The NXR Podcast - THEOLOGY APPLIED - The “Adoption Tweet” Heard Round The World

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00:00:24.060 review on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks. So apparently, Eric Kahn hates adoption. That

00:00:31.680 notorious troublemaker on the Twitter streets? Or does he? Well, we'll find out in today's episode

00:00:37.680 of Theology Applied. Applying God's Word to every aspect of life. This is Theology Applied.

00:00:45.480 All right, welcome back to another episode of Theology Applied.

00:00:54.060 I'm your host, Pastor Joel Webin, and today I am privileged to welcome to the show for,

00:00:59.660 I don't know, the 17th, 18th time.

00:01:01.860 It's not that many, but it's a lot.

00:01:03.160 We've got Eric Kahn from the Hard Man Podcast.

00:01:05.700 Eric, thanks for coming on.

00:01:07.680 Awesome, Joel.

00:01:08.320 Yeah, thanks for having me.

00:01:09.240 Always a pleasure to be back.

00:01:11.160 I feel like, you know, a fellow troublemaker.

00:01:14.920 Fellow troublemaker, yeah.

00:01:16.440 Speaking of trouble, so I've prepared from the outset of this show.

00:01:20.640 I didn't want to forget any of my notes, so I've actually got it on my phone.

00:01:24.240 But there's some questions I don't want to read.

00:01:25.540 They're simple, they're short.

00:01:26.960 And so I'd like to just try to get all of them out and then let you respond.

00:01:30.600 The first one that I have is, why are you the way that you are?

00:01:34.520 And then also, what gives you the right?

00:01:39.660 And then, who do you think you are?

00:01:41.700 If you could just respond to those, Eric, and just let our listeners, you know, why

00:01:45.460 are you the way that you are and what gives you the right and why do you hate adoption?

00:01:49.300 You know, so go ahead.

00:01:50.820 Everything that you love, I hate.

00:01:54.060 You just need to know that.

00:01:55.480 Yeah.

00:01:56.120 Yeah, no, that's exactly right.

00:01:57.340 Some of us are just like Toby from The Office.

00:01:59.140 Right.

00:01:59.420 And we can't help it.

00:02:00.400 We were born this way.

00:02:01.840 Love is love.

00:02:02.720 We were born this way.

00:02:03.980 You can't hate us.

00:02:05.860 Yeah, but people do.

00:02:06.900 People hate me because, you know, the fact of the matter is that my wife has never been

00:02:13.480 permitted in the course of our marriage to read a single book, right?

00:02:17.920 You know, and that's what 750,000 people think online, you know, and likewise, as it comes

00:02:24.640 to your particular situation, people think that you hate adoption.

00:02:28.200 So explain yourself.

00:02:30.080 I know you don't.

00:02:30.840 I was adopted.

00:02:31.600 I like to, at some point in this episode, I'm going to share my story with that, but

00:02:34.200 I knew what you were getting at because I know how to read and do other things good too uh you

00:02:38.460 know for the center for kids who don't read good and want to do everything's good too so I I know

00:02:42.820 how to read and but I think you know to be fair I also it's not just that I know how to read and

00:02:46.820 read in a charitable light and not the worst possible you know way you know but it's it's

00:02:52.120 also I know you and you know some people some you know a lot of people probably just don't know you

00:02:57.200 and they're like oh he's hating on adoption and this and that like what were you getting at with

00:03:01.120 that tweet, the infamous tweet? Yeah, so a big part of it, you know, we addressed it a little

00:03:07.140 bit in a forthcoming King's Hall episode, but really so much of what I address and what Brian

00:03:14.060 has addressed, the things on modesty, most of it comes from either something in, you know, that we

00:03:19.980 see online among a Christian community or that we are dealing with in counseling or conversations

00:03:25.740 with friends across the country. Usually there's some personal element to it. So particularly with

00:03:30.860 adoption um i have over the years dealt with a lot of people uh we were all young in the oos

00:03:38.100 and part of the young restless and reformed and particularly in the sbc and we were in kentucky

00:03:43.420 uh in you know 07 to 2012 uh the emphasis and the push for adoption was so great yes that you

00:03:51.840 actually had people who would forsake natural children biological children they would forsake

00:03:57.140 having children so that they could adopt you know two black kids from uganda right it was just like

00:04:01.740 almost uh a just such a designer thing to do that it was very common and part of the reason when you

00:04:09.780 say forsake like because i know some of these stories like people literally getting vasectomies

00:04:13.820 when they're perfectly healthy and able to conceive yeah but yeah that's right or or they

00:04:18.660 say hey we're gonna go on the birth control pill for five years so we can adopt first

00:04:22.120 yep um but but yeah i was talking to a friend the other day in response to this and he said

00:04:27.080 no no no it's this is true he said i have multiple friends who have said we've we've gotten permanently

00:04:32.200 fixed there's too many orphans in the world right uh and and it's irresponsible to have children

00:04:37.820 is what they were saying so i've seen a lot of this going on talking to people in counseling

00:04:43.020 situations and quite frankly uh talking to people who have got burned by the rhetoric of the of the

00:04:49.460 young, restless, and reformed about adoption. So adopting kids and it going very, very poorly,

00:04:56.060 what people didn't see in all the fiasco on Twitter was there were scores of people emailing,

00:05:02.800 sending direct messages, going on Facebook to message me saying, you're so right. My family

00:05:07.600 was destroyed by adopting three teenage black girls and it tore our family apart. And you're 1.00

00:05:14.820 absolutely right. And we felt like we had a moral obligation to do it because that's really what

00:05:18.580 these guys are saying. And they didn't want to go. The one guy told me, he said, I don't want

00:05:23.100 to go online and share this because I know I'm going to be crucified for saying that adoption

00:05:28.020 isn't a sacrament of the church. Okay. And that's how a lot of people are actually treating this

00:05:33.240 subject. I actually equated it to the Crusades. I happened to be studying this and they were told,

00:05:40.220 the Crusaders were told, if you go on a crusade, all your past sins will be forgiven. You'll be

