Justin Peters of Justin Peters Ministries joins Pastor Joel Webber to discuss the importance of calling out false teachers by name. Justin Peters is a minister, author, speaker, and author of the book, Calling Out False Teachers: How To Protect Your Family from Spiritual Poisonous False Teachers .
00:01:41.100All right, welcome to another episode of Theology Applied.
00:01:44.100I'm Pastor Joel Webin with Right Response Ministries.
00:01:47.000Today, I'm honored to have as a special guest, Justin Peters with Justin Peters Ministries.
00:01:52.420He's been a blessing to me over the last couple of years.
00:01:55.420He wrote an endorsement for the first book that I wrote, a book on the assurance of salvation.
00:02:01.120And we had the pleasure of getting together and having lunch when I was still living in San Diego with one of our friends, Michael Cirillo.
00:02:07.620And so he's just been a blessing to me.
00:02:09.180had conversations from time to time over the years, and just his insight and his courage to
00:02:14.960be able to be a discernment minister, protecting the flock of God from ravaged wolves that would
00:02:21.540seek to devour the people of God if they could. And so I'm grateful for him. And without further
00:02:27.780ado, let's go ahead and get started. Justin, could you tell us about yourself, your ministry,
00:02:32.480and what you got going on? Sure, Joel. Well, first, it's a pleasure to be with you. It's good to
00:02:37.700see you again. And I appreciate your kind words of encouragement and praise the Lord for the work
00:02:43.560that you're doing in the ministry that he has entrusted to you. So yes, my name is Justin
00:02:49.160Peters. I have a ministry that is very uncreatively entitled Justin Peters Ministries. And I'm an
00:02:56.860evangelist. I travel and preach and teach. And that for which I am most well known is dealing
00:03:05.200with false teachers. I have a seminar entitled Clouds Without Water. And Clouds Without Water
00:03:11.140is a reference in the book of Jude, verse 12. Jude refers to false teachers in a number of
00:03:16.140different ways, one of which is Clouds Without Water. So that's the genesis there of the title.
00:03:23.140And it deals specifically with the Word of Faith movement, the health and wealth,
00:03:28.280name it and claim it, gospel, prosperity gospel, the doctrine that says it's always God's will
00:03:32.400for a Christian to be wealthy, always God's will for a Christian to be physically healed.
00:03:37.580It's led by people such as Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, Creflo Dollar, Joel Osteen, Joyce Meyer,
00:03:44.720some of those folks. And so that has taken me all around the world, across the United States
00:03:51.400and around the world, preaching and teaching. But it's not my only interest. I mean, that's
00:03:56.980kind of what people tend to think of when they think of me but I have other interests as well
00:04:02.280my first commitment is to exposition expository preaching and so I do I do quite a bit of that
00:04:09.540as well but the clouds without water is what I'm most known for great great that's that's how I
00:04:17.480first kind of found you and became interested in your work and and I yeah I just appreciate
00:04:23.020your courage and preaching the truth. So second thing that I wanted to get to that people tend to
00:04:29.380struggle with is just the idea of calling out false teachers by name. So the title of this
00:04:34.200episode for lack of creativity, as you said earlier, is calling out false teachers by name.
00:04:40.180And I think people understand, most people in the church today, they understand that there are,
00:04:45.080you know, false teachers and false teachings. But I think what I've encountered in my pastoral
00:04:51.800ministry as I've done some of this and following in your footsteps and calling out false teachers
00:04:55.980by name is, um, I hear a lot of Christians say, you know, well, why don't you just address false
00:05:00.560teaching, um, without, without addressing the false teachers, or I've even had other people,
00:05:06.000you know, who would be maybe even extra sensitive. And so they would say, well, don't even address
00:05:11.500false teaching. Um, just, just teach true teaching. And if you just focus on the truth,
00:05:17.640then you know like you don't need to to talk about everything that's wrong you know you don't need to
00:05:22.300always be criticizing they kind of have that mentality where they think you're being critical
00:05:27.500you have a critical spirit by always calling something out so it's so there's already enough
00:05:32.920people who rub the wrong way when you call something out there's certainly people rub the
00:05:37.180wrong way when you call someone out and so the title of the you know this episode is you know
00:05:41.920calling out false teachers by name. And so should false teachers be called out by name?
00:05:47.240But further than that, because I know your answer, most of our listeners do too.
00:05:52.180Why? So kind of three parts. Why should they be called out by name? How is that good? How's that
00:05:57.280beneficial? Why is that necessary? Who should do this? Should Christians be doing this? Should
00:06:02.400Joe Blow Christian be doing this? Or is it reserved for pastors or evangelists? So who should do it?
00:06:07.720Why should it be done? And then lastly, what's the proper context? Or you could say where. So why and who and where? Is it reserved for a conference about false teachers? Is it reserved for a podcast, you know, or show setting like what we're doing now? Or what about Sunday morning, the Lord's Day in the pulpit? What about on social media? Those kinds of things. So should false teachers be called out by name? And then why? Who should do it? And where? What's the proper context?
