The NXR Podcast - THEOLOGY APPLIED - Postmillennialism ｜ Will Few Be Saved？

00:00:00.000 Hey guys, real quick, before we get started, I have a small request.

00:00:03.420 If you've been blessed by our content and you like this show,

00:00:06.420 would you take just a brief moment and leave us a five-star review?

00:00:09.760 This is quite possibly the most effective thing that you can do

00:00:12.860 to ensure that this content gets out to as many people as possible. Thanks.

00:00:17.980 All right, welcome to another episode of Theology Applied. I am your host,

00:00:21.320 Pastor Joel Webbin with Right Response Ministries. And in this episode,

00:00:24.660 I was very privileged to have my friend Nathan Anderson. Nathan Anderson is a

00:00:29.740 a guy who does film. He's made films primarily dealing with post-millennial eschatology. He

00:00:35.100 has a film called On Earth As It Is In Heaven, and he has a docu-series right now on the lore

00:00:40.000 platform called Teach All Nations. We talk at the beginning of the episode a little bit about his

00:00:46.460 career in film and about post-millennialism in general. But if you want to skip to the meat of

00:00:51.220 this episode, go ahead and just skip to about 10 or 12 minutes in where we focus our attention,

00:00:56.940 not just on post-millennial eschatology in general, but one specific question.

00:01:01.560 Will there be more people in heaven at the end of the age, or will there be more people

00:01:06.680 in hell?

00:01:07.780 And we argue for the former, that there will actually be more people in heaven, that Christ

00:01:13.440 is going to save more people than those who are lost.

00:01:18.180 If you had pressed on me even just a few years ago, not only would I have said that more

00:01:22.560 people will be in hell than heaven, I would have said most people will be in hell.

00:01:26.700 I would have said that at the end of the age, when Christ returns, that the vast majority of

00:01:31.040 heaven will, or the vast majority of humanity will be in hell, that hell will be 10 times the

00:01:37.360 population of heaven, a hundred times the population of heaven. And I do not believe

00:01:41.900 that any longer. And I'm going to use with Nathan Anderson, the scripture, not just wishful

00:01:47.800 thinking, not just a biased hashtag that post meal position, but actually the Bible, the Bible

00:01:55.640 to convince you, the listener, that heaven is going to be more populated than hell, that Christ

00:02:03.360 is going to be victorious even in the number of people that he saves. Tune in now. Wait, wait,

00:02:09.900 wait, wait, wait. Hold it. Big announcement, a scary announcement, a threat, but also a promise.

00:02:16.140 The price of our conference, the post-millennial and theonomy conference, it's going up.

00:02:20.980 it's going up right after Reformation Day. We are going to hold the price at $100,

00:02:26.360 which is super cheap for a three-day conference with Dr. James White, Dr. Joseph Boot, Dr. Gary

00:02:31.340 DeMar, and the guy who's not a doctor, so we'll say Pastor Joel Webin. We've got a great conference

00:02:36.580 May 5th, 6th, and 7th in Georgetown, Texas, just north of Austin for $100. Super cheap,

00:02:43.800 but we can't hold that price forever. So if you want to get into that price, you got to get in

00:02:48.380 And now, right after Reformation Day, not Halloween, Reformation Day, October 31st,

00:02:53.680 that's the last day that you can get in this conference, register at the price of $100.

00:02:58.720 After that, starting November 1st, it's going to be $130.

00:03:02.600 So go to rightresponseconference.com, rightresponseconference.com, and register today.

00:03:09.360 Thanks.

00:03:09.660 Applying God's Word to every aspect of life.

00:03:13.540 This is Theology Applied.

00:03:18.380 All right, so welcome to another episode of Theology Applied.

00:03:23.520 I am your host, Pastor Joel Webbin with Right Response Ministries, and I have Nathan Anderson.

00:03:28.080 Most notably, at least for myself personally, you are the director and probably a bunch of other

00:03:34.260 director, producer, star, you know, the whole nine yards for On Earth As It Is in Heaven,

00:03:39.900 which was a post-mill documentary, made a great case for post-millennial eschatology with Doug

00:03:45.300 Wilson, Kenneth Gentry, and a couple other guys that were main guys that you were interviewing

00:03:51.080 in that. And you've also recently done a docu-series, multiple episodes, that's right

00:03:57.120 now exclusive on Lore. And I believe they're still in their beta testing right now, but that's called

00:04:02.140 Teach All Nations. And the biggest star that you got for that was yours truly, myself. No,

00:04:07.120 I'm just kidding. But you got multiple guys and I was one of them. So all right, no more further

00:04:10.880 ado. Nathan, tell our listeners a little bit about who you are, film, post-mill, all that kind of

00:04:16.120 stuff. Yeah. Thanks, Joel. Thanks for having me on the show. So yeah, I'm a filmmaker based out of

00:04:23.040 Chile, South America, little coastal town called Pichilemu. I live here with my family and we

00:04:30.680 serve also at our local church. I serve as an elder at our local church here in town and make

00:04:38.280 films. That's what I've been mostly up to these days. That's awesome. Tell us a little bit about

00:04:42.480 Teach All Nations, the docu-series. How can somebody watch it right now? If they can't,

00:04:47.440 when will they be able to watch it? And what was your aim? What was your goal in that series?

00:04:53.620 So my goal with Teach All Nations was a follow-up to my first film, which is

00:04:58.680 On Earth As It Is In Heaven. And that film was kind of presenting the post-millennial perspective,

00:05:04.780 basically and this film was a little focused in digging into more of the practical implications

00:05:12.960 of post-millennialism in terms of christian worldview and how that affects you know how we

00:05:19.300 live our lives ultimately if we think that we still have a long way to go and we start thinking

00:05:26.060 in a multi-generational fashion how is that going to affect how we view our families how we view

00:05:34.200 economics, how we view just these different areas of life.

00:05:38.880 And so what I tried to do in Teach All Nations was just kind of have an introduction to a

00:05:43.880 lot of those different practical applications of a Christian world and life view, considering

00:05:51.000 this long-term post-millennial covenantal perspective.

00:05:56.500 Got you.

00:05:56.980 Yeah, that's kind of what I took away in watching.

00:05:59.760 I watched, I think, three times my wife and I.

00:06:01.920 She couldn't hang all three times.

00:06:03.060 she was like, all right, that's enough, Joel, turn it off, you know? Uh, but I watched three

00:06:07.020 times, you know, the, the, uh, the full length film on earth as it is in heaven. And that was

00:06:12.420 kind of like a case for post post mill. And then it seems like teach all nations was like, okay,

00:06:17.100 now if post mill, then, then what, you know, how, like, kind of like the Schaefer, you know,

00:06:22.560 Francis Schaefer, how then should we live or how should we then live? Um, I was getting backwards

00:06:27.100 or he might've done both. What, what, which one is it? How should we then live or how should we,

00:06:32.500 I think it's How Then Shall We Live.

00:06:34.380 How Then Shall We Live.

00:06:35.840 It might not, I don't know.

00:06:37.580 You might be right.

00:06:38.840 Yeah, our listeners, they get the point.

00:06:41.320 So basically, like, if this is true, what are the takeaways?

00:06:45.100 And it seems like that's what the docuseries is.

00:06:47.000 And you said it's on Lure right now, exclusively, right?

00:06:50.600 Yeah, so it's exclusively on Lure.

00:06:52.600 Right now, you can be a part of the Lure, kind of the beta stage, you know.

00:06:58.720 so you can actually um through lure get a link to sign up for free right now and watch all five

00:07:07.080 episodes of teach all nations and there's another show on there called dark collar as well that you

00:07:12.500 can watch if you're a lure beta user so for now it's free at some point you know they're going

00:07:18.140 to have a paid subscription but um yeah if you guys um want that want to um beyond that there's

00:07:26.060 a link you know you guys can sign up cool and we'll try to get that to you great and then who

00:07:31.080 are some of the guys who are the main forget so it was doug wilson kenneth gentry and then who

00:07:35.240 are the two other guys in um the first film on earth as it is in heaven so the first film um it

00:07:41.340 was uh yeah it was it was doug wilson ken gentry steve greg and bruce gore okay those are the the

00:07:50.520 four guys right and then who are some of the guys uh with the teach all nations did you get doug

00:07:55.980 wilson again did you get jeff yeah so i i interviewed yeah i interviewed wow i i did

00:08:02.940 17 interviews total for the second movie so i uh did a lot of interviews that that time around for

00:08:10.080 sure also partly because i you know went to the conference the fight laugh feast conference at

00:08:15.200 the time and so a lot of the i had more interviews but some of them were shorter right so there was

00:08:20.760 some 30 minute interviews and stuff like that. Um, but yeah, no, I, I got to interview, uh,

00:08:27.380 Dr. Gary North, uh, Dr. George Grant, Jeff Durbin, uh, pastor Doug Wilson, um, uh, James

00:08:37.340 White. I got an interview, Dr. James White. Um, Andrew, Andrew Sandlin. I got, wow. I got

00:08:44.940 to interview a lot of, of, of great guys during that project. Awesome. All right.

00:08:50.580 Well, let's go ahead and just jump right in.

00:08:53.280 So here we go.

00:08:54.500 I'm just going to, yes or no question.

00:08:56.740 At the end of the age, when it's all said and done, after Jesus' final return, will

00:09:01.720 there be more people in heaven or will there be more people in hell?

00:09:07.160 That's the million dollar question, isn't it?

00:09:11.100 I said yes or no, but then I actually phrased the question in a way that it's not yes or

00:09:14.780 no.

00:09:15.200 Heaven or hell?

00:09:16.360 What's going to have the bigger population? 0.93

00:09:18.240 Heaven or hell?

00:09:19.360 What do you think?

00:09:20.580 Well, if you ask most evangelicals these days, they'll probably say, you know, hell, or they'll say, I don't know, that's, you know, that's, that's above my pay grade.

00:09:31.100 You know, I don't, I don't want to, you know, think about that or get into that.

00:09:35.060 But usually those that, you know, are willing to give an answer would probably say, I mean, obviously, there's going to be more people in hell, you know, I mean, we look through history and most people aren't Christians, right? 0.62

00:09:50.280 Most people aren't following Christ. And so if that, you know, pattern is what we are to expect, then we have no reason to believe otherwise. Right. And they would even point to certain biblical passages, you know, narrows the way, you know, they say few are they that find it. 0.82

00:10:12.080 And so there is this whole idea that a lot of people have that the Bible actually teaches that, you know, few people will be saved, most people will be lost, and that's kind of, you know, that's just pretty fundamental to a lot of people's thinking.

00:10:32.040 And so then they hear something like post-mill, you know, like perspective that, oh, well, we believe that in the future, right, that, you know, there's going to be more people saved and that, you know, actually the nations are going to become Christian.

00:10:48.760 And, you know, there's just going to be this, this just amazing extended period of blessing on the earth. And they hear that and that just breaks with a lot of that paradigm. And so a lot of times they just say, well, you know, post, therefore post-millennialism is wrong because it, it conflicts with this other paradigm I have, you know, and, and, you know, they, they'll say something like, you know,

00:11:18.760 If they're, you know, a bit more sophisticated in their response, they'll say, you know, you have an over-realized eschatology or something like that.

00:11:30.660 And so, yeah, that's why this question becomes, I think, pretty interesting and pretty important to consider, you know, does the Bible really teach that more people will be lost than those that will be saved, ultimately?

00:11:48.760 And I, you know, as a post-millennialist, my I think the answer to that question is no, that there will be more people saved than lost, you know, when because, you know, the Westminster Confession of Faith teaches, for example, that the number of the elect is fixed.

00:12:08.420 So there's there's a number, you know, we don't know, you know, we don't know the number, but there is a number and that number is fixed.

00:12:14.920 And and once everybody's been born, that's going to be born. Right. There that number is not going to shift, basically. And and so it's not like, you know, it's not like we think that there's going to be future generations in eternity or or something like that. Right.

00:12:33.340 So there's a cutoff point in terms of X amount of humans are going to be born throughout history, and some of those are going to be saved, some of those are going to be lost.

00:12:45.760 And so that's, you know, that's basically how we begin to consider this question, ultimately.

00:12:53.900 And whatever that number is, according to Revelation, that's a number that no man can count.

00:12:58.680 So, okay, so playing the devil's advocate, getting into, you know, some of the scripture

00:13:02.540 that would, that people would use, you know, because a lot of people that, you know, I

00:13:06.380 know what you're saying and I agree with what you're saying, but people would, they'd say,

00:13:09.300 no, it's not my paradigm, my paradigm, Nathan.

00:13:12.440 It's what the Bible plainly teaches.

00:13:14.420 It's right here, Matthew chapter 7, verse 13 and 14.

00:13:17.320 Enter by the narrow gate, for the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction

00:13:22.080 and those who enter by it are many.

00:13:24.580 for the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life and those who find it are few

00:13:31.380 right there there it is black and white few are going to be able to find this narrow gate

00:13:38.280 and the way that leads to life that is hard it's a difficult way and it leads to life

00:13:44.740 but to the contrary there are going to be many who who go on this easy way this broad path this

00:13:53.660 wide gate that leads to destruction. This is from what I've heard from people and what I used to

00:14:00.180 quote myself when I thought that hell would be far more populated than heaven. This is what I

00:14:06.480 would point to. And just for the record, I, you know, I never put a number on it and I don't

00:14:09.940 really know anybody who does. I'm sure there's a few wackos out there, you know, but nobody's 1.00

00:14:14.720 really saying like this exact number is going to hell and this exact number is going to heaven.

00:14:18.600 And nobody's doing that on the post-mill side. Nobody's doing that on pre-mill and all-mill

00:14:22.700 side. But if you had pressed me and said, okay, well, you know, in terms of percentages, Joel,

00:14:29.560 you think there's going to be more people in hell. Do you think like more people like 51%

00:14:33.440 versus 49? And I would have said, no, I think more like 80% versus 20 or 90% versus 10.

00:14:41.620 Like, not just like hell is slightly more populated than heaven, but that hell has like

00:14:49.300 close to 10 times the population of heaven, maybe even, maybe even more, maybe heaven is one

00:14:55.000 hundredth of the population of hell. And I would have hung my hat on the text. I just read Matthew

00:15:01.420 chapter seven, verse 13 and 14. I have some, you know, some, some ways to counter that now from

00:15:07.020 the scripture and not just, just anybody, you know, again, playing the devil's advocate of

00:15:10.960 somebody say, well, you know, Nathan sitting here, he's quoting the Westminster confession,

00:15:14.380 the man-made document, you know, well, the Westminster Confession is authoritative. It's

00:15:20.100 not the final arbiter of all truth, but it is an authority. But we have scripture to debate this,

00:15:25.620 but I want to give you the first swing at it, Nathan. What would you say to somebody who's

00:15:30.860 quoting Matthew 7, 13 and 14 as their quintessential proof text that hell is going to have way more

00:15:37.520 people than heaven? Yeah, yeah, definitely. Just to emphasize your point for a second, though,

00:15:44.380 that we're we're not debating for example like uh you know is um you know is nine percent of

00:15:52.900 of all humanity or seven percent of all humanity going to end up in heaven right you know that's

00:15:58.340 that's not the the it's it's not just this minuscule little difference here right like

00:16:04.120 what we're talking about is much larger scale is like are most people because right you know

00:16:09.860 really what what people are saying and a lot of times i think people don't even realize

00:16:14.080 you know that they believe this but then when you lay it out they're like oh yeah i guess i do believe

00:16:18.600 right like they really do believe that you know a minuscule percentage if they had to put a number

00:16:23.920 a minuscule percentage of the population is going to end up in heaven right they don't believe more

00:16:28.100 people will be in hell they believe most people will yeah it's it's not like uh you know debating

00:16:33.520 54 versus 52 or something like that like this is we're not nitpicking here where it's it's a much

00:16:41.500 larger scale issue. And so, but when we look at, you know, passages like the one you mentioned in

00:16:48.420 Matthew 7, the question we have to ask ourselves is in the context, is Jesus giving this rule or

00:16:58.580 general view for all of human history, right? Basically, as to how many are, you know, saved

00:17:08.240 and how many are lost in that sense.

