The NXR Podcast - THEOLOGY APPLIED - The Latest Hit-Piece On Joe Boot, Doug Wilson, and Apologia ｜ with Joe Boot

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00:00:27.500 All right, welcome back to another episode of Theology Applied. I am your host, Pastor Joel

00:00:32.040 Webin with Right Response Ministries. And in this episode, I am privileged to welcome back to the

00:00:36.920 show for, I don't know, maybe the fourth or fifth time. He's a reoccurring regular guest, Dr. Joseph

00:00:43.120 Boot. We're going to be discussing the hit piece that was just put out on the Ezra Institute,

00:00:48.520 which he is the president of, as well as Moscow, Idaho, Christchurch, Doug Wilson, and Apologia.

00:00:55.500 it seems as though there are some progressive Western governments that don't like the idea of

00:01:02.440 basic, what we would consider to be basic, orthodox Christianity. Not just a privatized

00:01:09.820 lordship of Jesus in our sweet, precious little hearts, but believing, as all Christians have

00:01:15.880 until about 15 minutes ago, that Christ's lordship is public. Progressive, godless governments are 0.89

00:01:23.140 threatened by the public lordship of Jesus, that he is not just king somewhere else in the 17th

00:01:29.740 dimension, and he is not just going to be king at a later future point, but he is king of kings

00:01:36.260 now, and he is king of kings here. Real quick before we hop into the episode, if you haven't

00:01:42.340 already, check out my book, Fight by Flight, Why Leaving Godless Places is Loving Godless Places.

00:01:49.560 The book is forwarded by Douglas Wilson of Christ Church in Moscow, Idaho.

00:01:54.740 It's also endorsed by Steve Dace from The Blaze Network,

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00:05:22.140 Applying God's Word to every aspect of life.

00:05:25.880 This is Theology Applied.

00:05:31.820 Welcome to another episode of Theology Applied.

00:05:34.600 I am your host, Pastor Joel Webin with Right Response Ministries, and we are welcoming back.

00:05:40.080 Very privileged to have, once again, I believe it's the 24th time, Dr. Joseph Boot.

00:05:45.880 It's not the 24th time, but we do a lot of stuff together, and I love it.

00:05:48.940 I feel like we've been able to cultivate a friendship.

00:05:51.200 I've learned so much from you, and so I'm honored to have you back on the show.

00:05:53.900 Thanks.

00:05:54.840 Thanks for having me, Joel.

00:05:56.140 Yeah, I think, I don't know, it might be maybe the fourth or fifth time, but it's great to be back,

00:06:01.640 and always appreciate being on the show

00:06:04.820 and the encouragement it is to watch your developing ministry

00:06:09.720 and the conferences you've been hosting, the books you're writing.

00:06:14.420 These things are a real encouragement to us at the Ezra Institute

00:06:18.040 to see how the Lord's blessing what you're doing,

00:06:20.540 blessing the message, and reaching a lot of people.

00:06:23.760 Praise God. Thanks, Joe.

00:06:25.300 All right, so let's go ahead and dive into it.

00:06:27.240 We're going to talk about, you know, it'll be hard for me

00:06:31.540 over the course of this episode to resist the temptation to covet uh to envy but you recently

00:06:37.160 received such high praise um from um from from canada and so do you want to tell our listeners

00:06:44.140 about the incredible compliments that you've received recently yeah yeah you're making me um

00:06:51.980 you're making me choke it out there yeah i mean that's one way of putting it uh high praise and

00:06:57.340 Compliments. Yeah. So basically what happened, which I know will be a little bit of a struggle for some some Americans to get their heads around that these things are this degree of a problem.

00:07:08.980 But basically, in Canada, there's very little. In fact, there's no mainstream media alternative to what we would call the progressive, neo-Marxist, secular media.

00:07:28.780 The small attempts that have been made to create something mainstream have not survived any length of time.

00:07:34.360 They've been basically regulated out of existence. And today, all you've got is a handful of online attempts at building some kind of an online audience that would offer any kind of alternative media to basically the mainstream progressive agenda.

00:07:53.280 and uh the the biggest one is called the cbc the cbc for um all my american friends there is the

00:08:02.420 is the equivalent of the bbc in england most people will have heard of the bbc uh

00:08:10.460 many would not have heard of the cbc but the cbc just means the the canadian broadcasting

00:08:16.080 corporation which we affectionately call the communist broadcasting corporation or canada

00:08:22.000 broadcasting communism uh but essentially that's the that's the agenda and it receives again maybe

00:08:30.260 a bit difficult for americans to get their head around this but they receive 1.3 billion a year

00:08:36.620 in taxpayer funds so it's wow it's essentially state media about 70 percent of its funding

00:08:42.840 annually comes from the state varies between 1.2 and 1.3 billion which is why i think even elon

00:08:49.560 musk recently tagged uh the cbc's twitter account as state media um i don't know how long that

00:08:58.820 lasted but it was certain because there were some complaints but it but it was certainly

00:09:01.900 a while and uh so it's very difficult for christians generally to get a voice in the media

00:09:11.240 to to have uh their their their message fairly represented or for there even to be what we would

00:09:18.400 call a conservative voice so it's not like the u.s where you can think of major massive media

00:09:25.380 corporations like fox that would be coming from a completely different perspective to cnn

00:09:30.540 um they were they were yeah fox has not has not been so great lately but but you're right

00:09:37.560 your point still stands yeah well yeah they lost tucker and replaced essentially replaced tucker

00:09:43.760 with um with bruce jenner dressed up as a woman you know it's like like uh bruce jenner now is a

00:09:51.280 regular contributor with fox so it's just it's hilarious but any but your point is well taken

00:09:56.560 you're right for up until recently fox has been you know generally conservative and it's a juggernaut

00:10:02.660 um in the u.s and you're right there's no there's no concept of that uh in canada is what you're

00:10:07.300 saying right there's no concept of that at all and and so i think sometimes americans will look

00:10:12.300 at other western countries and think well you know what's your equivalent of fox news well

00:10:16.120 there isn't one in canada uh there is in the uk where i am um now there is a competing

00:10:22.820 conservative media but but not in canada anyway that's the sort of backdrop to uh what i wanted

00:10:30.280 to to share with you uh which you've uh said is the the the the heaping of praise upon the

00:10:36.420 recently received is that um the national media in canada recently ran just over a week ago

