00:05:26.700actual conservative evangelicals with so much guilt, right?
00:05:31.800to lay upon them so much guilt that they can't vote for policies anymore.
00:05:36.960They're dissuaded from actually bringing their Christian faith
00:05:40.420and their biblical faith into the voting booth with them.
00:05:42.800So Christian nationalism was the first topic.
00:05:45.300But then we also spent probably about 10, 15 minutes
00:05:48.320talking about Dr. Jordan Peterson, his view of Scripture,
00:05:52.160and what has to happen, what he's getting right,
00:05:54.960but also what he's missing and what has to happen
00:05:57.220for him ultimately to come to salvation.
00:06:00.060And then lastly, we talked about places like New York, places like California, blue states
00:06:05.500where governors are running their residents out of their states and to places like Moscow where
00:06:11.880Doug is, places like where I'm at and the church that I pastor, Covenant Bible Church in Georgetown,
00:06:17.180Texas. And so we talked about why people are fleeing and how to make that choice for people
00:06:22.680who are still in New York or still in California and who are Christians. How do you weigh when
00:06:28.780it's time to leave. And one of the concepts that we discuss is this, how do we properly weigh how
00:06:35.060much fighting we're doing versus by our mere presence in a blue state, how much funding we're
00:06:40.860doing? Are we fighting more than we're funding? So packed episode, you guys are going to love it.
00:06:45.880Here we go. Applying God's word to every aspect of life. This is Theology Applied.
00:06:52.820All right, welcome to another episode of Theology Applied, and I'm very privileged
00:07:01.440to have as a special guest, returning now, I believe, for the third time, Pastor Doug Wilson
00:07:05.580in Moscow, Idaho, pastor of Christ Church, and I guess founder of Canon Press. Doug,
00:07:12.840thanks for coming on. Thanks for having me. Absolutely. All right, so real quick, before
00:07:17.940we recorded, Doug and I were talking about, you know, well, I kind of threw out for him
00:07:22.180three options of topics and the one he liked the best was Christian nationalism. And so we've got
00:07:27.840an upcoming conference as we've been announcing here where I pastor north of Austin, Williamson
00:07:33.080County, Texas. That's going to be March 12th and 13th, a Saturday and Sunday where I've got John
00:07:38.780Harris and I've got A.D. Robles coming out. And one of the topics that I'm going to talk about is
00:07:43.260I've titled the talk, the lecture, Debunking the Boogeyman of Christian Nationalism. So Pastor
00:07:51.160what do you think about that title what do you think about that topic and and what do you think
00:07:54.960just in general about christian nationalism yeah so i think it's important for you to do all the
00:08:00.260debunking you can because um the attack being made on conservatives who are saying uh waking up and
00:08:08.780saying hey about what's being done to dismantle all our um social structures um is that is to
00:08:17.840accuse us of being christian nationalists right and that's that's their code word for fascist
00:08:24.560basically um so you're putting you're putting your national allegiance before christ you're a
00:08:33.400you're a nationalist uh right or wrong uh your nation is the is the ultimate um allegiance that
00:08:42.980you have which is basically uh slander by implication okay because a nation is uh there
00:08:51.960are good nations there are mediocre nations there are wicked nations so when you say it's like the0.81
00:08:58.920term the patriarchy um well the devil's a patriarch you know he's he's the father of lies0.97
00:09:07.200So there's a there's a diabolical patriarchy. There's a patriarchy that we're against because it's the devils. Right. But then we serve we serve God the father. That too is a patriarchy. You can't just take a structural term rule rule by fathers and use it as a term of approbation or disapprobation.0.98
00:09:30.260It's the same with nation nations or nationalism. So you've,
00:09:35.640you've got there. There are only three possible structures, uh, given,
00:09:39.820given the 7 billion people that we have on the world today,
00:09:42.480we can organize ourselves, uh, by tribe.
00:12:08.180that will get to them right um and i think that if i were if if uh our nation became a failed state
00:12:16.880everything fell apart and it was all localism it was all tribalism then i would i would have a
00:12:24.280significant voice in my tribe but it's fragmented and my tribe is now tiny and christians ought to
00:12:35.220be thinking about what structure what structure is there that would allow committed christians
00:12:41.560to do the most good okay and i think i think the system of national structures
00:12:48.860is a good balance of power um structure it it uh creates the the possibility of travel
00:12:58.560and communication across um large distances like you and i are doing right now right
00:13:04.840Um, right. We, we can, we can evangelize. So it's not, it's not to say that the nation comes before Christ, but precisely because Christ comes first, what is going to create the, the most opportunity for the gospel. Right. And I think, I think a system of, um, separate and distinct nations.
