The NXR Podcast - October 11, 2022


THEOLOGY APPLIED - Postmillennialism ｜ Will Few Be Saved？

Topics
overpopulation myths
Hosted by
Joel Webbon Harrison Smith Antonio Griffith Dale Partridge Wewsley Todd Calvin Robinson
Mentioned
Joseph Boot Nathan Anderson B.B. Warfield Joel Webin Jamie White Paul Washer Charles Spurgeon Doug Wilson Francis Schaeffer Andrew Santino Abraham Isaac Jacob Judas George Whitefield Kenneth Gentry George Grant Jeff Durbin Gary DeMar Bruce Gore and 9 more
DAILY TRUTH - Faithful Christianity In The Midst Of A Post Modern & Feminist Culture DAILY TRUTH - The Connection Between Doctrine & Character

Episode Stats


Length

1 hour and 7 minutes

Words per minute

175.78

Word count

11,915

Sentence count

555

Harmful content

Misogyny

1

sentences flagged

Toxicity

10

sentences flagged

Hate speech

29

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

In this episode, Pastor Joel Webbin sits down with filmmaker Nathan Anderson to discuss post-millennial eschatology and the question, "Will there be more people in heaven at the end of the age, or more in hell?"

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Topics generated with Qwen2.5-3B-Instruct.
Hosts, guests, and mentioned names generated with spaCy (en_core_web_sm), reconciled against Wikidata.
00:00:00 Hey guys, real quick, before we get started, I have a small request.
00:00:03 If you've been blessed by our content and you like this show,
00:00:06 would you take just a brief moment and leave us a five-star review?
00:00:09 This is quite possibly the most effective thing that you can do
00:00:12 to ensure that this content gets out to as many people as possible. Thanks.
00:00:17 All right, welcome to another episode of Theology Applied. I am your host,
00:00:21 Pastor Joel Webbin with Right Response Ministries. And in this episode,
00:00:24 I was very privileged to have my friend Nathan Anderson. Nathan Anderson is a
00:00:29 a guy who does film. He's made films primarily dealing with post-millennial eschatology. He
00:00:35 has a film called On Earth As It Is In Heaven, and he has a docu-series right now on the lore
00:00:40 platform called Teach All Nations. We talk at the beginning of the episode a little bit about his
00:00:46 career in film and about post-millennialism in general. But if you want to skip to the meat of
00:00:51 this episode, go ahead and just skip to about 10 or 12 minutes in where we focus our attention,
00:00:56 not just on post-millennial eschatology in general, but one specific question.
00:01:01 Will there be more people in heaven at the end of the age, or will there be more people
00:01:06 in hell?
00:01:07 And we argue for the former, that there will actually be more people in heaven, that Christ
00:01:13 is going to save more people than those who are lost.
00:01:18 If you had pressed on me even just a few years ago, not only would I have said that more
00:01:22 people will be in hell than heaven, I would have said most people will be in hell.
00:01:26 I would have said that at the end of the age, when Christ returns, that the vast majority of
00:01:31 heaven will, or the vast majority of humanity will be in hell, that hell will be 10 times the
00:01:37 population of heaven, a hundred times the population of heaven. And I do not believe
00:01:41 that any longer. And I'm going to use with Nathan Anderson, the scripture, not just wishful
00:01:47 thinking, not just a biased hashtag that post meal position, but actually the Bible, the Bible
00:01:55 to convince you, the listener, that heaven is going to be more populated than hell, that Christ
00:02:03 is going to be victorious even in the number of people that he saves. Tune in now. Wait, wait,
00:02:09 wait, wait, wait. Hold it. Big announcement, a scary announcement, a threat, but also a promise.
00:02:16 The price of our conference, the post-millennial and theonomy conference, it's going up.
00:02:20 it's going up right after Reformation Day. We are going to hold the price at $100,
00:02:26 which is super cheap for a three-day conference with Dr. James White, Dr. Joseph Boot, Dr. Gary
00:02:31 DeMar, and the guy who's not a doctor, so we'll say Pastor Joel Webin. We've got a great conference
00:02:36 May 5th, 6th, and 7th in Georgetown, Texas, just north of Austin for $100. Super cheap,
00:02:43 but we can't hold that price forever. So if you want to get into that price, you got to get in
00:02:48 And now, right after Reformation Day, not Halloween, Reformation Day, October 31st,
00:02:53 that's the last day that you can get in this conference, register at the price of $100.
00:02:58 After that, starting November 1st, it's going to be $130.
00:03:02 So go to rightresponseconference.com, rightresponseconference.com, and register today.
00:03:09 Thanks.
00:03:09 Applying God's Word to every aspect of life.
00:03:13 This is Theology Applied.
00:03:18 All right, so welcome to another episode of Theology Applied.
00:03:23 I am your host, Pastor Joel Webbin with Right Response Ministries, and I have Nathan Anderson.
00:03:28 Most notably, at least for myself personally, you are the director and probably a bunch of other
00:03:34 director, producer, star, you know, the whole nine yards for On Earth As It Is in Heaven,
00:03:39 which was a post-mill documentary, made a great case for post-millennial eschatology with Doug
00:03:45 Wilson, Kenneth Gentry, and a couple other guys that were main guys that you were interviewing
00:03:51 in that. And you've also recently done a docu-series, multiple episodes, that's right
00:03:57 now exclusive on Lore. And I believe they're still in their beta testing right now, but that's called
00:04:02 Teach All Nations. And the biggest star that you got for that was yours truly, myself. No,
00:04:07 I'm just kidding. But you got multiple guys and I was one of them. So all right, no more further
00:04:10 ado. Nathan, tell our listeners a little bit about who you are, film, post-mill, all that kind of
00:04:16 stuff. Yeah. Thanks, Joel. Thanks for having me on the show. So yeah, I'm a filmmaker based out of
00:04:23 Chile, South America, little coastal town called Pichilemu. I live here with my family and we
00:04:30 serve also at our local church. I serve as an elder at our local church here in town and make
00:04:38 films. That's what I've been mostly up to these days. That's awesome. Tell us a little bit about
00:04:42 Teach All Nations, the docu-series. How can somebody watch it right now? If they can't,
00:04:47 when will they be able to watch it? And what was your aim? What was your goal in that series?
00:04:53 So my goal with Teach All Nations was a follow-up to my first film, which is
00:04:58 On Earth As It Is In Heaven. And that film was kind of presenting the post-millennial perspective,
00:05:04 basically and this film was a little focused in digging into more of the practical implications
00:05:12 of post-millennialism in terms of christian worldview and how that affects you know how we
00:05:19 live our lives ultimately if we think that we still have a long way to go and we start thinking
00:05:26 in a multi-generational fashion how is that going to affect how we view our families how we view
00:05:34 economics, how we view just these different areas of life.
00:05:38 And so what I tried to do in Teach All Nations was just kind of have an introduction to a
00:05:43 lot of those different practical applications of a Christian world and life view, considering
00:05:51 this long-term post-millennial covenantal perspective.
00:05:56 Got you.
00:05:56 Yeah, that's kind of what I took away in watching.
00:05:59 I watched, I think, three times my wife and I.
00:06:01 She couldn't hang all three times.
00:06:03 she was like, all right, that's enough, Joel, turn it off, you know? Uh, but I watched three
00:06:07 times, you know, the, the, uh, the full length film on earth as it is in heaven. And that was
00:06:12 kind of like a case for post post mill. And then it seems like teach all nations was like, okay,
00:06:17 now if post mill, then, then what, you know, how, like, kind of like the Schaefer, you know,
00:06:22 Francis Schaefer, how then should we live or how should we then live? Um, I was getting backwards
00:06:27 or he might've done both. What, what, which one is it? How should we then live or how should we,
00:06:32 I think it's How Then Shall We Live.
00:06:34 How Then Shall We Live.
00:06:35 It might not, I don't know.
00:06:37 You might be right.
00:06:38 Yeah, our listeners, they get the point.
00:06:41 So basically, like, if this is true, what are the takeaways?
00:06:45 And it seems like that's what the docuseries is.
00:06:47 And you said it's on Lure right now, exclusively, right?
00:06:50 Yeah, so it's exclusively on Lure.
00:06:52 Right now, you can be a part of the Lure, kind of the beta stage, you know.
00:06:58 so you can actually um through lure get a link to sign up for free right now and watch all five
00:07:07 episodes of teach all nations and there's another show on there called dark collar as well that you
00:07:12 can watch if you're a lure beta user so for now it's free at some point you know they're going
00:07:18 to have a paid subscription but um yeah if you guys um want that want to um beyond that there's
00:07:26 a link you know you guys can sign up cool and we'll try to get that to you great and then who
00:07:31 are some of the guys who are the main forget so it was doug wilson kenneth gentry and then who
00:07:35 are the two other guys in um the first film on earth as it is in heaven so the first film um it
00:07:41 was uh yeah it was it was doug wilson ken gentry steve greg and bruce gore okay those are the the
00:07:50 four guys right and then who are some of the guys uh with the teach all nations did you get doug
00:07:55 wilson again did you get jeff yeah so i i interviewed yeah i interviewed wow i i did
00:08:02 17 interviews total for the second movie so i uh did a lot of interviews that that time around for
00:08:10 sure also partly because i you know went to the conference the fight laugh feast conference at
00:08:15 the time and so a lot of the i had more interviews but some of them were shorter right so there was
00:08:20 some 30 minute interviews and stuff like that. Um, but yeah, no, I, I got to interview, uh,
00:08:27 Dr. Gary North, uh, Dr. George Grant, Jeff Durbin, uh, pastor Doug Wilson, um, uh, James
00:08:37 White. I got an interview, Dr. James White. Um, Andrew, Andrew Sandlin. I got, wow. I got
00:08:44 to interview a lot of, of, of great guys during that project. Awesome. All right.
00:08:50 Well, let's go ahead and just jump right in.
00:08:53 So here we go.
00:08:54 I'm just going to, yes or no question.
00:08:56 At the end of the age, when it's all said and done, after Jesus' final return, will
00:09:01 there be more people in heaven or will there be more people in hell?
00:09:07 That's the million dollar question, isn't it?
00:09:11 I said yes or no, but then I actually phrased the question in a way that it's not yes or
00:09:14 no.
00:09:15 Heaven or hell?
00:09:16 What's going to have the bigger population? 0.93
00:09:18 Heaven or hell?
00:09:19 What do you think?
00:09:20 Well, if you ask most evangelicals these days, they'll probably say, you know, hell, or they'll say, I don't know, that's, you know, that's, that's above my pay grade.
00:09:31 You know, I don't, I don't want to, you know, think about that or get into that.
00:09:35 But usually those that, you know, are willing to give an answer would probably say, I mean, obviously, there's going to be more people in hell, you know, I mean, we look through history and most people aren't Christians, right? 0.62
00:09:50 Most people aren't following Christ. And so if that, you know, pattern is what we are to expect, then we have no reason to believe otherwise. Right. And they would even point to certain biblical passages, you know, narrows the way, you know, they say few are they that find it. 0.82
00:10:12 And so there is this whole idea that a lot of people have that the Bible actually teaches that, you know, few people will be saved, most people will be lost, and that's kind of, you know, that's just pretty fundamental to a lot of people's thinking.
00:10:32 And so then they hear something like post-mill, you know, like perspective that, oh, well, we believe that in the future, right, that, you know, there's going to be more people saved and that, you know, actually the nations are going to become Christian.
00:10:48 And, you know, there's just going to be this, this just amazing extended period of blessing on the earth. And they hear that and that just breaks with a lot of that paradigm. And so a lot of times they just say, well, you know, post, therefore post-millennialism is wrong because it, it conflicts with this other paradigm I have, you know, and, and, you know, they, they'll say something like, you know,
00:11:18 If they're, you know, a bit more sophisticated in their response, they'll say, you know, you have an over-realized eschatology or something like that.
00:11:30 And so, yeah, that's why this question becomes, I think, pretty interesting and pretty important to consider, you know, does the Bible really teach that more people will be lost than those that will be saved, ultimately?
00:11:48 And I, you know, as a post-millennialist, my I think the answer to that question is no, that there will be more people saved than lost, you know, when because, you know, the Westminster Confession of Faith teaches, for example, that the number of the elect is fixed.
00:12:08 So there's there's a number, you know, we don't know, you know, we don't know the number, but there is a number and that number is fixed.
00:12:14 And and once everybody's been born, that's going to be born. Right. There that number is not going to shift, basically. And and so it's not like, you know, it's not like we think that there's going to be future generations in eternity or or something like that. Right.
00:12:33 So there's a cutoff point in terms of X amount of humans are going to be born throughout history, and some of those are going to be saved, some of those are going to be lost.
00:12:45 And so that's, you know, that's basically how we begin to consider this question, ultimately.
00:12:53 And whatever that number is, according to Revelation, that's a number that no man can count.
00:12:58 So, okay, so playing the devil's advocate, getting into, you know, some of the scripture
00:13:02 that would, that people would use, you know, because a lot of people that, you know, I
00:13:06 know what you're saying and I agree with what you're saying, but people would, they'd say,
00:13:09 no, it's not my paradigm, my paradigm, Nathan.
00:13:12 It's what the Bible plainly teaches.
00:13:14 It's right here, Matthew chapter 7, verse 13 and 14.
00:13:17 Enter by the narrow gate, for the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction
00:13:22 and those who enter by it are many.
00:13:24 for the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life and those who find it are few
00:13:31 right there there it is black and white few are going to be able to find this narrow gate
00:13:38 and the way that leads to life that is hard it's a difficult way and it leads to life
00:13:44 but to the contrary there are going to be many who who go on this easy way this broad path this
00:13:53 wide gate that leads to destruction. This is from what I've heard from people and what I used to
00:14:00 quote myself when I thought that hell would be far more populated than heaven. This is what I
00:14:06 would point to. And just for the record, I, you know, I never put a number on it and I don't
00:14:09 really know anybody who does. I'm sure there's a few wackos out there, you know, but nobody's 1.00
00:14:14 really saying like this exact number is going to hell and this exact number is going to heaven.
00:14:18 And nobody's doing that on the post-mill side. Nobody's doing that on pre-mill and all-mill
00:14:22 side. But if you had pressed me and said, okay, well, you know, in terms of percentages, Joel,
00:14:29 you think there's going to be more people in hell. Do you think like more people like 51%
00:14:33 versus 49? And I would have said, no, I think more like 80% versus 20 or 90% versus 10.
00:14:41 Like, not just like hell is slightly more populated than heaven, but that hell has like
00:14:49 close to 10 times the population of heaven, maybe even, maybe even more, maybe heaven is one
00:14:55 hundredth of the population of hell. And I would have hung my hat on the text. I just read Matthew
00:15:01 chapter seven, verse 13 and 14. I have some, you know, some, some ways to counter that now from
00:15:07 the scripture and not just, just anybody, you know, again, playing the devil's advocate of
00:15:10 somebody say, well, you know, Nathan sitting here, he's quoting the Westminster confession,
00:15:14 the man-made document, you know, well, the Westminster Confession is authoritative. It's
00:15:20 not the final arbiter of all truth, but it is an authority. But we have scripture to debate this,
00:15:25 but I want to give you the first swing at it, Nathan. What would you say to somebody who's
00:15:30 quoting Matthew 7, 13 and 14 as their quintessential proof text that hell is going to have way more
00:15:37 people than heaven? Yeah, yeah, definitely. Just to emphasize your point for a second, though,
00:15:44 that we're we're not debating for example like uh you know is um you know is nine percent of
00:15:52 of all humanity or seven percent of all humanity going to end up in heaven right you know that's
00:15:58 that's not the the it's it's not just this minuscule little difference here right like
00:16:04 what we're talking about is much larger scale is like are most people because right you know
00:16:09 really what what people are saying and a lot of times i think people don't even realize
00:16:14 you know that they believe this but then when you lay it out they're like oh yeah i guess i do believe
00:16:18 right like they really do believe that you know a minuscule percentage if they had to put a number
00:16:23 a minuscule percentage of the population is going to end up in heaven right they don't believe more
00:16:28 people will be in hell they believe most people will yeah it's it's not like uh you know debating
00:16:33 54 versus 52 or something like that like this is we're not nitpicking here where it's it's a much
00:16:41 larger scale issue. And so, but when we look at, you know, passages like the one you mentioned in
00:16:48 Matthew 7, the question we have to ask ourselves is in the context, is Jesus giving this rule or
00:16:58 general view for all of human history, right? Basically, as to how many are, you know, saved
00:17:08 and how many are lost in that sense.
00:17:12 Is that the way we're supposed to take that text?
00:17:14 Right.
00:17:14 Is this a prophetic prediction for all people in all places in all time?
00:17:18 Or, back to you.
00:17:20 Yeah.
00:17:21 Or is he speaking specifically to the audience that he was speaking to?
00:17:27 Is there something specific in that context that applies to what he's saying in this text?
00:17:36 Right.
00:17:36 And I've come to the conclusion, as many others, that he is speaking of that generation and that we're listening to him speak.
00:17:48 You know, ultimately, the question is, of that generation, are many going to be saved or are most going to be lost?
00:17:55 And he basically says that most are going to be lost.
00:17:58 And that's what happened. 0.52
00:18:00 I mean, most of the Jews rejected Jesus in that generation.
00:18:04 There were some, you know, like Paul says, you know, in Romans 11, it's not, you know, that, you know, he says, I'm a Jew.
00:18:12 And he talks about the fact that there is a remnant, right?
00:18:16 And it's actually very interesting that the only context, the New Testament, as far as I can tell, uses the term remnant applied in the New Testament.
00:18:26 He's talking about Jewish believers.
00:18:28 It's not talking about the church in general, right?
00:18:31 And so, he doesn't use that language of the church necessarily.
00:18:36 He uses it of a group within the church, which is these Jewish believers.
00:18:41 Most of the Jews rejected Jesus, but this remnant, including Paul, didn't reject the Messiah, ultimately.
00:18:50 And so, I think that is what is being spoken of. 0.63
00:18:54 Now, someone could say, okay, well, that's convenient, you know.
00:18:58 So, it's just talking about the first century or whatever.
00:19:04 But I think when we actually look at some of the other places where Jesus uses this language, it can be very helpful.
00:19:12 When we cross-reference, you know, Matthew 7, for example, with Luke chapter 13, right, where it talks about, you know, the narrow door.
00:19:22 And, you know, in Luke 13, 23, someone asked Jesus, Lord, will those who are saved be few, right?
00:19:30 And he uses almost, you know, very similar language, strive to enter the narrow door, you know, for many, I tell you, we'll see.
00:19:36 But it's interesting when you come on down to verse 26, he's talking about, you know, the people that are knocking on the door, trying to get let in.
00:19:48 Right, who are they?
00:19:49 and yeah and the master you know closes the door and what do they say they say in verse 26
00:19:53 then they will begin to say we ate and drank in your presence and you taught in our streets
00:20:00 right right that's talking that's talking about people in 2022 in america right right yeah we all
00:20:06 we've all yeah i saw i saw jesus just yesterday he was he was in the street and i you know and
00:20:13 we ate and we drank it like and that's so you know obviously i'm being facetious you know and
00:20:17 borderline blasphemous, so I apologize. I need to back up a little bit. But that's what I wish
00:20:23 people understood in their hermeneutic, that when we read scripture, all scripture is for us,
00:20:26 not all scripture is directly to us. Like all scripture is for us, but it's not all to us in
00:20:32 the sense that we are not in America or in Chile, and in the year of our Lord, 2022, we are not
00:20:39 the immediate audience that Jesus is speaking to. He is speaking for our benefit. The word of God
00:20:45 is still it's inerrant it's infallible it's sufficient um and it's for us uh but but it's
00:20:52 not directly this text is not directly to us it tells us who his immediate audience is the people
00:20:58 it's the people who are in his presence who ate and drank in your presence and taught
00:21:02 jesus taught in their streets so i 100 agree go on i'm sorry right yeah and so i i believe this
00:21:10 you know this really clears that up to a certain extent as to say oh wow okay so he's talking about
00:21:16 people that ate and drank with him that actually physically saw him preaching in their streets
00:21:23 that's not talking about our day that's talking about you know something that happened 2 000 years
00:21:28 ago um and so obviously if if that's the case it it does not apply directly to us i mean maybe
00:21:36 someone could say, well, yeah, it applied to them, but he's also speaking of this general rule. But
00:21:41 then you'd have to, you know, figure out where this general rule comes from, because you're not
00:21:46 going to get it from these texts, right? So, you have to go somewhere else to establish that. But
00:21:52 then there's something else that's even more interesting here, is when you, you know, it
00:21:57 talks about in verse 28, you know, you know, these people, you know, going to a place with weeping,
00:22:04 gnashing of teeth, you know, and it says, you will see Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and all the
00:22:09 prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves cast out. But then it, look at what it says in
00:22:15 verse 29, it says, and the people will come, sorry, and people will come from the east, the west,
00:22:22 the north, the south, and recline at the table in the kingdom of God. And so, it talks about another
00:22:27 group of people, right? So, this first group of people, you know, for the most part, will end up
00:22:34 in a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth. And they won't be with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob
00:22:39 in the kingdom of God. But this other group of people will recline at the table of the kingdom
00:22:45 of God. And these people will come from east, west, north, south. But then we go back to Matthew
00:22:50 and we go to Matthew chapter eight, right? And yeah, I think it's chapter eight with the story
00:22:57 of the yeah we're the story of the centurion and you jesus uses almost identical language here he
00:23:06 says i tell you many will come from the east west and recline at the table with abraham so notice
00:23:13 notice the slight difference there for the um luke just says people will come but here it says
00:23:18 many will come right and so here we're told that which verses are quickly that's matthew 8 uh verse
00:23:25 what verse 11 matthew 8 11 and then it says in in verse 8 12 it says well the sons of the kingdom
00:23:35 will be thrown into the outer darkness right a place where there's weeping and gnashing of teeth
00:23:40 so again we have this contrast as in luke 13 we have this contrast between right the the the jews 0.69
00:23:48 who for the most part reject jesus in that generation and are thrown into outer darkness 0.53
00:23:54 And then this multitude that comes from, you know, the east, the west, the north, the south, and comes into the kingdom of God.
00:24:04 And so that's what's being taught here.
00:24:07 It's not this general rule that, oh, just for all of history, most people are going to reject the Messiah.
00:24:16 Most people are going to end up in hell.
00:24:18 No, what's being taught is that in that generation, unfortunately, most people rejected Jesus.
00:24:25 But after that generation is judged, and they were judged, right, in 70 AD and all of that,
00:24:33 then the gospel goes out and really, you know, changes the world.
00:24:38 Right.
00:24:38 And all the nations flow in to the kingdom of God.
00:24:42 Amen.
00:24:43 Another thing that's interesting, Luke chapter 13, so that you, you were picking up with
00:24:47 verse 23.
00:24:49 So Luke 13, starting verse 23, someone asked him, right?
00:24:52 Just explicitly, you know, asking, will those who are saved be few, right?
00:24:57 And, and, you know, and it's that same language that we found in Matthew chapter seven, verse
00:25:01 13 and 14, strive to enter through the narrow gate, you know, but then it culminates in
00:25:06 verse 26 by specifically saying, you know, that the people who are, are cast out where
00:25:11 there's weeping and gnashing of teeth. They're the people that Jesus, you know, one of their claims
00:25:15 to, to, that they, they deserve salvation, that they have a right rights to Jesus is that we ate
00:25:23 and drank in your presence and you taught in our streets, right? And so you covered all that. And
00:25:26 then it goes down to, you know, verse 29, but people will come. And then we cross reference
00:25:31 over to Matthew chapter eight, that it's not just people, but many, many will come from East and
00:25:36 West. And so the sons of the kingdom, the Jews of that generation, not all of them, but the Jews
00:25:42 of Jesus' generation. So it's not even just that time, but that particular place and a particular
00:25:48 kind of person in that particular place at that particular time, the majority of them rejected
00:25:54 Christ, right? He came to his own, but they received him not. But then by contrast, from the
00:25:58 East and the West, all these Gentile nations are flowing to him and it's, you know, people are 0.99
00:26:02 coming, that's verse 29 in Luke 13. But then, like you said, cross-referencing to Matthew chapter 8, 1.00
00:26:08 it's not just people, but it's many. One other thing I wanted to point out in the beginning of
00:26:12 Luke chapter 13, not the very beginning of the chapter, but before getting to verse 23,
00:26:18 where they ask, will those who are saved be few? If we back up to verse 18, so just a few verses
00:26:24 before, here's the context leading into that question, will those who are saved be few?
00:26:29 at least the context as Luke, the human author, inspired by the Spirit, writes it down.
00:26:36 Luke finds it pertinent to mention this in verse 18 as he's setting this framework.
00:26:42 He says,
00:26:43 He said, therefore, what is he being Jesus?
00:26:46 What is the kingdom of God like?
00:26:48 And to what shall I compare it?
00:26:50 It is like a grain of mustard seed that a man took and sowed in his garden,
00:26:54 and it grew and became a tree.
00:26:56 and the birds of the air made their nest in its branches. And again, verse 20 now, he said,
00:27:03 to what shall I compare the kingdom of God? It is like leaven that a woman took and hid 1.00
00:27:07 in three measures of flour until it was all leavened. And so that's the context is first,
00:27:15 Jesus is describing the nature. And in describing the nature, I don't think it's merely the nature,
00:27:21 But I think it also includes the scope of the kingdom of God, that it is something that
00:27:26 like a little bit of leaven, it's worked in, it's gradual, right?
00:27:31 It starts small, grows slowly, but becomes significant.
00:27:35 In fact, according to, you know, to what Jesus is saying here, the way he's describing,
00:27:40 it's not just significant, but it becomes all encompassing that, you know, the leaven
00:27:44 leavens all of the whole batch of dough, you know, and this mustard seed, you know, this
00:27:50 tree. It's a great tree. And so, you know, and then we have like Daniel chapter two, right? The
00:27:55 stone cut with no human hands that shatters the kingdoms of this world, but then replaces the
00:28:02 kingdoms of this world and grows into a mountain that fills the whole earth. So that's the framework
00:28:07 is Jesus describing the nature and scope of the kingdom of God, which is it starts small,
00:28:12 It grows slowly, but it becomes a significant, overwhelming, massive force.
00:28:19 And then, then comes the question in verse 23 of Luke chapter 13, will those who are
00:28:25 saved be few?
00:28:27 And you're absolutely right.
00:28:28 Like Jesus, his answer, if we were to, you know, to give a synopsis, if we were to make
00:28:34 it more concise, his answer is yes, those who are saved are going to be few as it pertains
00:28:40 to you guys right here asking me the question. Your people in this place at this time,
00:28:49 there will be few of you saved because of hardness of heart, because of unbelief,
00:28:56 because I came to my own and they received me not. But then he goes on and makes it really clear
00:29:04 that, but he's not saying that the number of the saved will be few throughout all of the
00:29:10 human of human history in all places in all times by saying many will come from east and west so
00:29:16 it's anyway so i i just say all that to say i agree with you and i think that matthew 7 if we
00:29:21 take matthew 7 13 and 14 that everyone that's like the proof text that i used to use everybody uses
00:29:27 to say not just uh that hell will slightly be overpopulated from heaven 51 versus 49 but but
00:29:35 most people will say, if you press them, they'll say, yeah, hell will be far more populated than
00:29:40 heaven. Heaven will be a sliver of humanity. That's the proof text, Matthew chapter 7, 13 and 14.
00:29:46 And all you have to do is just pan out from Matthew 7, 13 and 14, look at Luke 13, cross-referencing,
00:29:52 same language. And then also look from Luke 13 and pan out and cross-reference back to Matthew
00:29:57 chapter 8, verse 11. And when you take all that into context with, I think, faithful hermeneutics
00:30:05 and reading the scripture, it seems like the answer is clear.
00:30:08 This is, Jesus is not saying few will be saved as a prophetic prediction for all places in
00:30:16 all time.
00:30:16 He's speaking to that people in that generation, in that place.
00:30:21 And the main point that he has in Matthew 7, 13 and 14 is not about few versus many,
00:30:28 but it seems like the main point that he's making is about the difficulty of the way
00:30:33 that leads to eternal life. He's saying it's narrow, it's difficult. Few ever find it. I
00:30:40 don't think that the emphasis is in numbers. I think the emphasis, if anything, is in difficulty.
00:30:46 There's one way that is broad and easy, but there's this other way that is narrow and hard,
00:30:52 difficult. Any further thoughts on that? Yeah, yeah. And well, just to connect with what you
00:30:58 were saying about you know the the the parable of the mustard seed and how that connects to
00:31:03 to all this um because um what we learn from that is that the kingdom of god grows slowly
00:31:14 right like a mustard seed and it grows progressively in history right because obviously
00:31:20 you know if you planted a must a seed tomorrow and you took a lawn chair you know and sat outside
00:31:27 to watch it grow, you know, that's going to be a pretty boring afternoon. You know, you're not
00:31:33 going to see much. And that's the way the kingdom of God grows. It grows slowly, sometimes even
00:31:38 imperceptibly, right, in that sense. And so, what we are seeing throughout history is this
00:31:47 progressive advance of the kingdom. Now, obviously, and this is an important point, if Christ returned
00:31:54 tomorrow, right? If Christ returned tomorrow, we would have to conclude that most people
00:32:01 in history are going to end up in hell, right? Because when we look back from this point at
00:32:08 human history throughout all generations, as far as we can tell, you know, most people have not
00:32:17 followed Yahweh. Most people have not been Christians. Most people have not followed Christ. 0.94
00:32:22 And so, from that perspective, you know, if Christ returned tomorrow, then yeah, most people would be lost.
00:32:32 But if we understand that this is something that's happening progressively in history, and we understand that if more are going to be saved than lost, then most of the elect are still not yet born.
00:32:46 Right.
00:32:46 Right. And that's an important point that there's still greater things in the future of the church than have been in the present and have occurred in the past.
00:32:57 Then we understand that the scope of the work that Christ is accomplishing, his work of redemption, is a lot more massive than most people consider.
00:33:10 consider, right? Because most people consider and think, well, we're probably living in the last
00:33:16 days. We're probably, Christ is probably about to return at any moment. When actually, it's a lot
00:33:24 more probable we're living in the early church, right? And that actually there's more and greater
00:33:33 things ahead of us than behind us at this point, which is strange for a lot of people to consider
00:33:39 Because, again, it goes against just certain paradigms that many have, you know, embraced along those lines.
00:33:48 Yeah, no, that's an important point, because I think some people think that post-millennials are lowering the bar for salvation, right?
00:33:56 That, like, basically, like, post-millennials, like, if you think more people are going to be saved than lost, then you must be counting all the members at Joel Osteen's church.
00:34:03 And so I'll just take a moment and pause here and just remind the listener that, you know,
00:34:08 I'm post-millennial, but I'm also a Calvinist through and through.
00:34:13 Like I'm the type of guy who enjoys hearing a sermon from Doug Wilson and also really
00:34:18 enjoys hearing a sermon from Paul Washer.
00:34:22 You know, so like we're not lowering the bar and saying, you know, that we think a lot
00:34:26 of people are going to be in heaven because it doesn't really take that much to be saved 0.72
00:34:30 and you can have this mediocre Christian light, fake salvation, and you can accept a prosperity
00:34:38 gospel and that'll be sufficient. And no, we're saying the reason why we think more people will 0.73
00:34:43 be saved is not because more people have been saved thus far, but because we just don't think
00:34:48 that we're at the end yet. And we don't think we could be wrong, but we don't think that Jesus is
00:34:53 coming back in the next 15 minutes. So the post-millennial baked into the pie in that
00:34:59 eschatology is like, we, we really do pretty much every post-millennial that I've talked to
00:35:04 believes that, that we're looking at not just a few more decades or even a few more centuries,
00:35:10 but, but very likely a few more millennia before the return of Christ, that thousands of more
00:35:16 years. And another thing to consider, and this is just a practical element, but another thing
00:35:20 to consider is it's like, okay, but you know, like if, if you're you know, a six day literal
00:35:25 creationist, you know, young earth, which, which I am, you know, if, if you hold to that kind of
00:35:31 creation theology and you're saying, all right, I'm going to date the world at like maybe six,
00:35:36 maybe 8,000 years, somewhere in that range, you know, and like, even if Jesus tarries for like
00:35:42 another six, 8,000 years, you're talking about like, he would have to save pretty much, you know,
00:35:47 everybody on the planet for the next 6,000 years steady, saving everyone in order for your numbers
00:35:53 to add up. And I would just point out one other, you know, major factor, which is the population
00:35:59 of the planet today is massively larger than the population of the planet for virtually every
00:36:10 single century up until just like 50, 60 years ago. Like you look at a graph of just the human
00:36:16 population, the way that it's exponentially grown. And there are some problems right now,
00:36:21 especially in Western nations in terms of depopulation, as people become disenchanted
00:36:27 with family and children and those kinds of things, as we've turned our back on the cultural
00:36:31 mandate to be fruitful and multiply, you know, like even Elon Musk, you know, who's, as far as 0.87
00:36:36 I can tell, a pagan, you know, he's not a Christian, but even he has enough in God's
00:36:40 common grace, enough sense and logic to recognize, man, we don't have overpopulation threats or
00:36:47 potential problems. We have depopulation, underpopulate. We need more people. And so
00:36:52 my point is just to say that if you're looking at like the last six to 8,000 years, you know,
00:36:58 we may have 8.2 billion people, give or take, on the planet today. But the average, if we took an
00:37:04 average number of people on the planet over the last six, 8,000 years, there weren't that many
00:37:11 people. There just weren't that many people. So even if 99% of them went to hell, there weren't
00:37:16 that many people. And if we're saying there's going to be another six to 8,000 years and possibly
00:37:20 30,000, you know, but like another, you know, six to 8,000 years, uh, but the average, uh,
00:37:25 population, total world population for this second half of human history, um, is, is, you know,
00:37:32 20 billion people, 50 billion people, a hundred billion people, maybe a trillion people, you know,
00:37:37 like we don't, we don't know. I mean, a whole world population right now could fit in Texas
00:37:41 comfortably, you know? So like everybody who's, you know, these myths of overpopulation,
00:37:46 all that, even that is just, it's a basic misunderstanding of what people are, right?
00:37:51 You have bad anthropology because you have bad theology. You don't know who God is. So you don't
00:37:55 know who man is. So you think like, we don't need more people because you have labeled people as
00:37:59 predominantly consumers, right? Who knows out of, out of the 60 million plus children who have been
00:38:05 murdered in their mother's womb, just since Roe, you know, in, in just in my nation, in the United
00:38:10 States of America, well, hey, that's 60 million less mouths to feed, is it? Or out of those 60
00:38:16 million kids, who would have grown up and figured out new technology for agriculture and producing
00:38:21 more crops? And who would have done this? And who would have potentially cured cancer? And who,
00:38:24 like, are people consumers first and foremost, or are they made in the image of God and capable
00:38:30 of incredible things? And so who knows what God might do just in his common grace, much less
00:38:36 special grace and gospel advancement to be able to stabilize, not only that we could survive,
00:38:42 but actually thrive with a higher quality of living, but supporting a hundred times the
00:38:47 current human population on this planet. And that's not even to speak of possibilities of
00:38:52 going to the moon and setting up a base there or Mars or whatever else. And if there's 6,000 more
00:38:57 years and you've got on average, like a hundred or a thousand times, just the total population
00:39:03 of humanity than you had for the first 6,000 to 8,000 years. But the Great Commission is
00:39:08 successful. The leaven is working through the whole batch of dough. And it's not just that
00:39:12 the leaven is spreading, but the batch of dough itself is exponentially growing. It's a bigger
00:39:17 pile of dough. Then, yeah, just practically speaking, aside from looking at some of the
00:39:24 scriptures, just logically speaking for a moment, the numbers easily add up. You could easily have
00:39:30 Not just, not just in the same way that, you know, most guys would say, it's not just 51%
00:39:35 going to hell and 49% going, they would say, no, the vast majority in hell.
00:39:40 Well, well, you could, as a post-millennial say, no, not just 51% heaven and 49% hell,
00:39:46 but the vast majority going to heaven, that heaven could really be a number that no man,
00:39:52 really be an amount of people that no man could number.
00:39:56 That makes hell look like just a tiny little group of people in terms of comparison.
00:40:04 There will be millions of people in hell.
00:40:05 From what we can tell in human history and what we know about church history, there are millions of people in hell right now.
00:40:11 Possibly a few billion people in hell right now.
00:40:15 But there could be trillions in heaven.
00:40:19 That's correct.
00:40:20 And I think it's important also to point out that it, you know, this idea also just goes naturally with the flow of Scripture and the language of the New Testament.
00:40:34 And, I mean, think about, you know, a lot of people have pointed this out, Warfield and others, this idea that Jesus is called multiple times the Savior of the world, you know, especially in the writings of John.
00:40:48 and think about how odd that would you know that would be as a title if in fact 99 of the world is
00:40:56 lost you know and um you know and and yeah people you know calvinists armenians kind of you know
00:41:04 fight about those texts you know for god so loved the world you know what does that mean and you
00:41:10 know calvinists say yeah it's the world is the elect and armenians say no you know it's a potential
00:41:15 salvation you know for everybody but right but ultimately they both most of them agree that
00:41:20 you know whatever you know that's supposed to mean it you know few are going to be saved right
00:41:26 right the armenian is going to say that it's each and every individual potential but only a few take
00:41:31 them up and then the calvinist is going to say it's not universalism like like potential for
00:41:35 each and every individual but world meaning globally like that god didn't just so love
00:41:39 israel but he loved brazil and china and everybody else and he but same but when you get down to
00:41:44 brass tacks who's taking you know who is god either electing or on the minian side of the
00:41:48 aisle who's actually taking god up on this offer of salvation both the calvinist and arminian agree
00:41:52 um very few right and it's and yeah and obviously god loved europe more than he loved you know most
00:42:00 of the other continents and most of the other nations because you know most of the people in
00:42:04 heaven are going to be european uh you know it would seem according to those demographics if
00:42:10 If Jesus came back, if he came back right now.
00:42:12 If Jesus came back, you know, tomorrow, that would have to be. 0.98
00:42:16 Well, really, if he came back about 100 years before today, then for sure it'd be primarily white. 0.98
00:42:23 But, yeah.
00:42:24 But, and it's, that's another interesting point that, you know, a lot of people say, you know, how can you think, you know, the gospel's advancing and Christianity's advancing, you know, look at Europe, you know, it's horrible how, you know, the Christianity has declined in Europe, you know.
00:42:40 the 16th century 17th century was kind of the uh you know the the golden age or something like
00:42:47 that but in reality you go back to that time and you ask well how many christians were there in
00:42:52 africa or how many christians were there in china you know yeah there was there was a great number
00:42:56 of christians in europe but the rest of the world i mean there's more christians alive today than
00:43:01 any other point in human history you know right and so um like combined almost yeah yeah i mean
00:43:09 it's amazing the number of people who are Christians today all over the world in that
00:43:16 sense. And so, I think it's very important to take that into account and to consider that the
00:43:23 future, all this language that the Bible uses, you know, of Jesus being the Savior of the world
00:43:30 is not accidental. It's, you know, in that sense, it's intentional because Christ really will
00:43:38 redeem most of the world when all is said and done you know he really will be the savior of the world
00:43:46 not the savior of every last man woman and child obviously you know we do believe people are in
00:43:50 hell but in general the majority if we believe the majority of the world is going to be saved
00:43:56 then savior of the world is a totally appropriate title that's right for for christ and so yeah i
00:44:03 think it's it's important to to point that out i think it's also important to and you know i'm
00:44:09 gonna let um i'm gonna let charles spurgeon make this point you know so people don't get mad at me
00:44:14 um but um you know even armenians like charles spurgeon so yeah i mean you most people like
00:44:21 charles spurgeon so i'll let him say it um he he said this he said how often do i hear people say
00:44:27 ah, straight is the gate and narrow is the way and few there be that find it. There will be very
00:44:34 few in heaven and most will be lost. My friend, I differ with you. Do you think that Christ will
00:44:42 let the devil beat him? That he will let the devil have more in hell than there are in heaven? No,
00:44:49 it is impossible for then Satan would laugh at Christ. There will be more in heaven than there
00:44:56 are among the lost goss says that there will be a number that no man can count who will be saved
00:45:02 but he never says there will be a number that no man can number that will be lost there will be a
00:45:09 host beyond all count who will be who will get into heaven you know that's what charles spurgeon
00:45:15 said and so he just that postman spurgeon huh yeah i mean he's um uh it's interesting though
00:45:21 because he's kind of, you know, mixed on his eschatology, you know, probably more of a
00:45:26 premillennialist, but he had that Puritan, you know, influence, that Puritan hope there as well.
00:45:32 And so it's very interesting what he's saying, because he's saying, look, I mean, if Christ
00:45:39 was the victor, if Christ defeated Satan, it's kind of strange for after defeating Satan, then
00:45:47 Satan just, you know, ends up taking nine-tenths of the human race to hell with him, you know,
00:45:56 for the next few thousand years, right? That's kind of a strange outcome. And, you know, people,
00:46:06 Christians, evangelicals have come up with all kinds of creative ways of justifying that and
00:46:12 saying that if you even bring up the numbers thing, you're just not spiritual. You're just
00:46:18 not thinking of the gospel in a Christ-centric kind of a way. You're thinking in a worldly way
00:46:28 or something like that. So apparently Spurgeon was very worldly when he pointed the obvious out
00:46:35 that, you know, well, if, you know, if Christ defeated Satan and, but then somehow Satan is
00:46:40 able to drag, you know, most of people in the rest of history with him to hell, that's kind of
00:46:48 a strange scenario in that sense. And counterintuitive to what, you know, we see in terms
00:46:56 of the history of redemption. And so, so I think it's a great point that he brings up. I think it's
00:47:04 an important point um and again it's a it's a point that i see you know uh amillennialists and
00:47:13 and you know well definitely pre-millennialists but amillennialists especially struggle with
00:47:17 because they have you know on the one hand they're saying well satan's bound right he can't
00:47:24 deceive the nations anymore but on the other hand somehow bound he's able to you know remain in
00:47:31 control of most of the nations right he's able to keep everybody for the most part under his thumb
00:47:39 except for you know a few exceptions and you know and to iron man the the you know the all millennial
00:47:45 as best we can and not just you know you know i'm not saying that you're doing this but to
00:47:49 if anybody you know would accuse us of using a straw man to iron man them as best we can you
00:47:53 know they would say well no it's not so much that you know satan you know yes we believe he was bound
00:47:58 you know, Jesus bound the strong man, and now we're plundering the house, you know, one gospel
00:48:02 proclamation at a time, the Great Commission going forward, plundering the house. But it proves to be
00:48:07 unsuccessful, not because the strong man, Satan, that has been bound by Christ is still operating
00:48:14 with such vigor and such power, but because of simply just the power of the flesh, right? That
00:48:19 there are three great enemies that we face. The devil is one of them, but there's also the world,
00:48:23 there's also the flesh. And, uh, because of just the doctrine of total depravity runs so deep,
00:48:29 uh, the curse of sin runs so deep. It's not so much that the devil is still deceiving the nations.
00:48:34 He's no longer deceiving the nations, but the nations are deceiving themselves to which, 0.61
00:48:38 so that I would say that that's a fair representation of the all millennial. That's 0.96
00:48:42 more of an iron man representation of their view, but still the counter would still be the same.
00:48:47 Okay, so then, you know, so Christ beats the devil, but Christ can't beat sin, right? 0.94
00:48:55 Because it's still Christ being a loser.
00:48:59 Christ ultimately, whether his opponent is Satan directly beating Christ, or whether 0.69
00:49:04 the opponent is simply the curse, the curse of sin beating Christ, right?
00:49:09 But everybody becomes a postman around Christmas time, right?
00:49:11 You know, we all, we sing those, those, you know, as far as the curse is found, far as
00:49:17 the, you know, like how far does the redemption go?
00:49:19 How victorious will Christ be?
00:49:21 Like, does he just bind Satan or does he also, does he conquer sin?
00:49:25 You know, and, and, and what are the implications of that?
00:49:28 Back to you.
00:49:30 Right.
00:49:30 And my question would be, when has the flesh ever thwarted the purposes of God in history?
00:49:37 Right.
00:49:37 Right.
00:49:38 When has that happened?
00:49:39 Right.
00:49:40 We believe in the sovereignty of God. We, you know, we believe in a God who even worked through, you know, Joseph's brothers doing, you know, that the flesh did not defeat God's purposes in that case or in any other case in history.
00:49:57 And so, you know, whether it's the devil's plans, whether it's the flesh, if God has a purpose, he's sovereign, he's going to accomplish it in history.
00:50:07 And so, really, the only recourse that someone would have is to say, well, God, you know, Jesus just doesn't really want the nations in this age.
00:50:16 He wants to give the nations, for the most part, to the devil, right? 0.63
00:50:21 And discipling the nations just means that he wants to have some people.
00:50:26 I mean, I even had an amillennial pastor, I heard an amillennial pastor who made something when Pastor James White became Post Mill, he was responding to that.
00:50:39 And he even said that North Korea is a discipled nation, right?
00:50:43 Because there's Christians there.
00:50:45 And so, you know, Christ returns tomorrow.
00:50:48 You know, that's that.
00:50:50 North Korea is a discipled nation. 0.72
00:50:52 Like, like Jesus had no greater hopes or plans for North Korea than for the Kim Jong-un and his people to, you know, oppress God's people until God returns.
00:51:08 North Korea is one of the disciples of Christ in the same way that Judas was, you know, like that, like we, we'd like to see the bar of discipleship just a little higher than, than that's, that's crazy.
00:51:19 that a pastor said that oh yeah because well and see that's the problem because they don't believe 0.60
00:51:24 in discipling the nations they believe in making disciples of individual people out of nations and 0.78
00:51:29 that these individual people could be you know two or three it's just such a pathetic redemption
00:51:36 it's such a weak small and and what you were saying earlier is so helpful because um that's
00:51:42 what we have to so whether the enemy is satan or whether the enemy is the flesh or whether the
00:51:45 enemy is the world, or as you and I would both affirm, it's all three. At the end of the day,
00:51:51 God is greater than all three of those enemies. And so it comes down to the purposes of God,
00:51:57 which no man can thwart. Sin can't thwart it. Satan can't thwart it. Man can't thwart it. The
00:52:01 world can't thwart it. The purposes of God cannot be hindered. They cannot be stopped. So it
00:52:06 ultimately comes down to the eternal decree of God. What does God want? What has he said? What
00:52:12 has he decreed? What is his desire? So basically it all boils down to one question. Does God want
00:52:19 the majority of people going to hell or not, right? Or does he want to save the majority of people?
00:52:24 And it's not just what God wants to people, but it's also what we know from the scripture about
00:52:29 the character and nature of God, the will of God, and what he desires in terms of his own namesake,
00:52:34 for your namesake, for his glory, for his fame. What does God want to do for man, but also what
00:52:41 does God want to say about himself by what he does for man? And I like, last thing that I want
00:52:47 to say real quick, I love that you brought up Joseph, right? The verse that you were getting
00:52:51 at is that, you know, where Joseph says, what you meant for evil, God meant for good. And it's not
00:52:56 just, you meant something, you had evil intentions for an evil action, but God salvaged it or turned
00:53:02 it for good. No, no, God intended, same word, what, you know, what you meant, what you intended for
00:53:08 evil. God, the implication, the necessary inference in that text is God ordained this. You were doing
00:53:15 it. You have human agency and responsibility for the action that you took. And yet behind your
00:53:20 action, there was the first cause of all things, the ordained will of God with an intention and
00:53:29 his intention in contrast to yours was a good and holy purpose. But then beyond that, the reason why
00:53:37 joseph is such a good thing to bring into the stories because one joseph is a type of christ
00:53:40 and two uh what is god's intention right so it's not just god meant it for good but but what was
00:53:46 this particularly specifically what was the good to save a great many people right so so so joseph
00:53:54 is such a great type of christ because what you have going on with joseph is um his own received
00:54:00 him not his household his brothers his brothers according to the flesh literal brothers they all
00:54:08 rejected him and they threw him down into a pit right just like jesus is down into the belly of
00:54:15 the earth i mean the parallels of the you know of joseph and christ are are incredible and um and
00:54:21 he's falsely accused joseph you know by potiphar's wife and thrown into prison and he's reviled and
00:54:26 he's mocked and all these things. His own brothers despise him. They receive him not. They hand him
00:54:31 over just like Judas handed Jesus over for 30 pieces of silver. His brothers, Joseph's brothers
00:54:37 hand him over for silver. And so all the different parallels, but then Joseph, all the intentions of
00:54:44 the brothers are, they, they meant evil towards their brother, Joseph. It was out of spite,
00:54:49 but God doesn't just salvage it. God behind the action of Joseph's brothers, God ordained it with
00:54:55 good and holy and righteous loving purposes. And the purposes weren't just loving for Joseph
00:55:01 to exalt and glorify Joseph, but that through Joseph who was thrown down into the pit, but that
00:55:07 would one day be exalted and raised up when he was finally exalted through Joseph's exaltation,
00:55:15 a great many people would be saved and not just his brothers, the house of Jacob, his father and
00:55:22 the people of Israel in seed form, but Egypt, the greatest superpower known in the world at that
00:55:29 time and all the nations coming to Egypt because the famine was very great throughout all the land.
00:55:35 So what happened in the story of Joseph? His own brothers received him not. They had evil
00:55:40 intentions. God was standing behind the whole thing, ordaining it all with good intentions
00:55:44 and not just personally good intentions for Joseph's sake, but that through his goodness
00:55:49 to Joseph, he might save many people from every tribe, tongue, and nation across the known world
00:55:54 at the time. And so then you get into like, okay, like, you know, how many people died of starvation?
00:56:00 I'm sure some people did. But overall, what we can tell from the narrative, from that story of
00:56:05 Joseph, is that by Joseph's wisdom and by his exaltation, the majority of the known world was
00:56:13 was saved. They made it through the famine. They, they didn't starve. They lived, they lived. And
00:56:19 if you compare that, you know, and, and look at Joseph as a type of, of Christ. And so, you know,
00:56:25 all of it being said, one more thing real quick, B.B. Warfield, right? So you sent me the article.
00:56:29 It was fantastic. And I was reading that, you know, this 10 page article by B.B. Warfield.
00:56:33 And one of the things he also said about parables, you just got to be careful. Like, what is the,
00:56:37 in what sense does Jesus, is he using the parable? What is Jesus trying to say in the
00:56:43 parable. Cause you can read out, right. Pastors get wacky and funky, you know, teaching through
00:56:47 parables sometimes. Cause it'd be like, and notice this point of the parable. And it's like, well,
00:56:52 but is that the point of the parable? Or is it, you know, like, like you can go too far
00:56:57 in, in the way that you try to push, you know, the principle or the morals of a parable. You
00:57:02 have to use the parable the way that Jesus intends it to be used. What is he communicating?
00:57:06 And so with the narrow is the gate and hard is the way that leads to life, if you ever find it,
00:57:14 and broad is the gate and easy is the way. I really think the way Jesus, that's a parable.
00:57:20 And the way that Jesus is using this descriptive parable, I think it's clear from the larger
00:57:27 context what Jesus is saying. He's speaking more to the nature of the way than the size of the
00:57:33 people or the scope of the people who traverse that particular way. I think the emphasis is not
00:57:38 on few and many. The emphasis is on easy and hard, wide versus narrow. I think what Jesus is saying
00:57:44 is there's only one way that leads to life. I don't think the major point is few are saved.
00:57:51 I think the main point is there are multiple ways that lead to destruction. Wide path that leads to
00:57:57 destruction. Pluralism leads to destruction. But there was only one way that leads to life. I am 0.96
00:58:04 the way, the truth, and the life. And it's a difficult way. It's a way that no man can traverse
00:58:08 on his own. It's by faith alone, by grace alone, through faith that you must be born again.
00:58:12 That's what Jesus is saying. And so B.B. Warfield, he takes that and just shows you the absurdity
00:58:18 by using another parable and says, what if we were to read the percentages of who's going to
00:58:24 end up in heaven and who's going to end up in hell from another parable of the 10 virgins.
00:58:28 So 10 virgins, the bridegroom is coming, right? And they all go out to meet him because he's
00:58:33 coming in the middle of the night and five of the virgins are wise and they bring extra oil 0.94
00:58:39 for their lamps and five of the virgins are foolish and they don't bring enough oil. And so 0.93
00:58:44 their oil runs out, their lamps grow dim. They go to the wise virgins and say, please give us some
00:58:48 of your oil. And the wise virgins say, no, because we may not have enough for ourselves and the
00:58:53 bridegroom could come and we'll miss him. And so the five foolish virgins, they go back into town 0.99
00:58:58 to buy more oil and the bridegroom comes and he takes the five wise virgins in with him and they 0.99
00:59:04 close the doors and the five foolish virgins are locked out and it's too late. And so B.B. Warfield 0.92
00:59:09 looks at that and he says, so here we have it. Clearly what Jesus is telling us in this parable
00:59:14 is that 50% of all of human population throughout human history will be in hell and 50% will be in
00:59:20 heaven, five and five. No, you don't read the parable that way. That's not what's being
00:59:24 communicated by the parable. And so he's just using that as an example, you know, from the,
00:59:28 from the greater to the lesser to show the absurdity. We have to read parables for the
00:59:33 purpose that the Lord intended them. So any thoughts on that? Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, I,
00:59:40 I think, I mean, I just, I think that you, you mentioned, you know, the emphasis being on the
00:59:47 difficulty of the way and not the number. And I think that's important. And I think it also leads
00:59:53 into a common objection people have with regards to all of this, because they go, well, if you're 0.91
00:59:59 saying that in the future, the nations are going to be Christian, there's going to be more Christians
01:00:03 in the world, and it's going to be a better place in a lot of ways, then where is all that suffering? 1.00
01:00:09 You know, I mean, isn't the Christian life from beginning to end, this mortal life is supposed to 0.89
01:00:16 be, you know, marked by suffering. And if things are going to get better, wouldn't that diminish 1.00
01:00:22 suffering, right? So, that's a very common objective, you know, objection, sorry, people
01:00:29 have to post-millennialism. Well, I think it's pretty, I think it falls apart very quickly
01:00:36 in the first place, because suffering for Christ actually, even now, looks a bit different
01:00:45 for someone living in southern california for example um compared to someone living in north
01:00:53 korea right going back to that example like even today um are we gonna really say that um that the
01:01:02 fact that the degree of suffering that one person is experiencing um and the the the much lesser
01:01:10 suffering that the guy in southern california's experiences means that they're not really a
01:01:15 christian because they're not really suffering for jesus because they get to go to in and out and
01:01:20 you know and and enjoy the sunshine and all these things um so uh so even today that doesn't really
01:01:29 work like there's degrees of suffering and obviously when we talk about the world becoming
01:01:34 christian we're not saying that all suffering will be ended right because even if all the
01:01:41 world is christian even if you know to the last man woman and child everybody's a christian in
01:01:45 the future uh christians sin right christians uh you know the it's it's not all easy there's
01:01:55 hardship and life you know and and those hardships are not going to be completely done away with
01:02:01 until christ returns right basically and so the the continuance of suffering and difficulties and
01:02:09 hardships, though the degrees may be less, is something that will be constant throughout.
01:02:16 Totally. Yeah. We may not be thrown to lions in a Colosseum, but we're not being thrown to lions
01:02:20 in a Colosseum right now. Right? So it's like, oh, then I guess the words of Jesus aren't true
01:02:25 because we've lived in America on the backdrop of Christendom. That's why we're not being thrown
01:02:31 to lions. And if God doesn't do something in his mercy, if we don't repent of our sins and call
01:02:38 out and cry out to Jesus and bring America back to Christ, then we maybe eventually will be thrown
01:02:47 to lions. But the point is that we're not talking about something that's never been done before.
01:02:53 I think that's important for people to understand. There have been time periods over the last 2,000
01:02:56 years, and I would argue that at least in the West, we're in one of those time periods right now
01:03:01 in Western cultures where, where Christianity was the dominant influence. And so by and large,
01:03:11 it's, it's, you know, it, there are certain benefits and provisions, practical benefits
01:03:17 and provisions for being a Christian. There's not a ton of persecution, right? So like, so,
01:03:22 so somebody who would say, well, postmill can't be true because exactly what you're saying. It
01:03:27 can't be true because then that would do away with suffering. Okay. Well, I'm sure that people
01:03:32 in the first century church who were being thrown to lions, if they, if they knew what your life was
01:03:37 going to be like in, in, in Texas, you know, going to Whataburger to change it from Southern
01:03:41 California. Cause I don't, you know, I live in Southern California and I love Southern California.
01:03:44 So I say Texas is even, even more, you know, more cozy and comfy. But, but you know, like first
01:03:50 century, if the apostle Paul was looking at my life, he'd be, you know, like he'd be tempted
01:03:53 to say, where's the suffering? But the reality is like, we suffer because of sin. We don't just
01:03:58 suffer because of the world. And we don't just suffer because of there being a majority population 1.00
01:04:03 of unbelievers persecuting Christians. No one has hurt me more over the course of my life than
01:04:10 Christians. And there is no one, to be fair, that I've hurt more than fellow Christians. I have
01:04:15 sinned against Christians more than I've sinned against pagans. And Christians have sinned against 0.96
01:04:19 me, personally, more than pagans have sinned against me. Because I've been doing my life
01:04:23 predominantly with Christians. The relationships that I've formed have been with fellow Christians
01:04:27 and in relationships with Christians, me being a Christian by the grace of God, them being a 0.99
01:04:32 by the grace of God, we're still jerks and it hurts and it's hard and it's suffering. And so 0.99
01:04:39 you're absolutely right. But we need to land the plane, but I feel like we've made, I feel
01:04:45 persuaded. My biased mind has been thoroughly persuaded in our beautiful echo chamber that
01:04:52 we've created for this recording. I hope that other people who were maybe not on board have
01:04:57 been challenged. I think that we've made a compelling case. I think that we've looked at
01:05:01 the scripture. We've looked at church history. We've looked at guys like B.B. Warfield. I love
01:05:04 that you brought Spurgeon into the mix, but are there any final words that you want to give us
01:05:10 as we go ahead and conclude the episode for today? Yeah, well, I think, yeah, we've looked
01:05:17 at a lot of these different issues. And I think it's something that a lot of Christians haven't 1.00
01:05:22 really thought about, haven't really considered. You know, that's been my experience when I talk
01:05:27 about this subject with fellow Christians, especially Christians that have a different
01:05:31 eschatological view. For the most part, it's not something they have thought about. It's not
01:05:38 something that they find to be an important topic. They say, well, that's just kind of,
01:05:44 We'll just leave that up to the Lord and not worry about that too much.
01:05:48 But I think it really is important to consider and look at the scriptures and see what is actually there and what we actually see in terms of this idea that actually the future is a lot more glorious for the church than we would think a lot of times.
01:06:11 And just, you know, just to close with that, I'd like to briefly quote George Whitefield talking about this subject, talking about the future of the church.
01:06:21 And he said, there are more excellent things ahead, glorious things that are spoken of these times when the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea.
01:06:34 And then he says, for all former glory of the Christian church shall be nothing in comparison to the glory that shall excel.
01:06:46 Then shall they cry out, with the governor of the feast, thou hast kept the good wine until now.
01:06:53 So I just wanted to leave that Whitfield quote.
01:06:56 Kept the good wine until now.
01:06:58 I love that.
01:06:59 That's good.
01:07:00 Thanks for sharing that.
01:07:01 All right.
01:07:01 Well, thanks, guys, for tuning in.
01:07:03 I hope that this has been helpful for you and seeing one of the practical benefits of
01:07:08 the post-millennial eschatology that we believe that not only is it glorious and is it exciting,
01:07:14 is it Christ's victory, but it's Christ's victory first and foremost for his glory,
01:07:19 but also for the good of mankind.
01:07:21 We want to see people saved and we want to see lots of people saved.
01:07:26 In fact, the majority of people saved.
01:07:28 So thanks for tuning in.
01:07:30 Thanks so much for listening.
01:07:31 But real quick, before you go, do us a small favor, take a moment, and leave us a five-star
01:07:37 review if you enjoyed the show.
01:07:39 This is undoubtedly the best way that you can help us get this biblically faithful content
01:07:44 to as many people as possible.
01:07:46 Thanks so much.