00:06:36.960Okay. All right. So, in short, yes, we should call out false teachers publicly by name.
00:06:46.920Let's lay a little groundwork here. You mentioned those who would say, oh, well, we should just teach the truth.
00:06:53.240You don't have to worry about error. Teach the truth. You know, just be positive.
00:06:56.320You don't have to worry about the error. Well, for one thing, pointing out error is in and of itself positive.
00:07:04.160But Scripture actually commands us to do both, to teach the truth of Scripture as well as warn people about false doctrine.
00:07:14.540In fact, Titus chapter 1 verse 9 says, teach sound doctrine and refute those who contradict.
00:07:23.620So it's not an either or, it's a both and.
00:07:28.440In fact, this would probably surprise a lot of folks.
00:07:32.74026 of the 27 books in the New Testament directly warn about false teachers and or false teaching.
00:07:42.860Only the book of Philemon, the short little book of Philemon, doesn't say anything about it one way or the other.
00:07:48.360So 26 of the 27 books in the New Testament do.
00:07:51.780So warning about false doctrine, false teaching and false teachers is a very prominent theme in the New Testament.
00:08:00.040And so you'd really have to do, you would have to be, you would have to get to the point of being intentionally dishonest with the text of Scripture to say that we shouldn't be doing this because it is just all throughout the New Testament.
00:08:16.300You really cannot miss it unless you're just trying to.
00:08:21.300So, yes, it's not either or, it's to both ends.
00:08:25.880So, first question is, why should we be doing it, correct?
00:08:30.040And we will, A, we must do it because we have a command from Scripture to do it.
00:08:36.12016, 17, Paul says, mark those who cause divisions and hindrances contrary to the doctrine which you learned and stay away from them.
00:08:48.080So we're commanded from Scripture to mark those who teach contrary doctrine to the gospel.
00:08:53.440And also, false doctrine, false teaching, and those two terms are synonymous, by the way, doctrine and teaching.
00:09:02.440But they pose a real threat to people, both to unbelievers and to believers.
00:09:12.280Paul says that, he writes to Timothy and says that false teaching, idle chatter, it spreads like gangrene.
00:09:20.100error is error always begets more error okay error is never isolated it left unchecked error
00:09:29.780spreads like gangrene it always begets more error and so unless you if you don't engage it and i
00:09:38.600guess to quote barney fife if you don't nip it in the bud i might be dating myself there
00:09:42.980but if you don't nip in the bud it's going to spread it's uh look at the united methodist
00:09:47.700church as an example. Back, so gosh, 70, 80 years ago now, they began to ordain women into the0.91
00:09:57.280ministry, but they were still on other issues, you know, pretty conservative theologically.0.99
00:10:04.220And now the United Methodist Church is ordaining homosexuals, and I mean, they're hopelessly0.86
00:10:09.040liberal. So, uh, error always begets more error. It never just stays isolated. So, um, so that's0.99
00:10:17.520the why, because it does pose a danger. And now granted it doesn't pose any eternal danger as in
00:10:27.200a crit to a Christian. A genuine Christian can never lose his or her salvation. So it's not
00:10:31.400like it's going to lead them, uh, to losing a salvation, but it can divert them. It can stunt
00:10:37.040their sanctification. It can stunt their price. Uh, it can confuse them. It can be, um, uh,
00:10:44.820very, uh, what's the word I'm looking for? Very, uh, uh, it can be devastating to them, at least
00:10:51.080in a, in a temporary sense. I mean, eventually a genuine believer will kind of get back on the
00:10:57.280right track, but it can absolutely stunt their, their growth and cause a lot of confusion
00:11:01.900unnecessarily so uh so so that's the why uh and the in the in the what is that correct what's the
00:11:10.420next question yeah who and where what's the proper context aka where but then also who who should do
00:11:16.360it okay so who should do it um all of us should do it this is not just something for the preachers
00:11:24.460or the you know the elders or the conference speakers no this is something that we should
00:11:30.700all be doing. Each and every one of us is, as believers, we are indwelt by the same Holy Spirit.
00:11:38.620Anybody watching us right now, maybe you're not in ministry, but you're a genuine Christian born
00:11:44.060again by the Holy Spirit of God. Guess what? You have the same Holy Spirit that I do and Joel does.
00:11:49.480So this is incumbent upon all of us to do. So it's not just for the preachers.
00:11:54.640and where, well, as I just said, not just at conferences, not just in church.
00:12:04.620We are to always be ready, as the Apostle Peter says,
00:12:08.940always be ready to give an answer for the hope that is within us.
00:12:12.820We're to preach the word in season and out of season.
00:12:16.280That means always be ready to preach God's word,
00:12:19.260always be ready to give an answer for the hope that is within us.
00:12:21.880So it's it's not just something to think about and talk about at a conference or apologetics conference or on church on church on Sunday mornings.
