The NXR Podcast - THEOLOGY APPLIED - The Biblical Criteria For Genuine Persecution

00:00:00.000 All right, you guys are in for a real treat. On this episode, we have Pastor James Coates in

00:00:06.540 Edmonton, Alberta, who has really reached international news for being imprisoned

00:00:13.520 for five weeks for continuing to keep his church open on the Lord's Day during COVID-19 against

00:00:21.160 the civil magistrate's orders. And one of the big issues that we get to in this episode

00:00:26.260 is really kind of addressing those who would oppose Pastor James Coates,

00:00:31.360 who would profess to be followers of Christ.

00:00:33.860 There are people who say that he's not actually being persecuted,

00:00:37.060 that he's just playing the martyr,

00:00:39.460 that he's really just experiencing the appropriate consequences 1.00

00:00:43.080 for his foolish decisions. 0.99

00:00:45.500 And there are professing Christians who would say, 0.99

00:00:47.740 this isn't real persecution.

00:00:49.080 Pastor James is just playing the martyr.

00:00:51.380 And so that's the big question that we address in this episode,

00:00:54.720 and we try to provide for you a biblical criteria for what actually constitutes persecution according

00:01:01.400 to the Word of God. So enjoy. Applying God's Word to every aspect of life. This is Theology Applied.

00:01:15.060 All right, so we're privileged to have as a special guest today on Theology Applied,

00:01:19.220 Pastor James Coates. James Coates lives in Edmonton, Alberta, is that correct?

00:01:24.720 That's correct.

00:01:26.060 All right. And so would you just take a moment and introduce yourselves? I think a lot of our listeners will be familiar with you and what's been going on with your church and the persecution that you've been experiencing. We're going to talk about that, but go ahead and just introduce yourself to our listeners. Let them know who you are.

00:01:40.800 Yeah, my name is James Coates. I'm a graduate of the Master's Seminary twice. I graduated from TMS with an MDiv in May 2010, and then last year with a doctor of ministry.

00:01:54.960 and I've been pastoring Grace Life Church now for nearly 11 years and have been in the pulpit

00:02:02.100 that entire time and just faithfully preaching God's word and find myself in the midst of

00:02:08.680 quite a significant battle. You know, one of the things that I thought about sharing with

00:02:12.640 your folks is one of the things that is sort of levied against me is that in this season,

00:02:17.640 I'm seeking attention. I'm trying to make a big name for myself. And I wanted to highlight that

00:02:22.820 that's totally inconsistent with my life and and just um just how i've carried out my ministry i

00:02:29.400 don't have a blog that i'm utilizing i have no social media presence no facebook no twitter

00:02:35.800 i haven't sought in any way shape or form to broaden my ministry beyond the walls of grace

00:02:40.620 life church and i've just been faithfully preaching the word verse by verse through books of the bible

00:02:45.380 these last 11 years and so the attention that i'm getting now is is simply by virtue of the fact

00:02:51.240 that I'm following my convictions and walking in obedience to Christ. And that has put me in this

00:02:57.020 position. And it's not the most comfortable position to be in. I certainly wouldn't have

00:03:01.900 chosen it and really believe it chose me. And my responsibility in it is to just be faithful.

00:03:08.960 Yeah. Amen. So how long were you? Because you were actually arrested. You actually spent time

00:03:14.080 in prison. How long were you in prison? And when did you get out? How long have you been out now?

00:03:18.760 I was in prison for 35 days and it's hard to even keep track of how long I've been out. It was

00:03:24.840 toward the end of March that I got out and it feels like a long time ago. It feels like I've

00:03:30.300 been out for a while. And I would say that even at this point in time, just in the context of God

00:03:35.180 using all things for good, there's just nothing negative lingering in my life whatsoever from

00:03:40.680 that experience in jail. I've seen the Lord just continually work in my life for good and just

00:03:48.120 give him praise just for how kind he's been toward me. Praise God. How are your wife and children?

00:03:53.760 How many children do you have? I got two boys. One is 18 and the other is 11. And they're doing

00:04:00.280 well. I mean, we just asked our oldest a moment ago, if life was normal for him. And for him,

00:04:06.560 it is mostly normal that there's tension around church. And certainly my imprisonment was a

00:04:11.580 difficult time for him. But for the most part, his day to day living is is is functionally normal,

00:04:17.940 which is good. I mean, that's the way I'd prefer it. And I think our 11 year old would say the

00:04:22.540 same thing. Now, we often talk a lot about COVID-19 and, and my government and all that

00:04:28.200 we're going through. So there's no question that there are moments that are more tense in our home

00:04:32.440 than they would be otherwise. But, but I think they're doing well. And my wife, I mean,

00:04:37.740 she's a huge support, couldn't have asked for a better wife, a better partner. The Lord has

00:04:42.900 just blessed me richly with her and she's dialed in incredibly supportive and and is there to

00:04:50.440 encourage me when I'm weary and so she's doing well she's she's faithfully putting one foot in

00:04:57.440 front of the next and and just been a a wonderful blessing in my life that's great so your family's

00:05:04.320 doing well you're doing well you've been out for some time got out about mid-march you spent about

00:05:08.740 five weeks or so in prison. Well, at the church level, so that's your main call as a minister of

00:05:15.800 the gospel, a local church pastor, and it sounds like that's always what you were about, and God

00:05:20.120 has just providentially used these circumstances to extend your ministry beyond your church, but

00:05:26.160 I know that your church is still your priority as a local pastor. How is your church doing? Because

00:05:31.280 it's one thing for your wife to be dialed in, like you said, you use that phrase, and for your

00:05:34.840 children to be on board. But I know as a pastor, I was pastoring in California when COVID first hit,

00:05:41.620 and I'm now in Texas. But I just know that many pastors just struggled with division among elder

00:05:50.000 teams, among congregations. Just a lot of people have a lot of strong opinions on how churches

00:05:57.900 should respond to the virus. And so, so with the uniqueness of your situation, I'm just curious,

00:06:05.200 how have you lost people? I'm sure you've gained people, but have you lost people from the church?

00:06:10.860 Are there people, has, has everybody at the church level been on board with your decision to say,

00:06:15.440 hey, no, we're going to, we're going to stand up to this and we're going to continue. We're not

00:06:19.000 right. We're not just throwing unnecessary punches. So we're not just being, you know,

00:06:23.040 rebellious for the sake of being rebellious, but we're going to stand up in the sense that we are

00:06:26.900 going to continue to do what we believe God's called us to do, regardless of whether or not

00:06:30.940 the state tells us to stop. Is everyone with your church on board with that? Have you, have you

00:06:34.940 struggled to shepherd people along in that decision? Our church is in a really good place.

00:06:41.880 You know, I think there were people in our congregation who had an appetite for remaining

00:06:46.520 open right away. And, and even in my own case, to be honest with you, it was not an easy decision to,

00:06:53.660 to not meet and to comply with the governing authorities. I did that reluctantly. It was never

00:07:01.400 something that I felt incredibly good about. And so we did that for a little bit. And there was

00:07:07.260 already some support for opening our doors. And then I started to preach some sermons that were

00:07:12.980 pretty key. I preached on Romans 13 back in, I think, June. And it was titled putting the

00:07:19.360 government in its place and that was more of a straight just preaching of romans 13 1 to 7

00:07:25.200 and uh and then i preached on the the paragraph in hebrews 10 where we have the the call to not

00:07:32.960 forsake the gathering and and so i preached that and that kind of set the table for the decision

00:07:39.260 to open so that we had quite a bit of support already at that point in time where we knew look

00:07:44.480 we can be subject to the government but that doesn't mean that we're gonna comply with

00:07:49.020 everything that they want us to do. And then if we are at a step with the government at some

00:07:53.500 certain point, well, we're going to submit to whatever consequences they want to enforce against

00:07:58.620 us as part of our subjection, but we're not going to obey them as though they hold the position of

00:08:03.540 God. And so our people were ready to open up at that point in time. Now, there were some who were

00:08:10.160 not of the same mind. And really, that was super helpful because they began to interact with us

00:08:17.620 an email and began to poke holes and and and challenge us and our thinking to force us to

00:08:24.560 tighten things up and be more robust in addressing this issue from a governmental perspective romans

00:08:30.800 13 and even on an ecclesiological front and so i'm i'm so thankful for those interactions now

