The NXR Podcast - THEOLOGY APPLIED - The Most Dangerous False Teachers Exposed!

00:00:00.000 Hey guys, real quick, before we get started, I have a small request.

00:00:03.360 If you've been blessed by our content and you like this show,

00:00:06.420 would you take just a brief moment and leave us a five-star review?

00:00:09.760 This is quite possibly the most effective thing that you can do

00:00:12.860 to ensure that this content gets out to as many people as possible. Thanks.

00:00:18.000 Hi, and welcome to another episode of Theology Applied. I am your host,

00:00:21.480 Pastor Joel Webben with Right Response Ministries, and you are in for a treat.

00:00:26.100 This is our all-time, most viewed, by far, episode of Theology Applied we have ever done.

00:00:34.520 My guest is none other than Justin Peters of Justin Peters Ministries.

00:00:41.000 This is our episode about calling out false teachers by name.

00:00:45.300 And yes, we intentionally use names.

00:00:48.140 Why?

00:00:48.380 Because the Bible tells us to name dangerous, poisonous, spiritually deadly, false teachers.

00:00:57.640 This is our most viewed episode of all time.

00:01:00.960 Some of you have seen this before and you need a refresher, but many of you are tuning

00:01:06.260 in.

00:01:06.760 Maybe you didn't even know our ministry existed back in the day when this episode first came

00:01:11.140 out.

00:01:11.740 You're in for a treat.

00:01:12.860 It's our most popular episode by far.

00:01:15.180 What we're doing in the month of July is we're taking our four best episodes of Theology

00:01:20.380 Applied and re-airing them, and this is the most popular one, calling out false teachers

00:01:25.580 by name, myself and Justin Peters from Justin Peters Ministries.

00:01:30.200 Tune in.

00:01:31.200 Applying God's word to every aspect of life.

00:01:34.660 This is Theology Applied.

00:01:41.100 All right, welcome to another episode of Theology Applied.

00:01:44.100 I'm Pastor Joel Webin with Right Response Ministries.

00:01:47.000 Today, I'm honored to have as a special guest, Justin Peters with Justin Peters Ministries.

00:01:52.420 He's been a blessing to me over the last couple of years.

00:01:55.420 He wrote an endorsement for the first book that I wrote, a book on the assurance of salvation.

00:02:01.120 And we had the pleasure of getting together and having lunch when I was still living in San Diego with one of our friends, Michael Cirillo.

00:02:07.620 And so he's just been a blessing to me.

00:02:09.180 had conversations from time to time over the years, and just his insight and his courage to

00:02:14.960 be able to be a discernment minister, protecting the flock of God from ravaged wolves that would

00:02:21.540 seek to devour the people of God if they could. And so I'm grateful for him. And without further

00:02:27.780 ado, let's go ahead and get started. Justin, could you tell us about yourself, your ministry,

00:02:32.480 and what you got going on? Sure, Joel. Well, first, it's a pleasure to be with you. It's good to

00:02:37.700 see you again. And I appreciate your kind words of encouragement and praise the Lord for the work

00:02:43.560 that you're doing in the ministry that he has entrusted to you. So yes, my name is Justin

00:02:49.160 Peters. I have a ministry that is very uncreatively entitled Justin Peters Ministries. And I'm an

00:02:56.860 evangelist. I travel and preach and teach. And that for which I am most well known is dealing

00:03:05.200 with false teachers. I have a seminar entitled Clouds Without Water. And Clouds Without Water

00:03:11.140 is a reference in the book of Jude, verse 12. Jude refers to false teachers in a number of

00:03:16.140 different ways, one of which is Clouds Without Water. So that's the genesis there of the title.

00:03:23.140 And it deals specifically with the Word of Faith movement, the health and wealth,

00:03:28.280 name it and claim it, gospel, prosperity gospel, the doctrine that says it's always God's will

00:03:32.400 for a Christian to be wealthy, always God's will for a Christian to be physically healed.

00:03:37.580 It's led by people such as Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, Creflo Dollar, Joel Osteen, Joyce Meyer,

00:03:44.720 some of those folks. And so that has taken me all around the world, across the United States

00:03:51.400 and around the world, preaching and teaching. But it's not my only interest. I mean, that's

00:03:56.980 kind of what people tend to think of when they think of me but I have other interests as well

00:04:02.280 my first commitment is to exposition expository preaching and so I do I do quite a bit of that

00:04:09.540 as well but the clouds without water is what I'm most known for great great that's that's how I

00:04:17.480 first kind of found you and became interested in your work and and I yeah I just appreciate

00:04:23.020 your courage and preaching the truth. So second thing that I wanted to get to that people tend to

00:04:29.380 struggle with is just the idea of calling out false teachers by name. So the title of this

00:04:34.200 episode for lack of creativity, as you said earlier, is calling out false teachers by name.

00:04:40.180 And I think people understand, most people in the church today, they understand that there are,

00:04:45.080 you know, false teachers and false teachings. But I think what I've encountered in my pastoral

00:04:51.800 ministry as I've done some of this and following in your footsteps and calling out false teachers

00:04:55.980 by name is, um, I hear a lot of Christians say, you know, well, why don't you just address false

00:05:00.560 teaching, um, without, without addressing the false teachers, or I've even had other people,

00:05:06.000 you know, who would be maybe even extra sensitive. And so they would say, well, don't even address

00:05:11.500 false teaching. Um, just, just teach true teaching. And if you just focus on the truth,

00:05:17.640 then you know like you don't need to to talk about everything that's wrong you know you don't need to

00:05:22.300 always be criticizing they kind of have that mentality where they think you're being critical

00:05:27.500 you have a critical spirit by always calling something out so it's so there's already enough

00:05:32.920 people who rub the wrong way when you call something out there's certainly people rub the

00:05:37.180 wrong way when you call someone out and so the title of the you know this episode is you know

00:05:41.920 calling out false teachers by name. And so should false teachers be called out by name?

00:05:47.240 But further than that, because I know your answer, most of our listeners do too.

00:05:52.180 Why? So kind of three parts. Why should they be called out by name? How is that good? How's that

00:05:57.280 beneficial? Why is that necessary? Who should do this? Should Christians be doing this? Should

00:06:02.400 Joe Blow Christian be doing this? Or is it reserved for pastors or evangelists? So who should do it?

00:06:07.720 Why should it be done? And then lastly, what's the proper context? Or you could say where. So why and who and where? Is it reserved for a conference about false teachers? Is it reserved for a podcast, you know, or show setting like what we're doing now? Or what about Sunday morning, the Lord's Day in the pulpit? What about on social media? Those kinds of things. So should false teachers be called out by name? And then why? Who should do it? And where? What's the proper context?

00:06:36.960 Okay. All right. So, in short, yes, we should call out false teachers publicly by name.

00:06:46.920 Let's lay a little groundwork here. You mentioned those who would say, oh, well, we should just teach the truth.

00:06:53.240 You don't have to worry about error. Teach the truth. You know, just be positive.

00:06:56.320 You don't have to worry about the error. Well, for one thing, pointing out error is in and of itself positive.

00:07:04.160 But Scripture actually commands us to do both, to teach the truth of Scripture as well as warn people about false doctrine.

00:07:14.540 In fact, Titus chapter 1 verse 9 says, teach sound doctrine and refute those who contradict.

00:07:23.620 So it's not an either or, it's a both and.

00:07:26.920 We're to do both of these things.

00:07:28.440 In fact, this would probably surprise a lot of folks.

00:07:32.740 26 of the 27 books in the New Testament directly warn about false teachers and or false teaching.

00:07:42.860 Only the book of Philemon, the short little book of Philemon, doesn't say anything about it one way or the other.

00:07:48.360 So 26 of the 27 books in the New Testament do.

00:07:51.780 So warning about false doctrine, false teaching and false teachers is a very prominent theme in the New Testament.

00:08:00.040 And so you'd really have to do, you would have to be, you would have to get to the point of being intentionally dishonest with the text of Scripture to say that we shouldn't be doing this because it is just all throughout the New Testament.

00:08:16.300 You really cannot miss it unless you're just trying to.

00:08:21.300 So, yes, it's not either or, it's to both ends.

00:08:25.880 So, first question is, why should we be doing it, correct?

00:08:30.040 And we will, A, we must do it because we have a command from Scripture to do it.

00:08:36.120 16, 17, Paul says, mark those who cause divisions and hindrances contrary to the doctrine which you learned and stay away from them.

00:08:46.520 As just one example.

00:08:48.080 So we're commanded from Scripture to mark those who teach contrary doctrine to the gospel.

00:08:53.440 And also, false doctrine, false teaching, and those two terms are synonymous, by the way, doctrine and teaching.

00:09:02.440 But they pose a real threat to people, both to unbelievers and to believers.

00:09:12.280 Paul says that, he writes to Timothy and says that false teaching, idle chatter, it spreads like gangrene.

00:09:20.100 error is error always begets more error okay error is never isolated it left unchecked error

00:09:29.780 spreads like gangrene it always begets more error and so unless you if you don't engage it and i

00:09:38.600 guess to quote barney fife if you don't nip it in the bud i might be dating myself there

00:09:42.980 but if you don't nip in the bud it's going to spread it's uh look at the united methodist

00:09:47.700 church as an example. Back, so gosh, 70, 80 years ago now, they began to ordain women into the 0.91

00:09:57.280 ministry, but they were still on other issues, you know, pretty conservative theologically. 0.99

00:10:04.220 And now the United Methodist Church is ordaining homosexuals, and I mean, they're hopelessly 0.86

00:10:09.040 liberal. So, uh, error always begets more error. It never just stays isolated. So, um, so that's 0.99

00:10:17.520 the why, because it does pose a danger. And now granted it doesn't pose any eternal danger as in

00:10:27.200 a crit to a Christian. A genuine Christian can never lose his or her salvation. So it's not

00:10:31.400 like it's going to lead them, uh, to losing a salvation, but it can divert them. It can stunt

00:10:37.040 their sanctification. It can stunt their price. Uh, it can confuse them. It can be, um, uh,

00:10:44.820 very, uh, what's the word I'm looking for? Very, uh, uh, it can be devastating to them, at least

00:10:51.080 in a, in a temporary sense. I mean, eventually a genuine believer will kind of get back on the

00:10:57.280 right track, but it can absolutely stunt their, their growth and cause a lot of confusion

00:11:01.900 unnecessarily so uh so so that's the why uh and the in the in the what is that correct what's the

00:11:10.420 next question yeah who and where what's the proper context aka where but then also who who should do

00:11:16.360 it okay so who should do it um all of us should do it this is not just something for the preachers

00:11:24.460 or the you know the elders or the conference speakers no this is something that we should

00:11:30.700 all be doing. Each and every one of us is, as believers, we are indwelt by the same Holy Spirit.

00:11:38.620 Anybody watching us right now, maybe you're not in ministry, but you're a genuine Christian born

00:11:44.060 again by the Holy Spirit of God. Guess what? You have the same Holy Spirit that I do and Joel does.

00:11:49.480 So this is incumbent upon all of us to do. So it's not just for the preachers.

00:11:54.640 and where, well, as I just said, not just at conferences, not just in church.

00:12:04.620 We are to always be ready, as the Apostle Peter says,

00:12:08.940 always be ready to give an answer for the hope that is within us.

00:12:12.820 We're to preach the word in season and out of season.

00:12:16.280 That means always be ready to preach God's word,

00:12:19.260 always be ready to give an answer for the hope that is within us.

00:12:21.880 So it's it's not just something to think about and talk about at a conference or apologetics conference or on church on church on Sunday mornings.

00:12:30.260 We always need to be ready to do this because all of us, I would dare say each and every person watching us right now.

00:12:40.460 Knows someone who to one degree or another has been led astray by false teachers.

00:12:46.740 they are so prominent

00:12:49.500 and they dominate

00:12:51.780 the airwaves, they dominate

00:12:53.580 Christian television

00:12:54.820 they get the most YouTube

00:12:57.480 views and

00:12:59.320 clicks

00:13:00.440 in fact Sid Roth

00:13:03.140 who is one of the looniest 0.96

00:13:05.660 of the loony

00:13:07.100 I mean honestly I couldn't even

00:13:09.620 I couldn't make up something

00:13:11.720 crazier than

00:13:13.460 the previous guest on Sid Roth's

00:13:16.740 program. I mean, it just Looney Tunes, like it would make Scientology look like a documentary

00:13:21.520 kind of crazy. His channel, his YouTube channel has 1.26 million subscribers. And

00:13:32.780 for comparison, Grace to Use YouTube channel has about 400,000 or something.

00:13:39.380 So he literally has, I mean, this guy who is absolutely loony has triple the amount of

00:13:46.400 subscribers that grace to you has so right it's very prominent that very very prominent false

00:13:53.220 teachers are everywhere yep i like what you said in terms of the the who um that it's it's a ministry

00:14:01.300 for all believers it's a ministry for all the saints and it just got me thinking about first

00:14:05.200 john it got me thinking about um where where the apostle he writes to you know to his his readers

00:14:11.540 is and he says um i'm not writing to you because you don't have knowledge i'm not writing to you

00:14:16.560 because you've been left out in the dark there's these false teachers that were kind of giving this

00:14:22.000 impression you know um trying to lead them astray that that you know that there was this higher

00:14:26.220 echelon of spiritual knowledge this you know gnosticism this you know you know special

00:14:31.500 enlightenment and they were they were hijacking the the biblical old testament word anointing

00:14:36.120 and using it for their, you know, their perverse purposes and saying, we're the anointed ones.

00:14:41.780 And if you listen to us, you know, and you come and join our secret club, you can be anointed too

00:14:47.220 and come into this higher gnosis, this, you know, elite knowledge.

00:14:52.240 And John says, I do not write to you because you're missing something.

00:14:56.160 I don't write to you because there's something that you don't know.

00:14:59.300 And I'm here to fill in the blanks.

00:15:00.820 I write to you because you do know, because you do have knowledge, and because you have been, past tense, every single one of you, if you're in Christ, you have been anointed by the Holy One.

00:15:13.040 And this is the same letter where John also says, greater is he who is in you than he who is in the world, you know, and we take that out of context a lot of times in the evangelical church.

00:15:22.760 And, you know, you see that right alongside, you know, Philippians, I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me at a football game, you know, greater is he who is in us and we can beat that football team and say, well, no, it's a little deeper than that.

00:15:34.620 But greater is he who is in you, speaking of the Holy Spirit that you've been anointed by, and his confirming and resonating ministry with the truth, because the Holy Spirit, Jesus said, he convicts us of sin, and he will guide us and remind us of all that Christ has taught us.

00:15:53.720 So the Holy Spirit dwelling within us, resonating with the truth is a more powerful ministry led by a more powerful person, namely the third member of the Trinity, than the devil.

00:16:05.880 And particularly what's in view with he who is in the world, referencing Satan, is his deceptive false teachings.

00:16:12.640 And so even that idea of greater is he who is in you than he who is in the world is speaking to the very topic that we're addressing right now.

00:16:20.620 Now, the topic of what that means is not that just you can beat the other football team.

00:16:24.560 What it actually means is that if you're a genuine born-again Christian, you cannot ultimately be deceived in an ultimate sense by false teaching because the Holy Spirit won't let it happen.

00:16:35.840 And because you do have knowledge.

00:16:37.560 And again, John, he's not just writing to a team of elders.

00:16:40.420 um he's he's when he says you do have knowledge you have been anointed you have the holy spirit

00:16:46.260 and he's strong enough within you to to preserve you from deception and false teaching he's he's

00:16:53.220 addressing all the saints he's addressing all the people of god and so yeah that's i i appreciate

00:16:59.640 you saying that it's a ministry for everyone now i gotta be honest as a pastor there have been times

00:17:04.160 where where i i see you know some people maybe a little overzealous fulfilling that ministry you

00:17:09.920 know, in the chat section on, on Facebook, you know, and, and getting in arguments, you know,

00:17:14.760 that sometimes I'm like, man, I, I don't know if you went too far. And even if you didn't go too

00:17:19.640 far, I feel like you might just be wasting your time. You know, there's like 174 comments between

00:17:24.440 two people. Everybody else has already checked out like at comment 47 and, you know, it just

00:17:28.520 keeps going. It's like, all right, you know what, you know what, sweetheart, you know, why don't you

00:17:32.540 just give it a rest and we'll just, we'll just leave that in the hands of God. But, but you see

00:17:38.180 that sometimes you know christians it is their ministry and sometimes um sometimes they take

00:17:43.340 that ministry uh maybe maybe too far but but all right well let me let me get to another question

00:17:49.820 what's what's the biblical support you you've already given us titus right so that you know

00:17:54.960 you're teaching what's true you're refuting what's false what's some other could you maybe

00:18:00.260 not biblical support just in principle but could you give us a couple biblical examples

00:18:04.000 where one of the apostolic writers called out some guys by name?

00:18:09.240 Yeah, absolutely.

00:18:10.560 And that's a great question, and I'm happy to answer that.

00:18:15.840 It happens on a number of occasions, actually.

00:18:18.420 And it goes beyond just warning about false teaching in a general sense.

00:18:24.960 The apostolic writers, the writers of Scripture,

00:18:28.060 called out false teachers by name publicly on a number of occasions.

00:18:35.000 Just a few of these, 2 Timothy chapter 4, verse 10, Paul writes,

00:18:39.660 For Demas, having loved this present world, has deserted me and gone to Thessalonica, or Thessaloniki in the Greek.

00:18:46.620 Christians has gone to Galatia, Titus to Dalmatia.

00:18:49.660 So Paul there, 2 Timothy 4.10, names Demas.

00:18:54.520 2 Timothy chapter 1, verse 15, Paul says, 0.96

00:18:57.460 you are aware of the fact that all who are in Asia turned away from me, among whom are Phygellus

00:19:02.520 and Hermogenes. So he names two of them right there, 2 Timothy 2, excuse me, 2 Timothy 1 verse 15.

00:19:11.820 Another one, 1 Timothy chapter 1, 19 through 20, Paul says, keeping faith in a good conscience,

00:19:19.900 which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith. Among these are Hymenaeus

00:19:25.300 and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan.

00:19:29.840 2 Timothy 2, 17, this is actually a verse I alluded to a minute ago.

00:19:33.660 Paul says, their talk will spread like gangrene.

00:19:36.200 Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus.

00:19:41.720 Peter, 2 Peter 2, verse 15, forsaking the right way, they have gone astray, having followed 0.97

00:19:48.400 the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness.

00:19:52.520 uh and then third john nine john the apostle writes i wrote something to the church but

00:19:58.080 diatrophies who love to be first among them does not accept what we say so uh there's several right

00:20:04.160 there was that one two three four five six that was a lot that was great yeah there's a there's

00:20:10.240 a couple there's a couple in the bible um no that was really great and i love i love um first

00:20:15.500 timothy one i i preached through first timothy about a year ago and uh first timothy is a great

00:20:20.100 book of the bible for a church shrinking strategy if you're a pastor and you want to feel like you

00:20:24.320 just have too many congregants and you want to you want to narrow them down kind of like a like a

00:20:28.260 john john uh chapter what is it chapter six right where jesus they all leave except the disciples

00:20:33.760 is that right um but i i yeah we lost a few people but um but i i like first timothy one so he calls

00:20:41.640 him out by name at the end like you said hymenes and alexander um but so that's that would be like

00:20:46.220 the case study and then and then the principle he gives it to timothy right out the bat i mean

00:20:50.480 it's the very beginning of the letter timothy as far as we can tell young man a young pastor

00:20:54.500 probably a bit intimidated uh left in ephesus um to you know and he's got a he's got to deal with

00:21:01.920 men who are probably in some cases twice his elder you know twice his age and uh he says i

00:21:08.140 as i urge verse three chapter one verse three as i urge you uh when i went to macedonia remain in

00:21:13.780 Ephesus so that you may instruct certain people not to teach false doctrine or pay attention to

00:21:18.960 myths and endless genealogies. They promote empty speculation rather than God's plan,

00:21:24.080 which operates by faith. I don't know why I'm using that. I don't like this translation, but

00:21:28.000 better translation to charge certain persons, to charge certain persons. And I remember when I was

00:21:34.080 preaching that, you know, I was trying to encourage my congregation that the ministry that the

00:21:40.600 apostle assigned to timid so it's not just an apostolic ministry it's not just paul's ministry

00:21:44.100 he's assigning this ministry to timothy um a young pastor and the ministry he assigns him is not just

00:21:49.680 um it's not just to teach what's true and it's not just to charge certain ideas right so it's

00:21:57.240 and that's what we would like to say so that word charge it's a charged word charge it's it's you

00:22:01.700 know it's a it's it's um to to to rebuke to confront to challenge and um and so timothy as

00:22:08.500 a young man is supposed to not let anyone despise him because of his youth. He's called to go in

00:22:13.000 there with Christian confidence, no confidence in the flesh, but confidence in Christ and the

00:22:17.220 Holy One who's anointed him and dwells within him, resonating with the truth. And he's called to go

00:22:21.460 in there and sharply rebuke. That's the word charge. That's what sharply rebuke, not just

00:22:27.280 certain ideas, not just sharply rebuke the prosperity gospel, but sharply charge certain

00:22:33.780 persons, prosperity preachers. And, and, and I remember just seeing some of the looks on the

00:22:40.520 faces of my congregants and like, I really, you know, but it was so plain in the text. There

00:22:45.420 wasn't a lot of, there wasn't a lot of pushback. And so I think that that's something that people

00:22:49.720 struggle with charging certain persons. And I think, well, I'll, I'll, I'll just, I'll throw

00:22:54.740 it to you as a question. Why, why do you think, cause you've already addressed this, you know,

00:22:59.220 the why, why do we need to call out false teachers by name? But why, getting more specific,

00:23:04.720 why is it distinctly beneficial for the sheep to not merely call out a false teaching, a false

00:23:13.680 ideology or idea, but also to call out a false teacher? Because to play the devil's advocate

00:23:20.160 for a moment, what if somebody was just sitting here with me and you, and they push back and they

00:23:23.200 say, why don't you just do a seminar, Justin, and just give them all, you know, 10 characteristics

00:23:28.420 of the prosperity gospel, which I'm sure you've done, you know, something like that probably

00:23:32.140 a hundred times, you know, and like what, you know, give, give us a 10 telltale signs of

00:23:36.940 the prosperity gospel and make it plain as day, teach a seminar, give hours of information.

00:23:42.960 Here's the prosperity gospel. Here's the gospel of Jesus Christ. Here's a prospect and line them

00:23:47.120 up, compare and contrast, make it real plain and just equip them with those tools and send them

00:23:51.260 home. Why, why do you have to name a prosperity preacher? What would you say, Justin? Yeah, well,

00:23:57.580 A couple of things. The first one I would say, kind of what we've already talked about, is that there is a biblical precedent for calling out false teachers by name.

00:24:06.340 So that's letter A. That's exhibit one right there.

00:24:11.200 Yeah, that's good. And it's sufficient. That's enough.

00:24:13.800 Yeah, that's sufficient in and of itself. That's sufficient. That's enough reason.

00:24:17.120 But to add to that, I have talked to many people over the years, Joel, who just in general conversation, they would say, oh, yeah, you know, the prosperity gospel, the belief that God wants us all to be wealthy and never be sick, you know, that's just not biblical.

00:24:39.000 But then you ask them, well, who are some of your favorite preachers?

00:24:41.280 Oh, I love Joel Osteen.

00:24:43.120 That's it, Justin.

00:24:44.380 See, that's what I wanted you to say, because I know I've had that same experience.

00:24:48.120 I can only imagine you've had it 10 times as often as I have.

00:24:51.700 But that same experience where it's like, I'm like, what?

00:24:55.360 Where I'm talking to someone and I'm describing the prosperity gospel, the doctrine, without the person.

00:25:01.780 I'm charging a certain idea, but not charging a certain person.

00:25:05.060 And the person I'm talking to is just nodding their head right there with you, brother.

00:25:08.720 Oh, my.

00:25:09.100 I can't stand that health and wealth.

00:25:10.560 And then, and then I see on their Facebook feed, like all sharing all this stuff by Kenneth Copeland. I'm like, how? And they're like, oh no, he's not a prosperity preacher. And so that I think there's just this disconnect. Why do you think that is? Why do you think, how do people miss that?

