In this episode, Pastor Joel interviews two special guests, Joshua Lewis and Michael Roundtree, to discuss the role of the Nephilim and the relevancy of the Sons of God for Christians today. In part one, we delved into the question of who are the "Nephilim" and what their role was in the creation of the world. In part two, we discuss the relevance of the "Sons of God" for today's Christians.
00:00:00.000Hi, I'm Pastor Joel with Right Response Ministries, and you're listening to Theology Applied.
00:00:05.780In this episode, I was privileged to interview two special guests, Joshua Lewis and Michael
00:00:10.960Roundtree, the co-host of Remnant Radio.
00:00:13.800Now, this is part two of a two-part series on the Nephilim, the sons of God, and the
00:00:20.160relevancy of the Nephilim and sons of God for Christians today.
00:00:24.220In part one, we really delved into the question of who are the Nephilim and who are the sons of God.
00:00:30.280In part two, which is what you're listening to now, we deal with the question of the Nephilim and the sons of God's relevancy and application for today's Christians.
00:08:10.840And so I feel like that's, in many ways,
00:08:12.500that's what Christ has done in his earthly ministry
00:08:14.680is he's bound the strong man who is Satan himself,
00:08:16.780dealt a crippling blow to, to all of his enemies and then is sending his church, which is a weapon.
00:08:26.060So like Christ says, I will build my church and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it.0.91
00:08:30.600We always think that the church is like this poor little thing on the ropes, you know, just getting
00:08:36.080knocked back and forth. But you know, Satan's ultimately not going to prevail because Christ
00:08:39.820is going to protect us. No, like no, the picture is that the gates, the gates are a defensive
00:08:44.380weapons. So hell is on the defense. The gates of hell won't be able to withstand the battering ram
00:08:50.160of the church because, because the initial siege is by Christ himself. Um, and now the church is
00:08:57.360at the door, uh, with the battering ram ramming down the gates and ultimately hell will not be
00:09:02.800able to prevail. So we're pushing back darkness, expanding the kingdom of light. And the final
00:09:06.920application that I see from this whole idea of the sons of God, um, being actual fallen angels0.70
00:09:13.400actually having sex with human women, actually perverting the biological, attempting, well, not attempting, but succeeding in perverting the biological line of human women
00:09:24.680and attempting to snuff out the seed of Christ, but unsuccessful, and the Nephilim being, whether them being the hybrid offspring of these fallen angels
00:09:36.560or still giant men of renown who inflicted mass actions of violence.0.69
00:09:43.220The point in all of this that I want to make that applies to us today
00:09:49.460And so what I mean by that is, so Ephesians, Michael, you already quoted this,
00:09:53.740or Josh, maybe you did, but Ephesians 6, I hear Christians quote this all the time,
00:09:58.520and it's good, but Ephesians 6, verse 12,
00:10:01.500for we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers,
00:10:04.600against the authorities, against the cosmic powers, this present darkness, against the
00:10:08.900spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. And so you hear Christians all the time. I think1.00
00:10:13.900one of the excuses that Christians make in not getting involved in culture, just surrendering
00:10:19.820the arts to secular society, surrendering education, surrendering, not getting involved
00:10:27.680in culture, not getting involved in politics and especially local politics. I think there's this
00:10:33.240gnostic mentality that just, we're just, we're going to pray away the kingdom of darkness because
00:10:38.700our weapons are not carnal. They're not fleshly, but there's spiritual and our, our warfare is
00:10:44.580spiritual and our enemy is spiritual. But if you take Ephesians 6, 12, and you cross-reference
00:10:49.460that with second Timothy chapter two, verses 25 and 26, it says, it says, or starting at 24,
00:10:56.340the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome, but kind to everyone able to teach patiently
00:11:01.320enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness, because God may perhaps grant to
00:11:07.360them repentance, leading to a knowledge of the truth. Now verse 26, this is second Timothy two
00:11:12.66026, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil after having been
00:11:19.740captured by him to do his will. So our, our battle is not with flesh and blood. The devil is our
00:11:26.780ultimate enemy. He is ultimately spiritual principalities, but the devil captures flesh
00:11:34.260and blood to do his will. And so that doesn't mean that we should take up literal swords and
00:11:40.260kill the infidel. I'm certainly not saying that, but what I'm saying is that this spiritual battle0.58
00:11:45.000has carnal, real physical manifestations. The devil takes people captive. Now we need to
00:11:54.940correct our opponents, our human people components, our neighbors with gentleness, just like
00:12:00.580like Paul says to Timothy, because we don't know God may grant them repentance. But the point is
00:12:06.080that these people, our opponents, they've been captured by Satan. Jesus uses the same language
00:12:11.820in John chapter eight. Your father is the devil. He's talking to people. And in Genesis chapter0.86
00:12:17.660six, sons of God, fallen angels, procreating with people and producing offspring, perhaps,
00:12:24.980or Nephilim, either way, people. And so my whole point is to say, it's a spiritual battle. We wage
00:12:30.060this battle with spiritual weapons, but these evil spirits that we're at war with, they want this
00:12:38.120world. They care about this world. So why don't Christians? Seems like the devil and sons of God
00:12:45.780and fallen angels and nephilim and whatever that it seems like all these spirituals and the prince
00:12:49.760of persia the prince of persia cares about persia but christians don't and so so the christian today
00:12:55.920who say well america you know whatever and i'm not you know no that that's not how the enemy thinks
00:13:01.280the enemy is not gnostic the enemy is not content to just play around up in the heavens in the
00:13:06.540spiritual realm he is using all his spiritual powers to have physical implications applications
00:13:13.360here on earth. And we too, even though our ultimate enemy is spiritual and our weaponry
00:13:18.220is ultimately spiritual, the way that we fight is not just with fasting and prayer and spiritual
00:13:24.920seances. No, the way that we fight is by speaking spiritual truths to people who have been taken
00:13:33.500captive by a spiritual enemy. And we do this with courage and also gentleness because God might
00:13:38.780grant repentance and i would just so that that would be my i think of the apostle paul as a
00:13:43.340weapon i think the apostle paul is a weapon and because of what happened at the cross the apostle
00:13:47.460paul was a weapon in the hand of the enemy and the enemy was disarmed of the apostle paul
00:13:53.680at the cross right so when you think of that like that like hey we're not fighting against flesh and
00:13:59.820blood we're fighting against these principal super spiritual principalities oh yeah and christ
00:14:04.040disarmed them yeah but these principalities that look like human flesh that are beating the
00:14:08.700trash out of me like they really look like flesh right but when the gospel is preached their hearts
00:14:14.600are converted they're transferred out of the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light0.75
00:14:18.440we're presenting ourselves as instruments unto god and not instruments unto the devil the instrument
00:14:24.220language is is weapon war like language um so i think of the apostle paul he was disarmed the
00:14:31.320enemy had the apostle paul as a weapon they used and he was disarmed and and now he's yeah working
00:14:37.900for the kingdom of god joel i have one more little application i could make really quick here
00:14:42.040if you want go ahead okay um so this is michael heiser and some of the stuff we were sharing uh
00:14:47.440a lot of it was from the unseen realm uh michael heiser has kind of popularized a lot of this uh
00:14:52.880kind of refreshed interest in the nephilim and things of that nature but um it's a very good
00:14:58.320book unseen realm and uh but here's what uh dr heiser says he says the babylonian elite taught
00:15:04.960that the divine knowledge of the Eccallus, divine sages, great culture war heroes like Gilgamesh,
00:15:11.880he says they had survived the flood through a succeeding post-flood generation of these giant
00:15:19.380quasi-divine beings. So he's talking about what the Babylonians believed, what their writings taught.
00:15:24.460So their writings taught that these giant people survived the flood is what they taught.
00:15:30.060And the biblical writers took what the Babylonians thought was proof of their own divine heritage and told a different story.
00:15:37.760In other words, the Babylonians are like, hey, the reason we're Babylon, the reason we're so awesome is because we descended from these giants.
00:16:28.780you have genesis 6 the story we just told and then genesis 11 the tower of babel and these all
00:16:34.840uh all three of these like if we just say well we can't figure out genesis 6 so who cares about
00:16:39.820that let's just talk about the other two we're really missing what the the author of uh genesis
00:16:45.380moses is trying to communicate here he's saying like humanity has struck out three times and uh
00:16:52.040and so he's going to start over in genesis 12 with abram so that's part of it the other thing i want
00:16:56.660to focus on is he says even worse the catalyst that spread corruption throughout humankind
00:17:01.540uh is that uh is that part of what's happening here in my in my estimation my reading of it
00:17:08.460is that uh and i've studied a whole lot on revelation so i see this more there but it's
00:17:13.860kind of builds on this genesis 6 story in part and uh is that the biblical authors are explaining
00:17:19.860the problem of evil they're not just dunking on babylon that's part of it but they're actually
00:17:23.700explaining like why is there such evil and when we talk about our battle isn't against flesh and
00:17:28.540blood but against the rulers the authorities the powers of this dark world uh this is just a really
00:17:32.760important thing it's it's important because there is some evil that just can't be explained by
00:17:37.960psychology like how can a person torture his children how can adolf hitler do what he does
00:17:43.620i mean some things are so demented that the secular worldview is utterly without the capacity
00:17:50.900to explain the level of dementedness that humanity enters into.
00:17:56.720I mean, you read the news, you don't have to have me name more examples.
00:18:02.880But actually having an explanation for this, but then further than that,
00:18:07.360having the explanation that Christ disarmed the story behind the story,
00:18:11.920the evil behind the evil, disarmed those powers at the cross,
00:18:15.600and then is coming again to remove them entirely,
00:18:19.360it kind of just gives us a story to explain why is there's all why there's all this mess in this
00:18:24.760world to give us a contributing piece and actually uh finishing the task so to speak
00:18:32.180i mean jesus is going to finish it but giving us a role in this uh right but explaining the story
00:18:37.780behind the story for evil i think is really no that's that's really helpful michael and and i
00:18:42.640think that makes sense within and i don't know if you would agree with this but from my position
00:18:47.580And that would make sense why I think there's a progressive revelation that we see in the Old Testament of the gospel that culminates in Christ, the final word.
00:19:02.580You know, long ago God spoke to us by our fathers, the prophets, in many ways and in sundry times.
00:19:07.220But finally, in these last days, he's spoken to us by his son.
00:19:10.100He's the exact imprint of the father's nature.
00:19:12.320He's the radiance of the glory of God.
00:19:14.380And so there's this progressive revelation that's coming to the world from from the serpent crusher with Adam to the seed with Abraham to the king that's going to sit on the throne of David, you know, and, you know, and so we see this revelatory progression, but then now culminating in Christ.
00:19:39.000And then Christ commissions his apostles to plant churches.
00:19:42.820And then we're taking this work further.
00:19:45.420And I would argue that that's why, that's precisely why the world is getting better, not worse.
00:19:52.560And I know it doesn't look that way sometimes when we watch the news, but that's because scare news sells.
00:19:59.260you know and and uh but the reality is that like you know i like what uh ben merkel and doug wilson
00:20:06.040you know they um they talk about david and they say you know we've come a long way from um from
00:20:11.320a man after god's own heart wearing foreskins around as a necklace around his neck um to you
00:20:17.720know to what a man after god's own heart looks like today you know like like david was was a bit
00:20:23.220of a barbarian you know he wasn't allowed to build the temple for a reason you know and uh because
00:20:28.420God literally says he shed too much blood.
00:20:49.220But anyways, the point is to say that there's a progressive revelation of the gospel throughout the Old Testament that culminates in Christ.
00:20:56.180And then now there's a progressive expansion, not revelation of the gospel, but an expansion of the gospel built on the foundation of the apostles and the prophets.
00:21:07.100And we're building on that and expanding this revelation to the world.
00:21:12.080And as we do, my whole point is to say things are getting better.
00:21:16.820We don't have – now, yeah, there are still – it's like stocks, right?
00:21:23.700So that's not to say it's a perfectly gradual line of improvement, right? Adolf Hitler is a dip, a big dip.0.88
00:21:32.220You know, abortion is a big dip. But the point is that the world is not as violent as it once was.
00:21:41.420But when you look at parts of the world and you look at the worldview behind it, the Western civilization that's not as barbaric, that is not as physically violent, there's a reason for it.0.56
00:21:55.240And it's not because white people just decided to be civilized and, you know, wear wigs.
00:22:02.820No, it's because Western civilization, the foundation of it is Christianity.
00:22:40.640They're primitive in so many ways.0.96
00:22:43.740And so then what's the difference between Europe and the East?
00:22:50.000and so it's either it's either biological which we would reject that that is racist or it's that0.96
00:22:58.180white people were painting their faces blue and going and raping and pillaging countries like0.95
00:23:03.180vikings just like any other people group until the gospel did something that the difference is0.98
00:23:09.120the gospel the gospel changes not just individuals through conversion but it changes societies it
00:23:15.940It applies better laws and better governments and checks and balances.
00:23:21.120I mean, the whole idea of America with our form of government is a form of government that was built on the presupposition of total depravity.
00:23:27.080That's why we had so many checks and balances, was to guard against tyranny, recognizing that these other countries that, like, God bless the poor people in Afghanistan.
00:23:37.920But it's because there aren't checks and balances.
00:23:42.060But part of it is because their worldview.
00:23:44.900I wouldn't say just part of it. I would say that that is the thing. Their worldview doesn't account for sin like we're accounting for in this episode that would put in checks and balances.
00:23:53.980So my whole point is to say throughout the Old Testament, you have a progressive revelation of the gospel.
00:23:59.260It culminates in the earthly ministry of Christ, his life, death and resurrection.
00:24:03.500And then and then Jesus says he binds the strong man.
00:24:08.180So the enemy takes a pivotal blow in Jesus' ministry, and then Jesus commissions not only the apostles, but he commissions us.
00:24:15.820And he says, all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me, therefore go.
00:24:21.940And as we go and make disciples, it's not just that hearts are being converted and we're increasing the heavenly citizens, the population in heaven.
00:24:31.520but but with with the teachings of jesus his commandments to go and make disciples baptize
00:24:37.260them into the triune name and we always forget the last part of the great commission teach them
00:24:41.340to obey all my commands teach governments to obey my commands civil nations the nations are
00:24:48.120christ's inheritance and as we do this um the world is getting better and yes like stocks there
00:24:54.660There are spikes and dips, but it is trending upward, and I look at the world today, and the places in the world that seem to be the darkest often are places that don't have the gospel or have received the gospel recently, like China.
00:25:11.800there are tons of christians in china but that's still in the big scope of human history the gospel
00:25:17.640coming to china is is is a somewhat new advancement and and i believe that by god's great and the
00:25:26.000gospel coming to africa i believe that if america continues in this state of apostasy which which is
00:25:31.780what i would say we're in as a state of apostasy and i know people have problems with that with
00:25:36.500america is not a christian nation well i think we're an apostate nation and and if we continue
00:25:40.980with that, but people in Africa continue to accept the gospel, then if Jesus tarries a thousand0.72
00:25:47.180years, I think Africa will flourish and America could be a third world country. And my whole0.78
00:25:54.320point in saying that is just to say we're not Gnostics. The gospel has real life applications
00:25:59.660and it's not just for spiritual heavenly things to where we're no earthly good. And the gospel
00:26:06.720doesn't just convert human hearts that's the chief thing that the gospel does but the gospel when
00:26:12.120applied to societies um it lends towards human flourishing it makes a difference and uh and i
00:26:20.460think we see that progressively throughout human history and uh and so the difference in nations
00:26:25.980that have flourished and nations that have not is not anything inerrant in in ethnicity but what
00:26:32.800it ultimately is is the fruit of the gospel and nations that that um that are implementing the
00:26:38.340rule and reign of christ and so i think it's worth fighting for so anyways i i know you guys probably
00:26:44.880want to agree with all that you do i don't know i don't know that i didn't do anything there i i'm
00:26:49.580all millennial bro and which is really a pessimistic view of what you have until the 19th century
00:26:55.060amillennial and post-millennial was the same thing and so i'm pretty much in the same place i just
00:26:59.320i just think that when satan gets released it's not going to be all peachy like you think
00:27:03.560i mean i'm messing with you bro um i think it'll be more than a blip on the radar but
00:27:11.040we do shows at five he's tired honestly it's uh we're really close no i agree with you i love all
00:27:16.640that yeah i like it all right well guys that that was awesome let's go ahead and end this episode
00:27:27.720Well, talking trash takes time because if I talk trash, then you're going to talk trash and then we're going to be here for 30 more minutes and everyone is going to be bored.0.97
00:27:34.260So let's go ahead and land the plane.0.99
00:27:36.040I'm going to be the bigger man who doesn't talk trash, which ironically is me talking trash.0.99
00:27:45.300You guys, let our listeners know how they can follow you and how they can – how can they keep up with you and what some of the stuff you guys got in the pipeline.
00:27:55.060And then our listeners, make sure every time you listen to Remnant Radio, come back and listen to me two times just to make sure that they're not screwing with your mind, getting some weird guests on that show.
00:28:05.680Yeah, you're for sure going to get weird guests here on Remnant Radio, people that we disagree with we've interviewed, people that Joel will disagree with and others will disagree with.
00:28:14.280The point of the show is not to have someone on that we're just going to completely agree with.
00:28:18.860Yeah, so guys, check us out, Ruminant Radio, The Ruminant Radio, on YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok.
00:28:26.240YouTube's our biggest, but yeah, check it all out.
00:28:39.980Yeah, many of them we disagree with.0.62
00:28:41.380Uh, there are guys, uh, probably one or two guys we've interviewed that we didn't even know were Orthodox. And the reason we did the interview was to ask those kinds of essential Orthodox kinds of questions. Jesus, the son of God, is he divine? Those kinds of things. Uh, man, I think it's a great place to kind of maybe break outside of the normal things you've been listening to and find out what other traditions have to say about a matter.
00:29:02.040I mean, heck, I think the Lutheran tradition has a lot to add to the Christian faith.
00:29:06.040And they've kind of been their own corner of Protestantism for a very long time.
00:29:09.020And I think that we could glean a lot from them.
00:29:11.540Yeah. And if you name like one of the well-known Bible scholars or pastors, theologians from around the world, we have probably interviewed them.
00:29:57.820We'll do episodes on new perspective of Paul and in the biblical version of the old perspective of Paul.
00:30:05.340There you go. Right. But so, but we'll talk about all of it.
00:30:09.360We'll talk about all of it. And then, and so it's just a helpful, like you said at the beginning of the show, Joel, it busts out of your theological echo chamber, helps you think of thinking some new ways in a safe space that is orthodox.