The NXR Podcast - THEOLOGY APPLIED - The Rise Of Pagan Gods & The New Caesar ｜ Mark Driscoll, Elon Musk, & Donald J. Trump w Andrew Isker & C.Jay Engel

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00:00:40.700 Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Theology Applied. I am your host, Pastor Joel

00:00:45.340 Webin with Right Response Ministries. In this particular episode, I was privileged to welcome

00:00:50.400 on the show for the very first time, C.J. Engel and Andrew Isker. I'm going to allow them to

00:00:55.940 introduce themselves, and I'll also introduce the topic for us, but I'll give you a little bit of a

00:01:00.800 teaser right here. We talk about Christian nationalism. We talk about Christendom. We talk

00:01:06.060 about Baptists having a hard time with it. We talk about our G3 brothers and some of the 1.00

00:01:10.040 disagreements we have with them. We talk about Mark Driscoll and Caesarism and what's going to 0.99

00:01:14.940 happen if our republic falls because we've lost our minds and the insanity and some of the pietism, 1.00

00:01:20.220 even from Christians that doesn't want to really push back. It's an action-packed episode. We talk 1.00

00:01:26.180 about the rise of the old gods, paganism, demonic activity, Satanism. Really interesting episode.

00:01:32.740 Really, really interesting. Maybe one of my favorites. So, if you're looking for something

00:01:37.180 that's interesting, that's edgy, but that holds to the scripture and seeks to be faithful and

00:01:42.960 helpful for everyday Christians like you, then stay tuned. You're listening to Theology Applied.

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00:04:11.520 Applying God's word to every aspect of life. This is Theology Applied.

00:04:20.680 Hi, welcome back to another episode of Theology Applied. I am your host,

00:04:23.900 Pastor Joel Webin with Right Response Ministries. And in this particular episode, I'm privileged to

00:04:28.680 welcome to the show two guests. I have both Andrew Isker and C.J. Engel. Is that correct?

00:04:36.060 That's correct.

00:04:36.920 All right. Welcome to the show. Can you guys take a moment and just introduce yourselves? What do

00:04:40.300 you do? How do you make money? What do you do for the kingdom of Jesus Christ? Who are you?

00:04:45.440 Go ahead, Andrew.

00:04:46.980 Okay. Well, I am Pastor Andrew Isker. I'm the pastor of 4th Street Evangelical Church in

00:04:53.140 waseka minnesota and i also write for gab news and um i'm the co-author with andrew torba of

00:05:02.280 christian nationalism uh and so that's that's what i do that's how people know me i i'm i'm on

00:05:08.960 twitter at at boniface option and on gab at the same title at boniface option that's that's me

00:05:14.820 um some people don't know that like they meet me in person like that that's you really uh so

00:05:19.520 that's me happens all the time at the grocery stores it's all the time i mean i can't get on

00:05:24.380 an airplane you know that i had corresponded with you on twitter multiple times and i didn't know

00:05:29.960 who it was i actually i think i i think i reached out to eric one time and asked like who is this

00:05:36.060 and he and eric con set me straight so very uh he's not he's not actually that great yeah very

00:05:43.900 very underwhelming i was like is this andrew torba and he's like no no no it's the lesser

00:05:49.360 andrew the minor one yep yeah i'm cj engel and um i i um have a business a physical location

00:06:00.940 business and manufacturing here in northern california that's how i provide an income for

00:06:06.900 my family. I have four kids and they're homeschooled. And on Thursdays, I record with

00:06:14.840 Andrew Isker, our Contra Moondum podcast. And I do lots of writing and stuff when I can.

00:06:21.340 That's my hobby, but I don't make any money on it. So that's what I do. It takes up all my time

00:06:26.780 is podcasting, writing, and working. That's great. Awesome. All right. So one of the things that

00:06:33.400 piqued my interest is i've gotten to know you guys uh we'll just we you know it's a small crew

00:06:39.460 of guys who who want to see jesus kingship actually worked out in every single realm of life

00:06:48.420 in practical meaningful ways we all say jesus is king and i think a few of us believe it um

00:06:55.120 you know so the few of us who do believe that in practical ways not just king in the 17th

00:07:01.420 dimension in the ethereal plane somewhere, but that he's actually King here and now in meaningful

00:07:07.240 ways, uh, ruling through his church. Um, yeah, we've kind of banded together. So I think I got

00:07:13.340 to know you guys in part through the Ogden, Utah boys, refuge church, Brian and Eric and Dan. Um,

00:07:20.000 but then also like, you know, we have mutual acquaintances with the AD Rubel, uh, AD Robles,

00:07:24.720 who's actually on the board with right response ministries. And so I know he's a friend of you

00:07:28.060 guys and mine and uh john harris and other guys william wolf and so i actually just got done

00:07:33.080 recording with william wolf and his episode will release before this one i recorded with him

00:07:37.400 in terms of recording time it'll be a week apart these episodes but i recorded with him

00:07:41.880 last night and uh and we were talking about you know the whole christian nationalism

00:07:46.880 thing and just and all the hullabaloo with uh baptist um in particular really really struggling

00:07:53.240 with the concept of a christian nation a christian government and you guys i think have had some

00:08:01.380 really good insights on that so we want to talk about caesarism but before we get there just i

00:08:07.840 don't know the the lay of the land with christian nationalists maybe particularly how it deals with

00:08:11.640 baptists and their hang-ups some of the stuff that we've seen recently with g3 you know guys that i

00:08:16.580 i love and that i respect i've been going back and forth with josh bice and scott

00:08:21.140 annual, and I always pronounce it incorrectly, but going back and forth between those guys,

00:08:28.680 and Baptists are really having a hard time right now. What do you guys think about that?

00:08:33.060 Well, I think the Baptists as a theological phenomenon in Western history, it needed sort of

00:08:42.460 a anti-establishmentarian approach in order to defend its own right to exist and its own

00:08:48.500 uh you know ecclesiastical efforts i think it needed um that that that that momentum you know

00:08:56.220 in history that was kind of the context of the baptist world um especially as it existed in

00:09:01.560 in england uh and in and uh new england in america um you know the baptists needed some of those

00:09:07.620 things to be loosened and so baptists their own heritage uh makes them cautious about uh rhetoric

00:09:14.700 like Christian nationalism, just because they came out of Christendom in a way that they needed

00:09:22.600 liberty. They needed some of these themes that we talk about today that have been completely

00:09:26.800 secularized and I think completely abused today. But that rhetoric was birthed within that

00:09:33.200 historical context. And so I think they're a little bit cautious about what that means for

00:09:39.920 them and all the progress that they have made in being able to function independent of national

00:09:47.280 church networks, especially with the involvement of the political sphere with the ecclesiastical

00:09:52.980 sphere. So I think that really describes what's going on there. And I think that when you look

00:09:58.360 at the development of history and the particularities of political systems and stuff like

00:10:04.220 that i don't think um i think that the world has completely changed and so what we mean by you know

00:10:10.480 a christian nation is not the same as like trying to re-establish elizabethan england or anything

00:10:16.680 like that and i think baptists are just coming to terms with what does that even mean what does that

00:10:21.200 phrase even mean how does it apply to us as baptists uh do we have a right to exist and i

00:10:26.040 think those kind of conversations are coming to light but they don't realize the extent to which

00:10:30.700 all of that rhetoric, all of that development in history has been completely subverted and

00:10:37.280 completely occupied and taken over by a rabidly anti-Christian. So like if, for instance, if you

00:10:42.520 read the 1689 confession and it talks about the fact that the king, you know, the chief magistrate

00:10:48.020 is a representative of God on earth, right? They have that rhetoric in there. So they didn't have

00:10:54.420 a secular liberalism in mind at all, even though they needed to use the rhetoric of freedom in

00:11:00.160 order to, you know, practice their right, what they consider to be their right as independent

00:11:06.680 congregations from the conformist, you know, regulations on ecclesiastical practices. So

00:11:13.840 the whole world has changed and people don't realize that those, that rhetoric that was

00:11:18.320 birthed in a Christian context has been completely severed from Christian history. And that's what

00:11:23.620 we're dealing with today. It's, you know, they said that's, that's, I don't know, that's my

00:11:27.180 explanation for why they're having a hard time with it. And I get it. It makes sense. That's

00:11:33.220 why they're having a hard time with it. But I don't think that evangelicals in America are very

00:11:37.120 good at understanding political history and just political theory in general. And that's fine in 1.00

00:11:43.900 some contexts. They don't need to be practitioners of political philosophy. But perhaps if they can

00:11:50.780 sit back and learn a little bit more about the development of this rhetoric and these phrases

00:11:54.860 and what's actually going on in the world today,

00:11:56.900 I think it would give them a broader perspective.

00:12:00.360 Yeah, really helpful. Andrew?

00:12:02.000 Yeah, I think along the same lines of CJ,

00:12:05.740 you look at this, so much of this theology,

00:12:10.280 particularly the political theology of Baptists,

00:12:12.200 and it is a particular political theology that they have,

00:12:15.480 it's born out of a particular time and a particular place,

00:12:18.780 a particular environment.

00:12:20.060 CJ brings up Elizabethan England and the time after that.

00:12:22.860 When the 1689 Baptist Confession was written, this is 100 years before the French Revolution.

00:12:32.940 It was inconceivable that in their minds to have a world that was not Christian in the mere Christendom sense.

00:12:43.360 They couldn't even begin to comprehend what that would look like.

00:12:46.760 They couldn't imagine what Soviet Russia would look like or Mao's China or any of the monstrosities of the 20th century or this totalitarian liberal democracy that we live under today.

00:13:00.480 That's not something they could even begin to comprehend in the world that they lived in.

00:13:05.720 So you have to take the development.

00:13:08.180 And this happens with Presbyterian reform people too.

00:13:12.520 I'm not just going to bash Baptists.

00:13:15.080 uh you have these guys um i don't know if i need to necessarily name name them here uh but these

00:13:21.560 guys like during covid who were experts on the theology of richard hooker who were like well you

00:13:26.740 should just get the um i know you're you know you might get censored on this you should get the

00:13:31.260 medical experiment uh because that's loving your neighbor and that's what richard hooker would want 0.97

00:13:36.700 you to do under his political theology and if you're not that's then you're just a bad libertarian

00:13:41.180 or something and and like it's just it's absurd to think that 17th century political theology

00:13:47.120 is a one-to-one thing that could be adapted to the the current era that's not even anywhere

00:13:53.020 close to the world that we live in and so they're having trouble adapting to that i i wrote uh last

00:13:57.920 week an article for gab news um you know just entitled christened um or chaos that and it was

00:14:04.040 about uh i i don't want to mispronounce his name either uh scott anniel what some of his tweets

00:14:08.780 it's i've been told it's it's annual like annual okay like daniel you know without the scott annual

00:14:15.640 yeah scott annual i don't want to i don't want to mispronounce his name but uh some of his tweets

00:14:20.580 you know i i they they just um it's hard and i i don't i don't think these guys are insincere in

00:14:27.300 in what they're doing even though i think it's it's some of them are kind of silly um like this

00:14:31.600 i think they really sincerely believe the things that they are are saying but it it ends up being

00:14:37.120 silly because it's such a misreading of the time that we live in thinking that if you have this

00:14:43.700 mere christendom that existed generally in in america you know in the 17th century 18th century 0.97

00:14:51.120 um if you have that then all of a sudden baptists are going to start getting burned at the stake

00:14:56.300 that's um that that's not what's what's what's going to happen um and and further like beyond

00:15:02.840 that um in my article i wrote that you know the kind of theology that they have works really well

00:15:09.240 for you know i think hopefully your viewers are familiar with aaron wren's three worlds of

00:15:14.680 evangelicalism right the neutral hostile kind of thing what are the three yeah positive so

00:15:19.320 positive neutral and negative um and so yeah positive world is where the the culture thinks

00:15:26.220 that's generally a positive thing if you're an evangelical christian neutral is they they don't

00:15:31.180 care one way or the other and negative is they're hostile toward it so um so positive and neutral

00:15:36.480 world and especially i think neutral world like that kind of theology works really well because

00:15:41.120 um the theology no one's going to this theology yes yeah like that if it can work it fits it

00:15:48.240 doesn't um there isn't any problem with withholding to it right practically speaking from a practical

00:15:55.420 political standpoint we're not going to come into your lane you don't come into ours autonomous

00:15:59.420 local independent churches without exactly formal affiliations and the same thing the same concept

00:16:05.700 principle that we have in our polity is our same view in terms of our membership regenerate church

00:16:10.700 membership there's no such thing as a christian anything except for a regenerate individual

00:16:14.920 person individual churches individual christians right like that individual leave us libertarian

00:16:20.440 mentality yeah yeah exactly i was just going to say that it's i mean it's no it's it was also a

00:16:25.460 good time to like hold you know libertarian political philosophy it during a neutral world

00:16:30.600 because you could you could hold these ideas because right nobody is going to persecute you

00:16:35.840 if you think that you know that you shouldn't have income tax or or whatever or like uh or that the

00:16:42.300 government shouldn't build the roads right it's it's the same thing but today now in you're clearly

00:16:47.840 a negative world and uh this idea that um people who want who want to have a nation that respects

00:16:57.320 the christian religion that that understand the cultural christianity actually is a good thing

00:17:02.040 um because because that's some of the debate too like just right there is cultural christianity

00:17:08.280 good or bad um because possible i mean is it even is it even conceptually possible i mean

00:17:14.140 Because like a lot of Baptists would say that it's a contradiction in terms, right?

00:17:18.060 You can't have it.

00:17:18.940 It's only regenerative because it's the same. 0.98

00:17:20.520 I would not be one of those Baptists, but continue. 0.98

00:17:23.000 Yeah. 0.97

00:17:23.580 Yeah.

00:17:23.980 I think it's absolutely possible because it's been done.

00:17:27.260 But yeah, go ahead.

00:17:27.680 It's a question of, you know, are we talking about, because you see these guys where it's like Christian is only used as a noun in the New Testament.

00:17:35.420 It's like, well, thank you.

00:17:37.920 But like we're talking about the adjective, right?

00:17:40.380 So part of the reason it's only used as a noun in the New Testament goes back to what

00:17:45.880 you're saying, like being aware of the times, like the sons of Issachar, like you're talking

00:17:49.480 about first century, like one of the things, you know, Brian Silvey is a friend and I know

00:17:52.660 he's a friend of you guys as well.

00:17:53.840 And one of the things that he said that I thought was so helpful is just, we are not

00:17:57.360 the lesser sons of former sires.

00:17:59.400 Everybody's let's get back to the first century book of Acts church, you know, real Christianity.

00:18:04.180 And it's like, all right, but you read the New Testament and, and you read like Paul's

00:18:08.860 writing to the corinthians and and paul the apostle you know this is the approach that i have

00:18:13.280 as a baptist that a lot of baptists would not take this approach but when it comes to the assurance

00:18:16.620 of salvation and things like that like paul the apostle is talking about like you know do not be

00:18:21.140 united with a prostitute do you not know who he you know whose flesh is united with the prostitute

00:18:25.660 becomes one with her in body but he unites with the lord is one with him in spirit and like and 0.82

00:18:29.620 so he's talking about like you guys and or or um once again you should be teachers but you know

00:18:34.840 but I have to give you the basic fundamentals.

00:18:37.020 You know, you have to have milk again instead of solid meat.

00:18:39.460 But in all these things that he says, he says, you know, like, so you got to, you can't have

00:18:43.060 solid meat.

00:18:44.000 You're babies, right?

00:18:45.380 It's this backhanded compliment, babies in Christ, right? 1.00

00:18:48.860 Don't unite yourself with a prostitute. 1.00

00:18:50.540 Why? 1.00

00:18:50.780 Because you were bought with a price in Christ.

00:18:53.420 He throws out, the apostle Paul throws out the assurance of salvation like candy, where

00:18:57.940 a lot of Baptist pastors actually don't.

00:19:00.740 Um, they assume that, uh, that the person is unregenerate, that they need to re-contemplate,

00:19:06.740 rethink their salvation from the ground up.

00:19:08.760 Um, and so it's, it's very individualistic, atomistic, um, it's not corporate, it's not

00:19:14.360 covenantal.

00:19:15.100 Even the particular Baptist guys who say that they have covenant theology, which I think

00:19:18.780 I actually do by the grace of God.

00:19:20.300 And there's some things that I'm working through, but all that being said, a lot of the guys

00:19:23.500 who claim to be covenantal aren't really covenantal in their thinking.

00:19:26.520 and so all that being said um i i think the g3 guys i'll just say this and i'll put it back to

00:19:32.000 you but i think the g3 guys you know steel manning their argument or i can't really steel man their

00:19:37.500 argument because they haven't really made it uh an argument that you know it's mostly been like

00:19:41.260 like and that's that's part of the frustration with it is it's been silly phrase questions that

00:19:45.580 they know we don't we don't hold to like who's going to be the protestant pope you know like um

00:19:49.920 so that that's not making it so i can't call it a silly argument because they're not even making

00:19:52.920 an argument they're asking a question like and which is kind of to be fair it's kind of like

00:19:56.860 asking like um you know uh how often are you beating your wife right it's like you know like

00:20:02.140 i mean it's really it's really disingenuous and and even i think deceitful a little bit and so

00:20:06.420 anyway so i can't say that the um i can't steel man their arguments because they don't have one

00:20:11.080 uh or that they have and they in in their own defense they've said like arguments are coming

00:20:15.140 soon definitions are coming soon so they really have not presented an argument um but what i will

00:20:20.480 do because they're brothers i'll steal man their what i perceive to be as their motives as their

00:20:25.140 intentions and i think scott has expressed it a little bit better than josh in some of his tweets

00:20:30.360 um that that he uh one of the things that really stood out to me that i profoundly disagree with

00:20:36.240 but that i appreciated because it just gave us a clue into what's going on there um he he talked

00:20:42.360 about how he sees chrissidom as the culprit chrissidom cultural christianity this kind of

00:20:48.660 So a Christian nation, Christian nationalism, Christendom, cultural Christianity, all different ways of describing a similar concept.

00:20:57.360 He sees that as the culprit for nominal Christianity, and he sees nominal Christianity producing nominal seminaries, nominal pastors, nominal preaching, and ultimately lending towards less, not more, in terms of using Christian back to using as a noun now, actual regenerate individuals.

00:21:15.940 and so so steel manning i can't steel man the arguments because they haven't given given us

00:21:20.480 one yet but steel manning the intentions the motives because they are brothers and so we're

00:21:24.400 thinking the best in that regard i think their intentions are we don't want people to go to hell

00:21:28.560 and and we legitimately think more people go to hell under chrysidom uh than they do uh downright

00:21:34.060 paganism um and and i don't even think they would say pagan well i think they i think they would

00:21:38.420 include that um and so all that being said the problem with that that is somewhat consistent

00:21:42.820 with the way a lot of baptists think but with that the argument that you can naturally make i mean

00:21:47.560 it's a real you know those two dots are real easy to connect um well then you know don't catechize

00:21:53.100 your kids right because you don't you know like so apply that from a national level to the family 0.59

00:21:57.700 level with with christian parenting right well you know kids that grow up in a home that's pagan

00:22:02.200 have a better chance of you know of hearing a pure gospel even if they only hear it one time

00:22:06.080 from an outside source uh that they haven't been you know they haven't been programmed to build up

00:22:11.280 this immunity towards the true gospel by hearing false nominal gospels you know and those kinds of

00:22:15.820 things and so therefore pagan kids raised in pagan environments pagan homes uh would stand a better

00:22:22.480 chance at conversion and all this is silly you know but but they don't believe that yeah of course

00:22:28.020 they don't believe that of course they don't believe it so just pan it out and apply it to

00:22:32.320 the world and instead of just a family so anyways i'm saying that to say that's i think still manning

00:22:37.720 their intentions giving the benefit of the doubt i think they want people to go to heaven right

00:22:41.160 And I don't think you can have a better intention than that.

00:22:43.100 Praise God.

00:22:43.800 Absolutely.

00:22:44.160 But I think they're profoundly wrong in regards to the means that get us there.

00:22:48.640 Okay.

00:22:49.520 Back to you guys.

00:22:50.200 What do you think about that?

00:22:51.180 You think I'm crazy or am I onto something?

00:22:54.920 I think that's part of it for sure.

00:22:57.600 Just not the whole story.

00:22:59.320 Well, yeah.

00:23:00.040 No, I think that's probably a main part of it.

00:23:02.800 um they have this conception of um i think that they have this conception where um culture is

00:23:14.540 is something that doesn't really have an effect on the development of of people and so they they

00:23:20.440 kind of think of this is very enlightenment uh source thinking where people can uh they're

00:23:25.400 developed by how they study and what they think about certain propositions very rationalistically

00:23:29.540 They don't realize that God often uses cultural institutions, even art and aesthetics, and the things that shape our sentiments and demeanor and instincts.

00:23:40.520 All of those things, I don't want to say means of grace in like a sacramental way, but those are means that God uses to shape people's minds and direct their attention to heaven.

00:23:50.760 So I don't think that there's – I think it's a very enlightenment idea that you can take an individual, and if only he has no cultural distractions, if he just looks at the pure word of God and exegetes those things for himself and comes to those conclusions on his own, I don't think that is actually how Christianity spreads.

00:24:12.580 I think it actually does spread through the shaping of sentiment, through the shaping of instincts, your demeanor, the way that your own mind interprets the things around you.

00:24:22.300 I think those are much more formative things.

00:24:25.060 So, for instance, like in the 20th century, obviously, Christianity as a culture phenomenon has completely fallen off the map.

00:24:33.160 And I think there's a lot more nominal Christianity than there is right now than there has been in a very long time. 0.95

00:24:39.080 That's a great point. 1.00

00:24:39.960 Yes.

00:24:40.540 That's a great point.

00:24:41.220 I think that nominal Christians are actually much more obviously around us.

00:24:47.540 The people that kind of go to these mega church – I live in California.

00:24:51.820 This is like mega church central, right?

00:24:54.040 Everybody goes there and they have these cheap phrases from history that actually have no meaning to them.

00:25:02.240 Like we're saved by faith, not by works.

00:25:04.400 They have these like –

00:25:05.120 This world is not my home.

00:25:06.400 Yeah, I cannot –

00:25:08.220 Not of this world, the bumper sticker thing.

00:25:10.580 yeah exactly you know and it's like they're the nominal christians the nominal christianity like

00:25:16.980 when you take away cultural christian when you take away culture as influenced by christian

00:25:21.940 metaphysics when you when you don't when you close off the ceiling to the sacred and you have this

00:25:28.280 like this materialistic liberal secularistic evolutionary um world you get so much more

00:25:35.760 nominal Christianity than ever before. Right. And I think that, I think that is what these people

00:25:41.540 are completely missing. Uh, another thing, and I know, I know you, uh, you know, you guys might

00:25:45.620 have a little different disagreement on me for this, but the idea that like, um, that, that we

00:25:51.120 could only focus on like heaven and there's no cultural transformation that can happen, um, by

00:25:58.420 believing in, um, a God who created this world for a specific reason. He didn't create this world

00:26:04.700 and the development of history is completely meaningless

00:26:08.100 and all that counts is just getting into heaven one day.

00:26:11.180 There really is.

00:26:12.380 Why would we disagree with you on that?

00:26:14.460 I feel like you would believe that less than us.

00:26:17.260 I'm post-millennial, so I don't think this,

00:26:19.940 I won't even sing Amazing Grace.

00:26:21.540 We use the Cantus Christi,

00:26:22.960 we've changed one of the stanzas

00:26:24.920 where we won't sing the earth will dissolve like snow,

00:26:27.240 the sun forbear to shy.

00:26:28.240 It's going to be this world, glorified Appalachian mountains.

00:26:31.560 Like I, like, I'm with you.

00:26:33.620 This is going to culminate in my point that there are two kingdoms at play here.

00:26:39.880 There is our responsibilities within the created order to take care of our family and our kin and the people that God has given around us, that we have responsibility toward the health and welfare of those things in material, temporal, civil terms that don't really have to do with getting into heaven.

00:26:58.980 I think those are two different realms, and we have obligations and responsibilities based on the fact that we're creatures of God, and these obligations precede the fall.

00:27:09.360 They precede the Great Commission even, right?

00:27:11.460 This is where the two kingdoms comes in.

00:27:12.960 They precede even the Great Commission, and so our responsibilities to build a world around us that reflects the heavenly city I think is part of our responsibility.

00:27:23.380 But I don't think that the critics of Christian nationalism can think in those terms at all.

00:27:28.280 I mean, they have sort of their own version of one kingdom theology where the only thing that matters is heaven and we're pilgrims because nothing here matters.

00:27:39.680 The only thing that matters is eternity, and I don't think that's true.

00:27:43.900 I think there are temporal kingdom obligations and duties that we have.

00:27:48.320 and then all the one kingdom guys that i'm a fan of though are not you know and none of us are

00:27:54.100 technically one kingdom but the emphasis isn't on uh being so heavenly bound that we're no earthly

00:27:58.640 good if anything the emphasis is on this is the kingdom but it's here but the critics are coming

00:28:04.480 to earth that christ is going to return in the sky we're going to meet him as the accompany

00:28:08.580 party to go somewhere else where he had no to usher him back into this world that's a blood 0.64

00:28:14.000 bot world so i you know the one kingdom kind of guys that i'm with which we would still hold the 0.68

00:28:18.140 two kingdoms light and dark rather than common and sacred but you know those kind of guys that

00:28:22.360 i'm linked up with um actually put i think a bigger emphasis on our earthly duty than even

00:28:27.860 the classical two kingdom guys like like steven wolf but i but i i was responding to the critics

00:28:32.520 though the people that don't have we don't have any obligations here you know right those no you're

00:28:37.180 absolutely right so that's a really good point and i actually haven't considered that and that's

00:28:41.180 really helpful for me because i've been thinking you know two kingdom is part of the problem but

00:28:44.460 that's i was in san diego i passed in san diego so i was just south of westminster escondido

00:28:48.820 where they were i'm pretty sure like you know they say you know that bonson died you know of like

00:28:54.280 there were some natural causes but i think some people at westminster escondido might have cut

00:28:59.280 his brake lines out or something you know something i think they might have had a hand

00:29:01.920 but uh but we're talking about here first this is cutting edge cutting edge journalism right here

00:29:07.080 But, I mean, we're talking about Van Druden, the gold standard for, like, you know, nothing will transfer to the kingdom to come, you know, except for the physical body being resurrected because we have to at least encompass that to avoid being, you know, outright heretics.

00:29:22.540 And so, you know, whether it be Michael Horton or Van Druden or, you know, these kinds of guys, you know, and Frame, I think, did a decent job, you know, combating them, you know, with his Escondido theology thing back in the day that he got a lot of flack from.

00:29:32.880 that's been so much because i was in san diego that so when i always think who's the problem

00:29:37.300 who's the problem i always think two kingdom is the problem and there's radical 2k they're

00:29:41.220 definitely the problem and there's classic 2k and they're they're kind of the problem

00:29:44.840 and steven wolf but my point is steven wolf's book and you cj and just the conversation we're

00:29:49.100 having right here and when i finished reading steven wolf's book i was like okay i still

00:29:52.680 disagree with them i still disagree with the the classic 2k uh thing but i i know it's it's steeped

00:29:57.420 in the reform tradition calvin and these guys so it's legitimate it's orthodox um you know i still

00:30:02.820 disagree with them, but I realized, Oh man, these guys are on my team. You know, these guys are

00:30:06.520 absolutely my team. Now I'm, I'm presuppositional, you know, whereas like Wolf is more of a Thomist.

00:30:13.620 And so like, he's going to argue from nature. And I always want to say, Hey, that's a great

00:30:16.680 argument from nature and a great argument from reason. But God also wrote a book and we're

00:30:20.080 allowed to use the book, you know? So that's like, that's where I'm at, you know, and that puts me,

00:30:24.300 you know, more in a Vantillian framework. But my point is to say, I always think of,

00:30:28.320 I give the two kingdom guys, I think maybe more flack. I'm kind of repenting here as I'm listening

00:30:32.800 to you because i'm thinking well i know it really is the radical 2k guys and the 1k guys but not 0.86

00:30:40.420 the 1k guys like joe boot you know or or myself or whatever well one two gays uh yeah two gays

00:30:47.080 2k guys who is just it's all heaven and and no significance to the earthly life at all

00:30:53.120 that's what you're saying i draw a very sharp very sharp distinction between escondido

00:30:58.800 you know radical modern i would call it modernist 2k compared to like calvinist

00:31:04.780 you know like continental european two kingdoms theology a lot of the modernist stuff came out of

00:31:10.280 the puritan conformist debates in england um so a lot of the continental um thinkers did not have

00:31:17.680 any you know they did not have a modernist 2k theology at all so i draw extremely sharp line

00:31:22.320 there i wouldn't even call the critics that we just i said they were kind of 1 2k they're even

00:31:26.720 hard to call one two k because like they don't have a theology of earth right at all you know

00:31:32.220 like it's just and the other thing too about like like your position is you think that there is

00:31:38.760 meaning in history because you're a post-millennial whereas they think like this whole thing doesn't

00:31:43.960 doesn't even matter they're almost gnostic like the material has no relevance to them you know

00:31:48.860 right i was gonna say it i was gonna say it i did not mean uh hop into the no hop into the

00:31:54.700 is card because we we've been going back and forth it's really good but i'm sure you got

00:31:57.460 some thoughts to talk about the gnostic thing you didn't yeah yeah yeah uh well that i think

00:32:03.200 that's what it is i mean that's that's some of it too like um you have like you you bring up the

00:32:09.500 yeah you know no earthly good a quote but that's that's that's so much of it um i mean some of that

00:32:15.260 revolves around eschatology uh it's it's unavoid a lot of people are like oh it's not eschatology

00:32:20.940 That's not what's driving it. For some people, it is. For some people, it is their eschatological views, but not everyone. There are a lot of like premillennial dispensationalist people who are nonetheless not consistent maybe with their eschatology and still really good.

00:32:39.380 Like they still really care about their country and, and seeing their nation evangelized and

00:32:43.940 things like that.

00:32:45.260 Um, so it's not totally, that's not the whole kit and caboodle.

00:32:48.120 Um, but, um, I think, you know, one of the things I wanted to say, going back to some

00:32:54.420 of the discussion between one K and two K and zero K, um, is, is that, um, a comment

00:33:02.160 that Joel made is that, um, Paul in his letter to the Ephesians, you know, tells parents to,

00:33:11.080 to raise their children in the nurture and admonition of the Lord and the words, you

00:33:15.380 know, and this happened, like, I say this all the time when I'm preaching, like, I don't 0.97

00:33:19.260 like using the original Greek or the original Hebrew all the time, because that's usually

00:33:23.480 an opportunity for the pastor to show how big a brain he has and things like that.

00:33:27.920 just to show off uh but sometimes so i try to do it sparingly unless it's like really really

00:33:32.680 really important that you understand that particular word and the deep meaning that it

00:33:36.380 has and the word that paul uses there in ephesians is padia right is padia and that is a word in

00:33:45.860 greek i mean doug wilson talks about this a lot that's a word in greek that has massive meaning

00:33:51.220 in classical antiquity right in terms of culture building right like padia means culture padia

00:33:57.780 means um this like fully orbed culture that surrounds and engulfs everything around you

00:34:03.620 that you're raised up in that cultural situation and so paul is commanding the ephesian christians

00:34:10.080 to raise up their children inside this christian culture right so paul is commanding the ephesians

00:34:16.880 christians to raise their children in a in something that's going to ensure that they

00:34:21.580 they don't ever become regenerate and go to hell that's so cruel why would paul do that 0.95

00:34:25.620 Yeah, I know. It raises them in cultural Christianity. Like, why would you do that? Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. But that's what it is. And so you extrapolate that from the family because the family is like the first building block of the nation.

00:34:38.860 And so you could you could apply from the family to the entire nation that that raising up your nation's children in the Pedia of the Lord is also a good thing that it's better for them to be influenced by Christian. 0.91

00:34:53.700 Like, I mean, just think about it, like in terms of just practical parenting, like I've got, I've got five little kids and, um, I, I don't let them watch much TV or YouTube or, or anything unless like I'm sitting there with them and have the remote. 0.99

00:35:10.080 um because the paedilla of this culture is is absolutely demonic and so i don't want that that

00:35:18.480 stuff influencing my children i don't want my children's being their minds and hearts and souls 0.86

00:35:23.520 being shaped by that paedilla i want them to be in a christian paedilla and and so like you just 0.84

00:35:30.880 think about that across the like nation like look at um i like to watch like really old movies um 0.63

00:35:36.420 you know that are 80 70 80 years old and you could see like the the stark difference and they

00:35:42.840 weren't all totally perfectly godly or anything you know 70 or 80 years ago but you could see the

00:35:48.500 stark difference in the culture uh 70 or 80 years ago and the cultural expressions in movies and

00:35:54.240 things like that and how christian it was or how much it was influenced by the gospel of jesus

00:35:58.740 christ and that that's a good thing like i would rather like like i've even had like we watch

00:36:03.280 looney tunes from the 1930s and they're mostly innocuous and silly and and and actually full of

00:36:09.260 a lot of classical um uh cultural stuff and and so anyway like that's way better than the like

00:36:16.080 you turn on netflix and see the cartoons that they have for little kids now like they're trying

00:36:19.620 to turn them into trans you know like that's like their goal so it's like um it's so obvious that

00:36:25.740 like christian culture is something that the apostle paul commands and that that christians 0.99

00:36:33.400 should be producing in their families and you can you can take that to the rest of the world that

00:36:37.360 make that makes sense to apply that from from the family to the whole world and and that's what was

00:36:43.180 done uh and the flip side of this too is like cj brings this up that there are a lot of nominal

00:36:49.600 christians today nominal churches like what happens like like even just going back to the

00:36:55.220 oh we want to be like the first century we want to be like the early church like do you actually

00:37:00.000 understand because like one of the big larps is like if we just larp is persecuted christians 0.86

00:37:04.960 that's then everything will be okay then we'll only have real christians in the church then 0.56

00:37:08.220 we'll ensure it's only regenerate people inside the church but it's like you read the new testament

00:37:13.340 and you read uh the early church fathers and all the problems that the church had in the first

00:37:18.920 three or four hundred years right there were a lot of fake christians that you had to deal with

00:37:24.400 you had all fake churches you had all sorts of heresies all sorts of problems going on

00:37:28.200 it was not an easy time at all and so like persecution actually produces uh this pressure

00:37:34.800 for people to have release valves to relieve that pressure and the release valve is heresy

00:37:40.460 the release valve is false teaching the release valve is is lots of bad stuff and so this idea

00:37:47.720 that like persecution is just the magic wand that makes everything great and brings out the true

00:37:52.120 christians that's that's simply not true historically that's it's a fantasy that's a

00:37:57.720 fantastic point because you think of like i mean we couldn't even figure out the hypostatic we

00:38:01.760 didn't even know the god man and what how that's working out for i think it's like 400 years to

00:38:06.260 figure that out yeah and so you've got all this heresy going on at the same time and and you're

00:38:11.120 being fed the lions like that like this double whammy on both sides and then you think of like

00:38:15.380 you know the persecuted church in china right so like so they're doctrinal bosses right i think i

00:38:20.820 i think i have a solution i think i have a solution to make everybody happy we could we 0.55

00:38:24.780 could get we could persecute baptists and then they'd have their persecution and we'd have our

00:38:28.820 christian nationalism that's a great idea that's we'll see you know the back we don't believe that

00:38:33.760 that's the irony that the baptists are worried about that but it does sound like they kind of

00:38:38.080 want that you know so the presbyterians could have their christendom and the baptists could

00:38:41.680 have the persecution and regenerative church membership and everybody be happy but i would

00:38:46.340 be really upset now here's the beautiful thing that i'm really i i actually you know you know

00:38:51.200 speaking genuinely i'm really encouraged by is that um uh the rhetoric of of you know call it

00:38:57.440 pietism and i'm trying to be fair i just don't know what else to call it i'm not trying to that

00:39:01.840 i'm not trying to use uh hyperbole i i really do think it is a form of pietism um but the pietism

00:39:07.700 that's coming out from some of the particular baptist uh groups and i'm saying particular

00:39:11.480 reform baptist 1689 guys which i would be one of them i hold the 1689 um it's actually not i've

00:39:19.240 been surprised but like these are guys faithful guys with a lot of esteem a lot of clout a lot

00:39:23.600 of credibility that they earned right they deserve it um and yet their rhetoric is landing

00:39:29.020 flat with a lot of people um yeah surprise and i'm talking about baptists again it's not just

00:39:34.540 like the Presbyterians are like, there you go again. I'm cleaning up on YouTube and Twitter 0.84

00:39:39.580 and stuff and all glory to God, all the grace of God. But I mean, I'm getting a ton of followers

00:39:44.440 and getting a ton of people emailing. I'm having to talk them off a ledge. They're like, I'm never

00:39:50.340 going to give to G3 again. I canceled my tickets for the conferences. I'm like, you know what? I

00:39:55.600 think they're still good guys. Let's give it time. Let's chill out. Let's have these discussions,

00:39:58.980 you know blah blah blah um but my point is to say that um that yeah like you know the 0.52

00:40:04.180 the baptist wants to be persecuted and so why don't you let the presbyterian have his chrysidom

00:40:08.580 and he can persecute the baptist but ironically and this is a grace from god the the majority of

00:40:14.840 baptists in the pews uh don't agree with some of the you know these baptists in the pulpits they're

00:40:20.480 like yeah chrysidom christian culture sounds great christian national yeah i'm a christian

00:40:24.000 nationalist you know and and they want to go for it and for them now sure it's fine to say well 0.91

00:40:28.360 they're theologically you know ignorant or they don't understand the inner workings of blah blah 0.90

00:40:32.140 blah um yeah but but at the same time instead of being so disparaging i think like we should also 0.97

00:40:37.540 acknowledge um the the average baptist in the pew the appeal of christian nationalism to them is

00:40:43.680 not just that they're neanderthals and don't understand theology um it's because they genuinely

00:40:48.400 love the lord jesus and and just simply want to obey him in every realm of life and that's and

00:40:53.980 and that is i think at its heart that is christian nationalism and guys will say that's the

00:40:58.120 Motten Bailey, there's the bait and switch, you know, like, um, no, no, but that, what does

00:41:02.680 obedience look like? And I think a lot of guys have not ever had to contemplate it. And that's

00:41:07.420 where it goes back to the eschatological issue. A lot of guys have never contemplated what it

00:41:12.400 would look like, what, what we, what, what, uh, things we'd have to practically figure out in

00:41:18.120 terms of obedience in every sphere. If we ever won, they've never had to think about that because

00:41:23.320 they, they, they're, they're convinced that we never will win their eschatology plays a point

00:41:27.440 that but what do you seriously what do you do if 70 and i thought i thought you know james white

00:41:31.300 did a good a good job on that particular tweet where he said like what do you do if you know

00:41:35.600 70 of the nation is regenerate like what kind of laws do you write what kind of like you know you

00:41:42.120 know what i mean like and i think most baptists you know have been able to go you know in this

00:41:46.960 last 150 years have been able to live their entire life and never have to contemplate that question

00:41:51.320 because it's for them it's it's a foregone conclusion it'll never happen yeah it's like

00:41:55.840 being a fan of the detroit lions and thinking about the super bowl like like what uh you know

00:42:01.960 i would never really thought about it before you know or like a dog chasing a car you know like i

00:42:06.440 what do i do if i catch one uh but that's that's that's really like the attitude right is well

00:42:12.020 we're just never gonna win we're doomed to fail like that's in the background and and so um but

00:42:17.140 i think like a vision the thing that's attractive to people is a vision of of success like you may

00:42:23.720 what if what if you're not doomed to fail what if a nation can be evangelized what if what if

00:42:30.580 that can happen what if it can happen quickly um i mean you you see this like i mean one of the

00:42:35.180 things that i you brought up in in my article um my last article was like you see this in the bible

00:42:41.780 and some of it is like just this covenantalism right that we talked about earlier in in that

00:42:47.240 And like, it's, this is like nails on the chalkboard for a lot of Baptists, but like people where we aren't individual solitary human beings that are totally on islands and tabula rasa.

00:43:00.120 Like we've talked about this with, with cultural stuff that you aren't just, you're, you're not just like Neo in the matrix where you just plug something into your neck and that's either the Bible or like secular culture.

00:43:11.200 And then you just download that into your brain.

00:43:13.400 That's not how people are.

00:43:14.620 Like there's tons of influences, family, society, everything else that drives how you think.

00:43:20.900 And so like in the Bible, you see Jonah go to Nineveh and the king of Nineveh believes him.

00:43:28.280 He doesn't even tell him to do anything.

00:43:29.580 It's just like Nineveh is going to get nuked in 40 days.

00:43:32.500 Look out. 1.00

00:43:33.940 And the king of Nineveh is like, wow, he's probably right. 1.00

00:43:38.360 We better fast.

00:43:39.800 And he makes everybody fast.

00:43:41.660 and he didn't say you know he didn't make a decree now only do this if you mean it uh he made the

00:43:47.580 entire city fast and what did god do god didn't say well they really believed it so i'm gonna

00:43:54.600 spare them it's like no they they they did this performative thing and i'm going to spare them

00:44:01.320 because of it and so is every single ninevite there regenerate and and saved and believing

00:44:06.500 no um were there maybe that were maybe we don't know for sure the men of Nineveh yes he doesn't

00:44:14.440 say some of them but the men of Nineveh will rise up and judge they'll be on my side generation and

00:44:20.080 judge this generation of Israel and like yeah I don't know I want to make a great point uh great

00:44:26.700 point I want to jump in here in defense of Baptists a little bit um uh I don't think that uh this 0.78

00:44:33.520 comes out of, I think some of the rhetoric, some of the problems and the skepticism comes from the

00:44:38.680 historical development of things, but I don't think it's necessitated by 1689 federalism or

00:44:45.600 something like that. I think actually baptism, Baptist theology as an American phenomenon

00:44:52.120 is its own unique development. And it grew up in a cultural political context in which

00:45:01.780 The secular narratives about the meaning of America had adopted liberal rhetoric about absolute individual freedom and universalism and universal rights and all that rhetoric that defines what I call the post-war American political myth.

00:45:16.920 And I think American Baptist was kind of developed within that milieu. And so I don't think it's necessitated by 17th century Baptist literature. I think it's necessitated by just the political phenomenon of 20th century America.

00:45:34.800 that's helpful right that's that's kind of my point so because like if you took if you took

00:45:39.560 someone like like nehemiah cox and even like john owen and some of these other congregationalists

00:45:44.440 who are pro pro cromwell i you can i will bet anyone you know thousands of dollars that they

00:45:51.980 would not have said that the political society needed to be secular of course not john gill

00:45:57.980 like i mean you read john gill and he talks of he talks about the civil magistrate yeah um and and

00:46:03.840 it enforcing keeping uh the first table of the law not just in regards to love for neighbor but

00:46:09.320 the first four of the commandments loving the lord um these these baptist guys were

00:46:13.760 sabbatarian they thought that society should be sabbatarian i'm sabbatarian like so and and

00:46:18.440 here's the thing it wasn't it wasn't a wrongful binding of the conscience because some of the

00:46:21.640 baptists you know reformed baptist brothers you know will be like well you know the baptist has

00:46:25.140 a strong understanding of the liberty of the conscience and this yeah amen um but within a

00:46:29.720 context right in a context yeah but but here's it but here's the beauty of um like uh sabbath

00:46:35.820 laws um the state uh can enforce and legislate a day of rest um but caesar can never legislate

00:46:43.700 a day of worship so he can he can legislate the distractions and and blast blasphemy and and um

00:46:51.940 perversions of of worship be removed but he can't make the heart of man worship so so to say that

00:46:59.100 you know businesses are going to be closed on the lord's day you know except for act you know

00:47:03.840 works of mercy and necessity like that's i mean that and and we're not talking about this uh

00:47:08.980 hypothetical utopia we're talking about um our nation not that long ago yeah our nation not that

00:47:15.940 long ago and i think we've just so quickly forgotten so if we don't but this is what i

00:47:19.820 want to get to now so let's transfer over and maybe maybe we got like 15 20 minutes but this

00:47:23.660 is really interesting that you guys have talked about i heard you that's why i invited you on the

00:47:27.080 So if we don't get these things straight and we stick with just this kind of boomer con theology, you know, Baptist and some Presbyterians alike, and we keep going down this road and, you know, in our political, you know, system, as we know, it continues to fall apart because of all the pagans and then Christians being pietists and not really, you know, dealing with it.

00:47:50.320 What is that going to result in? 0.86

00:47:51.960 Well, I don't think it's kind of like an if we go down this path. I think it's kind of already baked into the cake. And I think what you're referring to is the phenomenon of what's called Caesarism.

00:48:04.100 that's right yeah right talk to me about that caesarism um was kind of foreseen because

00:48:09.700 democracy as like this um you know this this zeitgeist of like democracy where all the old

00:48:15.820 monarchies of europe had to transition and become more of a you know people's republics right that

00:48:21.340 was kind of like the phenomenon that was happening a lot of conservatives in the uh 18th and 19th

00:48:27.420 century were saying that democracy can't sustain itself and eventually it was gonna um since there

00:48:33.140 was no since there was no one binding the nation together and focusing it on some sort of collective

00:48:38.700 will what was going to happen is you were going to have this like cultural anarchy where everyone

00:48:43.440 was going their own way nobody belonged to the nation nobody belonged to each other there was no

00:48:48.720 roots or no coincidence of will or coincidence of of culture and that you were going to have

00:48:54.940 someone that kind of came into power as sort of a hero and he kind of absorbed all that he became

00:49:00.580 the representative of the people. He became the embodiment of the national will. And that was

00:49:04.760 called Caesarism. And the first modern Caesarist was Napoleon Bonaparte. I almost said Napoleon

00:49:10.860 dynamite, but Napoleon Bonaparte. But yeah, so anyways, but so Napoleon Bonaparte, he was kind

00:49:18.160 of seen as, so after the French revolution, right, their whole objective was to tear down

00:49:22.320 the ancient regime, the Ancien regime, their whole, their whole, the whole objective was to

00:49:27.700 tear down this, you know, thousand years of Christendom and create this, you know, individualistic,

00:49:34.180 universalistic, utopian society. And in the early years of the French Revolution, Napoleon was pro

00:49:40.500 French Revolution. He was pro all of this stuff. And then he realized what was happening was

00:49:44.500 complete chaos. And so he swept in, took control and said, I am the state. Like, like that was his,

00:49:51.600 that was his phrase. He said, what is a throne? Because the monarchies used to embody France.

00:49:55.560 they were the embodiment of friend the monarchy was the embodiment of the of the french people

00:49:59.960 and he said what is the throne but but a wooden chair i am the state i am the embodiment of the

00:50:05.220 people's will and he became the first modern caesar because when you had these organic i am

00:50:10.960 the science well actually i mean yeah i mean exactly well that's a microcosm example but

00:50:17.620 that's it seems like that it's the same kind of sentiment of like i am science it doesn't matter

00:50:22.260 We used to have like all these different individuals and collective and we would debate it together.

00:50:27.340 But now there's one voice and I am it.

00:50:29.700 Yeah.

00:50:30.300 Yeah.

00:50:30.660 But I mean, this is this is what happens when there's no direction, when there's no people like the U.S. federal government does not actually represent the people.

00:50:38.560 It's just a big bureaucracy, just a big administrative state that had kind of functions in its own in its own like like a silo.

00:50:46.600 Right. It doesn't care about the interests of the people, their culture, their history.

00:50:49.380 It's only working directly for its own interests.

00:50:52.260 right and what's going to happen is you're going to have somebody that comes and embodies the will

00:50:56.320 of the people and the will of the people right now is extremely ticked off and the caesar is not

00:51:00.660 going to be nice that's just what happened right so i agree with all that here's a question is a

00:51:04.460 genuine question question because i just want to understand at the time in france was there uh was

00:51:09.900 there a unity with the will of the people so we've got this whole bureaucracy that doesn't actually

00:51:13.700 represent us but the people were they united because the one thing that that i struggle with

00:51:18.300 with that scenario playing out in america is i think we have two very very opposing wills of the 0.99

00:51:25.420 people you know i mean one one is um that they want to cut off the penises of little boys and 0.97

00:51:32.160 murder babies in the womb and then the other will the people is not even necessarily distinctly 0.99

00:51:37.200 christian right we want it to be that again but it's like i want to be able to work a job be left

00:51:41.580 alone be able to own a home uh have single income uh be able to have kids and not be afraid you know

00:51:47.540 you know that we're going to be uh you know slaughtered in the street right i think like

00:51:52.640 you know what i mean but my point is like we're so divided as a nation we don't have a singular

00:51:56.780 political will well as a nation so what guy that like i think that's what we keep going back to

00:52:03.820 trump was kind of like that guy but only for 50 of the nation i don't know what i mean i don't

00:52:09.460 think the first i don't think the first category is a is a will of the people i think it's completely

00:52:14.160 orchestrated elite and it's propagated in front of all of us into the major institutions i don't

00:52:19.640 think it's the will of the people at all so you think that that's actually a small minority yeah

00:52:24.840 but that's being and i'm not even like half the country yeah and i'm not even saying i trust the

00:52:29.500 people i'm not really a populist you know i'm kind of um i'm kind of suspicious of the will

00:52:33.940 of the masses you know so um i i do i do have sort of an aristocratic elitist mind uh set not

00:52:40.500 that i am an aristocrat or elite but i do i don't trust the masses um i do i do think that a healthy

00:52:46.140 society has leaders and it has representatives that shape the will of the people but in a caesar

00:52:52.800 situation in which there's just complete democratic chaos and nobody gets along with anybody you are

00:52:58.320 going to have someone that comes in and claims to be you know he may not necessarily accurately

00:53:02.440 represent the will of the people like i think if you had someone like um like a like a like a putin

00:53:08.160 or some some sort of strong man like um like like something like take someone like um like or like

00:53:13.520 victor orban in hungary i don't think he's a caesarist but i think he does accurately represent

00:53:18.520 the will of the people you know but i don't think our season would be that for us i don't just

00:53:23.420 playing the speculation game for a moment like who like who would be someone like that he doesn't

00:53:28.120 exist yet yeah or he yeah he listened kind of was but i feel like he's so lost touch with his base

00:53:34.120 you know like he's still defending the goodness of warp speed vaccine and stuff like that it's

00:53:37.980 like dude i don't i don't think he's really on the political scene yet or at least he hasn't

00:53:42.780 taken on those characteristics where do you think he'll come from do you think he'll be a pastor

00:53:46.900 do you think he'll be like no i don't think so i i disagree with cj in that but we'll go ahead cj

00:53:52.980 yeah i don't i don't think he'll be i don't really think he'll be a christian i think he'll

00:53:56.520 be a like a right really like a strong right i think he'll use christianity um to appeal to the

00:54:02.620 people but i don't think he'll be like an evangelical or anything like that i think

00:54:06.540 they're too pacified, which

00:54:08.460 may be a good thing. I don't know if you necessarily

00:54:10.400 want a Caesar figure

00:54:12.560 to have like

00:54:13.720 an evangelical belief

00:54:16.460 system. I think that would be very

00:54:17.700 distortionary. Is that a word? Distortionary?

00:54:20.800 I don't think he would be

00:54:22.280 evangelical, but I think he will be on the

00:54:24.500 right. I think he'll be

00:54:25.720 I think he'll, I think actually it'll be 1.00

00:54:28.420 someone like a Bukele. You know what he 1.00

00:54:30.380 did like in El Salvador, like gathering

00:54:32.500 up the gangs and like imprisoning people, like very

00:54:34.500 law and order. I think it'll be more like that.

00:54:36.540 I think it'll be someone that's kind of a tough on crime kind of person.

00:54:40.380 What do you, what do you think is good?

00:54:41.420 Cause I remember you guys talking about Mark Driscoll, you know,

00:54:44.860 and I thought that was super interesting. Like, you know, but go, go ahead.

00:54:48.060 You said you differ with CJ on this.

00:54:49.780 Yeah. I think I agree with CJ in the sense that conservative evangelicalism is not

00:54:58.880 the kind of seed bed that a Caesar would grow out of at least in current year in 2023.

00:55:06.540 I mean, just just looking at the controversy of this week and the reaction and everything like they're not ready for a Caesar yet if they can't look at voting data and demographics subjectively.

00:55:18.480 Right. And they lose their minds over it. So like they're they're not ready for it yet.

00:55:23.320 But I think things could change rather quickly. I think Trump like just just in terms of like discussions like this one that we're having over political theology would probably not be possible before 2016.

00:55:36.540 uh some of that is because of the situation of negative world uh some of that is because trump

00:55:41.620 won and was a was a you know a sulla figure maybe or or you know a proto-caesar um certainly this

00:55:49.860 kind of like popular tribune uh that that um identified with his people i mean it could be

00:55:55.100 it could be a guy like rfk like he just announced for the presidency and it has very has a very

00:56:00.160 appealing message to a lot of people um but ultimately like i think some of it is like you

00:56:05.900 we live in a mass media age and so without a doubt it absolutely has to be someone that

00:56:13.500 oozes charisma and yeah in fact like yeah yeah let me just say funny he has to be funny and likable

00:56:21.500 uh yeah that's well let me let me just say this uh the idea of caesarism as a phenomenon was

00:56:27.320 really coined by max veber who is a sociologist and he wrote about it in his book or his like

00:56:33.020 monograph uh called charisma so if okay really yeah if you want to learn more about caesarism

00:56:38.500 max veber is the guy and his essay is called uh charisma i think it's just called charisma yeah

00:56:43.160 okay but that that's and so like i brought um i brought up mark driscoll in that context

00:56:48.860 because here's this guy who um i remember listening when i was in college you know

00:56:56.260 watching his sermons listening to college for me and i loved i loved it he was awesome i i loved

00:57:02.100 it too and i remember him talking about like he learned to preach not by going to seminary and

00:57:06.800 going to a homiletics class but by watching and studying chris rock and it's like whoa i remember

00:57:13.480 that yeah you're right those are the most skilled preachers in our day that are able to convey

00:57:18.540 points by by being funny and and making it humorous and and things like that so um and that's what he

00:57:25.780 did like that's his sermons were all all like that like there there was some i they were hilarious

00:57:30.720 many of them and and you could just you're like man i'd like to hang out with that guy

00:57:35.440 uh that's how you felt and so um a caesar is going to be like like that like that's why trump

00:57:40.560 is so loved by people even though like yeah there's there's tons of stuff about him that

00:57:45.640 is awful and and terrible and i hate um just even even in like his presidency even though i supported

00:57:52.400 him like hardcore like you know majorly backed up like and when people especially before he's

00:57:58.840 going to win everything i was like no i he's the guy he's great uh and so it cost me a lot to

00:58:05.120 support him and so i was behind him i'm not criticizing him from the like other people do

00:58:09.460 i'm criticizing him from the perspective of a supporter uh but he was likable like i would i

00:58:15.100 would talk to people that are not were never really into politics kind of normies you know

00:58:19.560 and they'd they'd say you know we'd talk about politics buddies of mine i'm like well why do

00:58:24.540 you why do you like trump and they're like like to a man every single one of them be like he is so

00:58:30.120 funny like it's like i turn on the tv and everything he says is hilarious um and that's

00:58:37.240 that's the reality so he's gonna have to be someone that um on television in video on the

00:58:44.020 internet like it's just is popular funny like trump was hilarious on twitter uh that's part

00:58:49.940 of it as well um he was able to effectively use social media um and so it it would have to be

00:58:56.180 you know someone like that so that's why i'm like what could be a guy like mark driscoll like if

00:58:59.580 mark driscoll started to you know uh read about the friend enemy distinction and become extremely

00:59:04.660 right wing maybe um i don't know but like something like that like that's i mean that's part of like

00:59:10.740 the whole driscoll thing we covered this before like you know there were there problems with him

00:59:14.940 and things like that yeah i think so um there were there were ways that he sinned in his church

00:59:19.720 for sure but um and eric brought this up like the reason he had to go down is because he was not a

00:59:27.880 squishy big eva guy right um and so imagine if he hadn't gone down thing is that i think mark

00:59:33.380 had problems i was ax 29 pastor so i was i was okay you know part of some of those like i think

00:59:37.680 mark had problems um there are way bigger problems with chandler than there were with mark oh yeah

00:59:43.180 chandler's woke wokeism stuff are you are you kidding me i pulled my church out of acts 29

00:59:48.200 in 2018 when eric mason who at the time was on the international board for acts 29 wrote woke

00:59:54.160 church talking about white spaces and colored spaces at the lord's table like and he's and

00:59:59.740 and they're buds and and there was chandler just doubled down on on wokeism and you know the whole

01:00:05.300 like anglo six versus or seven versus uh you know african-american six that rhetoric you know the

01:00:12.660 white privilege kind of stuff all that kind of stuff that um so like driscoll wasn't a heretic

01:00:19.520 you got to give him that you know and so like i mean there were certain things like i mean i think

01:00:24.440 he could have brushed up on some of his doctrine don't get me wrong um and maybe certain things in

01:00:29.020 terms of his style and and a lot of a lot of the things that would have actually been like

01:00:33.520 objectively damning for driscoll i can't speak to because i wasn't there um it was a lot of the

01:00:40.320 behind the scenes kind of stuff like did like did you i would have to definitively like did you or

01:00:45.320 did you not curse out someone in pastor uh pastoral counseling because a lot of the public

01:00:49.500 stuff from the pulpit and those kinds of things um you can disagree with it and you can even say

01:00:54.060 it's sinful but it wasn't disqualifying not from the pulpit the closest you could get to that that

01:00:58.840 in terms of his like public um rhetoric would be actually in terms of written form under the

01:01:05.440 pseudonym of william wallace the second some of the things that he said about women and then you

01:01:09.720 know in terms of only like verified you know um big you know actions you know in terms of like

01:01:15.500 plagiarism or using church funds uh for the but even the church fund thing it's like okay other

01:01:21.320 people made that decision it's not you know like um he made the decision too but there was a

01:01:25.760 collective you can argue about how that's bad church polity this um this kind of like elite

01:01:30.280 you know they he didn't have a true plurality of elders you know but neither do presbyterians you

01:01:35.520 You know, so like so I, you know, I, you know, all that being said, my point is just like he, you know, you know, and then if you're using the funds because you're going to buy books for the use of the church so that the book, you know, you know, rises through through the ranks of the New York Times bestseller so that more people read it so that they have better, more Christian marriages.

01:01:52.320 Like, you know, so anyway, and I'm not saying there aren't problems with that and ethics involved, but in terms of like clear cut, disqualifying rhetoric, I can make a much more definitive.

01:02:01.520 So hear me.

01:02:02.360 I'm not saying Driscoll is the best guy in the world.

01:02:04.200 what i'm saying though is i can make a much clear definitive case for the disqualification of matt

01:02:09.340 chandler than mark driscoll yeah yeah absolutely and so like but imagine if like driscoll was still

01:02:15.560 on top like none of that had happened they hadn't you know taken him down and he was still on top

01:02:20.400 from what did it happen like 2013 2014 something like that um and so all of the trump years and

01:02:26.280 everything he's still at mars hill and still prom a prominent voice um and he's prominent in like

01:02:34.320 the big eva circles uh it wouldn't have gone as woke as it did like it couldn't it couldn't have

01:02:40.120 right if he was there and chandler wouldn't have been able to do the stuff that he did and eric

01:02:44.660 mason wouldn't have been able to do the stuff that he did so like all like there's a trickle

01:02:48.040 down effect of him getting you know knocked off of the as king of the hill right and all these

01:02:53.840 other guys sweep in and go mega woke like that that has that is an effect and so i mean i look

01:03:00.140 at it like yeah see you know he's kind of on this redemption path right and coming back into

01:03:05.360 prominence again um i mean i saw like jordan peterson's daughter is is attending his church

01:03:11.200 and and that's that's rather interesting yeah yeah michaela peterson's going there and and like

01:03:16.340 um you know tweeted about it or something like that uh so you think about those things um

01:03:23.220 But he he has an effect and he has. And so if he's drawing like millions of people that are listening to him again and things like this, like that, that's not something they're going to be able to avoid.

01:03:37.260 And that's going to have, like, he's going to be, I almost said bulwark. He is going to be someone that Big Eva will have to contend with. And so that's where I mean, in the context of the Caesarism discussion, and I think that's how we got started down that road. 0.69

01:03:56.540 I think like a guy like that can shift the needle majorly, even though evangelicalism as a whole is not ready for it yet.

01:04:07.040 But if all it takes is one leader who is fearless and is willing to tell the truth about things that everybody else lies about.

01:04:16.020 And so if you have that, then things can change really quick.

01:04:21.980 And so if he wants to be that guy, especially like our whole society is built on lies about everything.

01:04:27.220 And so if he starts telling, and he, and he's a guy who has shown, has demonstrated over the last 20 years that he's perfectly willing to tell the truth about things that everybody else lies about.

01:04:38.540 So, so when I bring it up, him up in that context, I'm not, I'm not just like, Oh, I hope it's him.

01:04:43.620 it's more like like the conditions for the kind of you know caesar in in the modern age um are

01:04:51.580 there because it's not going to be you know normally you would be like well it's going to 0.99

01:04:55.080 be some like general or something it would be some military figure but like the amer like that's out

01:04:59.600 of that's not going to happen like look i mean look at my generals dog uh general milley uh i

01:05:06.380 mean general milley just looks like he got out of the old country buffet uh lloyd austin as well

01:05:11.400 like i mean they're all and half of them are women you know it's like you're like the u.s

01:05:16.340 military today like anyone who has been an officer in the military has had a long career

01:05:20.260 uh will tell you like it's designed against having a coup like if you want to be a colonel or above 0.94

01:05:27.460 you have to completely submit to the whole you know globo homo agenda from day one or you're 0.98

01:05:34.400 never going to rise through the ranks like the whole pentagon is that way some of them maybe 0.96

01:05:37.740 slipped through the cracks like you have like the one that worked in trump his administration

01:05:41.540 briefly uh uh kind of a strange guy uh i can't uh michael uh something like he he made it through

01:05:49.620 the ranks but he's he's he's like a vietnam vet like he's an older older guy um like today that's

01:05:55.180 not going to happen like you're not going to get a military figure like a douglas mccarthur

01:05:58.660 um in there that's that's going to you know be a threat to the regime so it's going to have to

01:06:03.520 somewhere else be it or is he just not he doesn't have the um that he's he doesn't know how to talk

01:06:08.580 i don't you know i don't like i don't think i don't think elon has like um the personality

01:06:14.320 no it's not the personality i don't i think it's that the will to think politically i think he's

01:06:19.940 he's so restrained in terms of like economic functionality that i don't think he can think

01:06:24.500 in terms of like higher things i think he's he's strictly like an economic machiavellian you have

01:06:30.260 to have someone who's very politically oriented and okay to wield power i don't think elon wants

01:06:35.160 to wield power well i mean he i mean he did a little bit with the whole twitter thing but

01:06:39.500 you're right like i mean even the i remember the tweet where he said i'm voting republican for the

01:06:44.520 first time in my life because uh i always voted democrat because i thought they were the party of

01:06:49.760 kindness and tolerance i remember seeing that and this is like less than two years ago kindness

01:06:54.220 and tolerance i thought like and i and i looked like i i like googled it like how old is elon

01:07:00.260 i thought like how many years like how many times has he gone around the sun

01:07:04.500 thinking that democrats are the party of kindness and tolerance and i was like he's building rocket 0.99

01:07:09.240 ships how does this happen you know what i mean like how how can you be so dumb and so smart at 0.97

01:07:13.760 the same time and it's just you know different interests but but but he just doesn't well okay 0.55

01:07:20.300 yeah so maybe it's like a slow play so yeah but but if that is sincere uh to to express that level

01:07:27.420 of political ignorance shows that there's just very little interest because we know that he has

01:07:32.320 the intellect to understand something if he cared so that makes him seem like he's not a candidate

01:07:36.820 just affirming your point i also think that there's a place for someone like um like like

01:07:41.720 stalin so stalin the way he got into power and he was not he was not at all like um like a like

01:07:48.100 a disciple of of lenin as it turns out he was a party man he played himself cool he you know he

01:07:54.260 rose through the wings kind of in the background like trotsky was on the forefront of like the

01:07:58.340 revolutionary power and he was always like a labor man he was like writing and on the forefront

01:08:03.220 his agenda was just out in the open stalin was just behind the scenes keeping quiet nobody knew

01:08:07.780 what he thought or even who he was really he was just kind of a player until like right at the very

01:08:12.820 end he like succeeded lenin like in a surprise happenstance and suddenly like the entire like

01:08:19.300 leninist movement had turned stalinist in a completely different redirection so it could

01:08:23.700 could be someone like that it doesn't even have to be someone who's all the way he's out there

01:08:26.920 right now like it could be someone who's behind the backgrounds keeping themselves and their agenda

01:08:31.240 like on the down low that like there's a there's a considerable amount of right-wing anonymous

01:08:37.520 players within strategic places in society that don't even vocalize what they believe but they

01:08:43.020 are in positions uh i don't like it's not it's not ready yet but i could see someone kind of in

01:08:49.080 that position ready to seize power like immediately like that nobody even sees it coming so that's

01:08:54.860 another aspect of it's fascinating and just let the listener understand we're not saying and this

01:08:59.500 is the biblical model and this is what we're hoping for and this is like we're not saying that

01:09:03.460 um but we're just saying that like yeah when when christians when christians become pietist and and 0.71

01:09:10.160 throw in you know the towel and hand things over to paganism because secularism is just a place 0.93

01:09:15.880 older secularism is not a viable worldview i i describe it it's a parasite you have host and you

01:09:22.360 know the one true and definitely eternally viable host is the christian you know the christian faith

01:09:26.460 the christian worldview but there are other hosts that are have viability not to the same degree

01:09:31.060 but that are viable for 500 years you know even 5 000 years like one and the most viable host

01:09:37.320 other than christian faith would be christian heresies right not just not just paganism but

01:09:41.840 like islam uh judaism which is a christian heresy um you know because it's not just the old testament 0.88

01:09:46.740 minus the news the town you guys know these things you know it's a perversion and so um judaism and 0.99

01:09:51.220 islam i think are like these are going to be long standing you know world views because they have so 1.00

01:09:56.320 much viability because they are their tweaks and perversions of the christian faith you know which 0.86

01:10:01.180 is christ's principles which work god made the world he knows how it works his principles are

01:10:05.560 successful and and viable um and then there's paganism which is you know not like islam or

01:10:11.160 judaism but like norse mythology or things like that the old gods the rise of the old gods which

01:10:16.180 i think is where the west is headed um and paganism is also more viable i would consider it a host

01:10:22.420 it's not a parasite it is a host um but it's like there's christianity that's your best host then

01:10:27.640 there's christian heresies islam judaism that's the second best host like the second tier host

01:10:31.960 and then third tier host would be like paganism um but then secularism it doesn't even make the 0.99

01:10:36.500 host classification it's it's a it's a parasite and and it's a parasite that has looked like a 0.67

01:10:41.840 viable host one of the most viable hosts in all of human history because it attached itself to the

01:10:46.520 most vi the truly most viable host which is chrysidom and so it's been feeding off of chrysidom

01:10:51.860 you know ever since the enlightenment you can argue earlier you could argue later you know and

01:10:55.100 picking up steam along the way but um but the problem with parasites is eventually they kill

01:10:59.240 the host and and seal their own doom they die as well so uh secularism is not going to be what 0.53

01:11:03.920 replaces christianity secularism will be what kills christianity and itself it will implode

01:11:09.040 and paganism will likely take the place so what all that being said back to the listener we're

01:11:13.700 not saying these are the things we're hoping for we're saying but this is what we're observing if

01:11:18.100 we don't repent if we don't take a stand if we don't and out of that kind of of context that

01:11:23.940 kind of environment and culture of paganism replacing christianism and uh like then yeah

01:11:29.920 like some kind of some guy who speaks with like with religious rhetoric you know and is a staunch

01:11:37.160 defender of the family and normative like natural values that um and and he like yeah that guy could

01:11:44.580 could be king he could be king you know and and that is entirely possible because that's how much

01:11:50.340 um it's biblical no because that's how much we've lost our minds like it's it's very unusual well

01:11:56.460 And I would argue – you bring up that paganism will return. I haven't listened to that theology podcast episode yet.

01:12:06.140 It was really interesting.

01:12:06.800 I think maybe you're referring to that.

01:12:07.320 Yeah, yeah.

01:12:08.200 But – so I'm not going to disagree with them without listening.

01:12:10.400 I thought it before I even heard that, but yeah, but go ahead.

01:12:12.460 Yeah. I don't think so. I think Jesus conquered the principalities and powers and the elemental principles of the world, which is what the old covenant world was.

01:12:24.540 all the demons that ruled over all these nations um and and everywhere the gospel is gone like

01:12:30.420 those those um gods fall uh and i don't think they come back even though you are there demons

01:12:36.900 in the world and and so forth yes um i i think that um what is replacing it what the replacement

01:12:45.460 here is like wokeness is a christian heresy right wokeness is is this kind of uh puritanism

01:12:53.620 without jesus and without any hope of salvation without any hope of redemption um and so it it's

01:13:00.600 taken on like this religious fervor this religious zealotry um and it's it's it it is this like

01:13:07.080 replacement religion really uh for these people and i and i don't so i don't think that um yeah

01:13:12.360 you see it a little bit like these like pagan norse larpers and people that wear like thor

01:13:17.020 you know necklaces and things like that you see that a little bit um but i don't think that it i

01:13:22.200 I mean some of that is based around like far-right politics too and people wanting to get into like white identity and going back to the old gods.

01:13:30.500 That will fix everything.

01:13:32.520 That's not – but I don't think those things are coming back.

01:13:35.840 That toothpaste is not going back in the tube.

01:13:39.500 I think you could be right.

01:13:40.560 My thought is just like can principalities – so yes, the strongman has been bound and we're now plundering the house and we're sitting currently in human history of 2,000 years of plundering.

01:13:50.500 and so there's a lot of things you know a lot of demonic activity has been silenced and bound like

01:13:55.300 jesus is casting out devils all the time we're like you know let's get back to the early book

01:13:58.980 of acts let's do the same thing well they're just israel had a lot of devils yeah right like israel

01:14:04.120 had a lot of devils like we're talking about you know we're talking about a group of people in a

01:14:09.620 society that um that for hundreds of years had had had had been steeped in unbelief that rebelling

01:14:15.800 against Yahweh. And ultimately he came to his own and they received him not. And so there was a lot

01:14:22.320 of devils to cast out. And so I do believe that progressively throughout human history, there are

01:14:26.960 less and less devils. The strong man, Satan has been bound and his minions are being subdued by

01:14:31.900 Christ's body, which is the church in the world. But I guess my thought is if there are any devils

01:14:37.220 left, can devils move? So my thought is like if Zambia and Uganda, right, if Africa knows that 0.63

01:14:45.700 a man is a man and a woman is a woman and chrysidom takes root in africa and certain

01:14:50.220 parts of asia and these kinds of things you know in south america um and they come out of paganism

01:14:55.920 um do the gods do the do the old gods pagan gods die or do they move to the west right do they

01:15:04.300 find the house swept clean and put in order and come back you know and and you see what i'm saying

01:15:08.660 because chrysidom christ what he does is is he the christian god right i i like the you know

01:15:14.620 the the illustration of uh the hulk you know like like grabbing load key and slamming that

01:15:19.980 puny god like the christian god does not play jesus does not play well with with other gods

01:15:25.700 he doesn't share um and so uh and so what jesus does is the first thing he does is he moves into

01:15:31.360 a house and he empties it um and kicks out all puny gods um and then he sweeps it clean and 0.89

01:15:36.840 puts it in order and that's like back to the the padaya you know like uh the the curriculum and 0.99

01:15:41.140 the culture even like that the ocean was swimming in um christianity chrysidom and so jesus like he

01:15:48.120 he empties he first removes false gods because he will not share um his glory with another so he

01:15:54.560 empties the house and and you can do this with individuals but you can do it with with nations 0.83

01:15:59.040 and so he empties the house but then he also puts it into order and that's what chrysidom

01:16:03.340 for 500 years uh jesus thinking christian thought put it in order but then the problem is if you

01:16:09.440 then kick out jesus the god who emptied the house in the first place and put it all in order but

01:16:14.140 then you say hey thanks for cleaning up around here um you know see you later uh then you know

01:16:20.400 then i think in some ways you've set the stage um for for not only for false gods to come back

01:16:27.180 but for false gods to come back and then have access to an ordered house to do even greater

01:16:33.100 greater damage like paganism with technology that came from christianity and christian thought you

01:16:39.200 know and like and so there's i don't know i i'm not hanging my hat here saying this is my you know

01:16:44.040 forever official position but it's interesting to think about absolutely you know where we're at go

01:16:49.040 go ahead back to you guys sorry and is and is wokeness i mean is is is wokeness demonic like

01:16:54.200 i i use that phrase a lot and i'm because i mean it is it a demonic ideology yeah i think so i mean

01:17:00.020 all false false uh you know christian heresies are are demonic uh in in their nature so you know

01:17:09.180 is the house swept clean and then demons uh come back um i i think so like i mean what is

01:17:15.340 like when i say that abortion is um a sacrament to to these people like actual blood of babies

01:17:24.700 is being poured out on the ground like it's a ritual right like that's that's that's really

01:17:28.880 happening and we should look like we should read the book of leviticus and see that like the this

01:17:35.720 mirror image of it is is happening in our own society that that's that's very real or like

01:17:41.860 when you read oh go ahead i was i was just gonna because that's my point is the casting out is not

01:17:46.100 destroying we know there's an appointed time for these demons to actually be destroyed in the lake

01:17:50.580 of fire um but jesus goes to israel he's casting them out they're going somewhere and that's back

01:17:55.720 to the text you know of you know when a demon is cast out it goes through it's not when he cat he's

01:18:00.420 cast out he dies it's um or he's destroyed or he goes to the lake of fire when he's cast out he

01:18:04.920 goes through arid places waterless places like um and so i'm getting a little you know like haunted

01:18:09.980 cosmos here you know which which i love by the way but like but just thinking you know it's awesome

01:18:14.400 but i'm just saying like did did these did these pagan gods um yes christ is king he's progressively

01:18:20.820 his kingdom is growing but there are dips the trajectory for the post mill guy is up but there

01:18:25.140 are dips along the way and some of them could be deep deep dips and during one of those dips

01:18:29.460 the demons that were removed because of chrysidom they weren't killed they went somewhere and can

01:18:35.420 they come back for a season to be removed again you know but um i that's just a question i have

01:18:41.420 even within a post-millennial framework yeah i agree that's a good cj any any thoughts from you

01:18:47.340 you've been very patient no well talk about i have a i have a more of a classical email perspective

01:18:54.360 So I actually do believe that over time, it was the function and role of Christendom to silence the old gods.

01:19:02.180 But I do believe that they're going to make a last stand.

01:19:04.340 So I do. I mean, that's my take is over history, you know, Christ conquers the earth and Christendom is the like the expression, the embodiment of that conquering.

01:19:14.740 But at the end, there is a last stand and Christ comes back and sends them away forever until, you know, to eternal torment.

01:19:22.180 So I do think that there is a last stand, and I think we do see over the ebb and flow of history sort of the reverberance of these themes coming back and the ritualistic expression of these old – the influence of these old gods.

01:19:36.480 And so, yeah, that's my view.

01:19:38.840 Yeah.

01:19:39.500 So it sounds like we're right on board.

01:19:40.860 We have different ways of articulating, but you're right, like that our eschatological persuasions both accommodate that very real possibility.

01:19:47.840 because it's just like it's i just get tired of hearing like it's just a joke we're just joking

01:19:53.000 we're just joking about the same say you know satanic grammys we're just joking about like

01:19:57.340 i i don't it's gotten to a point with like with leaders and whether it be you know the the global

01:20:03.680 you know economic forum you know or like whether it's the george soros type or whether it's the

01:20:07.960 you know the hollywood you know realm but like there's just too many like verified testimonies

01:20:14.360 and examples going for decades now and only ramping up for me to think that it's just we're

01:20:18.980 really just joking that it's a joke i'm like i think you guys love the devil i think yeah i think

01:20:23.440 all i think all cultures are are manifestations of of spiritual struggle so yeah i think i think

01:20:29.520 every culture is is the reflection of the uh the conflict between angels and demons like basically

01:20:36.600 like that so i i think yeah those that's they're joking but they're also bragging and mocking about

01:20:41.960 their um occupation right of the american culture right yeah right they may be joking but i i don't

01:20:48.460 think satan's joking there's there's actually a really creepy oh man like there's actually you

01:20:53.040 you would like this but there's actually a really there's actually a really creepy like uh not

01:20:57.140 creepy but it's like a really neat way of expressing what's happening um and it was

01:21:02.760 written by a catholic but he just talks about the fact that like everyone is looking at these

01:21:07.160 forms of entertainment and they're looking at the way that we're amused by them um he

01:21:11.900 calls them barbarians. And he basically says that like modern man is looking at the barbarian and

01:21:17.620 watching him, we're tolerating him and we're not really afraid. And then he says, we're tickled 0.81

01:21:21.920 by the barbarians irreverence, his comic inversion of our old certitudes and our fixed creeds

01:21:27.520 refreshes us. And we laugh. And then he says, but as we laugh, we are watched by large and

01:21:32.940 awful faces from beyond. And on those faces, there is no smile. So that's my view. I mean,

01:21:40.280 it's creepy i mean it's that's hilarious that's hilarious belloc by the way who's a roman catholic

01:21:45.960 writer but still i i agree with that i think beyond the shadow of of the forms of entertainment

01:21:51.920 that are before us are these unsmiling faces watching us you know dude as you literally as

01:21:57.380 you're starting to talk about that all of a sudden like there's like thunder happening outside right

01:22:03.020 now i don't know if you guys could hear it but like it was a clear sky and now like i'm hearing

01:22:06.440 thunders on the cell so anyways i i need to um i need to be manly and go ahead and land the plane

01:22:12.240 so that i can crawl under my covers oh jesus jesus blood um but yeah i no this is really

01:22:20.060 really interesting i'd love to have you guys back on again in the future and uh i appreciate just

01:22:24.560 um your work and and standing for the truth and um yeah and and just everybody listening again

01:22:31.320 And we, I think of like Great Heart Pilgrim's Progress, you know, part two and like the

01:22:37.280 corporate version, like the church, Great Heart could have made it to the celestial

01:22:40.860 city in an afternoon, but the goal was that little faith would get there, you know, Mr.

01:22:44.980 Ready to Halt, feeble-minded.

01:22:46.300 And so if anybody made it all the way to the end of the episode, I just want to say, yeah, 0.98

01:22:52.520 there are guys we disagree with, but like, we love these guys.

01:22:54.940 I love Josh Bice.

01:22:56.460 I love, you know, Scott Annual.

01:22:58.000 i love like and and we fought against wokeness together and it's just it's frustrating we we

01:23:03.740 agreed on the problem and some of those guys we agreed on the problem and just i'll speak for

01:23:08.360 myself maybe not you guys but it's not just we agreed on the problem they helped me see the

01:23:12.260 problem they led me in in that they you know i was playing robin to their batman and um and and

01:23:19.700 it's and so it's not uh it's not we're not like we don't want to just uh trivialize uh it's sad

01:23:25.780 that we don't agree on the solution and um and uh but these are brothers we love them and um and i

01:23:32.560 i think i think a lot of these guys are going to come around i really do i feel really hopeful

01:23:37.040 i really do me too all right thank you guys so much for coming on the show really appreciate it

01:23:41.940 and uh thanks to all the listeners for tuning in god bless thank you thanks can i be frank with

01:23:46.900 you for just a second right here at the end look some of you guys you're financially supporting

01:23:51.800 this ministry, and from the bottom of my heart, I say thank you. I cannot thank you enough.

01:23:58.420 However, some of you, you just, you can't afford it. In fact, some of you, you shouldn't afford it.

01:24:05.240 Let's be honest. I mean, we're living in Joe Biden's ridiculous economy. Our nation and our 0.91

01:24:12.020 totalitarian political elites lost their minds over the last three years due to COVID. We have

01:24:20.400 written checks that we simply cannot cash. It doesn't matter if people change the definition

01:24:26.280 of a recession. We are living in a recession right now regardless. Some of you are struggling

01:24:33.240 to afford a carton of eggs at the grocery store. You cannot support financially this ministry at

01:24:40.260 this time, nor should you, but you could still help us tremendously. I am asking you, please,

01:24:47.580 if you're willing to do so, take one minute of your time. Leave us a five-star review on your

01:24:53.880 favorite podcast platform, iTunes, Spotify, whatever that might be. This is the way the

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01:25:07.080 You leave us a five-star review and our podcast shows up for more people. And the Word of God

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01:25:19.220 gets out there. Help us get it out there. Thanks for tuning in.

The NXR Podcast - May 02, 2023

THEOLOGY APPLIED - The Rise Of Pagan Gods & The New Caesar ｜ Mark Driscoll, Elon Musk, & Donald J. Trump w Andrew Isker & C.Jay Engel

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