00:25:24.500 I, you know, it, I don't know, Joel, but I've seen it so much. People do miss it. They just,

00:25:32.440 they, they don't connect the dots. I would have to say they're either,

00:25:38.440 they're really ignorant of scripture or ignorant of, of what they're the teacher, 0.98

00:25:45.500 the preacher that they're their favorite one that they've been listening to that 0.98

00:25:48.340 for some reason, they just don't connect the dots. I literally, one time, this is

00:25:54.220 not an ounce of hyperbole. A number of years ago, I was in a Lifeway Christian bookstore,

00:26:00.740 and there was a lady who was looking at a copy of The Message by Eugene Peterson, which is,

00:26:06.060 we could do a whole program on that. That's garbage. But anyway, and I just couldn't help 0.99

00:26:11.200 myself. And so I was on my little scooter, and I went up to her. I said, ma'am, I said, I know

00:26:15.640 you're not asking my opinion, but I do know a little bit about this. And I said, if you're

00:26:20.080 looking for a bible this is not the one you want and so she was very nice she said oh really and

00:26:25.900 so I started we started talking about that and uh listened to me you know so it it kind of led

00:26:31.340 into another conversation in the midst of the conversation we got talking about various preachers

00:26:34.960 and she said I kid you not she said my two favorite preachers are Joel Osteen and John MacArthur

00:26:41.940 uh two peas in a pod huh i'm sure i'm sure john mccarthur was flattered if he ever heard that

00:26:52.640 it's just uh really no it happens it makes me think i know there's got to be an illustration

00:27:00.380 for this that i just i can't i can't think of off the top of my head but it's it's almost like um

00:27:06.320 i've you know there's there's some old parable i just can't think of it but

00:27:10.200 not a parable from the Bible, but just the idea of, you know, describing, you know how you describe

00:27:15.400 something to a blind man, you know, and it feels like this, and it looks like that, and it's this

00:27:23.360 size, and, you know, all these kind of things, and then, like, if he could see, right, you could

00:27:27.840 describe an elephant, for instance, in just exact detail to a blind man, and then let's say all of

00:27:34.640 a sudden, you know, his sight was restored, and he sees an elephant for the first time, he still

00:27:39.360 may not necessarily connect the dots. There's just something about when it comes to, well,

00:27:44.720 I think just the act of teaching. When it comes to the art of teaching, there's a reason why

00:27:51.000 Jesus gives examples. There's a reason why the apostles give. I think there's just something

00:27:56.420 about examples. I think when someone's teaching me, when I'm trying to learn something, and they

00:28:02.040 just give me the general principle, I'll get a lot out of that. But it's not until they say,

00:28:08.540 And here's the general principle, this tenant, this tenant, this tenant, da, da, da, da, da.

00:28:12.760 You got it.

00:28:13.260 And it's like, okay, I got it.

00:28:14.220 And they're like, and here's what it looks like.

00:28:16.080 You know what I mean?

00:28:16.480 Some people are just visual learners.

00:28:18.120 They just need that.

00:28:19.300 And so I think that's part of it.

00:28:20.540 And I think also part of it, I think I keep thinking about 1 Timothy 5 when Paul's writing

00:28:26.560 to Timothy in regards to disciplining an elder, you know, and those who persist in sin, rebuke

00:28:33.360 them before them all so they, you know, the rest might stand in fear.

00:28:37.520 And then he goes immediately on to say, do nothing from favoritism.

00:28:42.900 And it's not random.

00:28:44.900 He's not changing gears.

00:28:47.940 He's saying, I think what he's saying is, because I believe, and I know you do too, and ministering with a plurality of elders in a local church.

00:28:55.260 And so he's assuming there's a plurality of elders.

00:28:57.040 And I think when you're ministering shoulder to shoulder with brothers in Christ in that kind of capacity, especially in the same local church, it assumes, I think it assumes friendship and a good Christian brotherly love and tender heartedness toward one another.

00:29:14.160 Meaning that I think the implication that Paul is saying is if you've got to discipline a fellow elder, you're going to be tempted not to because you like him.

00:29:23.620 You like him.

00:29:24.440 He's your friend.

00:29:25.160 You know, and so I think in the same kind of thing, like with that woman, you know, like that you're describing or the person is like, oh, I hate that health and wealth and really like, you know, Kenneth Copeland.

00:29:34.280 Um, I think that person, I think part of it is that they, they, sometimes they come into these

00:29:39.540 convictions later on from a ministry, you know, or, or the, you know, a local church setting,

00:29:46.040 or they read a book by MacArthur or something like that. And they, and they come to see the

00:29:49.760 faultiness, um, the falsehoods with the prosperity gospel or some other heresy. Um, but, but they

00:29:56.800 already have this, I think it's personal. I think it's relational. They already have like this

00:30:01.000 relational connection, even though they've never met the person, um, in, in, in actual life, just

00:30:06.260 they've been listening to so-and-so for so long and read so many of their books that even though

00:30:11.300 they now believe that health and wealth preaching is wrong, they just, they can't come to terms with

00:30:17.500 saying, and that's Joel Osteen. Like, no, that's not Joel Osteen because, because there's this

00:30:22.980 affection that there's this personal relational bond. It's favoritism. I think there's it's

00:30:29.320 favoritism. And I think that's why, because as human beings, we can easily deceive ourselves

00:30:36.480 and be blinded, but we can be biased. We are prone to showing favoritism. James talks about

00:30:42.380 don't treat poor people this way and rich people that way. And Jesus said the same thing. That's

00:30:46.600 just the way we operate in our sinfulness. We are prone towards showing favoritism. There is

00:30:52.600 no favoritism with God and we're not like him in that capacity. And because of our fallen nature

00:30:57.620 and maybe something to our finitude, there's this propensity towards favoritism. And I think that

00:31:02.360 plays into false teachers. And so anybody who's already developed an affinity with a false teacher,

00:31:09.480 even if they come out of the false teaching, they might still not, they're just not, it's not even

00:31:15.800 that they can't do it, they just won't do it. They will not connect the dots to that person.

00:31:22.040 It's the same kind of thing where, you know, people, they come into Reformed theology.