00:12:30.260We always need to be ready to do this because all of us, I would dare say each and every person watching us right now.
00:12:40.460Knows someone who to one degree or another has been led astray by false teachers.
00:15:00.820I write to you because you do know, because you do have knowledge, and because you have been, past tense, every single one of you, if you're in Christ, you have been anointed by the Holy One.
00:15:13.040And this is the same letter where John also says, greater is he who is in you than he who is in the world, you know, and we take that out of context a lot of times in the evangelical church.
00:15:22.760And, you know, you see that right alongside, you know, Philippians, I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me at a football game, you know, greater is he who is in us and we can beat that football team and say, well, no, it's a little deeper than that.
00:15:34.620But greater is he who is in you, speaking of the Holy Spirit that you've been anointed by, and his confirming and resonating ministry with the truth, because the Holy Spirit, Jesus said, he convicts us of sin, and he will guide us and remind us of all that Christ has taught us.
00:15:53.720So the Holy Spirit dwelling within us, resonating with the truth is a more powerful ministry led by a more powerful person, namely the third member of the Trinity, than the devil.
00:16:05.880And particularly what's in view with he who is in the world, referencing Satan, is his deceptive false teachings.
00:16:12.640And so even that idea of greater is he who is in you than he who is in the world is speaking to the very topic that we're addressing right now.
00:16:20.620Now, the topic of what that means is not that just you can beat the other football team.
00:16:24.560What it actually means is that if you're a genuine born-again Christian, you cannot ultimately be deceived in an ultimate sense by false teaching because the Holy Spirit won't let it happen.
00:18:10.560And that's a great question, and I'm happy to answer that.
00:18:15.840It happens on a number of occasions, actually.
00:18:18.420And it goes beyond just warning about false teaching in a general sense.
00:18:24.960The apostolic writers, the writers of Scripture,
00:18:28.060called out false teachers by name publicly on a number of occasions.
00:18:35.000Just a few of these, 2 Timothy chapter 4, verse 10, Paul writes,
00:18:39.660For Demas, having loved this present world, has deserted me and gone to Thessalonica, or Thessaloniki in the Greek.
00:18:46.620Christians has gone to Galatia, Titus to Dalmatia.
00:18:49.660So Paul there, 2 Timothy 4.10, names Demas.
00:18:54.5202 Timothy chapter 1, verse 15, Paul says,0.96
00:18:57.460you are aware of the fact that all who are in Asia turned away from me, among whom are Phygellus
00:19:02.520and Hermogenes. So he names two of them right there, 2 Timothy 2, excuse me, 2 Timothy 1 verse 15.
00:19:11.820Another one, 1 Timothy chapter 1, 19 through 20, Paul says, keeping faith in a good conscience,
00:19:19.900which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith. Among these are Hymenaeus
00:19:25.300and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan.
00:19:29.8402 Timothy 2, 17, this is actually a verse I alluded to a minute ago.
00:19:33.660Paul says, their talk will spread like gangrene.
00:19:36.200Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus.
00:19:41.720Peter, 2 Peter 2, verse 15, forsaking the right way, they have gone astray, having followed0.97
00:19:48.400the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness.
00:19:52.520uh and then third john nine john the apostle writes i wrote something to the church but
00:19:58.080diatrophies who love to be first among them does not accept what we say so uh there's several right
00:20:04.160there was that one two three four five six that was a lot that was great yeah there's a there's
00:20:10.240a couple there's a couple in the bible um no that was really great and i love i love um first
00:20:15.500timothy one i i preached through first timothy about a year ago and uh first timothy is a great
00:20:20.100book of the bible for a church shrinking strategy if you're a pastor and you want to feel like you
00:20:24.320just have too many congregants and you want to you want to narrow them down kind of like a like a
00:20:28.260john john uh chapter what is it chapter six right where jesus they all leave except the disciples
00:20:33.760is that right um but i i yeah we lost a few people but um but i i like first timothy one so he calls
00:20:41.640him out by name at the end like you said hymenes and alexander um but so that's that would be like
00:20:46.220the case study and then and then the principle he gives it to timothy right out the bat i mean
00:20:50.480it's the very beginning of the letter timothy as far as we can tell young man a young pastor
00:20:54.500probably a bit intimidated uh left in ephesus um to you know and he's got a he's got to deal with
00:21:01.920men who are probably in some cases twice his elder you know twice his age and uh he says i
00:21:08.140as i urge verse three chapter one verse three as i urge you uh when i went to macedonia remain in
00:21:13.780Ephesus so that you may instruct certain people not to teach false doctrine or pay attention to
00:21:18.960myths and endless genealogies. They promote empty speculation rather than God's plan,
00:21:24.080which operates by faith. I don't know why I'm using that. I don't like this translation, but
00:21:28.000better translation to charge certain persons, to charge certain persons. And I remember when I was
00:21:34.080preaching that, you know, I was trying to encourage my congregation that the ministry that the
00:21:40.600apostle assigned to timid so it's not just an apostolic ministry it's not just paul's ministry
00:21:44.100he's assigning this ministry to timothy um a young pastor and the ministry he assigns him is not just
00:21:49.680um it's not just to teach what's true and it's not just to charge certain ideas right so it's
00:21:57.240and that's what we would like to say so that word charge it's a charged word charge it's it's you
00:22:01.700know it's a it's it's um to to to rebuke to confront to challenge and um and so timothy as
00:22:08.500a young man is supposed to not let anyone despise him because of his youth. He's called to go in
00:22:13.000there with Christian confidence, no confidence in the flesh, but confidence in Christ and the
00:22:17.220Holy One who's anointed him and dwells within him, resonating with the truth. And he's called to go
00:22:21.460in there and sharply rebuke. That's the word charge. That's what sharply rebuke, not just
00:22:27.280certain ideas, not just sharply rebuke the prosperity gospel, but sharply charge certain
00:22:33.780persons, prosperity preachers. And, and, and I remember just seeing some of the looks on the
00:22:40.520faces of my congregants and like, I really, you know, but it was so plain in the text. There
00:22:45.420wasn't a lot of, there wasn't a lot of pushback. And so I think that that's something that people
00:22:49.720struggle with charging certain persons. And I think, well, I'll, I'll, I'll just, I'll throw
00:22:54.740it to you as a question. Why, why do you think, cause you've already addressed this, you know,
00:22:59.220the why, why do we need to call out false teachers by name? But why, getting more specific,
00:23:04.720why is it distinctly beneficial for the sheep to not merely call out a false teaching, a false
00:23:13.680ideology or idea, but also to call out a false teacher? Because to play the devil's advocate
00:23:20.160for a moment, what if somebody was just sitting here with me and you, and they push back and they
00:23:23.200say, why don't you just do a seminar, Justin, and just give them all, you know, 10 characteristics
00:23:28.420of the prosperity gospel, which I'm sure you've done, you know, something like that probably
00:23:32.140a hundred times, you know, and like what, you know, give, give us a 10 telltale signs of
00:23:36.940the prosperity gospel and make it plain as day, teach a seminar, give hours of information.
00:23:42.960Here's the prosperity gospel. Here's the gospel of Jesus Christ. Here's a prospect and line them
00:23:47.120up, compare and contrast, make it real plain and just equip them with those tools and send them
00:23:51.260home. Why, why do you have to name a prosperity preacher? What would you say, Justin? Yeah, well,
00:23:57.580A couple of things. The first one I would say, kind of what we've already talked about, is that there is a biblical precedent for calling out false teachers by name.
00:24:06.340So that's letter A. That's exhibit one right there.
00:24:11.200Yeah, that's good. And it's sufficient. That's enough.
00:24:13.800Yeah, that's sufficient in and of itself. That's sufficient. That's enough reason.
00:24:17.120But to add to that, I have talked to many people over the years, Joel, who just in general conversation, they would say, oh, yeah, you know, the prosperity gospel, the belief that God wants us all to be wealthy and never be sick, you know, that's just not biblical.
00:24:39.000But then you ask them, well, who are some of your favorite preachers?
00:25:10.560And then, and then I see on their Facebook feed, like all sharing all this stuff by Kenneth Copeland. I'm like, how? And they're like, oh no, he's not a prosperity preacher. And so that I think there's just this disconnect. Why do you think that is? Why do you think, how do people miss that?
00:25:24.500I, you know, it, I don't know, Joel, but I've seen it so much. People do miss it. They just,
00:25:32.440they, they don't connect the dots. I would have to say they're either,
00:25:38.440they're really ignorant of scripture or ignorant of, of what they're the teacher,0.98
00:25:45.500the preacher that they're their favorite one that they've been listening to that0.98
00:25:48.340for some reason, they just don't connect the dots. I literally, one time, this is
00:25:54.220not an ounce of hyperbole. A number of years ago, I was in a Lifeway Christian bookstore,
00:26:00.740and there was a lady who was looking at a copy of The Message by Eugene Peterson, which is,
00:26:06.060we could do a whole program on that. That's garbage. But anyway, and I just couldn't help0.99
00:26:11.200myself. And so I was on my little scooter, and I went up to her. I said, ma'am, I said, I know
00:26:15.640you're not asking my opinion, but I do know a little bit about this. And I said, if you're
00:26:20.080looking for a bible this is not the one you want and so she was very nice she said oh really and
00:26:25.900so I started we started talking about that and uh listened to me you know so it it kind of led
00:26:31.340into another conversation in the midst of the conversation we got talking about various preachers
00:26:34.960and she said I kid you not she said my two favorite preachers are Joel Osteen and John MacArthur
00:26:41.940uh two peas in a pod huh i'm sure i'm sure john mccarthur was flattered if he ever heard that
00:26:52.640it's just uh really no it happens it makes me think i know there's got to be an illustration
00:27:00.380for this that i just i can't i can't think of off the top of my head but it's it's almost like um
00:27:06.320i've you know there's there's some old parable i just can't think of it but
00:27:10.200not a parable from the Bible, but just the idea of, you know, describing, you know how you describe
00:27:15.400something to a blind man, you know, and it feels like this, and it looks like that, and it's this
00:27:23.360size, and, you know, all these kind of things, and then, like, if he could see, right, you could
00:27:27.840describe an elephant, for instance, in just exact detail to a blind man, and then let's say all of
00:27:34.640a sudden, you know, his sight was restored, and he sees an elephant for the first time, he still
00:27:39.360may not necessarily connect the dots. There's just something about when it comes to, well,
00:27:44.720I think just the act of teaching. When it comes to the art of teaching, there's a reason why
00:27:51.000Jesus gives examples. There's a reason why the apostles give. I think there's just something
00:27:56.420about examples. I think when someone's teaching me, when I'm trying to learn something, and they
00:28:02.040just give me the general principle, I'll get a lot out of that. But it's not until they say,
00:28:08.540And here's the general principle, this tenant, this tenant, this tenant, da, da, da, da, da.
00:28:47.940He's saying, I think what he's saying is, because I believe, and I know you do too, and ministering with a plurality of elders in a local church.
00:28:55.260And so he's assuming there's a plurality of elders.
00:28:57.040And I think when you're ministering shoulder to shoulder with brothers in Christ in that kind of capacity, especially in the same local church, it assumes, I think it assumes friendship and a good Christian brotherly love and tender heartedness toward one another.
00:29:14.160Meaning that I think the implication that Paul is saying is if you've got to discipline a fellow elder, you're going to be tempted not to because you like him.
00:29:25.160You know, and so I think in the same kind of thing, like with that woman, you know, like that you're describing or the person is like, oh, I hate that health and wealth and really like, you know, Kenneth Copeland.
00:29:34.280Um, I think that person, I think part of it is that they, they, sometimes they come into these
00:29:39.540convictions later on from a ministry, you know, or, or the, you know, a local church setting,
00:29:46.040or they read a book by MacArthur or something like that. And they, and they come to see the
00:29:49.760faultiness, um, the falsehoods with the prosperity gospel or some other heresy. Um, but, but they
00:29:56.800already have this, I think it's personal. I think it's relational. They already have like this
00:30:01.000relational connection, even though they've never met the person, um, in, in, in actual life, just
00:30:06.260they've been listening to so-and-so for so long and read so many of their books that even though
00:30:11.300they now believe that health and wealth preaching is wrong, they just, they can't come to terms with
00:30:17.500saying, and that's Joel Osteen. Like, no, that's not Joel Osteen because, because there's this
00:30:22.980affection that there's this personal relational bond. It's favoritism. I think there's it's
00:30:29.320favoritism. And I think that's why, because as human beings, we can easily deceive ourselves
00:30:36.480and be blinded, but we can be biased. We are prone to showing favoritism. James talks about
00:30:42.380don't treat poor people this way and rich people that way. And Jesus said the same thing. That's
00:30:46.600just the way we operate in our sinfulness. We are prone towards showing favoritism. There is
00:30:52.600no favoritism with God and we're not like him in that capacity. And because of our fallen nature
00:30:57.620and maybe something to our finitude, there's this propensity towards favoritism. And I think that
00:31:02.360plays into false teachers. And so anybody who's already developed an affinity with a false teacher,
00:31:09.480even if they come out of the false teaching, they might still not, they're just not, it's not even
00:31:15.800that they can't do it, they just won't do it. They will not connect the dots to that person.
00:31:22.040It's the same kind of thing where, you know, people, they come into Reformed theology.
00:31:25.480and uh one of the hardest parts that i've noticed for people coming to reform theology is uh usually
00:31:31.700it's it's it's their high school mentor it's their parents it's people in their church back home
00:31:37.320that's that's not reformed and and one of the hardest things for them is um that to accept
00:31:44.800these things as true but then logically make the progression if this then that and be able to say
00:31:50.960and these people over here doesn't mean that they're not christians necessarily doesn't mean
00:31:54.940that they're not good people in that relative sense, but, but they're wrong. And, you know,
00:32:00.360my high school mentor taught me wrong and my parents are wrong. Like it's, it's like a kid
00:32:06.700when he, when he reaches 14, 15 and he beats his dad in basketball for the first time. And it's
00:32:11.620like, he's so excited out of his mind, excitement. And then later on that night, he feels a little
00:32:16.700sad because he, cause there's something in you that like, you never really want to beat the old
00:32:21.700man you did but you didn't really you always want him to be beyond you you know and and so i think
00:32:27.140there's just like this you know that you know what i mean it's like oh not not not joel osteen
00:32:32.620you know like i i read him growing up as a kid you know what i mean i think there's that relational
00:32:38.060component that people are just it's hard to let go of what would you agree with that oh yeah yeah
00:32:45.240I would. And a lot of it's a lot of people have to do a lot of deprogramming.
