The NXR Podcast - THEOLOGY APPLIED - The Growing Division Over Christian Nationalism ｜ with William Wolfe

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00:00:18 All right, welcome back to another episode of Theology Applied. I am your host,

00:00:21 Pastor Joel Webbin with Right Response Ministries, and I am very privileged to

00:00:25 invite to this particular episode, William Wolfe. William Wolfe, some of you guys, you might

00:00:31 recognize him from the Twitterverse, the Twitter streets going and owning the libs on a 24 seven

00:00:36 basis. That's how I first kind of came across him. But also I'm on a thread with him and John

00:00:41 Harris and AD and some other guys. And just, it's just been great to just converse with like-minded

00:00:47 guys. He's notable for a few things. He's writing for the Freedom Foundation. He's doing multiple

00:00:53 different things. He's working on his MDiv right now. But prior to all these kind of ministry

00:00:59 endeavors, one of the things that he was doing that's unique is he worked in the Trump administration

00:01:04 for all four years of Trump's presidency. And so he's been in DC and has tried his hand in politics

00:01:11 and found a lot of success in that arena. And so as we're trying to really live out this mantra

00:01:18 of all of Christ for all of life and reclaiming institutions and want to see Christian men not

00:01:22 just be pastors. Some of you may be called to be pastors, but we need Christian men starting

00:01:27 businesses. We need Christian men being doctors. We need a parallel economy. We need parallel

00:01:32 medical practices because right now we can't trust the CDC or anybody else. But we also need

00:01:37 Christian men in politics. And William is one of those guys. And so we talk about a bunch of stuff

00:01:43 on this episode, but one of the things that I have him do is share his testimony and practically

00:01:47 kind of just his story, step-by-step, how he got involved in politics at a very high level

00:01:52 as a strong convicted Christian. And so for any of you guys who may be interested, I think you

00:01:58 might find this conversation particularly helpful, especially for those of you who feel called to the

00:02:03 realm of being a ferocious, courageous Christian in politics. Tune in now. All right, all right,

00:02:10 all right. Stop twisting my arm. I know you want to hear the inside scoop. Here it is,

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00:05:17 Applying God's word to every aspect of life.

00:05:20 This is Theology Applied.

00:05:26 All right, welcome back to another episode of Theology Applied.

00:05:29 I am your host, Pastor Joel Webin with Right Response Ministries.

00:05:32 And in this episode, I'm very privileged to invite onto the show, William Wolfe.

00:05:38 William, thank you for joining us.

00:05:40 Thanks for having me, Joel.

00:05:41 It's a pleasure to be here with you.

00:05:43 All right.

00:05:43 So tell some of our listeners a little bit about yourself, because I think most people,

00:05:48 or at least me, maybe I'm an outlier, but most people, I think if they're familiar with you

00:05:53 and some of your work, it would be your trolling work on Twitter.

00:05:57 you know like that might be their only exposure to you that was my first exposure and i'm starting

00:06:02 to get to know you offline and you know in a in a chat that you and i are part of with some other

00:06:06 faithful guys um but but beyond that i just saw you on twitter and i was like you know i guess

00:06:11 i guess he's just a professional christian nationalist twitter guy you know just owning

00:06:15 libs uh but but obviously there's more to you than that so give us a little bit of your story

00:06:20 your testimony you know and and who who are you what do you do yeah well thanks for helping me

00:06:27 uh, set that, uh, I guess straight a little bit, but sure. That's fun too. Uh, let's see. Oh man,

00:06:34 I'm a, I'm a father. I've been married for eight years. I mean, so I'm a father, I'm a husband,

00:06:38 husband and father been married for eight years. I got three boys. Uh, the third is due any day

00:06:43 now. Awesome. So we're on high alert here at the Wolf household. Uh, my oldest son,

00:06:48 Evan is four and a half. My middle son, Jack is two and a half. And we're about to add another

00:06:52 one into the mix. So really thankful God's blessed me with a wonderful family. I live

00:06:58 currently in Louisville, Kentucky as I'm finishing my Master's of Divinity here at the Southern

00:07:03 Baptist Theological Seminary, but obviously I'm here in my personal capacity. I was an online

00:07:09 student for a while as I was working in Washington, D.C., but after I finished my time working

00:07:14 in the Trump administration, which capped off about a 10-year run of working in politics

00:07:18 in DC. And then I did a pastoral internship at my home church there. And then I thought,

00:07:24 you know what, now's a good time to come to seminary and get some focused training. This

00:07:29 was after, you know, 10 years spent in the real world working, you know, raising a family,

00:07:34 working multiple jobs. I was, along with working in politics, I was like a resident manager for

00:07:38 my apartment building, you know, things like that. So I thought this was a good time to get

00:07:43 some concentrated training before the kids got older and to explore doing things like a PhD.

00:07:49 So hopefully, Lord willing, the fall goes according to plan. I will finish my MDiv here this

00:07:54 December. And I also write, I write regularly. So the Twitter really, Joel, was, I got on Twitter

00:08:00 as a way to get my writing out there, right? Like you write something for a website and it just sits

00:08:05 on the website. You've got to get on social media and promote it. So I write regularly for the

00:08:09 Freedom Center out of Liberty University and do some other writing as well. Do some work with

00:08:13 Center for Renewing America, et cetera. Awesome. And so going to seminary and then

00:08:19 maybe working on a PhD. First, so you're Baptist. Are you a Baptist who is a Baptist Baptist or are 0.99

00:08:27 you a pre-Presbyterian Baptist? I'm a post-Presbyterian Baptist.

00:08:32 Oh, really? Tell me, tell me.

00:08:33 Yeah, yeah. I was raised Presbyterian. So I'm never going back, man.

00:08:37 And my man, I love my folks, so thankful to them.

00:08:42 Every time I get a chance to do anything like this, I just love to honor my father and mother by thanking them for how they raised me.

00:08:49 My mom and my dad both did not grow up in Christian households, but by God's grace, they came to saving faith later in life.

00:08:55 And so they didn't come from a rooted Christian tradition.

00:08:58 When they moved to North Carolina, when I was young, they ended up joining primarily a Presbyterian church, a PCA church.

00:09:05 They were there. That's where I grew up was at a PCA church. I went to a PCA college, covenant

00:09:09 college. And during all that time, I, you know, I never was really serious. I wasn't a Christian,

00:09:14 actually. I wasn't serious about my faith because I didn't have any. I became a Christian after

00:09:18 college. And as I became a Christian in a setting of a local Baptist church, they wanted me to be

00:09:25 baptized as a believer for membership. And of course I didn't have any hesitancy with that.

00:09:30 I think that's pretty clear in scripture, you know, baptize, be baptized upon your profession

00:09:34 of faith if you've never made one before. And then just over time, I've definitely become

00:09:40 convictionally Credo Baptist. Gotcha. All right. Well, just so you know where I'm at, I am 1689, 0.72

00:09:47 so I am Credo Baptist. Cheers. Cheers. It's coffee. But I usually upset my Baptist brothers

00:09:53 and sisters. That's something you should probably know about me because- Hey, me too.

00:09:56 Because I know, well, I just, I preach very, very strongly that, you know, I think the new covenant

00:10:03 is, um, it's not just wider, but it's better. It's not just, uh, uh, you know, larger in its

00:10:08 scope, but deeper in its promises. And one of the best things about the new covenant is it has a

00:10:12 100% retention rate. And so I believe that the door into the new covenant is faith. Um, I do

00:10:18 believe I see the continuity between circumcision under the old covenant and baptism, but I would

00:10:23 say just as circumcision followed physical birth, baptism follows new birth. And so I'm, I'm Baptist

00:10:29 and all the ways that you would be Baptist, 100% taking no exception to the 1689,

00:10:33 so I'm confessionally Reformed Baptist, but I also would hold to covenant succession.

00:10:40 And that's where I upset my Baptist brothers in the sense that, you know,

00:10:43 the definition of covenant succession is the eager expectation, not presumption,

00:10:47 not viewing it as a guarantee, but an eager expectation for the salvation of our households,

00:10:52 our children, by virtue of not covenant nature, but covenant nurture.

00:10:57 And so for me, what I always tell people is I'm a Calvinist, I hold to the tulip and the doctrines of grace, but unconditional election in a lot of Baptist circles essentially gets interpreted as unconditional election is arbitrary election.

00:11:11 And I want to hold it not severing the means of grace from the ends of grace that God, when he predestines the end of salvation of an individual, he brings it about by certain means.

00:11:23 And so if our homes are gospel saturated, if we are leading family worship in our homes, taking our children, and I'm a family integrated guy, taking our children to the Lord's Day, gathering of the saints, all these kinds of things, then there's no way that we can work the God of the universe into our back pocket, into our debt.

00:11:40 But I do believe that we should expect that God is working in our parenting, administering all these means of grace because he actually he's he's doing this predestinated work because he actually has determined his predestinated ends of saving our children.

00:11:56 And then I would add, you know, the second piece to my argument would be the post-millennial piece that, you know, Jesus says, you know, from now on in one household, two will be against three and three against two.

00:12:05 I'm going to separate father from son. 0.91

00:12:07 And I would say, yeah, that is absolutely what happened in the first century Jewish context. 0.99

00:12:12 But with 11 working through the batch of dough for 2000 years now and the mustard seed growing into a tree and the stone cut by no human hands, you know, crushing the kingdoms of this world and growing into a mountain that fills the whole earth. 0.98

00:12:25 I think we should be a little bit more expectant.

00:12:27 So I believe that it's normative, not guaranteed, and certainly not the product of our parenting

00:12:32 to where we could earn God's grace for our children.

00:12:35 But that God works through means, means of grace, ends of grace are not severed.

00:12:39 And with the post-millennial hope, I think that, you know, Baptist parents, when they're

00:12:43 faithful, should expect that God will not merely save some, but that he would save all

00:12:48 of their children.

00:12:49 And this is not guaranteed, but it's God's ordinary practice.

00:12:51 And I think a lot of Baptists don't like that because they need something to assuage their

00:12:56 guilty consciences for the fact that all their kids grew up and became apostate, which I think

00:13:01 has something to do not with unconditional election, but with the public school system

00:13:04 that they put their kids in and blah, blah, blah. So other than that, I'm as Baptist as they come.

00:13:10 Yeah. Well, I mean, yes and amen to everything you said. I put it like this, and this also

00:13:16 upsets some people, but I say that I don't believe my kids are Christians, but my kids

00:13:20 are in a Christian family. My kids are certainly growing up in a Christian household. And I think

00:13:24 we can use the term Christian to define things and describe things that are not themselves

00:13:30 regenerate. So that's a live conversation within our Baptist circles. Can we use the denominator

00:13:37 Christian to refer to something, a nation, a family that's not regenerate? I will not concede

00:13:42 for a second that I am not leading a Christian family. I certainly intend to lead a Christian

00:13:46 family. I read the Bible with my children every day. We pray, we ask the Lord for salvation and

00:13:52 grace and for wisdom. Uh, this, my, my boys are going to know that they grow up in a Christian

00:13:56 family and I'm going to show them hopefully Lord willing the way to salvation in the scriptures

00:14:01 through Jesus Christ. So now where I make Baptists particularly upset is, and where I think

00:14:06 what you're describing has gone wrong is Baptists in the 20th century have drifted away from,

00:14:14 I think a serious investigation of saving faith in the life of children before just dunking them

00:14:20 and calling them good and then just letting them go. And I think that has been irresponsible. It's

00:14:28 given a lot of youth who have grown up in Baptistic homes, a false assurance of salvation.

00:14:33 And so we don't necessarily have to have a debate about the age of baptism, but there is a massive

00:14:40 irresponsibility in the way that many Baptist churches administer baptism and things like

00:14:45 fill the tank Sundays where they're running after numbers. I think that plays into the problem that

00:14:51 you're addressing. Yeah, no, you're absolutely right. And I think it's, you can fail on,

00:14:56 you can fall off of either side of the horse. So one is the false assurance where you're baptizing

00:15:00 a child that has a, you know, a profession of faith, but there's not actually fruit of faith

00:15:05 in their life. Um, but the other side is, I think you can, uh, you can build, um, a culture of doubt,

00:15:12 um, within your church, uh, even for the adults. Um, but, but, you know, especially the children

00:15:18 where you're constantly, you're not, you're not discipling, um, them up into faith, but you're

00:15:24 actually, um, reassuring them that they don't belong. Um, you know, and so, so like, even the

00:15:29 fact that like in a lot of Baptist churches, you know, uh, children don't go to church. They

00:15:33 literally go to a separate building or at least a separate room which is christian child care but

00:15:38 it's not the church uh has certain criteria for it is a church isn't just a place or it's it's

00:15:44 the lord's day gathering of the saints uh for the the administration of the ordinary means of grace

00:15:50 publicly preaching the words uh praying the words singing the word and seeing the word in the

00:15:54 sacraments of the lord's supper and baptism and there's a lot of kids they've never even seen the

00:15:59 Lord's Supper. And then there's something profound about the plate passing them by when they're four

00:16:04 years old or something, you know. But they've never even seen the plate. They've never even

00:16:08 seen a baptism. They've never sat through a sermon, any of these things. So children don't

00:16:13 even go to church with their parents. They don't go to Christian school and they're not homeschooled.

00:16:16 They go to a state school that teaches public atheism. And there's all these different metrics

00:16:22 that I think that lends towards apostasy. False assurance can lend towards apostasy,

00:16:28 discipling a culture of doubt in our children where, you know, you don't belong, those kinds

00:16:33 of things. But I think the language that you just put your finger on is so helpful that like

00:16:37 my girls, I've got three girls and now one son, but it's always, you know, we do family worship

00:16:43 in the morning and every evening. And it's always, we are a Christian family. And when I'm leading

00:16:48 family worship, you know, I say, Christian, what do you believe? You know, and my four-year-old

00:16:52 and my my three-year-old know the apostles creed by heart and we believe in god the father almighty

00:16:58 you know creative heaven and earth um and then and then i i pronounce you know an assurance of

00:17:02 pardon and i say insofar as you believe um you have been forgiven of all your sin and because

00:17:08 i don't know when god's going to regenerate their heart or particularly where that happens and so

00:17:12 anyways has already exactly exactly and so but yeah we are a christian family i like what chuck

00:17:18 knocks one of my friends with cross politic he says uh one of the ways that you know that you're

00:17:22 Christian families. He said, you may not believe that, but Muslims do. If a terrorist, extreme 0.86

00:17:30 Muslim came into your home, they wouldn't spare your children's lives. They'd kill the whole 1.00

00:17:35 family. They'd kill the kids too. These are Christian kids. Well, I mean, I love that even 1.00

00:17:41 there, you're talking about serious church practices, regulative principle passed down

00:17:46 the Reformation, see, hear, sing, pray, the word. And it just had me thinking that for so many

00:17:55 decades, so many churches and Christian families have assumed that playing red light, green light

00:18:02 and having a pizza party is what's going to help inoculate their children against secular

00:18:08 indoctrination. And that's just not going to cut it. At a certain age, you've got to get your kids

00:18:15 in church with you to hear God's word expounded and the Holy Spirit apply it to their lives and

00:18:20 their hearts, Lord willing. Amen. I think also with that, and this kind of can lead into some

00:18:24 more conversation and particularly the things that I wanted to have you on the show for, but

00:18:28 I think also making it clear for your kids at a young age, what side are we on, right? So like

00:18:34 when you're just Mr. Winsomey about every single issue, right? When Roe gets overturned and you go

00:18:41 to a church that is biblically conservative and has been preaching against abortion for 49 years

00:18:46 and then rose overturned in the providence and mercy of god and your pastor doesn't say a single

00:18:51 word right and it's just like let's just be quiet and and some guys in the church actually are

00:18:57 outspoken but you hear through the grapevine that they've actually been corrected by the elders

00:19:01 uh that they need to tone it down now it's not the time for beating our chest you know and

00:19:05 And then BLM happens, you know, and, and, and your parents are at a BLM rally and COVID happens and, and you're, you're regular principal guys, right? You're, you're church men. But you shut down for four months, you know, and, and, and MacArthur opens up his church and you actually criticize him publicly, you know, for it.

00:19:24 And those kinds of things, your kids, I think if you're too winsome and you're too friendly in the name of evangelism with the world, then I think that's another thing is like kids, they grew up in state schools.

00:19:36 They grew up with youth group, you know, that's just a pizza party and there's no preaching.

00:19:41 But then also their parents and their pastors and their church members, what they modeled for them, if anything, is friendship with the world.

00:19:51 What do you think?

00:19:52 Yeah, that's a good way to put it.

00:19:53 No, I mean, that's a good way to sum it up.

00:19:57 What are we as parents modeling in terms of which side we're on, right?

00:20:01 Are we friends with the world or are we at odds with the world?

00:20:05 Because the world is certainly at odds with us, right?

00:20:08 And we want to love the world, obviously.

00:20:10 We want to model faithful evangelism.

00:20:12 We want to show into our children how we love sinners, just like how Christ loved us.

00:20:18 But yeah, I mean, it's like, which side are we on here?

00:20:22 You know, it's I've gotten pretty radicalized on the COVID stuff.

00:20:26 And in many ways, it's driven by a retrospective assessment of even some of my, I think, failings as a parent in terms of when I let a mask be put on my son, you know, in certain situations at like three years old.

00:20:41 And I look back on that.

00:20:43 I'm like, that was a mistake.

00:20:44 I should not have done that.

00:20:45 And I will never do that again. And I will never allow my family to be in a situation where somebody is telling me to put a mask on my children when they're not at risk for anything because it teaches them something about what's going on in the world. So yeah, I agree with that entirely. Which side are we on and how do we fly those flags?

00:21:07 Right. Amen. And letting kids know, even at a young age, I mean, there are certain things that are age appropriate. So I'm not saying that there's every, you know, every single detail that we're aware of our children should be aware of, but, but our children should be aware that we're at war. I don't think that you wait till a child is 18 years old to tell them, oh, by the way, we're in a war and, and the world hates us because they hated, they hated Jesus. And like, so like very early on, you know, my four year old and my three year old are very aware that, that there are people that hate us.

00:21:37 and people that hate daddy um and you know and we have to be careful with church and things like

00:21:42 that you know i've had you know with just getting in trouble online and going viral for you know for

00:21:47 all the right reasons but but you know the optics look like all the wrong reasons and you know and

00:21:52 people wanting to protest and those kinds of things and so you know the kids are very aware

00:21:56 of that and you know and we'll go and we'll preach you know at the courthouse and things like that

00:22:00 you know when row dropped we knew like that that night you know um that there would be a bunch of

00:22:05 liberals showing up at the courthouse protesting. And so we gathered everybody in our church. We

00:22:09 had twice the number that they had. We sang, you know, hymns and Psalms. And I preached and told

00:22:15 them that they're murderers and that they need to repent and believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ for

00:22:19 their murder and advocation for murder. And my kids hear that and they know that. And I explained

00:22:23 to them on our way there, you know, that we're going because we love Jesus and because we love

00:22:27 babies. But there are people that hate Jesus and hate babies and they love to murder babies. They 0.88

00:22:32 love the blood of babies. And they're going to be there. Those people who love killing babies

00:22:36 are going to be there. And, and we love those people. We want those people to repent. But dad 0.99

00:22:41 is going to preach against them because they are not on our side. But our hope is that they would

00:22:46 be, you know, like, and my little four-year-old and three-year-old understand that. And that's

00:22:50 something that I guess what I'm saying is it's not something that I even, even if I wanted to

00:22:54 choose the option, I couldn't shelter them from it, even if I wanted, because daddy's going to

00:22:58 be involved. I think a lot of parents are able to shelter their kids from, from certain culture war

00:23:03 issues because they themselves as the parents are involved in the culture war. You have to explain

00:23:08 to your four-year-old and three-year-old, if you and mom are driving the minivan to the courthouse

00:23:12 to preach against abortion, you've got it. You know what I mean? Like the kids are now a part

00:23:16 of this. Um, but, but a lot of Christians have, they don't even have, uh, they don't even, they 0.98

00:23:22 don't even have a living memory of that kind of, they've never done it. Right. So, so when they're 0.92

00:23:26 like you told your three-year-old that yeah that's because the family was involved in this 0.95

00:23:30 you don't have to tell your three-year-old that because you're a coward and you don't do these

00:23:33 things you know so i don't know what do you think about that any further thoughts on this issue

00:23:38 no i think that's great i think it's a good example brother cool all right so give our

00:23:43 listeners some of your um i i just want to hear a little bit and i think our listeners would too

00:23:47 working with the trump administration in dc on the ground uh like you're from what i can tell

00:23:54 like you're pretty successful and decorated within the realm of politics for a 34 year old,

00:24:01 you know, young man. And I just think that's awesome. We need Christians involved. Every,

00:24:04 every dude wants to be a pastor and I'm telling him, why don't you start a million dollar business?

00:24:09 Why don't you be an artist? Why don't you get involved in politics? And you've done it.

00:24:13 And I'd love just to hear about it. Yeah. Well, God's, God's grace and favor was

00:24:19 certainly upon me and my efforts. And it was a team effort, everything I did in DC. I was lost

00:24:29 and hopeless and helpless in the world about six months after one of my younger brothers had passed

00:24:36 away. And when he was 15 and I was 22, and I wasn't a Christian at the time, and it really

00:24:42 sent me into a spiral. And by God's grace, I met Mark Dever, the pastor at Capitol Hill Baptist

00:24:47 church and through his witness became a Christian. The Lord just threw open doors for me to move to

00:24:52 D.C. So again, I can't take any credit. I wouldn't have gone there on my own. But then I ended up

00:24:58 moving to D.C. and joining that church and I needed to work, right? I had student loans that

00:25:02 needed to be repaid and bills to be paid. And so what I did first was I just got whatever job I

00:25:11 could, which was waiting tables at P.F. Chang's. And so that was the first thing I did when I got

00:25:15 to D.C. Which is not a bad job. P.F. Chang's waiters, you can pull some cash. Yeah, it's a

00:25:21 life sustainability job. So what that enabled me to do, and we were talking before we started

00:25:26 recording about maybe even some tips for young men who are looking to do similar things. So

00:25:30 if you want to work in politics in D.C., you move to the Hill. I mean, these days,

00:25:34 things are a little different. I think they do pay interns now, but back then we were unpaid,

00:25:38 right? So I got what was called the life sustainability job that put money in my bank

00:25:42 account and allowed me to outlast the other people who had like a fixed income and were

00:25:47 trying to score a job in like six weeks.

00:25:49 And so I took an unpaid internship.

00:25:51 You know, I did something that I don't think you typically do around Capitol Hill, but

00:25:55 I put on a suit and tie and printed off my resume and just walked into the Capitol buildings

00:26:01 and went to the offices of members of Congress from North Carolina, which is where I grew

00:26:05 up, literally just walked in their office and dropped off my resume and said, hey, I'm

00:26:09 William Wolfe.

00:26:09 I'm from North Carolina.

00:26:10 Now I'm here in DC and I would like a job.

00:26:12 And I don't think that's what you normally do, but it worked.

00:26:15 And I ended up getting an unpaid internship with a member of Congress from North Carolina

00:26:19 and then hustled, you know, during that.

00:26:22 You know, I can definitely, I can remember there being, obviously, we all can struggle

00:26:25 with pride.

00:26:26 I certainly struggle with pride.

00:26:27 You know, I can remember nights when I'm at P.F.

00:26:29 Chang's, like, wiping rice off the table.

00:26:31 I'm like, I have a history degree. 1.00

00:26:32 I'm a college grad.

00:26:33 Like, I'm an unpaid intern and I'm waiting tables.

00:26:35 Like, what am I doing?

00:26:36 But when I approached my work in D.C., it was really with a mentality of nothing is beneath

00:26:41 me.

00:26:42 And if I act like it is, then I'm not going to have a chance of success here.

00:26:47 So I was an intern.

00:26:48 I busted my tail.

00:26:49 I helped where I could.

00:26:50 I delivered potted plants around the Capitol for the members of Congress.

00:26:55 And by making connections, by God's grace, you get to compete for full-time positions

00:27:00 when you see them posted.

00:27:01 And I got a job as a legislative correspondent in a congressional office for a guy from North

00:27:05 Dakota.

00:27:06 And the job of a legislative correspondent is to answer constituent mail.

00:27:10 Do you know what type of people are the ones who ride into members of Congress?

00:27:13 It's not the happy ones.

00:27:15 And so, yeah.

00:27:16 So I got a chance to really see, quite frankly, and I really appreciate this, the frustrations

00:27:20 of Americans and the way that the issues that really were plaguing the people who would

00:27:26 take the time to speak to the members of Congress.

00:27:29 So I worked for that guy.

00:27:29 Then I went back and worked for that first member I interned for for a couple of years.

00:27:33 And it really just impressed upon me that some of the biggest issues facing our country

00:27:37 were issues pertaining to our immigration system.

00:27:40 issue pertaining to economic opportunities, particularly in areas that have been hit the

00:27:45 hardest by globalization, by global trade deals. I grew up in North Carolina. Obviously,

00:27:49 the textile industry has been completely wiped out with the rise of China, imports from China,

00:27:56 NAFTA, et cetera. So those were really impressed upon me. And so when Donald Trump came down that 0.99

00:28:02 escalator in 2015, at that point in time, I was working for a guy named Representative Dave Bratt,

00:28:08 who ran in Virginia and beat the number two Republican in a surprise upset primary than

00:28:16 Eric Cantor. And David Bratt, he was a college professor of economics and he ran on a campaign

00:28:22 essentially of we need immigration restriction that respects who we are as a people here in

00:28:27 the United States and we need trade deals that benefit us. It was kind of like a mini pre-Trump

00:28:32 campaign in the 7th District of Virginia that was successful for him. So when I was working for him

00:28:38 is when Trump announced his run. And I was like, oh man, I think this guy might go all the way.

00:28:42 And I was one of the very few people in DC during that whole time who was pretty confident Trump

00:28:47 would win. And so after working for Congressman Bratt, then I had a chance to work at the Heritage

00:28:52 Action, which is the sort of political arm of the Heritage Foundation, big think tank there in DC.

00:28:58 And then had a chance to volunteer on the presidential transition organization,

00:29:03 again, just sort of hustling, taking an opportunity to kind of volunteer to get a

00:29:06 chance to get my foot in the door because at that point in time, you know, this is now early end of

00:29:11 2016, early 2017. I was like, this is my shot to work in an administration. And I believed in what

00:29:17 Trump said he was going to do. You know, so many people got so twisted up in knots about Donald

00:29:21 Trump. You know, I put that fact that I work for Trump in my Twitter bio because I want people to

00:29:26 know I'm not ashamed of it for a second. I served on behalf of the American people and I served the

00:29:31 duly elected American president who ran on a platform of, I would argue, caring for your

00:29:38 average American. And I believed in that and I believed him. Well, he ran on that platform,

00:29:45 but then he actually governed even more conservatively than he ran. You typically

00:29:49 expect a guy like George Bush, maybe ran at an eight and governed at a six, if 10 is true blue

00:29:59 conservative, you know? And so like ran at an eight, governed as a six. And Trump, I feel like

00:30:03 ran at like a 6.57 and governed at like a nine, you know? And it was like, whoa, this guy, like

00:30:09 he became a hero, you know? It's like, okay, there's some mean tweets, you know, but William

00:30:13 Wolf has some mean tweets too. So, you know, but like, you know, but like, but this guy in terms

00:30:18 of his policy and all these kinds of things, I mean, he was one of the most conservative presidents

00:30:22 we've had in a very long time. So. Yeah, no doubt. And, you know, this isn't, this is really

00:30:27 The Trump run in 2016 really awakened my interest in Christian ethics because I just was really struggling to see how so many people that I otherwise respected were engaging what I thought was pretty horrific moral reasoning as they were justifying things like voting for Hillary Clinton.

00:30:47 I mean, look, I could understand if you sat the 2016 election out because you had concerns about Trump. And look, I'm not sure if Trump was personally pro-life, but Trump said he was going to govern as if he was pro-life. And he did exactly what he said he was going to do.

00:31:02 And now Roe v. Wade is overturned. And so watching figures that I would have respected or characters that I would have thought represented my interests, doing things like arguing for voting for Hillary Clinton, I was like, wait a minute, something is not right in the world of evangelical Christian ethics and how we're doing moral reasoning here. And this is important.

00:31:22 And so that was really a rock that was put in my shoe as I got into the Trump administration

00:31:26 and something that I watched through all my time in the Trump administration.

00:31:30 And as I got out of it, I thought, you know what, I'd like to study this a little bit

00:31:34 more closely and sort of hopefully potentially credential myself to speak to these issues,

00:31:40 help teach and train and help other pastors and Christians, you know, folks in the pews

00:31:45 think about the trickiest political issues facing us as Christians in this country.

00:31:49 Amen.

00:31:50 Yeah, I mean, it's funny, you know, like, so you're sitting there watching.

00:31:52 that as you're, you know, working in DC, working in the political sphere. And for me, like at the

00:31:59 time I was pastoring in Southern California, but I was an Acts 29 pastor. So we had entered into,

00:32:06 I started actually as a vineyard pastor. So it was a quite the evolution theologically, but

00:32:09 started as a vineyard pastor. Were you an Anglo seven in the Acts 29 world? 0.87

00:32:15 You would have to explain that. No. I'm sorry. It's a Matt Chandler joke about 0.92

00:32:21 angle. Nevermind. If it's a Matt Chandler joke about anything Anglo, I can only imagine it's

00:32:28 something about hating yourself for being white. A little bit. Yeah. That's, that's what I would 0.98

00:32:32 expect from Chandler. So we left in the end of 2018, I pulled the church out and I had been

00:32:37 pretty outspoken against Eric Mason and his woke church book. And just, you know, every single

00:32:43 conference was social justice, social justice, you know, feel bad for being white. But my point

00:32:48 is like, uh, during the election, um, what you're describing, you know, your experience watching

00:32:52 people, you know, who you respected and people that, that, you know, you deemed as being mature

00:32:57 brothers, you know, sisters in Christ making, actually making an argument, trying to make a

00:33:02 theological argument for assuaging the conscience to vote for Hillary. Um, I was watching that with

00:33:07 Acts 29 pastors, you know, guys who I thought were, were solid in many ways. And then, you know,

00:33:13 them making arguments and Thabiti was one of them. Thabiti in a while, he wasn't X29, but he was one

00:33:18 of our plenary speakers at, at our, our, our large, you know, um, national conferences and

00:33:24 things like that. And I remember him, you know, with Matt Chandler, it was a podcast with Matt

00:33:28 Chandler and talking about like, um, well, yeah, she's for abortion. And then, you know, he made

00:33:33 the, the, the crappy argument of just, uh, well, you know, um, the sanctity of human life is

00:33:39 certainly near and dear to the heart of God, but God's got a really big heart, you know,

00:33:43 and there are other issues. And then, you know, he proceeds to list issues. Um, but the problem

00:33:47 is that none of these issues, uh, God didn't, um, God didn't institute the state to, to deal

00:33:53 with these issues. So he starts talking about welfare and, and poverty and, um, immigrants 0.57

00:33:58 and stuff. And it's just like affordable healthcare. Yeah, exactly. And it's like,

00:34:01 but that's not what the, that's not what God instituted the state to do. And so, and number

00:34:06 For one, it's a false dichotomy because that's not the state's job.

00:34:08 It is the state's job to protect life and to punish murderers.

00:34:12 It's not the state's job to be a welfare state.

00:34:16 Then secondly, you're assuming this is the state's job.

00:34:19 It's not.

00:34:20 And you're also assuming that these measures actually work, which they don't.

00:34:23 So you're saying this is their job.

00:34:25 It's not.

00:34:25 These things work.

00:34:26 They don't.

00:34:27 So it's just this horrible argument.

00:34:29 And even if you were right on both those two accounts, it still isn't equal to a million

00:34:34 babies murdered a year.

00:34:35 Like, you know what I mean? So it's just, you're wrong. Three strikes, you're out, Thabiti, which I believe his actual name is Ron. You know, but anyways, you're out, you know, that doesn't work. And so I was in Acts 29 watching the same thing, horrified that like, what is going on? I just didn't understand. And I kept thinking, well, I'm a young pastor, you know, maybe, maybe I'm just arrogant or just maybe I'm oblivious. And, you know, maybe this is one of those things where you just got to get older in the faith to have some more maturity to understand.

00:35:04 And now, by God's grace, I am older in the faith, and I do understand. 0.99

00:35:08 And what I understand is that those guys were hypocrites and liars and cowards. 0.99

00:35:12 And so, yeah. 1.00

00:35:13 Yeah.

00:35:14 Well, you know, historically, if I were to sketch just a brief survey, I think there

00:35:19 are a lot of guys in our age bracket, and then the guys sort of in the next age bracket

00:35:23 up, those guys came of age sort of in the heyday of the original moral majority.

00:35:30 and um you know also they some of those guys saw in america that like we we didn't see growing up

00:35:37 you know like for example like i never really saw any you know real hardcore racism growing up yeah

00:35:45 i'm sure some of the guys in the previous generation you know that they actually saw

00:35:49 some of that instead what i saw growing up was a rising tide of anti-white sentiment right you

00:35:54 know so there's this like i think there are a lot of those leaders who are stuck in sort of like a

00:35:58 2000 mindset. They didn't realize how much the world has changed. And as they're trying to

00:36:04 articulate Christianity to a next generation, they want to shed this icky sense of the moral

00:36:11 majority, God and country, church and Republicans. And quite frankly, Joel, I just think that the 0.77

00:36:17 vast majority of the social justice movement was just a large cover to assuage the consciences of 0.58

00:36:22 Christians to vote for Democrats. Because it was, I kid you not, at the bottom line,

00:36:27 it was more cool than voting for Republicans. And that's just a terrible way to think about

00:36:31 voting in government. Right. No, I completely agree. And I know you mentioned earlier in this

00:36:36 episode, so I'll say, so you don't have to, I know you want to do your best to honor, you know,

00:36:41 spiritual fathers and mothers, but Tim Keller is a registered Democrat and so is Mark Devon,

00:36:47 you know? And so I think that like, sadly, like that just, I think, you know, I'll use Ligon

00:36:51 Duncan, as an example, in writing the Ford for woke church, which it's like, why, why would he

00:36:57 do that? But then when, when you look in a little bit to, you know, his upbringing and his past and

00:37:02 those kinds of things, I can't impute motives. I wasn't there. I don't know. So I'm, I'm not making

00:37:05 a definitive claim. I'm, this is speculation and I'll, and I'll call it as such, but there's a

00:37:12 good chance with his age bracket, like you're talking about that generation raised in the

00:37:16 South, you know, white man, um, there's a sense in, in which he, if he himself personally did

00:37:22 not engage in racism or racist attitudes towards people of color, he probably had some close

00:37:29 relationships with people who did, you know, at least, at least when he was younger and when

00:37:33 those things were common, when he was a child. And so I think for some of these guys, I think

00:37:37 you're onto something. I think that's insightful for some of these older guys. Um, I think in some

00:37:42 way it was being cool and in some way it was penance you know what i mean like oh yeah like

00:37:46 kind of and but see that's the thing is it's this is what cowardice does one it's not understanding

00:37:51 the gospel it's affirmative action in the church that's exactly yeah and and it's out of guilt is

00:37:57 this penance it's assuaging a guilty conscience but the the cowardice piece comes in because

00:38:01 um i think sometimes what happens for for all of us if we're not careful

00:38:05 is um we we repent um but we repent once it's it's publicly and culturally permissible to repent

00:38:14 meaning that uh guys started uh doing some of these things this anti-white sentiment uh this

00:38:20 this affirmative action in the church uh but when did they start doing it like like 30 40 years

00:38:26 too late after it was needed like like guys now you know are coming you know it's like like guys

00:38:32 the opportunist guys who all of a sudden there's a rise of conservative players and this is

00:38:38 happening. The tide's turning on COVID tyranny and the tide's turning on BLM. And then certain

00:38:42 guys, you know who they are, they run out in front of the conservative resurgence parade and act like

00:38:47 they engineered it. And I think that's kind of what we saw happening. These guys who maybe they

00:38:51 participated or at least they were a part of that culture that was kind of racist. And instead of

00:38:58 actually being courageous then when it would have mattered, now that the tide has actually

00:39:02 turned and you actually can benefit culturally and publicly benefit by taking a stand, we'll do

00:39:08 our retroactive penance for the sin of 30, 40 years ago. Whereas you and I, back to your original

00:39:16 point, we didn't have that sin 30, 40 years ago. We weren't even born. And so we didn't have that

00:39:21 sense. Kevin Young has a great closing line in his review of the book Reparations, which is a book

00:39:29 by a guy named Greg Johnson and Duke Kwan. And Duke Kwan is a PCA pastor in the DC area. And

00:39:37 I think he's unashamedly woke. So if I call him that, I don't think he'd mind it.

00:39:42 Are you talking about the revoice Greg Johnson?

00:39:45 You know, actually, I don't know if it is the revoice Greg. I'm pretty sure it's not the

00:39:48 revoice i was gonna ask different greg john that was me being kind i wanted to say do you mean the

00:39:53 gay uh greg johnson i don't think it's a different greg johnson um but um but duke kwan's is sort of

00:40:00 the main character associated but anyway the closing line of de young's review of that book

00:40:05 is essentially like they're arguing for a system in which he says like the white guilt never stops

00:40:09 and the reparations never ends and i think that that's a good summary of the ethos of of the move

00:40:15 you and I are critiquing here, um, that, you know, has it's, you know, it's, I'm not sure

00:40:21 where it is these days. I've been interested in hearing your thoughts, you know, it's sort of

00:40:24 the, the wave has crashed over the YRR movement. You know, you pull out at X 29, people like John

00:40:31 on with Cheka, you know, they pull out of the SBC because, you know, you say it's too woke and

00:40:36 he says it's too racist. You know, we're going our separate ways here. Uh, where do you think

00:40:42 things stand? Like what's next? I think the middle ground is evaporating. I think

00:40:46 Bodhi Bauckham nailed it with his fault lines, you know? And so I think like we had all these

00:40:51 old fault lines and we knew what they were. And the dust had long settled, decades, you could

00:40:57 even argue in some cases centuries, but the old fault lines, you know, are you reformed or are

00:41:01 you Arminian? And that's a, you know, centuries old fault line, but even some of the new resurgence

00:41:07 of, you know, the young reformed restless guys. So, but still that's a 30 year old fault line.

00:41:11 If you think of the rise of Calvinism, you know, in its resurgence, most recently, that's still 30 years ago, 20 years ago.

00:41:18 And so that, that would be a big one reformed in Arminian.

00:41:21 And then you got continuationist and cessationist, and then you've got, you know, the credo, pedo kind of thing.

00:41:26 And so you've got all these fault lines and, and that's why you're able to do like together for the gospel.

00:41:32 And you're able to do, cause it's like, all right, we, we've all landed.

00:41:36 The dust has settled.

00:41:37 We know what seats on, on the bus we're on.

00:41:39 Right.

00:41:39 And then all of a sudden we realized there are some other fault lines we didn't even consider before. And a lot of it has to do with politics. A lot of it has to do with a Christian ethic. And so you've got the COVID. 2020, you've got BLM and civil tyranny. And boom, all of a sudden there's this new divide with guys that we thought were on our side because we were both Calvinist. We were both cessationists. We were both whatever.

00:42:06 And so I just think that like, once again, it's like we've got the fresh paint of new fault lines on, you know, like fresh lines on the cement.

00:42:17 And people are, it's just this like national and even global game of musical chairs.

00:42:22 And I think the dust is still settling.

00:42:23 It's a great time, I think, to start a new ministry.

00:42:26 Like I'm planting a new church and we went from 20 to 120 since April last year to today.

00:42:32 And, and I think a lot of it is because just being out, a lot of people have left, we're not talking about chronically dissatisfied church hoppers. I'm talking people who were faithful members for 18 years in their local church and then realize my pastor is a liberal. My pastor's woke. My pastor's a tyrant. My pastor is a coward or what, he doesn't have a spine, you know, whatever it is. And so I think these new fault lines are setting in, people are rearranging on the deck. And that's where I want to turn it back to you and ask you this.

00:42:59 I think, you know, one of the big fault lines is civil tyranny and wokeness. And the dust was starting to settle, I thought, where it's like, okay, so we just lost like over half of evangelicalism. So that's a bit depressing.

00:43:14 But, hey, we still got a decent crew over here that's against social justice and CRT and intersectionality and against civil tyranny and their four churches being opened.

00:43:24 And they saw through, you know, the play with masks and the jab and all these kinds of things.

00:43:29 And like, man, you know what?

00:43:30 Like we lost like half of evangelicalism.

00:43:33 That's not exciting.

00:43:34 But we still got a really good crew here, you know.

00:43:37 And then we're quickly realizing that we agree on the problems, but we radically disagree on the solution.

00:43:46 And so, like the rise of Christian nationalism, you know, like I've got Stephen Wolf's book here, you know, no relation. 0.51

00:43:53 I do not.

00:43:55 But I'm happy to take, as I've said, I'm happy to take all credit that can be accrued to my account.

00:44:01 And yet I want none of the criticism.

00:44:03 Right.

00:44:03 Yeah, yeah.

00:44:04 So if there's anything good that could be attributed to a wolf in that book, I'll take it.

00:44:07 But if there's criticism, it's all Stephen.

00:44:08 From what I can tell, it's all good.

00:44:11 But most people will not have that opinion.

00:44:13 But it is fantastic.

00:44:14 And I actually just interviewed him.

00:44:15 I recorded with him last night.

00:44:17 And so we'll see what order these actually air.

00:44:20 But I just recorded with Stephen last night.

00:44:23 Inside of Right Response Ministries, there are two wolves.

00:44:26 Yeah, exactly.

00:44:26 And the one you feed is the one that will win.

00:44:30 Yeah, it's the wolf pack.

00:44:31 So anyways, but my point is like, there's a radical, there's a new divide now.

00:44:34 So like, I, I feel like Bodie Bauckham, like could, you know, two years from now could

00:44:37 write another book, uh, like fault lines episode two, you know, with, and so lines, the aftershock

00:44:44 exactly the aftershock.

00:44:45 Yeah.

00:44:45 And, and so anyways, with that, what, what do you think, what, what is that divide?

00:44:50 Like, I thought like, there are certain guys that I thought we were on the same team, you

00:44:54 know, and some of these guys, I won't even name because I think the verdict's still out.

00:44:56 Like they may end up on our team.

00:44:59 But I'm talking about guys who like over the last two and a half years, it's like, man, thank God for that guy.

00:45:05 He's not woke.

00:45:06 He didn't bow the knee to the state.

00:45:09 He didn't, you know, and then but then it's like we're talking about, OK, now what do we do?

00:45:13 What's the solution?

00:45:14 Where do we go?

00:45:15 And I'm presenting some things like Christian nationalism or theonomy, you know, in a tiered down general equity theonomy.

00:45:24 And it's not just the guy saying, well, I don't think that's the best course of action.

00:45:28 No, the responses I'm getting on Twitter is like announcing our conference, like theonomy and post-millennial conference and people, you know, like coming out of the woodworks and saying, so disappointed to see, you know, James White speaking at this, you know, or so did like, and these are guys who aren't woke, but they're also like, I'm saying, I think this is, we should do something.

00:45:47 And what they want to do is classical liberal liberalism, or I don't know what they want to do.

00:45:53 I don't understand the divide.

00:45:55 What are your thoughts?

00:45:55 well i think that i think you're right we're in we're in sort of a rebuilding phase right where

00:46:01 uh the the original avengers are broken up we're putting the second team together here so uh we're

00:46:07 all trying to figure out you know where we fall after you know captain america civil war right

00:46:12 people probably gonna jab me for using such marvel references but i i grew up reading the

00:46:17 comic books and i enjoyed the movies so um at least up until they went insufferably woke so

00:46:23 So yeah, but I think that, I think jury's out on a lot of things right now and that's okay.

00:46:27 I mean, I, I, I would like to see, um, a, a sort of, I, uh, ecumenical is not the right

00:46:32 word, but sort of like an, um, a mag magnanimous working together.

00:46:37 If we agree on what the issues are, like, can, can we agree that drag queen story hour 0.96

00:46:42 is insufferable, intolerable and a pox upon our country? 1.00

00:46:45 Yes.

00:46:46 And then what does it take to, to resolve that?

00:46:49 has liberalism failed? That's a question that many scholars are asking and answering,

00:46:56 and some are asking and answering in different ways. And so I think we need to work through

00:47:00 this together. And I think that we shouldn't get too hung up on terminology. We need to be careful

00:47:07 to define our terms of what we mean. Obviously, Stephen Wolf has written a 400-page book

00:47:11 explaining what he means by Christian nationalism. I wrote a 20-page paper last year explaining what

00:47:17 i mean by christian nationalism and there's a lot of similarities there it's been really cool i was

00:47:21 writing this paper on christian nationalism and found steven wolf online and found other people

00:47:27 like james wood and i'm citing their articles and reading their their research and now sort of we're

00:47:32 uh you know online slash somewhat in real life friends right and uh yeah so i think i think that

00:47:38 we all need to have um you know have uh flexible minds you know firm convictions and thick skin

00:47:45 as we all try to think through these things together.

00:47:49 And if we're going to call it Christian nationalism

00:47:51 or as Douglas Wilson likes to call it, Christendom. 0.74

00:47:55 Right, mere Christendom.

00:47:55 Or whatever, what does it take to re-enshrine?

00:48:01 Here's what it is.

00:48:02 If we're thinking in the American context,

00:48:04 there were assumed preconditions, morality, civic virtue,

00:48:10 a large population, a large percentage of our population being Christians

00:48:13 that were not enshrined, but assumed pre-liberal conditions that the American project was able to

00:48:24 run on? Well, we've run out of it. And so what does it look like to enshrine the necessary

00:48:29 pre-liberal conditions for our constitutional republic to continue? And not just continue,

00:48:35 but to change course in such a way that we're a nation that, you know, bows the knee to King,

00:48:43 you know, bends the knee to King Jesus. And that we have magistrates, governors,

00:48:49 presidents who rule in such a way as to recognize the rule of Christ and they wield the sword

00:48:54 rightly. I don't want to just settle for, you know, rewinding the clock to 1970. I want to

00:49:00 go somewhere better. I think you do too. Amen. Yeah, absolutely. And so I think that's,

00:49:05 you know, I completely agree with you. I think classical liberalism and certainly libertarianism

00:49:10 and certain, you know, other, other different ideologies that, you know, that, that are under

00:49:15 the larger conservative banner really only worked, uh, because they were running off of the prior

00:49:21 capital of, of a mere Christendom. Um, I, I think that, you know, they, I think that's indisputable.

00:49:26 Yeah. Well, and see, that's, that's what I'm saying. That's what I'm getting at is that like

00:49:29 the second aftershock, I think that's a great way of putting it. It's like you got the, the

00:49:33 earthquake just went, uh, two and a half years, you know, 2020 was like an earthquake and it was

00:49:38 like a, like a, like one, two punch, you know, you come in with the left and then come in with

00:49:43 the right, you know, it's like COVID tyranny, shut down your church. And then boom in your face,

00:49:48 George Floyd, uh, you can protest with thousands of people, but no, you still can't worship,

00:49:52 you know? And, and so it was like, like it was civil tyranny and then boom, CRT and, and that

00:49:58 the CRT thing had been building for a while, but really, you know, climax in 2020. And so anyways,

00:50:03 You got that and it's like, oh my goodness, how are we going to survive?

00:50:06 And like, oh my goodness, we just lost half of evangelicalism.

00:50:09 Apparently, we're not all going to survive, but we still got a crew here.

00:50:12 And then, but then we're like getting hit again with like this Fault Lines 2.0 and the

00:50:18 aftershock of the 2020, you know, earthquake.

00:50:21 And that seems to be, again, not over the problem, but the solution.

00:50:26 Because I think we have a lot of commonality with guys who would say, yeah, drag queen 0.75

00:50:30 story hour is absolutely unacceptable. 0.97

00:50:33 get that out of here. That is absolutely ridiculous. But then they're still entertaining 0.97

00:50:40 this idea of moral neutrality. I'm like, as long as we have neutrality, we've got drag queen story 0.97

00:50:46 out, period. You can't get rid of that and hold to this ethos. You can't. 0.99

00:50:53 Right. Well, and some of the guys who would like to say that, well, look, I recognize there's no

00:50:58 neutrality, like a Jonathan Lehman, you know, I'm not really sure what their, what their

00:51:02 constructive vision is for what's better next, like what's best next, you know, what, what does

00:51:08 this look like? What actually should we be fighting for arguing for, you know, there's a lot of, you

00:51:13 know, poo pooing of the, of the efforts undertaken by people like Stephen Wolf, right. Or even by

00:51:19 people like me in my, you know, meager, small, you know, 280 character fashion, you know, I do quite

00:51:26 a bit of writing as well. I've tried to flesh some of this out. I think that I'm pretty convinced

00:51:31 that the overall renewal for America has to be a Protestant renewal. It can't just be like a 0.91

00:51:39 Catholic renewal. It can't just be even sort of like a general ecumenical vague Christian renewal.

00:51:46 It needs to be a Protestant Christian renewal because that's who we are as a nation. That's

00:51:50 who we've been. That's what a lot of the guys over at American Reformer are working towards.

00:51:55 But yeah, I think that I'd like to see guys, I'd like to see some voices out there do less

00:52:01 critiquing and more constructing.

00:52:03 What's your alternative solution?

00:52:05 You know, build a widget and put it out there for us to, you know, stress test it.

00:52:09 Right.

00:52:09 And we'll see what we come up with.

00:52:11 Amen.

00:52:11 I completely agree.

00:52:13 Yeah.

00:52:13 And I think, you know, the question that keeps getting asked again and again over these past

00:52:18 few years is by what standard?

00:52:20 By what standard?

00:52:21 By what standard?

00:52:23 And, you know, and I think some guys-

00:52:25 Someone made a documentary about that.

00:52:26 Yeah.

00:52:27 Yeah.

00:52:27 And they got in trouble with the trailer, you know, so, but yeah, but like by what standard

00:52:32 and proceeding, you know, the founders and by what standard you've got, well, you've

00:52:37 got rush tuning that like, that's, that's where that, you know, comes from.

00:52:40 And so, but the question is like, is it just the second table of the law?

00:52:45 Is it, is it just, you know, the 10 commandments minus the first four, it's just commandment

00:52:48 five through 10, right? All horizontal in relation to, you know, our duty to love our neighbor.

00:52:55 Or do nations actually have a God-given duty to actually legislate the first four of the

00:53:06 Ten Commandments that idolatry is wrong? Should there be blasphemy laws? Should we have Sabbath 0.94

00:53:12 laws? Like, should there be, you know, these kinds of, and the crazy thing is that like, 0.56

00:53:16 Well, we have blasphemy laws, right? 0.89

00:53:19 Just ask who you can't criticize and you know who rules over you. 0.67

00:53:22 And we sort of have Sabbath laws these days with our new work from home regime as well. 0.73

00:53:27 You're absolutely right.

00:53:28 It's not whether but which.

00:53:29 So the question is whose blasphemy laws and which day of rest will be mandated.

00:53:35 And Joe Rigney in a panel last night, I think, did a really good job holding out to other Baptists

00:53:41 that the Bible makes it clear that civil rulers can and should know that they are ruling under

00:53:47 God's authority. Even if those rulers themselves are not necessarily regenerate, they should

00:53:53 recognize that there is a higher authority that exists over them that has orchestrated,

00:53:59 sovereignly orchestrated that they would be in this position of authority. I mean, we see

00:54:04 multiple examples of this in scripture. I mean, sometimes we see those men repent and come to

00:54:10 faith. And sometimes we see those men just recognize that they are under a higher hand

00:54:15 and they rebel against it. But Psalm 2 means something, right? Either Psalm 2 means something

00:54:21 or it doesn't. And Psalm 2 does not sit isolated apart from Romans 13. Romans 13 doesn't sit

00:54:29 isolated apart from Exodus 20. The whole Bible goes together on these issues, and we need to

00:54:35 really dig back into it and apply it to our lives. Amen. Yeah. Nebuchadnezzar, you know,

00:54:40 I think the verdict's still out, you know, in regards to like, was Nebuchadnezzar a Christian?

00:54:46 Was he regenerate? You know, but Nebuchadnezzar certainly realized, especially after seven years 0.68

00:54:52 of being on all fours, eating, you know, the grass and the drinking, the dew of the field, 0.76

00:54:57 losing his mind, you know, after that, the Lord humbling him. Nebuchadnezzar recognized

00:55:02 There was a God in heaven, you know, King Darius was King Darius regenerate.

00:55:06 Yeah.

00:55:06 That's where I was going to next.

00:55:08 Yeah.

00:55:08 Perfect.

00:55:09 So yeah, Daniel three, we've got Nebuchadnezzar with Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, Daniel

00:55:12 chapter six, if you want to pull it up, but Daniel six is, you know, Daniel, the lion's

00:55:16 den and, uh, and you got Darius, you know, and it's like, we don't, I don't know if,

00:55:21 if Darius, um, was regenerate, but what we do know is that Darius recognized that Yahweh

00:55:27 was the true God, that Daniel's God was God.

00:55:31 And then what does he immediately do? He had this lousy decree that he had been influenced by worthless men who just hated Daniel. And this whole thing with COVID would preach. I remember so many people saying, well, we shouldn't resist these things because you only resist when it's persecution.

00:55:52 And the criteria for persecution is it has to be directly targeting Christians.

00:55:58 And I remember saying, well, Darius didn't directly target Daniel.

00:56:02 Darius wouldn't have done this decree if he knew that it was targeting Daniel because Daniel was his guy.

00:56:08 He liked Daniel.

00:56:09 The way that the guys got Darius to pass the law was it was that no one, no one of no matter what religion they were, they could not petition any man. 0.92

00:56:19 So atheists and agnostics are included.

00:56:21 Right.

00:56:21 It wasn't just worship of gods.

00:56:24 It was no other god or no other man but Darius for 30 days, 30 days to stop the spread of prayer, you know, just 30 days, you know.

00:56:32 And Darius makes his decree.

00:56:34 And then when God, you know, I don't know if God saved him, but when God reveals to him Daniel's God is the God who shuts the mouth of lions, Darius makes another decree.

00:56:43 And this decree is everybody better pay homage to Daniel's God.

00:56:49 Let me read it.

00:56:50 Yeah, yeah, read it.

00:56:50 If Darius can say this when we don't know whether or not Darius is regenerate, why can't we ask the same thing from our leaders today?

00:57:03 Darius says – so this is Daniel 6, 25 through 28, and I'll just read 26 through 27 here.

00:57:12 But it says Darius honors God.

00:57:14 and he says, I issue a decree that in all my royal dominion, people must tremble in fear before the

00:57:20 God of Daniel, for he is the living God and he endures forever. His kingdom will never be

00:57:25 destroyed and his dominion has no end. He rescues and delivers. He performs signs and wonders in the

00:57:31 heavens and on the earth, for he has rescued Daniel from the power of the lion. So Daniel

00:57:35 prospered during the reign of Darius and the reign of Cyrus, the Persian. I mean, even that

00:57:40 right there for he is the living god and he endures forever amen why can't i mean joe biden say it

00:57:47 you know like say jesus is lord say it say jesus is so say it well wait but it's like i don't know

00:57:53 why we can't have look i understand look so i'll get this was the old testament but i would not

00:57:57 say that this falls into a pocket of covenantal theology that we would have to assume is siloed

00:58:02 off from our lives today no way because it's persia right yeah so if this we're not talking

00:58:08 right exactly they're they're in exile here so um this where is i going to go with all this oh

00:58:15 yeah i just wanted to go off real quickly on you said you know 30 days to stop the prayer you know

00:58:20 30 days to stop the spread of prayer in the babylonian empire but you know this covid really

00:58:28 you know also opened my eyes to how how bad so much of the thinking was on the nature of the

00:58:33 relationship between the church and the state and what are the responsibilities of the church

00:58:38 to the state and the state to the church. And, and how, you know, I heard this formulation

00:58:44 kind of tossed at me over and over again, that the Christian must obey unless the state commands

00:58:51 disobedience or forbids obedience. And those are the only two options within which you are free

00:58:58 to exercise civil disobedience. And I say that that's just certainly cannot be the case, right?

00:59:03 You know, some of our brothers, you know, like Todd Friel got in trouble saying, well,

00:59:06 he would wear the pinwheel if the state told him to. And I'm saying, well, no, I will not wear the

00:59:10 pinwheel if the state tells me to, right? Laws also need to be reasonable. They need to be grounded

00:59:15 in a rational expression of what is good and just for mankind. And there are more opportunities and

00:59:23 reasons for us to potentially politely decline to acquiesce with the state's commands than just

00:59:29 those two sort of hard brackets. And we need to recover that speed. Amen. And one of the reasons

00:59:35 why is because of, of love for neighbor. What people don't realize is that, uh, when the

00:59:38 government tells you to wear a pink pinwheel on the side of your head, um, although that does not

00:59:43 cause you to directly, uh, disobey what God commands or, or causes you, uh, forbids you from,

00:59:49 um, um, uh, you know, God's commands. Exactly. Obey. Yeah. It doesn't cause you to do anything

00:59:55 that God forbids or not do anything that God commands. Um, but what it does do is it, um,

01:00:00 every single person who complies with an unjust law, um, is feeding and strengthening the arm of

01:00:09 the state to eventually enact that unjust law. And so like people don't, they don't think about it,

01:00:14 but it's like, well, yeah, I just wore the mask. I'm just going to be, I'm just going to be polite.

01:00:17 I'm just going to do this, or I'm just going to do that. Or yeah, I'm going to work from home,

01:00:20 you know, or yeah, I'm going to, what they're not realizing is that, um, because of everyone's,

01:00:25 you know, polite compliance, a bunch of other people lost their jobs. So you're doing this

01:00:30 and calling it love for neighbor. But, but if a bunch of people said, no, it would have been done.

01:00:35 Like, you know, when, when COVID ended, when the American people were done with COVID,

01:00:39 that's when it ended. Sure. It's the moment we were done, then, then, you know, then all of a

01:00:45 sudden they say, oh yeah, yeah. The pandemic's over, you know, not because they even wanted

01:00:49 it to be over, not because the science had changed political science, perhaps, but no,

01:00:53 because the people were done with it. And what I realized is, oh my goodness, we could have been

01:00:57 done with this like a long time ago, but none of us stood up and not realizing that, okay, yeah,

01:01:03 maybe the state's not requiring me to do anything that is definitively sinful. But my acquiescence

01:01:11 in this arena is fueling the state. And it's like, I'm giving the state power, empowering his arm

01:01:19 to crush my neighbor over here. It's not crushing me because I have the ability with my vocation to

01:01:25 work remotely or whatever it might be. But this guy over here just lost his job. And I actually

01:01:29 have a part in that. I actually was, you know, I have some responsibility in that. And so, yeah,

01:01:35 so we have to be, you know, resistance to tyranny is obedience to God. And there are some things I

01:01:40 think we have to be prudent with it. So like taxes, I would say that our tax system right now

01:01:44 and the amount that we're taxed is unjust. And so I would actually be one of the guys who I would

01:01:49 make an argument and say that a Christian could not pay taxes and it would not be a

01:01:53 sin against God. 0.82

01:01:55 But what I would say is that, but you're probably going to go to jail.

01:01:59 And so-

01:01:59 For my Fed handler watching this interview, I just want to say that that was Joel and

01:02:04 not me who made such a declaration of sovereign citizenship.

01:02:08 So me and Toby Sumter did an episode on that and both agreeing that that is unjust.

01:02:15 We would say anything that rivals the tithe is theft.

01:02:18 The state cannot take any more than what God demands, which is 10%.

01:02:22 So the state needs to be 9% or lower.

01:02:24 Anything above that, which we're way beyond that, we would say that that is tyranny and

01:02:29 that that could be resisted.

01:02:32 You have to resist when the state is telling you to do something sinful.

01:02:36 You can resist and then sometimes should resist because everything I said earlier, it fuels

01:02:41 the state's arm to crush your neighbor.

01:02:43 But then there are other times where it's like, okay, I actually am going to submit

01:02:47 to this, even though it would not be a sin before God to resist, but I'm going to submit to this

01:02:53 nonetheless, because we want to also, this brings in another piece of the puzzle, but we want to be

01:02:57 strategic and, and which battles are we going to fight? And it does us no good if every, I think

01:03:03 of, you know, Mormons, um, like some of the old school Mormons who wanted to get back to the roots 0.85

01:03:08 of Mormonism, who did tax evasion in America and they all wound up in jail. Like it was a lost

01:03:13 cause. It didn't work out well for them. So I don't want to lead this resurgence of Christians

01:03:19 who evade taxes. And then we don't actually accomplish anything because we're all in jail. 1.00

01:03:24 So I don't think that's the battle we should face. That's not Christian nationalism. 0.85

01:03:27 Right. Exactly. That's not the battle that I think we should fight. But the point is, 0.68

01:03:31 but it does need to be a piece of the conversation because we want to be consistent in our

01:03:35 principles. So if I can say no pinwheel, according to scripture, I think I can also say no 30%

01:03:42 taxes. No, no, sir. But I will submit in this area because I have a family to feed. I have

01:03:47 obligations at home. I can't afford to go to prison. We're going to fight this slowly. We

01:03:52 have time. We're going to win. Time is on our side. And we're going to win. We're going to

01:03:56 fight it slowly. And we're going to fight it through these different avenues, doctrines of

01:03:59 the lesser magistrate come into the picture. And so anyways, I just thought that'd be worth

01:04:03 mentioning. But any other thoughts real quick on Darius? Because I feel like, man, I feel like

01:04:09 that a preach? I just think that I think whether it's Darius or whether it's what Paul and Peter

01:04:15 say in the New Testament, I think what we see in Psalm 2 or in Philippians 2, right? Like every

01:04:23 knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the

01:04:27 Father. I mean, ultimately confession of Christ as Lord is only a question of when, not a question

01:04:32 of if, you know, and I think that as, you know, as Christians in a country, we want to seek the

01:04:39 good, the earthly and the heavenly good of our country, as Stephen Wolf talks about. It's a good

01:04:43 frame. And it's one that I think is a little dissonant for many evangelical Christians who

01:04:47 have so divorced their heavenly citizenship from their earthly travels. And I was thinking about

01:04:53 this today. I think American Christians treat our citizenship like it's a rental car, you know, 1.00

01:05:01 like the phrase, like drive it like you stole it or drive it like it's a rental. Well, that's 0.96

01:05:05 completely unbiblical, right? That's not what our approach to citizenship should be. Now, as soon

01:05:10 as you begin to go down this road, people will begin to trot out all sorts of tropes and

01:05:15 accusations. Oh, you're just trying to use Jesus to get power. Don't you know your savior was

01:05:20 crucified by the state? Well, yes, I do know that. He's also currently reigning over all states

01:05:26 in all places at all time. And, uh, Christians should be seeking to take dominion, to be 1.00

01:05:34 cultivating the land that God has put us in for the good of our neighbors, for the good of our

01:05:38 community, for the good of our families. Like you, like you and I were talking about, like we need,

01:05:42 we need men to pursue, you know, vigorous Christian development in the world and not

01:05:47 just in the church, right? We need, um, we need, we need men to be building. That's what God made

01:05:52 us to do. So don't treat our citizenship here in America like it's a rental car, like we're just

01:05:58 going to beat it up on our way to heaven and then turn it in and get glorified. I mean, amen, we

01:06:03 will get glorified, but heaven is our home and earth is our home and America and God's sovereign

01:06:10 grace is my home. And so I want to see America do well. And the first step for America to do well

01:06:17 is to recognize that Christ is king.

01:06:20 Amen.

01:06:21 And there's so many, we're going, like you said earlier, 0.99

01:06:23 we're going to have to have this Protestant big tent. 1.00

01:06:26 We're going to need a big tent. 1.00

01:06:28 And if we're actually going to pull this off by God's grace, 1.00

01:06:32 but in that big tent, in this Protestant resurgence, 0.98

01:06:35 renewal of getting back to our roots

01:06:37 and really forming and shaping a Christian ethic

01:06:40 and a Christian view of politics,

01:06:42 there's a lot of doctrines we're going to have to go back to

01:06:45 because everything that you just described

01:06:46 the whole time you were talking,

01:06:47 I just kept thinking a radical two kingdom doesn't help with what you're

01:06:51 describing.

01:06:52 No, radical two kingdom is the problem.

01:06:54 That's the problem.

01:06:54 Exactly.

01:06:55 So you've got this two kingdom theology that I think is a big problem where

01:07:00 whether the kingdoms are sacred and common,

01:07:03 that radical dualism I think is a huge problem.

01:07:07 But I do believe in two kingdoms, but I think it's light and dark.

01:07:11 And when Constantine is in power, you've got light in the state.

01:07:14 And when you've got a false teacher in the church, you've got darkness in the church.

01:07:18 So you have three spheres, two kingdoms, not common and sacred, but light and dark.

01:07:23 And one king reigning over all of it.

01:07:26 And there is no dark shadowy place like the Lion King, you know, all the land, everything

01:07:30 the light touches, you know, Simba.

01:07:32 But what about that dark shadowy place?

01:07:33 That's politics.

01:07:34 You must never go there.

01:07:35 Christ reign has no power.

01:07:36 Like that.

01:07:37 No, that doesn't exist.

01:07:38 That's the CDC.

01:07:39 Right, exactly.

01:07:40 That doesn't exist.

01:07:41 And so one more thought real quick about Darius that I just thought was, I will make a decree.

01:07:46 It's verse 26, chapter 6, Daniel.

01:07:48 I will make a decree that in all my royal dominion, people are to tremble and fear before the God of Daniel.

01:07:55 For he is a living God enduring forever.

01:07:57 His kingdom shall never be destroyed.

01:07:59 And of his dominion there shall be no end. 0.61

01:08:04 That's not only is it Christian. 1.00

01:08:06 Yeah.

01:08:07 But what I was going to say is not only is it Christian and this isn't Israel.

01:08:10 So this is another nation outside of Israel without that unique covenant with the nation state of Israel, a king exercising legislative authority for all peoples underneath his civil rule.

01:08:23 And it's not a second table of the law legislation that he's giving.

01:08:28 It's not.

01:08:28 I declare because Daniel's God is real, no man shall murder his fellow man or no man should steal from his.

01:08:36 No, it's all men shall tremble before the God of Daniel, shall worship.

01:08:42 So he gives a first table law, you know, have no other gods before me law, worship the triune God, worship Yahweh. 0.76

01:08:51 And he's alleged, he's decreeing it.

01:08:53 It's law.

01:08:55 All men under my authority, my civil authority that God has granted to me have an obligation to worship the true God.

01:09:02 i you know and unless the argument's going to be from the old testament christian nationalist

01:09:08 right there exactly so like so i want to like i want to talk to jonathan lehman like what are you

01:09:13 going to do with that are you going to say like you know darius did this and when darius died

01:09:16 one day and stood before god in judgment uh this is one of the things that god corrected him for

01:09:21 i don't think so is that is that where you want to be lehman when jesus comes back making that

01:09:26 argument about darius i don't think that's a good place to be so i like we got to do something you

01:09:30 You would argue, and I got to go here and just say my wife's birthday, or that you would argue that it shouldn't be done because if it is done, it somehow sort of erodes the principles of classical liberalism or erodes the principles of multicultural pluralism.

01:09:51 Look, all of governing is costs and tradeoffs, right?

01:09:53 Like and I was I was thinking about this the other day in terms of like, well, I need to be honest about the costs that I think we some people should be paying. Right. So right now in the American governing construct, we're paying the cost of the proliferation of transvestite strippers and drag queens, the proliferation of abortion up to nine months in New York, California, Colorado, etc.

01:10:16 And the benefit we get, I guess, is that nobody feels in any way coerced by the system of government we have because it has no religious flavor to it. 0.85

01:10:27 And so everybody feels comfortable and we can have a mosque and a synagogue and a church on every corner or a satanic temple, whatever. 0.66

01:10:35 Well, look, we need to maybe think about in a future that where we don't have the drag queens, maybe because we did that based off of explicit Christian principles and a recognition that the God of Daniel is still God, that perhaps some people feel a little less comfortable in our country. 0.76

01:10:54 It's not that they're not citizens. They're still citizens. They can still vote. They can enjoy all the privileges of a citizenship, but they recognize that they live in a Christian country that reflects Christian values. 0.99

01:11:03 In the same way that if I went over to the Middle East and moved into a Muslim country, I would feel uncomfortable because five times a day I would be reminded that they worship another god.

01:11:12 That's right. 1.00

01:11:13 Should they stop doing that?

01:11:14 Well, yes, they should because they should remember trusting Christ.

01:11:17 But I don't have an American imperialist privilege to tell them to stop doing that sort of America to Dubai per se. 0.66

01:11:25 Christian to Muslim, I say, stop doing it. 1.00

01:11:28 So why can't we have that here in our country? 1.00

01:11:30 Amen. 1.00

01:11:30 I say that we can, if that's the trade-off that gets us, you know, less drag queens. 1.00

01:11:35 Amen. 1.00

01:11:36 Yeah, we can and we should.

01:11:38 And I believe that by God's grace that we will.

01:11:41 I feel very helpful.

01:11:42 So, all right.

01:11:43 Thanks for your time.

01:11:44 Let our listeners know, William, how can they follow you?

01:11:47 Remind us of, you know, how they can follow you on Twitter, but then also some of your

01:11:51 articles.

01:11:51 You mentioned a couple of groups that you write for.

01:11:54 Sure.

01:11:54 Yeah.

01:11:54 So you can find me on Twitter at William underscore E underscore Wolf with an E on the end of

01:11:59 it.

01:11:59 That's William Wolfe, not Stephen Wolfe.

01:12:02 So William underscore E underscore Wolfe on Twitter.

01:12:06 And then I write regularly for the Freedom Center out of Liberty University.

01:12:09 So that's standingforfreedom.com.

01:12:12 And I also do some writing for the Center for Renewing America.

01:12:15 So you can find them online at Center for Renewing America.

01:12:18 And I host Twitter spaces sometimes for American Reformer.

01:12:22 So you can find those on Twitter or you can visit them at amreformer.org.

01:12:28 Awesome.

01:12:28 Thanks so much for coming on the show.

01:12:30 God bless.

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The NXR Podcast - November 29, 2022

THEOLOGY APPLIED - The Growing Division Over Christian Nationalism ｜ with William Wolfe

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