In this episode, Pastor Joel Webin is joined by his regular guest, Dr. Joseph Boot, to discuss a hit piece that was recently published by The Ezra Institute. Dr. Boot is the President of the Ezra Institute, as well as the Christchurch of Moscow, Idaho, Christchurch, Doug Wilson, and Apologia. In this piece, he argues that some progressive Western governments don t like the idea of basic, what we would consider to be basic, orthodox Christianity.
00:06:25.300All right, so let's go ahead and dive into it.
00:06:27.240We're going to talk about, you know, it'll be hard for me
00:06:31.540over the course of this episode to resist the temptation to covet uh to envy but you recently
00:06:37.160received such high praise um from um from from canada and so do you want to tell our listeners
00:06:44.140about the incredible compliments that you've received recently yeah yeah you're making me um
00:06:51.980you're making me choke it out there yeah i mean that's one way of putting it uh high praise and
00:06:57.340Compliments. Yeah. So basically what happened, which I know will be a little bit of a struggle for some some Americans to get their heads around that these things are this degree of a problem.
00:07:08.980But basically, in Canada, there's very little. In fact, there's no mainstream media alternative to what we would call the progressive, neo-Marxist, secular media.
00:07:28.780The small attempts that have been made to create something mainstream have not survived any length of time.
00:07:34.360They've been basically regulated out of existence. And today, all you've got is a handful of online attempts at building some kind of an online audience that would offer any kind of alternative media to basically the mainstream progressive agenda.
00:07:53.280and uh the the biggest one is called the cbc the cbc for um all my american friends there is the
00:08:02.420is the equivalent of the bbc in england most people will have heard of the bbc uh
00:08:10.460many would not have heard of the cbc but the cbc just means the the canadian broadcasting
00:08:16.080corporation which we affectionately call the communist broadcasting corporation or canada
00:08:22.000broadcasting communism uh but essentially that's the that's the agenda and it receives again maybe
00:08:30.260a bit difficult for americans to get their head around this but they receive 1.3 billion a year
00:08:36.620in taxpayer funds so it's wow it's essentially state media about 70 percent of its funding
00:08:42.840annually comes from the state varies between 1.2 and 1.3 billion which is why i think even elon
00:08:49.560musk recently tagged uh the cbc's twitter account as state media um i don't know how long that
00:08:58.820lasted but it was certain because there were some complaints but it but it was certainly
00:09:01.900a while and uh so it's very difficult for christians generally to get a voice in the media
00:09:11.240to to have uh their their their message fairly represented or for there even to be what we would
00:09:18.400call a conservative voice so it's not like the u.s where you can think of major massive media
00:09:25.380corporations like fox that would be coming from a completely different perspective to cnn
00:09:30.540um they were they were yeah fox has not has not been so great lately but but you're right
00:09:37.560your point still stands yeah well yeah they lost tucker and replaced essentially replaced tucker
00:09:43.760with um with bruce jenner dressed up as a woman you know it's like like uh bruce jenner now is a
00:09:51.280regular contributor with fox so it's just it's hilarious but any but your point is well taken
00:09:56.560you're right for up until recently fox has been you know generally conservative and it's a juggernaut
00:10:02.660um in the u.s and you're right there's no there's no concept of that uh in canada is what you're
00:10:07.300saying right there's no concept of that at all and and so i think sometimes americans will look
00:10:12.300at other western countries and think well you know what's your equivalent of fox news well
00:10:16.120there isn't one in canada uh there is in the uk where i am um now there is a competing
00:10:22.820conservative media but but not in canada anyway that's the sort of backdrop to uh what i wanted
00:10:30.280to to share with you uh which you've uh said is the the the the heaping of praise upon the
00:10:36.420recently received is that um the national media in canada recently ran just over a week ago
00:10:43.580a story on the front page of uh its media outlet called inside the fundamentalist movement in
00:10:52.820canada and what we learned was it is basically a months-long uh investigative journalist uh piece
00:11:00.300um the uh their lead investigative journalist was working on a piece on the the christian right or
00:11:07.080the christian what they've called christian fundamentalism in canada and they dropped this
00:11:12.060piece on the front page at the beginning of june timed of course for pride month uh in canada which
00:11:19.040is now pride season um seems to last the entire summer uh well most of the year to be frank now
00:11:25.920but certainly the summer but it was the beginning of it is june they dropped this right at the
00:11:30.640beginning of june and they drop it with a radio or podcast documentary of about 40 minutes in length
00:11:36.600and in this uh article which i know you've read joel and then in this documentary
00:11:43.000they identify the ezra institute as the think tank at the heart of the christian fundamentalist
00:11:49.460movement in canada and they position it as an expose now there are other faithful pastors and
00:11:55.820leaders identified in the article several of whom are fellows of the ezra institute um some in fact
00:12:03.560of our american fellows are identified and named and shamed um i'm doing quote marks here for those
