The NXR Podcast - THEOLOGY APPLIED - The Biblical Criteria For Genuine Persecution

00:00:00 All right, you guys are in for a real treat. On this episode, we have Pastor James Coates in

00:00:06 Edmonton, Alberta, who has really reached international news for being imprisoned

00:00:13 for five weeks for continuing to keep his church open on the Lord's Day during COVID-19 against

00:00:21 the civil magistrate's orders. And one of the big issues that we get to in this episode

00:00:26 is really kind of addressing those who would oppose Pastor James Coates,

00:00:31 who would profess to be followers of Christ.

00:00:33 There are people who say that he's not actually being persecuted,

00:00:37 that he's just playing the martyr,

00:00:39 that he's really just experiencing the appropriate consequences 1.00

00:00:43 for his foolish decisions. 0.99

00:00:45 And there are professing Christians who would say, 0.99

00:00:47 this isn't real persecution.

00:00:49 Pastor James is just playing the martyr.

00:00:51 And so that's the big question that we address in this episode,

00:00:54 and we try to provide for you a biblical criteria for what actually constitutes persecution according

00:01:01 to the Word of God. So enjoy. Applying God's Word to every aspect of life. This is Theology Applied.

00:01:15 All right, so we're privileged to have as a special guest today on Theology Applied,

00:01:19 Pastor James Coates. James Coates lives in Edmonton, Alberta, is that correct?

00:01:24 That's correct.

00:01:26 All right. And so would you just take a moment and introduce yourselves? I think a lot of our listeners will be familiar with you and what's been going on with your church and the persecution that you've been experiencing. We're going to talk about that, but go ahead and just introduce yourself to our listeners. Let them know who you are.

00:01:40 Yeah, my name is James Coates. I'm a graduate of the Master's Seminary twice. I graduated from TMS with an MDiv in May 2010, and then last year with a doctor of ministry.

00:01:54 and I've been pastoring Grace Life Church now for nearly 11 years and have been in the pulpit

00:02:02 that entire time and just faithfully preaching God's word and find myself in the midst of

00:02:08 quite a significant battle. You know, one of the things that I thought about sharing with

00:02:12 your folks is one of the things that is sort of levied against me is that in this season,

00:02:17 I'm seeking attention. I'm trying to make a big name for myself. And I wanted to highlight that

00:02:22 that's totally inconsistent with my life and and just um just how i've carried out my ministry i

00:02:29 don't have a blog that i'm utilizing i have no social media presence no facebook no twitter

00:02:35 i haven't sought in any way shape or form to broaden my ministry beyond the walls of grace

00:02:40 life church and i've just been faithfully preaching the word verse by verse through books of the bible

00:02:45 these last 11 years and so the attention that i'm getting now is is simply by virtue of the fact

00:02:51 that I'm following my convictions and walking in obedience to Christ. And that has put me in this

00:02:57 position. And it's not the most comfortable position to be in. I certainly wouldn't have

00:03:01 chosen it and really believe it chose me. And my responsibility in it is to just be faithful.

00:03:08 Yeah. Amen. So how long were you? Because you were actually arrested. You actually spent time

00:03:14 in prison. How long were you in prison? And when did you get out? How long have you been out now?

00:03:18 I was in prison for 35 days and it's hard to even keep track of how long I've been out. It was

00:03:24 toward the end of March that I got out and it feels like a long time ago. It feels like I've

00:03:30 been out for a while. And I would say that even at this point in time, just in the context of God

00:03:35 using all things for good, there's just nothing negative lingering in my life whatsoever from

00:03:40 that experience in jail. I've seen the Lord just continually work in my life for good and just

00:03:48 give him praise just for how kind he's been toward me. Praise God. How are your wife and children?

00:03:53 How many children do you have? I got two boys. One is 18 and the other is 11. And they're doing

00:04:00 well. I mean, we just asked our oldest a moment ago, if life was normal for him. And for him,

00:04:06 it is mostly normal that there's tension around church. And certainly my imprisonment was a

00:04:11 difficult time for him. But for the most part, his day to day living is is is functionally normal,

00:04:17 which is good. I mean, that's the way I'd prefer it. And I think our 11 year old would say the

00:04:22 same thing. Now, we often talk a lot about COVID-19 and, and my government and all that

00:04:28 we're going through. So there's no question that there are moments that are more tense in our home

00:04:32 than they would be otherwise. But, but I think they're doing well. And my wife, I mean,

00:04:37 she's a huge support, couldn't have asked for a better wife, a better partner. The Lord has

00:04:42 just blessed me richly with her and she's dialed in incredibly supportive and and is there to

00:04:50 encourage me when I'm weary and so she's doing well she's she's faithfully putting one foot in

00:04:57 front of the next and and just been a a wonderful blessing in my life that's great so your family's

00:05:04 doing well you're doing well you've been out for some time got out about mid-march you spent about

00:05:08 five weeks or so in prison. Well, at the church level, so that's your main call as a minister of

00:05:15 the gospel, a local church pastor, and it sounds like that's always what you were about, and God

00:05:20 has just providentially used these circumstances to extend your ministry beyond your church, but

00:05:26 I know that your church is still your priority as a local pastor. How is your church doing? Because

00:05:31 it's one thing for your wife to be dialed in, like you said, you use that phrase, and for your

00:05:34 children to be on board. But I know as a pastor, I was pastoring in California when COVID first hit,

00:05:41 and I'm now in Texas. But I just know that many pastors just struggled with division among elder

00:05:50 teams, among congregations. Just a lot of people have a lot of strong opinions on how churches

00:05:57 should respond to the virus. And so, so with the uniqueness of your situation, I'm just curious,

00:06:05 how have you lost people? I'm sure you've gained people, but have you lost people from the church?

00:06:10 Are there people, has, has everybody at the church level been on board with your decision to say,

00:06:15 hey, no, we're going to, we're going to stand up to this and we're going to continue. We're not

00:06:19 right. We're not just throwing unnecessary punches. So we're not just being, you know,

00:06:23 rebellious for the sake of being rebellious, but we're going to stand up in the sense that we are

00:06:26 going to continue to do what we believe God's called us to do, regardless of whether or not

00:06:30 the state tells us to stop. Is everyone with your church on board with that? Have you, have you

00:06:34 struggled to shepherd people along in that decision? Our church is in a really good place.

00:06:41 You know, I think there were people in our congregation who had an appetite for remaining

00:06:46 open right away. And, and even in my own case, to be honest with you, it was not an easy decision to,

00:06:53 to not meet and to comply with the governing authorities. I did that reluctantly. It was never

00:07:01 something that I felt incredibly good about. And so we did that for a little bit. And there was

00:07:07 already some support for opening our doors. And then I started to preach some sermons that were

00:07:12 pretty key. I preached on Romans 13 back in, I think, June. And it was titled putting the

00:07:19 government in its place and that was more of a straight just preaching of romans 13 1 to 7

00:07:25 and uh and then i preached on the the paragraph in hebrews 10 where we have the the call to not

00:07:32 forsake the gathering and and so i preached that and that kind of set the table for the decision

00:07:39 to open so that we had quite a bit of support already at that point in time where we knew look

00:07:44 we can be subject to the government but that doesn't mean that we're gonna comply with

00:07:49 everything that they want us to do. And then if we are at a step with the government at some

00:07:53 certain point, well, we're going to submit to whatever consequences they want to enforce against

00:07:58 us as part of our subjection, but we're not going to obey them as though they hold the position of

00:08:03 God. And so our people were ready to open up at that point in time. Now, there were some who were

00:08:10 not of the same mind. And really, that was super helpful because they began to interact with us

00:08:17 an email and began to poke holes and and and challenge us and our thinking to force us to

00:08:24 tighten things up and be more robust in addressing this issue from a governmental perspective romans

