The NXR Podcast - THEOLOGY APPLIED - Women’s Ministry Done Properly ｜ Patriarchy Vs. Complementarianism w Rachel Jankovic

00:00:00.000 Join Douglas Wilson, Dr. Joseph Boot, Brian Sauve, Eric Kahn, and myself on March 1st,

00:00:12.080 2nd, and 3rd for our 2024 conference. It's called Blueprints for Christendom 2.0.

00:00:18.920 Go and visit rightresponseconference.com to register today. We hope to see you at the

00:00:24.780 conference in March.

00:00:30.000 women's ministry, biblical patriarchy, or complementarianism. In today's episode of

00:00:38.380 Theology Applied, I'm welcoming to the show Rachel Jankovic. She's the daughter of Douglas Wilson

00:00:43.020 in Moscow, Idaho at Christ Church. We talk about women's ministry in very practical terms.

00:00:50.100 What does Rachel and her sister Becca and Nancy Wilson, what do the gals do at Christ Church in

00:00:56.140 Moscow, Idaho, in practical terms, for women's ministry. They hold to the biblical patriarchy 0.97

00:01:01.560 view. So what does that look like in practice? Tune in now.

00:01:06.220 Applying God's word to every aspect of life. This is Theology Applied.

00:01:16.120 All right. Welcome back to another episode of Theology Applied. I'm your host, Pastor Joel

00:01:19.980 Webin with Right Response Ministries. And in this episode, I'm very privileged to welcome back to

00:01:25.300 the show. I think it's been probably about two years since the last time we had this guest,

00:01:30.300 but we have Rachel Jankovic back on the show. Rachel, thanks for coming.

00:01:35.120 Thanks for having me.

00:01:36.200 Absolutely. Well, we talked a little bit offline before we started recording and kind of framing

00:01:40.420 up some ideas for the show this evening. But basically what I'd love to talk about with you

00:01:45.800 is that my wife is a big fan. She said, make sure to give me a shout out to Rachel. Let her know. 0.94

00:01:51.940 So my wife, Megan, she, she loves, you know, she, we got to come to one of your Sabbath

00:01:56.660 dinners a couple of years ago and she's followed your ministry intensely and your mom and your

00:02:00.940 sister, and she's benefited so much and not just her, but multiple women in our church.

00:02:05.860 And one of the things that I really like as a husband with my wife following your ministry

00:02:10.620 is that your ministry is always practically geared towards women.

00:02:14.880 And it's not just like, you can do an episode of 45 minutes talking about a theology of

00:02:19.280 sourdough.

00:02:19.860 God bless you.

00:02:20.440 That's great.

00:02:20.860 but you also it's not just a theology of sourdough it's a theology of the whole scripture but then

00:02:27.460 applied to the particular domestic feminine role of a wife a mother those kinds of things and and

00:02:34.040 i've noticed that in the reformed world even in the complementarian card-carrying world there are 0.96

00:02:40.600 women who they god bless them they would not dare you know a teacher exercise authority in a in a 1.00

00:02:46.080 public context over a man. So it's women's only context. But in that women's only context, 1.00

00:02:52.500 the actual content of the ministry doesn't necessarily have anything to do with women.

00:02:58.940 What are your thoughts about that? I would say, I think, okay, I think that the best example, 0.84

00:03:05.800 I have a friend who struggled for many years with just kind of crippling anxiety about things.

00:03:10.900 uh and she realized years into this that what she was doing was reciting bible verses about

00:03:19.140 worry to herself you know like she was reciting them but she realized that she was not obeying

00:03:25.000 them she was she was just saying to herself over and over you know do this or um you know cast your

00:03:33.440 cares on him or be anxious for nothing or she was she was saying be anxious for nothing but in

00:03:39.700 everything you know with prayer and supplication let your requests be made known to god but she

00:03:43.380 was not actually with prayer and supplication letting her requests be made known to god so

00:03:48.560 uh it was a sudden surprise of like it's actually different the the verse and and doing what it says

00:03:57.380 are different things and i think titus 2 is really a big one in this way which is uh it's often

00:04:05.060 quoted for women but it is often like a sentence that people like to diagram rather than do they

00:04:13.180 like to say these are the things that you know these are the seven mandates of titus two and

00:04:20.000 this is this and here's a chart of all the things and here's this but they would never want to be

00:04:25.580 caught talking shop about actual domestic work actually encouraging someone uh in something that

00:04:34.800 seems to them it's kind of i don't know what it is some kind of a hyper pious hangover from

00:04:40.020 somewhere that like the world is not spiritual right so if you were actually just talking about

00:04:45.700 pie crust you've somehow lost the plot and you're not being a real christian right now if you're if

00:04:52.220 you're getting into that i'm not honestly i'm not sure where all the influences come from in that

00:04:58.720 but for a large swath of the Christian world, actually acting like those women that Titus 2

00:05:05.340 talks about would be radically uncomfortable. Like that would be a really awkward thing. Whereas

00:05:12.440 affirming the verse, affirming it is, that's their comfort zone. Being like, yes, amen.

00:05:21.040 These are the, you know, these are the mandates. These are the statements. And I just think

00:05:25.400 this is it's not unique to women people everywhere are not obeying scripture they're just

00:05:31.040 saying it right um but it it stands out with women i think um it's it's something you can

00:05:39.180 really see probably because of feminism because of things that are happening culturally and the 1.00

00:05:43.680 general uh lack of respect for women's work sort of in the home it just is escalated by this in 1.00

00:05:51.200 the church. Yep. I'm, I'm actually a little bit surprised, pleasantly surprised that you, 1.00

00:05:57.200 you know, as you're referencing certain women that would take these seven mandates listed in Titus

00:06:02.400 chapter two and, you know, tip the hat, you know, give them a salute, but not practice them. They 1.00

00:06:07.900 would maybe teach them or outline them or do a word study, but, but wouldn't do them. That to

00:06:13.360 me is actually a little bit pleasantly surprising because that's a step beyond a lot of what I've

00:06:17.480 seen. A lot of what I've seen is that there are a lot of complementarian women that would not even

00:06:25.520 get to the seven mandates. They would stop at older women, trained younger women in that which 0.98

00:06:30.500 is good. And then they would stop, close their Bible. And then the good would become an all 0.56

00:06:35.740 encompassing, universal, abstract good that could be whatever you want to teach. And you see what

00:06:42.240 i'm saying have you encountered that at all yeah but i don't think that those are the people that

00:06:48.300 would stick around when i was talking right so i think i think that that is probably i have uh

00:06:58.220 you know it's those are not the people who are writing me questions right what i'm saying fair

00:07:03.180 enough fair enough i i would really hear from people who are far more like for the first time

00:07:09.260 in their life going to try to honor God by learning to bake a cookie or like like this is and

00:07:16.040 that it's this wild thrilling sort of I'm going totally rogue doing something that I never imagined

00:07:23.680 would overlap with my faith in any way uh and I will say so that that's where that's probably

00:07:32.480 where i receive the most background information um you know the most where you see a trajectory

00:07:40.240 and a story of someone's life um from all over the place but not but i think that that's probably

00:07:48.380 our sweet spot those are the people that we're encouraging the most those are the people that

00:07:53.080 we hear the most from um and i would think that a pastor is far more likely to be hearing from the

00:08:00.220 frustrated men who are married to the women who will never, um, but that's not my, that's not my

00:08:07.640 audience. Right. Totally get that. Right. Yeah. I think, so I think part of it is the role that, 0.53

00:08:13.280 you know, that, that I, yes, I am a pastor. And then also part of it is just, uh, that by God's

00:08:18.760 grace, you know, you guys in Moscow and the Wilson crew, you've been at this for a long time. And so