00:12:10.760who are listening only on audio um named and shamed on the uh in in the podcast including um
00:12:17.320good friends of ours like doug wilson right um who's also named in the article and of course0.84
00:12:22.820the goal there is to tie these um these crazy canadian christians with crazy american fundamentalists0.94
00:12:29.500and isn't that you know terribly dangerous this awful christian right in america exporting their0.96
00:12:35.660ideas to canada and so on so this is the kind of idea that uh the article sort of centers around
00:12:42.940that it it goes after the pastors who were and leaders who were vocal against the state overreach
00:12:50.680and lockdowns and the massive overreach as you're aware of Joel in Canada where we even saw some of
00:12:57.360our friends and colleagues go to prison for keeping their churches open or receive heavy
00:13:04.080fines get charged and so on and basically what's clear is that about eight months ago
00:13:10.460the CBC has decided to do a sting operation on these organizations and pastors or the Ezra
00:13:18.780institute and some pastors of churches that were seen as catalyzing that movement of declaring the
00:13:26.920lordship of christ the freedom of the church and that is vocal in expressing opposition and
00:13:32.520resistance to the radical progressive sexual agenda the the so-called lgbtq2i alphabet soup
00:13:40.600agenda that is being pushed ubiquitously now it's absolutely everywhere uh in canada
00:13:48.660I know it's a major issue in the United States as well. But if you're not on board with that now, it's almost taken as read in the article and podcast that if you think that sexual relationships outside of marriage or that something that moves outside of that Christian norm, to regard that as sin is seen to be some kind of a crime, a social crime, certainly.
00:14:15.500and um you know we'll maybe be able to talk about this in a moment i want to give you a chance to
00:14:22.100respond but basically we've seen the passage of a number of bills in canada we've talked about this
00:14:27.860before i think bill c4 which passed last year which does in fact criminalize pastors uh counselors
00:14:36.440therapists anyone who would who is approached even if somebody in your own congregation in
00:14:42.780canada were to come to you as a pastor and say i'm struggling with same-sex desire please help me
00:14:47.840i need counsel i need prayer i need guidance if you were to do that and that was to be exposed
00:14:53.920and taken to the authorities you could be charged with a crime and go to prison for up to five years
00:14:58.960even if it's a consenting adult who has come to you so these are the kind of hypocrisy i mean
00:15:05.160that's already tyrannical but beyond that um the hypocrisy is because you could take someone who
00:15:11.620identifies as being heterosexual and you could seek to persuade and manipulate them for years
00:15:20.780as a trained professional counselor with credentials and certifications and receive
00:15:27.460payment and the whole time use your sessions to try to persuade them to be gay and you'd be fine,0.84
00:15:33.440right? It's not like they're saying, hey, you can't do this, but to be fair, you also can't0.92
00:15:38.520do that no they're not even trying to hide it they're just saying you can persuade someone to0.66
00:15:42.520be homosexual all day long and that's good that's great but if you try to persuade someone who
00:15:47.860identifies as being homosexual to be heterosexual even if they ask for it even if they ask would0.98
00:15:53.500you help me in this regard and even if they're a consenting adult that that's a crime right yes0.62
00:15:59.500and that's and that's that's an essential uh point because that is why although they called it
00:16:05.580the anti-conversion therapy law it's actually an anti-conversion law because if you move it in the
00:16:13.920other direction if you were to have um somebody struggling say with same-sex desire come to you0.69
00:16:21.220it'd be perfectly acceptable to say to them i suggest and recommend homosexual pornography0.81
00:16:27.080i think you should pursue lifestyle i think you should uh get queer counseling and you refer them0.99
00:16:33.320to whatever for hormone therapy sex change surgery that is all legal in fact it's heartily0.91
00:16:40.420encouraged and indeed as you look at the schools in canada you're seeing basically grooming now
00:16:46.980uh with drag queen events and radical lgbtq curricula that is telling students who are
00:16:53.700artistic or sensitive uh if they're boys that they are in fact homosexual or trans or bi or whatever
00:16:59.880And that kind of nurturing, it's gotten to the point where if you don't refer such children for hormone therapy, counseling in that direction, even surgery, you could actually have your children taken away from you by the state.
00:17:19.500So that's why this law is actually not merely an anti-conversion therapy law, which is to target the mythical idea that there are pastors in church basements giving people electric shock treatment for homosexual desire.
00:17:34.220It is an anti-conversion to Christianity law fundamentally for those in those sexual lifestyles.0.59
00:17:42.220That is essentially what it amounts to.
00:17:44.200So the article, this sort of sting operation, and it was a sting because the journalist, if you can believe this, actually took his secret recording, discreet recording equipment, secretly tucked into his jacket into churches.
00:18:02.940He went into church services and recorded a baptism service, thinking that he's going to get some sort of hot mic incident.
00:18:11.800He then turns up at our conference in Unbeknown to Us under a false name at our Mission of God conference in Ontario last November and is recording people's conversations around in the exhibition center around book tables and so on, trying to get some sort of, you know, smoking gun.
00:18:33.440And of course, it's an absolute nothing burger. He can't get anything nefarious at all. But the whole sort of thing is built up into this notion that, well, we all know that established orthodoxy, that our culture has accepted the basically queer theory as almost though it's as a religious orthodoxy, that everyone accepts that.
00:18:56.520and we all know that that's right and yet look there are these awful people who actually believe
00:19:03.720what the bible says they actually think what jesus taught about marriage is true can you believe this
00:19:12.340these people should be taxed they should be marginalized they should be essentially persecuted
00:19:19.140i mean that's the agenda of the article and so if you listen to the the radio documentary they've
00:19:26.040created it's eerie violin music uh and um the whole thing is sort of a sort of a blair witch
00:19:34.500project about the church um and everything is is is is made to sound sort of nefarious as though
00:19:41.980you've got the secret underground uh fundamentalists behind behind closed gates on private
00:19:48.960property holding their secretive meetings and conferences uh that is basically a target targeting
00:19:57.220persecuting uh these sexual minorities as as they are called and so um on the one hand
00:20:06.400you could say well you know some people's hearts sank when they saw this they think you know this
00:20:11.840seems to be just this is now um a no holds barred you know what what the liberal government has
00:20:18.140threatened to pregnancy care centers in its own manifesto to cancel them and their charitable
00:20:24.960status and so on, that here now you've got basically the state media commissioning an
00:20:32.060investigation into resistant pastors, faithful Christian leaders, Christian organizations that
00:20:37.780advance the Christian world and life view, talk about the lordship of Jesus Christ, and teach
00:20:42.780basic orthodox Christianity about marriage, human identity, and sexuality. And we really are
00:20:48.120at the point now, Joel, where they're reaching so far in that a bill passed this year called Bill
00:20:54.900C-11, which brings all broadcasting under the Canadian Broadcasting Act, basically under the
00:21:01.440federal government's control, including user-generated content. So if you've got a
00:21:06.740podcast or you've got a program that you're developing online with your organization or
00:21:12.840your company or your charity or your church this now uh is brought under the uh the canadian
00:21:20.380government's control essentially and then there's another bill in the waiting that's passed through
00:21:24.420another reading of the first reading of parliament if people want to look it up bill 261
00:21:29.940and and you look at these bills it is hard to believe they are actually being uh approved
00:21:36.760in a western uh democracy uh but this is the sort of situation we're in but the silver lining
00:21:43.640which you've alluded to is that actually this has been great publicity for the ezra institute
00:21:49.600as a think tank at the heart of a a reform movement that sort of catalyzed a reform movement
00:21:58.680of pastors of leaders of uh politicians one of the things that they're there they feature in the
00:22:05.600documentary in the article is that it's catalyzed this this christian teaching has catalyzed people
00:22:11.020getting involved in local politics on school boards um stepping in to to to say hang on a
00:22:18.360minute why are we always sat on the sidelines why don't we engage in terms of biblical faith and the
00:22:22.960lordship of jesus and uh so he claims that that his whole investigation is triggered by what he
00:22:30.040saw as a huge surge in christian conservative engagement in local politics i think that claim
00:22:37.680is strained i think it was um timing wise it was much more to do with what happened last over the
00:22:43.620last three years but nonetheless it is true that many more christians now are kind of saying why
00:22:49.160are we sat on the sidelines in pietism and quietism why aren't we applying the faith why aren't we
00:22:55.140speaking for christ and his lordship and so there is a kind of backward a backhanded compliment
00:23:00.820in all of this to the institute that has encouraged us that yes there are churches
00:23:07.140leaders movements and people in uh getting involved in political life whose vision has
00:23:13.120been catalyzed by the the quiet thinking and writing and speaking of the ezra institute over
00:23:19.280the past 15 years and it's starting to bear real fruit which is an encouragement to us even though
00:23:25.020the goal of these pieces is kind of to intimidate and threaten us and stigmatize us yeah so the goal
00:23:32.380is to silence you but it is immensely encouraging that i mean they're essentially crediting the
00:23:38.980ezra institute as being the the engine under the hood you know the engine within this car this
00:23:45.940conservative engaging you know optimistic evangelical car that's starting to finally
00:23:52.320engage, drive down the road when it comes to politics and culture and the arts and all these
00:23:59.260different things. So they're essentially, you know, I mean, it really is high praise. You know,
00:24:02.880I say that as a joke, but I also say that quite seriously that they're saying there's this
00:24:07.700movement of conservative, biblical, you know, Bible-believing Christians that are finally
00:24:11.600starting to not just have a privatized lordship of Jesus in their homes and their marriage and
00:24:17.420for an hour and a half on Sunday morning, but they're actually taking their convictions,
00:24:21.140their biblical convictions and applying all of Christ to all of life. And they're, you know,
00:24:26.440crediting the Ezra Institute for being integral towards that end. The thing that I find funny,
00:24:32.760so that's high praise. I would be encouraged by that. I have no doubt that you've received
00:24:37.340more following and more encouragement and good press because of that. The thing that's funny
00:24:43.340to me though, is that that sneaky Doug Wilson somehow, without even trying, worked his way in
00:24:50.740to stealing your thunder. It's like the Ezra Institute, they deserve the praise. They have0.87
00:24:56.160been, you know, the roaring engine under the hood in Canada. But Doug Wilson, he's ultimately
00:25:02.680responsible all the way in Moscow, Idaho. He's the guy who started all this. So when I was reading
00:25:08.960the article and I saw Doug Wilson pop up, you know, the whole thing was Ezra Institute is
00:25:13.260dangerous, dangerous, dangerous, and look at what they're doing. And then, you know, and then it was
00:25:18.060like a line or something that said, you know, and, and they're influenced, uh, by, by Doug
00:25:23.200Wilson. I was like, of course, like Doug Wilson. I mean, the guy is worthy of honor. He's done so
00:25:28.060much good, but here he is, here he is getting praise even for what's going on in Canada. My
00:25:32.860goodness, Doug Wilson, that's where the envy in me started to rise up and I had to resist the
00:25:37.840temptation. So anyways, but I found the whole thing hilarious that, that, I mean, they really
00:25:42.680do view it as a hit piece. And sadly, millions of people will read it in that light because
00:25:46.880they're deceived they're blinded they're not they're not christian but for anyone not just
00:25:51.500we're not talking just to the theonomic post-millennial you know whatever christian
00:25:55.900national the average bible believing christian i i when i was reading the article i tried to read
00:26:00.920it as just your average evangelical who just believes that the bible you know just believes
00:26:06.140inerrancy of scripture those kinds of things um they're going to be reading this and they'll be
00:26:10.500like and what what's the accusation what's the poison what's the dangerous thing what's the
00:26:14.820charge, they're going to be reading this and say, well, I guess the Ezra Institute, not only are
00:26:20.480they a positive force, but they would probably read this article and think that the Ezra Institute
00:26:26.120is just a kind of a vanilla, bland, evangelical Christianity that maybe I should follow and see
00:26:32.600what they have to say. You know what I mean? Like I've told Doug this last week, I was talking to
00:26:36.480him and I said, you are quickly becoming, in many people's view within evangelicalism,
00:26:42.080you're being seen now as quite moderate used to it was like the dark you know the dark web of
00:26:47.940evangelicalism but now it's like you guys like you guys like doug who have been sounding this
00:26:54.000alarm faithfully for a long time because of the state and the culture's incredible overreaction
00:26:59.880because of the clown world we're now living in it has made all of your preaching and your writing
00:27:05.880and those kinds of things seem quite reasonable don't you think it absolutely and and and i had
00:27:13.700a number of letters of people saying you know their kind of question after reading the article
00:27:19.140was well and i mean is is that it uh it really you know to to advance basic orthodox christian
00:27:30.100truths that that this journalist actually thinks to expose because it's an expose a hit piece
00:27:36.520base these organizations teaching traditional basic elementary biblical truths now puts you
00:27:44.160on a sort of wacky fringe and extreme i think what's happening is it it is making a lot of
00:27:49.000christians begin to realize uh hang on a second but i believe that so if if if that's me why aren't
00:27:59.140what's going on? Why aren't I more engaged with? Who are these people? Who are these guys who are
00:28:05.040actually sort of standing up for these things? So I do think it's had the opposite kind of effect.
00:28:11.240It is kind of comical when the goal of referencing our American friends is, of course, that they
00:28:18.580think that this will play very well to the Canadian reader, that here you have our big
00:28:26.540bully brother south of the border because there is you know i lived in canada for 19 years there
00:28:31.480is a bit of an inferiority complex up there um about being the poor spotty cousin you know
00:28:37.360north of the 49th parallel and so it plays well to tie canadian conservative christians to the
00:28:48.040the so-called fundamentalist right in uh america because that oh yes those those awful uh uh
00:28:56.520you know, fundamentalist American Christians. They don't want that up in Canada. So that kind
00:29:01.680of, they think that plays well to their audience, but I think they've just exposed themselves for
00:29:07.040how out of touch actually with ordinary people and with reality they actually are. They refer
00:29:13.040to, as you mentioned, to Doug, I think they refer to one of our, a couple of our other fellows,
00:29:18.320Jeff Durbin at Apologia and Jeff Frentrella, who for years led the Blackstone Legal Academy for the
00:29:24.960Alliance Defending Freedom. The Alliance Defending Freedom is cited as a hate group, for goodness
00:29:29.780sake. That's one of the leading civil rights organizations in America. And the Canadian
00:29:36.260meter identifies them as a hate organization. Just incredible. But, I mean, I discovered Doug
00:29:45.840Wilson. I only got to know Doug Wilson a few years ago. I'd been running the Ezra Institute for a
00:29:50.520decade before i i knew of doug wilson and i invited him up when i discovered him to come and speak at
00:29:57.140one of our programs which he graciously did we had a lovely time together we went and visited with him
00:30:01.980my wife and i down in moscow and so on and um uh uh we uh we've we've built uh something of a of a
00:30:10.440decent relationship and um uh one of his um his network ben merkel is is one of our fellows at
00:30:17.980the institute and so they're keen to kind of draw these lines of connectivity between various people
00:30:24.080and organizations but i think this is the thing you'll really like joel because i know i know this
00:30:27.900will appear this will appeal to you so what what they actually say in the article is that we
00:30:34.320represent a muscular brand of christianity that is that differentiates itself from mainstream
00:30:43.660evangelicalism. And what is very telling, and actually where we have to give some credit to
00:30:50.600the CBC for being right in this respect, is that they say it's distinct from mainstream
00:30:56.700evangelicalism. Why? Because mainstream evangelicalism, they claim, has accepted
00:31:03.540its relativized place. It's accepted secular pluralism and is not concerned with applying
00:31:12.240biblical values in various aspects of society. That's what the article says, that the mainstream
00:31:18.700evangelicalism isn't interested in challenging secular pluralism, is not interested in applying
00:31:25.700biblical faith. They've accepted the status quo. They're okay. We'll leave them alone. But this
00:31:31.120muscular brand of Christianity that is concerned with Christ's lordship, with the idea of a
00:31:39.620Christian social order, with applying biblical faith. Well, these are the people that are
00:31:46.660dangerous. And I suppose, as you said, the encouraging thing here, the good thing here,
00:31:51.500is that they view us as a threat, small as we are. And in terms of numbers, and again, I mean,
00:31:59.840for the context in America, don't forget that there's only about 37 million people in Canada,
00:32:05.380And only a tiny fraction, tiny minority of those are actually practicing Christians.
00:32:10.780And then a fraction of those are even evangelical.
00:32:19.940And yet they're coming after us because they see our message, not because of us and our wisdom and our strength and our power or our money or our powers of persuasion.
00:32:34.700but because actually the word of god is a threat to sinful man to to those who are who are being
00:32:42.600saved it's the savor of life but to those who are perishing it's a savor of death it's a threat
00:32:48.660yeah what the it was john calvin i as memory serves who said that um those who challenge
00:32:55.220and criticize the bible the word of god actually show themselves to feel under its power
00:33:01.880what other reason could you possibly offer for targeting with such a lot of time and resources
00:33:08.820and staffing and money to the point of making secret recordings a small network of reformed
00:33:16.940christians speaking about christ kingship and lordship because actually there's power in that
00:33:21.700word it's god's power it's the power of the holy spirit it's the power of the prophetic witness of
00:33:27.580God's people. And what it made me think of most, Joel, was if just a small group of us can have
00:33:33.600this much of an impact of being just humbly and simply faithful by the grace of God and in the
00:33:40.320power of the Spirit to prophetically propose to our culture what God is saying, to prophetically
00:33:47.400witness to the truth of Scripture and the Lordship of Jesus, what if the whole church,
00:33:52.660right what if all of christ's church rose up in faithfulness and spoke the word of god wasn't it
00:34:00.700moses that said would that all of god's people prophesied uh when when he's told what you know
00:34:07.740that they're out there those guys are out there prophesying in the camp moses they're the people
00:34:11.740are listening to them he says what that all god's people were prophets well what if as prophets
00:34:17.480priests and kings we all as god's church entered into the the battle on uh for christ and his
00:34:26.160kingdom what kind of an impact we have would we actually have when you can get uh multi-billion
00:34:32.700dollar media organizations that represent federal government this upset about defending a christian
00:34:40.300view of marriage right with such a small minority yeah if the whole evangelical church right if the
00:34:47.360whole evangelical church was on board i mean it would be a juggernaut it would be a force to be
00:34:51.160reckoned with i want to go back to a couple things that you said that were so insightful
00:34:54.200uh number one the muscular right so described as like this muscular brand of christianity
00:34:59.780note i want the listener to notice that um that the charge was not um was not in terms of particular
00:35:06.700their doctrine and theologies it wasn't this extreme brand i'm sure they said that also but
00:35:11.900but the extreme um characteristic was not in the article as far as i read it was never uh describing
00:35:18.640they hold these extreme views that that the rest of christianity doesn't hold it was more so what
00:35:24.700sets you guys apart was not um that that you hold a certain extreme you know abusive totalitarian
00:35:32.680views of patriarchy or you hold this or that it was um no that this is what christians believe
00:35:38.800but but they're applying it the muscular i find that very intriguing because the the qualify
00:35:45.420qualifying term there is is not um that they think this crazy thing it's that they're doing
00:35:52.280the things that all the christians think this thing and it's crazy but 99 of christians um
00:35:59.020They may think it, but they at least have the common decency to think it in their private
00:38:40.320What I strongly insist when it comes to young preachers in the pulpit, what they need to be doing faithfully is not two components, but three. It is revelation, interpretation, application. And that's where we've fallen short.
00:38:54.980And so my point is to say, what made you, guys like Ezra Institute, guys like Apologia, guys like Doug Wilson, guys like myself, what is causing us to be singled out, it's not at the end of the day that we have in that second piece, Revelation, we have the same Bible.
00:39:12.820Wherever you're at with evangelicalism, Revelation, we're on the same page.
00:39:17.900The same 66 books, you've got them, I've got them.
00:39:20.540The Baptist, the Presbyterian, the Anglican, we've got them.
00:39:22.880interpretation with not all evangelicals, but at least now speaking about the reform camp within
00:39:29.240evangelicalism, for the most part, we agree on that second piece as well. We would have the same,
00:39:34.320very similar exegesis interpreting. We'd say, this is the text and this is what it means.
00:39:39.480And we would agree with most of our reformed brothers. But what gets you blacklisted,
00:39:44.380What puts you on a very short list of individuals to have an entire nationwide organization come after you, trying to write a hit piece on you, what gets you on that list is not the Bible, Revelation, and interpretation, a faithful, even reformed exegesis of that Revelation.
00:40:07.080but it's the last piece the muscular piece the potent piece the masculine piece the practical
00:40:13.060doing living behavioral piece which is application that the man of god when he preaches he says this
00:40:20.520is the word of the lord then he says this is what the word of the lord means but then he eventually
00:40:25.700at some point what takes it from audible commentary to actual sermon preaching is he also says and in
00:40:32.260light of this, this is what you, people of God, must do. You have to do something. Do something
00:40:38.920in order to merit the saving favor of God? No, not do something to be saved, but you do have to
00:40:44.320do something in obedience to the law word of Jesus Christ as a response of gratitude for the free
00:40:50.120salvation we've received by grace alone, through faith alone, and Christ alone. The gospel gives
00:40:55.040us something to do. The gospel itself is a command. We are saved by grace alone, not by works of the
00:41:01.620flesh so that no man can boast, but we are called to obey the law word of God in practical ways to
00:41:08.300live out our faith. And the guys who are preaching that message that are actually preaching not
00:41:13.520gospel myopticism, but both law and gospel, that the gospel gives us something to do.
00:41:19.540It doesn't just tell us how to think privately, but how to live publicly. Those are the guys who
00:41:25.580making the short list those are the guys who are being deemed as dangerous enemies of the state
00:41:31.720which again i cannot under uh under sell how high of praise that actually is it's the guys who are
00:41:39.060not that they're holding to some cultish dogma it's simply the guys holding to generally the
00:41:44.880same theology that every other evangelical holds to but the guys who actually do it and that should
00:41:51.540be viewed by the average evangelical as an indictment, as a loving chastisement from the
00:42:00.320Lord using the rod in this instance of the Canada state media. He's using them merely as an
00:42:07.780instrument, his rod bringing, I see it as lovingly fatherly discipline to all the guys within the
00:42:15.480church that genuinely are born again, genuinely are regenerate children of God, but who haven't
00:42:20.920made this short list who aren't seen as a threat. And I see it as the Lord saying, hey, that's not
00:42:27.980good. Why are you not seen as a threat? Jesus had enemies. Why don't you? So anyways, that's my take
00:42:35.640on the piece. Well, I actually think that that's a fascinating articulation of the issue. If you
00:42:45.160think about the even the prophetic history of israel why was elijah in the end considered a
00:42:54.840threat was it because he you know wandered around in in very poor clothes and uh was was a pilgrim
00:43:03.340and a wanderer uh he didn't have a power base as such but he was called a troubler of israel
00:43:10.260right that's how ahab and and jezebel regarded him he was a troubler of israel why because
00:43:16.920he meant business with the application of the word of god and of course we see that most
00:43:22.960powerfully in the the incident at uh with the against the prophets of baal but i think what's
00:43:29.440important about what you're saying there is that it highlights a deficit in mainstream evangelical
00:43:37.740and even reformed understanding of biblical authority, because we're accustomed to speaking
00:43:43.100of the inspiration, the plenary inspiration of the Bible, even the inerrancy of scripture and
00:43:48.700its authority in the abstract. But if we don't actually apply it, we don't really believe in
00:43:55.960its material authority. We believe in the abstract sense that it is the word of God,
00:44:03.520that it's inspired by god and that it's god breathed and that god's word is inerrant
00:44:11.020but then going from that and so there's a certain sense that that's a certain form of belief in
00:44:17.680authority but it remains in the abstract what we find is that and what has been troubling to find
00:44:25.100is that seemingly so many evangelical and even reformed people don't really believe in the
00:44:32.540Bible's material authority, how it actually applies. So I would say that it's manifest in
00:44:43.000the failures of preaching that you're talking about, but its root is in actually an inadequate
00:44:48.960doctrine of authority. The material authority of scripture is not really believed. It's not
00:44:55.320authoritative for the practice of everyday life in all these areas, maybe in my prayer life,
00:45:01.100in my ecclesiastical life perhaps in my personal life uh and certainly between my ears but its
00:45:09.120material authority for all of life is not accepted and this was uh really pictured for me in the
00:45:18.140canadian landscape when joel get this this this article comes out this documentary comes out
00:45:28.800So you've got a situation where a small group of faithful Orthodox Christians, because if you've rightly said, the article does not say, here are the unorthodox, heterodox, extremist, and virulently opposed beliefs in the Christian community of these radicals.
00:45:54.820in fact they refer to an uh the calvinism and they refer to in the article refers to a uh the
00:46:03.300reformed branch of christianity extreme form of calvinism that actually believes you apply
00:46:08.460the word of god and but this guy admits ironically the the the actual the actual uh extreme version
00:46:15.980of calvinism also known as hyper calvinism is is quite the opposite that would be that you don't
00:46:21.180apply anything right you just believe that because god is sovereign he's just gonna right
00:46:24.700So what they're describing, they're saying, oh, this extreme Calvinism, and the extreme Calvinism that they then go on to describe is guys who believe God's sovereign, but then also roll up their sleeves and get to work, which is anything but extreme Calvinism.
00:46:41.380But, you know, to be understanding of their errors here, it's that this man admits, this journalist admits, that he hadn't even heard of the reformed faith before doing this article.
00:46:52.620So they're wading into territory they don't understand. But the fascinating thing was that this article comes out. We're condemned for upholding simple Orthodox Christian beliefs. What is the response then of the Gospel Coalition in Canada?
00:47:11.360What do you think, what would you imagine the response of faithful evangelicals, reformed evangelicals being attacked by the state media giant, the largest media organization in Canada, 1.6 billion a year.
00:47:31.040you would imagine that other evangelicals would rush to the defense of these faithful pastors
00:47:37.260and the ezra institute seeking to uphold the lordship of jesus and defend uh marriage and
00:47:44.840human male and female identity you would you would i would not expect that not from the gospel
00:47:50.200coalition not for a second i can guess what the response would be the response would be that uh
00:47:54.620we have all this cultural capital that we've accrued by being winsome and kind and neighborly
00:47:59.420over the course of decades, a.k.a. by being impotent and being very diligent not to do
00:48:03.960anything at any single point. And here you are ruining our credibility. It's a stain on our
00:48:10.020biblical witness. You are hurting our witness. And I would assume that they would even go so far
00:48:15.620as to say that the multi-billion dollar industry is somehow the victim and that David, you know,
00:48:23.240Goliath is the victim and that David is an oppressor. Am I close?
00:48:27.160you're very close basically what they immediately did in canada was to um to post a uh very poor
00:48:37.920and weak uh two kingdoms critique of rj rush duty that is their immediate response it's not
00:48:47.260rally around those and then of course what follows is then a series of articles being posted about
00:48:53.140yes winsomeness and what uh what true defense of the faith really looks like and so on and so forth
00:48:59.580not a snot the single attempt to to speak up and stand up for fellow believers in in the fray
00:49:08.860on the front line uh but actually which which just illustrated ironically the irony was so thick
00:49:16.700because all they did was perfectly illustrate the truth of what the journalists were saying
00:49:20.820about this muscular brand of christianity over against mainstream evangelicalism uninterested
00:49:27.820in applying biblical faith they were literally it was like yep exhibit a here it is immediately
00:49:34.620not a not an article defending those defending the faith uh and it was just it was such a shame
00:49:41.760to see and very sad to be honest to see uh supposedly a big 10 organization
00:49:48.280uh taking the side effectively of the cbc against fellow reformed evangelicals who are actually
00:49:59.780speaking for christ in the public space but that's where we are very very disheartening and
00:50:04.680we've known this for a while in regards to the gospel coalition and many others it's funny you
00:50:09.060know big tent is an appropriate term i i know why you used it but that what i've realized is it's
00:50:15.200actually not uh um i i thought of certain organizations as being big tent ecumenical
00:50:21.540in the sense that um you know you could be anglican you could be baptist you could be
00:50:25.020presbyterian you could be pentecostal you know it's all encompassing um but again that's only
00:50:31.620in the sphere of doctrine what you believe but it's actually a very small tent with a very narrow
00:50:38.540conviction statement of the unwritten statement of faith that's actually supreme um and and that's
00:50:44.660in terms of um uh there's a broad consensus and allowance in terms of what you believe
00:50:50.760but very very strict criteria for how you live what you're allowed to do so that's where the
00:50:58.700gospel coalition is not a big tent at all but in fact i would argue cultish um in many ways of just
00:51:04.800uh that you know when we say jump you say how high and in the gospel coalition in their case
00:51:10.380it would be when we tell you never to jump, you don't jump. When we say never move, you don't
00:51:15.320move. When we say talk quieter. And so the common, where I would say it's narrow, where there's very
00:51:23.960strict criteria for belonging to this family is a very diligent commitment to being private. It's
00:51:34.600all about privatization it's private private private so you can be private baptist or you can
00:51:39.780be private paedo baptist you can be private um continuationist or charismatic or cessationist
00:51:45.340you can be private this private that so broad consensus broad allowance at the level of what
00:51:50.400you believe so long as you believe it uh privately but if you believe that christ is a public king
00:51:57.920and that we have a public faith and you're going to publicly live it out um then it really wouldn't
00:52:04.580matter you if you could be pentecostal doing what you're doing joe and and you would be blacklisted
00:52:09.500by the gospel coalition you could be you know presbyterian or you could be baptist or you could
00:52:13.140be anglican and it kind of seems like you might be all those but but you know as long as you're
00:52:18.400doing it publicly that's where you're going to um that's where you're gonna shade is going to be
00:52:23.380cast on you well that's where you basically christianity is being reduced to a mystery
00:52:27.680religion and we learned that harsh lesson uh during the whole um covid era when uh i was
00:52:37.720initially asked to write an article by the gospel coalition in canada as to why some pastors were
00:52:44.560resisting and had a different perspective i wrote the article and the the powers within the
00:52:52.760organization then refused to publish it and so my most read article over the last few years
00:52:57.460that uh in the end broke the website that was hosting it um was called the gospel coalition
00:53:04.640article that never was uh and it was a it was a presentation of why we were resisting
00:53:12.180these infringements on the jurisdiction and sphere sovereignty of the life of the church
00:53:19.460And they steadfastly refused to publish it or engage with it. And that's when we did have a bitter experience of the truth of what you're saying there, that it didn't matter that we were Orthodox, Reformed evangelicals.
00:53:33.500The big tent didn't apply when it came to actually the material authority of the Bible and the application of Christ's lordship into culture, into life, into the reality of the daily lived experience of the believer outside the institution of the church.
00:54:03.420What's the final word? And then also maybe a list of some of those others that we can be praying for, praying for Ezra Institute, but some of the other guys who made the article in Canada who greatly need the prayers and support of the saints. Go ahead and help us land the plane.
00:54:18.800Well, just, you know, what we'd be really grateful for is a couple of things.
00:54:23.980Very quickly, let's be mindful that what we've talked about today from where the Institute is coming from,
00:54:33.100and I know you're coming from, is that this emerges from a biblical understanding of sphere sovereignty
00:54:39.380and a biblical understanding of the law of God.
00:54:42.460And these are the kingdom tools and the kingdom manifesto, the fullness of God's law word and the marvelous creational reality of sphere sovereignty that God has established for creation and for culture.
00:55:01.220that when we live in terms of his word in the light of these areas of authority, freedom and
00:55:07.260authority properly balanced, then we actually find ourselves applying a biblical worldview.
00:55:12.280And I'd encourage readers who want to explore that further to investigate my books, Mission of
00:55:17.480God and Ruler of Kings, which I know, Joel, you have very kindly promoted before. And secondly,
00:55:22.280I would say, please pray for the church in Canada and for those who are actually, you know, for
00:55:28.600america it it it's just that seemingly that uh small fairly irrelevant country um north of the
00:55:35.980north of the border uh where it's really cold um and um you know don't need to worry about them too
00:55:42.820much they're really nice polite folk well you know there are lots of lovely nice polite uh people
00:55:48.360but there are lots of faithful uh evangelical reform people in canada who are struggling who
00:55:53.860are suffering, who are experiencing marginalization, oppression, persecution. And there's some very
00:56:00.300courageous pastors and leaders who are there. And so especially think of our fellows like
00:56:06.880Dr. Aaron Rock, pastoring in Windsor, and dear brothers like Jacob Rayum, pastoring in Waterloo.
00:56:14.500These men were both mentioned and featured in the article and in the documentary. And of course,
00:56:21.460There are other brothers out in Western Canada, Tim Stevens, James Coates, who were jailed during the lockdown period.
00:56:29.220Their churches are growing and being blessed and they need your prayers.
00:56:32.740But Pray for Canada as it faces, really, a tsunami of legislation of bills over the last 12 months and going on into these bills that are being tabled that are steadily eroding freedom of speech, freedom of expression, and the freedom of the church.
00:56:52.980And these are very, very serious issues for Canadian Christians.
00:56:56.860So pray for the Ezra Institute. We've just hired a new Canadian director, a wonderful pastor and leader who has spoken out bravely defending the faith and the freedom of the church.
00:57:06.900Reverend Nathan Wright has been pastoring a church of around a thousand people, and we've just appointed him as our new Canadian director.
00:57:15.320So please pray for him, but pray for these other pastors that I've mentioned in their churches and their ministries and pray for the Christians in Canada as they face this onslaught of legislation that God would continue to nurture and build up and raise up this network of faithful grassroots Christian reform movement that in God's good time, because we know this will happen by the grace of God, will turn the tide in a nation that is defying.
00:57:45.320the Lord God, the Lord of hosts, and the Lordship of Jesus Christ.