00:08:38.060 a lot of those folks and and it's not a it's not a lot of families like if i had to count households

00:08:42.480 it wouldn't shock me if we've lost less than 10 households in this entire time which is not a lot

00:08:48.320 when you think about it at that point in time we would have been a church that on Sundays would

00:08:53.220 have had an average of 350 pre pre-pandemic and so we haven't lost a lot of folks and and the ones

00:09:01.000 that were protesting did subsequently end up leaving our church but but so thankful for the

00:09:08.780 engagement we had with them and and still love those folks and still care for those folks and

00:09:14.060 want them to to flourish in the lord and they're in other churches that we would consider solid

00:09:18.880 but are complying and so uh so anyway that was kind of where things were at heading into the

00:09:24.360 fall and and uh we didn't quite have everyone coming back yet but then i preached a sermon

00:09:30.020 on december 20th that was kind of laying down the gauntlet things were heating up with the

00:09:34.960 government the rcmp was coming to our services ahs was coming to our services and the rcmp

00:09:41.120 it's our police force and media was outside our gathering and you know taking video and

00:09:47.900 photo of our our parking lot and people going into the facility and so i preached that sermon

00:09:53.420 which addressed the ecclesiology it addressed the the science and the medicine it addressed the law

00:10:01.540 and as it relates to the supreme law of our land the charter of rights and freedoms and so

00:10:06.140 that sermon was a catalyst for our church just coming back like anybody who was just not sure

00:10:11.980 that that sermon uh brought our folks back and then you know from and then my imprisonment takes

00:10:18.460 place and if there were any stragglers at that point in time i mean that clinched it for them

00:10:24.020 i mean they they they went from being not sure at that point to you know all in on the stand that

00:10:30.740 we were taking. And so that my imprisonment really was a blessing for our church really

00:10:36.580 united us. I mean, if you could have been there on a Sunday in our, in our, in our gathering

00:10:42.040 that I wasn't there for the, the, the testimony that I heard of what was happening in those

00:10:47.580 gatherings is just everything you would want the corporate gathering to be. And I got to

00:10:52.580 taste it once I got out and have been able to taste it since then. And so our church

00:10:58.620 is doing really well. We're united. I'm not sure that we have anyone that is in a position where

00:11:05.440 they're considering leaving Grace Life at this point in time. I think they know where we're at.

00:11:09.820 And there's folks that haven't even come to the gathering at all because they've opted to live

00:11:13.940 stream. And we're not binding their conscience on that. There's good reasons for that in some cases.

00:11:19.220 And they're so supportive of the stand that we've taken. And so our church is doing really well.

00:11:25.180 and and you know there is a an uncomfortable side of it for me because shepherding your people

00:11:30.940 without a facility is more difficult and and and there's a lot that our energy is going into that

00:11:37.940 it wouldn't be going into if if if we weren't under the gun and the pressure of our government

00:11:43.980 right now so there's no question that there's some discomfort for me as far as knowing how our

00:11:50.360 people are really doing but that's when you lean on the ministries that you've put in place to care

00:11:56.060 for your people your bible study shepherds that they're caring for the people that are in their

00:12:00.340 studies and then as we connect with them we can get a pulse on how everyone's doing and make sure

00:12:05.800 that that no one's falling through the cracks as it were yeah so where are you currently meeting

00:12:10.980 is it week by week like basically like every monday morning when you wish that you could just

00:12:15.540 be expositing god's word exegeting preparing for your sermon you're doing administrative work and

00:12:19.960 trying to figure out where are we going to meet the next sunday is that is that where you're at

00:12:22.780 you know what that's classified so at this point in time we have just recently come into a season

00:12:28.960 where we think that given the pressure from our government we we need to kind of go silent on

00:12:34.960 what we're doing uh or not for that matter and so we are at a point now where we're trying to

00:12:41.360 encourage our people to be uh tight-lipped on that and i guess that starts with me because

00:12:46.020 they're going to listen to this interview and so if i'm being if i'm being public on what we're

00:12:50.380 doing or not then then i'm not setting a good example right fair enough yeah that totally

00:12:55.460 makes sense i didn't even think about that yeah wouldn't it wouldn't be necessarily advantageous

00:12:59.340 for you to share on a public venue like this where you guys are going to meet this next sunday so

00:13:02.980 well i have been just you know i have been but it's just it's just now it's just now that we're

00:13:07.800 going you know what we need to be approaching this a little bit differently so yep innocent

00:13:13.440 as doves and cunning and shrewd as serpents. That's good. So let's go ahead and just dive

00:13:18.720 in. I told you, you know, we talked a little bit before we started recording. And one of

00:13:22.380 the things that I really wanted to just hear your response, give you a chance to respond

00:13:27.540 to basically, you know, there are some people professing Christians. Now, whether or not

00:13:32.700 they're truly regenerate, I don't know. And I have every reason, every inclination to assume

00:13:38.260 that, you know, that many of them are truly Christians, regenerate believers, followers

00:13:42.000 of the Lord Jesus Christ, and yet still there seems to be a group of people that as it pertains

00:13:48.920 to your situation, your arrest, and your decision to continue physically meeting with your church,

00:13:54.760 there are those who would say, I don't think this is actual persecution. I don't think he's

00:13:59.700 being persecuted. I think he's just experiencing the necessary consequences, the practical results

00:14:07.740 of a foolish decision i wrote it down so i'm just going to read it the way that i wrote it

00:14:12.180 you know these individuals insist that you and other pastors like you are merely experiencing 0.93

00:14:17.420 the appropriate consequences for your unnecessary rebellious actions towards the civil magistrates

00:14:23.700 very reasonable guidelines for the churches for churches exclusively based on the science

00:14:31.080 right so for someone who's saying that someone who professes to be a follower of jesus and they say

00:14:35.680 this isn't persecution. Pastor James, you know, people are patting him on the back and encouraging

00:14:42.180 him, but he's not being persecuted. He's just experiencing the appropriate consequences for

00:14:49.100 making foolish decisions. These orders have been based on the science and Pastor James is putting 0.97

00:14:56.460 people's lives in danger. How would you respond to someone who says you're playing the murderer?

00:15:02.580 you're not actually being persecuted you know there's so much there so let's see if i can't

00:15:07.720 try and address all of it at the outset i think what that betrays on two levels is um

00:15:14.480 a failure to understand the the conscience and the priority of the conscience and then to

00:15:22.200 just a really weak grasp of what persecution is but let's deal with the conscience at the outset

00:15:28.700 we have to obey our conscience. Anything not done from faith is sin, Romans 14. So we are in a

00:15:37.780 culture where even in the Christian community, those who profess faith in Christ, there is just 0.97

00:15:43.920 no room for conscience and principle. There's no room for, I can't do that because my conscience 0.85

00:15:51.320 doesn't allow me to do that. As a pastor, one of my responsibilities as I shepherd God's people

00:15:58.680 is to be a steward of their conscience. Christ is Lord of the conscience. And so I need to ensure

00:16:05.840 that one, I'm properly informing the consciences of my people, and then two, never doing anything

00:16:12.340 that would violate their conscience. So when it comes to me personally, as a shepherd of the flock,

00:16:18.640 knowing that I'm going to stand before Christ and give an account for my ministry, I have to act in

00:16:23.420 a manner that's consistent with my conscience based on the information i have from god's word

00:16:29.120 and so christians ought to respect that the only thing a christian could do is say well

00:16:34.440 no it has nothing to do with conscience and then read ill motive into it and say he's just doing

00:16:39.660 this as you've said to to be a martyr or uh to make a name for himself and that's just reading

00:16:46.260 my motive which we're told not to do and and furthermore you've got individuals who are

00:16:52.360 chiming in on this that have no idea who i am they're not they're not privy to my ministry

00:16:56.800 they've done nothing to to really hear me out and consider uh where i'm coming from even scripturally

00:17:03.600 on this piece so i think fundamentally one of the issues here is conscience our government doesn't

00:17:09.740 respect conscience the christian community doesn't respect conscience and conscience is critical

00:17:14.100 we have to honor the conscience anything not done from faith is sin so there's that piece

