00:01:55.380welcome thanks joel it's great to see you again great to be back thank you for having me
00:02:00.140you're very welcome um so what i want to discuss is unique to you and unique to myself um at some
00:02:07.480level but very unique to you i want to talk about baptism and instead of having a quasi-informal
00:02:14.320charitable debate and hosting someone who is exclusively fully you know blood sweat and tears
00:02:20.020prescribed to the 1646 Westminster Pato persuasion. What I like about you in this conversation is
00:02:26.720there's a very real sense in which you've had each of your feet in, you know, in both sides of the
00:02:33.340aisle. And so could you maybe start this conversation by just maybe giving a little bit of, we'll get to
00:02:39.740the theology, but let's start with maybe your testimony, your pastoral experience in pastoring
00:02:45.020a presbyterian church and a baptist church yeah um it's interesting i think that uh sometimes with
00:02:54.980with questions like this we are going to be inescapably shaped and informed by some of our
00:03:01.720own experience in in the christian community um for me uh within the global christian community
00:03:08.000and um i often find that people who've had considerable exposure to the to the global
00:03:15.000christian community um will nurture a kind of i hope a healthy catholicity when it comes to
00:03:22.900some of these questions but i was actually raised in um a baptistic environment uh because um i grew
00:03:32.480up in the pentecostal church uh in england and um which is which is baptistic uh and um but my
00:03:42.160studies took place in um an evangelical uh seminary not in a pentecostal seminary so when i was 18 i
00:03:50.620actually went to to theological college and um there were reformed uh professors and scholars
00:03:59.400there one of them was a congregational minister actually who i found to be the most engaging
00:04:07.000of the professors and he introduced me to the puritans and it really introduced me to reform
00:04:16.520thought and so uh in the early part of my christian life i was exposed to and ended up
00:04:25.720getting experience in both a credo-baptist and a paedo-baptist environment and you know
00:04:34.200a number of my professors were paedo-baptist the number were credo-baptist. By the time I was 24
00:04:44.440and in the sort of after my formal initial part of my formal theological education
00:04:51.720I actually was working as an evangelist apologist for an organization in England called Saltmine Trust, actually.
00:05:01.040Still going. They used creative arts largely in going into schools and colleges and doing evangelism with young people.
00:05:10.380And my task was to go in with these creative arts teams into schools, prisons, colleges and share the gospel.
00:05:21.720Um, and, uh, in many of the sort of missions contexts that we were involved with, with churches, uh, it was with, um, every kind of evangelical, um, Christian community.
00:05:35.640Some were, um, credo-baptists, some were paedo-baptists.
00:05:40.280And I saw the love of God and the commitment to Christ and, um, frequently genuine faithfulness to God and his word in all of those environments.
00:05:49.280and um my uh this led on actually to my first pastoral role in my mid-20s i was actually
00:05:58.280you mentioned um presbyterian it was actually anglican it was reformed anglican so my first
00:06:03.940pastoral role where i was essentially functioning as the uh associate pastor my official title was
00:06:11.420director of evangelism was at a church in southwest london which was a uh paedo-baptist
00:06:17.780community and uh i felt as comfortable there um and as as happy there as i had done in any credo
00:06:28.280baptist environment and so um i would say that kind of my my initial experience in the early
00:06:34.600part of my ministry if i can sort of i'll let you come in here and i'll i'll stop there maybe move
00:06:39.520on to westminster in a moment but in that early part of my ministry um found myself with with a
00:06:46.240non-sectarian attitude at least have some of my own convictions but i had a non-sectarian attitude
00:06:51.800to the baptism issue in part because it was driven by a passion for evangelism and apologetics and
00:06:59.600my priority at that time was not really having to manage disagreements or disputes in the local
00:07:05.800church around that issue yeah well that makes a lot of sense i appreciate you sharing a little
00:07:09.920bit of your early ministry experience with us um you know for myself personally as somebody who
00:07:15.380prescribes to the 1689 London Baptist confession of faith. One of the challenges that I've noticed
00:07:21.200pastorally is that I too would prescribe to this kind of lowercase c baptismal Catholicity,
00:07:27.980wanting to link arms across the aisle, so to speak. I don't, that's not my all of time
00:07:34.460definitive and definite position. So I, you know, if Christ chooses to tarry for 10,000 years, I
00:07:40.740I wouldn't hold that in one local assembly, you should have both the Paedo and Credo Baptist
00:07:47.640position represented by the eldership of the church and practiced for all of time.
00:07:53.680But I think that we're living, for lack of a better word, in a unique dispensation in
00:07:57.780this moment where we've got some pretty ferocious giants that the church is facing, some dragons
00:08:05.260that need to be slayed, most notably and urgently, I would say secular humanism being a very large
00:08:12.360one. We've seen the eroding and kind of recession of Christendom in the West, and we want to regain
00:08:18.640that. And so the idea that Presbyterians and Baptists, both being confessionals, 1689 and 1646,
00:08:27.100partnering for the next 20 or 50 years in a local assembly, because they have postmillennialism in
00:08:34.400common, Kuyperianism in common, theonomy in common, patriarchy in common, these kinds of things that
00:08:39.960are absolutely vital in order to, to slay this, this present dragon of, of secularism in order
00:08:47.740to reassure, you know, reassure a Christendom 2.0, and then maybe we can start to fight about
00:08:55.400baptism again. I just feel like the debate of baptism, it matters. It certainly matters,
00:09:00.960But in some sense, it feels as though it's a luxury of times of peace for the church that we currently are not living in.