00:10:43.580 a story on the front page of uh its media outlet called inside the fundamentalist movement in

00:10:52.820 canada and what we learned was it is basically a months-long uh investigative journalist uh piece

00:11:00.300 um the uh their lead investigative journalist was working on a piece on the the christian right or

00:11:07.080 the christian what they've called christian fundamentalism in canada and they dropped this

00:11:12.060 piece on the front page at the beginning of june timed of course for pride month uh in canada which

00:11:19.040 is now pride season um seems to last the entire summer uh well most of the year to be frank now

00:11:25.920 but certainly the summer but it was the beginning of it is june they dropped this right at the

00:11:30.640 beginning of june and they drop it with a radio or podcast documentary of about 40 minutes in length

00:11:36.600 and in this uh article which i know you've read joel and then in this documentary

00:11:43.000 they identify the ezra institute as the think tank at the heart of the christian fundamentalist

00:11:49.460 movement in canada and they position it as an expose now there are other faithful pastors and

00:11:55.820 leaders identified in the article several of whom are fellows of the ezra institute um some in fact

00:12:03.560 of our american fellows are identified and named and shamed um i'm doing quote marks here for those

00:12:10.760 who are listening only on audio um named and shamed on the uh in in the podcast including um

00:12:17.320 good friends of ours like doug wilson right um who's also named in the article and of course 0.84

00:12:22.820 the goal there is to tie these um these crazy canadian christians with crazy american fundamentalists 0.94

00:12:29.500 and isn't that you know terribly dangerous this awful christian right in america exporting their 0.96

00:12:35.660 ideas to canada and so on so this is the kind of idea that uh the article sort of centers around

00:12:42.940 that it it goes after the pastors who were and leaders who were vocal against the state overreach

00:12:50.680 and lockdowns and the massive overreach as you're aware of Joel in Canada where we even saw some of

00:12:57.360 our friends and colleagues go to prison for keeping their churches open or receive heavy

00:13:04.080 fines get charged and so on and basically what's clear is that about eight months ago

00:13:10.460 the CBC has decided to do a sting operation on these organizations and pastors or the Ezra

00:13:18.780 institute and some pastors of churches that were seen as catalyzing that movement of declaring the

00:13:26.920 lordship of christ the freedom of the church and that is vocal in expressing opposition and

00:13:32.520 resistance to the radical progressive sexual agenda the the so-called lgbtq2i alphabet soup

00:13:40.600 agenda that is being pushed ubiquitously now it's absolutely everywhere uh in canada

00:13:48.660 I know it's a major issue in the United States as well. But if you're not on board with that now, it's almost taken as read in the article and podcast that if you think that sexual relationships outside of marriage or that something that moves outside of that Christian norm, to regard that as sin is seen to be some kind of a crime, a social crime, certainly.

00:14:15.500 and um you know we'll maybe be able to talk about this in a moment i want to give you a chance to

00:14:22.100 respond but basically we've seen the passage of a number of bills in canada we've talked about this

00:14:27.860 before i think bill c4 which passed last year which does in fact criminalize pastors uh counselors

00:14:36.440 therapists anyone who would who is approached even if somebody in your own congregation in

00:14:42.780 canada were to come to you as a pastor and say i'm struggling with same-sex desire please help me

00:14:47.840 i need counsel i need prayer i need guidance if you were to do that and that was to be exposed

00:14:53.920 and taken to the authorities you could be charged with a crime and go to prison for up to five years

00:14:58.960 even if it's a consenting adult who has come to you so these are the kind of hypocrisy i mean

00:15:05.160 that's already tyrannical but beyond that um the hypocrisy is because you could take someone who

00:15:11.620 identifies as being heterosexual and you could seek to persuade and manipulate them for years

00:15:20.780 as a trained professional counselor with credentials and certifications and receive

00:15:27.460 payment and the whole time use your sessions to try to persuade them to be gay and you'd be fine, 0.84

00:15:33.440 right? It's not like they're saying, hey, you can't do this, but to be fair, you also can't 0.92

00:15:38.520 do that no they're not even trying to hide it they're just saying you can persuade someone to 0.66

00:15:42.520 be homosexual all day long and that's good that's great but if you try to persuade someone who

00:15:47.860 identifies as being homosexual to be heterosexual even if they ask for it even if they ask would 0.98

00:15:53.500 you help me in this regard and even if they're a consenting adult that that's a crime right yes 0.62

00:15:59.500 and that's and that's that's an essential uh point because that is why although they called it

00:16:05.580 the anti-conversion therapy law it's actually an anti-conversion law because if you move it in the

00:16:13.920 other direction if you were to have um somebody struggling say with same-sex desire come to you 0.69

00:16:21.220 it'd be perfectly acceptable to say to them i suggest and recommend homosexual pornography 0.81

00:16:27.080 i think you should pursue lifestyle i think you should uh get queer counseling and you refer them 0.99

00:16:33.320 to whatever for hormone therapy sex change surgery that is all legal in fact it's heartily 0.91

00:16:40.420 encouraged and indeed as you look at the schools in canada you're seeing basically grooming now

00:16:46.980 uh with drag queen events and radical lgbtq curricula that is telling students who are

00:16:53.700 artistic or sensitive uh if they're boys that they are in fact homosexual or trans or bi or whatever

00:16:59.880 And that kind of nurturing, it's gotten to the point where if you don't refer such children for hormone therapy, counseling in that direction, even surgery, you could actually have your children taken away from you by the state.

00:17:19.500 So that's why this law is actually not merely an anti-conversion therapy law, which is to target the mythical idea that there are pastors in church basements giving people electric shock treatment for homosexual desire.

00:17:34.220 It is an anti-conversion to Christianity law fundamentally for those in those sexual lifestyles. 0.59

00:17:42.220 That is essentially what it amounts to.

00:17:44.200 So the article, this sort of sting operation, and it was a sting because the journalist, if you can believe this, actually took his secret recording, discreet recording equipment, secretly tucked into his jacket into churches.

00:18:02.940 He went into church services and recorded a baptism service, thinking that he's going to get some sort of hot mic incident.

00:18:11.800 He then turns up at our conference in Unbeknown to Us under a false name at our Mission of God conference in Ontario last November and is recording people's conversations around in the exhibition center around book tables and so on, trying to get some sort of, you know, smoking gun.

00:18:33.440 And of course, it's an absolute nothing burger. He can't get anything nefarious at all. But the whole sort of thing is built up into this notion that, well, we all know that established orthodoxy, that our culture has accepted the basically queer theory as almost though it's as a religious orthodoxy, that everyone accepts that.

00:18:56.520 and we all know that that's right and yet look there are these awful people who actually believe

00:19:03.720 what the bible says they actually think what jesus taught about marriage is true can you believe this

00:19:12.340 these people should be taxed they should be marginalized they should be essentially persecuted

00:19:19.140 i mean that's the agenda of the article and so if you listen to the the radio documentary they've

00:19:26.040 created it's eerie violin music uh and um the whole thing is sort of a sort of a blair witch

00:19:34.500 project about the church um and everything is is is is made to sound sort of nefarious as though

00:19:41.980 you've got the secret underground uh fundamentalists behind behind closed gates on private

00:19:48.960 property holding their secretive meetings and conferences uh that is basically a target targeting

00:19:57.220 persecuting uh these sexual minorities as as they are called and so um on the one hand

00:20:06.400 you could say well you know some people's hearts sank when they saw this they think you know this

00:20:11.840 seems to be just this is now um a no holds barred you know what what the liberal government has

00:20:18.140 threatened to pregnancy care centers in its own manifesto to cancel them and their charitable

00:20:24.960 status and so on, that here now you've got basically the state media commissioning an

00:20:32.060 investigation into resistant pastors, faithful Christian leaders, Christian organizations that

00:20:37.780 advance the Christian world and life view, talk about the lordship of Jesus Christ, and teach

00:20:42.780 basic orthodox Christianity about marriage, human identity, and sexuality. And we really are

00:20:48.120 at the point now, Joel, where they're reaching so far in that a bill passed this year called Bill

00:20:54.900 C-11, which brings all broadcasting under the Canadian Broadcasting Act, basically under the

00:21:01.440 federal government's control, including user-generated content. So if you've got a

00:21:06.740 podcast or you've got a program that you're developing online with your organization or

00:21:12.840 your company or your charity or your church this now uh is brought under the uh the canadian

00:21:20.380 government's control essentially and then there's another bill in the waiting that's passed through

00:21:24.420 another reading of the first reading of parliament if people want to look it up bill 261

00:21:29.940 and and you look at these bills it is hard to believe they are actually being uh approved

00:21:36.760 in a western uh democracy uh but this is the sort of situation we're in but the silver lining

00:21:43.640 which you've alluded to is that actually this has been great publicity for the ezra institute

00:21:49.600 as a think tank at the heart of a a reform movement that sort of catalyzed a reform movement

00:21:58.680 of pastors of leaders of uh politicians one of the things that they're there they feature in the

00:22:05.600 documentary in the article is that it's catalyzed this this christian teaching has catalyzed people

00:22:11.020 getting involved in local politics on school boards um stepping in to to to say hang on a

00:22:18.360 minute why are we always sat on the sidelines why don't we engage in terms of biblical faith and the

00:22:22.960 lordship of jesus and uh so he claims that that his whole investigation is triggered by what he

00:22:30.040 saw as a huge surge in christian conservative engagement in local politics i think that claim

00:22:37.680 is strained i think it was um timing wise it was much more to do with what happened last over the

00:22:43.620 last three years but nonetheless it is true that many more christians now are kind of saying why

00:22:49.160 are we sat on the sidelines in pietism and quietism why aren't we applying the faith why aren't we

00:22:55.140 speaking for christ and his lordship and so there is a kind of backward a backhanded compliment

00:23:00.820 in all of this to the institute that has encouraged us that yes there are churches

00:23:07.140 leaders movements and people in uh getting involved in political life whose vision has

00:23:13.120 been catalyzed by the the quiet thinking and writing and speaking of the ezra institute over

00:23:19.280 the past 15 years and it's starting to bear real fruit which is an encouragement to us even though

00:23:25.020 the goal of these pieces is kind of to intimidate and threaten us and stigmatize us yeah so the goal

00:23:32.380 is to silence you but it is immensely encouraging that i mean they're essentially crediting the

00:23:38.980 ezra institute as being the the engine under the hood you know the engine within this car this

00:23:45.940 conservative engaging you know optimistic evangelical car that's starting to finally

00:23:52.320 engage, drive down the road when it comes to politics and culture and the arts and all these

00:23:59.260 different things. So they're essentially, you know, I mean, it really is high praise. You know,

00:24:02.880 I say that as a joke, but I also say that quite seriously that they're saying there's this

00:24:07.700 movement of conservative, biblical, you know, Bible-believing Christians that are finally

00:24:11.600 starting to not just have a privatized lordship of Jesus in their homes and their marriage and

00:24:17.420 for an hour and a half on Sunday morning, but they're actually taking their convictions,

00:24:21.140 their biblical convictions and applying all of Christ to all of life. And they're, you know,

00:24:26.440 crediting the Ezra Institute for being integral towards that end. The thing that I find funny,

00:24:32.760 so that's high praise. I would be encouraged by that. I have no doubt that you've received

00:24:37.340 more following and more encouragement and good press because of that. The thing that's funny

00:24:43.340 to me though, is that that sneaky Doug Wilson somehow, without even trying, worked his way in

00:24:50.740 to stealing your thunder. It's like the Ezra Institute, they deserve the praise. They have 0.87

00:24:56.160 been, you know, the roaring engine under the hood in Canada. But Doug Wilson, he's ultimately

00:25:02.680 responsible all the way in Moscow, Idaho. He's the guy who started all this. So when I was reading

00:25:08.960 the article and I saw Doug Wilson pop up, you know, the whole thing was Ezra Institute is

00:25:13.260 dangerous, dangerous, dangerous, and look at what they're doing. And then, you know, and then it was

00:25:18.060 like a line or something that said, you know, and, and they're influenced, uh, by, by Doug

00:25:23.200 Wilson. I was like, of course, like Doug Wilson. I mean, the guy is worthy of honor. He's done so

00:25:28.060 much good, but here he is, here he is getting praise even for what's going on in Canada. My

00:25:32.860 goodness, Doug Wilson, that's where the envy in me started to rise up and I had to resist the

00:25:37.840 temptation. So anyways, but I found the whole thing hilarious that, that, I mean, they really

00:25:42.680 do view it as a hit piece. And sadly, millions of people will read it in that light because

00:25:46.880 they're deceived they're blinded they're not they're not christian but for anyone not just

00:25:51.500 we're not talking just to the theonomic post-millennial you know whatever christian

00:25:55.900 national the average bible believing christian i i when i was reading the article i tried to read

00:26:00.920 it as just your average evangelical who just believes that the bible you know just believes

00:26:06.140 inerrancy of scripture those kinds of things um they're going to be reading this and they'll be

00:26:10.500 like and what what's the accusation what's the poison what's the dangerous thing what's the

00:26:14.820 charge, they're going to be reading this and say, well, I guess the Ezra Institute, not only are

00:26:20.480 they a positive force, but they would probably read this article and think that the Ezra Institute

00:26:26.120 is just a kind of a vanilla, bland, evangelical Christianity that maybe I should follow and see

00:26:32.600 what they have to say. You know what I mean? Like I've told Doug this last week, I was talking to

00:26:36.480 him and I said, you are quickly becoming, in many people's view within evangelicalism,

00:26:42.080 you're being seen now as quite moderate used to it was like the dark you know the dark web of

00:26:47.940 evangelicalism but now it's like you guys like you guys like doug who have been sounding this

00:26:54.000 alarm faithfully for a long time because of the state and the culture's incredible overreaction

00:26:59.880 because of the clown world we're now living in it has made all of your preaching and your writing

00:27:05.880 and those kinds of things seem quite reasonable don't you think it absolutely and and and i had

00:27:13.700 a number of letters of people saying you know their kind of question after reading the article

00:27:19.140 was well and i mean is is that it uh it really you know to to advance basic orthodox christian

00:27:30.100 truths that that this journalist actually thinks to expose because it's an expose a hit piece

00:27:36.520 base these organizations teaching traditional basic elementary biblical truths now puts you

00:27:44.160 on a sort of wacky fringe and extreme i think what's happening is it it is making a lot of

00:27:49.000 christians begin to realize uh hang on a second but i believe that so if if if that's me why aren't

00:27:59.140 what's going on? Why aren't I more engaged with? Who are these people? Who are these guys who are

00:28:05.040 actually sort of standing up for these things? So I do think it's had the opposite kind of effect.

00:28:11.240 It is kind of comical when the goal of referencing our American friends is, of course, that they

00:28:18.580 think that this will play very well to the Canadian reader, that here you have our big

00:28:26.540 bully brother south of the border because there is you know i lived in canada for 19 years there

00:28:31.480 is a bit of an inferiority complex up there um about being the poor spotty cousin you know

00:28:37.360 north of the 49th parallel and so it plays well to tie canadian conservative christians to the

00:28:48.040 the so-called fundamentalist right in uh america because that oh yes those those awful uh uh

00:28:56.520 you know, fundamentalist American Christians. They don't want that up in Canada. So that kind

00:29:01.680 of, they think that plays well to their audience, but I think they've just exposed themselves for

00:29:07.040 how out of touch actually with ordinary people and with reality they actually are. They refer

00:29:13.040 to, as you mentioned, to Doug, I think they refer to one of our, a couple of our other fellows,

00:29:18.320 Jeff Durbin at Apologia and Jeff Frentrella, who for years led the Blackstone Legal Academy for the

00:29:24.960 Alliance Defending Freedom. The Alliance Defending Freedom is cited as a hate group, for goodness

00:29:29.780 sake. That's one of the leading civil rights organizations in America. And the Canadian

00:29:36.260 meter identifies them as a hate organization. Just incredible. But, I mean, I discovered Doug

00:29:45.840 Wilson. I only got to know Doug Wilson a few years ago. I'd been running the Ezra Institute for a

00:29:50.520 decade before i i knew of doug wilson and i invited him up when i discovered him to come and speak at

00:29:57.140 one of our programs which he graciously did we had a lovely time together we went and visited with him

00:30:01.980 my wife and i down in moscow and so on and um uh uh we uh we've we've built uh something of a of a

00:30:10.440 decent relationship and um uh one of his um his network ben merkel is is one of our fellows at

00:30:17.980 the institute and so they're keen to kind of draw these lines of connectivity between various people

00:30:24.080 and organizations but i think this is the thing you'll really like joel because i know i know this

00:30:27.900 will appear this will appeal to you so what what they actually say in the article is that we

00:30:34.320 represent a muscular brand of christianity that is that differentiates itself from mainstream

00:30:43.660 evangelicalism. And what is very telling, and actually where we have to give some credit to

00:30:50.600 the CBC for being right in this respect, is that they say it's distinct from mainstream

00:30:56.700 evangelicalism. Why? Because mainstream evangelicalism, they claim, has accepted

00:31:03.540 its relativized place. It's accepted secular pluralism and is not concerned with applying

00:31:12.240 biblical values in various aspects of society. That's what the article says, that the mainstream

00:31:18.700 evangelicalism isn't interested in challenging secular pluralism, is not interested in applying

00:31:25.700 biblical faith. They've accepted the status quo. They're okay. We'll leave them alone. But this

00:31:31.120 muscular brand of Christianity that is concerned with Christ's lordship, with the idea of a

00:31:39.620 Christian social order, with applying biblical faith. Well, these are the people that are

00:31:46.660 dangerous. And I suppose, as you said, the encouraging thing here, the good thing here,

00:31:51.500 is that they view us as a threat, small as we are. And in terms of numbers, and again, I mean,

00:31:59.840 for the context in America, don't forget that there's only about 37 million people in Canada,

00:32:05.380 And only a tiny fraction, tiny minority of those are actually practicing Christians.

00:32:10.780 And then a fraction of those are even evangelical.

00:32:14.660 So we're a minority of a minority.

00:32:19.940 And yet they're coming after us because they see our message, not because of us and our wisdom and our strength and our power or our money or our powers of persuasion.