00:17:20.260 on the conscience piece

00:17:23.120 because that's so good

00:17:23.940 and I so appreciate that you said that

00:17:25.960 one of the things that I wrestled through

00:17:28.700 so there's my conscience

00:17:29.960 and then as you've already said

00:17:30.920 there's the conscience of your congregants

00:17:33.520 as a pastor

00:17:34.040 the sheep that you're shepherding

00:17:35.300 and we want to

00:17:37.080 one way that I would bifurcate it

00:17:39.240 in terms of authority

00:17:39.940 there's the authority of counsel

00:17:41.200 and the authority of command

00:17:42.280 and so we don't want to command someone

00:17:45.260 especially if it's something

00:17:46.760 that's not explicitly clear in scripture

00:17:48.680 we don't want to command someone to do something that would be a sin against their conscience that's

00:17:52.600 what you're saying and with the conscience we recognize it can be sharpened um by by the holy

00:17:57.960 spirit his conviction working in conjunction with the word of god so so the the holy spirit

00:18:02.820 illuminating the word to us most ordinarily happening through the preached word that

00:18:07.440 sharpens the conscience and a person's conscience can be dulled um through sin and there are some

00:18:12.460 instances when a person because of a refusal to repent of sin an impenitent posture of heart

00:18:20.020 their conscience can be so dulled by their sin that we actually would command them to sin against

00:18:25.560 to sin against their conscience because it is something explicit in scripture like thou shalt

00:18:31.160 not steal but their conscience says you know well my conscience tells me it's actually really good

00:18:35.820 for me to steal and really you know and so so there there are people who are so far gone but

00:18:39.920 most ordinarily with a conscience because we're made in the image of god even an unbeliever if

00:18:44.740 their conscience is not so dulled by by sin um there's this general moral compass and what we

00:18:52.040 want to do is we want to command the things that are commanded scripture the things that are less

00:18:55.900 clear in scripture we we might have still a conviction as a shepherd as a pastor but we

00:19:00.980 want to use the authority of counsel where we're using the word of god to sharpen their conscience

00:19:05.420 but giving some leeway before we just outright say thou shalt do this or you must do this we're

00:19:11.960 saying i really think god's word says this like children for instance i'm always encouraging my

00:19:16.680 congregation uh children are a blessing and you're blessed if you have a lot of them what i'm not

00:19:21.320 doing is saying thou shalt have five children or more right but i am constantly pushing this

00:19:27.780 this general message of the goodness of children and you know what i mean and so anyway so my point

00:19:33.780 is to say, now, as it pertains to the choice of an elder team, shepherds, should we meet or should

00:19:38.840 we not? Part of what I wrestled through with my elders, because we had a couple elders who we

00:19:43.700 shouldn't meet, and we had a couple who we know were saying we should meet. Well, part of the

00:19:47.460 reason we ended up meeting was, and this was one of the arguments that I used, was that it allowed

00:19:51.680 for both sets of people in our congregation to obey their conscience. If we shut down the church

00:19:59.160 and don't meet, even if that's my conscience as a shepherd, as a pastor, right? So I'm following

00:20:04.700 my conscience, but it's very likely, it stands to reason that there may be members in my congregation

00:20:10.180 who are very convinced in their conscience from their reading of the word of God that the church

00:20:15.000 should meet. And so if I say the church isn't meeting, then basically I am binding every

00:20:20.040 conscience in my congregation to forsake the gathering by force on the Lord's day. Whereas

00:20:28.480 if i say we're going to meet and i say and all of you better be there you're under church discipline

00:20:33.020 now i'm binding the conscience the other way but there's a middle approach which it sounds like

00:20:37.420 that's what you're taking i think that's so wise and it's a proper understanding of the significant

00:20:41.320 of the conscience and counseling rather than commanding with things that are less clear and

00:20:45.840 saying look part of the reason we're gathering isn't because we think that that um that there's

00:20:51.160 no possible way a person could come to a conviction from the scripture not to gather but we're saying

00:20:56.980 there's certainly a possible way and we as elders have have come to this conviction that we should

00:21:02.380 gather and so we are by this choice we are accommodating both consciences um so we're saying

00:21:08.400 that we're giving a special grace to those of you who aren't going to gather at this time whereas

00:21:12.400 ordinarily we would follow up as your shepherds if you missed months of church and have some serious

00:21:17.560 conversations but we're giving a special grace during the season to those who choose not to

00:21:22.340 gather, but we're still, we are gathering and administering the ordinary means of grace for

00:21:27.320 those who have, in their conscience, are bound to gather. And so I think that's so good, and I'm so

00:21:33.620 glad to hear that you're doing that, and I'm sometimes grieved when other pastors don't see,

00:21:39.000 I think they just see it as two approaches, either no gathering or gathering, and I wish

00:21:44.180 more would see this third approach, that the choice to gather doesn't mean, that doesn't

00:21:50.040 mean by default that we're choosing to gather and we're and we're saying everyone has to be here

00:21:55.640 right there's no like a choice of an elders to gather doesn't mean that you and I think some of

00:22:01.560 our listeners would be surprised to hear that because they'd see man this guy you know was

00:22:04.920 imprisoned and his face is on the news and all this kind of stuff and they and they would you

00:22:09.240 know they would write you up they would make you out James to be like this hardcore zealot and I

00:22:13.920 think some of our listeners would be would be pleasantly surprised to hear yeah James is making

00:22:18.020 this stand and many other people are with him. And he has members in his church who currently

00:22:23.160 aren't attending and they're extending to them grace. So I just think that's, I think that's

00:22:28.420 impressive. Are there any other thoughts on the matter of the conscience that you want to add

00:22:32.000 before you go? Because you have some other reasons you wanted to mention. Well, just that, you know,

00:22:36.040 in our case, our conscience is informed by our ecclesiology. And so from there, you can get into

00:22:42.940 the issue of having a robust ecclesiology and what we what we see in our our day is that the

00:22:50.120 the doctrines of the church that shape the way christians think about the corporate gathering

00:22:56.280 for example which is just an aspect of ecclesiology is is revealing that people think

00:23:02.160 very very lowly of the church that there is not a high view of the church among many and so that's

00:23:09.580 another reason why they're going how in the world can't they just comply with this i mean

00:23:15.500 how is it that that they can't just do what the government's asking them to do and and and they

00:23:21.500 they aren't even allowing for the room room for the conscience but they're also part of that is

00:23:26.300 a failure to even think robustly through this issue ecclesiologically and and so because their

00:23:33.520 ecclesiology is so low there's not even a tension i mean this isn't even a struggle for them i mean

00:23:39.260 they could do live stream zoom church you know until the lord returns and and they love it i

00:23:45.740 mean church at home in your pjs i mean this is phenomenal and and that's just born out of a

00:23:51.780 really poor understanding of what the corporate gathering is how critical it is for our spiritual

00:23:57.940 growth and development how not gathering is is doing a harm to the holiness of the church

00:24:04.180 and so you know to your point we're opening our doors because we believe that's what the lord

00:24:10.340 would have us do then it's on the people to decide a are they convinced they should be gathering

00:24:17.300 b how are they going to wrestle with romans 13 and the whole thing and then c are they willing

00:24:22.800 to assume the risk of gathering because we're not saying that there's no risk with respect to the

00:24:27.300 virus we think the risk is certainly overblown in the mainstream media and by governments but

00:24:34.060 but there is a risk and and it's on every person to assume that level of risk every time you get

00:24:40.480 into a car you're assuming a risk a level of risk that you you weigh the opportunity cost

00:24:47.400 of driving against the risk and you opt to drive and it's the same thing with the corporate

00:24:52.300 gathering and so um you know and it's amazing because at that point in time you get into a

00:24:57.620 whole other issue because then the argument is well if you you assume that risk and and then

00:25:04.600 contract the virus now you're becoming a vector to the rest of the community and so your freedom

00:25:10.580 to to assume risk and go to the gathering and be infected with the virus is now exposing your

00:25:16.740 neighbor and and we just have to understand that all of us have god-given rights that that we have

00:25:23.640 rights that we're we're free to exercise up until the point that our rights begin to infringe on

00:25:28.700 others and if somebody wants to lock themselves in their basement and not come out until the

00:25:33.320 quote-unquote pandemic's over that's their business but just because that's what they

00:25:37.420 want to do doesn't mean everybody else needs to do that and then that gets into a whole issue of

