The NXR Podcast - THEOLOGY APPLIED - The Watchers, The Nephilim, & Creatures Living Deep Inside The Earth ｜ with Ben Garrett

00:00:00.000 In less than a year, our podcast has gone from an average of 10,000 downloads a month

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00:00:23.480 five-star review on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks. Welcome back to another

00:00:29.100 episode of Theology Applied, I am your host, Pastor Joel Webbin with Right Response Ministries.

00:00:34.340 In this particular episode of Theology Applied, I am privileged to welcome to the show for

00:00:39.000 the first time, Ben Garrett.

00:00:41.060 Ben Garrett is the co-host, along with Brian Sauvé, of a popular new podcast called Haunted

00:00:47.160 Cosmos.

00:00:48.160 So in this episode of Theology Applied, Ben and I discuss the Watchers, their offspring,

00:00:53.220 the Nephilim, and what slash who is currently living under our feet deep within the earth

00:00:59.880 in the deep caverns.

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00:01:21.680 for a treat.

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00:04:38.860 Applying God's word to every aspect of life.

00:04:42.220 This is Theology Applied.

00:04:44.600 All right, welcome back to another episode of Theology Applied.

00:04:52.120 I am your host, Pastor Joel Webin with Right Response Ministries.

00:04:55.200 And in this particular episode, I'm very privileged to have joining us for the first time, Ben Garrett.

00:05:01.700 Ben, welcome to the show.

00:05:03.080 Hey, thanks for having me, Joel. Happy to be here.

00:05:05.480 Take just one second, Ben, and tell our listeners a little bit about you.

00:05:08.820 Some of them will probably recognize your voice, but not necessarily your face, because you guys in Ogden, Utah, you don't really do video, but you do audio really, really well.

00:05:18.380 So who are you?

00:05:19.600 How would our listeners probably know you best?

00:05:22.560 They'd probably know me best from from Haunted Cosmos, this podcast that my my friend and pastor Brian Sovey do together.

00:05:30.060 But I'm a deacon at Refuge Church, which is our church in Ogden, Utah.

00:05:34.840 I'm also on staff, actually, with New Christendom Press, which is our publishing house.

00:05:38.960 So I kind of split time between those two things and spend a lot of time researching really weird stuff online to talk about with Brian on Haunted Cosmos.

00:05:48.960 I'm a mechanical engineer by trade.

00:05:51.680 Felt a call to ministry about three years ago and have since been pursuing that along with this podcast game.

00:05:59.040 I'm married to a lovely wife.

00:06:00.780 We have two boys and, Lord willing, many more to come someday.

00:06:05.740 Great.

00:06:06.360 Well, thanks for coming on the show.

00:06:07.980 I'm a big fan of Haunted Cosmos.

00:06:09.740 I think you guys have done a great job.

00:06:12.380 I think I've told you this already offline, but I'm not quite as interested in the Mothman

00:06:16.920 episodes, which I know a lot of people like them.

00:06:19.100 I mean, I find it intriguing.

00:06:20.580 I find it intriguing.

00:06:22.500 And I think it's possible and I'm totally down for, you know, demons shape-shifting

00:06:26.180 and taking on the forms.

00:06:27.960 Whatever.

00:06:28.360 but uh man give me sea serpents or give me death right yeah i mean the great white shark plummeting

00:06:34.320 2 000 feet underneath the sea you know and the temperature rising from 40 something to 90 something

00:06:38.860 like that yeah that was so good and then i really loved the episode that you guys did probably at

00:06:45.280 this point i guess about a month ago because you guys do it once every two weeks yep uh but the

00:06:49.220 one where you talked about the watchers and the nephilim and i was hoping that you know we could

00:06:53.480 start there in our conversation today and then there's some other things you've got some theories

00:06:57.720 I've got some theories, you know, that we can just kind of bounce off of each other and talk

00:07:01.760 about all sorts of things. But starting with the Nephilim and the Watchers, can you help our

00:07:06.020 listeners understand a little bit, biblically speaking, who are the Watchers? Who are the

00:07:10.900 Nephilim? Yeah, no, that's great. This is one of my favorite topics, so I'm happy to start here. 1.00

00:07:16.780 The Watchers are a category of angelic beings, and we hear about them in the book of Daniel,

00:07:22.500 specifically Daniel 7. We're told that it's this group of angels that look down on the affairs of

00:07:28.860 men, and essentially they act as God's deacons on the world, and they ensure that the decree

00:07:35.740 is carried out. And so one example that we get, and it's not necessarily fact that these are

00:07:42.560 watchers that are discussed here, but they very well could be. Regardless, their function is

00:07:47.500 similar. But it says in Daniel, one of the angels comes to visit Daniel and give him prophecy. And

00:07:53.540 it says that he was resisted by the prince of Persia for 21 days. And then Michael came and

00:07:58.360 helped him defeat the prince of Persia. And the prince of Persia is an angel. It's a throne or a

00:08:05.020 power and principality that was resisting this other good angelic force seeking to do God's will.

00:08:12.020 And so we know that there's spiritual battle going on all the time and, and the watchers play a crucial role in that. And so where they get really popular is in Genesis six, where we have this event, the sons of God go into the daughters of men because they find them very lovely and they produce this offspring.

00:08:31.080 and it says that the offspring is called the Nephilim. It says the Nephilim were on the

00:08:36.340 earth in those days and also after. And so if you take the supernatural view, which is actually

00:08:43.680 the common view held throughout almost all of church history until about the 20th or 19th

00:08:48.820 century. Right. That's when they started doing the line of Seth. Yeah, exactly. That's when

00:08:52.940 we're sophisticated now. We don't believe those fairy tales. Although I guess Calvin was a Seth

00:08:59.480 guy so it was a little bit yeah there were some guys but it really became mainstream it was

00:09:04.540 something um i forget his name but yeah there were some old guys because i remember teaching

00:09:09.500 on it a while back and and i took the seth view because i was cool and yeah and now now i'd rather

00:09:14.640 have fun and yeah we have more fun no i i i do think that it's right though uh also i mean i

00:09:22.180 love my sethite guys right but uh but i think that they're wrong about this but anyway if you

00:09:26.720 take the supernatural view of Genesis 6, 1 through 4, then the most likely candidate for the sons of

00:09:34.560 God who fell are the watchers, this category of angelic beings called the watchers. And we're

00:09:39.820 informed by the first book of Enoch a little bit there, because that work is cited in Jude and

00:09:45.520 2 Peter. So that kind of helps us see how they were thinking through this issue. But then the

00:09:50.400 offspring that they produce with human women are the Nephilim. We believe that they're giants, 1.00

00:09:54.900 The Septuagint just very casually calls them giants in its rendering of Genesis 6-4.

00:10:01.540 And so we believe that angels fell.

00:10:05.220 They lusted after women. 0.60

00:10:06.780 They had this Nephilim offspring, and they were basically like half-human, supergiant, hyper-people, so to speak.

00:10:14.680 And so that's part of why the flood occurred is so that the massive corruption that they 1.00

00:10:19.860 helped induce on the earth would be curbed and retarded a little bit. 1.00

00:10:26.760 And that's, I think, and that's another reason why I think the, you know, the view of the 0.99

00:10:30.640 Nephilim actually being a hybrid of, you know, demonic human hybrid is important for theological

00:10:37.400 reasons.

00:10:38.080 One, because I think it's a plain reading of the text and we always want to take scripture

00:10:41.600 seriously.

00:10:42.320 um but two because it also helps um it helps to make sense of a global flood um because people

00:10:50.180 are bad today right like you know and yes we have god's promise you know he has set his bow in the

00:10:55.040 sky and so we have his promise to never flood the earth again um you know so his covenant i mean

00:11:02.660 that certainly matters the noate covenant um but i mean you look at what's going on in the world

00:11:07.540 today and you think well i mean all right so god said he wouldn't flood the earth but you know

00:11:11.800 could he destroy every living person another way you know and technically keep his covenant

00:11:16.820 because people seem really really bad and so when you look at the world and you look at you know and

00:11:21.220 you hold to the doctrine of total depravity and look at what's going on today and all these kinds

00:11:24.940 of things um you think like why isn't god just wiping everybody out now you know or or if you

00:11:31.680 take the other approach and you're like people aren't really that bad and i can't believe this

00:11:35.040 was really uh cruel on god's part that he would flood the whole earth you know there were there

00:11:39.540 were women and there were children and babies. But it really helps to make sense of how much

00:11:47.000 evil there really was when you think, no, no, no, we're not just talking about totally depraved

00:11:51.400 people. We're not just talking about bad people. We're not just talking about violent people and

00:11:56.040 warring people and raping and pillaging people. We're talking about demonic hybrids. We're talking 1.00

00:12:03.400 about half demon half man who are you know and going around and teaching people uh dark arts and 1.00

00:12:12.200 sorcery and all these you know and and that's that's part of why god's wiping things out because

00:12:18.480 people you know will look at genesis what is it 6 14 or 15 what is it uh it's six four okay i'm

00:12:25.120 thinking of the verse i think it's 15 but the verse that says uh that god looked you know and

00:12:29.200 all that the every intention of man was only ever evil continually yeah right and and we'll preach

00:12:36.400 that right a good paul washer sermon you know and i appreciate me some paul i don't know why you're

00:12:40.620 clapping yeah i'm talking about you exactly and so guys have used that you know and said this is

00:12:46.200 the picture of uh of not just them but but you and i agree i agree um in terms of the heart um

00:12:54.740 Now, not you being you and I, not those who are born again in Christ.

00:12:59.060 We're still sinners, but we're not totally depraved.

00:13:01.640 We actually have the spirit of God.

00:13:02.920 We have new hearts. 1.00

00:13:04.280 And so, but total depravity as it pertains to the unbeliever today in 2023, that is still 1.00

00:13:09.520 a theologically true statement. 1.00

00:13:10.940 Genesis 6, 15, every intention, every thought, only evil continually.

00:13:14.720 The difference though, in Genesis 6 before the flood is it wasn't just at the level of

00:13:19.380 the heart.

00:13:19.920 It wasn't just intent.

00:13:21.140 it was um because of what was going on with the nephro you have a you have a physical superiority

00:13:27.300 that allows for the intentions of the heart the evil on the inside to have far greater

00:13:33.920 manifestations outside does that make sense would you agree with that no that i think that makes

00:13:40.180 total sense the so that's part of what's going on and that's part of the you know the justification

00:13:44.040 not that god needs any if it was just people god would still be justified in destroying the wicked

00:13:47.840 because he does that in hell but but it does help you know more to understand like why why

00:13:52.960 wasn't there an attempt to just reform the world why why destroy the world by water well because

00:13:59.420 part of what you have running around is not just bad people but but bad half demon half man yeah

00:14:05.240 people and so that's yeah that's crazy so anyway so watchers nephilim go on you were you were

00:14:11.360 describing the was there more that you were going to say no i no i mean that's basically it the

00:14:17.180 The trouble that you run into with taking this view, and it comes from the Sethite view as well, no view is immune to this problem, is that it seems because of clear statements in Scripture, especially in Numbers and Deuteronomy, that there exists in the land of Canaan after the flood, it says descendants of the Nephilim.

00:14:39.740 Presumably, that's direct descendants of the Nephilim.

00:14:42.580 So to paint the picture really clearly, you have antediluvian world. Watchers come down because they're lusting after women. They have sex with them. They procreate and the Nephilim appear on the earth. You then have the flood that we would all agree wipes that out. 0.84

00:15:02.420 So there's total destruction. The Nephilim are done away with. And then after the flood, you somehow, some generations later, have this group of people that the Bible calls descendants of the Nephilim. 1.00

00:15:15.820 And so that's really where the fun starts. You know, you can talk about how the spirits of the Nephilim, the disembodied spirits of the Nephilim are what the Second Temple Jews would just assume were demons. 0.84

00:15:30.620 So the people that Christ were, or the things that Christ was casting out of these people in the land of Capernaum and Galilee were disembodied Nephilim spirits, demons. 0.55

00:15:43.720 But I think that the really interesting question is how did they come back, so to speak, or did they come back?

00:15:50.620 Is it some kind of like lesser version of the Nephilim, but we can still call them that. 0.96

00:15:55.680 And so that was one of the things that we were talking about before we started recording is what kind of theories are there that allow for the flood to occur, totally obliterate everything that's not on the ark, which, of course, we would all agree with. 0.98

00:16:09.500 And yet, somehow we have descendants of the Nephilim in the land that Israel has to go in and drive out after the flood. 0.98

00:16:18.580 That's where the real fun starts. 0.99

00:16:20.400 So one of the theories.

00:16:22.420 Yeah, let's talk about that.

00:16:23.000 Yeah, you go ahead and give a theory.

00:16:24.360 I'll give a theory.

00:16:24.960 Yeah, yeah. Let's ping pong theory. So the one that I currently hold to, but it is one that I hold pretty loosely, is that the syntax of Genesis 6-4 allows for there to be multiple events of this type. Before and after the flood, Genesis 6-4 gives freedom for it to be interpreted as angels falling, creating Nephilim with human women, both before and after the flood, multiple times.

00:16:52.660 So you could have literally just the same event happening throughout history before and after the flood. And that kind of lessens the punch of the flood in that regard. And it kind of says like, well, why the flood then? Why the flood? If it had anything to do with that, then why then if it was just going to happen again after? But let's hear your theory too.

00:17:17.180 yeah so and when ben says for the listener when he says multiple events the event you're talking

00:17:22.900 about is angels falling from heaven yes yes right so he's saying specifically falling from heaven

00:17:27.960 to interbreed with human women right so you're saying that it's not just that a third of the

00:17:33.480 angels you know like a third of the stars swept out of heaven in a singular moment that that may

00:17:38.820 be as well but there were also other angels uh that that angels uh rebelled against god so we're

00:17:45.760 talking about falling in the sense of of sinning against god rebelling against god but then also

00:17:50.180 quite literally falling from heaven in the sense of moving physically geographically to earth for

00:17:56.940 the express purpose of creating a um posterity for yeah and so and you're saying uh that one

00:18:04.000 theory the syntax in genesis 6 4 allows for that to happen uh that event to happen more than once

00:18:09.980 that happened pre-flood and then happened again after the flood and the reason why we're insisting

00:18:13.880 or at least saying that it's plausible um that it would happen again after the flood is because we

00:18:20.000 have one or two texts in the book of numbers and i think you said there's another text in

00:18:24.160 deuteronomy that talk about the nephilim after the flood right we have the 10 wicked spies

00:18:29.340 israelite spies but they're wicked because they're filled with unbelief and not trusting the promises 0.88

00:18:34.520 of god right and cowards will will be in the lake of fire so wicked is an appropriate term for the 0.98

00:18:39.360 counter but these 10 wicked wicked spies um you know they go with joshua and caleb 12 and all 0.55

00:18:44.940 but 10 return and bring a bad report of of the land and say that we were like grasshoppers in

00:18:50.580 our eyes uh and that the nephilim were there with them and um and so then some guys like the seth

00:18:56.300 ike guys you know they would um they would say you know well um you know you know we were like

00:19:01.500 because this doesn't just say nephilim you know men of renown but then also says physically we're

00:19:05.760 like grasshoppers we were small you know so then that that gets real tough to say that the nephilim

00:19:10.280 weren't actual giants um but then you know some guys would say well that this just uh this just

00:19:16.080 is meant to further indict those 10 wicked spies and their unbelief um because they're actually

00:19:21.660 lying lying saying that there's there's giants because they're so cowardly that they don't want 0.92

00:19:26.120 to face them or or maybe even psychologically they believed that they were like grasshoppers

00:19:30.520 and these guys were five times their size uh because they just they couldn't even think straight

00:19:34.940 because they were so given into fear um or or the alternative is uh that they're actual giants yeah

00:19:41.840 and you know and that the the nephilim happened again so my point is the reason why ben for the

00:19:46.660 listener is saying there could have been um multiple events events referring to angels falling

00:19:51.980 from heaven to earth for the express purpose of creating nephilim half angel half half man

00:19:57.140 by breeding with the daughters of men is because you know uh the nephilim aren't just uh in existence

00:20:04.640 before the flood, but we see them again after the flood light numbers. So just real quick,

00:20:11.400 one important thing that I think will be important in contrasting your theory is that these are

00:20:17.620 different angels. It's not the same angels doing it over and over again. It's angels do it,

00:20:23.940 they're judged, more angels do it. And so that's just important. It's different angels each time.

00:20:29.800 yep that's helpful um so so my theory take a little bit of framework but so adam and eve were

00:20:36.300 created uh without us in nature they were created in a state of integrity um and so they were able

00:20:41.680 to fall um but they were not yet fallen um so a state of integrity um but not immutable integrity

00:20:47.940 able to fall and so you and i i think agree on this in terms of our our you know pre-lapsarian

00:20:53.920 view of uh you know that that adam so i i like to use the words eternal and forever life and

00:21:00.120 bifurcating that i'll explain the ways that i'm using the two terms of forever and eternal

00:21:04.520 but adam had forever life without eating of the tree of of life he did not need to eat of the tree

00:21:10.500 of life to uh to gain forever life he he actually only needed to not eat of the tree of the knowledge

00:21:15.720 of good and evil to maintain forever life god said the day that you eat of it the bad tree the

00:21:21.060 tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The day that you eat of it, you shall surely die. So in

00:21:24.720 order for Adam to not die, aka live forever, he didn't need to eat from the good tree, tree of

00:21:31.020 life. He needed to just not eat from the bad tree, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

00:21:35.400 I believe that the purpose of the tree of life was that Adam and Eve were in a probationary period

00:21:41.620 in a state of integrity in the garden and that there was a definite end to this. We don't know

00:21:47.040 exactly what that end was, but eventually Adam would have passed the test. If he had guarded

00:21:51.900 the garden, if he had protected his wife, provided for her, cared for her, obeyed the word of the

00:21:57.100 Lord, resisted temptation, watched over his wife, killed the serpent or sent it, you know, fought it

00:22:01.660 and got it out of the garden, the whole nine yards. If he had done that well, then God would

00:22:06.880 have held out to Adam the fruit of the tree of life. And upon eating of the fruit of the tree

00:22:13.640 of life adam who already had forever life by just not eating of the tree of the knowledge of good

00:22:18.640 and evil he then by eating of the tree of of life he would attain not just forever life but eternal

00:22:24.620 life eternal the way i'm using it is not just now in a state of integrity with death having not

00:22:30.780 entered the world but now a state of immutable integrity uh where he is not fallen and also now

00:22:37.080 not able to fall yeah and so that that's what i'm arguing there okay so now apply that to angels and

00:22:43.080 watches if there are multiple fallings um one of the things that's difficult you know we we watch

00:22:49.040 previous you know i mean we read history books we read the bible you know the best history book 0.91

00:22:53.460 there is um and we see prior generations of mankind doing really stupid things i mean just 0.99

00:22:59.640 just really stupid things the dumbest things and and paying the price i mean a hefty price you know 0.99

00:23:05.660 and just, and, and yet generation comes and generation goes and, and yet each one, we never 0.99

00:23:13.680 really learn, you know, that, that, you know, there'll be a fresh batch of people and they'll

00:23:17.500 think, but has socialism really ever been tried, you know? And, and, and it's like, how, how? Well,

00:23:23.460 one of the ways that we can explain that is because human beings, each generation, it may be a new

00:23:27.640 group of people. They may have the history books. They may be able to look and see these lessons

00:23:32.140 that people learn the hard way by doing terrible things and the consequences that, you know,

00:23:36.780 came about. And yet this fresh batch of people, this new generation have, they're totally depraved. 0.92

00:23:42.860 They have a sin nature because Adam and all his posterity are now born under the curse of sin.

00:23:48.500 And so that explains why, you know, we could look at Adam and Eve's fall and we could look at this

00:23:52.900 person's fall and that person's fall and that person's fall and still fall ourselves and still

00:23:56.900 make bad choices. Angels though, however, if it's multiple fallings, multiple events of angels

00:24:02.580 falling, the difficulty for me is that the angels that did not fall the first time. So if you have

00:24:08.120 the first batch of watchers pre-flood, antediluvian world, they fall and come into the daughters of 0.99

00:24:15.900 men, find them lovely and produce offspring. But then this is wiped out in the flood. And now we're

00:24:22.080 saying another batch of angels well those angels this next batch of angels is not like um like uh

00:24:28.380 another generation of angels they're they're angels that have watched the whole thing go down

00:24:33.360 yeah and they don't have a sin nature they don't they're not totally depraved like future generations

00:24:38.460 of man um they actually they're not just reading about it in a history book they watched these

00:24:43.780 angels fall they watched god's judgment of them uh they they watched the consequences and and they

00:24:50.780 watched it from a state of integrity without a sin nature um which to me seems very compelling

00:24:56.780 that that they would not say okay and but but maybe this time socialism will work you know

00:25:02.620 yeah yeah you know so that's that would be my position so then how do we have nephilim after

00:25:07.380 the flood one like i already said well maybe the 10 spies are just being super cowardly and saying

00:25:12.460 they're giants when really they were like six foot four instead of six foot one you know um that

00:25:18.180 but i don't think that i think actual nephilim um happened again in numbers these are actual

00:25:24.180 giants actual hybrid offspring of of fallen angels again another but not another batch i'm

00:25:30.820 sorry not another batch but the watchers this would be my view and i got this by thinking a

00:25:35.680 little bit about you and brian and and listening to your very first episode of the sea serpent

00:25:41.180 and and you guys talked about like how like there'd be more demonic activity for instance

00:25:46.260 in nations uh that aren't christianized in pagan nations right and then if a nation becomes

00:25:52.560 christianized like sure there's the c.s lewis aspect of like okay well technology and innovation

00:25:58.360 and development and so now demons are gonna you know they're gonna play a different strategy

00:26:02.500 right and that totally makes sense to me and so you know flying under the banner of depression

00:26:06.660 and some psychological disorder and schizophrenia you know or this or that um instead of just you

00:26:11.920 know full full-blown you know witch doctor uh demonic kind of stuff because it's a different

00:26:17.300 people and they're wanting to fly into the radar and and not be found out that makes sense to me

00:26:21.520 also i think the west has had a little bit just i think they're coming back but a little bit less

00:26:26.420 demonic activity because the west for the last you know 1500 years if you constantine but certainly

00:26:32.280 a thousand years with king alfred has been christianized yep and so the demons got their

00:26:36.640 butts kicked and so they you know they went to some place in africa in south america for a while

00:26:40.720 and and and so um but my point is with the watchers um the nephilim were wiped out because 0.77

00:26:46.900 these are the offspring of the fallen angels watchers and daughters of men so they're half

00:26:52.500 human they have they have lungs they're giants they're superhuman but still they have lungs

00:26:57.300 they have a beating heart they they need oxygen they're they're they're physical beings and so

00:27:02.080 the flood was enough and it needed to be catastrophic it needed to be global in order

00:27:05.720 to not just wipe out human beings wicked people but wicked super people yeah and it did i think 0.56

00:27:10.920 it was successful in wiping out the nephilim but the watchers themselves that are not half blood

00:27:16.500 fallen angels but full blood uh fallen angels they're they're you know they're the the real

00:27:22.600 deal the you know not a hybrid but the full full-blown angelic i'm wondering could they

00:27:28.220 have survived the flood could they have taken on you know the form of like a sea serpent for

00:27:34.700 instance and and survive the flood now some of them going to jude and and the book of enoch talks

00:27:41.400 about that but um we know that some of them were locked away in gloomy dungeons and so i i'm

00:27:46.380 thinking that god sent you know some some angels the flood to wipe out the nephilim and and man

00:27:51.800 and then some angels um to to go and bind up and lock away in gloomy dungeons some of these watchers

00:27:59.500 but maybe some of the watchers were missed by by the angels that they somehow escaped took on the

00:28:05.760 form of a sea serpent whatever escaped in the flood god of course being sovereign overall allowed

00:28:10.720 them to escape and then these are the ones who then again after the flood generations later came 0.74

00:28:16.460 into the daughters of man a second time created a new batch of nephilim blah blah so that's that's

00:28:21.660 kind of my theory and what i'm thinking there and then you and i think we also both agree that in

00:28:25.760 terms of these gloomy dungeons uh you and i both have some some theories on what's under the earth

00:28:31.800 yeah yeah these gloomy dungeons maybe being literal physical places yeah under our feet i do

00:28:37.920 think they are i'll say one thing too just for the listeners to kind of help them think through the

00:28:42.880 these two uh views so when we talk about man falling okay and then all of man now is totally

00:28:52.860 depraved. The reason that that is, is because Adam was our federal covenant head. He represented

00:28:59.580 man before God. And so if he fell, man falls. But the opposite's also true. If Adam prevails,

00:29:06.580 we also are born righteous in a state of immutable integrity before God. Immutable,

00:29:12.360 positive holiness. You'd agree that's just the basic reformed view. It's pointless because it

00:29:17.720 didn't happen. But if it did happen, that would be the case. The angels aren't like that, though.

00:29:21.960 The angels don't procreate like human beings in their normal state.

00:29:26.380 So when we hear in the confession that there are elect and non-elect angels, that election is not.

00:29:34.560 Well, I shouldn't put it that way.

00:29:37.260 God's God decrees that election and he brings it about as he providentially determines.

00:29:41.920 But what we can say is that the fall of one angelic group doesn't determine the fall of another angelic group.

00:29:49.720 Right. The same is also true. 0.96

00:29:51.960 the positive obedience of one angelic group doesn't determine the positive obedience of

00:29:56.340 another because they're different. So I could see the argument and I would probably make this

00:30:00.920 argument if I was really trying to like debate it, but I could see the argument that because

00:30:05.500 of how different humans are from the angelic category, you could, you could conceivably have

00:30:12.620 a group of angels that watch this event happen. And as they watch it, they are still in that

00:30:19.980 state of integrity. But since there's no federal headship in the angelic world, they're still able

00:30:26.220 to fall. So, you know, there's no, as far as we know, there's no singular moment where angels

00:30:32.960 suddenly just in mass stop becoming able to sin before the final day of judgment.

00:30:39.680 And I think that, I think that Berkhoff's view is pretty compelling that each angel eventually

00:30:44.400 reaches a stage where they're no longer able to disobey, but we have no way of speculating as to

00:30:49.660 win that whereas adam would have done it for all of us exactly because he's a federal head of all

00:30:53.900 his posterity yes because of reproduction because of fatherhood that because he's a patriarch father

00:30:59.140 rule but angels don't have they don't have fathers right they have they've gone the father yeah but

00:31:05.060 but but they don't have yeah exactly so it's it's one batch of angels um it's not one man and then

00:31:12.780 from him he begot so-and-so who begot so-and-so who begot so-and-so um that so you're totally

00:31:19.280 right so that's and so i like i like that the idea of burkhoff's view that each angel individually

00:31:25.460 um without federal federalism each angel individually having just like adam would

00:31:31.140 have had like some kind of probationary period whatever that looked like and probably you know

00:31:35.560 always attached to my my guess would be a task an assignment yeah so almost like it's kind of funny

00:31:40.680 but a wonderful life you know when an angel gets its wings you know when an angel goes in and so

00:31:45.300 probably for the watchers and i like you know all the way back to the beginning of our conversation

00:31:48.700 but like you know some the seraphim you you were mentioning that to me offline and that was really

00:31:53.620 helpful for me i actually hadn't thought about that but you said like that they're you know

00:31:57.820 they're standing before the presence of god they're facing god yeah right so there are some

00:32:01.880 angels that in quite literally in a literal sense are like they have a a god-facing ministry

00:32:07.560 assignment but there are other angels that are very interested in the affairs of men and not

00:32:12.340 in a sense that like they find men more interesting than god but but by design by god's order his

00:32:18.160 decree. He is like Hebrews. It says, are angels not ministering spirits that are called, I forget 0.99

00:32:25.100 the exact verbiage, but called to help the sons of men who are to inherit salvation, the elect

00:32:31.020 people. So there is a category of angels per Hebrews that exists, was created by God to give

00:32:40.080 him praise and worship, but to also honor him by fulfilling man-facing assignments, man-oriented

00:32:47.740 assignments particularly men who are elect called to salvation and so perhaps these angels for the

00:32:53.800 watchers for the seraphim god-facing angels perhaps it's it's different you know but for

00:32:59.580 the watchers it could totally make sense that each one individually apart from federal headship

00:33:03.780 each one individually task-based assignment-based as they go and help that that elect person called

00:33:11.120 to salvation like hebrews talks about and and succeed uh that they the angel gets its wings so

00:33:16.760 wings being the angel already in a state of integrity no no sin having never sinned but now

00:33:22.780 moving from a state of forever you know to eternal from a state of integrity to a state of immutable

00:33:28.620 integrity now not fallen but also not fallen and unable to ever fall um totally yeah i mean

00:33:36.740 if you think about the the typology of church officers uh you know you have the bishop elder

00:33:43.980 pastor, if you take two, three office view, whatever, you have this guy or a group of guys

00:33:49.880 who represent to the church Christ. They are the ones that God said, you are the shepherds of my

00:33:57.700 flock. You have the keys of the kingdom and you will represent me directly to the people. Well,

00:34:04.040 then you also have this office of deacon that is the minister, the assistant to the elders,

00:34:09.540 much like how we would think of just in really basic terms, the angels are the assistance of

00:34:14.780 God. They're carrying out God's providential decree on the earth. And he, because he just

00:34:19.520 seems to want it to be done that way. And so if you think about that, well, then you look at the

00:34:25.220 qualification for a deacon and you're like, oh, well, that's kind of a cool connection that he's

00:34:30.120 supposed to hold the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. And he's supposed to be tested

00:34:34.060 first and proved right. And then he can take the office. And so if you think about how,

00:34:40.820 you know, Berkhoff's view of the angels is that each one would have this probationary period.

00:34:45.720 And I really like your idea that it's oriented towards a specific task. Well, that is like the

00:34:51.160 heavenly or the unseen diaconate in the world where each one is given this task and he's tested

00:34:58.460 or she, whatever you call an angel, pronouns, they, them, but each one is tested. And then

00:35:05.140 upon successful completion of the test, they would be out of their probationary period and in this

00:35:15.300 immutable state of integrity. That's a really interesting idea. Yeah. I think that totally

00:35:19.220 makes sense. With my theory, you're absolutely right. So no federal headship, not necessarily

00:35:26.620 an immutable state of integrity but what i'm arguing is that even apart from an immutable

00:35:32.320 state of integrity just by a state of integrity alone angels one group of angels watching another 0.97

00:35:38.620 group of angels rebel against god and then and then get their butts kicks kicked by god and

00:35:45.420 locked away in gloomy dungeons um you know that these guys over here even though they're still

00:35:52.060 able to fall that they would still look at that from from without a sin nature from a state of

00:35:56.720 integrity and say no no you know whereas whereas us as human beings we look at past other generations

00:36:06.260 of human beings who have done terrible things and and the reason why it's different than angels is

00:36:14.520 because we have a sin nature so we can say that was a really bad idea i don't know why he did that

00:36:19.720 and then yet we still make mistakes ourselves sometimes the very same mistakes um but it makes

00:36:25.260 more sense from a human standpoint because um because of the sin nature even for the christian

00:36:32.660 who who is now redeemed and has a new heart and has the spirit of god dwelling within them

00:36:37.480 even for the christian there's something to be said uh you know with roman 7 what i want to do

00:36:42.500 this i cannot do but the evil that i do not want to do this i keep on doing oh what a wretched man

00:36:46.740 i am who can save me from this body of death right that the soul has been saved but there's still

00:36:51.760 this sense of the body and glorification that's um that that is being awaited and that of course

00:36:57.680 that you know i just showed my hand i i think that paul that's a post-conversion i think paul's

00:37:01.920 writing as a christian romans 7 some would disagree with that position i understand but

00:37:05.700 anyways all that being said even for if if i'm right about that that this is paul romans 7

00:37:10.200 talking about how he keeps doing the the evil the sin that he doesn't want to do and it's the

00:37:15.780 apostle paul as a christian saying that then certainly um a non-christian person is going to

00:37:22.920 give in but the angel would be different to me because even though he's not immutable he's never

00:37:29.000 sinned before and so even if there's a curiosity it's like all right i'm watching how'd it go for

00:37:35.260 you not well okay let's uh take note of that but i don't i don't know so anyway so it could be

00:37:42.340 multiple fallings or it could be the the nephilim themselves the hybrid offspring of these watchers

00:37:49.680 fallen angels are wiped out in the flood but some of the watchers themselves locked in gloomy dungeons

00:37:55.100 under the earth in caverns that are there right now today yes that are literally caverns yep or

00:38:02.460 and i should say not or and some of them locked away but some of them taking on morphing into

00:38:09.040 sea serpents surviving the the torrents of water in the flood and then and then the same so the

00:38:15.640 same group a lesser number of them this time but the same group doing it again um and that's the

00:38:21.820 nephilim that we find in the book of numbers so that's so it's either as a second a different

00:38:26.080 batch of watchers angels falling in a second event a second falling after the flood or it's

00:38:33.660 some of the the nephilim are wiped out but some of those watchers some of that first batch survive

00:38:38.620 the flood aren't locked up in gloomy dungeons and they do it again one of those things and that's

00:38:42.900 how we get nephilim i wasn't going to say this because it spoils a little bit of a future episode

00:38:49.280 of haunted cosmos but say yeah i have to say it because i'm really liking what you're saying

00:38:56.240 that some of the watchers are still around still active um it's easy if you take my stance to get

00:39:05.720 into this position where there is no watcher activity whatsoever. It's just disembodied

00:39:10.180 Nephilim spirit activity. The reason that I don't like that is because if you look at the message

00:39:15.200 that alien abductees are receiving from these aliens, if you believe their stories at all,

00:39:21.240 if you just suspend disbelief and listen to what they say, what they'll tell you oftentimes is that

00:39:29.380 the aliens are abducting them. And part of the fundamental reason why is because they they're

00:39:35.780 trying to create a hybrid race of them and human beings. And so you can say, well, all the Nephilim 0.91

00:39:43.000 spirits, you know, they learned this from their dads and they're still trying to just do it. And 0.84

00:39:47.240 so they they fly around and flying saucers trying to deceive man or or if you're right, you can just

00:39:55.060 say like no it's just literally the same play by the same people it's not even it's not chips off

00:40:00.840 the old block it's the old block it's the old block it's it's the it's the simplest thing in

00:40:06.080 the world like literally are we just dumb they're doing the exact same thing so i do like that we

00:40:11.400 get into that in episode 10 of season one so so stay tuned for that but it's a good little easter

00:40:15.980 egg yeah that's a great one so yeah so i think i think that's totally possible so now let's talk

00:40:20.780 a little bit about um caverns under the earth yes uh angels fallen angels watchers being locked

00:40:29.040 away in in actual literal physical uh gloomy dungeons on this planet under under this ground

00:40:36.020 and i'd like to as we explore that as we explore these caverns i'd like to also uh explore the

00:40:43.300 idea of not just uh angels being locked away but uh what else might be down there yes under the

00:40:49.020 ground. Yes. So why don't you start? What do you think? Sure. Other, other things besides Bigfoot

00:40:54.900 that are clear. If you got something on Bigfoot, feel free. Yeah, I do. I do genuinely think that's

00:41:02.180 true, but I don't have, I don't have a defense for it. It just smells good. Yeah. So we're told

00:41:08.500 that the angels are locked in chains under the earth. And I think that that's literal. And the

00:41:12.660 reason that i think that is because you have the story in in it's in luke uh and christ is telling

00:41:19.620 a parable about the the rich man and lazarus right and lazarus dies he's taken to abraham's bosom

00:41:26.800 and from abraham's bosom he can see this rich man that used to oppress him in life and the rich man

00:41:33.520 can see lazarus and they're and they're not physical anymore they're in a spiritual state

00:41:39.680 and yet they're able to see one another. They're localized spirits and they're able to shout at

00:41:45.580 one another. And Abraham is able to shout back at this rich man as well. And even in a spiritual

00:41:49.740 state also recognize one. Yeah. Yeah. Also recognize one another. And so, yeah, exactly.

00:41:55.640 So now we have a category that's really, really weird of spiritual people, people that are

00:42:02.020 disembodied souls at this point, living in the earth, presumably because Sheol has spoken about

00:42:09.640 only in terms of it being in the belly of the earth, literally. Right. And yet there's an open 0.78

00:42:14.440 space. They can see one another, talk to one another and recognize one another. So I think

00:42:19.880 that within this, this massive category of Sheol, you have a bunch of different neighborhoods. 0.97

00:42:25.160 So you have the Sheol of the damned, which is where the normal human guy who dies a reprobate 0.87

00:42:31.900 will go to await final judgment and it's torment there. It's not good. It's not a place you want

00:42:37.220 to be. You also have Tartarus, which is this separate kind of neighborhood that I believe

00:42:42.860 that's where the fallen angels are bound. You know, whichever ones are bound, whether it's all

00:42:47.940 of them or some, that's where they are. And then you have this really paradisical neighborhood,

00:42:51.400 which is Abraham's bosom, but it's no longer there because now Abraham's bosom was carried

00:42:56.620 up into the presence of the Lord by Christ upon his ascension and resurrection and ascension. 0.67

00:43:01.920 And so, you know, you could say that Sheol got a little bit bigger for the reprobates, but I think that those are literal places. I think that there is a massive space in the earth or multiple spaces in the earth where disembodied souls go.

00:43:18.580 um i that's a very medieval idea but it also seems to be the plain reading of the text that

00:43:24.620 i don't think we're i don't think god is tricking us here and i also don't think he's just dumbing

00:43:29.740 things down to some sort of uh metaphor that we can understand i think that he's actually just

00:43:35.160 telling us this the actual state of things so i think that there's not only fallen angels chained

00:43:41.460 in the earth i think that there's also reprobate souls who are damned in the earth awaiting final

00:43:46.260 judgment. And I think that the souls of the saints also used to be living in the earth and bound to

00:43:52.080 the earth. And you can look at, you know, in a good paradise place, but yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Really

00:43:56.680 good place. Abraham's bosom. Yeah. Yeah. But first Samuel 28, you have the witch of Endor scene.

00:44:01.960 And I believe it's first Samuel 28. Called up. But yeah, you have Samuel called up. You know,

00:44:07.260 you'd think that a saint would come down. And some commentators will try to say, well, clearly that

00:44:12.640 means that this is a demon who's trying to deceive Saul but that's just not what the bible says it

00:44:17.740 says that it's Samuel multiple times it refers to him as Samuel both in the proper noun sense and

00:44:23.000 then in the pronoun sense as well and so you have to why would a demon rebuke Saul like a demon

00:44:27.640 encourage Saul for that action like hey you're doing this thing that God hates and I really

00:44:32.100 like it keep doing more of it you know but like but it sounds like Samuel um yeah material Saul

00:44:38.400 recognizes, yep, that's Samuel. What does he look like? So there's still like a physical,

00:44:42.680 I mean, it is spiritual, but with an appearance that can be recognized, manifesting some kind

00:44:48.900 of appearance that can be seen and recognized. But then it's not just the way that the spirit

00:44:53.460 looks, but when the spirit speaks, there's a rebuke of Saul. That is something that a righteous

00:45:01.700 Samuel would have said. Yeah, exactly. So I think that at the very minimum, before Christ came and

00:45:09.300 did his mediating work in time, you had three groups of beings in the earth, the reprobate,

00:45:16.600 the saint, and also the fallen angel. But however, I do genuinely think that Bigfoot is a disembodied

00:45:25.020 Nephilim spirit, and I think that those can certainly be in Sheol as well. 0.75

00:45:29.200 So I'm with you on all of it, except for Bigfoot. But the good news is that I could probably be one over. So you guys wait for a Bigfoot episode. Yeah, get to that episode. And, and, you know, I'll, I'll give it a hearing. I'm not one over by Mothman. But I don't know, Bigfoot, just give it time. You got to let it simmer in your mind.

00:45:49.560 okay um so all right so here's here's some of my theories of under the earth uh so everything you

00:45:56.980 said 100 um except for the bigfoot part well you and me both i mean i don't yeah who knows but we're

00:46:03.020 not sure but the other ones i i agree with you 100 i i feel fairly confident that that's that

00:46:09.220 that's the case a little bit of background theology for the listener um with uh with um

00:46:17.180 And Jesus, you know, so basically what I'm trying to get at is a descent to hell.

00:46:23.520 So we, you know, we do the Apostles' Creed and we say descent to Hades.

00:46:28.200 You know, he descended to Hades on the third day he rose again.

00:46:31.600 And so what we're trying to say is that he descended to the realm of the dead.

00:46:35.140 Jesus didn't go to hell.

00:46:37.120 So Jesus did not.

00:46:39.400 The wrath of God was poured out on Christ on the cross.

00:46:42.440 so so jesus suffered the shame um the humiliation the physical torture uh physical death but he

00:46:51.620 also on the cross was underneath the white hot wrath of god for sin and i think the wrath of god

00:46:57.860 was beginning to be poured out on on christ even in the garden of gethsemane as he's getting closer

00:47:04.400 to uh the crucifixion that he's sweating drops of blood and so um so my view and i think it's the

00:47:11.320 the historic Reformed view is that Jesus did not need, in order to atone for our sin,

00:47:17.320 the wages of sin is death, and particularly death under God's just judgment, not just physical

00:47:25.300 death, but a spiritual death. In order for Jesus to take our penalty, Jesus didn't have to go to

00:47:31.060 hell. So that sounds good. It sounds like that'll preach. Jesus went to hell, so you don't have to.

00:47:35.820 um no jesus uh drank the full cup of god's wrath towards sin so that you don't have to and i think

00:47:42.420 he did that on the cross so so when he died and gave up his spirit uh he did not go to hell um

00:47:50.460 the the bad of these three chambers the bad place in sheil uh the belly of the earth the realm of

00:47:56.500 the dead um but he actually went to the good place in sheil and proclaimed across that chasm so he's

00:48:03.100 over there with abraham and with lazarus says what's up guys i'm here and they're like no way

00:48:08.360 it's just you know and then and then he proclaims and preaches a sermon um in first peter chapter

00:48:14.920 three talks about this yep uh nope is it chapter three chapter four i think is it chapter three

00:48:21.400 the angels long to look into yes exactly and the one on baptism it's on about yeah four i always i

00:48:27.760 always say first Peter, uh, chapter three, because I'm usually, uh, going to say something about,

00:48:33.020 um, women having a gentle and quiet spirit. That's it. That's a, that's a, always a fan

00:48:40.760 favorite. Um, so, uh, but anyways, uh, so all that being said, so Jesus, he he's, you know,

00:48:45.840 in the belly of the earth, he's with Abraham. He's on the good side, Abraham's bosom. He's

00:48:50.060 shouting across this chasm, preaching, um, a sermon to the, you know, like the, the rich man,

00:48:56.800 you know who tormented lazarus during his lifetime and all everybody else all the reprobates all

00:49:01.660 all those and um and he's not giving them a second opportunity at salvation um he's he is

00:49:09.160 proclaiming his triumph over them and he's also preaching who else can hear this sermon

00:49:14.260 would be that that third room down there of those those watchers fallen angels locked in gloomy

00:49:20.700 dungeons, and he's mocking them, and he is proclaiming his triumph, his victory over sin,

00:49:29.520 over Satan, over death, and then he leads a host, everyone in Abraham's bosom, out and up now into

00:49:38.940 the presence of God, because he has now made a way, and so, yeah, and so, but everyone else is

00:49:45.680 now staying there, and they're going to stay there until the final day where they're cast into the

00:49:49.820 lake of fire yep she was cast into the into the lake of fire yeah right so we would say right now

00:49:54.880 those who have um who are saints old testament saints new testament saints anyone who dies in

00:49:59.900 the lord or has died in the lord um is in the presence of the lord um now in heaven um and

00:50:06.220 abraham's bosom is no more um but there are still um under the earth fallen angels and fallen men

00:50:15.640 who died apart from saving grace in Christ. And so that being said, one other thing I think might

00:50:22.600 be under there is, I think we should talk just a little bit. You said you have some, you know,

00:50:27.440 a little bit of thoughts on this. I've got some thoughts, but primary water.

00:50:31.380 Oh, yes.

00:50:32.400 What do you know about primary water?

00:50:33.860 Okay, so here's all I know. I know that it's something that I'm tempted to just say like,

00:50:40.200 yeah i'm i'm i'm in it it smells good i'm bought in but my understanding of it is that the of

00:50:49.040 course the elites are lying to us that water is not some finite resource on the earth but rather

00:50:56.860 water is all the time being created by the pressures and and all the different elements

00:51:02.940 in the earth and of course by god's sovereign hand over all those things and so we get new

00:51:07.720 springs popping up all the time, which is true. That's just true. The difference is that the

00:51:14.200 primary water people, and correct me if I'm wrong, are saying that that's actually new water that's

00:51:19.300 being made. It's not just the same water that's being recycled and put up in a new location

00:51:23.960 because of ventilation shafts from the center of the earth or something. And so what you have is

00:51:29.240 a government psyop that's trying to tell you everyone needs to be afraid all the time.

00:51:33.260 Well, this is like precious resource in the world. Yeah. And it's running out water. And yeah. Yeah. And so you have like a Mad Max situation where everyone's just killing each other over water when the reality is, no, that's not a fear that that we should have. That's not a that's not a feature of the curse. And instead, we actually have plenty of water. We just have lost the wherewithal of our surroundings to know where it is and how to find it. So is that is that kind of?

00:52:00.680 absolutely you nailed it and you're gonna love this because i'm gonna get to atlantis but uh

00:52:05.240 so with but so with that 100 agree um in terms of just the character and nature of god here's

00:52:13.040 what christians have to believe this is why some of these things they they met all these things

00:52:16.560 matter um but this is just one you know theology applied all right so let me apply it to the

00:52:21.100 character and nature of god god is not capricious god is not cruel um god did not command us in our

00:52:28.020 very origin as mankind to do the very thing that he knew secretly would bring about our own demise

00:52:34.640 right god doesn't say be fruitful multiply and then behind closed doors he's

00:52:39.300 just this is how the the whole you know human race will end by obeying my command because i'm

00:52:47.560 god and i give really bad commands that hurt people like i mean think about that first if

00:52:52.840 you're a christian you you have got you have got to completely mortify the overpopulation myth

00:53:00.380 yeah you like you are not allowed to be a christian and believe um in the goodness of god his

00:53:06.840 character and his law word that that what god commands is not only that which is morally right

00:53:12.520 but that also which is good um you you cannot be a christian and and have a biblical view of the

00:53:19.040 character of god and think that um that we shouldn't have a bunch of kids 100 agree so so

00:53:24.640 we'll start with that so that's step one um so now thinking of that um we cannot believe that

00:53:32.460 the context the habitat environment that god created for us to multiply in um that it would be

00:53:39.080 that it would be a zero-sum game that it would be uh something that yeah well you sure you can

00:53:45.420 multiply but you know if if you're the more obedient to god you are aka the more children

00:53:51.040 you have the more multiply the more obedient uh to god you have the less you'll actually be

00:53:56.780 rewarded you'll have to you'll have to split that pie more ways and each person gets a smaller slice

00:54:03.520 um that's just simply not the that's not the character of god so i believe that that resources

00:54:09.660 are finite um but but that they're not um that they're not they're finite but they're plentiful

00:54:16.860 yes um and and and there's far more than we've yet to discover so when you think of you know

00:54:23.020 60 million babies over the last 49 years you know um murdered in their mother's wombs and you think

00:54:30.380 well 60 million uh less males defeat well we've already talked about theology our view of god

00:54:35.940 that he's not capricious, he's not cruel. But working down from that and what the Bible says

00:54:40.280 about anthropology, our view of man, do you see man as a leech, as a parasite? Or do we see man

00:54:47.540 as a lowercase c creator, not able to create ex nihilo like God out of nothing, but a creator

00:54:54.940 nonetheless in the image of God, needing resources and materials to create with, but able to reproduce

00:55:01.740 and create and multiply the resources that god has given us in extraordinary ways so disney if

00:55:07.900 you think of what's the pagans anthropology it's exactly the opposite of the christians

00:55:12.080 the pagan is going to say that on the inside follow your heart because on the inside your

00:55:17.800 intentions your inward intent and motives and true person deep down is really really good 0.98

00:55:24.060 but on the outside people are like parasites every person that's born is just another mouth

00:55:30.120 to feed and so it'd be better to have less of them that is the liberals the progressives view of man 0.84

00:55:35.180 on the outside bat he's a liability on the inside good um a sweet little heart the christian's view

00:55:43.860 is exactly the opposite that apart from from saving grace in christ jesus upon initial physical

00:55:50.680 birth every human being that enters the world on the inside totally depraved on the outside

00:55:56.480 bearing the image of god and able to create suspension bridges eventually cure cancer and

00:56:01.480 you know the whole nine so we believe exactly the opposite we believe on the inside probably

00:56:05.960 shouldn't follow your heart you're not that sweet you're not that cute on the outside

00:56:09.760 good golly um that like the sky is the limit you know atomic bombs are are in the cards and and so

00:56:17.540 is you know the cure for all kinds of diseases and so so we literally believe the exact same 0.50

00:56:21.900 exact opposite thing that the pagan believes about mankind now all that being said i believe

00:56:27.180 that there's so many things that we've yet to discover and one of those i think is a plethora

00:56:33.000 of of water under the earth um new water that's being created but then also water that's already

00:56:39.820 there and i think part of this explains so not only the flood with a flood you have the canopy

00:56:45.580 of water being being broken and pouring out on the world um but you also have the the great springs

00:56:51.420 of the deep opening up. And I think in their opening up, as the world was beginning to flood,

00:56:56.580 I think that that's part of where the good angels, God commissioned them to come and take the

00:56:59.980 watchers, the fallen angels, and take them as these great springs and caverns are being opened

00:57:04.580 in the world. And as the flood is starting to commence, the good angels are going down

00:57:10.340 into those springs and locking up those watchers, those fallen angels under the earth, like what

00:57:17.040 we talked about earlier. But so we know water under the earth is springing forth during the

00:57:21.140 flood but then i'm also thinking of peter uh that says that uh that the earth was formed um from

00:57:27.200 water uh that you know that the spirit hovered you know and then genesis the spirit was hovering

00:57:31.920 above the water it was without uh void and without form um but but the water was uh the earth was

00:57:38.720 formed out of water and so my my thought is one i think there's plenty of resources we're going to

00:57:43.980 discover more and more things and i i think that the world could host a trillion people i think

00:57:48.420 We'd have a trillion people as a population and be just fine because we're going to discover more and more and more things and we're going to have more and more resources and all that.

00:57:59.980 But all that being said, in terms of my view of the final return of Christ, I was thinking, okay, so on one hand, Peter says that the earth is destroyed by water, but then it'll be destroyed by fire.

00:58:11.540 And that's where a lot of, you and I have been, you know, the Georgetown, Texas group and the Moscow group and the Ogden group, you know, we would differ from a lot of our reformed brothers in the sense that we don't believe that the world is going to be destroyed in the sense of being annihilated.

00:58:31.960 Yeah, no annihilation.

00:58:33.580 Disintegrated, exactly.

00:58:34.380 So, like, I was in San Diego for a while, so we were, you know, just south of Westminster, Escondido, right?

00:58:40.840 so you got van druden you've got michael horton you've got the whole radical two kingdom uh stuff

00:58:45.400 and and van druden i mean he you know they they believe like the world is going to disintegrate

00:58:50.120 it's going to be annihilated it's going to you know they they believe the only thing literal

00:58:55.560 physical thing that uh that will transcend from this world from this life this age to uh the

00:59:02.680 heavenly jerusalem is the physical body and van druden you know you can tell he he almost is

00:59:07.040 begrudgingly allowing for that but he knows that if he doesn't hold to a bodily resurrection he's

00:59:11.400 a heretic so i can find the physical body that can continue but everything else is disintegrated

00:59:18.500 and if i could find a way to say biblically that your body would never come back i would

00:59:22.400 and so that's kind of you know that's that's the view um whereas i would say okay well god

00:59:26.800 destroyed the world once already yeah but we're not on a different rock exactly it's the same rock

00:59:32.660 And so the Bible is perfectly truthful when it says God destroyed the world with water.

00:59:40.620 It was a decreation and recreation event.

00:59:43.800 Exactly.

00:59:44.820 So fire.

00:59:46.980 So my thought is under the earth, you have caverns.

00:59:51.340 You've got the whole thing that we've already discussed of people who are damned, demons that are locked up in gloomy dungeons.

01:00:00.280 Abraham's bosom now empty now with heaven because of Christ and his finished work

01:00:04.160 then primary water being one layer under that I'm thinking molten lava core fire and and so my

01:00:14.940 thought is like that God opens this first layer of water with the first flood that destroys and

01:00:21.380 recreates the earth destroys in a real sense life is is wiped out but but but also recreates

01:00:28.640 it doesn't annihilate or disintegrate. It's the same planet, the same rock. At the end,

01:00:33.120 he's going to do it with fire. And so now I'm going to cross-reference here with Thessalonians. 0.88

01:00:36.420 I'm almost done and I'll turn to you. But Thessalonians says that when he returns,

01:00:40.280 we'll be caught up in the air. Now, if you pair that with like the parable of the 10 virgins,

01:00:47.800 that five are wise and five are foolish, the five that are wise, they have enough oil in

01:00:51.520 their lamps to keep them lit so that when the bridegroom finally does come in the middle of 0.85

01:00:55.000 the night they can see him and they go out to meet him so that he can take them somewhere else

01:00:59.780 no they they've been waiting for him to come to that town the one that they're already in

01:01:04.600 not not they're not waiting for him to come to take them to another town they're waiting to

01:01:09.120 greet him but but it's like well then why are they going out to meet him well they're going

01:01:13.980 out to meet him as an act of honor not because they're going out to meet him so he can take them

01:01:18.340 somewhere else they're going to meet him and then now be turn around and be his accompanying party

01:01:23.540 to to usher him into the town where they already were and so i believe that you know that at the

01:01:29.180 end there's not a secret rapture i'm not a dispensation let's praise god but at the end

01:01:33.520 you know that we will be caught first those who are dead in christ then those of us who are alive

01:01:37.740 caught up into the air um and and not for for christ to take us somewhere else but for us to

01:01:45.980 go and meet him and each other in the air and then be his welcoming committee to usher

01:01:53.080 him back down to this earth.

01:01:55.720 Now, during that time that we're in the air, I think that one thing that will occur is

01:02:00.780 just like the flood, they were spared on the ark, that we would actually be up in the air

01:02:05.740 with Christ and with one another watching now, not the layer of water under the core

01:02:10.480 open but the deeper layer of of fire open and consume christ enemies and then being swallowed

01:02:17.660 up in the earth like we see uh in the days of moses in the wilderness um and and being swallowed

01:02:23.820 up in the earth and that we're up here and that the fire now is is also reforming so you you think

01:02:29.720 of like and all this in a time lapse perhaps you know like sped up but like there water brings life

01:02:35.460 But there are tropical islands that only exist because of volcanic activity, that fire actually reshapes.

01:02:43.780 It does, it destroys initially, but it could actually give birth to greater vegetation, greater life, greater, you know, all these things.

01:02:53.520 And so, I'm wondering if, what if we're in the air and now, instead of like in the days of Noah, opening up the first layer, the great springs of the deep, the water under the earth, now it's even deeper than the water.

01:03:03.800 We've already tapped into that in our post-millennial discovery of the world and sustaining our

01:03:08.220 population of a trillion people strong, you know, and, and now it's the deeper layer of,

01:03:12.440 of fire and that's opening up and consuming the adversaries of God, the earth, swallowing

01:03:17.040 them up, remaking the earth.

01:03:18.780 And now we're bringing, we're welcoming Jesus, not to go to the 17th dimension, uh, with

01:03:23.500 him, but to usher him down to the kingdom that's being delivered to him.

01:03:27.180 This planet remade that, I don't know.

01:03:29.640 That's my theory.

01:03:30.320 What do you think?

01:03:30.600 No, so here, so my, the first thing that I thought of was loyal to the foil.

01:03:39.320 The first thing that I thought of when you were saying that was Sodom and Gomorrah,

01:03:42.880 because Sodom and Gomorrah is sort of like a, in my mind, a typological precursor to the judgment

01:03:48.740 of fire that is to come. And you have a really clear typological parallels between the story

01:03:56.180 of Lot and Sodom and Gomorrah and the story of Noah and the flood. You have this one guy who's

01:03:59.980 chosen. He's saved via something else. He's not saved of himself. Just like Noah was saved by the

01:04:07.160 ark, Lot is saved because of the righteousness of Abraham that God remembered. That's Genesis 19.

01:04:14.060 And so you're kind of seeing on a small scale what God's plan is for everything else. And that is to

01:04:21.820 judge the clear and obvious wickedness and rejection of him that's happened in the land.

01:04:26.320 But what does the destruction of the Jordan Valley in that narrative bring about? Well,

01:04:33.160 eventually it brings about the people of God coming into that land and taking it over for 0.98

01:04:37.660 the good that it is. And so it actually does bring some degree of new and better life.

01:04:43.880 So I don't hate that. And then you also have Lot, and he did this imperfectly, of course,

01:04:49.280 but Lot being called out. But he's being called out to be with Abraham, the righteous covenant

01:04:57.880 person that he was saved because God remembered. He was called up into the mountains. That's where

01:05:03.840 Abraham was. He was supposed to go up to Abraham. He rejected that. He went over into the caves and

01:05:08.280 then very bad stuff happened. So I don't, I mean, I don't know. I don't know. But that's the first

01:05:17.220 connection that jumped out at me and i think that there's legs to it but there's i think that

01:05:22.460 there's a clear theme in scripture of a judgment of water and then a judgment of fire and you have

01:05:28.500 both um and so it wouldn't surprise me to find that rhyme scheme played out on the scale of the

01:05:38.120 entire world and its final reformation and recreation uh on the last day i mean that's

01:05:43.220 what happened in ab 70 on a on a on a uh on a city-wide scale in jerusalem right you had a

01:05:48.500 fire you agree with me though in terms of fire um that it's it's going whatever that destruction is

01:05:55.220 going to be that it's not just the the whole world disintegrating destroyed in that sense

01:06:01.120 no no i i don't think the world is annihilated i think that this is the i think that this is the

01:06:05.780 one we got yep um and i new heavens on this earth made new not another earth new earth but

01:06:12.960 uh this earth made new new earth much like how the new covenant is substantially the same as

01:06:18.620 the old covenant it's just renovated yeah well okay all right um we'll save that for another

01:06:25.360 time but but van druden one more thing with with the westminster escondido guys is they would say

01:06:30.900 in this vein of what we're talking about right now they would say you know that um you know the

01:06:36.160 scripture that says that all creation is groaning with eager um expectation for the sons of god to

01:06:42.400 be revealed uh van druden says that um that what creation because because we would read that and

01:06:48.080 say creation why does why is creation eager it's first why is it groaning because um because adam

01:06:54.560 was federal head over all his posterity his wife and all uh future generations of humankind but

01:07:00.020 but god doesn't uh just curse um man he he cursed you know or the woman he cursed the the ground

01:07:07.500 yes the ground is cursed because of you so adam was actually federal head of all earthly

01:07:12.280 creation um that animals are groaning because of adam and trees are groaning because of adam

01:07:17.640 mountains are groaning because of adam um and so so creation is groaning for the new sons of god

01:07:24.220 um to be revealed uh so that so the first son of god as as genesis i think it's chapter five when

01:07:31.440 it gives the the um the the lineage the um yep um what is the word that i'm looking for the

01:07:37.920 genealogy the genealogy it says you know so and so the son of so and so the son of so and then

01:07:41.800 goes all the way to adam it's either genesis it might be 11 or it might be uh five but uh it's

01:07:47.380 genesis five yeah and then it says adam the son of god you know and and so the first son of god

01:07:53.620 in a sense not not the true son of god jesus but adam put creation under a curse uh jesus

01:08:02.040 said it right and all of it you know he comes to make his blessings flow as far as the curse

01:08:07.700 you know is is found and so um the the curse is being reversed now um yes the deeper magic right

01:08:14.820 is uh turning back the clock you know the blessing is not an annihilator the blessing

01:08:20.860 is a revitalizer right exactly and so and so now the the curse is being reversed progressively

01:08:27.700 throughout uh real human history and time things are getting better um that we actually even in

01:08:34.200 america we actually uh we literally have more force today then but you know so everyone's like

01:08:39.800 oh you know stop chopping down trees we have more force today than when um when america was first

01:08:45.400 found it there are more trees that with more people it's it's better for creation because

01:08:50.560 we're gardeners that's what god has has made us to be sure you can be corrupt and some people do

01:08:54.500 bad things but in general it's a positive force and so all these things being made new but my

01:09:00.400 point is that van druden those guys would say that creation is groaning so under the curse of adam

01:09:06.400 with eager expectations for the sons of god to be revealed because at that time the earth will

01:09:12.720 be destroyed in the sense of disintegration annihilation and uh what creation is groaning

01:09:17.940 for is a mercy killing it's groaning for god to mercifully take it out behind the old woodshed

01:09:24.100 and put her down um and i just i just i think that's a horrendous reading yeah of i think that

01:09:31.480 has to be so eisegeted to assume that uh it's eager creation has eager expectations for the

01:09:38.980 sons of God to be revealed. And it's, it's really happy and excited that this is going to happen

01:09:42.860 because then it will get shot by God in the face and die. I just, you have to force that onto the 0.99

01:09:49.360 scripture. That's just stupid. That's unintelligent is what that is. So creation wants the sons of 1.00

01:09:54.660 God to be revealed and renewed because in our salvation is creation salvation as well. That

01:10:02.020 we're tethered together, that as we're redeemed, creation is being redeemed as well. This creation,

01:10:07.940 Not that it's going to be put down and replaced.

01:10:11.080 Not that, you know, this dog's old, so we're going to take it out back, you know, and we'll get you a new puppy.

01:10:15.600 No, we're going to make this dog new.

01:10:17.480 Same dog, but brought back to health.

01:10:21.120 Because we're part of creation.

01:10:23.460 We are part of it.

01:10:24.420 We were made during the days of creation.

01:10:27.280 We're the crowning achievement of creation, so to speak.

01:10:30.400 And so 1 Corinthians 15, when a person dies, they're buried in shame, but they're risen in glory.

01:10:35.580 The same is true of the rest of creation.

01:10:37.320 We don't look for an annihilated and completely brand spanking new ex nihilo earth because we don't look for a completely brand spanking new ex nihilo man. 0.56

01:10:49.060 We look for a glorified man and we're looking for a glorified creation too. 0.85

01:10:53.080 That's just basic reading of what the word says.

01:10:58.760 To think otherwise, you get into all these crazy problems and frankly, it gets really close to Gnosticism too.

01:11:04.840 It does.

01:11:05.260 far too close for my comfort. But even just beyond that, it's not a compelling thing.

01:11:12.260 No one wants that. No one actually wants that. When you look around yourself, you think,

01:11:18.680 I want this to be made perfect. I don't want something that I don't know. I want something

01:11:23.660 that I know. And God made us to live here on this earth, not somewhere else. Otherwise,

01:11:28.540 he would have made us somewhere else. Again, he's not capricious and he doesn't change his mind.

01:11:33.640 what he did he meant to do and so just like in leviticus 18 you have the the sins of the people

01:11:39.520 of canaan the child sacrifice the sexual depravity and the land it says the land spit them out well 0.85

01:11:46.600 in the same way now that christ has accomplished his mediatorial work on the earth you have

01:11:52.600 creation it's like uh it's like when you're really hungry but you don't realize it and then someone

01:11:57.740 gives you a bite of like a cookie, but just one bite. And you're like, oh man, now I'm starving.

01:12:04.360 Like now I realize how hungry I am. Well, creation drank the blood of Christ. The dirt that we walk

01:12:12.400 on drank the blood of its king and maker. And now it wants the rest of it done. It wants the rest of

01:12:19.140 the victory worked out completely. So of course you have it groaning for the revealing of the

01:12:23.760 sons of God, just like us as part of creation are groaning for the revealing of Christ himself

01:12:29.140 and his return. Amen. Well, I, I said earlier that I would get to Atlantis. So I'll just say

01:12:35.100 real quick, just to circle back to that primary water thing. I, I just, I, I think you and Brian

01:12:41.100 are 100% spot on Sahara desert Atlantis. I, so I don't think Atlantis is under the earth. That was

01:12:46.560 not my point. I think that in restoring the earth, that primary water will be part of that,

01:12:52.940 you know that it's progressively that uh just so so isaiah i believe it's 65 that talks about like

01:12:59.720 the youth shall die at 100 so this dispensationalism that dog won't hunt with with isaiah 65

01:13:05.700 um it's this is not christ has returned um and but people are still dying yeah people don't die

01:13:12.660 when christ that's right when christ returns he lays death in its grave the and and death is not

01:13:17.240 the first of his enemies to defeat but the last of his enemies to defeat and the kingdom is handed

01:13:21.920 to him. Um, and so, and so all that being said, um, this is a later stage, I believe Isaiah 65.

01:13:29.620 Um, it says, uh, that, that, um, that no longer, um, will, will, uh, the child die in infancy and

01:13:36.140 the youth shall die at a hundred. Um, and so, you know, right now, even like if somebody dies at,

01:13:40.960 at, uh, 50, we say, man, he was so young, right? But not that long ago, if somebody died at 50,

01:13:46.240 people, people weren't saying he was so young. They would say, yeah, he lived a full life.

01:13:49.420 so in the same way that we would say somebody who dies at 100 he was just a kid he was just a youth

01:13:54.460 that that's that's in this dispensation for lack of a better word in this gospel age before the

01:14:00.280 final physical return of christ um and so so lifespans diseases being conquered um certainly

01:14:07.420 some godless ideologies marxism and communism and you know all these different things um better

01:14:13.840 stewardship better this better and and in that also discoveries to sustain a greater population

01:14:19.040 because people are living longer and they're obeying Jesus and being fruitful and multiplying.

01:14:23.620 You know, there's more people, so more water.

01:14:25.620 That's where primary water comes in.

01:14:27.080 And my point is, I think that when it's all said and done, I don't think there'll be any deserts.

01:14:32.040 Well, I like that.

01:14:32.900 So when Jesus comes, I don't think it'll be Jesus comes back and gets rid of the deserts.

01:14:37.800 I think Jesus, when he comes back, it'll be glorified, so even greater.

01:14:42.200 But I think, um, before he returns, um, that, that us redeemed man living out, um, uh, the

01:14:52.160 cultural mandate and the great commission, both the great commission doesn't replace

01:14:56.080 the cultural mandate, but comes alongside it by doing both, um, and the great commission

01:15:00.720 succeeding, um, and, and the, uh, the cultural mandate as the great commission succeeds,

01:15:06.460 the cultural mandate isn't something that we spurn and despise, but something we embrace.

01:15:10.420 And I think, you know, and throw a little sprinkle, a little primary water into the equation, you know, and then, yeah, there's no more Sahara Desert.

01:15:18.660 And Atlantis is brought back to her former glory, but without without the demons, without the demons.

01:15:23.600 Man, that would be great.

01:15:24.740 I hope anyways, I hope that's true.

01:15:26.640 I like that.

01:15:27.440 And then so let me just let me make sure I understand.

01:15:30.960 So redeemed man does this amazing work of cultivating the earth and bringing about, you know, the fullest glory that we're capable of on the earth as redeemed, not glorified.

01:15:44.820 And then at Christ's final return, we're taken away and there is this final judgment of fire on the earth and it's fully renovated and renewed, glorified.

01:15:55.040 It's raised in glory.

01:15:56.400 So that's good. So, you know, you get the postmillennial hope, but you avoid, you know, an over realized like a hyper realized eschatology because you're you're not denying the final judgment at all.

01:16:08.320 I like that. Right. And thanks. I mean, primary water makes sense because primary water is.

01:16:13.760 I don't mean this in the scriptural sense. I mean this in the scientific way. It's living water.

01:16:18.000 It is, uh, it's structured water and a lot of the health problems that we have today

01:16:24.580 are because we're lacking structured living water and, uh, and primary water gives us

01:16:30.360 that fresh spring water gives us that.

01:16:32.560 So I like that a lot.

01:16:34.600 Yeah.

01:16:35.420 Well, one of these days I would love if haunted cosmos ever gets to the point where you and

01:16:39.920 Brian do an episode on primary water.

01:16:41.660 Maybe we will now.

01:16:42.900 Yeah, that would be, I'm going to be thinking about that for a while.

01:16:45.300 All right.

01:16:45.860 Well, Ben, I'll let you have the final word.

01:16:48.820 Do you have any other thoughts that you want to add to this?

01:16:51.300 If not, let us at least know how people can follow you.

01:16:55.080 Yeah, no, I have appreciated the heck out of this conversation.

01:16:59.180 This has been awesome.

01:17:00.560 I've been really blessed by it and have a lot to chew on.

01:17:02.680 Primary water is really going to be an area of study for me for now.

01:17:07.040 Yeah, I was kind of like, oh, that's cool.

01:17:08.920 But, you know, I have other stuff to think about.

01:17:11.160 No, not anymore.

01:17:12.040 I can only think about this.

01:17:13.220 You can. No, thanks for having me on, Joel. You can find me on Twitter at Tom Pombadil, just like Tom Bombadil, but replace bomb with pawn P-A-W-N. It's a really dumb handle. If you can't find it, I won't be offended. Or you can follow us at Haunted Cosmos underscore. That's mostly Brian and I tweeting from there. And it's pretty much half and half. So it's kind of fun to have people guess who they think tweeted what.

01:17:41.180 But you can find me at Haunted Cosmos on Twitter, at Tom Pommadil on Twitter.

01:17:45.640 You can also find us on Instagram.

01:17:48.500 Awesome.

01:17:49.300 How was the new Christendom conference that you guys just did?

01:17:53.500 Oh, man, it was amazing.

01:17:55.620 We had a really big time.

01:17:57.540 The Lord was really kind in allowing us to put on what I think was a great time for people.

01:18:03.400 I think people were blessed.

01:18:04.460 I certainly was.

01:18:05.280 And we pray the Lord was glorified and his people were helped.

01:18:07.840 But it was awesome.

01:18:08.560 We're looking forward to the next one.

01:18:10.100 Cool.

01:18:10.320 Are you going to try to make it annual once a year?

01:18:13.380 I don't know.

01:18:14.500 So I'm not going to say.

01:18:16.080 I don't want to speculate.

01:18:16.920 We're having a debriefing meeting tomorrow.

01:18:18.900 We'll probably decide something like that.

01:18:21.760 But we definitely want to do it again.

01:18:24.060 I think it's very safe to say we're going to do it again.

01:18:26.720 Cool.

01:18:27.340 All right.

01:18:27.740 Well, thanks so much for coming on the show.

01:18:29.480 Thanks for having me, Joel.

01:18:30.440 Y'all have a great night.

01:18:31.460 All right.

01:18:31.760 Hold up.

01:18:32.120 You're not going to want to miss this.

01:18:33.100 I'm going to tell you exactly how our spring 2024 conference is going to go down.

01:18:37.580 Here's the title of the conference.

01:18:38.960 Blueprints for Christendom 2.0. Subtitle, Seven Doctrines for Ruling the World. We're going to

01:18:45.780 have seven primary sessions covering each of these doctrines for ruling the world righteously. Number

01:18:52.560 one, Reformed Confessionalism. That's going to be Pastor Doug Wilson preaching on that topic.

01:18:58.180 Then we've got Covenant Theology with Pastor Brian Sauve. Then we've got Biblical Patriarchy

01:19:03.820 with pastor Michael Foster. Then we've got presuppositionalism with Dr. Joseph Boot.

01:19:09.460 Then we've got Kuyperianism, all of Christ for all of life, where we're going to welcome pastor

01:19:14.880 Doug Wilson back for a second session. Then we've got general equity theonomy. We're going to have

01:19:20.520 Dr. Joseph Boot come and do a second session on that topic. And then lastly, we'll have pastor

01:19:25.720 Dale Partridge on post-millennial eschatology. In addition to these seven sessions, we're also

01:19:31.580 going to have not one but two live podcasts on the first day of the conference that's friday

01:19:37.700 march 1st we're going to have a live theology applied podcast i'll be on the stage hosting

01:19:43.140 the discussion with douglas wilson michael foster and eric khan from it's good to be a man the topic

01:19:49.860 is going to be all about biblical patriarchy we're going to specifically be parsing out

01:19:54.720 distinguishing the biblical doctrinal differences between patriarchy and complementarianism again

01:20:01.180 And that's Friday, March 1st, the first day of the conference, a live Theology Applied

01:20:05.960 podcast on biblical patriarchy.

01:20:08.140 Then we're going to have the next day, that's Saturday, March 2nd, a live Haunted Cosmos

01:20:14.180 podcast.

01:20:15.120 I'll be hosting this discussion with Brian Sauve and Ben Garrett.

01:20:19.140 We're going to be talking about the Nephilim.

01:20:20.760 We're going to be talking about the Watchers.

01:20:22.440 We're going to be talking about what creatures currently are living underneath the surface

01:20:26.560 of the earth and chasms of the deep.

01:20:28.540 It's going to be wacky.

01:20:29.540 It's going to be weird, but it will also be thoroughly biblical and incredibly unhinged.

01:20:35.080 So you're not going to want to miss these two live podcasts, Theology Applied, on Friday,

01:20:39.940 March 1st, the first day of the conference on biblical patriarchy with Doug Wilson, Michael

01:20:45.020 Foster, Eric Kahn, and myself.

01:20:46.800 And then the next day of the conference, Saturday, March 2nd, a live Haunted Cosmos podcast with

01:20:52.980 Brian Sauve and Ben Garrett and myself on the Nephilim, the Watchers, and What Lies

01:20:58.100 under the surface of the earth. And then the conference will hold over for one final, the

01:21:03.280 third and final day. That's going to be the Lord's day Sunday, March 3rd, where one of our speakers

01:21:08.960 will be holding over to preach the Lord's day sermon. And I'll be leading us in worship through

01:21:14.120 the liturgy. So we've got three days, a Friday, Saturday, Sunday, March 1st, 2nd, and 3rd of 2024

01:21:20.980 blueprints for Christendom 2.0, seven doctrines for ruling the world. You're not going to want

01:21:27.300 to miss this conference. Our early bird rate is still available, but only for a very short period

01:21:33.180 of time. We are ending the early bird rate on August 31st at 11 59 PM. That will be the final

01:21:40.100 chance to get into this conference at an affordable, cheap rate. All right. So go and

01:21:46.140 take advantage of the early bird rate right now by going to right response conference.com. Again,

01:21:52.120 That's rightresponseconference.com to register for Blueprints for Christendom 2.0, March 1st,

01:22:00.020 2nd, and 3rd, 2024. Register today.

The NXR Podcast - June 27, 2023

THEOLOGY APPLIED - The Watchers, The Nephilim, & Creatures Living Deep Inside The Earth ｜ with Ben Garrett

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