripture and so
00:07:50.260for mission what I'm trying to do in there is identify the biblical understanding of the kingdom
00:07:58.260of God and the the role of the the Christian and Christian in the context of the family and their
00:08:05.980workplace and the specific calling and role of the church and i think this is where uh one of
00:08:11.600the key problems one of the critical issues actually is found now of confusion in the modern
00:08:17.000church the the um the biblical word for church in the bible is ecclesia and it literally means
00:08:24.860as you know called out a called out people a called out congregation uh and of course that
00:08:32.000calling is for a purpose um and i think you you mentioned there you know how sometimes it's as
00:08:39.520though we've reduced the the christian life to what's going on in our sweet little heart but
00:08:44.440actually just the very word ecclesia uh a called out people um is is a church that is is a people
00:08:52.680a gathered people that are on mission so um ecclesia literally means a called out congregation
00:08:58.480but what are they called out in terms of what what what's the what's the purpose of their
00:09:04.540calling how does their calling fit is the church an end in itself and that's where we encounter
00:09:09.580the other word basileia which is you know the word for kingdom which is so critically important
00:09:16.420which by the way jesus uses many many more times than he ever does uh the word church
00:09:23.500And so perhaps a place to start would be to draw the important distinction between the kingdom of God and the church or even the body of Christ.
00:09:37.940So first of all, let's just mention that even when we talk about church, church is used in a multiplicity of different ways.
00:09:46.980Are we talking about the universal, invisible Church of Christ? Are we talking about the visible Church of Christ in all of history? Are we talking about the Church as it exists today across the world in this moment in time?
00:10:08.500Are we talking about the church as a local gathered congregation or are we talking about the church in Texas or the church in Ontario?
00:10:18.660So the way we use the word church, even certainly we're not simply talking about, are we talking about church as a building, that structure down the end of the street?
00:10:26.380So the way in which the word church is used is often equivocal or ambiguous.
00:10:33.660And that often doesn't help us because it's important that we define church properly.
00:10:38.500or at least qualify the way in which we're talking about it but um from certainly within
00:10:45.380the evangelical reform tradition the church uh is an institute it's a it's a it's a it's a gathered
00:10:53.180people uh under certain offices or authorities so the the church is a form of government
00:11:00.720uh and it has a particular role it has a particular calling which historically has
00:11:06.320been understood certainly by the reformed churches uh following the reformation as the preaching of
00:11:11.840god's word the administration of the sacraments and the exercise of church discipline and some
00:11:18.140would add a certain amount of diaconal care responsibility and those are the uh the sort of
00:11:25.000three four core marks of the church institute now um the fact that we can make a distinction
00:11:33.140between the church institute and the body of Christ
00:11:38.020is actually important in the sense that
00:23:16.340They would say that the creation is what it's really waiting for with the revelation of
00:23:20.760the sons of God is a mercy killing from the Lord. The creation wants to give way, die, disintegrate,
00:23:26.660the earth dissolving like snow, taking a very literal interpretation of that. And so in some
00:23:33.600sense, they would never outright say this, but in some sense, it seems as though they've demonized
00:23:38.060the world as it pertains to the cosmos, rather than the saying, no, Christians have been called
00:23:42.840out, ecclesia called out of the world as it pertains to the world being defined as this
00:23:47.980this demonic system underneath satan's uh rule that that where he actually takes right our battle
00:23:54.840is not against flesh and blood but there is a sense in which satan first timothy says he takes
00:23:59.100people captive to do his will and we've been called out of that we've been called out of this
00:24:04.320system but not called out of this creation this cosmos which i believe is not giving way to the
00:24:11.860sons of God, but it's being restored right alongside the sons of God. Am I on the right
00:24:18.680track with that? Yes, absolutely. Scripture does recognize two kingdoms, the kingdom of darkness
00:24:25.720and the kingdom of light. That's it. And they are operative. That's the way of grace and the way of
00:24:32.540rebellion. And they are operative in every domain of creation. So you cannot flee from one domain
00:24:39.580of creation into another for safety this is what uh you were talking about with these dark corners
00:24:45.180the thought that well if i you know politics is is uh you know or culture education these areas are
00:24:52.460uh uh part of a a broken natural world and and therefore we need to you know flee the arts
00:25:00.540flee politics flee law leave that to nature leave that to natural law to the way of decay we belong
00:25:08.460in the realm of grace an upper story of reality and so you've got a notion there that you can flee