00:25:42.760 you know basically what's happened at present is that the government has turned what were once

00:25:46.960 god-given rights into privileges and so now as long as they have the justification to remove

00:25:52.740 our god-given rights they can which means now they're not god-given and they're not to be

00:25:57.680 protected they're just privileges that we get to exercise when the government tells us we can

00:26:02.240 and so i mean that's getting off into a whole other issue i guess but um but it's it's just

00:26:08.180 it's all connected i mean all of this thing is interconnected and so you go from one thing to

00:26:13.020 the next but beyond that right you got persecution and and people just aren't thinking uh robustly

00:26:20.600 about persecution um you know persecution according to scripture is not merely for the

00:26:26.800 gospel it includes that but jesus says if you're persecuted for righteousness sake

00:26:32.620 righteousness so then the question is is gathering on the lord's day to worship

00:26:38.140 and administer the ordinances and practice the one another's is that unrighteousness and then

00:26:45.400 if you say it is then now your your definition of good and evil is changing with the whims of

00:26:51.640 the culture or based on the circumstances you're in so now it's no longer a matter of exegesis

00:26:57.160 now it's it's a matter of pragmatism and you get to decide when you're not going to obey the lord

00:27:03.940 based on whether or not it's convenient or expedient or whether the culture says it's

00:27:08.020 appropriate to do that or the government allows you to do that so so i think you know the question

00:27:14.220 has to be asked is it righteous to gather and then if you gather and you're you're you experience

00:27:21.640 oppression for that well that's the definition of persecution if it's righteousness to gather

00:27:27.940 and then you experience oppression and enforcement and you suffer to gather then you have just met

00:27:36.420 the definition of persecution and so there's a lot of christians out there that want to go

00:27:40.340 well, this isn't persecution. And so they're going to basically approach it like this, that

00:27:46.280 unless it's persecution, we shouldn't really be defying the government. And so we're going to

00:27:52.480 basically kind of watch this whole thing play out. And when it reaches the threshold of being

00:27:57.460 persecution, then all of a sudden we're going to start obeying the Lord. And now all of a sudden

00:28:02.540 pastors are going to open their doors and their flocks are just going to return. And there's going

00:28:07.880 to be no fear and they're not going to be concerned about the virus and they're going to be ready

00:28:12.560 they're going to be ready to stand against the enforcement arm of the government it's utter

00:28:17.620 foolishness and and so not only is it a bad definition of persecution but you have to be

00:28:23.920 i mean almost omniscient to know when the threshold of persecution is met according to 0.97

00:28:30.520 your definition as if you're going to be able to spot that and then you assume that you're going

00:28:34.640 to have the fortitude at that point in time to open your doors and your people are going to come

00:28:38.740 back it's not going to happen so right i mean this just opens up massive issues on this issue

00:28:45.320 of persecution you've actually addressed this really well and so i've i've been very thankful

00:28:49.660 what you've addressed on this matter i think it's been a helpful contribution to this discussion

00:28:56.400 but but you know persecution fundamentally is experiencing oppression for your beliefs and so

00:29:02.120 if you believe it's righteous to gather in the lord's day and you are experiencing oppression

00:29:06.300 as we are we absolutely are and in some cases our local church is being singled out by governing

00:29:14.200 authorities so that we're actually getting treatment that other churches aren't getting

00:29:18.480 which then does does i think for some that would trigger their threshold for for persecution um

00:29:26.660 yeah and then you know on the flip side i'll just say this to kind of wrap this all up

00:29:30.300 And I said this in my sermon on Romans 13 back in February 14th, on February 14th, I just don't even care whether this meets the threshold of persecution. It just doesn't even matter to me. I'm not waiting for that to know when to obey. I'm just doing what's right, and it's righteousness, obedience to Christ that's resulting in the oppression.

00:29:50.840 Right. I agree with everything that you said.

00:29:54.280 Hebrews, I think of Hebrews chapter 12, starting verse 3,

00:29:57.760 and I'm sure that this is a text that's been on your mind plenty,

00:30:01.020 probably, I imagine, even when you were imprisoned for those five weeks.

00:30:05.240 But it says, Hebrews 12, starting verse 3, the Bible says,

00:30:08.320 Consider him being Christ, who endured from sinners such hostility against himself,

00:30:12.740 so that you may not grow weary or faint-hearted in your struggle against sin.

00:30:17.320 you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood and have you forgotten the exhortation

00:30:23.240 that addresses you as sons and then it goes on to discipline how God disciplines those he considers

00:30:27.480 his sons uh if you're not ever experiencing any discipline from the Lord that it's actually a sign

00:30:32.320 that you're an illegitimate um son and so uh Paul is basically he's well I say Paul I think if you

00:30:39.500 know the author to the Hebrews is is basically he's encouraging these people when he says

00:30:43.600 you're suffering, but not yet to the point of shedding your own blood.

00:30:48.740 And elsewhere he talks about how they've endured the plundering of their own houses

00:30:52.180 and the loss of their possessions.

00:30:55.800 And the apostle, the scripture never says,

00:30:59.380 and because you haven't shed your blood, this is not persecution.

00:31:03.480 So just to agree with your point,

00:31:05.580 the Bible doesn't say that it becomes persecution when someone dies.

00:31:10.020 you know like like if you're not bleeding it's not persecution no i think i think what you gave

00:31:15.520 is a really great definition that it's um no it's it's it's it's being oppressed it's suffering at

00:31:22.680 at and certainly there are varying degrees because i know that you would you would never say like

00:31:27.220 yeah i'm i'm suffering more than any any other christian in the world right now of course there

00:31:31.520 are people who are suffering you know more than you and then there are people like myself who

00:31:35.900 aren't suffering hardly at all. So there's a spectrum. There's a sliding scale, and Pastor

00:31:41.560 James Coates is somewhere on that scale. But for us to be, I think, so cold-hearted, and to just

00:31:48.240 say, to make it just a black or white, right? It's an all or nothing. You're either, it's as

00:31:54.180 obvious as someone putting a gun to your head and saying, will you deny Christ? And if the person

00:31:59.360 doesn't deny Christ, they blow their head off, and that's real persecution. And anything short

00:32:04.460 that's not persecution. That's just such a truncated, oversimplified definition of persecution.

00:32:10.180 So I think to anyone who's saying, Pastor James is playing the martyr, I think you would be playing

00:32:15.640 the martyr if you were pretending as though you were suffering or being persecuted to the same

00:32:22.060 extent as people who are losing their lives, but you're not. So you're just saying, no, this is

00:32:27.740 wrong. The state is overstepping its jurisdiction. God has not given them permission or authority to

00:32:36.180 do what they're currently doing. So this is wrong, and it's infringing and oppressing me for

00:32:40.860 righteousness sake, for doing what God's Word prescribes. And so therefore, it is persecution.

00:32:47.920 It's not this much persecution. It's also not that much persecution, but it is persecution.

00:32:52.840 And I'm not claiming to be persecuted more than someone else, but I am saying this is wrong.

00:32:59.020 We're going to fight it.

00:33:00.640 And as they continue to penalize us for righteousness sake, if that's not persecution, then I don't

00:33:07.060 know what biblical definition you're using.

00:33:08.720 Would you agree with that?

00:33:10.100 I would.

00:33:10.520 And you've got these guys that want to reduce it to the gospel.

00:33:14.180 Well, what happens when the government says you can only preach the gospel? 0.91

00:33:18.080 I mean, that's what Germany did.

