The Peter Attia Drive - #08 - Tom Bilyeu： nutrition, fasting, meditation, mindset, immortality, and the secret formula of fulfillment

00:00:00.000 Hey everyone, welcome to the Peter Atiyah Drive. I'm your host, Peter Atiyah.

00:00:10.160 The Drive is a result of my hunger for optimizing performance, health, longevity, critical thinking,

00:00:15.600 along with a few other obsessions along the way. I've spent the last several years working with

00:00:19.840 some of the most successful, top-performing individuals in the world, and this podcast

00:00:23.620 is my attempt to synthesize what I've learned along the way to help you live a higher quality,

00:00:28.360 more fulfilling life. If you enjoy this podcast, you can find more information on today's episode

00:00:33.000 and other topics at peteratiyahmd.com.

00:00:41.400 In this episode, I interview my friend Tom Bilyeu. Tom is the co-founder of Quest Nutrition. Many of

00:00:48.260 you have undoubtedly heard of this. They make, obviously, Quest Bars and a number of other

00:00:52.080 products, but I think Quest Bars are sort of what put them on the map and keeps them on the map.

00:00:55.760 Tom is one of three co-founders, and I know two of the three quite well, including Tom. He's also

00:01:01.500 the host of something called Impact Theory, which actually we spend quite a bit of time talking about.

00:01:06.160 I knew a lot less about Impact Theory and his work there than I knew about Quest. Now, his mission in

00:01:11.440 creating this was to create this sort of idea of what he calls an empowering media-based platform for

00:01:17.020 accelerating mission-based businesses. Tom is incredibly driven, and I think that comes across

00:01:22.800 in this discussion. I've sometimes been accused of being a little too hyper, but when I'm around Tom,

00:01:29.340 I actually sort of feel like I'm on Quaaludes or something, given how much he's just sort of

00:01:34.880 salivating and just so passionately jumping out of his seat to basically tell you about something that

00:01:42.360 is generally really interesting and really, really helpful. He's just a completely driven mission

00:01:49.300 guy, and I learned a lot about Tom on this episode that I didn't know. I've known Tom for probably

00:01:54.480 five years, maybe six years, but one thing I didn't know was that in the history of Quest,

00:01:59.780 he basically interviewed virtually every person that was hired, and this is a behemoth company,

00:02:05.240 and I'm not just saying that he was interviewing people who were applying for jobs in the C-suite.

00:02:09.340 I mean, if you were applying for a job on the production line, Tom wanted to interview you,

00:02:15.220 and he would always ask people the same sorts of questions, and there was one question in particular

00:02:19.740 that he asked everybody. I was actually kind of surprised by the answer, but in this sense,

00:02:24.060 his time at Quest became a little bit of a laboratory for what he ended up doing later on,

00:02:28.560 and really what he's doing today and where I think he's going. So in this episode, we're going to talk

00:02:32.700 a lot about Tom's history with dieting and how he changed his views on fat and fasting, and he had

00:02:38.460 quite a radical transformation there. His quest for immortality, which if you've ever heard me talk on this

00:02:43.580 subject, I'm not convinced that that's desirable or plausible, but I certainly love hearing about

00:02:48.440 others talk about it. His background and what led to the co-founding of Quest, probably one of my

00:02:52.960 favorite stories because it really speaks to following your bliss versus following the dollars,

00:02:58.420 which I think many great entrepreneurs will tell you is their secret. What he describes as a growth

00:03:03.640 versus fixed mindset, I think this is a really important concept, and I think it is worth paying

00:03:08.160 attention to that. Why he would interview everyone he talked to or hired at Quest, and again,

00:03:12.860 I was surprised by that. That was a completely new fact. We talk about why he started Impact Theory,

00:03:18.040 and we talk about what fulfillment means to Tom. Now, you'll be able to find a lot more information

00:03:22.080 about Tom and some of the things that we talk about on this show inside the show notes,

00:03:26.800 which will be at peteratiamd.com forward slash podcast. So without further delay,

00:03:31.300 here is my discussion with my friend, Tom Bilyeu.

00:03:37.860 Tom. Yes. Thank you so much for inviting me to your lovely place.

00:03:42.220 My pleasure, man. I have wanted to get you on my show forever, so I am excited.

00:03:46.880 I know. I feel like a real kind of jerk because you've been asking me for so long,

00:03:50.820 and I've been saying, yep, yep, yep. And then I pulled the bait and switch and got you on my...

00:03:54.300 That's good. That's good.

00:03:55.440 I promise you, if you still want me, I'm yours.

00:03:57.940 Oh, dude. In a heartbeat. It would be amazing.

00:04:01.420 Well, just before we started, I met your wife for the very first time.

00:04:04.340 Which I'm shocked by. I still can't believe we've known each other this long,

00:04:07.660 and you've never met my wife. That's crazy.

00:04:08.800 And that's what prompted me to remember that it was about five years ago that Dom D'Agostino and I

00:04:14.760 came up to meet with, I think at the time, just you and Ron.

00:04:18.360 Well, the first meeting, I think, was even with just Ron. I remember coming back and he was like,

00:04:22.620 oh, we're into fat now. And I was like, that just seems crazy. Because at the point,

00:04:27.180 I was truly, truly rabbit starvation and had had massive success with it. And I did that because

00:04:32.720 I was legitimately fat phobic. I was one of those dumb asses that was like, well, it's fat, dude.

00:04:39.020 Obviously, it makes you fat. But that was me. I already had a nutrition company at that point.

00:04:42.900 That's the crazy part. So when I came back and I remember where I was and he was like, oh,

00:04:47.380 yeah, we met with this guy, Peter Attia, Dom D'Agostino, and they really made me believe in

00:04:51.900 fat. And I just thought, whoa, like what a strange new world I've walked into. And then it ended up

00:04:56.660 changing my life. It's interesting because I've heard Ron say that many times. I've never heard

00:05:01.700 you say what you just said, but I've seen video clips of Ron talking about this. And I can't believe

00:05:09.080 that the meeting that Dom and I had with you guys could have had such an impact on a company that

00:05:14.780 was already on quite a trajectory. Yeah. When you seek out disconfirming evidence,

00:05:19.700 like when you actually want to know how you're wrong and you meet somebody that is really a smart

00:05:25.820 and be just so well-educated on a particular topic, it's like a fireworks moment. You long for those

00:05:31.460 things because it's like, look, my suboptimal life has gotten me this far. Like I've already achieved all

00:05:35.900 of this living like a fool in some way that I'm as of yet unaware of. If I can become aware of that

00:05:42.420 thing and then make different choices, then can my life be different? So the reason that it had

00:05:47.180 such a big effect is because that's how we look at the world. It's like, I want to know how I'm

00:05:51.660 wrong. I want to know in what ways I'm suboptimal. And so you guys coming in and making such a compelling

00:05:57.840 case for fat, I ended up trying it really soon after you guys came because the thing for me,

00:06:03.520 and I'm actually super curious to get your beat on where this is still, but at the time you guys are

00:06:08.320 saying, look, there might be some anti-cancer properties. And so I am obsessed, dude. I don't

00:06:12.260 know if we've ever talked about this. I'm obsessed legitimately with living forever. And what's the

00:06:17.160 Woody Allen quote? I want to live forever by not dying, not by having my works to go on. So I really,

00:06:22.880 truly want to live forever. That's something that's captured my imagination since I was a little kid.

00:06:26.580 So when you guys were talking about anti-cancer properties, I said, all right, I got to give this a

00:06:30.260 shot. And I did it and I hated it in ways you can't imagine. I was doing a four to one. I was in

00:06:35.300 therapeutic range. So my ketone bodies were North of three and my glucose levels were like low sixties,

00:06:42.360 if I remember right. And I felt so sick, like it was crazy. And I was warned, Hey, there's a saying

00:06:48.460 called the keto flu. So when it was happening, I was like, well, here, Hey, found it. And I just

00:06:54.000 thought I just need to get through, you know, I forget how long I was staying therapeutic, but like,

00:06:58.080 let's call it five days. I'm going to stay in the therapeutic range for five days. It's total misery,

00:07:02.580 but like, I can gut it out. And I made it through. And I was like, I'm never doing that again. It was

00:07:07.480 so miserable. But in that time I went from chronic wrist pain. I'd been icing my wrists up to two times

00:07:15.380 a day, every day for 15 years. And I had like these little burn patches on my wrist from where

00:07:22.140 the ice touched. Cause I was just icing so frequently. It was crazy. And that was like to just get through

00:07:26.020 the day, but I had lost all this weight, dude. So I was 230 pounds. I go on a rabbit starvation diet,

00:07:30.940 which I'll define as ultra high protein, probably North of 80% of my calories were protein.

00:07:36.160 And then just as little fat and as little carbohydrate as I could possibly intake.

00:07:41.880 So I was doing basically a lot of steamed chicken breast with nothing but salt on it.

00:07:48.000 And that was it. And I would eat basically, I don't know. I was probably, I would oscillate between

00:07:52.560 1200 and 1500 calories a day. And I did this for roughly two years. And I went from 230 to about

00:07:59.000 170 and lost 60 pounds and it was pure insanity. And I looked so good, dude. I was shredded best

00:08:06.680 optical shape of my life. And I just wanted to stare at my abs all day. It was amazing. So

00:08:12.500 I'm walking into this whole fat thing with that, right? Like 50 cent said, I came into the game

00:08:16.660 humble. Can't nobody tell me shit now. It's like, when I got lean, I was like, I've got this figured

00:08:20.580 out. Like there's nothing left. And I just, I thought I had it dialed in, knew what to do.

00:08:25.820 And never once did it occur to me that that was making my wrist 10 times worse. And so when you

00:08:32.840 guys came and said, Hey, anti-cancer properties, I do it. I hate it. But in the middle of all that,

00:08:36.840 I realized my wrists don't feel better. They feel perfect. And I remember coming into work going,

00:08:41.460 this is the worst experience of my life. It is so unpleasurable to be in therapeutic range,

00:08:46.600 ketosis, not knowing how to supplement, but guys, it is like a drug like effect on my wrist. I've never,

00:08:51.840 this is crazy. And it's just eating. So I said, I'm never taking fat out of my diet again. I was

00:08:57.900 like, there's clearly was something to sell membranes, anti-inflammatory. Like there were

00:09:02.580 all kinds of things about the importance of fat that I just wasn't appreciating. And now I'm

00:09:06.820 experiencing it. So from that moment, whatever that was back in 2013, I've been now some variation of

00:09:12.800 high fat, low carb or true ketogenic. And when you were at two 30, that was a relatively fit two 30.

00:09:19.860 Oh, uh, I was working out hard. I was strong as an ox. I would have had no stamina. I wasn't doing

00:09:27.320 any cardio. It was purely about strength. So like, it wouldn't be something that would impress me today.

00:09:35.200 And when I see pictures of myself back then, I'm like a little grossed out. Cause it's like,

00:09:38.920 I got so myopically focused on getting bigger that I didn't realize how much of it was fat and

00:09:44.380 really went through a bit of big erexia during that phase where it was literally, if I saw food,

00:09:48.960 I ate it. I just, I'd never wanted to miss out on like anything conceivably anabolic.

00:09:53.100 I was all about it. And then I'd put a similar amount of obsession to losing the fat. And so

00:09:57.500 then I lost a ton of muscle and so wasn't nearly as strong anymore, but I looked awesome. So I went

00:10:02.840 from thinking only about strength to thinking only about aesthetics. And now I think about performance

00:10:07.660 and it's, it's just changed everything. So you said something a second ago, which is pretty

00:10:11.040 interesting. And I'll pose to you a thought experiment. So you said you want to live forever.

00:10:15.080 Now, what if I said to you, Tom, it is your lucky day because once in my life, I get to bestow on one

00:10:25.060 individual immortality and I offered it to you here right now. Would you take it?

00:10:31.000 Yes. Without question.

00:10:32.360 All right. Now you have kids?

00:10:33.880 No.

00:10:34.960 But you're married.

00:10:35.760 I am married.

00:10:36.180 You're a lovely wife.

00:10:36.720 Yep.

00:10:37.040 You have, you have wonderful friends.

00:10:38.640 Definitely. And they're all going to die.

00:10:40.380 That's right. Would you still want to live forever knowing that everyone you know is going to die?

