The NXR Podcast - THEOLOGY APPLIED - Who Are The Nephilim？

00:00:00.000 Hi, I'm Pastor Joel with Right Response Ministries, and you're listening to Theology Applied.

00:00:05.240 In this episode, I was privileged to have two special guests, Joshua Lewis and Michael

00:00:10.680 Roundtree, the co-host of Remnant Radio.

00:00:13.740 Now, this was a two-part conversation between the co-host of Remnant Radio on the Nephilim,

00:00:19.480 the Sons of God, and the application for Christians today.

00:00:23.940 In part one, which is what you're listening to now, we deal with who are the Nephilim and who are the sons of God.

00:00:33.140 In part two, we deal with the relevancy of the Nephilim and the sons of God for Christians today.

00:00:40.360 Applying God's word to every aspect of life.

00:00:43.880 This is Theology Applied.

00:00:45.800 All right. So today's episode, I am privileged to have as a special guest, two individuals,

00:00:58.240 Michael Roundtree and Joshua Lewis. They are co-hosts of a show called Remnant Radio. And

00:01:04.140 Remnant Radio is a really great show where they talk about all sorts of theological topics and

00:01:09.220 they have people from all over the map. So there's guys that we would disagree with and there's guys

00:01:13.200 that we would agree with, and they have, of course, their own theological system, their

00:01:17.260 own theological convictions, and they intentionally do that because one of their concerns is that

00:01:22.020 there are sometimes echo chambers in the body of Christ, theologically, where we just hear

00:01:26.780 from the same people again and again who already believe all the things that we believe, and

00:01:30.540 so they want to disrupt echo chambers, and so I appreciate their ministry.

00:01:35.740 I've learned a lot from watching their show, and so I'm pleased to have them as guests.

00:01:40.660 Josh and Michael, do you want to take a moment and introduce yourselves?

00:01:44.560 You want to go first? I'll let you go.

00:01:46.880 Okay. Thank you for letting me. I appreciate that.

00:01:49.440 So my name is Michael Roundtree, and I'm a lead pastor at a church called Wellspring Church.

00:01:54.520 And it's in North Fort Worth, one of the suburbs of Fort Worth.

00:01:58.540 And I've been the pastor there since 2012.

00:02:01.500 And I'm also a co-host on Remnant Radio, theology podcast that Joel just talked about.

00:02:07.000 uh josh started the podcast about four years ago and then i hopped on a year and a half

00:02:11.700 uh or so ago and uh yeah i have a wife of 17 years and four kids anna hudson will and molly

00:02:20.880 yeah uh today was first day of school for my kids so uh seven five and four um um josie is my wife

00:02:30.440 we've been married for eight nine years now nine years now i'm in trouble come on and uh yeah uh

00:02:36.420 started remnant radio back in july of 20 was it 27 not 2017 it's too late 2019 it's worth no

00:02:44.380 2021 minus four 2017 it was 2017 okay so uh 2017 uh yeah and then uh we're we're to joel's point

00:02:52.580 we are charismatic but we interview people all over the term continuationist we're continuationist

00:02:58.380 because yeah the word charismatic you think of benny hen slapping people with coats and then

00:03:01.640 you say pentecostal and you think second blessing in tongues so we just say hey we believe in the

00:03:05.340 gifts. So we're trying to get into a space where like, hey, let's help charismatics think critically

00:03:11.100 and think well about a robust Christian faith. So we interview pastors and teachers from all over

00:03:16.440 the place, from different churches and denominations. We prefer if they have a PhD in front

00:03:21.820 of their name. We like to have like those kinds of heady conversations from a kind of a charismatic

00:03:26.760 slant, I would say. Today we're talking about Nephilim, and I suppose because we're charismatic,

00:03:33.100 we talk about angels, but this isn't like our bread and butter. But we know some guys. We've

00:03:38.280 done a couple of shows on Nephilim and Elohim and those kinds of things. So I'm excited about

00:03:43.080 today's conversation. Thanks, guys. Thanks for coming on. To be fair, I was going to say I'm

00:03:46.980 the guy who picked the topic. So I picked the fallen angels and the Nephilim and the relevancy

00:03:51.900 for Christians today. And it is worth saying that Michael and I actually have been friends for, 0.94

00:03:57.880 I guess, uh, I, I think like 12, 13 years now. Um, I, I think I met you, Michael. So probably

00:04:03.680 12 years. I think it was like one year after, uh, you got married. And so, or maybe two years

00:04:08.840 after you got married, but it was back in 2007. So you're the math guy. Can you do that real quick?

00:04:13.880 I turned you into a Calvinist, man. Yep. Michael turned me into a Calvinist and then he abandoned,

00:04:18.180 you know, it's kind of, and then he has returned. Yeah. I never, I would never say I abandoned. I

00:04:25.880 would say i spent a year calling myself soteriologically homeless so maybe you call that

00:04:31.100 abandonment he pitched his tent just south of sodom he was just south of it oh no you know

00:04:38.660 my mentor jack deer one of the things that he taught me was uh never allow your system to

00:04:44.580 force you into an uh an interpretation that seems to violate uh just the the flow of the

00:04:52.080 specific text and so right you know and honestly go ahead sorry yeah so to be frank there are some

00:05:00.820 texts that sound non-calvinist and even uh would as though they would go against calvinism but

00:05:06.340 uh you know i spent that year really searching and just uh at at the end of it i i came back

00:05:12.600 to this place of like you know there are some texts that seem to go both ways but i'm just kind

00:05:16.940 of going with like the broader picture and scope of scripture.

00:05:21.460 So that's what I want.

00:05:22.280 That's not what we're talking about.

00:05:23.600 No, no, that's good.

00:05:24.420 And I remember you said that one of the points that was just kind of irrefutable was election.

00:05:29.040 It's hard to get away from election.

00:05:31.080 Yes, it is.

00:05:32.460 That's a big one.

00:05:34.160 So anyways, for those who don't know, me and Michael, we go way back and I was actually

00:05:38.320 a part of Wellspring.

00:05:39.720 So his church, he was the youth pastor at the time.

00:05:41.700 I was a part of the church.

00:05:42.520 And then I left when I finished my undergrad at Dallas Baptist University.

00:05:46.940 would be the right word. I abandoned Michael. I held on to Calvinism. I held on to John Calvin

00:05:52.280 and I let go of Michael Roundtree and I moved to California, planted a church there, was there for

00:05:57.960 11 years and then came back. And in regards to the continuationist thing, so Jack Deere,

00:06:03.620 he already mentioned he was the pastor of the church when I was there. Michael was his youth

00:06:07.480 pastor. And so just for those of you who are maybe not super familiar with the continuation,

00:06:13.100 there's just a wide spectrum you know you've got false teachers um that are crazy charismatics with

00:06:19.380 the 70 million dollar jet planes and all that but then you also have um the reasonable continuation

00:06:24.720 is that would be guys like john piper wayne grudem sam storms and you guys correct me if i'm wrong

00:06:29.760 but is it fair to put you in kind of a sam storms continuationist camp yeah that would be fair yeah

00:06:35.840 no we'll call it careful continuationist guys like keener grudem storms jack deer yeah they've

00:06:42.220 all been on the show a lot. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, so Michael, Michael made me a Calvinist. Michael

00:06:47.580 also gave me training in, uh, prophecy and, uh, Michael abandoned Calvinism and I abandoned

00:06:54.240 prophecy. So I ended up becoming a cessationist and still am a proud cessationist and Michael

00:07:02.120 left Calvinism, but he came back and I have not yet come back. And I'm sure that you're praying

00:07:06.440 for me to follow the pattern. So anyway, so my, no, I need, I need scripture and I know you guys

00:07:16.360 have plenty of it. So anyways, all that being said, I say that to be fair because both Josh

00:07:21.980 and Michael love the scripture. And honestly, the last thing I'll say before we hop into our topic

00:07:25.960 is I, Michael was one of the first people I met who, um, who strived more than anyone I knew at

00:07:31.120 the time to memorize the Bible. And so for every, every ounce of effort that he put towards, you

00:07:38.220 know, getting prophetic words, I saw him put 10 times as much energy in memorizing the scripture,

00:07:45.500 applying the scripture, preaching the scripture, expositional preaching. And he's did that when I

00:07:50.900 knew him and was mentored by him and has done that for the last 13 years and still does that

00:07:55.680 faithfully. So all that being said, I'm really grateful for both of you guys, and especially

00:07:59.820 you, Michael, just because of our prior relationship and you've meant a lot to me. So thank

00:08:03.800 you for that. All right. So let's go ahead and yeah, you're welcome. So let's go ahead

00:08:07.800 and hop in. So this is the text that I want us to work for from. I know that there are

00:08:11.180 a few that deal with fallen angels, uh, the sons of God, the Nephilim. And what we're

00:08:16.100 going to try to do towards the end of this episode is make it relevant, right? So that

00:08:20.000 we don't just have, you know, uh, bringing all the wacko boys to the yard with, uh, Nephilim 0.66

00:08:24.620 talks on YouTube. Uh, but the, you know, but that it actually is applicable and relevant.

00:08:29.280 You know, what does this idea of the Nephilim have to do with Christians today?

00:08:33.240 What can we learn from this?

00:08:34.520 How can we apply this in our daily lives?

00:08:36.900 So we're going to do that towards the end of the episode.

00:08:38.960 But let's start by just getting a framework.

00:08:41.740 And so there's a lot of text, but the text I want to work from is this, Genesis chapter 6, verses 1 through 8.

00:08:46.700 So this is kind of our foundational text.

00:08:49.500 It says this,

00:08:49.960 When men began to multiply on the face of the land, and daughters were born to them,

00:08:54.120 the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive,

00:08:57.580 and they took as their wives any they chose the lord said my spirit shall not abide in man forever

00:09:03.080 for he is flesh his days shall be 120 years the nephilim were on the earth in those days and also

00:09:09.940 afterward when the sons of god came into the daughters of men and they bore children to them

00:09:15.240 these were the mighty men who were of old or renowned some translations say the men of renown

00:09:21.180 the lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth and that every intention of

00:09:27.500 the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

00:09:30.980 And the Lord regretted that he had made man on the earth

00:09:34.260 and it grieved him to his heart.

00:09:36.040 The Lord said, I will blot out man whom I have created

00:09:39.460 from the face of the land, man and animals

00:09:42.100 and creeping things and birds of the heavens,

00:09:44.600 for I am sorry that I have made them.

00:09:46.940 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.

00:09:50.240 So I've written a few notes here.

00:09:52.180 In Matthew chapter 24, verses 37 through 39,

00:09:55.060 Jesus says for the coming of the son of man that speaking of himself will be just like the days of

00:10:01.360 Noah for as in those days which were before the flood they were eating and drinking they were 0.56

00:10:06.080 marrying and giving in marriage until the day that Noah entered the ark and they did not understand 0.62

00:10:11.440 until the flood came and took them all away so shall the coming of the son of man be also first

00:10:17.100 Peter chapter 3 verse 20 says because they formerly did not obey when God's patience waited

00:10:23.240 in the days of Noah while the ark was being prepared in which a few that is eight persons

00:10:28.180 were brought safely through water so according to both Jesus and Peter the people of Noah's day

00:10:33.940 chose to ignore God's warnings of judgment until eventually it was too late in today's text we see

00:10:39.880 the progression in this text Genesis chapter 6 the progression of sin as it relates not just to

00:10:45.660 individuals one of the things I find helpful about the Genesis 6 passage is it shows a progression

00:10:50.720 of sin as it relates to societies and cultures and even nations. Sin begins with compromise.

00:10:57.300 It moves to corruption and ultimately it ends in God's just judgment. So in verses one and two

00:11:03.600 of Genesis chapter six, it says, when man began to multiply in the face of the earth,

00:11:08.260 the face of the land, the daughters were born to them. The sons of God saw that the daughters of

00:11:12.540 men were attractive. They took his wives, any that they chose. Now the debate over this text, 0.70

00:11:17.720 Who are the sons of God? That's the first question we got to get to. This is a century, centuries and centuries old debate. There are three main views that I'm familiar with. The first is that the sons of God were powerful rulers, princes, likely possessed by demons, demon possessed, who were striving for fame and glory through the means of mass fertility.

00:11:38.820 that they had many wives and they were trying to have many, many, many, many sons, many offsprings

00:11:44.900 to basically cause their name to be essentially immortal. Occasionally in the Bible, the Hebrew

00:11:52.120 word Elohim or Josh, before we got started, he insisted that we say Elohim to be accurate,

00:11:59.040 but it's a name for God. And so in the Hebrew Bible, the word, the Hebrew word Elohim is used

00:12:07.820 for men in positions of authority. That would be like Exodus chapter 21 verse 6 or Psalm chapter

00:12:12.620 82 verse 1 and verse 6. In this view, the daughters of men would refer to all daughters. So all the

00:12:19.340 women who were on the earth at this time, they were being taken as wives by these powerful rulers

00:12:25.900 or princes, sons of rulers, possessed by demons, trying to have many offspring to further their

00:12:30.840 line and make themselves immortal. That's the first view of the sons of God. The second view

00:12:35.460 is that the sons of God refer to the godly descendants of Seth

00:12:38.900 who called upon the name of the Lord,

00:12:41.460 which we see in Genesis chapter 4, verse 26,

00:12:43.700 and chapter 5, we see the genealogy,

00:12:46.560 Genesis chapter 5, the genealogy of Seth.

00:12:49.560 In this view, the daughters of men would refer to the ungodly women,

00:12:53.820 most likely from the line of Cain,

00:12:56.200 who went out from the presence of the Lord.

00:12:58.620 That's what the Bible says about Cain and his offspring

00:13:00.960 in Genesis chapter 4, verse 16 through 24.

00:13:03.760 Now, Luke, in the New Testament, he traces the line of Christ back through Seth all the way to Adam, and he calls Adam the son of God. That's Luke 3, verse 38.

00:13:14.860 Thus, Adam's descendants through Seth are the sons of God, according to this view, who became corrupt through sinful compromise in marriage.

00:13:23.220 They chose to marry on the basis of sexual attraction rather than on the basis of godly character and a godly lineage.

00:13:30.820 The result was the compromise of godly standards, which led to the corruption and ultimately condemnation of the entire human race. 0.56

00:13:39.320 The third view of the sons of God is that the sons of God refer to fallen angels or demons who came to earth in human form and cohabitated with women, human women, resulting in a superhuman race called the Nephilim.

00:13:56.100 Genesis chapter 6, verse 4. Proponents of this view argue that Satan was attempting, and I like this, he was attempting to use these fallen angels to thwart God's promise to bring a deliverer through the seed of the woman by corrupting the line of Adam.

00:14:13.120 So that's the first kind of expression of the gospel that we see in Genesis chapter 3 when God's dealing out the curses to Adam and to the woman, Eve, and to the serpent.

00:14:23.260 We see that even in God's judgment, there's this, I like to call it an Easter egg and a Reformed Baptist covenantal theology of the gospel, the Proto-Evangelium.

00:14:33.320 How do you say that, guys?

00:14:34.400 Can you help me with that?

00:14:35.440 That's right.

00:14:35.840 Proto?

00:14:36.440 I always called it the Proto-Evangelium, but Evangelium probably.

00:14:40.980 Yeah.

00:14:42.180 It's one of those.

00:14:43.120 Proto means before, Evangelion, the message, the gospel, the good news, right?

00:14:47.880 Yeah.

00:14:48.380 Right.

00:14:49.100 And so in that, what we see is God says, he promises the woman that there's going to be,

00:14:54.100 well, at first it doesn't really sound like a blessing or a promise. 0.77

00:14:56.420 It sounds like part of the curse.

00:14:57.560 And it is.

00:14:58.280 He says there's going to be this seemingly unending enmity between your offspring and

00:15:04.420 the offspring of the serpent.

00:15:05.460 So he basically, the first promise that God gives is there's going to be a endless war,

00:15:11.240 right?

00:15:11.600 There's just going to be this endless war.

00:15:13.120 But what he ultimately promises is that the serpent is going to strike the heel of one of the woman's offspring, the seed of the woman, but that he will have the final victory blow in crushing the serpent's head. 0.83

00:15:26.520 And so Adam and Eve were saved as all Christians are saved before or after the cross, which is by grace alone, through faith alone in Christ alone. 0.52

00:15:34.000 They knew Christ as the serpent crusher and they put faith in Jesus and they were saved by grace through faith in Christ work, which would come later. 0.55

00:15:43.780 They looked forward to the Messiah and knew him as the serpent crusher.

00:15:47.640 And so in all of that, the point is that multiple times throughout the Old Testament,

00:15:52.840 one of the things that we see is we see the line, this lineage of the woman that's eventually going to bring the serpent crusher,

00:15:59.720 the promised seed the promised offspring that's going to crush the head of the serpent we see

00:16:05.020 multiple attempts of satan influencing or downright possessing wicked men on earth in order to try to

00:16:12.800 end the line and so for instance uh herod trying to wipe out um all the children in bethlehem or

00:16:20.880 pharaoh uh same kind of thing with the uh the hebrew boys um or or according to this view the

00:16:28.120 sons of God, fallen angels trying to dilute and pervert the biological line of human women 0.63

00:16:37.320 so that there would not be a pure seed of the serpent crusher, the promised seed, the 0.93

00:16:44.680 offspring that fallen angels stepping out of heaven, taking on human form, marrying human

00:16:50.740 women and trying to pervert that messianic line.

00:16:54.500 So the strongest argument for this view is that every other time the term son of God or sons of God is used in the Bible, it always refers to angels, which is pretty compelling. Job chapter one, Job chapter two, Job chapter 38, Daniel chapter three, Psalm chapter 29 and Psalm chapter 89.

00:17:13.940 So in this view, the daughters of men would not just refer to the daughters of Cain, but the daughters of both Cain and Seth, all human women and the sons of God refer to not human men, but rather fallen angels.

00:17:27.980 And so last thing I want to say, just setting the stage, verse four of our text, it mentions the Nephilim, those who hold to the view that the sons of God referred to fallen angels, say that the Nephilim were an ancient race of giants originated from the union of fallen angels and the daughters of men.

00:17:43.940 the word Nephilim only appears one other time in scripture. That's numbers 13 verse 33. There,

00:17:50.440 the Israelite spies reported that they had seen the Nephilim and that they felt small in comparison

00:17:55.760 to them like grasshoppers. The word comes from a root word meaning to fall upon. It points to men

00:18:02.960 of great violence, physical violence, who had a reputation of falling upon their enemies without

00:18:08.640 mercy. These men may or may not have been physical giants who descended from fallen angels. The

00:18:13.860 point is that they were vicious men with an insatiable bloodlust who would slaughter others

00:18:19.920 just for sport. Therefore, we are meant to assume that the generation at the time of the flood was

00:18:25.280 notorious for a host of sins, but especially the sin of violence. Genesis chapter six, verse 13.

00:18:32.520 This explanation of the Nephilim is further confirmed by God's evaluation of that generation 0.87

00:18:37.520 found in verse five of Genesis six that says, then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great 0.95

00:18:43.840 on the earth and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually verse 5

00:18:49.420 is God's description of the extreme corruption of that generation due to God's common grace

00:18:55.540 sin does not always reach the outward manifestations that it did in the days of Noah

00:19:01.880 however I've got to say this as somebody who believes in total depravity however at the level 0.98

00:19:07.300 of the heart the unbeliever in our day is no less wicked than the unbelievers at the time of the 0.99

00:19:13.260 flood. So I believe that Genesis chapter six, verse five is an accurate description of, of the 1.00

00:19:18.720 unbeliever in the heart, the sinfulness of their heart, even today. However, the differences in

00:19:24.980 Noah's day, uh, that, that it wasn't just, um, every thought and every intention of their heart,

00:19:30.780 only evil continually. Um, but, but for me, I take that to mean that, that in the days of Noah,

00:19:36.560 um, that it wasn't just, this is, is the level of depravity inwardly in the heart, but, but that

00:19:42.580 God's common grace had lifted in such a way that, that, that the intentions of the heart were being

00:19:49.120 outwardly manifest, especially in sinful acts of violence and murder. And so God, um, he, he

00:19:57.560 wiped everyone out except for Noah and his wife, sons and their wives. So that's, that's my

00:20:02.220 foundation, Josh. Uh, you obviously, so go for it. No, I just want to clarify in question when

00:20:08.500 You said that they're just as depraved as we are today in a Calvinist perspective of total depravity, which I would actually affirm that the total depravity means that we, that our entire being is as corrupted as it, as it, like every being, every part of our being has been affected by sin.

00:20:25.680 We're total, the totality of us has been affected.

00:20:28.400 Not that we are as sinful as we'll ever be, utter, utter depravity.

00:20:32.480 So you're making that distinction.

00:20:33.980 So they, would you say that they were utterly depraved?

00:20:36.780 in a way that maybe we're not?

00:20:39.020 I just want to, just clarifying.

00:20:40.860 Yeah, no, that's a great question.

00:20:42.320 So total depravity, exactly what you said.

00:20:44.040 It means that every part of humanity is marred by sin.

00:20:49.440 And just for the record, in the Calvinistic perspective,

00:20:52.000 we do not believe that Christians are totally depraved.

00:20:55.160 And that's a mistake that I made in my early Calvinist days.

00:20:58.020 And I still hear people in the Reformed camp that, you know,

00:21:00.900 they're new and they're super excited about the tulip.

00:21:02.960 They're leaving tulips at John Wesley's, you know, gravesite, you know,

00:21:06.140 and say, you know, that the cage Calvinist, and they talk, we're totally depraved. But then they

00:21:10.140 talk about themselves in that light. And it's like, no, if you're born again, you're not totally

00:21:14.600 depraved. You're not. You are a new creation. In your inner being, you delight in the law of God.

00:21:20.540 Something has actually changed. So I don't believe the Christian is even totally depraved. 0.73

00:21:24.320 And the unbeliever, I don't believe, is utterly depraved. And I personally don't believe that

00:21:29.000 there's ever been a man on earth that has been utterly depraved in the fullest extent. But I do

00:21:36.120 Two, to answer your question, Josh, I do think that that generation in the days of Noah, that the unbeliever, which would have been all of them except for Noah and his family, that the unbeliever in those days was further down the path of utter depravity than generations today. 0.68

00:21:52.220 However, I don't think that it's unique to Noah in the sense, his day, in the sense that that could never happen again or that that hasn't happened, at least in part. 0.60

00:22:02.220 So I would look at the Third Reich and I would look at Adolf Hitler and Mussolini and Joseph Stalin. 0.52

00:22:07.020 And I would say this is what happens in societies when God's law is ultimately abandoned in the three uses of God's law. 0.80

00:22:17.300 The second use is that the law of God has a common grace function that works even for the unbeliever as a shield that holds outward expressions, outward manifestations of that inward total depravity at bay. 0.93

00:22:29.800 Right. That there are people who who are unbelievers. They're totally depraved in their heart. So every intention of their heart is only evil continually. And yet, because of the law of God adopted and executed through societies and legislation and governing civil authorities, there are people who would want to murder, but but are restrained and actually carrying that act out due to fear and not love of God. 1.00

00:22:58.100 but, but fear of the civil magistrate. And so I do think that there have been societies since

00:23:02.780 the days of Noah and that we can track through human history where I would say, yeah, they looked

00:23:07.460 a lot like, no, they were savage. They were barbaric. Um, they, they were violent. They

00:23:13.300 were physically, but I would say Nineveh. So Nineveh, you know, they used to fillet their 1.00

00:23:17.580 victims alive is, is, is what most historians say. And they would hang the skins of the people that 0.71

00:23:23.400 they've laid on the walls of Nineveh. And when the king of Nineveh repents and calls the whole 0.92

00:23:29.940 kingdom, the whole nation to repentance at the preaching of Jonah, that's specifically what's

00:23:34.540 mentioned in the book of Jonah is that he says, we must repent of our violence. And so violence,

00:23:41.000 physical violence is always seems to be emphasized as a further progression towards that utter

00:23:48.620 depravity. It seems to be the case in the days of Noah, and it seems to be the case in the days of

00:23:53.740 Nineveh, when Jonah went and preached repentance to them. It seems to be the case in the days of

00:24:00.300 World War I and II and certain nations. And so I do think that totally depraved,

00:24:09.360 unbelievers are totally depraved. That means inwardly, all they want to do is rebel against 1.00

00:24:13.120 God. But that's different than utter depravity, because somebody can rebel against God by being

00:24:17.340 nice but it's still but they're still ultimately rebelling against god it's that classic augustinian

00:24:22.960 position of a a a sinner cannot do good a saint can choose not to do bad and can choose to do good

00:24:32.360 and a glorified believer cannot do bad right like when we get to do so it's it's a it's a classic

00:24:37.620 augustinian historic protestant faith yep so that i just wanted to make that clear like that that

00:24:44.560 Genesis 6-5, I think, is an accurate description of the human heart, not merely in the days of Noah, but in all ages.

00:24:54.460 But it's an accurate description of the human heart for the unredeemed, for the unbeliever.

00:24:59.560 I do not believe that Christians are totally depraved. 0.97

00:25:01.640 And what's unique about the days of Noah, although I do think there have been other time periods and other cultures that have been similar to those people in the days of Noah,

00:25:10.520 is that it's not just total depravity intentions and thoughts of the heart but because that second

00:25:16.960 use of God's law has been lifted his common grace has been lifted God handing people over Romans 1

00:25:22.580 handing them over to their evil the the total depravity intentions in the heart begin to

00:25:28.180 manifest in actions outwardly and I cheat I think the chief action being violence and and so I think

00:25:34.620 that the people in the days of Noah were uniquely violent however I do think there have been

00:25:40.000 cultures and nations and time periods where we're at least close to that level of violence has also

00:25:46.460 been achieved. And God, maybe not through a worldwide flood, well, definitely not through

00:25:51.120 a worldwide flood, but through other means, God has wiped people out. He has corrected that in

00:25:56.020 his mercy. So anyway, so that's it. So what do you guys think? Who are the sons of God? Which

00:26:01.720 view would you guys take? Who are the Nephilim? Go ahead and take it. Okay. So you put out there 0.61

00:26:07.380 are three options for who uh the nephilim is and i would say uh they are ruling okay actually to

00:26:14.240 back up you you gave three options for who the sons of god are to answer who the nephilim are

00:26:18.740 we have to talk about who the sons of god are because the two are related and you gave three

00:26:23.440 potential options for who the sons of god in genesis chapter 6 might be uh the sons of princes

00:26:30.060 or the sons of seth and ruling angels and of these three yes those are the three that have

00:26:36.380 historically been put out there but the first one no modern commentary i i haven't read any

00:26:42.360 modern commentaries that believe that they they all seem to think that it is a dying position

00:26:46.180 it's a it's a dying position um sons of seth and ruling angels and even before i say what i'm about

00:26:52.360 to say i think i would say this in my opinion the only reason to reject that the sons of god are

00:27:00.240 ruling angels part of this divine counsel of god is not for exegetical reasons but because it's

00:27:08.160 really weird that angels would have sex with human women like that's just weird and uh but the reality 0.91

00:27:16.160 is nephilim are weird right that which is the product of that like that's already weird and

00:27:22.200 there's just some weird stuff in the bible uh but i don't think we can outright reject something

00:27:27.520 just because it's weird, especially when there's really strong exegetical evidence the other way.

00:27:33.760 So I think that what really nails it for this is something you said, Joel, that every other

00:27:41.460 instance in the Bible where sons of God is used, it's speaking of these angelic beings.

00:27:47.320 It's not talking about sons of Seth. It's talking about these angelic beings. So we need to have

00:27:53.420 overwhelming evidence to overturn the way sons of god is used every other single time in the bible

00:28:00.620 and we don't have that overwhelming evidence in fact we seem to have evidence going in the

00:28:05.980 opposite direction uh take for instance uh the let me just reread verses one and two you guys

00:28:12.300 just pay attention to the usage of the phrase daughter uh daughters or word daughters okay

00:28:17.400 so it's going to appear in verses one and in two and if you believe in the sons of seth theory this

00:28:23.800 idea that like well you have the two lines you have the unbelieving wicked line of cain and the

00:28:28.920 believing blessed line of seth and the and the position states that the sons of seth uh they

00:28:37.020 mixed the line by sleeping with cain's daughters right the cainite women so the believers and the

00:28:44.540 unbelievers got married, and it polluted the lime. Now, on the surface, this might seem feasible. 0.69

00:28:51.220 Again, we're going against the fact that sons of God is never used to speak of sons of Seth,

00:28:56.280 but notice this word daughters, verses 1 and 2. When man began to multiply on the face of the land,

00:29:02.040 and daughters were born to them. Does it say Cainite daughters? Unbelieving, wicked, evil 0.98

00:29:09.040 daughters. It just says daughters. Everyone agrees that daughters in verse one is general, 1.00

00:29:15.120 not restricted to Canaanite daughters. Now verse two, and the sons of God saw that the daughters

00:29:21.340 of man were attractive and they took the wise of any they chose. Doesn't it make sense that if

00:29:27.920 daughters is general in verse one, that it's also general in verse two, speaking of just daughters

00:29:33.660 of women. But if you hold to the sons of Seth theory, you have to say, well, in verse one,

00:29:38.520 it is general, but in verse 2, it's a specific kind of daughter of man. It's Cainite daughters.

00:29:44.720 But that's even doubly hard, because not only does it violate the context of verse 1, that it's

00:29:50.880 general, he actually generalizes it with an adjective, a descriptor, where he calls them

00:29:55.360 daughters of man. It doesn't say daughters of Cain. And so, to me, when you put the direct

00:30:03.400 context of Genesis 6, 1 to 2, that you're asking me to restrict the meaning of daughters to mean

00:30:09.180 only Cain's unbelieving wicked daughters, that's the first part. And then two, to ignore that sons

00:30:16.340 of God always in the scripture means some kind of angelic celestial being, that's just too much.

00:30:23.500 So I've chosen to accept the fact that something really weird happened, and that is that some kind

00:30:29.480 of angelic being, uh, slept with human women. And I would be willing to say, and I mean, Michael

00:30:37.680 differ on many of our positions. I would be willing to say that the Ben Elohim in, in Genesis

00:30:42.900 chapter six are in fact, some kind of supernatural divine being. When I say divine, I don't mean in

00:30:49.380 the sense of God, but in the sense of, uh, angelic spiritual being. Um, and I think that we can

00:30:54.680 actually prove that in like jude uh verses five through seven um but but as guys are you about to

00:31:00.220 say something i disagree with because i think i agree with this i was going to say when it comes

00:31:04.080 to the nephilim particularly i am not willing to live on the same level of confidence that the

00:31:09.860 nephilim are in fact angel human hybrids as confidently as i am to say that ben elohim

00:31:15.600 are angels so so here's here's the the reference in jude and then we'll back up to the nephilim

00:31:20.580 thing, but in June verses six and seven, it says, and the angels who did not stay within their own

00:31:26.460 position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he kept an eternal change under gloomy

00:31:31.100 darkness until the judgment of the great day, just as Sodom and Gomorrah in the surrounding

00:31:37.080 cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desires,

00:31:43.800 serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire. So here in this example,

00:31:49.640 he is contrasting angels who left their natural and rightful dwelling and practiced in sexual

00:31:56.700 immorality. And he contrasts the men of Sodom who practiced a sexual immorality that was unnatural 0.53

00:32:02.480 to the angels who practiced something that was unnatural. Now, there's a common objection that

00:32:08.400 typically gets brought up in a passage like this, where the Sadducees, they were sad because they

00:32:13.520 didn't believe in the resurrection, you see, according to Ravenhill. They were Sadducees.

00:32:16.360 That's why they were Sadducee. Anyway, so the Sadducees approach Jesus. They're like, hey, this lady gets married. Her husband dies. According to the law, she has to marry the next guy down in the family bloodline. And she marries all seven of the brothers all the way down. Whose wife is she in the resurrection? And Jesus responds, hey, you foolish guys. Like, don't you know that in the resurrection, there's neither giving marriage or giving in marriage will be like the angels. 0.86

00:32:37.500 So the argumentation in response to Jude in Genesis is that, hey, Jesus said there's no sexual intercourse. That's not what it said, though. It says that there's no marriage. There's no kind of union like there is marriage here.

00:32:50.840 Now, I would suggest that Jesus is male. Jesus is in heaven and he is male. And it would be unnatural for Jesus to practice an act such as this, though he is still male in heaven. And when we go to heaven, we will represent God, both male and female. We're going to possess all of our natural organs, yet it would be unnatural for us to practice in such actions. So I'd make the case that angels could at least potentially have male anatomy.

00:33:16.660 me. I completely agree. Let me add something to that real quick. A couple of things. So one with, 0.78

00:33:21.680 I'm glad you brought up the Jude text. If you didn't, I was, I was definitely wanted us to get

00:33:25.160 there. Um, but one thing that's interesting is he's comparing, um, in, in Jude chapters and the

00:33:30.700 angels who did not stay within their own position of authority. So, but left their proper dwelling

00:33:34.820 place. So the first thing I would say with that, liking it to, uh, Jesus, when they try to stump

00:33:38.900 him with the woman who had seven husbands, uh, one, uh, when Jesus says that people are, are

00:33:43.860 neither given a marriage or or in uh the the state of marriage covenant marriage in heaven

00:33:48.860 um jesus he's he's talking about in heaven that's right uh where these angels left their proper

00:33:57.060 dwelling place so they left heaven so so that doesn't conflict with jesus at all because what

00:34:01.700 jesus is doing he's saying this is the state of what what's obviously implied is jesus is saying

00:34:06.780 this is um the state of of citizens in heaven who are submitted to the righteous rule of god that

00:34:13.580 That has no bearing on rebel angels who have left their proper dwelling place.

00:34:18.460 And then also, you know, Jude compares it just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which one thing that happened in Sodom and Gomorrah is that angels came and visited Lot and the people of Sodom wanted to have sex with them.

00:34:34.940 That's right.

00:34:36.000 You know, which is kind of an uncanny coincidence, you know.

00:34:39.900 Absolutely.

00:34:40.820 Yeah.

00:34:40.980 And it says in Jude seven, they, that they, uh, likewise indulged in sexual immorality

00:34:48.040 and pursued a natural desire.

00:34:49.520 So, uh, whenever he mentions fallen angels in verse six, and then he uses the word likewise,

00:34:56.440 he's suggesting that fallen angels did commit sexual immorality.

00:35:01.880 Uh, in fact, I would say he's not suggesting it.

00:35:04.560 He's saying it clearly.

00:35:05.920 And so as weird as it is to us that apparently some kind of an angelic being can engage in intercourse with a human being, that actually is what the text directly says.

00:35:17.860 And it's what Genesis 6 also teaches if we can agree on what sons of God are, that those are, in fact, angels.

00:35:26.020 So now that I think that we can do away with the it's really weird and it can't happen, let me just speak to like practically how I think it could potentially happen.

00:35:36.220 I think, Joel, this is kind of what you're going for.

00:35:38.280 The very fact that it is just 18 or 19.

00:35:41.700 I can't remember which, but in in the Sodom and Gomorrah story that the men, if they actually carried through with their desire, you know, the angels end up blinding them and they, you know, they aren't able to have sex with the angels.

00:35:55.180 but they intend to and the suggestion of the text is that they would have and so and so my point is

00:36:02.860 we have a scenario where sex with angels becomes a possibility and uh and so it shouldn't stretch

00:36:11.620 the mind too crazy and when you read the text itself the angels look and act like human beings

00:36:19.540 they're humanoid for sure right there so they they're like angels that have taken on some kind

00:36:23.900 human body so in my imagination of it not that i imagine about it too much but anyway in my

00:36:30.780 estimation put it that way i'll use a different word in genesis chapter six these these angels

00:36:38.540 somehow inhabit use the word humanoid uh inhabit human bodies and sleep with human women but it

00:36:46.380 mixes a seed and then we'll see if that gets to nephilim we'll see i think i think with

00:36:51.660 with i think there's a mediated position with peter gentry peter gentry would say um when he

00:36:57.000 comes to this text and we mentioned this in a show that we did recently kind of preparing for this

00:37:00.900 um it says uh and two for their wives yeah uh and then in verse four the nephilim were on the earth

00:37:08.880 in those days and also afterward now he looked up the phrase and also afterward and every single

00:37:15.340 time it was used in scripture it means that it happened before and afterward so he was he was

00:37:21.420 using this text to suggest that the Nephilim or our place marker, that those who lived in that day

00:37:26.740 in Moses's time had a lot of mythology surrounding the Nephilim. And hey, there's Nephilim down here

00:37:33.400 in the days where they're about to inhabit Israel. Where are these Nephilim coming from? 0.98

00:37:38.440 And he's saying, hey, look, these guys existed before the angels and afterward, is the way that

00:37:44.160 Peter Gentry would argue. Now, there are other scholars such as Dr. Michael Heiser, who we've

00:37:48.640 had on the show multiple times and many others who would go to extra biblical literature such

00:37:54.420 as the book of Enoch and other texts to say, what would Jewish people would have thought about

00:37:59.360 Nephilim? And in those texts, it seems as if the Nephilim are directly attributed to being

00:38:05.300 angel-human hybrids. Now, I don't know that I can say with a level of confidence that I can say

00:38:11.080 the sons of God are angels. But would you say they probably are? I could say potentially. I

00:38:16.220 would say I would say possibly I want to speak with a level of confidence I think the scripture

00:38:19.540 does yeah I would go with probably I would agree with you that I don't think we can say definitively

00:38:25.200 sure uh based on Peter Gentry's argument that hey this comment like like the fact that it mentions

00:38:30.740 sons of God angelic angelic beings sleeping with human daughters that doesn't necessarily mean

00:38:37.420 that the next verse about the Nephilim is trying to communicate that these are offspring of them

00:38:43.440 it could just be communicating this is a time marker um he has one other argument and that's

00:38:49.040 that that this sentence doesn't start with and and that when that almost every sentence in the

00:38:53.800 hebrew bible starts with and and because this doesn't start with and it must mean that he is

00:38:59.700 writing a footnote to the ahead thought so those are his two thoughts suggesting that this right

00:39:04.440 so basically he thinks the nephilim are mighty warriors who were tall yep now we can all we can

00:39:11.180 agree that Nephilim were mighty warriors who were tall, right? Yeah. In fact, the word Nephilim is

00:39:17.840 used twice in the Bible, once in Genesis six. And I think you might've mentioned this verse,

00:39:23.360 Joel. Numbers 13. Numbers 13. Yeah. And on those two occasions, the Septuagint,

00:39:31.020 which was the Greek translation of the Old Testament, the Septuagint actually translates

00:39:36.000 it as giants and so the reason i feel comfortable saying probably uh on that the nephilim probably

00:39:44.820 were the offspring of the sons of god and the daughters of men is it's it seems as though the

00:39:52.680 flow of the text is trying to drive us to the wickedness of man in the flood and it seems as

00:39:57.960 though the flow of the text is you have this unholy union you have the product of that unholy union

00:40:04.500 giants and nephilim and look at all the violence and craziness on the earth and you look at

00:40:11.500 that throughout the scripture and it looks really bad so that would be one argument for it i think

00:40:16.360 the other argument second temple literature specifically first enoch it is not canonical

00:40:23.060 it is not entirely it is not the word of god for us today but it does inform us upon the worldview

00:40:29.860 just like i quoted and mentioned the septuagint earlier the fact that it that it was a translation

00:40:36.800 into the greek it helps us that they translated it as giants it helps you know okay jewish people

00:40:41.640 thought of these as giants when they're trying to figure out what that's a fair argument for sure

00:40:44.920 in the same way when you quoted from uh jude 5 through 8 or whatever it was uh and it talked

00:40:52.420 about these final fallen angels and held in gloomy dungeons for the day of judgment that's

00:40:57.260 exactly what the book of first enoch says it says that these angels uh are being stored for the day

00:41:04.720 of judgment it's my belief that revelation 9 actually talks about their release and uh leading

00:41:10.560 up to the judgment that's a whole nother story but um point being that if this helps us crawl

00:41:16.620 into their worldview that this is the way they interpreted it this is the way the uh you know

00:41:22.560 the uh people who wrote scripture interpreted it and uh i i think it makes a case for it so putting

00:41:30.460 all of that together i feel like we could say probably but i still wouldn't say definitively

00:41:34.500 would you go 80 yeah 80 joel i don't want to interrupt you though because let me hop in

00:41:39.760 yeah no no that's all that's really good so um one thing that i would say is like i appreciate

00:41:45.360 what you're saying michael um and i would be right there with you because this i taught through

00:41:50.280 Genesis about two or three years, two and a half years ago, I think, when I was still in California

00:41:55.820 and I taught this text. And at the time I held to the position that it was sons of God were

00:42:02.260 the sons of Seth. And as of now, I would hold to the position of the sons of God being fallen

00:42:10.780 angels. Is it because of what we just said? Did we change your opinion on here? No, I mean like

00:42:16.660 Just now, just now did you change.

00:42:19.220 No, I came into this recording already with my mind changed.

00:42:22.680 But my point in saying that is because what you mentioned multiple times, Michael, that I think is just really good just as almost like a pastoral moment real quick for our listeners is, yeah, there's weird stuff in the Bible.

00:42:37.740 And the reason why I held to the Sons of Seth position two and a half years ago, I'm convinced, knowing my heart, is because it just sounded a lot more sane.

00:42:47.580 It sounded more intelligent and credible.

00:42:53.680 And at the end of the day, I want to believe what's true.

00:42:56.780 I want to believe what the Bible says.

00:42:57.940 It doesn't matter how it sounds.

00:43:00.380 And God, you know, and so this position. 0.97

00:43:03.520 We've got talking donkeys. 0.84

00:43:03.560 This isn't that crazy.

00:43:04.340 Yeah, exactly. 0.78

00:43:04.820 We have talking donkeys.

00:43:05.880 Yeah. 1.00

00:43:05.960 So like, so if I was talking with an unbeliever, they're going to think I'm crazy, but you

00:43:09.820 know what? 0.96

00:43:10.100 They think everything I believe is crazy.

00:43:12.160 We worship a crucified savior that we believe bodily rose from the dead, you know?

00:43:16.140 And so, um, that, that just can't be an inhibitor that, that can't be the guiding force for

00:43:20.700 what Christians believe.

00:43:22.160 Um, so the idea of fallen angels, um, now if that contradicts scripture, then let's 0.86

00:43:27.720 reject it wholeheartedly. 0.87

00:43:28.920 Um, but we shouldn't reject anything because it sounds dumb. 0.99

00:43:33.040 That's, that's just that, that, uh, that's dumb. 0.88

00:43:35.960 motive in the heart of man is that is the fear of man. That's approval. We want the approval of man 0.95

00:43:41.740 and we need to recognize that as being sinful. So for any of our listeners right now who, you know,

00:43:46.900 your view, even as you're listening to this, if your view in any way is being guided by what

00:43:52.180 sounds, um, not, not most possible, that's different than what sounds most, um, acceptable

00:43:58.340 in, in, in the minds of other, other people. If that's your guiding, that's a hermeneutic.

00:44:04.120 And that is a unbiblical, heretical hermeneutic.

00:44:07.220 That is a wrong way of reading scripture.

00:44:08.920 That's reading scripture in submission to man rather than reading scripture in submission to God.

00:44:13.660 And so we want to fear God, not fear man.

00:44:16.080 So I just wanted to make that pastoral point and then back to the conversation at hand.

00:44:21.740 So 2 Peter, because we use the Jude text, 2 Peter 2, verses 4 through 6, very similar.

00:44:29.120 It says, for if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment.

00:44:38.020 All right.

00:44:38.300 And I'm going to pause right there.

00:44:39.520 Go back to Jude.

00:44:40.440 Jude chapter, well, chapter one, the only chapter in Jude.

00:44:43.820 But verse five and six says, I want to remind you, although we once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt afterwards, destroyed those who did not believe.

00:44:53.340 verse six, here we are. And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority,

00:44:57.900 but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the

00:45:03.000 judgment of the great day. So verse, so verse six of Jude and second Peter chapter two verses four

00:45:11.800 through six, both of them talk about this, this, these gloomy dungeons and chains and these fallen

00:45:18.300 angels uh rebellious angels being held prisoners until the day of judgment and so my my question

00:45:24.960 is this um how if if god cast these angels out of heaven into gloomy dungeons it seems like there's 0.95

00:45:34.080 got to be some kind of step in between how did they have sex with human women because you know

00:45:39.360 what i mean both jude and second peter chapter two talk about they they were in heaven they left

00:45:45.240 their proper dwelling place and they're being held prisoner did they get out of prison or did

00:45:51.200 they fall from heaven and they were on earth god allowed them to be on the earth for a time until

00:45:55.820 he locked them in gloomy dungeons what are you guys thoughts on that am i making sense yeah i

00:46:02.340 think so so i i've always understood it that they departed they did their wicked deed and when you

00:46:09.780 when you look at the book of Jude and it connects sexual immorality with

00:46:14.800 their actual fall. So they, they left,

00:46:18.840 they committed this, this wicked form of immorality.

00:46:24.300 And as a result of that, God judged them.

00:46:26.820 I feel like it's been a while since I've read first Enoch.

00:46:29.880 I feel as though that is actually the sequence that it talks through it,

00:46:33.720 but I can't quite remember.

00:46:35.060 Well, I think that's the sequence in the prior text we were just in, you know,

00:46:38.640 when we look at jude oh you're gonna go back to the bible huh yeah i mean you know i we could

00:46:42.640 talk about enoch all day if you want to um no but see like in jude five and five through seven

00:46:47.540 see i read six through seven but if we back up um now i wanted to remind you that although you once

00:46:52.420 fully knew it that jesus who saved people out of the land of egypt afterward destroyed those who

00:46:58.280 did not believe right so it's contrasting he saves these people out who had right faith

00:47:04.680 and then it destroyed these people who had wrong faith and and then he goes tells these two other

00:47:10.640 stories in addition to that um of of people who were did not have faith and thus because they did

00:47:15.760 not have faith were disobedient uh we angels left the right place sodom gomorrah right these are

00:47:21.080 both this is a byproduct and god is bringing judgment for what sinful actions so again this

00:47:27.640 passage seems to imply that it's sinful actions that brings the judgment it's the sinful actions

00:47:31.800 places them in chains why what caused them to leave their heavenly abode well they left their

00:47:36.840 heavenly abode for these sexual actions that's how i always understand that was unnatural and thus

00:47:41.440 after that they were placed in chains so josh you're saying if i understand you right you're

00:47:46.380 saying that just like israel there's a 40-year gap between their deliverance from from bondage

00:47:52.040 and slavery and then their their destruction of that original generation of israelites who were 0.98

00:47:57.860 delivered out of Egypt 40 years later because of their unbelief, their evil actions and grumbling 0.74

00:48:03.480 and complaining against God and against his prophet Moses. They were ultimately caused to 0.88

00:48:07.900 die out in the wilderness. And yet there's 40 years in between that they're wandering in the

00:48:12.020 wilderness and they're able to commit those sinful acts. And so we would say these angels did commit

00:48:16.980 the sinful act of rebelling against God and whatever that looked like, and therefore were

00:48:24.540 removed from heaven but perhaps the text perhaps both Jude and second Peter chapter two is saying

00:48:30.280 that there's almost like um like two steps of sinful actions one step that gets them booted

00:48:35.040 from heaven and and now they're on earth just like the Israelites for 40 years out of out of Egypt

00:48:40.160 but not in yet into Canaan they're in in the wilderness wandering and so so too these fallen

00:48:46.520 angels perhaps they rebelled against God booted from heaven but then began to rebel against God

00:48:51.640 further by trying to dilute the messianic line and god said oh okay not only are you kicked out

00:48:57.220 of heaven to you know like like where i think his revelation says but woe to you oh earth for the

00:49:02.000 devil has come down to you and and so like it's like the first progression is you rebel against

00:49:06.760 god you're out of heaven on the earth and then you rebel against god further on the earth and so now

00:49:11.260 it's almost like god saying you're you're too dangerous i'm gonna lock you in gloomy dungeons

00:49:15.980 and there could have been this time period post i'm curious if they're one in the same i think

00:49:20.420 dungeons yeah that that could be the right answer but i think it could also be one of the same like

00:49:24.880 why did they leave heaven would they leave heaven out of rebellion with satan and genesis one

00:49:28.780 maybe or or maybe they have left progressively maybe they have been progressively falling and

00:49:34.720 rebelling there's no chronological order in which all of the angels had to all leave at the same

00:49:39.540 time i mean it would have been progressive uh you could have an angel in heaven who looks down and

00:49:43.900 goes that's a beautiful woman and then was in a rightful place and then left his abode to commit

00:49:48.740 that same sexual act right well so like i'm thinking of like i mean to use a human example

00:49:53.260 david and basheba starts he's out he's up on top of his building that place of pride which is what

00:49:58.640 it's the false teachers that jude is trying to condemn here he's talking about pride and uh

00:50:03.620 authority issues but uh but david in in this place of pride is up on top of the building sees this

00:50:09.760 woman so he see he has her taken and then he sleeps with her like in a sense that's all like

00:50:15.920 part of the same rebellious fall that you could and then you want to put uriah into that too

00:50:22.900 it's like this and it's kind of like a golf swing how do you break it down it's like the

00:50:27.180 whole thing's a golf swing it's been it's like you got a backswing at the ball strike i don't

00:50:31.000 know i see it as all one that he's trying because because his sodom and gomorrah connection seems

00:50:36.640 to to strongly connect sexual immorality uh with abandoning authority so i would say that they

00:50:44.400 were probably placed under chains when the earth was flooded like it makes sense to me where it's

00:50:49.640 like hey the women who practiced in these relationships with angels they also committed

00:50:54.460 sin when did god bring judgment when he flooded the earth it makes sense that when the human

00:50:59.520 peoples were judged that the angelic peoples were judged alongside them around the same time

00:51:04.200 so that's just kind of the way i break it down but that's just that i mean that's definitely

00:51:07.880 possible one thing that i've read is um that they were put in chains in in the ministry of

00:51:14.240 jesus um that you know jesus tells the parable of plundering the house you must first go and

00:51:19.500 bind the strong man and uh and so that you know and kind of part of this goes into the post mill

00:51:25.400 position that i would i would personally hold but the idea that um that you know that you're

00:51:31.140 binding the strong man satan no longer able to deceive the nations and that in the the life and

00:51:35.900 death and resurrection of jesus uh that the strong man has been bound that uh that satan is no longer

00:51:42.220 able to deceive the nations at the same degree, in the same manner that he previously was able to

00:51:50.160 do so. And so, you know, I've heard some guys make the argument that they were roaming freely

00:51:56.900 on the earth until ultimately were locked in gloomy dungeons by Jesus, who bound the strong

00:52:02.860 man. But so with that, so that gets to another question that we really need to get to, which is

00:52:07.900 just um if the if the nephilim how so were the nephilim in numbers uh uh chapter 13 verses 32

00:52:18.020 how did they survive a flood how did they survive a flood so so so basically the question is um if

00:52:24.720 only eight persons we believe the scripture uh we know eight persons made it through that flood

00:52:29.660 noah his wife his three sons and their three wives now we know that that uh one of noah's

00:52:34.780 sons was cursed, but he wasn't a fallen angel. He wasn't a son of God. He was the literal

00:52:41.000 biological son of Noah. And so he was a bad man, but he wasn't a bad angel. And we're trusting

00:52:48.460 that Noah, that God preserved his lineage, he and his wife, to where Noah was not a hybrid

00:52:56.300 human fallen angel, and neither was Noah's wife, and therefore neither were their three sons. And

00:53:02.020 were believing the same for the three wives of the sun. So how did the Nephilim make it past the 0.96

00:53:08.120 flood? And maybe that gets to what you're saying, Josh, this progression of angels. Did angels fall

00:53:12.520 again, perhaps, after the flood, rebel again? Or another question is, and I kind of lean towards

00:53:18.740 this, were the spies in the days of Joshua and Caleb being the two good spies out of the 12,

00:53:23.480 the other 10 Israelite spies who brought a bad report, were they just cowards? Were they just,

00:53:29.620 you know, modern evangelical Christians in America, you know, like where they, you know, 0.56

00:53:33.600 like did, we saw, we saw the Nephilim, but they're really just like, you know, they're,

00:53:39.840 they were like five, 10 and just like, yeah, exactly. Like they were maybe meatheads, you 0.91

00:53:45.600 know, bodybuilding, you know, soldiers, but, but they weren't the Nephilim and they just use that 0.99

00:53:51.300 bringing a bad report because, because they were cowardly. I kind of, I kind of lean towards that. 0.99

00:53:55.320 So number one, in Numbers chapter 13, verses 32 through 33, do we know whether or not the Israelite spies actually saw Nephilim?

00:54:04.640 Is there any certainty with that?

00:54:06.260 And then what that gets to with the larger question is, did the Nephilim survive the flood?

00:54:12.820 We know the giants did. 0.91

00:54:14.700 We know that the Philistine.

00:54:16.820 David fought a giant.

00:54:19.660 That's right.

00:54:20.160 Goliath had a brother.

00:54:21.160 at the end of david's life there were guys who killing giants with six fingers and snowy

00:54:25.280 right exactly so yeah but anak and his in his lineage and goliath i believe is a part of that

00:54:30.880 so it could be you're right it could it could be in numbers 13 that these 10 spies who come back

00:54:40.080 are cowards and that technically they didn't see nephilim they saw dudes who were five foot

00:54:44.940 ten and standing on a platform and they didn't get a good good look they had platform shoes on 0.97

00:54:48.420 Yeah. So that could be, I would probably lean against that, but, but either way,

00:54:53.280 I don't think it matters that much because like we're saying there were giants,

00:54:57.180 nonetheless, nonetheless. So I think two theories that people throw out there.

00:55:03.380 And one of them, you mentioned Joel, and that is that angels have continued to fall

00:55:09.200 at various times and maybe not all the time, maybe just like once again, since the flood or

00:55:15.520 twice who knows but that basically it happened again okay so that's one theory maybe the most

00:55:22.080 popular another one certainly less common amongst evangelical scholars conservative scholars but

00:55:29.140 some conservative scholars will still say this that the flood was more localized and the way

00:55:37.040 they get around like the whole it was only eight people or that two things when it says like the

00:55:42.380 whole world was flooded they'll they'll say well whole world's kind of a relative term to them you

00:55:47.680 know paul says in colossians 1 the gospel has been preached throughout the whole world he doesn't

00:55:51.180 mean that literally the gospel has been preached in mongolia um but it's kind of just like a general

00:55:56.260 superlative term and then they'll say well and the the nephilim weren't human so there were eight

00:56:01.900 people that uh eight people that made it into the ark but uh the the nephilim might have somehow

00:56:12.120 survived they were standing on top it says the mountains were covered but the the nephilim are

00:56:16.180 on their they were just top of the mountain and their platform shoes yeah yeah and i'm pretty

00:56:21.280 sure and i'm pretty sure the uh i'm pretty sure the babylonian like flood myths or whatever talk

00:56:26.280 about their their giants surviving the flood uh go ahead so yeah so i totally understand that i i

00:56:32.340 would lean against that view just because you know god promises never to flood the earth again and we

00:56:37.520 have floods all the time and so so you know one of the ways that we understand that god hasn't

00:56:42.780 broken his covenant um is that it's not a global flood and so if it was a territorial flood now it

00:56:49.120 totally makes sense i understand what you're saying like the world but if it's then i would

00:56:53.240 no i know it's not i know it's not yours i know you're just saying that is you know what some

00:56:58.020 people believe and so i'm just stating for our listeners that would not be my view um not not

00:57:02.760 because because i i mean in terms of the word world i'm a calvinist so so i'm totally down for

00:57:08.280 interpreting the word world you know the world meaning you know um every tribe tongue and

00:57:13.920 language without necessarily meaning each and every individual or the known world so i i don't

00:57:18.380 have problems with those interpretations the problem that i would have is is less of of

00:57:23.160 understanding the world in that context because the word world is used in multiple different ways

00:57:27.920 I mean, just John, in Joe and I in text, he uses the word world in at least four different ways to describe, you know, the evil system under Satan's domain in order to talk about the cosmos, the physical creation, in order to talk about worldly people.

00:57:42.840 So there's just all, you know, worldliness.

00:57:44.840 And so I'm totally down for that.

00:57:46.400 But the biggest thing is we all three of us, we definitely believe that God doesn't break his promises.

00:57:51.100 And so for me, I'm not an expert on flood history, but from the little bit that I've gathered, there have been some massive floods of massive areas.

00:58:02.940 And so then it's like whatever God said he wasn't going to do, it seems like he's done again.

00:58:08.760 One real cool thing, though, with God hanging his bow in the sky, Revelation says that eventually he's going to take that bow back down, that it's a weapon.

00:58:17.000 So God flooded the earth, destroyed everyone, and hung his bow, that it's weaponry, it's war, yeah, it's war language, and that God, you know, that Christ, when he returns, is going to take the bow back down and ride on that white horse.

00:58:32.980 So I love that.

00:58:34.500 So it's like God has, in his common grace for a time, is bearing with long-suffering, great patience, sin, but he's going to take that bow back down. 0.88

00:58:43.120 So anyways, the last thing I was going to say with that is it also just seems to defeat the purpose because it seems like the main thing that God is doing in the flood is wiping out the Nephilim. 0.93

00:58:52.800 So the idea that, you know what I mean?

00:58:55.020 So it just seems kind of, so even though I don't have a clear text to describe a progression of angels falling on Monday and then some more following later on Tuesday, that is easier for me to swallow because that doesn't seem to blatantly contradict anything in Scripture.

00:59:11.700 Whereas the other view, I'd rather take an implicit view of this progressive fall of angels than take what seems to be an explicitly contradicting view of God didn't actually flood the whole world and the whole purpose of judging the world he actually failed in because some Nephilim were able to escape.

00:59:35.300 Basically, God was impotent in his attempt to judge.

00:59:39.060 And if there's an additional option.

00:59:40.160 He gets it done.

00:59:41.700 there's one additional option to those as well is that the,

00:59:45.000 that the Nephilim in Genesis six are just a time marker,

00:59:47.660 like Peter Gentry said.

00:59:49.020 So if it is,

00:59:50.460 Hey,

00:59:50.660 these just happen to be giants.

00:59:53.800 Right.

00:59:55.160 Then you get,

00:59:56.640 you get around all the texts.

00:59:57.840 It's real easy.

00:59:58.360 Like,

00:59:58.500 yeah, 0.64

00:59:58.820 David fought a giant donkey talk too. 0.99

01:00:01.000 There's some weird stuff. 0.99

01:00:01.780 There's some talk.

01:00:02.300 There's a real tall mighty men of valor that kind of,

01:00:04.560 his theory doesn't explain where giants came from.

01:00:07.340 No,

01:00:07.700 but he's just kind of cool with that.

01:00:09.300 He's like,

01:00:09.580 yeah,

01:00:09.900 there were some giants.

01:00:10.900 Yeah.

01:00:11.140 I mean, we got some tall people walking around today that have got, like, some specific disorders.

01:00:16.400 Yao Ming, Nephilim, for sure.

01:00:17.960 That dude's huge.

01:00:19.080 That dude, no, no, no.

01:00:21.960 Barack Obama, though.

01:00:23.260 Barack Obama, have you seen that painting?

01:00:25.180 He's got a six-finger.

01:00:27.020 I'm just kidding.

01:00:27.500 Here's the thing.

01:00:28.100 Here's the thing.

01:00:28.780 With the – even when we say Nephilim, we're prepackaging that.

01:00:32.140 When I say Yao Ming's Nephilim, the prepackaged meaning is, oh, he's the son of an angel.

01:00:36.320 But see, I didn't – that's if you assume that definition.

01:00:39.020 Right.

01:00:39.260 Right?

01:00:39.580 Right?

01:00:39.820 The Nephilim show up in Genesis 6, and clearly Moses, who's writing Genesis 6, know who the Nephilim are and is writing commentary on the Nephilim.

01:00:49.460 But he doesn't give us a definition.

01:00:51.620 Because we have extra biblical texts, we clearly know who the sons of God are.

01:00:58.680 The scriptures clearly identify them in the Old Testament.

01:01:01.700 We have commentary in the New Testament from apostolic writings.

01:01:04.800 So we have confidence in who the Elohim are. 0.95

01:01:07.080 But the Nephilim, I think that there can be some wiggle room.

01:01:09.680 I think that we get to speak on them with the level of clarity that the scripture does and saying, hey, they existed for sure.

01:01:16.660 But we don't know how, where, why.

01:01:18.620 Let me, I think, Josh, honestly, like we were joking earlier about like my view, you know, changing right now.

01:01:26.000 I actually, I think it is changing right now because I think you're making a really compelling argument.

01:01:31.600 So just reading, plain reading of the text, when man began to multiply, Genesis 6, man began to multiply in the face of the earth, face of the land and daughters were born to them.

01:01:39.040 The sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive.

01:01:41.760 All three of us are agreeing.

01:01:43.060 Sons of God means angels.

01:01:44.660 It's fallen angels.

01:01:45.780 So, but, but I think maybe we just, in our Western minds are just, we're saying that

01:01:52.280 these things, they have to correlate when maybe they don't.

01:01:56.000 So like the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive and they took as their

01:01:59.880 wives, any they chose.

01:02:00.900 So we could say fallen angels, everything we've said, still holding, trying to pervert, 0.67

01:02:04.900 stop the messianic line by deluding the seed of the woman. That's verses one and two. Then verse

01:02:10.560 three. So the Lord said, my spirit shall not abide in man forever for he is flesh. His day

01:02:15.560 shall be 120 years. Real quick. My view on that is not, well, Moses lived to be 120 years and

01:02:20.480 that's what this is talking about. And Kenneth Copeland, he's going to be 120. I don't, I don't

01:02:24.220 believe that. He makes that claim. But what I do believe about verse three is that, that basically

01:02:31.860 my view is that, um, these sons of God, fallen angels came to the earth, um, approximately 120

01:02:39.320 years before God sent the flood. Um, so that's, that's my view. And, and that lines up with other,

01:02:46.780 uh, texts in Genesis, for instance, it took about a hundred years. We know from scripture for Noah

01:02:51.500 just even to build the ark. And so it was 120 year period of Noah and Noah was a heralder. 1.00

01:02:56.780 Noah was a preacher, right? So he was a heralder of righteousness. And there's a sense in which

01:03:02.280 Christ preached. So that's now instead of second Peter chapter two, that's first Peter Christ

01:03:07.780 preached to spirits in dungeons. And, and so I don't believe in a descent to hell, but a descent

01:03:14.980 when Jesus died to Hades to shield to the grave. And so I don't believe that Christ himself,

01:03:21.360 But I believe the spirit of Christ through Noah was preaching for approximately 120 years, 100 of that during the building of the ark to the wicked hybrid generation of fallen angels, sons of God and women preaching repentance. 0.93

01:03:39.620 They did not listen. 0.97

01:03:41.780 And so verse three, then the Lord said, my spirit shall not abide in man forever.

01:03:44.900 So because fallen angels were polluting the messianic line where the seed, the serpent crusher was going to come, God said, all right, that's enough of that.

01:03:54.880 This is not going to go on forever.

01:03:57.040 120 years, not each individual man is going to live for 120 years or 120 years is going to be the cap of man's lifespan, but rather 120 years until I destroy everyone through the flood.

01:04:08.640 And then verse 4, it says, it almost seems like it's like changing subjects.

01:04:12.920 You know, it's like, all right, verse one through three, got that.

01:04:16.440 Now verse four.

01:04:17.220 Oh, also, by the way, the Nephilim were on the earth during those days.

01:04:19.900 And also afterwards when the sons of God came. 0.78

01:04:22.680 And so it could be like the Nephilim were on the earth in those days because they came from the sons of God having sex with daughters of men and bore children to them. 0.66

01:04:35.880 And so we're just reading in verse four. 0.83

01:04:37.820 We're reading Nephilim are those children born by the daughters of man and sons of God.

01:04:42.140 whereas it could very well be saying the nephilim happened to be there too right so the nephilim

01:04:47.580 you're familiar with that passage in genesis where he says the garden which was east of eden

01:04:51.940 wait so some people have postulated okay well then there's that means there was a city in eden

01:04:56.500 and the god made an entire city and then east of that he built adam and eve so adam and eve aren't

01:05:00.480 the father of all whoa whoa whoa settle down so what if moses was just saying this is a geographical

01:05:05.040 place that my readers are familiar with and it was east of this place that my readers are familiar

01:05:09.120 with not that god had literally created a city and then created a temple with people in it what

01:05:14.300 if he's just using this as a time marker or a space marker to inform his specific audience

01:05:19.200 that that's what i think for me i just think that contextually if this is all driving toward the

01:05:24.880 flood and wickedness like why would he mention this random thing it just like it seems like a

01:05:31.340 well i don't think it's random it seems like a point foot pointless footnote it doesn't it doesn't

01:05:35.420 do anything. Uh, whereas if you start with in verse two, the sons of God, they, uh, they took

01:05:41.640 the daughters of, of women as wives. So they went into them. So there's sexual intercourse in verse 0.81

01:05:47.820 two. And then in verse four, it's not only intercourse, but the bearing of children, 0.70

01:05:53.480 it seems to be a continuous flow of thought driving down to them, bearing of children.

01:05:58.880 And so with the Nephilim listed right in the middle of that, it seems that the Nephilim

01:06:03.800 would be those children again i'm not saying definitively i'm just saying yes well i'm with

01:06:08.780 you michael i i definitely think that makes sense and i probably i i feel like right now i'm kind of

01:06:14.060 just torn like in the middle i think i can totally see that being it but i don't think it i don't

01:06:18.240 think the alternative view means that that verse four would be random i see it as like verse four

01:06:23.340 still has a ton of significance because it's saying all the more reason for the flood there

01:06:27.840 are two reasons for the flood um whereas you're saying there's one reason son sons of god being

01:06:33.300 fallen angels had sex with the daughters of men and produced the Nephilim. And we got to wipe that

01:06:38.220 out. Whereas you could say verse four is still significant with the other view saying there's

01:06:43.020 two reasons. There's the sons of God trying to disrupt the messianic line, um, the fallen angels,

01:06:48.800 and there's the Nephilim who are not necessarily the hybrid offspring of fallen angels and man,

01:06:55.840 But they are men of renown. They are giants like Goliath and Anak. And in this state where fallen angels are influencing people, giants, that much physical prowess and capacity with unchecked depravity, right?

01:07:16.920 That, like, heading towards from total depravity, heading outward manifestations towards utter depravity, I would imagine giants could do a lot of damage, even more violence if you're 10 feet tall than someone who's 5'10".

01:07:30.380 Yeah, especially because, like, if you consider that they were, like, born of the union between sons of God.

01:07:37.220 You can tell her in a sarcasm voice.

01:07:38.940 I couldn't detect it for years.

01:07:40.600 As soon as he said the word, yeah, I've known Michael for 13 years.

01:07:44.500 As soon as he said, yeah, I was like, okay, he's going to make fun of me on my show.

01:07:49.700 It took Josh like three or four months to figure it out.

01:07:53.760 And he's like, and then once he got it, now he can't unget it.

01:08:00.160 All right.

01:08:01.000 Well, guys, that was awesome.

01:08:02.720 Let's go ahead and end this episode. 0.81

01:08:04.700 I expected you to talk trash back. 0.88

01:08:06.540 You were just like, you're holding on. 0.87

01:08:09.440 It's good. 0.99

01:08:09.940 Well, talking trash takes time because if I talk trash, then you're going to talk trash. 0.98

01:08:13.940 And then we're going to be here for 30 more minutes and everyone's going to be bored. 0.97

01:08:16.360 So let's go ahead and land the plane. 0.98

01:08:18.280 I'm going to be the bigger man who doesn't talk trash, which ironically is me talking trash. 0.98

01:08:22.300 So this is how I want to end it.

01:08:27.640 You guys let our listeners know how they can follow you and how they can, you know, how can they keep up with you and what some of the stuff you guys got in the pipeline.

01:08:36.840 And then our listeners, make sure every time you listen to Ruminant Radio, come back and listen to me two times just to make sure that they're not screwing with your mind, getting some weird guests on that show.

01:08:47.940 Yeah.

01:08:49.020 So, guys, check us out, Ruminant Radio, the Ruminant Radio on YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok.

01:08:56.120 YouTube is the place.

01:08:58.800 We're on podcasting platforms and everything else.

01:09:00.900 And like Joel said earlier, man, there are going to be people on our show that you're going to disagree with

01:09:04.480 because we interview everyone from across the spectrum, Lutherans, Anglicans, Methodists, Pentecostals.

01:09:09.160 And we disagree with.

01:09:09.940 Yeah, many of them we disagree with. 0.90

01:09:11.700 There are guys, probably one or two guys we've interviewed that we didn't even know were Orthodox,

01:09:15.680 and the reason we did the interview was to ask those kinds of essential Orthodox kinds of questions.

01:09:20.840 Jesus is the Son of God. Is he divine? Those kinds of things.

01:09:24.580 Man, I think it's a great place to kind of maybe break outside of the normal things you've been listening to

01:09:28.900 and find out what other traditions have to say about a matter.

01:09:32.280 I mean, heck, I think the Lutheran tradition has a lot to add to the Christian faith.

01:09:35.920 And they've kind of been their own corner of Protestantism for a very long time.

01:09:38.920 And I think that we could glean a lot from them.

01:09:41.220 Yeah, and if you name like one of the well-known Bible scholars or pastors,

01:09:46.600 theologians from around the world, we have probably interviewed them.

01:09:49.980 And so we do interviews on Wednesday.

01:09:52.820 We do do a show on the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

01:09:55.020 And that's less interview, more just right now we're talking through various

01:09:58.460 revivals you did an episode we did an episode on the brownsville revival uh and so but we we do it

01:10:03.960 in a way that we're we're thinking critically uh i mean you just heard us for whatever hour and a

01:10:08.560 half or whatever this was we think biblically theologically exegetically all the things um

01:10:13.140 and so we do have a wednesday show on that we're starting a new one on church history

01:10:17.100 a new episode coming up soon but basically gives the spirit church history and then theology across

01:10:23.240 the spectrum we'll do episodes on the atonement we'll do uh an atonement theory we'll do episodes

01:10:28.900 on new perspective of paul and uh and then the biblical version of the old perspective of paul

01:10:35.120 there you go right but so um but we'll talk about all of it we'll talk about all of it and then uh

01:10:41.220 and so it's just a helpful like you said at the beginning of the show uh joel it uh busts out of

01:10:48.820 your theological echo chamber. Helps you think in some new ways in a safe space that is orthodox.

01:10:55.060 Safe space. Joel loves that word.

01:10:57.220 Well, no, I appreciate what you guys have done. One of the things that Remnant Radio blessed me

01:11:02.080 with was, apart from just Michael's long-term friendship, but you guys connected me. Well,

01:11:08.080 you didn't even mean to do this. He just kind of picked up on it. But through you guys,

01:11:11.060 you connected me with Leighton Flowers. And it was good, not because I changed my view,

01:11:17.700 But it was good because I just, I remember talking to you, Michael, about it, you know,

01:11:21.680 like Leighton picked up on an episode I did with you guys with Calvinism and he started

01:11:25.340 critiquing it because, you know, he can only, you know, he's, you can only critique James

01:11:30.520 White so many times, you know, and so Leighton, Leighton needed to find someone else, you

01:11:34.080 know, the show must go on, you know, so anyway, so he found my episode that I did with you

01:11:38.100 guys and started critiquing me and then you guys let me do a response to him.

01:11:41.400 And then that culminated in a debate.

01:11:42.880 and uh my point is just to say that uh i remember talking to you about it michael you know um after

01:11:48.620 the debate and debriefing with you and you know it was like i didn't change my views but um but i

01:11:57.240 just realized man it had been like five six seven years since i had really like gotten in the ring

01:12:03.300 and sparred with someone over total depravity yeah because because i like the further you go

01:12:11.480 exactly the further you go in in in your life in anything spiritual theological in anything your

01:12:17.420 career path the the further you go the the more you get people who are like you specialized exactly

01:12:24.960 and and the less you interact with you know so like i you know like there's just certain things

01:12:30.380 that used to be regular i was always having these conversations because i was first coming into a

01:12:35.220 view which means all the relationships in my life my family my friends everybody were still in my

01:12:40.400 old view. And I'm coming out of that view into a new view like Calvinism. And I'm having to defend

01:12:45.500 this change in me to all of my friends. And so I'm being, but what about this? Or what about this?

01:12:51.620 And the problem of evil? And, you know, what about free will? And, and, and I remember when that was

01:12:56.420 just like every day, I was living and breathing those kinds of conversations. It was an argument

01:13:00.780 every single day about free will and an argument every single day. And it wasn't just because I

01:13:05.060 was a caged Calvinist and arrogant. Part of it is just the practical relational context of coming

01:13:09.740 out of one view where you've been surrounded with all those friends into another view.

01:13:13.520 But then the point is you, you come into this new view and if you stick with it and you

01:13:17.700 go down that path, yes, you're growing.

01:13:19.440 Yes, you're learning.

01:13:20.000 But one thing that you're losing is, um, opposition.

01:13:25.000 And, and so it is helpful.

01:13:26.920 I think ministries like yours, uh, I think people need discernment and I think you guys

01:13:31.140 help as kind of, you know, like, like, like bowling with, um, with bumpers, you know,

01:13:35.880 keeping people from falling into like just straight up heretical gutter.

01:13:39.120 But so you guys help in the way that you host your show, protecting your listeners from just completely unorthodox views.

01:13:46.960 But I think the listener still needs to exercise a lot of biblical discernment.

01:13:50.660 But one of the benefits is that there could be some confusion.

01:13:55.000 To know for sure what orthodoxy is.

01:13:57.480 Yeah, yeah.

01:13:58.340 Yeah, exactly.

01:13:59.000 But one of the benefits, my point is to say one of the benefits is that a lot of times we don't spar and we get flabby and we get soft.

01:14:09.260 And that's been helpful for me.

01:14:11.340 So anyways, thanks, you guys, for coming on the show.

01:14:13.840 I appreciate it.

01:14:14.880 God bless you.

01:14:15.400 It's always an honor.

01:14:15.960 I enjoyed being on, man.

01:14:17.540 Yeah, thanks for having us.

01:14:18.820 We appreciate what you're doing.

01:14:20.520 As a special thank you for your gift of any amount, we'll be happy to send you a free digital book from our store.

01:14:25.900 To access this offer, visit rightresponseministries.com slash offer.

01:14:31.120 We highly recommend Pastor Joel's book, Am I Truly Saved?

01:14:34.800 If you or someone you know has wrestled with doubts about the love of God,

01:14:38.600 this would be a great resource.

01:14:40.580 As a reminder, to get this offer, go to rightresponseministries.com slash offer.

01:14:45.280 And thank you for your generous support.

The NXR Podcast - September 01, 2021

THEOLOGY APPLIED - Who Are The Nephilim？

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