00:08:30 13 and even on an ecclesiological front and so i'm i'm so thankful for those interactions now

00:08:38 a lot of those folks and and it's not a it's not a lot of families like if i had to count households

00:08:42 it wouldn't shock me if we've lost less than 10 households in this entire time which is not a lot

00:08:48 when you think about it at that point in time we would have been a church that on Sundays would

00:08:53 have had an average of 350 pre pre-pandemic and so we haven't lost a lot of folks and and the ones

00:09:01 that were protesting did subsequently end up leaving our church but but so thankful for the

00:09:08 engagement we had with them and and still love those folks and still care for those folks and

00:09:14 want them to to flourish in the lord and they're in other churches that we would consider solid

00:09:18 but are complying and so uh so anyway that was kind of where things were at heading into the

00:09:24 fall and and uh we didn't quite have everyone coming back yet but then i preached a sermon

00:09:30 on december 20th that was kind of laying down the gauntlet things were heating up with the

00:09:34 government the rcmp was coming to our services ahs was coming to our services and the rcmp

00:09:41 it's our police force and media was outside our gathering and you know taking video and

00:09:47 photo of our our parking lot and people going into the facility and so i preached that sermon

00:09:53 which addressed the ecclesiology it addressed the the science and the medicine it addressed the law

00:10:01 and as it relates to the supreme law of our land the charter of rights and freedoms and so

00:10:06 that sermon was a catalyst for our church just coming back like anybody who was just not sure

00:10:11 that that sermon uh brought our folks back and then you know from and then my imprisonment takes

00:10:18 place and if there were any stragglers at that point in time i mean that clinched it for them

00:10:24 i mean they they they went from being not sure at that point to you know all in on the stand that

00:10:30 we were taking. And so that my imprisonment really was a blessing for our church really

00:10:36 united us. I mean, if you could have been there on a Sunday in our, in our, in our gathering

00:10:42 that I wasn't there for the, the, the testimony that I heard of what was happening in those

00:10:47 gatherings is just everything you would want the corporate gathering to be. And I got to

00:10:52 taste it once I got out and have been able to taste it since then. And so our church

00:10:58 is doing really well. We're united. I'm not sure that we have anyone that is in a position where

00:11:05 they're considering leaving Grace Life at this point in time. I think they know where we're at.

00:11:09 And there's folks that haven't even come to the gathering at all because they've opted to live

00:11:13 stream. And we're not binding their conscience on that. There's good reasons for that in some cases.

00:11:19 And they're so supportive of the stand that we've taken. And so our church is doing really well.

00:11:25 and and you know there is a an uncomfortable side of it for me because shepherding your people

00:11:30 without a facility is more difficult and and and there's a lot that our energy is going into that

00:11:37 it wouldn't be going into if if if we weren't under the gun and the pressure of our government

00:11:43 right now so there's no question that there's some discomfort for me as far as knowing how our

00:11:50 people are really doing but that's when you lean on the ministries that you've put in place to care

00:11:56 for your people your bible study shepherds that they're caring for the people that are in their

00:12:00 studies and then as we connect with them we can get a pulse on how everyone's doing and make sure

00:12:05 that that no one's falling through the cracks as it were yeah so where are you currently meeting

00:12:10 is it week by week like basically like every monday morning when you wish that you could just

00:12:15 be expositing god's word exegeting preparing for your sermon you're doing administrative work and

00:12:19 trying to figure out where are we going to meet the next sunday is that is that where you're at

00:12:22 you know what that's classified so at this point in time we have just recently come into a season

00:12:28 where we think that given the pressure from our government we we need to kind of go silent on

00:12:34 what we're doing uh or not for that matter and so we are at a point now where we're trying to

00:12:41 encourage our people to be uh tight-lipped on that and i guess that starts with me because

00:12:46 they're going to listen to this interview and so if i'm being if i'm being public on what we're

00:12:50 doing or not then then i'm not setting a good example right fair enough yeah that totally

00:12:55 makes sense i didn't even think about that yeah wouldn't it wouldn't be necessarily advantageous

00:12:59 for you to share on a public venue like this where you guys are going to meet this next sunday so

00:13:02 well i have been just you know i have been but it's just it's just now it's just now that we're

00:13:07 going you know what we need to be approaching this a little bit differently so yep innocent

00:13:13 as doves and cunning and shrewd as serpents. That's good. So let's go ahead and just dive

00:13:18 in. I told you, you know, we talked a little bit before we started recording. And one of

00:13:22 the things that I really wanted to just hear your response, give you a chance to respond

00:13:27 to basically, you know, there are some people professing Christians. Now, whether or not

00:13:32 they're truly regenerate, I don't know. And I have every reason, every inclination to assume

00:13:38 that, you know, that many of them are truly Christians, regenerate believers, followers

00:13:42 of the Lord Jesus Christ, and yet still there seems to be a group of people that as it pertains

00:13:48 to your situation, your arrest, and your decision to continue physically meeting with your church,

00:13:54 there are those who would say, I don't think this is actual persecution. I don't think he's

00:13:59 being persecuted. I think he's just experiencing the necessary consequences, the practical results

00:14:07 of a foolish decision i wrote it down so i'm just going to read it the way that i wrote it

00:14:12 you know these individuals insist that you and other pastors like you are merely experiencing 0.93

00:14:17 the appropriate consequences for your unnecessary rebellious actions towards the civil magistrates

00:14:23 very reasonable guidelines for the churches for churches exclusively based on the science

00:14:31 right so for someone who's saying that someone who professes to be a follower of jesus and they say

00:14:35 this isn't persecution. Pastor James, you know, people are patting him on the back and encouraging

00:14:42 him, but he's not being persecuted. He's just experiencing the appropriate consequences for

00:14:49 making foolish decisions. These orders have been based on the science and Pastor James is putting 0.97

00:14:56 people's lives in danger. How would you respond to someone who says you're playing the murderer?

00:15:02 you're not actually being persecuted you know there's so much there so let's see if i can't

00:15:07 try and address all of it at the outset i think what that betrays on two levels is um

00:15:14 a failure to understand the the conscience and the priority of the conscience and then to

00:15:22 just a really weak grasp of what persecution is but let's deal with the conscience at the outset

00:15:28 we have to obey our conscience. Anything not done from faith is sin, Romans 14. So we are in a

00:15:37 culture where even in the Christian community, those who profess faith in Christ, there is just 0.97

00:15:43 no room for conscience and principle. There's no room for, I can't do that because my conscience 0.85

00:15:51 doesn't allow me to do that. As a pastor, one of my responsibilities as I shepherd God's people

00:15:58 is to be a steward of their conscience. Christ is Lord of the conscience. And so I need to ensure

00:16:05 that one, I'm properly informing the consciences of my people, and then two, never doing anything

00:16:12 that would violate their conscience. So when it comes to me personally, as a shepherd of the flock,

00:16:18 knowing that I'm going to stand before Christ and give an account for my ministry, I have to act in

00:16:23 a manner that's consistent with my conscience based on the information i have from god's word

00:16:29 and so christians ought to respect that the only thing a christian could do is say well

00:16:34 no it has nothing to do with conscience and then read ill motive into it and say he's just doing

00:16:39 this as you've said to to be a martyr or uh to make a name for himself and that's just reading

00:16:46 my motive which we're told not to do and and furthermore you've got individuals who are

00:16:52 chiming in on this that have no idea who i am they're not they're not privy to my ministry

00:16:56 they've done nothing to to really hear me out and consider uh where i'm coming from even scripturally

00:17:03 on this piece so i think fundamentally one of the issues here is conscience our government doesn't

00:17:09 respect conscience the christian community doesn't respect conscience and conscience is critical

00:17:14 we have to honor the conscience anything not done from faith is sin so there's that piece

