Ben and Brian discuss the Watchers, their offspring, the Nephilim, and what is currently living under our feet, deep within the earth, in the deep caverns. In less than a year, our podcast has gone from an average of 10,000 downloads a month to 50,000. What made the difference? You leaving us a five-star review.
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00:05:03.080Hey, thanks for having me, Joel. Happy to be here.
00:05:05.480Take just one second, Ben, and tell our listeners a little bit about you.
00:05:08.820Some of them will probably recognize your voice, but not necessarily your face, because you guys in Ogden, Utah, you don't really do video, but you do audio really, really well.
00:05:19.600How would our listeners probably know you best?
00:05:22.560They'd probably know me best from from Haunted Cosmos, this podcast that my my friend and pastor Brian Sovey do together.
00:05:30.060But I'm a deacon at Refuge Church, which is our church in Ogden, Utah.
00:05:34.840I'm also on staff, actually, with New Christendom Press, which is our publishing house.
00:05:38.960So I kind of split time between those two things and spend a lot of time researching really weird stuff online to talk about with Brian on Haunted Cosmos.
00:06:28.360but uh man give me sea serpents or give me death right yeah i mean the great white shark plummeting
00:06:34.3202 000 feet underneath the sea you know and the temperature rising from 40 something to 90 something
00:06:38.860like that yeah that was so good and then i really loved the episode that you guys did probably at
00:06:45.280this point i guess about a month ago because you guys do it once every two weeks yep uh but the
00:06:49.220one where you talked about the watchers and the nephilim and i was hoping that you know we could
00:06:53.480start there in our conversation today and then there's some other things you've got some theories
00:06:57.720I've got some theories, you know, that we can just kind of bounce off of each other and talk
00:07:01.760about all sorts of things. But starting with the Nephilim and the Watchers, can you help our
00:07:06.020listeners understand a little bit, biblically speaking, who are the Watchers? Who are the
00:07:10.900Nephilim? Yeah, no, that's great. This is one of my favorite topics, so I'm happy to start here.1.00
00:07:16.780The Watchers are a category of angelic beings, and we hear about them in the book of Daniel,
00:07:22.500specifically Daniel 7. We're told that it's this group of angels that look down on the affairs of
00:07:28.860men, and essentially they act as God's deacons on the world, and they ensure that the decree
00:07:35.740is carried out. And so one example that we get, and it's not necessarily fact that these are
00:07:42.560watchers that are discussed here, but they very well could be. Regardless, their function is
00:07:47.500similar. But it says in Daniel, one of the angels comes to visit Daniel and give him prophecy. And
00:07:53.540it says that he was resisted by the prince of Persia for 21 days. And then Michael came and
00:07:58.360helped him defeat the prince of Persia. And the prince of Persia is an angel. It's a throne or a
00:08:05.020power and principality that was resisting this other good angelic force seeking to do God's will.
00:08:12.020And so we know that there's spiritual battle going on all the time and, and the watchers play a crucial role in that. And so where they get really popular is in Genesis six, where we have this event, the sons of God go into the daughters of men because they find them very lovely and they produce this offspring.
00:08:31.080and it says that the offspring is called the Nephilim. It says the Nephilim were on the
00:08:36.340earth in those days and also after. And so if you take the supernatural view, which is actually
00:08:43.680the common view held throughout almost all of church history until about the 20th or 19th
00:08:48.820century. Right. That's when they started doing the line of Seth. Yeah, exactly. That's when
00:08:52.940we're sophisticated now. We don't believe those fairy tales. Although I guess Calvin was a Seth
00:08:59.480guy so it was a little bit yeah there were some guys but it really became mainstream it was
00:09:04.540something um i forget his name but yeah there were some old guys because i remember teaching
00:09:09.500on it a while back and and i took the seth view because i was cool and yeah and now now i'd rather
00:09:14.640have fun and yeah we have more fun no i i i do think that it's right though uh also i mean i
00:09:22.180love my sethite guys right but uh but i think that they're wrong about this but anyway if you
00:09:26.720take the supernatural view of Genesis 6, 1 through 4, then the most likely candidate for the sons of
00:09:34.560God who fell are the watchers, this category of angelic beings called the watchers. And we're
00:09:39.820informed by the first book of Enoch a little bit there, because that work is cited in Jude and
00:09:45.5202 Peter. So that kind of helps us see how they were thinking through this issue. But then the
00:09:50.400offspring that they produce with human women are the Nephilim. We believe that they're giants,1.00
00:09:54.900The Septuagint just very casually calls them giants in its rendering of Genesis 6-4.
00:13:21.140it was um because of what was going on with the nephro you have a you have a physical superiority
00:13:27.300that allows for the intentions of the heart the evil on the inside to have far greater
00:13:33.920manifestations outside does that make sense would you agree with that no that i think that makes
00:13:40.180total sense the so that's part of what's going on and that's part of the you know the justification
00:13:44.040not that god needs any if it was just people god would still be justified in destroying the wicked
00:13:47.840because he does that in hell but but it does help you know more to understand like why why
00:13:52.960wasn't there an attempt to just reform the world why why destroy the world by water well because
00:13:59.420part of what you have running around is not just bad people but but bad half demon half man yeah
00:14:05.240people and so that's yeah that's crazy so anyway so watchers nephilim go on you were you were
00:14:11.360describing the was there more that you were going to say no i no i mean that's basically it the
00:14:17.180The trouble that you run into with taking this view, and it comes from the Sethite view as well, no view is immune to this problem, is that it seems because of clear statements in Scripture, especially in Numbers and Deuteronomy, that there exists in the land of Canaan after the flood, it says descendants of the Nephilim.
00:14:39.740Presumably, that's direct descendants of the Nephilim.
00:14:42.580So to paint the picture really clearly, you have antediluvian world. Watchers come down because they're lusting after women. They have sex with them. They procreate and the Nephilim appear on the earth. You then have the flood that we would all agree wipes that out.0.84
00:15:02.420So there's total destruction. The Nephilim are done away with. And then after the flood, you somehow, some generations later, have this group of people that the Bible calls descendants of the Nephilim.1.00
00:15:15.820And so that's really where the fun starts. You know, you can talk about how the spirits of the Nephilim, the disembodied spirits of the Nephilim are what the Second Temple Jews would just assume were demons.0.84
00:15:30.620So the people that Christ were, or the things that Christ was casting out of these people in the land of Capernaum and Galilee were disembodied Nephilim spirits, demons.0.55
00:15:43.720But I think that the really interesting question is how did they come back, so to speak, or did they come back?
00:15:50.620Is it some kind of like lesser version of the Nephilim, but we can still call them that.0.96
00:15:55.680And so that was one of the things that we were talking about before we started recording is what kind of theories are there that allow for the flood to occur, totally obliterate everything that's not on the ark, which, of course, we would all agree with.0.98
00:16:09.500And yet, somehow we have descendants of the Nephilim in the land that Israel has to go in and drive out after the flood.0.98
00:16:24.960Yeah, yeah. Let's ping pong theory. So the one that I currently hold to, but it is one that I hold pretty loosely, is that the syntax of Genesis 6-4 allows for there to be multiple events of this type. Before and after the flood, Genesis 6-4 gives freedom for it to be interpreted as angels falling, creating Nephilim with human women, both before and after the flood, multiple times.
00:16:52.660So you could have literally just the same event happening throughout history before and after the flood. And that kind of lessens the punch of the flood in that regard. And it kind of says like, well, why the flood then? Why the flood? If it had anything to do with that, then why then if it was just going to happen again after? But let's hear your theory too.
00:17:17.180yeah so and when ben says for the listener when he says multiple events the event you're talking
00:17:22.900about is angels falling from heaven yes yes right so he's saying specifically falling from heaven
00:17:27.960to interbreed with human women right so you're saying that it's not just that a third of the
00:17:33.480angels you know like a third of the stars swept out of heaven in a singular moment that that may
00:17:38.820be as well but there were also other angels uh that that angels uh rebelled against god so we're
00:17:45.760talking about falling in the sense of of sinning against god rebelling against god but then also
00:17:50.180quite literally falling from heaven in the sense of moving physically geographically to earth for
00:17:56.940the express purpose of creating a um posterity for yeah and so and you're saying uh that one
00:18:04.000theory the syntax in genesis 6 4 allows for that to happen uh that event to happen more than once
00:18:09.980that happened pre-flood and then happened again after the flood and the reason why we're insisting
00:18:13.880or at least saying that it's plausible um that it would happen again after the flood is because we
00:18:20.000have one or two texts in the book of numbers and i think you said there's another text in
00:18:24.160deuteronomy that talk about the nephilim after the flood right we have the 10 wicked spies
00:18:29.340israelite spies but they're wicked because they're filled with unbelief and not trusting the promises0.88
00:18:34.520of god right and cowards will will be in the lake of fire so wicked is an appropriate term for the0.98
00:18:39.360counter but these 10 wicked wicked spies um you know they go with joshua and caleb 12 and all0.55
00:18:44.940but 10 return and bring a bad report of of the land and say that we were like grasshoppers in
00:18:50.580our eyes uh and that the nephilim were there with them and um and so then some guys like the seth
00:18:56.300ike guys you know they would um they would say you know well um you know you know we were like
00:19:01.500because this doesn't just say nephilim you know men of renown but then also says physically we're
00:19:05.760like grasshoppers we were small you know so then that that gets real tough to say that the nephilim
00:19:10.280weren't actual giants um but then you know some guys would say well that this just uh this just
00:19:16.080is meant to further indict those 10 wicked spies and their unbelief um because they're actually
00:19:21.660lying lying saying that there's there's giants because they're so cowardly that they don't want0.92
00:19:26.120to face them or or maybe even psychologically they believed that they were like grasshoppers
00:19:30.520and these guys were five times their size uh because they just they couldn't even think straight
00:19:34.940because they were so given into fear um or or the alternative is uh that they're actual giants yeah
00:19:41.840and you know and that the the nephilim happened again so my point is the reason why ben for the
00:19:46.660listener is saying there could have been um multiple events events referring to angels falling
00:19:51.980from heaven to earth for the express purpose of creating nephilim half angel half half man
00:19:57.140by breeding with the daughters of men is because you know uh the nephilim aren't just uh in existence
00:20:04.640before the flood, but we see them again after the flood light numbers. So just real quick,
00:20:11.400one important thing that I think will be important in contrasting your theory is that these are
00:20:17.620different angels. It's not the same angels doing it over and over again. It's angels do it,
00:20:23.940they're judged, more angels do it. And so that's just important. It's different angels each time.
00:20:29.800yep that's helpful um so so my theory take a little bit of framework but so adam and eve were
00:20:36.300created uh without us in nature they were created in a state of integrity um and so they were able
00:20:41.680to fall um but they were not yet fallen um so a state of integrity um but not immutable integrity
00:20:47.940able to fall and so you and i i think agree on this in terms of our our you know pre-lapsarian
00:20:53.920view of uh you know that that adam so i i like to use the words eternal and forever life and
00:21:00.120bifurcating that i'll explain the ways that i'm using the two terms of forever and eternal
00:21:04.520but adam had forever life without eating of the tree of of life he did not need to eat of the tree
00:21:10.500of life to uh to gain forever life he he actually only needed to not eat of the tree of the knowledge
00:21:15.720of good and evil to maintain forever life god said the day that you eat of it the bad tree the
00:21:21.060tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The day that you eat of it, you shall surely die. So in
00:21:24.720order for Adam to not die, aka live forever, he didn't need to eat from the good tree, tree of
00:21:31.020life. He needed to just not eat from the bad tree, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
00:21:35.400I believe that the purpose of the tree of life was that Adam and Eve were in a probationary period
00:21:41.620in a state of integrity in the garden and that there was a definite end to this. We don't know
00:21:47.040exactly what that end was, but eventually Adam would have passed the test. If he had guarded
00:21:51.900the garden, if he had protected his wife, provided for her, cared for her, obeyed the word of the
00:21:57.100Lord, resisted temptation, watched over his wife, killed the serpent or sent it, you know, fought it
00:22:01.660and got it out of the garden, the whole nine yards. If he had done that well, then God would
00:22:06.880have held out to Adam the fruit of the tree of life. And upon eating of the fruit of the tree
00:22:13.640of life adam who already had forever life by just not eating of the tree of the knowledge of good
00:22:18.640and evil he then by eating of the tree of of life he would attain not just forever life but eternal
00:22:24.620life eternal the way i'm using it is not just now in a state of integrity with death having not
00:22:30.780entered the world but now a state of immutable integrity uh where he is not fallen and also now
00:22:37.080not able to fall yeah and so that that's what i'm arguing there okay so now apply that to angels and
00:22:43.080watches if there are multiple fallings um one of the things that's difficult you know we we watch
00:22:49.040previous you know i mean we read history books we read the bible you know the best history book0.91
00:22:53.460there is um and we see prior generations of mankind doing really stupid things i mean just0.99
00:22:59.640just really stupid things the dumbest things and and paying the price i mean a hefty price you know0.99
00:23:05.660and just, and, and yet generation comes and generation goes and, and yet each one, we never0.99
00:23:13.680really learn, you know, that, that, you know, there'll be a fresh batch of people and they'll
00:23:17.500think, but has socialism really ever been tried, you know? And, and, and it's like, how, how? Well,
00:23:23.460one of the ways that we can explain that is because human beings, each generation, it may be a new
00:23:27.640group of people. They may have the history books. They may be able to look and see these lessons
00:23:32.140that people learn the hard way by doing terrible things and the consequences that, you know,
00:23:36.780came about. And yet this fresh batch of people, this new generation have, they're totally depraved.0.92
00:23:42.860They have a sin nature because Adam and all his posterity are now born under the curse of sin.
00:23:48.500And so that explains why, you know, we could look at Adam and Eve's fall and we could look at this
00:23:52.900person's fall and that person's fall and that person's fall and still fall ourselves and still
00:23:56.900make bad choices. Angels though, however, if it's multiple fallings, multiple events of angels
00:24:02.580falling, the difficulty for me is that the angels that did not fall the first time. So if you have
00:24:08.120the first batch of watchers pre-flood, antediluvian world, they fall and come into the daughters of0.99
00:24:15.900men, find them lovely and produce offspring. But then this is wiped out in the flood. And now we're
00:24:22.080saying another batch of angels well those angels this next batch of angels is not like um like uh
00:24:28.380another generation of angels they're they're angels that have watched the whole thing go down
00:24:33.360yeah and they don't have a sin nature they don't they're not totally depraved like future generations
00:24:38.460of man um they actually they're not just reading about it in a history book they watched these
00:24:43.780angels fall they watched god's judgment of them uh they they watched the consequences and and they
00:24:50.780watched it from a state of integrity without a sin nature um which to me seems very compelling
00:24:56.780that that they would not say okay and but but maybe this time socialism will work you know
00:25:02.620yeah yeah you know so that's that would be my position so then how do we have nephilim after
00:25:07.380the flood one like i already said well maybe the 10 spies are just being super cowardly and saying
00:25:12.460they're giants when really they were like six foot four instead of six foot one you know um that
00:25:18.180but i don't think that i think actual nephilim um happened again in numbers these are actual
00:25:24.180giants actual hybrid offspring of of fallen angels again another but not another batch i'm
00:25:30.820sorry not another batch but the watchers this would be my view and i got this by thinking a
00:25:35.680little bit about you and brian and and listening to your very first episode of the sea serpent
00:25:41.180and and you guys talked about like how like there'd be more demonic activity for instance
00:25:46.260in nations uh that aren't christianized in pagan nations right and then if a nation becomes
00:25:52.560christianized like sure there's the c.s lewis aspect of like okay well technology and innovation
00:25:58.360and development and so now demons are gonna you know they're gonna play a different strategy
00:26:02.500right and that totally makes sense to me and so you know flying under the banner of depression
00:26:06.660and some psychological disorder and schizophrenia you know or this or that um instead of just you
00:26:11.920know full full-blown you know witch doctor uh demonic kind of stuff because it's a different
00:26:17.300people and they're wanting to fly into the radar and and not be found out that makes sense to me
00:26:21.520also i think the west has had a little bit just i think they're coming back but a little bit less
00:26:26.420demonic activity because the west for the last you know 1500 years if you constantine but certainly
00:26:32.280a thousand years with king alfred has been christianized yep and so the demons got their
00:26:36.640butts kicked and so they you know they went to some place in africa in south america for a while
00:26:40.720and and and so um but my point is with the watchers um the nephilim were wiped out because0.77
00:26:46.900these are the offspring of the fallen angels watchers and daughters of men so they're half
00:26:52.500human they have they have lungs they're giants they're superhuman but still they have lungs
00:26:57.300they have a beating heart they they need oxygen they're they're they're physical beings and so
00:27:02.080the flood was enough and it needed to be catastrophic it needed to be global in order
00:27:05.720to not just wipe out human beings wicked people but wicked super people yeah and it did i think0.56
00:27:10.920it was successful in wiping out the nephilim but the watchers themselves that are not half blood
00:27:16.500fallen angels but full blood uh fallen angels they're they're you know they're the the real
00:27:22.600deal the you know not a hybrid but the full full-blown angelic i'm wondering could they
00:27:28.220have survived the flood could they have taken on you know the form of like a sea serpent for
00:27:34.700instance and and survive the flood now some of them going to jude and and the book of enoch talks
00:27:41.400about that but um we know that some of them were locked away in gloomy dungeons and so i i'm
00:27:46.380thinking that god sent you know some some angels the flood to wipe out the nephilim and and man
00:27:51.800and then some angels um to to go and bind up and lock away in gloomy dungeons some of these watchers
00:27:59.500but maybe some of the watchers were missed by by the angels that they somehow escaped took on the
00:28:05.760form of a sea serpent whatever escaped in the flood god of course being sovereign overall allowed
00:28:10.720them to escape and then these are the ones who then again after the flood generations later came0.74
00:28:16.460into the daughters of man a second time created a new batch of nephilim blah blah so that's that's
00:28:21.660kind of my theory and what i'm thinking there and then you and i think we also both agree that in
00:28:25.760terms of these gloomy dungeons uh you and i both have some some theories on what's under the earth
00:28:31.800yeah yeah these gloomy dungeons maybe being literal physical places yeah under our feet i do
00:28:37.920think they are i'll say one thing too just for the listeners to kind of help them think through the
00:28:42.880these two uh views so when we talk about man falling okay and then all of man now is totally
00:28:52.860depraved. The reason that that is, is because Adam was our federal covenant head. He represented
00:28:59.580man before God. And so if he fell, man falls. But the opposite's also true. If Adam prevails,
00:29:06.580we also are born righteous in a state of immutable integrity before God. Immutable,
00:29:12.360positive holiness. You'd agree that's just the basic reformed view. It's pointless because it
00:29:17.720didn't happen. But if it did happen, that would be the case. The angels aren't like that, though.
00:29:21.960The angels don't procreate like human beings in their normal state.
00:29:26.380So when we hear in the confession that there are elect and non-elect angels, that election is not.
00:29:51.960the positive obedience of one angelic group doesn't determine the positive obedience of
00:29:56.340another because they're different. So I could see the argument and I would probably make this
00:30:00.920argument if I was really trying to like debate it, but I could see the argument that because
00:30:05.500of how different humans are from the angelic category, you could, you could conceivably have
00:30:12.620a group of angels that watch this event happen. And as they watch it, they are still in that
00:30:19.980state of integrity. But since there's no federal headship in the angelic world, they're still able
00:30:26.220to fall. So, you know, there's no, as far as we know, there's no singular moment where angels
00:30:32.960suddenly just in mass stop becoming able to sin before the final day of judgment.
00:30:39.680And I think that, I think that Berkhoff's view is pretty compelling that each angel eventually
00:30:44.400reaches a stage where they're no longer able to disobey, but we have no way of speculating as to
00:30:49.660win that whereas adam would have done it for all of us exactly because he's a federal head of all
00:30:53.900his posterity yes because of reproduction because of fatherhood that because he's a patriarch father
00:30:59.140rule but angels don't have they don't have fathers right they have they've gone the father yeah but
00:31:05.060but but they don't have yeah exactly so it's it's one batch of angels um it's not one man and then
00:31:12.780from him he begot so-and-so who begot so-and-so who begot so-and-so um that so you're totally
00:31:19.280right so that's and so i like i like that the idea of burkhoff's view that each angel individually
00:31:25.460um without federal federalism each angel individually having just like adam would
00:31:31.140have had like some kind of probationary period whatever that looked like and probably you know
00:31:35.560always attached to my my guess would be a task an assignment yeah so almost like it's kind of funny
00:31:40.680but a wonderful life you know when an angel gets its wings you know when an angel goes in and so
00:31:45.300probably for the watchers and i like you know all the way back to the beginning of our conversation
00:31:48.700but like you know some the seraphim you you were mentioning that to me offline and that was really
00:31:53.620helpful for me i actually hadn't thought about that but you said like that they're you know
00:31:57.820they're standing before the presence of god they're facing god yeah right so there are some
00:32:01.880angels that in quite literally in a literal sense are like they have a a god-facing ministry
00:32:07.560assignment but there are other angels that are very interested in the affairs of men and not
00:32:12.340in a sense that like they find men more interesting than god but but by design by god's order his
00:32:18.160decree. He is like Hebrews. It says, are angels not ministering spirits that are called, I forget0.99
00:32:25.100the exact verbiage, but called to help the sons of men who are to inherit salvation, the elect
00:32:31.020people. So there is a category of angels per Hebrews that exists, was created by God to give
00:32:40.080him praise and worship, but to also honor him by fulfilling man-facing assignments, man-oriented
00:32:47.740assignments particularly men who are elect called to salvation and so perhaps these angels for the
00:32:53.800watchers for the seraphim god-facing angels perhaps it's it's different you know but for
00:32:59.580the watchers it could totally make sense that each one individually apart from federal headship
00:33:03.780each one individually task-based assignment-based as they go and help that that elect person called
00:33:11.120to salvation like hebrews talks about and and succeed uh that they the angel gets its wings so
00:33:16.760wings being the angel already in a state of integrity no no sin having never sinned but now
00:33:22.780moving from a state of forever you know to eternal from a state of integrity to a state of immutable
00:33:28.620integrity now not fallen but also not fallen and unable to ever fall um totally yeah i mean
00:33:36.740if you think about the the typology of church officers uh you know you have the bishop elder
00:33:43.980pastor, if you take two, three office view, whatever, you have this guy or a group of guys
00:33:49.880who represent to the church Christ. They are the ones that God said, you are the shepherds of my
00:33:57.700flock. You have the keys of the kingdom and you will represent me directly to the people. Well,
00:34:04.040then you also have this office of deacon that is the minister, the assistant to the elders,
00:34:09.540much like how we would think of just in really basic terms, the angels are the assistance of
00:34:14.780God. They're carrying out God's providential decree on the earth. And he, because he just
00:34:19.520seems to want it to be done that way. And so if you think about that, well, then you look at the
00:34:25.220qualification for a deacon and you're like, oh, well, that's kind of a cool connection that he's
00:34:30.120supposed to hold the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. And he's supposed to be tested
00:34:34.060first and proved right. And then he can take the office. And so if you think about how,
00:34:40.820you know, Berkhoff's view of the angels is that each one would have this probationary period.
00:34:45.720And I really like your idea that it's oriented towards a specific task. Well, that is like the
00:34:51.160heavenly or the unseen diaconate in the world where each one is given this task and he's tested
00:34:58.460or she, whatever you call an angel, pronouns, they, them, but each one is tested. And then
00:35:05.140upon successful completion of the test, they would be out of their probationary period and in this
00:35:15.300immutable state of integrity. That's a really interesting idea. Yeah. I think that totally
00:35:19.220makes sense. With my theory, you're absolutely right. So no federal headship, not necessarily
00:35:26.620an immutable state of integrity but what i'm arguing is that even apart from an immutable
00:35:32.320state of integrity just by a state of integrity alone angels one group of angels watching another0.97
00:35:38.620group of angels rebel against god and then and then get their butts kicks kicked by god and
00:35:45.420locked away in gloomy dungeons um you know that these guys over here even though they're still
00:35:52.060able to fall that they would still look at that from from without a sin nature from a state of
00:35:56.720integrity and say no no you know whereas whereas us as human beings we look at past other generations
00:36:06.260of human beings who have done terrible things and and the reason why it's different than angels is
00:36:14.520because we have a sin nature so we can say that was a really bad idea i don't know why he did that
00:36:19.720and then yet we still make mistakes ourselves sometimes the very same mistakes um but it makes
00:36:25.260more sense from a human standpoint because um because of the sin nature even for the christian
00:36:32.660who who is now redeemed and has a new heart and has the spirit of god dwelling within them
00:36:37.480even for the christian there's something to be said uh you know with roman 7 what i want to do
00:36:42.500this i cannot do but the evil that i do not want to do this i keep on doing oh what a wretched man
00:36:46.740i am who can save me from this body of death right that the soul has been saved but there's still
00:36:51.760this sense of the body and glorification that's um that that is being awaited and that of course
00:36:57.680that you know i just showed my hand i i think that paul that's a post-conversion i think paul's
00:37:01.920writing as a christian romans 7 some would disagree with that position i understand but
00:37:05.700anyways all that being said even for if if i'm right about that that this is paul romans 7
00:37:10.200talking about how he keeps doing the the evil the sin that he doesn't want to do and it's the
00:37:15.780apostle paul as a christian saying that then certainly um a non-christian person is going to
00:37:22.920give in but the angel would be different to me because even though he's not immutable he's never
00:37:29.000sinned before and so even if there's a curiosity it's like all right i'm watching how'd it go for
00:37:35.260you not well okay let's uh take note of that but i don't i don't know so anyway so it could be
00:37:42.340multiple fallings or it could be the the nephilim themselves the hybrid offspring of these watchers
00:37:49.680fallen angels are wiped out in the flood but some of the watchers themselves locked in gloomy dungeons
00:37:55.100under the earth in caverns that are there right now today yes that are literally caverns yep or
00:38:02.460and i should say not or and some of them locked away but some of them taking on morphing into
00:38:09.040sea serpents surviving the the torrents of water in the flood and then and then the same so the
00:38:15.640same group a lesser number of them this time but the same group doing it again um and that's the
00:38:21.820nephilim that we find in the book of numbers so that's so it's either as a second a different
00:38:26.080batch of watchers angels falling in a second event a second falling after the flood or it's
00:38:33.660some of the the nephilim are wiped out but some of those watchers some of that first batch survive
00:38:38.620the flood aren't locked up in gloomy dungeons and they do it again one of those things and that's
00:38:42.900how we get nephilim i wasn't going to say this because it spoils a little bit of a future episode
00:38:49.280of haunted cosmos but say yeah i have to say it because i'm really liking what you're saying
00:38:56.240that some of the watchers are still around still active um it's easy if you take my stance to get
00:39:05.720into this position where there is no watcher activity whatsoever. It's just disembodied
00:39:10.180Nephilim spirit activity. The reason that I don't like that is because if you look at the message
00:39:15.200that alien abductees are receiving from these aliens, if you believe their stories at all,
00:39:21.240if you just suspend disbelief and listen to what they say, what they'll tell you oftentimes is that
00:39:29.380the aliens are abducting them. And part of the fundamental reason why is because they they're
00:39:35.780trying to create a hybrid race of them and human beings. And so you can say, well, all the Nephilim0.91
00:39:43.000spirits, you know, they learned this from their dads and they're still trying to just do it. And0.84
00:39:47.240so they they fly around and flying saucers trying to deceive man or or if you're right, you can just
00:39:55.060say like no it's just literally the same play by the same people it's not even it's not chips off
00:40:00.840the old block it's the old block it's the old block it's it's the it's the simplest thing in
00:40:06.080the world like literally are we just dumb they're doing the exact same thing so i do like that we
00:40:11.400get into that in episode 10 of season one so so stay tuned for that but it's a good little easter
00:40:15.980egg yeah that's a great one so yeah so i think i think that's totally possible so now let's talk
00:40:20.780a little bit about um caverns under the earth yes uh angels fallen angels watchers being locked
00:40:29.040away in in actual literal physical uh gloomy dungeons on this planet under under this ground
00:40:36.020and i'd like to as we explore that as we explore these caverns i'd like to also uh explore the
00:40:43.300idea of not just uh angels being locked away but uh what else might be down there yes under the
00:40:49.020ground. Yes. So why don't you start? What do you think? Sure. Other, other things besides Bigfoot
00:40:54.900that are clear. If you got something on Bigfoot, feel free. Yeah, I do. I do genuinely think that's
00:41:02.180true, but I don't have, I don't have a defense for it. It just smells good. Yeah. So we're told
00:41:08.500that the angels are locked in chains under the earth. And I think that that's literal. And the
00:41:12.660reason that i think that is because you have the story in in it's in luke uh and christ is telling
00:41:19.620a parable about the the rich man and lazarus right and lazarus dies he's taken to abraham's bosom
00:41:26.800and from abraham's bosom he can see this rich man that used to oppress him in life and the rich man
00:41:33.520can see lazarus and they're and they're not physical anymore they're in a spiritual state
00:41:39.680and yet they're able to see one another. They're localized spirits and they're able to shout at
00:41:45.580one another. And Abraham is able to shout back at this rich man as well. And even in a spiritual
00:41:49.740state also recognize one. Yeah. Yeah. Also recognize one another. And so, yeah, exactly.
00:41:55.640So now we have a category that's really, really weird of spiritual people, people that are
00:42:02.020disembodied souls at this point, living in the earth, presumably because Sheol has spoken about
00:42:09.640only in terms of it being in the belly of the earth, literally. Right. And yet there's an open0.78
00:42:14.440space. They can see one another, talk to one another and recognize one another. So I think
00:42:19.880that within this, this massive category of Sheol, you have a bunch of different neighborhoods.0.97
00:42:25.160So you have the Sheol of the damned, which is where the normal human guy who dies a reprobate0.87
00:42:31.900will go to await final judgment and it's torment there. It's not good. It's not a place you want
00:42:37.220to be. You also have Tartarus, which is this separate kind of neighborhood that I believe
00:42:42.860that's where the fallen angels are bound. You know, whichever ones are bound, whether it's all
00:42:47.940of them or some, that's where they are. And then you have this really paradisical neighborhood,
00:42:51.400which is Abraham's bosom, but it's no longer there because now Abraham's bosom was carried
00:42:56.620up into the presence of the Lord by Christ upon his ascension and resurrection and ascension.0.67
00:43:01.920And so, you know, you could say that Sheol got a little bit bigger for the reprobates, but I think that those are literal places. I think that there is a massive space in the earth or multiple spaces in the earth where disembodied souls go.
00:43:18.580um i that's a very medieval idea but it also seems to be the plain reading of the text that
00:43:24.620i don't think we're i don't think god is tricking us here and i also don't think he's just dumbing
00:43:29.740things down to some sort of uh metaphor that we can understand i think that he's actually just
00:43:35.160telling us this the actual state of things so i think that there's not only fallen angels chained
00:43:41.460in the earth i think that there's also reprobate souls who are damned in the earth awaiting final
00:43:46.260judgment. And I think that the souls of the saints also used to be living in the earth and bound to
00:43:52.080the earth. And you can look at, you know, in a good paradise place, but yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Really
00:43:56.680good place. Abraham's bosom. Yeah. Yeah. But first Samuel 28, you have the witch of Endor scene.
00:44:01.960And I believe it's first Samuel 28. Called up. But yeah, you have Samuel called up. You know,
00:44:07.260you'd think that a saint would come down. And some commentators will try to say, well, clearly that
00:44:12.640means that this is a demon who's trying to deceive Saul but that's just not what the bible says it
00:44:17.740says that it's Samuel multiple times it refers to him as Samuel both in the proper noun sense and
00:44:23.000then in the pronoun sense as well and so you have to why would a demon rebuke Saul like a demon
00:44:27.640encourage Saul for that action like hey you're doing this thing that God hates and I really
00:44:32.100like it keep doing more of it you know but like but it sounds like Samuel um yeah material Saul
00:44:38.400recognizes, yep, that's Samuel. What does he look like? So there's still like a physical,
00:44:42.680I mean, it is spiritual, but with an appearance that can be recognized, manifesting some kind
00:44:48.900of appearance that can be seen and recognized. But then it's not just the way that the spirit
00:44:53.460looks, but when the spirit speaks, there's a rebuke of Saul. That is something that a righteous
00:45:01.700Samuel would have said. Yeah, exactly. So I think that at the very minimum, before Christ came and
00:45:09.300did his mediating work in time, you had three groups of beings in the earth, the reprobate,
00:45:16.600the saint, and also the fallen angel. But however, I do genuinely think that Bigfoot is a disembodied
00:45:25.020Nephilim spirit, and I think that those can certainly be in Sheol as well.0.75
00:45:29.200So I'm with you on all of it, except for Bigfoot. But the good news is that I could probably be one over. So you guys wait for a Bigfoot episode. Yeah, get to that episode. And, and, you know, I'll, I'll give it a hearing. I'm not one over by Mothman. But I don't know, Bigfoot, just give it time. You got to let it simmer in your mind.
00:45:49.560okay um so all right so here's here's some of my theories of under the earth uh so everything you
00:45:56.980said 100 um except for the bigfoot part well you and me both i mean i don't yeah who knows but we're
00:46:03.020not sure but the other ones i i agree with you 100 i i feel fairly confident that that's that
00:46:09.220that's the case a little bit of background theology for the listener um with uh with um
00:46:17.180And Jesus, you know, so basically what I'm trying to get at is a descent to hell.
00:46:23.520So we, you know, we do the Apostles' Creed and we say descent to Hades.
00:46:28.200You know, he descended to Hades on the third day he rose again.
00:46:31.600And so what we're trying to say is that he descended to the realm of the dead.
00:50:33.860Okay, so here's all I know. I know that it's something that I'm tempted to just say like,
00:50:40.200yeah i'm i'm i'm in it it smells good i'm bought in but my understanding of it is that the of
00:50:49.040course the elites are lying to us that water is not some finite resource on the earth but rather
00:50:56.860water is all the time being created by the pressures and and all the different elements
00:51:02.940in the earth and of course by god's sovereign hand over all those things and so we get new
00:51:07.720springs popping up all the time, which is true. That's just true. The difference is that the
00:51:14.200primary water people, and correct me if I'm wrong, are saying that that's actually new water that's
00:51:19.300being made. It's not just the same water that's being recycled and put up in a new location
00:51:23.960because of ventilation shafts from the center of the earth or something. And so what you have is
00:51:29.240a government psyop that's trying to tell you everyone needs to be afraid all the time.
00:51:33.260Well, this is like precious resource in the world. Yeah. And it's running out water. And yeah. Yeah. And so you have like a Mad Max situation where everyone's just killing each other over water when the reality is, no, that's not a fear that that we should have. That's not a that's not a feature of the curse. And instead, we actually have plenty of water. We just have lost the wherewithal of our surroundings to know where it is and how to find it. So is that is that kind of?
00:52:00.680absolutely you nailed it and you're gonna love this because i'm gonna get to atlantis but uh
00:52:05.240so with but so with that 100 agree um in terms of just the character and nature of god here's
00:52:13.040what christians have to believe this is why some of these things they they met all these things
00:52:16.560matter um but this is just one you know theology applied all right so let me apply it to the
00:52:21.100character and nature of god god is not capricious god is not cruel um god did not command us in our
00:52:28.020very origin as mankind to do the very thing that he knew secretly would bring about our own demise
00:52:34.640right god doesn't say be fruitful multiply and then behind closed doors he's
00:52:39.300just this is how the the whole you know human race will end by obeying my command because i'm
00:52:47.560god and i give really bad commands that hurt people like i mean think about that first if
00:52:52.840you're a christian you you have got you have got to completely mortify the overpopulation myth
00:53:00.380yeah you like you are not allowed to be a christian and believe um in the goodness of god his
00:53:06.840character and his law word that that what god commands is not only that which is morally right
00:53:12.520but that also which is good um you you cannot be a christian and and have a biblical view of the
00:53:19.040character of god and think that um that we shouldn't have a bunch of kids 100 agree so so
00:53:24.640we'll start with that so that's step one um so now thinking of that um we cannot believe that
00:53:32.460the context the habitat environment that god created for us to multiply in um that it would be
00:53:39.080that it would be a zero-sum game that it would be uh something that yeah well you sure you can
00:53:45.420multiply but you know if if you're the more obedient to god you are aka the more children
00:53:51.040you have the more multiply the more obedient uh to god you have the less you'll actually be
00:53:56.780rewarded you'll have to you'll have to split that pie more ways and each person gets a smaller slice
00:54:03.520um that's just simply not the that's not the character of god so i believe that that resources
00:54:09.660are finite um but but that they're not um that they're not they're finite but they're plentiful
00:54:16.860yes um and and and there's far more than we've yet to discover so when you think of you know
00:54:23.02060 million babies over the last 49 years you know um murdered in their mother's wombs and you think
00:54:30.380well 60 million uh less males defeat well we've already talked about theology our view of god
00:54:35.940that he's not capricious, he's not cruel. But working down from that and what the Bible says
00:54:40.280about anthropology, our view of man, do you see man as a leech, as a parasite? Or do we see man
00:54:47.540as a lowercase c creator, not able to create ex nihilo like God out of nothing, but a creator
00:54:54.940nonetheless in the image of God, needing resources and materials to create with, but able to reproduce
00:55:01.740and create and multiply the resources that god has given us in extraordinary ways so disney if
00:55:07.900you think of what's the pagans anthropology it's exactly the opposite of the christians
00:55:12.080the pagan is going to say that on the inside follow your heart because on the inside your
00:55:17.800intentions your inward intent and motives and true person deep down is really really good0.98
00:55:24.060but on the outside people are like parasites every person that's born is just another mouth
00:55:30.120to feed and so it'd be better to have less of them that is the liberals the progressives view of man0.84
00:55:35.180on the outside bat he's a liability on the inside good um a sweet little heart the christian's view
00:55:43.860is exactly the opposite that apart from from saving grace in christ jesus upon initial physical
00:55:50.680birth every human being that enters the world on the inside totally depraved on the outside
00:55:56.480bearing the image of god and able to create suspension bridges eventually cure cancer and
00:56:01.480you know the whole nine so we believe exactly the opposite we believe on the inside probably
00:56:05.960shouldn't follow your heart you're not that sweet you're not that cute on the outside
00:56:09.760good golly um that like the sky is the limit you know atomic bombs are are in the cards and and so
00:56:17.540is you know the cure for all kinds of diseases and so so we literally believe the exact same0.50
00:56:21.900exact opposite thing that the pagan believes about mankind now all that being said i believe
00:56:27.180that there's so many things that we've yet to discover and one of those i think is a plethora
00:56:33.000of of water under the earth um new water that's being created but then also water that's already
00:56:39.820there and i think part of this explains so not only the flood with a flood you have the canopy
00:56:45.580of water being being broken and pouring out on the world um but you also have the the great springs
00:56:51.420of the deep opening up. And I think in their opening up, as the world was beginning to flood,
00:56:56.580I think that that's part of where the good angels, God commissioned them to come and take the
00:56:59.980watchers, the fallen angels, and take them as these great springs and caverns are being opened
00:57:04.580in the world. And as the flood is starting to commence, the good angels are going down
00:57:10.340into those springs and locking up those watchers, those fallen angels under the earth, like what
00:57:17.040we talked about earlier. But so we know water under the earth is springing forth during the
00:57:21.140flood but then i'm also thinking of peter uh that says that uh that the earth was formed um from
00:57:27.200water uh that you know that the spirit hovered you know and then genesis the spirit was hovering
00:57:31.920above the water it was without uh void and without form um but but the water was uh the earth was
00:57:38.720formed out of water and so my my thought is one i think there's plenty of resources we're going to
00:57:43.980discover more and more things and i i think that the world could host a trillion people i think
00:57:48.420We'd have a trillion people as a population and be just fine because we're going to discover more and more and more things and we're going to have more and more resources and all that.
00:57:59.980But all that being said, in terms of my view of the final return of Christ, I was thinking, okay, so on one hand, Peter says that the earth is destroyed by water, but then it'll be destroyed by fire.
00:58:11.540And that's where a lot of, you and I have been, you know, the Georgetown, Texas group and the Moscow group and the Ogden group, you know, we would differ from a lot of our reformed brothers in the sense that we don't believe that the world is going to be destroyed in the sense of being annihilated.
01:01:55.720Now, during that time that we're in the air, I think that one thing that will occur is
01:02:00.780just like the flood, they were spared on the ark, that we would actually be up in the air
01:02:05.740with Christ and with one another watching now, not the layer of water under the core
01:02:10.480open but the deeper layer of of fire open and consume christ enemies and then being swallowed
01:02:17.660up in the earth like we see uh in the days of moses in the wilderness um and and being swallowed
01:02:23.820up in the earth and that we're up here and that the fire now is is also reforming so you you think
01:02:29.720of like and all this in a time lapse perhaps you know like sped up but like there water brings life
01:02:35.460But there are tropical islands that only exist because of volcanic activity, that fire actually reshapes.
01:02:43.780It does, it destroys initially, but it could actually give birth to greater vegetation, greater life, greater, you know, all these things.
01:02:53.520And so, I'm wondering if, what if we're in the air and now, instead of like in the days of Noah, opening up the first layer, the great springs of the deep, the water under the earth, now it's even deeper than the water.
01:03:03.800We've already tapped into that in our post-millennial discovery of the world and sustaining our
01:03:08.220population of a trillion people strong, you know, and, and now it's the deeper layer of,
01:03:12.440of fire and that's opening up and consuming the adversaries of God, the earth, swallowing
01:10:24.420We were made during the days of creation.
01:10:27.280We're the crowning achievement of creation, so to speak.
01:10:30.400And so 1 Corinthians 15, when a person dies, they're buried in shame, but they're risen in glory.
01:10:35.580The same is true of the rest of creation.
01:10:37.320We don't look for an annihilated and completely brand spanking new ex nihilo earth because we don't look for a completely brand spanking new ex nihilo man.0.56
01:10:49.060We look for a glorified man and we're looking for a glorified creation too.0.85
01:10:53.080That's just basic reading of what the word says.
01:10:58.760To think otherwise, you get into all these crazy problems and frankly, it gets really close to Gnosticism too.
01:14:32.900So when Jesus comes, I don't think it'll be Jesus comes back and gets rid of the deserts.
01:14:37.800I think Jesus, when he comes back, it'll be glorified, so even greater.
01:14:42.200But I think, um, before he returns, um, that, that us redeemed man living out, um, uh, the
01:14:52.160cultural mandate and the great commission, both the great commission doesn't replace
01:14:56.080the cultural mandate, but comes alongside it by doing both, um, and the great commission
01:15:00.720succeeding, um, and, and the, uh, the cultural mandate as the great commission succeeds,
01:15:06.460the cultural mandate isn't something that we spurn and despise, but something we embrace.
01:15:10.420And I think, you know, and throw a little sprinkle, a little primary water into the equation, you know, and then, yeah, there's no more Sahara Desert.
01:15:18.660And Atlantis is brought back to her former glory, but without without the demons, without the demons.
01:15:27.440And then so let me just let me make sure I understand.
01:15:30.960So redeemed man does this amazing work of cultivating the earth and bringing about, you know, the fullest glory that we're capable of on the earth as redeemed, not glorified.
01:15:44.820And then at Christ's final return, we're taken away and there is this final judgment of fire on the earth and it's fully renovated and renewed, glorified.
01:15:56.400So that's good. So, you know, you get the postmillennial hope, but you avoid, you know, an over realized like a hyper realized eschatology because you're you're not denying the final judgment at all.
01:16:08.320I like that. Right. And thanks. I mean, primary water makes sense because primary water is.
01:16:13.760I don't mean this in the scriptural sense. I mean this in the scientific way. It's living water.
01:16:18.000It is, uh, it's structured water and a lot of the health problems that we have today
01:16:24.580are because we're lacking structured living water and, uh, and primary water gives us
01:16:30.360that fresh spring water gives us that.
01:17:13.220You can. No, thanks for having me on, Joel. You can find me on Twitter at Tom Pombadil, just like Tom Bombadil, but replace bomb with pawn P-A-W-N. It's a really dumb handle. If you can't find it, I won't be offended. Or you can follow us at Haunted Cosmos underscore. That's mostly Brian and I tweeting from there. And it's pretty much half and half. So it's kind of fun to have people guess who they think tweeted what.
01:17:41.180But you can find me at Haunted Cosmos on Twitter, at Tom Pommadil on Twitter.