The NXR Podcast - February 15, 2022


THEOLOGY APPLIED - Russell Moore’s Nationalism, Jordan Peterson’s Hermeneutic, & Christians Fleeing California

Topics
registration and conference preparation Christian nationalism Christians fleeing California
Hosted by
Joel Webbon Harrison Smith Antonio Griffith Dale Partridge Wewsley Todd Calvin Robinson
Mentioned
Russell Moore John Harris Doug Wilson Jordan Peterson Testament Israel Stephen Decatur Megan Basham Gavin Newsom Pastor Doug Ed Stetzer Aaron Wren Trump Paul
THEOLOGY APPLIED - How To Decide When To Leave The SBC THEOLOGY APPLIED - Wokeness Is On Its Last Leg, Now What？

Episode Stats


Length

52 minutes

Words per minute

168.65

Word count

8,909

Sentence count

263

Harmful content

Toxicity

3

sentences flagged

Hate speech

21

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

Join in as Pastor A.D. Robles, John R. Harris, and John W. Harris record a multi-part series in our studio in Austin, Texas on March 13th and 14th, 2019.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Topics generated with Qwen2.5-3B-Instruct.
Hosts, guests, and mentioned names generated with spaCy (en_core_web_sm), reconciled against Wikidata.
00:00:00 Real quick, before we get started, I've got some exciting news to announce.
00:00:04 I've got A.D. Robles and John Harris from Conversations That Matter coming out
00:00:09 for a whole weekend in the month of March to join up on a Friday. We're going to come in
00:00:15 our studio right here, and all three of us are going to record a multiple-part series
00:00:19 on some of the subject matter that you guys have requested that the three of us address
00:00:25 through our YouTube comments. Some of you have emailed. We're taking that into consideration
00:00:29 as well. But we're definitely looking at the YouTube comments. We've asked you guys, hey,
00:00:33 what are topics you want us to address? And so the three of us are going to record for several hours
00:00:38 a multiple part series in our studio right here in the great state of Texas in March. And we're
00:00:44 going to be releasing that content over the coming weeks. Now, here's the other thing. That's on the
00:00:49 Friday that they're going to be in town. But on the Saturday, we're going to hold a one-day
00:00:53 conference. Now that's going to be March 12th, Saturday, March 12th. It's going to be a one-day
00:00:59 conference where AD is going to do a session on practical obedient defiance, how to resist civil
00:01:06 tyranny, how to resist medical tyranny, and how to do this in practical on the ground ways as
00:01:12 households, as head of households, husbands, fathers. How do we resist as a family against
00:01:18 the cancel culture and the tyranny and persecution that's coming to America? That's going to be
00:01:23 ad session i'm going to do a session called debunking the boogeyman of christian nationalism
00:01:29 i'm going to kind of reveal the fallacies of the gospel coalition and all these kind of things oh
00:01:34 christian nationalists the greatest threat to america i'm going to show why that's not biblical
00:01:38 and how that's not actually happening and the irony that if anything russell moore he's the
00:01:44 type who's actually the christian nationalist in a negative sense and then john harris is going to
00:01:48 do a session on social justice versus biblical justice. Again, that's social justice and how
00:01:54 it's completely opposed, completely opposite to biblical justice. And lastly, the three of us are
00:02:01 going to come up all together and spend a whole hour doing Q&A. We're going to take live questions
00:02:06 from the audience and address those questions. It's going to be a great time. You'll get to meet
00:02:11 John Harris. You'll get to meet A.D. Robles. You'll get to meet myself. So if you're anywhere in the
00:02:15 area in williamson county or if you're in austin texas or you're north of williamson county or to
00:02:21 the west or to the east and you want to come out and join us for that one day conference
00:02:25 saturday march 12th come on out it's free registration we're going to have some refreshments
00:02:31 free everything's free so we're paying out of pocket as a ministry to make this happen
00:02:36 we're covering the cost to fly out john and ad to put them up in a hotel so you don't have to pay
00:02:41 a dime to show up and attend this. However, for anybody who wants to be generous and help us
00:02:47 offset these costs, you can do so donating towards this conference by simply going to
00:02:52 rightresponseministries.com slash donate. Again, that's rightresponseministries.com slash donate.
00:02:59 Now to find the address, physical location for the conference and exact times for each of the
00:03:04 sessions for that Saturday, March 12th, again, go to our website, rightresponseministries.com,
00:03:10 click on the menu button at the top and scroll down and you'll find conference click on conference
00:03:16 you'll find all the details that you need and one of the details there that we need is although
00:03:21 registration is free there's a form at the bottom that says rsvp we would really appreciate if you
00:03:28 could let us know whether or not you're coming and how many people you plan on bringing with you
00:03:33 right if you've got 10 kids god bless you for having 10 kids but we would like to know that
00:03:38 you're bringing yourself, your wife, and your 10 kids. Please come, but please let us know so that
00:03:43 we can adequately prepare for this. The last thing that I'll say is that that Sunday, which would be
00:03:48 March 13th, for anybody who wants to join our church, Covenant Bible Church, John Harris will
00:03:55 stay in town. He's going to linger and he's going to preach that Sunday morning at our Lord's Day
00:03:59 worship service. That's 9 30 a.m. on Sunday, March 13th at my church that I pastor. Again, that's
00:04:06 Covenant Bible Church. We're in Georgetown, Texas. That's the Williamson County area. So if you're in
00:04:12 Williamson County or you're in North Austin or you're somewhere nearby and you don't have a church
00:04:17 home, if you've got a church home, go there. But if you don't have a church home, you're looking
00:04:21 for a church that has courage, that has biblical fidelity, and you want to hear John Harris preach
00:04:26 a dynamite sermon from the Word of God, then come and join us again Sunday, March 13th. You can find
00:04:32 details or directions to join our church that Sunday morning at covenantbible.org. Our website
00:04:40 for Covenant Bible Church is covenantbible.org. Without further ado, let's go ahead and jump into
00:04:46 our episode. You're listening to another episode of Theology Applied. In this episode, I was very
00:04:51 privileged to have as a special guest, returning now, I believe for the third time, Pastor Doug
00:04:56 Wilson, the pastor of Christ Church in Moscow, Idaho. Now, the topic of our conversation,
00:05:01 predominantly was surrounding Christian nationalism.
00:05:06 And so if we titled this episode or this talk,
00:05:08 it would probably be debunking the boogeyman 0.94
00:05:11 of Christian nationalism.
00:05:13 We address guys like Ed Stetzer.
00:05:14 We address guys like Russell Moore. 0.93
00:05:16 We address all these evangelicals,
00:05:18 these progressive, liberal evangelicals
00:05:21 who really are using Christian nationalism
00:05:23 as a derogatory term to gaslight
00:05:26 actual conservative evangelicals with so much guilt, right?
00:05:31 to lay upon them so much guilt that they can't vote for policies anymore.
00:05:36 They're dissuaded from actually bringing their Christian faith
00:05:40 and their biblical faith into the voting booth with them.
00:05:42 So Christian nationalism was the first topic.
00:05:45 But then we also spent probably about 10, 15 minutes
00:05:48 talking about Dr. Jordan Peterson, his view of Scripture,
00:05:52 and what has to happen, what he's getting right,
00:05:54 but also what he's missing and what has to happen
00:05:57 for him ultimately to come to salvation.
00:06:00 And then lastly, we talked about places like New York, places like California, blue states
00:06:05 where governors are running their residents out of their states and to places like Moscow where
00:06:11 Doug is, places like where I'm at and the church that I pastor, Covenant Bible Church in Georgetown,
00:06:17 Texas. And so we talked about why people are fleeing and how to make that choice for people
00:06:22 who are still in New York or still in California and who are Christians. How do you weigh when
00:06:28 it's time to leave. And one of the concepts that we discuss is this, how do we properly weigh how
00:06:35 much fighting we're doing versus by our mere presence in a blue state, how much funding we're
00:06:40 doing? Are we fighting more than we're funding? So packed episode, you guys are going to love it.
00:06:45 Here we go. Applying God's word to every aspect of life. This is Theology Applied.
00:06:52 All right, welcome to another episode of Theology Applied, and I'm very privileged
00:07:01 to have as a special guest, returning now, I believe, for the third time, Pastor Doug Wilson
00:07:05 in Moscow, Idaho, pastor of Christ Church, and I guess founder of Canon Press. Doug,
00:07:12 thanks for coming on. Thanks for having me. Absolutely. All right, so real quick, before
00:07:17 we recorded, Doug and I were talking about, you know, well, I kind of threw out for him
00:07:22 three options of topics and the one he liked the best was Christian nationalism. And so we've got
00:07:27 an upcoming conference as we've been announcing here where I pastor north of Austin, Williamson
00:07:33 County, Texas. That's going to be March 12th and 13th, a Saturday and Sunday where I've got John
00:07:38 Harris and I've got A.D. Robles coming out. And one of the topics that I'm going to talk about is
00:07:43 I've titled the talk, the lecture, Debunking the Boogeyman of Christian Nationalism. So Pastor
00:07:51 what do you think about that title what do you think about that topic and and what do you think
00:07:54 just in general about christian nationalism yeah so i think it's important for you to do all the
00:08:00 debunking you can because um the attack being made on conservatives who are saying uh waking up and
00:08:08 saying hey about what's being done to dismantle all our um social structures um is that is to
00:08:17 accuse us of being christian nationalists right and that's that's their code word for fascist
00:08:24 basically um so you're putting you're putting your national allegiance before christ you're a
00:08:33 you're a nationalist uh right or wrong uh your nation is the is the ultimate um allegiance that
00:08:42 you have which is basically uh slander by implication okay because a nation is uh there
00:08:51 are good nations there are mediocre nations there are wicked nations so when you say it's like the 0.81
00:08:58 term the patriarchy um well the devil's a patriarch you know he's he's the father of lies 0.97
00:09:07 So there's a there's a diabolical patriarchy. There's a patriarchy that we're against because it's the devils. Right. But then we serve we serve God the father. That too is a patriarchy. You can't just take a structural term rule rule by fathers and use it as a term of approbation or disapprobation. 0.98
00:09:30 It's the same with nation nations or nationalism. So you've,
00:09:35 you've got there. There are only three possible structures, uh, given,
00:09:39 given the 7 billion people that we have on the world today,
00:09:42 we can organize ourselves, uh, by tribe.
00:09:47 There's tribalism, there's nationalism,
00:09:51 and there's globalism. Those, those are your only three options, right?
00:09:56 okay it's either localism tribalism or it's nationalism or it's internationalism
00:10:05 okay now if you ask the average christian would you rather have your life organized by people
00:10:14 on the other side of the world in davos switzerland at in secret meetings by people
00:10:21 who fly there in private jets or would you rather have your life ordered by people that you
00:10:28 interact with that you know or that you have some hand in electing right now there's a balance
00:10:34 because uh you say man i could really get behind tribalism our little you know our little tribe
00:10:41 and i i could know my leaders and i could have a hand in you know but yeah that's true if you
00:10:47 were living by yourself in a sweet little pleasant valley somewhere with no enemies in sight right
00:10:55 the problem with tribalism is incessant war between tribes so that's a yeah so that's a
00:11:07 difficulty very little stability very little stability nationalism is a structure that
00:11:14 permits stability. Now, if you are given to evil, then the nationalism is wicked. Like our current
00:11:23 national structure, the current American empire, the current nation is perpetrating wicked things. 0.91
00:11:32 We're perpetrating the carnage of abortion, the fakery of same-sex mirage, and so on. So my 0.92
00:11:40 allegiance to Christ means that I must stand against what my
00:11:44 nation is currently doing.
00:11:46 So I want to call my nation to repentance. I think it is
00:11:51 more likely that I'm going to be able to call a nation to
00:11:56 repentance than it will be that I will
00:11:59 successfully call the globalist elites to repentance.