00:05:43.760 in an elite class, just like the monks and some of the priests. You'll be an elite class of

00:05:48.140 christian and i think adoption for many people it was treated that way like you'll be in the upper

00:05:53.540 tier of christian christianity and christendom if you are one of these you know almost like

00:05:58.620 sainted people who've adopted and i also think joel this is why it it blew up because number

00:06:04.340 one misreading but there are a lot of moms and a lot of dads who have adopted and they thought i

00:06:09.580 was saying adoption is bad you did a dumb unwise thing which of course isn't isn't uh isn't the

00:06:15.320 case. I don't think that, but I just think it's an issue that we shouldn't place moral obligation

00:06:19.720 on. We should say, if you want to do this, that can be a good and righteous thing. It is not

00:06:25.980 mandated by scripture. And that's the point. Right. Amen. Yep. You said it's not mandated

00:06:31.340 by scripture. It's not mandated by the gospel. And, you know, even with that, like I'm able to

00:06:36.540 parse out, you know, because again, I'm able to read and, and also, you know, again, you know,

00:06:40.980 the animosity, it is a bias. And so I'll admit that like one, I'm able to read, but it's not

00:06:45.480 just that I'm just so wonderfully objective. Um, it's also that I don't hate you. And a lot of

00:06:49.580 people do like that. I mean, that is what it comes down to. Like a lot of people, it's, it's not

00:06:53.540 that there's two kinds of people. There are stupid people who can't read, but, but it's not 0.99

00:06:57.500 just stupidity. It's also, um, people who actually can read, um, but, but are unwilling. They won't, 1.00

00:07:04.160 um, because they've already made up their mind about the individual who wrote a particular

00:07:08.440 tweet, in this case, you, and they've decided that anything that comes from you is terrible

00:07:13.740 because they really don't like you at the end of the day. So anyways, but you said, you know,

00:07:18.140 it's not mandated. Adoption is not mandated by the gospel. And so I'm able to, you know,

00:07:22.200 to parse that out and say, um, adoption is not mandated by the gospel. And yet when it happens

00:07:28.680 by the grace of God, it can be a picture of the gospel.

00:07:32.280 Sure. Absolutely.

00:07:33.320 In the same way that we could say marriage is not mandated by the gospel, but it's a picture of the gospel.

00:07:39.400 And that we could say, I think, more strongly because it's explicit in Scripture, thinking of, you know, Ephesians 5.

00:07:44.980 But even then, like if it's mandated by the gospel, then, you know, then the Apostle Paul was in rebellion to the gospel.

00:07:51.380 And I don't believe that's the case.

00:07:53.060 You know, Jesus himself is in rebellion to the gospel.

00:07:55.600 So something can be a display or a picture of the gospel without being a gospel imperative in and of itself.

00:08:02.500 And so now the imperative that we would say comes from scripture is that the church as an entity, collective, does have a moral obligation under God.

00:08:11.960 It is a command that they care for orphans and widows.

00:08:15.920 But I think that's part of the problem also is that when you take a universal command given to the body of Christ, but then it becomes particularly applied and imposed on individual Christian families.

00:08:29.660 um there is a way to uh for you as an individual member of a local body of christ and then that

00:08:37.240 local body of christ being a member of the larger universal body of christ um diligently and lovingly

00:08:44.200 caring for orphans and widows without you personally as a household having ever adopted one

00:08:49.880 and well yeah big time and i i think the other thing is james 127 that was one of the things

00:08:55.380 that people were saying is oh you reject james 127 of course not um but i think even historically

00:09:00.820 you can look at the church uh great men like george mueller they had orphanages in fact if

00:09:06.280 you have troubled teens particularly when there's uh you know delinquency and sexual misconduct it

00:09:12.560 might actually be more beneficial this gets to the wisdom part of it it might actually be more

00:09:17.420 beneficial to put boys in an all boys orphanage and girls you know in texas i know is one big

00:09:23.280 place where this happens they do have boys and girls homes and there's a reason that they do

00:09:27.080 that and it would actually be unwise and detrimental to bring them into many homes it would disrupt

00:09:33.260 birth order and this was the other thing that a lot of people missed you always hear the positive

00:09:39.400 stories about adoption right but when when i'm counseling and i'm talking to people and they're

00:09:46.100 like you know there's when you have teenage daughters and you have an adopted child who is

00:09:51.160 the same age, there become sexual problems in the home, particularly if there was abuse

00:09:57.360 in the adopted child's childhood and there's like severe sexual problems.

00:10:03.400 So it's like these are issues that have to be thought through with wisdom.

00:10:08.180 Even one of the things that got brought up was, well, the early church was adopting,

00:10:12.720 quote unquote, babies who are being outcasts, thrown away by the Romans.

00:10:18.260 I'd be curious to know if there was a $70,000 per child adoption fee in major agencies who

00:10:23.560 are making a lot of money off of it in that day.

00:10:25.620 I'm guessing it was probably free.

00:10:27.480 Like you went out there and you took them into your home and you cared for them.

00:10:29.840 That's one thing.

00:10:31.760 But a lot of the wisdom related to it is not only your family, but very interesting.

00:10:38.000 A lot of people don't know this.

00:10:39.140 Adoption is an industry.

00:10:40.740 It's business.

00:10:41.960 A $24 billion a year business.

00:10:44.040 And a lot of the people who are writing for these major outlets, whether it's, you know, the ERLC, First Things had some articles about it, adoption being a moral or secondary moral obligation.

00:10:56.500 These people work for adoption agencies.

00:10:58.360 They're in the industry.

00:10:59.320 They make their livelihood from this.

00:11:00.860 So I'm sure many of them have good motives and good intention.

00:11:03.580 But it's wise for us to know, like, they actually benefit from this message that I think what's happened is basically you have a message that is the gospel equals adoption, full stop.

00:11:17.280 And that becomes very problematic.

00:11:20.160 One of the things we've talked about here in our church is Westminster Confession, Chapter 20.