00:09:08.720What do you think about that? Would you agree with that sentiment?
00:09:12.360Yeah, I think that's a good way of putting it, Joel, actually.
00:09:15.260We don't have that luxury right now. It's a luxury for times of peace.
00:09:20.580I think that the church is under tremendous pressure in the West, unprecedented, really, in many, many years.
00:09:28.740and I think a good example of what you're saying actually is found in on the mission field uh in
00:09:35.380the traditional mission fields I should say of the of the western church so when we talk about
00:09:40.060mission we still tend not to think about our own nations which I think we really should be as well
00:09:45.080um but we think about um heathen lands historically is Islamic cultures pagan cultures
00:09:52.540right um hindu cultures and so on um my family um were missionaries in the islamic world
00:09:59.440um for for about 17 years my parents uh and in the part of the world that they were
00:10:07.680for all those years uh the the missionaries were from uh both paedo and credo baptist backgrounds
00:10:16.360presbyterians anglicans baptists pentecostals and in that setting when you're up against the
00:10:23.980the behemoth of islam the colossus of the islamic world and you're and the percentage of christians
00:10:29.860is you know hovering around one percent your priority is not uh ironing out the details of
00:10:37.340which of those confessions should be adhered to, and the niceties of how one should deal with
00:10:49.120perhaps a paedo-baptized person who wants to go and join membership in a Baptist community.
00:10:56.420Those simply aren't the priorities for obvious reasons. You've got a much larger, broader
00:11:02.400battle to fight. And so, as you say, it's not that the question of baptisms is not important,
00:11:08.460but as the book of Hebrews says, it's one of the foundations. It's the milk.
00:11:17.000Baptisms and discussions about baptisms have gone on for centuries. And this is not an argument
00:11:23.600that we are going to solve anytime soon. In my view, I think we're going to have these two
00:11:30.120emphases with us for a very long time and so in a missions context it's simply not the priority
00:11:36.780and I think that in times of great prosperity for the church in the west in times of
00:11:43.220in a certain sense we might say cultural influence or even cultural victory
00:11:49.300it wasn't just baptists and paedo-baptists that were squabble it would be baptist denominations
00:11:56.760and reform denominations on even lesser issues dividing and and um where i was in toronto there
00:12:05.640was a whole story about the two two um baptist movements that where you know some of the older
00:12:11.880people would would uh tell me that you know when they were kids there would sometimes be some stone
00:12:16.480throwing and argy-bargy between kids from the two different baptist communities because one was on
00:12:22.380that side of the road and the other one was in the other neighborhood and they belonged to two
00:12:25.520different fellowships and it's like so um in a certain sense that sort of thing uh clobbering
00:12:32.980each other with our clogs um is a luxury for for a different time uh to say well you know we're all
00:12:40.840going to be in our own paddling pool right now um there there are a bigger fish to fry as you said
00:12:48.720with the assault of secularism of repaganization in some parts of europe islam and i think um
00:12:54.760there's a good precedent for what you're saying. John Bunyan in that time of tremendous pressure
00:13:00.840on the church in England, pressure on non-conformists. Bunyan spent a lot of time in
00:13:08.080prison, as you know. Bunyan was a non-sectarian on the baptism issue. And actually, some of the
00:13:14.540great Puritan leaders like Cromwell had that Catholicity that you were talking about on this
00:13:22.460issue. So I do think one major factor to consider is, what is the cultural environment? What's the
00:13:28.400cultural situation? Is that discussion, the intramural debate between reformed, evangelical,
00:13:39.960faithful, Christ-honoring believers, is that the priority? And is it something we should be
00:13:46.160splitting up, dividing over, avoiding co-belligerence, not welcoming each other to the
00:13:51.620Lord's Table and so on, or welcoming one another into membership. No, I don't think so. I think
00:13:56.820we're at a moment, as you say, you know, from a, even if we talk about from a pragmatic point of
00:14:02.860view, there's one faith, there's one baptism. And right now, there are much bigger challenges that
00:14:09.260I think if the church got our mind into those, let's come back to this one. But it's not the
00:14:15.160highest priority. Yes, I completely agree. And I like what you shared in terms of the
00:14:20.340foreign mission field, especially in Islamic countries and cultures that, again, that's a
00:14:30.940perfect example of those who do not have the luxury to debate this particular issue. And I
00:14:35.900think in the West, we need to come to those similar terms and recognizing that secularism
00:14:42.060is quickly becoming a comparable threat to what Islam is in other countries, that as
00:14:52.160we look at the West, if we're to analyze things properly and honestly, and we run through
00:15:01.940the statistics, we run through the numbers, and if we actually don't include in those
00:15:07.220numbers false churches prosperity gospel preaching heretical churches and we actually just look at
00:15:14.300true churches within the bounds of orthodoxy in the west with the rise of the nuns you know those
00:15:21.520who would prescribe to no religious affiliation I think that the west is quickly becoming comparable
00:15:28.380to the east and other places that have whether a pagan culture or is Islamic culture and so if we
00:15:36.500if we think of secularism in those terms, and we think that, um, that the West is no longer in its
00:15:42.420heyday of Christendom, uh, certainly there are many, uh, um, still remnants of Christendom that
00:15:47.960we often take for granted. Um, but, but we're no longer in the heyday of, of Christendom and
00:15:54.260Christendom is eroding. Foundations are being destroyed. Secularism is a formidable enemy,
00:16:01.000quickly becoming comparable to Islam, for example, then I think we need to employ wartime
00:16:10.820strategies and not peacetime strategies. And in wartime strategies, there should be an extra
00:16:21.620willingness to form alliances, right? That Americans may not be particularly fond of the
00:16:27.180French. Um, but, but if Great Britain is, uh, is, is on our doorstep, uh, then all of a sudden
00:16:35.420an American French alliance, you know, it may, may make sense. Um, even if we perhaps regret it
00:16:41.400at a later point. And so I think that we're in that kind of moment. Um, one quick question on,
00:16:47.660on that end. I, I have the sense that secularism, that things are going to get worse before they
00:16:53.160get better in the, in the short run with secularism in the West. In the long run though, if Christ does
00:17:00.300tarry for 10,000, 20,000, 30,000 years, who, who knows the day or the hour, but, but if that is
00:17:06.400a possibility, I have the sense that, that secularism, although a formidable enemy and a
00:17:12.480dragon of, of significant size, that it's, it's, it's going to get a little bit stronger, but
00:17:19.220quickly, I think will be slain. I think that there's a sense in which there's, there's worse
00:17:24.600things yet to come, but, but also if, if we think in the next 50 years, but if we think in the next
00:17:29.200500 years, I think 500 years from now, our, our great, great, great grandchildren will go on field
00:17:36.160trips to museums and look at Jackson Pollock paintings. And, and the teacher will inspire
00:17:41.820the children to collectively laugh at the absurdity of what we once thought was beautiful.
00:17:47.280and, and the, the fruit of secular. So I think 50 years of secularism, I, I'm not particularly
00:17:53.020encouraged for my children and grandchildren's sake, uh, 500 years of secularism thinking of
00:17:58.380my great, great, great, great, great grandchildren. I think that they will be laughing at the corpse
00:18:03.780of this dragon that's been sufficiently slain back to Islam. If I was to write a fictional book,
00:18:10.660a fantasy, um, of post-millennial, you know, progressive, gradual conquering of Christ through
00:18:16.980the church in the earth um and and the progression of chrysidom i have a sense and i'm curious if you
00:18:23.300feel the same dr boot that i think islam may be one of the last dragons to be slain what do you
00:18:29.540what do you think well all of these things as you say do reach a tipping point um the the power of
00:18:38.660secularism um and the power of islam their influence i think both have the same root they
00:18:45.460they ate they copy um christianity with but with key differences and it's their it's their similarity
00:18:54.660to christian truth that gives them their cultural force so secularism was really an attempt to strip
00:19:02.020um to maintain the to to maintain the the liberties freedoms um institutional life uh the um
00:19:11.220The prosperity of, you know, free markets of a Christian order, the branches without the root. In some respects, Marxism is a secular eschatology. It posits a utopian future by the creative work of man.
00:19:35.360And so it strips out. It keeps on to this idea of it holds on to this idea of progress in history, but it strips the Christ out of it and strips the word of God out of it.
00:19:47.400Secularism has really sought to do that. It wanted to maintain the fruits. It didn't want the root.
00:19:52.880now islam again is uh is a apes christianity it's a it's a counterfeit but it has certain
00:20:01.360similarities and that gives it its sense of cultural force but because of the nature and
00:20:07.440character of islam the seeds of its own destruction are built into it um you're seeing even in the west
00:20:13.440now the muslims having great difficulty retaining their own children in the faith in the western
00:20:19.360context. You have a place like Iran, where you have huge levels of conversion to Christianity.
00:20:28.240And the Ayatollah needs to keep his foot on the necks of the people. And that is similar
00:20:35.360throughout much of the Islamic world, which has been for a long time in a state of decay.
00:20:40.640So I'm not sure. When you look at it, Islam is definitely a major threat,
00:20:47.180uh whether it's a greater threat than a sort of revival of paganism uh which is a sort of
00:20:54.460and i would include secularism in that secularism is a form of paganism and it's becoming more and
00:20:59.800more spiritualized um they are they're both uh significant uh they're both significant threats
00:21:08.260that neither are going anywhere soon um both are totalitarian in their outlook uh in in terms of
00:21:16.640their view of the state. Both are concerned to deny certain critical freedoms that are
00:21:25.300fundamental in the Christian view of reality. And I think that really they're both utopian too.
00:21:35.680Secularism does believe in man building his own future, his own prosperous future without God,
00:21:45.120and believes that by right now in our current secular moment,
00:21:49.040we believe that by a grand leveling, a utopia,
00:21:54.080even if we don't use the term, a kind of utopia is going to emerge.
00:21:59.640Islam, likewise, in the Ummah, the world Islam,
00:22:04.860that through the imposition of Sharia,
00:22:07.300a kind of utopian order is going to emerge through world Islam.
00:22:13.980um so that they they bear similarities to one another their their cultural strength is in their
00:22:20.860aping of christianity but there's always a tipping point and i think that um it's very difficult to
00:22:26.620say isn't it i mean you've kind of wrestled with that question right there it's difficult to say
00:22:31.680when we will reach that point where we're going over the edge and um people start to by the grace
00:22:39.600of god uh begin to look back with some sense of longing and yearning to a christian past and god
00:22:46.600you know by his grace begins to pour out his spirit is it 20 years is it 50 years is it 100
00:22:53.280years um we don't know uh the lord knows um but um in the meantime facing down those giants those
00:23:03.340dragons as you say is is a greater priority than dotting all the i's and crossing all the t's of
00:23:08.760a very tidy theology right amen uh just for to address the devil's advocate um some would be
00:23:17.500listening to everything you're saying and i think they would say well you know you said that
00:23:21.880secularism is totalitarian um in the sense that it's it's it forces uh it's coercion and islam
00:23:29.880Certainly, Sharia law is coercion, but you and I would both prescribe to theonomy, and there would be some who don't like our position, and that would claim, you know, some who even are Christian would claim that what we're advocating for is just another form of coercion.
00:23:50.640And so, you know, that as post-millennial theonomic reformed Christians, I think, you know, the devil's advocate would say, you know, they would say, how is what you're trying to accomplish any different than ushering in some kind of earthly utopia through force?
00:24:13.040How would you address that counter, that pushback?
00:24:18.600Yeah, first, the Christian way, the biblical way is regeneration, not revolution. And, or the, which is, you know, and I would include Islam in that revolutionary model of, you know, conquest by the sword, by violence, by force.
00:24:39.040The reason that secularism is totalitarian is its view of the state.
00:24:45.560The state is the all-encompassing, all-inclusive institution.
00:24:50.100And it begins to, you can see it, you observe the West today, the state now dominates more
00:24:55.680and more areas of people's lives, begins to redefine the family, seeks to control the
00:46:11.000And I would say that that's a pattern that we continue to see throughout this gospel
00:46:15.340age, whenever the gospel comes for the first time to a first generation.
00:46:19.280So whether it be Judaism at the time of Christ, or whether it be an Islamic nation, or whether
00:46:25.760it be some other pagan nation, when the gospel first comes to bear, we do see it being ordinary,
00:46:32.460the splitting of households, that a husband is saved and a wife is not, that a sibling is saved
00:46:38.520and another is not, that the children are saved, but the parents are not, or vice versa. But on
00:46:43.040the heels of multiple generations of Christendom, that should no longer be the pattern. I think that
00:46:50.540you should expect in in countries and cultures that have been dominated by by christian ethic
00:46:56.380christian gospel christian preaching christian culture for centuries we should expect that by
00:47:03.300faithful parenting covenant nurture we should have covenant succession an expectation that
00:47:09.500god would save not just some or most but all of our children and i think the baptist the
00:47:14.820covenantal reform 1689 baptist has just as much claim on that doctrine of covenant succession
00:47:20.660as the presbyterian tell me i'm crazy you know i um you know i i like that i think this is an
00:47:28.600i'm i'm encouraged that we're singing from the same hymn sheet on this and i do think it's an
00:47:32.920indication that actually we're in a time when you know faithful reformed people can get closer and
00:47:39.680closer together on this on the significance of of the covenant i mentioned that i had served in
00:47:46.040in both baptistic and paedo-baptist churches when i planted westminster chapel in in toronto
00:47:53.360uh about um where was 2008 so 14 15 years ago now i had initially had conversations with the
00:48:02.900with the anglicans because that's where i in uh in in in london and england that had been where i
00:48:08.480had been uh more familiar with pastoral ministry but i very quickly discovered that that was going
00:48:13.820to be essentially impossible because of the episcopal the state of the episcopal church in
00:48:19.380in uh in north america it was at a time when it was all beginning to uh to to move in a strongly
00:48:25.360liberal direction and fall apart so so that never happened so the so the plant ended up being a bit
00:48:30.620of a coalition of the willing and it was a baptist movement that um wanted to uh come alongside this
00:48:37.640vision that i put together a plant team and we have this vision for the church plant it's actually
00:48:43.800in a conservative evangelical baptistic movement that said we would love to stand with you in this
00:48:48.900um and so i thought well uh you know who is the lord brought uh along alongside us right now and
00:48:57.640i had some interesting conversations early on because this particular movement that i won't
00:49:01.760name on the podcast but this particular movement uh it's uh it's it's sort of confession of faith
00:49:08.820it's uh it's peculiar commitments uh opened with uh this this statement the church of jesus christ
00:49:16.520consists of all fully immersed believers um and um uh it was a holdover from uh you know from a very
00:49:25.460very sort of strongly uh you know baptists in in canada seeking to find their identity their
00:49:33.020peculiar identity in the practice of of water baptism by by full immersion and i i said to
00:49:39.320them i said look you know i'm i'm i want to to to to to work with you this is it this is i think a
00:49:45.120god-ordained coalition of the willing but so i cannot sign up to that um i can't possibly sign
00:49:51.760up to that statement statement of faith i can't agree with how can how can we say that george
00:49:55.540whitfield and jonathan edwards and um and john wesley and and um william wilberforce and many
00:50:04.900of the puritans and and and uh on and and charles hodge and benjamin warfield these people are not
00:50:12.800part of the church of jesus christ because they're not fully immersed of course the absurdity of the
00:50:17.840position was very obvious to them as we talked about it at the table and they said well no you
00:50:21.680you can just ignore that um and uh you know just um you know and i said i want to receive
00:50:29.120i want to be able to receive people who have been baptized as infants i said this is a church plant
00:50:35.880in a in a pagan one of the most pagan cosmopolitan cities in north america perhaps the most
00:50:42.420multicultural in the world i said this is not a time for us to be all saying we all want to
00:50:47.160pee in our own paddling pools i said this needs to be uh i need to be able to receive people
00:50:54.820who were baptized in evangelical reformed homes as infants who believe that their baptism is valid
00:51:04.000and uh they they stand by that baptism and they want to become members or want to move into
00:51:09.420show promise to move into leadership positions i want to be able to receive them
00:51:13.180And, you know, I was given dispensation to do that. Periodically, I was accused of dry baptisms of infants, because when we dedicated children, I would use a bottle of oil and make the sign of the cross on there.
00:51:28.620So I had quite an anglican thing to do. And there was this dry baptism. I was careful with the wording. It was it was that covenant succession.
00:51:36.740That's the kind of wording that I used. In the ideal world, this wasn't possible in that context because we were part of a large family of Baptist churches.
00:51:47.500And I wanted to respect and honor the fact that the practice of baptism in the life of the church needed to be in keeping with the fellowship we were part of.
00:51:56.520that is the God-honoring, was the God-honoring thing to do. In my ideal world, I would have gone
00:52:04.640with an approach, because we had elders in the church that were both Paedo-Baptist and
00:52:09.420Credo-Baptist, and lived together in joy and harmony in the leadership of the church. I would
00:52:17.580have ideally liked to have gone with the conscience of the parents, that I would have gone with what
00:52:24.680what is it that the parents believe that because we had people from the church of about 400 in the
00:52:32.140end by the time that I moved on and we had people from a variety of different backgrounds in
00:52:38.540different places some people wanted to reaffirm their baptismal vows of their parents by full
00:52:44.520immersion so it wasn't a re-baptism as such it was a reaffirmation this is something that some
00:52:48.980of the reformed Anglican churches do in England if somebody feels they were christened by
00:52:53.740unbelieving parents by an unbelieving pastor or vicar um they want to reaffirm uh something so
00:53:01.320there are a number of things that could be done there and there were some people that wanted to
00:53:04.540do that but there were others that had the conviction that no they're they're presbyterian
00:53:09.600or anglican uh faithful parents it was a legitimate baptism and so uh in in the ideal world for me at
00:53:17.320this cultural moment and at this time in which we're we're we're living especially in these sort
00:53:23.060of missional environments in inner city metropolitan centers where we need to be
00:53:30.440bringing God's people together around the truth of the covenant, his law, the lordship of Christ,
00:53:35.840the fullness of the gospel, the reformed faith. I think that to me, and I know I probably will
00:53:42.820upset people on both sides of the aisle saying that, but that's really what ideally I would
00:53:47.520have wanted to do is is is you know uh affirm the conscience the conviction of the family the
00:53:53.620parents and gone with the mode of baptism that uh that that they were requesting amen yeah i i take
00:54:01.080a similar position i'm not quite to the point where you are but i take a similar position in
00:54:04.940the sense that i i love how you just said mode of baptism so i'm unique again among 1689 baptists
00:54:10.520in the sense that we will receive a sprinkling infant baptism.
00:54:17.300So we have multiple members of our church, adult members,
00:54:20.300not just speaking of their kids, but adult members of our church
00:54:22.580who they themselves were baptized in a gospel preaching church as an infant.
00:54:29.340And even our statement of faith, so we have two statements of faith by design.
00:54:34.080We have what we call our general statement of faith,
00:54:37.400and then we have the church's specific statement of doctrine.
00:54:40.520general statement of faith, specific statement of doctrine. The specific statement of doctrine,
00:54:44.840as it currently stands, is the 1689 Second London Baptist Confession of Faith. And that is,
00:54:50.440we have very specific language in our constitution of the church that says that each member of the
00:54:56.020church must recognize the specific statement of doctrine that is the 1689, but that they're not
00:55:01.960required necessarily to affirm it. And we bifurcate what it is to recognize versus affirm.
00:55:07.480recognized means that they're not going to be visibly and audibly, you know, vocally divisive
00:55:13.940over it. And they would come to expect that the public preaching ministry of the church would be
00:55:18.520within the theological guardrails set forth by the 1689. We do require officers of the church,
00:55:25.320any ordained officer, which for us, the diaconate would be an ordained officer of the church. And
00:55:30.220we would hold to a male diaconate just as we hold to a male eldership, but male elders and deacons
00:55:35.900ordained by the church, they are required not only to recognize, but also affirm the specific
00:55:43.020statement of doctrine that is the 1689. But members of the church only have to recognize
00:55:49.500that specific statement of doctrine 1689, but they must affirm another statement of faith,
00:55:55.680which is our general statement of faith. And it's just that by design, it is general. It is
00:56:00.380so intentionally narrow that no non-Christian could affirm it. A Muslim cannot affirm it. A
00:56:05.760Buddhist cannot affirm it. An atheist cannot affirm it. A Roman Catholic actually would not
00:56:10.560be able to affirm it. But a Presbyterian can affirm it. An Anglican can affirm it. A Baptist
00:56:17.080can affirm it. An Arminian could affirm it. A Calvinist could affirm it. Continuationist could
00:56:22.860affirm it. Cessationist could affirm it. And so we're intentionally having the statement of faith
00:56:28.800that requires prescription from the members of the church intentionally broader. And so what it
00:56:36.900says in regards to baptism is it simply says that in order to be a member of the church, you must be
00:56:43.220a baptized follower of Jesus. And it makes intentionally no mention of mode. And so what
00:56:54.340I do with that Presbyterian family, that because churches are few and far between right now,
00:56:59.240because we're in a time of war, not a time of peace and solid covenantal reformed theonomic
00:57:04.960post-millennial Kuyperian churches don't currently grow on trees. Um, when a family like that finds
00:57:10.420themselves in our geographic area and they're looking for a church and they can't find a
00:57:15.280Presbyterian church like ours, um, then, and they want to be members in our church. I simply ask
00:57:20.840them, do you believe that your infant baptism of sprinkling in terms of mode, do you believe that
00:57:28.200that was a legitimate baptism? And if they say yes, then what I say is in order to obey the
00:57:35.000teachings of scripture in Galatians, one baptism, one Lord, one faith, I say, well, I am not
00:57:39.920comfortable as a pastor subjecting you to sinning against your own conscience by subjecting you to
00:57:46.600what, what your conscience would see as a second baptism. And so we're going to say that we have
00:57:52.020a difference in mode, but that we both have a baptism. And so therefore we welcome them in as
00:57:57.960members of the church. Now, what I'm not currently able to do in my own conscience is that even if
00:58:03.360the parents' conscience had their own children and wanted them as an infant to receive infant
00:58:09.060baptism, pedo-baptism, the parents' conscience would be clear, but I could not perform, actually
00:58:15.680practice that baptism as a minister. And so I have a Presbyterian minister who is close by,
00:58:22.540who we have a good friendship with. And so I would actually send them over to him
00:58:27.820to receive that infant baptism and then come back to us and the membership residing with us.
00:58:35.480And so that's how I'm navigating it right now. And again, this is not for anybody,
00:58:40.760because I know you and I are both going to get pushback from this episode as relativist or
00:58:44.880whatever um which were not but again my position is i'm not saying that this was um a good position
00:58:51.380to hold 200 years ago and i'm not saying it's a good position to hold 200 years from now as i i
00:58:57.840believe with my heart of hearts that chrysidom was stronger 200 years ago and i believe that
00:59:03.160chrysidom will make a comeback 200 years from now but in this unique moment that we're living in um
00:59:08.800um i what am i what am i going to tell them that you know this couple comes and and i'm not saying
00:59:15.580there's no presbyterian church but this is what they have to choose between joe and you know this
00:59:19.660better than i do they have to choose between the presbyterian church in town that's radical two
00:59:24.880kingdom um um to mystic um not presuppositional no room for van till or bonson or or anything like
00:59:33.740that. So, so they have to choose between a church that is reformed and that, that is
00:59:39.460paedo-baptist that will baptize their children, but then will disciple their children to have
00:59:46.560no influence in culture whatsoever. And, and to not seek to restore Christendom, to, to not seek
00:59:54.600to, to, to engage culturally with, you know, all of Christ for all of us. And so what happens is
01:00:00.360the parents, they're like, we can't do that, Joel. We would rather be in a Baptist Kyperian
01:00:07.520church than a Paedo-Baptist pietist church. We see pietism as actually a bigger threat to our
01:00:14.340children in the long run than a church that won't baptize them. But then the parents sit there with
01:00:19.680their conscience uneasy. And I can see it as they're in terms of their conscience, they're
01:00:25.560foregoing what they see as a commandment from the Lord to choosing not to baptize their children.
01:00:31.300So I send them over to my friend in town so that their conscience can be at ease. But then they
01:00:36.480can be a part of our church. And that's just, I don't know what else to do in this current moment.
01:00:40.520I don't think it will always be the case, but I think it's currently where we're at. And I know
01:00:44.660that a lot of my 1689 friends would say that I'm compromised on this issue, but I think that
01:00:49.060that history will look back and say, yeah, what Joe and Joel were doing in that moment,
01:00:55.780given the larger context, what was at play was not the ideal position, but probably the lesser
01:01:03.540of the poisons to choose from? Well, I don't think that's a compromised position at all. I think that
01:01:12.680the the um a compromised position uh the um the the experience that you're talking about of people
01:01:20.740coming to the church who are from a a paedo-baptist background but cannot uh stomach the retreatism
01:01:28.920pietism uh sometimes antinomianism in the uh in in the perhaps the paedo-baptist environment
01:01:37.940around the corner was something that we dealt with.
01:01:41.600We had migrants from, for example, in terms of response to lockdowns.
01:01:46.760There were people that came to us from Presbyterian environments
01:01:49.640because they just could not deal with the compromise anymore.
01:01:53.180What do sort of, you know, hardcore credo or paedo-baptist people
01:02:01.820on either side of the aisle who will not bend and flex on what is ultimately a secondary issue
01:02:09.780in in situations of critical missional importance are going to do with families like that just turn
01:02:19.600them away and I think you make a critical point that you cannot force people's consciences and
01:02:26.480actually what you described as your practice is exactly what we did at Westminster when I said
01:02:31.220that my my ideal would be able to follow the conscience of the parents that was not what we
01:02:37.420were able to practice um because of the you know our desire to um be faithful to the uh the community
01:02:45.560the baptistic community that we we were part of um that it would be you know to be a bridge too
01:02:53.220far to do that but we did have situations where we had reformed presbyterian families in the church
01:03:00.780who had a child or they were reformed Dutch reformed and they were in the uh the church
01:03:07.260and they wanted their child baptized and so um we helped uh with arrangements um for that to
01:03:16.000for that to happen um and then but they continued to be worshippers members of our church
01:03:21.400and uh I think that um that's what we in terms of the broader unity of evangelical
01:03:28.660called reformed believers who love the lord love his covenant i want to love and serve one another
01:03:35.040in a time of war as you say i think this is important and until at the end of the day
01:03:40.700um look we have we know and this is really my last remark on the on the issue but
01:03:46.280we we both know that there are godly faithful covenantal uh reformed and if you want to add
01:03:55.460um some of the other distinctives um you know theonomic um optimistic eschatology so the
01:04:01.820postmill presuppositional uh kyperian you can add all of these additional descriptors
01:04:07.580on both sides of this discussion and i think that that many of these issues though like the one you
01:04:15.260mentioned there for example that like a two kingdoms issue uh today to my mind is a much more
01:04:22.680critical and vital issue for the church at war than the mode of baptism uh and uh and i think
01:04:32.280that until we are in a time of peace where if the lord would would grant it we could come to one
01:04:39.940mind on the mode and timing of baptism until that time comes i think we have to develop ways
01:04:47.480of building unity in the local church on this issue because as you say the churches that are
01:04:54.360truly faithful and committed to the reformed faith today are increasingly scarce and those
01:05:00.540that will be prepared to confront prophetically culture and uh engage uh all of you know as you
01:05:07.960said um all of christ for all of life in its totality and take the totality of his word
01:05:13.580seriously they're not growing on trees so what are we going to do with our faithful brothers and
01:05:17.780sisters in those different environments surely the attitude of christ the attitude of the apostles
01:05:24.020would have been that i think the one that you know without wanting to uh uh you know place
01:05:30.280ourselves on the side of the angels automatically i think that's the one that that would have been
01:05:35.700pursued by um uh the the apostles were this question a a matter of a matter of division
01:05:43.400in their time um these this is a secondary issue where godly men and women of faith and truth
01:05:50.980and like commitment have differed for centuries and um we are in we're at defcom three possibly
01:05:59.800DEFCON 4 right now in the West. So this is surely not the time to focus on division over secondary
01:06:08.020issues when we've got the battle of a lifetime to struggle with for our children for the future.
01:06:14.360Amen. Amen. I'll let that be the final word. So let's go ahead and do this now.
01:06:19.420In light of everything that we've been talking about, we're not relativists. We're not saying
01:06:25.660that baptism doesn't matter. It certainly matters. We're not even saying that moat doesn't matter.
01:06:29.800Although we are distinguishing baptism as a whole from mode of baptism.
01:06:36.800But even with mode of baptism, we're not saying it doesn't matter.
01:06:39.420What we're saying that a lot of guys don't get right now is that that matters a great deal.
01:06:45.920But this two kingdom, radical two kingdom pietism is a bigger problem.
01:06:52.120And so there are very few, and speaking about how rare it is right now, it doesn't grow on trees.
01:06:56.760There are very few churches, but there are also very few programs and trainings and resources to, to get these things in your bloodstream, the optimistic eschatology, theonomic thought, all of Christ for all of life, Kuyperianism, presuppositionalism from your, from your apologetic to your, to your ethics, to, to markets and economies and vocation of full orbed.
01:07:26.760straight whiskey no chaser christian faith you're doing that joe better than than just about anyone
01:07:33.820that i know so so bless our listeners with with an opportunity with some of the things that they
01:07:39.160could partner with you with well you're very generous to me joel and i i appreciate it um
01:07:46.120and um i'm i'm grateful to see the way that the lord is using you and raising you up there in
01:07:52.000texas and in america with uh with a with a voice on these issues and um and i think uh that the
01:07:58.520lord is going to continue to to bless what you're doing as you're as you're faithful to him um
01:08:04.040because fruit always follows faithfulness um the um i would want to let people know about an
01:08:10.760opportunity a couple of opportunities that they have to get equipped um in this you say the moment
01:08:16.880of this moment of cultural struggle how do we begin to develop the christian mind how do we
01:08:22.680um uh over over a period of time begin to uh get the tools necessary for this kingdom struggle
01:08:31.440that we're in i will just just want to mention two opportunities that the ezra institute uh has
01:08:36.560on offer um amongst several others in in the us right now so for those listeners who don't know
01:08:43.280The Ezra Institute was started in Canada, but we recently opened offices in the United States and in the United Kingdom in process and our offices in Tennessee.
01:08:56.520But the the programs are happening in various parts of the US.
01:09:02.860But this year, there is a really exciting opportunity. Our flagship training program is a 10 day intensive Christian worldview, cultural apologetics, residential program.
01:09:16.700and it's aimed at 19 through 40 year olds thereabouts so students and younger professionals
01:09:24.560to develop um a robust biblical world and life view and a cultural apologetics so we deal with
01:09:32.040things like law politics education christian apologetics church and state these kinds of
01:09:37.640questions we have fellows from um from around the world that come and teach people if they go to our
01:09:44.020website ezrainstitute.com they can look at our fellows and and it's not just our fellows we have
01:09:49.580other guests speaking at these programs um this year we've got people like james white uh joining
01:09:56.340us and many others um and we are going to be in uh chatsworth georgia for the runner academy it's
01:10:06.200it's it's we shorten it to the runner academy it's called the h evan runner international
01:10:11.140Academy for Cultural Leadership. It's named after an American philosopher who was a reformed thinker
01:10:19.240and Kuyperian and was wanting to advance the Christian world and life view. And so we name
01:10:25.760it after him. We shorten it to the Runner Academy. So that is May 7th through 17th. May 7th through
01:10:32.02017th 19 to 40 year olds chats with georgia 10 days residential fellowship teaching fun it's an
01:10:42.500amazing time go to ezrainstitute.com and you can click on the runner academy and then find all the
01:10:50.240details about the program there we would we would love to see a full program of american students
01:10:58.340young professionals gathering together with like-minded people to get equipped so I'd really
01:11:03.400encourage people to look at that and the other opportunity is in the summertime not the spring
01:11:10.100that's in July and I'm blanking on the date off the top of my head but that program is is happening
01:11:19.280in the US as well and it's called the worldview leadership academy so we so the runner academy
01:11:25.720is for our 19 through 40 year olds our worldview leadership academy is a one-week program for 14
01:11:34.280through 18 year olds so there's got to be parents or grandparents listening to this program we think
01:11:39.260i need my children to get a biblical world and life view and a cultural apologetic training so
01:11:45.860they're grounded in the faith they can face all the ideological challenges of the day they can
01:11:51.840develop an effective vindication of uh the gospel uh an effective vindication of the christian view
01:11:58.880of life they can begin to understand human identity sexuality law politics education the arts
01:12:04.220all in terms of a christian world and life view lordship of jesus christ over every area of life
01:12:10.060so again if you go to the website ezrainstitute.com click on you'll see in the on the landing page
01:12:16.400there worldview leadership academy click on that and you'll be able to find our program that's
01:12:21.260happening in the summer in the usa this year as well so those two programs i i just thank you for
01:12:26.960the opportunity joel to mention those absolutely runner international academy for cultural
01:12:31.940leadership the worldview leadership academy for teens um go to our website get signed up you won't
01:12:38.780regret regret that you did no way i you definitely won't regret it i just can't this whole time i'm
01:12:44.800just imagining how different my life would have been if for youth camp in the summer when i was
01:12:50.240in high school, I was going to what you just described. I'm thinking my oldest is five right
01:12:55.480now. And I'm thinking, I wonder if she could hang. I wonder if Joe would take her as a five-year-old
01:13:00.180if I could send her. But yeah, the grandparents and parents listening to this, anybody who has
01:13:04.940a teenager. It's not all lectures for the World of Leadership Academy is demanding. There are
01:13:12.560lectures, but there's lots of activity and fun thrown in there as well. But yeah, sorry, I
01:13:16.920interrupted you joe go ahead no no no that's fine i was just thinking that man i when when my kids
01:13:21.580are of that age i that sounds amazing i i think that they would yeah it was just so fruitful for
01:13:28.880a teenager i'm just thinking you know i came into these doctrines in my 30s my early 30s
01:13:34.020and the last i became reformed when i was you know calvin you know embracing the the tulip when i was
01:13:41.16021, you know, so it's been 15 years. Um, but, but some of these other things and understand,
01:13:48.500you know, a Kuyperian post-millennial theonomic, um, presuppositional, I,
01:13:54.340Calvinism, 15 years, these other doctrines, five, it's really been five years. And, uh,
01:14:01.240I'm just thinking, man, if I had, if I, I didn't even know they existed. If I had heard about
01:14:04.940these things when I was 14 years old, I just can't imagine, you know, I just can't imagine.