00:25:14.140one domain of creation into another in order to have freedom or salvation or liberation
00:25:21.600and of course that ends up as you've described it demonizing the world right um and the world
00:25:27.540becomes in used in the term the sense that you used it that's why when i talked about creation
00:25:33.420what what these uh these theologies do and i think it's a it's a it's a serious mistake
00:25:39.480is they they're fundamentally dualistic so what they do is they drive a wedge between creation
00:25:45.460and redemption there's a radical duality drawn between creation and redemption now i think from
00:25:52.240a biblical perspective uh the the the i talked about the creation being good though marred and
00:25:59.520that touches every aspect of our lives far as the curse is found you know the great the great the
00:26:05.020great carol right where redemption is directed to wherever the curse is found that's every domain
00:26:10.380of creation those post-mill christmas hymns huh perhaps they're they're a thorn in the flesh of
00:26:16.380some um but uh the the the reality is is that god's creational laws and norms still hold
00:26:27.820and he has not abandoned his creation and he's not abandoned his law for creation
00:26:33.240and uh there there basically there are many structures within creation but there are only
00:26:39.380two possible directions so there's the structure of family and church and state and the and culture
00:26:44.380and business and economics and aesthetics and all these different structures that god has given
00:26:49.300within the within the within the the goodness goodness of his creation law word and they have
00:26:55.720are all being misdirected because of sin so all the good things that god has created these laws
00:27:01.880and norms are misdirected now you can you know what we might call the what some scientists have
00:27:07.120tried to call natural laws which is just god's ordinary way of working right uh cannot be violated
00:27:13.420uh you know you you try and violate the law of gravity you're going to hit the ground
00:27:17.900and that's that god's the norms that god has established for creation are juridical and moral
00:27:26.060and and uh cultural norms and so forth these can be violated and that's what misdirects our lives
00:27:32.180and so what is going on with redemption is the redirection and the reconciliation if you think
00:27:38.720about all of the different words that the bible uses for the meaning of salvation and redemption
00:27:44.280it's redemption regeneration restoration renewal and and so on it all presupposes that something
00:27:55.980is lost something's broken and it's being recovered and restored not abandoned right
00:28:02.240and that's i think the critical difference you're right in saying that some of the two kingdoms
00:28:06.120advocates they really do um you you just about escape creation with your physical body because
00:28:13.260jesus did right and if you denied that then you're into full-blown gnosticism or some kind of
00:28:18.740doceticism or whatever um uh but it's a failure to recognize the unity of creation and the
00:28:26.220fact that creation redemption stand in historical continuity and it's the result of the importation
00:28:32.620actually of greek philosophical categories into the christian faith and a nature grace dualism
00:28:39.900a scholastic dualism it's like a double-decker bus is the way i often describe it you know a
00:28:44.780two-story bus like the famous london red bus you need a story and a lower story and on the lower
00:28:51.580story you've got you know law politics culture education all the aspects of culture if you will
00:28:58.860that's the lowest story that's the realm of nature that runs just in terms of basically natural law
00:29:05.460um common uh common grace uh and then you have an upper story which is the really important stuff
00:29:14.360and that's your personal salvation your personal devotional life your personal piety and the life
00:29:20.360of the church that's the realm of grace and the best that the church can do as the kingdom
00:29:25.560really uh is to sprinkle the pixie dust of the church on the lower story a bit
00:29:31.080to make life a bit better uh but actually in this life uh you know it's very aristotelian
00:29:38.080it's it's the state it's that realm of nature that brings you to the highest degree of moral
00:29:42.220perfection but in order to reach salvation and to escape this world uh and to get out of it
00:29:48.520uh you need redemption in jesus christ and that's why you'll find among some of those thinkers a
00:29:54.620tremendous opposition to christian education a christian view of politics you know there'll be
00:29:59.180jokes like you know there's no such thing as a as a christian stir fry or christian plumbing
00:30:04.700um those sorts of jibes um you know because for them christianity is about this spiritual
00:30:12.220private upper story of existence and all this other stuff that's just common uh to everyone
00:30:21.400So instead of seeing a basic unity of creation and redemption and seeing the issue of structure and direction, there are all these created structures that believers and non-believers operate in together.
00:30:32.940But there are two directions, redemption and apostasy, belief and unbelief.
00:30:41.960And that motive force is put into action in every single area of life.
