00:00:00.440Applying God's Word to every aspect of life. This is Theology Applied.
00:00:11.360All right, welcome to another episode of Theology Applied with Right Response Ministries.
00:00:16.280I'm your host, Pastor Joel Webin. Today, I'm very honored and privileged to have two of my friends,
00:00:23.480just incredible men of God who have done a lot of great, courageous work for the church at large,
00:00:29.300standing up against some of the false ideologies and vain philosophies that keep creeping into
00:00:37.020the church. And sadly, even into good reformed churches. A lot of people I don't think are
00:00:44.020malicious. I think a lot of people on this particular subject are just being played.
00:00:48.280They're just being deceived that their sympathy and sentiment is getting the best of them. They
00:00:53.860just need to be properly educated and informed about what the Bible says in particular to the
00:00:59.260issue of social justice, racial reconciliation, identity politics, these kinds of topics,
00:01:08.340this big Trojan horse issue, and I think two of the leading voices on this subject, even
00:01:14.720if they were white, they'd be leading voices because their content is what matters. But
00:01:18.900two brothers, Daryl Harrison, Virgil Walker, can you guys introduce yourselves from the
00:01:24.140Just Thinking Podcast, Incredible Men of God. Yeah, I'll get started, man. Virgil Walker,
00:01:30.940I'm half of the dynamic duo known as the Just Thinking Podcast, Just Thinking Crew. I'm here
00:01:39.500in Omaha, Nebraska, excited to be a part of what's going on. Can't wait, Brother Joel,
00:01:45.400to have this conversation with you. And glad to be here with my main man, Daryl.
00:01:49.780daryl harrison uh the other half of the just thinking podcast which i co-host with my main
00:01:57.200man virgil walker i'm based here in southern california in the valencia area um day job
00:02:04.580is as dean of social media with grace to you uh and uh glad to be with you here once again joel's
00:02:11.100been a long time brother good to be with you yeah it's been a while the last time i think uh daryl
00:02:16.380It was, well, for both of you guys in person was at the at the Shepherds Conference.
00:02:21.780And it was right before all the craziness of COVID-19.
00:02:25.900And little did we know what 2020 would have in store for us.
00:02:29.360So in fact, in fact, it was right after that Shepcon and we got home that all of the shutdowns started taking place.
00:02:36.900That's right. Yeah. Our nation, our nation, especially California, where me and Daryl are, has been very much committed to to, you know,
00:02:45.180seeing a spider in the house and then going ahead and just let's just burn the whole house down
00:02:49.340to get that spider. So. All right. So before we hop into our topic, I just I got to bring it up0.78
00:02:56.440with you, Daryl, because you're a fellow California citizen in a state that greatly aspires
00:03:03.680to reach the likeness of other up and coming third world countries like like Venezuela or
00:03:11.360North Korea or China. What is it like for you, Derek? Because I know you're conservative. I know
00:03:16.580your politics. I've gleaned so much from you. What is it like having your views and living in
00:03:22.620California? What's that like? Yeah. California is different. Just so your viewers and listeners
00:03:29.060will know, let me give a little bit of background. I'm a native of Atlanta, Georgia.
00:03:34.300My wife and I, my wife Melissa and I, we relocated to Southern California in January of 2019
00:03:40.260to take an opportunity here to join the staff at Grace to You, which is the Bible teaching
00:03:47.160ministry of John MacArthur. And most of your viewers probably know that John MacArthur's
00:03:51.600church, Grace Community Church, is based here in Southern California. So my wife and I relocated
00:03:56.160from Atlanta to Valencia, California in January of 2019. So I've been here close to two years now.
