The NXR Podcast - THEOLOGY APPLIED - The Problem Of Biblical Illiteracy

00:00:00 Hi, this is Pastor Joel with Right Response Ministries.

00:00:03 This is another episode of Theology Applied.

00:00:05 Today, we're going to be discussing the problem of biblical illiteracy,

00:00:09 especially here in churches in America,

00:00:12 and what you, as a Christian, can do about it.

00:00:15 I'm pleased to have as a special guest, Dave Jenkins.

00:00:18 And now, you're listening to Theology Applied.

00:00:22 Applying God's Word to every aspect of life.

00:00:25 This is Theology Applied.

00:00:30 All right, Dave Jenkins, could you go ahead and just take a moment and introduce yourself

00:00:36 to our listeners? Tell them about you, about your ministry, and whatever else you'd like to share.

00:00:41 Yeah, well, the first and most important thing is I was saved by the grace of God

00:00:45 at the age of five. I was sitting on my mother's lap, and I just, we got in like a little rear-end

00:00:51 bumper, nothing major, nobody got hurt, but I just recognized at that moment that I needed,

00:00:56 i needed jesus now i didn't have all the you know theological categories at the age of five

00:01:01 i really didn't have that start studying theology until i was 13 and uh at 13 i just started

00:01:08 devouring i just had an overwhelming hunger for theology and the bible and just started consuming

00:01:13 it uh that took me uh you know all to go on mission trips and all sorts of things starting

00:01:21 servants of grace writing doing youth ministry and uh starting servants of grace at the age of 19

00:01:27 fresh out of high school um i'd had an email list and was writing uh for people then in high school

00:01:35 and uh that was growing and and then when i started online it it kind of just took off this

00:01:40 is 2000 so before blogs and before podcasts were a thing um here i was going at it and uh then in

00:01:48 2001, I got asked to start speaking on an internet radio station and started preaching expository

00:01:53 verse-by-verse sermons through there, 21 at the time, and kept doing that, and God kept blessing

00:02:00 it. That ministry, I married my beautiful wife at the age of 26. She's Sarah. Outside of my

00:02:08 salvation, she is the best gift. I could spend this whole interview talking about her. She is

00:02:13 an immense blessing. I wouldn't be able to do what I do. So you asked me before we recorded,

00:02:17 what do I do? The simple answer to that $50 million question that I get asked a lot is I am

00:02:23 an author, a writer, editor, podcaster, speaker. You know, Service of Grace, I work at Service of

00:02:31 Grace. I'm full time with them. I'm the executive director. We have a magazine, Theology for Life.

00:02:37 We have many podcasts. The one your listeners might know is Eclipse of Grace. I've had a number

00:02:44 of guys Michael Horton and many others Doreen Virtue Elisa Childers on and on it goes but I've

00:02:52 been been blessed to do that now for let's see almost in August it'll be 21 years so thank God's

00:03:00 grace I'm just going to keep going on and keep my hand to the plow and you know until they shut me

00:03:05 down and tell me I can't do it anymore well then I'll go do something else I'll go you know wherever

00:03:11 they put me to say, can I do that? I'll go out on the street. And I've done street work too. So

00:03:16 I'm not afraid to go on the street and preach Jesus. And they put me in prison. Great. Another

00:03:21 opportunity to preach the gospel and raise up future leaders for God's glory. So.

00:03:27 Amen. That's great. Yeah, we need bold men who are willing to fight for the truth of the gospel.

00:03:34 We also need bold men willing to fight for the truth of the gospel and not necessarily in

00:03:39 vocational ministry, but in other fields, other vocations like starting a solid social media and

00:03:47 tech platform that Christians can use that won't get shut down or kicked off of Amazon and Apple

00:03:53 and everything else. So good luck with that. If there's any nerdy Christian guy listening to this

00:03:58 podcast, set your heart to that task and get it done for us. We need somebody to come through. 1.00

00:04:04 So all that being said, let's go ahead and just hop right into our topic. Thank you for coming

00:04:08 on the show. Thanks for taking some time to introduce yourself. Again, the topic is biblical

00:04:12 illiteracy, and I've got your book that you sent me. The name of the book is The Word Explored,

00:04:19 and you have as a subtitle, The Problem of Biblical Illiteracy and What to Do About It.

00:04:25 So my first question would be this. Could you just take a moment and define biblical illiteracy,

00:04:30 or you could do the opposite and define biblical literacy, and then talk about the problem that you

00:04:35 see in the church in America today and why you felt the need to write a book like this?

00:04:41 Yeah, yeah. Great question. Well, first, first some stats, right? How large is this problem?

00:04:47 We're talking about biblical illiteracy. Now, George Barna has dedicated his life to the

00:04:54 studying and researching the trends in the church. His research is eye-opening about

00:05:01 American Christianity. He says fewer than half of all adults can name the four gospels.

00:05:05 Many Christians cannot even identify two or three of the disciples.

00:05:10 60% of Americans cannot name five of the Ten Commandments.

00:05:14 Several further surveys believe 82% believe that God helps those who help themselves.

00:05:19 81% among born-again Christians believe that the Bible teaches the primary purpose in life is to take care of one's family.

00:05:28 12% of adults believe that Joan of Arc was in the Bible.

00:05:31 Wow.

00:05:32 50% of graduating seniors, high school seniors, believe that Sodom and Gomorrah were husband and wife.

00:05:39 So we got problems on creation, salvation, the Bible, marriage.

00:05:44 I mean, it goes on and on, right?

00:05:47 Biblical, defining our terms, biblical illiteracy has to do with not knowing even the most basic facts about the Bible.

00:05:57 Not knowing every detail.

00:05:58 We're not talking about knowing every detail, every jot and tittle about the Bible.

00:06:04 Biblical literacy has to do with knowing the basics of the Bible, such as key facts, ideas, and even stories.

00:06:12 So that's pretty important.

00:06:14 The other part of this question, where do we get this problem?

00:06:18 I think that as I've thought about this quite a bit, how do we get here?

00:06:25 I think the reason it goes back to the seeker-sensitive movement that started in the 70s to the 90s, it's continuing to go on today.

00:06:33 That was a good movement, and I say a good movement because it had a good emphasis in that it wanted to reach lost people.

00:06:39 Luke 19.10 says that Jesus came to seek and save the lost.

00:06:43 That's a good thing.

00:06:44 So we should be preaching the gospel to the lost.

00:06:48 Unfortunately, it had many ramifications, and it also had devastating consequences.

00:06:53 And much of the pragmatism of our day can be traced back to that.

00:06:57 But, you know, the problem became that so many people in that seeker-sensitive movement, they were getting saved in churches with this approach to ministry, but they weren't being discipled.

00:07:10 And so people left the church because they didn't know what they believed and why it mattered.

00:07:15 And so, you know, people left the church.

00:07:17 Then the emerging church happened in the 90s and in response to the seeker-sensitive movement.

00:07:24 That conversation, it started as discipleship, but it quickly imploded because guys like Brian McLaren and many others, Brian McLaren specifically said, let's put a five-year moratorium on the conversation about homosexuality.

00:07:41 Of course, he took Steve Chalk's view, and then Steve Chalk is a British pastor, and he popularized Steve Chalk's view about cosmic child – penal substitutionary atonement is cosmic child abuse.

00:07:58 So this problem with this emerging church movement was that it was a conversation that quickly became divorced from God's word as they had denied essential doctrines that define and give shape to biblical orthodoxy.

00:08:13 So you might wonder, why do I bring up those two examples?

00:08:16 Well, I bring them up because of what they show.

00:08:19 A desire to reach people in evangelism and to disciple each other.

00:08:23 Those are two biblical ideas that are absolutely critical to the mission of the church.

00:08:28 Well, the problem is, is that the seeker-sensitive movement focused on evangelism apart from discipleship, and the emerging church divorced itself from biblical Christianity.

00:08:36 So as we draw this together about biblical literacy, what we see is that far too often in the church, we swing from one theological trend to another rather than grounding our lives and our ministries in God's Word.

00:08:50 And God's Word is absolutely the fountain for the Christian life.

00:08:54 God uses his word in the life of the Christian, you know, to teach them the truth because God, the Holy Spirit, indwells the Christian and empowers them to make disciples who make disciples from the word.

00:09:06 You asked one other question about the book.

00:09:10 Maybe I could just say a little bit about the approach of the book.

00:09:13 Yeah.

00:09:15 So there's really three things that God loves and that he loves his word, he loves his church, and he loves his people.

00:09:22 You know, we know that Jesus bled and died for, you know, the people of God, those who can repent and believe in Christ.

00:09:31 And the church is the only, there's a hashtag on Twitter, you know, the church is essential.

00:09:37 The church is the only absolutely essential institution because it's the only institution that Jesus bled and died for and rose for.

00:09:44 That's Ephesians 5.

00:09:46 you know and god delights over his word um all 66 books that constitute the the word of god

00:09:53 and so these three things what they do is if we understand that catech these three things that

00:09:58 god loves then what we come to understand is that we we don't need to have a checklist approach to

00:10:05 uh spiritual growth and and to reading the bible it takes us well past the objection of that daily

00:10:12 bible reading is legalism right um and it shows us that um god delights in these things and we

00:10:20 should delight in them because as christians we're you know indwelt by the spirit and god

00:10:24 we'll talk about this here in a minute but you know that these are this god takes his word into

00:10:29 our lives and he he's seeking to teach us and to carry it further into our lives so that you know

00:10:34 we'll be um we'll be growing character godly character and then we'll be useful servants of

00:10:40 Christ, you know, for his glory. So, yeah, that's great. Thank you. Great answer. You're right. I

00:10:47 like what you said that, you know, the pendulum, it just, we overcompensate, we go from one,

00:10:52 you know, and then over swing to the other. And so I like how you, you know, kind of used as a

00:10:57 description, as an example of that, a case study, the, you know, the seeker sensitive church, and

00:11:02 then swinging over, overcompensating to the emergent church. And, you know, we give way to

00:11:08 all these things, programs, pragmatism, strategies, you know, schemes, plots, all these kinds of

00:11:15 things. Because I think part of it is because we don't actually believe not just in the inerrancy

00:11:21 of God's word, the authority of God's word, but really we don't believe in the sufficiency of

00:11:25 God's word. We don't think it's enough. We don't think that a faithful expository preaching of the

00:11:30 word of God will actually do what God says it'll do. We don't believe that if we're faithful to

00:11:36 to send out God's word that, that we don't trust his promise when he says it will not return

00:11:42 void. And so, and so we try to do things in our own strength and our own devices real quick about

00:11:49 the seeker sensitive movement. I'm just curious, who would you say is kind of for lack of a better

00:11:54 phrase, the head of the snake? I always think of Robert Shuler is somebody who comes to mind,

00:11:59 but you said it started kind of in the seventies. Who do you, who are some of the people that you

00:12:04 would attribute to as the the founders of the fathers of the secret sensitive movement yeah i

00:12:09 think of bill hybels uh yeah one example i wasn't alive at that time so um you know i was born in

00:12:18 the in the very first part of in 81 and so i wasn't alive in the 70s but i i think of bill

00:12:24 hybels and you know willow creek and those kind of things and it's interesting as we even bring

00:12:29 that up i mean even they did this whole discipleship study in their church and what they

00:12:35 concluded was uh yeah the seeker sensitive movement was essentially a failure by their own

00:12:40 admission and they hadn't discipled the people in their church you know and and that's you know 0.91

00:12:45 that's we have huge problems i know you've talked about you know deconversion and and de-churched

00:12:51 in this and and this is this goes right to those to the heart of those you know kind of issues you

00:12:57 know where if you're not going to disciple people with the word you know and and trust the spirit

00:13:04 like you were saying to do what the spirit does then well you're you're always going to be going

00:13:10 after some attractional ministry some pragmatic approach uh to kind of compensate you're always

00:13:16 going to try to have some sort of light show or or whatever it is to you know have attract people

00:13:22 and you know that's always the wrong thing and the second half in fact chapters five and six

00:13:29 i'm arguing i'm i'm telling i'm encouraging pastors even to ground their ministries follow

00:13:34 the example of calvin you know he he left geneva he came back and he preached that same text do

00:13:40 that you know pastor do that ground your ministry and biblical counselor do that same thing if you're

00:13:47 a writer do that same thing if you're a podcast do that same thing whatever it is that you do

00:13:52 ground your ministry, ground your life, ground it in scripture, trust the scripture.

00:13:57 Amen. Another thing that I couldn't help but think as you were just talking about the problem of

00:14:03 biblical literacy and how we maybe got off the rails with, you know, the secret sensitive

00:14:07 movement, the emergent church. I would argue that some of that even, you know, some of the roots of

00:14:11 that could be tracked back all the way back to the second great awakening. And I put great awakening

00:14:17 in terms of the second in quotation marks, because, um, I don't really think that it

00:14:21 was, uh, genuine, it didn't have the marks of a genuine revival.

00:14:25 Like, um, like the first great awakening, it was no, um, George Whitefield.

00:14:29 It was, you know, there was the, that it just, that wasn't the case.

00:14:32 And, um, and that's where I think you start to see like a lot of things, like that's

00:14:36 where, you know, the modern, uh, concept of an altar call came from.

00:14:39 They called it the anxious, anxious bench, you know, that they would put on the front

00:14:42 row and I'm preaching to you now.

00:14:45 And it was this big emphasis on rhetoric and and pathos and passions and style, you know, and even that we could track back even further to Rome and the Catholic Church where there was, you know, the word, the pulpit is off to the side.

00:15:00 The center is the table, the Lord's Supper, which is paramount.

00:15:05 But we would say that it's the preaching of the word that that takes the center of the stage.

00:15:10 And maybe you can confirm this.

00:15:13 I think it was Martin Lloyd-Jones who took the pulpit in his church and nailed it to the stage in the center so that it couldn't be moved, so that, you know, there was always going to be front and center the word of God.

00:15:28 And Rome, you know, Catholic priests were being trained, you know, in a big part of their training was their hand motions and physical gestures, right?

00:15:38 This massive emphasis on robes and tassels and show and the way that the building was decorated.

00:15:45 And even, you know, even the phrase that we have hocus pocus, you know, like this kind of wizardry, witchcraft, you know, spell kind of thing, hocus pocus, that actually comes from Latin, a word that I'm not even going to attempt to pronounce,

00:16:00 but a phrase that the priest with the Roman Catholic Church would say over the Lord's Supper

00:16:06 that was supposed to be the official blessing that would cause the elements to transubstantiation,

00:16:14 to turn into the literal body of Christ and the literal blood of Christ,

00:16:18 which we as Protestants would reject.

00:16:20 But there was this phrase that the priest would use.

00:16:22 And the people, that's where we get hocus pocus from.

00:16:25 The people viewed it as almost like they were going to be entertained.

00:16:29 It was a magic show. It wasn't about the word exposited because most of the people didn't even speak Latin.

00:16:35 You know, it wasn't even in their language. So it wasn't expositing the word so that people can get the sense.

00:16:41 I think of like Nehemiah, you know, and Ezra, you know, like that, you know, they preach the law of God so that the people would get the sense.

00:16:51 And you're doing it in a whole nother language that most of the common people don't even speak.

00:16:57 and you're emphasizing and putting more of your focus on hand gestures and and what color you

00:17:02 know tassels you have on your robe that day and and the people are walking out and talking about

00:17:06 hocus pocus they're not talking about christ and him crucified and so you know so we we have this

00:17:11 kind of this modern more recent um epidemic in in the american church today of biblical illiteracy

00:17:19 that you you kind of uh tracked back to the 70s but you know we could we could track it back in

00:17:24 america to the you know the second great awakening and then we could track it back globally um you

00:17:29 know even further than that and i would i would definitely um i would definitely point the finger

00:17:33 at roman catholicism for for much of that so without further ado let's go ahead and dive

00:17:39 into some of the content of your i just want to say i just want to say amen to that man that was

00:17:44 awesome anytime we point the finger at rome you know you got to get a protestant to say amen

00:17:49 Amen. No, I mean, amen to all you said. I mean, thanks. Thanks, Dave. I appreciate it. So so hopping into one of the chapters of your book that I thought was really interesting. I told you before we recorded, I haven't read the book in its entirety yet. But one of the things that caught my eye was memorizing and meditating on the word. And I think that's so important. I'm always encouraging my congregation and and the members of my previous congregation when I was a pastor in California for several years.

00:18:19 I always try to emphasize meditating on the word.

00:18:23 I think of Psalm one on your law.

00:18:25 I meditate day and night.

00:18:26 And previously the verse prior,

00:18:28 what David says is I delight in the law of God.

00:18:31 So it's not just this begrudging obligatory thing

00:18:34 that I'm meditating day and night.

00:18:36 I force myself to think about your word.

00:18:38 It's not because I love your word.

00:18:39 I love your law.

00:18:40 I'm thinking about it, meditating on it. 1.00

00:18:42 But what I'm always encouraging Christians to do

00:18:44 as a pastor is not just memorizing.

00:18:48 So I like how, you know, you've got to memorize.

00:18:50 It's got to be in your brain to meditate on it.

00:18:53 You can't think about something that's not in your mind to begin with.

00:18:56 So the tactic of the discipline of memorizing the word, committing it to memory, but then

00:19:01 to meditate on the word is to go a step further.

00:19:05 And I think there's a lot of Christians who, well, we're struggling just to get up in the

00:19:10 morning, you know, and read the word, but we need to read the word daily.

00:19:13 And then we need to commit to memory the word.

00:19:16 but then we need to go a step further like psalm 1 the blessed man who delights in the law of god

00:19:22 he meditates on the word and to meditate upon the word in my assessment a christian meditation if

00:19:27 there were such a thing and i would argue there is christian meditation is the opposite of eastern

00:19:32 or mantra meditation where we seek to empty the mind of all rational thought but christian

00:19:36 meditation fills the mind and feasts the mind even we could say on uh on on substance namely

00:19:43 the word of God. And so you're not just reading the word or memorizing the word, but you're

00:19:47 actually beginning to chew and digest and turn over and think about the word of God. And I can't

00:19:53 help but think you're thinking about the implications and applications of God's word.

00:19:58 And I noticed the very next chapter in your book was talking about applying the word. So I want to

00:20:02 give you a moment, just talk about memorizing and meditation and applying the word of God.

00:20:07 no amen to what you said i mean you could just uh take the show i'm just joking uh so i think of

00:20:17 like memorizing and meditating like an atm you go to the atm and you deposit money in the in the

00:20:23 account and then when you want to take it out you you know enter your pen and you take that out

00:20:27 scripture memory is exactly the same thing you got to put scripture in to get scripture out

00:20:32 you know jesus says in luke 6 45 that out of the abundance of the heart the mount speaks

00:20:37 And so you have to input the Scripture, and the Spirit takes the Word.

00:20:42 And so we're inputting Scripture into our minds so Scripture can come out.

00:20:45 I'm even reminded just talking about that off the top of my head here about what Charles Spurgeon said at John Bunyan.

00:20:52 If you cut him, he'll bleed, but lean, and that's what we're kind of talking about.

00:20:55 We're inputting Scripture so that when we're faced with a temptation, when we're faced with whatever, even a season of prosperity,

00:21:04 We should be quoting our scripture to ourselves, preaching the gospel to ourselves and those from the word, not just preaching the gospel, but preaching the gospel from the word.

00:21:15 Just I always have that very important thing because, you know, we can get into a false preaching the wrong gospel to ourselves and we don't have any hope.

00:21:23 And we know that the gospel is in the word.

00:21:26 So just kind of spelling that out.

00:21:28 But, you know, we even see, you know, Jesus memorizing scripture, you know, in Matthew 4, 1 through 11, you know.

00:21:34 in his encounter with Satan there in the wilderness, and he quoted it accurately.

00:21:39 You know, even Satan was misquoting scripture.

00:21:42 So as Christians, we ought to memorize scripture so that it's available for the Holy Spirit to use in our lives.

00:21:50 In the midst of prosperity, seasons of, you know, that things seem to be going well.

00:21:55 That's what I mean by prosperity.

00:21:57 And when seasons are hard, you know, or when you're facing temptation or a challenge.

00:22:03 One of the best reasons for memorizing the scripture is that it fuels biblical meditation, which you'd so beautifully just talked about.

00:22:10 Thank you. And when we memorize, you know, a verse of scripture, we can meditate on it any day, any time.

00:22:16 Psalm 119.97 says, oh, how I love you a lot. It's my meditation all the day.

00:22:21 So biblical meditation, it invites Christians into the world of God and his word.

00:22:29 That's where real refreshment and joy begins.

00:22:31 And the more we engage in biblical meditation, the more we'll see the word giving off its heat to us, illuminating its truth to us through the spirit, whose word provides insight and understanding, resulting in a passion, you know, for obedience to God by his grace.

00:22:46 So like you just said so well, biblical meditation isn't where we empty our minds or anything like that.

00:22:51 It's where we fill our minds with God's truth and where our hearts and minds are inflamed with a passion for God.

00:22:58 That's great.

00:22:59 Yeah, I love that.

00:23:00 So going so now kind of to the next step. So it's that we've got to read the word. We've got to memorize the word. We've got to meditate upon the word. And then we need to apply the word. And I think that kind of brings us back to the beginning of our conversation, you know, talking about where the church in America kind of got off the rails with, you know, the devices of man being emphasized over the clear prescription of God in his word.

00:23:28 You know, getting away from the regulative principle of worship, away from sticking to the script.

00:23:34 And I think part of that, you know, and then eventually what happens is it's almost like there's a pattern.

00:23:40 It's almost like an equation or a formula, a progression of denial of Scripture that it begins with, I think, you know, a lack of an unbelief in the sufficiency of Scripture.

00:23:53 Right. So, I mean, that's really what you have with the Seeker Friendly Movement and the Emergent Church. 0.99

00:23:57 the scripture is not sufficient, or at least that's what you have with the seeker friendly

00:24:01 movement. The scripture is not sufficient for what? For our main goal of seeking the lost.

00:24:06 The scripture can't do that. And so we've got to do something else. We've got to add something.

00:24:11 We've got to emphasize something over here and, and, and maybe take some of our focus away from

00:24:16 the word. And then, but then what happens is you first, and you may not even call it this, but,

00:24:21 but it is in practice. You can tell by your actions and how much emphasis you're giving

00:24:24 to programs and how much emphasis you're giving to style and these other things that are not

00:24:29 word-centric. In your actions, you can tell this person, this group, this ministry, this pastor

00:24:35 does not believe in the sufficiency of God's word. And then lo and behold, give him a few years,

00:24:42 maybe a decade, and all of a sudden he starts to deny the inerrancy of God's word. So it's like

00:24:47 it's, you know, it starts with a lack of belief in the sufficiency of the word. And then there's

00:24:52 this kind of this lack of belief in the inerrancy, the infallibility, the authority, the perfection,

00:24:57 the beauty of God's word. And so, so all that said, you know, we want to be Christians who

00:25:04 don't merely salute the inerrancy of scripture, but in our lives, in our actions, in our practice,

00:25:10 we, we exemplify our belief in not only the inerrancy, but also the sufficiency of scripture,

00:25:16 which gets to application? How do we, if we believe the word is not just true, but that it's

00:25:22 enough, that it's sufficient, we're going to be constantly looking for ways in every realm of

00:25:29 human society, in every area of our life to apply the word of God. And so could you speak to that

00:25:35 application for a moment? Yeah, well, I just want to say amen to that. And what you're saying is so

00:25:41 important because, you know, what is often misunderstood today about the sufficiency of

00:25:45 scripture is we think oh it's for some part of your of your life or some part of your ministry

00:25:50 no no no the sufficiency of scriptures is for every part of our life for every phase of our

00:25:56 life it's it's for you know our life and godliness and uh that's that means it's for every everything

00:26:03 in our in our lives you know and uh what you said is so good um but to the question you know

00:26:09 Application, and here's a dirty word in American evangelicalism, I use dirty like this in air quotes because it really shouldn't, but it's a matter of obedience to God.

00:26:22 You know, we need to understand that the Holy Spirit desires to carry forth the word you hear and study and memorize and meditate and apply.

00:26:31 and and just one other thing the one of the things with the approach of the book is not just to and

00:26:36 you hit it so well earlier is is not just how this isn't really so much of a how book there's tons of

00:26:43 those out there this is more of a why book why do i read why do i memorize why do i meditate why do

00:26:50 i study why do i apply why do i do the life so i'm getting at the motivations um so and i think

00:26:58 that's important when we're talking about application for the things that you said. But

00:27:04 in James 1, 22 through 25, do you mind if I read that? Yeah, go for it. Yeah. Okay. But be doers

00:27:10 of the word and not hearers only deceiving yourselves. For if anyone is a hearer of the

00:27:14 word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks intently at his natural face in a mirror. For he

00:27:21 looks at himself and goes away and at once forgets what he was like. But the one who looks into the

00:27:27 perfect law, the law of liberty and perseveres being no hearer who forgets, but a doer who acts,

00:27:32 he will be blessed in his doing. Now, we know that very basically that the Holy Spirit is at work

00:27:37 in the life of the Christian to help them see and to know Jesus. In fact, Jesus says this in

00:27:43 John 14, 26. He says, but the helper, the Holy Spirit, and the Father will send it by name.

00:27:48 He will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said.

00:27:52 In John 16, 7 through 8, Jesus says,

00:27:55 Nevertheless, I tell you the truth, it's to your advantage that I go away.

00:27:59 For if I do not go away, the helper will not come to you.

00:28:03 But if I go, I will send him to you.

00:28:04 And where he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness.

00:28:09 So according to our text, James 1, 22, we might know the truth powerfully and personally.

00:28:15 It can be plain as day as you might see yourself in the mirror as you're getting ready in the morning.

00:28:20 But James says, if the Word's not being driven down deep into the soil bed of your heart, we're like a man who looks in a mirror and then forgets immediately what we saw.

00:28:31 When we do that, we go away thinking, ah, I'm good.

00:28:34 I might even sing this song, It Is Well With My Soul.

00:28:37 But the truth is we've missed how the Word of God has eminent practical value for our lives.

00:28:43 You know, James is saying that believing the right things, it should lead to practice.

00:28:47 You know, faith should lead to actions.

00:28:49 Those who are generally wise are those who show it through evidence.

00:28:52 To those who know the right things and don't do them, it's sin, James 4.17 says.

00:28:59 So back to James 1.23-24, he develops this in a meaningful and a powerful way.

00:29:08 He's not saying, oh, just look at the word and then look away.

00:29:11 Keep looking at the word.

00:29:13 Let it show you your faults, that it shows you.

00:29:18 And James 1.24 says, for he looks at himself and goes away and at once forgets what he's like.

00:29:23 That doesn't make sense to us, but that's what James is saying.

00:29:27 He's saying when we look in the mirror of God's word, the Holy Spirit comes alongside.

00:29:31 It brings it to bear in our lives.

00:29:33 He brings conviction, and that should result in conviction and confession of sin.

00:29:40 And that's a good thing for us.

00:29:43 We're so distracted today.

00:29:44 You know, we have a 24-7 news cycle that's coming at us.

00:29:49 It's – I mentioned what Jesus says about, you know, out of the abundance, the heart, the mouth speaks.

00:29:56 We're being discipled.

00:29:57 We're inputting that kind of – we're being discipled by our culture, right?

00:30:03 They're telling us this is what it means to be an American citizen and so much more.

00:30:09 And they're discipling us about Carl F.H. Henry was a 20th century American theologian.

00:30:16 And he was absolutely brilliant.

00:30:18 He not only talked about what a biblical worldview is, but he called it a biblical life view.

00:30:22 So it's not only what shapes us, it's how we see the world.

00:30:26 And that's what the scripture is to do.

00:30:27 It's to ground our lives so that we have a biblical worldview so that then we can see the world, you know, through the lens of scripture.

00:30:36 You know, and that's what we need.

00:30:38 We need to input scripture into our minds and into our hearts.

00:30:43 That's what the spirit wants to do.

00:30:44 And you might be watching or listening to this and you wonder, well, I feel dry inside.

00:30:51 Well, the reason that you feel so dry inside and it seems like you're not making any progress is you got to get back to the word.

00:30:59 You got to open that word and you got to read the word and study the word and start at five to ten minutes a day.

00:31:05 That's what I'm, you know, talking about, you know, but back to the application aspect.

00:31:11 Sorry, I got a little off.

00:31:12 No, no, no, that's good.

00:31:13 What do you let, what do you, what do you say?

00:31:15 What do you tell, you know, a preacher?

00:31:17 Hey, go preach, you know, you know, he'll, he'll preach.

00:31:21 So I see that in YouTube, brother, you know, you know, meditating on the word, your heart is warmed and purified by the grace of God.

00:31:30 You know, it feels us like a car at a gas station, encouraging us into passionate action for the glory of God.

00:31:37 In Psalm 119.15, he says, I will meditate on your precepts and fix my eyes on your ways.

00:31:43 You know, King David says he discerned through biblical meditation the ways of God and how to be a doer of the word.

00:31:49 So as you meditate on the word, ask those questions of the biblical text, you know, because you believe the word.

00:31:55 And the more questions you ask and you answer about a verse, you're going to gain more understanding and at heart level understanding about how it applies to your life, the life of others.

00:32:05 And as you do this, you're going to see that the Bible is not just a – it's not just a book as if it was a book of fairy tales and myths, but it's got a gift to help you see the connection between the scriptures, our world, and the lives of others.

00:32:18 And then you'll start to see what John Stott wrote about in Between Two Worlds, that great book on preaching, what Augustine of Hippo talked about in The City of God, understanding that the kingdom of God is both here in the now and yet also in the future.

00:32:34 You know, and the kingdom is here now because of the finished and sufficient work of Christ, you know, and through local churches, God is building his kingdom through his people.

00:32:44 And yet in the kingdom is yet future where he will glorify the precious possession of his bride, the apple of his eye, you know, his people.

00:32:51 And then they'll be, you know, entirely clothed and like Jesus.

00:32:55 Amen. Yeah, I can't help but think when it comes to application of the word of God and the sufficiency of the word of God and meditating, you know,

00:33:04 you know, making the tree go down deep, right? I think that the blessed man, again, Psalm chapter

00:33:10 one, you know, blessed is the man who, you know, delights in the law of God and meditates on it

00:33:14 day and night. He's like a tree rooted by streams of water. And I love how it says it bears fruit

00:33:20 in season. Its leaves are always green, right? So it's kind of like an evergreen tree. So it's

00:33:24 never, it's never lifeless. It's never dying. It's never even threatened or close to death.

00:33:30 So it's always vibrant, um, verdant, um, healthy, alive, green, filled with life.

00:33:36 Uh, but then it says, you know, it's, it's, it's by streams of water, meaning that it's

00:33:40 not dependent, um, uh, on, on, uh, precipitation on, on the rainfall, right?

00:33:47 If it's not raining, there's a stream nearby and I can't help but think, you know, the

00:33:51 stream is the word of God.

00:33:52 And so the tree, the blessed man, he's like a tree.

00:33:55 and he's not just gleaning life, spiritual life from his leaves and branches that he's drinking

00:34:02 from the root. It's not just the water and the rain and then the weather that may be there and

00:34:09 then may not be there, but this stream that's constant, that's always present. And he's drinking

00:34:14 deep, deep down his roots. He's planted by the stream, by this water, and his leaves are always

00:34:21 He's green. So he's, he's not on dry. He's not on the verge of death. And yet, you know,

00:34:25 the text goes on and says, and he bears his, his fruit and season, meaning that even a spiritually

00:34:31 mature, healthy Christian, who's planted daily by streams of water in the word, uh, reading the

00:34:39 word, memorizing the word, meditating on the word and seeking to obey, be a doer of the word. I love

00:34:44 that you shared the text in James. He's applying the word. Um, even in his obedience, there are

00:34:51 seasons of fruitfulness. So a healthy tree doesn't bear fruit 365 days a year. And that doesn't mean

00:34:58 that, you know, when it's out of season that it's dead. No, it could still be vibrant and lively,

00:35:05 but even good trees, healthy trees bear fruit in season. And so, you know, so all that. So we want

00:35:12 to be healthy trees. We want to be the blessed man who's delighting in the law of God, meditating

00:35:16 on the law of God, applying the law of God, living it out. And I can't help but think at times that

00:35:21 some of it, I think, comes from this notion that I think it's appropriate to use this word. I hate

00:35:28 this notion. I really do hate it in the biblical sense. And I think by God's grace, hopefully it's

00:35:35 a righteous indignation, a righteous hatred. But Jesus is Lord of my heart. I hate that.

00:35:41 No, Jesus, he's just, King Jesus is just not content with the sovereign domain and boundaries of your precious little heart.

00:35:55 Jesus, he's Lord of all.

00:35:57 And I think part of the problem is we've somehow taken this massive collection of 66 books, you know, a couple thousand pages, depending what translation you have and size print.

00:36:07 But it's a large book, this Bible that we have, and we've relegated it.

00:36:12 We've quarantined the the the relevancy of Scripture to come on, brother and the church.

00:36:20 Right. So the Bible has a lot to say about your marriage and it's got a lot to say about your parenting.

00:36:25 So we're going to do conferences on marriage and parenting every every two weeks, it seems like, you know, and it's got a lot to say about your church, you know, and, you know, for all those guys who are in ministry and aspiring towards ministry and want to multiply.

00:36:37 churches planting churches and all that you know the bible's got a lot to say about that

00:36:41 but but that's it you know and so jesus is lord of my heart and he might even extend in his lordship

00:36:47 to my home and and and he's lord of the church because you know ephesians 5 like you quoted

00:36:52 earlier you know christ is uh the head of the church but i can't wait for someone to get in

00:36:56 there and say you know what christ is head of the church but according to other texts in ephesians

00:37:00 and colossians uh wouldn't you know it christ is actually lord of all he's actually head of all

00:37:05 that Christ actually, you know, we're fond of saying, you know, Christ, not Caesar is head of

00:37:11 the church. Well, actually Christ and not Caesar is also head of the state. According to Romans 13,

00:37:17 the state, the civil magistrate is God's deacon. He works for God and it falls under Christ lordship,

00:37:24 his domain, his jurisdiction. And so I think part of the reason why we don't apply the scripture

00:37:31 in every realm of life is because we actually, in our heart of hearts, we've been taught by

00:37:37 pastors and Christian leaders that the Bible wasn't written to every realm of life. It was

00:37:42 written to your heart, it was written to your home, and it was written to your church. But we

00:37:47 pretend as though the Bible has nothing to say about the civil realm or about the marketplace

00:37:52 or about vocation or about all these other, like I think of Francis Schaeffer, I like him,

00:37:57 his seven mountains. And we think that the Bible doesn't have anything to say about these things.

00:38:01 And I think the reason why is it's all tied intrinsically to Jesus' Lordship. And the last

00:38:07 thing I'll say is I remember R.C. Sproul telling a story one time in one of his teachings where he

00:38:11 said that he was meeting with an old friend. They had gone to seminary together. And this old

00:38:18 friend, he was so grieved. They had dinner together and were catching up. The guy was in town visiting.

00:38:22 And he said, you know, I don't believe in the inerrancy of scripture anymore.

00:38:27 I just got to come clean.

00:38:28 I got to tell you, R.C., I know that you're big on inerrancy and I know it's going to

00:38:30 disappoint you.

00:38:31 I don't believe in the inerrancy of scripture.

00:38:33 I don't believe that the Bible is the infallible authoritative word of God.

00:38:37 But don't worry, R.C., you'll be pleased to hear this.

00:38:40 I still believe that Jesus is the son of God.

00:38:43 Jesus is Lord.

00:38:44 There's one thing I'll never let go of.

00:38:45 Jesus is Lord.

00:38:46 And R.C., you know, without skipping a beat, his brilliant mind and his charming demeanor, he responded and said, well, can I ask you, friend, if Jesus is Lord, how is it that he exercises his lordship in your life?

00:39:02 What is the agency of his lordship?

00:39:05 And the answer is the Bible.

00:39:08 And so I think my point is when we limit the relevancy of scripture and we say scripture doesn't really speak to blank this area that what we're actually doing is we're relegating, we're confining, quarantine the lordship of Jesus because the scripture is the agency of Christ lordship.

00:39:27 That's the big issue.

00:39:29 So it's Christ lordship. 0.75

00:39:30 How far does it go? 0.88

00:39:31 Right.

00:39:31 Like Simba Mephasis standing, you know, on on pride, pride rock, you know.

00:39:35 And what about that dark shadow?

00:39:37 There is no dark, shadowy place.

00:39:39 When Christ is standing in the air, he's like, all of it.

00:39:42 It's all mine.

00:39:43 And what is the agency that you extend your dominion, that you speak and exercise your lordship over all these things?

00:39:51 My word.

00:39:52 My word claims it all, speaks to it all.

00:39:56 It's relevant to it all.

00:39:57 It applies to it all. 0.71

00:39:58 And oh, if we could get Christians to stop saying and more importantly, to stop believing Jesus is the Lord of my precious little heart. 0.90

00:40:06 No, Jesus is Lord of all.

00:40:08 And because he's Lord of all, his word speaks to all.

00:40:12 Would you agree with that?

00:40:14 No, brother, I agree.

00:40:15 And just kind of taking your point in a similar vein, we have a big problem today in the church because we're telling pastors and seminarians to care about only mostly about your witness.

00:40:32 And our witness is important.

00:40:33 but where does the bible start we've forgotten that like to your point it starts with our

00:40:40 character and then you know our witness our character and our witness are not you know i'm

00:40:45 not separating them they're they're held in tension in the bible and and just to the point

00:40:50 you have we have to have mature if we want mature disciples in our church we have to teach them

00:40:55 how to be get in the word to to feed on the word to to delight in the word and and uh then there'll

00:41:02 be i think every christian because they're indwelled by the spirit if they're born again

00:41:07 they desire to be useful to christ but we have to stop talking first about our witness and first

00:41:13 about our character and then we can help them to be useful because they'll be godly you know our

00:41:18 godliness in the bible it's the fuel for our usefulness in ministry and that's just another

00:41:24 example to your point about you know we have problems with the lordship of christ you know

00:41:30 And I resonate with you when like Abraham, you basically essentially quoted Abraham Kuyper.

00:41:36 I said, yeah, there's not one one square inch where God would say mine, mine, mine, mine, you know, and if I can go here just a minute for a lot for a minute to your point about the state.

00:41:49 You know, today we saw that Biden said that, you know, he he said that, oh, you know, the CDC came out and said that they could, you know, we could do, you know, if you're vaccinated or whatever.

00:42:03 And I don't care what you think about that.

00:42:05 OK, that's not the point.

00:42:06 But you don't have to wear a mask.

00:42:09 OK, well, let's let's let's back up here.

00:42:12 He says that's the rule.

00:42:14 But let's back up here.

00:42:15 How do you have – first off, the president doesn't have the right to make any rule, any law, period, under the Constitution.

00:42:25 You cited Romans 13.

00:42:27 The law – that's the law of the land.

00:42:29 That's what we have to obey.

00:42:30 They've never passed any law through the law of the land, through the Congress and the Senate.

00:42:36 So he has no basis on which he can make that statement as a private citizen.

00:42:42 You know, I'm not excusing, giving, saying he doesn't have the freedom of speech like I do.

00:42:47 But the problem is, is they think they have freedom of speech without accountability.

00:42:53 And that's what we're being told today is you just say whatever you want to say.

00:42:58 They can say whatever they want to say.

00:43:00 You know, the left and the socialists and the Marxists and all that.

00:43:04 Say whatever you want to say.

00:43:06 And when we say, oh, it's the most loving thing.

00:43:09 you're a matter of loving god if you wear your mask and you get vaccinated and it just how do

00:43:15 i say this delicately it does something to me it's those it does something it does something to me

00:43:22 it raises my it makes me want to you know get a get a brown bag and and you know uh you know

00:43:32 that's frustrating. Barf in the brow bank, you know, every time, you know, my wife, God bless

00:43:41 her, you know, she, she really, um, she, she has grown so much in her fear of God, which

00:43:47 ultimately that's, that's the antidote for the fear of man. You know, some, some people,

00:43:51 when you might be listening to this and saying, man, it's just so hard to take a stand because

00:43:55 I'm, I'm afraid of what will people think? What will people say? You know, and the fear of man,

00:44:00 The only antidote to the fear of man is to fear something, or in this case, someone even more.

00:44:08 So it's not to stop caring about what, because some people say, you know, they, you know, what our pagan culture, you know, self-help kind of culture would posit as the solution, the antidote to the fear of man is the fear of you, right?

00:44:20 that you would you would have a greater fear right a greater sense of of esteem and and care more

00:44:27 about what you think about you than what others think about you and so how do you get over the

00:44:32 opinions of others so that you're not a slave to people pleasing and the opinions of man well you

00:44:37 need to care more about what you know at the end of the day what really matters is what you think

00:44:41 of you well that doesn't work right because you are just not you're just not important enough and

00:44:47 you know that deep down inside, you know that you are not significant enough, wise enough, smart

00:44:53 enough, valuable enough to outweigh the opinions of, you know, 7.8 billion other people on the

00:44:59 planet. There's only one being in the universe that if you put them on the scale next to the

00:45:04 entire world population, he outweighs them all by a landslide. And that's the Lord. And so we get

00:45:10 rid of this, you know, fear of man by ultimately fearing God. And I think part of the reason why

00:45:14 we have Christians today and even pastors, sadly, bowing the knee to the fear of man is because they

00:45:19 don't fear God because they never preach the fear of God. They preach the love of God. But one of my

00:45:23 concerns is that the love of God has been lost on a generation that has not been taught the fear of

00:45:28 God. And so we need to fear God. And my wife, God bless her. She's grown in that immensely to where

00:45:34 she fears God more than man. And so she'll join me in what I was going to say, which is we'll step

00:45:39 into HEB, you know, we'll step into a restaurant or whatever. And we don't wear the mask, you know,

00:45:44 and we're coming from California. And so we're in Texas. So we feel like we're, you know,

00:45:47 we're, we're splashing in the shallow end, you know, after being in California, it's a lot easier

00:45:53 here. Our governor, Greg Abbott, God bless him. You know, he repealed, you know, rescinded mask

00:45:58 orders and things like that. But my point is, you know, we'll go into HEB and there'll be a couple

00:46:03 hundred people. And in those, you know, super sized HEBs that we have here in Texas, everything's

00:46:08 bigger in Texas, including the people, you know, and so, and so we'll go into being passed by a

00:46:13 couple of hundred people while we're grocery shopping. And we'll be the only people that

00:46:17 we see in the store without a mask, you know, and, uh, and it's, but it's to your point that,

00:46:22 you know, just Christians it's, it's back to that witness character thing that you mentioned.

00:46:26 I'm so glad you brought that up. It's like, well, I want to be a good witness. I want to be a good

00:46:30 witness. And yeah, but like witness for who witness for what, like, what's the message,

00:46:36 Right. Like when you say a good witness, the witness is not so much the person as it is the message that they're witnessing to.

00:46:45 What are you witnessing to? Not just who are you witnessing to in terms of who who are you trying to to to exemplify Christ to preach Christ to.

00:46:56 But what Christ, which Christ are you trying to preach?

00:47:00 Are you trying to exemplify? Are you trying to live out?

00:47:02 And so, you know, Christians, I always think, you know, I always say, like, we don't want to throw any unnecessary punches, but we also don't want to pull any punches either. 0.87

00:47:10 And so if a Christian says, hey, I'm not going to do this because, not because I'm being rebellious, but I don't want to do this because it's not lawful. 0.75

00:47:19 And this is, you know, it's not even a law, period. 0.96

00:47:22 And even if it was, it's not a lawful law. 0.77

00:47:24 And even within the law of the land and the civil magistrate, you know, you read Romans 13, and I always just kind of want to, like, you know, grab Christians by the collar and shake them up and remind them, okay, you know, Paul is writing to a context. 0.69

00:47:38 He's writing to subjects of a monarchy.

00:47:41 But in God's incredible providence and grace, we're not subjects in a monarchy.

00:47:45 We are citizens of a democratic republic.

00:47:48 And our highest civil magistrate is not a human by design, but rather a document.

00:47:53 and it's not a living document that changes, you know, as different people are appointed to the

00:47:59 Supreme Court and find some kind of new interpretation. No, it's set. And so ultimately

00:48:05 when a Christian resists, practices civil disobedience towards a president or a governor

00:48:10 or whatever it may be, if that governor or president is not in line with the Constitution,

00:48:16 then ultimately what the Christian is doing is submitting to the higher civil magistrate,

00:48:20 namely the Constitution, by rebelling against someone who is a rebellious civil magistrate,

00:48:26 lesser civil magistrate, namely a president or a governor or a congress member.

00:48:31 And so it's just so since we're going to say we've got to know the scripture.

00:48:36 We also need we also need to know the civil realm. 0.93

00:48:38 I think Christians have been so turned off by politics. 0.80

00:48:42 And how often have you heard, you know, keep the politics out of the pulpit, keep the poll.

00:48:46 And so it's like we don't think the Bible speaks to this.

00:48:49 And then we also just were bored with this. We don't like this. And so Christians, man, we've got such just we're sitting on a treasure trove of the scripture and all that it says, especially in the civil realm right now.

00:49:02 And man, if there was ever a time 2020, 2021, and it's like we're impotent, you know, it's like we're sitting on on on this mountain of resources.

00:49:13 And we think the scripture has nothing to say.

00:49:16 We think that Christ, you know, doesn't, he's not really head of the state and doesn't care to be head of the state and doesn't, you know, and I'm not speaking of a theocracy, but I'm just saying, like, I want America to be Christian, right?

00:49:27 And what I mean by that is not like Israel, Old Testament Israel, one-to-one ratio, but I, what are we doing in the Great Commission?

00:49:34 We're trying to make disciples, disciple the nations.

00:49:36 I want America to love Jesus.

00:49:38 And if people in America love Jesus, some of those people are going to run for political office.

00:49:42 And if they run forbidden, then we're going to have Christian, you know, legislators. 0.86

00:49:46 And so then what should they legislate? 0.93

00:49:48 Things that honor God's word, you know, and you can call that whatever you want to call it.

00:49:52 I don't think it's nationalism, but, you know, I'm a Christian and I'm a I'm a patriot.

00:49:57 And so I want that kind of nation.

00:49:59 So, yeah, I mean, it's so it's such a good point because, you know, if every square inch belongs to Christ, then every vocation belongs to Christ.

00:50:08 And we spend most of our lives doing that work, whatever that work is.

00:50:12 And it has dignity and value.

00:50:16 It benefits society.

00:50:17 People say today Christians are anti-intellectual, right?

00:50:21 But Christians started the first hospitals.

00:50:24 We started the first education institutions, and on and on we go.

00:50:28 And just to your point, if we're going to vote out Trump, just to use that example, according to what we've said, Biden should be impeached.

00:50:37 Now we know that he won't.

00:50:39 And that's a travesty.

00:50:41 It really is.

00:50:42 But we have to we have to be willing to stand up and we have to be willing to say as Christians, OK, what is Romans 13 actually said to our discussion here?

00:50:52 It's talking about obeying the law of the land and the law of the land is the Constitution, the Bill of Rights in America.

00:50:59 It's not what the president, whatever the president and his executive order floating out in the wind says.

00:51:06 It's just not. So we have to stand or some health mandate or whatever.

00:51:11 we have to stand up and know that we stand on the constitution and the bill of rights

00:51:16 and as a christian we're not we're not we're not saying that the i'm not saying by extension that

00:51:21 the bill of rights and the constitution are on par with the bible that would be heresy i'm saying

00:51:27 but but we have the law of the land and the law of the land is the constitution the bill of rights

00:51:31 and we so we stand on you know we stand on the word of god you know totally in every every area

00:51:39 in every phase. And so we, we understand then that from scripture, that when God says the rule

00:51:46 of the law is, and by the way, that defines our, it defines how the, how the constitution and the

00:51:53 bill of rights are supposed to even be, you know, exercised and executed in our country, which I

00:52:00 mean, that brings up a whole nother topic about. Well, it brings up that issue of the law being

00:52:05 used lawfully. Yeah. Yeah. You can have a right law, but not, not execute it, not legislate

00:52:11 lawfully. Go ahead. And they're not, and they're not just, just to, you know, wrap that up.

00:52:16 No, you're right. And I do want to say just as a disclaimer for anyone who's listening. So,

00:52:20 you know, the constitution being the highest, you know, the law of our land, the highest civil

00:52:24 magistrate. But I know, I know that Dave and I would both agree that, you know, you might be

00:52:29 thinking, well, what about Christians in China? You know, what about, what if the law of the land

00:52:33 is the, you know, um, one child policy or what if, uh, well then, then you, well, then you

00:52:39 supersede to the highest law of any land, which is the law of God. Um, and, and that's, that kind

00:52:45 of my point back to the Lord, Lordship of Christ, universal Lordship of Christ over all things that,

00:52:49 um, you know, the Bible, I do believe that it calls us to obey the law of the land, but even

00:52:54 then it's to submit to, you know, um, human, um, officials and lesser civil magistrates and all,

00:53:01 you know, rulers in the land. Um, but even then, um, only so, so far as, as, um, as they are not

00:53:11 forbidding us from doing something that God commands or, uh, or commanding us to do something

00:53:17 that God forbids, you know, cause the law of the land, you know, with Nebuchadnezzar and Shadrach

00:53:22 and Meshach and Abednego was to bow down that 90 foot tall idol statue to worship it when the

00:53:28 trumpet and the musical instruments begin to sound. Or in the case of Daniel, I mean, it was

00:53:33 an official decree. It was signed by the signet ring of, of, of, of the King and Daniel chapter

00:53:39 six. And, uh, but Daniel continued to pray three times a day with his windows open to heaven,

00:53:44 as was his custom. Um, because that law of the land was in contradiction to the highest law.

00:53:50 And so we're just, we're just saying, Dave and I saying that even that the irony is that even

00:53:55 And in our, the human law of our lands, the highest law is, it's not Joe Biden.

00:54:00 It's also not Trump.

00:54:01 You know, it's, it's, it's the constitution and we're, we're folding even on that.

00:54:06 So like at this point, our allegiance to Christ doesn't even require us.

00:54:11 I keep thinking of Hebrews 11, Hebrews 11, right?

00:54:13 You have not resisted yet to the point of shedding your blood, you know, like in America,

00:54:17 like it's, I mean, martyrdom in America is, is, is kind of, it's weak sauce right now.

00:54:24 Now, it seems to be ramping up, you know, and so I don't want to make light of it.

00:54:27 I think, you know, persecution may be coming.

00:54:30 But my point is right now, man, we've got it easy.

00:54:32 We still have something that we can appeal to in human courts and all these.

00:54:36 And I'm not saying we're going to win because things seem to be corrupt.

00:54:40 But I'm saying even at a human level, we still have, I think, I personally feel like outside of Scripture,

00:54:46 I think the Constitution of the United States of America is one of the best documents ever written.

00:54:50 And and and so we still have a beautiful nation in terms of its foundation, in terms of its roots.

00:54:57 And we have a wonderful law that is wonderful because it models the law of God.

00:55:02 And we still have all these avenues of appeal and all at that level.

00:55:07 And even if we are law of the land was like communist China or something like that, and the highest, you know, civil magistrate was some human official instead of a document that, you know, led according to his own will and fancy and whatever he wanted and was completely oppressing people and doing things completely contrary to God's law.

00:55:27 Even then we would resist lawfully because we would we would say, hey, this is contradicting the law of God.

00:55:35 And I always go back to Romans 13 and think, you know, like Paul, like what he's assuming in that text, because he says, would you have no fear of the one who rules over you?

00:55:44 You know, the one who bears a sword and does not bear it for nothing.

00:55:47 You know, it's a frightening thing.

00:55:49 Would you like to live your life fear free?

00:55:51 Have no fear of the one who rules over you?

00:55:53 Then do.

00:55:54 And notice he says, then do what is good.

00:55:57 And I think a lot of Christians these days are interpreting it as though Romans 13 said, then do what he says.

00:56:02 Right.

00:56:02 Would you have no fear of the one who rules over you?

00:56:04 Then do what he says.

00:56:05 That's not what the text says.

00:56:06 The text says, would you have no fear of the one who rules over you?

00:56:09 Then do what is good.

00:56:10 Okay, what does Paul mean when he says good?

00:56:13 Do that which is truly good, according to what standard?

00:56:16 God's.

00:56:17 And so Paul is assuming, and Paul, you know, coming from a context where in many cases, you know, the human officials and civil magistrates were contradicting the word of God.

00:56:28 But he's even saying in his context that if you follow, if you do that, which is good, then in many cases, it'll go well for you.

00:56:39 Because even pagans and even God-hating civil magistrates can't help but borrow from the Christian worldview because it's the only thing that works, you know.

00:56:49 And when Christians, you know, I mean, what are the values and the virtues of Christians?

00:56:54 Like we're hardworking.

00:56:55 We want to be honest and have integrity.

00:56:57 We want to love our neighbor as we love ourselves and count others as more significant than I said, you know, you know what I mean?

00:57:03 And so just so so even if you have an unregenerate pagan, God hating civil magistrate, even if that's the case, if you do what is good, not just what he thinks is good, the civil magistrate or what he says, but what God says is good.

00:57:17 But even in places like communist China, there are many times where things will go well for you.

00:57:24 And then there are other times, of course, where you will be persecuted and obedience to God will mean pain and suffering to yourself.

00:57:32 But even that is for your eternal good, your eternal benefit.

00:57:36 And so anyways, all that being said, any final thoughts on that?

00:57:40 And then I got one more question for you before we close.

00:57:42 Yeah, one last thought.

00:57:43 You know, you mentioned R.C. Sproul and he had that premise phrase, Coram Deo.

00:57:47 And that means, you know, before the face of God and maybe you're watching this and you're wondering, OK, what does this have to do with me?

00:57:53 How do I even face this in the midst of whatever?

00:57:56 You need to understand that all of your life is before the face of God.

00:57:59 He not only sees you, he knows you because of Christ.

00:58:02 He he comes after you. He seeks you.

00:58:05 If you're a Christian, he knows your thoughts. He knows the length of your days.

00:58:08 He knows everything about you from the top of your head to the bottom of your of your toes and everything in between yourselves, your DNA and everything.

00:58:17 That might be – that's like a pretty scary thought, but actually it's the most comforting thing because this is your sovereign God.

00:58:24 He's the one who by the Holy Spirit, he indwells you and he empowers you to this end.

00:58:29 You're not an animated Christian of God.

00:58:32 You're a friend of God, and this thought should steal your resolve that you are his and he is yours.

00:58:39 So no matter what that they do to you, no matter if they come for your house or your job or whatever or your social media and shut you down, good.

00:58:50 I still belong to God no matter what.

00:58:52 Like I said at the beginning, if they come and take away my laptop and my everything or my house or whatever, great.

00:59:01 Send me to prison, great.

00:59:03 They can't kill me. 1.00

00:59:05 They can kill me. 0.86

00:59:05 But guess where that takes me?

00:59:07 I go immediately into the presence of God because I belong to Christ.

00:59:11 And so let that thought actually, as we close, put a wrap on this conversation, let that thought actually encourage your heart right now and steal your resolve to stand up, to speak without being afraid and without being unashamed of Christ who has, you know, won the day, won your heart.

00:59:33 He's going to win the last day.

00:59:35 And, you know, Satan's a liar and Christ will triumph.

00:59:40 Amen.

00:59:40 Yeah, if God is for us, then who can be against us?

00:59:43 What can man, you know, after man who can kill you but then can do no more to you?

00:59:48 But, you know, do not fear man who after, you know, destroying the body can do nothing else, but rather fear God who has the power to destroy both the body but then also the soul and hell.

00:59:58 God is really the only person in the universe worthy of our fear.

01:00:03 and um and and that's you know again that that fear is a for the christian it's not a fear of

01:00:09 judgment i always say it like the the pagan should fear god um and and fear his judgment but

01:00:16 ironically that's one of the signs of somebody who is unregenerate is that they typically don't

01:00:20 they have there is no fear of god before their eyes romans chapter three and so um the non-christian

01:00:26 is the one who should in objective terms fear god's judgment uh the christian uh no longer has

01:00:31 a fear of judgment, for judgment has to do with punishment. We've been delivered from that. Christ

01:00:36 has set us free from that fear of death and fear of judgment. Hebrews speaks of, but we should

01:00:42 always, even in heaven for eternity, fear God. There's a difference in fearing God's judgment

01:00:46 versus fearing God himself. And so we have a reverence and awe for God as the creator in heaven

01:00:52 of earth. And unfortunately, we just, I think we have a lot of Christians who are living, all of

01:01:00 us and we all fall prey to this, including myself at times, but we often act as though man, we

01:01:07 attribute far more esteem and far more power and importance and significance to people than we

01:01:14 really should. And I think part of it is because people really can kill us in this life. Jesus says

01:01:19 that man can kill you, but after that can do no more. And I think part of this, we just value our

01:01:23 own lives too much, you know, and but Jesus said, if you're not willing to lose your life for my

01:01:28 sake, then you'll never really find it. And so I think getting rid of the idolatry of ourselves

01:01:33 and our own life, this life, here and now, and seeing Christ and His Lordship and the application

01:01:39 of Scripture to all things and fearing God more than fearing man, those are the kinds of things

01:01:45 that I think the church needs in this hour. So that said, that would be my answer to the question

01:01:52 I was about to ask, but let's hear your answer and maybe you'll echo that. But my last question

01:01:56 is just what do you think at a pastoral level, you know, for myself, I'm a local pastor. I've

01:02:01 got a lot of pastor friends. What's something that pastors can do for their congregations and

01:02:06 their preaching and their discipleship and shepherding ministry to help alleviate the

01:02:11 problem of biblical illiteracy? Yeah, there's six things I have. I'll just run through them. And then

01:02:17 if you want me to elaborate on any of those, I will. Okay. So good. So first thing, provide

01:02:23 opportunities for small groups centered on the word prayer and fellowship second uh provide

01:02:27 opportunities and a time for people to ask questions and encourage people in your local

01:02:31 church to ask questions third preach expository sermons where the point of the sermon is the point

01:02:36 of the text and point people responsibility from that text to jesus fourth encourage biblical

01:02:42 counseling and training your local church and get people that are you know interested in that

01:02:47 certified through the association of biblical counselors also known as acbc uh fifth encourage

01:02:53 personal daily bible reading provide classes on the importance of personal daily bible reading

01:02:58 study meditation memorizing uh scripture application provide classes and teaching on

01:03:04 the importance of doing life with one another and how to listen to a sermon

01:03:08 uh six and lastly encourage uh the reading of solid christian resources from the pulpit

01:03:13 And that one, I think, is so important because, you know, we just said that the pulpit should be central.

01:03:20 There's actually a chapter in my book where I make that case that we need to have the pulpit be central.

01:03:26 And so if that's the case, then the pastor from the pulpit commending resources is absolutely critical because it sets the tone for the whole church on what they value and so much more.

01:03:40 So there's a lot.

01:03:42 Yeah, no, that's great.

01:03:43 And if we had more time, I would ask you to elaborate.

01:03:46 But I think just an overview of those six things, super helpful.

01:03:49 That's a great answer.

01:03:49 And maybe one of these days I'll have you back on to talk about, especially what you've mentioned a few times throughout our episode today, but just biblical counseling.

01:03:59 You know, there are many Christians, I think, who, well, yeah, I go to counseling for this, I go to counseling for that.

01:04:04 And I always, you know, who's your counselor?

01:04:06 And, oh, don't worry, pastor, it's a Christian counselor.

01:04:09 And I'm like, uh-oh.

01:04:10 So there's, sadly, there's a dynamic difference between a Christian counselor and a biblical

01:04:15 counselor.

01:04:16 It actually changes the dynamic of how you counsel.

01:04:20 And some Christian counselors could be great.

01:04:22 You know, they could be functioning as biblical counselors.

01:04:24 But sadly, there are many who are Christian counselors.

01:04:28 And all that actually means is that they themselves are a professing Christian who

01:04:32 counsels in the way that Freud or anybody other pagan would.

01:04:36 But, you know, so they're Christians giving pagan counsel, right?

01:04:40 You know, Christian counselor.

01:04:41 But a biblical counselor is especially if they've been certified, like you said, then you can count on them to be someone who is a Christian giving Christian counsel, not just a Christian counselor, but a Christian counselor giving Christian counsel, a.k.a. a biblical counselor.

01:04:56 So maybe we could talk about that sometime in the future.

01:04:58 But I'll give you the final word, anything you want to leave our listeners with?

01:05:02 yeah i just want to say you know you might be listening and wondering what do i do with all

01:05:07 this and in the book i'm just trying to i'm trying to get you to the light and the god who's given us

01:05:11 a book and in the 66 books that constitute the word of god and i'm my encouragement is is is as

01:05:18 you read the book if you get it uh open your bible there's over 110 bible verses in 110 page book so

01:05:25 there's, you know, there you go. For every page, there's at least one scripture or more. Read it

01:05:32 along, open your Bible. That's, you know, in Acts 17, 11, the Berean, Paul's commended the Bereans

01:05:37 for, you know, studying the scripture, searching to see if what he said was from the Bible. So I'm

01:05:42 doing the same thing. And Thessalonians, you know, the Thessalonians were commended by Paul for

01:05:48 how they received the word. So that's what I would just commend to you. Be a Berean, get in the word,

01:05:53 study it um read it delight in it uh get past the idea that it it's it's legalism um and and i and

01:06:01 i told this on i said this on the for the church for the gospel podcast i said if that's what

01:06:05 legalism is sign me up uh because that's that's the if that's legalism then i'm a legalist and

01:06:11 i'm happy to wear that label but it's not so delight in the bible get in the word love god

01:06:18 love his church love his people and uh then you then you'll find that you'll you know going to

01:06:24 be growing in godly character um you'll have a desire to engage in evangelism and discipleship

01:06:30 um to be useful to your neighbor uh to be useful in your city in your community in in a world and

01:06:38 and we need you we need to stand up and be counted um and and you know i need you i need you to to

01:06:45 And I need you and you need me and our local churches.

01:06:48 And 50 times in the New Testament, we're told that.

01:06:51 So, man, we just, we got to get on it and get with it.

01:06:55 You know, stand up and be counted.

01:06:58 Amen.

01:06:58 Dave, thanks so much for coming on the show.

01:07:01 It was a pleasure being with you.

01:07:02 Thank you so much, Joel, for the invitation.

01:07:04 I appreciate it.

01:07:05 As a special thank you for your gift of any amount,

01:07:08 we'll be happy to send you a free digital book from our store.

01:07:11 To access this offer, visit

01:07:13 We highly recommend

01:07:17 Pastor Joel's book, Am I Truly

01:07:19 Saved? If you or someone you know

01:07:21 has wrestled with doubts about the love of God

01:07:23 this would be a great resource

01:07:25 As a reminder, to get this offer

01:07:27 go to

01:07:27 And thank you

01:07:31 for your generous support

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The NXR Podcast - June 23, 2021

THEOLOGY APPLIED - The Problem Of Biblical Illiteracy

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