00:30:49.180there is no neutral sphere right the realm of nature is not some neutral area where reason
00:30:55.460as far as it goes is all you need that's the right at the beginning you talked about the
00:31:00.740sufficiency of scripture this the problem is that there's an attempt here to synthesize
00:31:05.820greek philosophy with biblical christianity and it leads to a dualistic worldview
00:31:12.880and that's where all of the i mean there are varieties of two kingdoms views you've mentioned
00:31:18.600van droon and there's other nuanced ones i debated matthew tuninger a few years ago
00:31:23.460um and uh there's uh michael horton as well right there's nuances and then of course you've got the
00:31:29.280anabaptists so you've got a different forms of of radical two kingdoms views so it's important
00:31:35.080sometimes in that discussion to say which one are they actually which exponent which version are we
00:31:40.400actually dealing with but they all share that in common that they want to break up reality and
00:31:46.880creation into parts one part for the world and nature and reason and one part for god right
00:31:53.700that's that's so helpful and it sounds like part of what you're getting at and you you mentioned
00:31:56.940this earlier is we do believe there are two kingdoms but the question is what is the distinction
00:32:02.460between the two kingdoms what do they represent um and then also i love you know doug famously
00:32:07.240said years ago when someone was asking him about two kingdom theology he said well i'm not really
00:32:11.920concerned at how many kingdoms there are as as much as i'm concerned how many kings there are
00:32:16.040you know, there's one king. But it sounds like what you're saying is that the two kingdom
00:32:21.280advocate is going to draw the line between these two kingdoms in regards to the natural and the
00:32:27.960spiritual, the common and the sacred, whereas scripture draws the line between simply light
00:32:34.340and dark. So it's two kingdoms, light and dark. Whereas, so the scripture draws the line,
00:32:41.940the distinction between what is good and what is bad, what is moral and immoral, light and dark,
00:32:49.220true and false. Whereas over here with the two kingdom advocate, they want to draw it between
00:32:56.700parts. They want to divide up human society and life, human life. They want to divide up
00:33:03.300sections rather than goodness, inherent goodness, God's truth and falsehoods. They want to draw the
00:33:11.560distinction between common things and sacred things, uh, natural things and spiritual things,
00:33:17.440uh, what they would say are temporal things versus eternal things. And even there we would,
00:33:22.980we would push back as well and say, some of the things that you were saying are temporal. Um,
00:33:28.000I don't believe the scripture actually would be in your corner. Um, is that, so would you agree1.00
00:33:33.380with that? It's, it's, it's not two kingdoms. And then, and then our position is that there aren't
00:33:37.720two kingdoms but it's where how are we defining these two kingdoms yes yes the light the light
00:33:43.880and the darkness represent the two directions that we we talked about the the distinction between the
00:33:49.420structure they can they conflate structure and direction they want to say that these structures
00:33:54.480themselves are uh they're done with they are temporal their um creation itself as as we know
00:34:02.980it belongs to a lesser or a lower realm than the realm of grace and redemption and so instead of
00:34:10.940seeing a unity to the plan of redemption reconciliation for all of life in all of
00:34:15.640creation that christ is reconciling to himself yes creation is broken up one way or another
00:34:21.280into parts and history is broken up into a multiplicity of parts oftentimes as well
00:34:26.280so that some would say there's sort of there's the redemptive kingdom and there's the common
00:34:30.880kingdom right um and so various divisions are bought but you're you're right instead of
00:34:36.800recognizing there is structure creational structure and there is direction light and darkness
00:34:41.440for christ against christ faithful unfaithful um true false true false right and and that leads
00:34:51.900to other dichotomies as well joel so it leads to your your matter spirit uh or you know the duality
00:35:00.200uh a radical law gospel duality um a radical uh church state uh confusion and duality so
00:35:10.840rather than recognizing that the totalizing principle in scripture is the kingdom of god
00:35:15.960rooted in the lord jesus christ uh there there are attempts to find a part of creation that that is
00:35:24.260the it's a kind of reductionistic process really you find a bit of creation that's most important
00:35:30.080and then you invest your energies there rather than recognizing that all of creation is subject
00:35:35.080to Christ, is being reconciled to God. That's really good. So that, that kind of leads into
00:35:41.580a second question, if we could not really even shifting gears, but just further fleshing this
00:35:46.320out. So I'll just be frank, the gospel coalition. So I'm not a big fan, but the, you know, the
00:35:53.260gospel coalition, some of our listeners will be hearing what you're saying. And I think they're
00:35:56.620going to have certain alarms going off. And because, and I know that because if I was having
00:36:00.960this conversation with you, even just a couple of years ago, I would be a little bit wary because I,
00:36:06.580you know, so I was in Acts 29 for about four and a half years as a pastor with Acts 29. I left with
00:36:11.920some of the, you know, woke church being written by Eric Mason and the direction that things were
00:36:16.600going. It just felt like, man, these guys, it just seems like they're just water carriers for
00:36:20.420the political left. And, uh, and I don't really want to, to be about that. Um, but, but what I
00:36:26.220initially did, this was maybe three, four years ago is I put the blame on Kuyperianism. Um, so I,0.99
00:36:33.140I was like that the problem here is just too much involvement in the culture. The problem here is,
00:36:39.260um, and, and so my point is that there are listeners who, who, who might be falling right
00:36:43.340now and what they've done to try to avoid involvement with, with some of these, these
00:36:51.300very well, I, you know, just Marxist mark, you know, bearing the name of Christ, you know, and
00:36:59.920some of them may be true brothers in Christ and they're just, just off and left field and Christ0.54
00:37:04.560will grant repentance. And then others may we find on, on the final day, we're actually false
00:37:09.480brothers and that's for the Lord to decide. But, but I think there's so much concern right now in
00:37:14.720the church. And I think of John MacArthur, thank God for, for him and his ministry and his
00:37:18.660faithfulness over the years. But I think a lot of guys are going that direction and just saying,
00:37:23.400you know what, the easiest way to divide and make things clear, clear categories is just
00:37:27.660Christ, not Caesar's head of the church. Whereas I know you and I would both say amen. And,
00:37:32.540and also Christ, not Caesar's head of the state and Christ, not, not the father is head of the
00:37:37.860family. Christ is the head of all things. Ephesians, I believe, 122, Christ has been appointed by God
00:37:43.840as head of all things to the benefit of the church. And that's not to say Christ is the head
00:37:48.320of all institutions in the same way that he's head of the church. He's uniquely the head of
00:37:52.860the church in the sense that he only has given his life up for his bride for the church, but he is
00:37:59.020head insofar as that is a governmental rule and reign over all things to uniquely benefit his
00:38:06.000church and and so anyway my point is that um you know i there's a bad taste in my mouth with the
00:38:11.100gospel coalition there's a bad taste in my mouth with acts 29 and some of these these christian
00:38:15.960groups that have been involved in political matters involved in cultural matters but always
00:38:21.760always with a with a left bent a a a democratic um a bent towards neo-marxism and and critical
00:38:31.240race theory and intersectionality and socialism, you know, and, and all these things. And so I think
00:38:36.640a lot of people, the remedy, the solution has been embracing a two kingdom kind of doctrine.
00:38:43.080And, and so, so one of the things that you've mentioned that was really helpful for me is
00:38:47.960saying that there are basically two ditches on either side of the road that the Christian can
00:38:51.620fall into. One is the social justice ditch, which is seemingly Kuyperian, but, but it puts all its
00:39:00.620hope and faith in the state, one sphere to solve the problems, and it's just substituted social
00:39:06.640justice for biblical justice. So it's not even trying to apply in terms of the sufficiency of
00:39:11.200scripture. They're all about sufficiency, but it's sufficiency of something else. It's not the
00:39:15.280sufficiency of scripture. I don't know what Bible they're reading, but it doesn't have the biblical
00:39:19.880principles that the Bible actually contains. But then on the other side, if we're not careful
00:39:25.480in trying to avoid that gospel coalition, Acts 29, these kinds of things, there's the other
00:39:35.840ditch on the other side of the road, which is just this pietism of, you know, that Jesus is only Lord
00:39:41.760of my heart. It's a privatized lordship of Christ. And so I guess what I'm asking is, because I have
00:39:48.780even close friends who would put Kuyper in a very negative category. And, but, but I, I'm looking
00:39:55.700and I'm saying they got Kuyper wrong. These guys are not a good representation of Kuyper. So could
00:40:00.120you help us in, we want to avoid, we've talked about the two kingdom thing, but we don't want
00:40:04.480to, we don't want to, you know, the Ezra Institute to just be the gospel coalition 2.0.