00:17:20 on the conscience piece

00:17:23 because that's so good

00:17:23 and I so appreciate that you said that

00:17:25 one of the things that I wrestled through

00:17:28 so there's my conscience

00:17:29 and then as you've already said

00:17:30 there's the conscience of your congregants

00:17:33 as a pastor

00:17:34 the sheep that you're shepherding

00:17:35 and we want to

00:17:37 one way that I would bifurcate it

00:17:39 in terms of authority

00:17:39 there's the authority of counsel

00:17:41 and the authority of command

00:17:42 and so we don't want to command someone

00:17:45 especially if it's something

00:17:46 that's not explicitly clear in scripture

00:17:48 we don't want to command someone to do something that would be a sin against their conscience that's

00:17:52 what you're saying and with the conscience we recognize it can be sharpened um by by the holy

00:17:57 spirit his conviction working in conjunction with the word of god so so the the holy spirit

00:18:02 illuminating the word to us most ordinarily happening through the preached word that

00:18:07 sharpens the conscience and a person's conscience can be dulled um through sin and there are some

00:18:12 instances when a person because of a refusal to repent of sin an impenitent posture of heart

00:18:20 their conscience can be so dulled by their sin that we actually would command them to sin against

00:18:25 to sin against their conscience because it is something explicit in scripture like thou shalt

00:18:31 not steal but their conscience says you know well my conscience tells me it's actually really good

00:18:35 for me to steal and really you know and so so there there are people who are so far gone but

00:18:39 most ordinarily with a conscience because we're made in the image of god even an unbeliever if

00:18:44 their conscience is not so dulled by by sin um there's this general moral compass and what we

00:18:52 want to do is we want to command the things that are commanded scripture the things that are less

00:18:55 clear in scripture we we might have still a conviction as a shepherd as a pastor but we

00:19:00 want to use the authority of counsel where we're using the word of god to sharpen their conscience

00:19:05 but giving some leeway before we just outright say thou shalt do this or you must do this we're

00:19:11 saying i really think god's word says this like children for instance i'm always encouraging my

00:19:16 congregation uh children are a blessing and you're blessed if you have a lot of them what i'm not

00:19:21 doing is saying thou shalt have five children or more right but i am constantly pushing this

00:19:27 this general message of the goodness of children and you know what i mean and so anyway so my point

00:19:33 is to say, now, as it pertains to the choice of an elder team, shepherds, should we meet or should

00:19:38 we not? Part of what I wrestled through with my elders, because we had a couple elders who we

00:19:43 shouldn't meet, and we had a couple who we know were saying we should meet. Well, part of the

00:19:47 reason we ended up meeting was, and this was one of the arguments that I used, was that it allowed

00:19:51 for both sets of people in our congregation to obey their conscience. If we shut down the church

00:19:59 and don't meet, even if that's my conscience as a shepherd, as a pastor, right? So I'm following

00:20:04 my conscience, but it's very likely, it stands to reason that there may be members in my congregation

00:20:10 who are very convinced in their conscience from their reading of the word of God that the church

00:20:15 should meet. And so if I say the church isn't meeting, then basically I am binding every

00:20:20 conscience in my congregation to forsake the gathering by force on the Lord's day. Whereas

00:20:28 if i say we're going to meet and i say and all of you better be there you're under church discipline

00:20:33 now i'm binding the conscience the other way but there's a middle approach which it sounds like

00:20:37 that's what you're taking i think that's so wise and it's a proper understanding of the significant

00:20:41 of the conscience and counseling rather than commanding with things that are less clear and

00:20:45 saying look part of the reason we're gathering isn't because we think that that um that there's

00:20:51 no possible way a person could come to a conviction from the scripture not to gather but we're saying

00:20:56 there's certainly a possible way and we as elders have have come to this conviction that we should

00:21:02 gather and so we are by this choice we are accommodating both consciences um so we're saying

00:21:08 that we're giving a special grace to those of you who aren't going to gather at this time whereas

00:21:12 ordinarily we would follow up as your shepherds if you missed months of church and have some serious

00:21:17 conversations but we're giving a special grace during the season to those who choose not to

00:21:22 gather, but we're still, we are gathering and administering the ordinary means of grace for

00:21:27 those who have, in their conscience, are bound to gather. And so I think that's so good, and I'm so

00:21:33 glad to hear that you're doing that, and I'm sometimes grieved when other pastors don't see,

00:21:39 I think they just see it as two approaches, either no gathering or gathering, and I wish

00:21:44 more would see this third approach, that the choice to gather doesn't mean, that doesn't

00:21:50 mean by default that we're choosing to gather and we're and we're saying everyone has to be here

00:21:55 right there's no like a choice of an elders to gather doesn't mean that you and I think some of

00:22:01 our listeners would be surprised to hear that because they'd see man this guy you know was

00:22:04 imprisoned and his face is on the news and all this kind of stuff and they and they would you

00:22:09 know they would write you up they would make you out James to be like this hardcore zealot and I

00:22:13 think some of our listeners would be would be pleasantly surprised to hear yeah James is making

00:22:18 this stand and many other people are with him. And he has members in his church who currently

00:22:23 aren't attending and they're extending to them grace. So I just think that's, I think that's

00:22:28 impressive. Are there any other thoughts on the matter of the conscience that you want to add

00:22:32 before you go? Because you have some other reasons you wanted to mention. Well, just that, you know,

00:22:36 in our case, our conscience is informed by our ecclesiology. And so from there, you can get into

00:22:42 the issue of having a robust ecclesiology and what we what we see in our our day is that the

00:22:50 the doctrines of the church that shape the way christians think about the corporate gathering

00:22:56 for example which is just an aspect of ecclesiology is is revealing that people think

00:23:02 very very lowly of the church that there is not a high view of the church among many and so that's

00:23:09 another reason why they're going how in the world can't they just comply with this i mean

00:23:15 how is it that that they can't just do what the government's asking them to do and and and they

00:23:21 they aren't even allowing for the room room for the conscience but they're also part of that is

00:23:26 a failure to even think robustly through this issue ecclesiologically and and so because their

00:23:33 ecclesiology is so low there's not even a tension i mean this isn't even a struggle for them i mean

00:23:39 they could do live stream zoom church you know until the lord returns and and they love it i

00:23:45 mean church at home in your pjs i mean this is phenomenal and and that's just born out of a

00:23:51 really poor understanding of what the corporate gathering is how critical it is for our spiritual

00:23:57 growth and development how not gathering is is doing a harm to the holiness of the church

00:24:04 and so you know to your point we're opening our doors because we believe that's what the lord

00:24:10 would have us do then it's on the people to decide a are they convinced they should be gathering

00:24:17 b how are they going to wrestle with romans 13 and the whole thing and then c are they willing

00:24:22 to assume the risk of gathering because we're not saying that there's no risk with respect to the

00:24:27 virus we think the risk is certainly overblown in the mainstream media and by governments but

00:24:34 but there is a risk and and it's on every person to assume that level of risk every time you get

00:24:40 into a car you're assuming a risk a level of risk that you you weigh the opportunity cost

00:24:47 of driving against the risk and you opt to drive and it's the same thing with the corporate

00:24:52 gathering and so um you know and it's amazing because at that point in time you get into a

00:24:57 whole other issue because then the argument is well if you you assume that risk and and then

00:25:04 contract the virus now you're becoming a vector to the rest of the community and so your freedom

00:25:10 to to assume risk and go to the gathering and be infected with the virus is now exposing your

00:25:16 neighbor and and we just have to understand that all of us have god-given rights that that we have

00:25:23 rights that we're we're free to exercise up until the point that our rights begin to infringe on

00:25:28 others and if somebody wants to lock themselves in their basement and not come out until the

00:25:33 quote-unquote pandemic's over that's their business but just because that's what they

00:25:37 want to do doesn't mean everybody else needs to do that and then that gets into a whole issue of