00:11:26.040 we want to not bind the conscience with the commandments of men where scripture does not

00:11:32.560 warrant either explicitly or by good and necessary consequence and the thing i find so interesting

00:11:38.980 about adoption is you do not have a clear command that says thou thou shalt adopt thou must adopt

00:11:44.980 it i think you can the same people though the same people told me you know weeks ago steven

00:11:52.700 outro which was written for the gospel coalition and for desiring god when i say that it's wrong

00:11:58.620 to be a dink and that married christians have an obligation to pursue children he said you are 0.83

00:12:03.680 binding the consciences of christians so why the double standard like you're all for adoption but

00:12:09.260 not for natural children that's a great point yeah yeah and i would say there is a difference

00:12:14.740 and i know you would say this as well like the cultural mandate is actually a moral imperative

00:12:20.140 And that is a scriptural command to be fruitful and multiply.

00:12:25.060 And, you know, so the one who takes a wife, if the Lord does give to a man a wife, he's found a good thing.

00:12:32.100 And if they are able to conceive, I do believe that they have a moral obligation to have children. 0.82

00:12:38.200 Now, I'm not, I wouldn't go as far as some of the quiverful camp and saying that, you know, you must have as many children as you physically can without dying.

00:12:46.780 Um, you know, I, but I do think that, uh, that you should have children, uh, that you should

00:12:52.820 seek to multiply. Um, and that the man who has many is blessed the quiver being full. Uh, but

00:12:59.380 I do think that there can be some wise family planning in there, uh, in ethical ways, uh,

00:13:04.220 nothing that would be, uh, risk, uh, any abortive, um, you know, any abortive, uh, implications or

00:13:10.620 anything like that. Um, but all that being said, uh, the point is that there actually is a command

00:13:15.760 in Genesis to be fruitful and multiply. So the irony is the couple that is willfully choosing

00:13:24.100 not to biologically conceive children because they've opted for adoption instead, I think

00:13:31.160 actually is foregoing a clear command in favor of this imposed, created, manufactured command

00:13:41.100 that's not actually in scripture. So the Bible says that we should care for orphans, but it

00:13:45.360 doesn't tell us particularly how, but the Bible does tell us that we should have kids. And it's

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00:15:41.100 King's Ridge Elderberries. Again, that's tkrfarm.com. Yeah, it's very clear. And I've said

00:15:49.560 with James 127 as well, just like the passage is not calling us to adopt all children, it's not

00:15:55.780 calling us to marry all widows and even scripturally when Paul tells Timothy that whoever

00:16:03.920 does not provide for his own house is worse than an unbeliever and he says in the NASB 95 your own 0.56

00:16:09.940 which is where I got the phrase loving your own literally the words of you know the Paul says 0.99

00:16:15.740 that so but what's interesting is that passes it actually about contextually about widows so his

00:16:22.380 whole point was, if you have widows who have living relatives, the relative before the church

00:16:27.980 has a primary responsibility to care for her. I think it's interesting in America that you have

00:16:35.420 something like the adoption industry, which again, can be a good thing. It's worked out for a lot of

00:16:40.160 people. I'm really grateful for that. Praise God. However, it's a pretty high percentage. I think

00:16:45.900 it's over half of orphans, quote unquote, who have living parents. Well, why are we not saying

00:16:53.640 to them, like, hey, you need to take care of your child. You have an obligation. But I think in

00:17:00.620 America, the bigger problem, sort of at the heart of all of this, and you run into this when you're

00:17:06.060 doing abortion ministry, right? The typical thing is you say, you cannot kill your child. You cannot

00:17:11.480 murder your child. And they will say to you, well, if I can't murder him, then you have to 0.92

00:17:15.680 take all the kids that would be born. No, I don't. That's not my moral

00:17:19.740 responsibility to do that. It's yours. And so I think in a lot of these

00:17:23.440 conversations, what you're getting at is we've lost

00:17:27.200 traditional historic reform doctrine on like,

00:17:31.380 what is the natural family? I mean, anymore, and this is part of the discussion

00:17:35.280 too, if you say your own or your natural family,

00:17:39.160 William Gouge will talk this way.

00:17:40.720 The Puritans will talk this way.

00:17:42.040 Calvin will talk this way.

00:17:43.480 If you say the natural family, you immediately get called a racist or a kinnist. 1.00

00:17:47.340 Right. 0.80

00:17:48.160 And you're like, well, no, these should be clear categories in the mind of the Christian.

00:17:52.260 They're clear in scripture.

00:17:54.060 I actually don't have an obligation to love every neighborhood kid in my neighborhood

00:17:58.240 the same way that I have to love my child.

00:18:00.820 Right.

00:18:01.340 Like these should be clear categories, but unfortunately they're not.

00:18:03.940 So I think what we have to do is continually be pointing back to who has the primary moral responsibility in these situations.

00:18:11.460 Yep, well said.

00:18:12.700 Yeah, we're not good at thinking in categories, the church today.

00:18:16.960 But in addition to that, it's funny, we're not good at thinking in categories.

00:18:21.660 And yet, instinctively, I think that there are a lot of Christians that do have a pretty clear sense of one particular category.

00:18:31.780 and maybe it's subconscious and they couldn't even articulate this, but there's one category

00:18:35.740 that they just instinctively are able to carve out from all of the categories and they've

00:18:40.820 designated it to be despised. And that is the category of nature. What I've noticed over the

00:18:48.820 last few months, you know, so now panning out, getting the 30,000 foot view, taking the heat

00:18:53.060 off of just Eric Kahn, we'll throw it, you know, I'll take a little bit of it myself, you know,

00:18:58.080 and other guys. But there is one common denominator. I don't know if you've noticed this,

00:19:02.300 there's a thread, right? There is a thread. There is a common denominator in many of the things on

00:19:08.880 social media that have been despised by the reform camp, not just last week, but over the past,

00:19:14.700 this whole past year of 2023. And to me, the theme, the name of the game is nature, right? So

00:19:21.640 So the kind of tweets that you can expect massive pushback on, you know, I preached a sermon just a few weeks ago, and it wasn't the whole point of the sermon, but there was a portion of the sermon I was talking about soft men.