00:04:03.580And I have to say that one of the things, there are many things that I'm still getting used to
00:04:09.820uh in this transition from georgia to california and one of those things is is just the political
00:04:16.540climate here uh the political climate here seems to me as an outsider uh having been here for for
00:04:24.140almost a couple years now the political climate here is such that uh long-term residents of the
00:04:29.740state, natives of the state, seem content to put up with and adjust to some of the most onerous,
00:04:45.040burdensome laws and regulations, all for the sake of being able to live in a state where the weather
00:04:51.720is nice every day. That's what it seems to me. I mean, some of the things I'm learning,
00:04:59.100you know, I've been able to vote in two elections now since I moved here in California. I've been
00:05:04.800able to vote in two elections here. And some of the things, the referendums and whatnot that you
00:05:10.280see on the balance, especially here in LA County, where I live, are just unbelievable. There was
00:05:19.040the cost of living here, the degree to which government basically runs or to a very great
00:05:32.480degree influences life here in this state. It seems to be, to me anyway, where most of the
00:05:40.740folks who live here, they just sort of put up with it. There's nothing that they won't
00:05:46.220push back on from the standpoint of government intrusion in exchange for the sun coming out
00:05:53.460every day as if the government had anything to do with the sun coming out every day.
00:05:58.120Right, right. Yeah, it's, man, the regulation, you know, it always seems like, you know, it's
00:06:04.540safety versus liberty, right? It seems like in order for a government to be able to take
00:06:10.540more individual liberty away from its citizens, there has to be some kind of trade that the
00:06:15.840citizens find attractive. They have to see the value. And it always seems like public safety
00:06:21.820becomes the bait for citizens to be willing to forfeit individual freedom, individual liberty.
00:06:28.480And so it's, I mean, you know, I grew up in Texas and at the end of this year, I'm taking,
00:06:34.780you know, leading a team of 20 people out of California, leaving our church to plant a new
00:06:39.340church and the Republic of Texas going back. And in Texas, you know, if you want to ride in the
00:06:44.520bed of a truck. Um, it's dangerous. Your safety is in jeopardy. Uh, but you have the freedom to
00:06:50.320be stupid, right? Like the government, the government's not reaching in when I'm taking1.00
00:06:54.340a shower to turn down the hot water. So I don't burn myself. You know, it's just get out of my
00:06:58.860bathroom, get out of my house, get out of my life and, and give me freedom. But I think when,
00:07:04.000if you can scare the populace, right. With some kind of, and that's why it seems like the
00:07:09.020democratic party, it's always some kind of threat, right. It's climate crisis. It's, it's COVID-19.
00:07:13.500There's always got to be some kind of threat to the public safety to where the people will say, we'll pay you in freedom for you to give us back and return our safety.
00:07:25.400And that trade, a lot of the country is not willing to make.
00:07:29.600But Californians, they just love to make that trade.
00:12:59.660Now what I want is I want to plant churches that preach law and gospel, that see people converted, that are discipled.
00:13:08.460The Great Commission will always forget this part, teaching them to obey all of Christ's commands.
00:13:12.760So I want to disciple people into all of Christ's commands, not just the red letter, but the whole Bible is Christ.
00:13:17.660You know, and so teaching them all of Christ's commands, and I want to see baptisms, I want to see conversion, but then I also want to see members of my church have the freedom to start families, start a business, run for local office, start a publishing company, start schools.
00:13:35.860I mean, you look at the Puritans, you look at church history, and one of the first things Christians did is that the beachhead was the church.
00:13:42.920You plant a church, and then immediately, immediately, you start a school.
00:13:47.660Right. And then you start some kind of printing press and then and you're starting businesses.
00:13:52.060And I think as Christians, we've just become content with just getting in the trenches and slugging it out.
00:14:00.460But I think we're content to just be behind enemy lines in the trenches, working towards conversion, snatching souls from the fire.
00:14:11.180And that's good gospel work. Praise God for that.
00:14:14.100But part of me feels like, man, if we were willing to just to not see it as quitting, but a tactical retreat for a generation or two, let California fall on its face because Christians are no longer propping it up, then send our grandkids back in to take over the land.
00:17:27.940the gospel is the message of causing trouble yeah it's an offense jesus's whole earthly ministry
00:17:35.520caused trouble and virginia matter of fact if i could just get this in here because i think it
00:17:42.840fits with the context of what we're talking about here joel um by the time this airs to your to your
00:17:48.200audience this episode will already be out but as we record this uh uh interview uh virginia are
00:17:54.400working on an episode of our next just thinking podcast it's going to be titled an exposition of
00:17:58.240biblical unity and i'm going to be bursting a lot of bubbles in that episode about what unity looks
00:18:04.940like and what unity does not look like and one of the things biblical unity does not look like
00:18:10.140is passivity right passivity and just sitting back on your lazy boy and letting the government
00:18:16.680dictate to you how you're supposed to live that's slavery yeah right and i think that's the problem
00:18:23.560when we talk about personal rights, there's, there's passive rights and there are active
00:18:28.060rights. And we, we've started thinking, you know, that there's a right to healthcare.
00:18:31.940There's a right to a university. There's a right to even, you know, universal housing,
00:18:37.560universal income where people become pets, you know, you're like, like, that's what a pet is a
00:18:42.220pet, you know, like doesn't have to produce. It doesn't have to work it. You know, you, you feed
00:18:46.020it, you take it to the vet and, you know, human beings aren't meant to be pets. And so, but when
00:18:50.000These active rights like health care, it sounds good, but what we don't realize is it takes that doctor and it says that his passive right, namely his property, his labor, his intelligence, his work doesn't belong to him anymore.
00:19:03.540It belongs to me. So my active right to health care takes away the passive right of the doctor to his own labor, to his own property, his intellectual property, his experience, all those things.
00:19:16.340And so I think as our generation becomes more and more entitled to those active rights, we see the freedom of those inalienable rights, human rights, the right to own property, the right to own your own labor, your own gifts.
00:19:34.240all that begins to erode. As entitlement rises, active rights begin to infringe upon passive
00:19:41.820rights, and the right of the collective begins to enslave the individual, and people just get
00:19:48.700stuck. And you can wrap it all in really flowery, good-sounding, generosity, biblical language.
00:19:56.740You can really, anytime somebody wants, I forget who said the quote, but he was like,
00:20:00.540anytime the culture adopts a new liberal principle, you can be sure that some liberal
00:20:06.720theologian will find a verse in the Bible for it. I'm tempted to name names, but I'm not going to
00:20:12.660do that. Just to say this real quick, when you talk about active rights taking priority or
00:20:23.220primacy over passive rights, see the Bible calls that stealing. That's right. The Bible calls that
00:20:28.420stealing. Okay. That's just another way of stealing. The word rights has done more damage
00:20:33.500to this country in the past 60 years, probably than any other word. Now, and you look at a state
00:20:39.740like California, California, generally speaking, in terms of mindset, they're proud here. They're
00:20:46.280proud to call themselves progressives. They are proud. They take a badge of honor when the
00:20:51.800government gets even more onerous and burdensome on your life. Think about that for a second.
00:20:56.960And Californians like to boast in the fact that we're progressive. We're leading the nation in forward thinking. We're visionaries. We're progressives in the way we think.
00:21:08.420And progressivism is defined in such a way as to find any avenue possible to apply someone else's or some group's active rights up against your passive rights so that your passive rights are overtaken, which makes you a slave to others' active rights.
00:21:32.400And here in California, that's the thing to be celebrated.
00:22:28.320and making sure that the next generation actually understands that all of,
00:22:33.400all that we have that is good, holy, right, just, and true comes from scripture. It ends up a moot
00:22:42.800point to do any such thing. And so I'm glad for ministries like yours, man, that wants to equip
00:22:48.720others to do the same. The second thing, as you guys were talking, I thought about a quote that
00:22:54.760I pulled up from Frederick Hayek, which he said this, and I know we're going to talk about social
00:22:59.800justice in a bit. He said, I'm certain that nothing, he says, quote, I'm certain that nothing
00:23:03.760has done so much to destroy the juridical, and that just means legal safeguards of individual
00:23:09.920freedom as a striving after this miracle of social justice. So, you know, I know you guys
00:23:16.280were talking about, you know, the government and its overreach, you know, in a number of different
00:23:24.160A lot of that is informed by their ideas around social justice, about righting wrongs on the basis of subjective opinion, people's subjective ideas, or groups that have an axe to grind.
00:23:38.500Whether it's liberals, leftists, whether it's the LGBTQ community or the like, they're wanting to establish justice on the basis of their subjective ideas.
00:23:50.880And so it's those kinds of things that begin encroaching themselves. They use the power of government because they know there's nothing transformative about, there's nothing inwardly transformative about their position. And so they have to use the power of government to enforce the kinds of rights that they're after.
00:24:07.180you're absolutely right it's it's funny marxism i mean really it all it's all about material
00:24:12.820everything's material everything you know it's it's so it's there's so much vanity um it's a
00:24:17.380zero-sum game wealth can't grow all you guys you guys know all that um but i've been thinking about
00:24:23.220it's like what's the easiest way to take somebody else's stuff because that's what marxism is all
00:24:27.560about i want your stuff it's all about stuff because stuff is the only thing that matters
00:24:30.840it's this godless worldview evolution everything's in there you know baked into the the whole thing
00:24:36.660And so if life is all about how much stuff I can get and I need to get your stuff, but
00:25:29.140All right, now, what can we look at and just group narratives?
00:25:32.600What can we easily indict this group that's got the stuff that we want? What can we indict them for? Well, if we just pan back 150 years, you know, and then we don't have to actually have to deal with individual people and their actions.
00:25:47.220And did they actually do something immoral? And so it's the whole group dynamic, group politics, identity politics, social justice.
00:25:56.580I really think a lot of it is it's just it's just a much more easy way of getting the stuff that we feel like we should have.
00:26:09.180Thomas Sowell in his book, The Quest for Cosmic Justice, said that envy used to be one of the seven deadly sins until it was reintroduced by his new name, social justice.
00:26:27.480The four-letter word envy, that is just much an accurate term to describe social justice.
00:26:32.900And, you know, what social justicians are doing, it's the old adage about how do you eat an elephant, right, Joel?
00:26:41.920You eat an elephant one piece at a time.
00:26:46.380And that's exactly what the social justicians are doing.
00:26:48.940Social justicians know that they have the right individuals in place in government to advance their agenda and get them ultimately to the goal that they want to reach.
00:27:02.900which is as you said taking stuff that belongs to someone else for themselves listen it was 40
00:27:09.860it was probably 48 hours after the election on november 3rd that black lives matter was already
00:27:17.380demanding of joe biden and kamala harris to come through with what what blm wants the government to
00:27:27.140to give them in return because of what BLM is claiming they were able to do to purportedly
00:27:34.160get Joe Biden and Kamala Harris this victory. And they did. In my assessment, I feel like
00:27:40.780what better incentive to give someone an election than the blackmail of, if you don't give us what
00:27:48.840we want, we'll throw a fit and burn some more buildings down. Here's the stupidity of that1.00
00:27:55.860kind of logic as it relates to BLN. Here's how stupid that is. See what BLN did, BLN pretty much1.00
00:28:01.560put their agenda on layaway. They said, okay, we're going to, they said to Joe Biden and Kamala
00:28:07.040Harris, all right, we're going to help you guys get into the White House. And in return, once you,
00:28:12.260when that happens, you will owe us this, this, this, this, this. But see, that's not how you
00:28:17.700negotiate. That's not how you negotiate. What they should have done was demand something from
00:28:24.840joe biden and kamal harris first and then once they come through once you pay me my ransom
00:28:30.760right then i respond right white house right that's not how that see black lives matters
00:28:38.880is in the same position as many black pastors were when barack obama was elected for his first
00:28:45.380term and his second term verge you may remember this not long after barack obama was uh inaugurated
00:29:48.700C.S. Lewis quote, desiring too little.
00:29:50.760It's it's you're settling for for so little. The Democratic Party is like we to have your allegiance, to have your vote, to have your loyalty.
00:29:59.880We don't have to we don't have to produce anything. Whereas Donald Trump, it's like, man, for him.
00:30:05.540I mean, I know it's small, but it's still remarkable to double the black vote.
00:30:09.720You know, he didn't you know, he Biden still appears to have, you know, he is allegedly, you know, president elect.
00:30:18.460And we'll see how those things happen in the courts and all that.
00:30:20.820And if he gets it and he gets it legally, he will be my president.0.81
00:30:24.280I'm not going to be that stuck up rat saying he's not my president.
00:30:28.020And I will pray for him and honor him in the ways that I can.
00:30:33.720But all that being said, my point is, I mean, Trump doubled the black vote in this election because he has to actually, he has to work for that.
00:30:43.560he had to prove jobs employment a higher quality of living all those kind of things whereas
00:30:48.640democratic um officials they they it's just they don't have to prove anything they don't have to
00:30:54.420actually prove with statistics that life is better that you stand to benefit and man it's
00:31:01.100but i think things are changing because i think a lot of a lot of guys like you i think the daily
00:31:07.780wire ben shapiro like i mean christian guys and then common grace examples who aren't even christian
00:31:13.220candace owens larry elder um the uncle tom documentary i'm sure you guys saw it like
00:31:18.380this there's so much so good content that keeps coming out coming out and everybody regardless
00:31:24.600of ethnicity everybody i think that if there's anything good that came out of this last election
00:31:30.040i think it's the exposure of the corruption in the mainstream media and and even some big tech
00:31:35.100problems and and all of a sudden i think these these alternative media sources like daily wire
00:31:41.540and the blaze and just thinking podcast and um people are actually giving us an ear but for the
00:31:47.900first time and and considering that that we actually might have something to say and i think
00:31:52.760i think liberals have overplayed their hand i think the tides are going to turn and i i feel hopeful
00:31:58.340i i i agree with you to an extent i i'm and i'm with you i think all of those people you've named
00:32:04.800And a lot of the, you know, everybody from Larry Elder to Candace Owen to the Shapiros, I think all of them have done a fantastic job of putting the message out and really explaining in simple terms what they're getting for their vote or what they're not getting for their vote.
00:32:24.820And so I think those kinds of things are helpful. A lot of a lot of black folks have been, quote, unquote, red pilled. Right. Brandon Tatum and others who are who have videos and things like that.
00:32:36.060One of the things that, and we love, I'm thankful for their work.
00:32:39.360I love the way you set that up by explaining these are the common grace gifts that God has established.
00:32:46.920At the end of the day, though, we have to realize, the people of God have to realize that the real answer, the true answer is not in politics, but it's in the gospel of Jesus Christ.
00:32:59.200And so while I'm thankful for Candace Owen, I'm more grateful and thankful for people like Allie Stuckey, because I think when she's out there expressing her positions about political issues, she's anchoring them in the truth of the word of God and expressing that the only true light that we have is the light of the gospel at the end of the day.
00:33:19.520So those are those are some I do think it is critically important for us to make those distinctions.
00:33:25.600Otherwise, you'd be like me, because back in the day, I used to do urban radio.
00:33:30.460And that's kind of how Daryl and I got connected. And, you know, I told him, man, one, you need to do a podcast.
00:33:35.860And two, I've done some radio. And, man, I think your voice needs to be out there.
00:33:39.740So we kind of partnered in that regard. But one of the things I did, Joel, is I spent a lot of time talking about conservatism.
00:33:49.180on the radio. And I was known as the Black conservative. I love the moniker. I thought
00:33:55.720that was cool. Yeah, lone Black guy, conservative, and all of that. But what I've realized over the
00:34:01.500course of time was what I began to amplify was conservatism above the cross of Christ.
00:34:06.840And so it's critically important to make that distinction. I think we have to be informed
00:34:12.480about the issues. And Daryl and I just did an episode about the doctrine of elections. And so
00:34:19.340it's critically important that we don't leave our doctrine at the doorstep, but that we're informed
00:34:24.080by doctrine and that we allow our mind to be informed and then to go into the voting booth
00:34:31.460and vote accordingly in the establishment of having righteous lawmakers, righteous politicians
00:35:48.880And so because God loves his own triune self, because God is a self-glorifying, self-adoring,
00:35:55.200self-loving God, he loves his law, loves his gospel, both manifest his own nature, his
00:36:00.160own perfections and character and stemming from god's law and his gospel we have the these these
00:36:06.900conservative views they stem from that the problem is that without the world view it's like it's like
00:36:13.960hanging a truth in midair that you know and and so what happens is that somebody you know even a
00:36:19.880blind squirrel can find an acorn every now and then and you know even even a broken clock can
00:36:24.920be right twice a day you know and and so what happens is that you you get some common grace
00:36:29.220examples who you know like king cyrus you know it's like why is he funding you know the people
00:36:35.840of israel to go back and so you you get those examples because god's sovereign he directs the
00:36:40.680heart of the king like waters in the way that he wants it to go but the problem is if it's just
00:36:44.880hanging in mid-air although all truth is god's truth if if god's truth is not ultimately grounded
00:36:51.220in in the ultimate truth of his gospel and his law and his his own nature then it can just one
00:36:58.100generation can borrow and then another another generation replaces it because because it's it's
00:37:03.980it's just hanging there and i think that's the problem is if we only win people to agree with
00:37:08.140you virgil if we only win people to conservatism for the sake of conservatism but we hang it in
00:37:14.440midair instead of grounding it in the triune god which makes it true then then the next generation
00:37:22.220I think that what we do is we teach our kids what what you should do what you but if we don't teach
00:37:28.500them why that they abandon the what because they don't have the reason and and that's that's how
00:37:35.000we so sadly you're so right that's so insightful because that's precisely how we got here that's
00:37:41.160how we that's why we took God out of our schools and we took God out of our nation we we thought
00:37:45.240we don't need the foundation to have the benefits we don't need the roots of the tree to eat these
00:37:50.920apples to have this fruit. And then all the fruit eventually dried up and it's gone. And now we're
00:37:56.240finding fruit again. And we want to just hang apples in the middle of the air without planting
00:38:00.480trees. And so even if we can win the populace to conservatism without giving them the why and
00:38:07.620grounding the gospel and the law, it'll only last for a generation. It won't be that deep,
00:38:13.900long, multi-generational work. You guys agree with that?
00:38:17.420Yeah, totally agree with you, Joel, there. And I think fundamental to what you and Virgil are saying here is that the church no longer preaches that we are aliens and strangers. The church no longer preaches that. The church no longer preaches that we are, as Christians, as believers, we are aliens and strangers here.
00:38:35.420So given that that's not part of our orthodoxy, it's not part of our orthopraxy, you don't hear that in pulpits anymore.
00:38:47.720So what we've done as a church, we've started to buy into this soteriology that the government has been selling.
00:38:53.540You see, we've got a bunch of blind squirrels. I'm glad you use that.
00:38:56.860we got a bunch of blind squirrels out of here out here who thinking because because they're
00:39:01.900their their their world view is so grounded in the world in their life their physical life here
00:39:07.480their physical existence here that's where their focus is yeah so we just have a bunch of blind
00:39:13.520squirrels out here willing to accept well if the government gives us an acorn here the government
00:39:18.740gives us an apple over here then i should be content with that you see but we're aliens and
00:39:23.960strangers this is what peterson saying if in second peter chapter of our first peter chapter
00:39:28.080two verse 11 beloved i urge you as aliens and strangers yeah that that little two-word
00:39:36.160preposition as that's stating a reality that's a definitive objective reality that's who you are
00:39:42.160that's who you are you are not people who though you live physically in america you it goes back
00:39:49.040what you were saying joel earlier we just have a low view of accepting uh less versus more so we
00:39:54.620accept these acorns because oh woe is me this is my existence in this life and you know i'll see
00:40:00.180god in eternity when i die no this this is this is not the mindset that god wants us living with
00:40:07.200but we're a bunch of blind squirrels just willing to accept a little acorn every now and then as i
00:40:12.080run into it and then as and the government knows this the government knows the government knows
00:40:18.380that we have a bunch of churches a bunch of professing christians out here who are just
00:40:23.480scared frightened to contend for the faith right that they know this this is why this is why governor
00:40:32.260newsom gavin newsom in california a governor whitmer in michigan and and in other states
00:40:38.940they know that they can just roll out these incremental edicts these fiats right and they
00:40:45.120know that the church the churches in these states and christians are just gonna cave to them we're
00:40:49.860just gonna genuflect to them we won't stand up we won't stand up in the face of what is objectively
00:40:57.020biblically evil right right we need we need to start doing that yeah i can only imagine uh in
00:41:04.200the time of daniel you know a 30-day edict can you can you just imagine that the worshipers of
00:41:10.320yahweh right the christians at that time say hey surely we should submit to the civil magistrate
00:41:16.520in fact it's only a 30-day edict you know and and certainly god will understand if we forego
00:41:22.360prayer for it's temporary you know and and it's and we and we listen to that and i'm being facetious
00:41:28.000but sometimes that kind of argumentation helps put things into perspective you know because because
00:41:32.840if you apply that right like that kind of language any any god-fearing christian would be like oh
00:41:37.500that's ridiculous and then i would say and help me see how it's different what would yeah but i
00:41:44.180think i think the diff the difference is and i i one i completely agree with you i think the problem
00:41:49.480is what daryl stated which is up front we're not we don't think of ourselves as as aliens and
00:41:55.020strangers number one number two we have no doctrine of suffering uh no doctrine of suffering
00:42:02.660And so as a result of not having a doctrine of suffering, we think that we are right in doing that which is righteous when government and society and the culture agrees with us, right?
00:42:15.240So if culture, society agrees with us and things are peaceful, then we're doing the right thing.
00:42:22.280When government, society, and culture is against us, we must have something wrong with our message.
00:42:27.720And so we've got to go fix our message, recalibrate the message, and then re-present it in the hope that we'll be liked by others.
00:42:49.600Well, let me ask you guys this because we're kind of getting short on time.
00:42:54.020This is the biggest question that I just wanted to make it really specific to the church and even more specific because most of our listeners are already going to be, you know, reformed, at least in their soteriology and Calvinistic and, you know, in our camp.
00:43:10.360And so I guess my question is this, the Reformed Church, it seems like for the last 10, 15 years, I'm a little bit younger.
00:43:18.580You guys probably saw this more than I did, you know, but I was still kind of watching as a young man, seeing what was going on.
00:43:25.560It seemed like with big conferences between, you know, Together for the Gospel and Gospel Coalition and guys like Piper and Desiring God and Ligonier, you know,
00:43:34.880and even just the friendship between guys like John MacArthur and R.C. Sproul.
00:43:39.280Lots of doctrinal distinctives, distinctions, I should say, differences, and yet a loving tenderness, a brotherly love, able to partner, doing all these things together.
00:43:50.180And so my question is, the Reformed Church seemingly has been able to bridge the gap on some big doctrinal issues such as continuationist versus cessationist.
00:44:02.380I mean, we know John MacArthur, I mean, New Testament prophecy, he's not going to say, yeah, I disagree.
00:44:08.760he's going to say, I think it's destroying the church. I think it's a big deal. And yet he loves
00:44:13.980John Piper. He's able, you know, so gifts of the spirit, baptism, credo, pedo, covenant theology
00:44:20.380versus dispensationalism, all these kinds of things, massive issues. And yet we can pack 20,000
00:44:27.380guys in a conference setting and singing hymns to the Lord and psalms and spiritual songs,
00:44:34.240like linking arms giving hugs and and we strongly disagree and it seems like in my just sitting here
00:44:42.680watching what's going on in my perspective it seems like the dividing line that the reformed
00:44:48.460church not just the church not just the culture but but that the reformed gospel loving church
00:44:54.560is not going to be able to get over is is the dividing line of social justice racial reconciliation
00:45:02.740creation, identity politics. And I guess I just want to put it to you guys. To me, it seems to
00:45:09.580communicate that this issue is bigger than baptism. It's bigger than confessionalism.
00:45:15.480It's bigger than covenant theology. It's bigger than gifts of the spirit. Because this is the
00:45:21.460one that we're not willing to link arms over. This is the dividing line. And I think it's a
00:45:25.940dividing line just to show my hand. I think it is a dividing line. I think it is bigger than those
00:45:30.680things. I guess my question is why? Why is this issue bigger than all those other doctrinal issues?
00:45:39.220Yeah, let me start, Joel, and then I'll let Virgil jump in here. I think a problem with
00:45:44.980reformed believers when it comes to this issue of social justice is that they're not, I think
00:45:53.620they've been caught off guard from where this thing, this whole issue came from. And what I
00:45:58.120mean by that? See, there's no Westminster Confession to go back to, to refer to when
00:46:02.160it comes to social justice, you see. There's no, there's no Beltic Confession to go back
00:46:09.040to. There's no, there are no Puritans, there are no social justice Puritans to go back
00:46:14.520to. See, social justice didn't come from a theological origin. It's Genesis, it's not
00:46:22.960theological it's cultural it's cultural and see this this has been my this has been my one issue
00:46:30.180with reformed believers is that they're so academic they're so academic in their theology
00:46:36.820their hands are so clean that they don't know how to go they don't know how to make the shift
00:46:41.920between a between a theological argument and defending or arguing against a cultural argument
00:46:47.440they don't know how to make that shift see virtually but we operate in both of those
00:46:52.140areas so so we're both reformed so we can sit here and have a a theological academic conversation
00:46:58.960with you or informed theology but we can also uh come back with an apologetic from a cultural
00:47:04.500standpoint because that's the that's that's the million which virgil and i grew up you see so
00:47:09.720so what so i can i can quote you just as easily martin luther king as i can john calvin okay but
00:47:16.680we we need reformed believers who can do that right we can cross those lines back and forth
00:47:21.360come back and forth and offer a biblically orthodox apologetic against what has a cultural
00:47:27.240origin. You see, this is why social justice is a dividing line, because reform people are so
00:47:35.880used to going back to, well, let's see what the Westminster said. Let's see what the Westminster
00:47:41.280said. But have you read Martin Luther King's papers from Crozier Theological Seminary?
00:47:46.420Have you read those papers? You see, I get that you've read Jonathan Edwards. I get that.
00:47:53.840But have you read James Cone? You see, have you read, I mean, read Cone. I don't mean go on Google
00:48:00.320and Google James Cone and then something pops up. Have you read James Cone? Have you read Martin
00:48:05.440Luther King? Have you read, did you know that in a paper at Crozier Theological Seminary in 1948
00:48:12.800that Martin Luther King, as a 19-year-old, said in black and white, wrote that I am a staunch
00:48:19.220proponent of the social gospel. In his own words, can you quote Martin Luther King in his own words
00:48:25.560and say, well, Martin Luther King was a social gospel proponent? And can you say, can you go
00:48:31.440back in current day right now and read and quote a Raphael Warnock, who was a successor to Ebony
00:48:38.180of Baptist Church where Dr. Marlou King preached and dissect and pick apart Warnock's Black
00:48:44.120liberation theology and bring it into a reformed theological construct. We don't have reformed
00:48:51.020believers who are prepared to do that. So that's why this issue seems so, listen, social justice,
00:48:56.040and John McArthur has said this, and I think he's absolutely right. He agrees exactly with what you
00:48:59.720just said, Joel. John McArthur has said that social justice is the most important issue the
00:49:05.460church has ever faced yeah that's that's because because as i said earlier we have such a misplaced
00:49:13.160sociology that our so our our doctrine of salvation is rooted in our life here on earth right
00:49:19.620not not not with god in heaven later our reward is in heaven first people one makes that clear
00:49:27.240So we have a, in 1 Peter 1, 5, he says, we have an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you.
00:49:42.100You see, we're trying to get that reward here.
00:49:45.420You see, so again, I think a big problem within the Reformed theology is that we have believers who are so academic in their theological worldview,
00:49:55.860they don't want to get their hands dirty.