00:08:23.620 I think, um, there, there are some new voices in the biblical manhood, biblical womanhood

00:08:29.360 sphere that, um, and, and I would be one of them, I think by God's grace, you know, like I remember

00:08:35.140 kind of making the shift from, um, a soft complementarianism to more of a biblical

00:08:42.080 patriarchy in 2019 preaching through, um, through first Timothy coming to first Timothy chapter two

00:08:48.480 verses nine through 15. And instead of speeding through, I slowed down and I ended up extending

00:08:54.380 that particular text into four weeks. And I lost 40 adults in the church, about a third of the

00:08:59.420 church when I was done. But that was, you know, my point in saying that is it's been about four

00:09:03.500 years and four years is significantly shorter than 40. And, you know, with your dad and having

00:09:09.580 a faithful presence and being consistent for a very long time, at this point, some of the people

00:09:14.360 I'm encountering probably have written off the Wilsons a long time ago, so that may be part of

00:09:20.920 what's going on, you know. But all that being said, what does Christchurch do, you know, and

00:09:27.540 it's not just Christchurch at this point, you know, but like King's Cross or, you know, all these,

00:09:31.560 you know, the Christchurch world, what do you guys do when it comes to women's ministry? I'm sure a

00:09:37.060 lot of it's just organic, older women actually training younger women in this domestic feminine 1.00

00:09:41.020 godly role in the home but is there any kind of organized formal because my wife does your she'll

00:09:47.500 participate with your workshops there's a lot of things that i've you know you've done from afar

00:09:51.680 but on the ground does christ church have like some big women's ministry or that's formal or

00:09:57.820 what do you do i would say yes and yes and no both we don't call it a women's ministry

00:10:03.700 Uh, there is a ladies fellowship, a ladies fellowship committee, I guess, uh, that is

00:10:10.380 two elders wives, three, three now elders wives and a deacon's wife. So it's elder, it's just a

00:10:17.320 small committee. Um, but most of everything that we do revolves around the hospitality, I would say,

00:10:26.380 and, uh, the Bible reading challenge. And we do, we do try, we have so many new people here. We do

00:10:33.120 try occasionally different things that would amount to kind of like a small like a bible study

00:10:38.220 essentially where we might do a book forum where it's like listen to the book and we'll have a

00:10:42.660 discussion you know uh whatever um and maybe fellowship opportunities but the far and away

00:10:49.240 the biggest things that we do in the year we do the block party at grace agenda which is a

00:10:54.480 just a huge hospitality dinner for 3 500 people or however many came but you guys do try tip

00:11:02.480 instead of brisket. Is that right? I've been reliably informed that you do tri-tip and not

00:11:07.020 brisket. We do tri-tip instead of brisket. That's great. So it sounds like you're doing everything

00:11:12.400 right except for that, but everything else sounds good. Well, we do the tri-tip this year. Some of

00:11:19.560 it is smoked tri-tip, which I suppose, I don't know, I suppose you would smoke brisket, but the

00:11:24.940 Santa Maria grill style is not a low and slow grill style.

00:11:29.940 So it is conducive to tri tip.

00:11:33.120 Whereas brisket would not be,

00:11:35.600 not be the thing you'd want to do on that.

00:11:37.480 I would assume.

00:11:38.920 But I've seen the pictures from afar.

00:11:40.660 It's, it's amazing.

00:11:41.680 I like the grace agenda, big block,

00:11:43.460 but you know, shutting down the whole, it's incredible.

00:11:45.420 Yeah.

00:11:46.580 Yeah, it's really fun.

00:11:47.680 So the, our, we do the Bible reading challenge

00:11:51.340 is something that is our um technically are under or started as a women's ministry in our church

00:11:59.740 and it that started as our goal was like we really can't we have so many fruitful women that there is

00:12:05.820 no way we can throw daytime gatherings and watch your children for you because it is so many

00:12:12.780 children um and it just was like you know we need to do things that encourage women and equip women

00:12:20.460 and are teaching women but are teaching them the i'm going to cut circle back to that but i'll say

00:12:27.100 we were like we want to be able to teach them encourage them equip them from their own homes

00:12:32.540 while they're doing their own work like we're not trying to give you a break from your children so

00:12:37.900 that you can be encouraged we're we're wanting to actually equip you for the work not that i mind

00:12:43.900 someone having their child babysat for something but it was just recognizing that this is actually

00:12:49.820 not our, this is not our responsibility to try to care for everyone's children while we give them

00:12:54.880 a nice coffee or whatever. But I want to circle back around to the Bible reading challenge is

00:13:00.520 reading your Bible. And the thing that we emphasize is that we're not teaching the Bible.

00:13:04.700 We are teaching a, we're teaching a love of the Bible. We're trying to teach people the practical,

00:13:12.760 how do you get from where you are with no Bible reading habits to a woman of the word? And how

00:13:18.800 can we encourage each other in that way? And that way, I would say it is so consistent with Titus

00:13:24.040 to teaching them, you know, good things, which is instead of us doing a, let me exposit the word for

00:13:32.120 you, let me show you what the word is telling you right now. We are trying to teach that you should

00:13:38.340 love the word. And this is what it looks like to love the word. And this is how, this is how,

00:13:43.300 weirdly, this is a, the Bible reading challenge has been probably the most shocking thing that

00:13:49.140 we tell women is that you can and should read the Bible in your regular life. Like when your kids 0.92

00:13:55.520 are around, when the house is crazy, when there's noise in the background, and stop thinking that

00:14:01.200 you need this other solitary spiritual moment. And that's the only way you can read your Bible.

00:14:07.260 So I would say that's very consistent with it. Like we want to be very practical.

00:14:11.980 we're not trying to be like i'm going to walk you through my view on this finally a coffee company

00:14:19.180 that doesn't hate you and your beliefs today's sponsor squirrely joe's coffee is a thoroughly

00:14:24.780 christian company that ships seriously good coffee straight to your front door owned and

00:14:30.560 operated by joe morris and his family out of olney illinois they believe that christians should be

00:14:36.800 building a thoroughly christian economy by doing business with other like-minded christians they

00:14:42.960 also donate a portion of their proceeds to operation underground railroad to help in child

00:14:49.560 trafficking just go to squirrelyjoes.com and use promo code rrm for 20 off your purchase squirrely

00:14:59.280 joe's coffee share coffee serve humbly live faithfully folks now this is a product you're

00:15:05.600 going to want to try. It's called biltong. It's a traditional meat snack from South Africa,

00:15:10.180 kind of like beef jerky, except without any of the preservatives, sugar, or soy. If you're hungry

00:15:16.060 and you need a protein bar, don't do it. It's filled with sugar and carbs. Instead, you're

00:15:20.920 going to want to grab some Farmer Bill's biltong. It's got all the protein and the fat that your

00:15:25.620 body actually needs. There's also a nice marbling with each slice, so it's kind of like having a

00:15:30.920 preserved New York strip. Farmer Bills provides four fantastic flavors. You've got original,

00:15:36.820 spicy chili, smokehouse, and bison. And all you got to do is go to their website to order.

00:15:42.100 That's farmerbillsprovisions.com. The owner of this company is a post-millennial reformed

00:15:48.540 Christian who loves our show. Support the parallel Christian economy, again, by going to 0.78

00:15:53.620 farmerbillsprovisions.com. And I imagine that with the Bible reading challenge, part of what you're

00:15:59.900 providing also is just that sense of community and accountability, you know, that a bunch of

00:16:05.780 women, not just in isolation, reading the Bible as their two-year-old is, is having a fit. Um,

00:16:11.600 you know, and maybe you put the Bible down for a moment, but, um, for the fit, but, but like not

00:16:16.920 just women in isolation, but not, not just, uh, women in isolation, you know, trying to be

00:16:22.200 disciplined in reading the scripture. But I feel like one of the big advantages of, you know,

00:16:25.560 cause everybody's got a Bible reading plan, you know, like I remember when I first saw that just

00:16:29.820 to speak frankly i thought only the wilson's could um could get some kind of original

00:16:36.980 um credit for a bible reading plant how do you how to you know how is this special

00:16:43.160 credit where where we actually had people warning people to not do it what are you serious

00:16:49.360 are you serious why so much careful ladies careful these people it was just so funny like

00:16:57.760 i'm sorry okay i don't even care if it was a mormon plan that tells you what to read in your

00:17:03.300 bible you can follow it i take it back i i thought because i i've only heard the positive things of

00:17:08.720 like man uh christ church you know and uh they do the bible reading challenge and and that's so

00:17:14.360 awesome i'm like okay um okay read read the bible there's our covenant bible church bible reading

00:17:21.440 like but anyway but my point is it it took off for a reason you know i say that all tongue tongue

00:17:26.300 in cheek. It took off for a reason. I think part of it is because, uh, not because it's a two hour,

00:17:31.140 like what you said, it's not a two hour thing where we're going to watch the kids and you're

00:17:33.800 going to have a coffee and you're going to have, you know, a charcuterie board and read the Bible

00:17:37.920 and exposit it for two hours. But it's, but it's just the community of knowing if I don't read

00:17:42.840 today, sure. I just hop back on the next day, but also I, I'm, um, I'm, I'm, I'm doing this with

00:17:48.820 other people and we're discussing it together and we're keeping each other accountable and people

00:17:53.940 need that because so many of our Bible reading habits are that like what you're describing that

00:17:58.780 you know we literally go into a closet and it's this very quiet you know personal spiritual moment

00:18:05.040 instead of no we have lives and our lives involve our families first but then our community our

00:18:09.620 church beyond that and we're reading everything we're doing we're doing together including reading

00:18:13.920 the scripture so I I see why why it took off but so that's one thing that you guys are doing is the

00:18:18.540 Bible reading challenge and most people don't think when they think women's ministry they would

00:18:23.040 not think that what are some other things that you guys do well uh the summers in the bible reading

00:18:29.000 challenge is the same page summer we read the new testament in the summer and then the whole bible

00:18:34.140 in the academic year and and so this summer one of the things that we did a kids plan for locally

00:18:41.560 the kids plan had like different treats on different days that were like around the town

00:18:46.780 like all different businesses that like where you could get a free cookie if you brought your

00:18:50.500 you're planning and got a stamp and whatever that's just about to wrap up um this week with

00:18:56.740 the treasure box at the church office so like you read your way through so but all of that stuff all

00:19:01.300 of the prizes the things is something that our ladies fellowship paid for with our but you know

00:19:06.740 like it's things that we're doing um so i would say we're trying to be we're trying to be i don't

00:19:14.180 want to say we're trying to meet all of the needs but we're trying to see the places where women in

00:19:17.860 in the church genuinely need encouragement and help like whether it's acclimating here or um we

00:19:24.560 did we do a huge thing we did the first one last easter and it was so fun and uh it was one of

00:19:32.940 those things that when we did it we were like wait this is this is the new tradition this is

00:19:37.940 gonna happen now every spring um and it was a homemaking fair which was just super fun there 0.98

00:19:44.200 were ever they we had a whole bunch of different ladies that had like essentially booths to show 1.00

00:19:49.020 people what they were doing like uh lots of talented women with crazy like really funny 1.00

00:19:55.260 wide variety of things and then we did had big prizes of fun things like table setting for 12

00:20:02.780 for sabbath dinners and stuff like big raffle prizes and lots of gifts and it was a really

00:20:07.900 wonderful um part of the thing that would surprise people is that we feel like that's a great way to

00:20:13.680 spend money is encouraging women to love their homes right encouraging them to be excited about

00:20:21.040 wanting to win a sewing machine or a new iron you know like right this is uh that this is a great 0.91

00:20:27.280 use for that it was a super fun time so i would say our ladies fellowship is abnormal in that way

00:20:32.640 we don't have a regular mentorship program or um but we do rely heavily on the fact that we

00:20:40.880 We have a community of women who are themselves always looking for opportunities to be hospitable, looking to encourage people.

00:20:48.580 So we don't have a real women's ministry where it's a top-down structure. 0.64

00:20:54.560 Right, right. 0.84

00:20:56.440 It's very like we expect all of the women to be engaged in encouraging each other in things. 0.68

00:21:03.860 Amen.

00:21:05.200 It's a small city, but we give other people planned events for us.

00:21:10.880 right no i love that and it's and part of it is because it's not that you don't have that at all

00:21:15.760 it's because uh yes you're women but you're also you're christians just like your husbands and

00:21:21.460 just like the children um and so in terms of a context like like what if we could you know i've

00:21:27.880 thought this as a as a pastor i've thought what if we could come up with a weekly event that was for

00:21:33.700 women and men and children where someone could could take the scripture and teach it and we

00:21:40.280 could sing together right yeah you know what i mean and and it could be overseen by by men but

00:21:45.900 they don't just oversee the men but also the women and they're biblically qualified uh we could call

00:21:50.660 them elders you know so i think that sometimes women in the the church they forget that they

00:21:56.400 have a church we have a church like what people will say sometimes to me they're like well what

00:22:01.200 you know what what kind of what are you doing for women to learn theology and like when i look at 0.62

00:22:05.620 first corinthians 14 for instance where it's like okay it's shameful for a woman to speak in church

00:22:09.620 but then it's quickly followed up like if she has anything she wants to learn let her ask her

00:22:13.840 husband at home that if the husband's doing a good job and if she's doing a good job in inquiring

00:22:18.320 and actually being obedient and asking those questions then there won't really be any disparity

00:22:22.860 between what the husband is learning and what she's learning because all of his learning is

00:22:27.660 is is hers it belongs to her it's her right she and so um and and the primary context where both

00:22:33.720 men and women are learning is side by side with their butts in a pew on the Lord's Day

00:22:38.640 from pastors. And I think some of it is just our dissatisfaction. We've grown so bored.

00:22:44.300 We've lost the magic of the Lord's Day gathering of the saints. We don't realize,

00:22:48.820 which is why probably a lot of churches were content to shut down with COVID, that we don't

00:22:54.760 realize how that's the tip of the spear. That's the whole enchilada. And so, unless there's some

00:23:02.260 church that's barring women from, from Lord's day attendance, then I, I just, I don't, I don't 0.96

00:23:07.240 understand that the profound concern of we've got to have this two hour or three hour women's only 0.96

00:23:13.660 event with no kids to, you know, cause they're an interruption and a burden and one woman is going

00:23:19.120 to stand in front and she's going to do everything that the pastor would do with no difference

00:23:22.800 whatsoever, but it's still technically okay. Cause only women are present. And I just, I, 1.00

00:23:28.360 when I look at the scripture and I look at, um, the, the, the importance of the local gathering

00:23:33.400 with, with men, women, and children all together on the Lord's day. And then I look at Titus two,

00:23:38.040 I just don't see that. And it's not even that that can never happen, but I just, I don't see

00:23:43.060 that as a staple in the new Testament, but it's, it appears to be like this non-negotiable, we must

00:23:49.940 have it staple in the church today. And I'm not talking about in some, uh, charismatic word of

00:23:55.900 faith you know heretical i'm talking even within the reformed camp what you're discussing right

00:24:02.160 now what i'm discussing people will listen and they'll hear what you just said about winning

00:24:06.580 prizes and the prize might be a new iron or a sewing machine and they will get like like visibly

00:24:12.640 angry they'll get they'll get mad and i'm talking about in our camp yeah i think okay this is kind

00:24:21.040 of circling back i don't i don't know okay you said you thought it was funny that we could say

00:24:27.120 we're going to read the bible together but i think that you're it's that you're in a niche

00:24:33.620 world also you know like and this is in the niche world that you're in is actually not the one that

00:24:39.660 i'm in it's not the same it's a different thing um and the reformed world has a lot of variety

00:24:45.900 in it and that there are different flavors in different camps and and uh i think that this is

00:24:54.940 you can correct me if i am wrong about this i have talked about the bible reading challenge

00:24:59.740 with christians all over the place and even if you hone into like i'd be i'd be willing to say

00:25:06.660 i've talked enough about the bible reading challenge that i have spoken to thousands of

00:25:10.060 people about it um in different places because i've been occasionally at a table at a conference

00:25:15.120 or any, you know, like, were you really talking to people about it?

00:25:18.740 In some, there is a more introspective, emotional, reformed world

00:25:24.460 where people are not possibly reading their Bibles

00:25:29.140 but are eaten alive by guilt that they're not reading their Bibles.

00:25:32.800 They are more likely to get convicted about one verse

00:25:37.360 and go journal 30 pages about how they're feeling about it 1.00

00:25:42.340 and not like and where that's really just although it's rampant in those churches that women are not

00:25:48.820 reading their bibles but are wildly introspective feeling guilty all the time not getting any um

00:25:56.420 external to them work done that's spiritual at all because they're just trying to survive

00:26:02.020 the life here while they live this turmoil laden life of the soul you know like that where this

00:26:08.900 This is a thing.

00:26:09.940 So on the one hand, the Bible reading challenge is super encouraging to those people because we're trying to break through all these random barriers.

00:26:16.840 But in the world that I suspect you're more part of, way, way, way more people are troubled with pride over what they know about their Bibles.

00:26:27.980 And I've had way more conversations in that particular world at conferences in that world, great conference in that world where people are actually disgusted with the idea that anyone is struggling with their Bible reading.

00:26:42.680 They're just like, what? Who? Not me. I would never, you know, like I would never be the sort of person who didn't finish reading my whole Bible.

00:26:52.100 you know like i would do that and that's a little world where they have a problem because they're not

00:26:56.980 a lot of the time not applying it you know like they're living strangely kind of barren joyless

00:27:03.620 lives but they're full of the full of the arguments for their like like they want to argue their heads

00:27:09.940 off about different things but they're not actually it's not touching the ground ever right uh and then

00:27:16.020 there are just kind of more sloppy evangelical world where people are like never considered

00:27:20.740 reading their bible really it seems hard you know like um and there's these funny and so i think it

00:27:26.180 really depends on what which group you got in that's true but i would say that i bet you anything

00:27:32.820 that the treatment of the word uh is really reflected that treatment of their word and bible

00:27:40.260 reading is really reflected uh also in what we are talking about with women's ministry right you know

00:27:46.180 that you have wildly emotional kind of introspective uh groups where the reason you have to have

00:27:53.620 women's gatherings is because we have to grieve with each other we have to emote with each other

00:27:58.980 we have to search our hearts together um then you have the little groups that want to get together 0.99

00:28:04.580 to line up all of our arguments you know to fight the feminists right uh and then you have the

00:28:10.980 people that really don't know what they're doing they're like i'm just here because i don't you 0.90

00:28:15.220 You know, I just think that it probably follows their real cultural differences in those things.

00:28:21.700 Yeah, you're right.

00:28:23.140 No, you're right.

00:28:23.680 There's certainly, especially today, I'm sure it's always been this way.

00:28:27.360 And I'm probably just learning these things for the first time.

00:28:31.720 But it does seem as though there were, you know, Christianity has always had its multiple camps.

00:28:39.460 But it seems like if we had 100 camps, it seems like now we have 1,000.

00:28:45.220 like each one of those camps further fractured into 10 more camps.

00:28:49.440 And so, you know, within the reformed world, you know, I mean, there were differences.

00:28:55.060 There were guys who, you know, were reformed in soteriology only,

00:28:58.560 Calvinistic Baptist types that were continuationists.

00:29:01.080 And then, of course, there are Presbyterian guys, Westminster.

00:29:03.760 There are reformed Baptists that are confessional with the 1689.

00:29:06.560 There was, you know, some variety.

00:29:08.660 But now it's not like you have like three or four or five different reformed sections.

00:29:13.320 you now have a hundred. Like we just, we're at each other's throats because, um, because we had

00:29:20.460 this whole 2020 wokeness COVID thing. And, and half of us thought, you know, wokeness is not,

00:29:27.180 not a good look. That's not what the Bible teaches. And, and so it's like, we've, it feels

00:29:31.880 like we lost half of the team, but then the half that stayed now come to find out we were united

00:29:37.080 on the problem, but we disagree on the solution, you know, and some it's like, I think classical

00:29:41.880 liberalism and you know principled pluralism i think that'll work you know let's just get back

00:29:46.400 to that that the night 1985 was awesome and then there are others like your dad you know who's like

00:29:52.100 well i think um i think we should uh have chrysidom and you know and uh you know mere

00:29:58.620 mere chrysidom and mere chrysidom yeah that's you're right to be fair it's a mere chrysidom

00:30:04.600 um and so anyway so and then even with that there's a difference between you know are you

00:30:08.920 the post-mill theonomy guy or are you more of a classical two kingdom tomist kind of uh you know

00:30:14.680 so anyway so all that being said it's you know it's and it's going to be really interesting i'm

00:30:19.020 i'm honored that like uh gay branch you know he invited me to join your dad and steven wolf uh

00:30:24.580 for a panel discussion at fight la feast off of different versions of christian nationalism you

00:30:29.460 know so we're gonna and we'll see how that goes that'll be really interesting but all that being

00:30:33.580 said, we're so fractured right now. And you're right. Like the, that on one hand, I like to

00:30:38.460 think that I'm in the same camp as you, cause I like your camp. I like your dad. I like what's

00:30:44.440 going on in Moscow, but there's so many, you know, tiny little isolated and, and all that's

00:30:50.920 exasperated right now. And I don't know what's going to happen, but anyway, it's okay that there

00:30:56.740 are so many camps. It's still just one body, you know, it's like, there's a lot of confusion in

00:31:02.980 places but it's not like there's still tons of solidarity uh it's just sometimes it's it's easy

00:31:10.800 to get your eyes only on the terrible things that are happening you know but a lot of a lot of the

00:31:16.340 reason we know about all this is not because people just got worse it's just because we actually

00:31:20.700 know what's happening everywhere right and we can communicate with everyone instead of just having

00:31:27.240 a little feud with the church down the road from us we now can have a little feud with whoever we

00:31:32.620 pick out on the internet you know we can mark and avoid people from a long way away true very true

00:31:39.440 our sponsors private family banking partners is on a mission to help christians live out the 0.52

00:31:45.040 dominion mandate by making a stealth-like move away from the mainstream banks and into their

00:31:52.060 own privatized banking system this innovative system is designed to guarantee uninterrupted

00:31:58.840 compound interest and tax-free growth without exposure to typical stock market risk. To join

00:32:06.620 this growing community that is already building wealth unto future generations and converting

00:32:12.740 post-mill talk into post-mill action, contact Private Family Banking partner Chuck Delateronte

00:32:21.460 at his email chuck at privatefamilybanking.com that's chuck at privatefamilybanking.com

00:32:31.140 set up an appointment and receive a free copy of chuck's new book protect your money now how to

00:32:38.220 build multi-generational wealth outside of wall street and avoid the coming banking meltdown

00:32:45.020 go to the links in the show notes below are you looking for a christian owned and operated cattle

00:32:51.040 company that delivers high quality beef to your doorstep if so you'll love mercy meadows ranch

00:32:57.460 our friends at mercy meadows share our values and vision making the dominion mandate a reality

00:33:03.760 they raise top quality beef without any vaccines hormones or antibiotics to celebrate their fall

00:33:11.200 bulk beef launch they're giving away a free 10 pound box of ground beef to one of our listeners

00:33:17.700 You could be the winner of this amazing grass-fed, grain-finished beef.

00:33:23.320 Are you looking for beef to fill the freezer?

00:33:26.120 Then check out their delicious steaks, roast, fajitas, and ground beef shipped free directly

00:33:32.840 to your door.

00:33:34.340 Don't miss this chance to enter this incredible giveaway.

00:33:38.080 Just click the link in the description below to enter the giveaway.

00:33:42.480 Mercy Meadows Ranch is the best choice for Christian families who want to eat healthy

00:33:47.700 and support christians serving christians so bible reading challenge um and then you you guys um

00:33:56.320 well let's just talk about this i know this isn't necessarily a christ church thing this is more of

00:34:00.460 a your thing um but could you just share with our audience what you do with your workshops my wife

00:34:06.240 has participated multiple women in our church they love it yeah webinar okay i didn't know what to

00:34:11.020 call it but yeah i have not done any because i just had a baby eight months ago i've not done

00:34:16.180 any since i had him so uh and i don't have one right now that i'm about to do that i know of

00:34:23.440 yet uh so i don't have one to push there but there are pretty much what it would be would be a live

00:34:28.780 discussion of something with a q a at the end and i think most of them or maybe all of them are now

00:34:34.380 on canon plus which is cool i think what you're talking about so while there's no live q a that

00:34:41.100 can happen you can still go watch those so they're typically topical something that i feel like i see

00:34:47.980 like as a thing that we need to talk about but i um so there's some i think there's detox for

00:34:54.180 the modern mom was one of them there's like culture building uh there was a friendship one

00:34:59.400 you know like there's just emotional control things that i see being issues uh and my hope

00:35:04.280 in those is always to kind of my hope is that they'll always be practical but they often really

00:35:09.360 have to start with like let's talk about what we believe what does the bible say and how should

00:35:14.240 this inform our behavior in this area um which i would say they're very i mean i am doing the

00:35:20.160 webinars for women so i am choosing issues that i think are issues for women you know like what do

00:35:27.080 i think um are things people need to talk about so basically that's what cool yeah that one example

00:35:34.280 I always use in terms of like that older woman training younger women that's getting in, it's

00:35:40.120 just getting into theology and the abstract and you have to, and then, and then applying what one

00:35:45.640 common example would be submission to husbands. Like, so I always think of first Peter three,

00:35:49.780 my wife has probably had this conversation more than any other conversation with, you know, other

00:35:53.920 women in the church and, you know, she's the pastor's wife and she's giving some counsel about,

00:35:58.960 okay, things are hot right now in the marriage and not hot in a good way, but like hot in an

00:36:03.540 argumentative way. And the woman is seeking counsel, you know, from a godly woman in the

00:36:09.140 church. And my wife, you know, occasionally appears in the picture. And one of the things

00:36:13.760 that often comes up is, you know, in 1 Peter 3, it, you know, it ends by, you know, and you are

00:36:19.120 her daughter, speaking of Sarah, that, you know, the women of old, these holy women of old, she

00:36:22.960 called her husband, you know, lowercase l, Lord. And you are like her, you will be like her, do

00:36:27.880 likewise and be her daughter if you also likewise submit to your husband and do not fear anything

00:36:33.920 that is frightening. And so right there, that last part, fear anything that is frightening,

00:36:38.060 usually the conversation goes something like this. My wife will sit with someone for, you know,

00:36:43.180 30 minutes, 45 minutes and talk to them about submission to a husband. And about 70% of it 0.65

00:36:49.760 on the front half will be about the sovereignty of God. And it'll be a full orbs, right? It's not

00:36:56.280 just a, just particular to a woman, but it's a full orbed doctrine of the sovereignty of God that

00:37:01.440 he can, he controls every, there's no maverick, you know, molecule in the universe that Sproul

00:37:05.700 would have said, uh, God is sovereign over everything, including, and now we're going to

00:37:09.360 apply it, including your husband, including your husband. That's why Peter could talk to, um, to

00:37:14.760 someone who's married to even an unbelieving husband. And, and, and he could say submission 0.85

00:37:20.340 is something that God commands. And, um, the thing that's frightening in that context, at least in

00:37:26.120 my assessment, that the first thing that he might be referencing, do not fear anything that is

00:37:30.360 frightening, is the frightening reality of submitting to a sinner. And so my wife, in order

00:37:36.560 to apply that, she first has to give a full orbed understanding of not sourdough or ironing, but

00:37:46.260 the sovereignty of God, but then applies it to, and I think that's beautiful. I think that is

00:37:51.760 absolutely Titus 2 approved. That's what it is. So it's not that women can't teach doctrine of

00:37:58.640 God or can't teach God's sovereignty or can't teach substitutionary atonement. Of course they 0.77

00:38:03.040 can. They must. They must. But then it's applied. And now, and that's really, that's the same thing

00:38:08.820 with older men training younger men. If you go just a little bit further in Titus 2, I think

00:38:13.040 that that's not a reference of elders teaching on the Lord's day to the gathered saints, but that's

00:38:18.320 older men on a Tuesday afternoon training younger men in particular things that pertain to manhood.

00:38:24.240 And that's always what we're doing is we're taking theology and applying it. And I think part of the

00:38:28.680 problem, part of the reason why women's ministries and men's ministries for that matter, these kinds

00:38:33.780 of things have gotten off the rails is because we don't do theology applied. We don't have, as you

00:38:40.040 guys would say, theology that comes out of our fingertips. It's just, let's talk about theology

00:38:44.780 in the abstract and, and, and not what does it look like on the ground? And it's when you get

00:38:50.580 to the ground, the practical side that it's helpful, but that's also where it usually ends

00:38:56.260 up getting controversial. That's where you'll get a lot of the negative feedback. You know,

00:38:59.820 she said what, or he, he did what, you know, because if you just talk about God being sovereign

00:39:04.900 or you just talk, the husband's the head of the home, but you don't ever give any practical

00:39:09.500 example of what headship might look like on a Wednesday morning, then, then you're probably

00:39:14.020 safe, not safe from the rainbow flag, you know, Ukraine flag, you know, you know, pronouns in the

00:39:19.040 bio, but you're probably safe from people in the larger camp. But when you get practical,

00:39:24.100 that's when you get in trouble. And so I think it may be a fear of getting backlash or also just

00:39:29.860 the fact that none of us were heroes of the word, but we're just not doers in our generation.