00:32:50.820And I can't tell you how many emails I've received over the years.
00:32:55.060People who they feel like they have been lied to their whole life.
00:33:00.840And they they above that, they grieve over how many years they spent in false doctrine.
00:33:10.820And now they see the truth and they're embracing the truth warmly and eagerly.
00:33:15.240but they grieve I've spent my whole life in this stuff and it's um you know some people come out
00:33:24.360of it more quickly more easily than others um some folks think progress in their sanctification
00:33:30.520more quickly than others but but for a lot of people it's hard it's it's a hard thing for it
00:33:35.260to sink into them I've had this wrong for decades maybe you know years I've had this wrong so it's
00:33:44.040it's a hard it's kind of a hard pill to swallow for a lot of people it is yeah to abandon yeah
00:33:49.800because you just i mean to to walk away from something that you've been building and developing
00:33:54.440and investing in for such a long time and to count it all as loss as dung that's a that's hard um
00:34:01.880yeah and i think to you know to walk away from it and in a sense to walk away from them i think that
00:34:09.160that's that makes it really hard to to realize i've been wasting my time with this teaching and
00:34:16.360it's not just that this teaching is wrong but it's this person right because it's it's not just i've
00:34:22.300been in this uh teaching or this doctrine no like that it's always they come together the doctrine
00:34:29.220and the community of people right so i if i've been steeped in the prosperity gospel you've
00:34:34.480probably been steeped in a prosperity gospel community you know i mean in a church like that
00:34:39.480in a family like that friends like that and so you're not just walking away from an idea that i
00:34:45.780think that's what makes it so hard you're not just walking away from an idea you're walking away from
00:34:49.600what felt like a family you know and and uh yeah that's hard and i know you and i both have some
00:34:55.900guys that we have personal relationships with with you know they didn't decide their last name
00:35:00.260you know but they they you know got god you know in his sovereignty opened their eyes and they
00:35:04.780it wasn't the hardest the hardest part for those guys was was not just walking away from the
00:35:09.360teaching but it was it was losing relationships yeah you know they really really yeah yeah all
00:35:17.560right let me ask you this real quick and then we'll go ahead and uh close out our episode um
00:35:22.040but what what about i believe it's first corinthians chapter three i don't even i don't
00:35:26.480want to i got my bible here okay i'll do i i can't let me see this is the csb i'm not a huge fan i
00:35:34.300don't think it's the worst translation but the christian standard bible have you heard of that
00:35:37.720translation i heard of it but i'm not really read it any so i'm not familiar i prefer nasb or esb
00:35:44.580but this is what i got on my desk right now i'm not going to get up so not that that devoted um
00:35:50.720first corinthians i believe it's chapter three you'll know uh but it's where you know paul is
00:35:55.360writing, he's saying, he's talking about the person who builds with wood, hay, and stubble
00:35:59.800versus the person who builds with precious jewels. And the person who builds with the wood,
00:36:03.880hay, and stubble, he says he himself will be saved, but as one escaping flames, barely by
00:36:08.880the skin of his teeth. Now that can't be a false teacher, can it? I have my thoughts on it, but I'd
00:36:15.880love to hear, what would you say to the person who's asking, well, Justin, what about this right
00:36:19.720here that, you know, it seems like some people in their ministry are ministering wrong,
00:36:26.540incorrectly, you know, something that's ultimately going to be burned up. It's not going to, you
00:36:31.420know, God will test it with fire on the last day. And all their work was in vain. It was not
00:36:37.120eternal. It was not correct. It was false. It was wrong. But they themselves were saved. How can
00:36:43.460somebody, how can their work be false, but them be true? Do you know what I'm talking about? Is
00:36:49.000it first corinthians 3 is that right yeah i don't i don't my uh i've got my phone turned off i kept
00:36:55.120i don't enough we just okay i think i found it in my uh in my bag so i don't i think it's first
00:37:02.180first corinthians 3 8 8 through yeah 8 or um 10 verse 10 it says according to the god's grace
00:37:12.060that was given to me i laid a foundation as an expert builder another one builds upon it but
00:37:18.060each one should be careful how he builds, for no one can lay another foundation, right? That's
00:37:24.840like Ephesians 2.20. The foundation is apostles and the prophets. We don't have any more of them.
00:37:29.560Christ is the cornerstone. We've got evangelists and pastors, and we're framers. We're building
00:37:34.200on that foundation. And so another is building on it, but they should be careful how they build.
00:37:38.480No one can lay another foundation. That's already done. It's already been laid. The foundation is
00:37:42.740jesus christ if anyone builds on the foundation with gold silver and costly stones so this first
00:37:48.580corinthians 3 verse 12 with gold silver or costly stones or with wood hay or straw each one's work
00:37:56.360will become obvious it will be manifest for the day will disclose it because it will be revealed
00:38:03.460by fire the fire will test the quality of each one's work verse 14 now if anyone's work that he
00:38:11.100has built survives, he will receive a reward. But if anyone's work is burned up, he will experience
00:38:16.900great loss. He will suffer great loss, but he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
00:38:24.300What are your thoughts on that text? Yeah, well, we'll be saved, but as only by fire,
00:38:33.660through fire. So that the kind of the imagery there is, yeah, you're going to make it into
00:38:39.820heaven but your coattails are going to be smoking so it's uh it is a curious text granted but um
00:38:49.320i mean there's only two kinds of people in this world sheep and goats that's it so anyone who
00:38:54.460makes it into heaven they do so because they are a sheep um but there are there are uh teachers out
00:39:03.660there, preachers, who are genuinely converted, but they either A, have, or both, they either
00:39:12.400either or both have significant error in what they teach. They're not biblically qualified
00:39:22.560to teach. And there are, I mean, not every Christian is biblically qualified to be a preacher.0.98
00:39:30.200so just because you're saved doesn't mean that you should be behind the pulpit0.65
00:39:35.560and there's nothing wrong with that obviously every Christian can't be a preacher we're not
00:39:39.700supposed to be so there's that aspect of it there are teachers out there who have
00:39:46.900significant error they're regenerate but they've got some significant error
00:39:51.720and there's a lot of preachers out there even preachers who have sound doctrine but they do
00:39:59.120what they do for entirely the wrong motives. And that exists as well, unfortunately. And it's not
00:40:09.780that any of us is completely free of pride. We're not. I'm not. You're not. None of us are. This
00:40:17.780side of our glorification, none of us is completely free of pride. But we've got to go to war against
00:40:25.640that pride. We've got to put to death at the knees of the body. And, uh, there's a lot of1.00
00:40:29.660preachers out there who may have sound doctrine. They may look good on paper, but, uh, they do
00:40:34.860what they do for the praise of men. They do what they do. Um, you know, pride is a far bigger
00:40:40.940problem for some than it is for others. And, uh, and, and everything's going to be judged in the
00:40:47.120end, including our motive, why we do what we do. So yeah, there's going to be some people as the
00:40:52.400imagery suggests you you get into heaven but but your coattails are going to be smoking right so
00:40:58.400with that let me kind of just press a little bit deeper so then what do you what do you do because
00:41:04.140it seems like then we almost need a third category not not with sheeps and goats there's only two of
00:41:09.920those but in terms of faithful shepherd false teacher wolf and it seems like there's got to
00:41:15.940be something in between because i what i'm getting at is there were some brothers and i've already
00:41:22.100you know shown my hand right there by using the term brothers but i think there are some brothers
00:41:26.080that you and i would would both be aware of and uh with some pretty big platforms in the church
00:41:32.780today um who you look back on some of their teachings and you're like man that was really
00:41:37.740sound that was that was some good gospel preaching and i praise god for that brother
00:41:42.620there are are just people have come in droves uh to christ because of their ministry they're
00:41:49.160preaching um and then and then there's been a drift as of late it seems and uh and whether
00:41:59.540it's you know like there's the age-old kind of prosperity gospel stuff that you've done a lot
00:42:03.880of work on but there's there's some new some new things popping up their head critical race theory
00:42:09.480um i mean the egalitarian thing keeps coming in feminism but that's that's you know it has some
00:42:16.160new new tactics you know it has some new tricks from time to time but it's the same old same old
00:42:21.240thing but but the the race issue has been a big one critical race theory and i and i praise god
00:42:26.000for guys like tom askell jared longshore votie bockham john mccarthur you know guys who have
00:42:30.360stood up against that but there's some guys that like i i really used to to like their ministry i
00:42:35.880like them and man they just hook line and sinker have gone woke and uh just drinking the kool-aid
00:42:42.980for lack of a better term but i don't want i don't feel comfortable calling them a false teacher
00:42:48.660you see what i'm saying that's what i'm asking like with this third category i think because i
00:42:52.940think they're getting in to have you know what i mean i like they have a gospel message but they're
00:42:57.960embracing this stuff that i i really think that if they if they i think they're trying to hold
00:43:03.340two things in tension that just are diametrically opposed to one another and i think eventually
00:43:07.680because i believe that they are brothers eventually i think they're going to let this nasty stuff go
00:43:11.320and and just hold on to that gospel and repent and i'm and i'm praying and hoping and believing that
00:43:16.600because you can't hold them both indefinitely because they they're both diametrically opposed
00:43:21.800one's gonna gonna beat out the other and um and you know and this woke woke gospel it is another
00:43:28.580gospel and it is in opposition to the true gospel it it replaces repentance with penance you know
00:43:33.720there is no there is now much condemnation in the woke church there's no forgiveness there's no
00:43:38.060uh this the sin of racism is something that's the worst sin of all sins you know and it's it's