00:33:19.380 they said you can only preach the pure gospel which begs the question in that context what is

00:33:23.860 the pure gospel but what if they say you can only preach the gospel that's it well then now they've

00:33:30.460 got to redefine their definition of what persecution is because they can't preach the whole counsel of

00:33:34.680 god and and you can see that coming obviously i mean as as the the issues around the lgbtq

00:33:41.180 community kind of infringe on the the preaching ministry of the church you could see how yeah

00:33:46.300 you can preach the gospel but you can't preach on these things over here and and so just the

00:33:51.480 whole definition this whole idea that it has to be for the gospel that we're persecuted is unbiblical

00:33:58.020 it's it's it's at least uh or it's at most an implication that's that's inaccurate being drawn

00:34:04.940 from acts five um that's that's it's just a bad definition of persecution and and i think it will

00:34:11.940 prove i think history will demonstrate how poor it is and and it betrays this you know you think

00:34:18.240 about um just historically like right now you've got governments exercising more power in the

00:34:25.660 western world than they ever have before so the state is is exercising oppression upon all people 0.63

00:34:32.900 and when you look at china you look at north korea you've got states that are in place that 0.80

00:34:38.340 are applying the same level of oppression to everyone it's not like it's it's it's singling

00:34:44.040 out a particular group just state oppression and therefore anyone who stands for the headship and

00:34:51.800 lordship of christ over the church and and and even over all things all of a sudden now that

00:34:58.680 person is resisting the state and so the state wants to crush individuals who are not who are

00:35:06.060 not complying because the state wants total power and so in the western world what governments are

00:35:12.640 finding out is just how much they can get away with and how much the people are going to be

00:35:18.420 willing to hand over their civil liberties and in canada never never let a good crisis go to waste

00:35:24.020 and use a crisis initially to get right that's what you know the civil civil governments will

00:35:30.120 in their wickedness, wicked civil governments will use a crisis to all of a sudden gain that

00:35:36.540 initial power, right? Because at the end of the day, it's basically, it's one thing pitted against

00:35:41.320 the other. It's individual freedom or liberties versus public safety, right? So individual freedoms

00:35:47.660 are precious and people die for the freedoms, at least here in the United States. I don't know all

00:35:52.380 the history of Canada, but I assume freedom never comes for free. Freedom isn't free. So somebody

00:35:56.560 pays a price in order for citizens individuals to have the liberties that they have um so to

00:36:01.580 persuade the public a society to give away such precious often blood-bought uh civil freedoms

00:36:08.340 and liberties you have to have something really enticing so what you do is you have a crisis

00:36:13.140 you blow it out of proportion right you talk it up and and you tell them hey here's your choice

00:36:18.640 freedom individual freedom or public safety and so then all of a sudden you get people and and

00:36:23.760 and you always make it temporary hey we're just asking for you to um to put your civil freedoms

00:36:29.280 on pause it's just temporary and and if you can just forfeit for a time your your your individual

00:36:36.140 liberties will ensure um public safety and then all of a sudden the crisis dissipates and the

00:36:43.680 crisis is gone uh but the liberties don't come back the state moves in right you give you give

00:36:48.460 an inch, they take a mile, they move in, and it becomes the new norm. And countries, there's a

00:36:54.480 progression to tyranny. There's a progression to a loss of freedom. And crisis is the play. That's

00:37:01.900 the way it happens. And so I think we're being played. And I think that Christians need to wake

00:37:07.320 up and say, whoa, this is a slippery slope. This is a snowball that can really get out of control 1.00

00:37:13.400 if we're not careful yeah we need to we need to be we need to responsibly and thoughtfully and

00:37:19.580 carefully give up public safety to keep our civil liberties let public safety die responsibly

00:37:29.720 thoughtfully carefully to maintain our civil liberties and and civil liberty is more precious

00:37:37.340 than than public health amen and that that's just not really well that's part of why we moved to

00:37:42.360 texas you know in texas you want to ride in the back of the truck maybe not the smartest idea you

00:37:47.860 might you might die but gosh darn it it's your right to do so so you know and you know like i

00:37:52.540 don't i don't want the government you know like when i'm taking a shower to you know some government 0.97

00:37:56.300 official reaching his hand and and turning the hot water down i think it's a little bit too hot

00:37:59.700 for you there joel's like get out of my house get out of my shower what what is going on and and i

00:38:04.120 know that's an extreme example but that's it feels like that's kind of the direction that we're

00:38:08.160 heading. But there's one other point that you made that I think is so good. So you said that

00:38:12.040 people have low ecclesiology, so that was really helpful. One of the things I said to my 0.95

00:38:18.720 congregation in California, you had a sermon that really kind of clenched it for a lot of your

00:38:23.300 people and they came back. And I preached a sermon that had a similar effect that really

00:38:29.700 persuaded a lot of our people. One of the points that I made was if a person, it's commonplace

00:38:36.120 for a person to miss, you know, five, 10, 15 Sundays in a year for lesser reasons, like our

00:38:44.940 kids' soccer game or vacation or travel or work, then surely that individual would really struggle

00:38:53.020 to see why a pastor like you wouldn't pause the church for a global pandemic. And so I think

00:39:00.380 it's what you're saying. It's exactly what you're saying. It's a collection of multiple variables.

00:39:05.780 So it's a multivariant situation. So it's seeing the crisis, the virus as more serious than it actually is. And a lot of that's due to the media and politicians who are trying to take advantage of a crisis in order to gain power.

00:39:22.440 So it's giving too much credence to the virus, too low a view of the church, right?

00:39:28.400 A lot of the churches that have closed and have still not opened back up are the same

00:39:32.040 churches that were live streaming before the pandemic ever even happened, you know?

00:39:37.000 And so it's low view of the church, high view of the virus, and then this truncated,

00:39:43.640 confused view of what constitutes persecution.

00:39:47.420 And so you said that, you know, some people, they truncate persecution, they narrow it

00:39:51.280 to it's, it's, it's only the gospel, right? It's, you can only be persecuted for preaching the

00:39:59.180 gospel. If you're preaching that homosexuality is a sin and you get locked in jail, that's not

00:40:04.120 persecution, right? I mean, that's, that, that's the logic that you were explaining. That's what

00:40:08.520 they would have to say. You know, it's only if you're preaching Christ and him crucified and

00:40:13.860 get some kind of penalty for that, then you're being persecuted. So there's a truncation with

00:40:18.040 persecution, this faulty thinking that truncates it and binds it to the gospel. But there's also,

00:40:25.460 and you were getting at this, there's also this truncation of persecution that binds it

00:40:29.620 to where Christians have to be specifically targeted. And so I just really quickly, I just

00:40:35.760 want to point out Daniel chapter six, where in Daniel chapter six, it says that, it says,

00:40:41.580 these high officials and satraps, they came by agreement to the king and said to him,

00:40:45.040 O King Darius, live forever.

00:40:46.960 All the high officials of the kingdom

00:40:48.840 and the prefects and the satraps,

00:40:50.820 the counselors and the governors

00:40:52.180 are agreed that the king should establish an ordinance

00:40:54.600 and enforce an injunction, right?

00:40:57.480 Some kind of mandate

00:40:59.040 that whoever makes petition to any God, 0.89

00:41:02.060 not just Yahweh, not just Christians, right?

00:41:04.480 But to any God or, and here's, this is crazy,

00:41:07.480 or petitions, that's just makes a request

00:41:09.740 from asked from any man. 0.58

00:41:12.020 So your atheists, your agnostics,

00:41:13.640 They're all included, everyone, any God or any man for 30 days.

00:41:18.200 Oh, and it's temporary, right?

00:41:19.360 Just 15 days to slow the spread, just 30 days of, you know, a ban on prayer to any God,

00:41:25.460 Buddhist, Hindu, or petitioning any man, the atheist, the agnostic, whoever makes petition

00:41:31.360 to any God or man for 30 days, except to you, O King, shall be cast into the den of lions. 0.67

00:41:37.500 And so I would just use that as an example.

00:41:39.800 And we know Daniel resisted that.

00:41:41.220 he continued to pray three times a day, as was his custom. So he doesn't even ramp up. I think

00:41:46.080 that's important too. He doesn't ramp up just to stick it to the man, you know, but he just

00:41:51.500 continues with his custom to pray three times a day. And he prays with the windows open. And I

00:41:56.100 think that's interesting too, because some people say like, he's sticking it to the man. He's

00:41:59.580 throwing unnecessary punches. But Daniel is in captivity. He's in Babylon. And one of the things

00:42:05.820 that Solomon actually said, a covenant that he made between God and the people when he christened

00:42:10.100 the temple, when the temple was built, that was if any man or any woman, even if they were in

00:42:15.700 captive in a distant land, would point towards this temple and pray towards the temple, that

00:42:21.480 God would hear their prayer. And so Daniel, with his windows open, even that is not trying to stick

00:42:27.100 it to the man. That belongs to the substance of his worship, not just the circumstances. It's a

00:42:31.800 part of the elements or the substance of his worship. He's following a covenant that was

00:42:37.400 in scripture. And so Daniel does his custom. He's not ramping it up just to make a name for himself

00:42:42.120 or to play the martyr or to upset the civil magistrate. He's praying three days because

00:42:46.460 that's what he always did. He's praying with his windows open because that's obeying a covenantal

00:42:50.780 requirement that Daniel knows because he knows his Old Testament. And Daniel's thrown to the

00:42:58.180 lion's den. But my whole point in saying that is this was not some kind of edict against only

00:43:06.940 Daniel, or against Daniel and Shadrach and Meshach and Abednego and all the worshipers

00:43:10.880 of Yahweh. No one could pray to any god or petition 0.94

00:43:15.060 any man. It was a universal blanket. And so the most

00:43:19.040 recent example that I could think of is the one-child policy in China.