00:31:25.480 and uh one of the hardest parts that i've noticed for people coming to reform theology is uh usually

00:31:31.700 it's it's it's their high school mentor it's their parents it's people in their church back home

00:31:37.320 that's that's not reformed and and one of the hardest things for them is um that to accept

00:31:44.800 these things as true but then logically make the progression if this then that and be able to say

00:31:50.960 and these people over here doesn't mean that they're not christians necessarily doesn't mean

00:31:54.940 that they're not good people in that relative sense, but, but they're wrong. And, you know,

00:32:00.360 my high school mentor taught me wrong and my parents are wrong. Like it's, it's like a kid

00:32:06.700 when he, when he reaches 14, 15 and he beats his dad in basketball for the first time. And it's

00:32:11.620 like, he's so excited out of his mind, excitement. And then later on that night, he feels a little

00:32:16.700 sad because he, cause there's something in you that like, you never really want to beat the old

00:32:21.700 man you did but you didn't really you always want him to be beyond you you know and and so i think

00:32:27.140 there's just like this you know that you know what i mean it's like oh not not not joel osteen

00:32:32.620 you know like i i read him growing up as a kid you know what i mean i think there's that relational

00:32:38.060 component that people are just it's hard to let go of what would you agree with that oh yeah yeah

00:32:45.240 I would. And a lot of it's a lot of people have to do a lot of deprogramming.

00:32:50.820 And I can't tell you how many emails I've received over the years.

00:32:55.060 People who they feel like they have been lied to their whole life.

00:33:00.840 And they they above that, they grieve over how many years they spent in false doctrine.

00:33:10.820 And now they see the truth and they're embracing the truth warmly and eagerly.

00:33:15.240 but they grieve I've spent my whole life in this stuff and it's um you know some people come out

00:33:24.360 of it more quickly more easily than others um some folks think progress in their sanctification

00:33:30.520 more quickly than others but but for a lot of people it's hard it's it's a hard thing for it

00:33:35.260 to sink into them I've had this wrong for decades maybe you know years I've had this wrong so it's

00:33:44.040 it's a hard it's kind of a hard pill to swallow for a lot of people it is yeah to abandon yeah

00:33:49.800 because you just i mean to to walk away from something that you've been building and developing

00:33:54.440 and investing in for such a long time and to count it all as loss as dung that's a that's hard um

00:34:01.880 yeah and i think to you know to walk away from it and in a sense to walk away from them i think that

00:34:09.160 that's that makes it really hard to to realize i've been wasting my time with this teaching and

00:34:16.360 it's not just that this teaching is wrong but it's this person right because it's it's not just i've

00:34:22.300 been in this uh teaching or this doctrine no like that it's always they come together the doctrine

00:34:29.220 and the community of people right so i if i've been steeped in the prosperity gospel you've

00:34:34.480 probably been steeped in a prosperity gospel community you know i mean in a church like that

00:34:39.480 in a family like that friends like that and so you're not just walking away from an idea that i

00:34:45.780 think that's what makes it so hard you're not just walking away from an idea you're walking away from

00:34:49.600 what felt like a family you know and and uh yeah that's hard and i know you and i both have some

00:34:55.900 guys that we have personal relationships with with you know they didn't decide their last name

00:35:00.260 you know but they they you know got god you know in his sovereignty opened their eyes and they

00:35:04.780 it wasn't the hardest the hardest part for those guys was was not just walking away from the

00:35:09.360 teaching but it was it was losing relationships yeah you know they really really yeah yeah all

00:35:17.560 right let me ask you this real quick and then we'll go ahead and uh close out our episode um

00:35:22.040 but what what about i believe it's first corinthians chapter three i don't even i don't

00:35:26.480 want to i got my bible here okay i'll do i i can't let me see this is the csb i'm not a huge fan i

00:35:34.300 don't think it's the worst translation but the christian standard bible have you heard of that

00:35:37.720 translation i heard of it but i'm not really read it any so i'm not familiar i prefer nasb or esb

00:35:44.580 but this is what i got on my desk right now i'm not going to get up so not that that devoted um

00:35:50.720 first corinthians i believe it's chapter three you'll know uh but it's where you know paul is

00:35:55.360 writing, he's saying, he's talking about the person who builds with wood, hay, and stubble

00:35:59.800 versus the person who builds with precious jewels. And the person who builds with the wood,

00:36:03.880 hay, and stubble, he says he himself will be saved, but as one escaping flames, barely by

00:36:08.880 the skin of his teeth. Now that can't be a false teacher, can it? I have my thoughts on it, but I'd

00:36:15.880 love to hear, what would you say to the person who's asking, well, Justin, what about this right

00:36:19.720 here that, you know, it seems like some people in their ministry are ministering wrong,

00:36:26.540 incorrectly, you know, something that's ultimately going to be burned up. It's not going to, you

00:36:31.420 know, God will test it with fire on the last day. And all their work was in vain. It was not

00:36:37.120 eternal. It was not correct. It was false. It was wrong. But they themselves were saved. How can

00:36:43.460 somebody, how can their work be false, but them be true? Do you know what I'm talking about? Is

00:36:49.000 it first corinthians 3 is that right yeah i don't i don't my uh i've got my phone turned off i kept

00:36:55.120 i don't enough we just okay i think i found it in my uh in my bag so i don't i think it's first

00:37:02.180 first corinthians 3 8 8 through yeah 8 or um 10 verse 10 it says according to the god's grace

00:37:12.060 that was given to me i laid a foundation as an expert builder another one builds upon it but

00:37:18.060 each one should be careful how he builds, for no one can lay another foundation, right? That's

00:37:24.840 like Ephesians 2.20. The foundation is apostles and the prophets. We don't have any more of them.

00:37:29.560 Christ is the cornerstone. We've got evangelists and pastors, and we're framers. We're building

00:37:34.200 on that foundation. And so another is building on it, but they should be careful how they build.

