The NXR Podcast - THEOLOGY APPLIED - The Problem Of Biblical Illiteracy

00:00:00.000 Hi, this is Pastor Joel with Right Response Ministries.

00:00:03.180 This is another episode of Theology Applied.

00:00:05.240 Today, we're going to be discussing the problem of biblical illiteracy,

00:00:09.680 especially here in churches in America,

00:00:12.060 and what you, as a Christian, can do about it.

00:00:15.340 I'm pleased to have as a special guest, Dave Jenkins.

00:00:18.760 And now, you're listening to Theology Applied.

00:00:22.400 Applying God's Word to every aspect of life.

00:00:25.840 This is Theology Applied.

00:00:30.000 All right, Dave Jenkins, could you go ahead and just take a moment and introduce yourself

00:00:36.140 to our listeners? Tell them about you, about your ministry, and whatever else you'd like to share.

00:00:41.460 Yeah, well, the first and most important thing is I was saved by the grace of God

00:00:45.440 at the age of five. I was sitting on my mother's lap, and I just, we got in like a little rear-end

00:00:51.160 bumper, nothing major, nobody got hurt, but I just recognized at that moment that I needed,

00:00:56.040 i needed jesus now i didn't have all the you know theological categories at the age of five

00:01:01.720 i really didn't have that start studying theology until i was 13 and uh at 13 i just started

00:01:08.140 devouring i just had an overwhelming hunger for theology and the bible and just started consuming

00:01:13.420 it uh that took me uh you know all to go on mission trips and all sorts of things starting

00:01:21.160 servants of grace writing doing youth ministry and uh starting servants of grace at the age of 19

00:01:27.820 fresh out of high school um i'd had an email list and was writing uh for people then in high school

00:01:35.080 and uh that was growing and and then when i started online it it kind of just took off this

00:01:40.480 is 2000 so before blogs and before podcasts were a thing um here i was going at it and uh then in

00:01:48.280 2001, I got asked to start speaking on an internet radio station and started preaching expository

00:01:53.820 verse-by-verse sermons through there, 21 at the time, and kept doing that, and God kept blessing

00:02:00.160 it. That ministry, I married my beautiful wife at the age of 26. She's Sarah. Outside of my

00:02:08.060 salvation, she is the best gift. I could spend this whole interview talking about her. She is

00:02:13.000 an immense blessing. I wouldn't be able to do what I do. So you asked me before we recorded,

00:02:17.960 what do I do? The simple answer to that $50 million question that I get asked a lot is I am

00:02:23.680 an author, a writer, editor, podcaster, speaker. You know, Service of Grace, I work at Service of

00:02:31.500 Grace. I'm full time with them. I'm the executive director. We have a magazine, Theology for Life.

00:02:37.580 We have many podcasts. The one your listeners might know is Eclipse of Grace. I've had a number

00:02:44.020 of guys Michael Horton and many others Doreen Virtue Elisa Childers on and on it goes but I've

00:02:52.800 been been blessed to do that now for let's see almost in August it'll be 21 years so thank God's

00:03:00.740 grace I'm just going to keep going on and keep my hand to the plow and you know until they shut me

00:03:05.440 down and tell me I can't do it anymore well then I'll go do something else I'll go you know wherever

00:03:11.180 they put me to say, can I do that? I'll go out on the street. And I've done street work too. So

00:03:16.300 I'm not afraid to go on the street and preach Jesus. And they put me in prison. Great. Another

00:03:21.660 opportunity to preach the gospel and raise up future leaders for God's glory. So.

00:03:27.740 Amen. That's great. Yeah, we need bold men who are willing to fight for the truth of the gospel.

00:03:34.220 We also need bold men willing to fight for the truth of the gospel and not necessarily in

00:03:39.100 vocational ministry, but in other fields, other vocations like starting a solid social media and

00:03:47.100 tech platform that Christians can use that won't get shut down or kicked off of Amazon and Apple

00:03:53.560 and everything else. So good luck with that. If there's any nerdy Christian guy listening to this

00:03:58.600 podcast, set your heart to that task and get it done for us. We need somebody to come through. 1.00

00:04:04.280 So all that being said, let's go ahead and just hop right into our topic. Thank you for coming

00:04:08.760 on the show. Thanks for taking some time to introduce yourself. Again, the topic is biblical

00:04:12.980 illiteracy, and I've got your book that you sent me. The name of the book is The Word Explored,

00:04:19.720 and you have as a subtitle, The Problem of Biblical Illiteracy and What to Do About It.

00:04:25.040 So my first question would be this. Could you just take a moment and define biblical illiteracy,

00:04:30.440 or you could do the opposite and define biblical literacy, and then talk about the problem that you

00:04:35.980 see in the church in America today and why you felt the need to write a book like this?

00:04:41.600 Yeah, yeah. Great question. Well, first, first some stats, right? How large is this problem?

00:04:47.380 We're talking about biblical illiteracy. Now, George Barna has dedicated his life to the

00:04:54.180 studying and researching the trends in the church. His research is eye-opening about

00:05:01.660 American Christianity. He says fewer than half of all adults can name the four gospels.

00:05:05.980 Many Christians cannot even identify two or three of the disciples.

00:05:10.260 60% of Americans cannot name five of the Ten Commandments.

00:05:14.220 Several further surveys believe 82% believe that God helps those who help themselves.

00:05:19.440 81% among born-again Christians believe that the Bible teaches the primary purpose in life is to take care of one's family.

00:05:28.140 12% of adults believe that Joan of Arc was in the Bible.

00:05:31.520 Wow.

00:05:32.720 50% of graduating seniors, high school seniors, believe that Sodom and Gomorrah were husband and wife.

00:05:39.500 So we got problems on creation, salvation, the Bible, marriage.

00:05:44.320 I mean, it goes on and on, right?

00:05:47.060 Biblical, defining our terms, biblical illiteracy has to do with not knowing even the most basic facts about the Bible.

00:05:57.040 Not knowing every detail.

00:05:58.620 We're not talking about knowing every detail, every jot and tittle about the Bible.

00:06:04.080 Biblical literacy has to do with knowing the basics of the Bible, such as key facts, ideas, and even stories.

00:06:12.520 So that's pretty important.

00:06:14.940 The other part of this question, where do we get this problem?

00:06:18.420 I think that as I've thought about this quite a bit, how do we get here?

00:06:25.080 I think the reason it goes back to the seeker-sensitive movement that started in the 70s to the 90s, it's continuing to go on today.

00:06:33.300 That was a good movement, and I say a good movement because it had a good emphasis in that it wanted to reach lost people.

00:06:39.600 Luke 19.10 says that Jesus came to seek and save the lost.

00:06:43.640 That's a good thing.

00:06:44.860 So we should be preaching the gospel to the lost.

00:06:48.420 Unfortunately, it had many ramifications, and it also had devastating consequences.

00:06:53.840 And much of the pragmatism of our day can be traced back to that.

00:06:57.760 But, you know, the problem became that so many people in that seeker-sensitive movement, they were getting saved in churches with this approach to ministry, but they weren't being discipled.

00:07:10.160 And so people left the church because they didn't know what they believed and why it mattered.

00:07:15.800 And so, you know, people left the church.

00:07:17.880 Then the emerging church happened in the 90s and in response to the seeker-sensitive movement.

00:07:24.980 That conversation, it started as discipleship, but it quickly imploded because guys like Brian McLaren and many others, Brian McLaren specifically said, let's put a five-year moratorium on the conversation about homosexuality.

00:07:41.480 Of course, he took Steve Chalk's view, and then Steve Chalk is a British pastor, and he popularized Steve Chalk's view about cosmic child – penal substitutionary atonement is cosmic child abuse.

00:07:58.840 So this problem with this emerging church movement was that it was a conversation that quickly became divorced from God's word as they had denied essential doctrines that define and give shape to biblical orthodoxy.

00:08:13.300 So you might wonder, why do I bring up those two examples?

00:08:16.680 Well, I bring them up because of what they show.

00:08:19.400 A desire to reach people in evangelism and to disciple each other.

00:08:23.840 Those are two biblical ideas that are absolutely critical to the mission of the church.

00:08:28.060 Well, the problem is, is that the seeker-sensitive movement focused on evangelism apart from discipleship, and the emerging church divorced itself from biblical Christianity.

00:08:36.820 So as we draw this together about biblical literacy, what we see is that far too often in the church, we swing from one theological trend to another rather than grounding our lives and our ministries in God's Word.

00:08:50.560 And God's Word is absolutely the fountain for the Christian life.

