00:09:20.580Well, if you ask most evangelicals these days, they'll probably say, you know, hell, or they'll say, I don't know, that's, you know, that's, that's above my pay grade.
00:09:31.100You know, I don't, I don't want to, you know, think about that or get into that.
00:09:35.060But usually those that, you know, are willing to give an answer would probably say, I mean, obviously, there's going to be more people in hell, you know, I mean, we look through history and most people aren't Christians, right?0.62
00:09:50.280Most people aren't following Christ. And so if that, you know, pattern is what we are to expect, then we have no reason to believe otherwise. Right. And they would even point to certain biblical passages, you know, narrows the way, you know, they say few are they that find it.0.82
00:10:12.080And so there is this whole idea that a lot of people have that the Bible actually teaches that, you know, few people will be saved, most people will be lost, and that's kind of, you know, that's just pretty fundamental to a lot of people's thinking.
00:10:32.040And so then they hear something like post-mill, you know, like perspective that, oh, well, we believe that in the future, right, that, you know, there's going to be more people saved and that, you know, actually the nations are going to become Christian.
00:10:48.760And, you know, there's just going to be this, this just amazing extended period of blessing on the earth. And they hear that and that just breaks with a lot of that paradigm. And so a lot of times they just say, well, you know, post, therefore post-millennialism is wrong because it, it conflicts with this other paradigm I have, you know, and, and, you know, they, they'll say something like, you know,
00:11:18.760If they're, you know, a bit more sophisticated in their response, they'll say, you know, you have an over-realized eschatology or something like that.
00:11:30.660And so, yeah, that's why this question becomes, I think, pretty interesting and pretty important to consider, you know, does the Bible really teach that more people will be lost than those that will be saved, ultimately?
00:11:48.760And I, you know, as a post-millennialist, my I think the answer to that question is no, that there will be more people saved than lost, you know, when because, you know, the Westminster Confession of Faith teaches, for example, that the number of the elect is fixed.
00:12:08.420So there's there's a number, you know, we don't know, you know, we don't know the number, but there is a number and that number is fixed.
00:12:14.920And and once everybody's been born, that's going to be born. Right. There that number is not going to shift, basically. And and so it's not like, you know, it's not like we think that there's going to be future generations in eternity or or something like that. Right.
00:12:33.340So there's a cutoff point in terms of X amount of humans are going to be born throughout history, and some of those are going to be saved, some of those are going to be lost.
00:12:45.760And so that's, you know, that's basically how we begin to consider this question, ultimately.
00:12:53.900And whatever that number is, according to Revelation, that's a number that no man can count.
00:12:58.680So, okay, so playing the devil's advocate, getting into, you know, some of the scripture
00:13:02.540that would, that people would use, you know, because a lot of people that, you know, I
00:13:06.380know what you're saying and I agree with what you're saying, but people would, they'd say,
00:13:09.300no, it's not my paradigm, my paradigm, Nathan.
00:18:00.240I mean, most of the Jews rejected Jesus in that generation.
00:18:04.960There were some, you know, like Paul says, you know, in Romans 11, it's not, you know, that, you know, he says, I'm a Jew.
00:18:12.700And he talks about the fact that there is a remnant, right?
00:18:16.280And it's actually very interesting that the only context, the New Testament, as far as I can tell, uses the term remnant applied in the New Testament.
00:18:28.380It's not talking about the church in general, right?
00:18:31.240And so, he doesn't use that language of the church necessarily.
00:18:36.460He uses it of a group within the church, which is these Jewish believers.
00:18:41.280Most of the Jews rejected Jesus, but this remnant, including Paul, didn't reject the Messiah, ultimately.
00:18:50.640And so, I think that is what is being spoken of.0.63
00:18:54.460Now, someone could say, okay, well, that's convenient, you know.
00:18:58.560So, it's just talking about the first century or whatever.
00:19:04.080But I think when we actually look at some of the other places where Jesus uses this language, it can be very helpful.
00:19:12.400When we cross-reference, you know, Matthew 7, for example, with Luke chapter 13, right, where it talks about, you know, the narrow door.
00:19:22.200And, you know, in Luke 13, 23, someone asked Jesus, Lord, will those who are saved be few, right?
00:19:30.700And he uses almost, you know, very similar language, strive to enter the narrow door, you know, for many, I tell you, we'll see.
00:19:36.300But it's interesting when you come on down to verse 26, he's talking about, you know, the people that are knocking on the door, trying to get let in.
00:30:16.740He's speaking to that people in that generation, in that place.