00:40:09.000Um, so, so what, what is this, what is this, you know, uh, safe path in between, uh, the,
00:40:17.720the privatized lordship to kingdom kind of idea, uh, versus this Neo Kuyperianism, uh, putting
00:40:23.900all of our hope in the state with, with social justice and intersectionality and very leftist
00:40:29.100Marxist socialistic principles. What, what can you speak to that for a moment?
00:40:34.460Yeah. So, yes. First of all, and I think you have rightly identified it, that's to get Kuyper wrong, to assume that he would be somehow, or Kuyper, as he understood his project in identifying a biblical principle of sphere sovereignty, was actually identifying the very opposite of the two kingdoms mentality.
00:41:02.560the the principle of sphere sovereignty is that christ is lord and king over all things over
00:41:10.060everything and that he has established various spheres of authority within creation uh and in
00:41:17.900within human institutions various spheres and jurisdictions which uh need to function in terms
00:41:23.640of god's word for them and uh of course the primary reference there is to scripture itself
00:41:31.560so we can all see that we wouldn't govern our family as we would govern the state uh it's not
00:41:38.200the the the guiding um principle in the life of the family is is the love relationship and of
00:41:44.580course that does involve discipline and so forth but it's not the kind of uh you know if if fathers
00:41:49.820were executing their their uh their rebellious children um in the home uh and that became known
00:41:57.180to the church, that would be a problem. In the same way, the government of the family isn't
00:42:02.420identical to the government of the church. There are similarities, but I can't excommunicate my
00:42:08.780wife from the Lord's table. These are distinct spheres of authority. And we intuitively know
00:42:16.380as Christians who are subject to the word of God, when one is overreaching the other.
00:42:20.180so Kuyper's concern was to say Christ is king overall God's word must govern everything and
00:42:27.240God has established his law word for these different areas of life and they delimit one
00:42:33.000another and that prevents there being any kind of totalitarian absolutizing of any sphere of life
00:42:40.560if you absolutize the family what do you get you get a mafia where blood is everything right where
00:42:46.640It's more important than the state, and it's not the rule of law,
00:43:15.520If you absolutize the state, what do you get? Well, you get statism, you get collectivism, totalitarianism. Totalitarianism fundamentally is one institution trying to treat the others in parts to whole fashion.
00:43:30.340So the church, the medieval church is trying to say, look, the church is the all encompassing institution and we're going to anoint various princes and kings and we're in charge.0.89
00:43:40.040And the state, which has been the primary offender historically, especially within, you look throughout pagan history, you look at the Bible, Egypt, Babylon, Persia, the Roman world, the emperor cult, you see that the state is the one that has wanted to, before the actual birth of the first truly free institution in the Western world, the church, the pagan state was everything.0.56
00:44:03.740That was the view of Socrates, of Plato, of Aristotle. The state is the ultimate organizing, overarching institution.0.86
00:44:13.800And that's, wouldn't you say that's where, if anything, that's the category that we're in currently?
00:44:17.980That's where we are now. In our abandonment of the Christian faith and the principle of sphere sovereignty, we've reached this point where mediating institutions leave us, are weakened or disappear.
00:44:28.340and they leave us naked before an all-powerful state which treats all of these things as lesser
00:44:33.820parts of itself whereas the real parts of the state are actually provinces and municipalities
00:44:39.720and families and churches are on the state a given territory but they're not parts of the state
00:44:46.420right so that's what sphere sovereignty is about it's trying to recognize the authority of christ
00:44:52.480and the rule of Christ's word in each of those areas.
00:44:58.480Now, the ditch on both sides of the road
00:45:00.920is exactly what the sphere of sovereignty is trying to avoid.
00:45:04.900And you've talked about the heart a couple of times
00:45:06.960in the way in which contemporary evangelicalism
00:45:10.240has tended to think about it in terms of pietism.
00:45:13.840It's my emotional life, my personal spiritual life.
00:45:16.300But biblically, the heart is a really important concept.
00:45:19.840it's the root of the human person uh in a certain sense heart and spirit are used
00:45:27.320interchangeably the heart is the the the eye it's the center it's the ego out of the heart
00:45:34.900spring the issues of life scripture says jesus talks about the heart being the root
00:45:38.880of of course of sin and rebellion it's also where the renewal goes on with the work of the holy
00:45:45.900spirit so the heart is the root unity it's the it's the central total aspect of the life of the
00:45:53.480person uh think about it like the palm of a hand this this is the heart this is kind of pre-functional
00:45:59.180and these are the various functions of our hearts you know our reasoning our emotions and various
00:46:04.660other aspects of the human person but the root unity is the heart and when our hearts are
00:46:12.760transformed and regenerate, that is going to affect not just my church life, not just my
00:46:18.880personal spirituality, but every single aspect of my life because a total renovation has gone on
00:46:27.000in the root of the human person. So when we think about the kingdom of God again,
00:46:32.640it's transformed the transformation of people at the root of their being. And not the state,
00:46:37.700not the church, not the family is the totalizing reality. It's the kingdom of God.
00:46:42.760And so transformed people apply, at the root of their being, apply the radicality of the word of God in the totality of Christ's kingdom, which encompasses every single aspect of life.
00:46:57.980And so that eliminates the problem of flight into one or this area or that area.
00:47:04.480Now, in pietism, what's going on, the one ditch is that the faith aspect of our lives, our personal confession, our personal devotions, which are important in our church life, are being absolutized.0.66
01:11:09.400Do you have any final thoughts for us, Dr. Boot, on this subject?
01:11:12.920Yes, just on the issue of the way in which, you know, our truncation of the gospel and of the kingdom and of the word of God in all of this affects attitudes towards these kinds of laws that, you know, you were preaching on with us on Sunday.
01:11:29.820uh when you look at scripture and and you know and i think i i would i would leave this sort of
01:11:36.060encouragement to your listeners is that to make sure that when we look at scripture we're not
01:11:39.880just looking at bible verses memorizing bible verses and trying to do doctrine it's a fundamentally
01:11:46.340the the scripture i mean theology in a sense is an outgrowth of biblical world and life view
01:11:52.140right there's no neutral theology either you can have some pretty bad theologians
01:11:56.300you can have liberal theology you know theology is not a safe zone oh I'm going to do I'm going
01:12:02.540to become a pastor I'm going to do theology because that's a safe place I'm going to leave
01:12:06.420engineering or medicine or whatever because I'm going to do theology well theology is just one
01:12:11.140science among many and it can be done obediently and faithfully in terms of a scriptural world and
01:12:16.100life view or rebelliously and I would I would encourage us to look at these questions that
01:12:22.920we're facing culture now in terms of that broader biblical world and life view of creation, fall,
01:12:28.140rebellion, and the consummation of all things in Jesus Christ. That's the lens to which we need to
01:12:33.220look at these issues. And when you do that in the area of human sexuality, you see how it's central
01:12:37.920to the life of the gospel. You see how it's central to the gospel of the kingdom because
01:12:41.960uh the bible begins with a wedding um god uh brings eve to adam and ever since the the we
01:12:53.020and actually it's reflected right to this day in our marriage traditions the father of the bride
01:12:57.920brings the bride to the man this reflects actually what happens in redemption where
01:13:05.560the son and the scripture says about marriage that the the that a man will leave his father
01:13:11.560and mother and be joined to his wife while the son leaves the father that's right so that he can
01:13:17.280he can be given a bride by the father that's right and uh israel's relationship to to god
01:13:26.260is described as a marriage it's an adulterous one on behalf of israel christ comes to us as
01:13:31.840the bridegroom through the holy family all the the way in which god reveals himself covenantally
01:13:38.680is in familial terms father and son marriage his first miracle the lord's first miracle is at a
01:13:45.400wedding the relationship of christ with his church is described as a marriage and history
01:13:50.160ends in the marriage celebration the marriage supper of the lamb destroy gender destroy male
01:13:58.200female distinction uh which of course is at the root of our idea of transcendence of holiness
01:14:05.020distinctness distinction the distinctions that god places within creation he separates light
01:14:11.420and darkness sea and land the creatures from one another they produce after their kind
01:14:15.720distinction is basic to god's creation right and it reflects it so marriage becomes one of
01:14:22.280the cosmological keys to reality to to the cosmos and when we lose it when we lose a grip on it we
01:14:29.560actually begin to lose our ability and we lose our understanding of male female distinction and
01:14:34.780marriage we lose our ability to understand the gospel and its meaning so it's all presupposed
01:14:40.880in uh in in the gospel itself and so i think as we face all these cultural challenges
01:14:48.300and confront them, we have to recognize that the gospel of the kingdom, which is what Jesus calls
01:14:54.160it, which is what the Bible calls the gospel, it's not some isolated thing about my soul going to
01:14:58.920heaven. It's the gospel of the kingdom of God, of the rule and reign of Christ that begins in the
01:15:05.100root of my own being. And if we understand that, the meaning of the kingdom, then we'll see that
01:15:11.660this gospel must permeate all these areas of life and if we don't do that Joel if we don't see that
01:15:18.600permeation into these most fundamental areas that speak of you know Karl Marx understood this well
01:15:24.500if you want to destroy the holy family you must destroy the earthly family in theory and in
01:15:29.460practice that's right you want to get rid of God get rid of the earthly family get rid of marriage0.97
01:15:33.940destroy it this is an attempt to attack God by attacking his image bearer and it's an assault
01:15:40.400directly on the gospel and yet so many of our evangelical movements don't see it in fact they
01:15:45.400they support bans on so-called conversion therapy i think it's a good thing this is actually an
01:15:52.180anti-conversion law is what it is it's not an anti-conversion therapy law it's an anti-conversion
01:15:57.780law and so this truncation of the gospel this whole issue that you've dealt with on this program
01:16:02.300the the the meaning of the gospel of the kingdom comes right home to roost right now for canadian
01:16:09.080christians but christians across the west increasingly that when you abandon the gospel
01:16:13.980of the kingdom well you may find yourself locked up in jail for telling your own teaching your own
01:16:22.040children and counseling your own children that there is male and female and god wants you to be
01:16:26.300married uh to a man or if you're a woman and to a woman if you're a man uh in in a in a in a
01:16:35.320covenantal union that recognizes the distinction of god's being reflected in the distinction of
01:16:39.540male and female and reflect that which reflects the distinction between creator and creature
01:16:44.920that's how fundamental it is that's why paganism actually that's why homosexuality has been called0.79
01:16:50.440the sacrament of monism the the uh basically the sacrament of paganism it's why wherever you see0.67
01:16:57.820christianity decline you see a denial of distinctions and you see a worship of creation
01:17:03.700emerge and with it every form of sexual perversion and deviancy that's why it's arising now because0.79
01:17:10.800we have retreated we've abandoned the culture in large measure and we've justified it with
01:17:16.940theologies of abandonment retreat and defeat and we've said god's law belongs nowhere but between
01:17:22.860my ears and maybe a little bit in the church and until we recover the fullness of the gospel of
01:17:27.200the kingdom we're going to still struggle with this but i think there's a window of opportunity
01:17:31.260and hope here to recover it for this generation so that the future looks different. Amen. Yeah,
01:17:37.500I think providentially God has been merciful these last couple of years with everything that's gone
01:17:41.700on and just the massive overreach of the state that a lot of eyes have been opened. And I think
01:17:47.860our prayer needs to be, you know, a lot of eyes have been opened to the benefits of Christ's
01:17:51.500principles without paying homage to Christ's person. And, you know, if you embrace the
01:18:00.280principles of Christ, without the person of Christ, you'll never have the peace of Christ.
01:18:04.920And so we have Jordan Peterson launching into the stratosphere, Ben Shapiro, all these guys
01:18:09.300that I'm grateful for in God's common grace. And so I think, at least in America, it seems like
01:18:15.920we're going to have a red tsunami coming up this year in 2022. But my fear is we've got, as
01:18:25.240Christians, we've got to show them that the goodness, everything that people love comes from
01:18:30.500Christ. Every good and perfect gift, it comes from Christ. So thank you so much for your time, Dr.
01:18:35.420Boot. And we've got a great guest room here in Texas, you know, as Canada continues to lose its
01:18:41.460ever loving mind, if you ever need to, if you ever need to flee. Well, we've got some, we've got some
01:18:46.900runners already and more may follow, but it's good to know that we have such good friends to the
01:18:53.840south and uh watch this space because the ezra institute has some um interesting plans afoot to
01:19:00.580uh to support our brothers and sisters stateside in in the u.s um and um if people do want to
01:19:08.160follow up joel with the ezra institute they can find us at ezrainstitute.ca okay um and uh there
01:19:14.240you can find our resources and books at ezra press uh there's a link off the button off the
01:19:19.380website there. And if they want to follow us on Facebook and Twitter, Ezra Institute, or follow
01:19:24.080me on Twitter at Dr. Joe Boot, they can keep up with what we're doing. Great. Thank you so much.
01:19:29.700That's ezrainstitute.ca. That's right. Okay. Thank you so much. God bless you. God bless you, Joel.
01:19:35.460Thank you. Thanks so much for listening. But real quick, before you go, do us a small favor,
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