Pastor Joel with Right Response Ministries sits down with Dave Jenkins to discuss the problem of biblical illiteracy in the church and what you, as a Christian, can do about it. Dave Jenkins is an author, writer, editor, podcaster, speaker, and the Executive Director of Service of Grace. He is also the author of The Problem of Biblical Illiteracy and The Word Explored.
00:06:44.860So we should be preaching the gospel to the lost.
00:06:48.420Unfortunately, it had many ramifications, and it also had devastating consequences.
00:06:53.840And much of the pragmatism of our day can be traced back to that.
00:06:57.760But, you know, the problem became that so many people in that seeker-sensitive movement, they were getting saved in churches with this approach to ministry, but they weren't being discipled.
00:07:10.160And so people left the church because they didn't know what they believed and why it mattered.
00:07:15.800And so, you know, people left the church.
00:07:17.880Then the emerging church happened in the 90s and in response to the seeker-sensitive movement.
00:07:24.980That conversation, it started as discipleship, but it quickly imploded because guys like Brian McLaren and many others, Brian McLaren specifically said, let's put a five-year moratorium on the conversation about homosexuality.
00:07:41.480Of course, he took Steve Chalk's view, and then Steve Chalk is a British pastor, and he popularized Steve Chalk's view about cosmic child – penal substitutionary atonement is cosmic child abuse.
00:07:58.840So this problem with this emerging church movement was that it was a conversation that quickly became divorced from God's word as they had denied essential doctrines that define and give shape to biblical orthodoxy.
00:08:13.300So you might wonder, why do I bring up those two examples?
00:08:16.680Well, I bring them up because of what they show.
00:08:19.400A desire to reach people in evangelism and to disciple each other.
00:08:23.840Those are two biblical ideas that are absolutely critical to the mission of the church.
00:08:28.060Well, the problem is, is that the seeker-sensitive movement focused on evangelism apart from discipleship, and the emerging church divorced itself from biblical Christianity.
00:08:36.820So as we draw this together about biblical literacy, what we see is that far too often in the church, we swing from one theological trend to another rather than grounding our lives and our ministries in God's Word.
00:08:50.560And God's Word is absolutely the fountain for the Christian life.
00:08:54.940God uses his word in the life of the Christian, you know, to teach them the truth because God, the Holy Spirit, indwells the Christian and empowers them to make disciples who make disciples from the word.
00:09:06.700You asked one other question about the book.
00:09:10.160Maybe I could just say a little bit about the approach of the book.
00:14:45.000And it was this big emphasis on rhetoric and and pathos and passions and style, you know, and even that we could track back even further to Rome and the Catholic Church where there was, you know, the word, the pulpit is off to the side.
00:15:00.240The center is the table, the Lord's Supper, which is paramount.
00:15:05.140But we would say that it's the preaching of the word that that takes the center of the stage.
00:15:13.020I think it was Martin Lloyd-Jones who took the pulpit in his church and nailed it to the stage in the center so that it couldn't be moved, so that, you know, there was always going to be front and center the word of God.
00:15:28.320And Rome, you know, Catholic priests were being trained, you know, in a big part of their training was their hand motions and physical gestures, right?
00:15:38.340This massive emphasis on robes and tassels and show and the way that the building was decorated.
00:15:45.340And even, you know, even the phrase that we have hocus pocus, you know, like this kind of wizardry, witchcraft, you know, spell kind of thing, hocus pocus, that actually comes from Latin, a word that I'm not even going to attempt to pronounce,
00:16:00.300but a phrase that the priest with the Roman Catholic Church would say over the Lord's Supper
00:16:06.180that was supposed to be the official blessing that would cause the elements to transubstantiation,
00:16:14.120to turn into the literal body of Christ and the literal blood of Christ,
00:16:20.740But there was this phrase that the priest would use.
00:16:22.860And the people, that's where we get hocus pocus from.
00:16:25.280The people viewed it as almost like they were going to be entertained.
00:16:29.880It was a magic show. It wasn't about the word exposited because most of the people didn't even speak Latin.
00:16:35.980You know, it wasn't even in their language. So it wasn't expositing the word so that people can get the sense.
00:16:41.500I think of like Nehemiah, you know, and Ezra, you know, like that, you know, they preach the law of God so that the people would get the sense.
00:16:51.520And you're doing it in a whole nother language that most of the common people don't even speak.
00:16:57.020and you're emphasizing and putting more of your focus on hand gestures and and what color you
00:17:02.240know tassels you have on your robe that day and and the people are walking out and talking about
00:17:06.920hocus pocus they're not talking about christ and him crucified and so you know so we we have this
00:17:11.620kind of this modern more recent um epidemic in in the american church today of biblical illiteracy
00:17:19.240that you you kind of uh tracked back to the 70s but you know we could we could track it back in
00:17:24.180america to the you know the second great awakening and then we could track it back globally um you
00:17:29.220know even further than that and i would i would definitely um i would definitely point the finger
00:17:33.880at roman catholicism for for much of that so without further ado let's go ahead and dive
00:17:39.460into some of the content of your i just want to say i just want to say amen to that man that was
00:17:44.260awesome anytime we point the finger at rome you know you got to get a protestant to say amen
00:17:49.940Amen. No, I mean, amen to all you said. I mean, thanks. Thanks, Dave. I appreciate it. So so hopping into one of the chapters of your book that I thought was really interesting. I told you before we recorded, I haven't read the book in its entirety yet. But one of the things that caught my eye was memorizing and meditating on the word. And I think that's so important. I'm always encouraging my congregation and and the members of my previous congregation when I was a pastor in California for several years.