00:43:23.420 So what are you going to say? So the Christians in China who 0.99

00:43:27.000 are doing the underground house church and getting arrested,

00:43:30.780 they're being persecuted, a lot of people would say, because that's

00:43:35.080 unique to Christians, even though that's not, because a lot of Muslims are being persecuted

00:43:39.120 in China also. But let's just say, for argument's sake, you know, underground house churches are

00:43:43.180 being persecuted for precisely their underground house church. Well, you know, these people who

00:43:48.060 have this truncated view of persecution would say, that's real persecution. Well, what would

00:43:51.960 you say, though, to Christians who have a second child and hide them, right? Because that's a 1.00

00:43:57.360 universal. That's not just to Christians. That doesn't target Christians. That's any person in

00:44:01.820 China, you can't have more than one child. And China was doing forced abortions and all these 0.99

00:44:06.320 kinds of things. And so if a Christian woman is pregnant, by that logic, you would have to say, 0.93

00:44:10.960 hey, obey the law of the land, Romans 13, submit to the civil magistrate and, you know, go and get 0.94

00:44:16.480 that forced abortion and let them know that you're pregnant with your second child, because that's

00:44:20.460 not church. That's not the gospel. That's just life and family and motherhood. And they would 0.81

00:44:26.400 say at that point in time, the difference is that that would be asking the Christian to sin,

00:44:31.120 And at which point, well, we can't do that.

00:44:32.760 But that only brings us back to where I am, where if we comply with the government, you are telling me to sin.

00:44:41.180 That's right.

00:44:42.060 Because you are telling me to hand the keys of Christ's church over to Caesar and to let Caesar dictate to the church the terms of worship.

00:44:52.100 I simply cannot do that.

00:44:54.900 I cannot and will not do that.

00:44:57.360 And so that's where those individuals have to respect my conscience, even if they disagree, even if they think my view of the gatherings narrow. It doesn't matter. They need to respect my conscience as informed by scripture.

00:45:13.440 And I think it's fair I can say this. I can put forward a fairly robust case for why it is that we ought to gather on the Lord's Day and how the health orders infringe on the gathering and the headship of Christ.

00:45:30.100 Could you actually just do that?

00:45:31.640 So I was just about to ask you, could you, so you said, okay, so, you know, they would

00:45:35.720 push back on the one-child policy and say, yeah, but that's telling you to sin.

00:45:39.220 And then your pushback, your counter to the counter would be, yeah, and me closing my

00:45:43.620 church is calling me to sin according to my conscience.

00:45:47.480 And so that brings us all the way back to it.

00:45:48.980 So we talked about the, you know, the truncated, all the false views of persecution.

00:45:53.060 And we've talked a little bit.

00:45:54.820 We haven't gotten to statistics or anything, but we, you know, we said that the virus in

00:45:58.660 general is overblown.

00:45:59.680 So they're, you know, overblowing the virus, truncating and confusing persecution, but

00:46:05.020 it really all keeps coming back to ecclesiology, right?

00:46:08.660 For you, you're saying that would be sin to close my churches.

00:46:11.500 And that's because of what you believe about the church.

00:46:14.940 And it's because of what you believe about the state, because you made a comment, you

00:46:18.600 know, handing over the keys to my church to Caesar.

00:46:22.240 And so that being said, could you just, could you explain to our listeners why closing your

00:46:27.480 church doors, even in the midst of this pandemic, would be a sin? Could you make an ecclesiastical

00:46:35.880 case for why that would be a sin according to your conscience? Yeah, so the government is

00:46:40.980 ultimately commanding us to alter what the corporate gathering is. Even their contention

00:46:46.940 that, and they would say this, that live streaming your services is not infringing on your charter

00:46:52.860 rights on your in your case constitutional rights because you are still able to exercise all of your

00:46:58.720 religious freedom you just can't be together and and that doesn't really matter because whether

00:47:04.080 you're together in person or whether you're together through live stream it's really the same 0.95

00:47:07.740 thing well no it's not the the gathering has always been an in-person reality and you cannot

00:47:14.700 function as a body of believers when you're not together you can't practice the one another's

00:47:21.100 unless you're together in the same place.

00:47:24.400 When you think about the body as a spiritual organism

00:47:27.380 that has arms and legs and feet,

00:47:31.660 when you tell people they cannot be present

00:47:34.500 for the corporate gathering,

00:47:35.520 you are telling the body

00:47:37.420 that certain parts of the body can't be present.

00:47:39.900 And that is shutting members of the body

00:47:42.480 off from the gifts that every member has

00:47:45.340 when they come together in fellowship

00:47:47.280 and build up one another.

00:47:48.860 And so I would see in the corporate gathering that you have the means of grace that are available in the Christian life, from the word to prayer, even to singing the ordinances, and that the means of grace are most fully operative on Sunday when the church gathers as one body if you can.

00:48:07.620 sometimes it's two depending on the size of your facility and and that when you gather in that

00:48:12.240 particular way you are bringing the entire body together the holy spirit is uniquely present at

00:48:18.120 that time because the spirit doesn't just indwell each individual believer but he is present among

00:48:24.180 them first corinthians 3 16 when we gather so that we become a temple collectively not just

00:48:30.560 individually and and that in the priest word you have the primary means of grace being administered

00:48:35.340 to the body the filling of the spirit being a a corporate reality not just a private reality

00:48:40.660 taking place in the corporate gathering and then that that nourishment of the word the filling of

00:48:45.640 the spirit and the body being set free now minister to each other um is just critical for

00:48:52.400 the spiritual growth and development of the body to go home and live stream is cutting you off from

00:48:59.060 all of that yes you're still hearing the preached word but you're not hearing the preached word

00:49:03.500 with the body in the presence of the body yes you're you're hearing the priest word and singing

00:49:09.340 but when the fellowship begins you're at home you're not with the body and so essentially what

00:49:14.300 we're doing is we're cutting christians off from the ordinary means of grace which i believe are

00:49:18.340 most operative in the corporate gathering and that is stifling their spiritual growth and

00:49:22.940 development because we're we're we're cutting believers off even from all of the working

00:49:28.080 members of the body yep and so by doing that christ is no longer head of his church now caesar

00:49:34.320 is because the the government has decided that it's now no longer safe to meet for the greater

00:49:40.600 public good they can decide anything is for the greater public good and impose that upon the

00:49:45.860 church and in the same logic would have to mean that christians need to comply romans 13 and so i

00:49:51.800 i it's it's a it's a headship of christ over his church reality and it gets into the lordship of

00:49:57.720 christ over the government even as we look at what is the purpose of government why did why did god

00:50:02.580 put government in place what's its role and function in a society and when the government

00:50:07.540 begins to transgress into other spheres of authority what is the responsibility of those

00:50:13.660 spheres of authority in responding to government and pointing that out yep amen i completely agree

00:50:20.000 um cutting cutting the church off from the ordinary means of grace uh you said like stifling

00:50:27.240 There's spiritual growth stagnating, this lack of spiritual nourishment.

00:50:32.880 It just made me think, and I know that you've preached on this text as well,

00:50:35.740 so I'll be interested to hear your thoughts.

00:50:37.620 But it made me think of Hebrews 10, of course, verse 25, but backing up to verse 24.

00:50:42.320 But then I want to cross-reference that with a text in Hebrews 3

00:50:45.220 that I think the two go hand in hand.

00:50:47.000 So Hebrews 10, 24 and 25, it says,

00:50:49.660 And let us consider, right, these are the one and others that you were talking about.

00:50:52.480 Because verse 25 says, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some.

00:50:57.340 But verse 24, if you back up just a little bit, it says, let us consider how to stir

00:51:01.100 up one another or exhort one another.

00:51:02.940 It's the same kind of phrase, exhort or stir one another up to love and good works, comma.

00:51:08.340 It's not even a period.

00:51:09.440 He's not even taking a breath.

00:51:11.140 The very next statement, in the same breath, not neglecting to meet together, as is the

00:51:17.660 habit of some, but encouraging one another and all the more as the day draws near.

00:51:21.980 And so basically, if you look at Hebrews 10, 24 and 25, it seems as though the apostle is saying, we need to be adamantly thinking and considering how we can exhort one another, spur one another on, stir one another up, these one another's that propel us, that bolster our faith, that feed and nourish us spiritually and supernaturally.

00:51:45.980 We need to be thinking about that all the time.

00:51:48.180 And then the very next statement, I mean, it's the same statement, but the next phrase

00:51:52.220 of the statement is not neglecting the gathering.

00:51:55.420 And so I look at that in exegeting Hebrews 10, 24, and 25, and I look at that as the

00:52:00.780 implicit point of that is that the chief context, not the only, but the chief context where

00:52:08.520 believers most naturally stir one another up to love and good works is the gathering.

00:52:15.340 So I think that's what the apostle is getting at,

00:52:17.220 is we need to be considering how we can further bolster one another's faith

00:52:21.020 by stirring each other up to love and good works,

00:52:23.860 and the very next thing out of his mouth is not neglecting to gather.

00:52:27.980 Because the gathering is, I think the implicit point is,

00:52:30.820 the gathering is the chief context in which we stir one another up.

00:52:34.280 And then if you take that and cross-reference it over to Hebrews 3,

00:52:37.920 verse 12 and 13, it says,

00:52:40.840 take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart leading you to fall

00:52:47.540 away from the living God. So he's talking about apostasy, the danger of apostasy. You and I both

00:52:53.160 know that if they, you know, 1 John chapter 2, they went out from us because they were never

00:52:57.200 one of us. And so we wouldn't say that this is somebody losing their salvation, but we would say

00:53:01.120 that there is a very real possibility that someone who claims to be a brother, who bears the name of

00:53:06.480 Christ, who professes Christ, doesn't actually possess Christ. And so there can be people who

00:53:11.640 are part of the visible church. They could be members on our roster and we need to take extra

00:53:16.320 care lest there be any of us even, even ministers who would say on that final day, Lord, Lord,

00:53:22.440 you know, that have an evil, unbelieving heart that would eventually lead us to fall away from

00:53:26.680 the living God. And so by contrast, how do we take care of what should we do? Verse 13, very next

00:53:32.120 verse, but exhort one another. It's the same phrase as stir one another up, Hebrews 10, 24.

00:53:38.240 Now it's Hebrews 3, 13. Be careful because you can have an unbelieving heart that would lead you to

00:53:43.080 apostasy, to lead you to fall away from the living God. So instead of that, verse 13, exhort one

00:53:50.100 another every day, as long as it is called today, that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness

00:53:54.980 of sin. So my point is what I would argue in that, in terms of ecclesiology, and I know you'll agree

00:54:00.880 with this pastor james is that the gathering it's kind of like a logical three-step process so

00:54:05.980 first step the gathering is the chief context for stirring one another up yes i believe that's the

00:54:11.840 lord's day gathering number two we need to be always considering how to stir one another up

00:54:17.400 because it's one of the chief defenses that the lord has given to us to guard against apostasy

00:54:22.700 yes so if you take that just logically and you think about this we basically have the physical

00:54:27.440 threat that comes by gathering of the virus but we have the spiritual threat to the soul the very

00:54:34.160 soul of man that comes by not gathering and so at the end of the day now we're not gnostics both

00:54:40.520 matter but but if we had to say what's more important the soul of a man or his body we would

00:54:45.720 have to say the soul and so really what we're trying to weigh here is how serious is the threat

00:54:50.120 of the virus to the body and how serious is the threat of not gathering and stirring one another

00:54:56.520 up to love and good works, how big, because that's one of our chief defenses, our barrier,

00:55:02.420 our shield to apostasy, how serious is the spiritual threat that comes by not gathering?

00:55:06.960 And so what I would say, I would look at that, and I told you this before we recorded, I would say

00:55:09.960 there actually are some circumstances where if, you know, if I live in a coastal town and the

00:55:14.640 mayor gives me a call and says, there's a tsunami of biblical proportions coming, and it's a Saturday

00:55:20.020 night, it's coming Sunday morning at 10 a.m., you need to cancel church and get all your people

00:55:25.260 out there because, because the death rate is going to be 100%. Then yeah, we're going to cancel church

00:55:30.760 and we're going to use that Sunday morning to get, get everybody out of dodge. But here's the deal.

00:55:36.840 In that scenario, number one, everything would be canceled. Dispensaries, weed dispensaries and

00:55:41.880 Black Lives Matter movements and everything would be canceled. But, but number two, we would be

00:55:46.480 missing one week of church. Now, granted our building would be, you know, but we could, we

00:55:49.660 the very next Sunday, Lord willing, we can meet in the field or whatever we have to do. And so

00:55:53.920 we're missing one week of church which you know over here the spiritual threat we're neglecting

00:55:58.900 the gathering there's a spiritual threat of apostasy but we're neglecting one week so the

00:56:03.880 spiritual threat is low i guess is my argument but over here tsunami the perceived physical threat to

00:56:09.960 the body is very very high so with this immense physical threat to the body and a relatively low

00:56:16.220 spiritual threat to the soul because we're only talking about missing one week it's an easy

00:56:20.120 decision but but when all of a sudden the data keeps coming in and it's not just weeks anymore

00:56:24.880 15 days to slow the spread but it's it's a year has gone by and more months are going by and

00:56:30.280 you're talking about neglecting not not just one lord's day gathering but you're talking about

00:56:34.060 neglecting 50 60 70 soon to be 100 lord the spiritual threat is growing for apostasy and

00:56:42.860 your role as a shepherd is i mean you've got to be feeling as a shepherd of god's flock

00:56:47.660 a righteous anxiety building in your in your soul like i've got to shepherd the flock of god

00:56:55.280 and the chief concept yes i can give them a phone call and yes they can live stream but the chief

00:56:59.100 context for stirring one another up and exhorting one another so that we don't have a believing

00:57:03.660 heart that leads us to fall away from the living god is the gathering and that's what hebrew says

00:57:08.440 and so the spiritual threat is growing as time keeps going on and as time is going on we keep

00:57:13.160 getting more and more data saying that the virus isn't nearly as threatening as we originally

00:57:17.000 thought it was. So the perceived physical threat to the body keeps going down. And the more Sundays

00:57:22.220 we miss, the very real, tangible, spiritual threat to the soul is going up. And it seems

00:57:29.640 pretty simple. And yet pastors and Christians all over the world don't get it. I don't understand.

00:57:36.900 Yeah, just think about this. So everything you're saying is excellent. I'm tracking with you. And

00:57:41.100 here's part of the challenge. A lot of Christians aren't in churches that are functioning the way

00:57:46.980 way they ought to function a lot of folks show up for church on sunday hear kind of a watered

00:57:53.320 down sermon sing a couple of hymns and uh and then go home you know they might get asked hey

00:57:59.580 how you doing fine you know they might get asked did you see the game last night talk about that

00:58:04.860 a little bit but there's not any real meaningful fellowship going on so so functionally sunday

00:58:12.760 morning is a spectator sport they just come they take and they leave well in a real biblical

00:58:18.200 context with a real vibrant healthy body where where you're going to be asked how are you doing

00:58:24.620 and it's not just like i'm doing fine it's like no how are you doing and i want to get involved

00:58:30.580 in your life to the point that if you're not willing to have that kind of involvement you

00:58:35.040 end up leaving because you just don't like people asking how you're doing with that level of

00:58:40.260 intentionality it's a it's a completely different body life and so when people come to grace life

00:58:45.940 church for example even from churches in our area that are complying and they see what's going on

00:58:51.460 i mean they're just like it's a breath of fresh air people come into our gathering

00:58:55.100 and and they they've they forgot what they were missing they we've got folks who come in and

00:59:00.780 they're in tears from the the first song until the closing prayer because they just forgot about how

00:59:06.060 much they needed to be with the body of christ so whether it's they've forgotten what they once

00:59:13.180 enjoyed in their church or they've never actually enjoyed real healthy vibrant fellowship that that

00:59:19.900 contributes to this entire this entire issue you're right some people you can't miss what you've never

00:59:25.460 had you can't that's what you're saying so that's a great point i didn't even think about you're

00:59:29.360 saying that maybe some of of the opposing argument is coming from professing christians and maybe they

00:59:35.060 really are Christians, but who have been a part of a church that it's maybe not as faithful in

00:59:39.880 his preaching. That's more of a spectator sport. That's not stirring one another up to love and

00:59:43.760 good works. That's not rightly administering the sacraments of the Lord's Supper and baptism. And

00:59:48.040 so for them, it's just like, James, what's the big deal? Me and my friends are getting the same

00:59:54.940 thing live stream. And you're saying if a church really, for lack of a better phrase, if a church

00:59:59.880 really sucks, then yeah, your live stream living room experience might be comparable. But that's

01:00:07.040 not the kind of church that we're talking about. Is that what you would say? Exactly. Yeah. They

01:00:12.060 can live stream because they're functionally live streaming anyway.

01:00:17.300 That's profound. Functionally live streaming already. That's good. All right. Well, I feel

01:00:24.680 like I've already taken enough of your time. And I know that your heart is not to be famous. You

01:00:28.740 want to make Christ famous, but Christ in his providence has made you in this season famous.

01:00:34.040 And for such a time as this, and by God's grace, with the spotlight being shined on you, I think

01:00:38.940 you've done a wonderful job, you, your wife, and your church, in being faithful as long as the

01:00:43.540 light is there, and even when it's not. And so that said, I know that you're getting lots of

01:00:48.580 requests for interviews, and so I don't want to take too much of your time, but this is what we

01:00:51.640 like to do on the show. We like to have our guest, kind of similar to Tom Askell and Jared Longshore

01:00:58.720 they have the armory where they keep a guy on for just a few minutes extra. And so we call it

01:01:02.940 our responders. Those are our club members. If you're not a responder and you're listening to

01:01:06.700 this and you want to become a responder, get access to all of our bonus content. We encourage

01:01:11.160 you to do so. You can do it on our website, www.rightresponseministries.com slash donate.

01:01:19.520 So James, I'd like to keep you on. And just to whet our listeners' appetite, I'm going to give

01:01:23.380 the question ahead of time before we go ahead and close out this episode. But here's my question.

01:01:29.520 And I know you're a master's grad, so you're a MacArthur boy. So here we go. John MacArthur

01:01:33.300 famously said, Christ, not Caesar, is the head of the church. And I would certainly agree with

01:01:38.560 the statement. I know you would. However, I personally would be willing to go even a little

01:01:42.660 further in saying that Christ, not Caesar, is actually also head of the state. I would have

01:01:48.780 some scriptures to back that up. Would you personally agree with this statement? I think

01:01:52.780 there's a sense in which you would. And then what sense would you disagree? That'll be our question.

01:01:56.740 We'll talk about that on our bonus hour edition, if you don't mind sticking around. But could we

01:02:01.480 just close the episode by you just telling our listeners, how can they be praying for you? How

01:02:06.300 can they keep up with you and follow you? Even if you don't want to be followed, maybe, you know,

01:02:10.400 follow you in a way that doesn't get you in trouble. What can we do to help? Well, you can

01:02:14.300 be praying that we would win some of the issues that are in the courts right now. We could use

01:02:19.020 some wins and uh and we really think there's some opportunity for some wins on the horizon so we

01:02:24.580 could you could be praying for just what's in the court system currently that would be huge

01:02:28.460 uh you can certainly be praying for our government uh and that includes their salvation um but we

01:02:34.760 really need to see our province open up um we need to get our building back and and be able to

01:02:41.120 carry on and and execute ministry you can just be praying that the truth will continually come out

01:02:47.640 that that the the real science and facts that revolve around this virus continue to come out

01:02:53.780 that our our our province and even our country would wake up and realize what's really going on

01:02:59.720 and and that this has been overblown um and and then for our church you know just that

01:03:05.580 we would have the grace and the wisdom to be able to to to persevere we're still in kind of the heat

01:03:13.200 of a window where enforcement could come basically every single Sunday, we walk into the potentiality

01:03:20.200 of an arrest. And that wouldn't just necessarily implicate me, it could implicate my entire

01:03:25.300 leadership. And so we continue to need grace and wisdom to be able to navigate the tumultuous time

01:03:33.320 that we're in. And yeah, we just pray for the health of our body, pray that if there are any

01:03:39.800 issues in the body that need to be addressed, they would be brought to the surface where

01:03:43.920 we can ensure that we're caring for those folks and meeting those needs, and that Christ

01:03:50.640 would just continue to be glorified through the work that's happening at Grace Life Church.

01:03:55.380 Amen.

01:03:56.280 Well, James, I'm so grateful for your ministry, and I'm so grateful to have found you.

01:04:00.720 In God's providence, you know, a lot of people have been able to benefit from your ministry,

01:04:05.740 and otherwise we likely would have not.

01:04:08.340 And so I know that it's been difficult, but I'm grateful for the way that the Lord has used you in this hour.

01:04:13.320 Would you mind if I actually just pray for you even now?

01:04:16.480 I would love it. Please do.

01:04:18.160 Okay. Father, thank you for Pastor James Coates.

01:04:20.900 Lord, thank you for the blessing that he's been to me and to many other pastors and Christians all over the world.

01:04:25.640 Father, we pray for favor with his court hearings and cases.

01:04:29.100 Lord, we pray for righteousness.

01:04:32.380 Lord, we pray that those who you have sovereignly appointed in positions of civil authority,

01:04:40.080 that they would legislate and that they would rule righteously, not just in favor of Pastor

01:04:45.420 James Coates because it would benefit him, but because it's the right thing.

01:04:49.400 We pray that they would do righteous.

01:04:52.120 They would do righteousness.

01:04:53.820 And so, Father, we pray that you would convict them of sin.

01:04:56.980 And Father, like Pastor James already said, we pray most of all that you would save them,

01:05:01.380 that you would reveal to them their sin

01:05:05.640 and reveal to them Christ

01:05:07.780 as the only substitute for sinners,

01:05:12.040 the only hope of salvation.

01:05:14.220 We pray that you would give them

01:05:15.240 the gift of faith and repentance

01:05:16.740 that they would turn from their sin

01:05:18.080 and turn in personal trust

01:05:20.120 to the Lord Jesus Christ

01:05:21.140 and his finished work

01:05:22.640 on the behalf of all those who trust in him.

01:05:26.020 Father, we pray that you would strengthen

01:05:27.340 Pastor James Church,

01:05:28.800 that you would give them courage.

01:05:29.920 And Lord, I just pray for an immense measure of wisdom for Pastor James and his elders.

01:05:37.820 We're grateful for texts like James that say, if any man lacks wisdom, let him ask God who

01:05:44.280 gives without finding fault, without reproach, that you don't hold our sin against us, but

01:05:50.300 you generously give wisdom to those who are humble enough to ask.

01:05:54.420 So Lord, I pray that you would bless him and his leadership team with wisdom as they navigate

01:05:58.700 unprecedented waters, at least in our lifetime. And so Lord, we pray all these things ultimately

01:06:04.880 that you might be famous, that you might get the glory, that your name would be great in all the

01:06:12.540 earth. And we ask these things in Jesus' name. Amen. Amen. Thank you, brother. Yeah. Pastor

01:06:19.380 James, thanks for coming on the show. That concludes our episode. As a special thank you

01:06:24.220 for your gift of any amount, we'll be happy to send you a free digital book from our store.

01:06:28.700 To access this offer, visit rightresponseministries.com slash offer.

01:06:33.640 We highly recommend Pastor Joel's book, Am I Truly Saved?

01:06:37.320 If you or someone you know has wrestled with doubts about the love of God,

01:06:41.100 this would be a great resource.

01:06:43.080 As a reminder, to get this offer, go to rightresponseministries.com slash offer.

01:06:47.380 And thank you for your generous support.

The NXR Podcast - June 02, 2021

THEOLOGY APPLIED - The Biblical Criteria For Genuine Persecution

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