00:43:43.440unbiblical and and it's not just unbiblical or extra biblical it it's um it is contrary to the
00:43:48.960teaching of scripture and contrary to the gospel of jesus christ and i and you and i both know guys
00:43:53.580who've they've embraced this and they're talking about their white privilege and and they're and
00:43:58.260why it's why it's sin and you know repenting of being a racist and i'm like well if and saying
00:44:03.060there still are a racist i'm like well then if you still are a racist then you should not still
00:44:06.940be an elder you know if you really believe that then go ahead and resign from ministry you know
00:44:11.400what i mean and so we've got that whole thing going on but some of these guys i really i just
00:44:16.160don't feel and maybe it's me so maybe you need to just call call call me to to have some more
00:44:21.100courage but i don't feel comfortable calling them false teachers at least at this juncture
00:44:25.820what do you think about that is that a first corinthians 3 guy maybe
00:44:29.920very well could be yeah particularly if they don't write the ship if they don't
00:44:36.380abandon it of course as you said a minute ago we would expect them to do that
00:44:39.780uh it's been very disheartening that they have not done so already but uh yeah and and i'm going
00:44:46.020to refrain from naming them because uh i don't at least you know no i don't i know i'm sure you
00:44:52.420and i are thinking of probably a lot of the same guys uh yeah i can absolutely consider them to be
00:44:57.940brothers uh but they have sadly and tragically been enchanted for whatever reason by the social
00:45:06.160justice stuff and and that that is antithetical to the gospel on every conceivable level
00:45:14.540yeah so well then let me ask this real quick so we're saying you know we start off the episode
00:45:20.800saying there is a biblical precedence not just not just as permissible but there there is a
00:45:25.320mandate to name publicly named false teachers but you and i are both not naming some of these guys
00:45:32.600and so i guess i guess my question is um the guys that paul named demas do you think that all the
00:45:39.080guys that paul named hymenaeus alexander demas these guys do you do you think they were all
00:45:43.960do you think they're they were all um were some of them the first corinthians three do you think
00:45:51.280And Paul, the same Paul who wrote 1 Corinthians 3, and some of them will make it into heaven, but with their coattails on fire, they really are brothers, and they really are personally trusting in a true gospel.
00:46:02.680But somewhere in their ministry, they got off track and were building with wood and hay and stubble.
00:46:10.040And I think the guys that me and you were both thinking of would fit that bill.
00:46:13.160Do you think that some of the guys that Paul listed by name were that, or do you think that the principle is you only publicly name the full-blown, bona fide Benny Hinn false teacher?
00:46:30.960And my guess is, you know, in some of these that he named, we really don't know a lot of background information on them other than their names and what Paul said.
00:46:43.440So there's not a whole lot of deep exegesis we can do on, you know, exactly who these guys were and what the background story they had was.
00:46:55.460my guess is is that some of some of them would have been would have fit into the first corinthians
00:47:02.040three uh paradigm what paul was speaking of some of them um are not in heaven now they're yeah some
00:47:10.420more goats that looked like sheep initially they look like sheep but that's the rocky soil of
00:47:17.480matthew 13 right you know initially they look good but uh then the sun comes out trials of life
00:47:22.920scorched them away there's there's no root there there's no fertile soil you know they look good
00:47:27.940for a while but then they they went out from us because they were not of us so right right it's a
00:47:34.160i think there's some of both there yep okay that's fair enough all right well let's go ahead and uh
00:47:40.360wrap up so if you're listening and you're not already one of our responders that's what we call
00:47:45.460our club members those are the people who we really just can't do this ministry without you
00:47:49.440the people who are praying for us, caring for us, and financially supporting this ministry so that
00:47:53.700we can put out more gospel-centered, biblically faithful, courageous content like this that
00:47:59.240addresses real issues. And I mean, we address politics, we address culture, and we address
00:48:06.080theology because at the end of the day, politics is just downstream from culture, and culture and
00:48:11.080everything else is really just downstream from theology. What is our view of God? Who is God?
00:48:15.900and who is man in light of who God is.
00:48:18.660And so if you're supporting this ministry,
00:48:37.360I always ask the question on the end of the episode
00:48:39.600to whet your appetite and hopefully get you interested.
00:48:42.220So this is our question for Justin, our bonus question.
00:48:44.760what are a few of the most dangerous false teachings in the church today besides the
00:48:49.500prosperity gospel because anybody who follows you they know what you think on that so maybe
00:48:53.460maybe let me make it more specific and say besides the prosperity gospel what do you think is one of
00:48:58.040the most uh dangerous false teaching in the church today and who are some of the most dangerous false
00:49:04.220teachers and those probably those two questions go hand in hand so that's that's our bonus question
00:49:08.660and uh if you're not a responder we encourage you to uh to subscribe and support this ministry so
00:49:14.000So, Justin, would you go ahead and close us out by just telling our listeners how they can be praying for you and how they can follow your ministry?
00:49:21.920Sure, Joel. Yeah. Which one do you want me to do first, that or answer the question first?
00:49:28.080Oh, no, no. We'll do that. So we're going to you're going to close this out.
00:49:30.940Tell us how they can follow you and then we'll come back on and we'll do the bonus question.