00:10:45.480 Definitively. And that to me is such a psychological trap that you of all people,

00:10:49.820 you have kids. So I'll, if I granted you your children, not your spouse, just your kids,

00:10:56.220 would you want to do it?

00:10:57.140 It's a very interesting question because, so the short answer is I don't know the answer.

00:11:00.960 I'm not convinced it's achievable. So I don't put a lot of time in thinking about something that I

00:11:04.720 don't think is achievable, though. Maybe you'll talk me into thinking it is achievable. I take a

00:11:09.720 little bit of a Jobsian approach on this, which is there is something reasonable about death in that

00:11:15.420 it's just closing the loop on the carbon cycle and it forces a little bit of urgency. There's a

00:11:20.600 sense of you have to get something done. Now, that said, I hate the thought of saying goodbye

00:11:26.940 to life. I mean, I hate the thought of, so I'm 45. Let's assume I've got 50 more years left on this

00:11:34.700 planet. I know how fast the last 30 went by. Like I remember being 15 like it was yesterday. And I

00:11:43.500 know that the next 30 and the next 40 will feel quicker because they will occupy a smaller percentage

00:11:49.080 of my relative timeline. So I realized that very soon I will die. So when I think of it that way,

00:11:54.920 I thank God, I just want one more year, one more year, one more year. But do I really want it to

00:11:58.560 be a mortality? Would I ever want to bury my children when they were old? No, you won't want

00:12:02.540 to bury your children, right? So that, and this is the legacy fallacy trap for me. So people talk a lot

00:12:09.140 about legacy. So I've decided not to have kids, right? So people are like, oh my God, but what about

00:12:13.660 when you're older and on your deathbed, you're going to work so much? Won't you think I wish I had spent my

00:12:17.760 time differently? And the answer is, of course, of course, every time you change your phase in life,

00:12:24.920 your point of reference is now that phase. And so on your deathbed, you will instinctively see your

00:12:32.320 life completely differently. But my thing is, why'd you live your life the way that you did? Because

00:12:36.780 in that phase of your life, that was the only way to live that made sense. So even if you're acting

00:12:41.560 out of fear, you're in the middle of the fear. So the fear makes sense. So everything that you're

00:12:45.120 doing has a logical movement to it. And so to live your life out of sync with where you're at in that

00:12:51.940 moment to try to hit a target, which is to feel good on your deathbed, to me is crazy. Because

00:12:59.020 what that presupposes is that all along, your experience of life was awesome because you were

00:13:05.620 living for that moment on your deathbed. My thing is optimize for the moment you're in now. I'll

00:13:10.060 optimize for my deathbed when I'm on my deathbed. And I will try to do all the things that make being

00:13:13.860 on a deathbed as acceptable as possible, or maybe even as beautiful as possible to suddenly recognize

00:13:19.860 the imminent death that is upon me. And the transience becomes the beautiful thing that I

00:13:24.340 railed against for so long. But I know that I will have the frame of mind to find the beauty in it.

00:13:29.960 I won't spend a lot of time lashing myself for all, oh God, I wish I'd done that differently. Or

00:13:34.420 now with this frame of mind, I can see things so clearly. I should have had kids. But right now in

00:13:38.720 this moment, I fucking love my life. And so this morning, after two hours of sleep, I couldn't fall

00:13:46.060 back asleep because I was so fucking excited to get up and keep working on a project. Now I forced

00:13:51.160 myself to go to bed because I knew that after two hours, midday, I'm just going to crash. But that's

00:13:57.380 the level of excitement I have for the things that I'm doing that I call work. So if you can build that

00:14:02.320 into your life, then you're going to be okay. And here's how I think of kids. I want kids, dude. I

00:14:06.600 really want kids. Would you take one of mine? If they're amazing? Absolutely. And if somebody tells me

00:14:11.960 you've raised them well, so you've gotten past a lot of the hard stuff, I would. The only thing I

00:14:16.100 want more than I want kids is to not have kids. So it isn't one is undesirable and the other desirable.

00:14:22.640 It is that they are two very desirable things. And by a slim margin, one wins out. So what I think

00:14:28.060 people need to focus on is construct your life around things that give you energy and fill you

00:14:31.880 with joy, like a deep sense of fulfillment. That's why I think a lot of people actually made the right

00:14:36.260 decision to have kids. Kids to me from the outside seem like pretty instant biological

00:14:41.600 fulfillment. You have a kid and there's a feeling that you get about having that child. You just

00:14:46.560 can't manufacture any other way. And that's beautiful. And for people that either just want

00:14:53.700 that kind of fulfillment or don't find fulfillment in anything else, kids seem like a really good plan.

00:14:59.120 But for me, I just found that I could build fulfillment into doing other things. And it was

00:15:04.020 incredibly gratifying. And I had big brothered for a long time. And that informed a lot of my decisions

00:15:08.820 about the realities of the day to day of having a kid. It's amazing, but it's such a time consuming

00:15:15.960 endeavor. Yeah. Sometimes I, I realize I don't remember what it was like not to have kids.

00:15:21.240 I think it's great when people like you can articulate that, Hey, like not everybody has

00:15:25.900 to do this thing. It's interesting that it's almost something people have to opt out of instead

00:15:30.680 of opt into it's, it's sort of like become a default thing. Like you're sort of, you know,

00:15:34.400 if you don't have kids, like people are looking at you like, why don't you have kids? And,

00:15:38.540 but I think I understand what you're saying for sure. Now going back to the other question

00:15:42.420 about immortality. So you obviously have a great sense of urgency and purpose about what you do.

00:15:49.340 And again, I don't want to spend too much time on theoretical fun questions, but do you worry that

00:15:54.300 if you knew you could live forever, some of that urgency would go away? Not even a little bit.

00:15:59.460 So there's a book I read, dude, read this book. It's called Einstein's dreams. And in that book,

00:16:05.700 it's a bunch of short stories that explore the nature of time. And one of the explorations is a

00:16:11.860 planet where everyone lives forever. And the world just breaks into two camps. Naturally,

00:16:16.880 you've got people that do nothing because there was always time to do it tomorrow. There was no sense

00:16:21.440 of urgency whatsoever. And then you have this other camp of people that do everything because they

00:16:25.960 know I can actually stack all of these passions on each other. And that's sequentially one by one,

00:16:30.620 I can get extraordinary at everything I've ever wanted to be extraordinary about.

00:16:34.900 And when I read this as like a 12 year old, I was like, Oh my God, that is so me. Like I knew to the

00:16:40.820 like visceral core of my being that that's how I would be given that opportunity. And then I was given

00:16:47.140 that opportunity, at least in the financial sphere of, you know, Hey, what would I do if I never had to

00:16:51.600 work again? And what would my life look like? Would I, would I be one of those people that just,

00:16:55.340 you know, buys an Island, retire, sit my ties, or would I really go hard? And to me, the answer

00:17:00.680 was so evident. Like when I finally had the money, the resources to do whatever I wanted,

00:17:06.100 knowing I would never have to work again, ever. Even if I lived for 200 years, I started moving

00:17:12.180 faster because now I could do more of the things that I wanted to. I could delegate more. I could

00:17:16.780 solve some problems just by throwing money at it. And so did I earn that state of being, which I like to

00:17:22.840 think I earn all of the things about myself that I value, but maybe I didn't earn it. And maybe that's

00:17:28.120 why at 12, it resonated so hard with me was just, I'm not one of those guys. That's like, Oh man,

00:17:33.920 I don't know what I want from life. And there's nothing I'm passionate about. Like there's so many

00:17:37.760 things I'm passionate about, let alone just really interested in, let alone fascinated by.

00:17:42.440 So for me, the, the battle is eternally, I don't have enough time and encountering things

00:17:48.680 that you really love doing that really, really truly you're just excited and it doesn't matter.

00:17:54.020 Like I'll give you an example. So impact theory, my new company, we're a narrative company. We tell

00:17:59.260 stories. And one of the stories that we're about to put out, it's a comic book. I'm so into writing

00:18:04.820 this book and to telling this story and the world cup is on and the team that I support because

00:18:11.220 America didn't qualify is England. They were playing today and the game's going. Everybody here is

00:18:16.400 having a great time. And I stepped out to go work on the comic. And so I'm choosing between these two

00:18:21.800 things, both, which fill me with joy and passion and was so much fun. And I thought, this is a good

00:18:26.300 sign when the thing that's technically work, that is moving me towards a business objective is so much

00:18:31.740 fun that I actually, ah, find myself like pulling away from this truly just a celebration and a game

00:18:38.040 to go work on that thing. So structuring my life around things like that, make it very easy for me to

00:18:44.560 say definitively, if I could live forever, I would live forever.

00:18:47.400 Now it wasn't always rosy, right? I mean, I think I've heard a little bit about how Quest got started

00:18:53.340 and what you guys were doing before and how you guys all knew each other, but what were you doing

00:18:57.760 before Quest and what brought you, you, Ron and Mike together?

00:19:01.160 Yeah, it depends on how far back you go. So I went to USC film school, was studying film. That was going

00:19:06.020 to be my shtick. And I had cheated all the way through high school. I believe that was smart, but I

00:19:10.440 didn't really have anything to back that up. My own mother, when I left for college, she finally

00:19:15.100 admitted this years later, when I left for college, she just quietly assumed I was going to fail

00:19:18.480 because I didn't show any signs of like being the guy I promised myself. When I went to college,

00:19:24.080 I would never cheat again. Cause I thought this I'm studying now what I actually care about.

00:19:27.040 I'm taking on tens of thousands of dollars of debt. It just doesn't make sense to cheat.

00:19:30.820 So literally as an incoming freshman, I said, ARF sink or swim, I'm going to do all my own work.

00:19:35.100 And it's just going to be what it's going to be because I need to actually learn this.

00:19:38.440 And so go there. My SATs are a nine 90. I took it twice. So like you can imagine,

00:19:43.060 I'm like barely getting into school. The film school wanted a 1300. I didn't have it. I go to

00:19:47.900 the admissions committee. I'm like, what do I need to do to get in? They say, look, SAT just tells us

00:19:51.700 how you're supposed to do in school. So if you apply as an incoming junior, we're just going to

00:19:55.980 look at your transcripts and we don't care about your SAT. So I thought, okay, cool. For the next two

00:19:59.900 years, I have to get good grades. So I didn't date. I didn't drink. I didn't party. Nothing meant dude.

00:20:04.700 All I did was work and I got extraordinary grades. And I think probably about the time that I applied

00:20:10.660 for film school, again, I had a 4.0. I mean, it was just absolutely murdering it. Remember no

00:20:14.060 cheating, nothing, just all me fucking hard-ass work. And I get into film school and I start

00:20:18.260 crushing it and I'm doing great. And I'm like, oh my God, I'm the man. Like I am so talented. This is

00:20:23.080 crazy. And you know, my dad's telling me I'm talented. Like, and I get to film school and I'm

00:20:28.380 just proving it. Everyone's like, you're never going to get into film school. I got in and only four

00:20:33.160 people in your entire class get to direct a senior thesis film. And I was chosen. And I was like,

00:20:38.520 dude, this is my life. I'm going to graduate with a three picture deal. I'm going to be the next

00:20:42.480 Spielberg. This is insane. Like it's all working exactly as I planned. And then my senior thesis

00:20:48.240 film, I fucked up so badly that I stole the master because it was that embarrassing. And people were

00:20:54.860 cutting clips of my film together into like these joke reels to make fun of it, to make fun of me.

00:20:59.100 And it was emotionally devastating because I realized the truth. And I'm not saying this to

00:21:05.160 be humble. The truth was I didn't have talent. And that film made it abundantly clear. I didn't

00:21:10.540 know what I was doing as in way over my head. And finally, this film was just elaborate enough to

00:21:15.020 expose that. I actually didn't know how to tell a story. And that was crushing because I had a fixed

00:21:18.940 mindset. So I believe that you're either naturally talented or you're not. To me, filmmaking was like

00:21:23.480 singing. Either you can sing or you can't. And all the training in the world is only going to refine

00:21:27.240 whatever talent you already have. So I was like, wow, well, I guess this is it. I'm not talented.

