The NXR Podcast - THEOLOGY APPLIED - Reiki, Energy Healing, & “Laying On Of Hands”

00:00:00.000 Hi, this is Pastor Joel Webbin with Right Response Ministries, and you're listening to

00:00:04.060 another episode of Theology Applied. In this episode, I was privileged to have as a special

00:00:09.240 guest, Doreen Virtue. Today's topic is something that she's been dealing with a lot on her channel

00:00:15.680 with her ministry, which is Reiki healing. And when I say dealing with a lot, what I mean is

00:00:20.660 that she's been getting a lot of flack. Now, she's gotten a lot of encouragement as well,

00:00:24.520 but she's got a lot of pushback. And ironically, a lot of it has come from those who profess to be

00:00:31.000 followers of Christ. They say Reiki healing or energy healing is really nothing different than

00:00:36.760 the biblical principle of laying on of hands. Well, both Doreen and I would beg to differ.

00:00:43.380 Also, before we get started, if you would like to support Right Response Ministries,

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00:01:55.040 Without further ado, here's our show.

00:01:57.860 Applying God's word to every aspect of life.

00:02:01.300 This is Theology Applied.

00:02:09.480 All right, so welcome to another episode of Theology Applied.

00:02:12.800 And as I've already mentioned, I'm privileged to be joined now, I believe, for the third

00:02:17.920 time by our special guest, Doreen Virtue.

00:02:21.480 Doreen, would you just take a moment and introduce yourself to our listeners?

00:02:25.080 Hi, Pastor Joel.

00:02:25.940 It's great to be back with you.

00:02:27.380 Hi, everyone.

00:02:28.580 This is a topic that is pretty intense.

00:02:33.380 Whenever I post about this or do a video about it, I get a lot of pushback.

00:02:38.240 So I'm really glad to talk with you today because I was, before I was saved, I was a

00:02:43.400 Reiki master and an energy healer.

00:02:46.800 Yeah.

00:02:46.900 I didn't know that.

00:02:48.040 Yeah.

00:02:48.620 Yeah.

00:02:49.200 So I have a background in Reiki.

00:02:51.640 I received it.

00:02:52.420 I gave it. 1.00

00:02:53.580 And I've just, I want to sound the alarm, especially for professing Christians about 0.97

00:02:58.440 the real truth background of Reiki and why Christians should have nothing to do with

00:03:04.440 Reiki and energy healing in general.

00:03:07.340 So real quick, so that's our topic.

00:03:09.780 We're going to talk about Reiki, energy healing, and we're going to be talking about the biblical

00:03:14.140 principle of laying on of hands.

00:03:16.640 And you said you've gotten pushback, and I can only imagine we've corresponded a little

00:03:20.300 bit in preparation for this episode, that the pushback, some of it is coming, or maybe

00:03:24.800 even a lot of it is coming from professing Christians who are saying, well, the Bible

00:03:28.880 says laying on of hands, we pray for the sick and we lay on our hands.

00:03:31.980 What's the difference between that and Reiki?

00:03:33.500 So my question is this, so what have you done recently in the internet world that has so upset so many people?

00:03:43.100 What do you think, if you could put your finger on it, what is the thing that people are taking the issue with the most?

00:03:49.920 It's exactly what you and I talked about and what I'm so excited you're going to talk about today is that people have been told lies, 0.63

00:03:57.780 marketing lies that go back to the history of Reiki in its beginning. So if I could just

00:04:04.980 real quickly give a capsule history, it was invented or discovered, depending on how you

00:04:11.260 look at it, by a man in Japan in the 1930s named Asui, Mikayo Asui. And he was a student of world

00:04:19.540 religion. And he got inspired for Reiki through a Buddhist manuscript that he says he has a

00:04:29.980 revelation. He wrote a book about this. He said he had a revelation. And it involves these symbols

00:04:35.840 that practitioners are attuned to. They're very bizarre symbols. Maybe we can show some of them

00:04:42.080 here on this video um and and so as a reiki master you go through a series of different

00:04:49.440 classes to get attuned upward and um and it's often very expensive to become a reiki master

00:04:55.880 and and so you want you know that there's this kind of um snobbery that you want to go to a

00:05:03.280 teacher who comes from the asui lineage which was my teaching um that's the originator but what

00:05:09.980 happened was that Asui taught 2000 students Reiki. And Reiki is an energy that supposedly

00:05:17.200 comes from the universe, which is, of course, a New Age term, the New Agers are all about

00:05:23.480 universal energy. And Reiki itself means spiritual universal energy. Reiki is spiritual energy. And

00:05:33.840 so it comes through these symbols you've been attuned to, and often through your hands,

00:05:38.940 but you don't have to use your hands. People do different things to send Reiki energy. But I want

00:05:44.480 to tell you, Pastor Joel, that it's palpable. I mean, there's something real going on. There's

00:05:51.040 a lot of scientific studies that people say it's bogus, it's just a placebo. And I believe that.

00:06:00.320 But whenever I got or received Reiki, before I was saved, I haven't been involved with it since,

00:06:06.160 you could feel this pulsating effect similar to kind of like a vibrating chair. I mean,

00:06:12.080 it was real and I would have physical effects from it. So Reiki is real, but the question is,

00:06:17.920 what's its source? So Asui taught 2000 students. One of his students went on to teach a Hawaiian

00:06:26.240 woman, a Japanese American woman named Haya, I cannot pronounce her name, Hawaii Takato. Okay.

00:06:35.000 And so Takata was a Reiki master who took Reiki from Japan to the West, very similar to how Yogananda brought yoga from India to California in the West.

00:06:48.740 So Takata admittedly, she's passed on now, she admitted that she made up a story that Asui was a Christian theology professor at a Christian school, and that he received Reiki inspiration from Jesus Christ and Jesus's healings.

00:07:08.740 and she just completely fabricated this story she said admittedly to make reiki more appealing in

00:07:18.340 the west so she lied and and so later it was discovered that uh sui never said that he said

00:07:27.420 he obtained the knowledge of reiki from the buddhist religious book tantra and tantra is an

00:07:33.260 energy, very sexualized energy that's taught, that's popular in the New Age. Tantra of the

00:07:40.320 lightning flash is where he got this. It had nothing to do with Christianity. I mean, he was 0.92

00:07:46.120 a student of world religion, and one of the religions was Christianity, but Reiki's not

00:07:52.620 Christian. So anyone who's citing that, unfortunately, they've been deceived by this

00:07:58.320 original marketing lie. Wow. So some of the pushback that you're getting is from professing

00:08:07.200 Christians saying, well, but there is a biblical principle for the laying on of hands. How have you

00:08:12.980 responded to that? Yeah. So, I mean, I've, I've said that it has, one has nothing to do with the

00:08:18.840 other. It's like trying to equate modern day psychics with biblical prophets. You know,

00:08:24.180 They can seem similar, but they're nothing like each other.

00:08:29.420 Gotcha.

00:08:30.640 Okay.

00:08:31.220 Well, let's go ahead and just take a moment and look at, as you were speaking, I was going

00:08:36.080 ahead and marking my places in my Bibles just so that we can look at a few passages.

00:08:40.660 There are numerous texts throughout Scripture that mention the laying on of hands.

00:08:46.000 And there are at least a few, at least three or four or even five purposes for laying on

00:08:52.380 of hands in the Scripture.

00:08:53.420 So I've selected obviously not all the texts that reference the laying on of hands,

00:08:58.320 but I've selected kind of a sampling, if you will, of some of these texts

00:09:01.900 to show us some of the different biblical purposes for the laying on of hands

00:09:06.280 because it's not all related to healing, although that is one of the purposes.

00:09:11.260 We see Jesus praying for the sick and laying his hands on them,

00:09:14.940 but we certainly see that in the life of the disciples and the apostles.

00:09:18.920 And we even have a command. We are actually exhorted that is any among you sick, James chapter 5, then let him go to the elders of the church that they may pray for him, anointing him with oil and laying hands on him and praying for him, the sick person will be made well.

00:09:37.300 So here are just a few texts. Is that okay if I read some?

00:09:40.200 Oh, please. This is what we need for professing Christians to understand.

00:09:44.480 Right. All right. So here we go. So this is Acts chapter 8, verse 17. It says, 0.94

00:09:50.280 Then they laid their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost, or the Holy Spirit.

00:09:57.000 And so one of the purposes that we see for the laying on of hands, particularly in the New

00:10:01.840 Testament since Pentecost, in Acts chapter 2, from that point on, we see the laying on of hands by

00:10:09.540 the apostles in such a way that people are receiving the Holy Spirit. And we see, I believe

00:10:17.480 it was Simon, the sorcerer, who when he discovers, when he witnesses the apostles laying on their

00:10:23.440 hands and people receiving the Holy Spirit with certain signs, sign gifts that are validating

00:10:30.540 that they did in fact receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit, this sorcerer, you know, he tries to

00:10:36.820 bribe and buy not just the Holy Spirit, not just that he would receive the Holy Spirit, but the

00:10:42.800 ability that the apostles seem to exclusively possess to be able to lay his hands on people

00:10:49.820 and for them to receive the Holy Spirit. So he goes to Peter and asks, you know, he offers him

00:10:54.960 money and saying, can I too have this ability, you know, so that I can lay my hands on people

00:10:59.580 and they would receive the Holy Spirit and power. And Peter immediately, you know, chastises him,

00:11:05.400 you know, for thinking that he could buy this gift of the Holy Spirit with his money. He said,

00:11:11.280 you know, may your money perish with you also. And it seems as though, you know, I don't know

00:11:16.320 if he repents, but he certainly changes his position and doesn't try to, you know, to buy

00:11:24.240 that ability any longer. So that's one of the purposes is laying on of hands. We see in the

00:11:28.940 New Testament that people would receive the Holy Spirit. Now, real quick, just so that, you know,

00:11:33.080 I've got some Pentecostals who listen to the show, and so I hate to burst the Pentecostal bubble.

00:11:38.900 I love you guys, those of you who are Orthodox and well under the banner of Christian Orthodox theology.

00:11:47.120 I would still disagree with you on this point in terms of the idea of the baptism of the Holy Spirit being a subsequent experience to conversion.

00:11:58.280 So there's conversion, then there's conversion 2.0.

00:12:01.020 It's similar to Wesleyan theology, which I would also disagree with that.

00:12:05.460 So I'm a Calvinist.

00:12:06.440 I'm a cessationist.

00:12:07.420 I would disagree with the Wesleyan folk, and I would also disagree with the Pentecostal folk.

00:12:13.080 So Wesley had this idea of reaching a state of perfection, this enlightenment, that you could basically come to a point where you're no longer sinning.

00:12:27.520 And even Wesley in his theology would understand that, you know, well, there's still a sense in which we're sinning, but it's, you know, he would quote the apostle Paul from Romans where he says, well, it's no longer I who sin, but sin living in me, you know.

00:12:39.180 And so he would look at that, and I believe that's Romans 7, whereas I would look at Romans 7 and say this is Paul really, Paul lamenting his state as a Christian.

00:12:52.700 Paul in Romans 7, I personally take the viewpoint.

00:12:55.600 I know that there are multiple views on this, but I take the approach that Romans 7 is not Paul before conversion.

00:13:02.820 It's a picture of Paul after conversion, that even after conversion, that he's saying,

00:13:08.720 what is wretched man I am who will save me from this body of death?

00:13:12.380 And he recounts the Christian struggle, ongoing struggle with sin.

00:13:16.240 So anyway, so Wesleyan had this idea of Christian perfectionism, holiness, right?

00:13:21.160 The holiness movement and that you could reach this certain echelon of sanctification to where you would no longer struggle with sin in the way that you previously did.

00:13:31.980 Well, Pentecostals kind of took this and, you know, 1906 would have been the big moment with the Azusa Street revival and those kinds of things.

00:13:39.460 And so they likened it to, well, the Holy Spirit coming upon someone with power.

00:13:45.220 And they often would, you know, separate and say, well, there's the inward ministry of the Holy Spirit, the indwelling ministry of the Holy Spirit that all Christians have from the moment of conversion.

00:13:53.460 The Spirit inside of us, you know, cries out, Abba, Father, you know, and affirms our salvation, that we are, in fact, adopted children of the Lord.

00:14:02.940 But there's a difference in the Holy Spirit indwelling the Christian, being in the Christian versus the Spirit coming upon the Christian and anointing them, equipping them with power, signs and wonders.

00:14:14.760 And the Pentecostal, the classic position, is that the quintessential signed gift of the Holy Spirit is tongues.

00:14:20.980 And so you're already saved subsequent to that moment of conversion.

00:14:25.820 Somewhere down the line, it could be a few months, it could be several years, but eventually you should be pursuing the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

00:14:32.660 if you're pursuing it, it eventually will occur. And the sign, the validation or evidence that

00:14:39.500 you've received it is the speaking in tongues. So all that back to the text that I just read

00:14:43.820 from Acts chapter eight, verse 17. My point is to say, this was a very unique dispensation

00:14:51.060 within church history. Now I use the term dispensations simply speaking of an error of

00:14:58.120 time. I am personally not a dispensationalist. I would adhere to a Reformed Baptist 1689

00:15:03.460 covenantal theology. But even the covenant theologians can still use the term dispensation.

00:15:09.260 So this is a unique era of time. And what we basically have is there are many people who

00:15:14.440 were converted through the preaching of Jesus, the preaching of Christ and his disciples,

00:15:20.080 and even the preaching of John. John preached. He preached a ministry, a sermon, if you will,

00:15:27.280 of the remission of sins, baptism, right?

00:15:30.660 John's baptism, people coming down to the water

00:15:32.800 and being baptized, and John's saying

00:15:34.460 that they're receiving forgiveness of sins.

00:15:36.840 And John taught this not as a work, works righteousness,

00:15:39.840 but John was the chief among the prophets

00:15:42.440 other than Christ himself.

00:15:44.140 Jesus even said, of all those born of women,

00:15:46.400 John the Baptist is the greatest, 0.63

00:15:47.820 and yet he'll be least in the kingdom of heaven.

00:15:50.240 But in his earthly ministry,

00:15:51.320 there's none that compares to John the Baptist.

00:15:54.120 He is the greatest of the prophets,

00:15:56.340 And he's kind of the final prophet underneath this old covenant that's ending, that's closing with Christ establishing the new covenant.

00:16:04.660 And so all that being said, John was preaching a gospel message.

00:16:07.900 It wasn't a pharisaical message of works.

00:16:10.800 It was a legitimate message.

00:16:12.840 And John himself, when approached by Jesus as he's baptizing in the Jordan River, he says,

00:16:18.160 Behold, the Lamb of God who comes to take away the sins of the world.

00:16:21.360 So whatever gospel John was preaching, it wasn't a gospel that merely says baptism as a magical, mechanical mechanism saves you, but the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world saves you, and baptism is a symbol of that, the remission of sins.

00:16:38.100 And so it was a it was a message of repentance. It was a message of also we can assume it's implicit that it was a message of faith, believing and trusting the Lamb of God, the Messiah who would come and that we would be saved through faith in him, his substitutionary death.

00:16:52.240 So my point is through John the Baptist preaching, as well as Jesus and the disciples, there were literally thousands, if not tens of thousands of people who were converted, but before the Spirit was poured out.

00:17:05.200 But because the Spirit proceeds, we believe, within Christian orthodoxy, we're not Eastern Orthodox, and this is one of the differences, is as those who are Western Christian orthodoxy in line with St. Augustine, who kind of drew the line on this, we believe that the Spirit proceeds from both the Father, not the Father only, but both the Father and the Son.

00:17:26.580 And so, the Spirit, even the ministry of the Holy Spirit, is a ministry that exudes the Spirit of the risen Christ.

00:17:34.500 Well, the Spirit was not yet poured out because the Spirit proceeds from not only the Father,

00:17:38.720 but also the Son, who is not yet glorified and ascended to the right hand of the Father to send the Spirit,

00:17:44.720 but also the Son was not yet resurrected.

00:17:47.880 And so, the Spirit, His chief ministry in the life of believers is to guide us into all truth,

00:17:53.480 to remind us of what Jesus said, to convict us of sin and judgment, and to exude to us the ministry

00:18:00.080 of the risen Christ, who during the ministry of Jesus, his preaching, and John the Baptist,

00:18:05.740 certainly Christ was not yet risen, and he certainly wasn't yet ascended to the right

00:18:10.380 hand of the Father in order to send, to give the Holy Spirit. So what you have is a number of people

00:18:17.240 being converted under the ministry of John the Baptist, as well as Jesus and his disciples,

00:18:22.160 and yet the spirit not yet poured out.

00:18:24.640 My point is to say this,

00:18:26.460 we don't live in that age today.

00:18:29.200 We don't.

00:18:30.360 So this idea that 2000 years later,

00:18:33.040 that people are coming into Christ

00:18:35.840 and conversion and justification

00:18:37.440 by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone

00:18:39.900 in the hearing of the gospel, Romans chapter 10,

00:18:42.480 how will they believe unless they hear?

00:18:44.060 How will they hear unless someone preaches to them?

00:18:46.280 And so for us to think

00:18:47.840 that people are preaching the gospel faithfully,

00:18:50.140 people are hearing the gospel,

00:18:51.280 The Spirit is providing faith for them to believe the gospel.

00:18:55.680 They're being converted, so they're truly born again, truly regenerate Christians, and yet they don't have the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

00:19:03.360 They're waiting for this to be some kind of subsequent experience to happen at a later date, is to completely misunderstand church history.

00:19:12.700 The last thing I'll say on this real quick, I know it's a side point, but the last thing, it's important.

00:19:16.140 And the last thing I'll say is that the baptism of the Holy Spirit, Pentecost, Acts chapter

00:19:21.100 2, does not belong to our order salutis, which is the order of salvation, but rather what

00:19:27.300 it belongs to is the history of salvation.

00:19:29.660 And the difference between the history of salvation and the order of salvation is this.

00:19:33.300 The order of salvation for the Calvinist would be something like this.

00:19:36.660 It begins with the foreknowledge of God.

00:19:38.320 The foreknowledge of God is that before the foundations of the world were laid, it's his

00:19:42.120 pre-love.

00:19:42.800 And the foreknowledge of God is not that he, in eternity past, looked through the corridors of time,

00:19:47.540 determining, you know, looking in his omniscience, seeing who would choose him,

00:19:51.820 and then based off of that information, oh, because I know at a future date this person will exist and they'll choose me,

00:19:58.480 I, in eternity past, will choose them.

00:20:00.480 Well, that would still be a conditional election.

00:20:02.960 We believe in an unconditional election.

00:20:04.780 So the foreknowledge of God is simply his pre-love.

00:20:07.580 that it's an amazing thought to think that you and I are eternal in this sense, not divine.

00:20:14.520 We are not divine, but we are eternal in this sense that there is never a time that we have

00:20:18.480 not existed at least in the mind of God. And so as eternal is the essence of the triune God is

00:20:26.260 himself, so is his will. The decree of God, the will of God belongs to the essence of God.

00:20:32.820 And as old as the essence is, the ancient of days, without beginning, without start, there is never a time that God has not existed.

00:20:41.140 And so, too, there is never a time that his will has not existed.

00:20:44.940 And because his will is eternal, his will includes his salvation of each individual person that he has foreknown.

00:20:52.420 And so there was never a time that God has not known you and I, that he has not loved you and I.

00:20:56.980 So in the order of salvation, it begins with the foreknowledge of God.

00:21:00.900 It's the election of God.

00:21:02.000 There's the drawing of the Holy Spirit.

00:21:04.980 There is conversion, regeneration with faith and repentance of sin, a profession of faith.

00:21:11.680 Then we have sanctification, right?

00:21:14.280 We have perseverance.

00:21:15.760 He who endures to the end will receive the crown of life.

00:21:18.500 And then we have glorification, right?

00:21:21.680 That we're given a new body to go and to be with Christ forever on the last day.

00:21:26.520 And so my point is I'm leaving some steps out, but I'm just giving a very basic reformed version, Calvinistic version of the order of salutis, the order of salvation.

00:21:36.640 The history of salvation is different.

00:21:38.800 See, the history of salvation is God created the world.

00:21:43.120 God sent prophets and his law into the world, types and shadows, the priestly sacrificial system in Israel, all these things pointing towards the Messiah.

00:21:56.520 Then he sent the Messiah, the incarnation of Jesus, the earthly ministry of Jesus, the substitutionary death of Jesus on the cross, the resurrection of Jesus, the ascension of Jesus, the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, Pentecost.

00:22:12.120 And then we also have, of course, his glorious return that we are awaiting.

00:22:16.240 And so my point is the order of salvation is the order, the process of how God saves an individual.

00:22:22.940 It's the application of salvation to a specific sinner that God has chosen to save.

00:22:30.220 That's the order of salvation.

00:22:31.640 The order of salvation is salvation applied.

00:22:34.820 The order in which salvation is applied in saving an individual.

00:22:39.320 The history of salvation is the order in which salvation was accomplished.

00:22:44.500 Not applied, but accomplished by Christ himself.

00:22:47.360 And so Pentecost, the outpouring of the Spirit in Acts chapter 2, what Pentecostals do is they place this into the order of salvation.

00:22:55.460 People are converted, and then the order is they receive the Holy Spirit, the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

00:23:00.740 That's the next step in the order of salvation being applied to individuals.

00:23:05.280 No, Pentecost belongs to the history of salvation and what Christ has accomplished in history for our redemption.

00:23:13.220 So all that being said, one of the purposes of laying on of hands is the giving of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which was normative in the early church in the first century, especially those first few years, right after Jesus's life, death, resurrection, and ascension.

00:23:35.740 because you had a lot of people saved under the ministry of John the Baptist, as well as Jesus and

00:23:40.320 his disciples before the spirit was actually poured out. And so you have a little bit of

00:23:45.600 catch up for lack of a better term, um, where the apostles are basically, they're going back,

00:23:51.020 right? They're, they're going, they're, they're going back over the basis with all the people

00:23:55.380 who came to true saving faith and are actually converted. Um, but, but they were converted

00:24:00.960 before the spirit was poured out. And so now they're laying their hands and they're receiving

00:24:04.780 the Spirit. And in that dispensation, they are receiving the Spirit with certain sign gifts,

00:24:10.740 in most cases, such as tongues seems to be predominant or perhaps something else like

00:24:15.420 prophecy. And again, I believe that that is unique to the first century church as well,

00:24:20.380 because you don't have the closing of the canon. You don't have all the apostles' epistles

00:24:25.520 circulating around. Basically, you have the ministry of the Spirit through the apostles

00:24:30.280 and members of the Christian church in power, not just for the healing of the sick, not just for

00:24:36.960 forgiving people, encouraging words of prophecies, but to validate that Christ did indeed raise from

00:24:43.820 the dead and that this is his gospel. It's a validation of the message, which is the gospel.

00:24:50.160 So all that being said, that's the first use, or at least I don't know if we should order it,

00:24:55.460 But that's the first example that I'm providing in this episode of the laying on of hands.

00:25:00.320 Doreen, do you have any response or thoughts about that before we move on?

00:25:05.220 That's really edifying to see the distinction between the order of salvation and the history of God's plan of redemption.

00:25:15.540 Isn't that helpful?

00:25:16.560 That was a game changer for me, yeah.

00:25:19.480 Yeah.

00:25:19.740 And so I think I just want to focus on that the laying on of hands biblically, as in the context you're talking about, is about the Holy Spirit, where Reiki energy is about a universal energy, has nothing to do with God, the third person of the Holy Trinity.

00:25:41.240 Gotcha.

00:25:41.560 So Reiki is what we would call in the Old Testament strange fire, which, as we know, it was introduced into the tabernacle and resulted in the death instantly of Aaron's two sons because they didn't follow God's instructions.

00:26:02.780 We're called in Ephesians 5.11 to have nothing to do with darkness and to expose it.

00:26:08.760 And so when we do this video, it's exposing a counterfeit.

00:26:14.120 I mean, just like in Exodus, the Pharaoh's sorcerers were able to mimic quite a few of God's miracles that were coming through Moses and Aaron.

00:26:24.160 And Satan does counterfeit.

00:26:26.500 We know this.

00:26:27.760 And Reiki is a counterfeit to what you're talking about, the genuine Holy Spirit coming through the biblical laying on of hands.

00:26:37.420 and we've got to be so discerning and careful.

00:26:40.840 That's good. That's really good. You're right.

00:26:42.680 Satan, that's what he does. He counterfeits.

00:26:44.300 He's not a creator.

00:26:45.820 I think that's one of the things that we have to remember.

00:26:48.360 God alone is the creator who creates ex nihilo.

00:26:51.820 Now, you could say that human beings made in his image

00:26:54.220 are lowercase c creators.

00:26:56.520 We don't create out of nothing,

00:26:58.220 but we do take the resources that God has given us

00:27:01.960 and we do create as it were,

00:27:04.060 in a sense of taking these resources that God has provided

00:27:06.900 in the cosmos, in his creation, and making wonderful things. And we do this in God's

00:27:11.220 common grace, and Christians do this in our ministry, in our preaching of the gospel.

00:27:15.360 And so there's that lowercase c creator. But Satan is not a creator really at all. All Satan

00:27:20.320 really does is he copies. But the thing that you pointed out that's so good, Doreen, is

00:27:25.960 he never actually even copies. What he does is he copies, but he always tweaks and twists

00:27:34.040 and perverts um it's it's always it's it's um it's close to a copy as you could possibly get

00:27:41.320 while being altered just enough to where it has poison yeah to where it will harm right it's it's

00:27:48.460 genesis 3 over and over again this this false promise this carrot he dangles in front of people

00:27:54.000 that you'll get something some secret wisdom some hidden knowledge and new agers are ripe for that

00:28:00.660 temptation. I mean, when I was in the new age, I would fall for that. I had certificates from so

00:28:06.980 many different types of energy healing, not just Reiki, but I studied pranic healing, and chakra

00:28:14.600 healing, and polarity therapy, and Qigong, and you know, I was just so hungry for learning what I

00:28:23.060 thought was hidden wisdom. But there is no hidden wisdom, there is no secret. I mean, someone who's

00:28:28.820 young watching this, I want to save them a lot of time and tell them that I was saved at a new age

00:28:35.140 at age 58 or 59. And so I spent decades looking for some secret hidden wisdom, including energy

00:28:44.560 healing, and there is none. So save yourself time and money and go to the Bible. God's revealed 0.86

00:28:50.800 everything. The scrolls are open in the Bible. That's right. Amen. Yeah, I like, you know,

00:28:57.660 save yourself time, and you threw in there, you know, and money. Yeah, I spent a ton on classes.

00:29:03.880 Right. Yeah, as soon as you said the certificates, I was thinking in my mind, I was like, how much did

00:29:07.760 that cost? I bet they were pricey. So yeah. So here's another verse. This is Leviticus chapter

00:29:15.580 four, verse 15. And this one might surprise our listeners. This is another example of the Bible's

00:29:21.040 use of laying on of hands. It says, and the elders of the congregation shall lay their hands on the 0.79

00:29:26.040 head of the bull before the Lord, and the bull shall be killed before the Lord. So we always

00:29:33.000 think of the laying on of hands in a positive light, but here's a negative example. The

00:29:37.580 uniqueness of this is the elders of the congregation, the congregation being Israel, 0.67

00:29:42.820 so the people of God, they're laying their hands on the head of a bull. And what's said here,

00:29:48.680 what's being communicated is that they are, it's not just they're laying their hands on the head

00:29:52.420 of the bull. And then the verse goes on and says, and the bull is killed, but the bull is killed as

00:29:56.420 a sacrifice to atone for the sins of the people. So the significance of the laying on of hands

00:30:02.660 before the bull is sacrificed is that the elders are representative of the congregation, the people 0.82

00:30:08.300 of Israel corporately as a whole, and they are imputing the sin of the people to the bull. Now 0.79

00:30:14.880 that word impute, you know, comes in imputation. So it's, uh, you know, we believe as, as Orthodox

00:30:20.900 christians the double imputation uh meaning that you know um that christ when he hung on the cross

00:30:27.520 right the scripture says he who knew no sin became accursed he became sin um our sin was laid upon

00:30:36.020 his shoulders right so substitutionary atonement that christ he didn't just die as an example of

00:30:41.700 sacrificial love for your friends right jesus did say greater love has not no one no one else than

00:30:47.520 this, that a man would lay down his life for his friends. So the cross is an example of love.

00:30:56.460 But if it is merely an example of love, then we're all still dead in our sins and hell bound.

00:31:02.220 So Christ did not merely show a sacrificial love for others in the cross. It's not just an example.

00:31:08.440 Christ died as a substitute. That means Christ actually died in our place. And so this idea of

00:31:15.340 imputation, like even in the garden. So think about this in the garden of Gethsemane, right

00:31:19.160 before his arrest, he's praying and he's beginning to sweat drops of blood, you know, and God even

00:31:23.740 sends an angel to nourish him and to strengthen him. And what we have really that's occurring is

00:31:30.120 Jesus is already beginning to suffer under the wrath of God. He's not yet beginning to physically

00:31:36.660 suffer with, you know, with the physical torture and pain of crucifixion. But what's happening is

00:31:44.260 the sin of the world of all those who, who God has elected unto salvation to put their hope and

00:31:50.940 faith in Christ, their sin, all of their sin is being laid upon his shoulder. And he's already

00:31:56.800 beginning to experience the displeasure and the wrath of God. And that's, he's praying if there's

00:32:03.160 any other way for this cup to pass from me, you know, but not my will, but yours be done, which

00:32:07.940 does not mean just for the record that the will of God within the Trinity is divided. That's one

00:32:13.120 more thing to say. I said it earlier in passing. I don't expect anyone to catch it, but I said the

00:32:16.880 will of God belongs to the essence of God, not to the personhood of God, right? So we have one God

00:32:22.980 and therefore one divine essence. We have a triune God and therefore three persons, but God does not

00:32:29.360 have three wills, each belonging to each of the three persons. God has one will because the will

00:32:35.860 of God belongs to the essence of God. Therefore, what I mean by that is the father, the son, and

00:32:40.140 the spirit in their will are always aligned. There is no break or schism in the will of God.

00:32:46.680 Now people will point to the garden of Gethsemane when Christ says, if possible, let this cup pass

00:32:52.140 from me, but not my will, but yours be done. And people say, well, right there, the son and the

00:32:57.140 father have a different will. Well, it's a little bit complicated, but what we see going on there

00:33:01.820 is that the divine son, the son in his divine essence does not have a different will than the

00:33:08.040 Father. But what's unique is, again, will doesn't belong to person. It belongs to essence. Or here's

00:33:15.640 another word, nature. See, the Son possesses two natures. And therefore, the Son of God, unique

00:33:22.260 among the other two persons of the Trinity, Father and Spirit, the Son does, in fact, possess

00:33:27.120 two wills. He possesses the divine will, which is perfectly shared among all three persons of the

00:33:33.120 Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but he also has the human will. But the human will is not

00:33:38.820 sinful. Christ is sinless. So even in his human will, Jesus, what he demonstrates for us in his

00:33:45.280 humanity again and again and again is what perfect humanity actually looks like. What the human will

00:33:52.140 would look like when perfectly submitted in righteousness to God. So still not the divine

00:33:59.520 will, because it's the human will, so it's separate from the divine will, but it's not in rebellion to

00:34:05.040 the divine will, saying, hey, I'd love for this cup to pass, but at the end of the day, I'm in

00:34:11.280 submission to you. So all that being said, Jesus is already beginning to experience the wrath of

00:34:17.160 God, because sin is being imputed to him, accredited to him. So that's another word for

00:34:21.880 imputation, right? So we believe that the flip side of imputation is that for Christians, his 0.83

00:34:28.520 righteousness is imputed to us not by any works done unto the law so that no man may boast but

00:34:34.480 through faith by grace alone through faith alone so for those who have faith in jesus the righteousness

00:34:40.780 of christ is imputed to us or as paul says in galatians speaking of abraham he believed god and

00:34:46.900 it was accredited to him so imputation just think of like almost like a bank transaction like if i

00:34:53.640 was to, you know, to go online and I don't know, Doreen, if you use Wells Fargo and I use Wells

00:34:58.320 Fargo and I want to do an online, you know, bank transfer, I'm accrediting certain funds to your

00:35:03.980 account, you know, or vice versa. That's what it is to impute. So the double imputation is the idea

00:35:09.140 that our sin was imputed to Christ. So he who knew no sin became sin. And so he was a curse,

00:35:16.460 literally a curse not a cursed he was that also a curse but he became a curse himself hanging on

00:35:23.900 the tree and god pouring out his white hot wrath upon his head because he became sin right in that

00:35:33.200 moment jesus became the most vile heinous wicked sinner to ever walk the earth because in that

00:35:42.480 moment, he bore all the sins of all God's people in every age. And so our sin was imputed to him.

00:35:49.060 And through faith, his righteousness is imputed to us, double imputation, his righteousness to us,

00:35:53.760 our sin to him. And so all that being said in the old Testament, we see, right? Because the old

00:35:58.200 Testament shows us the gospel. It shows us types and shadows. Now we know this side of the cross

00:36:03.420 within redemptive history, again, not the order of salvation, but the history of salvation. We

00:36:08.140 as New Testament Christians, we know with much more clarity the gospel. But that's not because

00:36:13.940 the gospel was not already at work in the world. The gospel, like the will of God, because the

00:36:20.220 gospel is within the will of God, the gospel is as old as God himself. The gospel is the ancient

00:36:26.420 gospel. It was always in the mind of God to redeem a people for himself by grace alone,

00:36:31.960 through faith alone, and Christ alone. And so we see the gospel as early as the gospel really,

00:36:36.640 if we were to say it begins, and it's really hard to speak of chronological order. It's really more

00:36:42.300 of what we might call in philosophical terms, the order of logic, a logical order. But the logical

00:36:47.720 order of the gospel is this, that the gospel first began in the mind of God and the councils

00:36:52.020 of eternity. We would call this in covenantal language, the covenant of redemption. The covenant

00:36:57.820 of redemption made between the father and the son by the Holy Spirit. So between father and son by

00:37:03.860 the Holy Spirit to purchase a people for himself and to give them as a bride to the son, for the

00:37:09.660 son to give them back as a gift of glory and honor to the father. And so the covenant of redemption,

00:37:15.120 that's where the gospel first has its roots. It's eternal. It's as eternal as God is, so is the

00:37:20.800 gospel. We see it in human history first come into play in Genesis chapter three, that as God is

00:37:26.720 dealing out curses to Adam and Eve and to the serpent in the middle of God handing out curses

00:37:34.160 for sin. And it was just for God to do this. He wasn't being harsh or unfair, just for God to do

00:37:38.660 this. He told them, if you eat of the fruit, you shall surely die. And so God is simply doing what

00:37:43.140 he said would happen if they chose to disobey and Adam and Eve chose to rebel. And yet, even in the

00:37:49.080 midst of dispensing curses, our incredibly merciful God gives us the first glimpse of the gospel.

00:37:55.460 He says, I shall put enmity between you, speaking to the serpent, and the woman, and your offspring

00:38:01.800 and hers. 0.99

00:38:02.740 You shall strike his heel, but he shall crush your head.

00:38:07.420 So Adam and Eve, they knew Jesus Christ as the serpent crusher.

00:38:11.540 Abraham knew Jesus Christ as the seed, the promised seed through whom all the nations

00:38:16.860 would be blessed, right?

00:38:18.340 Skip further.

00:38:19.020 David knew him as his son who eventually would sit on his throne.

00:38:22.820 and the increase of his government, there shall be no end, right?

00:38:26.540 And then we further and further, this is progressive revelation of the gospel of Jesus Christ,

00:38:31.840 which we now in the New Testament see with immense clarity, all that back to the point

00:38:36.440 in the Old Testament, the gospel existed, but it was alluded to with types and shadows.

00:38:41.460 And one of those types and shadows is the whole priestly animal sacrificial system that

00:38:47.780 we see in Israel with the tabernacle and then the temple. And one of the practices within this

00:38:53.580 system is the practice of imputation, sin of the people being imputed into a substitute who would

00:39:01.860 take the penalty for that sin. As Roman says, the wages of sin is death. And so an animal taking

00:39:08.380 the penalty, the death, which is the wages for sin. But first, in order for the animal to actually

00:39:13.860 stand in representative of the people, the animal, before it takes the penalty, it also has to take

00:39:20.240 the sin. And so there's this act of imputation. And so one of the examples, ironically, within

00:39:26.620 biblical language of the laying on of hands is not merely just to heal, but to impute a curse of sin

00:39:34.900 that brings about death. Doreen, what do you think about that? Oh, man. I love how you have

00:39:42.660 the history of God's redemptive plan and the different covenants. And it was just beautifully

00:39:50.320 put. Thank you. Cool. Thanks. All right. So I'll just do a couple more real quick. I know I'm going

00:39:56.020 long on these, so I'll try to go quicker. But all right. So here's one. This is, let's see,

00:40:01.820 we've got 1 Timothy 5, verse 22. It says, do not be hasty in the laying on of hands,

00:40:08.500 nor take part in the sins of others. Keep yourself pure. Now, if we're not careful,

00:40:13.740 that sounds like what we just talked about, this imputation of sins. If I lay on hands to this

00:40:18.660 person, they might have some kind of spiritually negative energy. They may have some kind of

00:40:24.380 demonic or sinful or evil kind of thing going on. If I touch them, if I lay hands on them,

00:40:31.620 it might be contagious. They might spread the spiritual virus and I might contract it.

00:40:38.000 That's not the context of this particular passage.

00:40:42.120 1 Timothy 5, verse 22, is talking about the laying on of hands for ordination,

00:40:50.400 for appointing someone or installing someone into a position of spiritual authority for ministry.

00:40:55.920 And so what Paul is ultimately saying to his son of the faith, Timothy,

00:41:00.160 who's one of the purposes of Paul leaving him in the area where he is,

00:41:05.860 is to set up elders, to appoint elders in these local churches. Paul did the same thing with

00:41:10.400 Titus. And so Paul is basically warning Timothy, he says, as you look to appoint men to positions

00:41:16.660 of spiritual authority, namely eldership in local churches, don't be hasty. Take your time,

00:41:23.320 make sure that they meet the qualifications. And so we see in this biblical text that another

00:41:29.040 biblical purpose of laying on of hands is for the ordination or the installment, the elevation of

00:41:36.380 people into positions of spiritual authority. So, that would be another example.

00:41:42.180 Yeah. I mean, this is where in the New Age, and I was very guilty of this myself, is you will hear

00:41:48.960 kind of a rumor that seems to justify a New Age method that it's in the Bible,

00:41:55.760 you know that the magi are astrologers so therefore astrology is okay and and this is

00:42:01.900 just a complete example of taking a verse like you had said um about ordination out of context

00:42:09.500 and say see the bible says lay none of hands therefore and this is the slippery slope that

00:42:14.740 the new age says you know such a fallacy and heresy that if it says it in the bible it must

00:42:20.420 be okay no the bible is a newspaper a history book of what not to do when we are unsaved when

00:42:29.460 we are i mean look at the book of judges right in those days people had no king and they did

00:42:34.800 whatever they wanted and right and that that's what we have to look at the context

00:42:40.740 amen i completely agree um so here's one more text right so second timothy chapter one verse

00:42:47.180 six, it says, for this reason, Paul writing to Timothy again in his second epistle, for this

00:42:52.200 reason, I remind you to fan into flame, to nourish, to stir up, to be a good steward

00:42:58.800 of the gift of God, which is in you through the laying on of my hands. For God gave us

00:43:07.020 a spirit, not a fear, but of power and love and self-control. Therefore, do not be ashamed of

00:43:14.440 the testimony about our Lord, nor of me, his prisoner, but share in the suffering for the

00:43:19.840 gospel by the power of God. So what Paul is doing here is basically, it seems as though between

00:43:25.280 Paul's first letter to Timothy and now his second letter, Timothy has been at least tempted. If he

00:43:30.960 hasn't acted on it, he's at least been tempted, or perhaps he communicated, you know, through

00:43:35.080 letter to Paul that, that he's getting nervous. He's, he's up against some opposition, particularly

00:43:40.740 in his preaching. That's what it seems like. If we follow through with the context, God hasn't

00:43:45.080 given us a spirit of fear. Don't be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord. Share this testimony,

00:43:50.940 preach Christ and him crucified in his gospel, the remission of sins through faith alone and not by 0.97

00:43:58.660 the works of the flesh and renounce those false teachers and those Judaizers and whoever else 0.63

00:44:04.220 might be trying to pervert the gospel. And so what Paul is ultimately saying here is he's speaking 0.89

00:44:08.780 about this gift that Timothy has, and people get real creative and get real excited about what that

00:44:13.960 gift might be, I am almost positive that it was the gift of teaching, which is one of the spiritual

00:44:21.140 gifts listed in Paul's various lists of spiritual gifts, which we have a list in, well, two lists

00:44:26.980 technically in 1 Corinthians chapter 12, we have a list in Romans chapter 12, we have a list in

00:44:31.360 Ephesians chapter 4, and so we have these gifts of spiritual, a list of spiritual gifts, and I've

00:44:38.640 already made my argument for cessationism. Just for the record, the cessationist does not believe

00:44:43.040 that all the spiritual gifts have been done away with, but particularly the sign gifts that were

00:44:48.080 primarily purposed to validate the message of the gospel, which has now been validated,

00:44:54.440 but also to spread the gospel to every tribe, tongue, and nation, like tongues, being able to

00:44:58.780 speak in these other tongues of men so that the gospel could go out to the Gentiles, which God,

00:45:04.720 by his grace has accomplished. There's still more work to be done, but the gift of tongues in the

00:45:09.780 first century kind of kickstarted this mission, the great commission of going to every tribe and

00:45:14.860 tongue and nation, discipling the nations and giving the gospel into each person's tongue.

00:45:20.160 So all that being said, my point is I believe that the particular gift here, it could have been a

00:45:24.920 sign gift because this is still early on and we still see the sign gifts at work in some sense,

00:45:29.980 but here's the, here's the ironic thing. We actually see the sign gifts starting to,

00:45:34.220 to fade away. This is Paul's second letter to Timothy. Um, in his first letter to Timothy,

00:45:39.920 um, and I know my continuation is brothers and sisters will not appreciate what I'm saying right

00:45:44.480 now. So just, you, you can do earmuffs, you know, and then come back into the conversation later,

00:45:49.040 you know, but, but this is what I believe. And I believe that it is biblical and I hope that you

00:45:53.400 would hear me out and feel free to give me some pushback and I'll try to respond to some of the

00:45:56.800 comments. But my point is this. Paul's first letter to Timothy, Paul says, drink a little wine

00:46:02.660 for your stomach's sake and not only water. So Timothy has some kind of stomach ailment

00:46:07.860 and Paul prescribes wine. Now, keep in mind, this is the same apostle Paul

00:46:13.060 who people were taking articles of his clothing, his handkerchiefs, just any kind of cloth that

00:46:21.960 had touched his body. These aren't prayer cloths, right? This isn't your Joyce Meyer, you know,

00:46:26.320 she's prayed and anointed these claws with oil or perfume and prayed over them. And then we'll 0.50

00:46:32.060 mail them for, you know, $150. No, this isn't like Paul praying over claws and then people taking

00:46:38.220 them. This is literally like Paul's just doing his ministry. He's not thinking about the cloth

00:46:41.760 at all. It's just a shirt that he was wearing that somehow somebody got ahold of it and, and

00:46:46.900 it's being cut up into pieces. And here's the crazy thing, right? Cause you think, oh, that's

00:46:51.000 just crazy superstition. No, what the Bible says is that it may have been superstitious, but Paul

00:46:57.320 as an apostle of Christ was so anointed by God that these claws from Paul that he did not pray

00:47:04.400 over, that he did not anoint, but just randomly were falling into the hands of people, were

00:47:08.660 actually making sick people well. My point is this, instead of writing to Timothy, right? Because

00:47:15.900 somebody had to deliver this letter, physically deliver the letter from Paul to Timothy. So

00:47:20.360 instead of saying, drink a little wine for your stomach's sake, why don't you just wrap that letter

00:47:24.440 with one of your claws and let Timothy touch it, right? Then he could just be all better.

00:47:32.460 Why doesn't Paul do this? Because Paul's letters to Timothy are towards the end of his lifetime,

00:47:37.840 towards the end of his ministry. And I believe we're already beginning to see some of these

00:47:42.500 sign gifts fall away. Now, for the record, I still believe that the gift of healing exists.

00:47:47.060 Well, this is what I should say.

00:47:48.500 I still believe that God heals.

00:47:50.580 That's how I should say it.

00:47:51.360 I should be careful in my language.

00:47:52.660 I believe that God physically heals people in miraculous ways today.

00:47:57.720 He certainly heals people through his providence.

00:48:00.840 Every time somebody is recovered from any ailment, it is because God is doing it.

00:48:04.800 God's sovereign over all things.

00:48:06.020 So God gets glory for every healing, even if we are healed naturally.

00:48:10.640 Who created those antibodies?

00:48:12.140 and all that, you know, and in God's common grace, who gave us, you know, certain medicines

00:48:16.660 and all these things.

00:48:17.320 But I believe that God even miraculously heals people today.

00:48:22.220 However, however, the gift of healing or what we should say healers and a specific individual

00:48:32.160 who seems to have a specific anointing to heal on a regular basis and not just prayers

00:48:39.920 of petition, God, would you please heal this person? But declaration statements in the name

00:48:45.800 of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, rise up and walk. That I don't believe exists anymore. So I believe

00:48:52.180 that we still have healings and that the church, like, like James chapter five, especially elders

00:48:57.380 of the church. I just got done doing that this week. A family in our church had, had one of

00:49:02.320 their children have to go to the emergency room with an asthma attack. I immediately contacted

00:49:07.860 the family, asked if I could go. I went to the emergency room and I walked in there and I wore

00:49:13.860 my mask just long enough to get into the room and then I took it off. And I prayed for this child

00:49:20.520 that God would open his lungs and miraculously heal him. And by God's grace, I just got confirmation

00:49:25.720 today that the child is recovering remarkably and gets to go home. And so praise God, praise the

00:49:33.120 Lord. But Joel Webb is not a healer. And Joel Webb doesn't have the gift of healing. I didn't

00:49:38.320 declare anything. I petitioned and asked the Lord to heal. And sometimes he does, and sometimes he

00:49:42.820 doesn't. Now, my point is to say, with all of this, I believe that you see these kind of sign

00:49:49.200 gifts starting to fade away. So in 2 Timothy, because this is 2 Timothy, the text that I read,

00:49:53.800 2 Timothy 1, verse 6, for this reason, I remind you to fan into flame, right? So he's saying,

00:49:59.460 increase the gift. Well, Paul in 1 Timothy says, drink wine for your stomach ailment and neglects

00:50:05.960 to send him a prayer cloth. And I think there's a reason to that. And I know, you know, the 0.99

00:50:11.280 charismatic things that you're reading way too into the text. Well, I wish you would read more

00:50:15.400 into some other texts, you know, but anyways, my point is, you know, I think the sign gifts are

00:50:19.240 already starting to fade off in 1 Timothy. This is now 2 Timothy. So it's even later. So I think

00:50:23.600 these sign gifts are already, you know, fading away even more because the message has been

00:50:27.760 established. Churches have been planted. The gospel has been validated. The message is here

00:50:34.040 to stay. Now, that being said, if that's the case, if I'm right about that, even if I'm wrong about

00:50:40.840 it, it doesn't really matter for this purpose. But if I'm right about that and the gifts are

00:50:45.040 starting to fade away, the idea of Paul writing to Timothy in regards to a sign gift and saying,

00:50:51.320 fan it into flame, make it even stronger. If the sign gifts are fading and Paul's saying,

00:50:56.260 let's let's take this up a notch that doesn't seem to make sense so i think the particular gift

00:51:01.780 that paul is referencing is the gift of teaching which is a gift of the spirit it is a spiritual

00:51:07.200 gift that is still alive and well today cessationists don't believe all gifts have ceased

00:51:11.320 i'm using the gift of teaching right now so all that being said i think paul is saying fan this

00:51:15.680 into flame now here's the question um romans there's also a text in romans that says i long

00:51:20.520 to see you that I might impart to you some spiritual gift to make you strong. So there is a

00:51:25.440 debate. Is one of the purposes of laying on of hands, because that's what Paul says here in 2

00:51:30.600 Timothy 1.6, he says, for this reason, I remind you to fan into flame the gift of God, which is

00:51:36.120 in you through the laying on of my hands. Is there a biblical principle from the apostles specifically

00:51:42.000 of laying on of hands to impart a spiritual gift.

00:51:48.000 I personally would side with various reform scholars

00:51:51.500 that there's not.

00:51:53.260 That Paul, even when he speaks to the Romans,

00:51:55.880 I long to see you that I may impart to you

00:51:57.780 some spiritual gift to make you strong.

00:51:59.240 I think he's referring to doctrine.

00:52:02.260 I don't think Paul's saying,

00:52:03.440 I have this ability to lay my hands on you

00:52:08.620 and impart one spiritual gift that I possess

00:52:11.700 to you um or to be a go ahead go ahead it doesn't say that we can't speculate if it doesn't say it

00:52:20.100 in the bible then it's not god's word right and that's and and one of the reasons i would disagree

00:52:25.940 with that is because paul actually says in first corinthians 12 that the holy spirit gives gifts

00:52:32.060 the holy spirit is the one who sovereignly gives gifts to those he appoints and so the holy spirit

00:52:37.960 gives gifts. Now for you to say, well, God also heals, but he heals through men laying on their

00:52:42.380 hands and praying. Okay. I see what you did there. I understand that. So why can't a person be a

00:52:47.600 conduit of the Holy spirit laying on of hands and imparting a gift? Well, again, I don't think we

00:52:53.200 have enough biblical evidence for that. We only have a couple places, instances of the impartation

00:52:57.700 of a spiritual gift. And I think we can easily read that as the gift is I'm going to be there

00:53:02.360 and I'm going to minister among you. I'm going to preach among, I'm going to impart doctrine that

00:53:07.180 will strengthen your faith. So all the way back here, 2 Timothy 1, verse 6, I think what Paul's

00:53:13.140 saying is he's saying, fan into flame this gift, I believe is the gift of teaching or the gift of

00:53:16.980 preaching. And he says, and it's a gift that you received through the laying on of hands,

00:53:22.180 the laying on of hands. And it's a gift that you need to grow in because God hasn't made you

00:53:27.440 afraid. That really makes me think it's preaching and teaching that Timothy is tempted to shrink

00:53:34.300 back or shrinking back in a bold proclamation of the gospel because of some opposition he's

00:53:38.600 experiencing. And Paul's saying, no, you need to be bolder now than ever and fan that gift of

00:53:44.860 teaching into flame. And it's a gift that you received through the laying on of my hands.

00:53:50.480 Well, I think that that actually is a reference right back to what we saw in 1 Timothy chapter

00:53:55.460 five, when he says, don't lay hands on quickly, meaning the laying on of hands in such a way that

00:53:59.960 it symbolically is appointing someone to ministry. So I think Paul, what he's actually saying is he's

00:54:05.420 saying, you didn't receive the gift of preaching through me and impartation of that spiritual gift

00:54:10.820 through me. I think what Paul's saying is he's reminding Timothy of Timothy's own ordination,

00:54:16.820 that Paul was there ordaining Timothy with likely a congregation gathered around and perhaps some

00:54:24.480 other elders, maybe they laid on hands of Timothy along with Paul. And he's saying, we laid hands

00:54:29.760 on you and appointed you to the ministry, to the ministry of preaching the gospel, a workman,

00:54:36.060 you know, rightly dividing the word of truth with nothing to be ashamed of. So don't you dare shrink

00:54:40.300 back now. You were ordained publicly and I was there at your ordination, the one who is instituting

00:54:46.860 you into the office of an elder to preach the gospel with boldness. Don't you dare shrink back

00:54:51.560 now, but fan that gift into flame. So I think Paul, what he's referencing is the laying on of

00:54:56.460 hands once again for the appointment of spiritual authority, namely eldership. And in that

00:55:01.800 appointment, I don't think Paul's saying you received then in the moment of your ordination

00:55:07.200 ceremony, that's when you receive the gift of preaching because that's inconsistent with what

00:55:11.820 Paul says to Timothy. What does he say? Don't lay on hands quickly. First, make sure they're

00:55:16.640 qualified. And one of the qualifications is able to teach. So I think what Paul's saying is I laid

00:55:21.600 on hands and ordained you in ministry. And I ordained you in ministry because you met the

00:55:26.860 elder qualifications. And one of them is that you are a heck of a preacher. You're a preacher,

00:55:32.300 Timothy, and I wouldn't have laid my hands on you to ordain you in ministry if you weren't a preacher

00:55:37.480 and don't you stop preaching. So all that being said, some would say another purpose of laying

00:55:43.260 on hands is the impartation of spiritual gifts, which I believe doesn't actually exist as a

00:55:48.220 biblical category at all agreed and i mean this is the kind of pushback i've been getting from

00:55:55.660 people when i warn them about reiki and you know we look at the history of the man who invented it

00:56:02.520 and he was a shigendo practitioner which is japanese shamanism and they're involved with

00:56:10.380 divination mediumship i mean just a whole host of sins and then they have this energy healing

00:56:18.760 in the middle of that and the most offensive pushback i got and it was probably from three

00:56:25.100 or four people pastor joel is that that that jesus was conducting reiki sessions when he healed

00:56:32.900 people and i mean how do they how do they defend that they just say that they say well jesus was

00:56:40.200 a like a reiki master i want to cry when i hear that it just breaks my heart that people would

00:56:46.780 think that believe that and say it yeah that's that's ridiculous all right let me let me give

00:56:52.660 let me give just one more example uh so this is mark chapter 10 verse 16 mark chapter 10 verse 16

00:57:00.380 It says this, and he took them in his arms and blessed them, laying his hands on them.

00:57:09.140 All right, so if you're familiar with this passage, if I were to back up, you'll definitely

00:57:12.580 will ring a bell, starting in verse 13.

00:57:15.060 And they were bringing children to him that he might touch them.

00:57:18.900 And the disciples rebuked them.

00:57:20.620 But Jesus saw it.

00:57:22.420 He was indignant and said to them, let the children come to me.

00:57:28.240 do not hinder them for to such belongs the kingdom of God. Truly I say to you, whoever does

00:57:33.940 not receive the kingdom of God, like a child shall not enter it. Then it goes to verse 16.

00:57:38.660 And he took them in his arms and blessed them, laying his hands on them. So this is Jesus,

00:57:43.940 not just the apostles or a prophet or a priest in the old Testament. This is Christ himself

00:57:49.340 laying his hands on children. And in this context, it's not specifically sick children

00:57:55.380 that Jesus is laying his hands on them to be healed, but rather it is children that the parents

00:58:02.220 are bringing them to Jesus in order to receive a blessing. And so Jesus is blessing the children.

00:58:07.700 And so that's why often in more traditional churches, many reformed churches, some Lutheran

00:58:16.860 churches, Reformed Baptist, Reformed Presbyterian, perhaps even Anglican churches, and even in

00:58:23.700 catholic churches which i would obviously disagree with but it is a common practice i do this in my

00:58:29.400 church so i give a benediction at the end of each service we conclude our service by singing the

00:58:34.500 doxology corporately but then i finally right after the doxology i i say a pronounce a benediction

00:58:40.700 a blessing to the people lord bless you and keep you and as i do that i raise my hands up and

00:58:46.680 outward now traditionally what that comes from is is that the minister would actually usually do that

00:58:52.580 for each individual person as they were leaving the worship service, he would actually hold out

00:58:57.820 his hands and touch them and bless them. And so over the centuries, it became, you know, extending,

00:59:05.200 reaching out the minister, the vicar, reaching out his hands and giving a blessing to the people.

00:59:11.380 And so, but that being said, I would be perfectly comfortable. It doesn't mean that the minister is

00:59:16.740 Jesus, but what it does mean is that, see, there was a time in our culture where people used to

00:59:21.220 have a high view of the church. So part of the reason people are offended by it now is because

00:59:26.100 we have such a low view of the church, which is why we were perfectly content to close all of

00:59:32.100 our church doors for months and months and months over the last couple of years. But when people

00:59:37.040 had a high view of the church, one of the things that they recognized is that the minister,

00:59:42.720 that he was representative, not that he is Christ, that would be blasphemy, but that

00:59:48.840 On the Lord's Day, when the saints gathered together, the minister appointed by that church, ordained,

00:59:56.380 that as he rightly preached the word of God and rightly administered the sacraments of baptism, the Lord's Supper,

01:00:02.600 that he was representative of Christ.

01:00:04.720 That the people, when we gather to church, we are gathering to receive a word from Christ.

01:00:11.440 And so the minister would bless the people as Christ would bless the people, as representative.

01:00:16.180 It wasn't a statement of arrogance or pride or anything like that.

01:00:19.860 And so all that being said, very few churches, at least Protestant churches, sadly, still practice this.

01:00:26.660 But I believe it's a biblical practice and a good practice.

01:00:29.040 And it certainly follows the pattern of church history that the minister of God,

01:00:32.860 because on the Lord's Day when the church gathers together, he is representing Christ.

01:00:38.160 He follows Christ's example, who would lay his hands on his people and extend to them

01:00:45.700 a blessing.

01:00:46.580 And so all that being said, that's another purpose of the laying on of hands that we

01:00:51.040 see Jesus' model, and you might even see your pastor, your minister model on the Lord's

01:00:56.080 day is to extend a blessing.

01:00:58.840 Go ahead.

01:00:59.180 That's so interesting because we're Reformed Baptists, and my husband was always wondering

01:01:04.220 why our pastor would raise his hand at the end of the service

01:01:07.920 when he said the benediction, reading scripture.

01:01:11.540 That's what it's from.

01:01:12.760 So it's from the history.

01:01:13.820 Oh, he'll love hearing that.

01:01:15.540 Yep.

01:01:15.940 R.C. Sproul's got a great teaching.

01:01:17.520 I can't remember the name of it.

01:01:18.820 So, you know, and finding a specific teaching is like finding a needle in a haystack.

01:01:23.520 I mean, R.C. Sproul, just so many teachings.

01:01:27.400 So prolific, yeah.

01:01:28.000 You know, it's not like finding a needle in a haystack

01:01:30.080 because Ligonier actually has a pretty good search engine.

01:01:32.140 So anyways, I highly recommend Ligonier and R.C. Sproul is one of my favorites.

01:01:35.740 And he, I think I first learned that from him and then I read up on it a little bit more.

01:01:40.640 But R.C. Sproul, I remember he has a teaching where I think it's on Renewing Your Mind,

01:01:44.440 the podcast that he has where he talks about the minister of God,

01:01:47.600 extending his hands and blessing the people of God.

01:01:50.960 So anyways, I got to give R.C. Sproul credit for that.

01:01:53.640 So that's, so what we've seen now is that, all right, so I've gone through,

01:01:57.020 I did this on purpose.

01:01:57.880 I wanted to show there's multiple different reasons for the practice of the laying on of hands throughout Scripture.

01:02:04.600 And notice, we haven't even gotten to healing yet.

01:02:08.600 And my reason for doing that is to say, to truncate all of the biblical testimony to laying on of hands and it making sick people better.

01:02:22.420 Okay, there is a precedence for that in Scripture.

01:02:24.980 But there's also laying on of hands to impute sin, to curse.

01:02:32.020 There's laying on of hands to give a blessing to those who are physically healthy, like children.

01:02:37.580 There is the laying on of hands for the appointment of ministry to set someone apart for the work of the gospel.

01:02:43.840 I don't have time to look at other texts, but there's another text where the laying on of hands,

01:02:47.880 the Bible uses that exact phrase, the laying on of hands, and it means to beat someone up,

01:02:53.040 to physically assault them, you know? And so there's the laying on of hands that like,

01:02:57.720 like, I hope they don't lay hands on me. And, you know, we always make a joke about that,

01:03:01.480 but they're actually, that joke actually comes from an actual verse in the Bible that talks about

01:03:05.180 laying on of hands that the person was assaulted, that they were physically beat up. So there's a

01:03:10.720 laying on of hands that imputes sin, that curses someone spiritually. There's a laying on of hands

01:03:15.100 that actually harms and beats someone up physically. There's a laying on of hands that

01:03:18.840 blesses someone spiritually. There's a laying on of hands that appoints someone in an ordination

01:03:23.180 ceremony for a position of spiritual authority and public ministry. There's a laying on of hands

01:03:29.420 in all these different ways. And so to pretend as though the laying on of hands always in biblical

01:03:35.540 terms is a reference to physical healing was to just not read the Bible. It's to cherry pick.

01:03:43.640 Yeah. And I mean, and it's definitely not Reiki, which was discovered in 1930.

01:03:48.840 So, I mean, the Bible is thousands of years old.

01:03:53.020 I mean, one of the things I just want to say as we're closing is that people get hooked and addicted to the New Age because it seems to work.

01:04:01.980 Again, Satan's counterfeiting.

01:04:04.440 And Justin Peters, who, as you know, he was born with cerebral palsy, and he spent a lot of years going to faith healers trying to get healed, and none of it worked.

01:04:15.280 And he ended up doing his dissertation or his thesis at Southern Baptist Seminary on how faith healers are bogus, you know, Benny Hinn and all these different ones that he went to.

01:04:31.220 And he told me something that I just, it just so makes sense.

01:04:35.660 because i asked him i said how come some people seem to be healed through going to a shaman or 0.82

01:04:42.200 a reiki master or a christian science practitioner which are clearly apostate heretics and he said

01:04:48.620 that it's nuanced that demons sometimes inflict injury or disease on people and then lead them

01:04:57.620 to the false practitioner and then they they relieve that person of the oppression and it

01:05:04.400 it looks like a healing, but then that person attributes their healing to the false practitioner

01:05:10.200 and they get hooked into that system. And that makes so much sense. Cause you know,

01:05:14.660 I was raised in science and we saw healings constantly in my family, myself at church,

01:05:21.240 we'd have the testimony meetings every Wednesday and people were healed of everything from

01:05:26.580 broken bones to cancer. And I grew up with that. So I thought Mary Baker Eddy had discovered the

01:05:32.040 truth and i know people feel the same way about reiki and energy healing but it's counterfeit

01:05:37.120 just because something seems to work does not mean it's from god that was what i had to get

01:05:41.620 through my head when i was saved it it seems to work but look at where it's pointing you is it

01:05:48.280 pointing you to jesus is it pointing you to scripture if it is you know it's like john said

01:05:53.960 in first john 4 we have to test the spirit if it's if it's reiki it's pointing you to new age

01:05:59.880 circles. It's pointing you to seances and mediumship and divination and yoga and things

01:06:05.020 that are not scriptural. We have to be so careful. Amen. You're absolutely right. So let's go ahead

01:06:11.200 and end now by me. I just want to ask you a couple of questions. So one of the questions that I have

01:06:15.060 is in the practice of Reiki healing, is there a petition? Meaning does the Reiki master, as they're

01:06:23.680 laying on their hands, do they speak out loud? And when they speak out loud, do they speak to

01:06:30.900 Jesus? Do they speak to God? And is in their speaking, is there a declaration of healing,

01:06:38.300 or is there a humble request, a petition? Do they ask, are they laying on hands and asking God

01:06:45.520 to heal? That's one of my questions. Yeah. In traditional Reiki, you're a conduit.

01:06:52.460 you're a mediator of the universal energy through these symbols you've been attuned to now you're

01:06:58.640 going to hear from professing christians who say that they're blending the two that they're

01:07:04.140 they're channeling universal energy while talking to jesus but i can tell them that that's not the

01:07:10.380 real jesus the the real jesus says if you love me you will obey my commandments and the commandments

01:07:16.260 go back to the moral law to love god with all of our heart and and that doesn't mean love in the

01:07:22.360 sense of inclusiveness and everything goes and just leave me alone while I sin in peace.

01:07:27.140 That's love, meaning trusting God, obeying God. And in looking at the Ten Commandments,

01:07:34.300 we should have no other gods before him and no idols. And Reiki is idolatry. And that's the

01:07:40.280 crux of New Age heresy is it's having another god.

01:07:46.120 You're absolutely right. Yeah. So the reason why I ask that question is because

01:07:50.000 it goes back to kind of, you know, what I was trying to say earlier about sign gifts and these

01:07:54.360 kinds of things. And so I know that, you know, for, you know, at least a portion of your audience

01:07:59.380 and mine that, you know, I'm going to lose people here, but I'm still going to do my best. And I'm

01:08:03.960 just humbly asking that, you know, that our audience who disagrees with me over the sign

01:08:07.700 gifts of the Holy Spirit, whether they've ceased or continued, if you would just, well, if you just

01:08:13.200 have enough humility to consider it. And, and I promise you, if you're like, well, it's a two-way

01:08:17.800 Street. Why don't you have enough humility to consider it? Well, I have, and I still do.

01:08:23.060 I am a cessationist. I'm convinced of that position. And yet I have a few close friends

01:08:28.640 who are continuationists. One of them I just spoke to for an hour on the phone yesterday,

01:08:33.220 who I allowed to sit there and make arguments for continuationism. And we have this kind of

01:08:40.260 conversation once every few months. And I hear his arguments out, and some of them are decent

01:08:44.720 arguments. I ultimately disagree with them. I have my position, but I'm not a closed book.

01:08:50.420 I want to believe the scripture, period, wherever it leads. I'm not afraid of ending up in this

01:08:57.480 position or that position. What I'm afraid of is not obeying the Bible. That's my greatest fear.

01:09:04.260 I want to follow the Bible wherever it leads. I believe that the Bible leads to cessationism.

01:09:09.400 I really do, and that's why I'm here. But all that being said, I hope that you would have that same 1.00

01:09:14.280 kind of humility and hear me out. If the sign gifts were passing away, then we have prophecy,

01:09:22.400 we have tongues, we have interpretation of tongues, those being some of the chief ones.

01:09:26.460 There are still gifts that continue to this day in this church age of teaching and gifts of helps

01:09:31.900 and administrations and encouragement and these kinds of things. And I do believe that healing

01:09:36.860 has continued, but a gift of healing or a healer, I don't believe has continued. And I believe that

01:09:44.260 we find that James chapter five, I think would be an example. And all the examples I've already,

01:09:49.180 you know, not that I gave a ton of examples, but I did give a lot of exegesis of the first Timothy

01:09:54.660 and second Timothy, drink a little wine and those kinds of things. And so with all that, bearing all

01:09:59.120 that in mind, I believe that healing today is primarily a corporate, it's always been a sovereign

01:10:06.820 work of God. But as it pertains to man or any conduit, which I, even that word makes me a little

01:10:13.840 uneasy, but to use that word, um, I believe that the conduit, if anything is, it's a corporate

01:10:19.160 conduit, meaning, um, that I think God does miraculously heal today in response to the

01:10:25.680 prayers of the church. It is not, uh, bring them to the individual healer as they have their

01:10:33.220 healing crusade. You know, the Catherine Coleman or the Benny Hinn or the whatever. Um, I think

01:10:38.920 it's no take them to the elders of the church and it's not because the elders of the church right

01:10:44.440 it's the same thing i said earlier about why the minister raises his hand and pronounces the

01:10:48.680 blessing and the benediction to the people why because he's the man of god he's the anointed no

01:10:53.920 no it's nothing inherent to the minister not his righteousness not his holiness and not his

01:11:00.520 supernatural power it's because he's representing christ and i think when we take when we take the

01:11:06.360 sick to the elders of the church, it's not just that they represent Christ, but they also stand

01:11:11.500 in as representative of the body. So they represent Christ in one sense, who is the head,

01:11:16.640 but they're also in that moment standing in representative of the body of Christ,

01:11:20.860 the church, the congregation. And so when we pray for the sick today, number one,

01:11:26.480 it's not declarations. It's not rise up. In the name of Jesus Christ, rise up and walk. It's not.

01:11:32.320 We see that modeled by the apostles.

01:11:34.340 There's only a very small.

01:11:36.100 We know in the New Testament that there were many people in the church beyond the apostles who had signed gifts that had the ability to prophesy.

01:11:44.380 Like Philip had four daughters who prophesied.

01:11:46.700 Right.

01:11:46.860 You got to do something with that.

01:11:48.200 You know, and so there's certainly a biblical text for that.

01:11:50.580 But we don't have biblical texts, even in the first century, that talks about a whole dozens and dozens of Christians outside of the apostles healing the sick with declarations.

01:12:05.820 I think we're meant to assume that that was unique.

01:12:09.420 And so what we have instead is petitions.

01:12:12.140 So number one, you don't just have somebody rubbing their shoulder and moving energy through them.

01:12:19.380 You don't have that.

01:12:19.940 you always have words. You always have words. And this is why you have words. Um, you have words

01:12:26.140 so that the people will turn and give God the glory that they'll turn, that they'll hear the

01:12:32.640 word. How will they believe unless they hear, right? So it's not just what they see in, in a

01:12:37.960 miraculous healing, but it's what they hear, right? It's just like, um, Peter and John is a,

01:12:43.040 you know, they're going to the gate called beautiful and there's a man there who's lame

01:12:46.440 since birth and and and you know silver and gold have we none but what we do have right and they

01:12:52.720 declare as apostles in the name of jesus christ of nazareth rise up and walk and and all of a sudden

01:12:58.540 the people are looking to them you know as as though they were some kind of deity and they say

01:13:03.640 hey men you know men of israel don't look to us like this as though in our own power we made this

01:13:08.820 but but simply jesus who you crucify and so they turn and and and even in their declaration they

01:13:15.700 say, they don't say, rise up and walk. No, they say in the name of Jesus of Nazareth. So my point

01:13:24.000 is in healing today, I don't believe we have healers today. And I don't believe that we make

01:13:28.760 declarations of healing and gifts of healing. But I do think we still have a God who heals.

01:13:34.020 I think he primarily heals through the corporate prayers of his church, elders representing both

01:13:41.260 Christ and the church and through humble petitions, requesting the Lord, asking him for healing,

01:13:47.860 knowing that he may heal, he may not. And in this always, it's with words. It's never this

01:13:54.060 silent, you know, rubbing of the shoulder or something. It's always with words and the words

01:13:59.460 should be humble. They should be a request and they should always be saturated with the name

01:14:06.640 of Jesus. This is about Jesus. I'm calling out to Jesus. I'm asking Jesus, you alone are the one

01:14:13.560 who has the power to heal. And so that would be my question is what Reiki healer, right? So even

01:14:19.020 those who are saying, oh yeah, well, Reiki is Christian. Reiki is the power of Jesus. Jesus was

01:14:23.060 the first Reiki healer, blah, blah, blah, all the stuff that you've shared during. My question is,

01:14:26.640 okay, then go find a Reiki healer. Go find a Reiki healer who heals with a team, right? Like a team

01:14:32.900 of elders, multiple Christians in a church praying. So number one, he's not a one-man show.

01:14:38.480 He's got a team and he's representing others and he's using words the entire time. He's calling

01:14:44.980 out to Jesus. It's not a declaration of pride pretending to be an apostle, but rather it's a

01:14:50.360 humble petition of request. And he also leaves room for the sovereignty of God, like Shadrach,

01:14:56.300 Meshach, and Abednego. Our God can deliver us from the fire, but even if he doesn't,

01:15:00.100 you know, and saying, and here's the last one, and he doesn't take your money.

01:15:04.800 There you go. There you go. Let's talk about money real quick, because people in the New Age

01:15:10.620 are always accusing me of becoming a Christian for money, and it's ridiculous. I don't take

01:15:15.480 any donations. I don't have a Patreon account where people can donate to me. I'm basically

01:15:21.880 broke. My husband had to go get a new job. I work part-time at a job, and, you know, so the people

01:15:28.880 who give the pushback about this are the people making money off of Reiki and energy healing and

01:15:33.880 teaching. And it's threatening to them that we're saying this because we are threatening their

01:15:38.820 industry. And it just reminds me so much of Acts 19, where the silversmiths got so angry with Paul,

01:15:46.060 they wanted to kill him because people stopped buying their goddess statues, their Artemis 0.89

01:15:51.180 statues, because Paul was saying the gospel that Jesus is the one true God, that we don't need

01:15:58.380 these goddesses in fact it's blasphemy it's um it's polytheism and the you know the so he was

01:16:05.920 he was hunted and also acts 16 where paul cast the the python demon spirit out of the young

01:16:13.100 girl who was possessed and was a psychic her her um managers made a lot of money off of her psychic

01:16:20.460 readings so they got very angry with paul and so people get angry with us saying this because it

01:16:25.820 threatens their livelihood. But what I want to say to those who have a new age livelihood,

01:16:30.720 trust in God's provision, repent. That's what I had to do is just repent. My livelihood was in

01:16:37.360 the new age. I was really concerned. What am I going to do? I have all these employees. I've

01:16:42.500 got my family, this ranch I have to deal with. I gave it all to God. I just repented and said,

01:16:48.560 your will, not my will. And God's provided not riches, but needs. And that's what he promises

01:16:54.820 for those who sincerely believe.

01:16:57.920 Amen.

01:16:58.700 That is, that's so good.

01:17:00.480 That's a great note to end on.

01:17:02.200 All right.

01:17:02.440 Well, Doreen, let us know, our listeners, how can they follow you?

01:17:06.700 How can they be praying for you?

01:17:08.380 Because you're right.

01:17:10.720 You're not in it.

01:17:11.600 If you were in it for the money, you would have stayed right where you were.

01:17:14.320 And so I want our listeners to be able to support you, to pray for you.

01:17:18.680 How can they follow you, keep up with you and be a blessing to you?

01:17:22.980 Oh, thanks.

01:17:23.480 Well, don't follow me. 0.54

01:17:24.320 follow Jesus. Um, but, but you can see my posts. Instagram is the easiest one. That's where I'm

01:17:30.060 most active. You can send me a message there. Um, I'm the only one that read and replies to

01:17:35.440 messages and I I'm kind of busy. So it takes me a while. Sometimes I do my best to keep an eye out

01:17:41.920 for those who are newly coming out of the new age so I can support you. And, um, and if you're nice,

01:17:48.240 if you write me a nice letter, even if you disagree with me, I will read and respond.

01:17:51.880 But if you write me a mean letter, I can't take it.

01:17:54.620 So I don't respond to mean letters.

01:17:57.620 And how you can pray for me.

01:17:59.500 My family is still new age, and it breaks my heart every single minute of every day that they shun me.

01:18:07.540 They won't talk to me.

01:18:08.680 They think that I'm not loving because I'm calling out the new age.

01:18:13.600 So if you could just pray for my family's salvation.

01:18:16.980 Pray Christian prayers. 0.99

01:18:18.140 I don't want any Reiki for my family.

01:18:19.840 And I just please, please pray biblically for my family to to come to know Jesus, the real Jesus, and to repent and be saved.

01:18:30.280 Amen. Great. All right, Doreen, thank you so much for coming on the show.

01:18:34.680 Thank you, Pastor Joel. It's always an honor to be with you. God bless you in your ministry.

01:18:39.600 As a special thank you for your gift of any amount, we'll be happy to send you a free digital book from our store.

01:18:45.060 To access this offer, visit rightresponseministries.com slash offer.

01:18:50.280 We highly recommend Pastor Joel's book, Am I Truly Saved?

01:18:53.960 If you or someone you know has wrestled with doubts about the love of God,

01:18:57.760 this would be a great resource.

01:18:59.740 As a reminder, to get this offer, go to rightresponseministries.com slash offer.

01:19:04.440 And thank you for your generous support.

The NXR Podcast - November 17, 2021

THEOLOGY APPLIED - Reiki, Energy Healing, & “Laying On Of Hands”

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