00:01:26.580that we were christians we always had a king james bible on the shelf we would read from it
00:01:31.720we went to church every sunday testimony meetings on wednesdays and then as an adult
00:01:36.780i segued right into the new age which is basically it's all gnosticism christian science is
00:01:42.860gnosticism new age is gnosticism and it borrows from all different cultures it borrows from
00:01:49.920hinduism from shamanic you know native american spirituality from ancient celtic spirituality
00:01:56.400you name it and it puts a little bit of christianity and also mystical catholicism in it
00:02:02.100and so uh i was always identified myself as a christian i called myself an open-minded christian
00:02:09.940i thought of born-again christians as being fear-based negative uh they were asleep and we
00:02:16.660were woke and and i would listen to christian radio and then i would also listen to hindu
00:02:22.580gurus you know i was mixing trying to mix all this and they don't mix of course
00:02:27.740that's my main message today uh and i i heard an alistair beg sermon in january 2015 that pierced
00:02:34.980me and uh and really started um my road to sanctification and salvation uh he was doing
00:02:41.980an expository sermon on second timothy four that in the end times people will want their their
00:02:47.880itching ears tickled by false pastors false teachers and and he he listed out what a false
00:02:54.140teacher was and it just it got me i he was talking about me and i realized i was a false teacher
00:03:01.140i went home and told my husband i said you know let's go to church and not not a new age church
00:03:07.160like we've been going to let's go to a real church i called it and uh that was what really what what
00:03:14.180saved me was reading the bible and when i got to deuteronomy 18 10 through 12 the the list of
00:03:21.320things that moses listed that the israelites were not to do as they went into canaan um
00:03:29.580they were he was describing me and all of the the methods i was using mediumship divination
00:03:37.820interpreting omens and so then of course Deuteronomy 18 says God finds people who do0.98
00:03:46.220those things an abomination detestable and I had thought like most new agers you talk to will say0.98
00:03:53.340that they're doing God's work they don't know God I didn't know God in new age you think God is an0.93
00:04:00.120energy um you think of him as the universe and and so i i thought i was doing god's work because
00:04:08.140people in the new age always told me that i was comforting them i was very accurate
00:04:12.200and to find out i was actually the opposite that i was an abomination to god just broke me
00:04:17.860like i needed to be broken humbled me to just the dirt and i got on my knees and i repented
00:04:25.420right then and i just said i don't know what i'm doing obviously please lord jesus take take over
00:04:30.880my life be my lord and savior and i renounced the new age i got fired by my publisher i was the top
00:04:37.420selling new age author at that time wow not to brag but i i was we taught and i was touring with
00:04:44.580all the same uh new age teachers for two decades you know wayne dyer louise hay deepak chopra
00:04:51.820marion williamson the guy who wrote conversations with god the the person who who was kind of the
00:04:58.480kingpin of the secret the law of attraction all these people were friends you know i was touring
00:05:04.880with them and just walked away from all that i had a big ranch in hawaii 50 acres my husband and i
00:05:12.580just left it and moved to the pacific northwest with my parents and my mother-in-law so we got
00:05:18.800a few houses that were together under one roof and and then uh it's just it's been it's been an0.98
00:05:26.400interesting ride being a christian it's not right that's for sure yeah it's cost you something
00:05:32.100it's actually cost you something you had to well because you were you were going against god
00:05:37.840and you were accumulating you know fame and fortune and those kinds of things and but it i
00:05:43.520I love your testimony because a lot of times there's people who are in the church who would profess to be Christians and perhaps they're an immature believer, but they've never had a real reckoning with the severity of their own sin.
00:05:57.640They've never come to see their sin as heinous as it is in the sight of God.
00:06:01.860And I love how you said that it's not just these practices of divination that God detests, but the people who actually practice them.
00:06:09.380And so I'm always, as a pastor, reminding people when I'm preaching that forever in hell, God will not be punishing the entity of lust.
00:08:16.700And so people get into the New Age because they feel bad about themselves.
00:08:20.380A lot of the people I met who were at my workshops were people who told me they were recovering Catholics or former Protestants who felt like the church was beating them up with all fire and damnation.
00:08:34.260But now I see that it's, when I go to church, you know, when we're visiting different cities, of course, my husband and I are Reformed Baptists now.
00:09:42.380And so it seems like the New Age almost preys on people who have heard the gospel and have heard true biblical preaching, but have not, I don't know, who have been offended by the gospel.
00:09:58.440They don't like the idea that they're a sinner.
00:10:00.360And the New Age sweeps in and says, oh, no, no, you're not.
00:10:03.600you're totally fine because you were making it sound like a lot of a lot of the people who kind
00:10:08.840of came into the movement were people who are fleeing the church so to speak is that true
00:10:14.420yeah absolutely true um and so the new age even goes farther than that and teaches there's no
00:10:21.760such thing as sin the only sin is a negative thought here on earth and that heaven and hell
00:10:29.520metaphors but at the same time they also teach that there's a literal heaven and they go on
00:10:35.040near-death experience reports rather than the bible to back up their universalist pluralistic
00:10:41.280claims that everyone goes to heaven that all paths lead to heaven you see oprah and the the darling
00:10:48.340of evangelical um some evangelical circles richard roar says this that all paths lead to heaven you
00:10:56.700just need to be a good person and you go to heaven right a new age finds a new person as
00:11:01.080someone who recycles and is good to animals that's how they find new you know that you're going to
00:11:07.240heaven yeah so a californian yeah exactly and hell is a they believe it's just a metaphor for having
00:11:15.360a negative life and that you attracted those negative experiences from having negative thoughts
00:11:23.480As you were talking, it just made me think of 1 John 1, verse 8.
00:11:27.780If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
00:11:32.860Verse 9, but if we confess our sins, he, that is Christ, is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
00:11:41.240And then the last verse of 1 John 1, verse 10.
00:11:45.360If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
00:11:50.880And I've noticed that even in the church, not only a message that says that you,
00:11:59.040verse 8 says, if we have no sin, so like that we currently, presently are free from sin.
00:12:42.820that they currently are free from sin,
00:12:45.320but they're now convinced that they've actually never sinned.
00:12:48.060They've always been a victim or they've always, it's always been something else or really, like you said, the only real sin, the only real crime that they've ever committed is just thinking too lowly of themselves and not believing in themselves and not believing that they are valuable and worth it and those kinds of things.
00:13:06.120And it's sad to see that that message is not too rare in pulpits.
00:13:12.920No, I would say it's growing in popularity. Growing up in Christian science, and then unfortunately, I passed the deception along that we took Genesis 1, 26, 27 about image of God, imago Deo. And we twisted it to say that because God is sinless, God's healthy, God's perfect, whole and complete. Therefore, a true self is sinless. A true self is. And so we just disregard, we swept right by the fall.
00:13:39.900Right. The first two chapters of the Bible and from Genesis 3 on, you know, the Bible got it wrong.
00:13:47.600So, yeah, I understand. So another thing I wanted to pick up on that you said earlier as we were discussing,
00:13:54.520you said that women seem to be the kind of the primary clientele, if you will, for New Ageism.
00:14:03.400Why particularly do you think that is? You were talking about maybe abuse in their past or things like that.
00:14:08.260Why is it that women seem to be more attracted to the message of, because as a man, I think, you know, like, you know, the idea that I've never done anything wrong and that I'm significant and valuable, like, that sounds like a universal message.
00:15:34.240Yeah, that's super common. So who are some people, maybe as like, I don't know, as a loving warning to some of our listeners, who are a couple of people who you would say, I read their writings or I listen to their podcast and it's just drenched in new age thought and ideas.
00:15:56.280but this person professes to be a Christian
00:18:53.780And so he sets Christ up as the premier example of humility.
00:18:57.760And he talks about, you know, in Philippians chapter 2,
00:19:00.800that Christ did not count equality with God as something to be grasped,
00:19:05.600but rather he emptied himself, taking the form of a servant.
00:19:09.780And, you know, we also have that with Mark, I believe it's chapter 10 or chapter 12, where the son of man did not come to be served, but to serve.
00:19:18.820And so what a lot of what a lot of heretical teachers have done with the doctrine of the kenosis, the emptying of Christ, they've looked at Philippians 2 and they've said, well, you know, Jesus, he didn't count equality with God.
00:19:31.720The father is something to be grasped.
00:19:33.500But what the language literally means there is not something to be clinged to.
00:19:37.180So Paul's not saying that God the Father was superior to Christ in his essence, in his divine nature, and Jesus, the Son of God, was looking to God the Father and realized, oh, I can't even achieve or attain to your status.
00:19:53.080No, no, the language is not grasp or attain, it's cling to it, it means to hold on.
00:19:59.500And so basically what Paul is saying is that Jesus did have equality with the Father and does have equality with the Father.
00:20:06.440And because he was equal with the Father, he didn't view that equality as something that needed to be preserved, it needed to be clinged to, but rather he was willing to empty himself.
00:20:16.840But Orthodox teaching says that it's empty, it's subtraction by addition.
00:20:23.540That emptying of the divine nature, it's not a real emptying, it's simply the Son adding to himself a second nature, namely the human nature.
00:20:31.500As Augustine said, it's divinity wrapped in flesh.
00:20:35.180And so there's no less of the divine nature of Christ in the incarnation.
00:20:40.120It's simply all of God, very God, a very God, very light, a very light, as the Nicene Creed says.
00:20:45.720It's the whole God-man, but with man being added.
00:20:49.860And so it's subtraction by addition, but it's not in objective terms.
00:21:03.180But what prosperity teachers do is they talk about the kenosis.
00:21:07.740And so basically what Bill Johnson, especially what I've noticed he'll do is he'll say, you know, Jesus completely emptied himself, right?
00:21:14.140Because if Jesus was doing all these miracles and if he was living a sinless life and if he was teaching the truth of God, but he was doing all this as God, well, then we could never look at that example and follow it because he's cheating in essence because he's got the divine nature.
00:21:29.440So what Jesus did was he showed us the example of being a perfect man by emptying in real terms, actually forfeiting his divinity.
00:21:37.660And so everything Jesus did was not, none of it was coming from the divine nature.
00:21:42.020It was all coming from just a reliance on the Holy Spirit.
00:21:45.540And you and I, we can do that very same thing.
00:21:48.220So there's not one thing that we ever see Jesus teaching or doing or miracles that he's performing that Christians should not aspire to today.
00:21:57.720And boom, it sounds really good, but immediately what seeps in is this mentality of, like Bill Johnson calls it, the Jesus theology.0.97
00:22:06.500And so any kind of teaching that doesn't prescribe that we can do exactly what Jesus is doing, he's going to reject and say, well, that's not Bible.
00:22:16.780And so then you have a bunch of Christians going around saying, my life should literally look exactly like the son of God's life here on earth, which is, it sounds good.
00:22:27.260that's just, it's too black and white of a statement. Yes, we should follow the example0.77
00:22:32.000of Christ, but no, we're not going to be multiplying food and feeding 5,000 people.
00:22:36.900That's just, that's insane. And so I just noticed it seeped in so subtly and it sounds so good.
00:22:44.520And a lot of Christians seem to be falling for it. Do you have any comments or follow-up or0.94
00:22:51.140thoughts on that yeah i mean i was shocked when i left the new age because i toured on stages
00:22:57.840of mind body spirit festivals for 22 years and when i first saw bethel tv and i saw you know
00:23:05.360heidi johnson and some of the prophets and prophetesses up there i said that's exactly
00:23:10.420what i left that's a mind body spirit festival right there's no difference these these prophets
00:23:16.360first of all they have nothing to do with biblical prophets if you compare them which we're supposed
00:23:23.180to do like bereans compare everything to scripture um biblical prophets didn't tell people about
00:23:29.020their soulmate or their life purpose or anything like that you know they were not stroking people's
00:23:35.860they were calling people to repent and to come to the covenant or destruction would happen horrible
00:23:42.200destruction so um when people call themselves prophets or self-appointed apostles uh and
00:23:48.660especially when they have schools where you can buy a certificate to be a certified prophet
00:23:53.840certified apostle wow so much what martin luther was dealing with yeah you're right indulgences
00:24:01.480yeah indulgence yes you can buy your relatives out of purgatory can you hear can you hear their
00:24:08.060screams in purgatory every time a coin in the coffer clinks a soul from or clings a soul from
00:24:15.120purgatory springs yeah the teachings of tetzel that luther was combating it's it's sad it's really
00:24:21.140it's charlatan work it really is just taking advantage do you think a lot of do you think so
00:24:27.240we talked about how a lot of women seem to be attracted to the new age movement do you taking
00:24:32.060aside men and women do you think like young versus old rich versus poor have have you noticed
00:24:38.140anything like that or in that sense does it seem to be just a blanket universal like were there a
00:24:43.260lot of poor people who are just really attracted or were there a lot of successful powerful rich
00:24:48.400people you know what i mean yeah absolutely i toured all around the world um i toured you know
00:24:55.640south africa all around asia um i was in australia all the time touring in north america you name it
00:25:03.800i was giving workshops there and everywhere i went consistently it was women of all different
00:25:09.920socioeconomic backgrounds um all different ages i mean they'd be from pre-teen to senior citizens
00:25:17.420everywhere i'd go and uh so i don't i don't think it had any kind of class divisions at all i mean
00:25:24.780I think so, but there was very wealthy people and celebrities at my workshops consistently.
00:25:30.880What do you think is the appeal for somebody who already has fortune, already has fame?
00:25:36.140Is it a way of just, maybe they're not trying.
00:25:39.780So for some people, maybe new age, like prosperity preachers, it's a lotto ticket.
00:25:45.700It's an opportunity, a hope, a chance to gain wealth or to gain the approval of man.
00:25:52.120But would you say that maybe for those who already have fame and fortune, that prosperity preaching, which is really just New Ageism in the church, would you say that maybe the appeal is just a way to assuage the conscience, to deal with guilt?
00:26:09.180Like, I already am famous and wealthy, and by doing this, I also get to be a good person and not feel bad about my celebrity status or that I have more than others.
00:26:22.400Do you think that might be the appeal?
00:31:38.460It's just, there are some things, there are some things because of the doctrine of common grace, because of the Imago Dei, God does create man in his image.
00:31:48.960That image is marred, it's tarnished because of original sin, but it's not utterly lost.
00:31:55.000And so there is an image of God that remains in every single human being.
00:31:58.360And so even the unbeliever, because of the Imago Dei, because of common grace, we're capable of doing wonderful things.
00:32:05.260A non-Christian could build an incredible suspension bridge that I, as a Christian, knowing that that person is at enmity with God and their heart of hearts hates God because they've still, even as an unbeliever, are made in the image of God, I'm going to trust that suspension bridge and I would be willing to drive my family over it.
00:32:24.160And so there are some things because of common grace that they're not Christian necessarily, but all truth is God's truth.0.73
00:32:31.940And so that's, I always want Christians to realize like all truth is God's truth.
00:32:36.080And so even a non-Christian can build a suspension bridge.
00:32:39.680They can do many wonderful things.0.98
00:32:41.600And as Christians, we can discern and see, okay, that's ultimately, a non-Christian may0.65
00:32:46.580be doing it, but that non-Christian has simply discovered something that ultimately belongs0.67
00:33:00.780So there's things that we need to preserve, there's things that we need to redeem, and there are other things that we need to entirely reject and discard.0.87
00:33:12.400And I think Christians sometimes have a hard, they have difficulty with that rejection piece.0.93
00:33:17.820They're like, well, you know, why can't yoga be redeemed?
00:33:21.120And I, you know, like you've already said so wonderfully, yoga is not like a suspension bridge.
00:33:26.520It's not mathematics, a universal truth that ultimately stems from God, who is truth.
00:33:50.740And so when I heard you say that, when I was just looking at some of your content, I was so encouraged to hear that because it just gave me another weapon in my arsenal to be able to try to encourage and plead with Christians to walk away.1.00
00:34:15.460that would be wonderful because that's like the new, I feel like that's the gospel 2.0 for a lot
00:34:20.260of Christians today. I hear all the time about the Enneagram. What are your thoughts? Well,
00:34:25.840it's, you know, let's look at the roots, the basis of it. Some people would discount the basis of
00:34:30.660something, but some would like me want to take a look at it. So it's a geographical shape. I mean,
00:34:36.440a geometrical shape that was added to by a man named Claudio Naranjo, who openly admits, and I've
00:34:43.400got a video of him admitting this that he found the nine personality enneatypes through automatic
00:34:50.840writing which is an occult practice of channeling where you empty your mind you go into a trance
00:34:56.420and you write down whatever comes in so the basis of the enneagram is a cult and that should be
00:35:02.240enough for any bible-believing christian to reject but let's just say they they say well that doesn't
00:35:07.200matter let's look at the effects of the enneagram first of all you've got pride how many times have
00:35:13.760you heard people bragging and boasting about what enneagram number they are i have heard
00:35:18.140you know i'm i'm an eight i'm wonderful and i hate ones and my husband's a six oh that explains
00:35:24.040everything they're talking like people who follow astrology and they're bragging about you know
00:35:29.140virgo or scorpio i mean they're identifying as something other than a child of god as an adopted
00:35:35.340son of christ they're this is not biblical and so then people go to well the benefits and i hear
00:35:42.960this all the time about christians who want to defend using new age methods and they always say
00:35:50.280but it brings me comfort it helps me in my relationship helps me to understand myself
00:35:55.020but but but but we can't justify sin there's no benefit that can justify any kind of sin
00:36:03.080And so hopefully any Christian will be convicted by hearing this and will stay far, far away from Enneagram because it's being popularized by Richard Rohr, who is a universalist, a perennialist.
00:36:17.680He teaches that all people, no matter what, go to heaven.
00:36:28.380Yeah, it's become incredibly popular in the church today.
00:36:31.900I hear Christians always talking about, you know, what's your, you know, what, what, what, I don't even know the word for the Enneagram, but what, what are you call each of the nine things?
00:36:44.600So I hear that kind of language and those conversations quite often.
00:36:47.940And to me, it always seems like an excuse to, to, well, because I'm this, I can't really be expected to overcome this particular weakness, this particular sin.
00:37:00.040It almost seems to be used often as a way of justifying certain sins, whereas we don't have nine Bibles, you know, written to nine different personality types.
00:37:11.220We have one Bible, and it seems as though God has his final word to all people, regardless of ethnicity, regardless of gender, regardless of personality type.
00:37:23.080It just seems like it's just one more way to divide people and to, in some sense, come up with justifications for those parts of our hearts and our lives that aren't in line with God's word.
00:37:36.900And so I've always been kind of concerned about that when I hear people, well, you know, yeah, I share with that, but that's because I'm, you know, blank.
00:37:46.060And I'm like, what does that have to do with anything?
00:37:49.880So, all right, well, this is what, go ahead, go ahead.0.97
00:37:53.080I was just going to say, you know, this channeled material in the church, Jesus calling, I would put that as a top priority for Christians to speak out against.0.66
00:38:04.560And if anyone's watching or listening and has Jesus calling, please get rid of it, because it contradicts scripture.0.56
00:38:11.660And that's impossible if it was the real Jesus, because it's the same yesterday, today and forever.
00:38:30.120If you ever find the words coming out of your mouth, wanting more than the Bible, just go ahead, count backwards from 10, take a break, sit a play out, because you're out of line.
00:38:41.460So this is what we do, Doreen, typically on our shows.
00:39:07.400So real quick, as we end the episode, could you let our listeners know how they can follow you, your ministry, keep up with you and the things that you're doing?