00:21:31.540 I crashed and burned. I am now flirting with depression. I've graduated. My parents aren't

00:21:35.680 helping me financially. I'm taking remedial jobs. And it was just like, and it was the period of my

00:21:40.260 life. I call the king of remedial jobs period where I would only interview for jobs that I thought I

00:21:45.600 would be smarter than the person interviewing me because I needed to feel smart. And I just believe my

00:21:50.200 talent intelligence were fixed traits and life is about making the most of them. So I never wanted to be

00:21:54.300 in a situation that made me feel badly about myself. And so that puts you in stupid places.

00:21:58.460 So I'm a college graduate selling video games, retail. That was my life. And then I got a phone

00:22:04.700 call and somebody was like, Hey, you should come teach filmmaking. We need some people to help.

00:22:08.100 And I went and taught and through teaching and I'm truncating the story, but there was a lot of

00:22:11.800 suffering in this part that I'm skipping over, but I ended up teaching filmmaking and realize, well,

00:22:16.600 I'm actually able to help make their films better. And if I can help them make their films better,

00:22:21.100 why can't I learn and make my own films better? And so that became the seeds that would ultimately

00:22:26.020 grow into a growth mindset. But at the time I didn't have those words. I had some Tony Robbins.

00:22:30.040 I was clinging to that for dear life. And the thing that really changed my life was, I don't know if

00:22:33.980 you remember this, this would have been back in like 99 people really debating brain plasticity.

00:22:40.120 And one side was like, it's total bullshit. Your brain done capped out 12, 13, somewhere around there.

00:22:45.280 It starts a pruning process after that. You're not going to learn anything major new.

00:22:48.240 So I was like, Oh God, that would be dire. And then the other side was like, no, no,

00:22:52.020 no new science is coming out. Guys, I'm telling you the brain's plastic. You can learn anything

00:22:55.200 at any age. And I said, all right, I'm going to make a decision. I choose to believe

00:22:58.420 that the camp that's saying that you can change is right. And so I started reading and reading and

00:23:04.000 reading about the brain voraciously to try to understand how it could change, what I needed to

00:23:09.320 do, what the process of getting better at something, what the neurological process of that was,

00:23:14.020 like what are synaptic connections? How does the myelination process work? So,

00:23:17.560 and all of that stuff filled me with so much excitement that I could change. So, okay,

00:23:22.080 I suck today. I don't have to suck tomorrow. I can just pour myself into this and get better

00:23:26.540 and push and work. And so that's what I started doing right about that time. I encountered these

00:23:32.120 two bodybuilder meathead guys. And of course, immediately write them off as like a bodybuilders

00:23:38.680 are dumb. And then they opened their mouths and I was like, Jesus, these guys are smart, man.

00:23:43.760 And they were like, look, we're starting a new technology company and we need a copywriter.

00:23:49.880 And I was like, well, you know, Hey, that sounds amazing. Cause their pitch to me was dude, look,

00:23:54.120 you're coming to the film industry with your handout. You need to get rich, control the resources,

00:23:58.500 and then you can make films the way you want to make. And I'm, you know, whatever, 23, 24.

00:24:02.440 And so I'm like, that sounds amazing. Let's do that. And so they thought it would take about 18

00:24:06.700 months. I was going to go help them build this technology company. They were going to sell it.

00:24:10.720 And then I would have the money I needed to make films. And of course it doesn't play out that way.

00:24:14.860 And I go into first an amazing period where I'm learning to be an entrepreneur in a startup

00:24:19.480 environment in an ultra grueling, like, Hey, don't be a fucking idiot. Get it done. Kind of move faster

00:24:25.240 like that kind of doggy dog environment. But I ended up thriving in that and really getting strong,

00:24:30.160 which is I needed to toughen up. I'm just going to be really honest. And it was exactly what I

00:24:34.960 needed at exactly the right time. I believed I could change and grow. And I met guys that held

00:24:38.980 me to a high ass standard and push themselves and wanted to grow and get better. And they knew a lot

00:24:43.580 about business. And so they just brought me into this pressure cooker environment and made a very

00:24:49.260 similar offer to dozens of people. And they said, look, this is a startup. You can have any job in the

00:24:54.340 company you want. You just have to become the right person for the job. Now, for me, it was all about

00:24:57.900 fighting to become a filmmaker. I just needed that money. So I went hard, hard and just fought and

00:25:03.380 clawed my way up and, and ultimately was the only ones left standing. And what did that company do

00:25:08.520 specifically? Awareness technologies made data loss prevention software. So if you had a company and

00:25:13.300 this is all timing, right? So this is the early two thousands. So it was like, you have a company

00:25:17.480 and you're worried your employees are taking HIPAA data out because you're healthcare, or you're

00:25:22.000 worried that they're taking customer data out because the credit cards are still sort of the wild,

00:25:26.240 wild West at this point. And people could just pop in a USB and take it out, or they could email it

00:25:29.980 out. So we made software that would allow you to say, okay, if it has, you know, this type of

00:25:35.700 information, credit card data, whatever, flag it and don't let the attachment leave, not via USB port,

00:25:40.860 not via email or whatever. And I assume you're talking about Ron and Mike. This is, yeah, yeah,

00:25:44.500 yeah. So you guys exit this company when?

00:25:48.240 So that we started wrapping up around 2009. So in 2010, we launched quest 2009. We bring on a new CEO

00:25:58.020 who bought the company and it was sort of a staggered exit. So he and I, the new CEO and I

00:26:05.080 didn't see eye to eye. He didn't think I was very good at marketing. And I thought he just didn't

00:26:08.540 understand marketing. So I said, look, I'm going to go start our next company, which we actually

00:26:12.760 offered him a percentage in, because we didn't want him to sweat us working on it in the background.

00:26:16.300 And he turned it down. Whoops. And so he goes on this firing binge, fires a bunch of people.

00:26:22.060 And I said, you know, I think there's one more person we need to fire. And he's like, who's that?

00:26:25.640 And I said, me. And he was like, okay, why? And I said, I don't, we don't see eye to eye. You think

00:26:29.900 marketing is spreadsheets. I think it's storytelling. So we've got this new company that we told you about,

00:26:35.060 and I want to go be the first full-time employee. And so I was respectful and phased myself out and made

00:26:41.100 sure that they were standing. But he agreed to let me go and let me out of my contract. Mike and Ron

00:26:46.120 stayed behind on contract for, again, it was staggered. But for a year, I was operationally

00:26:51.180 on my own building the company up. And that's how I exited that. And then they finally exited.

00:26:56.040 It was like a year later for, I think Ron came first and then another six months and Mike was there.

00:27:01.520 What was the impetus for starting Quest? What itch were you guys scratching?

00:27:04.700 So I can only speak for myself on this one. And I'll say that when we were building awareness

00:27:11.320 technologies in the beginning, it was learning so much about being an entrepreneur. It was insanely

00:27:17.140 empowering. And it was just giving to me, giving to me, giving to me. And then I sort of was hating

00:27:23.260 what I was doing so much that whatever knowledge I was gaining, I was still being eroded. And I used

00:27:29.400 to tell my wife, it's chipping away at me. Like I'm just not having fun. Like this is so miserable.

00:27:33.960 And so it was taking more energy than it was giving. So it's getting drained every day. I never wanted to

00:27:38.200 talk to my wife about what I did. So I'd come home. She'd be like, what are we up to today?

00:27:41.360 And I'm like, I don't want to talk about it. Like I just didn't want to think about it anymore. It

00:27:44.840 was just soul sucking because I didn't care about the product. There was no us in the product. Like

00:27:50.040 we were just trying to make something. We used to joke. It was a company that was born to be sold

00:27:53.140 into slavery. Like we just wanted to get rid of it. Like from the jump, it was never something that

00:27:57.460 we believed in. We actually did VC pitches where we said, don't worry, you guys can get rid of us.

00:28:02.920 We don't care. We don't have an ego about this. Like this. And I quote, this company was meant to be

00:28:07.940 sold into slavery. We actually said those words multiple times, not realizing to a VC that makes

00:28:13.200 you sound like an asshole who just wants to get out of the company. I'm not going to trust you with

00:28:16.460 my money wisely. So, so just couldn't get it for a long time. Couldn't get any money raised. So

00:28:22.140 anyway, it's robbing for me. And I'm by this point, they've given me 10% ownership in the company.

00:28:26.380 The company is worth like 22 million at its height. So I'm like, I'm a multimillionaire on paper.

00:28:31.060 And I'm just like, I'm so unhappy. I'm living the cliche of money can't buy happiness.

00:28:35.100 So I go to my wife and I said, look, I know I promised that I would make you rich and I'm

00:28:38.680 going to, but I'm going to need to go backwards for a minute so we can go forward. And I said,

00:28:43.040 I need to do something that makes me feel alive. Like I just can't keep doing this. It's so

00:28:46.980 miserable. And so she was like, yeah, I haven't seen you this unhappy in a long time. Like do

00:28:50.560 whatever you need to do. So I went in and quit. And now in the story, it sounds kind of cool

00:28:55.440 because of how it ends up working out. But at the time I was ashamed because I was like,

00:28:58.800 I just can't do this anymore. I'm so unhappy. And I had told them anything within my code

00:29:03.080 of ethics I will do to build this company period. And I realized it's just not true.

00:29:06.920 Like when it's stealing my life from me, it wasn't worth it anymore. So I went in, I said,

00:29:11.700 guys, here's your equity back. I'm not going to cross the finish line. I don't want to get

00:29:14.360 anything for this. You could sell the company tomorrow for a billion dollars. You will never

00:29:18.220 hear from me of sound mind and body. I am walking away from this and I'm leaving you in the lurch.

00:29:23.600 And that's exactly how it feels to me. And so they were stunned and taken aback. And I drove home

00:29:27.940 and I'm literally pulling into the driveway. I'm on the phone with my wife. I did it.

00:29:31.220 The hard part, the two guys who I love, they are my brothers. And I just said, I'm leaving.

00:29:36.020 And the phone rings and it's them. And I'm like, uh, hold on one second. Let me take this.

00:29:41.300 And I click over and they're like, come out to dinner with us. I go out to dinner and they're

00:29:45.240 like, look, you caught us by surprise. The reality is we could do this without you, but we don't want

00:29:50.840 to. And that let me connect to something other than the money up until that point. It had just been

00:29:55.400 like, we're doing this for the money, for the money, for the money. I'm going to make money.

00:29:58.280 I'm going to get rich. I'm going to go make movies. And then it was the thing I really care

00:30:02.280 about in this. I care about the brotherhood. I care about the camaraderie. I want to build

00:30:05.660 something of value. I want to build something I'm passionate about. And so I'd already done

00:30:09.660 the hard part. I'd already quit. So I was like, if you guys want to work with me, then it would

00:30:13.300 have to be fundamentally different. It'd have to be a different company. We'd have to be building

00:30:16.620 something we care about, something we're passionate about, something that the mother Teresa

00:30:20.780 quote, or at least it's attributed to her. No one will act for the many, but people will act

00:30:24.360 for the one. So I was like, I can show up every day thinking about my mom and my sister

00:30:27.700 who are morbidly obese, and they're going to die far too soon if we can't solve this problem.

00:30:31.820 Because Ron was like a nutritional freak at this point. And he was just into it. And he'd

00:30:35.720 helped me transform my physique. This is like in the middle of me losing all the weight. And

00:30:39.240 I think I got it figured out. And I thought, whoa, with what he knows about human metabolism

00:30:44.940 and nutrition and my passion for marketing, and I've got this whole new vision that's going

00:30:50.140 to leverage this thing that's is now called social media, but wasn't called that back

00:30:53.820 then. And I just saw this vision fucking your boy, Tim Ferriss, who I read his book and he

00:31:00.080 introduced me to Kevin Kelly's notion of a thousand true fans. So I became obsessed with

00:31:04.240 this notion of a thousand true fans. I'm going to find a thousand true fans. And I stopped reading

00:31:07.900 email. Thank you again, Timothy Ferriss for that one. I haven't read email in any meaningful

00:31:12.520 way since that book. And so I was like, I'm going to go off. I'm going to market this way.

00:31:17.380 I pulled Mike and Ron into a conference room. I gave him this whole pitch. It's easier just

00:31:21.060 to explain the way I'd say it. Now these weren't the words I was using back then because we didn't

00:31:24.720 have these words, but guys, look, social media is going to change everything. It's going to

00:31:28.580 allow people to build community. All it is, is a megaphone. If you give people a reason to

00:31:32.980 say something good, they'll say something good. And if you give them a reason to say something

00:31:35.980 bad, they will say something bad. But if we can build a company around value creation,

00:31:40.180 about building community, not trying to hawk product, actually bring these people together,

00:31:44.560 help them because most of them want to lose weight, help them lose weight, make the mission

00:31:48.780 of our company to end metabolic disease. Like all of a sudden we can really do something.

00:31:53.140 People will know who we are as people. I was obsessed with that. It was like, I want to be

00:31:57.080 me today. I would say, I want to be authentic back then. I was just like, I want our personalities

00:32:01.280 to shine through. I want people to know who we are. Companies shouldn't be nameless, faceless

00:32:04.800 organizations. It should be real people. And you should really feel them in the copy on the website,

00:32:08.660 in the content that they put out. And I know how to tell stories. Let us tell stories to these

00:32:14.180 guys. So we started building just a totally different infrastructure than any company out

00:32:19.420 there. We made our own content studio. We were creating all of our own content. We were essentially

00:32:23.560 telling stories. What does the brand mean? What should it mean to you? And that ended up,

00:32:28.320 because we were so early in the game of social media, we just exploded.

00:32:34.280 Yeah. It's kind of amazing. And I remember the first time we met, which I guess would have been

00:32:38.260 2013. So you guys were, certainly you would see a quest bar here and there in a store,

00:32:44.500 but nothing like you do today, of course. But I really remember you explaining this at the time

00:32:50.620 and me sort of not getting it, which was, and I don't even remember back then, like what were your

00:32:56.920 main social media channels? Was it mostly Facebook? Was Instagram around? I don't even remember.

00:33:02.060 Didn't even exist. I remember when that came out.

00:33:04.260 Wow. So this was all through Facebook, all through Facebook, a little bit of Twitter,

00:33:08.180 and then probably year two, Instagram started to be a thing. And then we started putting more

00:33:12.940 and more resources and then Instagram exploded. And Instagram really carried a lot of weight in the

00:33:18.860 fitness community because it's so visual. So that was a huge win for us.

00:33:23.060 When did you realize that this thing could work? This thing being quest?

00:33:27.100 Well, I knew it could work from the jump for what I wanted, which was I wanted to love what I was

00:33:31.180 doing every day. I wanted to feel like I was sort of going to battle a righteous battle with my two

00:33:35.580 brothers who I care deeply about and thought they had just amazing skills that would just be

00:33:40.140 incredibly valuable in what we were doing. And I felt ready as a marketer. I felt like I understood

00:33:45.060 something that nobody else understood. I felt that we could move fast and I felt that we could serve

00:33:49.020 our customer well. And that was it. And I believe, cause we always talked, we were a food company.

00:33:53.620 We didn't look at it as a supplement company or a bar company. We were a food company

00:33:56.920 and we were going to end metabolic disease. We wanted to make meaningful contributions to the

00:34:02.440 world of how food is made, source, processed, understood, eaten, like all of it. And even just

00:34:08.100 looking at the kinds of imagery we were putting out there, we went so against veins and chains,

00:34:13.680 right? So the bodybuilding industry up until that point was literally guys with massive muscles,

00:34:18.160 huge veins wearing chains. And that was everywhere. Everywhere had that image. And we thought,

00:34:25.700 oh man, we're going to focus on food. I became obsessed with this certain color blue,

00:34:29.960 which I thought was appealed to men, appealed to women. It was like this beautiful, optimistic,

00:34:34.720 creative color. I did all this research on what blue means to people and how it hits the retina.

00:34:38.360 And literally it became like an actual stress point because it was hard to get the right color,

00:34:42.460 but then it becomes this iconic color. The whole industry starts copying it. It was bananas,

00:34:46.360 but like going contract. Like I heard, I don't remember where I heard this, but they said,

00:34:50.180 if you really want to be successful, you have to be a contrarian and you have to be right.

00:34:53.840 Right. And we were a contrarian and we were right. And so because of that, it just, everything went

00:34:59.480 nuts. And so looking at everything differently and building a company that we were excited about

00:35:04.800 in a new way, taking care of customers. It was just, yeah, it was crazy.

00:35:08.880 And you've been now doing impact theory for two years?

00:35:13.320 Just under, yeah.

00:35:14.320 So talk to me about that transition and tell me a little bit about what impact theory is. I mean,

00:35:18.240 I think I have some idea, but my guess is I'm probably missing a few of the details and also

00:35:23.260 the understanding of when you decided, Hey, it's time to go do this other thing full time. Cause

00:35:28.300 this was obviously a passion for you always. Yeah. So to understand impact theory, you have to

00:35:34.020 understand Rashaun Jackson. And when I was in college and desperately trying to get good grades,

00:35:40.340 I had a teacher offer extra credit to go tutor inner city kids. And so I said, yes. And they of course

00:35:46.200 give you the most problematic kids you can imagine. So they gave me this young, probably drug and

00:35:52.380 alcohol impacted hyperactive kid who was hyperactive on a level I'd never seen. The kid was bouncing off

00:35:58.420 the walls all over the place. It was crazy. And my job was to get him to do his homework. And so for

00:36:02.500 the first hour, he would cry and scream and freak out and like run around and get in fights and just

00:36:07.360 go nuts. And then when I would say, all right, hours up, I got to go. Then he would become so sweet

00:36:12.600 and soppy and he would cry and just beg me to stay and help him. And so like a sucker, I would stay. So

00:36:18.380 he'd get me for two hours. And so around like week four, week five, I realized this kid's trolling

00:36:24.340 me. Like he knows he gets an extra hour if he ignores me for the first hour and then his sweet and

00:36:29.320 sweetness and light the second hour. So that starts getting really annoying for me because I've got so

00:36:34.480 much work to do. And on week six, you're supposed to tell him, Hey, I'm only coming for two more

00:36:38.280 weeks. Cause it's an eight week program. So week six, I tell this kid I'm only coming for two more

00:36:42.500 weeks, just so you know. And he flipped out. He went nuclear is eight at this point and just,

00:36:49.080 just goes bananas. And he was, he was really small because he was on Ritalin or something.

00:36:53.020 And so it stunted his growth. So it was just tiny, tiny for his age. And he went up and just slugged

00:36:57.800 this kid who was like, no joke, three times the size. I just never seen like pent up rage like that.

00:37:03.820 And I was like, wow, I finally get him under control. I get him back. And I'm like,

00:37:07.620 is this because I said I was only coming for two more weeks? And he says through sobbing,

00:37:11.800 hysterical tears. Yes. So I said, look, cause now I'm fed up with the whole, just like drama routine.

00:37:17.900 And I said, if, and only if you do your homework, the moment I get here, as long as I live in Los

00:37:26.420 Angeles, I will keep coming and helping you with your homework. And so we agreed. And that turned into

00:37:31.600 an eight and a half year relationship. And I ended up becoming far more than just a tutor. And he becomes

00:37:37.000 an integral part of my life. And I, his, and I didn't know it at the time, but he was being

00:37:40.700 abused at home and he ends up getting taken away by the police. And he makes me the guardian of the

00:37:47.540 court and I have to help him through the court system and into foster care. I mean, like that's

00:37:51.680 how intertwined our lives became. And then I'm young and poor at this point and they move him farther and

00:37:57.200 farther away. And I never really felt like I was able to help him because I was so young and stupid.

00:38:01.260 And the only thing I really knew how to do was to show him that there's a life he never sees.

00:38:05.780 So I would take him to see movies in Beverly Hills. Cause I was like, movies cost the same,

00:38:09.180 but I can at least take him to a beautiful neighborhood that left a really lasting mark

00:38:14.140 on me and my personality. And it planted a seed. And then flash forward 10, 15 years later,

00:38:18.840 I'm at quest. I now 1400 employees and about a thousand of them grew up hard, just like this kid,

00:38:23.600 Rashawn. And I realize I have an opportunity to help make their lives better, but how?

00:38:30.620 And so we start thinking of the same called quest university. And it was meant to be

00:38:34.300 making protein bars as your tuition, but really learn the things you need to learn to go and have

00:38:39.080 a better life. And so I write the 25 bullet points, which are the 25 things I had to do to my mind to

00:38:44.120 go from laying on my unfurnished apartment floor, flirting with depression, not knowing how I was going

00:38:50.740 to do anything with my life, feeling totally out of control, hopeless and lost to building a billion

00:38:54.880 dollar brand. I knew exactly what I had to do. The changes in beliefs, the thought patterns,

00:38:59.260 everything that I had to do. And so I started giving that to people and trying to help them

00:39:03.540 and people would come to me and like, these are thugs, dude, like tattoos up the neck,

00:39:07.660 teardrop tattoos, grown men coming to me in tears. You care more about my success and my own mother.

00:39:13.540 I have hope in my future for the first time ever, like people moving up. One guy comes off the line

00:39:18.760 and ends up working in our tech department. Cause I showed him how to like learn tech on the side.

00:39:22.580 I mean, it's just crazy. Like so many stories like that. Absolutely extraordinary. And I was like,

00:39:28.200 when I'm at my most honest, I love helping with the body. But when I'm at my most honest,

00:39:33.600 helping with the mind is what I'm meant to do. And so I thought we're doing all of this for the

00:39:40.320 employees. Let's create a show. We'll call it inside quest and I'll interview. Cause what I feared.

00:39:46.880 And I remember when I did it, I said, my big fear in writing these 25 things down and they hung on

00:39:50.900 the wall. It was like a whole thing. My fear in writing them down is that you'll memorize them,

00:39:54.700 but you won't live by them. And so I wanted to bring other successful people in that I knew

00:40:00.200 just because they're universal laws of success. I knew would say roughly the same thing over and

00:40:05.200 over and over. And these guys would see, okay, it's not just dad. It's all these people that are

00:40:09.120 saying the same thing. And so that became really important. And so I'm pouring myself into making that

00:40:14.020 great in an effort to really do something amazing for the employees. And then at this time,

00:40:19.920 we ended up having just the incredible financial windfall at a personal level that, you know,

00:40:24.680 we'd all fantasized about since the day we got into business. And I realized all of a sudden,

00:40:28.980 you know, we're in a very fortunate position where the three of us have the financial wherewithal.

00:40:33.520 We don't always have to agree on everything. We don't always have to move in the same direction.

00:40:37.340 The company would be very stable now without me. They didn't necessarily, they being Ron and Mike

00:40:41.660 didn't necessarily have my level of excitement for doing the mind. And our consumer base was asking,

00:40:47.500 why the hell is the protein bar guy talking about mindset? So it was a total brand disconnect.

00:40:51.900 And I looked at it and thought, given enough years, I can get people to change the way that

00:40:57.060 they think about this brand. But are my partners going to want to share in that horrific cost as

00:41:01.920 I shift the brand to fit what I want to do? I mean, it didn't seem like a fair thing to drag them

00:41:06.440 through. So, you know, I said, look, this is something that is important enough to me that I have to do it

00:41:11.280 in my life. So we agreed to part ways at that point and build things the way that we see fit.

00:41:16.800 And so I took the studio that we had built inside of Quest and spun it out into a standalone company.

00:41:21.760 That's now Impact Theory. We create both what I call nonfiction content, stuff like this,

00:41:26.160 interview shows, and then fiction content. So we've got our first comic book coming out that

00:41:30.060 we hope to turn into film or TV.

00:41:31.920 So how much of what you learned in film school figures into what you do today?

00:41:35.840 A lot, a lot. So film school is psychology with and put the camera here for best results.

00:41:41.780 Once you understand that, that your job is really to take the audience on an emotional and ideological

00:41:47.500 ride that at the end, they're entertained, but at least from my perspective, also enriched.