00:18:19.800I always try to emphasize meditating on the word.
00:18:48.400So I like how, you know, you've got to memorize.
00:18:50.880It's got to be in your brain to meditate on it.
00:18:53.340You can't think about something that's not in your mind to begin with.
00:18:56.800So the tactic of the discipline of memorizing the word, committing it to memory, but then
00:19:01.480to meditate on the word is to go a step further.
00:19:05.340And I think there's a lot of Christians who, well, we're struggling just to get up in the
00:19:10.040morning, you know, and read the word, but we need to read the word daily.
00:19:13.740And then we need to commit to memory the word.
00:19:16.700but then we need to go a step further like psalm 1 the blessed man who delights in the law of god
00:19:22.060he meditates on the word and to meditate upon the word in my assessment a christian meditation if
00:19:27.680there were such a thing and i would argue there is christian meditation is the opposite of eastern
00:19:32.620or mantra meditation where we seek to empty the mind of all rational thought but christian
00:19:36.960meditation fills the mind and feasts the mind even we could say on uh on on substance namely
00:19:43.220the word of God. And so you're not just reading the word or memorizing the word, but you're
00:19:47.340actually beginning to chew and digest and turn over and think about the word of God. And I can't
00:19:53.440help but think you're thinking about the implications and applications of God's word.
00:19:58.220And I noticed the very next chapter in your book was talking about applying the word. So I want to
00:20:02.760give you a moment, just talk about memorizing and meditation and applying the word of God.
00:20:07.460no amen to what you said i mean you could just uh take the show i'm just joking uh so i think of
00:20:17.620like memorizing and meditating like an atm you go to the atm and you deposit money in the in the
00:20:23.020account and then when you want to take it out you you know enter your pen and you take that out
00:20:27.240scripture memory is exactly the same thing you got to put scripture in to get scripture out
00:20:32.260you know jesus says in luke 6 45 that out of the abundance of the heart the mount speaks
00:20:37.280And so you have to input the Scripture, and the Spirit takes the Word.
00:20:42.040And so we're inputting Scripture into our minds so Scripture can come out.
00:20:45.860I'm even reminded just talking about that off the top of my head here about what Charles Spurgeon said at John Bunyan.
00:20:52.080If you cut him, he'll bleed, but lean, and that's what we're kind of talking about.
00:20:55.920We're inputting Scripture so that when we're faced with a temptation, when we're faced with whatever, even a season of prosperity,
00:21:04.400We should be quoting our scripture to ourselves, preaching the gospel to ourselves and those from the word, not just preaching the gospel, but preaching the gospel from the word.
00:21:15.060Just I always have that very important thing because, you know, we can get into a false preaching the wrong gospel to ourselves and we don't have any hope.
00:21:23.400And we know that the gospel is in the word.
00:21:57.380And when seasons are hard, you know, or when you're facing temptation or a challenge.
00:22:03.000One of the best reasons for memorizing the scripture is that it fuels biblical meditation, which you'd so beautifully just talked about.
00:22:10.520Thank you. And when we memorize, you know, a verse of scripture, we can meditate on it any day, any time.
00:22:16.520Psalm 119.97 says, oh, how I love you a lot. It's my meditation all the day.
00:22:21.880So biblical meditation, it invites Christians into the world of God and his word.
00:22:29.140That's where real refreshment and joy begins.
00:22:31.340And the more we engage in biblical meditation, the more we'll see the word giving off its heat to us, illuminating its truth to us through the spirit, whose word provides insight and understanding, resulting in a passion, you know, for obedience to God by his grace.
00:22:46.460So like you just said so well, biblical meditation isn't where we empty our minds or anything like that.
00:22:51.800It's where we fill our minds with God's truth and where our hearts and minds are inflamed with a passion for God.
00:23:00.640So going so now kind of to the next step. So it's that we've got to read the word. We've got to memorize the word. We've got to meditate upon the word. And then we need to apply the word. And I think that kind of brings us back to the beginning of our conversation, you know, talking about where the church in America kind of got off the rails with, you know, the devices of man being emphasized over the clear prescription of God in his word.
00:23:28.100You know, getting away from the regulative principle of worship, away from sticking to the script.
00:23:34.300And I think part of that, you know, and then eventually what happens is it's almost like there's a pattern.
00:23:40.100It's almost like an equation or a formula, a progression of denial of Scripture that it begins with, I think, you know, a lack of an unbelief in the sufficiency of Scripture.
00:23:53.520Right. So, I mean, that's really what you have with the Seeker Friendly Movement and the Emergent Church.0.99
00:23:57.100the scripture is not sufficient, or at least that's what you have with the seeker friendly
00:24:01.140movement. The scripture is not sufficient for what? For our main goal of seeking the lost.
00:24:06.980The scripture can't do that. And so we've got to do something else. We've got to add something.
00:24:11.400We've got to emphasize something over here and, and, and maybe take some of our focus away from
00:24:16.000the word. And then, but then what happens is you first, and you may not even call it this, but,
00:24:21.100but it is in practice. You can tell by your actions and how much emphasis you're giving
00:24:24.960to programs and how much emphasis you're giving to style and these other things that are not
00:24:29.920word-centric. In your actions, you can tell this person, this group, this ministry, this pastor
00:24:35.820does not believe in the sufficiency of God's word. And then lo and behold, give him a few years,
00:24:42.040maybe a decade, and all of a sudden he starts to deny the inerrancy of God's word. So it's like
00:24:47.300it's, you know, it starts with a lack of belief in the sufficiency of the word. And then there's
00:24:52.820this kind of this lack of belief in the inerrancy, the infallibility, the authority, the perfection,
00:24:57.960the beauty of God's word. And so, so all that said, you know, we want to be Christians who
00:25:04.560don't merely salute the inerrancy of scripture, but in our lives, in our actions, in our practice,
00:25:10.840we, we exemplify our belief in not only the inerrancy, but also the sufficiency of scripture,
00:25:16.500which gets to application? How do we, if we believe the word is not just true, but that it's
00:25:22.300enough, that it's sufficient, we're going to be constantly looking for ways in every realm of
00:25:29.080human society, in every area of our life to apply the word of God. And so could you speak to that
00:25:35.860application for a moment? Yeah, well, I just want to say amen to that. And what you're saying is so
00:25:41.260important because, you know, what is often misunderstood today about the sufficiency of
00:25:45.820scripture is we think oh it's for some part of your of your life or some part of your ministry
00:25:50.520no no no the sufficiency of scriptures is for every part of our life for every phase of our
00:25:56.940life it's it's for you know our life and godliness and uh that's that means it's for every everything
00:26:03.080in our in our lives you know and uh what you said is so good um but to the question you know
00:26:09.340Application, and here's a dirty word in American evangelicalism, I use dirty like this in air quotes because it really shouldn't, but it's a matter of obedience to God.
00:26:22.000You know, we need to understand that the Holy Spirit desires to carry forth the word you hear and study and memorize and meditate and apply.
00:26:31.000and and just one other thing the one of the things with the approach of the book is not just to and
00:26:36.900you hit it so well earlier is is not just how this isn't really so much of a how book there's tons of
00:26:43.420those out there this is more of a why book why do i read why do i memorize why do i meditate why do
00:26:50.660i study why do i apply why do i do the life so i'm getting at the motivations um so and i think
00:26:58.980that's important when we're talking about application for the things that you said. But
00:27:04.020in James 1, 22 through 25, do you mind if I read that? Yeah, go for it. Yeah. Okay. But be doers
00:27:10.960of the word and not hearers only deceiving yourselves. For if anyone is a hearer of the
00:27:14.800word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks intently at his natural face in a mirror. For he
00:27:21.440looks at himself and goes away and at once forgets what he was like. But the one who looks into the
00:27:27.380perfect law, the law of liberty and perseveres being no hearer who forgets, but a doer who acts,
00:27:32.560he will be blessed in his doing. Now, we know that very basically that the Holy Spirit is at work
00:27:37.920in the life of the Christian to help them see and to know Jesus. In fact, Jesus says this in
00:27:43.080John 14, 26. He says, but the helper, the Holy Spirit, and the Father will send it by name.
00:27:48.760He will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said.
00:28:04.860And where he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness.
00:28:09.220So according to our text, James 1, 22, we might know the truth powerfully and personally.
00:28:15.160It can be plain as day as you might see yourself in the mirror as you're getting ready in the morning.
00:28:20.440But James says, if the Word's not being driven down deep into the soil bed of your heart, we're like a man who looks in a mirror and then forgets immediately what we saw.
00:28:31.160When we do that, we go away thinking, ah, I'm good.
00:28:34.480I might even sing this song, It Is Well With My Soul.
00:28:37.420But the truth is we've missed how the Word of God has eminent practical value for our lives.
00:28:43.600You know, James is saying that believing the right things, it should lead to practice.
00:28:47.220You know, faith should lead to actions.
00:28:49.120Those who are generally wise are those who show it through evidence.
00:28:52.800To those who know the right things and don't do them, it's sin, James 4.17 says.
00:28:59.620So back to James 1.23-24, he develops this in a meaningful and a powerful way.
00:29:08.240He's not saying, oh, just look at the word and then look away.
00:31:13.560What do you let, what do you, what do you say?
00:31:15.360What do you tell, you know, a preacher?
00:31:17.080Hey, go preach, you know, you know, he'll, he'll preach.
00:31:21.200So I see that in YouTube, brother, you know, you know, meditating on the word, your heart is warmed and purified by the grace of God.
00:31:30.040You know, it feels us like a car at a gas station, encouraging us into passionate action for the glory of God.
00:31:37.100In Psalm 119.15, he says, I will meditate on your precepts and fix my eyes on your ways.
00:31:43.260You know, King David says he discerned through biblical meditation the ways of God and how to be a doer of the word.
00:31:49.480So as you meditate on the word, ask those questions of the biblical text, you know, because you believe the word.
00:31:55.140And the more questions you ask and you answer about a verse, you're going to gain more understanding and at heart level understanding about how it applies to your life, the life of others.
00:32:05.760And as you do this, you're going to see that the Bible is not just a – it's not just a book as if it was a book of fairy tales and myths, but it's got a gift to help you see the connection between the scriptures, our world, and the lives of others.
00:32:18.860And then you'll start to see what John Stott wrote about in Between Two Worlds, that great book on preaching, what Augustine of Hippo talked about in The City of God, understanding that the kingdom of God is both here in the now and yet also in the future.
00:32:34.160You know, and the kingdom is here now because of the finished and sufficient work of Christ, you know, and through local churches, God is building his kingdom through his people.
00:32:44.100And yet in the kingdom is yet future where he will glorify the precious possession of his bride, the apple of his eye, you know, his people.
00:32:51.360And then they'll be, you know, entirely clothed and like Jesus.
00:32:55.080Amen. Yeah, I can't help but think when it comes to application of the word of God and the sufficiency of the word of God and meditating, you know,
00:33:04.160you know, making the tree go down deep, right? I think that the blessed man, again, Psalm chapter
00:33:10.140one, you know, blessed is the man who, you know, delights in the law of God and meditates on it
00:33:14.540day and night. He's like a tree rooted by streams of water. And I love how it says it bears fruit
00:33:20.280in season. Its leaves are always green, right? So it's kind of like an evergreen tree. So it's
00:33:24.700never, it's never lifeless. It's never dying. It's never even threatened or close to death.
00:33:30.580So it's always vibrant, um, verdant, um, healthy, alive, green, filled with life.
00:33:36.240Uh, but then it says, you know, it's, it's, it's by streams of water, meaning that it's
00:33:40.480not dependent, um, uh, on, on, uh, precipitation on, on the rainfall, right?
00:33:47.680If it's not raining, there's a stream nearby and I can't help but think, you know, the
00:35:57.980And I think part of the problem is we've somehow taken this massive collection of 66 books, you know, a couple thousand pages, depending what translation you have and size print.
00:36:07.960But it's a large book, this Bible that we have, and we've relegated it.
00:36:12.120We've quarantined the the the relevancy of Scripture to come on, brother and the church.
00:36:20.880Right. So the Bible has a lot to say about your marriage and it's got a lot to say about your parenting.
00:36:25.360So we're going to do conferences on marriage and parenting every every two weeks, it seems like, you know, and it's got a lot to say about your church, you know, and, you know, for all those guys who are in ministry and aspiring towards ministry and want to multiply.
00:36:37.960churches planting churches and all that you know the bible's got a lot to say about that
00:36:41.400but but that's it you know and so jesus is lord of my heart and he might even extend in his lordship
00:36:47.640to my home and and and he's lord of the church because you know ephesians 5 like you quoted
00:36:52.160earlier you know christ is uh the head of the church but i can't wait for someone to get in
00:36:56.380there and say you know what christ is head of the church but according to other texts in ephesians
00:37:00.240and colossians uh wouldn't you know it christ is actually lord of all he's actually head of all
00:37:05.400that Christ actually, you know, we're fond of saying, you know, Christ, not Caesar is head of
00:37:11.480the church. Well, actually Christ and not Caesar is also head of the state. According to Romans 13,
00:37:17.120the state, the civil magistrate is God's deacon. He works for God and it falls under Christ lordship,
00:37:24.220his domain, his jurisdiction. And so I think part of the reason why we don't apply the scripture
00:37:31.080in every realm of life is because we actually, in our heart of hearts, we've been taught by
00:37:37.000pastors and Christian leaders that the Bible wasn't written to every realm of life. It was
00:37:42.200written to your heart, it was written to your home, and it was written to your church. But we
00:37:47.220pretend as though the Bible has nothing to say about the civil realm or about the marketplace
00:37:52.980or about vocation or about all these other, like I think of Francis Schaeffer, I like him,
00:37:57.320his seven mountains. And we think that the Bible doesn't have anything to say about these things.
00:38:01.680And I think the reason why is it's all tied intrinsically to Jesus' Lordship. And the last
00:38:07.220thing I'll say is I remember R.C. Sproul telling a story one time in one of his teachings where he
00:38:11.600said that he was meeting with an old friend. They had gone to seminary together. And this old
00:38:18.000friend, he was so grieved. They had dinner together and were catching up. The guy was in town visiting.
00:38:22.960And he said, you know, I don't believe in the inerrancy of scripture anymore.
00:38:46.380And R.C., you know, without skipping a beat, his brilliant mind and his charming demeanor, he responded and said, well, can I ask you, friend, if Jesus is Lord, how is it that he exercises his lordship in your life?
00:39:08.440And so I think my point is when we limit the relevancy of scripture and we say scripture doesn't really speak to blank this area that what we're actually doing is we're relegating, we're confining, quarantine the lordship of Jesus because the scripture is the agency of Christ lordship.
00:39:58.420And oh, if we could get Christians to stop saying and more importantly, to stop believing Jesus is the Lord of my precious little heart.0.90
00:40:15.960And just kind of taking your point in a similar vein, we have a big problem today in the church because we're telling pastors and seminarians to care about only mostly about your witness.
00:40:33.700but where does the bible start we've forgotten that like to your point it starts with our
00:40:40.140character and then you know our witness our character and our witness are not you know i'm
00:40:45.640not separating them they're they're held in tension in the bible and and just to the point
00:40:50.160you have we have to have mature if we want mature disciples in our church we have to teach them
00:40:55.480how to be get in the word to to feed on the word to to delight in the word and and uh then there'll
00:41:02.940be i think every christian because they're indwelled by the spirit if they're born again
00:41:07.040they desire to be useful to christ but we have to stop talking first about our witness and first
00:41:13.640about our character and then we can help them to be useful because they'll be godly you know our
00:41:18.860godliness in the bible it's the fuel for our usefulness in ministry and that's just another
00:41:24.880example to your point about you know we have problems with the lordship of christ you know
00:41:30.400And I resonate with you when like Abraham, you basically essentially quoted Abraham Kuyper.
00:41:36.600I said, yeah, there's not one one square inch where God would say mine, mine, mine, mine, you know, and if I can go here just a minute for a lot for a minute to your point about the state.
00:41:49.960You know, today we saw that Biden said that, you know, he he said that, oh, you know, the CDC came out and said that they could, you know, we could do, you know, if you're vaccinated or whatever.
00:42:03.620And I don't care what you think about that.
00:43:06.760And when we say, oh, it's the most loving thing.
00:43:09.400you're a matter of loving god if you wear your mask and you get vaccinated and it just how do
00:43:15.700i say this delicately it does something to me it's those it does something it does something to me
00:43:22.600it raises my it makes me want to you know get a get a brown bag and and you know uh you know
00:43:32.360that's frustrating. Barf in the brow bank, you know, every time, you know, my wife, God bless
00:43:41.640her, you know, she, she really, um, she, she has grown so much in her fear of God, which
00:43:47.760ultimately that's, that's the antidote for the fear of man. You know, some, some people,
00:43:51.600when you might be listening to this and saying, man, it's just so hard to take a stand because
00:43:55.160I'm, I'm afraid of what will people think? What will people say? You know, and the fear of man,
00:44:00.760The only antidote to the fear of man is to fear something, or in this case, someone even more.
00:44:08.180So it's not to stop caring about what, because some people say, you know, they, you know, what our pagan culture, you know, self-help kind of culture would posit as the solution, the antidote to the fear of man is the fear of you, right?
00:44:20.460that you would you would have a greater fear right a greater sense of of esteem and and care more
00:44:27.560about what you think about you than what others think about you and so how do you get over the
00:44:32.680opinions of others so that you're not a slave to people pleasing and the opinions of man well you
00:44:37.740need to care more about what you know at the end of the day what really matters is what you think
00:44:41.120of you well that doesn't work right because you are just not you're just not important enough and
00:44:47.540you know that deep down inside, you know that you are not significant enough, wise enough, smart
00:44:53.080enough, valuable enough to outweigh the opinions of, you know, 7.8 billion other people on the
00:44:59.260planet. There's only one being in the universe that if you put them on the scale next to the
00:45:04.160entire world population, he outweighs them all by a landslide. And that's the Lord. And so we get
00:45:10.160rid of this, you know, fear of man by ultimately fearing God. And I think part of the reason why
00:45:14.140we have Christians today and even pastors, sadly, bowing the knee to the fear of man is because they
00:45:19.520don't fear God because they never preach the fear of God. They preach the love of God. But one of my
00:45:23.960concerns is that the love of God has been lost on a generation that has not been taught the fear of
00:45:28.520God. And so we need to fear God. And my wife, God bless her. She's grown in that immensely to where
00:45:34.080she fears God more than man. And so she'll join me in what I was going to say, which is we'll step
00:45:39.120into HEB, you know, we'll step into a restaurant or whatever. And we don't wear the mask, you know,
00:45:44.360and we're coming from California. And so we're in Texas. So we feel like we're, you know,
00:45:47.860we're, we're splashing in the shallow end, you know, after being in California, it's a lot easier
00:45:53.100here. Our governor, Greg Abbott, God bless him. You know, he repealed, you know, rescinded mask
00:45:58.080orders and things like that. But my point is, you know, we'll go into HEB and there'll be a couple
00:46:03.380hundred people. And in those, you know, super sized HEBs that we have here in Texas, everything's
00:46:08.360bigger in Texas, including the people, you know, and so, and so we'll go into being passed by a
00:46:13.020couple of hundred people while we're grocery shopping. And we'll be the only people that
00:46:17.260we see in the store without a mask, you know, and, uh, and it's, but it's to your point that,
00:46:22.380you know, just Christians it's, it's back to that witness character thing that you mentioned.
00:46:26.980I'm so glad you brought that up. It's like, well, I want to be a good witness. I want to be a good
00:46:30.440witness. And yeah, but like witness for who witness for what, like, what's the message,
00:46:36.620Right. Like when you say a good witness, the witness is not so much the person as it is the message that they're witnessing to.
00:46:45.220What are you witnessing to? Not just who are you witnessing to in terms of who who are you trying to to to exemplify Christ to preach Christ to.
00:46:56.240But what Christ, which Christ are you trying to preach?
00:47:00.080Are you trying to exemplify? Are you trying to live out?
00:47:02.360And so, you know, Christians, I always think, you know, I always say, like, we don't want to throw any unnecessary punches, but we also don't want to pull any punches either.0.87
00:47:10.700And so if a Christian says, hey, I'm not going to do this because, not because I'm being rebellious, but I don't want to do this because it's not lawful.0.75
00:47:19.340And this is, you know, it's not even a law, period.0.96
00:47:22.520And even if it was, it's not a lawful law.0.77
00:47:24.800And even within the law of the land and the civil magistrate, you know, you read Romans 13, and I always just kind of want to, like, you know, grab Christians by the collar and shake them up and remind them, okay, you know, Paul is writing to a context.0.69
00:47:38.040He's writing to subjects of a monarchy.
00:47:41.260But in God's incredible providence and grace, we're not subjects in a monarchy.
00:47:45.820We are citizens of a democratic republic.
00:47:48.660And our highest civil magistrate is not a human by design, but rather a document.
00:47:53.840and it's not a living document that changes, you know, as different people are appointed to the
00:47:59.160Supreme Court and find some kind of new interpretation. No, it's set. And so ultimately
00:48:05.180when a Christian resists, practices civil disobedience towards a president or a governor
00:48:10.900or whatever it may be, if that governor or president is not in line with the Constitution,
00:48:16.640then ultimately what the Christian is doing is submitting to the higher civil magistrate,
00:48:20.380namely the Constitution, by rebelling against someone who is a rebellious civil magistrate,
00:48:26.720lesser civil magistrate, namely a president or a governor or a congress member.
00:48:31.740And so it's just so since we're going to say we've got to know the scripture.
00:48:36.300We also need we also need to know the civil realm.0.93
00:48:38.620I think Christians have been so turned off by politics.0.80
00:48:42.880And how often have you heard, you know, keep the politics out of the pulpit, keep the poll.
00:48:46.640And so it's like we don't think the Bible speaks to this.
00:48:49.280And then we also just were bored with this. We don't like this. And so Christians, man, we've got such just we're sitting on a treasure trove of the scripture and all that it says, especially in the civil realm right now.
00:49:02.620And man, if there was ever a time 2020, 2021, and it's like we're impotent, you know, it's like we're sitting on on on this mountain of resources.
00:49:13.680And we think the scripture has nothing to say.
00:49:16.320We think that Christ, you know, doesn't, he's not really head of the state and doesn't care to be head of the state and doesn't, you know, and I'm not speaking of a theocracy, but I'm just saying, like, I want America to be Christian, right?
00:49:27.480And what I mean by that is not like Israel, Old Testament Israel, one-to-one ratio, but I, what are we doing in the Great Commission?
00:49:34.160We're trying to make disciples, disciple the nations.
00:49:59.660So, yeah, I mean, it's so it's such a good point because, you know, if every square inch belongs to Christ, then every vocation belongs to Christ.
00:50:08.520And we spend most of our lives doing that work, whatever that work is.
00:50:17.780People say today Christians are anti-intellectual, right?
00:50:21.820But Christians started the first hospitals.
00:50:24.500We started the first education institutions, and on and on we go.
00:50:28.920And just to your point, if we're going to vote out Trump, just to use that example, according to what we've said, Biden should be impeached.
00:50:42.760But we have to we have to be willing to stand up and we have to be willing to say as Christians, OK, what is Romans 13 actually said to our discussion here?
00:50:52.220It's talking about obeying the law of the land and the law of the land is the Constitution, the Bill of Rights in America.
00:50:59.800It's not what the president, whatever the president and his executive order floating out in the wind says.
00:51:06.400It's just not. So we have to stand or some health mandate or whatever.
00:51:11.060we have to stand up and know that we stand on the constitution and the bill of rights
00:51:16.080and as a christian we're not we're not we're not saying that the i'm not saying by extension that
00:51:21.720the bill of rights and the constitution are on par with the bible that would be heresy i'm saying
00:51:27.280but but we have the law of the land and the law of the land is the constitution the bill of rights
00:51:31.920and we so we stand on you know we stand on the word of god you know totally in every every area
00:51:39.000in every phase. And so we, we understand then that from scripture, that when God says the rule
00:51:46.380of the law is, and by the way, that defines our, it defines how the, how the constitution and the
00:51:53.860bill of rights are supposed to even be, you know, exercised and executed in our country, which I
00:52:00.700mean, that brings up a whole nother topic about. Well, it brings up that issue of the law being
00:52:05.840used lawfully. Yeah. Yeah. You can have a right law, but not, not execute it, not legislate
00:52:11.460lawfully. Go ahead. And they're not, and they're not just, just to, you know, wrap that up.
00:52:16.720No, you're right. And I do want to say just as a disclaimer for anyone who's listening. So,
00:52:20.540you know, the constitution being the highest, you know, the law of our land, the highest civil
00:52:24.020magistrate. But I know, I know that Dave and I would both agree that, you know, you might be
00:52:29.860thinking, well, what about Christians in China? You know, what about, what if the law of the land
00:52:33.280is the, you know, um, one child policy or what if, uh, well then, then you, well, then you
00:52:39.080supersede to the highest law of any land, which is the law of God. Um, and, and that's, that kind
00:52:45.240of my point back to the Lord, Lordship of Christ, universal Lordship of Christ over all things that,
00:52:49.780um, you know, the Bible, I do believe that it calls us to obey the law of the land, but even
00:52:54.380then it's to submit to, you know, um, human, um, officials and lesser civil magistrates and all,
00:53:01.800you know, rulers in the land. Um, but even then, um, only so, so far as, as, um, as they are not
00:53:11.020forbidding us from doing something that God commands or, uh, or commanding us to do something
00:53:17.120that God forbids, you know, cause the law of the land, you know, with Nebuchadnezzar and Shadrach
00:53:22.700and Meshach and Abednego was to bow down that 90 foot tall idol statue to worship it when the
00:53:28.360trumpet and the musical instruments begin to sound. Or in the case of Daniel, I mean, it was
00:53:33.200an official decree. It was signed by the signet ring of, of, of, of the King and Daniel chapter
00:53:39.100six. And, uh, but Daniel continued to pray three times a day with his windows open to heaven,
00:53:44.600as was his custom. Um, because that law of the land was in contradiction to the highest law.
00:53:50.820And so we're just, we're just saying, Dave and I saying that even that the irony is that even
00:53:55.400And in our, the human law of our lands, the highest law is, it's not Joe Biden.
00:54:01.880You know, it's, it's, it's the constitution and we're, we're folding even on that.
00:54:06.680So like at this point, our allegiance to Christ doesn't even require us.
00:54:11.320I keep thinking of Hebrews 11, Hebrews 11, right?
00:54:13.740You have not resisted yet to the point of shedding your blood, you know, like in America,
00:54:17.780like it's, I mean, martyrdom in America is, is, is kind of, it's weak sauce right now.
00:54:24.280Now, it seems to be ramping up, you know, and so I don't want to make light of it.
00:54:27.820I think, you know, persecution may be coming.
00:54:30.440But my point is right now, man, we've got it easy.
00:54:32.740We still have something that we can appeal to in human courts and all these.
00:54:36.940And I'm not saying we're going to win because things seem to be corrupt.
00:54:40.580But I'm saying even at a human level, we still have, I think, I personally feel like outside of Scripture,
00:54:46.720I think the Constitution of the United States of America is one of the best documents ever written.
00:54:50.880And and and so we still have a beautiful nation in terms of its foundation, in terms of its roots.
00:54:57.240And we have a wonderful law that is wonderful because it models the law of God.
00:55:02.960And we still have all these avenues of appeal and all at that level.
00:55:07.020And even if we are law of the land was like communist China or something like that, and the highest, you know, civil magistrate was some human official instead of a document that, you know, led according to his own will and fancy and whatever he wanted and was completely oppressing people and doing things completely contrary to God's law.
00:55:27.380Even then we would resist lawfully because we would we would say, hey, this is contradicting the law of God.
00:55:35.260And I always go back to Romans 13 and think, you know, like Paul, like what he's assuming in that text, because he says, would you have no fear of the one who rules over you?
00:55:44.580You know, the one who bears a sword and does not bear it for nothing.
00:56:17.860And so Paul is assuming, and Paul, you know, coming from a context where in many cases, you know, the human officials and civil magistrates were contradicting the word of God.
00:56:28.080But he's even saying in his context that if you follow, if you do that, which is good, then in many cases, it'll go well for you.
00:56:39.260Because even pagans and even God-hating civil magistrates can't help but borrow from the Christian worldview because it's the only thing that works, you know.
00:56:49.760And when Christians, you know, I mean, what are the values and the virtues of Christians?
00:56:55.380We want to be honest and have integrity.
00:56:57.220We want to love our neighbor as we love ourselves and count others as more significant than I said, you know, you know what I mean?
00:57:03.220And so just so so even if you have an unregenerate pagan, God hating civil magistrate, even if that's the case, if you do what is good, not just what he thinks is good, the civil magistrate or what he says, but what God says is good.
00:57:17.340But even in places like communist China, there are many times where things will go well for you.
00:57:24.480And then there are other times, of course, where you will be persecuted and obedience to God will mean pain and suffering to yourself.
00:57:32.880But even that is for your eternal good, your eternal benefit.
00:57:36.620And so anyways, all that being said, any final thoughts on that?
00:57:40.460And then I got one more question for you before we close.
00:57:43.900You know, you mentioned R.C. Sproul and he had that premise phrase, Coram Deo.
00:57:47.340And that means, you know, before the face of God and maybe you're watching this and you're wondering, OK, what does this have to do with me?
00:57:53.040How do I even face this in the midst of whatever?
00:57:56.280You need to understand that all of your life is before the face of God.
00:57:59.420He not only sees you, he knows you because of Christ.
00:58:05.380If you're a Christian, he knows your thoughts. He knows the length of your days.
00:58:08.820He knows everything about you from the top of your head to the bottom of your of your toes and everything in between yourselves, your DNA and everything.
00:58:17.340That might be – that's like a pretty scary thought, but actually it's the most comforting thing because this is your sovereign God.
00:58:24.740He's the one who by the Holy Spirit, he indwells you and he empowers you to this end.
00:58:29.940You're not an animated Christian of God.
00:58:32.340You're a friend of God, and this thought should steal your resolve that you are his and he is yours.
00:58:39.640So no matter what that they do to you, no matter if they come for your house or your job or whatever or your social media and shut you down, good.
00:59:07.100I go immediately into the presence of God because I belong to Christ.
00:59:11.080And so let that thought actually, as we close, put a wrap on this conversation, let that thought actually encourage your heart right now and steal your resolve to stand up, to speak without being afraid and without being unashamed of Christ who has, you know, won the day, won your heart.
00:59:40.840Yeah, if God is for us, then who can be against us?
00:59:43.640What can man, you know, after man who can kill you but then can do no more to you?
00:59:48.640But, you know, do not fear man who after, you know, destroying the body can do nothing else, but rather fear God who has the power to destroy both the body but then also the soul and hell.
00:59:58.360God is really the only person in the universe worthy of our fear.
01:00:03.580and um and and that's you know again that that fear is a for the christian it's not a fear of
01:00:09.960judgment i always say it like the the pagan should fear god um and and fear his judgment but
01:00:16.080ironically that's one of the signs of somebody who is unregenerate is that they typically don't
01:00:20.880they have there is no fear of god before their eyes romans chapter three and so um the non-christian
01:00:26.260is the one who should in objective terms fear god's judgment uh the christian uh no longer has
01:00:31.960a fear of judgment, for judgment has to do with punishment. We've been delivered from that. Christ
01:00:36.780has set us free from that fear of death and fear of judgment. Hebrews speaks of, but we should
01:00:42.000always, even in heaven for eternity, fear God. There's a difference in fearing God's judgment
01:00:46.820versus fearing God himself. And so we have a reverence and awe for God as the creator in heaven
01:00:52.480of earth. And unfortunately, we just, I think we have a lot of Christians who are living, all of
01:01:00.360us and we all fall prey to this, including myself at times, but we often act as though man, we
01:01:07.120attribute far more esteem and far more power and importance and significance to people than we
01:01:14.580really should. And I think part of it is because people really can kill us in this life. Jesus says
01:01:19.180that man can kill you, but after that can do no more. And I think part of this, we just value our
01:01:23.340own lives too much, you know, and but Jesus said, if you're not willing to lose your life for my
01:01:28.280sake, then you'll never really find it. And so I think getting rid of the idolatry of ourselves
01:01:33.700and our own life, this life, here and now, and seeing Christ and His Lordship and the application
01:01:39.980of Scripture to all things and fearing God more than fearing man, those are the kinds of things
01:01:45.780that I think the church needs in this hour. So that said, that would be my answer to the question
01:01:52.380I was about to ask, but let's hear your answer and maybe you'll echo that. But my last question
01:01:56.700is just what do you think at a pastoral level, you know, for myself, I'm a local pastor. I've
01:02:01.700got a lot of pastor friends. What's something that pastors can do for their congregations and
01:02:06.240their preaching and their discipleship and shepherding ministry to help alleviate the
01:02:11.800problem of biblical illiteracy? Yeah, there's six things I have. I'll just run through them. And then
01:02:17.460if you want me to elaborate on any of those, I will. Okay. So good. So first thing, provide
01:02:23.220opportunities for small groups centered on the word prayer and fellowship second uh provide
01:02:27.840opportunities and a time for people to ask questions and encourage people in your local
01:02:31.880church to ask questions third preach expository sermons where the point of the sermon is the point
01:02:36.840of the text and point people responsibility from that text to jesus fourth encourage biblical
01:02:42.640counseling and training your local church and get people that are you know interested in that
01:02:47.280certified through the association of biblical counselors also known as acbc uh fifth encourage
01:02:53.280personal daily bible reading provide classes on the importance of personal daily bible reading
01:02:58.420study meditation memorizing uh scripture application provide classes and teaching on
01:03:04.600the importance of doing life with one another and how to listen to a sermon
01:03:08.060uh six and lastly encourage uh the reading of solid christian resources from the pulpit
01:03:13.720And that one, I think, is so important because, you know, we just said that the pulpit should be central.
01:03:20.240There's actually a chapter in my book where I make that case that we need to have the pulpit be central.
01:03:26.240And so if that's the case, then the pastor from the pulpit commending resources is absolutely critical because it sets the tone for the whole church on what they value and so much more.
01:03:49.960And maybe one of these days I'll have you back on to talk about, especially what you've mentioned a few times throughout our episode today, but just biblical counseling.
01:03:59.400You know, there are many Christians, I think, who, well, yeah, I go to counseling for this, I go to counseling for that.
01:04:04.360And I always, you know, who's your counselor?
01:04:06.720And, oh, don't worry, pastor, it's a Christian counselor.
01:04:41.560But a biblical counselor is especially if they've been certified, like you said, then you can count on them to be someone who is a Christian giving Christian counsel, not just a Christian counselor, but a Christian counselor giving Christian counsel, a.k.a. a biblical counselor.
01:04:56.700So maybe we could talk about that sometime in the future.
01:04:58.940But I'll give you the final word, anything you want to leave our listeners with?
01:05:02.520yeah i just want to say you know you might be listening and wondering what do i do with all
01:05:07.060this and in the book i'm just trying to i'm trying to get you to the light and the god who's given us
01:05:11.480a book and in the 66 books that constitute the word of god and i'm my encouragement is is is as
01:05:18.040you read the book if you get it uh open your bible there's over 110 bible verses in 110 page book so
01:05:25.420there's, you know, there you go. For every page, there's at least one scripture or more. Read it
01:05:32.220along, open your Bible. That's, you know, in Acts 17, 11, the Berean, Paul's commended the Bereans
01:05:37.760for, you know, studying the scripture, searching to see if what he said was from the Bible. So I'm
01:05:42.920doing the same thing. And Thessalonians, you know, the Thessalonians were commended by Paul for
01:05:48.300how they received the word. So that's what I would just commend to you. Be a Berean, get in the word,
01:05:53.120study it um read it delight in it uh get past the idea that it it's it's legalism um and and i and
01:06:01.400i told this on i said this on the for the church for the gospel podcast i said if that's what
01:06:05.580legalism is sign me up uh because that's that's the if that's legalism then i'm a legalist and
01:06:11.880i'm happy to wear that label but it's not so delight in the bible get in the word love god
01:06:18.720love his church love his people and uh then you then you'll find that you'll you know going to
01:06:24.620be growing in godly character um you'll have a desire to engage in evangelism and discipleship
01:06:30.960um to be useful to your neighbor uh to be useful in your city in your community in in a world and
01:06:38.060and we need you we need to stand up and be counted um and and you know i need you i need you to to
01:06:45.180And I need you and you need me and our local churches.
01:06:48.460And 50 times in the New Testament, we're told that.
01:06:51.500So, man, we just, we got to get on it and get with it.