00:17:12.000 Is that the way we're supposed to take that text?

00:17:14.080 Right.

00:17:14.300 Is this a prophetic prediction for all people in all places in all time?

00:17:18.780 Or, back to you.

00:17:20.480 Yeah.

00:17:21.160 Or is he speaking specifically to the audience that he was speaking to?

00:17:27.180 Is there something specific in that context that applies to what he's saying in this text?

00:17:36.660 Right.

00:17:36.760 And I've come to the conclusion, as many others, that he is speaking of that generation and that we're listening to him speak.

00:17:48.600 You know, ultimately, the question is, of that generation, are many going to be saved or are most going to be lost?

00:17:55.500 And he basically says that most are going to be lost.

00:17:58.440 And that's what happened. 0.52

00:18:00.240 I mean, most of the Jews rejected Jesus in that generation.

00:18:04.960 There were some, you know, like Paul says, you know, in Romans 11, it's not, you know, that, you know, he says, I'm a Jew.

00:18:12.700 And he talks about the fact that there is a remnant, right?

00:18:16.280 And it's actually very interesting that the only context, the New Testament, as far as I can tell, uses the term remnant applied in the New Testament.

00:18:26.640 He's talking about Jewish believers.

00:18:28.380 It's not talking about the church in general, right?

00:18:31.240 And so, he doesn't use that language of the church necessarily.

00:18:36.460 He uses it of a group within the church, which is these Jewish believers.

00:18:41.280 Most of the Jews rejected Jesus, but this remnant, including Paul, didn't reject the Messiah, ultimately.

00:18:50.640 And so, I think that is what is being spoken of. 0.63

00:18:54.460 Now, someone could say, okay, well, that's convenient, you know.

00:18:58.560 So, it's just talking about the first century or whatever.

00:19:04.080 But I think when we actually look at some of the other places where Jesus uses this language, it can be very helpful.

00:19:12.400 When we cross-reference, you know, Matthew 7, for example, with Luke chapter 13, right, where it talks about, you know, the narrow door.

00:19:22.200 And, you know, in Luke 13, 23, someone asked Jesus, Lord, will those who are saved be few, right?

00:19:30.700 And he uses almost, you know, very similar language, strive to enter the narrow door, you know, for many, I tell you, we'll see.

00:19:36.300 But it's interesting when you come on down to verse 26, he's talking about, you know, the people that are knocking on the door, trying to get let in.

00:19:48.520 Right, who are they?

00:19:49.200 and yeah and the master you know closes the door and what do they say they say in verse 26

00:19:53.880 then they will begin to say we ate and drank in your presence and you taught in our streets

00:20:00.420 right right that's talking that's talking about people in 2022 in america right right yeah we all

00:20:06.720 we've all yeah i saw i saw jesus just yesterday he was he was in the street and i you know and

00:20:13.040 we ate and we drank it like and that's so you know obviously i'm being facetious you know and

00:20:17.460 borderline blasphemous, so I apologize. I need to back up a little bit. But that's what I wish

00:20:23.160 people understood in their hermeneutic, that when we read scripture, all scripture is for us,

00:20:26.660 not all scripture is directly to us. Like all scripture is for us, but it's not all to us in

00:20:32.440 the sense that we are not in America or in Chile, and in the year of our Lord, 2022, we are not

00:20:39.580 the immediate audience that Jesus is speaking to. He is speaking for our benefit. The word of God

00:20:45.920 is still it's inerrant it's infallible it's sufficient um and it's for us uh but but it's

00:20:52.400 not directly this text is not directly to us it tells us who his immediate audience is the people

00:20:58.260 it's the people who are in his presence who ate and drank in your presence and taught

00:21:02.820 jesus taught in their streets so i 100 agree go on i'm sorry right yeah and so i i believe this

00:21:10.500 you know this really clears that up to a certain extent as to say oh wow okay so he's talking about

00:21:16.820 people that ate and drank with him that actually physically saw him preaching in their streets

00:21:23.260 that's not talking about our day that's talking about you know something that happened 2 000 years

00:21:28.380 ago um and so obviously if if that's the case it it does not apply directly to us i mean maybe

00:21:36.740 someone could say, well, yeah, it applied to them, but he's also speaking of this general rule. But

00:21:41.860 then you'd have to, you know, figure out where this general rule comes from, because you're not

00:21:46.420 going to get it from these texts, right? So, you have to go somewhere else to establish that. But

00:21:52.140 then there's something else that's even more interesting here, is when you, you know, it

00:21:57.880 talks about in verse 28, you know, you know, these people, you know, going to a place with weeping,

00:22:04.380 gnashing of teeth, you know, and it says, you will see Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and all the

00:22:09.280 prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves cast out. But then it, look at what it says in

00:22:15.120 verse 29, it says, and the people will come, sorry, and people will come from the east, the west,

00:22:22.020 the north, the south, and recline at the table in the kingdom of God. And so, it talks about another

00:22:27.880 group of people, right? So, this first group of people, you know, for the most part, will end up

00:22:34.200 in a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth. And they won't be with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob

00:22:39.680 in the kingdom of God. But this other group of people will recline at the table of the kingdom

00:22:45.840 of God. And these people will come from east, west, north, south. But then we go back to Matthew

00:22:50.680 and we go to Matthew chapter eight, right? And yeah, I think it's chapter eight with the story

00:22:57.680 of the yeah we're the story of the centurion and you jesus uses almost identical language here he

00:23:06.000 says i tell you many will come from the east west and recline at the table with abraham so notice

00:23:13.080 notice the slight difference there for the um luke just says people will come but here it says

00:23:18.620 many will come right and so here we're told that which verses are quickly that's matthew 8 uh verse

00:23:25.940 what verse 11 matthew 8 11 and then it says in in verse 8 12 it says well the sons of the kingdom

00:23:35.340 will be thrown into the outer darkness right a place where there's weeping and gnashing of teeth

00:23:40.360 so again we have this contrast as in luke 13 we have this contrast between right the the the jews 0.69

00:23:48.280 who for the most part reject jesus in that generation and are thrown into outer darkness 0.53

00:23:54.140 And then this multitude that comes from, you know, the east, the west, the north, the south, and comes into the kingdom of God.

00:24:04.480 And so that's what's being taught here.

00:24:07.480 It's not this general rule that, oh, just for all of history, most people are going to reject the Messiah.

00:24:16.240 Most people are going to end up in hell.

00:24:18.920 No, what's being taught is that in that generation, unfortunately, most people rejected Jesus.

00:24:25.640 But after that generation is judged, and they were judged, right, in 70 AD and all of that,

00:24:33.280 then the gospel goes out and really, you know, changes the world.

00:24:38.140 Right.

00:24:38.460 And all the nations flow in to the kingdom of God.

00:24:42.880 Amen.

00:24:43.980 Another thing that's interesting, Luke chapter 13, so that you, you were picking up with

00:24:47.740 verse 23.

00:24:49.800 So Luke 13, starting verse 23, someone asked him, right?

00:24:52.900 Just explicitly, you know, asking, will those who are saved be few, right?

00:24:57.340 And, and, you know, and it's that same language that we found in Matthew chapter seven, verse

00:25:01.180 13 and 14, strive to enter through the narrow gate, you know, but then it culminates in

00:25:06.080 verse 26 by specifically saying, you know, that the people who are, are cast out where

00:25:11.420 there's weeping and gnashing of teeth. They're the people that Jesus, you know, one of their claims

00:25:15.780 to, to, that they, they deserve salvation, that they have a right rights to Jesus is that we ate

00:25:23.220 and drank in your presence and you taught in our streets, right? And so you covered all that. And

00:25:26.720 then it goes down to, you know, verse 29, but people will come. And then we cross reference

00:25:31.000 over to Matthew chapter eight, that it's not just people, but many, many will come from East and

00:25:36.600 West. And so the sons of the kingdom, the Jews of that generation, not all of them, but the Jews

00:25:42.960 of Jesus' generation. So it's not even just that time, but that particular place and a particular

00:25:48.320 kind of person in that particular place at that particular time, the majority of them rejected

00:25:54.240 Christ, right? He came to his own, but they received him not. But then by contrast, from the

00:25:58.540 East and the West, all these Gentile nations are flowing to him and it's, you know, people are 0.99

00:26:02.980 coming, that's verse 29 in Luke 13. But then, like you said, cross-referencing to Matthew chapter 8, 1.00

00:26:08.780 it's not just people, but it's many. One other thing I wanted to point out in the beginning of

00:26:12.360 Luke chapter 13, not the very beginning of the chapter, but before getting to verse 23,

00:26:18.500 where they ask, will those who are saved be few? If we back up to verse 18, so just a few verses

00:26:24.040 before, here's the context leading into that question, will those who are saved be few?

00:26:29.700 at least the context as Luke, the human author, inspired by the Spirit, writes it down.

00:26:36.220 Luke finds it pertinent to mention this in verse 18 as he's setting this framework.

00:26:42.900 He says,

00:26:43.300 He said, therefore, what is he being Jesus?

00:26:46.880 What is the kingdom of God like?

00:26:48.520 And to what shall I compare it?

00:26:50.400 It is like a grain of mustard seed that a man took and sowed in his garden,

00:26:54.660 and it grew and became a tree.

00:26:56.320 and the birds of the air made their nest in its branches. And again, verse 20 now, he said,

00:27:03.380 to what shall I compare the kingdom of God? It is like leaven that a woman took and hid 1.00

00:27:07.580 in three measures of flour until it was all leavened. And so that's the context is first,

00:27:15.700 Jesus is describing the nature. And in describing the nature, I don't think it's merely the nature,

00:27:21.620 But I think it also includes the scope of the kingdom of God, that it is something that

00:27:26.340 like a little bit of leaven, it's worked in, it's gradual, right?

00:27:31.440 It starts small, grows slowly, but becomes significant.

00:27:35.740 In fact, according to, you know, to what Jesus is saying here, the way he's describing,

00:27:40.120 it's not just significant, but it becomes all encompassing that, you know, the leaven

00:27:44.400 leavens all of the whole batch of dough, you know, and this mustard seed, you know, this

00:27:50.480 tree. It's a great tree. And so, you know, and then we have like Daniel chapter two, right? The

00:27:55.220 stone cut with no human hands that shatters the kingdoms of this world, but then replaces the

00:28:02.060 kingdoms of this world and grows into a mountain that fills the whole earth. So that's the framework

00:28:07.000 is Jesus describing the nature and scope of the kingdom of God, which is it starts small,

00:28:12.920 It grows slowly, but it becomes a significant, overwhelming, massive force.

00:28:19.360 And then, then comes the question in verse 23 of Luke chapter 13, will those who are

00:28:25.560 saved be few?

00:28:27.460 And you're absolutely right.

00:28:28.960 Like Jesus, his answer, if we were to, you know, to give a synopsis, if we were to make

00:28:34.160 it more concise, his answer is yes, those who are saved are going to be few as it pertains

00:28:40.900 to you guys right here asking me the question. Your people in this place at this time,

00:28:49.440 there will be few of you saved because of hardness of heart, because of unbelief,

00:28:56.980 because I came to my own and they received me not. But then he goes on and makes it really clear

00:29:04.000 that, but he's not saying that the number of the saved will be few throughout all of the

00:29:10.600 human of human history in all places in all times by saying many will come from east and west so

00:29:16.880 it's anyway so i i just say all that to say i agree with you and i think that matthew 7 if we

00:29:21.820 take matthew 7 13 and 14 that everyone that's like the proof text that i used to use everybody uses

00:29:27.620 to say not just uh that hell will slightly be overpopulated from heaven 51 versus 49 but but

00:29:35.220 most people will say, if you press them, they'll say, yeah, hell will be far more populated than

00:29:40.980 heaven. Heaven will be a sliver of humanity. That's the proof text, Matthew chapter 7, 13 and 14.

00:29:46.680 And all you have to do is just pan out from Matthew 7, 13 and 14, look at Luke 13, cross-referencing,

00:29:52.780 same language. And then also look from Luke 13 and pan out and cross-reference back to Matthew

00:29:57.920 chapter 8, verse 11. And when you take all that into context with, I think, faithful hermeneutics

00:30:05.140 and reading the scripture, it seems like the answer is clear.

00:30:08.460 This is, Jesus is not saying few will be saved as a prophetic prediction for all places in

00:30:16.160 all time.

00:30:16.740 He's speaking to that people in that generation, in that place.

00:30:21.900 And the main point that he has in Matthew 7, 13 and 14 is not about few versus many,

00:30:28.640 but it seems like the main point that he's making is about the difficulty of the way

00:30:33.820 that leads to eternal life. He's saying it's narrow, it's difficult. Few ever find it. I

00:30:40.120 don't think that the emphasis is in numbers. I think the emphasis, if anything, is in difficulty.

00:30:46.480 There's one way that is broad and easy, but there's this other way that is narrow and hard,

00:30:52.440 difficult. Any further thoughts on that? Yeah, yeah. And well, just to connect with what you

00:30:58.840 were saying about you know the the the parable of the mustard seed and how that connects to

00:31:03.880 to all this um because um what we learn from that is that the kingdom of god grows slowly

00:31:14.260 right like a mustard seed and it grows progressively in history right because obviously

00:31:20.420 you know if you planted a must a seed tomorrow and you took a lawn chair you know and sat outside

00:31:27.320 to watch it grow, you know, that's going to be a pretty boring afternoon. You know, you're not

00:31:33.040 going to see much. And that's the way the kingdom of God grows. It grows slowly, sometimes even

00:31:38.220 imperceptibly, right, in that sense. And so, what we are seeing throughout history is this

00:31:47.020 progressive advance of the kingdom. Now, obviously, and this is an important point, if Christ returned

00:31:54.300 tomorrow, right? If Christ returned tomorrow, we would have to conclude that most people

00:32:01.740 in history are going to end up in hell, right? Because when we look back from this point at

00:32:08.460 human history throughout all generations, as far as we can tell, you know, most people have not

00:32:17.320 followed Yahweh. Most people have not been Christians. Most people have not followed Christ. 0.94

00:32:22.780 And so, from that perspective, you know, if Christ returned tomorrow, then yeah, most people would be lost.

00:32:32.540 But if we understand that this is something that's happening progressively in history, and we understand that if more are going to be saved than lost, then most of the elect are still not yet born.

00:32:46.660 Right.

00:32:46.980 Right. And that's an important point that there's still greater things in the future of the church than have been in the present and have occurred in the past.

00:32:57.860 Then we understand that the scope of the work that Christ is accomplishing, his work of redemption, is a lot more massive than most people consider.

00:33:10.980 consider, right? Because most people consider and think, well, we're probably living in the last

00:33:16.940 days. We're probably, Christ is probably about to return at any moment. When actually, it's a lot

00:33:24.940 more probable we're living in the early church, right? And that actually there's more and greater

00:33:33.140 things ahead of us than behind us at this point, which is strange for a lot of people to consider

00:33:39.800 Because, again, it goes against just certain paradigms that many have, you know, embraced along those lines.

00:33:48.560 Yeah, no, that's an important point, because I think some people think that post-millennials are lowering the bar for salvation, right?

00:33:56.320 That, like, basically, like, post-millennials, like, if you think more people are going to be saved than lost, then you must be counting all the members at Joel Osteen's church.

00:34:03.540 And so I'll just take a moment and pause here and just remind the listener that, you know,

00:34:08.960 I'm post-millennial, but I'm also a Calvinist through and through.

00:34:13.580 Like I'm the type of guy who enjoys hearing a sermon from Doug Wilson and also really

00:34:18.880 enjoys hearing a sermon from Paul Washer.

00:34:22.340 You know, so like we're not lowering the bar and saying, you know, that we think a lot

00:34:26.740 of people are going to be in heaven because it doesn't really take that much to be saved 0.72

00:34:30.460 and you can have this mediocre Christian light, fake salvation, and you can accept a prosperity

00:34:38.960 gospel and that'll be sufficient. And no, we're saying the reason why we think more people will 0.73

00:34:43.360 be saved is not because more people have been saved thus far, but because we just don't think

00:34:48.880 that we're at the end yet. And we don't think we could be wrong, but we don't think that Jesus is

00:34:53.360 coming back in the next 15 minutes. So the post-millennial baked into the pie in that

00:34:59.980 eschatology is like, we, we really do pretty much every post-millennial that I've talked to

00:35:04.380 believes that, that we're looking at not just a few more decades or even a few more centuries,

00:35:10.360 but, but very likely a few more millennia before the return of Christ, that thousands of more

00:35:16.100 years. And another thing to consider, and this is just a practical element, but another thing

00:35:20.580 to consider is it's like, okay, but you know, like if, if you're you know, a six day literal

00:35:25.980 creationist, you know, young earth, which, which I am, you know, if, if you hold to that kind of

00:35:31.500 creation theology and you're saying, all right, I'm going to date the world at like maybe six,

00:35:36.140 maybe 8,000 years, somewhere in that range, you know, and like, even if Jesus tarries for like

00:35:42.180 another six, 8,000 years, you're talking about like, he would have to save pretty much, you know,

00:35:47.540 everybody on the planet for the next 6,000 years steady, saving everyone in order for your numbers

00:35:53.520 to add up. And I would just point out one other, you know, major factor, which is the population

00:35:59.980 of the planet today is massively larger than the population of the planet for virtually every

00:36:10.600 single century up until just like 50, 60 years ago. Like you look at a graph of just the human

00:36:16.900 population, the way that it's exponentially grown. And there are some problems right now,

00:36:21.780 especially in Western nations in terms of depopulation, as people become disenchanted

00:36:27.140 with family and children and those kinds of things, as we've turned our back on the cultural

00:36:31.740 mandate to be fruitful and multiply, you know, like even Elon Musk, you know, who's, as far as 0.87

00:36:36.280 I can tell, a pagan, you know, he's not a Christian, but even he has enough in God's

00:36:40.560 common grace, enough sense and logic to recognize, man, we don't have overpopulation threats or

00:36:47.580 potential problems. We have depopulation, underpopulate. We need more people. And so

00:36:52.780 my point is just to say that if you're looking at like the last six to 8,000 years, you know,

00:36:58.720 we may have 8.2 billion people, give or take, on the planet today. But the average, if we took an

00:37:04.540 average number of people on the planet over the last six, 8,000 years, there weren't that many

00:37:11.260 people. There just weren't that many people. So even if 99% of them went to hell, there weren't

00:37:16.120 that many people. And if we're saying there's going to be another six to 8,000 years and possibly

00:37:20.420 30,000, you know, but like another, you know, six to 8,000 years, uh, but the average, uh,

00:37:25.460 population, total world population for this second half of human history, um, is, is, you know,

00:37:32.540 20 billion people, 50 billion people, a hundred billion people, maybe a trillion people, you know,

00:37:37.580 like we don't, we don't know. I mean, a whole world population right now could fit in Texas

00:37:41.860 comfortably, you know? So like everybody who's, you know, these myths of overpopulation,

00:37:46.180 all that, even that is just, it's a basic misunderstanding of what people are, right?

00:37:51.340 You have bad anthropology because you have bad theology. You don't know who God is. So you don't

00:37:55.000 know who man is. So you think like, we don't need more people because you have labeled people as

00:37:59.180 predominantly consumers, right? Who knows out of, out of the 60 million plus children who have been

00:38:05.980 murdered in their mother's womb, just since Roe, you know, in, in just in my nation, in the United

00:38:10.960 States of America, well, hey, that's 60 million less mouths to feed, is it? Or out of those 60

00:38:16.240 million kids, who would have grown up and figured out new technology for agriculture and producing

00:38:21.000 more crops? And who would have done this? And who would have potentially cured cancer? And who,

00:38:24.900 like, are people consumers first and foremost, or are they made in the image of God and capable

00:38:30.740 of incredible things? And so who knows what God might do just in his common grace, much less

00:38:36.360 special grace and gospel advancement to be able to stabilize, not only that we could survive,

00:38:42.280 but actually thrive with a higher quality of living, but supporting a hundred times the

00:38:47.700 current human population on this planet. And that's not even to speak of possibilities of

00:38:52.840 going to the moon and setting up a base there or Mars or whatever else. And if there's 6,000 more

00:38:57.700 years and you've got on average, like a hundred or a thousand times, just the total population

00:39:03.120 of humanity than you had for the first 6,000 to 8,000 years. But the Great Commission is

00:39:08.620 successful. The leaven is working through the whole batch of dough. And it's not just that

00:39:12.480 the leaven is spreading, but the batch of dough itself is exponentially growing. It's a bigger

00:39:17.940 pile of dough. Then, yeah, just practically speaking, aside from looking at some of the

00:39:24.280 scriptures, just logically speaking for a moment, the numbers easily add up. You could easily have

00:39:30.520 Not just, not just in the same way that, you know, most guys would say, it's not just 51%

00:39:35.820 going to hell and 49% going, they would say, no, the vast majority in hell.

00:39:40.080 Well, well, you could, as a post-millennial say, no, not just 51% heaven and 49% hell,

00:39:46.340 but the vast majority going to heaven, that heaven could really be a number that no man,

00:39:52.960 really be an amount of people that no man could number.

00:39:56.020 That makes hell look like just a tiny little group of people in terms of comparison.

00:40:04.000 There will be millions of people in hell.

00:40:05.840 From what we can tell in human history and what we know about church history, there are millions of people in hell right now.

00:40:11.520 Possibly a few billion people in hell right now.

00:40:15.420 But there could be trillions in heaven.

00:40:19.220 That's correct.

00:40:20.060 And I think it's important also to point out that it, you know, this idea also just goes naturally with the flow of Scripture and the language of the New Testament.

00:40:34.620 And, I mean, think about, you know, a lot of people have pointed this out, Warfield and others, this idea that Jesus is called multiple times the Savior of the world, you know, especially in the writings of John.

00:40:48.560 and think about how odd that would you know that would be as a title if in fact 99 of the world is

00:40:56.520 lost you know and um you know and and yeah people you know calvinists armenians kind of you know

00:41:04.600 fight about those texts you know for god so loved the world you know what does that mean and you

00:41:10.260 know calvinists say yeah it's the world is the elect and armenians say no you know it's a potential

00:41:15.240 salvation you know for everybody but right but ultimately they both most of them agree that

00:41:20.580 you know whatever you know that's supposed to mean it you know few are going to be saved right

00:41:26.780 right the armenian is going to say that it's each and every individual potential but only a few take

00:41:31.420 them up and then the calvinist is going to say it's not universalism like like potential for

00:41:35.400 each and every individual but world meaning globally like that god didn't just so love

00:41:39.680 israel but he loved brazil and china and everybody else and he but same but when you get down to

00:41:44.200 brass tacks who's taking you know who is god either electing or on the minian side of the

00:41:48.600 aisle who's actually taking god up on this offer of salvation both the calvinist and arminian agree

00:41:52.900 um very few right and it's and yeah and obviously god loved europe more than he loved you know most

00:42:00.200 of the other continents and most of the other nations because you know most of the people in

00:42:04.640 heaven are going to be european uh you know it would seem according to those demographics if

00:42:10.860 If Jesus came back, if he came back right now.

00:42:12.820 If Jesus came back, you know, tomorrow, that would have to be. 0.98

00:42:16.680 Well, really, if he came back about 100 years before today, then for sure it'd be primarily white. 0.98

00:42:23.320 But, yeah.

00:42:24.180 But, and it's, that's another interesting point that, you know, a lot of people say, you know, how can you think, you know, the gospel's advancing and Christianity's advancing, you know, look at Europe, you know, it's horrible how, you know, the Christianity has declined in Europe, you know.

00:42:40.220 the 16th century 17th century was kind of the uh you know the the golden age or something like

00:42:47.220 that but in reality you go back to that time and you ask well how many christians were there in

00:42:52.000 africa or how many christians were there in china you know yeah there was there was a great number

00:42:56.940 of christians in europe but the rest of the world i mean there's more christians alive today than

00:43:01.940 any other point in human history you know right and so um like combined almost yeah yeah i mean

00:43:09.400 it's amazing the number of people who are Christians today all over the world in that

00:43:16.240 sense. And so, I think it's very important to take that into account and to consider that the

00:43:23.520 future, all this language that the Bible uses, you know, of Jesus being the Savior of the world

00:43:30.740 is not accidental. It's, you know, in that sense, it's intentional because Christ really will

00:43:38.980 redeem most of the world when all is said and done you know he really will be the savior of the world

00:43:46.140 not the savior of every last man woman and child obviously you know we do believe people are in

00:43:50.920 hell but in general the majority if we believe the majority of the world is going to be saved

00:43:56.460 then savior of the world is a totally appropriate title that's right for for christ and so yeah i

00:44:03.340 think it's it's important to to point that out i think it's also important to and you know i'm

00:44:09.220 gonna let um i'm gonna let charles spurgeon make this point you know so people don't get mad at me

00:44:14.480 um but um you know even armenians like charles spurgeon so yeah i mean you most people like

00:44:21.200 charles spurgeon so i'll let him say it um he he said this he said how often do i hear people say

00:44:27.860 ah, straight is the gate and narrow is the way and few there be that find it. There will be very

00:44:34.260 few in heaven and most will be lost. My friend, I differ with you. Do you think that Christ will

00:44:42.000 let the devil beat him? That he will let the devil have more in hell than there are in heaven? No,

00:44:49.220 it is impossible for then Satan would laugh at Christ. There will be more in heaven than there

00:44:56.660 are among the lost goss says that there will be a number that no man can count who will be saved

00:45:02.940 but he never says there will be a number that no man can number that will be lost there will be a

00:45:09.760 host beyond all count who will be who will get into heaven you know that's what charles spurgeon

00:45:15.880 said and so he just that postman spurgeon huh yeah i mean he's um uh it's interesting though

00:45:21.320 because he's kind of, you know, mixed on his eschatology, you know, probably more of a

00:45:26.500 premillennialist, but he had that Puritan, you know, influence, that Puritan hope there as well.

00:45:32.800 And so it's very interesting what he's saying, because he's saying, look, I mean, if Christ

00:45:39.620 was the victor, if Christ defeated Satan, it's kind of strange for after defeating Satan, then

00:45:47.120 Satan just, you know, ends up taking nine-tenths of the human race to hell with him, you know,

00:45:56.860 for the next few thousand years, right? That's kind of a strange outcome. And, you know, people,

00:46:06.880 Christians, evangelicals have come up with all kinds of creative ways of justifying that and

00:46:12.040 saying that if you even bring up the numbers thing, you're just not spiritual. You're just

00:46:18.380 not thinking of the gospel in a Christ-centric kind of a way. You're thinking in a worldly way

00:46:28.920 or something like that. So apparently Spurgeon was very worldly when he pointed the obvious out

00:46:35.200 that, you know, well, if, you know, if Christ defeated Satan and, but then somehow Satan is

00:46:40.840 able to drag, you know, most of people in the rest of history with him to hell, that's kind of

00:46:48.100 a strange scenario in that sense. And counterintuitive to what, you know, we see in terms

00:46:56.620 of the history of redemption. And so, so I think it's a great point that he brings up. I think it's

00:47:04.140 an important point um and again it's a it's a point that i see you know uh amillennialists and

00:47:13.020 and you know well definitely pre-millennialists but amillennialists especially struggle with

00:47:17.100 because they have you know on the one hand they're saying well satan's bound right he can't

00:47:24.520 deceive the nations anymore but on the other hand somehow bound he's able to you know remain in

00:47:31.760 control of most of the nations right he's able to keep everybody for the most part under his thumb

00:47:39.180 except for you know a few exceptions and you know and to iron man the the you know the all millennial

00:47:45.100 as best we can and not just you know you know i'm not saying that you're doing this but to

00:47:49.100 if anybody you know would accuse us of using a straw man to iron man them as best we can you

00:47:53.860 know they would say well no it's not so much that you know satan you know yes we believe he was bound

00:47:58.000 you know, Jesus bound the strong man, and now we're plundering the house, you know, one gospel

00:48:02.120 proclamation at a time, the Great Commission going forward, plundering the house. But it proves to be

00:48:07.220 unsuccessful, not because the strong man, Satan, that has been bound by Christ is still operating

00:48:14.720 with such vigor and such power, but because of simply just the power of the flesh, right? That

00:48:19.020 there are three great enemies that we face. The devil is one of them, but there's also the world,

00:48:23.940 there's also the flesh. And, uh, because of just the doctrine of total depravity runs so deep,

00:48:29.300 uh, the curse of sin runs so deep. It's not so much that the devil is still deceiving the nations.

00:48:34.760 He's no longer deceiving the nations, but the nations are deceiving themselves to which, 0.61

00:48:38.740 so that I would say that that's a fair representation of the all millennial. That's 0.96

00:48:42.900 more of an iron man representation of their view, but still the counter would still be the same.

00:48:47.440 Okay, so then, you know, so Christ beats the devil, but Christ can't beat sin, right? 0.94

00:48:55.740 Because it's still Christ being a loser.

00:48:59.440 Christ ultimately, whether his opponent is Satan directly beating Christ, or whether 0.69

00:49:04.520 the opponent is simply the curse, the curse of sin beating Christ, right?

00:49:09.140 But everybody becomes a postman around Christmas time, right?

00:49:11.560 You know, we all, we sing those, those, you know, as far as the curse is found, far as

00:49:17.160 the, you know, like how far does the redemption go?

00:49:19.800 How victorious will Christ be?

00:49:21.560 Like, does he just bind Satan or does he also, does he conquer sin?

00:49:25.700 You know, and, and, and what are the implications of that?

00:49:28.580 Back to you.

00:49:30.240 Right.

00:49:30.840 And my question would be, when has the flesh ever thwarted the purposes of God in history?

00:49:37.560 Right.

00:49:37.920 Right.

00:49:38.480 When has that happened?

00:49:39.820 Right.

00:49:40.040 We believe in the sovereignty of God. We, you know, we believe in a God who even worked through, you know, Joseph's brothers doing, you know, that the flesh did not defeat God's purposes in that case or in any other case in history.

00:49:57.720 And so, you know, whether it's the devil's plans, whether it's the flesh, if God has a purpose, he's sovereign, he's going to accomplish it in history.

00:50:07.280 And so, really, the only recourse that someone would have is to say, well, God, you know, Jesus just doesn't really want the nations in this age.

00:50:16.820 He wants to give the nations, for the most part, to the devil, right? 0.63

00:50:21.480 And discipling the nations just means that he wants to have some people.

00:50:26.100 I mean, I even had an amillennial pastor, I heard an amillennial pastor who made something when Pastor James White became Post Mill, he was responding to that.

00:50:39.220 And he even said that North Korea is a discipled nation, right?

00:50:43.720 Because there's Christians there.

00:50:45.620 And so, you know, Christ returns tomorrow.

00:50:48.920 You know, that's that.

00:50:50.520 North Korea is a discipled nation. 0.72

00:50:52.080 Like, like Jesus had no greater hopes or plans for North Korea than for the Kim Jong-un and his people to, you know, oppress God's people until God returns.

00:51:08.440 North Korea is one of the disciples of Christ in the same way that Judas was, you know, like that, like we, we'd like to see the bar of discipleship just a little higher than, than that's, that's crazy.

00:51:19.920 that a pastor said that oh yeah because well and see that's the problem because they don't believe 0.60

00:51:24.320 in discipling the nations they believe in making disciples of individual people out of nations and 0.78

00:51:29.540 that these individual people could be you know two or three it's just such a pathetic redemption

00:51:36.300 it's such a weak small and and what you were saying earlier is so helpful because um that's

00:51:42.180 what we have to so whether the enemy is satan or whether the enemy is the flesh or whether the

00:51:45.480 enemy is the world, or as you and I would both affirm, it's all three. At the end of the day,

00:51:51.400 God is greater than all three of those enemies. And so it comes down to the purposes of God,

00:51:57.540 which no man can thwart. Sin can't thwart it. Satan can't thwart it. Man can't thwart it. The

00:52:01.360 world can't thwart it. The purposes of God cannot be hindered. They cannot be stopped. So it

00:52:06.440 ultimately comes down to the eternal decree of God. What does God want? What has he said? What

00:52:12.400 has he decreed? What is his desire? So basically it all boils down to one question. Does God want

00:52:19.460 the majority of people going to hell or not, right? Or does he want to save the majority of people?

00:52:24.520 And it's not just what God wants to people, but it's also what we know from the scripture about

00:52:29.020 the character and nature of God, the will of God, and what he desires in terms of his own namesake,

00:52:34.420 for your namesake, for his glory, for his fame. What does God want to do for man, but also what

00:52:41.040 does God want to say about himself by what he does for man? And I like, last thing that I want

00:52:47.000 to say real quick, I love that you brought up Joseph, right? The verse that you were getting

00:52:51.480 at is that, you know, where Joseph says, what you meant for evil, God meant for good. And it's not

00:52:56.420 just, you meant something, you had evil intentions for an evil action, but God salvaged it or turned

00:53:02.840 it for good. No, no, God intended, same word, what, you know, what you meant, what you intended for

00:53:08.860 evil. God, the implication, the necessary inference in that text is God ordained this. You were doing

00:53:15.140 it. You have human agency and responsibility for the action that you took. And yet behind your

00:53:20.280 action, there was the first cause of all things, the ordained will of God with an intention and

00:53:29.540 his intention in contrast to yours was a good and holy purpose. But then beyond that, the reason why

00:53:37.200 joseph is such a good thing to bring into the stories because one joseph is a type of christ

00:53:40.820 and two uh what is god's intention right so it's not just god meant it for good but but what was

00:53:46.800 this particularly specifically what was the good to save a great many people right so so so joseph

00:53:54.820 is such a great type of christ because what you have going on with joseph is um his own received

00:54:00.340 him not his household his brothers his brothers according to the flesh literal brothers they all

00:54:08.080 rejected him and they threw him down into a pit right just like jesus is down into the belly of

00:54:15.240 the earth i mean the parallels of the you know of joseph and christ are are incredible and um and

00:54:21.720 he's falsely accused joseph you know by potiphar's wife and thrown into prison and he's reviled and

00:54:26.780 he's mocked and all these things. His own brothers despise him. They receive him not. They hand him

00:54:31.740 over just like Judas handed Jesus over for 30 pieces of silver. His brothers, Joseph's brothers

00:54:37.160 hand him over for silver. And so all the different parallels, but then Joseph, all the intentions of

00:54:44.660 the brothers are, they, they meant evil towards their brother, Joseph. It was out of spite,

00:54:49.500 but God doesn't just salvage it. God behind the action of Joseph's brothers, God ordained it with

00:54:55.700 good and holy and righteous loving purposes. And the purposes weren't just loving for Joseph

00:55:01.140 to exalt and glorify Joseph, but that through Joseph who was thrown down into the pit, but that

00:55:07.980 would one day be exalted and raised up when he was finally exalted through Joseph's exaltation,

00:55:15.800 a great many people would be saved and not just his brothers, the house of Jacob, his father and

00:55:22.820 the people of Israel in seed form, but Egypt, the greatest superpower known in the world at that

00:55:29.860 time and all the nations coming to Egypt because the famine was very great throughout all the land.

00:55:35.860 So what happened in the story of Joseph? His own brothers received him not. They had evil

00:55:40.660 intentions. God was standing behind the whole thing, ordaining it all with good intentions

00:55:44.660 and not just personally good intentions for Joseph's sake, but that through his goodness

00:55:49.480 to Joseph, he might save many people from every tribe, tongue, and nation across the known world

00:55:54.460 at the time. And so then you get into like, okay, like, you know, how many people died of starvation?

00:56:00.480 I'm sure some people did. But overall, what we can tell from the narrative, from that story of

00:56:05.700 Joseph, is that by Joseph's wisdom and by his exaltation, the majority of the known world was

00:56:13.200 was saved. They made it through the famine. They, they didn't starve. They lived, they lived. And

00:56:19.100 if you compare that, you know, and, and look at Joseph as a type of, of Christ. And so, you know,

00:56:25.100 all of it being said, one more thing real quick, B.B. Warfield, right? So you sent me the article.

00:56:29.320 It was fantastic. And I was reading that, you know, this 10 page article by B.B. Warfield.

00:56:33.140 And one of the things he also said about parables, you just got to be careful. Like, what is the,

00:56:37.620 in what sense does Jesus, is he using the parable? What is Jesus trying to say in the

00:56:43.020 parable. Cause you can read out, right. Pastors get wacky and funky, you know, teaching through

00:56:47.480 parables sometimes. Cause it'd be like, and notice this point of the parable. And it's like, well,

00:56:52.560 but is that the point of the parable? Or is it, you know, like, like you can go too far

00:56:57.020 in, in the way that you try to push, you know, the principle or the morals of a parable. You

00:57:02.520 have to use the parable the way that Jesus intends it to be used. What is he communicating?

00:57:06.340 And so with the narrow is the gate and hard is the way that leads to life, if you ever find it,

00:57:14.200 and broad is the gate and easy is the way. I really think the way Jesus, that's a parable.

00:57:20.920 And the way that Jesus is using this descriptive parable, I think it's clear from the larger

00:57:27.060 context what Jesus is saying. He's speaking more to the nature of the way than the size of the

00:57:33.460 people or the scope of the people who traverse that particular way. I think the emphasis is not

00:57:38.000 on few and many. The emphasis is on easy and hard, wide versus narrow. I think what Jesus is saying

00:57:44.460 is there's only one way that leads to life. I don't think the major point is few are saved.

00:57:51.600 I think the main point is there are multiple ways that lead to destruction. Wide path that leads to

00:57:57.480 destruction. Pluralism leads to destruction. But there was only one way that leads to life. I am 0.96

00:58:04.000 the way, the truth, and the life. And it's a difficult way. It's a way that no man can traverse

00:58:08.080 on his own. It's by faith alone, by grace alone, through faith that you must be born again.

00:58:12.080 That's what Jesus is saying. And so B.B. Warfield, he takes that and just shows you the absurdity

00:58:18.240 by using another parable and says, what if we were to read the percentages of who's going to

00:58:24.540 end up in heaven and who's going to end up in hell from another parable of the 10 virgins.

00:58:28.700 So 10 virgins, the bridegroom is coming, right? And they all go out to meet him because he's

00:58:33.780 coming in the middle of the night and five of the virgins are wise and they bring extra oil 0.94

00:58:39.280 for their lamps and five of the virgins are foolish and they don't bring enough oil. And so 0.93

00:58:44.100 their oil runs out, their lamps grow dim. They go to the wise virgins and say, please give us some

00:58:48.720 of your oil. And the wise virgins say, no, because we may not have enough for ourselves and the

00:58:53.560 bridegroom could come and we'll miss him. And so the five foolish virgins, they go back into town 0.99

00:58:58.900 to buy more oil and the bridegroom comes and he takes the five wise virgins in with him and they 0.99

00:59:04.520 close the doors and the five foolish virgins are locked out and it's too late. And so B.B. Warfield 0.92

00:59:09.020 looks at that and he says, so here we have it. Clearly what Jesus is telling us in this parable

00:59:14.560 is that 50% of all of human population throughout human history will be in hell and 50% will be in

00:59:20.600 heaven, five and five. No, you don't read the parable that way. That's not what's being

00:59:24.820 communicated by the parable. And so he's just using that as an example, you know, from the,

00:59:28.760 from the greater to the lesser to show the absurdity. We have to read parables for the

00:59:33.900 purpose that the Lord intended them. So any thoughts on that? Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, I,

00:59:40.440 I think, I mean, I just, I think that you, you mentioned, you know, the emphasis being on the

00:59:47.080 difficulty of the way and not the number. And I think that's important. And I think it also leads

00:59:53.140 into a common objection people have with regards to all of this, because they go, well, if you're 0.91

00:59:59.820 saying that in the future, the nations are going to be Christian, there's going to be more Christians

01:00:03.840 in the world, and it's going to be a better place in a lot of ways, then where is all that suffering? 1.00

01:00:09.840 You know, I mean, isn't the Christian life from beginning to end, this mortal life is supposed to 0.89

01:00:16.500 be, you know, marked by suffering. And if things are going to get better, wouldn't that diminish 1.00

01:00:22.680 suffering, right? So, that's a very common objective, you know, objection, sorry, people

01:00:29.340 have to post-millennialism. Well, I think it's pretty, I think it falls apart very quickly

01:00:36.360 in the first place, because suffering for Christ actually, even now, looks a bit different

01:00:45.600 for someone living in southern california for example um compared to someone living in north

01:00:53.720 korea right going back to that example like even today um are we gonna really say that um that the

01:01:02.640 fact that the degree of suffering that one person is experiencing um and the the the much lesser

01:01:10.580 suffering that the guy in southern california's experiences means that they're not really a

01:01:15.200 christian because they're not really suffering for jesus because they get to go to in and out and

01:01:20.040 you know and and enjoy the sunshine and all these things um so uh so even today that doesn't really

01:01:29.180 work like there's degrees of suffering and obviously when we talk about the world becoming

01:01:34.580 christian we're not saying that all suffering will be ended right because even if all the

01:01:41.000 world is christian even if you know to the last man woman and child everybody's a christian in

01:01:45.860 the future uh christians sin right christians uh you know the it's it's not all easy there's

01:01:55.000 hardship and life you know and and those hardships are not going to be completely done away with

01:02:01.300 until christ returns right basically and so the the continuance of suffering and difficulties and

01:02:09.420 hardships, though the degrees may be less, is something that will be constant throughout.

01:02:16.260 Totally. Yeah. We may not be thrown to lions in a Colosseum, but we're not being thrown to lions

01:02:20.220 in a Colosseum right now. Right? So it's like, oh, then I guess the words of Jesus aren't true

01:02:25.140 because we've lived in America on the backdrop of Christendom. That's why we're not being thrown

01:02:31.380 to lions. And if God doesn't do something in his mercy, if we don't repent of our sins and call

01:02:38.600 out and cry out to Jesus and bring America back to Christ, then we maybe eventually will be thrown

01:02:47.600 to lions. But the point is that we're not talking about something that's never been done before.

01:02:53.040 I think that's important for people to understand. There have been time periods over the last 2,000

01:02:56.840 years, and I would argue that at least in the West, we're in one of those time periods right now

01:03:01.840 in Western cultures where, where Christianity was the dominant influence. And so by and large,

01:03:11.260 it's, it's, you know, it, there are certain benefits and provisions, practical benefits

01:03:17.100 and provisions for being a Christian. There's not a ton of persecution, right? So like, so,

01:03:22.800 so somebody who would say, well, postmill can't be true because exactly what you're saying. It

01:03:27.200 can't be true because then that would do away with suffering. Okay. Well, I'm sure that people

01:03:32.420 in the first century church who were being thrown to lions, if they, if they knew what your life was

01:03:37.040 going to be like in, in, in Texas, you know, going to Whataburger to change it from Southern

01:03:41.400 California. Cause I don't, you know, I live in Southern California and I love Southern California.

01:03:44.660 So I say Texas is even, even more, you know, more cozy and comfy. But, but you know, like first

01:03:50.540 century, if the apostle Paul was looking at my life, he'd be, you know, like he'd be tempted

01:03:53.900 to say, where's the suffering? But the reality is like, we suffer because of sin. We don't just

01:03:58.340 suffer because of the world. And we don't just suffer because of there being a majority population 1.00

01:04:03.960 of unbelievers persecuting Christians. No one has hurt me more over the course of my life than

01:04:10.060 Christians. And there is no one, to be fair, that I've hurt more than fellow Christians. I have

01:04:15.060 sinned against Christians more than I've sinned against pagans. And Christians have sinned against 0.96

01:04:19.040 me, personally, more than pagans have sinned against me. Because I've been doing my life

01:04:23.160 predominantly with Christians. The relationships that I've formed have been with fellow Christians

01:04:27.820 and in relationships with Christians, me being a Christian by the grace of God, them being a 0.99

01:04:32.340 by the grace of God, we're still jerks and it hurts and it's hard and it's suffering. And so 0.99

01:04:39.220 you're absolutely right. But we need to land the plane, but I feel like we've made, I feel

01:04:45.040 persuaded. My biased mind has been thoroughly persuaded in our beautiful echo chamber that

01:04:52.280 we've created for this recording. I hope that other people who were maybe not on board have

01:04:57.960 been challenged. I think that we've made a compelling case. I think that we've looked at

01:05:01.040 the scripture. We've looked at church history. We've looked at guys like B.B. Warfield. I love

01:05:04.820 that you brought Spurgeon into the mix, but are there any final words that you want to give us

01:05:10.040 as we go ahead and conclude the episode for today? Yeah, well, I think, yeah, we've looked

01:05:17.080 at a lot of these different issues. And I think it's something that a lot of Christians haven't 1.00

01:05:22.780 really thought about, haven't really considered. You know, that's been my experience when I talk

01:05:27.120 about this subject with fellow Christians, especially Christians that have a different

01:05:31.520 eschatological view. For the most part, it's not something they have thought about. It's not

01:05:38.540 something that they find to be an important topic. They say, well, that's just kind of,

01:05:44.120 We'll just leave that up to the Lord and not worry about that too much.

01:05:48.720 But I think it really is important to consider and look at the scriptures and see what is actually there and what we actually see in terms of this idea that actually the future is a lot more glorious for the church than we would think a lot of times.

01:06:11.580 And just, you know, just to close with that, I'd like to briefly quote George Whitefield talking about this subject, talking about the future of the church.

01:06:21.680 And he said, there are more excellent things ahead, glorious things that are spoken of these times when the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea.

01:06:34.860 And then he says, for all former glory of the Christian church shall be nothing in comparison to the glory that shall excel.

01:06:46.320 Then shall they cry out, with the governor of the feast, thou hast kept the good wine until now.

01:06:53.360 So I just wanted to leave that Whitfield quote.

01:06:56.360 Kept the good wine until now.

01:06:58.340 I love that.

01:06:59.300 That's good.

01:07:00.260 Thanks for sharing that.

01:07:01.520 All right.

01:07:01.820 Well, thanks, guys, for tuning in.

01:07:03.060 I hope that this has been helpful for you and seeing one of the practical benefits of

01:07:08.340 the post-millennial eschatology that we believe that not only is it glorious and is it exciting,

01:07:14.380 is it Christ's victory, but it's Christ's victory first and foremost for his glory,

01:07:19.060 but also for the good of mankind.

01:07:21.820 We want to see people saved and we want to see lots of people saved.

01:07:26.200 In fact, the majority of people saved.

01:07:28.860 So thanks for tuning in.

01:07:30.580 Thanks so much for listening.

01:07:31.520 But real quick, before you go, do us a small favor, take a moment, and leave us a five-star

01:07:37.000 review if you enjoyed the show.

01:07:39.000 This is undoubtedly the best way that you can help us get this biblically faithful content

01:07:44.240 to as many people as possible.

01:07:46.380 Thanks so much.

The NXR Podcast - October 11, 2022

THEOLOGY APPLIED - Postmillennialism ｜ Will Few Be Saved？

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript