00:12:20.060CJ brings up Elizabethan England and the time after that.
00:12:22.860When the 1689 Baptist Confession was written, this is 100 years before the French Revolution.
00:12:32.940It was inconceivable that in their minds to have a world that was not Christian in the mere Christendom sense.
00:12:43.360They couldn't even begin to comprehend what that would look like.
00:12:46.760They couldn't imagine what Soviet Russia would look like or Mao's China or any of the monstrosities of the 20th century or this totalitarian liberal democracy that we live under today.
00:13:00.480That's not something they could even begin to comprehend in the world that they lived in.
00:17:27.680It's a question of, you know, are we talking about, because you see these guys where it's like Christian is only used as a noun in the New Testament.
00:19:20.300And there's some things that I'm working through, but all that being said, a lot of the guys
00:19:23.500who claim to be covenantal aren't really covenantal in their thinking.
00:19:26.520and so all that being said um i i think the g3 guys i'll just say this and i'll put it back to
00:19:32.000you but i think the g3 guys you know steel manning their argument or i can't really steel man their
00:19:37.500argument because they haven't really made it uh an argument that you know it's mostly been like
00:19:41.260like and that's that's part of the frustration with it is it's been silly phrase questions that
00:19:45.580they know we don't we don't hold to like who's going to be the protestant pope you know like um
00:19:49.920so that that's not making it so i can't call it a silly argument because they're not even making
00:19:52.920an argument they're asking a question like and which is kind of to be fair it's kind of like
00:19:56.860asking like um you know uh how often are you beating your wife right it's like you know like
00:20:02.140i mean it's really it's really disingenuous and and even i think deceitful a little bit and so
00:20:06.420anyway so i can't say that the um i can't steel man their arguments because they don't have one
00:20:11.080uh or that they have and they in in their own defense they've said like arguments are coming
00:20:15.140soon definitions are coming soon so they really have not presented an argument um but what i will
00:20:20.480do because they're brothers i'll steal man their what i perceive to be as their motives as their
00:20:25.140intentions and i think scott has expressed it a little bit better than josh in some of his tweets
00:20:30.360um that that he uh one of the things that really stood out to me that i profoundly disagree with
00:20:36.240but that i appreciated because it just gave us a clue into what's going on there um he he talked
00:20:42.360about how he sees chrissidom as the culprit chrissidom cultural christianity this kind of
00:20:48.660So a Christian nation, Christian nationalism, Christendom, cultural Christianity, all different ways of describing a similar concept.
00:20:57.360He sees that as the culprit for nominal Christianity, and he sees nominal Christianity producing nominal seminaries, nominal pastors, nominal preaching, and ultimately lending towards less, not more, in terms of using Christian back to using as a noun now, actual regenerate individuals.
00:21:15.940and so so steel manning i can't steel man the arguments because they haven't given given us
00:21:20.480one yet but steel manning the intentions the motives because they are brothers and so we're
00:21:24.400thinking the best in that regard i think their intentions are we don't want people to go to hell
00:21:28.560and and we legitimately think more people go to hell under chrysidom uh than they do uh downright
00:21:34.060paganism um and and i don't even think they would say pagan well i think they i think they would
00:21:38.420include that um and so all that being said the problem with that that is somewhat consistent
00:21:42.820with the way a lot of baptists think but with that the argument that you can naturally make i mean
00:21:47.560it's a real you know those two dots are real easy to connect um well then you know don't catechize
00:21:53.100your kids right because you don't you know like so apply that from a national level to the family0.59
00:21:57.700level with with christian parenting right well you know kids that grow up in a home that's pagan
00:22:02.200have a better chance of you know of hearing a pure gospel even if they only hear it one time
00:22:06.080from an outside source uh that they haven't been you know they haven't been programmed to build up
00:22:11.280this immunity towards the true gospel by hearing false nominal gospels you know and those kinds of
00:22:15.820things and so therefore pagan kids raised in pagan environments pagan homes uh would stand a better
00:22:22.480chance at conversion and all this is silly you know but but they don't believe that yeah of course
00:22:28.020they don't believe that of course they don't believe it so just pan it out and apply it to
00:22:32.320the world and instead of just a family so anyways i'm saying that to say that's i think still manning
00:22:37.720their intentions giving the benefit of the doubt i think they want people to go to heaven right
00:22:41.160And I don't think you can have a better intention than that.
00:23:00.040No, I think that's probably a main part of it.
00:23:02.800um they have this conception of um i think that they have this conception where um culture is
00:23:14.540is something that doesn't really have an effect on the development of of people and so they they
00:23:20.440kind of think of this is very enlightenment uh source thinking where people can uh they're
00:23:25.400developed by how they study and what they think about certain propositions very rationalistically
00:23:29.540They don't realize that God often uses cultural institutions, even art and aesthetics, and the things that shape our sentiments and demeanor and instincts.
00:23:40.520All of those things, I don't want to say means of grace in like a sacramental way, but those are means that God uses to shape people's minds and direct their attention to heaven.
00:23:50.760So I don't think that there's – I think it's a very enlightenment idea that you can take an individual, and if only he has no cultural distractions, if he just looks at the pure word of God and exegetes those things for himself and comes to those conclusions on his own, I don't think that is actually how Christianity spreads.
00:24:12.580I think it actually does spread through the shaping of sentiment, through the shaping of instincts, your demeanor, the way that your own mind interprets the things around you.
00:24:22.300I think those are much more formative things.
00:24:25.060So, for instance, like in the 20th century, obviously, Christianity as a culture phenomenon has completely fallen off the map.
00:24:33.160And I think there's a lot more nominal Christianity than there is right now than there has been in a very long time.0.95
00:26:33.620This is going to culminate in my point that there are two kingdoms at play here.
00:26:39.880There is our responsibilities within the created order to take care of our family and our kin and the people that God has given around us, that we have responsibility toward the health and welfare of those things in material, temporal, civil terms that don't really have to do with getting into heaven.
00:26:58.980I think those are two different realms, and we have obligations and responsibilities based on the fact that we're creatures of God, and these obligations precede the fall.
00:27:09.360They precede the Great Commission even, right?
00:27:11.460This is where the two kingdoms comes in.
00:27:12.960They precede even the Great Commission, and so our responsibilities to build a world around us that reflects the heavenly city I think is part of our responsibility.
00:27:23.380But I don't think that the critics of Christian nationalism can think in those terms at all.
00:27:28.280I mean, they have sort of their own version of one kingdom theology where the only thing that matters is heaven and we're pilgrims because nothing here matters.
00:27:39.680The only thing that matters is eternity, and I don't think that's true.
00:27:43.900I think there are temporal kingdom obligations and duties that we have.
00:27:48.320and then all the one kingdom guys that i'm a fan of though are not you know and none of us are
00:27:54.100technically one kingdom but the emphasis isn't on uh being so heavenly bound that we're no earthly
00:27:58.640good if anything the emphasis is on this is the kingdom but it's here but the critics are coming
00:28:04.480to earth that christ is going to return in the sky we're going to meet him as the accompany
00:28:08.580party to go somewhere else where he had no to usher him back into this world that's a blood0.64
00:28:14.000bot world so i you know the one kingdom kind of guys that i'm with which we would still hold the0.68
00:28:18.140two kingdoms light and dark rather than common and sacred but you know those kind of guys that
00:28:22.360i'm linked up with um actually put i think a bigger emphasis on our earthly duty than even
00:28:27.860the classical two kingdom guys like like steven wolf but i but i i was responding to the critics
00:28:32.520though the people that don't have we don't have any obligations here you know right those no you're
00:28:37.180absolutely right so that's a really good point and i actually haven't considered that and that's
00:28:41.180really helpful for me because i've been thinking you know two kingdom is part of the problem but
00:28:44.460that's i was in san diego i passed in san diego so i was just south of westminster escondido
00:28:48.820where they were i'm pretty sure like you know they say you know that bonson died you know of like
00:28:54.280there were some natural causes but i think some people at westminster escondido might have cut
00:28:59.280his brake lines out or something you know something i think they might have had a hand
00:29:01.920but uh but we're talking about here first this is cutting edge cutting edge journalism right here
00:29:07.080But, I mean, we're talking about Van Druden, the gold standard for, like, you know, nothing will transfer to the kingdom to come, you know, except for the physical body being resurrected because we have to at least encompass that to avoid being, you know, outright heretics.
00:29:22.540And so, you know, whether it be Michael Horton or Van Druden or, you know, these kinds of guys, you know, and Frame, I think, did a decent job, you know, combating them, you know, with his Escondido theology thing back in the day that he got a lot of flack from.
00:29:32.880that's been so much because i was in san diego that so when i always think who's the problem
00:29:37.300who's the problem i always think two kingdom is the problem and there's radical 2k they're
00:29:41.220definitely the problem and there's classic 2k and they're they're kind of the problem
00:29:44.840and steven wolf but my point is steven wolf's book and you cj and just the conversation we're
00:29:49.100having right here and when i finished reading steven wolf's book i was like okay i still
00:29:52.680disagree with them i still disagree with the the classic 2k uh thing but i i know it's it's steeped
00:29:57.420in the reform tradition calvin and these guys so it's legitimate it's orthodox um you know i still
00:30:02.820disagree with them, but I realized, Oh man, these guys are on my team. You know, these guys are
00:30:06.520absolutely my team. Now I'm, I'm presuppositional, you know, whereas like Wolf is more of a Thomist.
00:30:13.620And so like, he's going to argue from nature. And I always want to say, Hey, that's a great
00:30:16.680argument from nature and a great argument from reason. But God also wrote a book and we're
00:30:20.080allowed to use the book, you know? So that's like, that's where I'm at, you know, and that puts me,
00:30:24.300you know, more in a Vantillian framework. But my point is to say, I always think of,
00:30:28.320I give the two kingdom guys, I think maybe more flack. I'm kind of repenting here as I'm listening
00:30:32.800to you because i'm thinking well i know it really is the radical 2k guys and the 1k guys but not0.86
00:30:40.420the 1k guys like joe boot you know or or myself or whatever well one two gays uh yeah two gays
00:30:47.0802k guys who is just it's all heaven and and no significance to the earthly life at all
00:30:53.120that's what you're saying i draw a very sharp very sharp distinction between escondido
00:30:58.800you know radical modern i would call it modernist 2k compared to like calvinist
00:31:04.780you know like continental european two kingdoms theology a lot of the modernist stuff came out of
00:31:10.280the puritan conformist debates in england um so a lot of the continental um thinkers did not have
00:31:17.680any you know they did not have a modernist 2k theology at all so i draw extremely sharp line
00:31:22.320there i wouldn't even call the critics that we just i said they were kind of 1 2k they're even
00:31:26.720hard to call one two k because like they don't have a theology of earth right at all you know
00:31:32.220like it's just and the other thing too about like like your position is you think that there is
00:31:38.760meaning in history because you're a post-millennial whereas they think like this whole thing doesn't
00:31:43.960doesn't even matter they're almost gnostic like the material has no relevance to them you know
00:31:48.860right i was gonna say it i was gonna say it i did not mean uh hop into the no hop into the
00:31:54.700is card because we we've been going back and forth it's really good but i'm sure you got
00:31:57.460some thoughts to talk about the gnostic thing you didn't yeah yeah yeah uh well that i think
00:32:03.200that's what it is i mean that's that's some of it too like um you have like you you bring up the
00:32:09.500yeah you know no earthly good a quote but that's that's that's so much of it um i mean some of that
00:32:15.260revolves around eschatology uh it's it's unavoid a lot of people are like oh it's not eschatology
00:32:20.940That's not what's driving it. For some people, it is. For some people, it is their eschatological views, but not everyone. There are a lot of like premillennial dispensationalist people who are nonetheless not consistent maybe with their eschatology and still really good.
00:32:39.380Like they still really care about their country and, and seeing their nation evangelized and
00:32:45.260Um, so it's not totally, that's not the whole kit and caboodle.
00:32:48.120Um, but, um, I think, you know, one of the things I wanted to say, going back to some
00:32:54.420of the discussion between one K and two K and zero K, um, is, is that, um, a comment
00:33:02.160that Joel made is that, um, Paul in his letter to the Ephesians, you know, tells parents to,
00:33:11.080to raise their children in the nurture and admonition of the Lord and the words, you
00:33:15.380know, and this happened, like, I say this all the time when I'm preaching, like, I don't0.97
00:33:19.260like using the original Greek or the original Hebrew all the time, because that's usually
00:33:23.480an opportunity for the pastor to show how big a brain he has and things like that.
00:33:27.920just to show off uh but sometimes so i try to do it sparingly unless it's like really really
00:33:32.680really important that you understand that particular word and the deep meaning that it
00:33:36.380has and the word that paul uses there in ephesians is padia right is padia and that is a word in
00:33:45.860greek i mean doug wilson talks about this a lot that's a word in greek that has massive meaning
00:33:51.220in classical antiquity right in terms of culture building right like padia means culture padia
00:33:57.780means um this like fully orbed culture that surrounds and engulfs everything around you
00:34:03.620that you're raised up in that cultural situation and so paul is commanding the ephesian christians
00:34:10.080to raise up their children inside this christian culture right so paul is commanding the ephesians
00:34:16.880christians to raise their children in a in something that's going to ensure that they
00:34:21.580they don't ever become regenerate and go to hell that's so cruel why would paul do that0.95
00:34:25.620Yeah, I know. It raises them in cultural Christianity. Like, why would you do that? Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. But that's what it is. And so you extrapolate that from the family because the family is like the first building block of the nation.
00:34:38.860And so you could you could apply from the family to the entire nation that that raising up your nation's children in the Pedia of the Lord is also a good thing that it's better for them to be influenced by Christian.0.91
00:34:53.700Like, I mean, just think about it, like in terms of just practical parenting, like I've got, I've got five little kids and, um, I, I don't let them watch much TV or YouTube or, or anything unless like I'm sitting there with them and have the remote.0.99
00:35:10.080um because the paedilla of this culture is is absolutely demonic and so i don't want that that
00:35:18.480stuff influencing my children i don't want my children's being their minds and hearts and souls0.86
00:35:23.520being shaped by that paedilla i want them to be in a christian paedilla and and so like you just0.84
00:35:30.880think about that across the like nation like look at um i like to watch like really old movies um0.63
00:35:36.420you know that are 80 70 80 years old and you could see like the the stark difference and they
00:35:42.840weren't all totally perfectly godly or anything you know 70 or 80 years ago but you could see the
00:35:48.500stark difference in the culture uh 70 or 80 years ago and the cultural expressions in movies and
00:35:54.240things like that and how christian it was or how much it was influenced by the gospel of jesus
00:35:58.740christ and that that's a good thing like i would rather like like i've even had like we watch
00:36:03.280looney tunes from the 1930s and they're mostly innocuous and silly and and and actually full of
00:36:09.260a lot of classical um uh cultural stuff and and so anyway like that's way better than the like
00:36:16.080you turn on netflix and see the cartoons that they have for little kids now like they're trying
00:36:19.620to turn them into trans you know like that's like their goal so it's like um it's so obvious that
00:36:25.740like christian culture is something that the apostle paul commands and that that christians0.99
00:36:33.400should be producing in their families and you can you can take that to the rest of the world that
00:36:37.360make that makes sense to apply that from from the family to the whole world and and that's what was
00:36:43.180done uh and the flip side of this too is like cj brings this up that there are a lot of nominal
00:36:49.600christians today nominal churches like what happens like like even just going back to the
00:36:55.220oh we want to be like the first century we want to be like the early church like do you actually
00:37:00.000understand because like one of the big larps is like if we just larp is persecuted christians0.86
00:37:04.960that's then everything will be okay then we'll only have real christians in the church then0.56
00:37:08.220we'll ensure it's only regenerate people inside the church but it's like you read the new testament
00:37:13.340and you read uh the early church fathers and all the problems that the church had in the first
00:37:18.920three or four hundred years right there were a lot of fake christians that you had to deal with
00:37:24.400you had all fake churches you had all sorts of heresies all sorts of problems going on
00:37:28.200it was not an easy time at all and so like persecution actually produces uh this pressure
00:37:34.800for people to have release valves to relieve that pressure and the release valve is heresy
00:37:40.460the release valve is false teaching the release valve is is lots of bad stuff and so this idea
00:37:47.720that like persecution is just the magic wand that makes everything great and brings out the true
00:37:52.120christians that's that's simply not true historically that's it's a fantasy that's a
00:37:57.720fantastic point because you think of like i mean we couldn't even figure out the hypostatic we
00:38:01.760didn't even know the god man and what how that's working out for i think it's like 400 years to
00:38:06.260figure that out yeah and so you've got all this heresy going on at the same time and and you're
00:38:11.120being fed the lions like that like this double whammy on both sides and then you think of like
00:38:15.380you know the persecuted church in china right so like so they're doctrinal bosses right i think i
00:38:20.820i think i have a solution i think i have a solution to make everybody happy we could we0.55
00:38:24.780could get we could persecute baptists and then they'd have their persecution and we'd have our
00:38:28.820christian nationalism that's a great idea that's we'll see you know the back we don't believe that
00:38:33.760that's the irony that the baptists are worried about that but it does sound like they kind of
00:38:38.080want that you know so the presbyterians could have their christendom and the baptists could
00:38:41.680have the persecution and regenerative church membership and everybody be happy but i would
00:38:46.340be really upset now here's the beautiful thing that i'm really i i actually you know you know
00:38:51.200speaking genuinely i'm really encouraged by is that um uh the rhetoric of of you know call it
00:38:57.440pietism and i'm trying to be fair i just don't know what else to call it i'm not trying to that
00:39:01.840i'm not trying to use uh hyperbole i i really do think it is a form of pietism um but the pietism
00:39:07.700that's coming out from some of the particular baptist uh groups and i'm saying particular
00:39:11.480reform baptist 1689 guys which i would be one of them i hold the 1689 um it's actually not i've
00:39:19.240been surprised but like these are guys faithful guys with a lot of esteem a lot of clout a lot
00:39:23.600of credibility that they earned right they deserve it um and yet their rhetoric is landing
00:39:29.020flat with a lot of people um yeah surprise and i'm talking about baptists again it's not just
00:39:34.540like the Presbyterians are like, there you go again. I'm cleaning up on YouTube and Twitter0.84
00:39:39.580and stuff and all glory to God, all the grace of God. But I mean, I'm getting a ton of followers
00:39:44.440and getting a ton of people emailing. I'm having to talk them off a ledge. They're like, I'm never
00:39:50.340going to give to G3 again. I canceled my tickets for the conferences. I'm like, you know what? I
00:39:55.600think they're still good guys. Let's give it time. Let's chill out. Let's have these discussions,
00:39:58.980you know blah blah blah um but my point is to say that um that yeah like you know the0.52
00:40:04.180the baptist wants to be persecuted and so why don't you let the presbyterian have his chrysidom
00:40:08.580and he can persecute the baptist but ironically and this is a grace from god the the majority of
00:40:14.840baptists in the pews uh don't agree with some of the you know these baptists in the pulpits they're
00:40:20.480like yeah chrysidom christian culture sounds great christian national yeah i'm a christian
00:40:24.000nationalist you know and and they want to go for it and for them now sure it's fine to say well0.91
00:40:28.360they're theologically you know ignorant or they don't understand the inner workings of blah blah0.90
00:40:32.140blah um yeah but but at the same time instead of being so disparaging i think like we should also0.97
00:40:37.540acknowledge um the the average baptist in the pew the appeal of christian nationalism to them is
00:40:43.680not just that they're neanderthals and don't understand theology um it's because they genuinely
00:40:48.400love the lord jesus and and just simply want to obey him in every realm of life and that's and
00:40:53.980and that is i think at its heart that is christian nationalism and guys will say that's the
00:40:58.120Motten Bailey, there's the bait and switch, you know, like, um, no, no, but that, what does
00:41:02.680obedience look like? And I think a lot of guys have not ever had to contemplate it. And that's
00:41:07.420where it goes back to the eschatological issue. A lot of guys have never contemplated what it
00:41:12.400would look like, what, what we, what, what, uh, things we'd have to practically figure out in
00:41:18.120terms of obedience in every sphere. If we ever won, they've never had to think about that because
00:41:23.320they, they, they're, they're convinced that we never will win their eschatology plays a point
00:41:27.440that but what do you seriously what do you do if 70 and i thought i thought you know james white
00:41:31.300did a good a good job on that particular tweet where he said like what do you do if you know
00:41:35.60070 of the nation is regenerate like what kind of laws do you write what kind of like you know you
00:41:42.120know what i mean like and i think most baptists you know have been able to go you know in this
00:41:46.960last 150 years have been able to live their entire life and never have to contemplate that question
00:41:51.320because it's for them it's it's a foregone conclusion it'll never happen yeah it's like
00:41:55.840being a fan of the detroit lions and thinking about the super bowl like like what uh you know
00:42:01.960i would never really thought about it before you know or like a dog chasing a car you know like i
00:42:06.440what do i do if i catch one uh but that's that's that's really like the attitude right is well
00:42:12.020we're just never gonna win we're doomed to fail like that's in the background and and so um but
00:42:17.140i think like a vision the thing that's attractive to people is a vision of of success like you may
00:42:23.720what if what if you're not doomed to fail what if a nation can be evangelized what if what if
00:42:30.580that can happen what if it can happen quickly um i mean you you see this like i mean one of the
00:42:35.180things that i you brought up in in my article um my last article was like you see this in the bible
00:42:41.780and some of it is like just this covenantalism right that we talked about earlier in in that
00:42:47.240And like, it's, this is like nails on the chalkboard for a lot of Baptists, but like people where we aren't individual solitary human beings that are totally on islands and tabula rasa.
00:43:00.120Like we've talked about this with, with cultural stuff that you aren't just, you're, you're not just like Neo in the matrix where you just plug something into your neck and that's either the Bible or like secular culture.
00:43:11.200And then you just download that into your brain.
00:43:41.660and he didn't say you know he didn't make a decree now only do this if you mean it uh he made the
00:43:47.580entire city fast and what did god do god didn't say well they really believed it so i'm gonna
00:43:54.600spare them it's like no they they they did this performative thing and i'm going to spare them
00:44:01.320because of it and so is every single ninevite there regenerate and and saved and believing
00:44:06.500no um were there maybe that were maybe we don't know for sure the men of Nineveh yes he doesn't
00:44:14.440say some of them but the men of Nineveh will rise up and judge they'll be on my side generation and
00:44:20.080judge this generation of Israel and like yeah I don't know I want to make a great point uh great
00:44:26.700point I want to jump in here in defense of Baptists a little bit um uh I don't think that uh this0.78
00:44:33.520comes out of, I think some of the rhetoric, some of the problems and the skepticism comes from the
00:44:38.680historical development of things, but I don't think it's necessitated by 1689 federalism or
00:44:45.600something like that. I think actually baptism, Baptist theology as an American phenomenon
00:44:52.120is its own unique development. And it grew up in a cultural political context in which
00:45:01.780The secular narratives about the meaning of America had adopted liberal rhetoric about absolute individual freedom and universalism and universal rights and all that rhetoric that defines what I call the post-war American political myth.
00:45:16.920And I think American Baptist was kind of developed within that milieu. And so I don't think it's necessitated by 17th century Baptist literature. I think it's necessitated by just the political phenomenon of 20th century America.
00:45:34.800that's helpful right that's that's kind of my point so because like if you took if you took
00:45:39.560someone like like nehemiah cox and even like john owen and some of these other congregationalists
00:45:44.440who are pro pro cromwell i you can i will bet anyone you know thousands of dollars that they
00:45:51.980would not have said that the political society needed to be secular of course not john gill
00:45:57.980like i mean you read john gill and he talks of he talks about the civil magistrate yeah um and and
00:46:03.840it enforcing keeping uh the first table of the law not just in regards to love for neighbor but
00:46:09.320the first four of the commandments loving the lord um these these baptist guys were
00:46:13.760sabbatarian they thought that society should be sabbatarian i'm sabbatarian like so and and
00:46:18.440here's the thing it wasn't it wasn't a wrongful binding of the conscience because some of the
00:46:21.640baptists you know reformed baptist brothers you know will be like well you know the baptist has
00:46:25.140a strong understanding of the liberty of the conscience and this yeah amen um but within a
00:46:29.720context right in a context yeah but but here's it but here's the beauty of um like uh sabbath
00:46:35.820laws um the state uh can enforce and legislate a day of rest um but caesar can never legislate
00:46:43.700a day of worship so he can he can legislate the distractions and and blast blasphemy and and um
00:46:51.940perversions of of worship be removed but he can't make the heart of man worship so so to say that
00:46:59.100you know businesses are going to be closed on the lord's day you know except for act you know
00:47:03.840works of mercy and necessity like that's i mean that and and we're not talking about this uh
00:47:08.980hypothetical utopia we're talking about um our nation not that long ago yeah our nation not that
00:47:15.940long ago and i think we've just so quickly forgotten so if we don't but this is what i
00:47:19.820want to get to now so let's transfer over and maybe maybe we got like 15 20 minutes but this
00:47:23.660is really interesting that you guys have talked about i heard you that's why i invited you on the
00:47:27.080So if we don't get these things straight and we stick with just this kind of boomer con theology, you know, Baptist and some Presbyterians alike, and we keep going down this road and, you know, in our political, you know, system, as we know, it continues to fall apart because of all the pagans and then Christians being pietists and not really, you know, dealing with it.
00:47:51.960Well, I don't think it's kind of like an if we go down this path. I think it's kind of already baked into the cake. And I think what you're referring to is the phenomenon of what's called Caesarism.
00:48:04.100that's right yeah right talk to me about that caesarism um was kind of foreseen because
00:48:09.700democracy as like this um you know this this zeitgeist of like democracy where all the old
00:48:15.820monarchies of europe had to transition and become more of a you know people's republics right that
00:48:21.340was kind of like the phenomenon that was happening a lot of conservatives in the uh 18th and 19th
00:48:27.420century were saying that democracy can't sustain itself and eventually it was gonna um since there
00:48:33.140was no since there was no one binding the nation together and focusing it on some sort of collective
00:48:38.700will what was going to happen is you were going to have this like cultural anarchy where everyone
00:48:43.440was going their own way nobody belonged to the nation nobody belonged to each other there was no
00:48:48.720roots or no coincidence of will or coincidence of of culture and that you were going to have
00:48:54.940someone that kind of came into power as sort of a hero and he kind of absorbed all that he became
00:49:00.580the representative of the people. He became the embodiment of the national will. And that was
00:49:04.760called Caesarism. And the first modern Caesarist was Napoleon Bonaparte. I almost said Napoleon
00:49:10.860dynamite, but Napoleon Bonaparte. But yeah, so anyways, but so Napoleon Bonaparte, he was kind
00:49:18.160of seen as, so after the French revolution, right, their whole objective was to tear down
00:49:22.320the ancient regime, the Ancien regime, their whole, their whole, the whole objective was to
00:49:27.700tear down this, you know, thousand years of Christendom and create this, you know, individualistic,
00:49:34.180universalistic, utopian society. And in the early years of the French Revolution, Napoleon was pro
00:49:40.500French Revolution. He was pro all of this stuff. And then he realized what was happening was
00:49:44.500complete chaos. And so he swept in, took control and said, I am the state. Like, like that was his,
00:49:51.600that was his phrase. He said, what is a throne? Because the monarchies used to embody France.
00:49:55.560they were the embodiment of friend the monarchy was the embodiment of the of the french people
00:49:59.960and he said what is the throne but but a wooden chair i am the state i am the embodiment of the
00:50:05.220people's will and he became the first modern caesar because when you had these organic i am
00:50:10.960the science well actually i mean yeah i mean exactly well that's a microcosm example but
00:50:17.620that's it seems like that it's the same kind of sentiment of like i am science it doesn't matter
00:50:22.260We used to have like all these different individuals and collective and we would debate it together.
00:50:27.340But now there's one voice and I am it.
00:50:30.660But I mean, this is this is what happens when there's no direction, when there's no people like the U.S. federal government does not actually represent the people.
00:50:38.560It's just a big bureaucracy, just a big administrative state that had kind of functions in its own in its own like like a silo.
00:50:46.600Right. It doesn't care about the interests of the people, their culture, their history.
00:50:49.380It's only working directly for its own interests.
00:50:52.260right and what's going to happen is you're going to have somebody that comes and embodies the will
00:50:56.320of the people and the will of the people right now is extremely ticked off and the caesar is not
00:51:00.660going to be nice that's just what happened right so i agree with all that here's a question is a
00:51:04.460genuine question question because i just want to understand at the time in france was there uh was
00:51:09.900there a unity with the will of the people so we've got this whole bureaucracy that doesn't actually
00:51:13.700represent us but the people were they united because the one thing that that i struggle with
00:51:18.300with that scenario playing out in america is i think we have two very very opposing wills of the0.99
00:51:25.420people you know i mean one one is um that they want to cut off the penises of little boys and0.97
00:51:32.160murder babies in the womb and then the other will the people is not even necessarily distinctly0.99
00:51:37.200christian right we want it to be that again but it's like i want to be able to work a job be left
00:51:41.580alone be able to own a home uh have single income uh be able to have kids and not be afraid you know
00:51:47.540you know that we're going to be uh you know slaughtered in the street right i think like
00:51:52.640you know what i mean but my point is like we're so divided as a nation we don't have a singular
00:51:56.780political will well as a nation so what guy that like i think that's what we keep going back to
00:52:03.820trump was kind of like that guy but only for 50 of the nation i don't know what i mean i don't
00:52:09.460think the first i don't think the first category is a is a will of the people i think it's completely
00:52:14.160orchestrated elite and it's propagated in front of all of us into the major institutions i don't
00:52:19.640think it's the will of the people at all so you think that that's actually a small minority yeah
00:52:24.840but that's being and i'm not even like half the country yeah and i'm not even saying i trust the
00:52:29.500people i'm not really a populist you know i'm kind of um i'm kind of suspicious of the will
00:52:33.940of the masses you know so um i i do i do have sort of an aristocratic elitist mind uh set not
00:52:40.500that i am an aristocrat or elite but i do i don't trust the masses um i do i do think that a healthy
00:52:46.140society has leaders and it has representatives that shape the will of the people but in a caesar
00:52:52.800situation in which there's just complete democratic chaos and nobody gets along with anybody you are
00:52:58.320going to have someone that comes in and claims to be you know he may not necessarily accurately
00:53:02.440represent the will of the people like i think if you had someone like um like a like a like a putin
00:53:08.160or some some sort of strong man like um like like something like take someone like um like or like
00:53:13.520victor orban in hungary i don't think he's a caesarist but i think he does accurately represent
00:53:18.520the will of the people you know but i don't think our season would be that for us i don't just
00:53:23.420playing the speculation game for a moment like who like who would be someone like that he doesn't
00:53:28.120exist yet yeah or he yeah he listened kind of was but i feel like he's so lost touch with his base
00:53:34.120you know like he's still defending the goodness of warp speed vaccine and stuff like that it's
00:53:37.980like dude i don't i don't think he's really on the political scene yet or at least he hasn't
00:53:42.780taken on those characteristics where do you think he'll come from do you think he'll be a pastor
00:53:46.900do you think he'll be like no i don't think so i i disagree with cj in that but we'll go ahead cj
00:53:52.980yeah i don't i don't think he'll be i don't really think he'll be a christian i think he'll
00:53:56.520be a like a right really like a strong right i think he'll use christianity um to appeal to the
00:54:02.620people but i don't think he'll be like an evangelical or anything like that i think
00:54:49.780Yeah. I think I agree with CJ in the sense that conservative evangelicalism is not
00:54:58.880the kind of seed bed that a Caesar would grow out of at least in current year in 2023.
00:55:06.540I mean, just just looking at the controversy of this week and the reaction and everything like they're not ready for a Caesar yet if they can't look at voting data and demographics subjectively.
00:55:18.480Right. And they lose their minds over it. So like they're they're not ready for it yet.
00:55:23.320But I think things could change rather quickly. I think Trump like just just in terms of like discussions like this one that we're having over political theology would probably not be possible before 2016.
00:55:36.540uh some of that is because of the situation of negative world uh some of that is because trump
00:55:41.620won and was a was a you know a sulla figure maybe or or you know a proto-caesar um certainly this
00:55:49.860kind of like popular tribune uh that that um identified with his people i mean it could be
00:55:55.100it could be a guy like rfk like he just announced for the presidency and it has very has a very
00:56:00.160appealing message to a lot of people um but ultimately like i think some of it is like you
00:56:05.900we live in a mass media age and so without a doubt it absolutely has to be someone that
00:56:13.500oozes charisma and yeah in fact like yeah yeah let me just say funny he has to be funny and likable
00:56:21.500uh yeah that's well let me let me just say this uh the idea of caesarism as a phenomenon was
00:56:27.320really coined by max veber who is a sociologist and he wrote about it in his book or his like
00:56:33.020monograph uh called charisma so if okay really yeah if you want to learn more about caesarism
00:56:38.500max veber is the guy and his essay is called uh charisma i think it's just called charisma yeah
00:56:43.160okay but that that's and so like i brought um i brought up mark driscoll in that context
00:56:48.860because here's this guy who um i remember listening when i was in college you know
00:56:56.260watching his sermons listening to college for me and i loved i loved it he was awesome i i loved
00:57:02.100it too and i remember him talking about like he learned to preach not by going to seminary and
00:57:06.800going to a homiletics class but by watching and studying chris rock and it's like whoa i remember
00:57:13.480that yeah you're right those are the most skilled preachers in our day that are able to convey
00:57:18.540points by by being funny and and making it humorous and and things like that so um and that's what he
00:57:25.780did like that's his sermons were all all like that like there there was some i they were hilarious
00:57:30.720many of them and and you could just you're like man i'd like to hang out with that guy
00:57:35.440uh that's how you felt and so um a caesar is going to be like like that like that's why trump
00:57:40.560is so loved by people even though like yeah there's there's tons of stuff about him that
00:57:45.640is awful and and terrible and i hate um just even even in like his presidency even though i supported
00:57:52.400him like hardcore like you know majorly backed up like and when people especially before he's
00:57:58.840going to win everything i was like no i he's the guy he's great uh and so it cost me a lot to
00:58:05.120support him and so i was behind him i'm not criticizing him from the like other people do
00:58:09.460i'm criticizing him from the perspective of a supporter uh but he was likable like i would i
00:58:15.100would talk to people that are not were never really into politics kind of normies you know
00:58:19.560and they'd they'd say you know we'd talk about politics buddies of mine i'm like well why do
00:58:24.540you why do you like trump and they're like like to a man every single one of them be like he is so
00:58:30.120funny like it's like i turn on the tv and everything he says is hilarious um and that's
00:58:37.240that's the reality so he's gonna have to be someone that um on television in video on the
00:58:44.020internet like it's just is popular funny like trump was hilarious on twitter uh that's part
00:58:49.940of it as well um he was able to effectively use social media um and so it it would have to be
00:58:56.180you know someone like that so that's why i'm like what could be a guy like mark driscoll like if
00:58:59.580mark driscoll started to you know uh read about the friend enemy distinction and become extremely
00:59:04.660right wing maybe um i don't know but like something like that like that's i mean that's part of like
00:59:10.740the whole driscoll thing we covered this before like you know there were there problems with him
00:59:14.940and things like that yeah i think so um there were there were ways that he sinned in his church
00:59:19.720for sure but um and eric brought this up like the reason he had to go down is because he was not a
00:59:27.880squishy big eva guy right um and so imagine if he hadn't gone down thing is that i think mark
00:59:33.380had problems i was ax 29 pastor so i was i was okay you know part of some of those like i think
00:59:37.680mark had problems um there are way bigger problems with chandler than there were with mark oh yeah
00:59:43.180chandler's woke wokeism stuff are you are you kidding me i pulled my church out of acts 29
00:59:48.200in 2018 when eric mason who at the time was on the international board for acts 29 wrote woke
00:59:54.160church talking about white spaces and colored spaces at the lord's table like and he's and
00:59:59.740and they're buds and and there was chandler just doubled down on on wokeism and you know the whole
01:00:05.300like anglo six versus or seven versus uh you know african-american six that rhetoric you know the
01:00:12.660white privilege kind of stuff all that kind of stuff that um so like driscoll wasn't a heretic
01:00:19.520you got to give him that you know and so like i mean there were certain things like i mean i think
01:00:24.440he could have brushed up on some of his doctrine don't get me wrong um and maybe certain things in
01:00:29.020terms of his style and and a lot of a lot of the things that would have actually been like
01:00:33.520objectively damning for driscoll i can't speak to because i wasn't there um it was a lot of the
01:00:40.320behind the scenes kind of stuff like did like did you i would have to definitively like did you or
01:00:45.320did you not curse out someone in pastor uh pastoral counseling because a lot of the public
01:00:49.500stuff from the pulpit and those kinds of things um you can disagree with it and you can even say
01:00:54.060it's sinful but it wasn't disqualifying not from the pulpit the closest you could get to that that
01:00:58.840in terms of his like public um rhetoric would be actually in terms of written form under the
01:01:05.440pseudonym of william wallace the second some of the things that he said about women and then you
01:01:09.720know in terms of only like verified you know um big you know actions you know in terms of like
01:01:15.500plagiarism or using church funds uh for the but even the church fund thing it's like okay other
01:01:21.320people made that decision it's not you know like um he made the decision too but there was a
01:01:25.760collective you can argue about how that's bad church polity this um this kind of like elite
01:01:30.280you know they he didn't have a true plurality of elders you know but neither do presbyterians you
01:01:35.520You know, so like so I, you know, I, you know, all that being said, my point is just like he, you know, you know, and then if you're using the funds because you're going to buy books for the use of the church so that the book, you know, you know, rises through through the ranks of the New York Times bestseller so that more people read it so that they have better, more Christian marriages.
01:01:52.320Like, you know, so anyway, and I'm not saying there aren't problems with that and ethics involved, but in terms of like clear cut, disqualifying rhetoric, I can make a much more definitive.
01:02:02.360I'm not saying Driscoll is the best guy in the world.
01:02:04.200what i'm saying though is i can make a much clear definitive case for the disqualification of matt
01:02:09.340chandler than mark driscoll yeah yeah absolutely and so like but imagine if like driscoll was still
01:02:15.560on top like none of that had happened they hadn't you know taken him down and he was still on top
01:02:20.400from what did it happen like 2013 2014 something like that um and so all of the trump years and
01:02:26.280everything he's still at mars hill and still prom a prominent voice um and he's prominent in like
01:02:34.320the big eva circles uh it wouldn't have gone as woke as it did like it couldn't it couldn't have
01:02:40.120right if he was there and chandler wouldn't have been able to do the stuff that he did and eric
01:02:44.660mason wouldn't have been able to do the stuff that he did so like all like there's a trickle
01:02:48.040down effect of him getting you know knocked off of the as king of the hill right and all these
01:02:53.840other guys sweep in and go mega woke like that that has that is an effect and so i mean i look
01:03:00.140at it like yeah see you know he's kind of on this redemption path right and coming back into
01:03:05.360prominence again um i mean i saw like jordan peterson's daughter is is attending his church
01:03:11.200and and that's that's rather interesting yeah yeah michaela peterson's going there and and like
01:03:16.340um you know tweeted about it or something like that uh so you think about those things um
01:03:23.220But he he has an effect and he has. And so if he's drawing like millions of people that are listening to him again and things like this, like that, that's not something they're going to be able to avoid.
01:03:37.260And that's going to have, like, he's going to be, I almost said bulwark. He is going to be someone that Big Eva will have to contend with. And so that's where I mean, in the context of the Caesarism discussion, and I think that's how we got started down that road.0.69
01:03:56.540I think like a guy like that can shift the needle majorly, even though evangelicalism as a whole is not ready for it yet.
01:04:07.040But if all it takes is one leader who is fearless and is willing to tell the truth about things that everybody else lies about.
01:04:16.020And so if you have that, then things can change really quick.
01:04:21.980And so if he wants to be that guy, especially like our whole society is built on lies about everything.
01:04:27.220And so if he starts telling, and he, and he's a guy who has shown, has demonstrated over the last 20 years that he's perfectly willing to tell the truth about things that everybody else lies about.
01:04:38.540So, so when I bring it up, him up in that context, I'm not, I'm not just like, Oh, I hope it's him.
01:04:43.620it's more like like the conditions for the kind of you know caesar in in the modern age um are
01:04:51.580there because it's not going to be you know normally you would be like well it's going to0.99
01:04:55.080be some like general or something it would be some military figure but like the amer like that's out
01:04:59.600of that's not going to happen like look i mean look at my generals dog uh general milley uh i
01:05:06.380mean general milley just looks like he got out of the old country buffet uh lloyd austin as well
01:05:11.400like i mean they're all and half of them are women you know it's like you're like the u.s
01:05:16.340military today like anyone who has been an officer in the military has had a long career
01:05:20.260uh will tell you like it's designed against having a coup like if you want to be a colonel or above0.94
01:05:27.460you have to completely submit to the whole you know globo homo agenda from day one or you're0.98
01:05:34.400never going to rise through the ranks like the whole pentagon is that way some of them maybe0.96
01:05:37.740slipped through the cracks like you have like the one that worked in trump his administration
01:05:41.540briefly uh uh kind of a strange guy uh i can't uh michael uh something like he he made it through
01:05:49.620the ranks but he's he's he's like a vietnam vet like he's an older older guy um like today that's
01:05:55.180not going to happen like you're not going to get a military figure like a douglas mccarthur
01:05:58.660um in there that's that's going to you know be a threat to the regime so it's going to have to
01:06:03.520somewhere else be it or is he just not he doesn't have the um that he's he doesn't know how to talk
01:06:08.580i don't you know i don't like i don't think i don't think elon has like um the personality
01:06:14.320no it's not the personality i don't i think it's that the will to think politically i think he's
01:06:19.940he's so restrained in terms of like economic functionality that i don't think he can think
01:06:24.500in terms of like higher things i think he's he's strictly like an economic machiavellian you have
01:06:30.260to have someone who's very politically oriented and okay to wield power i don't think elon wants
01:06:35.160to wield power well i mean he i mean he did a little bit with the whole twitter thing but
01:06:39.500you're right like i mean even the i remember the tweet where he said i'm voting republican for the
01:06:44.520first time in my life because uh i always voted democrat because i thought they were the party of
01:06:49.760kindness and tolerance i remember seeing that and this is like less than two years ago kindness
01:06:54.220and tolerance i thought like and i and i looked like i i like googled it like how old is elon
01:07:00.260i thought like how many years like how many times has he gone around the sun
01:07:04.500thinking that democrats are the party of kindness and tolerance and i was like he's building rocket0.99
01:07:09.240ships how does this happen you know what i mean like how how can you be so dumb and so smart at0.97
01:07:13.760the same time and it's just you know different interests but but but he just doesn't well okay0.55
01:07:20.300yeah so maybe it's like a slow play so yeah but but if that is sincere uh to to express that level
01:07:27.420of political ignorance shows that there's just very little interest because we know that he has
01:07:32.320the intellect to understand something if he cared so that makes him seem like he's not a candidate
01:07:36.820just affirming your point i also think that there's a place for someone like um like like
01:07:41.720stalin so stalin the way he got into power and he was not he was not at all like um like a like
01:07:48.100a disciple of of lenin as it turns out he was a party man he played himself cool he you know he
01:07:54.260rose through the wings kind of in the background like trotsky was on the forefront of like the
01:07:58.340revolutionary power and he was always like a labor man he was like writing and on the forefront
01:08:03.220his agenda was just out in the open stalin was just behind the scenes keeping quiet nobody knew
01:08:07.780what he thought or even who he was really he was just kind of a player until like right at the very
01:08:12.820end he like succeeded lenin like in a surprise happenstance and suddenly like the entire like
01:08:19.300leninist movement had turned stalinist in a completely different redirection so it could
01:08:23.700could be someone like that it doesn't even have to be someone who's all the way he's out there
01:08:26.920right now like it could be someone who's behind the backgrounds keeping themselves and their agenda
01:08:31.240like on the down low that like there's a there's a considerable amount of right-wing anonymous
01:08:37.520players within strategic places in society that don't even vocalize what they believe but they
01:08:43.020are in positions uh i don't like it's not it's not ready yet but i could see someone kind of in
01:08:49.080that position ready to seize power like immediately like that nobody even sees it coming so that's
01:08:54.860another aspect of it's fascinating and just let the listener understand we're not saying and this
01:08:59.500is the biblical model and this is what we're hoping for and this is like we're not saying that
01:09:03.460um but we're just saying that like yeah when when christians when christians become pietist and and0.71
01:09:10.160throw in you know the towel and hand things over to paganism because secularism is just a place0.93
01:09:15.880older secularism is not a viable worldview i i describe it it's a parasite you have host and you
01:09:22.360know the one true and definitely eternally viable host is the christian you know the christian faith
01:09:26.460the christian worldview but there are other hosts that are have viability not to the same degree
01:09:31.060but that are viable for 500 years you know even 5 000 years like one and the most viable host
01:09:37.320other than christian faith would be christian heresies right not just not just paganism but
01:09:41.840like islam uh judaism which is a christian heresy um you know because it's not just the old testament0.88
01:09:46.740minus the news the town you guys know these things you know it's a perversion and so um judaism and0.99
01:09:51.220islam i think are like these are going to be long standing you know world views because they have so1.00
01:09:56.320much viability because they are their tweaks and perversions of the christian faith you know which0.86
01:10:01.180is christ's principles which work god made the world he knows how it works his principles are
01:10:05.560successful and and viable um and then there's paganism which is you know not like islam or
01:10:11.160judaism but like norse mythology or things like that the old gods the rise of the old gods which
01:10:16.180i think is where the west is headed um and paganism is also more viable i would consider it a host
01:10:22.420it's not a parasite it is a host um but it's like there's christianity that's your best host then
01:10:27.640there's christian heresies islam judaism that's the second best host like the second tier host
01:10:31.960and then third tier host would be like paganism um but then secularism it doesn't even make the0.99
01:10:36.500host classification it's it's a it's a parasite and and it's a parasite that has looked like a0.67
01:10:41.840viable host one of the most viable hosts in all of human history because it attached itself to the
01:10:46.520most vi the truly most viable host which is chrysidom and so it's been feeding off of chrysidom
01:10:51.860you know ever since the enlightenment you can argue earlier you could argue later you know and
01:10:55.100picking up steam along the way but um but the problem with parasites is eventually they kill
01:10:59.240the host and and seal their own doom they die as well so uh secularism is not going to be what0.53
01:11:03.920replaces christianity secularism will be what kills christianity and itself it will implode
01:11:09.040and paganism will likely take the place so what all that being said back to the listener we're
01:11:13.700not saying these are the things we're hoping for we're saying but this is what we're observing if
01:11:18.100we don't repent if we don't take a stand if we don't and out of that kind of of context that
01:11:23.940kind of environment and culture of paganism replacing christianism and uh like then yeah
01:11:29.920like some kind of some guy who speaks with like with religious rhetoric you know and is a staunch
01:11:37.160defender of the family and normative like natural values that um and and he like yeah that guy could
01:11:44.580could be king he could be king you know and and that is entirely possible because that's how much
01:11:50.340um it's biblical no because that's how much we've lost our minds like it's it's very unusual well
01:11:56.460And I would argue – you bring up that paganism will return. I haven't listened to that theology podcast episode yet.
01:12:08.200But – so I'm not going to disagree with them without listening.
01:12:10.400I thought it before I even heard that, but yeah, but go ahead.
01:12:12.460Yeah. I don't think so. I think Jesus conquered the principalities and powers and the elemental principles of the world, which is what the old covenant world was.
01:12:24.540all the demons that ruled over all these nations um and and everywhere the gospel is gone like
01:12:30.420those those um gods fall uh and i don't think they come back even though you are there demons
01:12:36.900in the world and and so forth yes um i i think that um what is replacing it what the replacement
01:12:45.460here is like wokeness is a christian heresy right wokeness is is this kind of uh puritanism
01:12:53.620without jesus and without any hope of salvation without any hope of redemption um and so it it's
01:13:00.600taken on like this religious fervor this religious zealotry um and it's it's it it is this like
01:13:07.080replacement religion really uh for these people and i and i don't so i don't think that um yeah
01:13:12.360you see it a little bit like these like pagan norse larpers and people that wear like thor
01:13:17.020you know necklaces and things like that you see that a little bit um but i don't think that it i
01:13:22.200I mean some of that is based around like far-right politics too and people wanting to get into like white identity and going back to the old gods.
01:13:40.560My thought is just like can principalities – so yes, the strongman has been bound and we're now plundering the house and we're sitting currently in human history of 2,000 years of plundering.
01:13:50.500and so there's a lot of things you know a lot of demonic activity has been silenced and bound like
01:13:55.300jesus is casting out devils all the time we're like you know let's get back to the early book
01:13:58.980of acts let's do the same thing well they're just israel had a lot of devils yeah right like israel
01:14:04.120had a lot of devils like we're talking about you know we're talking about a group of people in a
01:14:09.620society that um that for hundreds of years had had had had been steeped in unbelief that rebelling
01:14:15.800against Yahweh. And ultimately he came to his own and they received him not. And so there was a lot
01:14:22.320of devils to cast out. And so I do believe that progressively throughout human history, there are
01:14:26.960less and less devils. The strong man, Satan has been bound and his minions are being subdued by
01:14:31.900Christ's body, which is the church in the world. But I guess my thought is if there are any devils
01:14:37.220left, can devils move? So my thought is like if Zambia and Uganda, right, if Africa knows that0.63
01:14:45.700a man is a man and a woman is a woman and chrysidom takes root in africa and certain
01:14:50.220parts of asia and these kinds of things you know in south america um and they come out of paganism
01:14:55.920um do the gods do the do the old gods pagan gods die or do they move to the west right do they
01:15:04.300find the house swept clean and put in order and come back you know and and you see what i'm saying
01:15:08.660because chrysidom christ what he does is is he the christian god right i i like the you know
01:15:14.620the the illustration of uh the hulk you know like like grabbing load key and slamming that
01:15:19.980puny god like the christian god does not play jesus does not play well with with other gods
01:15:25.700he doesn't share um and so uh and so what jesus does is the first thing he does is he moves into
01:15:31.360a house and he empties it um and kicks out all puny gods um and then he sweeps it clean and0.89
01:15:36.840puts it in order and that's like back to the the padaya you know like uh the the curriculum and0.99
01:15:41.140the culture even like that the ocean was swimming in um christianity chrysidom and so jesus like he
01:15:48.120he empties he first removes false gods because he will not share um his glory with another so he
01:15:54.560empties the house and and you can do this with individuals but you can do it with with nations0.83
01:15:59.040and so he empties the house but then he also puts it into order and that's what chrysidom
01:16:03.340for 500 years uh jesus thinking christian thought put it in order but then the problem is if you
01:16:09.440then kick out jesus the god who emptied the house in the first place and put it all in order but
01:16:14.140then you say hey thanks for cleaning up around here um you know see you later uh then you know
01:16:20.400then i think in some ways you've set the stage um for for not only for false gods to come back
01:16:27.180but for false gods to come back and then have access to an ordered house to do even greater
01:16:33.100greater damage like paganism with technology that came from christianity and christian thought you
01:16:39.200know and like and so there's i don't know i i'm not hanging my hat here saying this is my you know
01:16:44.040forever official position but it's interesting to think about absolutely you know where we're at go
01:16:49.040go ahead back to you guys sorry and is and is wokeness i mean is is is wokeness demonic like
01:16:54.200i i use that phrase a lot and i'm because i mean it is it a demonic ideology yeah i think so i mean
01:17:00.020all false false uh you know christian heresies are are demonic uh in in their nature so you know
01:17:09.180is the house swept clean and then demons uh come back um i i think so like i mean what is
01:17:15.340like when i say that abortion is um a sacrament to to these people like actual blood of babies
01:17:24.700is being poured out on the ground like it's a ritual right like that's that's that's really
01:17:28.880happening and we should look like we should read the book of leviticus and see that like the this
01:17:35.720mirror image of it is is happening in our own society that that's that's very real or like
01:17:41.860when you read oh go ahead i was i was just gonna because that's my point is the casting out is not
01:17:46.100destroying we know there's an appointed time for these demons to actually be destroyed in the lake
01:17:50.580of fire um but jesus goes to israel he's casting them out they're going somewhere and that's back
01:17:55.720to the text you know of you know when a demon is cast out it goes through it's not when he cat he's
01:18:00.420cast out he dies it's um or he's destroyed or he goes to the lake of fire when he's cast out he
01:18:04.920goes through arid places waterless places like um and so i'm getting a little you know like haunted
01:18:09.980cosmos here you know which which i love by the way but like but just thinking you know it's awesome
01:18:14.400but i'm just saying like did did these did these pagan gods um yes christ is king he's progressively
01:18:20.820his kingdom is growing but there are dips the trajectory for the post mill guy is up but there
01:18:25.140are dips along the way and some of them could be deep deep dips and during one of those dips
01:18:29.460the demons that were removed because of chrysidom they weren't killed they went somewhere and can
01:18:35.420they come back for a season to be removed again you know but um i that's just a question i have
01:18:41.420even within a post-millennial framework yeah i agree that's a good cj any any thoughts from you
01:18:47.340you've been very patient no well talk about i have a i have a more of a classical email perspective
01:18:54.360So I actually do believe that over time, it was the function and role of Christendom to silence the old gods.
01:19:02.180But I do believe that they're going to make a last stand.
01:19:04.340So I do. I mean, that's my take is over history, you know, Christ conquers the earth and Christendom is the like the expression, the embodiment of that conquering.
01:19:14.740But at the end, there is a last stand and Christ comes back and sends them away forever until, you know, to eternal torment.
01:19:22.180So I do think that there is a last stand, and I think we do see over the ebb and flow of history sort of the reverberance of these themes coming back and the ritualistic expression of these old – the influence of these old gods.
01:19:39.500So it sounds like we're right on board.
01:19:40.860We have different ways of articulating, but you're right, like that our eschatological persuasions both accommodate that very real possibility.
01:19:47.840because it's just like it's i just get tired of hearing like it's just a joke we're just joking
01:19:53.000we're just joking about the same say you know satanic grammys we're just joking about like
01:19:57.340i i don't it's gotten to a point with like with leaders and whether it be you know the the global
01:20:03.680you know economic forum you know or like whether it's the george soros type or whether it's the
01:20:07.960you know the hollywood you know realm but like there's just too many like verified testimonies
01:20:14.360and examples going for decades now and only ramping up for me to think that it's just we're
01:20:18.980really just joking that it's a joke i'm like i think you guys love the devil i think yeah i think
01:20:23.440all i think all cultures are are manifestations of of spiritual struggle so yeah i think i think
01:20:29.520every culture is is the reflection of the uh the conflict between angels and demons like basically
01:20:36.600like that so i i think yeah those that's they're joking but they're also bragging and mocking about
01:20:41.960their um occupation right of the american culture right yeah right they may be joking but i i don't
01:20:48.460think satan's joking there's there's actually a really creepy oh man like there's actually you
01:20:53.040you would like this but there's actually a really there's actually a really creepy like uh not
01:20:57.140creepy but it's like a really neat way of expressing what's happening um and it was
01:21:02.760written by a catholic but he just talks about the fact that like everyone is looking at these
01:21:07.160forms of entertainment and they're looking at the way that we're amused by them um he
01:21:11.900calls them barbarians. And he basically says that like modern man is looking at the barbarian and
01:21:17.620watching him, we're tolerating him and we're not really afraid. And then he says, we're tickled0.81
01:21:21.920by the barbarians irreverence, his comic inversion of our old certitudes and our fixed creeds
01:21:27.520refreshes us. And we laugh. And then he says, but as we laugh, we are watched by large and
01:21:32.940awful faces from beyond. And on those faces, there is no smile. So that's my view. I mean,
01:21:40.280it's creepy i mean it's that's hilarious that's hilarious belloc by the way who's a roman catholic
01:21:45.960writer but still i i agree with that i think beyond the shadow of of the forms of entertainment
01:21:51.920that are before us are these unsmiling faces watching us you know dude as you literally as
01:21:57.380you're starting to talk about that all of a sudden like there's like thunder happening outside right
01:22:03.020now i don't know if you guys could hear it but like it was a clear sky and now like i'm hearing
01:22:06.440thunders on the cell so anyways i i need to um i need to be manly and go ahead and land the plane
01:22:12.240so that i can crawl under my covers oh jesus jesus blood um but yeah i no this is really
01:22:20.060really interesting i'd love to have you guys back on again in the future and uh i appreciate just
01:22:24.560um your work and and standing for the truth and um yeah and and just everybody listening again
01:22:31.320And we, I think of like Great Heart Pilgrim's Progress, you know, part two and like the
01:22:37.280corporate version, like the church, Great Heart could have made it to the celestial
01:22:40.860city in an afternoon, but the goal was that little faith would get there, you know, Mr.