00:19:37.600 And then I was talking about, you know, biblical masculinity and wanting to be a hard man who is also a good man, a hard man with a soft heart, you know.

00:19:45.460 And so I was talking about that and I was saying, you know, the part of the problem is this Gnostic disposition that completely severs and divorces the spiritual from the physical. 0.90

00:19:55.340 That what we've done is in defining, you know, biblical masculinity, at least in the past few decades, we've completely severed that from anything physical whatsoever. 0.95

00:20:06.360 Anything that, you know, that a lot of our ancestors would have just instinctively thought of being when they thought of masculinity.

00:20:14.060 So it has nothing to do with working on cars, nothing to do with your ability to fix something when it's broken, nothing to do with physical strength, vitality, nothing to do with being formidable or the ability to hunt or owning weaponry for the purpose of self-defense and protecting others, nothing to do, you know, being a man is, you know, I don't know, it's something to do with this ethereal, spiritual sense of godliness, but it's nothing physical, nothing rooted in nature.

00:20:41.080 and and so so whether we're talking about masculinity and i just mentioned and i and i

00:20:45.340 was really actually ironically soft about it i'm talking about soft men and condemning them but i

00:20:49.520 was soft about it and using my own ailments my own shortcomings and saying you know what like i've

00:20:54.340 got a white collar job i'm a pastor right so i'm like preaching and you know for me a lot of my

00:20:59.420 physical exertion you know my my greatest risk on a day-to-day basis is that my hand you know my

00:21:04.620 wrist starts to cramp as i'm turning a page of a book you know like you know and so like i i was

00:21:09.460 like dogging on myself. I was admitting like, and I said, you know, but I've got a son now

00:21:13.540 and I'm thinking about maybe starting a very part-time business. It could be even five hours

00:21:18.540 a week or something like that, but something that's, that's a painfully practical blue collar,

00:21:23.300 you know, hands in the dirt, physical exertion type of work. If nothing else, not as a, an extra

00:21:28.980 stream of revenue, cause I could come up with another idea, but here's the deal. I could come

00:21:33.060 up with another idea of a stream of, of revenue if I wanted added revenue. But, but it would

00:21:38.040 probably once again be something in that white collar vein it would be something uh that would

00:21:42.700 um it would be something that would preclude my son he wouldn't be able his involvement uh wouldn't

00:21:49.060 wouldn't be uh possible but i want something where like me and my boy like assembling trampolines

00:21:54.240 you know like and having a little service or whatever or installing uh you know tv mounts

00:21:58.960 you know or i i don't just little ideas that i've had whatever it is but it's something where like

00:22:03.340 we have to lift something, pick something up, move something, maybe get outside, get a little

00:22:09.000 bit of sun. And I was thinking for him, for his sake, and then in the sermon I was talking about

00:22:13.360 just that there is a connection with people who are, it's good for the soul, for lack of a better

00:22:22.380 way of saying it. I remember reading a study where it literally showed the statistics of

00:22:28.800 people's voting patterns and show the comparison of how people vote in comparison with how far

00:22:36.580 they live, in a literal sense, how far they live from the ground, from the dirt. And you think of

00:22:44.180 it, it's like, okay, big cities, of course, they're progressive, of course, you know, this and that.

00:22:47.820 But is there something like, I mean, is there a connection with living on the 23rd floor

00:22:52.220 in Manhattan, New York, and literally not being able to touch grass, you know, maybe once a week,

00:22:58.620 you know, when you go to Central Park, you've got no yard, you've got no dirt, you've got no

00:23:02.420 trees, you've got no grass. You don't even know what nature is. Right. And you vote for baby

00:23:07.620 killers. Like maybe that's not a coincidence. Maybe there's actually a real straight line there 0.97

00:23:11.820 between someone who is so far removed from nature that it actually degrades the soul.

00:23:18.720 Maybe that's not God's design. Maybe there's something, maybe there's something off there.

00:23:22.700 So anyways, my point is, you know, with your tweet, I didn't see it as despising adoption.

00:23:27.840 I saw it as a clarion call to caring for our own.

00:23:33.540 And so whether it's masculinity or patriarchy or, you know, like a few weeks ago, here's

00:23:38.720 another example, the, you know, the working out thing, right?

00:23:41.620 So that got like so much attention online, you know, like, and it's so silly seeing pastors

00:23:47.760 come out and thinking that this is like, like they're dunking, like, you know, a pastor

00:23:51.800 coming out and say, well, you know, like godliness is, has nothing to do with working out.

00:23:56.720 And I, you know, I have a steady diet of pizza and Dr. Pepper and haven't lifted a weight in 40 years.

00:24:02.660 You know, it's like, I really?

00:24:04.880 Diabetes for 17 years.

00:24:06.860 Right.

00:24:07.280 It's like, this is like, and they're saying it also like it's a brag. 0.70

00:24:11.020 But my point is, if you want to upset reformed Christians online right now, name of the game. 0.74

00:24:18.780 If that's your goal, all you have to do is just say something practical. 0.70

00:24:23.240 Say something rooted in nature.

00:24:24.680 Men should be strong.

00:24:26.120 Women should ordinarily should have babies and love their children. 0.99

00:24:32.040 You should take care of your own, your kin. 1.00

00:24:34.500 Like say anything.

00:24:35.340 And I was reading about it after your tweet.

00:24:37.460 The church has historically cared for orphans, but primarily the line of defense in terms of triage was it was always it's always starting closest to home.

00:24:46.780 So like, you know, First Timothy five, Paul's primarily talking about widows, but the principle applies with orphans as well.

00:24:53.100 The first line of defense is not the church.

00:24:54.760 It's the nuclear family, then the extended family.

00:24:57.960 So do you have any of your kin, any of your family?

00:25:00.780 The obligation falls on them first so that the church would not be burdened.

00:25:05.020 The church is the final backstop, and the state wasn't even on their radar.