00:13:30.160Mm hmm. I completely agree. Yeah. So that kind of goes along with some of my thoughts on on Christian nationalism. I think primarily it's used as a derogatory term to, you know, well, I wrote a couple of thoughts. I wrote it like this.1.00
00:13:45.160even jellyfish such as Russell Moore have weaponized the concept of Christian nationalism
00:13:50.720to gaslight conservative slash biblical Christians so that they feel too guilty to actually vote for
00:13:56.740conservative political candidates. And so I think, you know, the ways that it's used is one of two
00:14:03.020ways or perhaps both, one of them being exactly what you just said in a word to summarize idolatry,
00:14:09.720right? So that, you know, prioritizing national identity above spiritual identity. For the
00:14:14.020Christian, our first identity is in Christ. But that doesn't mean that the Lord hasn't assigned
00:14:18.640to a secondary identities. And so we would say, yeah, I'm in Christ, but I have, that's my primary
00:14:23.600identity, but I have these secondary identities that do absolutely dictate for me what my
00:14:29.460allegiance to Christ looks like in day-to-day practical obedience. So I am a Christian first
00:14:34.620and foremost, but I'm also a man. So gender would be a secondary identity. The Bible says0.98
00:14:40.000different things for men than it says for women, husband versus wife, father versus mother. And so
00:14:48.500there are all these secondary identities. And I think, you know, national citizenship would be
00:14:52.700one of them. And I'm curious your thoughts on this, but I feel like one of the things that
00:14:57.940liberal progressive, you know, Christians often do with the boogeyman of Christian nationalism0.70
00:15:04.220is they actually acknowledge this category of secondary identities, but they misorder it.0.74
00:15:10.000they misprioritize and so what they'll do is they'll emphasize for instance they'll emphasize
00:15:15.120skin pigmentation um ethnicity over gender right so black and white really big deal male and female
00:15:23.200not not such a big deal you know um and then and then on the you know national citizenship level
00:15:28.800um they'll they'll do you know a member of the human race right that would be the globalism
00:15:33.280option big deal a member of united states of america not big deal or on the flip side of it
00:15:38.400like what you're describing as as localism or tribalism to use specifically a city as an example
00:15:43.700i think aaron wren said this um a few months ago but i thought it was very insightful how often do
00:15:49.880you hear pastors say our church is in and for the city right jeremiah i believe it's 27 you know so
00:15:55.480in and for the city we're in and for seattle but if a pastor had the audacity to say we're a church
00:15:59.460in and for america he would be blasted you know and and so then it comes down to well biblically
00:16:05.100where's the emphasis placed? Like cities are biblical. The Bible talks about cities and,
00:16:10.240and, you know, and there, I don't think it's inherently wrong to identify with your city,
00:16:15.020that we love our city. As long as that's not idolatrous where we're loving our city,
00:16:20.760you know, at the expense or, or, or more than we're loving Christ. But why can't we apply that
00:16:25.140to nations? Because if anything, it seems like there's more of a biblical premises
00:16:28.120for nations in terms of the exact boundaries and borders of nations being sovereignly appointed
00:16:34.260by God. That's Acts chapter 17, I believe verse 26. And not just their boundaries, but the times,
00:16:40.440empires, God set sovereignly. This empire is going to last for 250 years to the date. In the same way
00:16:46.660he's numbered our days and the hairs on our head as individual people, he's done that with nations.
00:16:51.240So we know nations exist. God's given them, it seems, the sovereign right to exist. He's limited
00:16:56.340their geographic boundaries. So the size, but also the time, the scope of nations. So all of that is
00:17:04.100painfully clear in scripture. So if it's okay to identify with the city, so long as it's not
00:17:09.580idolatrous, identifying with our city more than our identity in Christ, but to love our city,
00:17:14.560identify with our city, why can't we be a church in and for America? I personally would just opt
00:17:20.760for, let's just be a church in Christ and for Christ, which will benefit both cities and nations.
00:17:25.800But if we're going to be in and for the city, why can't we be in and for the nation? What do you
00:17:29.580think about that yeah that's absolutely correct a well-moderated patriotism is a function of
00:17:37.680obedience to the fifth commandment either honor your father and mother that's good okay and so
00:17:43.880if you go to the westminster larger catechism and ask uh what's what are what are the implications
00:17:49.700of the command to honor your father and mother um uh love for your people is is one of those
00:17:59.500things now of course i should love my mom i should honor my father and i should do it without
00:18:05.140idolatry that that is a given yes do it without idolatry um and i do the same thing with my my
00:18:13.360nation my people i have an affection because i'm not a block of wood i have an affection for the
00:18:19.080places where i grew up for my people for the people i interact with uh that is not only okay
00:18:25.900not only is it lawful but i think it's unlawful to not have it right you're you're supposed to
00:18:32.140have natural question but i would want to insert one other thing uh in this that is uh sometimes
00:18:38.600missed so we agree that our ultimate allegiance is to christ our ultimate allegiance is to the
00:18:44.880ultimate truth the truth about god man sin salvation revelation okay but after that after
00:18:52.420our allegiance to the truth capital t truth we also have an allegiance to what is true
00:18:58.700in the world okay if there's a dispute somewhere let's say between canadian truckers and the
00:19:07.400canadian government right so why why do i have such a an affectionate response to what the
00:19:16.700Canadian truckers are doing if I'm a Christian nationalist right right that's a different
00:19:22.240that's a different nation well it's because they are facing so if I love my mom then that
00:19:30.360that doesn't turn me into a bigot that means that I understand it better if someone else loves his
00:19:37.520mom right so I'm I'm supposed to love my country and I understand why a Canadian is supposed to
00:19:45.780love his right and the best way to love my country is to stand for the truth and not elect liars
00:19:52.880and when you have or not support liars once elected and if the canadian truckers are standing
00:20:00.200up against the lie which they are so they're standing up against the lie i can applaud that
00:20:06.480and i can applaud that because i can recognize his obedience to the fifth commandment as i
00:20:13.300recognize my obedience to the fifth commandment even though we have different moms right so
00:20:18.200you're supporting canada uh in large part because of your your national sense of being a citizen
00:20:25.560here in the united states of america and your obligation to obey god's commands as as it as
00:20:31.300it fleshes out through your your secondary identity of citizen right and if we had let's say we have
00:20:36.980the pandemic uh the whole panic porn over the covid thing is an international is an international
00:20:44.020scandal right it's an international it's an international uh hooha international panic
00:20:50.400so the canadians and we and the english they're all we're all facing the same basic setup and i
00:20:58.800have more in common when if our leaders are lying to us and their leaders are lying to them and the
00:21:05.820leader i have more in common with the truth tellers in those respective countries than i have
00:21:15.180with liars in my own right so it's uh stephen decatur uh an early naval hero
00:21:23.300was stephen decatur and he was famous for saying uh my country right or wrong but it was a toast
00:21:30.700that he gave it a dinner party of some sort of event but the full toast was my country may she
00:21:37.080always be right but my country right or wrong and so he wasn't saying i'll follow my country and do
00:21:43.700anything in the name of my country right it was a it was a hopeful wish that your country would
00:21:49.380always be uh in the right but you're connected to your country right or wrong so i'm i have an
00:21:55.980allegiance to my country and an affection for my country and a responsibility to confront lies
00:22:03.180live not by lies in my country so uh so loving america means opposing americans
00:22:12.040yep that's that's great so loving america secondary identity or national identity primary
00:22:18.840being in christ and what does it look like to love americans which ultimately is just
00:22:23.300it's just a specific category of loving our neighbor and we love our neighbor by the love
00:22:28.400for neighbor the second greatest commandment is the second table of the law so we look at
00:22:31.600commandments five through ten and you just named at least two of them commandment number five we
00:22:35.360want to honor our our fathers and so we have founding fathers in our nation but then you said
00:22:39.120live not by lies and that'd be the ninth commandment that we cannot bear false witness that
00:22:43.280we're not loving our neighbor in that regard um if there's anything for the masking the vaccines
00:22:47.860and all those kinds of things you know back before any of us really knew the data i think you maybe
00:22:52.280could have hinged that on you know the sixth commandment um you know which is now shall not
00:22:56.680murder but if we root that down to the you know the general principle or the general equity it's
00:23:01.000you know we don't want to do any physical harm to our neighbor um but but now that the data has come
00:23:06.680out it's become very clear that a cloth mask you know and this you know don't cancel us youtube
00:23:11.960but a cloth mask according to the cdc is um is decoration by this point so anytime you see
00:23:18.120someone wearing a cloth mask um the data the science if we actually follow the science
00:23:22.680says uh that wearing a cloth mask does nothing in regards to the sixth commandment thou shall not
00:23:27.240murder um but it does breach we would argue the ninth commandment thou shall not lie and spread
00:23:33.320the the fear porn of of the virus being much more deadly than it actually is would you agree with
00:23:37.640that yeah i would absolutely agree with that not not only is uh now acknowledge that the masks do
00:23:44.680no good and it's it's arguable and i think uh common sense arguable that they do a lot of damage
00:23:51.400i've got this cloth cloth petri dish dish on my on my face to catch all the germs which i touch
00:23:59.080and adjust and move around before i touch before i touch everybody's doorknobs right
00:24:05.080you know good grief and you think this through right and you've got kids who i mean i think
00:24:09.720they said it was like a 300 something percent increase of young children having to go to speech
00:24:15.480classes because they they're behind on their development because they they can't see their
00:24:20.120parents talk you know they're they need to to see people pronounce words you know not just hear them
00:24:26.440but physically see them and so they're they've been hindered in that so so with christian nationalism
00:24:31.320it seems like the first way that it's used is okay well you're being idolatrous so idolatry
00:24:35.640in a word. You're elevating your citizenship in, you know, in whatever nation God has sovereignly
00:24:41.760placed you in above your citizenship in Christ. The second way, so idolatry in a word. The second
00:24:47.280one is heresy. And so I'd like to pick your brain on this one. I'm using the term heresy, just,
00:24:52.040you know, but idolatry, heresy. And this is what I see here. I wrote, believing that a particular
00:24:58.120nation, for example, America has replaced the nation state of Israel as it existed under the
00:25:04.300old covenant instead of rightly viewing the new testament church as the fulfillment of israel so
00:25:10.040replacement theology which is another derogatory term um but but we believe that you know that the
00:25:15.180church didn't replace israel but we believe that um that the church is the fulfillment of israel
00:25:19.220that israel was like the scaffolding building this temple of of the church and the moment that
00:25:24.040they finished the project they were all warmly invited by christ the head of the church to come
00:25:28.480inside and to join it, but chose rather many of them to harden their hearts. So Israel under the
00:25:35.500old covenant, the nation state of Israel, if it's been replaced, and there are better words to use,
00:25:39.520but if it's been replaced by anything, it is not Israel replaced by America or Brazil or China.
00:25:44.300Israel has been replaced by the church. So in my assessment, you've got the idolatry piece,
00:25:48.940which I don't see a lot of conservative evangelicals committing. They're actually
00:25:53.620caring more about their national identity than their spiritual identity in Christ.
00:25:57.020and then you have the heresy piece this one i definitely don't see because the way i see it
00:26:01.260and and this is what i'd like your thoughts on i feel like there's there's two primary categories
00:26:05.460that most conservative evangelicals fall into you got guys on the two kingdom side of things
00:26:10.540that they don't think um that not only do they not think america has replaced israel they don't
00:26:15.400even think the church has replaced israel they think israel is you know is rocking and rolling
00:26:19.160and there's two tracks you know and um you know so that'd be like your dispensational uh dispensational
00:26:24.920position. And then all of your covenant guys, whether it be Westminster
00:26:29.440covenantalism or like a 1689 federalism, which would be where I'm at.
00:26:33.680And so you just got to humor me with my Baptist ways, but still
00:26:37.580in that covenant framework. But for us, we would say the church
00:26:41.460has replaced Israel, not America. So you got the0.85
00:26:45.280dispensational guys who are going to say Israel hasn't been replaced at all
00:26:49.360by the church or America. Then you got us saying the church, not America.
00:26:53.500um so so who is russell moore and these guys who are they talking about who is committing this
00:26:59.760heresy of of believing that america actually is the equivalent of israel do you know any
00:27:05.900conservative christians who hold that view i have no idea who they're talking about now i have seen
00:27:11.440i have seen some blasphemous artwork online you know jesus wearing a america like around
00:27:19.080you know there's that kind of uh syncretism where um that sort of stuff does go on but that's kind
00:27:28.580of a fever swamp uh reaction that's kind of out there and that's fbi informants probably that
00:27:34.700came up with that artwork yeah um the the thing that they're missing and this is it staggers me
00:28:04.260The gospel has expanded from Israel to the world.
00:28:08.300So the church, the church, which is the fulfillment of the olive tree, let's say.
00:28:15.520So Israel, Old Testament Israel was the olive tree.0.93
00:28:19.700The church has been grafted, believing Gentiles have been grafted in to the olive tree.
00:28:24.740Unbelieving Jews were cut out of the olive tree.0.93
00:28:27.460And this olive tree is going to grow and fill the face of the world with fruit.0.99
00:28:32.660So what was this church, this fulfillment?
00:28:36.200I think your phrase of the fulfillment of Israel is the best way to put it.
00:28:41.340Not, we don't replace Israel the way one billiard ball replaces the other one.
00:28:47.060We are the fulfillment of Israel the way an olive tree comes to harvest.
00:28:53.380You know, where everything is coming to fruition.
00:28:57.160What was that church, that fulfillment of Israel commanded to do?
00:29:02.700Well, the Great Commission was a command to disciple the nations, right?
00:29:08.760So before the task of the prophets was to disciple the nation, Israel, and that was to be a witness to all the nations, even in the Old Testament.
00:29:20.480Now the explicit commandment is for us to disciple America and Canada and Mexico and Brazil and around the world.
00:29:30.940So, America is so far from being uniquely the chosen people of God, we are one nation among many.
00:29:39.420So, consequently, I want all the nations to come to Christ.
00:29:43.380I want all the nations to stream to the root of Jesse, as the prophets say they will.0.80
00:29:51.200And that is, there is no unique spiritual place for America that is a counterpart for Israel.
00:30:00.160that just doesn't exist and no responsible theologian holds that yep i i completely agree
00:30:08.640so one one other thing that i'd love for you to share with our listeners that i heard you say
00:30:12.880maybe a month or two ago that i thought was so great you did a little video on
00:30:16.340um you know you and i one of our favorite christian nationalists russell moore who uh ironically is
00:30:23.000very concerned right about insurrection and very concerned about the nation's capital and its
00:30:27.520well-being and so could you could you pick apart some of the hypocrisy in that yeah it was really
00:30:34.120striking that um that russell moore who attacks christian nationalists every chance he gets
00:30:41.580said said in that clip that i was responding to how outraged how furious he was at the uh january
00:30:50.260six insurrectionists going into the Capitol. But my question is, why? Now, I'm not, I think
00:31:00.180the insurrection going into the Capitol was the king of the bad ideas, because, you know,
00:31:05.680it was a tactical, it was a tactical blunder. But I think the reaction to this, to that
00:31:14.740that rowdy band that went into the Capitol has been a way over reaction,
00:31:19.500but which the incursion gave them the, the permission to do.
00:31:24.540But Russell Moore is part of that over reaction.
00:31:27.220The sacred temple of the sacred temple of democracy has been besmirched by
00:38:12.940And they could agree that that would be wonderful if it could happen.
00:38:18.940Okay. If that, if that were to happen, they would be delighted.
00:38:24.780They just don't think it's going to happen.
00:38:26.720And so my question to them is, how much of this not going to happen is caused by you being right about the eschatology and how much of it is a self-fulfilling prophecy?
00:38:42.260So you've probably played for athletic teams where you were on a team or you played a team that went into the game absolutely convinced that they were going to lose.
00:38:52.880and um one of the consequences of that is you don't play well um it becomes a self-fulfilling
00:39:00.520prophecy oh we'll never beat these guys and because you're convinced that you're you'll
00:39:06.340never beat these guys uh you don't so i i'm convinced that looking at north america
00:39:15.100and the millions of evangelicals who are here,
00:39:45.100what would have happened yeah okay or if all the if you gave the communists
00:39:52.640hardcore communists the number of american citizens that evangelicals have what would
00:40:00.640have happened if you if you look at um the infrastructure evangelicals have i think
00:40:07.120something like one out of every seven radio stations is a christian station we have our
00:40:13.380publishing houses we have seminaries we have scores of colleges we you know we we have an
00:40:21.540enormous infrastructure what we don't have is a zealous faith we don't have we don't have
00:40:28.420scholarship on fire we've got scholarship we've got scholars we've got books we've got you know0.61
00:40:35.020we've got a lot of activity evangelicals are good at activity but they are not good at let's take0.74
00:40:42.300that hill boys yeah you're absolutely right yeah it does seem self-fulfilling it and and that's why
00:40:49.420i wanted to host a conversation on this topic about christian nationalism because it seems like
00:40:54.660that's one of the things one of the boogeymen that's being weaponized to ensure the impotence
00:41:00.180of evangelicals right like you you wouldn't you wouldn't want to be a christian nationalist you
00:41:04.960wouldn't want to be idolatrous you wouldn't want to be heretical and thinking that america replaced
00:41:08.620israel like whether the idolatry or the heresy and either or um you don't want to be a christian
00:41:14.280nationalist aka what they really mean is um being in being evangelical be a christian but make sure
00:41:20.960that the lordship of christ is always privatized he's a lord of your sweet little heart but he's
00:41:25.700not lord of all and and so don't take your christian faith into the workplace don't take
00:41:30.580it into the voting booth um you know it's it's god is for uh church and family church and family
00:41:36.240and uh it's it's that pietism you know and it seems like as that became the predominant view
00:41:41.960um that's when we started losing so it doesn't seem like we started losing because it was written
00:41:47.480in the stars and it couldn't be helped it seems like we started losing because we started playing
00:41:53.180poorly right that's exactly right and we started playing poorly because we spooked ourselves
00:42:00.920Yep. I agree. All right. Well, let's, let's shift gears and we'll, we'll go ahead and land the
00:42:05.760plane and be done here in just a moment. But, uh, you know, uh, recently, you know, you did a video
00:42:10.740on Jordan Peterson and his view of the Bible. And I thought it was, you know, you said you ended it
00:42:15.160by saying you're not far from the kingdom. And I thought that was a great way to end it. What,
00:42:19.140what does Jordan Peterson need? Of course he needs, he needs conversion. He needs regeneration,
00:42:23.540but where, where is he, where would you say he's missing it? Cause, cause he said like the Bible
00:42:28.060is the founder is not only is it true but it's the truest truth it's the source the the foundation
00:42:33.000for all truth it's the it's the the the fountainhead so there are other streams like shakespeare and
00:42:37.960things like that that come off the river um but but this is the source um and all that sounds
00:42:43.580really good uh where is he still missing it okay so this is my take from a distance
00:42:50.640and you have to qualify it all the all the ways right um but it's very obvious to me
00:42:58.480that jordan peterson is passionately attached to the truth he wants to he he made he became famous
00:43:08.840through his refusal to play along with the pronouns he is a great example of
00:43:14.520solzhenitsyn's charge to live not by lies he said they said we want you to live by this lie
00:43:21.020start using his little pronouns and he just flat refused because he said i'm going to speak the
00:43:26.680truth i'm going to whatever it is i am convinced of as the truth i'm going to speak that truth
00:43:32.740now that kind of commitment to truth and his dogged and tenacious attachment to it i think
00:43:43.200is admirable and praiseworthy but i think i'm detecting in him a lack of understanding of grace
00:43:52.800so i think that he is he is one who doesn't understand that this is not something that he
00:44:05.820must achieve through his pursuit of the truth yeah okay now i think his pursuit of the truth
00:44:14.000is admirable but this is going to happen when god gives him a gift and i think he's going to give it
00:44:22.320to him from behind where uh it's simply it's simply going to catch up with him and so i think
00:44:30.560that peterson has to come into sort of a living vibrant robust connection with the all-consuming
00:44:39.660grace of god um people who are committed to truth the way he is are sometimes committed to their own
00:44:48.580ability to grasp the truth right and that can that can be a form of works i think that's spot
00:44:56.920on i mean he really does remind me of nicodemus you know he's seeking jesus out at night and
00:45:03.280really you got to give him a little bit more credit even than nicodemus i feel like he's
00:45:06.460willing to seek jesus out by day you know like he's even willing to you know publicly be seen
00:45:11.400as someone who's seeking truth and even seeking truth in the bible seeking truth from from christ
00:45:16.720and uh which is incredibly admirable but but the words of jesus his response to nicodemus still
00:45:21.620stands true for every man including peterson that a man cannot even see much less enter the
00:45:26.460kingdom of God unless he be born again. Yeah. He needs to be born again. All right. Any final
00:45:32.380thoughts? No, it's a pleasure talking with you. Yeah. Always nice to remind one another that we're
00:45:38.140not crazy. There are other people out there. There are, and they don't, you know, not, not to steal
00:45:43.620away your thunder, but they don't believe it or not all live in Moscow. I know that, I know that0.89
00:45:47.480most of them do and everybody is moving there, but how, just out of curiosity, I imagined, so I went
00:45:52.940out it was february it was right before the madness february 2020 and you and i we got
00:45:57.100breakfast and and we talked about me being a pastor in california and and i ended up moving
00:46:02.100at the end of that year and now i'm in texas um but but i remember visiting the church and i think
00:46:07.000at that time it was before covet hit you guys were probably about a thousand people you had two
00:46:11.240services and then you also had um on the on the square there i think um your son-in-law uh merkel
00:46:18.320was um was leading that but all all things you know combined i think you were about a thousand
00:46:23.900i'm imagining because i hear from people all the all the time they're like hey we're either
00:46:28.100going to come out and join you joel or we're going to come and join uh jeff uh durbin or we're going
00:46:32.880to go to uh moscow you know so i imagine you know that that you guys have virtually doubled in size
00:46:38.980have you had that kind of growth uh yeah it's not doubled but it's it's getting there and i think by
00:46:45.020a year from now a year from now it will have doubled so since since you were here um last
00:46:53.200last sunday for example we had over 1500 wow um people worshiping wow there is a massive
00:47:00.440basically it's a massive refugee column i i call them refugees in in the first instance and
00:47:07.640reinforcements yes in the in the second because a lot of these people are very talented insightful
00:47:13.700gifted people and they're coming here because their blue state governor chased them here that's
00:47:19.180right and so we we've had so many people uh coming here we uh called uh we hired a minister
00:47:28.300um to simply serve as a chaplain for the for the people who were who were new who'd been here
00:47:36.200under a year so it's there's not a week that goes by um every every sunday at church and at a beer
00:47:45.460and psalms thing that we have every every week i meet one to three people who say something like
00:47:53.000well we're here now yeah i know who that minister is i'm going to be interviewing him uh next week
00:47:58.700and so uh yeah good job i'm very encouraged you know like i i i feel pretty convicted about my
00:48:05.040my 1689 view but i'm very encouraged to know that if i ever slip over into the paedo baptist realm
00:48:11.520that that you know there are guys like you who won't just poke fun at me but maybe maybe make a
00:48:16.160make some room welcome open arms yes yeah so good good on you guys for welcoming uh that brother
00:48:22.000okay well that's that's great i really appreciate it um oh this was the only other thing was uh what
00:48:27.520are the so moscow the only thing is it's a small town so where i'm at you know it's like we have
00:48:32.080have some of the provisions and being in texas we have the provisions of being in williamson county
00:48:35.520but we have the opportunity of of economic opportunity of austin what what are the guys
00:48:40.340doing uh for work in moscow um you know one of the things this is god's sense of humor a number
00:48:46.580of people because of covid they and because of the covid and the lockdown they proved where they
00:48:53.500were that they could do their jobs remote gotcha um and so uh there have been not a few who have
00:49:01.480brought their jobs with them others have been like uh entrepreneurial types they've brought
00:49:07.480their businesses with with them and so they're not only excuse me not only are they coming
00:49:14.280not looking for a job but they're coming and able to hire people wow to um uh to begin
00:49:21.820manufacturing or you know uh writing there so there's a lot of entrepreneurial zeal in this
00:49:30.300It's sort of like, it reminds me of the French arriving in Geneva when, in the Reformation, there was a vast influx of French refugees who were a highly talented people.
00:49:45.540And we're being blessed by them already.
00:49:51.140Yeah, I told you right before we started recording, just last week I had four guys, and not 18-year-old single guys, but four guys in their 40s or late 30s who are all married and all have children representing four households.
00:50:03.600And we've only been out here a year, but they flew in for the weekend and spent time with me and came to church.
00:50:07.860And they're all from California, and they're all considering moving to Georgetown, Texas, where I'm at.
00:50:13.560And one of the big discussions that we had were, yeah, they're like, we're not being compliant.
00:50:17.960We're taking a stand, all these kind of things.
00:50:19.420But they recognize that at some level, you have to honestly evaluate fighting.
00:50:25.000If you're going to stay in California or New York or something, you know, fighting versus funding.
00:50:28.740And they're like, yeah, we're fighting in terms of we're preaching the gospel.
00:50:32.100We're faithfully a part of a Bible preaching church.
00:50:35.420But the funding piece and Gavin Newsom just continues to threat to double the funding with like paying taxes for businesses on their gross income now, you know, and all these.
00:50:47.020So as it gets higher and higher and higher,
00:50:48.880you just have to take an honest look and say like,