In this episode, Pastor Joel Webbin sits down with Mike Winger to discuss Theonomy. Mike is a Christian YouTube personality with over a half-million subscribers. He has a reputation for being a liberal Christian, but also a conservative Christian. In this episode of Theology Applied, Pastor Webbin talks with Mike about Theonomy and what it means to be a Theologist.
00:03:09.240So the goal of this show for everybody watching is by the end of this show, Mike Winger is
00:03:14.280going to declare his allegiance as a theonomist. He's going to invite theonomy into his heart.
00:03:20.320And that's, no, that, I mean, that, that is kind of, you know, in a joking sense, I believe it's
00:03:25.360right. And so with all things that I believe are right, I certainly want to be as persuasive as
00:03:30.580possible in convincing other people with things that I think are biblically true. But, but the
00:03:34.460biggest thing that I wanted to do in inviting Mike on the show was Mike has a reputation. You
00:03:38.940have a reputation, Mike, I think within the Christian world, and especially within the
00:03:42.720Christian YouTube world, which I'm kind of learning this world. It's a very interesting
00:03:46.760world. But within this framework of all these people, I think they view you as, you've been
00:03:52.940very outspoken against progressive Christianity, liberal Christianity. So you're known as being
00:04:00.360thoroughly orthodox. But I think a lot of, in the same breath, a lot of people see you as being
00:04:06.200reasonable. So they're like, Mike Winger, he's not wacky, he's not woke, he's not progressive,
00:04:11.940but he's also, he's also, he's the kind of guy that I could, you know, that I could get behind.
00:04:19.140He's not extreme or he's not, you know, so I think you're viewed as kind of this moderate
00:04:24.460conservative instead of hard, you know, biblical thinker. And so I wanted to run some of these
00:04:30.180ideas by you, these doctrines that I've embraced over the last few years and understanding God's
00:04:36.780law and just have my audience your audience be able to hear your take does mike winger give this
00:04:43.220a check mark or does mike winger the the moderate reasonable yet also biblical christian say uh no
00:04:49.640that's that's extreme and way too far so that's that's kind of my idea for this episode yeah let
00:04:54.660me let me share a few things though my own little caveats yeah one is i don't have a problem with
00:04:59.580with signing up for something if it's like that that seems solidly biblical um sometimes though
00:05:04.120someone's going to give me a thought and I go, well, I have to just, I have to marinate on that.
00:05:07.240Like I just spend time on that. Even in my own studies, there's things where I, I'm convinced
00:05:11.280of something upon first studying it. And then I think, well, I'm not going to teach it yet. Like
00:05:15.580I need to just sit with this. And I think of other scriptures that are related, or I see it from a
00:05:20.100different angle. And then I go, boy, I'm glad I was patient. So I want to be very patient about
00:05:23.800that. But also, um, you know, I don't know much about theonomy and it's not really anywhere near,
00:05:28.660you know, my scheduled study times. Like I've got so many other things I'm going to cover.
00:05:33.420so this seemed like a great way to sort of learn about it a little bit almost it honestly this is
00:05:38.540kind of fun for me like i'm gonna for once i'm not being asked to make a case for something i'm just
00:05:43.320like listening to somebody else provide their explanation right there and some of your case
00:05:48.060for this sort of stuff and so to me that that's interesting discussion is interesting theological
00:05:52.200chat we can have but i will share with you my unfiltered thoughts about that stuff so i'm not
00:05:57.960gonna try and play the fence i hate when people do that right when they won't tell you what they
00:06:02.480really think. So, I won't do that. Cool. Thanks. All right. Well, so, okay. So, theonomy, just for
00:06:08.300our viewers, your viewers, everybody who's not familiar with the topic, theonomy is just, it's a
00:06:13.260combination of two words, theos and namos. Namos meaning law, theos. So, it's two Latin words.
00:06:19.420It's God's law. And so, I, you know, I would advocate and say that every, you know, not just
00:06:24.920a mere professing Christian or progressive Christian or somebody who, but every genuine
00:06:29.480regenerate christian born again true blue christian um delights in the law of god now you have to
00:06:36.420humor me a little bit here because you probably are aware i'm a calvinist and i know that you're
00:06:40.220you're not last last time i checked but but you've you know you've been respectful towards that
00:06:45.660doctrine but i am so i'm i'm going to look at that i'm gonna say all right you know once saved
00:06:49.240always saved security of the believer um the one point in the tulip that everyone in the christian
00:06:54.200world likes you know the one that they'll borrow not so much limited atonement but perseverance
00:06:57.580of the saints. So if someone's saved, they're not losing their salvation. And they have this
00:07:02.420new heart, malleable heart, softened, receptive to the things of God, the heart of stone taken
00:07:07.040away. And that the Christian, not only are they secure in their salvation, but they have a genuine
00:07:12.200desire to be pleasing to the Lord, right? And Jesus says, if you love me, you will obey my
00:07:17.820commandments. So I'm working with the first premise being that theonomy is God's law. God's
00:07:24.440law is a good thing it's not only the right thing but uh david delights in the law of god that it's
00:07:30.120that it's good that it lends towards blessing and not just eternal blessing in the life to come
00:07:34.340but that i and i would have this qualification ordinarily um obedience to god's law outward
00:07:40.300obedience to the law of god will bring even temporal intangible blessings in this life to
00:07:45.980varying degrees i say ordinarily because um it does depend what context you're in right you can
00:07:51.220obey God's law in North Korea, and it may not bring some of those temporal blessings.
00:07:55.540But in a nation like ours, that has remnants of Christianity and certain freedom and certain
00:08:02.040measures of justice within our system and those kinds of things, the person who applies
00:08:07.440the principles of Christ, even if they reject the person of Christ, they're unregenerate,
00:08:12.360but they simply outwardly live according to God's laws, God will not be mocked.
00:08:17.620a man reaps what he sows, a person who casts his seven, you know, bread upon the water. There's a
00:08:23.200return. There's a tangible benefit. So, I see the law of God not only is the right, morally right
00:08:28.120thing, but it's something that lends towards prosperity and blessing to varying degrees
00:08:32.860ordinarily in this life. And the regenerate Christian desires to please the Lord and sees
00:08:38.520that as a good thing. Thoughts? I guess for me to understand what you're saying here, I think I
00:08:44.720I wanted to know what you mean by the phrase God's law and maybe some examples of what that includes and and how that is the same or different from, say, the law of Moses.
00:08:57.140Right. Great question. So when I say God's law, I'm primarily in mind.
00:09:01.120I'm thinking of a woman going outside of the camp for seven days when she's on.0.66
00:09:20.460So I'm coming from a Reformed tradition.
00:09:22.660I'm a Reformed Baptist, and confessionally Reformed, not just Calvinistic Baptist, a Baptist who has adopted Reformed soteriology view of salvation, but confessionally Reformed is what I mean when I say Reformed.
00:22:40.300And so just like a precipice on your roof.
00:22:42.360And so, anyways, my point is a varied application based off of time and place and technology and culture, but a transcendent universal principle underneath.
00:22:53.320So, for now, I just want to kind of understand and comprehend the view, and then maybe I can offer some pushback.
00:23:01.300You know, in ways that would help me understand it even better, or maybe understand it where the biblical justifications that you, what you'd see as biblical justifications.
00:25:02.780But in it, though, there also is the God who gives that law has moral reasons.
00:25:09.540And the God who gives that law also understands leprosy and understands science and disease and pathogens and the way that they spread.
00:25:16.940And so you can actually look at some of these laws and say, but is there something from the most high God that we can learn who understands sickness better than we do and blah, blah, blah?
00:25:26.680you know but but then again it's like but how far can you stretch them because this was technically
00:25:31.240a ceremonial law and and it may be good for leprosy is it good for covid you know and and
00:25:37.760those kinds of so anyways i say all that to to agree with you and saying that it does get a bit
00:25:42.680hairy at times because the three divisions of the law i think is helpful and i think covers 98 percent
00:25:48.980of of most laws that we can look at in the old testament so yeah that that clearly is a civil
00:25:53.340code yes that clearly is a transcendent moral principle yes that clearly is um you know like
00:25:58.080a woman on her period um but those kinds of things but then there also is some of the moral reasons
00:26:03.040like like you know back in the day if you're not good if you don't have some of the the sanitation
00:26:08.160and high heat cooking mechanisms and all the things that we have then yeah pork will kill you
00:26:13.860you know and so maybe there you know what i mean so there are moral reasons but that these dietary
00:26:19.100restrictions and cleansing laws are first and foremost ceremonial. And we're saying Jesus
00:26:23.720fulfilled that. And when we use the word abrogated, just for the record on the ceremonial law,
00:26:28.800there is a sense in which some theonomists like Rushduni and these guys, they said, well,
00:26:33.520there is a sense in which the ceremonial law, it's not like God changed, right? Behold,
00:26:37.340I am the Lord, I changeth not. The ceremonial law continues in the sense that God is a thrice
00:26:42.480holy God and he demands that his people be clean. But the reason why it is abrogated in a sense,
00:26:49.880it is effectively abrogated, is not because God's cleansing laws no longer apply, but because
00:26:57.360Christ was such a sufficient and perfect final sacrifice and such a superior high priest,
00:27:06.000not in the order of Aaron, but in the order of Melchizedek, forever high priest. And because
00:27:09.500christ has entered the heavenly temple not the earthly temple made with human hands but but the
00:27:14.180substance of these shadows that we saw in the old covenant because christ has fulfilled the
00:27:19.180ceremonial laws so well and so finally um the ceremonial laws in a sense we could say do continue
00:27:26.700we just don't have to do anything about them anymore because they've all been done
00:27:29.660if that makes sense so i think i understand yeah so okay um keep me on track i feel like you're
00:27:38.540Helping bring us back to, okay, but what about the autonomy, Joel?
00:27:45.280Which, you know, I just kind of keep walking around an issue until I go, I can put it all in compartments and understand it better.
00:27:51.840So, you've got the moral law, which is 100% of the Ten Commandments is an essential part of the moral law.
00:28:00.860But you would say there's moral laws that spill out into other things that are throughout the law.
00:28:06.980like uh to to lie with a beast right that's not one of the ten commandments it has its root
00:28:12.900ultimately and thou shall not commit adultery the seventh commandment um but it's not specifically
00:28:17.620one of the ten commandments that you can't lie with a beast um yeah so yeah but that would be
00:28:22.340an example and then you have these but it seems like that whole area of of for theonomists would0.99
00:28:28.020be this very fuzzy area because if you were just following the law the way the jews did0.60
00:28:32.180it'd just be really straightforward right i mean even even even there is they historically made0.99
00:28:37.880this radically complicated but um but it would be fairly straightforward from a basic perspective
00:28:43.060right when you're not trying to like parse difficult cases when you're just looking at
00:28:46.980the basics it's like yeah it's all right there i just do exactly what it says it'd be straightforward
00:28:50.380but hard because there's so many oh yeah but but simple in the sense that it could all be
00:28:55.680easily known and wouldn't require any serious thought right yeah now what do you guys do with
00:29:01.540For example, a law about Israel or about the people who are under the law traveling to Jerusalem every year for various feasts and feasts in general.
00:29:15.720So, feasts, you know, seven main feasts in Israel's annual calendar, the Feast of Booze, you know, and then you have the Day of Atonement and Passover and all these things.
00:29:23.360We would say all that is belonging to the ceremonial law.
00:29:46.400We can now boldly approach the throne, not just the throne of David in Jerusalem at a
00:29:50.420temple, but the throne of God, because it's a throne of grace now, no longer any condemnation.
00:29:54.980So all those kinds of things, feasts, booths, day of atonement, dove offerings, grain offerings, and cleansing rituals and practices and dietary restrictions.
00:30:06.840Christ himself even said, we have that parenthetical statement in the gospel narratives, it is not what goes into a man's mouth that defiles him, but what comes out of his mouth.
00:30:15.440And thus, he declared all foods clean.
00:30:18.320And then we have a reiteration of that, speaking about the Gentiles, but also reiterating the basic, you know, the surface level principle of dietary restrictions being removed with Acts chapter 10 and Peter, you know, and the sheet from heaven, take and eat, kill and eat.0.62
00:30:34.220So, yeah, so that would, we would place that underneath the ceremonial category.
00:36:26.780So there's some kind of law that Paul's not under, but he's going to subject himself0.96
00:36:30.900anyways for the sake of winning the Jews.0.99
00:36:33.420And then there's this other law that when he's with the Gentiles, those who do not have0.88
00:36:38.760that one kind of law that he's actually not under, he's still going to behave even among the Gentiles0.83
00:36:43.720as though he's under this other law, because there's one law he's always under, no matter0.66
00:36:47.640what, and that is the law of God, which is also synonymous with the law of Christ. And I think
00:36:52.020he's talking about the 10 commandments, the moral law. I think he's bifurcating the ceremonial law
00:36:57.000and the moral law. That's my point. And so when he says we're not under the law, the text that
00:37:01.220you're referring to, I would say two things. One, I think there's a reference to ceremonial law,
00:37:05.260but but but in that text not so much in that text i i i think and if you can find that text for me i
00:37:11.020you know i we can look at it but um if i could find a text that was what the one that you first
00:37:15.780asked uh i'm uh not under the law i think there's another text this is we are no longer under it's
00:37:21.320roman 7 i think i believe um but but in that text i i don't think the primary um uh interpretation
00:37:28.880of what the apostle is getting at i'm pretty sure it's paul i i don't think he's actually saying i'm
00:37:33.940we're not under the law, meaning the ceremonial code given to Israel. I think in that one,
00:37:39.580he's actually saying the moral law. But I think in that sense, he's talking about being under the
00:37:44.440law in terms of as judge, that we're no longer under the judgment of the law. So, I think that
00:37:52.080in that instance, he's saying we no longer, because Christ has been judged for us, Christ
00:37:58.560has been judged as a lawbreaker, as our substitute, as the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the
00:38:03.220world. So we're no longer under law, but under grace. So in terms of God's view of us, in terms
00:38:08.420of God's perspective of me, I'm righteous, right? Jesus says, you will not enter the kingdom unless
00:38:13.820your righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees. And any Protestant, truly regenerate Christian,0.53
00:38:19.680if we ask them, they may not know this answer, but this is the correct answer. If we said,
00:38:24.320does your righteousness surpass that of the Pharisees? The correct answer is, yes, sir,0.88
00:38:28.540It does infinitely. So why? Because I've been clothed in the perfect, pure, spotless righteousness
00:38:34.400of Jesus Christ by grace alone through faith. And, and so, you know what I mean? So I think
00:38:38.580Paul saying, I think that's what he's getting at with. We're no longer under the law as our judge,
00:38:43.960but we're under grace. Christ has been judged for us, but I don't think he's saying,
00:38:50.220and therefore the law has no relevance. So here's an interesting thing. Boy,
00:38:56.160I wish I had 10 minutes to form this thought before saying it out loud.
00:39:01.160Okay, so, you know, there's kind of a hermeneutical principle of like, you know, just interpreting scripture, of interpreting a word is that you don't want to add, you want to make sure you keep the meaning of the word, what was intended by the author.
00:39:14.880One way to do that is to, you know, maybe make a mistake on that is to add more specificity than what they meant.
00:39:46.600A dynamite didn't exist just because it sounds like the word dynamite.
00:39:49.920Or even if the word dynamite comes from it hundreds and hundreds of years later, it doesn't, it's not relevant to the first century meaning.
00:40:14.800But with the first Corinthians nine passage, it seems like you take law in the first instance, when he says to the Jews, he became as a Jew, that I might win the Jews to those who were under the law as under the law.0.52
00:40:26.700And in there, you're taking law in that very Jewish sense of you're under the law of Moses in its totality, in its plain sense.
00:40:34.020um and then the next passage to those who are without law as without law not being without
00:40:42.220law toward god and that that one right there the not being without law toward god you're
00:40:48.180interpreting as moral law which is a segment or a part of that old testament law yeah so that's a
00:40:56.040pretty specific interpretation of that phrase law yeah that it is that i'm i'm i'm a little
00:41:01.420suspect so what what what trans that's fine what translation are you using because because the way
00:41:05.720you just read that parenthetical statement in verse 21 is different than than the esv that i
00:41:10.140use sorry that was i was i just i didn't even realize i was on new king james but if if i look
00:41:14.420at the esv he says though not myself um where are we here oh not being outside the law of god
00:41:22.700but under the law of christ now what's interesting is in the in the greek there is just animas
00:41:29.080one word that means like without law i mean like you know to negate and namas which is law right
00:41:35.760so which you know of course i'm saying this for the for the sake of everybody listening
00:41:39.100but it's interesting that in the greek it's that he says to those who were an animas i became as
00:41:46.540animas not being animas they you right not being outside the law of god but under the law of christ
00:41:56.560So the only time it's a different word is when it's under the law of Christ, which is en-namas, means like in the law of Christ.
00:42:07.020And when Paul elsewhere talks about the law of Christ, he seems to be talking, and we don't have time for the whole study,
00:42:11.740but it seems to be talking, to my knowledge, about the law of love one another.
00:42:16.360And you mentioned, this connects to, you were thinking along these lines, I think, in some sense, because you mentioned like the two tablets of the law.
00:46:28.200So it's like the law of God is a shield or a mirror.
00:46:31.540It reveals our need for a savior, a shield.
00:46:33.660It has a common grace function, restraining outward manifestations in society.
00:46:37.700But the third use, David says, it's a lamp unto my feet.
00:46:40.160And so I think that the Ten Commandments is, in some sense, it's shedding light and directing us, showing us the path, a light unto our path, giving us, not narrowing the infinite element of that is God's love,
00:46:59.480but but specifying clarifying and directing i would want to use the word directing us of okay
00:47:05.720i know i need to love god and i know i need to love neighbor um and i've got i've got everybody
00:47:10.780and their mom for the last two years telling me that love your neighbor is is 100 summed up in
00:47:18.540wearing a mask god did you have any verse in the bible that could help me understand you know what
00:47:23.640i mean and that's why i want to go to the 10 commandments and say okay commandment number six
00:47:27.520don't don't harm your neighbor okay so so i don't need to be a fool but also commandment number nine
00:47:32.740don't bear false witness and scare the entire public with a virus that actually isn't nearly
00:47:37.540as dangerous as so we're thinking you know right without trying to weigh in on every all of the
00:47:43.300stuff yeah yeah yeah yeah go ahead um i are you suggesting that i wouldn't have the tools to
00:47:49.300navigate the question of what do you mean by love unless i'm a theonomist i well so again that and
00:47:56.440we got to, we got to get there. I'm sorry, but that gets into, you know, what, okay, what is
00:48:00.320the, just the, the, the staple definition of a theonomist? No, I think that you can define love.
00:48:06.500I think that you can, well, God defines love. And so as a Christian, you can agree with God's
00:48:10.920definition of love without being a theonomist in the way that the phrase, the label has been
00:48:18.460coined in the last few decades by guys like Gary North, guys like Greg Bonson, guys like,
00:48:23.780you know, Rush Dooney, R.J. Rush Dooney. But like I said at the beginning of the episode,
00:48:28.960I do believe that every Christian, if they're genuinely born again and desire to please the0.90
00:48:32.820Lord, if you love me, you obey my commandments, every Christian is a theonomist in the sense that
00:48:38.520it's theos, namos, it's God's law. We recognize that God is holy. He has a law and that we should
00:48:43.820keep it. And generally throughout Christian tradition for 2,000 years, people have held0.91
00:48:49.940to the 10 commandments being applicable in all times and all places for all people. And we had
00:48:54.700them on our courthouses here in America, you know, like that was a pretty, that society even,0.95
00:49:00.060even non-Christians should follow that. And I think, so no, I'm not saying you don't know how0.99
00:49:05.480to love if you're not a theonomist. But I'm saying that as a non-theonomist, if we're defining
00:49:11.880theonomy in the way that Rush Dooney would be a theonomist, but if we're defining theonomy in
00:49:17.380this looser general equity theonomy that I'm more in the tribe of, although I'm kind of in between
00:49:23.380because I like a lot of Rushdoin stuff. But if we're in that sense that every Christian is a
00:49:27.840theonomist because we love God's law, that guy is still going to use, I think, the second table
00:49:32.080of the law, commandments number five through 10, to flesh out what it looks like to love neighbor.
00:49:37.180And I think you do that, I guess, is my argument. I think-
00:49:39.980Well, yeah, I don't see why. Let me just say this is I don't know why this would be a point
00:49:45.360of discussion between a theonomist and a non-theonomist because we both see that there's
00:49:49.640lessons to learn from the law in its various places in the Old Testament, whether it's
00:49:54.640the Ten Commandments or in other, throughout the laws.
01:28:45.280You guys need to judge those within the church.
01:28:47.660And this, it's fuzzy in my head, other than saying there's two spheres.
01:28:56.680Oh, that's the church sphere versus the government sphere.
01:29:00.500But it doesn't seem like the perspective is those outside that the government is dealing with or whatever are part of that kingdom of Christ at all.
01:29:11.580They're just outside and God's judging them.
01:31:15.040But it's also this sense of like, do you not know you're going to be judging angels?
01:31:18.460Why are the pagan courts trumping the ecclesiastical courts?
01:31:22.420If it's a brother, if it's two brothers, you can settle this at home in the church.
01:31:26.440And the church not just making a judgment like discernment, but a judicial ruling for the members of the church.
01:31:32.560But any government, including ecclesiastical government, the church, it has its tools, keys of the kingdom for the church, sword for the state, and it also has its jurisdiction.
01:31:41.120The church can only deal with people that are within the church in that judicial sense.
01:31:46.000And so if we're talking about somebody who's not also a member of the church, they're unregenerate, then no, we can't give this judicial thing.
01:31:51.900And I think that's why Paul's saying, I don't have the authority to do that.
01:31:54.880they don't belong to this church. I'm an apostle of Christ sent to the church. I'm not a civil
01:31:59.140magistrate. It's outside of my jurisdiction. So when he says, is it not those inside the church
01:32:04.020whom you are to judge? In a theonomy perspective, wouldn't a lot of the government leaders and a lot
01:32:12.540of the people enforcing the laws be those inside the church? Absolutely. A lot of them would be
01:32:18.200Christian. Again, not necessarily each and every individual, but yes, many of them would be members
01:32:25.360of Bible preaching local churches, but there still would be a separation. So, they could be judged by
01:32:31.280their church that they belong to for certain matters under that ecclesiastical court. But
01:32:36.820again, it'd just be the separation, a distinction of those two sovereign spheres of the church and
01:32:40.220the state. But not told what laws they have to pass or something like that?
01:32:45.620Well, they would be told that, but not with governmental binding.
01:38:32.440this is what I asked some of my friends is,
01:38:34.300do we believe that a Christian can, can serve in a position of government? Can a Christian be in
01:38:40.940the military? Can a Christian be a police officer? Could they run for city council? Could they be a1.00
01:38:44.600governor? And I believe that Christians can and should. Not that every Christian, people have
01:38:49.620individual calls on their life, but this is not only permissible, but it is commendable.
01:38:54.960And so, in those cases where you have a Christian serving in government, you have a dual office.
01:38:59.520you know just like i you know i i don't i have certain authority as a pastor in the realm of the
01:39:04.700church that i don't have with my wife and children as as husband dad um in the home and then i have
01:39:10.900certain authority with my wife and children like for instance with spanking which i know is
01:39:14.500controversial but i i believe in spanking so i i can't spank members in my church but i can with
01:39:21.000my kids and so i'm holding you know what i mean like the weirdest yeah yeah okay don't don't try
01:39:25.560to picture it yeah don't try to picture it but you know but i can't that would be in highly
01:39:29.460inappropriate and weird you know and make people cry and laugh and it'd just be bad so so anyways
01:39:34.900the point is um but but i'm hoping it's the same it's one person joel who is dad over here and and
01:39:41.520pastor over here and has one tool keys of the kingdom over here a rod over here this responsibility
01:39:47.560and that responsibility and jurisdiction in between right so i i would actually agree with
01:39:52.780all of that everything you just said there i think i think i'd agree with all of it my
01:39:56.460my pushback in matthew 28 and this will be the last pushback i'll give you but it's good
01:40:01.020would be um that um if we do okay i i'm sensing what i think is an inconsistency right i would
01:40:09.140take this to be back go into all the nations make disciples of all nations um baptize them
01:40:16.700right teach them this is all the same category of people they're it's christians discipling and
01:40:22.660teaching and baptizing other christians and it's not teaching them to make government laws that
01:40:27.940enforce the commands of christ um but if you do view it as making government laws then it all
01:40:33.620funnels back to the church as the one that is over the government not as separate spheres so i'm just
01:40:40.140i'm just saying this seems like an internal inconsistency in that view the separation of
01:40:45.180church and state thing i'm saying i think theonomy okay i don't i don't currently think that that's
01:40:48.980That's the biblical view. And I haven't heard all the reasons for it either. So I'm not saying, you know, more than that. But I think that this separation of church and state idea doesn't fit if you were to hold the theonomy position. You would have to say the church is over the state for the reason, and it would conflict with other scriptures, I admit that, but for the reason that the proof text would put it that way, right?
01:41:12.060all authority has been given to me right go therefore make disciples of all the nations
01:41:15.340that's the that's that's the disciples and then as it filters down to all those who become
01:41:20.540disciples go and disciple all nations baptize them in the name of the father and the son and
01:41:24.300the holy spirit teach them to observe all that i've commanded you if i interpret that as make
01:41:29.100laws governmental laws that enforce the commands of jesus which i interpret secondarily as being
01:41:36.940under the law of not under the law of moses but but being under the theonomic understanding of
01:41:42.920the law of moses um then the church is the one who's in charge of that if that's my proof text
01:41:50.320then the church is in charge that's my point with matthew 28 what do you think of that phrase if
01:41:54.400that's your proof text then the church is in charge of the state i completely understand what
01:42:00.260you're saying. So my response would be, I'm not saying, so go, therefore make disciples of all
01:42:07.520nations, baptize. So I look at it as really, it's one commandment. I think it's disciple.
01:42:12.600And I think we have sub commandments that serve that. So it's disciple, make disciples. And to
01:42:20.100make disciples, it's going to involve going, baptizing, and teaching. And so with that,
01:43:36.980Because my thing is, I think theonomy is inescapable unless you're a pessimist.
01:43:44.600And, you know, like, like, unless, and I don't mean that as a slam, but I mean it in just in terms of, like, for me, my post-millennialism says that the Great Commission, when I look at the Great Commission within my post-millennial framework, I think it's actually going to work.
01:44:27.180And it wasn't so much, so it's disciples teaching disciples to obey the law of God.
01:44:31.640It's not like they're going so much, although I think there is this function, but it's not so much like I'm going and I'm telling, you know, the civil magistrate what to legislate.
01:44:41.860It's, no, I'm making disciples, but to me, here's the inescapable reality.
01:44:45.840What if the Great Commission actually works?
01:44:47.460What if Christ actually does build his church numerically to the point where you have centurions,
01:44:53.040you have members of the civil magistrate who are also now members of Christ's church,
01:44:56.560and they're asking the question, which we do see in the New Testament, questions like
01:49:16.240So theonomy, it seems to me, is different than what I was expecting from the little whispers I've heard about it.
01:49:22.800Because I've heard very little about it, to be honest.
01:49:24.300I've only heard little bits here and there.
01:49:27.200And you've helped me understand it a lot better.
01:49:29.340And I also know that me and you as brothers in Christ, we agree on so much stuff that, like, we could hold hands together, at least metaphorically.
01:49:38.200I'm not really comfortable just holding hands with the guys.
01:49:41.020It wouldn't be quite as weird as the spanking analogy.
01:49:46.740But we could we could hold hands together and stand shoulder to shoulder, you know, with so many important and essential doctrines in Christ, even against the sway of where a lot of people are going in very westernized countries that are more too modern for their own brains.
01:50:08.280so so that's that's true um and and but i i think that my own perspective on theonomy is i'm not
01:50:15.280really closer to it here i'm i'm going okay yeah it doesn't seem to me that i've currently
01:50:20.600understood that there's these clear texts that really strongly establish at least for my
01:50:25.260understanding yeah um yeah anyway what do you think no that's that's totally fine and i i think
01:50:31.620you know if you do explore more and i know that one thing that's difficult is you know
01:50:36.600when you're a pastor or, or even just, you know, in a position of teaching Christians theology,
01:50:43.520everyone wants to dictate your study schedule. Have you noticed that? You should read this book.
01:50:48.900You should read this book. You should read this book. And so you're doing, you've got something
01:50:52.600lined up. So you do you and, and do that and do it to the glory of God and do it thoroughly and,
01:50:57.840and come back up for air, you know, five years from now or whatever it takes.
01:51:01.300but if you ever do get to it and i'm not saying you have to um if you ever do get to it you'll
01:51:07.920you'll probably will come back and say i don't feel like joel was being honest with me about
01:51:11.960this theonomy thing because there is such a wide spectrum some people the simple definition of
01:51:16.680theonomy is the civil codes not just the ten commands but the civil codes given to israel
01:51:21.680should they they are uh we are nations today are obligated so that's what i think i've run into
01:51:28.860with my whispers that i've heard because it felt very much this was years ago and i was like i'm
01:51:33.620pretty sure these guys want to enforce the totality of the civil law towards israel or basically
01:51:38.960the laws towards israel except for what we would consider purity um right yeah and and not the
01:51:44.920civil coats i'd have a hundred more pushbacks against that that i didn't didn't even bring up
01:51:51.260because that's not your view right so i would be of of like jeff durbin james white doug wilson
01:51:57.340these are some of the guys that i would align with and and they kind of coin use the phrase
01:52:02.460general equity theonomist which really does seem to be the the the confessional reform position
01:52:08.460if you're westminster or 16 it seems like it is now the confession is not the inherent word of
01:52:13.400god confessions can air but i'm just saying if you're going to say right i'm i'm a confessional
01:52:17.240presbyterian confessional reform baptist then the general equity theonomist seems to be the right
01:52:22.100thing and the reason why we want to is like why not just call it something else why do you have
01:52:26.320to use the word theonomy because theonomy is a good word. It's God's law. I don't think Christians
01:52:30.020should be having aversion. We want to take that word, stand on that word. And guys who are maybe
01:52:35.040further, a lot of what they said is fantastic. Greg Bonson, I would agree with 99% of everything
01:52:41.300that he said. Rush Dooney, I would agree with probably 85 to 90%, so less. Gary North, I haven't
01:52:48.620gotten into a whole lot, but I've heard great things and especially his application of the
01:52:53.020christian worldview not just to to the civil realm but to economics i heard that gary north
01:52:57.380has done some phenomenal but the big idea is all of christ for all of life all of christ for all
01:53:02.280of life like god has written us a book and and there's there's a lot of things that can be known
01:53:07.540about god not everything but but it's not a 30 page pamphlet it's 66 books there's a lot of
01:53:12.220information divine revelation so that the man of god might be equipped for every good work not just
01:53:17.640his pietistic, privatized, quiet time in his backyard as his kids get shipped off to the0.54
01:53:23.380gulag and he allows for a total Marxist takeover. I think the reason why post-millennialism and
01:53:28.880theonomy are on the uprise right now is because of providence. It is circumstantial. And that
01:53:35.020doesn't mean they're wrong. And it also doesn't make it right. That's not an argument that proves
01:53:38.220something either way. But I will admit there is something significant to what's been going on in
01:53:43.120the world over the last two years and in our nation in civil tyranny and medical tyranny and
01:53:48.060being told you have to get something in your body or you have to all the, and then all of a sudden
01:53:52.320it's like, yeah, man, like, does God have something to say about this? And does the Bible, does it
01:53:56.880just apply to the home in the church, the home of the, another conference on parenting, another
01:54:00.480conference on parenting, or does the Bible say something about the political realm and the
01:54:05.400economic realm? And I think the general equity theonomists are saying, yes, it does. And the
01:54:11.340old school theonomists that get the bad rap, I think they're number one, way better than people
01:54:16.600are willing to admit. But number two, I think, yeah, maybe there are some areas where they go
01:54:20.800too far. So that would be my sign-off thought. There's a world in theonomy. Well, thanks for
01:54:28.600getting me exposed somewhat to it. I appreciate the talk, the brotherly chat, and thanks for
01:54:33.100letting me push back somewhat. And yeah, good stuff. Yeah. Thanks so much for coming on the
01:54:38.180show really really appreciate god bless you thanks man wait wait wait real quick before you go do me
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