00:25:42 you know basically what's happened at present is that the government has turned what were once

00:25:46 god-given rights into privileges and so now as long as they have the justification to remove

00:25:52 our god-given rights they can which means now they're not god-given and they're not to be

00:25:57 protected they're just privileges that we get to exercise when the government tells us we can

00:26:02 and so i mean that's getting off into a whole other issue i guess but um but it's it's just

00:26:08 it's all connected i mean all of this thing is interconnected and so you go from one thing to

00:26:13 the next but beyond that right you got persecution and and people just aren't thinking uh robustly

00:26:20 about persecution um you know persecution according to scripture is not merely for the

00:26:26 gospel it includes that but jesus says if you're persecuted for righteousness sake

00:26:32 righteousness so then the question is is gathering on the lord's day to worship

00:26:38 and administer the ordinances and practice the one another's is that unrighteousness and then

00:26:45 if you say it is then now your your definition of good and evil is changing with the whims of

00:26:51 the culture or based on the circumstances you're in so now it's no longer a matter of exegesis

00:26:57 now it's it's a matter of pragmatism and you get to decide when you're not going to obey the lord

00:27:03 based on whether or not it's convenient or expedient or whether the culture says it's

00:27:08 appropriate to do that or the government allows you to do that so so i think you know the question

00:27:14 has to be asked is it righteous to gather and then if you gather and you're you're you experience

00:27:21 oppression for that well that's the definition of persecution if it's righteousness to gather

00:27:27 and then you experience oppression and enforcement and you suffer to gather then you have just met

00:27:36 the definition of persecution and so there's a lot of christians out there that want to go

00:27:40 well, this isn't persecution. And so they're going to basically approach it like this, that

00:27:46 unless it's persecution, we shouldn't really be defying the government. And so we're going to

00:27:52 basically kind of watch this whole thing play out. And when it reaches the threshold of being

00:27:57 persecution, then all of a sudden we're going to start obeying the Lord. And now all of a sudden

00:28:02 pastors are going to open their doors and their flocks are just going to return. And there's going

00:28:07 to be no fear and they're not going to be concerned about the virus and they're going to be ready

00:28:12 they're going to be ready to stand against the enforcement arm of the government it's utter

00:28:17 foolishness and and so not only is it a bad definition of persecution but you have to be

00:28:23 i mean almost omniscient to know when the threshold of persecution is met according to 0.97

00:28:30 your definition as if you're going to be able to spot that and then you assume that you're going

00:28:34 to have the fortitude at that point in time to open your doors and your people are going to come

00:28:38 back it's not going to happen so right i mean this just opens up massive issues on this issue

00:28:45 of persecution you've actually addressed this really well and so i've i've been very thankful

00:28:49 what you've addressed on this matter i think it's been a helpful contribution to this discussion

00:28:56 but but you know persecution fundamentally is experiencing oppression for your beliefs and so

00:29:02 if you believe it's righteous to gather in the lord's day and you are experiencing oppression

00:29:06 as we are we absolutely are and in some cases our local church is being singled out by governing

00:29:14 authorities so that we're actually getting treatment that other churches aren't getting

00:29:18 which then does does i think for some that would trigger their threshold for for persecution um

00:29:26 yeah and then you know on the flip side i'll just say this to kind of wrap this all up

00:29:30 And I said this in my sermon on Romans 13 back in February 14th, on February 14th, I just don't even care whether this meets the threshold of persecution. It just doesn't even matter to me. I'm not waiting for that to know when to obey. I'm just doing what's right, and it's righteousness, obedience to Christ that's resulting in the oppression.

00:29:50 Right. I agree with everything that you said.

00:29:54 Hebrews, I think of Hebrews chapter 12, starting verse 3,

00:29:57 and I'm sure that this is a text that's been on your mind plenty,

00:30:01 probably, I imagine, even when you were imprisoned for those five weeks.

00:30:05 But it says, Hebrews 12, starting verse 3, the Bible says,

00:30:08 Consider him being Christ, who endured from sinners such hostility against himself,

00:30:12 so that you may not grow weary or faint-hearted in your struggle against sin.

00:30:17 you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood and have you forgotten the exhortation

00:30:23 that addresses you as sons and then it goes on to discipline how God disciplines those he considers

00:30:27 his sons uh if you're not ever experiencing any discipline from the Lord that it's actually a sign

00:30:32 that you're an illegitimate um son and so uh Paul is basically he's well I say Paul I think if you

00:30:39 know the author to the Hebrews is is basically he's encouraging these people when he says

00:30:43 you're suffering, but not yet to the point of shedding your own blood.

00:30:48 And elsewhere he talks about how they've endured the plundering of their own houses

00:30:52 and the loss of their possessions.

00:30:55 And the apostle, the scripture never says,

00:30:59 and because you haven't shed your blood, this is not persecution.

00:31:03 So just to agree with your point,

00:31:05 the Bible doesn't say that it becomes persecution when someone dies.

00:31:10 you know like like if you're not bleeding it's not persecution no i think i think what you gave

00:31:15 is a really great definition that it's um no it's it's it's it's being oppressed it's suffering at

00:31:22 at and certainly there are varying degrees because i know that you would you would never say like

00:31:27 yeah i'm i'm suffering more than any any other christian in the world right now of course there

00:31:31 are people who are suffering you know more than you and then there are people like myself who

00:31:35 aren't suffering hardly at all. So there's a spectrum. There's a sliding scale, and Pastor

00:31:41 James Coates is somewhere on that scale. But for us to be, I think, so cold-hearted, and to just

00:31:48 say, to make it just a black or white, right? It's an all or nothing. You're either, it's as

00:31:54 obvious as someone putting a gun to your head and saying, will you deny Christ? And if the person

00:31:59 doesn't deny Christ, they blow their head off, and that's real persecution. And anything short

00:32:04 that's not persecution. That's just such a truncated, oversimplified definition of persecution.

00:32:10 So I think to anyone who's saying, Pastor James is playing the martyr, I think you would be playing

00:32:15 the martyr if you were pretending as though you were suffering or being persecuted to the same

00:32:22 extent as people who are losing their lives, but you're not. So you're just saying, no, this is

00:32:27 wrong. The state is overstepping its jurisdiction. God has not given them permission or authority to

00:32:36 do what they're currently doing. So this is wrong, and it's infringing and oppressing me for

00:32:40 righteousness sake, for doing what God's Word prescribes. And so therefore, it is persecution.

00:32:47 It's not this much persecution. It's also not that much persecution, but it is persecution.

00:32:52 And I'm not claiming to be persecuted more than someone else, but I am saying this is wrong.

00:32:59 We're going to fight it.

00:33:00 And as they continue to penalize us for righteousness sake, if that's not persecution, then I don't

00:33:07 know what biblical definition you're using.

00:33:08 Would you agree with that?

00:33:10 I would.

00:33:10 And you've got these guys that want to reduce it to the gospel.

00:33:14 Well, what happens when the government says you can only preach the gospel? 0.91

00:33:18 I mean, that's what Germany did.

00:33:19 they said you can only preach the pure gospel which begs the question in that context what is

00:33:23 the pure gospel but what if they say you can only preach the gospel that's it well then now they've

00:33:30 got to redefine their definition of what persecution is because they can't preach the whole counsel of

00:33:34 god and and you can see that coming obviously i mean as as the the issues around the lgbtq

00:33:41 community kind of infringe on the the preaching ministry of the church you could see how yeah

00:33:46 you can preach the gospel but you can't preach on these things over here and and so just the

00:33:51 whole definition this whole idea that it has to be for the gospel that we're persecuted is unbiblical

00:33:58 it's it's it's at least uh or it's at most an implication that's that's inaccurate being drawn

00:34:04 from acts five um that's that's it's just a bad definition of persecution and and i think it will

00:34:11 prove i think history will demonstrate how poor it is and and it betrays this you know you think

00:34:18 about um just historically like right now you've got governments exercising more power in the

00:34:25 western world than they ever have before so the state is is exercising oppression upon all people 0.63

00:34:32 and when you look at china you look at north korea you've got states that are in place that 0.80

00:34:38 are applying the same level of oppression to everyone it's not like it's it's it's singling

00:34:44 out a particular group just state oppression and therefore anyone who stands for the headship and

00:34:51 lordship of christ over the church and and and even over all things all of a sudden now that

00:34:58 person is resisting the state and so the state wants to crush individuals who are not who are

00:35:06 not complying because the state wants total power and so in the western world what governments are

00:35:12 finding out is just how much they can get away with and how much the people are going to be

00:35:18 willing to hand over their civil liberties and in canada never never let a good crisis go to waste

00:35:24 and use a crisis initially to get right that's what you know the civil civil governments will

00:35:30 in their wickedness, wicked civil governments will use a crisis to all of a sudden gain that

00:35:36 initial power, right? Because at the end of the day, it's basically, it's one thing pitted against

00:35:41 the other. It's individual freedom or liberties versus public safety, right? So individual freedoms

00:35:47 are precious and people die for the freedoms, at least here in the United States. I don't know all

00:35:52 the history of Canada, but I assume freedom never comes for free. Freedom isn't free. So somebody

00:35:56 pays a price in order for citizens individuals to have the liberties that they have um so to

00:36:01 persuade the public a society to give away such precious often blood-bought uh civil freedoms

00:36:08 and liberties you have to have something really enticing so what you do is you have a crisis

00:36:13 you blow it out of proportion right you talk it up and and you tell them hey here's your choice

00:36:18 freedom individual freedom or public safety and so then all of a sudden you get people and and

00:36:23 and you always make it temporary hey we're just asking for you to um to put your civil freedoms

00:36:29 on pause it's just temporary and and if you can just forfeit for a time your your your individual

00:36:36 liberties will ensure um public safety and then all of a sudden the crisis dissipates and the

00:36:43 crisis is gone uh but the liberties don't come back the state moves in right you give you give

00:36:48 an inch, they take a mile, they move in, and it becomes the new norm. And countries, there's a

00:36:54 progression to tyranny. There's a progression to a loss of freedom. And crisis is the play. That's

00:37:01 the way it happens. And so I think we're being played. And I think that Christians need to wake

00:37:07 up and say, whoa, this is a slippery slope. This is a snowball that can really get out of control 1.00

00:37:13 if we're not careful yeah we need to we need to be we need to responsibly and thoughtfully and

00:37:19 carefully give up public safety to keep our civil liberties let public safety die responsibly

00:37:29 thoughtfully carefully to maintain our civil liberties and and civil liberty is more precious

00:37:37 than than public health amen and that that's just not really well that's part of why we moved to

00:37:42 texas you know in texas you want to ride in the back of the truck maybe not the smartest idea you

00:37:47 might you might die but gosh darn it it's your right to do so so you know and you know like i

00:37:52 don't i don't want the government you know like when i'm taking a shower to you know some government 0.97

00:37:56 official reaching his hand and and turning the hot water down i think it's a little bit too hot

00:37:59 for you there joel's like get out of my house get out of my shower what what is going on and and i

00:38:04 know that's an extreme example but that's it feels like that's kind of the direction that we're

00:38:08 heading. But there's one other point that you made that I think is so good. So you said that

00:38:12 people have low ecclesiology, so that was really helpful. One of the things I said to my 0.95

00:38:18 congregation in California, you had a sermon that really kind of clenched it for a lot of your

00:38:23 people and they came back. And I preached a sermon that had a similar effect that really

00:38:29 persuaded a lot of our people. One of the points that I made was if a person, it's commonplace

00:38:36 for a person to miss, you know, five, 10, 15 Sundays in a year for lesser reasons, like our

00:38:44 kids' soccer game or vacation or travel or work, then surely that individual would really struggle

00:38:53 to see why a pastor like you wouldn't pause the church for a global pandemic. And so I think

00:39:00 it's what you're saying. It's exactly what you're saying. It's a collection of multiple variables.

00:39:05 So it's a multivariant situation. So it's seeing the crisis, the virus as more serious than it actually is. And a lot of that's due to the media and politicians who are trying to take advantage of a crisis in order to gain power.

00:39:22 So it's giving too much credence to the virus, too low a view of the church, right?

00:39:28 A lot of the churches that have closed and have still not opened back up are the same

00:39:32 churches that were live streaming before the pandemic ever even happened, you know?

00:39:37 And so it's low view of the church, high view of the virus, and then this truncated,

00:39:43 confused view of what constitutes persecution.

00:39:47 And so you said that, you know, some people, they truncate persecution, they narrow it

00:39:51 to it's, it's, it's only the gospel, right? It's, you can only be persecuted for preaching the

00:39:59 gospel. If you're preaching that homosexuality is a sin and you get locked in jail, that's not

00:40:04 persecution, right? I mean, that's, that, that's the logic that you were explaining. That's what

00:40:08 they would have to say. You know, it's only if you're preaching Christ and him crucified and

00:40:13 get some kind of penalty for that, then you're being persecuted. So there's a truncation with

00:40:18 persecution, this faulty thinking that truncates it and binds it to the gospel. But there's also,

00:40:25 and you were getting at this, there's also this truncation of persecution that binds it

00:40:29 to where Christians have to be specifically targeted. And so I just really quickly, I just

00:40:35 want to point out Daniel chapter six, where in Daniel chapter six, it says that, it says,

00:40:41 these high officials and satraps, they came by agreement to the king and said to him,

00:40:45 O King Darius, live forever.

00:40:46 All the high officials of the kingdom

00:40:48 and the prefects and the satraps,

00:40:50 the counselors and the governors

00:40:52 are agreed that the king should establish an ordinance

00:40:54 and enforce an injunction, right?

00:40:57 Some kind of mandate

00:40:59 that whoever makes petition to any God, 0.89

00:41:02 not just Yahweh, not just Christians, right?

00:41:04 But to any God or, and here's, this is crazy,

00:41:07 or petitions, that's just makes a request

00:41:09 from asked from any man. 0.58

00:41:12 So your atheists, your agnostics,

00:41:13 They're all included, everyone, any God or any man for 30 days.

00:41:18 Oh, and it's temporary, right?

00:41:19 Just 15 days to slow the spread, just 30 days of, you know, a ban on prayer to any God,

00:41:25 Buddhist, Hindu, or petitioning any man, the atheist, the agnostic, whoever makes petition

00:41:31 to any God or man for 30 days, except to you, O King, shall be cast into the den of lions. 0.67

00:41:37 And so I would just use that as an example.

00:41:39 And we know Daniel resisted that.

00:41:41 he continued to pray three times a day, as was his custom. So he doesn't even ramp up. I think

00:41:46 that's important too. He doesn't ramp up just to stick it to the man, you know, but he just

00:41:51 continues with his custom to pray three times a day. And he prays with the windows open. And I

00:41:56 think that's interesting too, because some people say like, he's sticking it to the man. He's

00:41:59 throwing unnecessary punches. But Daniel is in captivity. He's in Babylon. And one of the things

00:42:05 that Solomon actually said, a covenant that he made between God and the people when he christened

00:42:10 the temple, when the temple was built, that was if any man or any woman, even if they were in

00:42:15 captive in a distant land, would point towards this temple and pray towards the temple, that

00:42:21 God would hear their prayer. And so Daniel, with his windows open, even that is not trying to stick

00:42:27 it to the man. That belongs to the substance of his worship, not just the circumstances. It's a

00:42:31 part of the elements or the substance of his worship. He's following a covenant that was

00:42:37 in scripture. And so Daniel does his custom. He's not ramping it up just to make a name for himself

00:42:42 or to play the martyr or to upset the civil magistrate. He's praying three days because

00:42:46 that's what he always did. He's praying with his windows open because that's obeying a covenantal

00:42:50 requirement that Daniel knows because he knows his Old Testament. And Daniel's thrown to the

00:42:58 lion's den. But my whole point in saying that is this was not some kind of edict against only

00:43:06 Daniel, or against Daniel and Shadrach and Meshach and Abednego and all the worshipers

00:43:10 of Yahweh. No one could pray to any god or petition 0.94

00:43:15 any man. It was a universal blanket. And so the most

00:43:19 recent example that I could think of is the one-child policy in China.

00:43:23 So what are you going to say? So the Christians in China who 0.99

00:43:27 are doing the underground house church and getting arrested,

00:43:30 they're being persecuted, a lot of people would say, because that's

00:43:35 unique to Christians, even though that's not, because a lot of Muslims are being persecuted

00:43:39 in China also. But let's just say, for argument's sake, you know, underground house churches are

00:43:43 being persecuted for precisely their underground house church. Well, you know, these people who

00:43:48 have this truncated view of persecution would say, that's real persecution. Well, what would

00:43:51 you say, though, to Christians who have a second child and hide them, right? Because that's a 1.00

00:43:57 universal. That's not just to Christians. That doesn't target Christians. That's any person in

00:44:01 China, you can't have more than one child. And China was doing forced abortions and all these 0.99

00:44:06 kinds of things. And so if a Christian woman is pregnant, by that logic, you would have to say, 0.93

00:44:10 hey, obey the law of the land, Romans 13, submit to the civil magistrate and, you know, go and get 0.94

00:44:16 that forced abortion and let them know that you're pregnant with your second child, because that's

00:44:20 not church. That's not the gospel. That's just life and family and motherhood. And they would 0.81

00:44:26 say at that point in time, the difference is that that would be asking the Christian to sin,

00:44:31 And at which point, well, we can't do that.

00:44:32 But that only brings us back to where I am, where if we comply with the government, you are telling me to sin.

00:44:41 That's right.

00:44:42 Because you are telling me to hand the keys of Christ's church over to Caesar and to let Caesar dictate to the church the terms of worship.

00:44:52 I simply cannot do that.

00:44:54 I cannot and will not do that.

00:44:57 And so that's where those individuals have to respect my conscience, even if they disagree, even if they think my view of the gatherings narrow. It doesn't matter. They need to respect my conscience as informed by scripture.

00:45:13 And I think it's fair I can say this. I can put forward a fairly robust case for why it is that we ought to gather on the Lord's Day and how the health orders infringe on the gathering and the headship of Christ.

00:45:30 Could you actually just do that?

00:45:31 So I was just about to ask you, could you, so you said, okay, so, you know, they would

00:45:35 push back on the one-child policy and say, yeah, but that's telling you to sin.

00:45:39 And then your pushback, your counter to the counter would be, yeah, and me closing my

00:45:43 church is calling me to sin according to my conscience.

00:45:47 And so that brings us all the way back to it.

00:45:48 So we talked about the, you know, the truncated, all the false views of persecution.

00:45:53 And we've talked a little bit.

00:45:54 We haven't gotten to statistics or anything, but we, you know, we said that the virus in

00:45:58 general is overblown.

00:45:59 So they're, you know, overblowing the virus, truncating and confusing persecution, but

00:46:05 it really all keeps coming back to ecclesiology, right?

00:46:08 For you, you're saying that would be sin to close my churches.

00:46:11 And that's because of what you believe about the church.

00:46:14 And it's because of what you believe about the state, because you made a comment, you

00:46:18 know, handing over the keys to my church to Caesar.

00:46:22 And so that being said, could you just, could you explain to our listeners why closing your

00:46:27 church doors, even in the midst of this pandemic, would be a sin? Could you make an ecclesiastical

00:46:35 case for why that would be a sin according to your conscience? Yeah, so the government is

00:46:40 ultimately commanding us to alter what the corporate gathering is. Even their contention

00:46:46 that, and they would say this, that live streaming your services is not infringing on your charter

00:46:52 rights on your in your case constitutional rights because you are still able to exercise all of your

00:46:58 religious freedom you just can't be together and and that doesn't really matter because whether

00:47:04 you're together in person or whether you're together through live stream it's really the same 0.95

00:47:07 thing well no it's not the the gathering has always been an in-person reality and you cannot

00:47:14 function as a body of believers when you're not together you can't practice the one another's

00:47:21 unless you're together in the same place.

00:47:24 When you think about the body as a spiritual organism

00:47:27 that has arms and legs and feet,

00:47:31 when you tell people they cannot be present

00:47:34 for the corporate gathering,

00:47:35 you are telling the body

00:47:37 that certain parts of the body can't be present.

00:47:39 And that is shutting members of the body

00:47:42 off from the gifts that every member has

00:47:45 when they come together in fellowship

00:47:47 and build up one another.

00:47:48 And so I would see in the corporate gathering that you have the means of grace that are available in the Christian life, from the word to prayer, even to singing the ordinances, and that the means of grace are most fully operative on Sunday when the church gathers as one body if you can.

00:48:07 sometimes it's two depending on the size of your facility and and that when you gather in that

00:48:12 particular way you are bringing the entire body together the holy spirit is uniquely present at

00:48:18 that time because the spirit doesn't just indwell each individual believer but he is present among

00:48:24 them first corinthians 3 16 when we gather so that we become a temple collectively not just

00:48:30 individually and and that in the priest word you have the primary means of grace being administered

00:48:35 to the body the filling of the spirit being a a corporate reality not just a private reality

00:48:40 taking place in the corporate gathering and then that that nourishment of the word the filling of

00:48:45 the spirit and the body being set free now minister to each other um is just critical for

00:48:52 the spiritual growth and development of the body to go home and live stream is cutting you off from

00:48:59 all of that yes you're still hearing the preached word but you're not hearing the preached word

00:49:03 with the body in the presence of the body yes you're you're hearing the priest word and singing

00:49:09 but when the fellowship begins you're at home you're not with the body and so essentially what

00:49:14 we're doing is we're cutting christians off from the ordinary means of grace which i believe are

00:49:18 most operative in the corporate gathering and that is stifling their spiritual growth and

00:49:22 development because we're we're we're cutting believers off even from all of the working

00:49:28 members of the body yep and so by doing that christ is no longer head of his church now caesar

00:49:34 is because the the government has decided that it's now no longer safe to meet for the greater

00:49:40 public good they can decide anything is for the greater public good and impose that upon the

00:49:45 church and in the same logic would have to mean that christians need to comply romans 13 and so i

00:49:51 i it's it's a it's a headship of christ over his church reality and it gets into the lordship of

00:49:57 christ over the government even as we look at what is the purpose of government why did why did god

00:50:02 put government in place what's its role and function in a society and when the government

00:50:07 begins to transgress into other spheres of authority what is the responsibility of those

00:50:13 spheres of authority in responding to government and pointing that out yep amen i completely agree

00:50:20 um cutting cutting the church off from the ordinary means of grace uh you said like stifling

00:50:27 There's spiritual growth stagnating, this lack of spiritual nourishment.

00:50:32 It just made me think, and I know that you've preached on this text as well,

00:50:35 so I'll be interested to hear your thoughts.

00:50:37 But it made me think of Hebrews 10, of course, verse 25, but backing up to verse 24.

00:50:42 But then I want to cross-reference that with a text in Hebrews 3

00:50:45 that I think the two go hand in hand.

00:50:47 So Hebrews 10, 24 and 25, it says,

00:50:49 And let us consider, right, these are the one and others that you were talking about.

00:50:52 Because verse 25 says, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some.

00:50:57 But verse 24, if you back up just a little bit, it says, let us consider how to stir

00:51:01 up one another or exhort one another.

00:51:02 It's the same kind of phrase, exhort or stir one another up to love and good works, comma.

00:51:08 It's not even a period.

00:51:09 He's not even taking a breath.

00:51:11 The very next statement, in the same breath, not neglecting to meet together, as is the

00:51:17 habit of some, but encouraging one another and all the more as the day draws near.

00:51:21 And so basically, if you look at Hebrews 10, 24 and 25, it seems as though the apostle is saying, we need to be adamantly thinking and considering how we can exhort one another, spur one another on, stir one another up, these one another's that propel us, that bolster our faith, that feed and nourish us spiritually and supernaturally.

00:51:45 We need to be thinking about that all the time.

00:51:48 And then the very next statement, I mean, it's the same statement, but the next phrase

00:51:52 of the statement is not neglecting the gathering.

00:51:55 And so I look at that in exegeting Hebrews 10, 24, and 25, and I look at that as the

00:52:00 implicit point of that is that the chief context, not the only, but the chief context where

00:52:08 believers most naturally stir one another up to love and good works is the gathering.

00:52:15 So I think that's what the apostle is getting at,

00:52:17 is we need to be considering how we can further bolster one another's faith

00:52:21 by stirring each other up to love and good works,

00:52:23 and the very next thing out of his mouth is not neglecting to gather.

00:52:27 Because the gathering is, I think the implicit point is,

00:52:30 the gathering is the chief context in which we stir one another up.

00:52:34 And then if you take that and cross-reference it over to Hebrews 3,

00:52:37 verse 12 and 13, it says,

00:52:40 take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart leading you to fall

00:52:47 away from the living God. So he's talking about apostasy, the danger of apostasy. You and I both

00:52:53 know that if they, you know, 1 John chapter 2, they went out from us because they were never

00:52:57 one of us. And so we wouldn't say that this is somebody losing their salvation, but we would say

00:53:01 that there is a very real possibility that someone who claims to be a brother, who bears the name of

00:53:06 Christ, who professes Christ, doesn't actually possess Christ. And so there can be people who

00:53:11 are part of the visible church. They could be members on our roster and we need to take extra

00:53:16 care lest there be any of us even, even ministers who would say on that final day, Lord, Lord,

00:53:22 you know, that have an evil, unbelieving heart that would eventually lead us to fall away from

00:53:26 the living God. And so by contrast, how do we take care of what should we do? Verse 13, very next

00:53:32 verse, but exhort one another. It's the same phrase as stir one another up, Hebrews 10, 24.

00:53:38 Now it's Hebrews 3, 13. Be careful because you can have an unbelieving heart that would lead you to

00:53:43 apostasy, to lead you to fall away from the living God. So instead of that, verse 13, exhort one

00:53:50 another every day, as long as it is called today, that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness

00:53:54 of sin. So my point is what I would argue in that, in terms of ecclesiology, and I know you'll agree

00:54:00 with this pastor james is that the gathering it's kind of like a logical three-step process so

00:54:05 first step the gathering is the chief context for stirring one another up yes i believe that's the

00:54:11 lord's day gathering number two we need to be always considering how to stir one another up

00:54:17 because it's one of the chief defenses that the lord has given to us to guard against apostasy

00:54:22 yes so if you take that just logically and you think about this we basically have the physical

00:54:27 threat that comes by gathering of the virus but we have the spiritual threat to the soul the very

00:54:34 soul of man that comes by not gathering and so at the end of the day now we're not gnostics both

00:54:40 matter but but if we had to say what's more important the soul of a man or his body we would

00:54:45 have to say the soul and so really what we're trying to weigh here is how serious is the threat

00:54:50 of the virus to the body and how serious is the threat of not gathering and stirring one another

00:54:56 up to love and good works, how big, because that's one of our chief defenses, our barrier,

00:55:02 our shield to apostasy, how serious is the spiritual threat that comes by not gathering?

00:55:06 And so what I would say, I would look at that, and I told you this before we recorded, I would say

00:55:09 there actually are some circumstances where if, you know, if I live in a coastal town and the

00:55:14 mayor gives me a call and says, there's a tsunami of biblical proportions coming, and it's a Saturday

00:55:20 night, it's coming Sunday morning at 10 a.m., you need to cancel church and get all your people

00:55:25 out there because, because the death rate is going to be 100%. Then yeah, we're going to cancel church

00:55:30 and we're going to use that Sunday morning to get, get everybody out of dodge. But here's the deal.

00:55:36 In that scenario, number one, everything would be canceled. Dispensaries, weed dispensaries and

00:55:41 Black Lives Matter movements and everything would be canceled. But, but number two, we would be

00:55:46 missing one week of church. Now, granted our building would be, you know, but we could, we

00:55:49 the very next Sunday, Lord willing, we can meet in the field or whatever we have to do. And so

00:55:53 we're missing one week of church which you know over here the spiritual threat we're neglecting

00:55:58 the gathering there's a spiritual threat of apostasy but we're neglecting one week so the

00:56:03 spiritual threat is low i guess is my argument but over here tsunami the perceived physical threat to

00:56:09 the body is very very high so with this immense physical threat to the body and a relatively low

00:56:16 spiritual threat to the soul because we're only talking about missing one week it's an easy

00:56:20 decision but but when all of a sudden the data keeps coming in and it's not just weeks anymore

00:56:24 15 days to slow the spread but it's it's a year has gone by and more months are going by and

00:56:30 you're talking about neglecting not not just one lord's day gathering but you're talking about

00:56:34 neglecting 50 60 70 soon to be 100 lord the spiritual threat is growing for apostasy and

00:56:42 your role as a shepherd is i mean you've got to be feeling as a shepherd of god's flock

00:56:47 a righteous anxiety building in your in your soul like i've got to shepherd the flock of god

00:56:55 and the chief concept yes i can give them a phone call and yes they can live stream but the chief

00:56:59 context for stirring one another up and exhorting one another so that we don't have a believing

00:57:03 heart that leads us to fall away from the living god is the gathering and that's what hebrew says

00:57:08 and so the spiritual threat is growing as time keeps going on and as time is going on we keep

00:57:13 getting more and more data saying that the virus isn't nearly as threatening as we originally

00:57:17 thought it was. So the perceived physical threat to the body keeps going down. And the more Sundays

00:57:22 we miss, the very real, tangible, spiritual threat to the soul is going up. And it seems

00:57:29 pretty simple. And yet pastors and Christians all over the world don't get it. I don't understand.

00:57:36 Yeah, just think about this. So everything you're saying is excellent. I'm tracking with you. And

00:57:41 here's part of the challenge. A lot of Christians aren't in churches that are functioning the way

00:57:46 way they ought to function a lot of folks show up for church on sunday hear kind of a watered

00:57:53 down sermon sing a couple of hymns and uh and then go home you know they might get asked hey

00:57:59 how you doing fine you know they might get asked did you see the game last night talk about that

00:58:04 a little bit but there's not any real meaningful fellowship going on so so functionally sunday

00:58:12 morning is a spectator sport they just come they take and they leave well in a real biblical

00:58:18 context with a real vibrant healthy body where where you're going to be asked how are you doing

00:58:24 and it's not just like i'm doing fine it's like no how are you doing and i want to get involved

00:58:30 in your life to the point that if you're not willing to have that kind of involvement you

00:58:35 end up leaving because you just don't like people asking how you're doing with that level of

00:58:40 intentionality it's a it's a completely different body life and so when people come to grace life

00:58:45 church for example even from churches in our area that are complying and they see what's going on

00:58:51 i mean they're just like it's a breath of fresh air people come into our gathering

00:58:55 and and they they've they forgot what they were missing they we've got folks who come in and

00:59:00 they're in tears from the the first song until the closing prayer because they just forgot about how

00:59:06 much they needed to be with the body of christ so whether it's they've forgotten what they once

00:59:13 enjoyed in their church or they've never actually enjoyed real healthy vibrant fellowship that that

00:59:19 contributes to this entire this entire issue you're right some people you can't miss what you've never

00:59:25 had you can't that's what you're saying so that's a great point i didn't even think about you're

00:59:29 saying that maybe some of of the opposing argument is coming from professing christians and maybe they

00:59:35 really are Christians, but who have been a part of a church that it's maybe not as faithful in

00:59:39 his preaching. That's more of a spectator sport. That's not stirring one another up to love and

00:59:43 good works. That's not rightly administering the sacraments of the Lord's Supper and baptism. And

00:59:48 so for them, it's just like, James, what's the big deal? Me and my friends are getting the same

00:59:54 thing live stream. And you're saying if a church really, for lack of a better phrase, if a church

00:59:59 really sucks, then yeah, your live stream living room experience might be comparable. But that's

01:00:07 not the kind of church that we're talking about. Is that what you would say? Exactly. Yeah. They

01:00:12 can live stream because they're functionally live streaming anyway.

01:00:17 That's profound. Functionally live streaming already. That's good. All right. Well, I feel

01:00:24 like I've already taken enough of your time. And I know that your heart is not to be famous. You

01:00:28 want to make Christ famous, but Christ in his providence has made you in this season famous.

01:00:34 And for such a time as this, and by God's grace, with the spotlight being shined on you, I think

01:00:38 you've done a wonderful job, you, your wife, and your church, in being faithful as long as the

01:00:43 light is there, and even when it's not. And so that said, I know that you're getting lots of

01:00:48 requests for interviews, and so I don't want to take too much of your time, but this is what we

01:00:51 like to do on the show. We like to have our guest, kind of similar to Tom Askell and Jared Longshore

01:00:58 they have the armory where they keep a guy on for just a few minutes extra. And so we call it

01:01:02 our responders. Those are our club members. If you're not a responder and you're listening to

01:01:06 this and you want to become a responder, get access to all of our bonus content. We encourage

01:01:11 you to do so. You can do it on our website, www.rightresponseministries.com slash donate.

01:01:19 So James, I'd like to keep you on. And just to whet our listeners' appetite, I'm going to give

01:01:23 the question ahead of time before we go ahead and close out this episode. But here's my question.

01:01:29 And I know you're a master's grad, so you're a MacArthur boy. So here we go. John MacArthur

01:01:33 famously said, Christ, not Caesar, is the head of the church. And I would certainly agree with

01:01:38 the statement. I know you would. However, I personally would be willing to go even a little

01:01:42 further in saying that Christ, not Caesar, is actually also head of the state. I would have

01:01:48 some scriptures to back that up. Would you personally agree with this statement? I think

01:01:52 there's a sense in which you would. And then what sense would you disagree? That'll be our question.

01:01:56 We'll talk about that on our bonus hour edition, if you don't mind sticking around. But could we

01:02:01 just close the episode by you just telling our listeners, how can they be praying for you? How

01:02:06 can they keep up with you and follow you? Even if you don't want to be followed, maybe, you know,

01:02:10 follow you in a way that doesn't get you in trouble. What can we do to help? Well, you can

01:02:14 be praying that we would win some of the issues that are in the courts right now. We could use

01:02:19 some wins and uh and we really think there's some opportunity for some wins on the horizon so we

01:02:24 could you could be praying for just what's in the court system currently that would be huge

01:02:28 uh you can certainly be praying for our government uh and that includes their salvation um but we

01:02:34 really need to see our province open up um we need to get our building back and and be able to

01:02:41 carry on and and execute ministry you can just be praying that the truth will continually come out

01:02:47 that that the the real science and facts that revolve around this virus continue to come out

01:02:53 that our our our province and even our country would wake up and realize what's really going on

01:02:59 and and that this has been overblown um and and then for our church you know just that

01:03:05 we would have the grace and the wisdom to be able to to to persevere we're still in kind of the heat

01:03:13 of a window where enforcement could come basically every single Sunday, we walk into the potentiality

01:03:20 of an arrest. And that wouldn't just necessarily implicate me, it could implicate my entire

01:03:25 leadership. And so we continue to need grace and wisdom to be able to navigate the tumultuous time

01:03:33 that we're in. And yeah, we just pray for the health of our body, pray that if there are any

01:03:39 issues in the body that need to be addressed, they would be brought to the surface where

01:03:43 we can ensure that we're caring for those folks and meeting those needs, and that Christ

01:03:50 would just continue to be glorified through the work that's happening at Grace Life Church.

01:03:55 Amen.

01:03:56 Well, James, I'm so grateful for your ministry, and I'm so grateful to have found you.

01:04:00 In God's providence, you know, a lot of people have been able to benefit from your ministry,

01:04:05 and otherwise we likely would have not.

01:04:08 And so I know that it's been difficult, but I'm grateful for the way that the Lord has used you in this hour.

01:04:13 Would you mind if I actually just pray for you even now?

01:04:16 I would love it. Please do.

01:04:18 Okay. Father, thank you for Pastor James Coates.

01:04:20 Lord, thank you for the blessing that he's been to me and to many other pastors and Christians all over the world.

01:04:25 Father, we pray for favor with his court hearings and cases.

01:04:29 Lord, we pray for righteousness.

01:04:32 Lord, we pray that those who you have sovereignly appointed in positions of civil authority,

01:04:40 that they would legislate and that they would rule righteously, not just in favor of Pastor

01:04:45 James Coates because it would benefit him, but because it's the right thing.

01:04:49 We pray that they would do righteous.

01:04:52 They would do righteousness.

01:04:53 And so, Father, we pray that you would convict them of sin.

01:04:56 And Father, like Pastor James already said, we pray most of all that you would save them,

01:05:01 that you would reveal to them their sin

01:05:05 and reveal to them Christ

01:05:07 as the only substitute for sinners,

01:05:12 the only hope of salvation.

01:05:14 We pray that you would give them

01:05:15 the gift of faith and repentance

01:05:16 that they would turn from their sin

01:05:18 and turn in personal trust

01:05:20 to the Lord Jesus Christ

01:05:21 and his finished work

01:05:22 on the behalf of all those who trust in him.

01:05:26 Father, we pray that you would strengthen

01:05:27 Pastor James Church,

01:05:28 that you would give them courage.

01:05:29 And Lord, I just pray for an immense measure of wisdom for Pastor James and his elders.

01:05:37 We're grateful for texts like James that say, if any man lacks wisdom, let him ask God who

01:05:44 gives without finding fault, without reproach, that you don't hold our sin against us, but

01:05:50 you generously give wisdom to those who are humble enough to ask.

01:05:54 So Lord, I pray that you would bless him and his leadership team with wisdom as they navigate

01:05:58 unprecedented waters, at least in our lifetime. And so Lord, we pray all these things ultimately

01:06:04 that you might be famous, that you might get the glory, that your name would be great in all the

01:06:12 earth. And we ask these things in Jesus' name. Amen. Amen. Thank you, brother. Yeah. Pastor

01:06:19 James, thanks for coming on the show. That concludes our episode. As a special thank you

01:06:24 for your gift of any amount, we'll be happy to send you a free digital book from our store.

01:06:28 To access this offer, visit rightresponseministries.com slash offer.

01:06:33 We highly recommend Pastor Joel's book, Am I Truly Saved?

01:06:37 If you or someone you know has wrestled with doubts about the love of God,

01:06:41 this would be a great resource.

01:06:43 As a reminder, to get this offer, go to rightresponseministries.com slash offer.

01:06:47 And thank you for your generous support.

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The NXR Podcast - June 02, 2021

THEOLOGY APPLIED - The Biblical Criteria For Genuine Persecution

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