00:08:54.940 God uses his word in the life of the Christian, you know, to teach them the truth because God, the Holy Spirit, indwells the Christian and empowers them to make disciples who make disciples from the word.

00:09:06.700 You asked one other question about the book.

00:09:10.160 Maybe I could just say a little bit about the approach of the book.

00:09:13.960 Yeah.

00:09:15.180 So there's really three things that God loves and that he loves his word, he loves his church, and he loves his people.

00:09:22.260 You know, we know that Jesus bled and died for, you know, the people of God, those who can repent and believe in Christ.

00:09:31.040 And the church is the only, there's a hashtag on Twitter, you know, the church is essential.

00:09:37.480 The church is the only absolutely essential institution because it's the only institution that Jesus bled and died for and rose for.

00:09:44.960 That's Ephesians 5.

00:09:46.320 you know and god delights over his word um all 66 books that constitute the the word of god

00:09:53.320 and so these three things what they do is if we understand that catech these three things that

00:09:58.220 god loves then what we come to understand is that we we don't need to have a checklist approach to

00:10:05.060 uh spiritual growth and and to reading the bible it takes us well past the objection of that daily

00:10:12.460 bible reading is legalism right um and it shows us that um god delights in these things and we

00:10:20.180 should delight in them because as christians we're you know indwelt by the spirit and god

00:10:24.260 we'll talk about this here in a minute but you know that these are this god takes his word into

00:10:29.400 our lives and he he's seeking to teach us and to carry it further into our lives so that you know

00:10:34.860 we'll be um we'll be growing character godly character and then we'll be useful servants of

00:10:40.620 Christ, you know, for his glory. So, yeah, that's great. Thank you. Great answer. You're right. I

00:10:47.580 like what you said that, you know, the pendulum, it just, we overcompensate, we go from one,

00:10:52.900 you know, and then over swing to the other. And so I like how you, you know, kind of used as a

00:10:57.500 description, as an example of that, a case study, the, you know, the seeker sensitive church, and

00:11:02.200 then swinging over, overcompensating to the emergent church. And, you know, we give way to

00:11:08.280 all these things, programs, pragmatism, strategies, you know, schemes, plots, all these kinds of

00:11:15.440 things. Because I think part of it is because we don't actually believe not just in the inerrancy

00:11:21.040 of God's word, the authority of God's word, but really we don't believe in the sufficiency of

00:11:25.320 God's word. We don't think it's enough. We don't think that a faithful expository preaching of the

00:11:30.920 word of God will actually do what God says it'll do. We don't believe that if we're faithful to

00:11:36.100 to send out God's word that, that we don't trust his promise when he says it will not return

00:11:42.560 void. And so, and so we try to do things in our own strength and our own devices real quick about

00:11:49.680 the seeker sensitive movement. I'm just curious, who would you say is kind of for lack of a better

00:11:54.300 phrase, the head of the snake? I always think of Robert Shuler is somebody who comes to mind,

00:11:59.900 but you said it started kind of in the seventies. Who do you, who are some of the people that you

00:12:04.400 would attribute to as the the founders of the fathers of the secret sensitive movement yeah i

00:12:09.640 think of bill hybels uh yeah one example i wasn't alive at that time so um you know i was born in

00:12:18.000 the in the very first part of in 81 and so i wasn't alive in the 70s but i i think of bill

00:12:24.080 hybels and you know willow creek and those kind of things and it's interesting as we even bring

00:12:29.220 that up i mean even they did this whole discipleship study in their church and what they

00:12:35.060 concluded was uh yeah the seeker sensitive movement was essentially a failure by their own

00:12:40.120 admission and they hadn't discipled the people in their church you know and and that's you know 0.91

00:12:45.760 that's we have huge problems i know you've talked about you know deconversion and and de-churched

00:12:51.480 in this and and this is this goes right to those to the heart of those you know kind of issues you

00:12:57.940 know where if you're not going to disciple people with the word you know and and trust the spirit

00:13:04.060 like you were saying to do what the spirit does then well you're you're always going to be going

00:13:10.320 after some attractional ministry some pragmatic approach uh to kind of compensate you're always

00:13:16.380 going to try to have some sort of light show or or whatever it is to you know have attract people

00:13:22.780 and you know that's always the wrong thing and the second half in fact chapters five and six

00:13:29.040 i'm arguing i'm i'm telling i'm encouraging pastors even to ground their ministries follow

00:13:34.840 the example of calvin you know he he left geneva he came back and he preached that same text do

00:13:40.460 that you know pastor do that ground your ministry and biblical counselor do that same thing if you're

00:13:47.440 a writer do that same thing if you're a podcast do that same thing whatever it is that you do

00:13:52.180 ground your ministry, ground your life, ground it in scripture, trust the scripture.

00:13:57.700 Amen. Another thing that I couldn't help but think as you were just talking about the problem of

00:14:03.380 biblical literacy and how we maybe got off the rails with, you know, the secret sensitive

00:14:07.340 movement, the emergent church. I would argue that some of that even, you know, some of the roots of

00:14:11.980 that could be tracked back all the way back to the second great awakening. And I put great awakening

00:14:17.180 in terms of the second in quotation marks, because, um, I don't really think that it

00:14:21.500 was, uh, genuine, it didn't have the marks of a genuine revival.

00:14:25.420 Like, um, like the first great awakening, it was no, um, George Whitefield.

00:14:29.780 It was, you know, there was the, that it just, that wasn't the case.

00:14:32.560 And, um, and that's where I think you start to see like a lot of things, like that's

00:14:36.460 where, you know, the modern, uh, concept of an altar call came from.

00:14:39.700 They called it the anxious, anxious bench, you know, that they would put on the front

00:14:42.960 row and I'm preaching to you now.

00:14:45.000 And it was this big emphasis on rhetoric and and pathos and passions and style, you know, and even that we could track back even further to Rome and the Catholic Church where there was, you know, the word, the pulpit is off to the side.

00:15:00.240 The center is the table, the Lord's Supper, which is paramount.

00:15:05.140 But we would say that it's the preaching of the word that that takes the center of the stage.

00:15:10.440 And maybe you can confirm this.

00:15:13.020 I think it was Martin Lloyd-Jones who took the pulpit in his church and nailed it to the stage in the center so that it couldn't be moved, so that, you know, there was always going to be front and center the word of God.

00:15:28.320 And Rome, you know, Catholic priests were being trained, you know, in a big part of their training was their hand motions and physical gestures, right?

00:15:38.340 This massive emphasis on robes and tassels and show and the way that the building was decorated.

00:15:45.340 And even, you know, even the phrase that we have hocus pocus, you know, like this kind of wizardry, witchcraft, you know, spell kind of thing, hocus pocus, that actually comes from Latin, a word that I'm not even going to attempt to pronounce,

00:16:00.300 but a phrase that the priest with the Roman Catholic Church would say over the Lord's Supper

00:16:06.180 that was supposed to be the official blessing that would cause the elements to transubstantiation,

00:16:14.120 to turn into the literal body of Christ and the literal blood of Christ,

00:16:18.780 which we as Protestants would reject.

00:16:20.740 But there was this phrase that the priest would use.

00:16:22.860 And the people, that's where we get hocus pocus from.

00:16:25.280 The people viewed it as almost like they were going to be entertained.

00:16:29.880 It was a magic show. It wasn't about the word exposited because most of the people didn't even speak Latin.

00:16:35.980 You know, it wasn't even in their language. So it wasn't expositing the word so that people can get the sense.

00:16:41.500 I think of like Nehemiah, you know, and Ezra, you know, like that, you know, they preach the law of God so that the people would get the sense.

00:16:51.520 And you're doing it in a whole nother language that most of the common people don't even speak.

00:16:57.020 and you're emphasizing and putting more of your focus on hand gestures and and what color you

00:17:02.240 know tassels you have on your robe that day and and the people are walking out and talking about

00:17:06.920 hocus pocus they're not talking about christ and him crucified and so you know so we we have this

00:17:11.620 kind of this modern more recent um epidemic in in the american church today of biblical illiteracy

00:17:19.240 that you you kind of uh tracked back to the 70s but you know we could we could track it back in

00:17:24.180 america to the you know the second great awakening and then we could track it back globally um you

00:17:29.220 know even further than that and i would i would definitely um i would definitely point the finger

00:17:33.880 at roman catholicism for for much of that so without further ado let's go ahead and dive

00:17:39.460 into some of the content of your i just want to say i just want to say amen to that man that was

00:17:44.260 awesome anytime we point the finger at rome you know you got to get a protestant to say amen

00:17:49.940 Amen. No, I mean, amen to all you said. I mean, thanks. Thanks, Dave. I appreciate it. So so hopping into one of the chapters of your book that I thought was really interesting. I told you before we recorded, I haven't read the book in its entirety yet. But one of the things that caught my eye was memorizing and meditating on the word. And I think that's so important. I'm always encouraging my congregation and and the members of my previous congregation when I was a pastor in California for several years.

00:18:19.800 I always try to emphasize meditating on the word.

00:18:23.700 I think of Psalm one on your law.

00:18:25.560 I meditate day and night.

00:18:26.940 And previously the verse prior,

00:18:28.880 what David says is I delight in the law of God.

00:18:31.360 So it's not just this begrudging obligatory thing

00:18:34.320 that I'm meditating day and night.

00:18:36.220 I force myself to think about your word.

00:18:38.180 It's not because I love your word.

00:18:39.800 I love your law.

00:18:40.980 I'm thinking about it, meditating on it. 1.00

00:18:42.720 But what I'm always encouraging Christians to do

00:18:44.860 as a pastor is not just memorizing.

00:18:48.400 So I like how, you know, you've got to memorize.

00:18:50.880 It's got to be in your brain to meditate on it.

00:18:53.340 You can't think about something that's not in your mind to begin with.

00:18:56.800 So the tactic of the discipline of memorizing the word, committing it to memory, but then

00:19:01.480 to meditate on the word is to go a step further.

00:19:05.340 And I think there's a lot of Christians who, well, we're struggling just to get up in the

00:19:10.040 morning, you know, and read the word, but we need to read the word daily.

00:19:13.740 And then we need to commit to memory the word.

00:19:16.700 but then we need to go a step further like psalm 1 the blessed man who delights in the law of god

00:19:22.060 he meditates on the word and to meditate upon the word in my assessment a christian meditation if

00:19:27.680 there were such a thing and i would argue there is christian meditation is the opposite of eastern

00:19:32.620 or mantra meditation where we seek to empty the mind of all rational thought but christian

00:19:36.960 meditation fills the mind and feasts the mind even we could say on uh on on substance namely

00:19:43.220 the word of God. And so you're not just reading the word or memorizing the word, but you're

00:19:47.340 actually beginning to chew and digest and turn over and think about the word of God. And I can't

00:19:53.440 help but think you're thinking about the implications and applications of God's word.

00:19:58.220 And I noticed the very next chapter in your book was talking about applying the word. So I want to

00:20:02.760 give you a moment, just talk about memorizing and meditation and applying the word of God.

00:20:07.460 no amen to what you said i mean you could just uh take the show i'm just joking uh so i think of

00:20:17.620 like memorizing and meditating like an atm you go to the atm and you deposit money in the in the

00:20:23.020 account and then when you want to take it out you you know enter your pen and you take that out

00:20:27.240 scripture memory is exactly the same thing you got to put scripture in to get scripture out

00:20:32.260 you know jesus says in luke 6 45 that out of the abundance of the heart the mount speaks

00:20:37.280 And so you have to input the Scripture, and the Spirit takes the Word.

00:20:42.040 And so we're inputting Scripture into our minds so Scripture can come out.

00:20:45.860 I'm even reminded just talking about that off the top of my head here about what Charles Spurgeon said at John Bunyan.

00:20:52.080 If you cut him, he'll bleed, but lean, and that's what we're kind of talking about.

00:20:55.920 We're inputting Scripture so that when we're faced with a temptation, when we're faced with whatever, even a season of prosperity,

00:21:04.400 We should be quoting our scripture to ourselves, preaching the gospel to ourselves and those from the word, not just preaching the gospel, but preaching the gospel from the word.

00:21:15.060 Just I always have that very important thing because, you know, we can get into a false preaching the wrong gospel to ourselves and we don't have any hope.

00:21:23.400 And we know that the gospel is in the word.

00:21:26.240 So just kind of spelling that out.

00:21:28.120 But, you know, we even see, you know, Jesus memorizing scripture, you know, in Matthew 4, 1 through 11, you know.

00:21:34.400 in his encounter with Satan there in the wilderness, and he quoted it accurately.

00:21:39.920 You know, even Satan was misquoting scripture.

00:21:42.920 So as Christians, we ought to memorize scripture so that it's available for the Holy Spirit to use in our lives.

00:21:50.900 In the midst of prosperity, seasons of, you know, that things seem to be going well.

00:21:55.880 That's what I mean by prosperity.

00:21:57.380 And when seasons are hard, you know, or when you're facing temptation or a challenge.

00:22:03.000 One of the best reasons for memorizing the scripture is that it fuels biblical meditation, which you'd so beautifully just talked about.

00:22:10.520 Thank you. And when we memorize, you know, a verse of scripture, we can meditate on it any day, any time.

00:22:16.520 Psalm 119.97 says, oh, how I love you a lot. It's my meditation all the day.

00:22:21.880 So biblical meditation, it invites Christians into the world of God and his word.

00:22:29.140 That's where real refreshment and joy begins.

00:22:31.340 And the more we engage in biblical meditation, the more we'll see the word giving off its heat to us, illuminating its truth to us through the spirit, whose word provides insight and understanding, resulting in a passion, you know, for obedience to God by his grace.

00:22:46.460 So like you just said so well, biblical meditation isn't where we empty our minds or anything like that.

00:22:51.800 It's where we fill our minds with God's truth and where our hearts and minds are inflamed with a passion for God.

00:22:58.780 That's great.

00:22:59.740 Yeah, I love that.

00:23:00.640 So going so now kind of to the next step. So it's that we've got to read the word. We've got to memorize the word. We've got to meditate upon the word. And then we need to apply the word. And I think that kind of brings us back to the beginning of our conversation, you know, talking about where the church in America kind of got off the rails with, you know, the devices of man being emphasized over the clear prescription of God in his word.

00:23:28.100 You know, getting away from the regulative principle of worship, away from sticking to the script.

00:23:34.300 And I think part of that, you know, and then eventually what happens is it's almost like there's a pattern.

00:23:40.100 It's almost like an equation or a formula, a progression of denial of Scripture that it begins with, I think, you know, a lack of an unbelief in the sufficiency of Scripture.

00:23:53.520 Right. So, I mean, that's really what you have with the Seeker Friendly Movement and the Emergent Church. 0.99

00:23:57.100 the scripture is not sufficient, or at least that's what you have with the seeker friendly

00:24:01.140 movement. The scripture is not sufficient for what? For our main goal of seeking the lost.

00:24:06.980 The scripture can't do that. And so we've got to do something else. We've got to add something.

00:24:11.400 We've got to emphasize something over here and, and, and maybe take some of our focus away from

00:24:16.000 the word. And then, but then what happens is you first, and you may not even call it this, but,

00:24:21.100 but it is in practice. You can tell by your actions and how much emphasis you're giving

00:24:24.960 to programs and how much emphasis you're giving to style and these other things that are not

00:24:29.920 word-centric. In your actions, you can tell this person, this group, this ministry, this pastor

00:24:35.820 does not believe in the sufficiency of God's word. And then lo and behold, give him a few years,

00:24:42.040 maybe a decade, and all of a sudden he starts to deny the inerrancy of God's word. So it's like

00:24:47.300 it's, you know, it starts with a lack of belief in the sufficiency of the word. And then there's

00:24:52.820 this kind of this lack of belief in the inerrancy, the infallibility, the authority, the perfection,

00:24:57.960 the beauty of God's word. And so, so all that said, you know, we want to be Christians who

00:25:04.560 don't merely salute the inerrancy of scripture, but in our lives, in our actions, in our practice,

00:25:10.840 we, we exemplify our belief in not only the inerrancy, but also the sufficiency of scripture,

00:25:16.500 which gets to application? How do we, if we believe the word is not just true, but that it's

00:25:22.300 enough, that it's sufficient, we're going to be constantly looking for ways in every realm of

00:25:29.080 human society, in every area of our life to apply the word of God. And so could you speak to that

00:25:35.860 application for a moment? Yeah, well, I just want to say amen to that. And what you're saying is so

00:25:41.260 important because, you know, what is often misunderstood today about the sufficiency of

00:25:45.820 scripture is we think oh it's for some part of your of your life or some part of your ministry

00:25:50.520 no no no the sufficiency of scriptures is for every part of our life for every phase of our

00:25:56.940 life it's it's for you know our life and godliness and uh that's that means it's for every everything

00:26:03.080 in our in our lives you know and uh what you said is so good um but to the question you know

00:26:09.340 Application, and here's a dirty word in American evangelicalism, I use dirty like this in air quotes because it really shouldn't, but it's a matter of obedience to God.