00:32:34.700 but because actually the word of god is a threat to sinful man to to those who are who are being

00:32:42.600 saved it's the savor of life but to those who are perishing it's a savor of death it's a threat

00:32:48.660 yeah what the it was john calvin i as memory serves who said that um those who challenge

00:32:55.220 and criticize the bible the word of god actually show themselves to feel under its power

00:33:01.880 what other reason could you possibly offer for targeting with such a lot of time and resources

00:33:08.820 and staffing and money to the point of making secret recordings a small network of reformed

00:33:16.940 christians speaking about christ kingship and lordship because actually there's power in that

00:33:21.700 word it's god's power it's the power of the holy spirit it's the power of the prophetic witness of

00:33:27.580 God's people. And what it made me think of most, Joel, was if just a small group of us can have

00:33:33.600 this much of an impact of being just humbly and simply faithful by the grace of God and in the

00:33:40.320 power of the Spirit to prophetically propose to our culture what God is saying, to prophetically

00:33:47.400 witness to the truth of Scripture and the Lordship of Jesus, what if the whole church,

00:33:52.660 right what if all of christ's church rose up in faithfulness and spoke the word of god wasn't it

00:34:00.700 moses that said would that all of god's people prophesied uh when when he's told what you know

00:34:07.740 that they're out there those guys are out there prophesying in the camp moses they're the people

00:34:11.740 are listening to them he says what that all god's people were prophets well what if as prophets

00:34:17.480 priests and kings we all as god's church entered into the the battle on uh for christ and his

00:34:26.160 kingdom what kind of an impact we have would we actually have when you can get uh multi-billion

00:34:32.700 dollar media organizations that represent federal government this upset about defending a christian

00:34:40.300 view of marriage right with such a small minority yeah if the whole evangelical church right if the

00:34:47.360 whole evangelical church was on board i mean it would be a juggernaut it would be a force to be

00:34:51.160 reckoned with i want to go back to a couple things that you said that were so insightful

00:34:54.200 uh number one the muscular right so described as like this muscular brand of christianity

00:34:59.780 note i want the listener to notice that um that the charge was not um was not in terms of particular

00:35:06.700 their doctrine and theologies it wasn't this extreme brand i'm sure they said that also but

00:35:11.900 but the extreme um characteristic was not in the article as far as i read it was never uh describing

00:35:18.640 they hold these extreme views that that the rest of christianity doesn't hold it was more so what

00:35:24.700 sets you guys apart was not um that that you hold a certain extreme you know abusive totalitarian

00:35:32.680 views of patriarchy or you hold this or that it was um no that this is what christians believe

00:35:38.800 but but they're applying it the muscular i find that very intriguing because the the qualify

00:35:45.420 qualifying term there is is not um that they think this crazy thing it's that they're doing

00:35:52.280 the things that all the christians think this thing and it's crazy but 99 of christians um

00:35:59.020 They may think it, but they at least have the common decency to think it in their private

00:36:04.140 heads.

00:36:04.740 They don't actually live it.

00:36:06.220 They don't actually, and it just, it makes me think, you know, so muscular, another word

00:36:10.300 you could use it, masculine, right?

00:36:11.940 And so essentially what they're saying, it's not an accusation towards you, but it really

00:36:16.880 is.

00:36:17.440 If the church would be humble enough to hear it, it is an indictment on the evangelical

00:36:21.400 church as a whole.

00:36:23.080 What they're saying is muscular, we'll replace that with masculine and contrast it with,

00:36:27.700 then what would, by way of implication, what would that mean for the whole of evangelicalism?

00:36:32.620 You have a masculine group and an effeminate group. You have a potent group and an impotent

00:36:37.360 group. You have a public group and a private group. You have a bold and courageous group

00:36:43.040 and a shamed group. And again, it's not the distinction between extreme forms of doctrines

00:36:49.860 versus moderate and reasonable doctrines. No, it's all in not the believing or the thinking

00:36:56.260 or the substance of theology itself, it's all in the behavior. It's in the living out of that

00:37:02.500 theology. It's in the application. And I've been saying this for a while, and I can't help but

00:37:06.840 think of it, but I've been describing when I talk to people about faithful preaching, because all

00:37:12.040 this comes down to discipleship. In our pulpits, how are we shaping the people of God? What are

00:37:17.300 we teaching them? And when it comes to preaching, I think for a long time, sadly, even not just

00:37:22.340 evangelicalism as a whole, but even the Reformed camp within evangelicalism, we have said that

00:37:28.700 faithful preaching is comprised of only two components. One, revelation. Two, interpretation.

00:37:36.040 Revelation is the revelation of God, that the man of God, when he steps behind the pulpit in front

00:37:41.200 of the people of God on the Lord's day, he does not say, I have a dream. He does not say, I have

00:37:45.620 an idea or I have a church growth strategy, but rather he says, I have a text. So the revelation

00:37:51.360 is the infallible, inherent revelation of God's law word, special revelation, the scripture.

00:37:58.340 I have a text. So it's revelation. And then secondly, it is interpretation. And that would

00:38:03.700 be a faithful, not eisegesis, reading in the thoughts and opinions of man into the text,

00:38:09.140 but an exegesis reading out of the text, the clear biblical interpretation, what God intends

00:38:15.380 to convey in that particular text of scripture.

00:38:18.520 So revelation, God's word, interpretation, a faithful exegesis of God's word.

00:38:23.180 And even within the reformed camp of evangelicalism, sadly, that's where most preaching stops,

00:38:29.100 which I would say, if that is where the preaching stops, that is the equivalent of what I would

00:38:34.280 describe as simply an audible commentary on the Lord's day.

00:38:38.700 But it is not a sermon.

00:38:40.320 What I strongly insist when it comes to young preachers in the pulpit, what they need to be doing faithfully is not two components, but three. It is revelation, interpretation, application. And that's where we've fallen short.

00:38:54.980 And so my point is to say, what made you, guys like Ezra Institute, guys like Apologia, guys like Doug Wilson, guys like myself, what is causing us to be singled out, it's not at the end of the day that we have in that second piece, Revelation, we have the same Bible.

00:39:12.820 Wherever you're at with evangelicalism, Revelation, we're on the same page.

00:39:17.000 We've got the Bible.

00:39:17.900 The same 66 books, you've got them, I've got them.

00:39:20.540 The Baptist, the Presbyterian, the Anglican, we've got them.

00:39:22.880 interpretation with not all evangelicals, but at least now speaking about the reform camp within

00:39:29.240 evangelicalism, for the most part, we agree on that second piece as well. We would have the same,

00:39:34.320 very similar exegesis interpreting. We'd say, this is the text and this is what it means.

00:39:39.480 And we would agree with most of our reformed brothers. But what gets you blacklisted,

00:39:44.380 What puts you on a very short list of individuals to have an entire nationwide organization come after you, trying to write a hit piece on you, what gets you on that list is not the Bible, Revelation, and interpretation, a faithful, even reformed exegesis of that Revelation.