00:30:21.900And the main point that he has in Matthew 7, 13 and 14 is not about few versus many,
00:30:28.640but it seems like the main point that he's making is about the difficulty of the way
00:30:33.820that leads to eternal life. He's saying it's narrow, it's difficult. Few ever find it. I
00:30:40.120don't think that the emphasis is in numbers. I think the emphasis, if anything, is in difficulty.
00:30:46.480There's one way that is broad and easy, but there's this other way that is narrow and hard,
00:30:52.440difficult. Any further thoughts on that? Yeah, yeah. And well, just to connect with what you
00:30:58.840were saying about you know the the the parable of the mustard seed and how that connects to
00:31:03.880to all this um because um what we learn from that is that the kingdom of god grows slowly
00:31:14.260right like a mustard seed and it grows progressively in history right because obviously
00:31:20.420you know if you planted a must a seed tomorrow and you took a lawn chair you know and sat outside
00:31:27.320to watch it grow, you know, that's going to be a pretty boring afternoon. You know, you're not
00:31:33.040going to see much. And that's the way the kingdom of God grows. It grows slowly, sometimes even
00:31:38.220imperceptibly, right, in that sense. And so, what we are seeing throughout history is this
00:31:47.020progressive advance of the kingdom. Now, obviously, and this is an important point, if Christ returned
00:31:54.300tomorrow, right? If Christ returned tomorrow, we would have to conclude that most people
00:32:01.740in history are going to end up in hell, right? Because when we look back from this point at
00:32:08.460human history throughout all generations, as far as we can tell, you know, most people have not
00:32:17.320followed Yahweh. Most people have not been Christians. Most people have not followed Christ.0.94
00:32:22.780And so, from that perspective, you know, if Christ returned tomorrow, then yeah, most people would be lost.
00:32:32.540But if we understand that this is something that's happening progressively in history, and we understand that if more are going to be saved than lost, then most of the elect are still not yet born.
00:32:46.980Right. And that's an important point that there's still greater things in the future of the church than have been in the present and have occurred in the past.
00:32:57.860Then we understand that the scope of the work that Christ is accomplishing, his work of redemption, is a lot more massive than most people consider.
00:33:10.980consider, right? Because most people consider and think, well, we're probably living in the last
00:33:16.940days. We're probably, Christ is probably about to return at any moment. When actually, it's a lot
00:33:24.940more probable we're living in the early church, right? And that actually there's more and greater
00:33:33.140things ahead of us than behind us at this point, which is strange for a lot of people to consider
00:33:39.800Because, again, it goes against just certain paradigms that many have, you know, embraced along those lines.
00:33:48.560Yeah, no, that's an important point, because I think some people think that post-millennials are lowering the bar for salvation, right?
00:33:56.320That, like, basically, like, post-millennials, like, if you think more people are going to be saved than lost, then you must be counting all the members at Joel Osteen's church.
00:34:03.540And so I'll just take a moment and pause here and just remind the listener that, you know,
00:34:08.960I'm post-millennial, but I'm also a Calvinist through and through.
00:34:13.580Like I'm the type of guy who enjoys hearing a sermon from Doug Wilson and also really
00:34:18.880enjoys hearing a sermon from Paul Washer.
00:34:22.340You know, so like we're not lowering the bar and saying, you know, that we think a lot
00:34:26.740of people are going to be in heaven because it doesn't really take that much to be saved0.72
00:34:30.460and you can have this mediocre Christian light, fake salvation, and you can accept a prosperity
00:34:38.960gospel and that'll be sufficient. And no, we're saying the reason why we think more people will0.73
00:34:43.360be saved is not because more people have been saved thus far, but because we just don't think
00:34:48.880that we're at the end yet. And we don't think we could be wrong, but we don't think that Jesus is
00:34:53.360coming back in the next 15 minutes. So the post-millennial baked into the pie in that
00:34:59.980eschatology is like, we, we really do pretty much every post-millennial that I've talked to
00:35:04.380believes that, that we're looking at not just a few more decades or even a few more centuries,
00:35:10.360but, but very likely a few more millennia before the return of Christ, that thousands of more
00:35:16.100years. And another thing to consider, and this is just a practical element, but another thing
00:35:20.580to consider is it's like, okay, but you know, like if, if you're you know, a six day literal
00:35:25.980creationist, you know, young earth, which, which I am, you know, if, if you hold to that kind of
00:35:31.500creation theology and you're saying, all right, I'm going to date the world at like maybe six,
00:35:36.140maybe 8,000 years, somewhere in that range, you know, and like, even if Jesus tarries for like
00:35:42.180another six, 8,000 years, you're talking about like, he would have to save pretty much, you know,
00:35:47.540everybody on the planet for the next 6,000 years steady, saving everyone in order for your numbers