00:25:10.400 But the church would be the final backstop, but it's working out.

00:25:13.500 So first, take care of your children.

00:25:15.560 Second, do you have a niece, and her parents died in an accident?

00:25:19.900 Okay, there's the next step.

00:25:22.120 Do you have a grandson?

00:25:23.300 And it's just working out within your family.

00:25:27.000 So it's your immediate household first, then the members of your family extended.

00:25:32.080 So I think of that even with like snowflakes, you know, like people who have a sister or

00:25:36.740 a brother who did in vitro, you know, and they've got, you know, this many frozen kids.

00:25:42.300 First, preach to your family members that you've got kids on ice.

00:25:45.820 You have incarcerated children who have not done anything wrong.

00:25:49.700 This is against the law of God.

00:25:51.060 This is an atrocity.

00:25:52.060 you need to do everything you can physically. If you're physically able to do it, I understand

00:25:58.300 there's strain and all these things, but whatever you can to get those children off of ice and into

00:26:03.820 your home. If they can't though, I would say that's a great example of the Christian duty.

00:26:08.960 This is my sister or my brother who did this wicked thing in their foolishness or in their 1.00

00:26:14.000 selfishness. And for whatever reason, they're no longer able to, maybe their womb is now closed.

00:26:19.420 they're unable to take these children so i i'm gonna seriously and prayerfully consider that

00:26:25.280 you know but but that's if you look at church history adoption that's i mean even world war

00:26:31.200 one and world war two it's yours the kids you know dad dies in war and they're going to aunt

00:26:35.580 and uncle they're it's all but it's all family your own it's this natural your own family kind

00:26:41.480 of mentality the idea of adopting um uh two two chinese girls from the other side of the world

00:26:48.220 is a foreign concept. Again, not prohibited. And can it be good? Yes. And when it happens in a

00:26:55.280 God-glorifying way, is it a picture of the gospel? Yes. But mandated by the gospel and a first line

00:27:01.160 of defense and the thing that should be heralded as the sainthood of all Christian faith? No.

00:27:06.260 And I agree with you. I think that's done a number on the church. And that's coming from a guy

00:27:10.200 who was adopted and was not extended family with my adoptive parents. And if I wasn't adopted,

00:27:15.200 my life would have been worse. And I'm incredibly grateful for it. But I know how to read and do 1.00

00:27:21.320 other things good, too. Well, yeah, it's interesting, too. I looked this up. So this

00:27:26.940 is orphanages, bear in mind. But this is according to Catholic Relief Services, up to 90%. So 80 to

00:27:34.460 90% of children living in orphanages across the world have at least one living parent.

00:27:39.500 and then and you find the same thing in adoption where it's like there's living parents right

00:27:45.340 there's other family it's also interesting because in the latino communities like if you

00:27:50.000 get pregnant as a teenager the grandparents are going to raise that child right like they have

00:27:54.720 an obligation the other thing that's interesting um you you were talking about physical strength

00:28:00.620 i didn't even put two and two together until you're mentioning this but this week has been

00:28:04.060 adoption everybody and their brother has been dunking on that post and you know um not really

00:28:10.140 refuting it i think it's more like you know ad hominem you're a racist it's the question that i

00:28:15.220 started this episode with it's not yeah it's not dealing with the argumentation of the substance

00:28:18.980 it's just no why are you the way that you are what gives you the right yeah we by the way we

00:28:24.240 hate you but but it is interesting because like last week literally last week uh i think it was

00:28:30.320 like a sunday i posted a picture shooting a pistol and i said you know worship the lord keep your

00:28:36.800 powder dry something like that and um what was interesting is all the responses for like days

00:28:43.680 afterwards were like shame on these men who say that being a godly man is about shooting a gun

00:28:50.200 and blah blah but i think one of the biggest issues going on is there is straw manning and

00:28:55.900 there's just straight up lying happening so this was really apparent with the the the adoption post

00:29:02.520 was you have people who are bearing false witness repeatedly without restraint and so i think part

00:29:10.780 of this is that goes back to the like we hate you um why did cain kill abel because his offering

00:29:19.240 was not righteous and his brothers was and he hated him he was righteous um and you know it's

00:29:25.040 easy for any of us to be like, well, I'm clearly the righteous one here. And I don't mean it that

00:29:29.600 way, but I just think that when you look around and you see a lot of straw manning and you see

00:29:34.840 people not taking any of the actual arguments seriously, that it's like, well, I think more

00:29:41.120 and more of these group of people are proving themselves unreliable and untrustworthy. And

00:29:46.240 And, you know, I mean, again, nobody is saying nobody is saying, hey, you know, the way that you be become a man, you have to actually bench press 300 pounds.

00:29:58.320 If you can't bench press 300, you're not a man.

00:30:00.140 Like, this is what I mean by a straw man.

00:30:02.080 Like, nobody said that, though.

00:30:04.020 Meanwhile, the guys who are refuting that it's like you're weak, frail or obese.

00:30:07.580 and you know again zooming out to the 30 000 foot level i think what's ultimately happening is people

00:30:15.580 are realizing sort of like a tight economy makes companies realize like wow we really have to

00:30:21.140 compete over the same things i think there are certain people who view it as a zero-sum game

00:30:26.460 and they're like oh well for me to have mine i've got to go annihilate these other people who are

00:30:30.880 doing well right which i have the crazy thing to me is like before this all started the people who

00:30:36.920 were taking shots i'm like i had no issue with them like we can disagree you know that as christians

00:30:41.420 we can disagree and i do my best to not you know lie about you not straw man you not uh put words

00:30:49.640 in your mouth that you didn't say um but i i felt like for the most part um that's you know

00:30:55.540 very few people was their honest interaction yep agreed yeah it does it does seem and we've we've

00:31:05.100 talked about this before you and i online offline we've talked about this but uh it it definitely

00:31:10.900 does seem as though um it's a turf war you know just that i don't know everybody you know there's

00:31:20.540 been a lot of discrediting of institutions the church sadly is no exception the reformed church