00:26:22.000 You know, we need to understand that the Holy Spirit desires to carry forth the word you hear and study and memorize and meditate and apply.

00:26:31.000 and and just one other thing the one of the things with the approach of the book is not just to and

00:26:36.900 you hit it so well earlier is is not just how this isn't really so much of a how book there's tons of

00:26:43.420 those out there this is more of a why book why do i read why do i memorize why do i meditate why do

00:26:50.660 i study why do i apply why do i do the life so i'm getting at the motivations um so and i think

00:26:58.980 that's important when we're talking about application for the things that you said. But

00:27:04.020 in James 1, 22 through 25, do you mind if I read that? Yeah, go for it. Yeah. Okay. But be doers

00:27:10.960 of the word and not hearers only deceiving yourselves. For if anyone is a hearer of the

00:27:14.800 word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks intently at his natural face in a mirror. For he

00:27:21.440 looks at himself and goes away and at once forgets what he was like. But the one who looks into the

00:27:27.380 perfect law, the law of liberty and perseveres being no hearer who forgets, but a doer who acts,

00:27:32.560 he will be blessed in his doing. Now, we know that very basically that the Holy Spirit is at work

00:27:37.920 in the life of the Christian to help them see and to know Jesus. In fact, Jesus says this in

00:27:43.080 John 14, 26. He says, but the helper, the Holy Spirit, and the Father will send it by name.

00:27:48.760 He will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said.

00:27:52.780 In John 16, 7 through 8, Jesus says,

00:27:55.280 Nevertheless, I tell you the truth, it's to your advantage that I go away.

00:27:59.040 For if I do not go away, the helper will not come to you.

00:28:03.020 But if I go, I will send him to you.

00:28:04.860 And where he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness.

00:28:09.220 So according to our text, James 1, 22, we might know the truth powerfully and personally.

00:28:15.160 It can be plain as day as you might see yourself in the mirror as you're getting ready in the morning.

00:28:20.440 But James says, if the Word's not being driven down deep into the soil bed of your heart, we're like a man who looks in a mirror and then forgets immediately what we saw.

00:28:31.160 When we do that, we go away thinking, ah, I'm good.

00:28:34.480 I might even sing this song, It Is Well With My Soul.

00:28:37.420 But the truth is we've missed how the Word of God has eminent practical value for our lives.

00:28:43.600 You know, James is saying that believing the right things, it should lead to practice.

00:28:47.220 You know, faith should lead to actions.

00:28:49.120 Those who are generally wise are those who show it through evidence.

00:28:52.800 To those who know the right things and don't do them, it's sin, James 4.17 says.

00:28:59.620 So back to James 1.23-24, he develops this in a meaningful and a powerful way.

00:29:08.240 He's not saying, oh, just look at the word and then look away.

00:29:11.340 Keep looking at the word.

00:29:13.060 Let it show you your faults, that it shows you.

00:29:18.280 And James 1.24 says, for he looks at himself and goes away and at once forgets what he's like.

00:29:23.160 That doesn't make sense to us, but that's what James is saying.

00:29:27.140 He's saying when we look in the mirror of God's word, the Holy Spirit comes alongside.

00:29:31.940 It brings it to bear in our lives.

00:29:33.500 He brings conviction, and that should result in conviction and confession of sin.

00:29:40.420 And that's a good thing for us.

00:29:43.040 We're so distracted today.

00:29:44.760 You know, we have a 24-7 news cycle that's coming at us.

00:29:49.640 It's – I mentioned what Jesus says about, you know, out of the abundance, the heart, the mouth speaks.

00:29:56.280 We're being discipled.

00:29:57.940 We're inputting that kind of – we're being discipled by our culture, right?

00:30:03.000 They're telling us this is what it means to be an American citizen and so much more.

00:30:09.480 And they're discipling us about Carl F.H. Henry was a 20th century American theologian.

00:30:16.620 And he was absolutely brilliant.

00:30:18.220 He not only talked about what a biblical worldview is, but he called it a biblical life view.

00:30:22.760 So it's not only what shapes us, it's how we see the world.

00:30:26.000 And that's what the scripture is to do.

00:30:27.740 It's to ground our lives so that we have a biblical worldview so that then we can see the world, you know, through the lens of scripture.

00:30:36.060 You know, and that's what we need.

00:30:38.600 We need to input scripture into our minds and into our hearts.

00:30:43.240 That's what the spirit wants to do.

00:30:44.500 And you might be watching or listening to this and you wonder, well, I feel dry inside.

00:30:51.700 Well, the reason that you feel so dry inside and it seems like you're not making any progress is you got to get back to the word.

00:30:59.240 You got to open that word and you got to read the word and study the word and start at five to ten minutes a day.

00:31:05.400 That's what I'm, you know, talking about, you know, but back to the application aspect.

00:31:11.080 Sorry, I got a little off.

00:31:12.520 No, no, no, that's good.

00:31:13.560 What do you let, what do you, what do you say?

00:31:15.360 What do you tell, you know, a preacher?

00:31:17.080 Hey, go preach, you know, you know, he'll, he'll preach.

00:31:21.200 So I see that in YouTube, brother, you know, you know, meditating on the word, your heart is warmed and purified by the grace of God.

00:31:30.040 You know, it feels us like a car at a gas station, encouraging us into passionate action for the glory of God.

00:31:37.100 In Psalm 119.15, he says, I will meditate on your precepts and fix my eyes on your ways.

00:31:43.260 You know, King David says he discerned through biblical meditation the ways of God and how to be a doer of the word.

00:31:49.480 So as you meditate on the word, ask those questions of the biblical text, you know, because you believe the word.

00:31:55.140 And the more questions you ask and you answer about a verse, you're going to gain more understanding and at heart level understanding about how it applies to your life, the life of others.

00:32:05.760 And as you do this, you're going to see that the Bible is not just a – it's not just a book as if it was a book of fairy tales and myths, but it's got a gift to help you see the connection between the scriptures, our world, and the lives of others.

00:32:18.860 And then you'll start to see what John Stott wrote about in Between Two Worlds, that great book on preaching, what Augustine of Hippo talked about in The City of God, understanding that the kingdom of God is both here in the now and yet also in the future.

00:32:34.160 You know, and the kingdom is here now because of the finished and sufficient work of Christ, you know, and through local churches, God is building his kingdom through his people.

00:32:44.100 And yet in the kingdom is yet future where he will glorify the precious possession of his bride, the apple of his eye, you know, his people.

00:32:51.360 And then they'll be, you know, entirely clothed and like Jesus.

00:32:55.080 Amen. Yeah, I can't help but think when it comes to application of the word of God and the sufficiency of the word of God and meditating, you know,

00:33:04.160 you know, making the tree go down deep, right? I think that the blessed man, again, Psalm chapter

00:33:10.140 one, you know, blessed is the man who, you know, delights in the law of God and meditates on it

00:33:14.540 day and night. He's like a tree rooted by streams of water. And I love how it says it bears fruit

00:33:20.280 in season. Its leaves are always green, right? So it's kind of like an evergreen tree. So it's

00:33:24.700 never, it's never lifeless. It's never dying. It's never even threatened or close to death.

00:33:30.580 So it's always vibrant, um, verdant, um, healthy, alive, green, filled with life.

00:33:36.240 Uh, but then it says, you know, it's, it's, it's by streams of water, meaning that it's

00:33:40.480 not dependent, um, uh, on, on, uh, precipitation on, on the rainfall, right?

00:33:47.680 If it's not raining, there's a stream nearby and I can't help but think, you know, the

00:33:51.060 stream is the word of God.

00:33:52.980 And so the tree, the blessed man, he's like a tree.

00:33:55.160 and he's not just gleaning life, spiritual life from his leaves and branches that he's drinking

00:34:02.600 from the root. It's not just the water and the rain and then the weather that may be there and

00:34:09.840 then may not be there, but this stream that's constant, that's always present. And he's drinking

00:34:14.740 deep, deep down his roots. He's planted by the stream, by this water, and his leaves are always

00:34:21.500 He's green. So he's, he's not on dry. He's not on the verge of death. And yet, you know,

00:34:25.700 the text goes on and says, and he bears his, his fruit and season, meaning that even a spiritually

00:34:31.740 mature, healthy Christian, who's planted daily by streams of water in the word, uh, reading the

00:34:39.240 word, memorizing the word, meditating on the word and seeking to obey, be a doer of the word. I love

00:34:44.760 that you shared the text in James. He's applying the word. Um, even in his obedience, there are

00:34:51.020 seasons of fruitfulness. So a healthy tree doesn't bear fruit 365 days a year. And that doesn't mean

00:34:58.500 that, you know, when it's out of season that it's dead. No, it could still be vibrant and lively,

00:35:05.160 but even good trees, healthy trees bear fruit in season. And so, you know, so all that. So we want

00:35:12.520 to be healthy trees. We want to be the blessed man who's delighting in the law of God, meditating

00:35:16.220 on the law of God, applying the law of God, living it out. And I can't help but think at times that

00:35:21.540 some of it, I think, comes from this notion that I think it's appropriate to use this word. I hate

00:35:28.860 this notion. I really do hate it in the biblical sense. And I think by God's grace, hopefully it's

00:35:35.580 a righteous indignation, a righteous hatred. But Jesus is Lord of my heart. I hate that.

00:35:41.320 No, Jesus, he's just, King Jesus is just not content with the sovereign domain and boundaries of your precious little heart.

00:35:55.540 Jesus, he's Lord of all.

00:35:57.980 And I think part of the problem is we've somehow taken this massive collection of 66 books, you know, a couple thousand pages, depending what translation you have and size print.

00:36:07.960 But it's a large book, this Bible that we have, and we've relegated it.

00:36:12.120 We've quarantined the the the relevancy of Scripture to come on, brother and the church.

00:36:20.880 Right. So the Bible has a lot to say about your marriage and it's got a lot to say about your parenting.

00:36:25.360 So we're going to do conferences on marriage and parenting every every two weeks, it seems like, you know, and it's got a lot to say about your church, you know, and, you know, for all those guys who are in ministry and aspiring towards ministry and want to multiply.

00:36:37.960 churches planting churches and all that you know the bible's got a lot to say about that

00:36:41.400 but but that's it you know and so jesus is lord of my heart and he might even extend in his lordship

00:36:47.640 to my home and and and he's lord of the church because you know ephesians 5 like you quoted

00:36:52.160 earlier you know christ is uh the head of the church but i can't wait for someone to get in

00:36:56.380 there and say you know what christ is head of the church but according to other texts in ephesians

00:37:00.240 and colossians uh wouldn't you know it christ is actually lord of all he's actually head of all

00:37:05.400 that Christ actually, you know, we're fond of saying, you know, Christ, not Caesar is head of

00:37:11.480 the church. Well, actually Christ and not Caesar is also head of the state. According to Romans 13,

00:37:17.120 the state, the civil magistrate is God's deacon. He works for God and it falls under Christ lordship,

00:37:24.220 his domain, his jurisdiction. And so I think part of the reason why we don't apply the scripture

00:37:31.080 in every realm of life is because we actually, in our heart of hearts, we've been taught by

00:37:37.000 pastors and Christian leaders that the Bible wasn't written to every realm of life. It was

00:37:42.200 written to your heart, it was written to your home, and it was written to your church. But we

00:37:47.220 pretend as though the Bible has nothing to say about the civil realm or about the marketplace

00:37:52.980 or about vocation or about all these other, like I think of Francis Schaeffer, I like him,

00:37:57.320 his seven mountains. And we think that the Bible doesn't have anything to say about these things.

00:38:01.680 And I think the reason why is it's all tied intrinsically to Jesus' Lordship. And the last

00:38:07.220 thing I'll say is I remember R.C. Sproul telling a story one time in one of his teachings where he

00:38:11.600 said that he was meeting with an old friend. They had gone to seminary together. And this old

00:38:18.000 friend, he was so grieved. They had dinner together and were catching up. The guy was in town visiting.

00:38:22.960 And he said, you know, I don't believe in the inerrancy of scripture anymore.

00:38:27.140 I just got to come clean.

00:38:28.080 I got to tell you, R.C., I know that you're big on inerrancy and I know it's going to

00:38:30.900 disappoint you.

00:38:31.840 I don't believe in the inerrancy of scripture.

00:38:33.220 I don't believe that the Bible is the infallible authoritative word of God.

00:38:37.200 But don't worry, R.C., you'll be pleased to hear this.

00:38:40.800 I still believe that Jesus is the son of God.

00:38:43.520 Jesus is Lord.

00:38:44.340 There's one thing I'll never let go of.

00:38:45.680 Jesus is Lord.

00:38:46.380 And R.C., you know, without skipping a beat, his brilliant mind and his charming demeanor, he responded and said, well, can I ask you, friend, if Jesus is Lord, how is it that he exercises his lordship in your life?

00:39:02.260 What is the agency of his lordship?

00:39:05.640 And the answer is the Bible.

00:39:08.440 And so I think my point is when we limit the relevancy of scripture and we say scripture doesn't really speak to blank this area that what we're actually doing is we're relegating, we're confining, quarantine the lordship of Jesus because the scripture is the agency of Christ lordship.

00:39:27.480 That's the big issue.

00:39:29.040 So it's Christ lordship. 0.75

00:39:30.640 How far does it go? 0.88

00:39:31.600 Right.

00:39:31.760 Like Simba Mephasis standing, you know, on on pride, pride rock, you know.

00:39:35.980 And what about that dark shadow?

00:39:37.240 There is no dark, shadowy place.

00:39:39.260 When Christ is standing in the air, he's like, all of it.

00:39:42.240 It's all mine.

00:39:43.900 And what is the agency that you extend your dominion, that you speak and exercise your lordship over all these things?

00:39:51.760 My word.

00:39:52.860 My word claims it all, speaks to it all.

00:39:56.100 It's relevant to it all.

00:39:57.300 It applies to it all. 0.71

00:39:58.420 And oh, if we could get Christians to stop saying and more importantly, to stop believing Jesus is the Lord of my precious little heart. 0.90

00:40:06.580 No, Jesus is Lord of all.

00:40:08.560 And because he's Lord of all, his word speaks to all.

00:40:12.460 Would you agree with that?

00:40:14.680 No, brother, I agree.

00:40:15.960 And just kind of taking your point in a similar vein, we have a big problem today in the church because we're telling pastors and seminarians to care about only mostly about your witness.

00:40:32.260 And our witness is important.

00:40:33.700 but where does the bible start we've forgotten that like to your point it starts with our

00:40:40.140 character and then you know our witness our character and our witness are not you know i'm

00:40:45.640 not separating them they're they're held in tension in the bible and and just to the point

00:40:50.160 you have we have to have mature if we want mature disciples in our church we have to teach them

00:40:55.480 how to be get in the word to to feed on the word to to delight in the word and and uh then there'll

00:41:02.940 be i think every christian because they're indwelled by the spirit if they're born again

00:41:07.040 they desire to be useful to christ but we have to stop talking first about our witness and first

00:41:13.640 about our character and then we can help them to be useful because they'll be godly you know our

00:41:18.860 godliness in the bible it's the fuel for our usefulness in ministry and that's just another

00:41:24.880 example to your point about you know we have problems with the lordship of christ you know

00:41:30.400 And I resonate with you when like Abraham, you basically essentially quoted Abraham Kuyper.

00:41:36.600 I said, yeah, there's not one one square inch where God would say mine, mine, mine, mine, you know, and if I can go here just a minute for a lot for a minute to your point about the state.

00:41:49.960 You know, today we saw that Biden said that, you know, he he said that, oh, you know, the CDC came out and said that they could, you know, we could do, you know, if you're vaccinated or whatever.

00:42:03.620 And I don't care what you think about that.

00:42:05.540 OK, that's not the point.

00:42:06.940 But you don't have to wear a mask.

00:42:09.940 OK, well, let's let's let's back up here.

00:42:12.820 He says that's the rule.

00:42:14.340 But let's back up here.

00:42:15.400 How do you have – first off, the president doesn't have the right to make any rule, any law, period, under the Constitution.

00:42:25.100 You cited Romans 13.

00:42:27.220 The law – that's the law of the land.

00:42:29.260 That's what we have to obey.

00:42:30.580 They've never passed any law through the law of the land, through the Congress and the Senate.

00:42:36.620 So he has no basis on which he can make that statement as a private citizen.

00:42:42.700 You know, I'm not excusing, giving, saying he doesn't have the freedom of speech like I do.

00:42:47.480 But the problem is, is they think they have freedom of speech without accountability.

00:42:53.100 And that's what we're being told today is you just say whatever you want to say.

00:42:58.980 They can say whatever they want to say.

00:43:00.700 You know, the left and the socialists and the Marxists and all that.

00:43:04.560 Say whatever you want to say.

00:43:06.760 And when we say, oh, it's the most loving thing.

00:43:09.400 you're a matter of loving god if you wear your mask and you get vaccinated and it just how do

00:43:15.700 i say this delicately it does something to me it's those it does something it does something to me

00:43:22.600 it raises my it makes me want to you know get a get a brown bag and and you know uh you know

00:43:32.360 that's frustrating. Barf in the brow bank, you know, every time, you know, my wife, God bless

00:43:41.640 her, you know, she, she really, um, she, she has grown so much in her fear of God, which

00:43:47.760 ultimately that's, that's the antidote for the fear of man. You know, some, some people,

00:43:51.600 when you might be listening to this and saying, man, it's just so hard to take a stand because

00:43:55.160 I'm, I'm afraid of what will people think? What will people say? You know, and the fear of man,

00:44:00.760 The only antidote to the fear of man is to fear something, or in this case, someone even more.

00:44:08.180 So it's not to stop caring about what, because some people say, you know, they, you know, what our pagan culture, you know, self-help kind of culture would posit as the solution, the antidote to the fear of man is the fear of you, right?

00:44:20.460 that you would you would have a greater fear right a greater sense of of esteem and and care more

00:44:27.560 about what you think about you than what others think about you and so how do you get over the

00:44:32.680 opinions of others so that you're not a slave to people pleasing and the opinions of man well you

00:44:37.740 need to care more about what you know at the end of the day what really matters is what you think

00:44:41.120 of you well that doesn't work right because you are just not you're just not important enough and

00:44:47.540 you know that deep down inside, you know that you are not significant enough, wise enough, smart

00:44:53.080 enough, valuable enough to outweigh the opinions of, you know, 7.8 billion other people on the

00:44:59.260 planet. There's only one being in the universe that if you put them on the scale next to the

00:45:04.160 entire world population, he outweighs them all by a landslide. And that's the Lord. And so we get

00:45:10.160 rid of this, you know, fear of man by ultimately fearing God. And I think part of the reason why

00:45:14.140 we have Christians today and even pastors, sadly, bowing the knee to the fear of man is because they

00:45:19.520 don't fear God because they never preach the fear of God. They preach the love of God. But one of my

00:45:23.960 concerns is that the love of God has been lost on a generation that has not been taught the fear of

00:45:28.520 God. And so we need to fear God. And my wife, God bless her. She's grown in that immensely to where

00:45:34.080 she fears God more than man. And so she'll join me in what I was going to say, which is we'll step

00:45:39.120 into HEB, you know, we'll step into a restaurant or whatever. And we don't wear the mask, you know,

00:45:44.360 and we're coming from California. And so we're in Texas. So we feel like we're, you know,

00:45:47.860 we're, we're splashing in the shallow end, you know, after being in California, it's a lot easier

00:45:53.100 here. Our governor, Greg Abbott, God bless him. You know, he repealed, you know, rescinded mask

00:45:58.080 orders and things like that. But my point is, you know, we'll go into HEB and there'll be a couple

00:46:03.380 hundred people. And in those, you know, super sized HEBs that we have here in Texas, everything's

00:46:08.360 bigger in Texas, including the people, you know, and so, and so we'll go into being passed by a

00:46:13.020 couple of hundred people while we're grocery shopping. And we'll be the only people that

00:46:17.260 we see in the store without a mask, you know, and, uh, and it's, but it's to your point that,

00:46:22.380 you know, just Christians it's, it's back to that witness character thing that you mentioned.

00:46:26.980 I'm so glad you brought that up. It's like, well, I want to be a good witness. I want to be a good

00:46:30.440 witness. And yeah, but like witness for who witness for what, like, what's the message,

00:46:36.620 Right. Like when you say a good witness, the witness is not so much the person as it is the message that they're witnessing to.

00:46:45.220 What are you witnessing to? Not just who are you witnessing to in terms of who who are you trying to to to exemplify Christ to preach Christ to.

00:46:56.240 But what Christ, which Christ are you trying to preach?

00:47:00.080 Are you trying to exemplify? Are you trying to live out?

00:47:02.360 And so, you know, Christians, I always think, you know, I always say, like, we don't want to throw any unnecessary punches, but we also don't want to pull any punches either. 0.87

00:47:10.700 And so if a Christian says, hey, I'm not going to do this because, not because I'm being rebellious, but I don't want to do this because it's not lawful. 0.75

00:47:19.340 And this is, you know, it's not even a law, period. 0.96

00:47:22.520 And even if it was, it's not a lawful law. 0.77

00:47:24.800 And even within the law of the land and the civil magistrate, you know, you read Romans 13, and I always just kind of want to, like, you know, grab Christians by the collar and shake them up and remind them, okay, you know, Paul is writing to a context. 0.69

00:47:38.040 He's writing to subjects of a monarchy.

00:47:41.260 But in God's incredible providence and grace, we're not subjects in a monarchy.

00:47:45.820 We are citizens of a democratic republic.

00:47:48.660 And our highest civil magistrate is not a human by design, but rather a document.

00:47:53.840 and it's not a living document that changes, you know, as different people are appointed to the

00:47:59.160 Supreme Court and find some kind of new interpretation. No, it's set. And so ultimately

00:48:05.180 when a Christian resists, practices civil disobedience towards a president or a governor

00:48:10.900 or whatever it may be, if that governor or president is not in line with the Constitution,

00:48:16.640 then ultimately what the Christian is doing is submitting to the higher civil magistrate,

00:48:20.380 namely the Constitution, by rebelling against someone who is a rebellious civil magistrate,

00:48:26.720 lesser civil magistrate, namely a president or a governor or a congress member.

00:48:31.740 And so it's just so since we're going to say we've got to know the scripture.

00:48:36.300 We also need we also need to know the civil realm. 0.93

00:48:38.620 I think Christians have been so turned off by politics. 0.80

00:48:42.880 And how often have you heard, you know, keep the politics out of the pulpit, keep the poll.

00:48:46.640 And so it's like we don't think the Bible speaks to this.

00:48:49.280 And then we also just were bored with this. We don't like this. And so Christians, man, we've got such just we're sitting on a treasure trove of the scripture and all that it says, especially in the civil realm right now.

00:49:02.620 And man, if there was ever a time 2020, 2021, and it's like we're impotent, you know, it's like we're sitting on on on this mountain of resources.

00:49:13.680 And we think the scripture has nothing to say.

00:49:16.320 We think that Christ, you know, doesn't, he's not really head of the state and doesn't care to be head of the state and doesn't, you know, and I'm not speaking of a theocracy, but I'm just saying, like, I want America to be Christian, right?

00:49:27.480 And what I mean by that is not like Israel, Old Testament Israel, one-to-one ratio, but I, what are we doing in the Great Commission?

00:49:34.160 We're trying to make disciples, disciple the nations.

00:49:36.460 I want America to love Jesus.

00:49:38.880 And if people in America love Jesus, some of those people are going to run for political office.

00:49:42.760 And if they run forbidden, then we're going to have Christian, you know, legislators. 0.86

00:49:46.200 And so then what should they legislate? 0.93

00:49:48.360 Things that honor God's word, you know, and you can call that whatever you want to call it.

00:49:52.620 I don't think it's nationalism, but, you know, I'm a Christian and I'm a I'm a patriot.

00:49:57.340 And so I want that kind of nation.

00:49:59.660 So, yeah, I mean, it's so it's such a good point because, you know, if every square inch belongs to Christ, then every vocation belongs to Christ.

00:50:08.520 And we spend most of our lives doing that work, whatever that work is.

00:50:12.760 And it has dignity and value.

00:50:16.560 It benefits society.

00:50:17.780 People say today Christians are anti-intellectual, right?

00:50:21.820 But Christians started the first hospitals.

00:50:24.500 We started the first education institutions, and on and on we go.

00:50:28.920 And just to your point, if we're going to vote out Trump, just to use that example, according to what we've said, Biden should be impeached.

00:50:37.980 Now we know that he won't.

00:50:39.680 And that's a travesty.

00:50:41.500 It really is.

00:50:42.760 But we have to we have to be willing to stand up and we have to be willing to say as Christians, OK, what is Romans 13 actually said to our discussion here?

00:50:52.220 It's talking about obeying the law of the land and the law of the land is the Constitution, the Bill of Rights in America.

00:50:59.800 It's not what the president, whatever the president and his executive order floating out in the wind says.

00:51:06.400 It's just not. So we have to stand or some health mandate or whatever.

00:51:11.060 we have to stand up and know that we stand on the constitution and the bill of rights

00:51:16.080 and as a christian we're not we're not we're not saying that the i'm not saying by extension that

00:51:21.720 the bill of rights and the constitution are on par with the bible that would be heresy i'm saying

00:51:27.280 but but we have the law of the land and the law of the land is the constitution the bill of rights

00:51:31.920 and we so we stand on you know we stand on the word of god you know totally in every every area

00:51:39.000 in every phase. And so we, we understand then that from scripture, that when God says the rule

00:51:46.380 of the law is, and by the way, that defines our, it defines how the, how the constitution and the

00:51:53.860 bill of rights are supposed to even be, you know, exercised and executed in our country, which I

00:52:00.700 mean, that brings up a whole nother topic about. Well, it brings up that issue of the law being

00:52:05.840 used lawfully. Yeah. Yeah. You can have a right law, but not, not execute it, not legislate

00:52:11.460 lawfully. Go ahead. And they're not, and they're not just, just to, you know, wrap that up.

00:52:16.720 No, you're right. And I do want to say just as a disclaimer for anyone who's listening. So,

00:52:20.540 you know, the constitution being the highest, you know, the law of our land, the highest civil

00:52:24.020 magistrate. But I know, I know that Dave and I would both agree that, you know, you might be

00:52:29.860 thinking, well, what about Christians in China? You know, what about, what if the law of the land

00:52:33.280 is the, you know, um, one child policy or what if, uh, well then, then you, well, then you

00:52:39.080 supersede to the highest law of any land, which is the law of God. Um, and, and that's, that kind

00:52:45.240 of my point back to the Lord, Lordship of Christ, universal Lordship of Christ over all things that,

00:52:49.780 um, you know, the Bible, I do believe that it calls us to obey the law of the land, but even

00:52:54.380 then it's to submit to, you know, um, human, um, officials and lesser civil magistrates and all,

00:53:01.800 you know, rulers in the land. Um, but even then, um, only so, so far as, as, um, as they are not

00:53:11.020 forbidding us from doing something that God commands or, uh, or commanding us to do something

00:53:17.120 that God forbids, you know, cause the law of the land, you know, with Nebuchadnezzar and Shadrach

00:53:22.700 and Meshach and Abednego was to bow down that 90 foot tall idol statue to worship it when the

00:53:28.360 trumpet and the musical instruments begin to sound. Or in the case of Daniel, I mean, it was

00:53:33.200 an official decree. It was signed by the signet ring of, of, of, of the King and Daniel chapter

00:53:39.100 six. And, uh, but Daniel continued to pray three times a day with his windows open to heaven,

00:53:44.600 as was his custom. Um, because that law of the land was in contradiction to the highest law.

00:53:50.820 And so we're just, we're just saying, Dave and I saying that even that the irony is that even

00:53:55.400 And in our, the human law of our lands, the highest law is, it's not Joe Biden.

00:54:00.920 It's also not Trump.

00:54:01.880 You know, it's, it's, it's the constitution and we're, we're folding even on that.

00:54:06.680 So like at this point, our allegiance to Christ doesn't even require us.

00:54:11.320 I keep thinking of Hebrews 11, Hebrews 11, right?

00:54:13.740 You have not resisted yet to the point of shedding your blood, you know, like in America,

00:54:17.780 like it's, I mean, martyrdom in America is, is, is kind of, it's weak sauce right now.

00:54:24.280 Now, it seems to be ramping up, you know, and so I don't want to make light of it.

00:54:27.820 I think, you know, persecution may be coming.

00:54:30.440 But my point is right now, man, we've got it easy.

00:54:32.740 We still have something that we can appeal to in human courts and all these.

00:54:36.940 And I'm not saying we're going to win because things seem to be corrupt.

00:54:40.580 But I'm saying even at a human level, we still have, I think, I personally feel like outside of Scripture,

00:54:46.720 I think the Constitution of the United States of America is one of the best documents ever written.

00:54:50.880 And and and so we still have a beautiful nation in terms of its foundation, in terms of its roots.

00:54:57.240 And we have a wonderful law that is wonderful because it models the law of God.

00:55:02.960 And we still have all these avenues of appeal and all at that level.

00:55:07.020 And even if we are law of the land was like communist China or something like that, and the highest, you know, civil magistrate was some human official instead of a document that, you know, led according to his own will and fancy and whatever he wanted and was completely oppressing people and doing things completely contrary to God's law.

00:55:27.380 Even then we would resist lawfully because we would we would say, hey, this is contradicting the law of God.

00:55:35.260 And I always go back to Romans 13 and think, you know, like Paul, like what he's assuming in that text, because he says, would you have no fear of the one who rules over you?

00:55:44.580 You know, the one who bears a sword and does not bear it for nothing.

00:55:47.380 You know, it's a frightening thing.

00:55:49.420 Would you like to live your life fear free?

00:55:51.480 Have no fear of the one who rules over you?

00:55:53.560 Then do.

00:55:54.280 And notice he says, then do what is good.

00:55:57.280 And I think a lot of Christians these days are interpreting it as though Romans 13 said, then do what he says.

00:56:02.560 Right.

00:56:02.720 Would you have no fear of the one who rules over you?

00:56:04.460 Then do what he says.

00:56:05.260 That's not what the text says.

00:56:06.660 The text says, would you have no fear of the one who rules over you?

00:56:09.020 Then do what is good.

00:56:10.380 Okay, what does Paul mean when he says good?

00:56:13.440 Do that which is truly good, according to what standard?

00:56:16.620 God's.

00:56:17.860 And so Paul is assuming, and Paul, you know, coming from a context where in many cases, you know, the human officials and civil magistrates were contradicting the word of God.

00:56:28.080 But he's even saying in his context that if you follow, if you do that, which is good, then in many cases, it'll go well for you.

00:56:39.260 Because even pagans and even God-hating civil magistrates can't help but borrow from the Christian worldview because it's the only thing that works, you know.

00:56:49.760 And when Christians, you know, I mean, what are the values and the virtues of Christians?

00:56:54.280 Like we're hardworking.

00:56:55.380 We want to be honest and have integrity.

00:56:57.220 We want to love our neighbor as we love ourselves and count others as more significant than I said, you know, you know what I mean?

00:57:03.220 And so just so so even if you have an unregenerate pagan, God hating civil magistrate, even if that's the case, if you do what is good, not just what he thinks is good, the civil magistrate or what he says, but what God says is good.

00:57:17.340 But even in places like communist China, there are many times where things will go well for you.

00:57:24.480 And then there are other times, of course, where you will be persecuted and obedience to God will mean pain and suffering to yourself.

00:57:32.880 But even that is for your eternal good, your eternal benefit.

00:57:36.620 And so anyways, all that being said, any final thoughts on that?

00:57:40.460 And then I got one more question for you before we close.

00:57:42.240 Yeah, one last thought.

00:57:43.900 You know, you mentioned R.C. Sproul and he had that premise phrase, Coram Deo.

00:57:47.340 And that means, you know, before the face of God and maybe you're watching this and you're wondering, OK, what does this have to do with me?

00:57:53.040 How do I even face this in the midst of whatever?

00:57:56.280 You need to understand that all of your life is before the face of God.

00:57:59.420 He not only sees you, he knows you because of Christ.

00:58:02.940 He he comes after you. He seeks you.

00:58:05.380 If you're a Christian, he knows your thoughts. He knows the length of your days.

00:58:08.820 He knows everything about you from the top of your head to the bottom of your of your toes and everything in between yourselves, your DNA and everything.

00:58:17.340 That might be – that's like a pretty scary thought, but actually it's the most comforting thing because this is your sovereign God.

00:58:24.740 He's the one who by the Holy Spirit, he indwells you and he empowers you to this end.

00:58:29.940 You're not an animated Christian of God.

00:58:32.340 You're a friend of God, and this thought should steal your resolve that you are his and he is yours.

00:58:39.640 So no matter what that they do to you, no matter if they come for your house or your job or whatever or your social media and shut you down, good.

00:58:50.520 I still belong to God no matter what.

00:58:52.960 Like I said at the beginning, if they come and take away my laptop and my everything or my house or whatever, great.

00:59:01.960 Send me to prison, great.

00:59:03.700 They can't kill me. 1.00

00:59:05.020 They can kill me. 0.86

00:59:05.960 But guess where that takes me?

00:59:07.100 I go immediately into the presence of God because I belong to Christ.

00:59:11.080 And so let that thought actually, as we close, put a wrap on this conversation, let that thought actually encourage your heart right now and steal your resolve to stand up, to speak without being afraid and without being unashamed of Christ who has, you know, won the day, won your heart.

00:59:33.420 He's going to win the last day.

00:59:35.880 And, you know, Satan's a liar and Christ will triumph.

00:59:40.040 Amen.

00:59:40.840 Yeah, if God is for us, then who can be against us?

00:59:43.640 What can man, you know, after man who can kill you but then can do no more to you?

00:59:48.640 But, you know, do not fear man who after, you know, destroying the body can do nothing else, but rather fear God who has the power to destroy both the body but then also the soul and hell.

00:59:58.360 God is really the only person in the universe worthy of our fear.

01:00:03.580 and um and and that's you know again that that fear is a for the christian it's not a fear of

01:00:09.960 judgment i always say it like the the pagan should fear god um and and fear his judgment but

01:00:16.080 ironically that's one of the signs of somebody who is unregenerate is that they typically don't

01:00:20.880 they have there is no fear of god before their eyes romans chapter three and so um the non-christian

01:00:26.260 is the one who should in objective terms fear god's judgment uh the christian uh no longer has

01:00:31.960 a fear of judgment, for judgment has to do with punishment. We've been delivered from that. Christ

01:00:36.780 has set us free from that fear of death and fear of judgment. Hebrews speaks of, but we should

01:00:42.000 always, even in heaven for eternity, fear God. There's a difference in fearing God's judgment

01:00:46.820 versus fearing God himself. And so we have a reverence and awe for God as the creator in heaven

01:00:52.480 of earth. And unfortunately, we just, I think we have a lot of Christians who are living, all of

01:01:00.360 us and we all fall prey to this, including myself at times, but we often act as though man, we

01:01:07.120 attribute far more esteem and far more power and importance and significance to people than we

01:01:14.580 really should. And I think part of it is because people really can kill us in this life. Jesus says

01:01:19.180 that man can kill you, but after that can do no more. And I think part of this, we just value our

01:01:23.340 own lives too much, you know, and but Jesus said, if you're not willing to lose your life for my

01:01:28.280 sake, then you'll never really find it. And so I think getting rid of the idolatry of ourselves

01:01:33.700 and our own life, this life, here and now, and seeing Christ and His Lordship and the application

01:01:39.980 of Scripture to all things and fearing God more than fearing man, those are the kinds of things

01:01:45.780 that I think the church needs in this hour. So that said, that would be my answer to the question

01:01:52.380 I was about to ask, but let's hear your answer and maybe you'll echo that. But my last question

01:01:56.700 is just what do you think at a pastoral level, you know, for myself, I'm a local pastor. I've

01:02:01.700 got a lot of pastor friends. What's something that pastors can do for their congregations and

01:02:06.240 their preaching and their discipleship and shepherding ministry to help alleviate the

01:02:11.800 problem of biblical illiteracy? Yeah, there's six things I have. I'll just run through them. And then

01:02:17.460 if you want me to elaborate on any of those, I will. Okay. So good. So first thing, provide

01:02:23.220 opportunities for small groups centered on the word prayer and fellowship second uh provide

01:02:27.840 opportunities and a time for people to ask questions and encourage people in your local

01:02:31.880 church to ask questions third preach expository sermons where the point of the sermon is the point

01:02:36.840 of the text and point people responsibility from that text to jesus fourth encourage biblical

01:02:42.640 counseling and training your local church and get people that are you know interested in that

01:02:47.280 certified through the association of biblical counselors also known as acbc uh fifth encourage

01:02:53.280 personal daily bible reading provide classes on the importance of personal daily bible reading

01:02:58.420 study meditation memorizing uh scripture application provide classes and teaching on

01:03:04.600 the importance of doing life with one another and how to listen to a sermon

01:03:08.060 uh six and lastly encourage uh the reading of solid christian resources from the pulpit

01:03:13.720 And that one, I think, is so important because, you know, we just said that the pulpit should be central.

01:03:20.240 There's actually a chapter in my book where I make that case that we need to have the pulpit be central.

01:03:26.240 And so if that's the case, then the pastor from the pulpit commending resources is absolutely critical because it sets the tone for the whole church on what they value and so much more.

01:03:40.180 So there's a lot.

01:03:42.000 Yeah, no, that's great.

01:03:43.720 And if we had more time, I would ask you to elaborate.

01:03:46.620 But I think just an overview of those six things, super helpful.

01:03:49.200 That's a great answer.

01:03:49.960 And maybe one of these days I'll have you back on to talk about, especially what you've mentioned a few times throughout our episode today, but just biblical counseling.

01:03:59.400 You know, there are many Christians, I think, who, well, yeah, I go to counseling for this, I go to counseling for that.

01:04:04.360 And I always, you know, who's your counselor?

01:04:06.720 And, oh, don't worry, pastor, it's a Christian counselor.

01:04:09.380 And I'm like, uh-oh.

01:04:10.100 So there's, sadly, there's a dynamic difference between a Christian counselor and a biblical

01:04:15.760 counselor.

01:04:16.460 It actually changes the dynamic of how you counsel.

01:04:20.560 And some Christian counselors could be great.

01:04:22.200 You know, they could be functioning as biblical counselors.

01:04:24.280 But sadly, there are many who are Christian counselors.

01:04:28.460 And all that actually means is that they themselves are a professing Christian who

01:04:32.600 counsels in the way that Freud or anybody other pagan would.

01:04:36.200 But, you know, so they're Christians giving pagan counsel, right?

01:04:40.420 You know, Christian counselor.

01:04:41.560 But a biblical counselor is especially if they've been certified, like you said, then you can count on them to be someone who is a Christian giving Christian counsel, not just a Christian counselor, but a Christian counselor giving Christian counsel, a.k.a. a biblical counselor.

01:04:56.700 So maybe we could talk about that sometime in the future.

01:04:58.940 But I'll give you the final word, anything you want to leave our listeners with?

01:05:02.520 yeah i just want to say you know you might be listening and wondering what do i do with all

01:05:07.060 this and in the book i'm just trying to i'm trying to get you to the light and the god who's given us

01:05:11.480 a book and in the 66 books that constitute the word of god and i'm my encouragement is is is as

01:05:18.040 you read the book if you get it uh open your bible there's over 110 bible verses in 110 page book so

01:05:25.420 there's, you know, there you go. For every page, there's at least one scripture or more. Read it

01:05:32.220 along, open your Bible. That's, you know, in Acts 17, 11, the Berean, Paul's commended the Bereans

01:05:37.760 for, you know, studying the scripture, searching to see if what he said was from the Bible. So I'm

01:05:42.920 doing the same thing. And Thessalonians, you know, the Thessalonians were commended by Paul for

01:05:48.300 how they received the word. So that's what I would just commend to you. Be a Berean, get in the word,

01:05:53.120 study it um read it delight in it uh get past the idea that it it's it's legalism um and and i and

01:06:01.400 i told this on i said this on the for the church for the gospel podcast i said if that's what

01:06:05.580 legalism is sign me up uh because that's that's the if that's legalism then i'm a legalist and

01:06:11.880 i'm happy to wear that label but it's not so delight in the bible get in the word love god

01:06:18.720 love his church love his people and uh then you then you'll find that you'll you know going to

01:06:24.620 be growing in godly character um you'll have a desire to engage in evangelism and discipleship

01:06:30.960 um to be useful to your neighbor uh to be useful in your city in your community in in a world and

01:06:38.060 and we need you we need to stand up and be counted um and and you know i need you i need you to to

01:06:45.180 And I need you and you need me and our local churches.

01:06:48.460 And 50 times in the New Testament, we're told that.

01:06:51.500 So, man, we just, we got to get on it and get with it.

01:06:55.660 You know, stand up and be counted.

01:06:58.040 Amen.

01:06:58.860 Dave, thanks so much for coming on the show.

01:07:01.040 It was a pleasure being with you.

01:07:02.040 Thank you so much, Joel, for the invitation.

01:07:04.340 I appreciate it.

01:07:05.900 As a special thank you for your gift of any amount,

01:07:08.300 we'll be happy to send you a free digital book from our store.

01:07:11.280 To access this offer, visit

01:07:13.460 We highly recommend

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01:07:19.460 Saved? If you or someone you know

01:07:21.440 has wrestled with doubts about the love of God

01:07:23.600 this would be a great resource

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The NXR Podcast - June 23, 2021

THEOLOGY APPLIED - The Problem Of Biblical Illiteracy

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