00:35:53.520to add up. And I would just point out one other, you know, major factor, which is the population
00:35:59.980of the planet today is massively larger than the population of the planet for virtually every
00:36:10.600single century up until just like 50, 60 years ago. Like you look at a graph of just the human
00:36:16.900population, the way that it's exponentially grown. And there are some problems right now,
00:36:21.780especially in Western nations in terms of depopulation, as people become disenchanted
00:36:27.140with family and children and those kinds of things, as we've turned our back on the cultural
00:36:31.740mandate to be fruitful and multiply, you know, like even Elon Musk, you know, who's, as far as0.87
00:36:36.280I can tell, a pagan, you know, he's not a Christian, but even he has enough in God's
00:36:40.560common grace, enough sense and logic to recognize, man, we don't have overpopulation threats or
00:36:47.580potential problems. We have depopulation, underpopulate. We need more people. And so
00:36:52.780my point is just to say that if you're looking at like the last six to 8,000 years, you know,
00:36:58.720we may have 8.2 billion people, give or take, on the planet today. But the average, if we took an
00:37:04.540average number of people on the planet over the last six, 8,000 years, there weren't that many
00:37:11.260people. There just weren't that many people. So even if 99% of them went to hell, there weren't
00:37:16.120that many people. And if we're saying there's going to be another six to 8,000 years and possibly
00:37:20.42030,000, you know, but like another, you know, six to 8,000 years, uh, but the average, uh,
00:37:25.460population, total world population for this second half of human history, um, is, is, you know,
00:37:32.54020 billion people, 50 billion people, a hundred billion people, maybe a trillion people, you know,
00:37:37.580like we don't, we don't know. I mean, a whole world population right now could fit in Texas
00:37:41.860comfortably, you know? So like everybody who's, you know, these myths of overpopulation,
00:37:46.180all that, even that is just, it's a basic misunderstanding of what people are, right?
00:37:51.340You have bad anthropology because you have bad theology. You don't know who God is. So you don't
00:37:55.000know who man is. So you think like, we don't need more people because you have labeled people as
00:37:59.180predominantly consumers, right? Who knows out of, out of the 60 million plus children who have been
00:38:05.980murdered in their mother's womb, just since Roe, you know, in, in just in my nation, in the United
00:38:10.960States of America, well, hey, that's 60 million less mouths to feed, is it? Or out of those 60
00:38:16.240million kids, who would have grown up and figured out new technology for agriculture and producing
00:38:21.000more crops? And who would have done this? And who would have potentially cured cancer? And who,
00:38:24.900like, are people consumers first and foremost, or are they made in the image of God and capable
00:38:30.740of incredible things? And so who knows what God might do just in his common grace, much less
00:38:36.360special grace and gospel advancement to be able to stabilize, not only that we could survive,
00:38:42.280but actually thrive with a higher quality of living, but supporting a hundred times the
00:38:47.700current human population on this planet. And that's not even to speak of possibilities of
00:38:52.840going to the moon and setting up a base there or Mars or whatever else. And if there's 6,000 more
00:38:57.700years and you've got on average, like a hundred or a thousand times, just the total population
00:39:03.120of humanity than you had for the first 6,000 to 8,000 years. But the Great Commission is
00:39:08.620successful. The leaven is working through the whole batch of dough. And it's not just that
00:39:12.480the leaven is spreading, but the batch of dough itself is exponentially growing. It's a bigger
00:39:17.940pile of dough. Then, yeah, just practically speaking, aside from looking at some of the
00:39:24.280scriptures, just logically speaking for a moment, the numbers easily add up. You could easily have
00:39:30.520Not just, not just in the same way that, you know, most guys would say, it's not just 51%
00:39:35.820going to hell and 49% going, they would say, no, the vast majority in hell.
00:39:40.080Well, well, you could, as a post-millennial say, no, not just 51% heaven and 49% hell,
00:39:46.340but the vast majority going to heaven, that heaven could really be a number that no man,
00:39:52.960really be an amount of people that no man could number.
00:39:56.020That makes hell look like just a tiny little group of people in terms of comparison.
00:40:04.000There will be millions of people in hell.
00:40:05.840From what we can tell in human history and what we know about church history, there are millions of people in hell right now.
00:40:11.520Possibly a few billion people in hell right now.
00:40:15.420But there could be trillions in heaven.
00:40:20.060And I think it's important also to point out that it, you know, this idea also just goes naturally with the flow of Scripture and the language of the New Testament.
00:40:34.620And, I mean, think about, you know, a lot of people have pointed this out, Warfield and others, this idea that Jesus is called multiple times the Savior of the world, you know, especially in the writings of John.