00:37:38.480 No one can lay another foundation. That's already done. It's already been laid. The foundation is

00:37:42.740 jesus christ if anyone builds on the foundation with gold silver and costly stones so this first

00:37:48.580 corinthians 3 verse 12 with gold silver or costly stones or with wood hay or straw each one's work

00:37:56.360 will become obvious it will be manifest for the day will disclose it because it will be revealed

00:38:03.460 by fire the fire will test the quality of each one's work verse 14 now if anyone's work that he

00:38:11.100 has built survives, he will receive a reward. But if anyone's work is burned up, he will experience

00:38:16.900 great loss. He will suffer great loss, but he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

00:38:24.300 What are your thoughts on that text? Yeah, well, we'll be saved, but as only by fire,

00:38:33.660 through fire. So that the kind of the imagery there is, yeah, you're going to make it into

00:38:39.820 heaven but your coattails are going to be smoking so it's uh it is a curious text granted but um

00:38:49.320 i mean there's only two kinds of people in this world sheep and goats that's it so anyone who

00:38:54.460 makes it into heaven they do so because they are a sheep um but there are there are uh teachers out

00:39:03.660 there, preachers, who are genuinely converted, but they either A, have, or both, they either

00:39:12.400 either or both have significant error in what they teach. They're not biblically qualified

00:39:22.560 to teach. And there are, I mean, not every Christian is biblically qualified to be a preacher. 0.98

00:39:30.200 so just because you're saved doesn't mean that you should be behind the pulpit 0.65

00:39:35.560 and there's nothing wrong with that obviously every Christian can't be a preacher we're not

00:39:39.700 supposed to be so there's that aspect of it there are teachers out there who have

00:39:46.900 significant error they're regenerate but they've got some significant error

00:39:51.720 and there's a lot of preachers out there even preachers who have sound doctrine but they do

00:39:59.120 what they do for entirely the wrong motives. And that exists as well, unfortunately. And it's not

00:40:09.780 that any of us is completely free of pride. We're not. I'm not. You're not. None of us are. This

00:40:17.780 side of our glorification, none of us is completely free of pride. But we've got to go to war against

00:40:25.640 that pride. We've got to put to death at the knees of the body. And, uh, there's a lot of 1.00

00:40:29.660 preachers out there who may have sound doctrine. They may look good on paper, but, uh, they do

00:40:34.860 what they do for the praise of men. They do what they do. Um, you know, pride is a far bigger

00:40:40.940 problem for some than it is for others. And, uh, and, and everything's going to be judged in the

00:40:47.120 end, including our motive, why we do what we do. So yeah, there's going to be some people as the

00:40:52.400 imagery suggests you you get into heaven but but your coattails are going to be smoking right so

00:40:58.400 with that let me kind of just press a little bit deeper so then what do you what do you do because

00:41:04.140 it seems like then we almost need a third category not not with sheeps and goats there's only two of

00:41:09.920 those but in terms of faithful shepherd false teacher wolf and it seems like there's got to

00:41:15.940 be something in between because i what i'm getting at is there were some brothers and i've already

00:41:22.100 you know shown my hand right there by using the term brothers but i think there are some brothers

00:41:26.080 that you and i would would both be aware of and uh with some pretty big platforms in the church

00:41:32.780 today um who you look back on some of their teachings and you're like man that was really

00:41:37.740 sound that was that was some good gospel preaching and i praise god for that brother

00:41:42.620 there are are just people have come in droves uh to christ because of their ministry they're

00:41:49.160 preaching um and then and then there's been a drift as of late it seems and uh and whether

00:41:59.540 it's you know like there's the age-old kind of prosperity gospel stuff that you've done a lot

00:42:03.880 of work on but there's there's some new some new things popping up their head critical race theory

00:42:09.480 um i mean the egalitarian thing keeps coming in feminism but that's that's you know it has some

00:42:16.160 new new tactics you know it has some new tricks from time to time but it's the same old same old

00:42:21.240 thing but but the the race issue has been a big one critical race theory and i and i praise god

00:42:26.000 for guys like tom askell jared longshore votie bockham john mccarthur you know guys who have

00:42:30.360 stood up against that but there's some guys that like i i really used to to like their ministry i

00:42:35.880 like them and man they just hook line and sinker have gone woke and uh just drinking the kool-aid

00:42:42.980 for lack of a better term but i don't want i don't feel comfortable calling them a false teacher

00:42:48.660 you see what i'm saying that's what i'm asking like with this third category i think because i

00:42:52.940 think they're getting in to have you know what i mean i like they have a gospel message but they're

00:42:57.960 embracing this stuff that i i really think that if they if they i think they're trying to hold

00:43:03.340 two things in tension that just are diametrically opposed to one another and i think eventually

00:43:07.680 because i believe that they are brothers eventually i think they're going to let this nasty stuff go

00:43:11.320 and and just hold on to that gospel and repent and i'm and i'm praying and hoping and believing that

00:43:16.600 because you can't hold them both indefinitely because they they're both diametrically opposed

00:43:21.800 one's gonna gonna beat out the other and um and you know and this woke woke gospel it is another

00:43:28.580 gospel and it is in opposition to the true gospel it it replaces repentance with penance you know

00:43:33.720 there is no there is now much condemnation in the woke church there's no forgiveness there's no

00:43:38.060 uh this the sin of racism is something that's the worst sin of all sins you know and it's it's

00:43:43.440 unbiblical and and it's not just unbiblical or extra biblical it it's um it is contrary to the

00:43:48.960 teaching of scripture and contrary to the gospel of jesus christ and i and you and i both know guys

00:43:53.580 who've they've embraced this and they're talking about their white privilege and and they're and

00:43:58.260 why it's why it's sin and you know repenting of being a racist and i'm like well if and saying

00:44:03.060 there still are a racist i'm like well then if you still are a racist then you should not still

00:44:06.940 be an elder you know if you really believe that then go ahead and resign from ministry you know

00:44:11.400 what i mean and so we've got that whole thing going on but some of these guys i really i just

00:44:16.160 don't feel and maybe it's me so maybe you need to just call call call me to to have some more

00:44:21.100 courage but i don't feel comfortable calling them false teachers at least at this juncture

00:44:25.820 what do you think about that is that a first corinthians 3 guy maybe

00:44:29.920 very well could be yeah particularly if they don't write the ship if they don't

00:44:36.380 abandon it of course as you said a minute ago we would expect them to do that

00:44:39.780 uh it's been very disheartening that they have not done so already but uh yeah and and i'm going

00:44:46.020 to refrain from naming them because uh i don't at least you know no i don't i know i'm sure you

00:44:52.420 and i are thinking of probably a lot of the same guys uh yeah i can absolutely consider them to be

00:44:57.940 brothers uh but they have sadly and tragically been enchanted for whatever reason by the social

00:45:06.160 justice stuff and and that that is antithetical to the gospel on every conceivable level

00:45:14.540 yeah so well then let me ask this real quick so we're saying you know we start off the episode

00:45:20.800 saying there is a biblical precedence not just not just as permissible but there there is a

00:45:25.320 mandate to name publicly named false teachers but you and i are both not naming some of these guys

00:45:32.600 and so i guess i guess my question is um the guys that paul named demas do you think that all the

00:45:39.080 guys that paul named hymenaeus alexander demas these guys do you do you think they were all

00:45:43.960 do you think they're they were all um were some of them the first corinthians three do you think

00:45:51.280 And Paul, the same Paul who wrote 1 Corinthians 3, and some of them will make it into heaven, but with their coattails on fire, they really are brothers, and they really are personally trusting in a true gospel.

00:46:02.680 But somewhere in their ministry, they got off track and were building with wood and hay and stubble.

00:46:10.040 And I think the guys that me and you were both thinking of would fit that bill.

00:46:13.160 Do you think that some of the guys that Paul listed by name were that, or do you think that the principle is you only publicly name the full-blown, bona fide Benny Hinn false teacher?

00:46:27.500 Does that make sense?

00:46:29.440 Yeah, yeah, it does.

00:46:30.960 And my guess is, you know, in some of these that he named, we really don't know a lot of background information on them other than their names and what Paul said.

00:46:43.440 So there's not a whole lot of deep exegesis we can do on, you know, exactly who these guys were and what the background story they had was.

00:46:55.460 my guess is is that some of some of them would have been would have fit into the first corinthians

00:47:02.040 three uh paradigm what paul was speaking of some of them um are not in heaven now they're yeah some

00:47:10.420 more goats that looked like sheep initially they look like sheep but that's the rocky soil of

00:47:17.480 matthew 13 right you know initially they look good but uh then the sun comes out trials of life

00:47:22.920 scorched them away there's there's no root there there's no fertile soil you know they look good

00:47:27.940 for a while but then they they went out from us because they were not of us so right right it's a

00:47:34.160 i think there's some of both there yep okay that's fair enough all right well let's go ahead and uh

00:47:40.360 wrap up so if you're listening and you're not already one of our responders that's what we call

00:47:45.460 our club members those are the people who we really just can't do this ministry without you

00:47:49.440 the people who are praying for us, caring for us, and financially supporting this ministry so that

00:47:53.700 we can put out more gospel-centered, biblically faithful, courageous content like this that

00:47:59.240 addresses real issues. And I mean, we address politics, we address culture, and we address

00:48:06.080 theology because at the end of the day, politics is just downstream from culture, and culture and

00:48:11.080 everything else is really just downstream from theology. What is our view of God? Who is God?

00:48:15.900 and who is man in light of who God is.

00:48:18.660 And so if you're supporting this ministry,

00:48:21.000 we thank you for it.

00:48:21.820 If you're not and you feel called to do so,

00:48:24.280 then go ahead and become one of our responders.

00:48:26.740 And one of the benefits that you'll have

00:48:28.200 is you'll have access to our bonus content.

00:48:30.960 And so Justin, all of our guests with Theology Applied,

00:48:33.440 they stay on for an extra five, 10 minutes

00:48:35.380 and we throw out a bonus question.

00:48:37.360 I always ask the question on the end of the episode

00:48:39.600 to whet your appetite and hopefully get you interested.

00:48:42.220 So this is our question for Justin, our bonus question.

00:48:44.760 what are a few of the most dangerous false teachings in the church today besides the

00:48:49.500 prosperity gospel because anybody who follows you they know what you think on that so maybe

00:48:53.460 maybe let me make it more specific and say besides the prosperity gospel what do you think is one of

00:48:58.040 the most uh dangerous false teaching in the church today and who are some of the most dangerous false

00:49:04.220 teachers and those probably those two questions go hand in hand so that's that's our bonus question

00:49:08.660 and uh if you're not a responder we encourage you to uh to subscribe and support this ministry so

00:49:14.000 So, Justin, would you go ahead and close us out by just telling our listeners how they can be praying for you and how they can follow your ministry?

00:49:21.920 Sure, Joel. Yeah. Which one do you want me to do first, that or answer the question first?

00:49:28.080 Oh, no, no. We'll do that. So we're going to you're going to close this out.

00:49:30.940 Tell us how they can follow you and then we'll come back on and we'll do the bonus question.

00:49:34.860 I got you.

00:49:35.500 I got you.

00:49:36.080 Okay.

00:49:37.340 Yes.

00:49:37.980 Yes.

00:49:38.300 You can follow me.

00:49:39.780 You can go to my website, justinpeters.org.

00:49:42.940 And all my contact information is there.

00:49:45.740 I've got a ministry Facebook page.

00:49:49.900 I have a friend who keeps that up for me.

00:49:52.140 I'm also, though, increasingly active on YouTube, my YouTube channel, Justin Peters Ministries YouTube channel.

00:50:00.040 And the way people can be praying for me, this is going to sound like a Sunday school answer,

00:50:04.220 but I honestly mean this. Pray that not only in what I teach, but also in how I comport myself

00:50:12.420 that I would bring honor to Christ. I never want to do anything to bring dishonor to him. So pray

00:50:20.500 that both in the content of what I teach and how I carry myself that I please Christ. That really

00:50:27.800 is my greatest desire.

00:50:29.740 So I would definitely appreciate people's prayers.

00:50:33.860 Great.

00:50:34.320 And if you're going to pray for Justin,

00:50:35.420 feel free with that prayer request

00:50:37.360 to throw Pastor Joel in there too,

00:50:39.060 because that's a good thing to pray for me also.

00:50:41.700 So, all right, Justin, thank you so much.

00:50:43.500 And thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in.

00:50:45.980 We appreciate it.

00:50:47.520 Thanks so much for listening.

00:50:48.960 But real quick, before you go,

00:50:50.900 do us a small favor, take a moment

00:50:52.740 and leave us a five-star review if you enjoyed the show.

00:50:55.760 This is undoubtedly the best way that you can help us get this biblically faithful content to as many people as possible.

00:51:03.560 Thanks so much.

The NXR Podcast - July 19, 2022

THEOLOGY APPLIED - The Most Dangerous False Teachers Exposed!

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript