00:05:03.100So Catherine Briggs and her daughter, Isabel Briggs Myers, studied, they were both homeschooled, so they didn't study this at any university. I'm a big fan of homeschooling, by the way, but it's relevant to this story.
00:05:16.920they read Carl Jung books and they decided because Isabel was going to marry a man that Catherine
00:05:24.440didn't really relate to so they were going to study her son future son-in-law's personality
00:05:29.520by coming up with this personality test of extrovert introvert egalitarian etc these four
00:05:36.700personality continuums that Jung had identified and that's how the Myers-Briggs was created through
00:05:42.640the inspiration of trans-channeling. And it's not a psychological test. I can tell you that
00:05:49.600at Chapman University, through my BA and MA, we did not even mention the Myers-Briggs or even look
00:05:55.120at it because it's not a valid scientific instrument at all. And then the Enneagram,
00:06:00.900just like Myers-Briggs, was born out of trans-channeling. And so the innovator of the
00:06:07.320nine personality types of the Enneagram. His name is Claudio Naranjo, and you've got a clip of him
00:06:12.720admitting this publicly, that he got the inspiration for these nine personality types
00:06:18.980through the process of automatic writing. Now, automatic writing, now this is something that I
00:06:24.680can attest to as a former New Ager. I was the top-selling New Age author before I was saved.
00:06:31.220Praise Jesus for saving me out of that deception. But what I was doing, Pastor Joel, at the time I
00:06:36.620was a new age author is I was using automatic writing, like Claudia Nerano, the innovator of
00:06:43.780the Enneagram, and like Carl Jung, I would sit there and I would pray, but who was I praying to?
00:06:50.440I don't know at this point. And I would, I would ask for messages to come through my pen or my
00:06:56.080typewriter, my laptop, and I would kind of just go into a trance where I wasn't really aware what
00:07:03.240was coming through. And then lo and behold, there would be coherent messages on my paper or on my
00:07:10.760laptop document. And so that's, and I repent for those products. And there's some of them still
00:07:17.900for sale, which I'm always telling people, do not buy, destroy them. They're going out of print,
00:07:22.660praise God. I'm here to attest that those automatic writing books that I was involved
00:07:28.600with, I thought they were from angels. They're from demons. And that's how the Myers-Briggs
00:07:33.580and the Enneagram were born. These are doctrines of demons. And the Bible's very, very clear.
00:07:39.560I know we're going to get into this more, that we are not to be a part of any ungodly counsel.
00:07:45.320The advice that the Myers-Briggs and the Enneagram seems to be helpful. And that's where people go
00:07:51.120with new age methods and new age teachings is they always focus on, oh, this is helpful. It
00:07:57.540makes me feel good. It makes me understand myself. It seems to help me understand my husband and our
00:08:02.900marriage is better. But beware, a little leaven can contaminate the dough as we've been warned
00:08:10.640in Galatians and Jesus warned us. And we see in Genesis 3 that the serpent said, oh, this fruit
00:08:17.380will taste good. It will give you secret wisdom and you'll be like God. That's the same mixture
00:08:22.440of truth and lies that we see with the Enneagram, with the Myers-Briggs, and any New Age method.
00:08:28.200It may make you feel good, but it's ungodly, and it should be marked and avoided.
00:08:34.720Amen. I agree. As you were talking about automatic writing and just kind of describing,
00:08:40.740defining that practice for us, this basically just seeking to empty the mind of all cognitive
00:08:47.240thought of all rationale and becoming aware of nothing but awareness itself and then hoping that
00:08:54.460from this kind of transcendental stasis that you would somehow begin to channel some kind of content,
00:09:02.360some kind of writing and communication. It reminded me, and maybe in the future we could
00:09:07.280do an episode on this because I know you've spoken to this particular topic at great length as well
00:09:12.380on your YouTube channel and with your ministry,
00:09:15.360but it just reminded me of the similarities
00:09:17.700between the Enneagram and Myers-Briggs
00:09:24.980but also with centered prayer or the idea of contemplative prayer,
00:09:35.060this idea that Christians don't recognize,
00:09:37.700but it's distinctly in opposition to Christianity.
00:09:42.380Nowhere in Christian thought do we have this idea of emptying the mind. So to try to make that a virtue, and I think I'm concerned as a pastor that it has been made a virtue in the mind of many Christians, that many people would say that's a key component of my quiet time, of my devotions, that I just want to listen to the Lord.
00:10:07.140And I understand that the language sounds right.
00:10:10.740And I think the motive in many cases, the motive is noble, but it's the wrong practice.
00:10:16.940It's the wrong method that I want a word from the Lord.
00:10:21.480And so I'm, you know, and the verse that always gets quoted is be still and know that I am God.
00:10:28.280But this stillness, I mean, the very next phrase, be still and know.
00:10:33.580You know, no, it's informative. It's knowledge. To be still is to not rely upon ourselves. It's to rid ourselves not of cognitive thought, not of rationale or logic or substance, but rather to rid ourselves of self-reliance, of self-dependence, independence, our own resting in our own strength, our own ability.
00:11:01.080And so I'm always reminded of Psalm chapter one, where it talks about the man who delights, the blessed man who delights in the law of God and on God's law, he meditates day and night.
00:11:13.360And so meditation, there is a biblical category for Christian meditation, but it's directly in opposition to pagan meditation, meaning that Christian meditation, meditating on God's law, it's actually the opposite of emptying the mind.
00:11:29.900But it's rather to fill the mind, or we could even say to feast or focus the mind on the content, the substance of God's word, God's law in the case of Psalm chapter one, that we're looking at the law of God, we're delighting in it, we're meditating on it, meaning we are thinking deeply and we are thinking faithfully, biblically upon the word of God, the law of God, the precepts and truths and doctrines of God.
00:11:59.340And so I'm always wary when Christians incorporate into their private devotional practices this method of emptying the mind of cognitive thought, emptying the mind of substance, of all substance, which would include the written word of God, in order to somehow have this transcendental experience with God.
00:12:21.200And I always just want to kind of shake Christians by the shoulders a little bit and just say, you want a word from God?
00:12:30.700You don't have to get still and quiet and thoughtless to have some kind of mystical interpersonal experience.
00:12:38.720You can just crack open the Bible and you've got thousands of words from God that you can begin reading.
00:12:45.120You don't have to question their validity or accuracy.
00:12:48.680that's the beauty I think of Christianity is it's substance based it gives us something to
00:12:54.840to hold on to it's it's not subjective it's not mystical it's not it's it's not transcendental it
00:13:02.120is it is ontological it is it is based on fact and truth it's historical a man really did come
00:13:11.200to earth and and live a life and I mean there's there's more historical validity to the existence
00:13:17.480of jesus of nazareth than caesar of rome we don't have to there's there's something to hold on to
00:13:23.940it's it's it's objective and and i think that's the beauty of christianity and and i i am along
00:13:30.740with you doreen concerned that so many christians um makes make little make light of of one of the
00:13:38.180the greatest strengths of the christian faith that it is fact-based it is substantive it is
00:13:45.120objective, it is thoughtful, and that they want to abandon that thought. And I think part of it
00:13:51.260comes from this rising aversion in our society and in church culture even towards theology,
00:13:58.800towards doctrine. I think people are intimidated by doctrine, intimidated by theology. And so
00:14:04.000they somehow want to demonize thoughtfulness. They want to demonize intellectualism. They want
00:14:10.920to demonize facts and, and say, well, that may be good for you, but I have this other thing over
00:14:16.520here. But, but it's, it's empty, it's anemic, and, and it just creates, and I think you'll agree with
00:14:22.380this, but what it does is it just creates this, this opportunity, a target, an opening, right?
00:14:29.780It kind of leaves a foothold for the devil to come in and, and, and begin to influence. Would
00:14:35.620you agree with that? Can you elaborate maybe some more? Yeah, I just want to say big capital
00:14:40.100amen to everything you said. I think more Christians today are getting their so-called
00:14:45.460theology from the Jesus Calling books than they are from the Bible. In Jesus Calling, there's
00:14:51.040another so-called Christian product that is from automatic writing. A woman named Sarah Young was
00:14:57.100highly influenced by an occult series called God Calling, which those authors openly admitted that
00:15:03.540they were automatic writing some voice that they said was God, but clearly wasn't because God's the
00:15:09.000same yesterday, today, and forever. And that God contradicted the Bible. So Sarah Young,
00:15:13.880saying that she wanted more than the Bible, which the Bible is sufficient, went outside the Bible
00:15:19.360to channel a voice that is identifying itself as Jesus. And it is one of the top bestsellers
00:15:25.440in Christianity right now. And it's not Christian, because it contradicts the Bible. And it has
00:15:31.280this portrait of the false Jesus that we are warned about by Jesus himself, that this false
00:15:37.480Jesus in Jesus Calling says that God loves everyone, and God is love. Of course, the
00:15:45.200apostle John said that. And there is some truth that he loves his creations, but not everyone's
00:15:49.920a child of God. If someone wants to know their identity, they don't need to turn to false gospel
00:15:56.360personality tests. They need to turn to the Bible, as you said, Pastor Joel. There they will find who
00:16:01.340they are. If they're a saved believer, they are a child of God. They're adopted into God's family.
00:16:07.620What great news is that? That's better than any Enneagram number. That's better than any
00:16:12.260horoscope name. That's better than anything you could find with the Myers-Briggs. To know that
00:16:17.200you're adopted into God's family, that's the best news ever, especially since we were saved while
00:16:22.640we were still dead in sin. Amen. Well, before we continue, I have a few more questions for you,
00:16:28.680But because both Doreen and I want to be above reproach and we take the qualifications in scripture for Christians seriously, we don't want to open up ourselves to the charge of slander.
00:16:42.180So we want to validate the claims that have been made so far in this episode.
00:16:47.400So it's only about two minutes long, but I want to play a quick clip from, remind me the name of the person.
00:16:56.860Yeah, this is Claudia Naranjo, who talks about how the Enneagram was created through the process of automatic writing.
00:17:05.600Great. I didn't even want to attempt the pronunciation on that name.
00:17:09.020So let's go ahead and play that clip to validate automatic writing.
00:17:13.340It's really a confession from the author of the Enneagram that will validate the claims we've made so far.
00:17:20.280So at the conference I told them I had made up this tale that all this came from millennia ago and the disinformation came from the Sufis.
00:17:32.000I told him that actually Oscar Richardson had not described any of the Enneatypes either.
00:17:38.800Actually in the seven months we spent with him, he devoted about six hours to talk about the Enneagram, but he never came to describe any one of the types.
00:17:49.200That was in Eureka. In Eureka, Chile. In Eureka, Chile, yeah. So that came from my own observations, but mostly from automatic writing. Automatic writing? Yeah, it came to me through automatic writing. What did? The specific information about any types, which I then verified through observation, because I was surrounded by people I was teaching and exploring with.
00:18:13.400And I had friends in Eureka who told me essentially the same story, that there was no mention of, no others besides, there was no mention of anyotypes except from you.
00:18:53.040It is a very modern invention that ultimately came out of one individual practicing this kind of mystical transdental stasis and channeling thoughts that have no basis really in scripture.
00:19:14.060Yes. And in addition to him admitting openly that he used this occultic dangerous practice to get the Enneagram information, they also admit in this clip that you just played, that they're using it for marketing purposes, they're using it to fool people, and they're, they're just blatant about their, their children of the father of lies.
00:19:35.940I mean, it's just really clear in this. And just like I was saying with Sarah Young, she doesn't see that she's deceived and she's passing along the deception. There is so much that is contradictory of the Bible and Jesus calling.
00:19:49.340there's there's and then she'll put a little scripture name she'll put like Galatians 5 9
00:19:55.920at the bottom of the page so that people who don't read the Bible will feel safe but it's not safe
00:20:01.460the Enneagram has been popularized into churches recently by a man named Richard Rohr who's good
00:20:07.840friends with Oprah Winfrey and he has openly talked it's all over YouTube you can type in
00:20:14.040Richard Rohr, and you can see clips of him saying that Jesus is the same as Buddha, and that
00:20:21.420Christianity could learn a lot from Buddhism, and that the Jesus he knows, he wrote a book about a
00:20:27.920Jesus that is different than the biblical Jesus, and that this Jesus is much more loving. That's
00:20:33.560the false Jesus that I used to follow before I was saved. That Jesus is like this laid-back hippie
00:20:40.200that says you can do whatever you want as long as you're happy. Follow your bliss, like Joseph
00:20:44.520Campbell said. That's the false Jesus that Richard Rohr, he's some sort of, some monk. I don't know
00:20:54.740his exact denomination background, but he wrote a book that helped to usher in so-called Christian
00:21:03.280books that were published by some otherwise Christian publishers, you know, like IVP is
00:21:09.700published a lot, The Road Back to You, which should give Christians pause. Because one of
00:21:15.860the big issues with the Enneagram is that it's about self-glory. And we know if we read the
00:21:22.360Bible that our purpose is to glorify God and to delight in him. Our purpose is not to glorify
00:21:28.740ourselves. We were doing that before we were saved. We were all about me, me, me. And that's
00:21:33.460what you see the false teachers giving these sermons that are all about eisegesis, that are
00:21:39.780all about me-centered theology. And the Enneagram just has you completely focus on yourself,
00:21:47.360which has you away from focusing on Jesus and the true gospel.
00:21:52.640Amen. I completely agree. So that kind of really sets us up for exactly where I wanted to go next.
00:21:58.740The question that I have written is this. What do you think about Christians taking personality tests in general? Is self-assessment really that accurate? The idea of, I don't really, to me, I always find it ironic. I'm going to take a personality test, so I'll just go ahead and show my hand real quick.
00:22:16.140So I'm going to take a personality test for what purpose, right?
00:22:26.200So the guy who doesn't know enough about himself to know who he is is now going to assess himself to tell himself who he is.
00:22:34.740And so I just, even the basic principle of I'm lacking self-assessment, so I'm going to gain self-assessment by self-assessment seems to be a little bit counterproductive to me.
00:22:47.080So, however, I think that there can be some benefits, perhaps, but I just wanted to throw it to you.
00:22:53.500What do you think about Christians taking personality tests in general, and is self-assessment really that accurate, and what balance should we strike?
00:23:02.040Because certainly there's a certain point where we can be so introspective and so navel-gazing, so self-focused that it's really man-centered.
00:23:13.940It's not seeking, as you just said earlier, to glorify God, but rather to glorify ourselves.
00:23:19.060What are some of your thoughts on that?
00:23:21.000Well, you know, we first should be really honest with ourselves and with God.
00:24:15.620And it's not accurate to identify yourself that way.
00:24:19.140It's just there's nothing of value in Enneagram test except for a value to the devil.
00:24:25.680And he's winning because he's got he's successfully got people to waste their time once again,
00:24:31.340when they could be using that time to study God's word and to glorify him.
00:24:37.060I love what you said earlier about meditating.
00:24:40.080A lot of people who have not read the Bible get very confused and they they write me nasty
00:24:45.500letters saying, well, the Bible tells us to meditate, and that's why they justify doing
00:24:49.940contemplative prayer, mindfulness, Lectia Divina, all these New Age, so mystical, they're just
00:24:57.800mystical practices. Carl Jung, who was the basis of the Myers-Briggs test, famously told people
00:25:05.260that the way to know God was through experiences. I used to say the same thing when I was a New Age
00:25:10.460teacher. So I understand where Carl Jung as an unsaved, spiritually blind person would think
00:25:15.800that because that's what I used to think. That's a secular worldview. It is not a biblical worldview
00:25:20.940at all. The way to know God is to read and study his word. As you said, he's given us thousands of
00:25:26.360word. And we must read the whole Bible. I know it's, it sounds intimidating. And there's parts
00:25:32.580of the Bible that are super challenging. But that's why you have Pastor Joel and Right Response
00:25:37.100ministries, and you have commentaries, like all these books that I turn to, that help you to
00:25:43.240unpack what's being said in the Bible. It will tell you who God is, why you're here, why there's
00:25:50.680suffering in the world, why there's evil in the world, all those questions that we all have,
00:25:55.060you know, what happens after death, it's all answered in the Bible. That's why it's sufficient.
00:25:59.500We don't need anything else. So in terms of should personality tests be taken by Christians,
00:26:04.100There's no reason for it. And I would say, from my background, don't do it. It's too much temptation. It's like, like I said, a little leaven. It's ungodly counsel. It is taking false advice, which the Bible warns us about, that we are not to partake of worldly wisdom. Check out 1 Corinthians 3, 18 through 20.
00:26:28.120people also argue pastor joel that the enneagram even though it has occultic roots can be redeemed
00:26:34.940just like the meat was redeemed i think it's first corinthians 8 but check out that chapter
00:26:40.800and you'll see that it's really about redeeming people not objects and it is it is really focused
00:26:48.760on not causing someone to stumble and i'm here to argue that taking the enneagram and then later
00:26:54.220boasting about it will cause a new weak believer to stumble because then they'll get mixed up in
00:27:00.980it and it could leave them away from it. A lot of great thoughts. Yeah. The only tests I would
00:27:07.180recommend is the MMPI, the Minnesota Multiphase Act Personality Inventory, because that was done
00:27:13.940scientifically with a built-in lie detector. So it asks the same question four different ways,
00:27:21.380so you can't cross up. And that actually is a detector if you've done things like you have
00:27:26.940dissociative disorder or hallucinating or things like that. So the MMPI would be the only truly
00:27:33.240valid psychological test. But even then, I would use caution with that because it's a secular test
00:27:41.860that should be administered by someone who's very knowledgeable with it. It's not to be used
00:27:45.920lightly. It's not to be used in a church setting, but that would be the only test I would say could
00:27:52.620be valid for Christians. Gotcha. That's really helpful. Just to add to that, I think part of what
00:27:58.880I would say is both Doreen and I, just for the record, maybe as a helpful disclaimer, we both,
00:28:05.240as Bible-believing Christians, do believe in spiritual gifts. Now, correct me if I'm wrong,
00:28:10.540Doreen, but I think we would both be in the position of being a cessationist, but that
00:28:15.020doesn't mean that we believe all spiritual gifts have ceased. And so, although we do think that
00:28:19.400there are some gifts that were reserved in the beginning of the New Testament age, that apostolic
00:28:26.760age, such as the gift of tongues or the gift of prophecy, we certainly still believe that the
00:28:32.540Holy Spirit sovereignly gives gifts to individual believers for building up the body of Christ and
00:28:38.700bringing glory to God, such as teaching. You know, we believe that the gift of teaching is a spiritual
00:28:43.800gift, and we believe that the gift of teaching is something that still operates among Christians,
00:28:49.340among believers in the church today, and so we do believe that individuals have been given
00:28:54.500sovereignly by God spiritual gifts, gifts of help, administration, service, generosity, teaching,
00:29:01.460all these things are gifts still operating in the church today, and it is important for Christians
00:29:06.920to become aware of the individual spiritual gifts that they possess by sovereign decree of the Holy
00:29:15.840Spirit so that they might, well, so that they might work to staff their weaknesses and yet at
00:29:21.620the same time that they might work to play to their strengths for the service, for the upbuilding of
00:29:26.080the body of Christ as a whole. They need to be aware, I need to be aware of what it is that the
00:29:31.040Lord has gifted me in so that I can devote energy and time and effort in that vein so that I might
00:29:38.640be as fruitful as possible for the good of the church and the glory of God. And I think all that
00:29:45.480Doreen and I am saying is that that principle exists, that people have distinctions, that God
00:29:51.300doesn't make everybody exactly the same. So there are differences, not only between men and women,
00:29:57.260but also between individual men and individual women in the church.
00:30:02.260But this idea that you would be the most qualified individual to assess you
00:30:10.900seems to be a little bit, well, just kind of an oxymoron.
00:30:16.420And so what we believe is that in the church,
00:30:19.400one of the ways that God helps individuals identify their spiritual gifts
00:30:24.380so that they might have more direction
00:30:27.240in how to serve the body of Christ at large,
00:30:53.800Because I have my little certificate that I printed off from online, you know, that proves it. I think in some ways, the self-assessing personality test, spiritual gift test phenomenon, I think in some way, it's a quest for validation and significance.
00:31:12.060I think it's a quest for people who, all of us, myself included, so I'm not above this, but I think all of us, we all wrestle with feelings of insignificance.
00:31:23.340We all wrestle with feelings of lacking worthiness and those kinds of things, lacking worth.
00:31:31.560And so I think it's a quest to find worth and significance, but misdirected, that we're going about it the wrong way.
00:31:42.880First and foremost, we find worth in the gospel of Jesus Christ.
00:31:46.620God didn't send his son to the world because we were lovely.
00:31:50.200He sent his son to the world in order to make us lovely.
00:31:54.200And so first, we have no worth outside of Jesus Christ.
00:31:57.460Yes, there's a sense in which we are image-bearing creatures, and there's value in that as simply image-bearing creatures of a living God, and so there's value in that, but ultimately we have taken the image of God, it's been tarnished, it's been twisted because of original sin and our personal rebellion towards God.
00:32:19.560And so ultimately, it's not until God redeems us by his grace and begins to sanctify us that we really gain true, ultimate, eternal value in the sight of God, where it really counts.
00:32:33.560And so first, if you're lacking self-worth, if you're lacking a feeling of significance and those kinds of things, first, look to the gospel of Jesus Christ.
00:32:47.920Secondly, if you're looking for not so much that ultimate self-worth, but you're looking simply to identify your strengths and gifts so that you might be a further blessing to the body of Christ in your local church, co-discern those things with those who are mature.
00:33:07.440And yes, there is a biblical principle for having sober judgment about yourself, right?
00:33:13.100You shouldn't think of yourself more highly than you ought.
00:33:15.360You also shouldn't think of yourself more lowly than you ought.
00:33:17.700But each person should view themselves with sober judgment.
00:33:20.380You can make a case that from that scripture, that is self-assessment, viewing yourself
00:33:35.480I think that the verse, all the verse is saying is that we should arrive. It's speaking to the destination, not the journey, not the process of getting there. But the conclusion is that we should all have a proper, sober view of ourselves.
00:33:48.760The verse does not say really anything about how we arrive at that proper view other than exemplifying humility.
00:33:56.280And I think part of humility is subjecting ourselves to not just subjecting ourselves to ourselves,
00:34:03.720but subjecting ourselves to fellow brothers and sisters in Christ, allowing them to speak into our lives,
00:34:09.240giving them a view, letting them see ourselves, not just showing up at a local church and saying,
00:34:14.700this is my spiritual gift. I'm gifted to teach. I assume that I'll be preaching next Sunday. No,
00:34:21.140why don't you just get there and serve and be faithful and be humble and allow God to exalt
00:34:27.860the humble, right? He humiliates the proud, but he exalts in his proper time those who are humble,
00:34:34.880and he'll use others, not just you, but others in the church to confirm and to help identify and
00:34:44.100say, yeah, you know what? I really think that so-and-so is gifted in this and we should provide
00:34:48.520an opportunity. The Bible says a man's gifts make room for him. So you just get on the ground and
00:34:54.660start serving and commit your calling, commit your gifting, commit your future to the Lord
00:35:05.980and allow him in his providence and in his sovereignty to speak to others, to help them discern,
00:35:15.800help them recognize and identify those gifts and provide whatever platform the Lord has ordained
00:35:21.940for you to have in his proper timing. So both Doreen and I, we believe in spiritual gifts.
00:35:27.940We believe it's important to have sober judgment, to have an accurate self-assessment.
00:35:33.160but what we're contesting is the process on how we get there how we identify those spiritual gifts
00:35:40.480and how we come to a sober judgment of ourselves and i think one of the biggest things that we
00:35:44.940would say is we've already said is is the word is the the word of god is the final arbiter
00:35:50.920on those things but it's also the word of god interpreted and and and applied to you by the
00:35:58.360body of Christ as a whole, not just individuals in isolation taking a test with the presupposition.
00:36:06.460That's the irony. You're going into this with the presupposition of what you want to be.
00:36:11.060You think that's not going to influence how you take that test, right? It's like, I've always
00:36:15.020wanted to be da-da-da-da-da-da. Well, sure enough, my test results came back exactly how I hoped they
00:36:22.880would well that's because you took the test you know it's just it's a bit dishonest i and i think
00:36:28.300really a bit a bit naive and i think christians just we have to be more discerning um in regards
00:36:34.340to those things and one of the things we need to be discerning of is is our own hearts which the
00:36:39.180bible says is deceitful above all else it's so easy for us to deceive ourselves and so why why
00:36:46.480not welcome others into the equation so that we're not tempted by self-deception or self-flattery or
00:36:53.840self-focus? Would you agree with those things, Doreen? Oh, completely. Yes. I am a cessationist
00:37:01.240in terms of the apostolic gifts are not needed after today. Hebrews 1, Peter the apostle makes
00:37:06.640that very clear, but the gifts of administration are still here like teaching and mercy,
00:37:11.860but they're not assessed by a spiritual gifts test. One of the things that you mentioned that
00:37:18.100I wanted to highlight is that these tests lead to pridefulness. And we all know that the Bible says
00:37:24.500that pride leads to a fall. And we want to be very careful because, as you said,
00:37:31.620we'll be humbled in very painful ways if we go into pridefulness. And yet that's what we see.
00:37:36.540I remember going to one Christian conference, Pastor Joel, where people were bragging,
00:37:41.680including the main speaker about what number they were from the Enneagram test. And they were saying,
00:37:47.540well, I'm an eight. I'm an eight. Me too. I'm an eight too. Oh, I hate ones. I hate twos.
00:37:52.300And it's gobbledygook. I mean, nobody would do that at a Christian conference about their
00:37:57.240astrological sign. You would never hear them say, oh, I'm a Sagittarius. Oh, really? Me too. I hate
00:38:02.300Tauruses. Nobody would do that. But that's exactly what they're doing with the Enneagram numbers.
00:38:07.840I recently interviewed a woman named Jill Lancour, who's a pastor's wife. And she said that when she
00:38:14.020was in the Enneagram, into it, and she had been deceived, she ran Enneagram classes at her
00:38:20.220husband's church. And she now has repented because she was more focused on her Enneagram number
00:38:26.740and boasting about it than she was focused on the gospel or boasting about Jesus and what he's done
00:38:32.280for us. And so there's, it's real subtle. In fact, the newest thing is that there's Christians who
00:38:38.500are calling their little sect of Enneagram study, gospel Enneagram, and Christian Enneagram,
00:38:46.040which should be a red flag. You know, it reminds me of some of the yoga instructors calling it
00:38:51.220holy yoga, just because they stick scripture in front of this worship of Hindu deities through
00:38:56.900poses. It doesn't work that way. You can't just put the name gospel in front of Enneagram and
00:39:02.980redeem it. It's an unredeemable practice. And the Bible is very clear that we are not to
00:39:09.260go to man-made ideologies. As you mentioned earlier, it doesn't matter if it's ancient.
00:39:15.380The geometric shape, which to me reminds me of a pentagram or an astrological wheel,
00:39:22.020that that shape is ancient but the the nine enneotypes which we listened to in that clip
00:39:27.760you just played are very recent and they were originally hailed as something in the new age
00:39:33.560community uh they were taught at esalon which is a new age uh kind of commune facility in northern
00:39:39.720california and it was only in the new age community until richard roar popularized it he's a he's a
00:39:46.120new ager who claims to be christian or catholic and and people listen to him because they're not
00:39:51.940comparing things to the Bible. Why? Because the studies show, like the Pew Research and the
00:39:57.220Ligonier studies show that only about 5% of Christians have read the whole Bible. I mean,
00:40:03.220it's just, that's the guardrails we need. It's not legalism, because legalism is saying that
00:40:09.500your actions save you. That's heresy. Only Jesus's actions saved us on the cross. We're
00:40:17.360saved through God's mercy and grace through our faith in Jesus. But once we're saved, we want to
00:40:24.020obey God. And Jesus even said in John 14, 15, if you love me, you'll obey my commandments. And one
00:40:30.740of the commandments that he highlighted is to love God with all your heart and your mind and your
00:40:35.120soul. To love God means to obey him. It means to trust him. If you're not trusting God, you're going
00:40:40.620to go outside of God to astrology, to a Ouija board, or to Enneagram, which are all the same.
00:40:48.040You're right. I just want to highlight one of the last things you said there that I was hoping we would get to, and I think it's a great way maybe to conclude our episode, but the greatest commandment for any Christian who might still be kind of pushing back at this point, they're watching and they're saying, well, the automatic writing or centered prayer, you know, or contemplative prayer, this idea, you know, it sounds like you're just making this case that, you know, unless I care about theology, I'm a second rate Christian, you know,
00:41:16.320Or, you know, you're making me feel like because I'm not intellectual, then I'm less.
00:41:57.340It's to love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength.
00:42:03.120But also, he says, with all your mind.
00:42:05.780with all your mind. And so genuine Christian love for God, it is a thoughtful, a thinking,
00:42:17.060a reading, a studying love. It is. Is it heartfelt? Is it filled with zeal and passion?
00:42:27.520you bet you it's a heart love but it's also a mind love uh it's and and i think christians look at
00:42:35.920that and and i used to do this um christians will look at that the greatest commandment love the
00:42:42.860lord your god with all your heart your mind your soul your strength and and what they'll do is
00:42:46.880they'll kind of divide it up into three or four sections and they'll say i'm i'm called and the
00:42:53.440way that God's gifted me the way that he created me I'm one of those individuals who's loving God
00:42:58.460with all my heart and there are some who are loving God with all their mind and they basically
00:43:03.880I guess what I'm saying is they they they fracture the commandment they they they divorce it they
00:43:10.780divide it they break it up into as though it were three different commandments or four different
00:43:16.200commandments and and as though uh as though it's optional not not the whole thing but you know
00:43:21.940everybody has to pick one. You got to do one. You got to love God. But here are three different
00:43:27.000options of how to love God. And all you have to do in order to be faithful to obey this commandment
00:43:32.360is select one of them and really devote yourself to that. That is a horrible exegesis of the
00:43:38.540greatest commandment. Each of us is called to love God with everything. If I was to exegete
00:43:44.260that commandment as simple as possible, I'd say the commandment is to love God with all that we
00:43:50.540have. And Christian, you may have never thought of yourself or identified as an intellectual.
00:43:58.780You may have never felt like you were particularly intelligent or gifted when it comes to study,
00:44:06.900but God gave you a mind. You're not a thoughtless, brainless person. God did not just give you a
00:44:14.560heart. He didn't just give you emotions and zeal. He didn't just give you strength and a body to
00:44:20.520walk out the faith in action. He didn't just give you an eternal soul, but he also gave you
00:44:27.480a mind. And to the best of your ability, with what God gave you, use it. Just like the parable
00:44:33.620of Jesus with the three servants, and they each are given different degrees, different measurements
00:44:38.260of talents. One has five, and one has two, and one has one. You may feel like I just have one talent
00:44:44.700in the mind category. Well, put it to work. Don't bury it in the sand out of insecurity or fear.
00:44:53.720Put your mind to work, and I bet you that you will be surprised by how much you really can grasp
00:45:05.780in deep ways the truths of God if you apply yourself. I've talked to so many Christians who
00:45:11.000who they were never before being converted they were never um they weren't bookworms they weren't
00:45:16.920nerds they weren't you know that's just not who they were they were always into sports or things
00:45:21.940maybe more physical or less mental um or maybe more artistic than they were you know studious
00:45:28.040but but but god so changed their heart they they became so zealous and so interested so desirous
00:45:35.680of the things of God, they were like, well, yeah, I've never really been much of a studious person,
00:45:41.380but I want to know God. And all of a sudden, this person who was, you know, if you look at
00:45:47.120their childhood, they were a lot more interested in PE, you know, than they were math or, you know,
00:45:52.200arithmetic or English. And now all of a sudden, I've talked to people who, before being converted,
00:45:58.060they only read two or three books all the way through in their entire life. And now they just,
00:46:02.600they're a ferocious reader and it turns out they actually were a lot more intelligent than they
00:46:07.520gave themselves credit for they just didn't have something that interested them but if you're a
00:46:13.620christian guess what you have something that you should find very very interesting namely someone
00:46:20.300the triune god and he wrote a book for us and uh and and we are called to love him christians
00:46:28.900do not have the prerogative to opt out of loving God with their mind, I guess is the short way to
00:46:37.840say. Any final thoughts, Dori? Yeah, I love everything you said. I completely agree with
00:46:43.100you, Pastor Joel. Thank you so much. My final thought is that when people take the Enneagram,
00:46:49.280a lot of times it's because they want to know about their relationships. That's their stated
00:46:54.840goal. They want to know about their marriage. But the most important relationship is with our
00:47:00.100triune God. And if we're in a relationship with God, you want to know everything about your
00:47:06.240beloved. So the way to know about our triune God is to read his word. And that is to study the Bible
00:47:12.840every day. I know everyone's busy and distracted. I'm busy, I get distracted. For me, it's word
00:47:19.700before world. It's just before I allow myself to do anything else. I'm in the seat with the Bible.
00:47:25.600I go through a book at a time. I just started Proverbs again. And every time you read it,
00:47:31.420the Holy Spirit will illuminate something new for you that you learn about our triune God
00:47:35.480and really about yourself too. You're right. Absolutely right. Well, in each of our episodes,
00:47:42.900What we do is we conclude the episode, and then we also just kind of, before completely cutting off the episode, we kind of give for our listeners our bonus question, and we have each of our guests stay on for another five to ten minutes to answer the bonus question.
00:48:01.460So our bonus question today is this, what can you tell us about the concept of soul ties, the concept of soul ties, this idea of, you know, that somebody has been physically, you know, intimate with someone and now they're bound to them in some eternal or lifelong way.
00:48:20.140So what can you tell us about the concept of soul ties and is this concept actually biblical?
00:48:25.700So we're going to come on in our bonus hours edition for our responders.
00:48:30.660If you're not a club member, we call them our responders.
00:48:33.420We encourage you to take a moment and go ahead and subscribe.