00:40:48.560and think about how odd that would you know that would be as a title if in fact 99 of the world is
00:40:56.520lost you know and um you know and and yeah people you know calvinists armenians kind of you know
00:41:04.600fight about those texts you know for god so loved the world you know what does that mean and you
00:41:10.260know calvinists say yeah it's the world is the elect and armenians say no you know it's a potential
00:41:15.240salvation you know for everybody but right but ultimately they both most of them agree that
00:41:20.580you know whatever you know that's supposed to mean it you know few are going to be saved right
00:41:26.780right the armenian is going to say that it's each and every individual potential but only a few take
00:41:31.420them up and then the calvinist is going to say it's not universalism like like potential for
00:41:35.400each and every individual but world meaning globally like that god didn't just so love
00:41:39.680israel but he loved brazil and china and everybody else and he but same but when you get down to
00:41:44.200brass tacks who's taking you know who is god either electing or on the minian side of the
00:41:48.600aisle who's actually taking god up on this offer of salvation both the calvinist and arminian agree
00:41:52.900um very few right and it's and yeah and obviously god loved europe more than he loved you know most
00:42:00.200of the other continents and most of the other nations because you know most of the people in
00:42:04.640heaven are going to be european uh you know it would seem according to those demographics if
00:42:10.860If Jesus came back, if he came back right now.
00:42:12.820If Jesus came back, you know, tomorrow, that would have to be.0.98
00:42:16.680Well, really, if he came back about 100 years before today, then for sure it'd be primarily white.0.98
00:42:24.180But, and it's, that's another interesting point that, you know, a lot of people say, you know, how can you think, you know, the gospel's advancing and Christianity's advancing, you know, look at Europe, you know, it's horrible how, you know, the Christianity has declined in Europe, you know.
00:42:40.220the 16th century 17th century was kind of the uh you know the the golden age or something like
00:42:47.220that but in reality you go back to that time and you ask well how many christians were there in
00:42:52.000africa or how many christians were there in china you know yeah there was there was a great number
00:42:56.940of christians in europe but the rest of the world i mean there's more christians alive today than
00:43:01.940any other point in human history you know right and so um like combined almost yeah yeah i mean
00:43:09.400it's amazing the number of people who are Christians today all over the world in that
00:43:16.240sense. And so, I think it's very important to take that into account and to consider that the
00:43:23.520future, all this language that the Bible uses, you know, of Jesus being the Savior of the world
00:43:30.740is not accidental. It's, you know, in that sense, it's intentional because Christ really will
00:43:38.980redeem most of the world when all is said and done you know he really will be the savior of the world
00:43:46.140not the savior of every last man woman and child obviously you know we do believe people are in
00:43:50.920hell but in general the majority if we believe the majority of the world is going to be saved
00:43:56.460then savior of the world is a totally appropriate title that's right for for christ and so yeah i
00:44:03.340think it's it's important to to point that out i think it's also important to and you know i'm
00:44:09.220gonna let um i'm gonna let charles spurgeon make this point you know so people don't get mad at me
00:44:14.480um but um you know even armenians like charles spurgeon so yeah i mean you most people like
00:44:21.200charles spurgeon so i'll let him say it um he he said this he said how often do i hear people say
00:44:27.860ah, straight is the gate and narrow is the way and few there be that find it. There will be very
00:44:34.260few in heaven and most will be lost. My friend, I differ with you. Do you think that Christ will
00:44:42.000let the devil beat him? That he will let the devil have more in hell than there are in heaven? No,
00:44:49.220it is impossible for then Satan would laugh at Christ. There will be more in heaven than there
00:44:56.660are among the lost goss says that there will be a number that no man can count who will be saved
00:45:02.940but he never says there will be a number that no man can number that will be lost there will be a
00:45:09.760host beyond all count who will be who will get into heaven you know that's what charles spurgeon
00:45:15.880said and so he just that postman spurgeon huh yeah i mean he's um uh it's interesting though
00:45:21.320because he's kind of, you know, mixed on his eschatology, you know, probably more of a
00:45:26.500premillennialist, but he had that Puritan, you know, influence, that Puritan hope there as well.
00:45:32.800And so it's very interesting what he's saying, because he's saying, look, I mean, if Christ
00:45:39.620was the victor, if Christ defeated Satan, it's kind of strange for after defeating Satan, then
00:45:47.120Satan just, you know, ends up taking nine-tenths of the human race to hell with him, you know,
00:45:56.860for the next few thousand years, right? That's kind of a strange outcome. And, you know, people,
00:46:06.880Christians, evangelicals have come up with all kinds of creative ways of justifying that and
00:46:12.040saying that if you even bring up the numbers thing, you're just not spiritual. You're just
00:46:18.380not thinking of the gospel in a Christ-centric kind of a way. You're thinking in a worldly way
00:46:28.920or something like that. So apparently Spurgeon was very worldly when he pointed the obvious out
00:46:35.200that, you know, well, if, you know, if Christ defeated Satan and, but then somehow Satan is
00:46:40.840able to drag, you know, most of people in the rest of history with him to hell, that's kind of
00:46:48.100a strange scenario in that sense. And counterintuitive to what, you know, we see in terms
00:46:56.620of the history of redemption. And so, so I think it's a great point that he brings up. I think it's
00:47:04.140an important point um and again it's a it's a point that i see you know uh amillennialists and
00:47:13.020and you know well definitely pre-millennialists but amillennialists especially struggle with
00:47:17.100because they have you know on the one hand they're saying well satan's bound right he can't
00:47:24.520deceive the nations anymore but on the other hand somehow bound he's able to you know remain in
00:47:31.760control of most of the nations right he's able to keep everybody for the most part under his thumb
00:47:39.180except for you know a few exceptions and you know and to iron man the the you know the all millennial
00:47:45.100as best we can and not just you know you know i'm not saying that you're doing this but to
00:47:49.100if anybody you know would accuse us of using a straw man to iron man them as best we can you
00:47:53.860know they would say well no it's not so much that you know satan you know yes we believe he was bound
00:47:58.000you know, Jesus bound the strong man, and now we're plundering the house, you know, one gospel
00:48:02.120proclamation at a time, the Great Commission going forward, plundering the house. But it proves to be
00:48:07.220unsuccessful, not because the strong man, Satan, that has been bound by Christ is still operating
00:48:14.720with such vigor and such power, but because of simply just the power of the flesh, right? That
00:48:19.020there are three great enemies that we face. The devil is one of them, but there's also the world,
00:48:23.940there's also the flesh. And, uh, because of just the doctrine of total depravity runs so deep,
00:48:29.300uh, the curse of sin runs so deep. It's not so much that the devil is still deceiving the nations.
00:48:34.760He's no longer deceiving the nations, but the nations are deceiving themselves to which,0.61
00:48:38.740so that I would say that that's a fair representation of the all millennial. That's0.96
00:48:42.900more of an iron man representation of their view, but still the counter would still be the same.
00:48:47.440Okay, so then, you know, so Christ beats the devil, but Christ can't beat sin, right?0.94
00:48:55.740Because it's still Christ being a loser.
00:48:59.440Christ ultimately, whether his opponent is Satan directly beating Christ, or whether0.69
00:49:04.520the opponent is simply the curse, the curse of sin beating Christ, right?
00:49:09.140But everybody becomes a postman around Christmas time, right?
00:49:11.560You know, we all, we sing those, those, you know, as far as the curse is found, far as
00:49:17.160the, you know, like how far does the redemption go?
00:49:40.040We believe in the sovereignty of God. We, you know, we believe in a God who even worked through, you know, Joseph's brothers doing, you know, that the flesh did not defeat God's purposes in that case or in any other case in history.
00:49:57.720And so, you know, whether it's the devil's plans, whether it's the flesh, if God has a purpose, he's sovereign, he's going to accomplish it in history.
00:50:07.280And so, really, the only recourse that someone would have is to say, well, God, you know, Jesus just doesn't really want the nations in this age.
00:50:16.820He wants to give the nations, for the most part, to the devil, right?0.63
00:50:21.480And discipling the nations just means that he wants to have some people.
00:50:26.100I mean, I even had an amillennial pastor, I heard an amillennial pastor who made something when Pastor James White became Post Mill, he was responding to that.
00:50:39.220And he even said that North Korea is a discipled nation, right?
00:50:50.520North Korea is a discipled nation.0.72
00:50:52.080Like, like Jesus had no greater hopes or plans for North Korea than for the Kim Jong-un and his people to, you know, oppress God's people until God returns.
00:51:08.440North Korea is one of the disciples of Christ in the same way that Judas was, you know, like that, like we, we'd like to see the bar of discipleship just a little higher than, than that's, that's crazy.
00:51:19.920that a pastor said that oh yeah because well and see that's the problem because they don't believe0.60
00:51:24.320in discipling the nations they believe in making disciples of individual people out of nations and0.78
00:51:29.540that these individual people could be you know two or three it's just such a pathetic redemption
00:51:36.300it's such a weak small and and what you were saying earlier is so helpful because um that's
00:51:42.180what we have to so whether the enemy is satan or whether the enemy is the flesh or whether the
00:51:45.480enemy is the world, or as you and I would both affirm, it's all three. At the end of the day,
00:51:51.400God is greater than all three of those enemies. And so it comes down to the purposes of God,
00:51:57.540which no man can thwart. Sin can't thwart it. Satan can't thwart it. Man can't thwart it. The
00:52:01.360world can't thwart it. The purposes of God cannot be hindered. They cannot be stopped. So it
00:52:06.440ultimately comes down to the eternal decree of God. What does God want? What has he said? What
00:52:12.400has he decreed? What is his desire? So basically it all boils down to one question. Does God want
00:52:19.460the majority of people going to hell or not, right? Or does he want to save the majority of people?
00:52:24.520And it's not just what God wants to people, but it's also what we know from the scripture about
00:52:29.020the character and nature of God, the will of God, and what he desires in terms of his own namesake,
00:52:34.420for your namesake, for his glory, for his fame. What does God want to do for man, but also what
00:52:41.040does God want to say about himself by what he does for man? And I like, last thing that I want
00:52:47.000to say real quick, I love that you brought up Joseph, right? The verse that you were getting
00:52:51.480at is that, you know, where Joseph says, what you meant for evil, God meant for good. And it's not
00:52:56.420just, you meant something, you had evil intentions for an evil action, but God salvaged it or turned
00:53:02.840it for good. No, no, God intended, same word, what, you know, what you meant, what you intended for
00:53:08.860evil. God, the implication, the necessary inference in that text is God ordained this. You were doing
00:53:15.140it. You have human agency and responsibility for the action that you took. And yet behind your
00:53:20.280action, there was the first cause of all things, the ordained will of God with an intention and
00:53:29.540his intention in contrast to yours was a good and holy purpose. But then beyond that, the reason why
00:53:37.200joseph is such a good thing to bring into the stories because one joseph is a type of christ
00:53:40.820and two uh what is god's intention right so it's not just god meant it for good but but what was
00:53:46.800this particularly specifically what was the good to save a great many people right so so so joseph
00:53:54.820is such a great type of christ because what you have going on with joseph is um his own received
00:54:00.340him not his household his brothers his brothers according to the flesh literal brothers they all
00:54:08.080rejected him and they threw him down into a pit right just like jesus is down into the belly of
00:54:15.240the earth i mean the parallels of the you know of joseph and christ are are incredible and um and
00:54:21.720he's falsely accused joseph you know by potiphar's wife and thrown into prison and he's reviled and
00:54:26.780he's mocked and all these things. His own brothers despise him. They receive him not. They hand him
00:54:31.740over just like Judas handed Jesus over for 30 pieces of silver. His brothers, Joseph's brothers
00:54:37.160hand him over for silver. And so all the different parallels, but then Joseph, all the intentions of
00:54:44.660the brothers are, they, they meant evil towards their brother, Joseph. It was out of spite,
00:54:49.500but God doesn't just salvage it. God behind the action of Joseph's brothers, God ordained it with
00:54:55.700good and holy and righteous loving purposes. And the purposes weren't just loving for Joseph
00:55:01.140to exalt and glorify Joseph, but that through Joseph who was thrown down into the pit, but that
00:55:07.980would one day be exalted and raised up when he was finally exalted through Joseph's exaltation,
00:55:15.800a great many people would be saved and not just his brothers, the house of Jacob, his father and
00:55:22.820the people of Israel in seed form, but Egypt, the greatest superpower known in the world at that
00:55:29.860time and all the nations coming to Egypt because the famine was very great throughout all the land.
00:55:35.860So what happened in the story of Joseph? His own brothers received him not. They had evil
00:55:40.660intentions. God was standing behind the whole thing, ordaining it all with good intentions
00:55:44.660and not just personally good intentions for Joseph's sake, but that through his goodness
00:55:49.480to Joseph, he might save many people from every tribe, tongue, and nation across the known world
00:55:54.460at the time. And so then you get into like, okay, like, you know, how many people died of starvation?
00:56:00.480I'm sure some people did. But overall, what we can tell from the narrative, from that story of
00:56:05.700Joseph, is that by Joseph's wisdom and by his exaltation, the majority of the known world was
00:56:13.200was saved. They made it through the famine. They, they didn't starve. They lived, they lived. And
00:56:19.100if you compare that, you know, and, and look at Joseph as a type of, of Christ. And so, you know,
00:56:25.100all of it being said, one more thing real quick, B.B. Warfield, right? So you sent me the article.
00:56:29.320It was fantastic. And I was reading that, you know, this 10 page article by B.B. Warfield.