00:39:33.840 There's a real problem with it, but one or the other, there's just such a massive lack of

00:39:39.080 application. And so I think any women's ministry that 45 minutes of doctrine of God, great. But

00:39:45.960 then that Q&A and discussion and the practical application that's unique to women, your actual 0.97

00:39:51.400 years, that's what makes it Titus 2. And it's glorious. But a lot of people don't, we don't do

00:39:57.460 that. On the men's side, the women's side, the whole nine yards, we don't apply theology. Do you

00:40:01.740 have any thoughts about that? I think it's, I think you're right. But I think a big part of

00:40:07.420 that is that applying theology to anyone uh it always it's always reflective on yourself it's

00:40:15.160 always it's like it's much easier to talk about the abstracts than it is to say so in this exact

00:40:23.320 situation you need to say you're sorry for having been bossy about whatever because it does call in

00:40:30.680 your own behavior it does make you reflect on how like have i been you know i might not be having

00:40:36.960 this particular problem right now but it's amazing how having to speak really practically

00:40:42.800 does does draw your attention to your own shortcomings right it just always does uh and

00:40:49.680 that's in the best possible circumstance like when when the person that you're counseling is

00:40:55.520 receiving it graciously and wants to do what you said you still are gonna probably notice the places

00:41:03.200 that you're like and that's a huge benefit of of actually trying to disciple and counsel people

00:41:10.000 uh if you're willing you know if you're willing for that a huge benefit of it is it often just

00:41:15.280 brings things to your attention that you were not focused on right now that you need to be

00:41:20.320 focused on right now you know like i you have a moment where you're like listen you need to think

00:41:26.160 of ways that you can bless your husband and you need to like let me walk you through how you can

00:41:31.600 think and then you're like oh wow rachel turns out you should think about this too right now it was

00:41:36.240 not on my mind you know like it's a it is the kind of thing um that and that just happens all the time

00:41:41.920 so that's uncomfortable right it's an uncomfortable thing to actually start applying things it's like

00:41:47.840 looks shockingly like spiritual work right now we're gonna get down to the thing that's like

00:41:54.240 Like that's when it crosses your own flesh.

00:41:57.140 That's when it is like the reason you need to apply it because you're not doing it naturally or instinctively or it's, you know, it's always there's always some level of rebuke in that.

00:42:11.600 Right.

00:42:11.860 It just is the way they think.

00:42:13.740 So I would say it's fear.

00:42:15.480 It's protecting yourself and protecting the person that you need to talk to, because the reality is it takes a lot of courage right now and these days to biblically counsel someone like when they say what's wrong.

00:42:31.380 And any pastor's wife probably can tell you when you need to counsel someone who you feel like might explode and everything you say might be on the Internet, out of context.

00:42:42.520 And the flesh does not always want to say, here's how it is, you know, like, let me tell you, because you just know you might, I mean, there's a self-protective instinct there that you really have to overcome, that you have to be willing to be like, well, Lord, use it.

00:43:04.080 i'm i'm gonna say what i know to be true uh and i'm willing to like if this means someone's gonna

00:43:10.920 go around and tell all their friends and make a big scene somewhere uh so be it you know here it

00:43:17.340 goes yep no you're absolutely right that's very insightful i didn't even think about that but also

00:43:22.200 just um one of the hindrances um is the self-preservation and that's i mean my kids would

00:43:29.540 you know be the first ones to tell you if you ask like what you know what's one of the most

00:43:33.160 common prayers that dad prays in the home. Um, every morning we pray through a number of things,

00:43:38.560 but one of them is God, please protect us from, uh, from those who would seek to do us harm.

00:43:42.940 Because every day, like that, that's a reality is that, um, there are people who want to destroy

00:43:48.160 our lives. They, you know, they, I mean, they really, they really want to destroy our lives.

00:43:53.560 And so, you know, praying like for God's protection, uh, so that you can, so that you

00:43:58.300 actually can have the courage to minister and disciple and, and give something knowing that,

00:44:06.220 that in today's climate, um, there is a very real possibility that, um, as much as you give all that

00:44:13.240 can be weaponized and turned back against you to, uh, to ruin your life. And so it is a very,

00:44:18.560 it is a very, uh, dangerous thing, uh, to minister to others. It's like, if you,

00:44:25.140 if you want to just survive and and you know preserve yourself then don't don't be a christian

00:44:33.420 and don't do discipleship and don't don't minister because if you do you're putting a target on your

00:44:38.700 chest so yeah no that that's really insightful um last thing is um i would love to hear just

00:44:44.620 a little bit are you and uh your sister becca are you still doing your podcast allegedly we are

00:44:50.400 we've had a really wild summer where we're never in the same place for a few minutes but yes we are

00:44:57.580 we are still doing it although we've had a lot of down time this summer that's fine um so tell us

00:45:04.660 tell our listeners about you know because that that's for women um and i've heard like two

00:45:09.700 episodes because i'm not a woman but occasionally my wife is like you have to she does the same

00:45:13.260 thing with bright hearth you know brian sove is is a friend and his wife lexi and um i like brian

00:45:20.040 but I don't like Bright Hearth, you know, so, but my wife, she listens, you know, every single time

00:45:26.760 they come out with something and occasionally, you know, she'll, she'll, you gotta listen to this

00:45:30.400 one. And so anyway, so I've listened to a couple of you and Becca and the ones that she had me

00:45:34.800 listen to were fantastic, but what, it's not like your typical pockets. It's not what you would

00:45:39.960 think of, of like a women's ministry, but it's, I think it's so good. It's so healthy. So tell

00:45:45.360 our listeners, what is a podcast like with you and your sister? What are you guys trying to achieve?

00:45:50.040 well i'll tell you how it happened which was back when someone was saying you guys should

00:45:54.520 really do a podcast i really think you should do a podcast and we were like well what is the kind

00:46:00.920 of podcast that we would possibly do and we were like if we don't have to go anywhere like we don't

00:46:07.560 have to be in a studio we record our podcast on a phone in the car together we do not prepare in

00:46:16.440 advance for what we're going to talk about um so i would say i know for sure it's far more like

00:46:23.960 friends talking about what's going on and we do always try to have i can't swear that it's

00:46:30.280 always happened but we do try to have some more spiritual not just blabbing about our

00:46:37.000 details of our life or things that we're thinking about but we do try to talk more about spiritual

00:46:41.880 issues i think that the part of the reason it is helpful for people is that it is so

00:46:47.560 on i would i don't know if i'd say unplanned unscholarly and it is actually more like

00:46:55.160 inviting people to join us in applying our faith to our lives and talking about what's going on and

00:47:00.680 what's it mean and how to you know and maybe what we're working through uh so that's the goal of it

00:47:07.000 it really is we don't try to confine ourselves to specific themes or you know we'll just talk about

00:47:13.160 whatever so you have to have a high tolerance for people just talking you know interrupting each

00:47:20.580 other to enjoy yeah but if you have that then then you might enjoy it cool um one of the ones

00:47:29.080 that my wife shared with me was i think it was recently after your um your youngest boy was born

00:47:35.240 and uh and you were you were sharing something with your sister and uh and you like started to

00:47:42.080 get a little emotional which you don't normally do and uh and becca was like like rachel it's it's

00:47:49.180 okay this time's okay like you can cry you know she said something like that i think it was probably

00:47:54.380 the one that we called a very a leaky a leaky episode or something you can't talk about something

00:47:59.420 without feeling a little bit wow um but that has been the case i mean ezra is our eighth

00:48:05.740 baby he was born with down syndrome uh which was a surprise at birth so this is what i'm assuming

00:48:12.220 that's that's right yeah tell us oh just i it was you would have been that episode yeah and it is

00:48:19.740 funny we're not really emotional emotionally it's wrong because i would not say we're not emotional

00:48:25.580 I would say we're not usually we're not just going to talk all about our feelings or we would not usually get teary on the podcast.

00:48:35.120 And in that one, it's for sure.

00:48:36.820 I was like, man, it's funny how much you realize it was you cry not because you're sad, but because you're talking about very deeply held beliefs, like because you need to talk about things that you really, truly believe to your core.

00:48:50.120 like that god is good that this is a gift that he's not surprised that this is that this is

00:48:57.080 everything that we're supposed to be doing and there's no um it wasn't like you know i i don't

00:49:02.560 remember what all we were talking about in that episode except for the fact that i was saying

00:49:06.280 it's funny you just have all of these these realizations you know that there never was

00:49:11.840 an ezra who didn't have down syndrome like god has always known that this is what he was doing

00:49:17.740 And as much as it surprised us to have a baby at all in my 40s, we say he's the dot on the exclamation point.

00:49:26.560 But you know that God always knew and that God was always doing this.

00:49:32.740 And that it's a beautiful thing to immediately receive it as, yes, Lord, I am willing to do whatever.

00:49:41.000 And I love how much Ezra has been, his whole life has been like kind of not, I wouldn't say funny, but a comedy of some sorts of answered prayers.

00:49:53.060 You know, when I first found out I was pregnant with him and we were very shocked in spite of the fact that we had seven other children.

00:50:00.240 We acted like people who had never taken a pregnancy test that time.

00:50:06.280 This cannot like, where did this come from?

00:50:09.240 But I think as we were so at peace that we thought we were clear on what God wanted from us, you know, like it was like it wasn't that we were actively saying, no, we can never have another child.

00:50:20.960 We're so invested in not.

00:50:23.040 It was just that we were very comfortable with the fact that we felt like God had given us a ton to do and we were trying to faithfully do it.

00:50:29.940 And then it was a really funny surprise to be pregnant.

00:50:33.400 And it was hilarious how much we were having the whole like saying.

00:50:36.960 saying i i think that this test is saying i'm pregnant

00:50:40.460 i don't think so i think that that's just no that's just the control line like we were like

00:50:47.060 first timers all the way again hilarious anyways as much what is the what's the gap between uh the

00:50:54.800 seventh and eighth child seven seven years seven years okay so that was really a surprise

00:51:00.980 yeah seven years and our oldest was just going into college so we just moved into it was our

00:51:07.460 first year of all of the kids well she was in college but everybody else in school all day and

00:51:12.900 like it was the first sort of like okay this is a different era it was a hilarious like whoa the

00:51:19.580 lord has a very different plan and uh i get super morning sick so a huge amount of the nerves about

00:51:28.040 finding out that I was pregnant was like, that's going to be a significant chunk of time that I

00:51:35.600 become useless to the family. You know, that I am more than useless. Actually, I'm laying down 0.98

00:51:41.340 on the bathroom floor puking or whatever I'm doing. I'm not making dinner and I'm not doing

00:51:45.680 the laundry and people are having to feed me. People are having to try to keep me alive.

00:51:51.480 And in the middle of a real what felt like a breathless pace of life, you feel like, oh,

00:51:57.220 my word i'm about to like i was very sick at my daughter's high school graduation you know like

00:52:03.460 it was it was a funny time it was funny time and uh so my nerves on finding out i was pregnant

00:52:10.200 have far more to do with the morning sickness you know far more to do with the like oh man

00:52:15.200 buckle up because here comes the time that we all hate and uh but one of the i think of ezra

00:52:23.500 as being such an answer to prayer, because I prayed so much then at the very beginning,

00:52:28.380 like, Lord, root out for me any spirit of self-preservation, any desire to like,

00:52:33.740 no, I don't want to give this, or I'm not willing, like, I don't want to be sick right now,

00:52:37.840 or I don't want to do this right now. And also just be glorified in this life,

00:52:43.380 be glorified by this child, be glorified by this. And I cannot think of a better answer

00:52:49.540 to those prayers than this precious little boy that we were given we never saw that coming you

00:52:55.900 know it was no none of it was our plan but it is so sweet knowing how clearly i mean i i always it's

00:53:03.380 awkward to say this it's so sweet that we believe that god is in control of everything but that's

00:53:08.840 not what's sweet what's sweet is that god is in control of everything uh and it is just a mercy

00:53:15.660 that we trust that he is, you know, like his, the design of nothing really could be more precious

00:53:21.860 than what he has done for us in this child. It's been a wonderful, sweet time. Uh, but it was so

00:53:29.260 not of our doing, you know, so not our idea of what we were going to do. Um, it's just been a

00:53:34.500 really super precious. And I would say nobody goes around saying, Hey guys, it's actually super fun

00:53:41.840 to have five teenagers and a newborn it's it's actually really cool to have nobody aims for that

00:53:49.800 kids spread i don't know why well i figure you get you probably get a decent amount of help

00:53:54.980 to have older children several older children you know yes they are they are a sweet help

00:54:01.720 although we have i would say i always we have strong feelings about that that this is our child

00:54:08.100 not their child like i'm that so it is what is sweet is having so many people have almost

00:54:14.600 adult relationships to the baby that is a really that's very different than when i felt like it

00:54:21.640 was all babies in the house like his morning is just slammed with everybody coming in separately

00:54:27.960 to say good morning to him like to be like here i am good morning you know like they're all like

00:54:33.120 it's like his appointments in the morning are very busy that's funny but no that that's

00:54:38.080 a good way of putting it adult relationships, uh, to the child and not, um, mom relationships.

00:54:43.060 Cause I'm with you 100%. That's one of the things that with, um, I remember watching, you know,

00:54:47.780 the documentary, the happy, shiny people, you know, cause everybody was talking to me. And

00:54:51.520 at the end of the day, like it was a hit job on Christians, of course. Um, but there were some 0.99

00:54:55.960 things that, that you, you and I and your camp, my camp, like we would strongly differ. We'd say

00:55:00.120 patriarchy is good. Uh, children are good blessing from the Lord. Um, all these things are really

00:55:05.620 good. But I remember, you know, multiple things, but one thing in particular that me and my wife,

00:55:09.300 we looked at each other on the couch and we're like, uh, but they talked about, you know, uh, 1.00

00:55:13.620 it was the, the Duggard mother saying, you know, that, uh, once the child, um, you know, when the, 0.93

00:55:18.920 when they're an infant, uh, then they're my buddy, the buddy system. But once they're two years old, 0.96

00:55:24.500 they become your buddy and buddy. And then, and then they show what, what buddy means. And it's

00:55:29.900 like the, the two-year-old sleeping in one of the older daughter's beds with her at night. And so

00:55:35.060 a buddy. And I was like, Oh, I know what you mean by buddy, but you, you, you mean baby. Like when

00:55:39.440 they're an infant, they're my baby. And once they're two, they're your baby. And it's like,

00:55:43.880 but she's still a baby. She doesn't need a baby. She's 11, you know, she's 12. And so, and, 0.98

00:55:49.340 and that is something that, you know, like we, we want to be fruitful. We're both, you know,

00:55:54.360 you know, our camps, like we're very much, you know, to think that that's in line with scripture

00:55:58.460 and it's a blessing. Um, but fruitfulness is, um, we, we want to be effective. I like the way

00:56:04.780 your dad puts it, you know, Samuel would not have been benefited in any way to have five sons that

00:56:09.460 took bribes instead of two. So like, you know, we want, uh, yeah, let's have as many arrows as we

00:56:14.760 can, but let's, they need to be sharp and straight because some of these arrows are so bent. They're

00:56:19.240 like boomerangs. You shoot them out and they go all the way back, you know, and then slap the 0.97

00:56:23.220 Christian parent in the face. And like, we don't need to produce, um, uh, enlistments for, for the 0.99

00:56:28.880 enemy. We, we want children that are, um, that are solid. And part of that means that, um, that we're

00:56:33.960 going to be their parents and not their older sibling. So, so anyway, so I, I know, I know

00:56:38.280 your views on that and that's, um, I, I completely agree. Any final thoughts or final words that you

00:56:43.220 want to leave our audience with anything that maybe might be up and coming? I know your life

00:56:46.920 is busy right now. And so you're probably, you know, focusing on the home, which is great,