00:40:07.080 but it's the last piece the muscular piece the potent piece the masculine piece the practical

00:40:13.060 doing living behavioral piece which is application that the man of god when he preaches he says this

00:40:20.520 is the word of the lord then he says this is what the word of the lord means but then he eventually

00:40:25.700 at some point what takes it from audible commentary to actual sermon preaching is he also says and in

00:40:32.260 light of this, this is what you, people of God, must do. You have to do something. Do something

00:40:38.920 in order to merit the saving favor of God? No, not do something to be saved, but you do have to

00:40:44.320 do something in obedience to the law word of Jesus Christ as a response of gratitude for the free

00:40:50.120 salvation we've received by grace alone, through faith alone, and Christ alone. The gospel gives

00:40:55.040 us something to do. The gospel itself is a command. We are saved by grace alone, not by works of the

00:41:01.620 flesh so that no man can boast, but we are called to obey the law word of God in practical ways to

00:41:08.300 live out our faith. And the guys who are preaching that message that are actually preaching not

00:41:13.520 gospel myopticism, but both law and gospel, that the gospel gives us something to do.

00:41:19.540 It doesn't just tell us how to think privately, but how to live publicly. Those are the guys who

00:41:25.580 making the short list those are the guys who are being deemed as dangerous enemies of the state

00:41:31.720 which again i cannot under uh under sell how high of praise that actually is it's the guys who are

00:41:39.060 not that they're holding to some cultish dogma it's simply the guys holding to generally the

00:41:44.880 same theology that every other evangelical holds to but the guys who actually do it and that should

00:41:51.540 be viewed by the average evangelical as an indictment, as a loving chastisement from the

00:42:00.320 Lord using the rod in this instance of the Canada state media. He's using them merely as an

00:42:07.780 instrument, his rod bringing, I see it as lovingly fatherly discipline to all the guys within the

00:42:15.480 church that genuinely are born again, genuinely are regenerate children of God, but who haven't

00:42:20.920 made this short list who aren't seen as a threat. And I see it as the Lord saying, hey, that's not

00:42:27.980 good. Why are you not seen as a threat? Jesus had enemies. Why don't you? So anyways, that's my take

00:42:35.640 on the piece. Well, I actually think that that's a fascinating articulation of the issue. If you

00:42:45.160 think about the even the prophetic history of israel why was elijah in the end considered a

00:42:54.840 threat was it because he you know wandered around in in very poor clothes and uh was was a pilgrim

00:43:03.340 and a wanderer uh he didn't have a power base as such but he was called a troubler of israel

00:43:10.260 right that's how ahab and and jezebel regarded him he was a troubler of israel why because

00:43:16.920 he meant business with the application of the word of god and of course we see that most

00:43:22.960 powerfully in the the incident at uh with the against the prophets of baal but i think what's

00:43:29.440 important about what you're saying there is that it highlights a deficit in mainstream evangelical

00:43:37.740 and even reformed understanding of biblical authority, because we're accustomed to speaking

00:43:43.100 of the inspiration, the plenary inspiration of the Bible, even the inerrancy of scripture and

00:43:48.700 its authority in the abstract. But if we don't actually apply it, we don't really believe in

00:43:55.960 its material authority. We believe in the abstract sense that it is the word of God,

00:44:03.520 that it's inspired by god and that it's god breathed and that god's word is inerrant

00:44:11.020 but then going from that and so there's a certain sense that that's a certain form of belief in

00:44:17.680 authority but it remains in the abstract what we find is that and what has been troubling to find

00:44:25.100 is that seemingly so many evangelical and even reformed people don't really believe in the

00:44:32.540 Bible's material authority, how it actually applies. So I would say that it's manifest in

00:44:43.000 the failures of preaching that you're talking about, but its root is in actually an inadequate

00:44:48.960 doctrine of authority. The material authority of scripture is not really believed. It's not

00:44:55.320 authoritative for the practice of everyday life in all these areas, maybe in my prayer life,

00:45:01.100 in my ecclesiastical life perhaps in my personal life uh and certainly between my ears but its

00:45:09.120 material authority for all of life is not accepted and this was uh really pictured for me in the

00:45:18.140 canadian landscape when joel get this this this article comes out this documentary comes out

00:45:28.800 So you've got a situation where a small group of faithful Orthodox Christians, because if you've rightly said, the article does not say, here are the unorthodox, heterodox, extremist, and virulently opposed beliefs in the Christian community of these radicals.

00:45:49.260 Marriage.

00:45:50.600 No, that's not the charge.

00:45:54.820 in fact they refer to an uh the calvinism and they refer to in the article refers to a uh the

00:46:03.300 reformed branch of christianity extreme form of calvinism that actually believes you apply

00:46:08.460 the word of god and but this guy admits ironically the the the actual the actual uh extreme version

00:46:15.980 of calvinism also known as hyper calvinism is is quite the opposite that would be that you don't

00:46:21.180 apply anything right you just believe that because god is sovereign he's just gonna right

00:46:24.700 So what they're describing, they're saying, oh, this extreme Calvinism, and the extreme Calvinism that they then go on to describe is guys who believe God's sovereign, but then also roll up their sleeves and get to work, which is anything but extreme Calvinism.

00:46:38.660 Precisely.

00:46:39.140 It's just so funny.

00:46:39.980 Who actually get engaged.

00:46:41.380 But, you know, to be understanding of their errors here, it's that this man admits, this journalist admits, that he hadn't even heard of the reformed faith before doing this article.

00:46:52.620 So they're wading into territory they don't understand. But the fascinating thing was that this article comes out. We're condemned for upholding simple Orthodox Christian beliefs. What is the response then of the Gospel Coalition in Canada?

00:47:11.360 What do you think, what would you imagine the response of faithful evangelicals, reformed evangelicals being attacked by the state media giant, the largest media organization in Canada, 1.6 billion a year.

00:47:31.040 you would imagine that other evangelicals would rush to the defense of these faithful pastors

00:47:37.260 and the ezra institute seeking to uphold the lordship of jesus and defend uh marriage and

00:47:44.840 human male and female identity you would you would i would not expect that not from the gospel

00:47:50.200 coalition not for a second i can guess what the response would be the response would be that uh

00:47:54.620 we have all this cultural capital that we've accrued by being winsome and kind and neighborly

00:47:59.420 over the course of decades, a.k.a. by being impotent and being very diligent not to do

00:48:03.960 anything at any single point. And here you are ruining our credibility. It's a stain on our

00:48:10.020 biblical witness. You are hurting our witness. And I would assume that they would even go so far

00:48:15.620 as to say that the multi-billion dollar industry is somehow the victim and that David, you know,

00:48:23.240 Goliath is the victim and that David is an oppressor. Am I close?

00:48:27.160 you're very close basically what they immediately did in canada was to um to post a uh very poor

00:48:37.920 and weak uh two kingdoms critique of rj rush duty that is their immediate response it's not

00:48:47.260 rally around those and then of course what follows is then a series of articles being posted about

00:48:53.140 yes winsomeness and what uh what true defense of the faith really looks like and so on and so forth

00:48:59.580 not a snot the single attempt to to speak up and stand up for fellow believers in in the fray

00:49:08.860 on the front line uh but actually which which just illustrated ironically the irony was so thick

00:49:16.700 because all they did was perfectly illustrate the truth of what the journalists were saying

00:49:20.820 about this muscular brand of christianity over against mainstream evangelicalism uninterested

00:49:27.820 in applying biblical faith they were literally it was like yep exhibit a here it is immediately

00:49:34.620 not a not an article defending those defending the faith uh and it was just it was such a shame

00:49:41.760 to see and very sad to be honest to see uh supposedly a big 10 organization

00:49:48.280 uh taking the side effectively of the cbc against fellow reformed evangelicals who are actually

00:49:59.780 speaking for christ in the public space but that's where we are very very disheartening and

00:50:04.680 we've known this for a while in regards to the gospel coalition and many others it's funny you

00:50:09.060 know big tent is an appropriate term i i know why you used it but that what i've realized is it's

00:50:15.200 actually not uh um i i thought of certain organizations as being big tent ecumenical

00:50:21.540 in the sense that um you know you could be anglican you could be baptist you could be

00:50:25.020 presbyterian you could be pentecostal you know it's all encompassing um but again that's only

00:50:31.620 in the sphere of doctrine what you believe but it's actually a very small tent with a very narrow

00:50:38.540 conviction statement of the unwritten statement of faith that's actually supreme um and and that's

00:50:44.660 in terms of um uh there's a broad consensus and allowance in terms of what you believe

00:50:50.760 but very very strict criteria for how you live what you're allowed to do so that's where the

00:50:58.700 gospel coalition is not a big tent at all but in fact i would argue cultish um in many ways of just

00:51:04.800 uh that you know when we say jump you say how high and in the gospel coalition in their case

00:51:10.380 it would be when we tell you never to jump, you don't jump. When we say never move, you don't

00:51:15.320 move. When we say talk quieter. And so the common, where I would say it's narrow, where there's very

00:51:23.960 strict criteria for belonging to this family is a very diligent commitment to being private. It's

00:51:34.600 all about privatization it's private private private so you can be private baptist or you can

00:51:39.780 be private paedo baptist you can be private um continuationist or charismatic or cessationist

00:51:45.340 you can be private this private that so broad consensus broad allowance at the level of what

00:51:50.400 you believe so long as you believe it uh privately but if you believe that christ is a public king

00:51:57.920 and that we have a public faith and you're going to publicly live it out um then it really wouldn't

00:52:04.580 matter you if you could be pentecostal doing what you're doing joe and and you would be blacklisted

00:52:09.500 by the gospel coalition you could be you know presbyterian or you could be baptist or you could

00:52:13.140 be anglican and it kind of seems like you might be all those but but you know as long as you're

00:52:18.400 doing it publicly that's where you're going to um that's where you're gonna shade is going to be

00:52:23.380 cast on you well that's where you basically christianity is being reduced to a mystery

00:52:27.680 religion and we learned that harsh lesson uh during the whole um covid era when uh i was

00:52:37.720 initially asked to write an article by the gospel coalition in canada as to why some pastors were

00:52:44.560 resisting and had a different perspective i wrote the article and the the powers within the

00:52:52.760 organization then refused to publish it and so my most read article over the last few years

00:52:57.460 that uh in the end broke the website that was hosting it um was called the gospel coalition

00:53:04.640 article that never was uh and it was a it was a presentation of why we were resisting

00:53:12.180 these infringements on the jurisdiction and sphere sovereignty of the life of the church

00:53:19.460 And they steadfastly refused to publish it or engage with it. And that's when we did have a bitter experience of the truth of what you're saying there, that it didn't matter that we were Orthodox, Reformed evangelicals.

00:53:33.500 The big tent didn't apply when it came to actually the material authority of the Bible and the application of Christ's lordship into culture, into life, into the reality of the daily lived experience of the believer outside the institution of the church.

00:53:54.340 Yep, I completely agree.

00:53:56.680 Well, I am glad that you guys are still fighting and that there are others with you.

00:54:01.800 What do you want to end on here?

00:54:03.420 What's the final word? And then also maybe a list of some of those others that we can be praying for, praying for Ezra Institute, but some of the other guys who made the article in Canada who greatly need the prayers and support of the saints. Go ahead and help us land the plane.

00:54:18.560 Sure.

00:54:18.800 Well, just, you know, what we'd be really grateful for is a couple of things.

00:54:23.980 Very quickly, let's be mindful that what we've talked about today from where the Institute is coming from,

00:54:33.100 and I know you're coming from, is that this emerges from a biblical understanding of sphere sovereignty

00:54:39.380 and a biblical understanding of the law of God.

00:54:42.460 And these are the kingdom tools and the kingdom manifesto, the fullness of God's law word and the marvelous creational reality of sphere sovereignty that God has established for creation and for culture.

00:55:01.220 that when we live in terms of his word in the light of these areas of authority, freedom and

00:55:07.260 authority properly balanced, then we actually find ourselves applying a biblical worldview.

00:55:12.280 And I'd encourage readers who want to explore that further to investigate my books, Mission of

00:55:17.480 God and Ruler of Kings, which I know, Joel, you have very kindly promoted before. And secondly,

00:55:22.280 I would say, please pray for the church in Canada and for those who are actually, you know, for

00:55:28.600 america it it it's just that seemingly that uh small fairly irrelevant country um north of the

00:55:35.980 north of the border uh where it's really cold um and um you know don't need to worry about them too

00:55:42.820 much they're really nice polite folk well you know there are lots of lovely nice polite uh people

00:55:48.360 but there are lots of faithful uh evangelical reform people in canada who are struggling who

00:55:53.860 are suffering, who are experiencing marginalization, oppression, persecution. And there's some very

00:56:00.300 courageous pastors and leaders who are there. And so especially think of our fellows like

00:56:06.880 Dr. Aaron Rock, pastoring in Windsor, and dear brothers like Jacob Rayum, pastoring in Waterloo.

00:56:14.500 These men were both mentioned and featured in the article and in the documentary. And of course,

00:56:21.460 There are other brothers out in Western Canada, Tim Stevens, James Coates, who were jailed during the lockdown period.

00:56:29.220 Their churches are growing and being blessed and they need your prayers.

00:56:32.740 But Pray for Canada as it faces, really, a tsunami of legislation of bills over the last 12 months and going on into these bills that are being tabled that are steadily eroding freedom of speech, freedom of expression, and the freedom of the church.

00:56:52.980 And these are very, very serious issues for Canadian Christians.

00:56:56.860 So pray for the Ezra Institute. We've just hired a new Canadian director, a wonderful pastor and leader who has spoken out bravely defending the faith and the freedom of the church.

00:57:06.900 Reverend Nathan Wright has been pastoring a church of around a thousand people, and we've just appointed him as our new Canadian director.

00:57:15.320 So please pray for him, but pray for these other pastors that I've mentioned in their churches and their ministries and pray for the Christians in Canada as they face this onslaught of legislation that God would continue to nurture and build up and raise up this network of faithful grassroots Christian reform movement that in God's good time, because we know this will happen by the grace of God, will turn the tide in a nation that is defying.

00:57:45.320 the Lord God, the Lord of hosts, and the Lordship of Jesus Christ.

00:57:52.340 Amen.

00:57:53.420 All right.

00:57:53.860 Well, Dr. Boot, thank you so much for coming on the show.

00:57:56.480 We really appreciate it, and I look forward to talking to you again in the very near future.

00:58:01.680 Thanks again, Joel.

00:58:02.580 God bless.

00:58:03.220 All right.

00:58:03.580 Hold up.

00:58:03.940 You're not going to want to miss this.

00:58:04.920 I'm going to tell you exactly how our spring 2024 conference is going to go down.

00:58:09.420 Here's the title of the conference, Blueprints for Christendom 2.0.

00:58:13.860 Subtitle, Seven Doctrines for Ruling the World.

00:58:17.320 We're going to have seven primary sessions covering each of these doctrines for ruling

00:58:22.780 the world righteously.

00:58:24.220 Number one, Reformed Confessionalism.

00:58:26.920 That's going to be Pastor Doug Wilson preaching on that topic.

00:58:30.180 Then we've got Covenant Theology with Pastor Brian Sauve.

00:58:33.540 Then we've got Biblical Patriarchy with Pastor Michael Foster.

00:58:37.440 Then we've got Presuppositionalism with Dr. Joseph Boot.

00:58:41.160 Then we've got Kuyperianism, All of Christ for All of Life, where we're going to welcome

00:58:46.260 Pastor Doug Wilson back for a second session.

00:58:49.280 Then we've got General Equity Theonomy.

00:58:51.900 We're going to have Dr. Joseph Boot come and do a second session on that topic.

00:58:56.060 And then lastly, we'll have Pastor Dale Partridge on Postmillennial Eschatology.

00:59:00.760 In addition to these seven sessions, we're also going to have not one, but two live podcasts.

00:59:06.840 On the first day of the conference, that's Friday, March 1st, we're going to have a live

00:59:11.440 Theology Applied podcast.

00:59:13.560 I'll be on the stage hosting the discussion with Douglas Wilson, Michael Foster, and Eric

00:59:19.020 Kahn from It's Good to Be a Man.

00:59:21.020 The topic is going to be all about biblical patriarchy.

00:59:24.320 We're going to specifically be parsing out, distinguishing the biblical doctrinal differences

00:59:29.740 between patriarchy and complementarianism.

00:59:32.740 Again, that's Friday, March 1st, the first day of the conference, a live Theology Applied

00:59:37.780 podcast on biblical patriarchy.

00:59:40.100 Then we're going to have the next day, that's Saturday, March 2nd, a live Haunted Cosmos

00:59:46.000 podcast.

00:59:46.920 I'll be hosting this discussion with Brian Sauve and Ben Garrett.

00:59:50.960 We're going to be talking about the Nephilim.

00:59:52.580 We're going to be talking about the Watchers.

00:59:54.260 We're going to be talking about what creatures currently are living underneath the surface

00:59:58.380 of the earth and chasms of the deep.

01:00:00.340 It's going to be wacky.

01:00:01.360 It's going to be weird, but it will also be thoroughly biblical and incredibly unhinged.

01:00:06.900 So you're not going to want to miss these two live podcasts, Theology Applied, on Friday,

01:00:11.760 March 1st, the first day of the conference on biblical patriarchy with Doug Wilson, Michael

01:00:16.840 Foster, Eric Kahn, and myself.

01:00:18.620 And then the next day of the conference, Saturday, March 2nd, a live Haunted Cosmos podcast with

01:00:24.800 Brian Sauve and Ben Garrett and myself on the Nephilim, the Watchers, and What Lies

01:00:29.920 under the surface of the earth. And then the conference will hold over for one final, the

01:00:35.100 third and final day. That's going to be the Lord's day Sunday, March 3rd, where one of our speakers

01:00:40.780 will be holding over to preach the Lord's day sermon. And I'll be leading us in worship through

01:00:45.940 the liturgy. So we've got three days, a Friday, Saturday, Sunday, March 1st, 2nd, and 3rd of 2024

01:00:52.800 blueprints for Christendom 2.0, seven doctrines for ruling the world. You're not going to want

01:00:59.120 to miss this conference. Our early bird rate is still available, but only for a very short period

01:01:05.000 of time. We are ending the early bird rate on August 31st at 11 59 PM. That will be the final

01:01:11.920 chance to get into this conference at an affordable, cheap rate. All right. So go and

01:01:17.960 take advantage of the early bird rate right now by going to right response conference.com. Again,

01:01:23.960 That's rightresponseconference.com to register for Blueprints for Christendom 2.0, March 1st,

01:01:31.880 2nd, and 3rd, 2024. Register today.

The NXR Podcast - July 18, 2023

THEOLOGY APPLIED - The Latest Hit-Piece On Joe Boot, Doug Wilson, and Apologia ｜ with Joe Boot

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