The NXR Podcast - THEOLOGY APPLIED - The Christian Nationalism Debate And The Need For Unity w Voddie Baucham

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00:00:40 Hi, welcome back to another episode of Theology Applied. I am your host, Pastor Joel Webin with

00:00:45 Right Response Ministries. And in this particular episode, I'm very privileged to welcome onto the

00:00:50 show for the first time someone that, even though it's our first time discussing these things

00:00:56 together, I have from a distance, as many of you listening have, been immensely blessed by his

00:01:01 public preaching and writing and ministry. So, without further ado, let's welcome our guest,

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00:03:34 This is Theology Applied.

00:03:41 Welcome back to another episode of Theology Applied. I am your host, Pastor Joel Webin with

00:03:45 Right Response Ministries. And in this particular episode, I'm very privileged to have, for the

00:03:50 first time, Vodhi Bauckham. Vodhi, welcome to the show. Thank you very much. It's good to be with

00:03:55 would you just take a moment uh probably most of our listeners are very aware of your ministry and

00:04:01 who you are but would you just take a moment and introduce yourself and what you've been doing and

00:04:05 what you're currently doing for the kingdom of god wow yeah i um have been a pastor church planter

00:04:14 for a while and eight years ago in fact it would be eight years in august um the lord called us

00:04:22 away from the church that we had planted. We planted the church planting church in the

00:04:28 greater Houston area in North Houston in Spring. And God calls us away from there to come to

00:04:33 Lusaka, Zambia, to help start the African Christian University here in Lusaka, partnering

00:04:40 with the Reformed Baptist Churches of Zambia. And so for the last, again, almost eight years,

00:04:45 that's where we've been

00:04:47 that's what I've been about

00:04:49 I'm back in the U.S. three or four times a year

00:04:52 to do short preaching tours

00:04:54 but

00:04:56 we're here

00:04:58 we've been here

00:04:59 we've decided to come for three to five years

00:05:02 it's now

00:05:04 three plus five

00:05:05 so I don't know what that means

00:05:08 but we're here until the Lord says otherwise

00:05:10 Praise God

00:05:12 yeah I have been

00:05:14 blessed from a distance watching your ministry reading some of the books that you've written

00:05:18 and you know i recently said in one of my podcasts and maybe even one of my sermons

00:05:22 i am post-millennial in my eschatology um but uh that doesn't mean that uh god exalts nations and

00:05:30 he decimates them when they're faithless to him and so uh within my eschatology you know it could

00:05:35 be 5 000 50 000 years before jesus returns i we don't know it could be five years but uh there's

00:05:41 no promise that america will endure so i've been encouraging christians to fight for our nation but

00:05:46 also save up for their grandkids uh zambia fund yeah go ahead and move over there with you in

00:05:52 case america becomes unlivable so yeah yeah no it's interesting i always all right i always tell

00:05:58 people you know i'm i'm millennial in my eschatology but i tell people you know i live

00:06:04 post mill wherever I am. Um, so, uh, you know, I, I, I get you, you know, I'm, I call myself

00:06:10 optimistic all mill, you know? Right. Amen. Yeah. A lot of my friends are optimistic all mill and

00:06:16 they're, and they're trying to live faithfully, uh, like, you know, in their daily lives, like

00:06:21 a post mill. And the thing that surprised me, surprises me is that actually, um, some of the

00:06:25 guys who are like the most ferocious fighters, um, not saying it's just a cultural war, but it's

00:06:30 both it is a spiritual war but here's what i always tell people it's a spiritual war but between who

00:06:35 right i mean god satan um but here's the thing god cares about the world not just the 17th dimension

00:06:42 in the ethereal plane like he cares about the world satan cares about the world democrats care

00:06:47 about the world it seems as though the only entity i'm aware of that doesn't care about the physical

00:06:51 tangible world is evangelicals that said um i think some dispy pre-meal kind of guys uh even

00:06:59 though I would disagree with their eschatology, some of those guys are the most faithful fighters

00:07:03 in the culture war, not at the expense of recognizing it is first and foremost a spiritual

00:07:09 war, but spiritual wars have cultural implications. They have tangible implications. And so to say,

00:07:16 we're going to try to hit it at the head, go to the root. But it's both and, it's not either or.

00:07:23 Do you have any thoughts on that? No, I mean, I agree wholeheartedly. And, you know, living in

00:07:28 Xavier for the last seven, almost eight years has really just sort of reinforced that for me.

00:07:35 You know, coming here and living here has helped me to really see and appreciate the fruit that

00:07:43 the gospel has borne in the United States. And it is an incredible blessing to live in and to have

00:07:53 been born in and raised in and inculcated in a society that has so much residue from

00:08:03 its Christian heritage that we really take for granted. 0.98

00:08:08 Right.

00:08:09 Yeah, from the Christian heritage.

00:08:11 I heard you with Tom Askell recently saying that the Zambians, the Christians in our nation,

00:08:18 we envy their preamble, a distinctly Christian preamble.

00:08:22 um but that they actually envy our heritage and that the heritage the preamble matters right why

00:08:28 why not both let's have both if we if we can't let's work towards both but uh but that the

00:08:32 heritage um has stronger implications in in the here and now could you could you flesh that out

00:08:38 a little bit what do you see is the heritage of america yeah it just i've often said that

00:08:47 If you want to know everything that you need to know about a culture, just experience a four-way stop.

00:08:56 And you'll see what's really ingrained in the culture, whether people are stopping, waiting their turn, being courteous, or whether the only law is the law of physics and whether or not I can get my bumper in front of yours.

00:09:13 And, you know, it's interesting, you know, in the United States, you can be on the road, middle of the night and, you know, at a red light, you stop that that's that's part of our heritage, you know, and living in parts of the world where, you know, that that's just not that's just not the thing.

00:09:36 And again, that's just a small example. There are many, many more, but that's just one really sort of tangible example. Another one is, you know, I live in a city, I live in the capital city here in Osaka, and most people walk here in Osaka, but there are almost no sidewalks.

00:09:55 um in in the u.s very few people are walking where they're going but we have sidewalks everywhere

00:10:04 and that's part of our heritage right that that's that's part of our heritage in terms of

00:10:10 not just infrastructure either but in terms of value of life protection of life um you know

00:10:18 There are little things like that all over the place that just remind me of that long-rooted heritage and culture.

00:10:30 Amen.

00:10:30 Yeah, I think part of the problem, this is one of my suspicions, but I think part of the problem is as America drifted the American church in terms of its doctrine and false gospels like the prosperity gospel, sometimes there's an overreaction.

00:10:44 And I think at some level in our defense in shoring up the true gospel of Jesus Christ

00:10:50 against particularly the false gospel of prosperity, we almost threw out the baby with the bath

00:10:57 water in regards to a simple biblical principle, in my assessment, which is that obedience

00:11:01 brings blessing.

00:11:03 And not just blessing, it guarantees blessing in the life to come.

00:11:07 Yeah. But ordinarily, and I'll give that qualifier ordinarily, ordinarily obedience brings blessing in this life as well. And that's that's not the prosperity. What I always tell people is the prosperity gospel is the equivalent of me teaching my children that when they turn 18 every single Friday, they should stop at the same liquor store and buy a lottery ticket and play the same numbers. And if they do it faithfully long enough, eventually they'll be rich. Right. It's the prosperity gospel is the power of positivity. It's manifesting.

00:11:35 it's about faith in our faith, it's hopeful, it's wishing. That's very different than the basic

00:11:41 biblical principle of hard work, ordinarily, is fruitful. Now, there are some contexts that break

00:11:48 the mold. There's always exceptions. There's some faithful Christians in North Korea that aren't

00:11:52 seeing a lot of fruit. But that's why I say ordinarily. But in a country like America, 1.00

00:11:58 the Christian can expect that obedience would produce a certain measure of a blessing,

00:12:05 not just in the life to come, but even in this life as well.

00:12:08 And so we look at whether it's the four-way stop and we're courteous, you know, and waiting

00:12:12 our turn with the right of way, or whether it's, you know, the sidewalks and the things

00:12:16 that you've mentioned, seeing these as tangible physical blessings in this world, in this

00:12:21 life, but they're directly correlated to obedience to the Word of God, where the Word

00:12:26 of God is received and honored and esteemed and obeyed, not just by individuals, but in

00:12:34 societies at large, we should expect there to be tangible blessings. But I think we've just

00:12:39 become so spiritual. Everything's spiritual. We'll reject the prosperity gospel, and we kind of

00:12:45 threw out in rejecting the prosperity gospel, throwing out the baby with the bathwater with

00:12:51 that very biblical principle, obedience brings blessing. God is sovereign over the ends as well

00:12:56 the means, right? And so with my children, God is sovereign over the salvation of my children,

00:13:04 but the sovereign God has also given me means. He's given me very clear instructions about

00:13:10 bringing up my children in the discipline and instruction of the Lord, about me washing them 0.75

00:13:18 and my wife with the water of the word, again, the ends and the means. The other thing is that

00:13:25 you say, you know, that obedience should bring blessing. But the fact of the matter is that

00:13:30 obedience has brought blessing. If you look at a globe and you ask yourself, where are the freest,

00:13:38 most prosperous, right? You know, safest people in the world, where are women most protected?

00:13:47 Where are women safest? Where do they have most protection and most rights in the world? 1.00

00:13:53 The answer is follow the Protestant Reformation, right? 0.74

00:13:58 Where are the lowest corruption rates in the world? 0.57

00:14:01 Everybody's got some corruption, right?

00:14:02 But where are the lowest corruption rates? 0.98

00:14:03 The answer is follow the Protestant Reformation. 0.58

00:14:06 Even in Europe, Northern Europe versus Southern Europe, there's a huge difference.

00:14:12 Protestant Reformation.

00:14:13 Western Europe versus Eastern Europe.

00:14:15 Protestant Reformation.

00:14:17 And so, yeah, there not only should be, but there is blessing.

00:14:22 And I think it's not only ironic, but sad that we refuse to acknowledge that. And in fact, if you think about it, the people who are, you know, complaining the most, for example, you know, where are women protesting the most about, you know, not having rights and not having protections in those parts of the world where they have it more than anybody else?

00:14:46 You know, I live in a part of the world where not too far from here, female genital mutilation is the norm, right? And child brides and selling brides, you know, that's a real thing, not too far from where I am. So, you know, again, I think you're right. I would just add that caveat, not only should it bring blessing, but it has.

00:15:11 well that's great i love your caveat because i was trying to go real reasonable play the good

00:15:16 cop i'll let you do the bad because i was trying to be real reasonable say you know it could

00:15:21 obedience might can we at least consider it might bring blessing and i love that you said no no no

00:15:26 no it does bring blessing because i i agree so i i see in many ways it feels like um you and i would

00:15:33 both agree neutrality is a myth um the myth of neutrality uh that that all laws are moral um

00:15:39 that that and i'm not saying you're necessarily comfortable with this word but i would i'll just

00:15:43 speak for myself i would see that uh for every individual for every family for every um for

00:15:48 every nation that is in the civil realm every government that that it is theocratic uh which

00:15:53 for the record that scares people a theocracy is very distinct from an ecclesiocracy i'm i've never

00:16:00 advocated for a church-run state i'm not advocating for a protestant pope um but i do think that that

00:16:06 the reality is that theocracy, not ecclesiocracy, separation of church and state, but no separation

00:16:12 of Christ and state. Caesar is under God. Caesar is a servant. He's a deacon. He is not head of

00:16:19 himself. So every single entity, both the family, the church, and the state, it's not excluded from

00:16:26 this principle, there is a God above them. And it's not whether but which. It is a theocracy.

00:16:31 It's either a theocracy that ultimately is underneath in submission to the triune God

00:16:37 as God, or it's Demos, the people, or the state, it's statism, totalitarianism, all

00:16:42 these different things, or it's pagan, some pagan God.

00:16:45 And so with all that being said, it seems like we've switched gods in the West.

00:16:50 And you could argue at the time, you know, 50 years ago, 130 years ago, you could go

00:16:54 back to the Enlightenment, you know, or whatever, but we've switched gods.

00:16:57 and it seems like you know this this these ships move slowly um because of the principle of sowing

00:17:04 you know uh sowing and reaping um and and and god's faithfulness he will not be mocked and so

00:17:08 you sow you sow good seed you're going to reap a harvest for a while after you stop sowing and so

00:17:13 these ships chrysidom and and i think paganism that they they have been kind of slowly passing

00:17:21 in the night and it seems like there was not just a couple weeks or months or years but decades in

00:17:26 our nation where the two ships were kind of like like side by side they had lined up for a moment

00:17:31 and it was it was seemingly because they move slow a long moment that gave the optic that that

00:17:36 neutrality is viable uh that it actually works but it doesn't and and i'm of the persuasion that

00:17:44 secularism is not viable uh that it's actually a placeholder it functions as as not a host but but

00:17:50 a parasite once it's killed its host namely chrysidom that that secularism will actually

00:17:55 only be replaced by some form of paganism. And it seems as though that's been ramping up. And a lot 0.67

00:18:01 of young guys like me are seeing that because we haven't lived the majority of our lives in our

00:18:07 adult lives. My adult life was not in the 70s, in the 80s, in the 90s. I was a little kid born in

00:18:15 the 80s. And so a lot of my adult life, what I've seen is classical liberalism and some of our

00:18:22 our systems utterly failing. And so I don't have a strong dog in the fight of like, we got to get

00:18:29 back to that. So there's a lot of young guys right now are like, let's be Christian. Let's be a

00:18:34 Christian nation. And let's bring that into the civil realm. What would you say to young guys

00:18:39 like me? Where are we? Is there too much zeal? Are we on track? What are we doing right? What

00:18:46 are we maybe doing wrong? Yeah, I think there are a couple of issues at play. And one of those

00:18:52 issues is, um, kind of a, a theological nearsightedness, uh, theological, um, ignorance.

00:19:00 And I think for a long time, you think about the, the church growth movement all the way

00:19:06 from the Jesus movement, right?

00:19:07 In the sixties and seventies, um, this sort of big revivalist movement and, you know,

00:19:13 churches growing and then the church growth movement, um, you know, I'm 54.

00:19:20 Um, I, I came to faith, you know, at 18. Um, and so I saw a lot of that stuff, right.

00:19:29 And there was this sense in which, you know, if you just pull the right levers, um, the church

00:19:37 would grow and, you know, and then the, the religious right, right. Comes along. And again,

00:19:45 And if we just use our influence, you know, if we just have the right people in the right place, then we can get the people that we need in the places that we need and, you know, we can make things happen.

00:19:59 Because, again, we're this big, powerful behemoth with churches that have thousands of people.

00:20:08 And in the midst of that, what we weren't doing was thinking.

00:20:12 What we weren't doing was theology.

00:20:15 We became extremely pragmatic during that time.

00:20:21 And so we've got a couple of generations now of people who have been raised in pragmatic Christianity, who haven't been thinking, who weren't mentored or discipled by people who thought very much other than, you know, pragmatism.

00:20:39 And now when this generation hits a crisis, all we've got is knee jerk reactions.

00:20:49 We've got nothing that's well thought out.

00:20:52 And so that's why you see sort of shouting matches from people going off half cocked who are using terminologies and promoting ideologies with which they've only become familiar recently.

00:21:05 um and and i think that's what we're seeing right now right yeah i i think that i think that that's

00:21:15 absolutely true um it's tough with the pragmatism thing it's tough for me um because i don't want

00:21:24 to be pragmatic i see the drawbacks with that but one of the the debates that i've been in

00:21:30 lately with some of my Baptist brothers is, well, it's got to be bottom up. If there is going to be

00:21:38 revival or reformation, if there is going to be a stop, if we're going to put a stop to

00:21:46 drag queen story hour, sexual mutilation of children, 65 million plus babies murdered in 0.56

00:21:54 their mother's wombs, it's got to be bottom up through the preaching of the gospel,

00:22:00 regenerate hearts um we need more christians and yet i i feel like it's it's never less than that

00:22:08 so my argument is never an alternative to that i'm a local pastor first and foremost i preach

00:22:14 the gospel um so it's never less than that that's the tip of the spear but in addition to that i

00:22:21 feel like now you can make an argument that in the 70s and the 80s and even the 50s and 60s

00:22:27 that our numbers were skewed, that we were bolstering in typical Southern Baptist fashion,

00:22:32 you know, a lot more on the roster than there actually are in the pew, that the numbers were

00:22:36 skewed and that we had a lot of people attending church and professing Christ, but they weren't

00:22:39 actually regenerate. And so you can say, because what I'm about to say is I think we've had the

00:22:44 numbers and it still failed. That's kind of what you just said. And then I know some of my brothers

00:22:48 would say, but we didn't really have the true numbers because there wasn't solid, faithful

00:22:53 gospel preaching that actually converts the soul and i see all of that this is my one my one push

00:22:59 back to to to not even what you said but to to some of my brothers is the sodomites took three

00:23:05 percent less than three percent of the population and with a 40 to 50 year plan they have effectively 0.64

00:23:12 replaced the flag of the united states of america with a rainbow and my point in saying that is

00:23:19 that um it's never less than bottom-up gospel preaching regeneration new hearts and yet at the

00:23:27 same time um there are christians now who actually as individual christians not just churches talking

00:23:34 about politics individual christian men serving as civil magistrates and and they're wanting to know

00:23:40 how how can i be a city council member christianly does the bible say something to me in my vocation

00:23:49 or is it just the sphere of home and church and if the bible does like am i supposed to be a

00:23:55 christian in every realm of life but when i walk into this sphere the public sphere that i take

00:24:02 that christian hat off that i lay it aside i adopt neutral terms um and or can i say yeah it's got

00:24:11 to be bottom-up, preach, regeneration, salvation, discipleship, and at the same time that we can

00:24:18 ethically and even must, commanded by God ethically, to pull some of these state levers

00:24:24 in a Christian direction. What do you think? I'm always skeptical. Whenever somebody says to me, 0.78

00:24:32 it has to be dot, dot, dot. That's not the God I serve, right? Sometimes the king finds the

00:24:42 word of God and revival breaks out, right? That's right. So yeah, I'm never comfortable

00:24:51 when someone says it has to be this or it has to be that. I think the answer is all of the above.

00:25:01 I think the answer is faithfulness wherever we find ourselves, right?

00:25:05 That has to be the answer, you know, faithfulness wherever we find ourselves.

00:25:13 Amen.

00:25:14 So talk to me about Fault Lines.

00:25:16 You wrote the book.

00:25:18 I read the book.

00:25:18 Me and everybody in the whole world, it seems.

00:25:20 I mean, it was a popular book.

00:25:22 Was it a bestseller?

00:25:23 Did it make any bestselling list?

00:25:25 Yeah, it did.

00:25:26 Congratulations.

00:25:27 Well done.

00:25:28 You earned it.

00:25:28 It was a great book.

00:25:29 it was it just you and you before writing the book you've been doing this you know through

00:25:33 preaching and teaching and conferences um the ethnic gnosticism did you you coined that right

00:25:38 that term yeah so and all the way back i think and correct me if i'm not giving you enough credit but

00:25:43 it's as early as 2012 you were kind of sounding some of these alarms yeah really earlier than

00:25:50 that you know okay yeah really really earlier than that well done so i mean you you saw these

00:25:57 things long before i did you know and i i'd like to give myself a little bit of an excuse and say

00:26:02 that you were seeing things when i was still in high school you know so maybe maybe you know

00:26:06 maybe i you know providentially i was born a little bit too late but uh yeah you've done an

00:26:11 excellent job fault lines was so helpful putting words to certain things because because everybody

00:26:16 i mean there's so many christians in the pews they're just like what is going on why why why

00:26:21 are two men that I that I respect and I've respect for years all of a sudden at each other's throats

00:26:27 and and drifting apart and now I think people have made sense of it right 2017 18 19 so in 2018

00:26:34 just for context so I was an Acts 29 pastor uh we left um I pulled the church out in 2018 right

00:26:42 after Eric Mason wrote woke church and so um when that happened I pulled our church out of Acts 29

00:26:48 I spent all of 2019 with my elders and leaders in the church saying, I'm tired of doing theology

00:26:54 a la carte. I don't want to just be a Calvinistic Baptist. Praise God, bless them. But I'd like to

00:27:00 be a confessionally reformed Baptist. So we spent a year, every single week, hours working through

00:27:06 the 1689 Second London Baptist Confession of Faith. We were able to adopt that. At the end, 0.89

00:27:11 I was pastoring Southern California, 2020 hit. So this is right before March, 2020.

00:27:16 things go crazy uh we have some disagreements on how to respond to covid um i i'm saying let's

00:27:24 open the church there's some other guys saying open the church there's some other guys saying

00:27:27 let's not um the lord works through that eventually you know things are good we opened let the record

00:27:33 state we opened um a good six weeks before macarthur made it cool and so now granted it's

00:27:39 It's easier to open a 150-person church than a 10,000-person church.

00:27:45 But we did open before MacArthur.

00:27:48 And then at the end, I'm from Texas.

00:27:52 My wife's parents moved to Texas.

00:27:54 Her sisters and husbands and kids moved to Texas.

00:27:56 My parents are in Texas.

00:27:57 And 2020 really made me miss Texas.

00:28:00 And so we ended up leaving.

00:28:02 Me too.

00:28:04 Yeah, exactly.

00:28:05 so we handed the church over to faithful faithful guys and the church is doing well uh but but we

00:28:10 left and and planting you know doing a new work here in georgetown texas just north of austin

00:28:14 texas and uh far enough for the police not to be defunded and close enough for people to commute

00:28:19 to work and so we you know we're doing a work here but my point in saying all that is that um

00:28:24 fault lines uh was you know you know i was seeing some of these things 2017 18 really

00:28:31 psalm 2020 your book makes sense of it you know gave it gave some extra clarity and hindsight

00:28:37 and for a lot of other evangelicals and realizing you know russell moore god bless him he's not on

00:28:42 my team he's not on our team uh david french is not on our team um francis collins is not on our

00:28:47 team um and and so boom i feel like we kind of with wokeness with with uh positions on the state

00:28:54 and tyranny and and the branch covidians and all the you know whatever you want to call it

00:28:57 We lost about half the team, it feels like. 0.88

00:29:00 It does feel like that, yeah.

00:29:01 But now it's like, are we about to lose?

00:29:05 Are we about to – is the team going to split again?

00:29:08 Because it's like the first set of fault lines was over who sees the problem.

00:29:12 And it seems as though there may be some new fault line shaping up over who sees the solution.

00:29:19 Unite us, buddy.

00:29:21 Help us not divide.

00:29:23 What do you think?

00:29:24 Yeah.

00:29:25 Division is necessary.

00:29:27 um division is absolutely necessary division brings clarity and ultimately it brings real unity

00:29:34 um you know the fact of the matter is the the people who divided um over all of these things um

00:29:45 weren't with us wholeheartedly one day and then turned into different people the next

00:29:53 these crises revealed underlying ideologies and commitments that had always been there

00:30:06 on both sides, you know, it revealed.

00:30:10 Every man has an allegiance.

00:30:11 Yeah, absolutely.

00:30:13 And, you know, but here was the issue.

00:30:16 There were always disagreements, right?

00:30:20 Even in, you know, sort of these broader Reformed circles, whether you call it Young Restless and Reformed, New Calvinism, you know, whatever you want to call it. 0.64

00:30:30 These circles that were really sort of growing and percolating, you know, during that time that brought about the sort of Acts 29s and the T4Gs and the Gospel Coalitions and all of these sorts of things. 0.90

00:30:42 Everybody knew that there were divisions, that there was a lack of agreement, right? 0.63

00:30:51 We had our Presbyterians and our Baptists and, you know, our Dispensationalists and Reformed.

00:30:58 And, you know, we had all of that and everybody acknowledged that we had those differences, yet there was something greater that was holding us together, right?

00:31:09 And so I don't think that, you know, with the Black Lives Matter movement and with COVID and all this, that somehow, you know, people change.

00:31:23 I think the stakes changed. 0.58

00:31:26 I think that these movements actually, you know, drew a line in the sand, right?

00:31:33 They drew fault lines and they were non-negotiables.

00:31:40 They were more non-negotiable than pedo-baptism, credo-baptism, right?

00:31:49 So it's not that we didn't have disagreements before.

00:31:54 It's that these things came about and these things became non-negotiables.

00:31:59 And the culture made them non-negotiables, right?

00:32:02 The culture is the one that said, you know, if you're if you're wrong on this issue, racial justice as defined by the culture, you're outside the camp and there is no, you know, going along to get along.

00:32:17 There is no neutrality on this issue. Right.

00:32:20 Baptism, you know, we can disagree on and go our own ways.

00:32:24 But this issue of, you know, so-called racial justice, that's something where you disqualify yourself.

00:32:32 So that's what we saw. That's what happened. And then all of a sudden, now we're seeing, you know, the other shoe that dropped. And I remember, right, I'm in the middle of, you know, being entrenched, you know, fault lines and all the attacks that are coming because of fault lines.

00:32:50 And, you know, people, you know, using means legitimate and illegitimate, you know, to try to to try to discredit fault lines.

00:32:59 And all of a sudden, you know, I felt like there was real traction.

00:33:05 I felt like there were a lot of people who were saying, yes, amen and thank you.

00:33:10 Right. And then there was more boldness in in in.

00:33:15 in what was

00:33:18 in the side of the argument that had been

00:33:20 forced into silence, right?

00:33:22 There was more boldness in that side of the

00:33:24 argument. And then all of a sudden, out of

00:33:26 nowhere, you almost get whiplash because

00:33:28 people start going, yeah, well,

00:33:30 you're worried about CRT, but what about

00:33:32 this white Christian nationalism?

00:33:38 Like, what?

00:33:39 Wait a minute, what?

00:33:41 You know?

00:33:43 And they start,

00:33:44 you know, citing books by people who are barely in the camp, if at all, um, you, you, you know,

00:33:55 um, and, and I think a lot of us at that point were going, okay, first of all, um, define your

00:34:02 terms, you know, like, like, what do you mean? What are you talking about? Um, define your terms.

00:34:09 You're saying like, like, um, like don't just talk past each other on Twitter, maybe take the

00:34:13 time to write like a statement on your terms of christian nationalism defining what you mean

00:34:19 like if someone did that for instance just hypothetically just hypothetically you know

00:34:24 and but the great thing about statements you know because again in 2000 and and um you know man

00:34:31 covid just messed up the calendar i think it was the social justice statement yeah 18 was that was

00:34:37 it 18 or 19 i think it was 18 or 19 yeah um you know when we came out i signed it proudly yeah

00:34:43 When we came up with that statement, you know, on social justice in the gospel, you know, the great thing about that was that it was a way for people to be identified.

00:34:58 Right.

00:34:59 Right.

00:34:59 It was a way for people to say yay or nay.

00:35:02 And that's what that's what statements and confessions and things like that do.

00:35:07 Right.

00:35:08 They get rid of the squishiness, you know.

00:35:11 And, you know, sometimes people will say, yes, but and they have a legitimate, you know, grief.

00:35:21 And they'll say this, you know, technical issue right here, you know, the way you worded that or the way, you know, whatever.

00:35:28 Right. And that's fine. That's great, because that helps the people who write the statement to sort of massage it, you know, if necessary.

00:35:35 um but what we experienced was people just going um no and we're going okay why where

00:35:46 just no it's not wrong um it's just pastorally unwise and insensitive right it's not it's not

00:35:55 what the statement says yeah it's what it does yes exactly yeah yeah yeah tim keller tim keller

00:36:01 Yeah. It's not what it says. It's what it does. Yeah. That, that was, that was, that was classic right there. But my point, but, you know, my point is that at first, you know, the people who were using the term Christian nationalism, they've always liked Christian nationalism.

00:36:19 Because, again, for the neo-Marxist and for the intersectional, you know, people, you know, you use all three of those terms because the demonic, hegemonic, oppressive power in the United States is, you know, white, male, heterosexual, cisgendered, native born, you know, able-bodied, you know, on down to.

00:36:48 and then you get to you know christian right christianity is is is at the root of the hegemonic

00:36:53 power so when you say that's what they hate yes that's what they hate everything else exactly is

00:36:58 just an angle towards exactly exactly it's all about they hate christ yes so when you say white

00:37:03 christian nationalism you get an intersectional boogeyman right and so that's right the the the

00:37:10 lack of clarity was coming from the people who were using that terminology so when i say define

00:37:14 terms, you know, I was like, what are you talking about? What do you mean? I might be, I might be

00:37:20 right there with you. You know, I might agree that it's, you know, CRT is a problem and this

00:37:26 thing, whatever you're, you know, defining is a problem. And then I go and read, you know, some

00:37:30 of the books, you know, what is it? Codes de Mez, for example. And, you know, Jesus and John

00:37:37 Wayne, which is one that everybody was touting and pointing to. And I'm going, this is not even

00:37:44 in the camp you know right this is this is out of bounds not even in the camp you know and this is

00:37:52 what we're what we're using and what we're touting for you know so i think now we're seeing um

00:37:59 a response on the other end where where people are saying okay fine if you want to throw that

00:38:05 terminology around um and not define it or define it poorly um you know the other one

00:38:12 the really popular one was um what was it was taking america back for god i forget the authors

00:38:19 of that one but that one had a lot of traction i can't remember but yeah but that one had a lot

00:38:23 of traction as well um and and at least you know made more of an effort to really define christian

00:38:30 nationalism but the way they defined it included jews and you know black people were included as

00:38:36 white christian nationalists and you know all this other sort of stuff um so it's now people

00:38:41 on the other side going okay fine here's where here's where we stand here's what we you know

00:38:48 understand in all of this um but again it's it's part of it's part of this same battle it's just

00:38:56 the next front in this in this same battle and we have to clarify it i think theology

00:39:04 theology sharpens over time and it sharpens with sharp disputes disagreements in fact in the

00:39:10 providence of god he often raises up heretics just so that the church will go back to the drawing

00:39:15 board and shore up their theology on the hypostatic union or so short you know and

00:39:19 when we forget that it's like yes there is a strength undoubtedly i'm confessing there's a

00:39:25 strength to church history but we forget that it that it took about 400 years to figure out who god

00:39:30 is you know and and and to figure out is that you know the dual nature of christ as the second

00:39:36 member of the trinity and and the way i see the big picture and it's part of this is my

00:39:40 post-millennialism talking but i you know the first thousand years it's like theology proper

00:39:45 doctrine of god the next thousand years soteriology right that's a big one let's let's figure to dial

00:39:50 that in with the reformation figure out how are people saved i i have a sneaking suspicion right

00:39:54 here on the beginning of this third millennium um since since christ and and his earthly ministry

00:40:01 i think christian ethics is going to be a big one i don't know if it'll be the one but i think you

00:40:06 know who is god um who is man and how is he saved soteriology but then christian ethics and i and i

00:40:13 think the civil magistrate is going to be a big part of that and our understanding of um how do

00:40:18 these things play out how does this apply how does you know go ahead it seems like you're going to

00:40:23 say something yeah and i'm saying even in in all of those things it was never new right there were

00:40:31 There were always people who were right on all of those things.

00:40:35 But the time, you know, it took time to sort of separate the wheat and the chad.

00:40:41 And it's the same here.

00:40:42 There are people who've been writing and thinking rightly on these issues for a long, long time.

00:40:51 And interestingly enough, what people are having to do is to go back to some of those people who were writing and thinking rightly on these issues, you know, in order to sort of, you know, backfill and move forward.

00:41:11 And it's like you said, it's a good thing because it sharpens.

00:41:15 It's absolutely necessary.

00:41:17 But here's the problem.

00:41:18 The problem is, like I said before, what the culture has done is it has emasculated us.

00:41:29 When we talk about sharp disagreement and sharp disagreement being used to sharpen us, that's very masculine.

00:41:43 As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

00:41:45 That's very masculine.

00:41:46 And our effeminate culture hates masculinity.

00:41:53 And because of that, it hates sharp disagreement.

00:41:57 And so sharp disagreement is no longer allowed.

00:41:59 It's just disqualification.

00:42:01 It's cancel culture, right?

00:42:03 You're not saying the right thing on this.

00:42:06 Therefore, you are disqualified. 1.00

00:42:09 You are wicked. 0.99

00:42:10 You are excommunicated. 1.00

00:42:12 Right.

00:42:14 Yep.

00:42:14 and and sometimes you can do it just with uh the method and and not even have to engage the message

00:42:21 right you can say that um well i don't like your tone i don't like that uh that you know there are

00:42:27 guys on your side using uh using memes you know or and so you're being harsh or you're being or

00:42:33 you might even say you know i don't like the font you know i yeah or it's not what it says it's what

00:42:41 it does right exactly you know i i'm over here just saying i long for the day voting when a

00:42:47 statement will be judged by the character of its content and not the color of its font

00:42:52 that's where i am i know all that being said i think that was a bad idea we changed the font but

00:42:58 but yeah but engaging the argument and not just dismissing um not just and and both sides can do

00:43:04 it and say like well well um you're you know because because there's the theo bro group and

00:43:10 a lot of them are on my side of the issue. And, uh, and so it can just be like, well, you're

00:43:15 effeminate, right? Because, uh, because we've been, uh, we're not complementarians anymore,

00:43:19 Votie. I don't know if you've kept up with this, but, uh, we've been patriarchal for about 15

00:43:23 minutes, right? We came into that doctrine, you know, myself included. And because we we've held

00:43:27 firmly to this doctrine for the last 15 minutes, you know, we'll dismiss anybody as being effeminate,

00:43:31 you know, if they don't agree with it. So we can do that. And then on the other side of the aisle,

00:43:35 It can be very much, this is harsh or this is whatever.

00:43:40 And then neither one actually has to engage theological substance.

00:43:44 So if we can get there, what I hear you saying is, no, we don't need a false, trite, shallow

00:43:50 sense of unity.

00:43:51 We need the true unity that comes providentially by God's grace through division, iron sharpening

00:43:58 iron.

00:43:59 But the problem is we can't even get, not only can we not get to the true unity, we can't

00:44:03 get to the true unity because we can't even get to the true division right now we still see

00:44:08 squabbling over um tone method um we need to i'd like to see some real division over arguments

00:44:16 over substance and and that goes for both sides by the way like but we really need to engage

00:44:21 make me an argument uh from the bible give me bible uh for why christian culture is a net

00:44:31 negative. I understand Christian culture in a societal at-large way can produce or at least 0.99

00:44:40 influence nominal Christianity, nominal seminaries, nominal doctrine, nominal preaching to the point

00:44:47 where the gospel is assumed, eventually neglected, eventually utterly lost, to produce less

00:44:54 conversion. Now, but wait a second, you're making me that argument. Do you catechize your kids?

00:44:59 did you take them out of public school and put them in a christian school or home school

00:45:04 so in the sphere of your individual family you're treating christian culture not as though it's

00:45:11 salvific because no one's saying that but you are treating it as though it is good that the law of

00:45:18 god has an evangelistic sense no man will be saved by works as done unto the law but it is a tutor

00:45:23 and the law insofar as it accurately reflects god's holiness it therefore reveals man's

00:45:29 sinfulness and drives us to christ as the only one who can fill that infinite chasm

00:45:34 yeah but you're doing that in your home can we do that in a country can we do that in a country

00:45:39 but think about what i said before with you know the the jesus movement and the church growth

00:45:45 movement and all these other things there was an anti-intellectualism and an anti-confessionalism

00:45:50 And because of that, you know, talking about the law, talking about the threefold division of the law, talking about the three uses of the law, this is foreign to an entire generation, right?

00:46:07 And so, you know, you're already talking about something that's two, three steps ahead of where people are ready to, yeah, of where people are ready to engage.

00:46:20 So, again, there's a lot of backfilling that needs to be done.

00:46:27 And, well, anyway, you know, by God's grace.

00:46:30 You're absolutely right.

00:46:32 Well, this has been so helpful for me.

00:46:34 I know it'll be helpful for our listeners.

00:46:35 Pretty much everybody who follows me just, you know, is watching my stuff whenever you don't have content for them to watch.

00:46:44 So I know that everybody will be excited about this episode, getting to watch you.

00:46:49 Any final thoughts that you have for us or anything that you want to plug with your ministry,

00:46:53 things that people can pray for or follow or pay attention to?

00:46:57 Yeah.

00:46:57 I mean, just this new curriculum piece that we have out, this Fault Lines curriculum

00:47:02 piece, I mean, I think it's an important tool.

00:47:06 There are some people who've read the book for whom this will be helpful in, you know,

00:47:11 sort of going deeper into that message.

00:47:13 Some people who haven't for whom this will be a helpful introduction.

00:47:19 We're looking at things from, you know, sort of different view and different perspective.

00:47:24 And I think it will also be helpful for engaging in this kind of sharpening that you were talking about.

00:47:31 You know, sometimes having somebody else who's the lightning rod helps, you know, helps to soften the blow.

00:47:40 And so, you know, our hope is that people will get a hold of this and that they'll use it and that it'll be helpful.

00:47:45 in, if nothing else, furthering, you know,

00:47:50 those iron sharpening iron kind of discussions

00:47:52 around some of these issues.

00:47:55 Amen.

00:47:56 Where can people find that?

00:47:58 They can find it at Salem Now.

00:48:01 Okay.

00:48:02 Yeah, Salem Now, SalemNow.com, SalemNow.org.

00:48:06 Okay.

00:48:06 I don't know which one it is.

00:48:07 And I'm pretty sure you guys have an app too.

00:48:09 You can go to the app store and download Salem Now.

00:48:11 Yeah.

00:48:11 Great.

00:48:12 And selfishly, I'll just plug my little thing too.

00:48:15 that if anybody is wondering, sure, there's a bunch of different, there's a wide spectrum of

00:48:20 people who'd have different views of what Christian nationalism is. But anybody who wants to know my

00:48:26 team, and I'm not putting voting on our team, we'll wait, let him read the statement. He'll sign it,

00:48:29 but we'll give him time. But for those who are on my team, guys like William Wolfe, you know,

00:48:35 guys like Dusty Deavers, our statement, if you want to read it, it's a statement on

00:48:40 christiannationalism.com statement on christiannationalism.com um and our goal is uh is

00:48:46 not to make a name for ourself our goal is that you could actually understand what our position is

00:48:49 so that we can see i've got a sneaking suspicion that there might be less disagreement than we

00:48:54 think there is and and perhaps we could get on the same team and if not at least we can actually

00:48:58 engage the substance and and uh and that's what we need we need iron sharpening iron well voti

00:49:04 thank you so much for your time your graciousness your willingness to come on the show i know you're

00:49:07 a busy man. And we hope to have you on the show sometime again in the future. Thank you, brother.

00:49:12 It's been great. Thank you for the work that you've been doing. It's really encouraging and

00:49:17 I appreciate it. Thank you. God bless. And thank you guys for tuning into this episode and we'll

00:49:22 see you again with Theology Applied next week. We've been privileged by Vodibaka Ministries to

00:49:28 be given a piece of their content to share with all of you. Vodibaka has a new teaching series

00:49:34 fleshing out the ideas that he popularized in his book, Fault Lines.

00:49:39 So if you've read the book, but you want further discussion, further explanation and biblical

00:49:44 teaching on that issue, the things that are dividing us today, not only in the culture

00:49:50 at large, but even within the church, then you've got to check out their new series,

00:49:55 Fault Lines with Vodibach and Ministries.

00:49:58 And here is a video that they've given us permission to share with you.

00:50:01 It's the introduction to this new teaching series.

00:50:04 enjoy. I wrote Fault Lines because of my love for the church. We're doing this project because

00:50:12 of love for the church. I honestly believe that the critical social justice movement represents

00:50:20 a threat, an existential threat, not a threat to Christianity per se, because Christianity can't

00:50:27 be threatened. God is on his throne. He will protect his bride. However, it represents a

00:50:34 threat to unity within the body. If we got to act like that the disadvantages between us

00:50:40 are cultural and are not systemic, then we can't be together. Critical race theorists want to

00:50:46 deliver us from the basement low ambitions of a thin emaciated view of equality. It represents

00:50:55 a threat to the clarity of the message that we communicate. Whiteness becomes the standard by 1.00

00:51:04 which all good theology is judged. Whiteness is rooted in plunder, in theft, in slavery, 0.97

00:51:11 genocide of Native Americans sitting on stolen land. So that if it's right theology, it's written 0.96

00:51:17 by a white scholar who is contextualizing that theology for white audiences the gospel will

00:51:26 always be the gospel however we are not always faithful in the way that we communicate the

00:51:33 gospel because silence is too high price to pay to be unified when our necks are under a police

00:51:40 sleep. Anti-racists fundamentally reject savior theology. That goes right in line with racist

00:51:49 ideas and racist theology. And we're not always faithful in the way that we apply the gospel.

00:51:55 When you sign up for this congregation, you're signing up to be part of racial justice. And if

00:51:59 that's not for you, then this church is not for you. The solution is fundamentally, yes, the gospel,

00:52:05 the cross, the resurrection, but also dethroning white supremacy in all of the forms in which it

00:52:13 shows up in Christian spaces. So the goal here is to fight for faithfulness, to fight for the truth

00:52:22 of that gospel, to fight for the bride of Christ, to fight for unity in the bride of Christ.

00:52:30 It's a breakthrough if you can get white people to acknowledge that our race privileges us in this society.

00:52:37 That is like the second coming.

00:52:39 Virtually no white man thinks they are guilty.

00:52:42 You have to push and push and push to the point where, hey, wait a minute, I think you're pushing an agenda.

00:52:49 Well, you're finally listening.

00:52:51 My psychosocial development was inculcated in the water of white supremacy.

00:52:56 I have grown up with this invisible kind of bag of privilege.

00:53:01 Like, I am a racist.

00:53:04 A system in which whiteness and white people are central and seen as inherently superior to people of color. 0.99

00:53:12 I'm going to struggle with racism and white supremacy until the day I die and get my glorified body. 0.98

00:53:18 What I'm talking about right now is white privilege. 0.98

00:53:21 Because I'm immersed in a culture where I benefit from racism all the time. 0.89

00:53:25 Nothing makes Anglos more angry than the idea of white privilege.

00:53:30 The Bible is very clear about the issue of justice.

00:53:35 What does the Lord require of you to do justice, love mercy, and walk humbly with your God?

00:53:41 We know this from Micah 6.8.

00:53:44 And so justice is not optional for the people of God.

00:53:48 That's why it's so critical that we understand what justice is.

00:53:53 one of the dangers of the social justice movement is that it uses terminology that on the surface

00:54:02 sounds like it ought to be what we as Christians are about. Social justice. Am I against justice?

00:54:12 Of course not. I'm for justice. Anti-racism. Am I pro-racism? Of course not.

00:54:18 so what we need to do is get behind these terms get behind these words and look at two things

00:54:29 number one look at what people mean when they use them in this cultural moment and number two

00:54:36 evaluate that in light of what the bible says about the same issues so for example when we

00:54:45 talk about justice from a biblical perspective. Justice means the righteous application,

00:54:52 the impartial application of the law of God in a given circumstance. We're told that we're not

00:54:59 to be impartial to the poor or to the rich. We have to apply God's law equally across the board.

00:55:09 Social justice means something very different. And so if we're going to have conversations

00:55:15 about justice, if we're going to have conversations about contemporary issues of our day,

00:55:22 we're going to have to do so in light of what the Word of God has to teach about all of these issues

00:55:30 and while evaluating the cultural moment.

00:55:36 You know, I've come a long way on a lot of these issues.

00:55:40 I am a guy who had as probably the biggest hero of my life, Malcolm X.

00:55:52 I am a guy who was always very Afrocentric, very, you could say, social justice oriented.

00:56:03 As a believer, I came to a crossroads, and I recognized that, for the most part, I identified a lot more with my blackness than I did with my Christianity.

00:56:19 For the most part, it was much more important to me that I was black than it was that I was Christian.

00:56:28 Over time, I had to come to grips with the fact that in Christ, at the foot of the cross,

00:56:36 there is no male or female, there is no Jew or Greek, slave or free.

00:56:43 Over time, I had to come to grips with the fact that Christ died not only to reconcile us vertically to the Father,

00:56:53 but to reconcile us horizontally with one another.

00:56:56 and that I am a member of the body of Christ

00:56:59 and that nothing supersedes that.

00:57:03 Nothing is more important than that.

00:57:05 And it is that realization

00:57:08 and my desire to see that unity manifested

00:57:14 within the body of Christ.

00:57:17 If you're doing this study with a group,

00:57:20 my hope is that this would be a place

00:57:23 where you can be open,

00:57:24 where you can be honest, a place where you can evaluate the narratives that are flying

00:57:32 all around you, and a place where you can judge those things, not according to your

00:57:40 feelings, but according to the truth of the scriptures, according to what thus saith

00:57:47 the Lord. I do believe that justice is incredibly important, but justice is only important to the

00:57:58 degree that it is the justice that God demands. To that end, we have to be right about what the

00:58:07 word justice means and about what God requires of his people in this critical moment.

00:58:17 Can I be frank with you for just a second, right here at the end?

00:58:20 Look, some of you guys, you're financially supporting this ministry,

00:58:24 and from the bottom of my heart, I say thank you.

00:58:27 I cannot thank you enough.

00:58:30 However, some of you, you just, you can't afford it.

00:58:33 In fact, some of you, you shouldn't afford it.

00:58:36 Let's be honest. 0.91

00:58:37 I mean, we're living in Joe Biden's ridiculous economy. 0.97

00:58:41 Our nation and our totalitarian political elites lost their minds over the last three years 0.91

00:58:49 due to COVID. We have written checks that we simply cannot cash. It doesn't matter if people

00:58:56 change the definition of a recession. We are living in a recession right now regardless.

00:59:03 Some of you are struggling to afford a carton of eggs at the grocery store. You cannot support

00:59:09 financially this ministry at this time, nor should you, but you could still help us tremendously.

00:59:16 I am asking you, please, if you're willing to do so, take one minute of your time. Leave us a

00:59:23 five-star review on your favorite podcast platform, iTunes, Spotify, whatever that might be.

00:59:30 This is the way the system works. We want to be innocent as doves, but shrewd as vipers.

00:59:36 We need to be strategic.

00:59:38 You leave us a five-star review, and our podcast shows up for more people.

00:59:43 And the Word of God and courageous theology applied in practical ways to every realm of

00:59:50 life gets out there.

00:59:52 Help us get it out there.

00:59:54 Thanks for tuning in.

`witch hunt`	Both words, anywhere in the episode.
`"witch hunt"`	The exact phrase.
`witch OR hunt`	Either word.
`"alpha male" -"high value"`	The first phrase, but not the second.
`(feminist OR feminism) AND (marriage OR divorce)`	Parentheses group alternatives.
`"decline civilization"~5`	Both words within 5 words of each other.

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`person:"Andrew Tate"`	Episodes where they host, guest, or are mentioned.
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`"great replacement" AND episode_date:[NOW-1YEAR TO NOW]`	From the past 12 months.
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The NXR Podcast - May 09, 2023

THEOLOGY APPLIED - The Christian Nationalism Debate And The Need For Unity w Voddie Baucham

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Summary

Transcript