00:31:24.940 is no exception um people are asking questions 2020 ripped back the veil um and everybody's

00:31:33.520 kind of just you know a lot of people left a lot of people have deconstructed you know a lot of

00:31:37.840 this a lot of that and those who are still left within the realm of biblical orthodoxy it's like

00:31:43.360 it kind of is a small pool and that's you know and and then it's just being fighting you know

00:31:49.260 we're fighting over it and so well and I think it's also interesting Joel because uh uh when

00:31:55.720 you think about what's going on this came up kind of randomly in a conversation with Joe Rigney

00:32:01.300 and uh i was asking about actually about young restless and reform i said what happened with

00:32:06.400 it we're all trying to figure that out right like what happened with young restless and reform

00:32:10.640 and he said well actually i think a lot of the current debates even with christian nationalism

00:32:15.380 can be related to that i'm like what do you mean and he's like well what happened was young

00:32:19.540 restless and reform and guys like john piper they introduced us to classical reform theology

00:32:24.500 and then we started reading it and then and then that was great when you were talking about

00:32:29.340 soteriology what happens when you start reading hooker on political theology what happens when

00:32:34.960 you start reading rutherford on political theology um and so what i think what certain doctrines

00:32:40.340 which were actually classically reformed stephen wolf being a good example when we started

00:32:44.920 unearthing those parts i think that's where it really caused a lot of people angst yeah um and

00:32:51.980 to say you know i'm not sure that i can swallow this i also think that in in a christendom context

00:32:58.740 a positive world uh to use aaron wren's phraseology right when it when you're in christendom

00:33:05.100 you're allowed you can have a view where you basically don't have a political theology other

00:33:10.420 than like democratic pluralism and things seem to go pretty well for a while right but again as we

00:33:16.060 shift a negative world i think the problem then becomes like oh man 2020 if you didn't have a

00:33:21.680 political theology you're getting cooked right and so now i think people are starting to figure

00:33:26.760 that out try try to figure it out uh but it it's we do the protestant thing we infight you know

00:33:33.300 um and and i think largely uh probably i don't see that dying down um i certainly don't intend

00:33:42.180 to the funny thing is like i thought i was tweeting about adoption i was like i didn't

00:33:48.880 see it as a oh let's draw battle lines with the same folks again um again just born out of

00:33:56.080 counseling and saying, I think this is true. Um, you know, when you get the, like your, uh, you

00:34:02.800 know, outrage farming, it's like, I think you're giving me too much credit. I just was talking to

00:34:06.820 somebody and thought something and said, I think this is true. I had no idea that it would be what

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00:36:01.260 Yeah. Yeah. And that's happened to me a few times, but that's, you know, going back to what I said

00:36:05.180 previously, I think I'm starting to, now I'm, now I can predict it a little bit more. At first I was

00:36:11.680 more surprised like hey i think you know this is just a tweet about adoption or hey i think this 0.96

00:36:15.340 is just a tweet about um you know the the danger of certain women's bible studies you know or this

00:36:20.520 is just a tweet about you know personal care or you know even dressing came into you know like

00:36:25.440 should we dress up for the lord's day you know how you know should we dress like slobs you know

00:36:28.920 whatever um or you know second amendment rights you know you know should you own a gun should you

00:36:33.780 know how to to operate that gun you know and you think it's just you know i'm it's just a topic

00:36:38.800 like and this is a different topic we were arguing over something this this you know

00:36:42.740 is completely a separate you know discussion and you throw something out there and it blows up in

00:36:48.480 your face and that's how it felt for a while but now i feel like you know you're able it's actually

00:36:55.160 quite predictable you you're able to um to you know to to see ahead of time you know which which

00:37:03.460 things are going to get the vitriol which things are going to get the pushback and i think like i

00:37:08.500 said earlier, I think the things that are going to get the pushback are the things that deal with

00:37:13.580 nature, the things that are practical. Because I really do think for decades now, everything has

00:37:21.320 been, we have all been pietists and I'm including myself. We have all, whether it was intentional

00:37:27.740 or not, whether we recognize it or not, all that mattered was the spiritual and the eternal. We

00:37:33.620 did not really have, I think, a proper biblical view of this world. The view of this world is

00:37:41.960 that the whole thing is going to disintegrate, right? The new heavens and the new earth is not

00:37:47.000 restorative. It's not the heavens coming to this earth and making it new at the end of the age,

00:37:53.200 but it's actually a new, meaning another earth. Like I think we all hook, line, and sinker,

00:37:58.400 we bought that narrative. We believe that the earth is going to be dissolved in fire, literally

00:38:04.720 dissolved, disintegrated, annihilated, that the creation is crying out with eager groans and

00:38:10.700 expectations for a mercy killing from the Lord to be taken out back behind the woodshed and put

00:38:16.120 down. The trees want to, not to see the sons of God being revealed, but to give way to the sons

00:38:22.840 of God being revealed and annihilated so that the sons of God might be revealed. And so in all these

00:38:29.640 things, your view of the end of the world, your view of eschatology, your view of the cosmos,

00:38:35.280 of the created order, all of these things for decades now have been absolutely, they're just

00:38:43.840 irrelevant. We wouldn't be able to say, as the apostle Paul does, this spiritual or physical

00:38:50.120 training has some value we would say you know it has no value uh no value whatsoever and so so to

00:38:55.780 this world you know so like andrew risker says in boniface option you know like you're you know

00:39:00.080 burning a pile of tires in the backyard to own the libs you know like that's it like conservatives

00:39:04.880 just kind of we just we just took uh the op you know the opposite position just to to own the

00:39:10.980 libs you know so um the libs you know we don't want to be a a patagonia you know wearing um

00:39:17.640 crunchy, granola-eating hiker. So instead, we're going to just eat triple-decker cheeseburgers

00:39:25.700 for breakfast, lunch, and dinner, burn tires in the backyard, and think that somehow that must

00:39:30.900 be the right position because these guys who kill babies are on the other side. And yeah,

00:39:34.660 they do kill babies, and their logic is flawed all the way down. But even a blind squirrel can

