Pastor James Coates was imprisoned for five weeks for keeping his church open on the Lord's Day during COVID-19 against the orders of a civil magistrate. In this episode, Pastor Coates talks about his experience in jail, and what constitutes persecution according to the Bible.
00:01:26.060All right. And so would you just take a moment and introduce yourselves? I think a lot of our listeners will be familiar with you and what's been going on with your church and the persecution that you've been experiencing. We're going to talk about that, but go ahead and just introduce yourself to our listeners. Let them know who you are.
00:01:40.800Yeah, my name is James Coates. I'm a graduate of the Master's Seminary twice. I graduated from TMS with an MDiv in May 2010, and then last year with a doctor of ministry.
00:01:54.960and I've been pastoring Grace Life Church now for nearly 11 years and have been in the pulpit
00:02:02.100that entire time and just faithfully preaching God's word and find myself in the midst of
00:02:08.680quite a significant battle. You know, one of the things that I thought about sharing with
00:02:12.640your folks is one of the things that is sort of levied against me is that in this season,
00:02:17.640I'm seeking attention. I'm trying to make a big name for myself. And I wanted to highlight that
00:02:22.820that's totally inconsistent with my life and and just um just how i've carried out my ministry i
00:02:29.400don't have a blog that i'm utilizing i have no social media presence no facebook no twitter
00:02:35.800i haven't sought in any way shape or form to broaden my ministry beyond the walls of grace
00:02:40.620life church and i've just been faithfully preaching the word verse by verse through books of the bible
00:02:45.380these last 11 years and so the attention that i'm getting now is is simply by virtue of the fact
00:02:51.240that I'm following my convictions and walking in obedience to Christ. And that has put me in this
00:02:57.020position. And it's not the most comfortable position to be in. I certainly wouldn't have
00:03:01.900chosen it and really believe it chose me. And my responsibility in it is to just be faithful.
00:03:08.960Yeah. Amen. So how long were you? Because you were actually arrested. You actually spent time
00:03:14.080in prison. How long were you in prison? And when did you get out? How long have you been out now?
00:03:18.760I was in prison for 35 days and it's hard to even keep track of how long I've been out. It was
00:03:24.840toward the end of March that I got out and it feels like a long time ago. It feels like I've
00:03:30.300been out for a while. And I would say that even at this point in time, just in the context of God
00:03:35.180using all things for good, there's just nothing negative lingering in my life whatsoever from
00:03:40.680that experience in jail. I've seen the Lord just continually work in my life for good and just
00:03:48.120give him praise just for how kind he's been toward me. Praise God. How are your wife and children?
00:03:53.760How many children do you have? I got two boys. One is 18 and the other is 11. And they're doing
00:04:00.280well. I mean, we just asked our oldest a moment ago, if life was normal for him. And for him,
00:04:06.560it is mostly normal that there's tension around church. And certainly my imprisonment was a
00:04:11.580difficult time for him. But for the most part, his day to day living is is is functionally normal,
00:04:17.940which is good. I mean, that's the way I'd prefer it. And I think our 11 year old would say the
00:04:22.540same thing. Now, we often talk a lot about COVID-19 and, and my government and all that
00:04:28.200we're going through. So there's no question that there are moments that are more tense in our home
00:04:32.440than they would be otherwise. But, but I think they're doing well. And my wife, I mean,
00:04:37.740she's a huge support, couldn't have asked for a better wife, a better partner. The Lord has
00:04:42.900just blessed me richly with her and she's dialed in incredibly supportive and and is there to
00:04:50.440encourage me when I'm weary and so she's doing well she's she's faithfully putting one foot in
00:04:57.440front of the next and and just been a a wonderful blessing in my life that's great so your family's
00:05:04.320doing well you're doing well you've been out for some time got out about mid-march you spent about
00:05:08.740five weeks or so in prison. Well, at the church level, so that's your main call as a minister of
00:05:15.800the gospel, a local church pastor, and it sounds like that's always what you were about, and God
00:05:20.120has just providentially used these circumstances to extend your ministry beyond your church, but
00:05:26.160I know that your church is still your priority as a local pastor. How is your church doing? Because
00:05:31.280it's one thing for your wife to be dialed in, like you said, you use that phrase, and for your
00:05:34.840children to be on board. But I know as a pastor, I was pastoring in California when COVID first hit,
00:05:41.620and I'm now in Texas. But I just know that many pastors just struggled with division among elder
00:05:50.000teams, among congregations. Just a lot of people have a lot of strong opinions on how churches
00:05:57.900should respond to the virus. And so, so with the uniqueness of your situation, I'm just curious,
00:06:05.200how have you lost people? I'm sure you've gained people, but have you lost people from the church?
00:06:10.860Are there people, has, has everybody at the church level been on board with your decision to say,
00:06:15.440hey, no, we're going to, we're going to stand up to this and we're going to continue. We're not
00:06:19.000right. We're not just throwing unnecessary punches. So we're not just being, you know,
00:06:23.040rebellious for the sake of being rebellious, but we're going to stand up in the sense that we are
00:06:26.900going to continue to do what we believe God's called us to do, regardless of whether or not
00:06:30.940the state tells us to stop. Is everyone with your church on board with that? Have you, have you
00:06:34.940struggled to shepherd people along in that decision? Our church is in a really good place.
00:06:41.880You know, I think there were people in our congregation who had an appetite for remaining
00:06:46.520open right away. And, and even in my own case, to be honest with you, it was not an easy decision to,
00:06:53.660to not meet and to comply with the governing authorities. I did that reluctantly. It was never
00:07:01.400something that I felt incredibly good about. And so we did that for a little bit. And there was
00:07:07.260already some support for opening our doors. And then I started to preach some sermons that were
00:07:12.980pretty key. I preached on Romans 13 back in, I think, June. And it was titled putting the
00:07:19.360government in its place and that was more of a straight just preaching of romans 13 1 to 7
00:07:25.200and uh and then i preached on the the paragraph in hebrews 10 where we have the the call to not
00:07:32.960forsake the gathering and and so i preached that and that kind of set the table for the decision
00:07:39.260to open so that we had quite a bit of support already at that point in time where we knew look
00:07:44.480we can be subject to the government but that doesn't mean that we're gonna comply with
00:07:49.020everything that they want us to do. And then if we are at a step with the government at some
00:07:53.500certain point, well, we're going to submit to whatever consequences they want to enforce against
00:07:58.620us as part of our subjection, but we're not going to obey them as though they hold the position of
00:08:03.540God. And so our people were ready to open up at that point in time. Now, there were some who were
00:08:10.160not of the same mind. And really, that was super helpful because they began to interact with us
00:08:17.620an email and began to poke holes and and and challenge us and our thinking to force us to
00:08:24.560tighten things up and be more robust in addressing this issue from a governmental perspective romans
00:08:30.80013 and even on an ecclesiological front and so i'm i'm so thankful for those interactions now
00:08:38.060a lot of those folks and and it's not a it's not a lot of families like if i had to count households
00:08:42.480it wouldn't shock me if we've lost less than 10 households in this entire time which is not a lot
00:08:48.320when you think about it at that point in time we would have been a church that on Sundays would
00:08:53.220have had an average of 350 pre pre-pandemic and so we haven't lost a lot of folks and and the ones
00:09:01.000that were protesting did subsequently end up leaving our church but but so thankful for the
00:09:08.780engagement we had with them and and still love those folks and still care for those folks and
00:09:14.060want them to to flourish in the lord and they're in other churches that we would consider solid
00:09:18.880but are complying and so uh so anyway that was kind of where things were at heading into the
00:09:24.360fall and and uh we didn't quite have everyone coming back yet but then i preached a sermon
00:09:30.020on december 20th that was kind of laying down the gauntlet things were heating up with the
00:09:34.960government the rcmp was coming to our services ahs was coming to our services and the rcmp
00:09:41.120it's our police force and media was outside our gathering and you know taking video and
00:09:47.900photo of our our parking lot and people going into the facility and so i preached that sermon
00:09:53.420which addressed the ecclesiology it addressed the the science and the medicine it addressed the law
00:10:01.540and as it relates to the supreme law of our land the charter of rights and freedoms and so
00:10:06.140that sermon was a catalyst for our church just coming back like anybody who was just not sure
00:10:11.980that that sermon uh brought our folks back and then you know from and then my imprisonment takes
00:10:18.460place and if there were any stragglers at that point in time i mean that clinched it for them
00:10:24.020i mean they they they went from being not sure at that point to you know all in on the stand that
00:10:30.740we were taking. And so that my imprisonment really was a blessing for our church really
00:10:36.580united us. I mean, if you could have been there on a Sunday in our, in our, in our gathering
00:10:42.040that I wasn't there for the, the, the testimony that I heard of what was happening in those
00:10:47.580gatherings is just everything you would want the corporate gathering to be. And I got to
00:10:52.580taste it once I got out and have been able to taste it since then. And so our church
00:10:58.620is doing really well. We're united. I'm not sure that we have anyone that is in a position where
00:11:05.440they're considering leaving Grace Life at this point in time. I think they know where we're at.
00:11:09.820And there's folks that haven't even come to the gathering at all because they've opted to live
00:11:13.940stream. And we're not binding their conscience on that. There's good reasons for that in some cases.
00:11:19.220And they're so supportive of the stand that we've taken. And so our church is doing really well.
00:11:25.180and and you know there is a an uncomfortable side of it for me because shepherding your people
00:11:30.940without a facility is more difficult and and and there's a lot that our energy is going into that
00:11:37.940it wouldn't be going into if if if we weren't under the gun and the pressure of our government
00:11:43.980right now so there's no question that there's some discomfort for me as far as knowing how our
00:11:50.360people are really doing but that's when you lean on the ministries that you've put in place to care
00:11:56.060for your people your bible study shepherds that they're caring for the people that are in their
00:12:00.340studies and then as we connect with them we can get a pulse on how everyone's doing and make sure
00:12:05.800that that no one's falling through the cracks as it were yeah so where are you currently meeting
00:12:10.980is it week by week like basically like every monday morning when you wish that you could just
00:12:15.540be expositing god's word exegeting preparing for your sermon you're doing administrative work and
00:12:19.960trying to figure out where are we going to meet the next sunday is that is that where you're at
00:12:22.780you know what that's classified so at this point in time we have just recently come into a season
00:12:28.960where we think that given the pressure from our government we we need to kind of go silent on
00:12:34.960what we're doing uh or not for that matter and so we are at a point now where we're trying to
00:12:41.360encourage our people to be uh tight-lipped on that and i guess that starts with me because
00:12:46.020they're going to listen to this interview and so if i'm being if i'm being public on what we're
00:12:50.380doing or not then then i'm not setting a good example right fair enough yeah that totally
00:12:55.460makes sense i didn't even think about that yeah wouldn't it wouldn't be necessarily advantageous
00:12:59.340for you to share on a public venue like this where you guys are going to meet this next sunday so
00:13:02.980well i have been just you know i have been but it's just it's just now it's just now that we're
00:13:07.800going you know what we need to be approaching this a little bit differently so yep innocent
00:13:13.440as doves and cunning and shrewd as serpents. That's good. So let's go ahead and just dive
00:13:18.720in. I told you, you know, we talked a little bit before we started recording. And one of
00:13:22.380the things that I really wanted to just hear your response, give you a chance to respond
00:13:27.540to basically, you know, there are some people professing Christians. Now, whether or not
00:13:32.700they're truly regenerate, I don't know. And I have every reason, every inclination to assume
00:13:38.260that, you know, that many of them are truly Christians, regenerate believers, followers
00:13:42.000of the Lord Jesus Christ, and yet still there seems to be a group of people that as it pertains
00:13:48.920to your situation, your arrest, and your decision to continue physically meeting with your church,
00:13:54.760there are those who would say, I don't think this is actual persecution. I don't think he's
00:13:59.700being persecuted. I think he's just experiencing the necessary consequences, the practical results
00:14:07.740of a foolish decision i wrote it down so i'm just going to read it the way that i wrote it
00:14:12.180you know these individuals insist that you and other pastors like you are merely experiencing0.93
00:14:17.420the appropriate consequences for your unnecessary rebellious actions towards the civil magistrates
00:14:23.700very reasonable guidelines for the churches for churches exclusively based on the science
00:14:31.080right so for someone who's saying that someone who professes to be a follower of jesus and they say
00:14:35.680this isn't persecution. Pastor James, you know, people are patting him on the back and encouraging
00:14:42.180him, but he's not being persecuted. He's just experiencing the appropriate consequences for
00:14:49.100making foolish decisions. These orders have been based on the science and Pastor James is putting0.97
00:14:56.460people's lives in danger. How would you respond to someone who says you're playing the murderer?
00:15:02.580you're not actually being persecuted you know there's so much there so let's see if i can't
00:15:07.720try and address all of it at the outset i think what that betrays on two levels is um
00:15:14.480a failure to understand the the conscience and the priority of the conscience and then to
00:15:22.200just a really weak grasp of what persecution is but let's deal with the conscience at the outset
00:15:28.700we have to obey our conscience. Anything not done from faith is sin, Romans 14. So we are in a
00:15:37.780culture where even in the Christian community, those who profess faith in Christ, there is just0.97
00:15:43.920no room for conscience and principle. There's no room for, I can't do that because my conscience0.85
00:15:51.320doesn't allow me to do that. As a pastor, one of my responsibilities as I shepherd God's people
00:15:58.680is to be a steward of their conscience. Christ is Lord of the conscience. And so I need to ensure
00:16:05.840that one, I'm properly informing the consciences of my people, and then two, never doing anything
00:16:12.340that would violate their conscience. So when it comes to me personally, as a shepherd of the flock,
00:16:18.640knowing that I'm going to stand before Christ and give an account for my ministry, I have to act in
00:16:23.420a manner that's consistent with my conscience based on the information i have from god's word
00:16:29.120and so christians ought to respect that the only thing a christian could do is say well
00:16:34.440no it has nothing to do with conscience and then read ill motive into it and say he's just doing
00:16:39.660this as you've said to to be a martyr or uh to make a name for himself and that's just reading
00:16:46.260my motive which we're told not to do and and furthermore you've got individuals who are
00:16:52.360chiming in on this that have no idea who i am they're not they're not privy to my ministry
00:16:56.800they've done nothing to to really hear me out and consider uh where i'm coming from even scripturally
00:17:03.600on this piece so i think fundamentally one of the issues here is conscience our government doesn't
00:17:09.740respect conscience the christian community doesn't respect conscience and conscience is critical
00:17:14.100we have to honor the conscience anything not done from faith is sin so there's that piece
00:17:46.760that's not explicitly clear in scripture
00:17:48.680we don't want to command someone to do something that would be a sin against their conscience that's
00:17:52.600what you're saying and with the conscience we recognize it can be sharpened um by by the holy
00:17:57.960spirit his conviction working in conjunction with the word of god so so the the holy spirit
00:18:02.820illuminating the word to us most ordinarily happening through the preached word that
00:18:07.440sharpens the conscience and a person's conscience can be dulled um through sin and there are some
00:18:12.460instances when a person because of a refusal to repent of sin an impenitent posture of heart
00:18:20.020their conscience can be so dulled by their sin that we actually would command them to sin against
00:18:25.560to sin against their conscience because it is something explicit in scripture like thou shalt
00:18:31.160not steal but their conscience says you know well my conscience tells me it's actually really good
00:18:35.820for me to steal and really you know and so so there there are people who are so far gone but
00:18:39.920most ordinarily with a conscience because we're made in the image of god even an unbeliever if
00:18:44.740their conscience is not so dulled by by sin um there's this general moral compass and what we
00:18:52.040want to do is we want to command the things that are commanded scripture the things that are less
00:18:55.900clear in scripture we we might have still a conviction as a shepherd as a pastor but we
00:19:00.980want to use the authority of counsel where we're using the word of god to sharpen their conscience
00:19:05.420but giving some leeway before we just outright say thou shalt do this or you must do this we're
00:19:11.960saying i really think god's word says this like children for instance i'm always encouraging my
00:19:16.680congregation uh children are a blessing and you're blessed if you have a lot of them what i'm not
00:19:21.320doing is saying thou shalt have five children or more right but i am constantly pushing this
00:19:27.780this general message of the goodness of children and you know what i mean and so anyway so my point
00:19:33.780is to say, now, as it pertains to the choice of an elder team, shepherds, should we meet or should
00:19:38.840we not? Part of what I wrestled through with my elders, because we had a couple elders who we
00:19:43.700shouldn't meet, and we had a couple who we know were saying we should meet. Well, part of the
00:19:47.460reason we ended up meeting was, and this was one of the arguments that I used, was that it allowed
00:19:51.680for both sets of people in our congregation to obey their conscience. If we shut down the church
00:19:59.160and don't meet, even if that's my conscience as a shepherd, as a pastor, right? So I'm following
00:20:04.700my conscience, but it's very likely, it stands to reason that there may be members in my congregation
00:20:10.180who are very convinced in their conscience from their reading of the word of God that the church
00:20:15.000should meet. And so if I say the church isn't meeting, then basically I am binding every
00:20:20.040conscience in my congregation to forsake the gathering by force on the Lord's day. Whereas
00:20:28.480if i say we're going to meet and i say and all of you better be there you're under church discipline
00:20:33.020now i'm binding the conscience the other way but there's a middle approach which it sounds like
00:20:37.420that's what you're taking i think that's so wise and it's a proper understanding of the significant
00:20:41.320of the conscience and counseling rather than commanding with things that are less clear and
00:20:45.840saying look part of the reason we're gathering isn't because we think that that um that there's
00:20:51.160no possible way a person could come to a conviction from the scripture not to gather but we're saying
00:20:56.980there's certainly a possible way and we as elders have have come to this conviction that we should
00:21:02.380gather and so we are by this choice we are accommodating both consciences um so we're saying
00:21:08.400that we're giving a special grace to those of you who aren't going to gather at this time whereas
00:21:12.400ordinarily we would follow up as your shepherds if you missed months of church and have some serious
00:21:17.560conversations but we're giving a special grace during the season to those who choose not to
00:21:22.340gather, but we're still, we are gathering and administering the ordinary means of grace for
00:21:27.320those who have, in their conscience, are bound to gather. And so I think that's so good, and I'm so
00:21:33.620glad to hear that you're doing that, and I'm sometimes grieved when other pastors don't see,
00:21:39.000I think they just see it as two approaches, either no gathering or gathering, and I wish
00:21:44.180more would see this third approach, that the choice to gather doesn't mean, that doesn't
00:21:50.040mean by default that we're choosing to gather and we're and we're saying everyone has to be here
00:21:55.640right there's no like a choice of an elders to gather doesn't mean that you and I think some of
00:22:01.560our listeners would be surprised to hear that because they'd see man this guy you know was
00:22:04.920imprisoned and his face is on the news and all this kind of stuff and they and they would you
00:22:09.240know they would write you up they would make you out James to be like this hardcore zealot and I
00:22:13.920think some of our listeners would be would be pleasantly surprised to hear yeah James is making
00:22:18.020this stand and many other people are with him. And he has members in his church who currently
00:22:23.160aren't attending and they're extending to them grace. So I just think that's, I think that's
00:22:28.420impressive. Are there any other thoughts on the matter of the conscience that you want to add
00:22:32.000before you go? Because you have some other reasons you wanted to mention. Well, just that, you know,
00:22:36.040in our case, our conscience is informed by our ecclesiology. And so from there, you can get into
00:22:42.940the issue of having a robust ecclesiology and what we what we see in our our day is that the
00:22:50.120the doctrines of the church that shape the way christians think about the corporate gathering
00:22:56.280for example which is just an aspect of ecclesiology is is revealing that people think
00:23:02.160very very lowly of the church that there is not a high view of the church among many and so that's
00:23:09.580another reason why they're going how in the world can't they just comply with this i mean
00:23:15.500how is it that that they can't just do what the government's asking them to do and and and they
00:23:21.500they aren't even allowing for the room room for the conscience but they're also part of that is
00:23:26.300a failure to even think robustly through this issue ecclesiologically and and so because their
00:23:33.520ecclesiology is so low there's not even a tension i mean this isn't even a struggle for them i mean
00:23:39.260they could do live stream zoom church you know until the lord returns and and they love it i
00:23:45.740mean church at home in your pjs i mean this is phenomenal and and that's just born out of a
00:23:51.780really poor understanding of what the corporate gathering is how critical it is for our spiritual
00:23:57.940growth and development how not gathering is is doing a harm to the holiness of the church
00:24:04.180and so you know to your point we're opening our doors because we believe that's what the lord
00:24:10.340would have us do then it's on the people to decide a are they convinced they should be gathering
00:24:17.300b how are they going to wrestle with romans 13 and the whole thing and then c are they willing
00:24:22.800to assume the risk of gathering because we're not saying that there's no risk with respect to the
00:24:27.300virus we think the risk is certainly overblown in the mainstream media and by governments but
00:24:34.060but there is a risk and and it's on every person to assume that level of risk every time you get
00:24:40.480into a car you're assuming a risk a level of risk that you you weigh the opportunity cost
00:24:47.400of driving against the risk and you opt to drive and it's the same thing with the corporate
00:24:52.300gathering and so um you know and it's amazing because at that point in time you get into a
00:24:57.620whole other issue because then the argument is well if you you assume that risk and and then
00:25:04.600contract the virus now you're becoming a vector to the rest of the community and so your freedom
00:25:10.580to to assume risk and go to the gathering and be infected with the virus is now exposing your
00:25:16.740neighbor and and we just have to understand that all of us have god-given rights that that we have
00:25:23.640rights that we're we're free to exercise up until the point that our rights begin to infringe on
00:25:28.700others and if somebody wants to lock themselves in their basement and not come out until the
00:25:33.320quote-unquote pandemic's over that's their business but just because that's what they
00:25:37.420want to do doesn't mean everybody else needs to do that and then that gets into a whole issue of
00:25:42.760you know basically what's happened at present is that the government has turned what were once
00:25:46.960god-given rights into privileges and so now as long as they have the justification to remove
00:25:52.740our god-given rights they can which means now they're not god-given and they're not to be
00:25:57.680protected they're just privileges that we get to exercise when the government tells us we can
00:26:02.240and so i mean that's getting off into a whole other issue i guess but um but it's it's just
00:26:08.180it's all connected i mean all of this thing is interconnected and so you go from one thing to
00:26:13.020the next but beyond that right you got persecution and and people just aren't thinking uh robustly
00:26:20.600about persecution um you know persecution according to scripture is not merely for the
00:26:26.800gospel it includes that but jesus says if you're persecuted for righteousness sake
00:26:32.620righteousness so then the question is is gathering on the lord's day to worship
00:26:38.140and administer the ordinances and practice the one another's is that unrighteousness and then
00:26:45.400if you say it is then now your your definition of good and evil is changing with the whims of
00:26:51.640the culture or based on the circumstances you're in so now it's no longer a matter of exegesis
00:26:57.160now it's it's a matter of pragmatism and you get to decide when you're not going to obey the lord
00:27:03.940based on whether or not it's convenient or expedient or whether the culture says it's
00:27:08.020appropriate to do that or the government allows you to do that so so i think you know the question
00:27:14.220has to be asked is it righteous to gather and then if you gather and you're you're you experience
00:27:21.640oppression for that well that's the definition of persecution if it's righteousness to gather
00:27:27.940and then you experience oppression and enforcement and you suffer to gather then you have just met
00:27:36.420the definition of persecution and so there's a lot of christians out there that want to go
00:27:40.340well, this isn't persecution. And so they're going to basically approach it like this, that
00:27:46.280unless it's persecution, we shouldn't really be defying the government. And so we're going to
00:27:52.480basically kind of watch this whole thing play out. And when it reaches the threshold of being
00:27:57.460persecution, then all of a sudden we're going to start obeying the Lord. And now all of a sudden
00:28:02.540pastors are going to open their doors and their flocks are just going to return. And there's going
00:28:07.880to be no fear and they're not going to be concerned about the virus and they're going to be ready
00:28:12.560they're going to be ready to stand against the enforcement arm of the government it's utter
00:28:17.620foolishness and and so not only is it a bad definition of persecution but you have to be
00:28:23.920i mean almost omniscient to know when the threshold of persecution is met according to0.97
00:28:30.520your definition as if you're going to be able to spot that and then you assume that you're going
00:28:34.640to have the fortitude at that point in time to open your doors and your people are going to come
00:28:38.740back it's not going to happen so right i mean this just opens up massive issues on this issue
00:28:45.320of persecution you've actually addressed this really well and so i've i've been very thankful
00:28:49.660what you've addressed on this matter i think it's been a helpful contribution to this discussion
00:28:56.400but but you know persecution fundamentally is experiencing oppression for your beliefs and so
00:29:02.120if you believe it's righteous to gather in the lord's day and you are experiencing oppression
00:29:06.300as we are we absolutely are and in some cases our local church is being singled out by governing
00:29:14.200authorities so that we're actually getting treatment that other churches aren't getting
00:29:18.480which then does does i think for some that would trigger their threshold for for persecution um
00:29:26.660yeah and then you know on the flip side i'll just say this to kind of wrap this all up
00:29:30.300And I said this in my sermon on Romans 13 back in February 14th, on February 14th, I just don't even care whether this meets the threshold of persecution. It just doesn't even matter to me. I'm not waiting for that to know when to obey. I'm just doing what's right, and it's righteousness, obedience to Christ that's resulting in the oppression.
00:29:50.840Right. I agree with everything that you said.
00:29:54.280Hebrews, I think of Hebrews chapter 12, starting verse 3,
00:29:57.760and I'm sure that this is a text that's been on your mind plenty,
00:30:01.020probably, I imagine, even when you were imprisoned for those five weeks.
00:30:05.240But it says, Hebrews 12, starting verse 3, the Bible says,
00:30:08.320Consider him being Christ, who endured from sinners such hostility against himself,
00:30:12.740so that you may not grow weary or faint-hearted in your struggle against sin.
00:30:17.320you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood and have you forgotten the exhortation
00:30:23.240that addresses you as sons and then it goes on to discipline how God disciplines those he considers
00:30:27.480his sons uh if you're not ever experiencing any discipline from the Lord that it's actually a sign
00:30:32.320that you're an illegitimate um son and so uh Paul is basically he's well I say Paul I think if you
00:30:39.500know the author to the Hebrews is is basically he's encouraging these people when he says
00:30:43.600you're suffering, but not yet to the point of shedding your own blood.
00:30:48.740And elsewhere he talks about how they've endured the plundering of their own houses
00:33:19.380they said you can only preach the pure gospel which begs the question in that context what is
00:33:23.860the pure gospel but what if they say you can only preach the gospel that's it well then now they've
00:33:30.460got to redefine their definition of what persecution is because they can't preach the whole counsel of
00:33:34.680god and and you can see that coming obviously i mean as as the the issues around the lgbtq
00:33:41.180community kind of infringe on the the preaching ministry of the church you could see how yeah
00:33:46.300you can preach the gospel but you can't preach on these things over here and and so just the
00:33:51.480whole definition this whole idea that it has to be for the gospel that we're persecuted is unbiblical
00:33:58.020it's it's it's at least uh or it's at most an implication that's that's inaccurate being drawn
00:34:04.940from acts five um that's that's it's just a bad definition of persecution and and i think it will
00:34:11.940prove i think history will demonstrate how poor it is and and it betrays this you know you think
00:34:18.240about um just historically like right now you've got governments exercising more power in the
00:34:25.660western world than they ever have before so the state is is exercising oppression upon all people0.63
00:34:32.900and when you look at china you look at north korea you've got states that are in place that0.80
00:34:38.340are applying the same level of oppression to everyone it's not like it's it's it's singling
00:34:44.040out a particular group just state oppression and therefore anyone who stands for the headship and
00:34:51.800lordship of christ over the church and and and even over all things all of a sudden now that
00:34:58.680person is resisting the state and so the state wants to crush individuals who are not who are
00:35:06.060not complying because the state wants total power and so in the western world what governments are
00:35:12.640finding out is just how much they can get away with and how much the people are going to be
00:35:18.420willing to hand over their civil liberties and in canada never never let a good crisis go to waste
00:35:24.020and use a crisis initially to get right that's what you know the civil civil governments will
00:35:30.120in their wickedness, wicked civil governments will use a crisis to all of a sudden gain that
00:35:36.540initial power, right? Because at the end of the day, it's basically, it's one thing pitted against
00:35:41.320the other. It's individual freedom or liberties versus public safety, right? So individual freedoms
00:35:47.660are precious and people die for the freedoms, at least here in the United States. I don't know all
00:35:52.380the history of Canada, but I assume freedom never comes for free. Freedom isn't free. So somebody
00:35:56.560pays a price in order for citizens individuals to have the liberties that they have um so to
00:36:01.580persuade the public a society to give away such precious often blood-bought uh civil freedoms
00:36:08.340and liberties you have to have something really enticing so what you do is you have a crisis
00:36:13.140you blow it out of proportion right you talk it up and and you tell them hey here's your choice
00:36:18.640freedom individual freedom or public safety and so then all of a sudden you get people and and
00:36:23.760and you always make it temporary hey we're just asking for you to um to put your civil freedoms
00:36:29.280on pause it's just temporary and and if you can just forfeit for a time your your your individual
00:36:36.140liberties will ensure um public safety and then all of a sudden the crisis dissipates and the
00:36:43.680crisis is gone uh but the liberties don't come back the state moves in right you give you give
00:36:48.460an inch, they take a mile, they move in, and it becomes the new norm. And countries, there's a
00:36:54.480progression to tyranny. There's a progression to a loss of freedom. And crisis is the play. That's
00:37:01.900the way it happens. And so I think we're being played. And I think that Christians need to wake
00:37:07.320up and say, whoa, this is a slippery slope. This is a snowball that can really get out of control1.00
00:37:13.400if we're not careful yeah we need to we need to be we need to responsibly and thoughtfully and
00:37:19.580carefully give up public safety to keep our civil liberties let public safety die responsibly
00:37:29.720thoughtfully carefully to maintain our civil liberties and and civil liberty is more precious
00:37:37.340than than public health amen and that that's just not really well that's part of why we moved to
00:37:42.360texas you know in texas you want to ride in the back of the truck maybe not the smartest idea you
00:37:47.860might you might die but gosh darn it it's your right to do so so you know and you know like i
00:37:52.540don't i don't want the government you know like when i'm taking a shower to you know some government0.97
00:37:56.300official reaching his hand and and turning the hot water down i think it's a little bit too hot
00:37:59.700for you there joel's like get out of my house get out of my shower what what is going on and and i
00:38:04.120know that's an extreme example but that's it feels like that's kind of the direction that we're
00:38:08.160heading. But there's one other point that you made that I think is so good. So you said that
00:38:12.040people have low ecclesiology, so that was really helpful. One of the things I said to my0.95
00:38:18.720congregation in California, you had a sermon that really kind of clenched it for a lot of your
00:38:23.300people and they came back. And I preached a sermon that had a similar effect that really
00:38:29.700persuaded a lot of our people. One of the points that I made was if a person, it's commonplace
00:38:36.120for a person to miss, you know, five, 10, 15 Sundays in a year for lesser reasons, like our
00:38:44.940kids' soccer game or vacation or travel or work, then surely that individual would really struggle
00:38:53.020to see why a pastor like you wouldn't pause the church for a global pandemic. And so I think
00:39:00.380it's what you're saying. It's exactly what you're saying. It's a collection of multiple variables.
00:39:05.780So it's a multivariant situation. So it's seeing the crisis, the virus as more serious than it actually is. And a lot of that's due to the media and politicians who are trying to take advantage of a crisis in order to gain power.
00:39:22.440So it's giving too much credence to the virus, too low a view of the church, right?
00:39:28.400A lot of the churches that have closed and have still not opened back up are the same
00:39:32.040churches that were live streaming before the pandemic ever even happened, you know?
00:39:37.000And so it's low view of the church, high view of the virus, and then this truncated,
00:39:43.640confused view of what constitutes persecution.
00:39:47.420And so you said that, you know, some people, they truncate persecution, they narrow it
00:39:51.280to it's, it's, it's only the gospel, right? It's, you can only be persecuted for preaching the
00:39:59.180gospel. If you're preaching that homosexuality is a sin and you get locked in jail, that's not
00:40:04.120persecution, right? I mean, that's, that, that's the logic that you were explaining. That's what
00:40:08.520they would have to say. You know, it's only if you're preaching Christ and him crucified and
00:40:13.860get some kind of penalty for that, then you're being persecuted. So there's a truncation with
00:40:18.040persecution, this faulty thinking that truncates it and binds it to the gospel. But there's also,
00:40:25.460and you were getting at this, there's also this truncation of persecution that binds it
00:40:29.620to where Christians have to be specifically targeted. And so I just really quickly, I just
00:40:35.760want to point out Daniel chapter six, where in Daniel chapter six, it says that, it says,
00:40:41.580these high officials and satraps, they came by agreement to the king and said to him,
00:44:42.060Because you are telling me to hand the keys of Christ's church over to Caesar and to let Caesar dictate to the church the terms of worship.
00:44:57.360And so that's where those individuals have to respect my conscience, even if they disagree, even if they think my view of the gatherings narrow. It doesn't matter. They need to respect my conscience as informed by scripture.
00:45:13.440And I think it's fair I can say this. I can put forward a fairly robust case for why it is that we ought to gather on the Lord's Day and how the health orders infringe on the gathering and the headship of Christ.
00:47:48.860And so I would see in the corporate gathering that you have the means of grace that are available in the Christian life, from the word to prayer, even to singing the ordinances, and that the means of grace are most fully operative on Sunday when the church gathers as one body if you can.
00:48:07.620sometimes it's two depending on the size of your facility and and that when you gather in that
00:48:12.240particular way you are bringing the entire body together the holy spirit is uniquely present at
00:48:18.120that time because the spirit doesn't just indwell each individual believer but he is present among
00:48:24.180them first corinthians 3 16 when we gather so that we become a temple collectively not just
00:48:30.560individually and and that in the priest word you have the primary means of grace being administered
00:48:35.340to the body the filling of the spirit being a a corporate reality not just a private reality
00:48:40.660taking place in the corporate gathering and then that that nourishment of the word the filling of
00:48:45.640the spirit and the body being set free now minister to each other um is just critical for
00:48:52.400the spiritual growth and development of the body to go home and live stream is cutting you off from
00:48:59.060all of that yes you're still hearing the preached word but you're not hearing the preached word
00:49:03.500with the body in the presence of the body yes you're you're hearing the priest word and singing
00:49:09.340but when the fellowship begins you're at home you're not with the body and so essentially what
00:49:14.300we're doing is we're cutting christians off from the ordinary means of grace which i believe are
00:49:18.340most operative in the corporate gathering and that is stifling their spiritual growth and
00:49:22.940development because we're we're we're cutting believers off even from all of the working
00:49:28.080members of the body yep and so by doing that christ is no longer head of his church now caesar
00:49:34.320is because the the government has decided that it's now no longer safe to meet for the greater
00:49:40.600public good they can decide anything is for the greater public good and impose that upon the
00:49:45.860church and in the same logic would have to mean that christians need to comply romans 13 and so i
00:49:51.800i it's it's a it's a headship of christ over his church reality and it gets into the lordship of
00:49:57.720christ over the government even as we look at what is the purpose of government why did why did god
00:50:02.580put government in place what's its role and function in a society and when the government
00:50:07.540begins to transgress into other spheres of authority what is the responsibility of those
00:50:13.660spheres of authority in responding to government and pointing that out yep amen i completely agree
00:50:20.000um cutting cutting the church off from the ordinary means of grace uh you said like stifling
00:50:27.240There's spiritual growth stagnating, this lack of spiritual nourishment.
00:50:32.880It just made me think, and I know that you've preached on this text as well,
00:50:35.740so I'll be interested to hear your thoughts.
00:50:37.620But it made me think of Hebrews 10, of course, verse 25, but backing up to verse 24.
00:50:42.320But then I want to cross-reference that with a text in Hebrews 3
00:51:11.140The very next statement, in the same breath, not neglecting to meet together, as is the
00:51:17.660habit of some, but encouraging one another and all the more as the day draws near.
00:51:21.980And so basically, if you look at Hebrews 10, 24 and 25, it seems as though the apostle is saying, we need to be adamantly thinking and considering how we can exhort one another, spur one another on, stir one another up, these one another's that propel us, that bolster our faith, that feed and nourish us spiritually and supernaturally.
00:51:45.980We need to be thinking about that all the time.
00:51:48.180And then the very next statement, I mean, it's the same statement, but the next phrase
00:51:52.220of the statement is not neglecting the gathering.
00:51:55.420And so I look at that in exegeting Hebrews 10, 24, and 25, and I look at that as the
00:52:00.780implicit point of that is that the chief context, not the only, but the chief context where
00:52:08.520believers most naturally stir one another up to love and good works is the gathering.
00:52:15.340So I think that's what the apostle is getting at,
00:52:17.220is we need to be considering how we can further bolster one another's faith
00:52:21.020by stirring each other up to love and good works,
00:52:23.860and the very next thing out of his mouth is not neglecting to gather.
00:52:27.980Because the gathering is, I think the implicit point is,
00:52:30.820the gathering is the chief context in which we stir one another up.
00:52:34.280And then if you take that and cross-reference it over to Hebrews 3,