00:56:33.140And one of the things he also said about parables, you just got to be careful. Like, what is the,
00:56:37.620in what sense does Jesus, is he using the parable? What is Jesus trying to say in the
00:56:43.020parable. Cause you can read out, right. Pastors get wacky and funky, you know, teaching through
00:56:47.480parables sometimes. Cause it'd be like, and notice this point of the parable. And it's like, well,
00:56:52.560but is that the point of the parable? Or is it, you know, like, like you can go too far
00:56:57.020in, in the way that you try to push, you know, the principle or the morals of a parable. You
00:57:02.520have to use the parable the way that Jesus intends it to be used. What is he communicating?
00:57:06.340And so with the narrow is the gate and hard is the way that leads to life, if you ever find it,
00:57:14.200and broad is the gate and easy is the way. I really think the way Jesus, that's a parable.
00:57:20.920And the way that Jesus is using this descriptive parable, I think it's clear from the larger
00:57:27.060context what Jesus is saying. He's speaking more to the nature of the way than the size of the
00:57:33.460people or the scope of the people who traverse that particular way. I think the emphasis is not
00:57:38.000on few and many. The emphasis is on easy and hard, wide versus narrow. I think what Jesus is saying
00:57:44.460is there's only one way that leads to life. I don't think the major point is few are saved.
00:57:51.600I think the main point is there are multiple ways that lead to destruction. Wide path that leads to
00:57:57.480destruction. Pluralism leads to destruction. But there was only one way that leads to life. I am
00:58:04.000the way, the truth, and the life. And it's a difficult way. It's a way that no man can traverse
00:58:08.080on his own. It's by faith alone, by grace alone, through faith that you must be born again.
00:58:12.080That's what Jesus is saying. And so B.B. Warfield, he takes that and just shows you the absurdity
00:58:18.240by using another parable and says, what if we were to read the percentages of who's going to
00:58:24.540end up in heaven and who's going to end up in hell from another parable of the 10 virgins.
00:58:28.700So 10 virgins, the bridegroom is coming, right? And they all go out to meet him because he's
00:58:33.780coming in the middle of the night and five of the virgins are wise and they bring extra oil0.94
00:58:39.280for their lamps and five of the virgins are foolish and they don't bring enough oil. And so0.93
00:58:44.100their oil runs out, their lamps grow dim. They go to the wise virgins and say, please give us some
00:58:48.720of your oil. And the wise virgins say, no, because we may not have enough for ourselves and the
00:58:53.560bridegroom could come and we'll miss him. And so the five foolish virgins, they go back into town0.99
00:58:58.900to buy more oil and the bridegroom comes and he takes the five wise virgins in with him and they0.99
00:59:04.520close the doors and the five foolish virgins are locked out and it's too late. And so B.B. Warfield0.92
00:59:09.020looks at that and he says, so here we have it. Clearly what Jesus is telling us in this parable
00:59:14.560is that 50% of all of human population throughout human history will be in hell and 50% will be in
00:59:20.600heaven, five and five. No, you don't read the parable that way. That's not what's being
00:59:24.820communicated by the parable. And so he's just using that as an example, you know, from the,
00:59:28.760from the greater to the lesser to show the absurdity. We have to read parables for the
00:59:33.900purpose that the Lord intended them. So any thoughts on that? Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, I,
00:59:40.440I think, I mean, I just, I think that you, you mentioned, you know, the emphasis being on the
00:59:47.080difficulty of the way and not the number. And I think that's important. And I think it also leads
00:59:53.140into a common objection people have with regards to all of this, because they go, well, if you're0.91
00:59:59.820saying that in the future, the nations are going to be Christian, there's going to be more Christians
01:00:03.840in the world, and it's going to be a better place in a lot of ways, then where is all that suffering?1.00
01:00:09.840You know, I mean, isn't the Christian life from beginning to end, this mortal life is supposed to0.89
01:00:16.500be, you know, marked by suffering. And if things are going to get better, wouldn't that diminish1.00
01:00:22.680suffering, right? So, that's a very common objective, you know, objection, sorry, people
01:00:29.340have to post-millennialism. Well, I think it's pretty, I think it falls apart very quickly
01:00:36.360in the first place, because suffering for Christ actually, even now, looks a bit different
01:00:45.600for someone living in southern california for example um compared to someone living in north
01:00:53.720korea right going back to that example like even today um are we gonna really say that um that the
01:01:02.640fact that the degree of suffering that one person is experiencing um and the the the much lesser
01:01:10.580suffering that the guy in southern california's experiences means that they're not really a
01:01:15.200christian because they're not really suffering for jesus because they get to go to in and out and
01:01:20.040you know and and enjoy the sunshine and all these things um so uh so even today that doesn't really
01:01:29.180work like there's degrees of suffering and obviously when we talk about the world becoming
01:01:34.580christian we're not saying that all suffering will be ended right because even if all the
01:01:41.000world is christian even if you know to the last man woman and child everybody's a christian in
01:01:45.860the future uh christians sin right christians uh you know the it's it's not all easy there's
01:01:55.000hardship and life you know and and those hardships are not going to be completely done away with
01:02:01.300until christ returns right basically and so the the continuance of suffering and difficulties and
01:02:09.420hardships, though the degrees may be less, is something that will be constant throughout.
01:02:16.260Totally. Yeah. We may not be thrown to lions in a Colosseum, but we're not being thrown to lions
01:02:20.220in a Colosseum right now. Right? So it's like, oh, then I guess the words of Jesus aren't true
01:02:25.140because we've lived in America on the backdrop of Christendom. That's why we're not being thrown
01:02:31.380to lions. And if God doesn't do something in his mercy, if we don't repent of our sins and call
01:02:38.600out and cry out to Jesus and bring America back to Christ, then we maybe eventually will be thrown
01:02:47.600to lions. But the point is that we're not talking about something that's never been done before.
01:02:53.040I think that's important for people to understand. There have been time periods over the last 2,000
01:02:56.840years, and I would argue that at least in the West, we're in one of those time periods right now
01:03:01.840in Western cultures where, where Christianity was the dominant influence. And so by and large,
01:03:11.260it's, it's, you know, it, there are certain benefits and provisions, practical benefits
01:03:17.100and provisions for being a Christian. There's not a ton of persecution, right? So like, so,
01:03:22.800so somebody who would say, well, postmill can't be true because exactly what you're saying. It
01:03:27.200can't be true because then that would do away with suffering. Okay. Well, I'm sure that people
01:03:32.420in the first century church who were being thrown to lions, if they, if they knew what your life was
01:03:37.040going to be like in, in, in Texas, you know, going to Whataburger to change it from Southern
01:03:41.400California. Cause I don't, you know, I live in Southern California and I love Southern California.
01:03:44.660So I say Texas is even, even more, you know, more cozy and comfy. But, but you know, like first
01:03:50.540century, if the apostle Paul was looking at my life, he'd be, you know, like he'd be tempted
01:03:53.900to say, where's the suffering? But the reality is like, we suffer because of sin. We don't just
01:03:58.340suffer because of the world. And we don't just suffer because of there being a majority population1.00
01:04:03.960of unbelievers persecuting Christians. No one has hurt me more over the course of my life than
01:04:10.060Christians. And there is no one, to be fair, that I've hurt more than fellow Christians. I have
01:04:15.060sinned against Christians more than I've sinned against pagans. And Christians have sinned against0.96
01:04:19.040me, personally, more than pagans have sinned against me. Because I've been doing my life
01:04:23.160predominantly with Christians. The relationships that I've formed have been with fellow Christians
01:04:27.820and in relationships with Christians, me being a Christian by the grace of God, them being a0.99
01:04:32.340by the grace of God, we're still jerks and it hurts and it's hard and it's suffering. And so0.99
01:04:39.220you're absolutely right. But we need to land the plane, but I feel like we've made, I feel
01:04:45.040persuaded. My biased mind has been thoroughly persuaded in our beautiful echo chamber that
01:04:52.280we've created for this recording. I hope that other people who were maybe not on board have
01:04:57.960been challenged. I think that we've made a compelling case. I think that we've looked at
01:05:01.040the scripture. We've looked at church history. We've looked at guys like B.B. Warfield. I love
01:05:04.820that you brought Spurgeon into the mix, but are there any final words that you want to give us
01:05:10.040as we go ahead and conclude the episode for today? Yeah, well, I think, yeah, we've looked
01:05:17.080at a lot of these different issues. And I think it's something that a lot of Christians haven't1.00
01:05:22.780really thought about, haven't really considered. You know, that's been my experience when I talk
01:05:27.120about this subject with fellow Christians, especially Christians that have a different
01:05:31.520eschatological view. For the most part, it's not something they have thought about. It's not
01:05:38.540something that they find to be an important topic. They say, well, that's just kind of,
01:05:44.120We'll just leave that up to the Lord and not worry about that too much.
01:05:48.720But I think it really is important to consider and look at the scriptures and see what is actually there and what we actually see in terms of this idea that actually the future is a lot more glorious for the church than we would think a lot of times.
01:06:11.580And just, you know, just to close with that, I'd like to briefly quote George Whitefield talking about this subject, talking about the future of the church.
01:06:21.680And he said, there are more excellent things ahead, glorious things that are spoken of these times when the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea.
01:06:34.860And then he says, for all former glory of the Christian church shall be nothing in comparison to the glory that shall excel.
01:06:46.320Then shall they cry out, with the governor of the feast, thou hast kept the good wine until now.
01:06:53.360So I just wanted to leave that Whitfield quote.