00:39:39.580 find a nut from time to time. A broken clock can be right. And that doesn't mean that all we can

00:39:44.320 eat is granola. You know, I don't think you need to be vegan. And I could make a biblical argument

00:39:48.840 for meat being on the menu. I think God's intention, even before the new covenant and

00:39:53.100 all those kinds of things. But the point is, the point is physical health does not belong to the

00:39:58.520 libs. It belongs to God and his people. Physical strength belongs to God. The physical creation,

00:40:05.540 it belongs to God. We're called to exercise dominion in such a way that the cosmos flourish

00:40:11.160 underneath the leadership and dominion of mankind, not that they disintegrate and are ruined. And so

00:40:17.680 I think for a while, it was just kind of what's like, you know, for six months, it was like,

00:40:22.640 what is happening right now? Like you say something and I see a clip of me over here and

00:40:27.540 750,000 people are watching it. You know, somebody put it in. I'm like, what is happening?

00:40:33.860 Like things that were shocking. I was like, I thought, but we agree on this. I know you agree

00:40:39.500 with me. Why is this happening? But then I realized that I really think that the line

00:40:46.400 is, it's the nature, it's the line of nature, it's the line of practicality, right? So

00:40:53.020 complementarianism, that's, you know, fine, the husband's the head of the wife. And we can say 0.95

00:40:56.800 that all day long. But when you actually start talking about the practical elements of headship,

00:41:03.080 no, no, I mean, he actually is the head of his wife, not the tiebreaker three times over the

00:41:08.120 course of a 50-year marriage. But no, he actually is the head of his wife. And here are some

00:41:12.300 practical ways that he exercises that headship in function, not just in theory. Right. You're in

00:41:18.160 trouble. Your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit. Here's a workout plan. Boom, you're in trouble.

00:41:25.560 You've been commissioned as a provider and a protector. We live in a dark time. We live in

00:41:29.960 a negative world. People are breaking into homes. These things happen. Here's a gun. Here's how to

00:41:34.700 operate it for the glory of God and the good of your family, boom, you're in trouble.

00:41:38.620 You know, like all these things are, you know, you should care for your own children and

00:41:43.800 seek to have children and get into a vasectomy when you're able to conceive so that you can 0.59

00:41:47.760 adopt people on the other side of the world who actually have living parents, but are

00:41:51.060 refusing their obligation to the children.

00:41:53.380 Maybe isn't the best idea.

00:41:54.560 Boom, you're in trouble.

00:41:55.780 So all, but all these things are connected.

00:41:57.680 And I think the connection piece is the Christian world, some of us, you know, but it's growing.

00:42:04.700 is waking up and saying, the world matters. The world matters. It's not just stuff. We're not

00:42:11.940 materialist, but we're also not Gnostics. It's both. The world matters. This creation matters. 0.68

00:42:19.940 The dirt matters. The trees matter. Your family, your posterity, it matters. Your health, it

00:42:27.640 matters. How you dress, it matters. All these things. And yes, there is a fine line. There is

00:42:34.280 a way of overstepping into the realm of vanity or into the realm of materialism. But for the

00:42:39.800 longest time, we have been pietistic monks. It's this monastic kind of John Piper poverty gospel

00:42:47.700 kind of thing where you give away all your money. To be poor is godly. To adopt from the other side

00:42:52.960 of the world is godly. To be fat or skinny and gaunt and not healthy is godly. To be a weak man 0.77

00:43:00.800 is godly all of it and i think people are waking up but there's a group that wants to keep us

00:43:05.720 asleep yeah i mean i was thinking about that even the stories i remember of like mark driscoll would

00:43:12.580 tell early in his ministry um where they were it was sort of like they weren't saying like you

00:43:18.800 you have to absolutely be poor but what they would do is they would use a story and they'd be like

00:43:23.520 there was this guy in our church and he selfishly went and bought a new pickup truck and he came to

00:43:29.780 church and he felt convicted and him and his wife went back to the dealership and they returned it

00:43:34.460 and they gave that money to the church have you ever heard the story of ananias and sapphira

00:43:38.740 and you're just like yeah like uh it was just such a thing for so long that like if you have

00:43:45.460 money if you do well in business any of that stuff was bad and i agree with you this is actually kind

00:43:50.480 of an interesting uh again corrective a book that joe rigney and i were talking about was the things

00:43:56.520 of earth his book and he was saying the same thing like we have to get back to like you know

00:44:03.620 when i was in a lot of like the i guess like kind of fundy baptist churches growing up and then you

00:44:09.680 know even in the sbc it was stuff like you know people would like stand up and repent for drinking

00:44:14.820 coffee and i'm like why are you quote-unquote repenting from drinking well i just realized

00:44:20.440 that every morning i wake up and i pour myself a cup of coffee and i enjoy it and i needed to

00:44:27.160 repent of my idolatrous enjoyment of car and it's like man you must be fun at parties i mean but but

00:44:34.340 it became like a false view of holiness it's it's a false standard of what it is to be holy and that

00:44:39.740 just like you could watch a football game on saturday night for your favorite college team

00:44:44.480 and like enjoy it and not be sinning and football isn't inherently sinful although certainly the

00:44:49.860 modern manifestations have been hijacked by crazies all that stuff but yeah it's fake and 0.96

00:44:55.080 gay i mean we're doing black national anthem and all this stuff but um i do think that you could 0.99

00:45:01.480 watch the rangers crush the diamondbacks who were not gay the only team not gay yeah the rangers are 0.91

00:45:08.580 the one team that refused to do gay nights so good on them for winning but but i do think it 0.68

00:45:13.240 just gets back to this whole thing of um even i would say this as a as a guy who grew up even with

00:45:20.300 theonomy that one of the things one of the errors of that camp can be kind of a disregard for natural

00:45:26.600 law even um so i have a greater appreciation thanks to guys like steven wolf where i'm like

00:45:31.740 you know what i think there's a place somewhere in here for some of the classical natural law

00:45:36.380 theory and uh maybe we don't have to be quite as antithetical to that as possible because as you

00:45:43.160 said like this is where we're actually getting in trouble is when you start applying things like

00:45:49.460 what does paul say how do you know that homosexuality is wrong doesn't nature teach you 0.99

00:45:55.000 right right it it actually you're being instructed uh by these things and and that can be a good

00:46:01.780 locus for a lot of the conversation i mean even the non-tenant years ago said this uh he and i

00:46:07.620 were talking and he was like yeah of course men should be you know their body should be hard i

00:46:12.020 I mean, think about what happens when a man goes and works in a field.

00:46:14.800 His muscles get bigger and his body physically gets harder, right?

00:46:20.580 You actually see nature teaching you something about the height of man's function.

00:46:26.260 When men are lazy or they're eating the wrong foods or they're sedentary or any combination of those things, what happens to their body?

00:46:34.200 It gets very soft and flabby and they have a hard time breathing, walking upstairs, right?

00:46:40.660 that isn't peak masculinity. Like we could say this about a lot of these issues. Doesn't nature

00:46:45.700 teach you that a pastor shaped like a giant pumpkin is not good? Doesn't nature teach you

00:46:52.420 that? And, you know, I think because we've had a generation of people who you've said this before,

00:46:59.100 like the missing ingredient in preaching is the applicational part, right? Everybody's good with

00:47:04.440 the principle. Everybody's good with a little bit of exegesis. But when you say, therefore,

00:47:10.660 and then you fill in the blank for people,

00:47:13.600 therefore you shouldn't be obese, you shouldn't be lazy.

00:47:19.700 Men should have some measure of physical strength

00:47:21.740 or they should be pursuing it.

00:47:23.720 Then everybody loses their mind.

00:47:26.060 The whole world loses their mind.

00:47:28.240 You're absolutely right. 0.99

00:47:29.520 Yeah, it's a pietistic thing. 0.96

00:47:31.420 It's a Gnostic thing.

00:47:32.560 And it is monastic. 0.52

00:47:33.940 I think that we've, in a weird way,

00:47:36.580 we've uh we've retracted back to you know the monks that would sleep on slats of wood and

00:47:43.700 they'd leave cracks in between each slat so that cold gusts of wind could you know come on their

00:47:48.140 bare backs and they'd sleep naked you know or just wearing undercloths and you know so that 0.52

00:47:52.220 their sleep would be miserable you know the desert father is living in caves and you know 0.82

00:47:57.000 and we we really have um i think gone back to that in our own 21st century western way 0.75

00:48:03.720 but gone back to this idea of um everything must be spiritual everything must be miserable

00:48:10.600 um everyone needs to be poor everyone needs to be fat or skinny you could go either way you just

00:48:17.440 you know not not muscular just make sure you you're not muscular and so you know and you need

00:48:24.140 to be a pushover in your home and yes you're technically the head of the wife but what does

00:48:27.900 that mean your headship solely exists in order to serve every single one of your wife's, not her

00:48:35.740 needs, but her basis wants. So at every single level, it is a despising of nature. And I am in

00:48:44.080 the theonomist camp, but I'm also in the biblical camp. I'm in the reform camp and I see no reason 0.71

00:48:51.060 of a rejection of natural law. I don't think that natural law and natural revelation, special

00:48:56.580 revelation god wrote two books and they're not opposed to one another it's the same book um you

00:49:01.980 know so i you know my when i say i'm a theonomist what i always tell people that well what about

00:49:05.520 natural law of course natural law but i just i think i can go to the civil magistrate and i can

00:49:09.400 say well you see the migration patterns of this you know white tail axis deer over here you see

00:49:13.960 the constellation the stars you see the way these crops you know and flowers are blooming over there

00:49:18.360 and this teaches us that and that and also also exodus 20 also psalm 2 kiss the sun you know like

00:49:26.020 I just, when I say I'm a theonomist, all I mean is at the end of the day, we can use the book.

00:49:32.720 God is, he didn't give natural revelation to all people and the book to some people. I think he

00:49:38.140 gave natural revelation to all people and the book to his people, but to preach from that book,

00:49:43.340 special revelation to all people and say, Exodus 20 applies to you. It's not just to the church.

00:49:48.400 It applies to all people. So when I say I'm a theonomist, a general equity theonomist,

00:49:52.180 it's in that vein. And I think, you know, some of the best of the theonomists and things that

00:49:55.860 were written it didn't it wasn't coming as a substitute for natural revelation so yeah no

00:50:01.920 exactly yeah all right well eric i i gotta go you gotta go any final words for our listeners

00:50:08.620 yeah i just want to say since i'm here for people watching the video if you don't wear

00:50:14.180 red flannels in the fall and winter at least some that you're not a real man and so joel i don't

00:50:20.800 know if you wear red flannels i do i was wearing one yesterday okay good i was gonna have nathan

00:50:26.780 like intervene maybe intervention in your life otherwise so you're good you're covered good

00:50:31.280 looking out brother yep that's a great way to end the episode at the end of the day everything that

00:50:35.320 we've said all the nuances let's let's just go ahead and throw something if you don't do this 0.69

00:50:40.420 exactly um you're going to hell god bless yeah that's exactly right god bless you don't even

00:50:46.560 needed anything well we were laughing we were laughing because brian brian was preaching the 0.80

00:50:50.600 other day and he was talking about women and uh a series on men and women and then he he like gets

00:50:56.600 to the closing he realizes his timer is running out and he's like by the way he's like what about

00:51:01.180 the 19th amendment and i we were all like wait you have two minutes you have two minutes brian

00:51:06.420 then you see him pause and then on we go yeah yeah yeah what about the 19th amendment

00:51:12.260 no explanation necessary let's pray and not for the benediction that's what happened too yeah

00:51:18.860 that's funny all right good to see you thanks for coming on the show awesome thanks brother

00:51:23.620 appreciate you all right

The NXR Podcast - November 07, 2023

THEOLOGY APPLIED - The “Adoption Tweet” Heard Round The World

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