00:12:04 I don't think I can have a voice
00:12:08 that will get to them right um and i think that if i were if if uh our nation became a failed state
00:12:16 everything fell apart and it was all localism it was all tribalism then i would i would have a
00:12:24 significant voice in my tribe but it's fragmented and my tribe is now tiny and christians ought to
00:12:35 be thinking about what structure what structure is there that would allow committed christians
00:12:41 to do the most good okay and i think i think the system of national structures
00:12:48 is a good balance of power um structure it it uh creates the the possibility of travel
00:12:58 and communication across um large distances like you and i are doing right now right
00:13:04 Um, right. We, we can, we can evangelize. So it's not, it's not to say that the nation comes before Christ, but precisely because Christ comes first, what is going to create the, the most opportunity for the gospel. Right. And I think, I think a system of, um, separate and distinct nations.
00:13:30 Mm hmm. I completely agree. Yeah. So that kind of goes along with some of my thoughts on on Christian nationalism. I think primarily it's used as a derogatory term to, you know, well, I wrote a couple of thoughts. I wrote it like this. 1.00
00:13:45 even jellyfish such as Russell Moore have weaponized the concept of Christian nationalism
00:13:50 to gaslight conservative slash biblical Christians so that they feel too guilty to actually vote for
00:13:56 conservative political candidates. And so I think, you know, the ways that it's used is one of two
00:14:03 ways or perhaps both, one of them being exactly what you just said in a word to summarize idolatry,
00:14:09 right? So that, you know, prioritizing national identity above spiritual identity. For the
00:14:14 Christian, our first identity is in Christ. But that doesn't mean that the Lord hasn't assigned
00:14:18 to a secondary identities. And so we would say, yeah, I'm in Christ, but I have, that's my primary
00:14:23 identity, but I have these secondary identities that do absolutely dictate for me what my
00:14:29 allegiance to Christ looks like in day-to-day practical obedience. So I am a Christian first
00:14:34 and foremost, but I'm also a man. So gender would be a secondary identity. The Bible says 0.98
00:14:40 different things for men than it says for women, husband versus wife, father versus mother. And so
00:14:48 there are all these secondary identities. And I think, you know, national citizenship would be
00:14:52 one of them. And I'm curious your thoughts on this, but I feel like one of the things that
00:14:57 liberal progressive, you know, Christians often do with the boogeyman of Christian nationalism 0.70
00:15:04 is they actually acknowledge this category of secondary identities, but they misorder it. 0.74
00:15:10 they misprioritize and so what they'll do is they'll emphasize for instance they'll emphasize
00:15:15 skin pigmentation um ethnicity over gender right so black and white really big deal male and female
00:15:23 not not such a big deal you know um and then and then on the you know national citizenship level
00:15:28 um they'll they'll do you know a member of the human race right that would be the globalism
00:15:33 option big deal a member of united states of america not big deal or on the flip side of it
00:15:38 like what you're describing as as localism or tribalism to use specifically a city as an example
00:15:43 i think aaron wren said this um a few months ago but i thought it was very insightful how often do
00:15:49 you hear pastors say our church is in and for the city right jeremiah i believe it's 27 you know so
00:15:55 in and for the city we're in and for seattle but if a pastor had the audacity to say we're a church
00:15:59 in and for america he would be blasted you know and and so then it comes down to well biblically
00:16:05 where's the emphasis placed? Like cities are biblical. The Bible talks about cities and,
00:16:10 and, you know, and there, I don't think it's inherently wrong to identify with your city,
00:16:15 that we love our city. As long as that's not idolatrous where we're loving our city,
00:16:20 you know, at the expense or, or, or more than we're loving Christ. But why can't we apply that
00:16:25 to nations? Because if anything, it seems like there's more of a biblical premises
00:16:28 for nations in terms of the exact boundaries and borders of nations being sovereignly appointed
00:16:34 by God. That's Acts chapter 17, I believe verse 26. And not just their boundaries, but the times,
00:16:40 empires, God set sovereignly. This empire is going to last for 250 years to the date. In the same way
00:16:46 he's numbered our days and the hairs on our head as individual people, he's done that with nations.
00:16:51 So we know nations exist. God's given them, it seems, the sovereign right to exist. He's limited
00:16:56 their geographic boundaries. So the size, but also the time, the scope of nations. So all of that is
00:17:04 painfully clear in scripture. So if it's okay to identify with the city, so long as it's not
00:17:09 idolatrous, identifying with our city more than our identity in Christ, but to love our city,
00:17:14 identify with our city, why can't we be a church in and for America? I personally would just opt
00:17:20 for, let's just be a church in Christ and for Christ, which will benefit both cities and nations.
00:17:25 But if we're going to be in and for the city, why can't we be in and for the nation? What do you
00:17:29 think about that yeah that's absolutely correct a well-moderated patriotism is a function of
00:17:37 obedience to the fifth commandment either honor your father and mother that's good okay and so
00:17:43 if you go to the westminster larger catechism and ask uh what's what are what are the implications
00:17:49 of the command to honor your father and mother um uh love for your people is is one of those
00:17:59 things now of course i should love my mom i should honor my father and i should do it without
00:18:05 idolatry that that is a given yes do it without idolatry um and i do the same thing with my my
00:18:13 nation my people i have an affection because i'm not a block of wood i have an affection for the
00:18:19 places where i grew up for my people for the people i interact with uh that is not only okay
00:18:25 not only is it lawful but i think it's unlawful to not have it right you're you're supposed to
00:18:32 have natural question but i would want to insert one other thing uh in this that is uh sometimes
00:18:38 missed so we agree that our ultimate allegiance is to christ our ultimate allegiance is to the
00:18:44 ultimate truth the truth about god man sin salvation revelation okay but after that after
00:18:52 our allegiance to the truth capital t truth we also have an allegiance to what is true
00:18:58 in the world okay if there's a dispute somewhere let's say between canadian truckers and the
00:19:07 canadian government right so why why do i have such a an affectionate response to what the
00:19:16 Canadian truckers are doing if I'm a Christian nationalist right right that's a different
00:19:22 that's a different nation well it's because they are facing so if I love my mom then that
00:19:30 that doesn't turn me into a bigot that means that I understand it better if someone else loves his
00:19:37 mom right so I'm I'm supposed to love my country and I understand why a Canadian is supposed to
00:19:45 love his right and the best way to love my country is to stand for the truth and not elect liars
00:19:52 and when you have or not support liars once elected and if the canadian truckers are standing
00:20:00 up against the lie which they are so they're standing up against the lie i can applaud that
00:20:06 and i can applaud that because i can recognize his obedience to the fifth commandment as i
00:20:13 recognize my obedience to the fifth commandment even though we have different moms right so
00:20:18 you're supporting canada uh in large part because of your your national sense of being a citizen
00:20:25 here in the united states of america and your obligation to obey god's commands as as it as
00:20:31 it fleshes out through your your secondary identity of citizen right and if we had let's say we have
00:20:36 the pandemic uh the whole panic porn over the covid thing is an international is an international
00:20:44 scandal right it's an international it's an international uh hooha international panic
00:20:50 so the canadians and we and the english they're all we're all facing the same basic setup and i
00:20:58 have more in common when if our leaders are lying to us and their leaders are lying to them and the
00:21:05 leader i have more in common with the truth tellers in those respective countries than i have
00:21:15 with liars in my own right so it's uh stephen decatur uh an early naval hero
00:21:23 was stephen decatur and he was famous for saying uh my country right or wrong but it was a toast
00:21:30 that he gave it a dinner party of some sort of event but the full toast was my country may she
00:21:37 always be right but my country right or wrong and so he wasn't saying i'll follow my country and do
00:21:43 anything in the name of my country right it was a it was a hopeful wish that your country would
00:21:49 always be uh in the right but you're connected to your country right or wrong so i'm i have an
00:21:55 allegiance to my country and an affection for my country and a responsibility to confront lies
00:22:03 live not by lies in my country so uh so loving america means opposing americans
00:22:12 yep that's that's great so loving america secondary identity or national identity primary
00:22:18 being in christ and what does it look like to love americans which ultimately is just
00:22:23 it's just a specific category of loving our neighbor and we love our neighbor by the love
00:22:28 for neighbor the second greatest commandment is the second table of the law so we look at
00:22:31 commandments five through ten and you just named at least two of them commandment number five we
00:22:35 want to honor our our fathers and so we have founding fathers in our nation but then you said
00:22:39 live not by lies and that'd be the ninth commandment that we cannot bear false witness that
00:22:43 we're not loving our neighbor in that regard um if there's anything for the masking the vaccines
00:22:47 and all those kinds of things you know back before any of us really knew the data i think you maybe
00:22:52 could have hinged that on you know the sixth commandment um you know which is now shall not
00:22:56 murder but if we root that down to the you know the general principle or the general equity it's
00:23:01 you know we don't want to do any physical harm to our neighbor um but but now that the data has come
00:23:06 out it's become very clear that a cloth mask you know and this you know don't cancel us youtube
00:23:11 but a cloth mask according to the cdc is um is decoration by this point so anytime you see
00:23:18 someone wearing a cloth mask um the data the science if we actually follow the science
00:23:22 says uh that wearing a cloth mask does nothing in regards to the sixth commandment thou shall not
00:23:27 murder um but it does breach we would argue the ninth commandment thou shall not lie and spread
00:23:33 the the fear porn of of the virus being much more deadly than it actually is would you agree with
00:23:37 that yeah i would absolutely agree with that not not only is uh now acknowledge that the masks do
00:23:44 no good and it's it's arguable and i think uh common sense arguable that they do a lot of damage
00:23:51 i've got this cloth cloth petri dish dish on my on my face to catch all the germs which i touch
00:23:59 and adjust and move around before i touch before i touch everybody's doorknobs right
00:24:05 you know good grief and you think this through right and you've got kids who i mean i think
00:24:09 they said it was like a 300 something percent increase of young children having to go to speech
00:24:15 classes because they they're behind on their development because they they can't see their
00:24:20 parents talk you know they're they need to to see people pronounce words you know not just hear them
00:24:26 but physically see them and so they're they've been hindered in that so so with christian nationalism
00:24:31 it seems like the first way that it's used is okay well you're being idolatrous so idolatry
00:24:35 in a word. You're elevating your citizenship in, you know, in whatever nation God has sovereignly
00:24:41 placed you in above your citizenship in Christ. The second way, so idolatry in a word. The second
00:24:47 one is heresy. And so I'd like to pick your brain on this one. I'm using the term heresy, just,
00:24:52 you know, but idolatry, heresy. And this is what I see here. I wrote, believing that a particular
00:24:58 nation, for example, America has replaced the nation state of Israel as it existed under the
00:25:04 old covenant instead of rightly viewing the new testament church as the fulfillment of israel so
00:25:10 replacement theology which is another derogatory term um but but we believe that you know that the
00:25:15 church didn't replace israel but we believe that um that the church is the fulfillment of israel
00:25:19 that israel was like the scaffolding building this temple of of the church and the moment that
00:25:24 they finished the project they were all warmly invited by christ the head of the church to come
00:25:28 inside and to join it, but chose rather many of them to harden their hearts. So Israel under the
00:25:35 old covenant, the nation state of Israel, if it's been replaced, and there are better words to use,
00:25:39 but if it's been replaced by anything, it is not Israel replaced by America or Brazil or China.
00:25:44 Israel has been replaced by the church. So in my assessment, you've got the idolatry piece,
00:25:48 which I don't see a lot of conservative evangelicals committing. They're actually
00:25:53 caring more about their national identity than their spiritual identity in Christ.
00:25:57 and then you have the heresy piece this one i definitely don't see because the way i see it
00:26:01 and and this is what i'd like your thoughts on i feel like there's there's two primary categories
00:26:05 that most conservative evangelicals fall into you got guys on the two kingdom side of things
00:26:10 that they don't think um that not only do they not think america has replaced israel they don't
00:26:15 even think the church has replaced israel they think israel is you know is rocking and rolling
00:26:19 and there's two tracks you know and um you know so that'd be like your dispensational uh dispensational
00:26:24 position. And then all of your covenant guys, whether it be Westminster
00:26:29 covenantalism or like a 1689 federalism, which would be where I'm at.
00:26:33 And so you just got to humor me with my Baptist ways, but still
00:26:37 in that covenant framework. But for us, we would say the church
00:26:41 has replaced Israel, not America. So you got the 0.85
00:26:45 dispensational guys who are going to say Israel hasn't been replaced at all
00:26:49 by the church or America. Then you got us saying the church, not America.
00:26:53 um so so who is russell moore and these guys who are they talking about who is committing this
00:26:59 heresy of of believing that america actually is the equivalent of israel do you know any
00:27:05 conservative christians who hold that view i have no idea who they're talking about now i have seen
00:27:11 i have seen some blasphemous artwork online you know jesus wearing a america like around
00:27:19 you know there's that kind of uh syncretism where um that sort of stuff does go on but that's kind
00:27:28 of a fever swamp uh reaction that's kind of out there and that's fbi informants probably that
00:27:34 came up with that artwork yeah um the the thing that they're missing and this is it staggers me
00:27:41 that we can't get this point across.
00:27:46 What we're saying is that I would stoutly deny
00:27:52 that America has any unique prophetic role to play.
00:27:58 America is not God's chosen people.
00:28:01 We're not God's chosen nation.
00:28:04 The gospel has expanded from Israel to the world.
00:28:08 So the church, the church, which is the fulfillment of the olive tree, let's say.
00:28:15 So Israel, Old Testament Israel was the olive tree. 0.93
00:28:19 The church has been grafted, believing Gentiles have been grafted in to the olive tree.
00:28:24 Unbelieving Jews were cut out of the olive tree. 0.93
00:28:27 And this olive tree is going to grow and fill the face of the world with fruit. 0.99
00:28:32 So what was this church, this fulfillment?
00:28:36 I think your phrase of the fulfillment of Israel is the best way to put it.
00:28:41 Not, we don't replace Israel the way one billiard ball replaces the other one.
00:28:47 We are the fulfillment of Israel the way an olive tree comes to harvest.
00:28:53 You know, where everything is coming to fruition.
00:28:57 What was that church, that fulfillment of Israel commanded to do?
00:29:02 Well, the Great Commission was a command to disciple the nations, right?
00:29:08 So before the task of the prophets was to disciple the nation, Israel, and that was to be a witness to all the nations, even in the Old Testament.
00:29:20 Now the explicit commandment is for us to disciple America and Canada and Mexico and Brazil and around the world.
00:29:30 So, America is so far from being uniquely the chosen people of God, we are one nation among many.
00:29:39 So, consequently, I want all the nations to come to Christ.
00:29:43 I want all the nations to stream to the root of Jesse, as the prophets say they will. 0.80
00:29:51 And that is, there is no unique spiritual place for America that is a counterpart for Israel.
00:30:00 that just doesn't exist and no responsible theologian holds that yep i i completely agree
00:30:08 so one one other thing that i'd love for you to share with our listeners that i heard you say
00:30:12 maybe a month or two ago that i thought was so great you did a little video on
00:30:16 um you know you and i one of our favorite christian nationalists russell moore who uh ironically is
00:30:23 very concerned right about insurrection and very concerned about the nation's capital and its
00:30:27 well-being and so could you could you pick apart some of the hypocrisy in that yeah it was really
00:30:34 striking that um that russell moore who attacks christian nationalists every chance he gets
00:30:41 said said in that clip that i was responding to how outraged how furious he was at the uh january
00:30:50 six insurrectionists going into the Capitol. But my question is, why? Now, I'm not, I think
00:31:00 the insurrection going into the Capitol was the king of the bad ideas, because, you know,
00:31:05 it was a tactical, it was a tactical blunder. But I think the reaction to this, to that
00:31:14 that rowdy band that went into the Capitol has been a way over reaction,
00:31:19 but which the incursion gave them the, the permission to do.
00:31:24 But Russell Moore is part of that over reaction.
00:31:27 The sacred temple of the sacred temple of democracy has been besmirched by
00:31:34 these Trump supporters. Okay. Well,
00:31:36 why is Russell Moore talking as though this was a sacrilegious incursion into
00:31:44 the capitol if he's not a christian nationalist right but you know he he is being far more
00:31:52 concerned far more uh obsessed with um repeating the approved political party line than i am
00:32:03 right so the um uh article just recently came out uh written by megan basham for the daily
00:32:11 weiner great article on on how um basically how francis collins used evangelical the the
00:32:22 evangelical thought leaders who were seated at the evangelical cool table right ed stetzer tim
00:32:28 keller russell moore were there any other significant ones that she named oh yeah there
00:32:33 were um uh nt right yeah so there was a a number of them who's uh uh joe um carter joe carter um
00:32:46 they they sort of repeated the official line to to get christians to come along and conform
00:32:53 but what they're doing is they're playing ball with the powers that be
00:32:58 right they're being they're being uh christians who color inside the lines they're doing what
00:33:07 they're told so what they're told by their nation what they're being told by their nation
00:33:12 what they're told by their by their national leaders right and all the so-called christian
00:33:17 nationalists are not doing what we're told you know where are you most likely to find
00:33:25 civil resistance or civil disobedience to the nation right well it's it's among conservative
00:33:33 christians we're the ones that didn't we're the ones that didn't lock down we're the ones that
00:33:39 kept our churches open we're the ones that are not wearing masks we're the ones not getting 0.88
00:33:44 vaccinated we're the ones not going along with the burgefell and the same-sex mirage 0.81
00:33:49 we're the ones standing against the abortion policy of the united states so we're the ones 0.93
00:33:55 testifying to our nation that her deeds are evil we're the ones doing that so why are we accused
00:34:03 of idolatry and the people who are um providing polite golf applause to our principalities and
00:34:12 powers are somehow the stalwart we stand against the spirit of the age makes no sense makes no
00:34:21 sense right yeah no you're completely right that's really helpful um okay so in light of that uh with
00:34:28 with christian nationalism so this is one of the thought that i've had is just you know for me like
00:34:32 post-millennialism is something that i've i've i would say i'm officially post-millennial for
00:34:37 probably the last year and a half, two years, and you being one of the major voices that won me over
00:34:42 to that. And biblically, one of the biggest things that got me there, and it goes with our
00:34:48 conversation about Christian nationalism and national identity, is really just two texts.
00:34:55 So Matthew 16, or maybe 18, and then Matthew 28. So the Great Commission, all authority in heaven 0.55
00:35:05 on earth has been given to me. And then we see, you know, maybe four commandments, but really just
00:35:08 one commandment, which is to, to, as you go make disciples and how do you disciple them? You disciple
00:35:14 them by baptizing them and teaching them to obey all of Christ's commands, all of Christ for all
00:35:18 of life, right? The whole counsel of God for the whole of human life, um, obeying commands in every
00:35:22 single realm of human society, human life. Um, and so that's a great commission, um, which absolutely
00:35:28 if we follow that, if we obey every single one of Christ's commands in practical obedience applied
00:35:34 to every realm then then that's going to that's going to have um uh an effect implications for
00:35:42 for our role and responsibility as citizens as national citizens so then the only question at
00:35:47 that point um which is why i mentioned matthew 16 um i believe it's 16 is uh well will we be
00:35:54 successful in matthew 16 jesus seems to say that we will i will build my church and the gates of
00:35:59 hell will not prevail against it the gates being defensive and and so the church seems to be the
00:36:03 battering ram the weapon the offensive weapon of christ that he is wielding to ultimately break
00:36:10 down the gates of hell so that seems to say okay this is the great commission that's later given
00:36:14 uh matthew 16 and matthew 28 we have the command in matthew 16 we seem to have the promise that
00:36:21 it's it's going to work so for me it seems like most of the reformed ish you know some of them
00:36:28 are reform some of them may be just more calvinistic but the christians that i speak to
00:36:31 they all agree in theory about this great commission and that yes it has a civil application
00:36:38 or civil implications if we teach Jesus to obey or we teach you know disciples to obey all of
00:36:44 Jesus's commands in every realm of life it's that it's going to have an effect and especially when
00:36:50 we cross-reference that and pair it with Paul remaining in the station that you were in when
00:36:54 the Lord called you you know like governors are going to get saved or the jailer Philippian
00:36:58 jailer is going to get saved people in positions of government are going to get saved and then
00:37:01 we're going to disciple them to obey jesus commands as they apply in that station which
00:37:06 means they're going to have to legislate god's law rather than man's law all those kind of things
00:37:09 so then it seems like the only thing keeping people still like that like the only excuse left
00:37:15 is yeah but it'll never work right so in comes pre-millennialism incomes you know that and and
00:37:22 that's that's what i continue to bump up against is basically it seems like you're forced to be a
00:37:27 Christian nationalist in the right sense of the word, having a secondary national identity and
00:37:33 obeying Christ in that identity, in that role of a citizen. And that's going to have massive effects
00:37:39 for a nation unless all that theologically seems to check out, unless you just think this whole
00:37:46 Great Commission will never work. And it seems like some guys are able to keep their two kingdom
00:37:51 card by ultimately like the root of that, the foundation for their two kingdomism is their
00:37:56 they're pessimistic eschatology. Can you, can you help me with that?
00:38:01 Am I thinking on the right track?
00:38:03 Yeah. I think a conservative Christian who loves the Lord,
00:38:07 who's not post mill could listen to us talk about what we think it ought to be
00:38:12 like.
00:38:12 And they could agree that that would be wonderful if it could happen.
00:38:18 Okay. If that, if that were to happen, they would be delighted.
00:38:24 They just don't think it's going to happen.
00:38:26 And so my question to them is, how much of this not going to happen is caused by you being right about the eschatology and how much of it is a self-fulfilling prophecy?
00:38:42 So you've probably played for athletic teams where you were on a team or you played a team that went into the game absolutely convinced that they were going to lose.
00:38:52 and um one of the consequences of that is you don't play well um it becomes a self-fulfilling
00:39:00 prophecy oh we'll never beat these guys and because you're convinced that you're you'll
00:39:06 never beat these guys uh you don't so i i'm convinced that looking at north america
00:39:15 and the millions of evangelicals who are here,
00:39:20 I think it has to be admitted
00:39:22 that at least as far as our country is concerned,
00:39:26 the defeats have been a self-fulfilling prophecy
00:39:29 and not an eschatological necessity.
00:39:32 Yeah. 0.99
00:39:33 If all the evangelicals in America,
00:39:38 and there are tens of millions of us,
00:39:41 if all of them were ardent Muslims,
00:39:45 what would have happened yeah okay or if all the if you gave the communists
00:39:52 hardcore communists the number of american citizens that evangelicals have what would
00:40:00 have happened if you if you look at um the infrastructure evangelicals have i think
00:40:07 something like one out of every seven radio stations is a christian station we have our
00:40:13 publishing houses we have seminaries we have scores of colleges we you know we we have an
00:40:21 enormous infrastructure what we don't have is a zealous faith we don't have we don't have
00:40:28 scholarship on fire we've got scholarship we've got scholars we've got books we've got you know 0.61
00:40:35 we've got a lot of activity evangelicals are good at activity but they are not good at let's take 0.74
00:40:42 that hill boys yeah you're absolutely right yeah it does seem self-fulfilling it and and that's why
00:40:49 i wanted to host a conversation on this topic about christian nationalism because it seems like
00:40:54 that's one of the things one of the boogeymen that's being weaponized to ensure the impotence
00:41:00 of evangelicals right like you you wouldn't you wouldn't want to be a christian nationalist you
00:41:04 wouldn't want to be idolatrous you wouldn't want to be heretical and thinking that america replaced
00:41:08 israel like whether the idolatry or the heresy and either or um you don't want to be a christian
00:41:14 nationalist aka what they really mean is um being in being evangelical be a christian but make sure
00:41:20 that the lordship of christ is always privatized he's a lord of your sweet little heart but he's
00:41:25 not lord of all and and so don't take your christian faith into the workplace don't take
00:41:30 it into the voting booth um you know it's it's god is for uh church and family church and family
00:41:36 and uh it's it's that pietism you know and it seems like as that became the predominant view
00:41:41 um that's when we started losing so it doesn't seem like we started losing because it was written
00:41:47 in the stars and it couldn't be helped it seems like we started losing because we started playing
00:41:53 poorly right that's exactly right and we started playing poorly because we spooked ourselves
00:42:00 Yep. I agree. All right. Well, let's, let's shift gears and we'll, we'll go ahead and land the
00:42:05 plane and be done here in just a moment. But, uh, you know, uh, recently, you know, you did a video
00:42:10 on Jordan Peterson and his view of the Bible. And I thought it was, you know, you said you ended it
00:42:15 by saying you're not far from the kingdom. And I thought that was a great way to end it. What,
00:42:19 what does Jordan Peterson need? Of course he needs, he needs conversion. He needs regeneration,
00:42:23 but where, where is he, where would you say he's missing it? Cause, cause he said like the Bible
00:42:28 is the founder is not only is it true but it's the truest truth it's the source the the foundation
00:42:33 for all truth it's the it's the the the fountainhead so there are other streams like shakespeare and
00:42:37 things like that that come off the river um but but this is the source um and all that sounds
00:42:43 really good uh where is he still missing it okay so this is my take from a distance
00:42:50 and you have to qualify it all the all the ways right um but it's very obvious to me
00:42:58 that jordan peterson is passionately attached to the truth he wants to he he made he became famous
00:43:08 through his refusal to play along with the pronouns he is a great example of
00:43:14 solzhenitsyn's charge to live not by lies he said they said we want you to live by this lie
00:43:21 start using his little pronouns and he just flat refused because he said i'm going to speak the
00:43:26 truth i'm going to whatever it is i am convinced of as the truth i'm going to speak that truth
00:43:32 now that kind of commitment to truth and his dogged and tenacious attachment to it i think
00:43:43 is admirable and praiseworthy but i think i'm detecting in him a lack of understanding of grace
00:43:52 so i think that he is he is one who doesn't understand that this is not something that he
00:44:05 must achieve through his pursuit of the truth yeah okay now i think his pursuit of the truth
00:44:14 is admirable but this is going to happen when god gives him a gift and i think he's going to give it
00:44:22 to him from behind where uh it's simply it's simply going to catch up with him and so i think
00:44:30 that peterson has to come into sort of a living vibrant robust connection with the all-consuming
00:44:39 grace of god um people who are committed to truth the way he is are sometimes committed to their own
00:44:48 ability to grasp the truth right and that can that can be a form of works i think that's spot
00:44:56 on i mean he really does remind me of nicodemus you know he's seeking jesus out at night and
00:45:03 really you got to give him a little bit more credit even than nicodemus i feel like he's
00:45:06 willing to seek jesus out by day you know like he's even willing to you know publicly be seen
00:45:11 as someone who's seeking truth and even seeking truth in the bible seeking truth from from christ
00:45:16 and uh which is incredibly admirable but but the words of jesus his response to nicodemus still
00:45:21 stands true for every man including peterson that a man cannot even see much less enter the
00:45:26 kingdom of God unless he be born again. Yeah. He needs to be born again. All right. Any final
00:45:32 thoughts? No, it's a pleasure talking with you. Yeah. Always nice to remind one another that we're
00:45:38 not crazy. There are other people out there. There are, and they don't, you know, not, not to steal
00:45:43 away your thunder, but they don't believe it or not all live in Moscow. I know that, I know that 0.89
00:45:47 most of them do and everybody is moving there, but how, just out of curiosity, I imagined, so I went
00:45:52 out it was february it was right before the madness february 2020 and you and i we got
00:45:57 breakfast and and we talked about me being a pastor in california and and i ended up moving
00:46:02 at the end of that year and now i'm in texas um but but i remember visiting the church and i think
00:46:07 at that time it was before covet hit you guys were probably about a thousand people you had two
00:46:11 services and then you also had um on the on the square there i think um your son-in-law uh merkel
00:46:18 was um was leading that but all all things you know combined i think you were about a thousand
00:46:23 i'm imagining because i hear from people all the all the time they're like hey we're either
00:46:28 going to come out and join you joel or we're going to come and join uh jeff uh durbin or we're going
00:46:32 to go to uh moscow you know so i imagine you know that that you guys have virtually doubled in size
00:46:38 have you had that kind of growth uh yeah it's not doubled but it's it's getting there and i think by
00:46:45 a year from now a year from now it will have doubled so since since you were here um last
00:46:53 last sunday for example we had over 1500 wow um people worshiping wow there is a massive
00:47:00 basically it's a massive refugee column i i call them refugees in in the first instance and
00:47:07 reinforcements yes in the in the second because a lot of these people are very talented insightful
00:47:13 gifted people and they're coming here because their blue state governor chased them here that's
00:47:19 right and so we we've had so many people uh coming here we uh called uh we hired a minister
00:47:28 um to simply serve as a chaplain for the for the people who were who were new who'd been here
00:47:36 under a year so it's there's not a week that goes by um every every sunday at church and at a beer
00:47:45 and psalms thing that we have every every week i meet one to three people who say something like
00:47:53 well we're here now yeah i know who that minister is i'm going to be interviewing him uh next week
00:47:58 and so uh yeah good job i'm very encouraged you know like i i i feel pretty convicted about my
00:48:05 my 1689 view but i'm very encouraged to know that if i ever slip over into the paedo baptist realm
00:48:11 that that you know there are guys like you who won't just poke fun at me but maybe maybe make a
00:48:16 make some room welcome open arms yes yeah so good good on you guys for welcoming uh that brother
00:48:22 okay well that's that's great i really appreciate it um oh this was the only other thing was uh what
00:48:27 are the so moscow the only thing is it's a small town so where i'm at you know it's like we have
00:48:32 have some of the provisions and being in texas we have the provisions of being in williamson county
00:48:35 but we have the opportunity of of economic opportunity of austin what what are the guys
00:48:40 doing uh for work in moscow um you know one of the things this is god's sense of humor a number
00:48:46 of people because of covid they and because of the covid and the lockdown they proved where they
00:48:53 were that they could do their jobs remote gotcha um and so uh there have been not a few who have
00:49:01 brought their jobs with them others have been like uh entrepreneurial types they've brought
00:49:07 their businesses with with them and so they're not only excuse me not only are they coming
00:49:14 not looking for a job but they're coming and able to hire people wow to um uh to begin
00:49:21 manufacturing or you know uh writing there so there's a lot of entrepreneurial zeal in this
00:49:30 It's sort of like, it reminds me of the French arriving in Geneva when, in the Reformation, there was a vast influx of French refugees who were a highly talented people.
00:49:45 And we're being blessed by them already.
00:49:48 It's just really amazing.
00:49:50 Praise God.
00:49:51 Yeah, I told you right before we started recording, just last week I had four guys, and not 18-year-old single guys, but four guys in their 40s or late 30s who are all married and all have children representing four households.
00:50:03 And we've only been out here a year, but they flew in for the weekend and spent time with me and came to church.
00:50:07 And they're all from California, and they're all considering moving to Georgetown, Texas, where I'm at.
00:50:13 And one of the big discussions that we had were, yeah, they're like, we're not being compliant.
00:50:17 We're taking a stand, all these kind of things.
00:50:19 But they recognize that at some level, you have to honestly evaluate fighting.
00:50:25 If you're going to stay in California or New York or something, you know, fighting versus funding.
00:50:28 And they're like, yeah, we're fighting in terms of we're preaching the gospel.
00:50:32 We're faithfully a part of a Bible preaching church.
00:50:34 We tithe.
00:50:35 But the funding piece and Gavin Newsom just continues to threat to double the funding with like paying taxes for businesses on their gross income now, you know, and all these.
00:50:47 So as it gets higher and higher and higher,
00:50:48 you just have to take an honest look and say like,
00:50:50 okay, this is how much I'm giving
00:50:52 to the state of California
00:50:53 and this is what it goes towards.
00:50:55 And this is how much I'm fighting in real terms.
00:50:57 I gotta be honest.
00:50:58 And I think a lot of Christians in California,
00:51:00 sometimes they overemphasize,
00:51:02 they inflate how much fighting they're doing
00:51:04 and they minimize and kind of turn a blind eye
00:51:07 to how much funding they're actually doing.
00:51:09 And I think, you said before we started recording,
00:51:11 if you're really gonna be a nuisance,
00:51:13 a godly nuisance to the pagans in California, and you're fighting more than you're funding,
00:51:19 then God bless you. But I think a lot of Christians are realizing, man, it's not that
00:51:24 we're not willing to fight, but even with all the fight that we have, the funding keeps raising
00:51:29 through legislation higher and higher and higher to where I really feel like the best way, it's not
00:51:34 that we're leaving the fight, right? We're retreating to the rear, right? It's not that
00:51:37 we're leaving the fight. We really believe that one of the best ways we can fight is by fleeing.
00:51:43 a fighting by fleeing that by leaving California, that it might cause it to implode. And so guys
00:51:49 are going to you guys are going to, uh, you know, places like apology and, and, and for our church,
00:51:54 I mean, we literally started in April of 2021. So it's been less than a year and to have not one,
00:51:59 but four husbands and fathers come out and visit us, you know, it's just, I never, I mean,
00:52:05 it's not just individuals. People are leaving in caravans now, whole communities. So it's crazy.
00:52:11 Yeah.
00:52:12 It's crazy.
00:52:12 Yeah.
00:52:13 All right.
00:52:13 Well, Pastor Doug, thank you so much for your time and your wisdom.
00:52:16 I've grown so much from your ministry.
00:52:18 We appreciate you guys coming on the show.
00:52:20 Thanks.
00:52:21 Great to be with you.
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