00:56:50.720 but anything you want to let our listeners know about? Um, man, I can't think of, well,

00:56:56.500 I don't know when this episode is airing. Do you know? Um, usually we, we record, I think we've got

00:57:03.600 one or two in the hopper so i'd say like two weeks okay well then we'll be i was gonna say

00:57:10.080 today was actually the last day of uh the same page summer bible reading challenge and the the

00:57:17.720 to the word through the bible kicks off september 4th so it's gonna be probably be hearing this

00:57:23.660 right after probably uh right after it kicks off either way uh jump in and join us and even if you

00:57:31.480 are an experienced Bible reader. Like I, I always think the reason we started the Bible reading

00:57:38.500 challenge was it was, uh, we had a conference that was a celebration of 500 years since the

00:57:43.500 reformation in 2017. And it was in the conversation around that and things that we were talking about

00:57:50.180 afterwards. Um, there were in that conversation, we, it was a realization that there was another

00:57:58.400 time when the world was so chaotic and so messed up and so uh so tragic how the church was behaving

00:58:07.520 and yet the thing that turned really all of civilization on its head was christians reading

00:58:13.700 the word like it was the word going to christians and uh the realization that that reading the word

00:58:21.360 that the word does not return void but what is it that it does is it is it equips you for every good

00:58:26.600 work, that it trains you in righteousness, that it does all this. I think how many Christians in

00:58:31.040 the world feel fully equipped for the work God has put them in and are feeling like, uh, it's, 0.72

00:58:38.020 it's a funny thing, but if you think about it, this is a specifically to women, this is the

00:58:43.300 thing that I would say, women are very intuitive at encouraging each other about little things

00:58:48.520 that don't matter much, right? Like this is my new purse that someone posts on Facebook and everyone 0.99

00:58:54.060 be like it's so cute oh my goodness where did you get it you know like lots of chit chat like women

00:58:59.100 are very good at that kind of chit chat and in this conference where we talked about a bunch of

00:59:03.980 women from the reformation and the q a it had come up uh and i said something that immediately was

00:59:09.640 like oh my word i just said a thing that i do not like thinking about um which we'd been talking 0.84

00:59:15.720 about all these impressive women of the reformation and someone asked maybe how did they do 0.99

00:59:20.540 it or how were they whatever and my and my comment was i would hope that if katie luther could see 1.00

00:59:27.000 what we did with our lives that she would think i wonder how they ever got all that done like how 1.00

00:59:32.840 did they ever like instead of us acting like peak christian women happened a long time ago and never

00:59:40.760 again will women be really effective or really strong or really faithful like like oh we're all

00:59:47.700 just going to kind of be, and I was thinking, you know, specifically social media is something

00:59:51.980 that I think those women, there was, there's a lot going on, but those women had already given

00:59:58.360 their whole lives to, you know, many of them were nuns in, in those really crazy orders of nuns,

01:00:05.480 where you're like waking yourself up all through the night to pray and stuff. They were already

01:00:11.500 all in for the gospel so when they when they turned from the catholic church to this idea

01:00:18.220 of investing yourselves in your homes and children and like in doing actually actually living your

01:00:25.740 faith out in a way that will impact people around you they had a tremendous impact but it was not

01:00:31.180 because they were superhuman it was because they were because they were all in for the gospel and

01:00:36.940 then they were living as faithful women in that time and and it made me think of like how are we

01:00:42.700 stewarding social media and how would those women think we ought to be stewarding it and right so 1.00

01:00:49.820 that idea of women are very natural at encouraging each other why not encourage each other to be 1.00

01:00:54.700 reading their bibles like why not make it so instead of wow that's cute like i'm so glad 1.00

01:01:00.940 you're reading with us, you know, like welcome, join us, like read the Bible with us. And we've

01:01:07.420 already seen just huge amounts of fruit from that. And I think like Christians really underestimate 1.00

01:01:13.240 the power of the word, the power of getting people into the word, the way it equips people to mature

01:01:18.820 so quickly and, and be equipped to pull people along with them. So that's my biggest plug really

01:01:25.940 is to don't overlook it but consider joining the bible reading challenge awesome get all your

01:01:32.080 friends that sounds great no i love what you said about like katie luther and um you know i've heard

01:01:37.700 it said and i think it's i think it's well put but we are not the lesser sons of former sires

01:01:42.020 and uh whether it's going back to the reformation 500 years ago or 2 000 years ago i mean how many

01:01:47.460 times do christians say man we're going to get back to the early church like i don't want to

01:01:50.880 get back to Corinth I don't want to get back to Corinth you know what I mean and I and like I

01:01:55.360 these you see progressively we got trouble enough as it is don't we right exactly and it's and it's

01:02:01.880 just you know things are getting worse and worse you know and no like there there is incredible

01:02:06.940 things in God's providence that he's gradually and progressively bringing about through the church

01:02:11.200 we're a mess that's true but I'd like to think that we're not quite the mess that that Corinth

01:02:16.780 was, you know, and, and that, that there actually has been progression.

01:02:20.500 And I think there has, our, our theology is sharpened.

01:02:22.860 We, I mean, it took 500 years for people just to understand doctrine of God, you know,

01:02:27.320 and, and, and maybe it's a thousand years for doctrine of God.

01:02:30.380 And then the next thousand years was soteriology.

01:02:32.480 And I don't know, maybe this third millennium, you know, since Christ coming, maybe, maybe 0.65

01:02:37.200 we figure out Christian ethics, you know, maybe we could get like some decent Christian

01:02:40.620 politics in the mix.

01:02:41.520 But the point is we're not the lesser sons of former sires and getting in the word.

01:02:45.700 you're right that we shouldn't look at some of these heroes they are heroes worthy of our honor

01:02:50.340 they're spiritual fathers and mothers that deserve to be honored but we are not their um we're not

01:02:56.860 their bastard children like we like we by god's grace we can do it don't need to be and we don't

01:03:02.940 need to be acting like that and i think it's really common for everyone to want to hunker down 0.99

01:03:08.720 instead of saying like yeah things are really dark out right now but this is actually the time

01:03:15.000 that God chose to put us. And what are we doing? I often, I've told people this, I feel like when

01:03:23.220 you're born, it's like a rock was thrown into a pond and your life is so short. It's just that

01:03:29.000 time in the air before you hit the water and you're through to the other side, you know, before

01:03:33.840 like there's only so much time up here. And often I'm thinking about Lord, make it, make it bigger

01:03:40.720 and splashier like while we're flying through the air how can we have more and more of an impact

01:03:47.000 like how can uh how can you use us more and more as much as we can that just goes back to the

01:03:54.300 self-preservation thing again because it is just deciding that you want it well deciding by god's

01:04:00.320 grace right we're all in for the gospel we're all in where he planted us right now we're all in with

01:04:07.080 You know, when you read some piece of scripture that confronts your own sin, we're all in with repenting and getting it right and trying to do what honors God.

01:04:17.360 And that there's a it's like there's a ton of fun and joy in that whole in that process.

01:04:25.120 But it is but it is for sure.

01:04:27.860 Maybe I would say not for the faint of heart.

01:04:29.580 It's for sure the like, OK, let's let's just take it from God that this is what we're for.

01:04:36.140 and how much can we throw ourselves into that,

01:04:39.860 to what he has called us to.

01:04:41.600 Amen.

01:04:42.140 Rachel, thanks for coming on the show.

01:04:44.220 Yeah, my pleasure.

01:04:45.280 Thanks for having me.

The NXR Podcast - September 12, 2023

THEOLOGY APPLIED - Women’s Ministry Done Properly ｜ Patriarchy Vs. Complementarianism w Rachel Jankovic

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript