In this episode of Theology Applied, Pastor Joel Webin talks with Shane Heilman, the leader and founder of The Psalms Project, about how the psalms shape us, discipling us, and shaping us.
00:05:27.000yeah this this one's plural there's a singular one out there so we don't want to confuse ourselves
00:05:31.600with them so great and you've got a a youtube channel and what what are all the various
00:05:36.740platforms where people can find what you're doing yeah people can really find us on pretty much any
00:05:42.180platform online where you listen to music spotify apple music amazon music pretty much all of them
00:05:47.800great all right well let's go ahead and just dive right into it i want to talk a little bit about
00:05:52.320eschatology and how you've kind of adopted the post-mill take throughout your journey through
00:05:57.900the Psalms. We can get there in a moment. But first, what made you want to start putting the
00:06:03.320Psalms to music? And tell us a little bit about the project and what you're doing.
00:06:08.120Sure. Yeah. Well, the idea came to me. I was on a mission trip somewhere in South Dakota. I live
00:06:15.260in South Dakota, by the way, here in Rapid City. And I was on a mission trip on the Rosebud Indian
00:06:20.360reservation back in like 2006. And I was a worship leader at the time, kind of more like a fill-in
00:06:26.300worship leader at the church I was attending. So I would like, you know, lead worship now and then,
00:06:30.440but had about 10 years experience worship leading at that point. And suddenly I was just spending
00:06:37.200some time with the Lord, reading my Bible and reading Psalm 1, I think it was, and just suddenly
00:06:43.580had this idea that you know what someone should put entire psalms to music to modern music in a
00:06:52.200way that's you know modern and artistic and that really you know tells the entire story of the
00:06:58.660entire psalm with music because you know of course i was aware that putting the psalms to music
00:07:04.460wasn't in any way a new idea you know it's been done for centuries christians have been putting
00:07:08.620the psalms to music and of course as most people know they used to be songs they were intended to
00:07:13.520be songs. And I think I was at a point in my worship leading where I was starting to just
00:07:20.040hunger for more of the word of God in worship. Because of course, I saw even back then in 2006,
00:07:26.740just kind of some of the watered down nature of a lot of modern worship songs.
00:07:30.980And every time I really saw some more just impact in the congregation, just felt the weight
00:07:37.220of God's presence was when we read the word. I would just read Psalms out loud to the congregation.
00:07:44.480People are like, wow, that was so deep. That was so good. I'm like, yeah, I'm just reading the
00:07:49.400word of God. And to the point where I was like, you know what, what if we sang it? What if we
00:07:53.720sang Psalms in worship? And I was thinking, well, of course, people have done lots of hymnals.
00:07:58.380There's lots of hymnals that sing the Psalms, which I think are wonderful. I think as many
00:08:04.100psalms hymns as we can, or as many psalm versions as hymns as we can have, we should have. I think
00:08:09.280that's a really valuable resource, but I want to do something different. I really wanted to,
00:08:13.940you know, kind of not contain the psalms just to a melody that repeats and repeats and repeats,
00:08:21.020no matter what's happening in the psalm, but have the psalm, the song move into different
00:08:25.940movements depending on what's happening in the psalm. You know, when David starts talking about,
00:08:29.640you know this aspect well let's change the music here let's change the melody let's change the
00:08:34.300mood let's use all the instruments that we have at our disposal and so that was kind of the idea
00:08:39.560i got was what if we put entire psalms to modern music like and i i would call the style we do like
00:08:45.380modern alt rock pop slash folk you know kind of like um that kind of style um what if we did that
00:08:52.220so that one so it kind of sounds a lot like i hesitate to say this but it might sound something
00:08:58.540like, you know, um, you know, a Hill song or a Chris Tomlin might do, but then you hear the
00:09:03.580lyrics and it's like, wow, this is different. You know what I mean? This is, this hits a little
00:09:07.040harder. This is a little saucier than what I was expecting to hear. So we want to do that modern
00:09:11.300arrangement to have that modern appeal with the music, but again, just entire Psalms. So I didn't
00:09:16.760want to censor the Psalms. I didn't want to edit the Psalms. I didn't want to water down the Psalms.
00:09:21.300Let's just sing it and let the word of God speak. And let's put the aid of music behind it
00:09:26.180almost as a teaching aid because music can be a powerful teaching tool to help us remember to
00:09:31.040help us experience the text so this idea was forming my mind i thought this could be really
00:09:36.260cool but then i realized really quick that this is going to be really really hard you know because
00:09:40.780there's a reason why no one's probably done it this way because you know you run into hebrew
00:09:45.220idioms and you run into cultural things and like how do i how do i depict this in a way you know
00:09:50.680what translation do you use do you go word for word so i was kind of wrestling through these
00:09:54.960things. But that was generally the idea is artistic arrangements, full arrangements,
00:10:00.880you know, orchestral rock arrangements, beautiful piano arrangements, putting the Psalms to music
00:10:06.160in a way that actually reflected what's going on in the text. So that was the original idea.
00:10:11.600And so I just started writing them. And here I am 15 years later, this is what I do for a living
00:10:18.640now. And by God's grace, we have tens of thousands of listeners. I'm not sure how many listeners
00:10:23.840exactly, but probably in the hundreds of thousands of listeners worldwide.
00:10:28.340Wow. So what are the main use of the Psalms? People who are listening, are they listening
00:10:32.800just in their private pleasure, their private worship or quiet time, or are they being used
00:10:40.740by churches and corporate worship? How are the Psalms being used?
00:10:45.180Yeah, I'd say my vision in the beginning was mostly for people for just listening enjoyment,
00:10:49.960You know, to listen casually while they were, you know, going about their day, you know, doing the dishes, you know, running, working out, just a way to just fill their lives with the word of God, you know, to listen to it, you know, while you're on the way and while you're doing this and while you're doing that.
00:11:05.520Um, I also, uh, it also does, uh, some of the Psalms do get used in churches.
00:11:11.600I do get, um, I do get checks from CCLI.
00:11:14.420So someone out there is using them in worship.
00:11:16.600Um, and again, when you're doing entire Psalms, I mean, some of them do get quite long, um,
00:11:21.460and structurally they can become really interesting because if you're not trying to hold to a
00:11:26.320strict, you know, verse chorus structure, or if you're not trying to hold to a strict,
00:11:30.420you know, hymnal type structure where every verse is the same melody, regardless of what's
00:11:35.920happening in the text, uh, then they aren't quite as congregationally friendly, but there
00:11:40.820are quite a few that we've written and recorded that are congregationally friendly. Uh, so they
00:11:46.520do get sung in quite a few churches around the country. Um, and I do get, I get emails all the
00:11:51.460time. People saying, Hey, can we, can we play your lyric videos in our service? Cause we don't have
00:11:55.900a band or can we play the songs in worship? And people ask, you know, for the chord sheets and
00:12:01.540all those things all the time. So I know they're being played out there, but you know, we're not
00:12:05.420as, we're not as big as, as Hillsong and Bethel yet. So. Right. We'll see. So talk a little bit
00:12:14.040about the way that putting the Psalms to music has shaped you theologically. We can talk about
00:12:18.520eschatology, but it doesn't only have to be eschatology. I think about just even precatory
00:12:23.480Psalms. Have you gotten to any of those particular Psalms in terms of breaking the teeth of the
00:12:31.920wicked, pulling out their fangs like young lions? Have you gotten to some of those?
00:12:37.940Oh, yeah. I mean, you realize when you go through the Psalms, when you realize when you write a
00:12:42.480song, when you put an entire Psalm to music and don't edit or censor it, I mean, it's in almost
00:12:49.520all of them. There's a lot of Psalms where it has that imprecatory language. So it's something I had
00:12:54.820to get comfortable with and kind of reconcile pretty quickly along with the Psalms. So I think,
00:13:02.580yeah, I'll start with the imprecatory Psalms because you kind of touched on several things
00:13:06.340there. And I could probably talk for an hour about how the Psalms have shaped my theology. But
00:13:10.680starting with the imprecatory part, of course, you run to these passages over and over again.
00:13:15.580And the first thing you have to think of is, well, is this, you know, is this really God's word or is this, you know, is this something that, okay, Jesus did away with this and we really don't think this way anymore.
00:13:27.360And the more I studied, because I do study the Psalms intently, I am a, I don't know what you call it, a psalmophile, I don't know.
00:13:35.120But I do study them in several commentaries before I put them to music because we want to make sure that I'm understanding, you know, the entire context.
00:13:42.240You know, what David's talking about here, kind of where he's going throughout the psalm, also the background of the psalm, because I think it's 14 of the psalms actually tell us exactly what was happening in David's life when he wrote that psalm, which is very instructional for seeing how David responded to particular situations.
00:14:01.760So as I was studying the Psalms, one thing I just ran into over and over again was that the imprecatory Psalms are, you know, they're obviously quoted in the New Testament.
00:14:13.660Like you think of like the most, you know, the most, some of the most would be considered the most vicious of the imprecatory Psalms, like Psalm 109 or Psalm 69 or some of these that really are difficult.
00:14:26.100I mean, quoted in the New Testament, first of all.
00:14:28.740So second of all, one thing I also noticed is that in some of these imprecatory Psalms, like in Psalm 35 or in Psalm 109, David actually loves and prays for his enemies in the same Psalm.
00:14:43.840Because in Psalm 35, he says, you know, I wept and fasted for him like I would grieve for my own mother.
00:14:51.060You know, he's talking about his enemies, how he would love his enemies.
00:14:55.100So I was starting to see that these really don't collide with Jesus' command to love our enemies.
00:15:00.680We actually see that example in David in the Psalms at the same time he's asking for justice to come upon his enemies.
00:15:08.040So the way I've thought it through is kind of like this, and maybe you can also answer and see if I'm on track with this.
00:15:14.020But in David's time especially, there has to be a mechanism for justice, right?
00:15:20.000There has to be a check in an evil society on evil or else the whole thing just turns black.
00:15:26.220And, you know, in David's time, you know, he can't just he can't just call the cops.
00:15:29.540You know, he can't just, you know, call upon, you know, some authorities to arrest these evil people.
00:15:35.920I mean, David kind of is, you know, that authority, first of all.
00:15:39.900And he really has no other recourse than to ask God to intervene in these situations.
00:15:44.540So it's really, I see David calling for justice because we have that same sensibility, right? When we see evil happening, there's a deep desire in us as humans to see justice done, whether that's going to prison, whether that's the death penalty.
00:16:00.680people want to see justice happen when they've been deeply wronged. I say it this way, everybody's
00:16:07.800against the imprecatory Psalms until somebody shoots up a school. Then we're fine with justice
00:16:14.140coming upon the shooter, right? So everyone agrees with them. I think we're just so insulated in our
00:16:19.320Western society that we've never been in a situation like David's where the only recourse
00:16:24.620keeping us alive is God's mortal judgment on an enemy. So think about it in those terms,
00:16:30.280helped me realize this is not at all incompatible with the New Testament. In fact, the New Testament
00:16:35.000quotes them. We see passages in the New Testament, like in Revelation, where the saints are calling
00:16:40.380out for judgment upon their enemies and upon the people who have persecuted them. There's a straight
00:16:46.380line through the Old and New Testament of this, we can love our enemies while still desiring justice
00:16:52.940to be done on them at the same time. And I just realized there's no contradiction there. So,
00:16:58.280But yeah, I'd love to hear your thoughts on how far off track I am there.
00:17:02.240No, no, no. That's great, Shane. That's really helpful.
00:17:04.240I think understanding, well, just understanding the difference between vengeance and justice and, you know, man's vengeance versus God's justice or God's vengeance, you know, that vengeance is mine, says the Lord.
00:17:17.060And so, yeah, when, you know, it's the same as, well, no, I was going to give an illustration of discipline in the home with children, but it's different than that.
00:17:25.520Because a lot of what we're doing in the home is, you know, disciplining a child is not punitive, but it's to shape and form and instruct them, develop them.
00:17:37.560But yeah, with a criminal, wanting a criminal to come to justice is not at odds with loving them.
00:17:45.740And a lot of it has to do with our definition of love, you know, and I can't remember which theologian it was,
00:17:51.900but somebody defined love, and I'll get close, this won't be verbatim, but they said that it was seeking the highest good of the person that you're loving in tangible, practical ways.
00:18:07.080And so, you know, love that's like 1 John talks about, or James talks about, or Matthew, you know, the Sermon on the Mount, love that's tangible, it's physical,
00:18:15.740It doesn't just say, you know, go and be well fed and warm and clothed, but it actually does those things.
00:18:22.360Jesus says, you know, whatever you've done for the least of these, my brothers, you've done for me, visiting in prison, clothing the naked.
00:18:30.100And, you know, the key phrase there is whatever you've done for the least of these, my brothers.
00:18:34.500It's not just whoever society or culture deems as being marginalized at any given time.
00:18:40.740But my brother's, you know, visiting someone in prison, what Jesus is getting at is visiting a Christian, a brother in Christ, who's been wrongfully imprisoned, namely because they've preached Christ and have come underneath persecution for that.
00:18:57.260So visiting the brother in Christ who's wrongfully imprisoned and clothing the brother in Christ who's naked, not because he won't work, because Jesus doesn't contradict other portions of scripture.
00:19:08.160you know so where paul says if a man's not willing to work let him not eat um so you know we're
00:19:14.800talking about um we're talking about people who are persecuted someone who's naked somebody who's
00:19:19.920thirsty someone who's hungry someone who's imprisoned um and all of this uh would be
00:19:25.080through the language of oppression um that it would be they're unjustly naked and hungry and
00:19:32.040those kinds of things not just because they're lazy so jesus isn't advocating for social welfare
00:19:38.020he's not you know he's not a socialist he's not a communist but he's saying that we should love
00:19:43.960our brothers in Christ fellow brothers in Christ who are being mistreated so all that being said
00:19:49.440love is tangible love is physical love is practical it's not just well-wishing it's not
00:19:54.660just theoretical spiritual saying kind things but it's a willingness to actually lay down our lives
00:20:00.860and to take physical action for the welfare of that individual but then you know going back to
00:20:05.540that definition of the theologian who's defining biblical love, he said, you know, it's tangible,
00:20:11.520practical, physical, literal love, but it's all with the aim of seeking the highest good
00:20:18.460of the individual. And so, you know, in that sense of highest good, we're talking about eternal good.
00:20:25.060And in terms of eternal good, God's justice is good. It's good for those who have been wronged.
00:20:32.900most of God's justice that we see in the Old Testament is forms of restitution. So if somebody
00:20:39.680committed theft, it was ultimately justice was making the wronged person whole. So double
00:20:47.480restitution, or it depends in degrees of theft and what particularly took place, but it's
00:20:52.700making the person whole. Somebody lost something wrongfully, it's now being restored. In cases of
00:20:59.180capital punishment, restitution is impossible in this life. Christ will make us whole in the life
00:21:06.400to come. He'll wipe away every tear. But in this life, when a loved one is murdered, when a life
00:21:13.120is taken, the reason why capital punishment is the biblical position that we see in the Noahic
00:21:19.240covenant, Noah, you know, with Genesis chapter nine, and we see that multiple places throughout
00:21:25.700scripture. But the reason why that's right is not because the criminal being executed actually
00:21:30.840makes the bereaved family whole. There's no way to make them whole. You can't bring that person
00:21:37.180back from death. But I think it was Gary North who said that in capital punishment, what you're
00:21:43.660looking at is there are certain crimes where it's impossible in this life to make them whole.
00:21:48.560Therefore, we need to, with a sense of urgency, transition the criminal to a higher court.
00:21:55.700bow. Absolutely. We kill them and we send them to God, um, for his judgment. And so all that being
00:22:01.720said, but my point is just to say that it's all for the highest good of, you know, so it's making,
00:22:06.000uh, the oppressed family that has suffered injustice whole. Um, but it's also for the
00:22:11.900good of the criminal. There, there have been many who have come to Christ by God's grace on death
00:22:16.800row. There have been many, um, with, you know, uh, going to the gallows, you know, like many
00:22:22.380throughout church history that um that justice god's justice is the the law is a tutor and so
00:22:29.380when penalties are waived we think that oh this is kindness this is mercy this is love it gets
00:22:34.540conflated um but but really what what we often are doing is uh when we get rid of when we're
00:22:41.760antinomian and get rid of certain penalties in our culture um we are discipling people that the
00:22:48.160government, Romans 13, they are God's agents, God's avengers. So they're bringing God's justice
00:22:56.860and they're meant to do that. They're called God's deacon, his servant, avengers. They don't
00:23:03.160bear the sword for no reason. And so they're bringing God's wrath upon the evildoer. And when
00:23:08.900they don't, what it says to a society, the presence of good laws and just equal penalties,
00:23:15.500weights and measures, proportional justice, swift justice, impartial, blind justice.
00:23:23.040When that's done well, it disciples a culture, society, and it says, this is God's law,
00:23:30.180and this is who God is. And it helps somebody have, it doesn't save someone, but what it does
00:23:37.140is it helps someone feel a proper sense of guilt, which can then, with the work of the Holy Spirit,
00:23:43.080drive them to a savior, drive them to Christ. But when laws are, when a culture is lawless,
00:23:50.160when justice is perverted and ripped back, not only those victims who injustice is perpetrated
00:23:58.960against, not only do they suffer, but even the criminal themselves is actually being perversely
00:24:05.420discipled by the God's, what are supposed to be God's deacons, the civil magistrate.
00:24:11.280they're now perversely discipling a culture in a society, telling them something that's a lie about
00:24:17.700who God is. This is not a law because it's not God's law, because it's not who God is. And what
00:24:23.960it does is it actually removes a sense of moral culpability and guilt and conviction, and therefore
00:24:31.000it removes their sense of need for Christ. Spurgeon said a person cannot appreciate the beauty of
00:24:38.080Christ unless they first come to see the necessity for Christ. When you remove law from society,
00:24:44.220you're removing justice. And when you remove justice and law and penalties for crimes,
00:24:49.280you are removing the necessity for Christ. And therefore you are obliterating any opportunity
00:24:55.200to see the beauty of Christ. And so back to that definition of highest good, you're actually not,
00:25:01.520not only is is that not at odds with love but to do anything otherwise uh otherwise other than
00:25:08.140justice um is the antithesis of love if we're defining love in an eternal highest good sense
00:25:15.000because we're ultimately um we're damning people so it's loving to the criminal it's loving to the
00:25:20.980family that was wronged it's loving you know all across the board so we can love our enemies pray
00:25:25.920for their salvation pray for conviction of the holy spirit pray that god would save them by the
00:25:30.780power of the gospel, and pray that they, if they're at large, that they would be captured.
00:25:35.440If it's a capital crime, that they would be executed. And none of those things are at odds.
00:25:42.480Yeah, actually, what you're saying about the law, you know, being a teacher and God's judgment,
00:25:47.160being a teacher to the rest of society, it's interesting. David says something very similar
00:25:51.240to that in Psalm 59. That was the last Psalm I just wrote was Psalm 59. And there's a really
00:25:56.860unique prayer in Psalm 59, where David actually says, okay, God, do not kill my enemies. Because
00:26:04.500then people, he essentially says, then my people will forget the judgment. So he's basically
00:26:10.660actually asking God to make the judgment more drawn out for an instructional purpose on the
00:26:16.620people. So people will look at this and see, this is not the way to go. You know, this is not the
00:26:21.700way to a prosperous society. So he actually asked for a certain kind of judgment that will be
00:26:26.920instructive on the people. And that's another thing I love about Psalms.
00:26:31.520But damning, what you're describing would be, and correct me if I'm wrong, because I don't have
00:26:36.040Psalm 59 right in front of me, but what I'm assuming is that it would be that God is allowing
00:26:42.640wicked people to do wicked, unjust things, because not a judgment to the wicked, but he's using the
00:26:49.040wicked as his rod and a judgment towards the righteous that are currently in sin against him,
00:26:54.460right? And so David's saying, as much as I want the wicked to come to justice, I recognize that
00:26:59.300this is your discipline on your people corporately, collectively, in general. You're utilizing this
00:27:07.380rod of the wicked, just like God would use the Assyrians to punish Israel, you know, or Egypt.0.97
00:27:12.920And on one hand, it's like God bring the Assyrians to justice. And eventually he did when the0.90
00:27:17.360fullness of their, their iniquity, you know, when, when their iniquity was full, uh, God brought his
00:27:22.500wrath, um, upon those, those nations. Um, but in the meantime, it's like on the one hand, yes,
00:27:28.320I want justice to come to the wicked, but I also see that in your providence, in your sovereign
00:27:34.320will, um, not just your moral will, but in the sovereign will of God, uh, you are using, uh,
00:27:40.380the wicked as your instrument, as your tool, uh, to judge the righteous who are currently in
00:27:46.220apostasy currently uh being faithless and so so in that i feel that i'll just say this real quick
00:27:52.960and then right back to you but i feel that as an american citizen i feel like on the one hand
00:27:57.620um when i think of nancy pelosi and joe biden um chuck schumer break their teeth oh god i pray that
00:28:06.120god would break their teeth or as other psalms say that he would take the heads of their babies
00:28:09.820and bash them upon the rocks and that's scripture and i feel that and i pray that and in the same0.60
00:28:16.040breath, I also pray God do whatever it takes to bring our nation to repentance because I'm not
00:28:24.400interested in a mere conservative political resurgence where we get back to the good old
00:28:29.960days of the 1980s with more conservative economic policies and blah, blah. No, thank you. That's
00:28:37.420what got us here. It'll just be a moment. That's just a slower walk to hell. I'm not interested
00:28:42.840in the nation just walking a little bit slower to the pits of hell. I don't want a mere
00:28:48.920conservative resurgence. I want a distinctly Christian reformation and revival. And one of
00:28:56.060the ways that God may see fit to bring that about, God is at his disposal to use multiple different
00:29:01.580providences and tools. But one of the ways that God may bring about revival in our nation, if he
00:29:07.840chooses to bring it about at all, um, is through immense suffering and persecution and evil
00:29:14.900actually getting worse before it gets better. And us coming to our senses, like the prodigal son,
00:29:20.380I always think one of the, the, the worst things that could have happened to him when it says he
00:29:24.300was in a far off distant land, a famine came to the land. He was starving. He was hungry. He got a,
00:29:29.480a, you know, deadbeat job feeding pigs. Uh, and he was looking at the pods that were used to feed
00:29:35.840the pigs and and the pods look pig food started looking good to him and the text goes on it says
00:29:41.480and no one gave him anything and then the very next words in the text are and he came to his
00:29:48.080senses one of the things that inhibits estranged apostatized sons of god who are are the righteous
00:29:57.620in one category but currently apostatizing in another currently underneath god's fatherly
00:30:03.820displeasure, um, that need, need to repent. One of the things that inhibits, um, repentance is,
00:30:11.560uh, is handouts. Um, one of the things that inhibits repentance is sparing the rod. And
00:30:17.360God says that even to human fathers, that he who spares the rod hates, hates his son. It's not
00:30:23.240loving to spare the rod. It's actually hatred to spare the rod. So God in one breath, so we can
00:30:28.440pray that I think, and none of this is contradicting. We can, we can pray that in God's moral will,
00:30:32.900that he would bring justice and that it would be as swift as he sees as he sees fit justice to the
00:30:41.060wicked and and then and break their teeth and and yet we can also pray in the same breath but God in
00:30:48.260your sovereign will you do all things well you're infinitely wise we pray that you would bring
00:30:54.540justice to the wicked in your moral will and yet not not in a way that would contradict your
00:31:01.020sovereign will as you undoubtedly are using the wicked as an instrument in your providence
00:31:07.660for bringing the righteous to their knees so that we so that we're not content with mere
00:31:14.680conservative resurgences but we are forced to cry out for a Christian revival and to actually not
00:31:23.560just turn back to republicanism but actually turn back to a person not just principles but a person
00:31:30.760whose name is Jesus, and that we would call upon him by name. And persecution is one of the ways
00:31:36.500that God produces that kind of repentance that leads towards a much deeper healing, right? Not
00:31:42.460just the false prophets, you've healed the wounds of my people lightly, but saying peace, peace,
00:31:47.920when there is no peace, but a deep, profound healing of our nation and a healing of the church.
00:31:54.200And judgment begins with the house of God. So we have all this scripture and all that to be able
00:31:58.980to say that both things are true. It's not one or the other. Both things are true. Bring justice to
00:32:05.460the wicked. They really are wicked. They kill babies. They mutilate children, you know,
00:32:11.360chemically castrating boys. I mean, they're wicked, wicked, wicked people. And yet in the0.99
00:32:17.440very same breath, we got here in large part because of the church's abdicating of its
00:32:23.540responsibility it's prophetic role because of cowardice because of gluttony because of
00:32:29.260complacency because of greed because of all that you know the the fear of man if nothing else and
00:32:36.560and that and we need the the loving heart albeit but loving discipline of our father
00:32:44.100to to bring us back to him and so yeah all those things can be true absolutely yeah and um yeah
00:32:51.820I actually hadn't thought about that with Psalm 59, that it very well could be that David's asking for this specific kind of judgment on his enemies to be just that, to kind of, you know, let them hang around longer for the, perhaps the discipline of his people.
00:33:04.980um in the text the way i the way i took it was that it was more so like let their let their
00:33:11.880instead of just killing them right away let their decline be be more slow and dramatic
00:33:17.380so that you know there's more of a so it's more of like an illustrative like look what happens
00:33:23.020when you you cross the line um so that may absolutely be true of that particular song
00:33:28.920everything i said in principle is true but it may not be true like i said of psalm 39 but but what
00:33:34.340you're saying in principle is also true if not in psalm 59 which i would have to look at it's
00:33:38.720certainly true of pharaoh right it says for this purpose i raised him up romans 9 commentating on
00:33:44.220you know on the exodus but you think of pharaoh and it's like the typical guy i mean it's like
00:33:51.160one two maybe three plagues and you're gonna tap right i'm gonna tap out that's like an arm bar
00:33:56.560or rear naked choke you know like uh you know like three different you know submission moves
00:34:01.640all at once. It's like your arm's broken, your face is pummeled. It's like, yeah, you tap.
00:34:06.680It was a supernatural sovereign hardening of Pharaoh's heart that caused him to not submit.
00:34:14.220And why? Paul says, like, I've raised him up so that my power might be displayed. Like God wanted
00:34:20.840to show off to his people how he didn't want to just show his people that he was powerful enough
00:34:25.440to do three plagues. He wanted to show him 10 plus the parting of the Red Sea. And, and God,
00:34:31.160this is the funny thing when, when you're an infinitely powerful being and you want to show
00:34:35.860off your infinite power to your people against your enemies, but you're infinitely powerful,
00:34:42.020then you have to use some of your own infinite power to prop up your puny enemies just so you
00:34:47.580can show them the right and the left. Cause otherwise they're just going to go down with
00:34:51.400the right and you'll never get it to show off that left hook. So, so all that means that that
00:34:55.200could absolutely be, you know, Psalm 59, but that's certainly a biblical principle that we
00:34:58.560find elsewhere. If, if nowhere else, Egypt and Pharaoh, go ahead. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And
00:35:03.640yeah, that's one thing I didn't even mention about the imprecatory Psalms. And yeah, I feel like we
00:35:07.740could talk like for four hours, just about the imprecatory Psalms, you know, and just how
00:35:11.340interesting that theology is. But one thing I love about the Psalms is that David is not taking
00:35:18.760justice into his own, you know, human, frail, imperfect hands. He is calling on God's perfect,
00:35:24.860holy justice. And he's really relying on that. We see that the way he dealt with Saul, right?
00:35:30.580He could have taken that into his own hands several times, but he leaves it to God. He leaves
00:35:34.200it to God, which, you know, again, I would argue is a far more righteous ethic than what we see
00:35:40.940typically from man, which is typically, you know, vindictiveness. And we see, you know, like I said,
00:35:46.420petty revenge. So the Psalms don't show us a petty revenge. The Psalms show us a really profound
00:35:53.180trust in the sovereignty of God in the face of evil that most of us probably haven't even
00:35:59.560encountered face-to-face. Absolutely. Well, let's go ahead and continue now and let's talk a little
00:36:06.260bit about what I mentioned earlier, your eschological development with the Psalms. I think
00:36:12.980you told me offline as we were preparing a little bit for this interview that, um, that you've
00:36:18.400embraced post-millennial eschatology and that the Psalms were a part of, of, um, of influencing you
00:36:25.960in that direction. Can you share that with us? Yeah, absolutely. So, uh, for a long period of
00:36:31.860my Christian journey, I probably would have called myself a pan-millennialist, uh, didn't
00:36:37.420really study eschatology a whole lot until maybe about four or five years ago. It was kind of
00:36:42.240always on my, it was kind of always on deck for me. Like, yeah, I'll get to eschatology someday.
00:36:46.880You know what I mean? But, um, basically, you know, Jesus is coming back. We got to be ready.
00:36:51.000Like who cares about the details was kind of my viewpoint. And I think that really changed. I was
00:36:56.860actually, uh, mowing my lawn back in like, I don't know, 2018, 2017. Cause I was listening to a Jeff
00:37:02.440Durbin sermon. I can't remember how I started to listen to Jeff Durbin, but, and he started talking
00:37:07.260about the uh jesus coming in judgment and he started talking about how that was him coming
00:37:12.980in judgment on jerusalem in 80 70 so he was talking about matthew 24 as being passed and i
00:37:19.260was like what is he talking about like i've never heard anything like this before and i'd always
00:37:24.620been troubled by that verse in matthew 24 matthew 24 34 um uh this generation shall not pass away
00:37:31.840till all these things take place and you know c.s lewis calls it the most embarrassing verse in the
00:37:36.740bible and i had never heard a good explanation for it ever whenever i came across that verse
00:37:41.580you know i would look at a commentary and i actually actually realized i had a schofield
00:37:46.300bible i actually bought one at some point not really knowing what it eschatologically meant
00:37:50.080but you know i'd look at that it would say you know what's talking about the jewish race or
00:37:53.840whatever and just all of these explanations just they just did not work they did not work
00:37:58.540and so when i heard that it kind of sent me into this like research uh mode where i was like okay
00:38:03.980Hey, I got to investigate this view because I don't think Jeff Durbin's a heretic, but maybe he is.
00:38:09.100So let's investigate this and see where it goes.
00:38:11.500And that led to me listening to, you know, Ken Gentry and started listening to Gary DeMar.
00:38:17.540And then I read his book, Last Day's Madness.
00:38:21.300I'm not sure what to think of the current Gary DeMar situation, so I just won't comment on that.
00:38:25.720But I read Last Day's Madness, and that was the book that really helped me to see that, actually,
00:38:32.480I think this is the most eschatologically sound or the most exegetically, I should say,
00:38:37.800sound position I've ever read. Because as I've gone through my Christian life, I was raised
00:38:42.760Catholic and then became a Christian at 17 and kind of started my journey there, just learning
00:38:49.680almost from scratch, I guess I could say. And so whenever I came across an issue like baptism or
00:38:55.460eschatology, what I would discover, or Calvinism even, what I would discover is, okay, here's
00:39:01.980these two positions and what i kind of tended to see and of course you know some people get mad at
00:39:07.340me for this but it always seemed like one position was very exegetically precise or exegetically um
00:39:15.440i guess exegetically grounded you know i guess and the other one always seemed to have a lot of
00:39:19.540emotion involved like for example the calvinist arminian thing i could not win an argument against
00:39:25.020the calvinists i just couldn't um exegetically i couldn't i couldn't get around it and i watched
00:39:31.320the armenians argue and it was it was honestly it was a lot more you know emotion and philosophy
00:39:37.320than it was exegesis so that kind of rang off my alarm bells and i was like okay this is probably
00:39:42.960the one and so whenever i come across these issues i always say okay which one which debater argues
00:39:48.220exegetically and which one argues you know with a lot more you know emotion and a lot more you know
00:39:54.420of that kind of thing and even the same thing in baptism i'm going to make presbyterians mad here
00:39:58.280But I actually went to a – I watched a course on covenant theology with Ligon Duncan, started getting to covenant theology.
00:40:06.020And then he got to the point where he was going to teach on infant baptism.
00:40:10.180And at that point, I was kind of open to it.
00:40:57.260That kind of came up also a little bit with, I don't know if you saw, but on the Canon app,
00:41:02.340which is a fantastic product for anybody who doesn't have it, the Canon Plus app,
00:41:07.000lots of material, $7.99 a month. It's a good deal. It's better than Netflix. It's not just,
00:41:13.220oh, they do good work, they're Christians, and so it's worthy of support. It actually,
00:41:17.240the value, not only are you supporting something that's Christian and a ministry, but
00:41:21.480the value is better than just about any streaming device that I've come across.
00:41:26.660So anyways, that's my plug for them. They don't pay me, but it's true. So I'll, I'll give them the credit that they deserve on that app. There was a debate on pedo baptism, which, you know, it was, you can't debate pedo baptism, you know, or I'm sorry, pedo communionism. And you can't debate that without pedo baptism. So, you know, the two things both got addressed, but it was an informal charitable, you know, kind of debate between Wilson and James White.
00:41:53.980But even Wilson, who I love and who I think handles the scripture very, very well, one of his strongest arguments was, you know, it was not exegesis, but it was a story, you know, of his grandson and feeling included when he first got to take the Lord's Supper and tapping his head, you know, and tapping his, you know, his family members' heads and saying, we're all part of the same community.
00:42:16.300And James, you know, his personality, he just, Dr. White just wouldn't, you know, as sweet
00:42:43.960And so eschatology was largely the same thing. When I read Gary DeMar's book, I was thinking like, that's pretty good exegesis. Like that's, those are good arguments, you know? And when he says, you know, interpreting a passage, Jesus says here, he goes to the Old Testament and shows you four examples that mean exactly what Gary DeMar says they would mean. And you're like, okay, like this is starting to check out.
00:43:06.980And then when I would start to finally have conversations with folks about it, yeah, I mean, exegetically, I felt really solid and confident.
00:43:16.720And I found that a lot of the other arguments were, you know, just kind of emotional or just came from a lack of understanding of the post-millennial position.
00:43:26.180So, like, I'm always going to side where I feel like I would win the exegetical argument.
00:43:32.760And so, because I'm not going to take a position if I'm going to lose, you know, if I'm going to, if I'm going to argue it and lose, why would I take that position? Because you're probably right if I'm going to lose. So that's kind of what was, I just, as the more I researched it, the more it just seemed to check out. And then it's kind of like, once you see something, you can't unsee it. Once I saw God's sovereignty, once I saw Calvinism, once I saw post-millennialism, and now you're studying the Psalms.
00:43:59.620I mean, come on. I mean, God's sovereignty is all over the Psalms. You could not unsee it.
00:44:05.540And then post-millennialism is all over the Psalms. You cannot unsee it once you kind of
00:44:11.180have that biblical perspective. And so, yeah, then it's just started to reinforce everything
00:44:16.520I was learning because I'd read these Psalms and the Psalms do not at all, to my knowledge,
00:44:23.360not even ever. I mean, they do not at all have this idea that we lose down here. That is just
00:44:29.000not the Psalms at all. The typical Psalm pattern is David is in some really, you know, stressful
00:44:36.240or dangerous situation. He calls out to God. He lays out his complaint before God in detail. He
00:44:43.260says what's going on, which I think is really helpful in our prayers to, you know, articulate
00:44:47.240to God what's happening. It helps us process the situation. And after doing that, it's almost like
00:44:51.960David realizes, wait a second, this isn't much of a threat because you're God over this. You're
00:44:56.240God over that. God is my helper. Here's your covenant promises. He kind of goes to the
00:44:59.980section of confidence where he's saying, no, this is the truth. So first David kind of lays
00:45:04.960out his request. Then he lays out his complaint and the situation. And after that, he goes into
00:45:10.060theology. He says, no, you're God over this. You're God over that. I know this is true. I know that's
00:45:13.900true. You promised this, you promised that. And then by the end of the Psalm, David is practically
00:45:18.700celebrating the outcome before it happens. He's saying, okay, when you deliver me, I'm going to
00:45:24.920here's what i'm gonna do after you deliver me you know he's he's he's basically praising god
00:45:30.280for the deliverance god is going to bring like not four thousand years from now like right here
00:45:36.300and now in my life um and the psalms don't at all treat the wicked like they're going to prosper
00:45:42.500i mean david's complaint is often like god uh these guys are doing this you said that this
00:45:49.340wouldn't prosper and you said that i would prosper for following your ways so what gives like fix
00:45:54.800this. And then near the end of the Psalm, he realizes that's exactly what's going to happen.
00:45:59.520God's going to bring judgment on the wicked here and now. He's going to give David victory
00:46:03.720here and now. And David celebrates and worships according to the deliverance that is certainly
00:46:09.680coming very, very, very soon. So David definitely had this eschatology of victory in the here and
00:46:16.280now. He totally expected that because that was the covenant that God made with Israel. He said,
00:46:21.820you know if you walk in my ways like david did for most of his life then i'm going to be with
00:46:27.820you i'm going to deliver you the enemies are going to flee from you and the enemies aren't
00:46:32.040going to prosper and so david just trusted that walked in that and he saw the fruits of it so
00:46:36.580there's this eschatology of victory all over the psalms that could go through so many passages
00:46:41.780that where it talks about god not only is the god of israel but he's the god of all the nations
00:46:46.800right right no that's good i want to pick up on something you said just for a moment you said you
00:46:52.860know david recognizes that um that he's in a covenant and i think you know to just for a
00:46:58.820moment to play the devil's advocate some people would you know maybe push back and say well yeah
00:47:02.860david expected victory because he was a king and he was a type of christ the king um and you know
00:47:10.040he yeah he was in a covenant but it's not the covenant that we're in you know the davidic
00:47:14.320covenant was different than the new covenant covenant and i i think you know again that just
00:47:19.180kind of gets into people's ignorance where they need to brush up a little bit more on their covenant
00:47:23.680theology not understanding the covenant of redemption the oldest chronologically oldest
00:47:29.080covenant that was made in the councils of eternity and eternity passed between father and son by the
00:47:34.680holy spirit um where you know the father promises um to to provide for the son a pure and spotless
00:47:41.960bride and, and, uh, who's dressed and adorned, who's radiant. Uh, she's not scrawny. She's not
00:47:47.860beaten. She's not bruised. Um, and she's not also adulterous. Um, she's not weak. She's not, um,
00:47:54.160small, um, but, but she's, she's full and, uh, beautiful and verdant. And, you know, and so,0.96
00:48:01.780and the son also promises to, um, to hand back to his father a people, um, purchased, um, by his
00:48:08.960blood for the Father's eternal glory, to the praise of his glorious grace, all these things.
00:48:15.020And so anyways, with the covenant of redemption and the new covenant, both as 1689 Federalists
00:48:22.220believing that those are synonymous, the covenant of redemption made in eternity past and then
00:48:27.840actualized in the new covenant that saves retroactively saints in the Old Testament and
00:48:32.100all those going forward. Again, it is a kingly covenant. Christ is king and he's the head of0.65
00:48:40.420the church, which is his body. And Christ is not losing. He died to die no more. He died once
00:48:48.960for sin. He is not forever. He is not dying again and again and again and again. We focus so much
00:48:59.440on the crucifixion of Jesus, but we sometimes minimize the resurrection, that there is a
00:49:07.540resurrection, and not only a resurrection, but an ascension in glory to the right hand of the
00:49:12.900Father, that the mustard seed is growing into a great tree, that Daniel 2, stone cut by no human
00:49:18.940hands, is shattering the kingdoms of this world, and it is progressively, it's not just happening
00:49:23.980in a moment. That's the other thing that really sold me, was the language that we find in the
00:49:28.860old testament and in the new it's not it's not sudden and cataclysmic um instead it's it's
00:49:35.340gradual yes um and and um and intentional it's uh precise and deliberate and planned and gradual
00:49:45.300it's progressive and so you know shattering the kingdoms of this world uh this stone cut by no
00:49:51.180human hands but then slowly it grows um into a mountain that fills the whole earth you know or
00:49:57.800the mustard seed works, works through, there's a process, but progressively it, you know, um,
00:50:03.500it eventually grows into a, a great tree that's branches cover the whole face of the earth. The
00:50:08.700beasts of the earth find shade, you know, the birds, uh, of the air find rest in its branches.
00:50:13.460And, and then the leaven eventually leavens the whole batch of dough. All of these things are,
00:50:19.300um, progressive and they, and they take time. And so, um, all that being said, this idea of Jesus,
00:50:25.540sealing his victory through his earthly ministry, death, resurrection, ascension. But then him
00:50:35.560actually applying his victory, his victory sealed, but then his victory being realized
00:50:42.380progressively in the same way that David was anointed king. But then he progressively
00:50:47.720took over the king, you know, came into the kingship. Then, you know, there's a division
00:50:52.500within the nation between David and Saul. He gets, you know, his house in order and then begins to
00:50:57.900push back the territories of all his enemies and gains triumph. And there are battles that are
00:51:03.760lost, but the war ultimately is, is a win. It's a victory. And so the moments of loss, but it's,
00:51:10.980you know, it's one step forward, it's two steps or one step backward, two steps forward, and maybe
00:51:15.20010 steps backward in a moment, you know, for multiple generations can, you know, consecutive,
00:51:19.980but then it's 20 steps forward. And, and, you know, you, you look at that and, you know,
00:51:24.920everyone's, you know, the world is getting worse and worse. And it goes back to the emotive
00:51:28.300argumentation that you talked about at the newspaper exegesis, instead of biblical exegesis.
00:51:33.640And it's like, what do you mean the world's getting worse and worse? I am willing to concede
00:51:38.700that our particular corner of the world, namely Western civilization has been getting worse for1.00
00:51:45.940the last 50 years, very visibly, uh, three years, COVID and black lives matter and all that very0.98
00:51:52.640visibly 50 years, very visibly, uh, you can argue 130 to 170 years. And you could argue even all0.99
00:52:00.300the way to maybe three, 300 years, um, you know, 350 years to the enlightenment. Um, okay. So yeah,
00:52:08.020we're, we're, um, we're, we're in a bad spell right now. We've lost a few battles, but again,
00:52:14.280that's, uh, that's part of the world, not the whole world. And that's part of history. We've
00:52:18.900got 2000 years of history since that seed, Jesus talks about seed must first die before it can be
00:52:24.860and be planted in the ground before Jesus died. And he was planted in the belly of the earth,
00:52:29.600in the tomb, he was buried like a seed. Um, and, and in the last 2000 years, even if you count the
00:52:35.660last 350 years as, as, um, some pruning and branches, you know, dying and falling off and
00:52:42.220those still that's 350 out of 2000 i like would you rather be alive today or 2000 years ago is
00:52:49.040the world better today lifespans are longer uh poverty has gone down globally across across the
00:52:55.720planet in every nation there's um that you know the um the quality of life is higher medicine
00:53:01.300um is is better um less people die in infancy less women die die in childbirth um well there's
00:53:08.700wars and rumors of wars. Yeah, there's always wars and rumors of wars. But in terms of actual
00:53:13.580wars being fought, yeah, that's going on. But there were times where every nation on the planet
00:53:19.720in the known world was all fighting at the same time endlessly. The fact that we actually have
00:53:25.760long periods, decades of peace in large swaths of the globe, all these things are remarkable.
00:53:33.300And it's the result of the Christian faith.0.90
00:53:36.400And as Christendom is currently on a decline because of apostasy and rejection of Christ, we're seeing things get worse.0.85
00:53:45.780But to pretend, I think people pretend as though it's just been this downward spiral for 2,000 years.
00:53:51.240If it was a downward spiral from first century Palestine as the starting place, and then
00:53:56.820a 2,000 year downward spiral from there, then we'd be living in hell right now.
00:54:04.860The fact that things are as good as they are, that we have full bellies, and many of us
00:54:09.840have healthy children, and the things that we live in, air-conditioned homes, and health
00:54:14.960insurance, that's because from the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, we had
00:54:20.160a massive upspike of victory for 1700 years and yeah we're we're we're taking a couple steps back
00:54:29.540right now but that is not the headline of the story and i think we just we get so focused on
00:54:35.320our little corner of earth and our little lifetime you know instead of looking at the
00:54:40.500whole planet what god's been doing over the whole of human history and especially church history
00:54:45.680last 2000 years. And we, um, our footnote, um, is, is placed as, as God's headline,
00:54:52.460but it's not, it's not God's headline. So. Yeah, absolutely. I've had many similar
00:54:58.000conversations with friends over the past couple of years. Cause that is, uh, again,
00:55:01.400the emotional argument is, you know, look how, look how bad things are or, you know,
00:55:06.960drag queen story hour or, you know, um, or whatever, you know, and you said it very well.
00:55:12.540I actually, my argument sounds almost exactly like yours. You know, if you think things are bad now, read the Old Testament. I mean, read what kind of things that people had to deal with, the kind of brutality and the way that, you know, just the imminent threat that was there at all moments of time that David had to deal with.
00:55:32.880I mean, you read the Psalms, and I think that's one reason why we struggle to understand the imprecatory Psalms is we haven't had to deal with what David dealt with because things are way better now.
00:55:43.020And I actually remember thinking about this actually just before COVID happened, because I think, honestly, I think COVID has almost helped a lot.
00:55:51.940I think it has helped a lot of Christians understand the imprecatory Psalms a little more because it was kind of a taste of, you know what?
00:55:59.880Like things could get things could get bad.
00:56:01.880we are on the verge of, you know, civilization, as we know, it kind of hangs much more tenuously
00:56:07.460than we think it does. Because I remember thinking before COVID, just about what an anomaly in
00:56:12.680history it's been, the comfort and the peace we've enjoyed in the West. And just, I had this weird
00:56:18.800feeling, I'm not saying it was a, you know, prophecy or premonition or anything like that.
00:56:22.520But I remember having this thought of like, how long can this last? You know, how long can this,
00:56:27.440this, this, this, this, this piece and the security last because I live with such security
00:56:33.380compared to everybody else throughout history. And then COVID came, it was kind of like, yeah,
00:56:37.760I mean, it can, it can end fast. And of course there was enough pushback with COVID, but
00:56:42.640when you saw things break down, actually, I have a Christian friend of mine. I won't mention his
00:56:48.080name, but he was very anti-death penalty before COVID, you know, and, and now I was just talking
00:56:56.500to him a few weeks ago and he's he's very upset about the whole thing as as as christians should
00:57:01.840be and uh he i said so are you still against the death penalty he's like no not at all um in fact
00:57:09.860um in fact not only would i like to see him hang i'd like to see him squirm i was like whoa you
00:57:15.400know but i mean i i understand where he's coming from because after a fair trial of course but
00:59:04.580And then David prays this prayer against them that they'd be removed.
00:59:08.080Um, and there's some really strong language in there, but it's basically a Psalm that's basically prayed against wicked rulers. Like God remove them, take them down, take them off their throne, remove wicked rulers because they are, it'd be, it'd be loving to our neighbors to pray for these rulers to be removed.
00:59:25.540right um but anyway um the whole point being i think covid kind of gave us a taste of
00:59:32.400just how bad things could get if if you know if if the government really had no check and things
00:59:38.580got out of hand and also um sorry i lost the train of thought i was gonna say but um yeah anyway uh
00:59:46.300you can probably just realizing like how how long can this um this season of peace security and
00:59:52.380prosperity last. And then just realizing that, um, yeah, it really is, uh, the foundation is
00:59:57.900Christ. And it's, it's kind of like what the apostle Paul says in Romans 11, like, do not be
01:00:02.580arrogant. You do not support the root. The root supports you. Um, and so just recognizing that
01:00:08.000these are the blessings of God, the blessings of Liberty, um, are the blessings of God's law.
01:00:12.600James says that God's law is, um, we think of this as an irony, as a contradiction. Um, but
01:00:18.500in the mind of God, uh, one dot, there's a straight line to the next. Uh, God's law is the
01:00:24.260law of Liberty. And as we, uh, become antinomian and, um, and hate and spurn God's law, uh, we,
01:00:33.480we don't get cast off constraints, you know, like Psalm chapter two, the rules of this world,0.85
01:00:38.740they seek to break the bonds apart rather than gaining freedom and casting off religious
01:00:44.440constraint uh what we actually do is we uh we quickly erode and and evaporate liberties and
01:00:52.320apart from those liberties and the opportunities provided from them um there there goes prosperity
01:00:58.640and um stability and security and uh yeah you know the the old adage is you know at any point
01:01:07.020we're only i think it's uh nine meals away from anarchy you know it's it doesn't take much
01:01:12.220for for all of a sudden a prosperous place to to become hell on earth and all of a sudden the
01:01:19.980imprecatory psalms made perfect sense um and i was remembering what i was about to say i think
01:01:24.840i was even sharing this with some unbelievers recently uh i was actually somehow i got into
01:01:30.060a conversation about the imprecatory psalms well because i put them to music so you know that was
01:01:34.780one thing that came up uh was someone actually asked me why is the god of the old testament so
01:01:39.500different from the new. And of course I kind of walked him through, well, he really isn't, you
01:01:43.640know, here's, here's where he shows his love in the old Testament. Here's where he shows his wrath
01:01:47.920in the new. I was talking to the unbelievers and I was trying to say, yeah, there are some tough0.66
01:01:52.220passages to swallow in the Psalms. There are some things in there where people literally pray for
01:01:56.900other people to die. Like that's the kind of music I do. What kind of music do you guys do?
01:02:00.960And, um, I said, you know, everybody has those things that really make their blood boil.
01:02:06.020right i think sometimes that can be different for all of us you know like for some for me it's
01:02:10.400government tyranny like government tyranny just absolutely makes my blood boil it's just like i'm
01:02:14.800like no mercy go get them you know and almost gets to like almost an ungodly place of anger you know
01:02:21.420like that's what makes my blood boil and some people will say like it's you know child abuse
01:02:25.840that really oh man like i just you know fry them you know what i mean so like everybody has those
01:02:31.740things that make their blood boil so everybody understands the imprecatory psalms no one should
01:02:38.040sit in judgment of them because when we feel our blood boil that i think i think that's rooted in
01:02:42.680this desire to see justice done when something really wrong takes place so i think everybody
01:02:48.040does it and when i said that they were like oh yeah that makes sense i have things that make my
01:02:52.180blood boil so it would make sense that i would you know pray for judgment upon those people
01:02:56.020because i kind of do you know right yeah no you're absolutely right and i think one of the
01:03:02.200reasons why evangelical american christians um have had no category for imprecatory psalms
01:03:09.380is uh because for a long time i think we've kind of uh a lot of things haven't made our blood boil
01:03:19.000because we've been complacent, you know, like what makes David's blood boil is the wicked.1.00
01:03:28.540I think the closest that you can think of for a lot of the big Eva types,0.99
01:03:32.700Beth Moore, Russell Moore, Tim Keller, Rick Warren,0.85
01:03:37.180the closest that you could think of of these individuals getting angry,
01:03:41.760like what sets them off, what's their pet peeve, what makes their blood boil.0.99
01:03:46.140The biggest thing that makes their blood boil is Bible-believing Christians, actually.0.95
01:03:51.980There's no better way to make Beth more upset than to quote Scripture.0.90
01:03:56.700There's no better way to anger Russell more than to love Scripture and teach Scripture.
01:04:04.460So I think evangelicals for a long time haven't understood imprecatory Psalms,
01:04:09.260at least imprecatory Psalms targeting the wicked according to God's standards
01:04:14.460of righteousness and wickedness because we haven't loved righteousness and we haven't hated
01:04:21.160sin. If anything, we hate anybody who talks about sin because we think it's legalism.
01:04:28.500I guess what I'm saying is I think anger at wickedness, anger at evil, the first prerequisite
01:04:35.860is that you actually have to have a standard for deciphering between good and evil.
01:04:42.100And that's the law of God. And so I think for as long as American evangelicalism has been antinomian and has rejected the law of God for at least that long, likewise, we have consequently, we have not understood imprecatory psalms.
01:05:01.000We don't understand proper anger because we don't understand properly what we should be angry about and who we should be angry towards because we've gotten rid of the standard.
01:05:12.440And so evangelicalism has been anti-law for decades, for decades.
01:06:48.440if you love me you will obey obey what commands there are there are commands and and so it's not
01:06:57.080just here's a law of god so that you'll know that you're a sinner and that you need him
01:07:00.360but it's also that that's true that's the first use of god's law drives us to christ but having
01:07:05.780received christ now freely by grace through faith we now love god as a response not loving him trying
01:07:12.300to merit his love for us but loving him as a response of gratitude because he already loves us
01:07:17.620freely in Christ. But if we love him, it goes back to that definition of highest love, highest good
01:07:23.400and practical, tangible ways. Well, if we love Christ, that's going to be demonstrated
01:07:30.440through our obedience. Does he have any commandments? Love the Lord your God with
01:07:35.100all your heart, your soul and mind. Love your neighbor as yourself. Well, how do I love the
01:07:38.720Lord my God? Get a little bit more specific. What does that look like? Have no other gods before me.
01:07:43.480Do not make any graven images. Do not take the Lord's name in vain. How do I love my neighbor?
01:07:47.380Well, don't murder him. You can start with that. You can also honor your father and mother, your first neighbors when you come into the world. Don't steal from your neighbor. Don't commit adultery. Don't bear false witness against your neighbor. Lie about your neighbor and don't covet what your neighbor has. Envy, which is the root of all kinds of social justice.
01:08:04.780And so all that being said, when the evangelical church rids itself of God's law and because they think that somehow the law is, that it's either grace or the law and that you have to choose one or the other.
01:08:21.540And they have a misunderstanding of grace.
01:08:52.320The reason why we don't bring bulls and goats and lambs to church on Sunday to cut them open on the altar and let their blood roll down is not because God changed his mind.
01:20:29.840So we are totally listener supported by people who love God's word and who want who believe in this project, who believe that this is something Christendom needs right now is beautiful music, artistic music composed to the pure word of God.
01:20:46.440And so that's we're supported by right now, hundreds of people around the world.
01:20:50.420But we can always use more supporters because it's a very taxing and expensive.
01:20:55.680And as you can imagine, very epic project, putting entire Psalms to music.
01:21:00.280Our longest so far is Psalm 18, 50 verses.