00:41:53.280 And look, most films don't worry about the second part. That's an obsession of mine. But when I think

00:41:58.900 about the things that really shaped my life, it's the stories I tell myself about myself. And it's the

00:42:03.140 stories that I identify with and make the dominant metaphors in my life. Joseph Campbell said,

00:42:07.600 if you want to change the world, change the metaphor. So I have lofty visions of what can be

00:42:13.100 impacted through art. I heard a quote the other day, though, that is very sobering and definitely

00:42:17.940 keeps me thinking about ways to really impact people. And he said, if, you know what, 300 years

00:42:22.100 of Shakespeare hasn't stopped genocide, then what hope does art really have? And I think that's a fair

00:42:26.980 point. But I think that we're living through a time today where you can marry the nonfiction,

00:42:31.600 the direct, the explanatory with the metaphorical, because I think the big problem is that the

00:42:38.660 belief in the metaphor has dropped out. And Joseph Campbell, again, talks about this and says,

00:42:42.900 part of the reason that you get these stunted adolescents is because there's no ritual driven

00:42:48.080 by belief that the ritual has deep meaning. So people aren't different from childhood to adulthood

00:42:54.820 without those transitional rituals. And same with divorce. And he said, I think a big part of the

00:42:59.540 divorce rate is that people don't have these transitional rituals. And so I took that really

00:43:03.260 seriously. And when I got married, I went through ritualistic scarification because I wanted to be

00:43:07.840 a different man the day before my wedding than the day after. And I can't tell you how many times

00:43:11.660 that's really like reminded me going through something painful that was difficult, made me think of myself

00:43:17.860 as different and begin telling myself a different story that I'm married now.

00:43:21.480 So say more about that. What did you do exactly?

00:43:23.480 When I put it into normal terms, it won't sound as cool, but I got a tattoo. Now for me,

00:43:29.480 tattoos were not something I wanted. I don't like tattoos. Don't have a thing for tattoos. I have

00:43:33.180 exactly one. And that was the one that I got as a ritualistic scarification. I was deathly afraid of

00:43:38.640 needles at the time, deathly afraid. So for me, it was facing my biggest fear, doing something that was

00:43:43.480 painful with this thing that held some sort of mythical like element of terror in my life. To give you an

00:43:49.860 idea, I was one of those guys that when I had injections in my wrist at one point, I almost

00:43:54.340 fainted and I wasn't even looking because the thought of a needle penetrating my skin freaked

00:43:59.100 me out that much. So that's where I was when I got the tattoo. It was just, it was the scariest thing

00:44:04.820 I could think of within the realm of reality, right? I didn't go swimming with great white sharks. Okay.

00:44:08.620 That obviously would be far more terrifying, but within the, like the plausible realm of this isn't

00:44:14.340 potentially actually dangerous. It was the worst thing I could think of. And so doing that,

00:44:19.320 having to face that fear, having to do that ended up being really important for me transitioning out

00:44:23.760 of being single to being married. I've heard you talk before about money and it's something

00:44:28.960 that I've certainly asked a number of my patients. One of the privileges of medicine, I think there

00:44:36.100 are several, but one of them I think is that you form relationships with people where you can ask

00:44:40.180 very intimate questions. And sometimes they're not just about their health, it's about their

00:44:44.220 happiness. And even though my patient population is quite small, given the affluence of some of my

00:44:49.500 patients, I've had interesting discussions with people about how wealth does and doesn't impact

00:44:53.960 their lives. So I guess even though you're not my patient, I'll ask you basically the same sort of

00:44:59.540 question, which is, did you feel different the day after your liquidity event?

00:45:03.860 No. And that's the weirdest part. Here's exactly what it was for me. And I think this is near

00:45:09.600 universal. When I looked, when I was poor and all through my childhood, I looked at people that had

00:45:16.460 money and I had adoration for them. It just seemed so cool. And I thought that in some way they were

00:45:23.660 better than me or certainly in a better place than me. And that that made them in some ways better,

00:45:28.040 certainly more desirable to be like that. And so looking at them, you meet them with a bit of

00:45:33.860 reverence. And so in the back of your mind somewhere is the notion that when I get money,

00:45:39.620 I will have that adoration for myself. And I will have that sense of reverence for myself.

00:45:45.000 And you think that somehow like all the insecurities that you have will be washed out by that reverence

00:45:50.300 and adoration. And it's not. And you realize that you feel exactly the same the next day. And the easiest

00:45:56.780 way I can explain it is to say that it's like losing your virginity. Before I lost mine, I legitimately

00:46:03.400 thought like colors would be brighter. I would just be somehow a fundamentally different person.

00:46:09.840 And then I had sex and was like, oh, that was rad. I loved it, but I'm not a different person.

00:46:15.000 And that was exactly how I felt with the money. It was rad, dude. Money is better than people think.

00:46:19.480 It's more powerful than people think to be certain, but it's not at all what people have been told.

00:46:23.780 It's not going to impact how you feel about yourself. It is merely going to extend your

00:46:28.660 capabilities. You will suddenly be able to facilitate things you wouldn't be able to facilitate.

00:46:32.800 Money is essentially inert, right? There's a bit of heat energy to a dollar bill that you could

00:46:37.080 release by burning it. But short of that, the money in and of itself is inert, but it can facilitate

00:46:42.900 things. Now, if you have a clear vision of what you want to facilitate, and it's a problem that can

00:46:46.820 be addressed with money, suddenly money becomes insanely powerful. And if you really want to think

00:46:50.800 about how powerful money is, think about how much of your own life is determined by what you get

00:46:55.260 paid to do. Now imagine controlling that money and you realize that you're able to aim incredibly

00:47:01.200 intelligent, capable people at problems you want solved. It's not even necessarily the problem

00:47:05.000 they want solved. So that gets really, really interesting. And then if you can help them fall

00:47:09.880 in love with what they're doing, if you can give them a supportive environment, if you can make sure

00:47:13.860 they know that we're all equals here, we have different roles, but we're all equally important

00:47:18.980 that their voice is desired, that they're there because you want to hear from them. Then it's like,

00:47:22.900 holy hell, I know I only get their attention because I'm willing to pay them. But now that I have their

00:47:28.120 attention and can create this ecosystem, this environment for them to thrive in,

00:47:32.640 we can do some pretty extraordinary things. It seems like one's motivation around money can

00:47:37.760 change because certainly I'm guessing when you were young or when you were, let's say, right out of

00:47:42.760 college, right? You're sort of at a low point. It sounds like we didn't go too much into it, although

00:47:46.740 that's the kind of stuff I enjoy talking about. It's the pain and the humiliation of that experience.

00:47:51.500 And at that moment, my guess is you would have thought, give me a bunch of money and my problems go away.

00:47:57.040 And maybe I'm wrong, but I don't get the sense that at that moment you would have realized that

00:48:01.620 that wasn't true. And at best, that money would have given you the opportunity to go back and do

00:48:05.960 what you loved. And those are different things, right? Very. Yeah. Yeah. Unfortunately, back then

00:48:12.360 I was chasing money all out because I thought it would solve all of my problems. And I thought it

00:48:18.100 would make me cool as hell. I just thought it would be so cool, dude. I thought I'm going to be the man.

00:48:21.960 I want a fast car. I want a Lamborghini. I want every blingy thing that you can imagine. I wanted

00:48:29.420 it all. And I fantasized about it. And whenever I thought about money, the only thing I thought

00:48:35.680 about was what it could buy me. That was it. And how cool people were going to think I was,

00:48:40.080 how cool I would think myself. Yeah. That was the nature of money to me.

00:48:43.920 Who do you consider a role model in people who have taken great wealth and put it to

00:48:49.540 maximum impact? Elon Musk. No question. He's probably, I really want to think about this.

00:48:55.620 He's probably one of the few people that legitimately makes me feel badly about myself

00:48:59.860 and like makes me sweat when I think about like, Oh, could I really do that? Like, I like to think

00:49:05.400 I can do anything, Peter, but spinning that many plates at one time. Yikes. I don't know that I

00:49:11.220 process raw data fast enough. That's the God's honest truth. And so let's consider one of those

00:49:16.460 things, which is SpaceX. I used to be an engineer, so I'm pretty impressed by the

00:49:21.200 kilo to dollar ratio of payload. Sometimes I still can't believe it's happened.

00:49:26.820 I mean what they've done. Have you ever been to see a launch? No. Have you? I have not. I have a

00:49:32.800 couple of friends who have. I'd love to. Yeah. It's, I mean, there's some really cool videos out

00:49:37.120 there. Yeah. I've seen the videos. The videos are amazing. Have you taken off and landing? And you've seen

00:49:40.940 the videos where like you have to wear the correct headphones to be able to actually. No. Oh yeah.

00:49:45.700 There's a guy on YouTube. Maybe we can find it for the show notes, but, um, there's a really cool

00:49:50.820 video where you can actually hear, you just get an amazing auditory experience basically. Yeah. Yeah.

00:49:57.080 It's, it's, it's, um, yeah, it's actually not that recent. I feel like it was in the last three or four

00:50:02.200 months. Yeah. Pretty impressive. Yeah. I've heard people talk about how, um, SpaceX could be a trillion

00:50:08.840 dollar company, which is, is pretty interesting. I don't know that, you know, it's funny when I went to

00:50:13.540 college, I wanted to be an aerospace engineer. So I'm obviously pretty interested in that stuff,

00:50:17.700 but, and this is going to sound like a complete sort of poo poo on the whole thing, but I'm so much more

00:50:23.260 interested in like what's happening on earth and what's happening in space. And I don't know when

00:50:27.400 that transition took place, but as interesting as I think that stuff is intellectually, I just think

00:50:33.340 emotionally, I feel much more curious about what's happening right in front of me. And I'm also

00:50:40.180 equally amazed at things that we don't know that are so close. Like, you know, because I used to

00:50:43.780 spend so much time swimming, I'm kind of amazed by the ocean, which is like, you know, if you think

00:50:49.760 about it at its deepest point, it might be what 12, 14 kilometers deep. Like that's a trivial distance.

00:50:56.600 You could walk that in an afternoon, but when going straight down, that's a depths of unknowns. Like we

00:51:02.280 can't even fathom new types of organisms that don't even require sunlight, that kind of stuff. So

00:51:08.580 by selecting Elon as your example, it's sort of like saying, look, there are lots of incredibly

00:51:14.180 wealthy people, Bill Gates, Warren Buffett, many of these folks who have, you know, and people who

00:51:18.420 are less well-known like John Arnold, who through philanthropy have done remarkable things, but

00:51:23.420 Elon has done it through building companies that are kind of paradigm shifting. I mean, that's an

00:51:31.040 overused term, but I think it's safe to say that for his stuff. So what is the paradigm you want to

00:51:37.620 change? I want to make sure that no human being on the planet fails to encounter an empowering

00:51:44.420 mindset. That's what I'm all about. And so meeting kids in the inner cities, and I'll tell you a

00:51:50.520 story. So I used to interview everybody. If you got a job at Quest, I interviewed you, whether you were

00:51:55.460 the EVP of global sales or you were the janitor, you interviewed with me. And so that meant that I

00:52:01.660 went through a phase where all I was interviewing was people working for the production line, which

00:52:06.060 naturally draws people from lower income brackets. And I started asking just because I wanted to

00:52:11.860 really understand like what motivates you? Because my thing was, I never wanted to hire somebody

00:52:16.140 into a parasitic relationship where there, I was going to get their time and essentially give them

00:52:21.680 very little money when you really think about it in exchange for that time. And so I thought, wow,

00:52:25.660 they're going to spend 50% of their waking hours with me and I'm going to give them not enough money.

00:52:30.240 And I didn't feel good about that relationship. Now you can't build a business just by throwing money

00:52:34.100 at everybody. So what else could I do to add value to people's lives? So I was like, one thing I can

00:52:38.120 hire people who there's a secondary thing that they can learn from us. And then they can go on and do

00:52:43.240 that thing. So they can build their skillset up. The example I gave earlier of the kid who wanted to

00:52:47.520 learn technology, awesome, came in, busted ass, made a lot of protein bars, but also we helped him get

00:52:52.400 a job in tech within our own company. He then goes on to start his own tech company. It was crazy.

00:52:58.680 So I was looking for people like that. I wanted to know what's that next thing. I know that you

00:53:03.360 don't want to spend the rest of your life working a protein bar line. So what's the next thing that

00:53:07.340 you want? And if I, if I really believe that I can help you get there, then our selfish desires are

00:53:12.120 aligned. We can work together to make something amazing happen. And I would rather have you for

00:53:15.820 three or four years. And you believe that I'm making your life better every day than to have you for 20

00:53:20.600 years. And you hate every bit of it. The way that those two people will work is so dramatically

00:53:26.280 different. Just to be clear, part of your motivation is also selfish, right? It's like,

00:53:31.240 I'm going to get way more out of you in four years on a per unit basis, a productivity basis than 20

00:53:36.980 years where you're, you know, you're going to stay here forever, but you're not happy. And then part

00:53:41.000 of it is sort of altruistic. Yeah. I'll even say it's all selfish. So I don't think selfish is

00:53:46.780 necessarily a bad thing. I just think that we all live life from our perspective. We're motivated by

00:53:50.760 certain things. I like to see other people win. I'm wired for it. So I remember when I was like

00:53:55.520 six or seven in an Easter egg hunt, I pretended not to see some Easter eggs because I knew winning

00:54:00.760 meant a lot more to my sister than it did to me. So I pretended not to see them. She found them and

00:54:04.460 she won and she was very happy. So that's just me. I just like to see people that I care about happy

00:54:08.600 and having a good time. So that's part of it. I'm wired for that. So I know that I'm going to be

00:54:11.840 stoked if I see that they're having a good time. And then I want to build a big company, make a whole

00:54:15.280 lot of money. And the only way I can do that is by convincing extraordinary people to come work for me

00:54:20.020 and then make it a great environment where they don't want to leave. So yeah, I don't mind people saying

00:54:23.600 that it's entirely selfish. Fine. If it's good for people, I'm okay with that.

00:54:27.040 This became your lab. I mean, I didn't realize this. You interviewed every person you hired.

00:54:32.020 I've interviewed north of 1,500 people, which doesn't sound like a lot when you think of all

00:54:36.080 the things you do 1,500 times until you go to interview 1,500 people and you realize,

00:54:40.400 Jesus, this is a lot of people. So yeah, years of my life were spent interviewing.

00:54:45.280 We were growing by 57,000%. What did you learn from that process that surprised you the most?

00:54:49.240 Yeah. This is a punchline to the question that you actually asked. In wanting to find out what is

00:54:53.400 your real desire, I started doing this magic genie question. So you can ask for anything that you want,

00:54:58.720 anything at all. Got to be something selfish though. Can't be to cure cancer or bring somebody

00:55:02.060 back from the dead and you can't ask for more wishes. So what do you wish for? And I wanted to

00:55:05.640 just get like that truest thing that they really want. And Peter, to a person, remember I interviewed

00:55:12.640 hundreds of people, to a person, they all said the exact same thing. What are the odds that like,

00:55:20.100 let's just say that that particular question I asked 300 people, what are the odds that every

00:55:25.660 single one of them without exception would give you the same answer?

00:55:29.800 Well, if you're not leading them or asking the question to each of them at a point in the

00:55:35.340 discussion that was equivalent, so you're priming them, I would say the answer is the probability is

00:55:40.620 incredibly low. Okay. So I'm leading them just enough that we narrow the world down for sure.

00:55:47.100 Otherwise this really would be like a magic trick because almost to a person, this was less

00:55:52.040 universal, but almost to a person, the first answer was, I want a job, which I know is bullshit.

00:55:56.500 They're saying that because they are there for an interview. So I would say, okay, I get that.

00:56:01.420 A lot of people give that to me as their first answer. So this is now me leading them. And I say,

00:56:05.720 why do you want the job? And they would say for money. Okay, rad. So is it fair to say you would

00:56:10.320 ask the magic genie for money? Yes. So none of this is weird to me. The weird part is when I say,

00:56:15.420 give me a number and every single one of them, every single one, I never once got a variation,

00:56:21.220 gave me the same number. And the number was a million dollars, a million dollars. Peter,

00:56:26.580 what the fuck are you going to do with a million dollars? You can't buy a house in LA for a million

00:56:30.140 dollars, let alone be set up for a life. It's a magic genie. Now I've thought about the magic genie

00:56:35.500 question a lot. And if you're asking for money, you've already wasted your ask, but fair enough.

00:56:40.060 Like I spend a lot of time thinking about the magic genie, but the fact that they all asked for a million

00:56:44.320 dollars was crazy to me. And the first time I heard it, I thought, well, that's weird.

00:56:48.240 The fifth time I thought, man, how is it possible? Five people have said the same thing around number

00:56:53.280 10. I actually thought my team was fucking with me and that they had started telling them ahead of

00:56:56.820 time to do it just to like mess with me. By the time we got to 25, I realized something about humanity

00:57:02.100 that you only dream as big as you think, and you only think as big as what you see.

00:57:08.600 So if what you see around you is that everyone's wishing and thinking about a million dollars,

00:57:12.780 because that seems like an impossibly large amount of money, you never go, my dream in life

00:57:16.780 is to terraform Mars. Okay. You never think that big. You're stuck at a million dollars.

00:57:21.980 It would never occur to you that you can terraform Mars because your thinking is so limited by what

00:57:28.220 you've seen. And I thought, whoa, if I could just give them my mindset overnight, because I'm,

00:57:34.440 I'm interviewing people that are smarter than me and I'll define smart as the ability to process

00:57:39.580 raw data quickly. Okay. Does that seem like a reasonable definition?

00:57:43.460 It seems like one component, but I don't know the definition of smart. I would certainly include

00:57:47.940 that in it, but, but let's grant that that's the definition we use for the moment.

00:57:52.620 So I would come across people that blew me away. They could just think faster than me. They could see

00:57:57.560 all the different permutations of a given problem and come up with a solution that was well thought

00:58:01.620 out, more intricate than I could. And so I thought, okay, well, my success isn't predicated on

00:58:06.380 intelligence. Uh, it's definitely partly hard work, but I work hard because I have a certain

00:58:10.300 belief in a mindset that I can, that my efforts will be rewarded. So I started thinking, okay,

00:58:14.660 humans lead with belief. It's because I believe that I can get better at something that I'll pour

00:58:19.040 myself into it, but they don't believe that they're going to get that result. So they don't,

00:58:22.120 they don't believe that they could ever get a hundred million dollars, a billion dollars,

00:58:25.140 a hundred billion, a trillion. That's just not real to them. So even though we're talking to a magic

00:58:29.520 genie, they don't think that big. So it was crazy. And if you push them and really write them,

00:58:34.080 they they'll work their way up to 10 million, but nobody ever goes a billion, a trillion.

00:58:38.240 There's don't. So I was like, wow, I became obsessed with how do I codified my mindset,

00:58:44.980 what I've done over the last, at that point, like 12 years of just training myself to think

00:58:51.200 a certain way. How do I impart that to people? And that is still my obsession. So that's what I'm

00:58:56.660 hoping can be done through story. And when you read Homo Deus and Sapiens, it just really

00:59:02.160 understanding how narrative is so massively influential and that the dominant narratives

00:59:07.580 that we use are all religious. And then you look at how I think the bottom is falling out

00:59:12.140 in terms of belief in a lot of the religions for a lot of people. And you just go, okay,

00:59:17.360 well, what's the ultimate punchline when people no longer have a metaphor that they put any weight

00:59:21.680 in, they have no belief in, then it really becomes a documentary. And my life is what my life is.

00:59:26.080 I know it because I see it. And that scared me because now if you can only envision what you're

00:59:31.460 living, you can't even turn to the Bible to see extraordinary acts. You can't, the Quran,

00:59:37.100 the whatever, to a movie, something to have some vision of something that's bigger than what you've

00:59:42.600 done. And I thought, could we use storytelling to give people a way to think in the way that the

00:59:47.760 matrix gave me a way to think. And so that became the obsession.

00:59:52.260 It's funny. I was thinking about it while you were explaining what would I ask for in the genie

00:59:56.620 question. And it's so interesting that I wouldn't think to ask for money, which is not to say that

01:00:01.720 I wouldn't love to have more money because of the reasons we described, it would be amazing to be

01:00:06.780 able to amplify the things I want to do. The first thing that jumps to my mind is like the type of

01:00:11.340 laboratory I'd want to have and how I hate the fact that all of the best scientists that I interview

01:00:16.480 for my book and, you know, for the podcast and just folks from my friends, I mean,

01:00:20.620 they spend 50% of their time fundraising. And I imagine a world where like you could create like

01:00:25.760 a true Institute where you're going after high risk translational problems with infinite resources.

01:00:33.960 So let me tell you, if the genie would give me the dollars, I'd be happy to take them.

01:00:39.200 But I actually think the first thing that comes to my mind would be some form of fulfillment because

01:00:42.840 at least money, you sort of know it can be got, but fulfillment strikes me as one of the hardest

01:00:48.540 things to find. Again, maybe I'm biased by what I see clinically, which is people who have more

01:00:56.620 money than they could ever spend. I've actually had one patient say to me, it's almost impossible

01:01:01.840 to spend more than $600 million in your lifetime. That was the number. That was the, I remember that

01:01:06.080 was like, you know, anything over 600 million is just a waste. Like you can't possibly spend it.

01:01:10.700 That is a failure of imagination. I assure you. I mean, look at Elon Musk. Come on.

01:01:15.060 Like even just to pour 600 extra million into each one of his three companies, he could do.

01:01:19.960 Well, I think this person was saying through like expenditure on, you know, like willy nilly

01:01:24.680 stuff, but interestingly, fulfillment seems to be something that's missing. I certainly don't

01:01:30.740 think I know fully what it means. I think I've had moments where I've experienced it, but it's

01:01:35.320 interesting if it's a real magic genie, can you imagine what that would feel like?

01:01:38.840 Yes. Can I give you my secret formula to fulfillment?

01:01:41.580 I would love to hear it. So one fulfillment is a neurochemical state. So there's no possibility of

01:01:51.080 a flat line. So there's no way you're, you're just going to have it forever. I think that it ebbs

01:01:54.920 and flows with the movements of a day. But having said that, I think that fulfillment comes from

01:02:01.100 becoming someone that you're proud of building a skillset that was incredibly hard to build that

01:02:08.160 serves not only yourself, but other people. So you're doing the hard things. You're not doing

01:02:14.900 things that would be deeply pleasurable. And in building your identity around not doing things that

01:02:19.900 are pleasurable in order to become extraordinary in order to serve other people. I think that's the

01:02:25.500 name of fulfillment. When I think about the times where I feel just fucking awesome, it is because

01:02:29.860 I did something really hard while other people were playing. It made me more powerful in the way

01:02:35.440 that I define it, which I can't believe power has become a dirty word. Power to me is close your

01:02:39.420 eyes. Imagine a world, a better world, the world you want to create, open your eyes and have the

01:02:44.180 ability to manifest that that's power. So mother trees had power. She was able to do things.

01:02:50.320 That is what leads to fulfillment. It's what the Greeks called technique. It's not enough to go

01:02:55.500 ladle soup at a kitchen, right? That should, that's pleasurable. It feels good, but it isn't

01:03:00.120 fulfillment because you didn't earn any special ability to do that. Now fulfillment is the guy

01:03:06.120 that worked at Toyota that came into the soup kitchen and said, I'm going to improve their

01:03:10.340 efficiency. So more people get fed. And he increased their output by like 40 or 400%. I don't

01:03:15.080 remember how to foreign it, but it was like massive. And I thought that's fulfillment. He worked his ass

01:03:19.580 off. I'm sure there were a ton of days at Toyota where he was like, what am I doing? Why am I doing

01:03:23.540 this? But he gained this set of skills. It was insanely powerful. And he put them to use in the soup

01:03:28.660 kitchen. Now that feels good. That's fulfillment. So getting people to a place where they can

01:03:35.140 learn that the cool stories are the stories that while you're in it suck. Like when I heard your

01:03:41.320 story, a swimming around Catalina Island, that sounded like actual madness to me. When I heard

01:03:47.240 that you swam from Catalina back to the mainland, that sounded crazy. And the same thing with doing the

01:03:53.900 one in Hawaii. I was like, this is great. These are my greatest fears. Open water is my greatest

01:03:58.640 fear. And I thought, but that's why he gets to feel good about himself because he did those

01:04:05.060 things. It's in the hard stuff. It's not the easy stuff. That is interesting. I certainly agree

01:04:09.280 that it's very hard to be fulfilled if you are not in the service of someone else at some point.

01:04:15.360 You know, in other words, I think obviously you have to be in service of many things and others

01:04:19.140 being only one of them. And so, you know, for many people, I think that might be part of the

01:04:23.520 relational joy that they experience in having kids is for a great period of time, you are in

01:04:28.100 service of those kids. In fact, sometimes it seems like you're in service of them too much

01:04:32.360 and you don't get a break from that, but you don't have to have kids to obviously be in service of

01:04:36.120 another person. Yeah. I, I don't know. I really find this question of fulfillment and true relational

01:04:43.200 joy to be interesting in it. And you know, we're in sort of a weird time, right? Because I was talking

01:04:47.820 to a friend of mine who's a psychiatrist. I actually hope to have him on the podcast at some point,

01:04:51.580 because this is a discussion that it's probably going to be a controversial discussion, but I

01:04:55.840 think it's an important one, which is, is there any evolutionary basis for suicide? So that's

01:05:00.780 question one. And the question two is, do we believe that we are seeing on an age adjusted,

01:05:06.980 mortality adjusted basis, are we seeing suicide at a greater extent today than we were before?

01:05:11.580 Or is it just that we are paying more attention to it now or it's less, but I do wonder is,

01:05:17.340 is there any part of civilization that contributes to society? And my intuition says,

01:05:21.280 yes, that's about the extent to which my knowledge would go on this topic. But I,

01:05:25.380 I want to talk about this with somebody who really thinks broadly about this because something that is

01:05:30.280 so against our DNA, like our DNA is pretty geared towards survival. If you think about it, maybe at

01:05:37.500 the risk of oversimplifying what pain could be so great that it could override arguably the single

01:05:43.540 most primitive drive that our species would have. And so I think the prevalence of suicide is such

01:05:51.320 that virtually no person I know's life hasn't been touched by it, which tells you how ubiquitous it is.

01:05:57.840 And it's sort of, you know, you alluded to depression. I mean, I just think when people

01:06:02.480 really are honest with themselves, like if they haven't thought of killing themselves, they've

01:06:06.660 certainly thought life isn't that much fun. And that's, that's kind of a sobering thought.

01:06:11.400 I've become obsessed with this topic. I'm unfortunately not the person you're looking

01:06:16.180 for that has like the real deep knowledge, but I will, I will say this. I'm not the right person

01:06:21.580 to take any advice from on this topic, but follow my logic. I think that there's something terrifying

01:06:26.880 happening with the microbiome. And I think that the potential effects of the microbiome being one of

01:06:35.060 the massive contributory factors in what feels like. And again, I don't know, is it just,

01:06:40.740 we're paying attention to it more maybe, but man, it feels epidemic right now. It's crazy.

01:06:46.220 You had Anthony Bourdain and Kate Spade kill themselves in the same week. I mean, it's like

01:06:50.220 we can just accept money doesn't solve the problem. Fame doesn't solve the problem.

01:06:53.840 And so I just started thinking, okay, well, what are we going through right now? Now I am

01:06:57.220 particularly obsessed with the microbiome because of what happened to my wife,

01:07:00.480 which I can't remember how much you and I've talked about this.

01:07:03.640 No, no, I don't think I know. All right. So three years ago, we are on our way to Vegas

01:07:08.260 packed the bags, baby. I'm on my way. And my wife goes, I'm not feeling well. I feel funny.

01:07:15.780 And I was like, what does that mean? She's like, I don't know. I just don't feel right.

01:07:19.380 And then an hour later, she's like, gosh, I'm feeling kind of nauseous. I think I need to go

01:07:23.800 home. And I was like, whoa. So she leaves. And then she calls me from the parking lot crying.

01:07:29.020 And she's like, I just projectile vomited everywhere. I was like, oh baby, like, wow,

01:07:33.900 this crazy. Like, I can't remember the last time that she threw up. So I was like, all right,

01:07:38.140 we'll go home. I'll come down. I'll deal with that. Don't worry. Just go. She goes home and I

01:07:43.060 think, okay, stomach bug, bad timing, bummer, but it didn't go away. And it became, she wasn't

01:07:50.120 vomiting anymore, but she couldn't hold on to food. And I was like, Ooh, this is getting a little scary.

01:07:54.680 And it's one of those where like, how many people does diarrhea kill? You know? So I was like really

01:07:58.780 getting paranoid and just nonstop, nonstop, nonstop, everything she ate, nothing like would stay.

01:08:04.220 And I was like, whoa, this is getting really scary. And so we have her microbiome tested and they're

01:08:09.300 like, you basically don't have a microbiome. They're like, it's been so decimated by overuse

01:08:16.020 of antibiotics. Cause my wife used to get chronic chest infections. And so she took antibiotics just

01:08:21.860 in the time that I knew her probably, I don't know, 12 times. So, and who knows how many before

01:08:28.360 that? So, I mean, she just absolutely murdered it. And then of course the sensor into, if she

01:08:33.280 wasn't clinically depressed, she was getting real close and just really, really struggling,

01:08:38.760 emotionally, struggling, physically, unable to like maintain a physique, like just, it was crazy.

01:08:44.920 And so in building it back up and seeing how complicated it is, seeing how much it affects

01:08:49.100 the neurochemistry, knowing that what 95% of serotonin is stored in the gut. I mean, it's crazy.

01:08:54.780 So it just started being this whole thing of like, whoa, I think this is wildly underappreciated.

01:09:00.920 We started doing a lot of microbiome testing at Quest and it was just like, man, people's

01:09:05.040 microbiomes, the diversity is just absolutely atrocious. It's pretty crazy. So whenever I

01:09:10.960 hear something that has to do with neurochemistry, I immediately go to, this is a microbiome problem.

01:09:16.080 So what's changing it then? So in her case, antibiotics might have played a role,

01:09:20.320 massively restricted eating. So we both had really restrictive diets. So remember the whole

01:09:26.100 rabbit starvation, she was doing the same thing. So just over restriction, over sanitizing hands,

01:09:32.200 over washing hands, like never getting anything that's dirty. Yeah. I mean, just making literally

01:09:39.260 every mistake that you can make with your microbiome.

01:09:41.620 That would suggest, because again, the microbiome in that situation would be a facilitator of an

01:09:47.640 environmental issue, right? The environmental changes being nutrition, overuse of antibiotics,

01:09:54.360 sanitation, things like that. I also wonder if there are sort of psychological, emotional

01:10:00.500 cues in the environment that exacerbate this problem.

01:10:04.020 What do you mean like stress?

01:10:05.340 I mean, I hate that word because it's such a sort of loaded term, but I wonder if people feel more alone

01:10:11.480 today than they felt a couple hundred years ago. You know, one of the things you talked about earlier

01:10:16.820 that you were very passionate about was, even though you didn't use the word, was kind of your

01:10:20.460 tribe. You know, it's funny, people ask me if I'm ever talking about my, you know, my training in

01:10:26.640 medicine, they're like, you know, residency sounded really horrible because, you know, you worked about

01:10:31.040 110 to 115 hours a week. You probably slept about, I remember I slept about 28 hours a week. So it was

01:10:38.020 pretty miserable. And it's really funny. I look back at it as one of the fondest five-year

01:10:44.220 periods of my life. And it's despite all of those things, of course, not because of all those

01:10:48.920 things, but part of it was just the camaraderie. I mean, just brotherhood and some sisterhood,

01:10:56.900 right? I mean, there was just amazing male and female residents that you were in the trenches with,

01:11:03.100 and it was a shared sense of purpose, a shared sense of mastery, a shared sense of suffering.

01:11:09.000 But I wonder if outside of places like the military and residency and startup companies,

01:11:17.380 which are places where you see a lot of that camaraderie, are we losing that more broadly?

01:11:23.260 And was that something we were wired to experience?

01:11:25.700 That's really interesting. And another thing that really interests me is the way that culture stacks.

01:11:30.200 So if you had X amount of expectation on your shoulder to succeed, then you give that to your

01:11:36.300 kids plus some, and then they give that to their kids plus some. And when I think like how much my

01:11:40.520 parents drug me around and that seemed crazy, but then I see how much parents drag their kids around

01:11:44.200 now. That's one of the reasons I don't have kids. I was like, if that's the expectation,

01:11:47.480 I'm not prepared to be a chauffeur. So it just gets crazy. The amount, like the, the level of sort of,

01:11:54.380 and look, I'm a freak for efficiency, but the level of like clinical efficiency, the people work

01:11:59.200 into their lives where there is no more play. Like one thing I will tell you that my wife and I

01:12:03.540 are really good about with each other is reminding ourselves not to lose playfulness because look,

01:12:08.200 when I came into business, I needed to toughen up. I needed to get harder. That's just true.

01:12:12.520 My personality. And so as I did that and became more powerful, more self-assured, like it was

01:12:18.180 amazing, but I started to harden. Like everything about me was just harder. Like my wife would be

01:12:22.780 telling a story and I'd be like, get to the punchline, which is a terrible thing to do in your marriage,

01:12:27.200 by the way. And she was like, you just gotten harder. Like you need to be playful,

01:12:31.420 like loosen up. You used to be goofy. And so, yeah, it's interesting. Like how much of that stuff

01:12:37.320 is, as we shape each other and we shape the society and we talk about things like terraforming Mars,

01:12:42.400 but then all of a sudden like, fuck, you've got to give your life over to terraform Mars. Like if you

01:12:46.900 want to be the next Elon Musk, he set the bar so high that it's like, where, where is that breaking

01:12:52.820 point where there's, there's no more natural off switch. You've got your phone all the time.

01:12:56.860 There's no natural break where it's like, well, there's no electricity. So when I'm in the cave,

01:13:00.780 like there's nothing left to do, or it's the weekend. There are no phones. There is no email.

01:13:06.600 So everybody's gone home. So there's no work to be done. So there were all these natural sort of

01:13:10.860 kill points that don't exist anymore. And look, I'm the biggest violator of all. I love to work.

01:13:18.440 My problem is people apply this stuff when they don't even love it that much. And so now they're just

01:13:22.500 working around the clock at something that drains them that gets scary fast.

01:13:26.220 What routines or rituals do you have around protecting yourself to, you know, maintain a

01:13:32.620 creative environment? I mean, do you have forced downtime or forced time away from work? I'm

01:13:40.060 guessing exercise is still very important to you. I mean, what, what sort of routines do you

01:13:43.920 enact to make sure you can function at your best longitudinally?

01:13:48.320 Well, to make sure that I function at my best, I optimize cognitively. So my diet is like

01:13:53.420 thing. Number one, I don't fuck around with my diet. My diet is on point and I work out five

01:13:59.020 days a week. And that is hugely important. I hate it. Absolutely hate the gym, but it's critically

01:14:04.220 important to strength, longevity, and cognitive optimization. Why do you hate the gym?

01:14:08.620 It hurts is the honest answer. That's part one. Part two is dude, remember the whole thing. I want to

01:14:14.900 live forever because there's so many things I want to do that. I love that every minute I'm in the

01:14:19.000 gym is a minute. I'm not doing something that I would really intrinsically love like in and of

01:14:23.300 itself. The moment is fun in the gym. I love the result. I love being able to say I do hard things,

01:14:28.660 but in the moment, it's just pain. It's lactic acid building up. It's heavy weights. It's the

01:14:35.000 disappointment of not being able to lift a weight that you've been trying to get. It's like everything

01:14:39.120 about it is meeting my limitations. Even if it's just the limitation of, I can only do so many reps

01:14:44.200 in a given set for a given weight. And it's like, I literally failed to do this thing. So

01:14:49.960 the act of being in the gym for me is anathema to the things that I love. It's ugly. It's not even

01:14:57.040 beautiful. So it's like iron and weights. Oh God. Like I'm always surprised that I have to explain

01:15:02.600 that to people. Do you enjoy the gym? Me? Yeah, I do. Yeah. My wife loves the gym. You're both crazy to

01:15:08.420 me. Like whatever endorphin rush you're getting, I'm not getting like it is everything about it in the

01:15:14.040 moment is unpleasurable. It's interesting. I wonder why I enjoy it. I guess we all get the

01:15:19.180 things that are easy for us. And for me, fortunately exercise comes easily in terms of

01:15:23.620 it really requires no discipline. Now, sometimes it's a bit of a challenge as far as time management.

01:15:29.000 And sometimes I don't feel like exercising, but it's always for the reason you just described,

01:15:33.820 which is I've really got this other thing to do and it's really pressing. But let's be fair.

01:15:39.860 If you said to me, Peter, I'd like you to go swim the Catalina channel next year that I have no desire

01:15:45.080 to do again. I have no desire to spend, you know, what probably amounted to 20, 24 hours a week in

01:15:52.780 the ocean swimming as part of the training. I mean that, that I don't have a desire to do, but,

01:15:56.720 but I really do enjoy deadlifting, which is not to say it's not unpleasant. And it's not to say that

01:16:02.860 it also makes me upset when I can't do it. So I, I certainly understand all of those things. I mean,

01:16:08.720 so I have this thing where part of my shtick and longevity is rule number one is don't get hurt.

01:16:13.940 Right. So it's like exercise matters, but like, don't be an idiot. And so, you know,

01:16:20.940 one of the things I've been fortunate to develop over the years with the help of a lot of great

01:16:24.900 physical therapists, trainers, and such is a really good sense of the cues that tell you something's

01:16:30.720 not right that day. So I'm getting pretty good at knowing when my glutes are not firing.

01:16:35.240 And when I'm dumping the weight into my sacroiliac joint or into my lumbar spine. And so

01:16:44.020 even to this day, about one out of every five times I go to deadlift, I abort.

01:16:50.880 Really?

01:16:51.640 Yep.

01:16:51.920 That's smart.

01:16:52.580 So I'll go, you know, I warm up bar 135, 185, 225, 275, 315 is always the warmup.

01:16:59.780 And if on the way up that ladder, I don't feel perfect, like perfect, all glute,

01:17:08.600 basically doing the work, nothing loading into my lower bag. If I don't feel that we're done.

01:17:14.200 And honestly, I think at least out of, yeah, probably one, every five sessions, we just abort.

01:17:21.560 And that pisses me off. I mean, truthfully, I get really pissed for like another couple hours. I'm

01:17:25.960 like, I can't believe I didn't get to deadlift. I got to wait a whole week to try this again,

01:17:28.760 blah, blah, blah, blah. And I have the same rule with squatting. You got to can it if you can't do

01:17:32.880 it. But now go back to nutrition. Tell me about what, what is dialed in for you mean?

01:17:37.980 So I'm on just whole foods whenever humanly possible. So I try to vary my sources. So I'll

01:17:45.520 have a wide variety of vegetables constituting a very diverse color array. I eat a lot of eggs.

01:17:53.960 I have a lot of fat in my diet, primarily from olives and olive oil. Those are the big fat. And

01:18:01.700 then I do eat a fair amount of red meat. That would be, I guess, philosophically, some people

01:18:05.800 believe it to be a higher carcinogenic meat. I'll say this, I'm not the right person to take advice

01:18:11.640 on it, but I have no fears about that. I get a lot of my fat from that as well. And then yeah,

01:18:18.200 that's it. Like whole food cycle between, um, beef, chicken, some lamb, a little bit of pork

01:18:26.280 and just try to keep it quote unquote clean, high fat, low carb. And I never cheat. Not never,

01:18:32.140 but wow, it's rare twice a year, maybe. And then it's not like some debaucherous day. It's like a

01:18:37.340 meal. What do you do as far as meal timing, fasting, things like that? Do you do a lot of fasting? So I do

01:18:43.660 a lot of intermittent fasting, but then also at least once a year, I'll do a five day fast and

01:18:49.140 that's water only. It's not like a Ramadan style water only fast, fast, fast for five days. That's

01:18:55.460 been big. What do you feel when you do the five day water only fast anger, a lot of hatred. No,

01:19:01.600 the, the big thing to be fair, what I love about fasting is that it's hard as hell. And I know that

01:19:07.500 I'm going to stick with it. So there's like so much just like juice that comes from that. But the

01:19:13.120 reality is the first two days are easy by day three, the problem is mostly boredom. And what I've

01:19:19.120 realized is I get a lot of dopamine hits from knowing, Oh, I'm going to eat. Like here comes this

01:19:23.700 meal. I love this meal. It's going to be awesome. And there's none of that. So your day doesn't have

01:19:27.860 those like excitement markers in it. So for me, the big problem is, and then also by day four, I do start

01:19:33.520 slowing down, even though I'm fully keto adapted, I'm posting awesome numbers. I'll get into the threes

01:19:38.880 when I'm doing a five day fast. So it's like my machinery is there. I usually do a cycle of keto

01:19:44.200 leading up to a fast. So I'm already primed to burn fat. So it's not that it's just, I do feel less

01:19:50.200 energetic. So, and I don't know if I just am not a great fat burner or if I'm able to, I don't use

01:19:57.400 the ketones as efficient. I don't know. But by day four, I'm like, yeah, I'm 20% off my normal. Like

01:20:03.140 I go, go, go. Now it's not like anybody around me notices. I just know that it takes, I have to

01:20:08.540 push my energy out more. It's not just naturally there for me. How does your body composition change

01:20:12.900 in that five days? I'll lose fat for sure. How much weight do you lose on this? Um, I'd probably,

01:20:17.760 I've never weighed myself. I know better because I can get super myopically focused on the scale.

01:20:22.640 I'm going to guess, call it like three to four pounds. Probably. That's it. Yeah. That's interesting.

01:20:29.020 I lose more than that. Just doing a five day FMD. Really? So that's like the, you know,

01:20:34.140 750 calories a day or it's a thousand the first day and then 750 for four days. Yeah. I can lose.

01:20:39.400 Now that said, it depends on the nutritional state I enter. So if I come in relatively carb fed,

01:20:46.520 yeah, I'll lose 10 pounds in five days. But of course, much of that is water. So each gram of

01:20:52.080 glycogen is carrying around four grams of water. So as you, if you take your glycogen stores down to

01:20:58.600 50% of baseline, you think about how much glycogen that is, plus how much water it is,

01:21:02.720 plus the plasma reduction. It's interesting. I mean, I think it probably speaks to the fact

01:21:07.340 that you're entering at a pretty lean state if you're only losing three or four pounds in a

01:21:11.040 five day fast. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't do, I never carb load ever unless it's like Christmas and you

01:21:15.920 know, I have a snack or dessert or something there, but. You know, it's so interesting. People assume

01:21:20.120 because of all of the time I've spent in ketosis and all of the stuff I've written about it that I

01:21:24.380 don't like carbs, but it's like, it'd be hard to find a person who likes carbs more than me.

01:21:28.900 Like I've never really met a carb I didn't like. I just freaking love them. Like I can eat plain

01:21:35.640 white rice. Like I could eat a bathtub full of plain white rice. Wow. I just, I was going to

01:21:41.880 challenge you because I love me some carbs, but yeah, I'm not, I'm not going to eat plain white

01:21:45.740 rice. You got me beat. I hand the crown willingly over. And then when you do IF, how often are you

01:21:52.260 doing that? If I'm in a ketogenic cycle, I do IF the entire time. So let's say I do one,

01:21:58.500 week protein, one week keto. That's pretty typical for me. So, and I just bounce back and

01:22:03.140 forth. Cause I find if I do too many consecutive weeks where I'm actually posting ketones in my

01:22:07.300 blood that I do start to notice the softening of my muscles. And so I just don't feel as hard.

01:22:12.700 So I tend not to stay ketogenic for long, but I'll bounce back and forth.

01:22:16.700 So you're saying you'll go a week of ketosis, which is obviously restrictive in carbohydrate

01:22:21.140 and protein. Correct. And then on your protein week, do you mean you're adding both carbon protein

01:22:25.920 back in or mostly just protein? Just protein. And so on your on protein week, how many grams a day

01:22:30.320 of protein are you getting? Ooh, it's been a while since I counted. Now I just steer by my blood

01:22:34.120 and how I feel. I probably throw in, I'll add from what I'm normally doing. I'll add 40 grams of

01:22:41.920 protein. It's about right. That's really interesting. Cause that's not that much. So

01:22:46.020 let's say in ketosis, you're walking around at a hundred grams, you'd go up to 140. Correct.

01:22:51.120 Which would be enough to knock you out. And do you reduce your fat intake during the off week?

01:22:55.460 Sort of unintentionally. Yeah. When it, yeah. When I'm high protein, it'll come down just because

01:22:59.920 the calories are being replaced with protein. And okay. So yeah, what I'd asked you was where does

01:23:05.180 your IF fit into that? Are you IFing during the ketone week, but not the non-ketone week? Correct.

01:23:10.640 Correct. Correct. Because I find it so easy to intermittent fast when I'm ketogenic and I find it

01:23:15.560 a little more distracting. I always do. Like I never eat in less than a 12 hour window. So, but I don't

01:23:23.220 consider that intermittent fasting. I only consider it intermittent fasting if I go all the way to 16 hours

01:23:26.920 without food. My average day, even when I don't consider it IF, I eat my last meal at six and then

01:23:32.520 I eat my first meal at eight. That's typical for me. So what's that? 14 hours. Yeah. So my typical day

01:23:38.240 is a 14 hour gap. And then, um, how deliberate are you about your sleep? Very. I'm a psycho about sleep.

01:23:44.740 So I'm in bed by 9 PM every night. Like it's a religion Monday through Friday on Saturday, I'm a little

01:23:49.360 looser, but yeah, I get to bed. I don't use an alarm. I sleep as much as I need. I wake up when I wake up.

01:23:55.160 It is what it is. And I have been doing that now for like 16 years. So that's critical. I do being

01:24:01.700 tired is a unique form of misery. You are worse at everything you do. And so for somebody who's

01:24:07.060 trying to optimize cognitively, like I'm trying to get as much done as humanly possible. If I don't

01:24:11.660 get sleep, then I'm just slower. So I'm like, I was better off spending the time sleeping and then

01:24:16.920 just being more efficient with the time that I was awake. That's a hard thing to explain to some people

01:24:21.240 because, you know, certainly theoretically what you described makes sense. But I think a lot of people

01:24:26.040 say, look, at the end of the day, if you're going to give me four more hours to work and I'll sleep

01:24:32.300 four hours instead of eight, how can that be worse? There was a study that was done at the University of

01:24:36.940 Chicago a couple of years ago. It's a pretty good study, very small study, but it was very well

01:24:40.480 controlled study. They took, um, a group of healthy volunteers and did you glycemic insulin clamps on

01:24:45.280 them? Which is of course the gold standard for measuring glucose disposal. So they did the study

01:24:50.240 or they did the euglycemic clamp and then they restricted their sleep to four hours a night for

01:24:55.220 14 consecutive days. So basically they did for two weeks, what we did in residency for five years.

01:25:01.440 And then they controlled what they were eating during that experiment. So it, the result I'm about

01:25:06.400 to describe was not simply the result of that they ate more during that time. But when they repeated

01:25:12.520 the euglycemic clamps, their glucose disposal had fallen by 50%. So they became about twice as

01:25:17.980 insulin resistant with getting four hours of sleep a night for just two weeks. Whoa. This is but one

01:25:25.020 study. There are other studies that have looked at other elements of this. And I, I sort of assumed

01:25:30.920 that the extra fatness I got in residency was just due to my dietary deterioration. But I now believe

01:25:37.920 that it was also in large part due to the lack of sleep. The other thing is it's very difficult to

01:25:45.320 consolidate memory with sleep deprivation. The hippocampus is very sensitive to this. And of

01:25:50.380 course that's where we consolidate memory. So I'm kind of amazed at the gaps I have in my memory from

01:25:56.340 that period of my life. Yeah. When you said that, that you look back on it as one of the best periods

01:26:01.380 of your life, I thought, how do you remember it? Like when I get that fatigued and the funny thing is I'm

01:26:05.760 the same with film school. It's the same thing. You just no sleep, dude. It's ridiculous. And

01:26:12.560 at the end of that, like the bonding is intense because you're all going through this hard thing.

01:26:17.520 You're having to help each other. You're all exhausted, but you find a way through. It's

01:26:20.400 amazing. And then in the end I was like, Jesus, there are just patches where I'm like, I don't

01:26:24.820 remember man. Cause you're so tired. It's crazy. So do you meditate? Do you have a practice

01:26:30.640 around spirituality? Ooh, it's interesting. You think of meditation as spiritual. So I meditate

01:26:36.220 like a fiend. It totally changed my life. And I don't know where I would have been in my more

01:26:40.400 stressful years without it. I'm so grateful. And for a long time, because I'm a fool, I didn't

01:26:47.980 meditate and didn't want to, didn't want to hear about it. Sounded so feminine. Like I was a guy

01:26:53.280 really needed to toughen up, which is weird. This come up like three times in this. And so I,

01:26:58.640 yeah, I just resisted it. And then I met a Navy SEAL named Mark Devine. I don't know if you've

01:27:01.900 heard of him. Amazing dude. And he was like, stop being a jackass meditate. And so I went and watched

01:27:07.060 his videos and I thought, all right, if it's, you know, a Navy SEAL, tough guy, let me give this a

01:27:11.600 shot. And I was like, Whoa, once I understood it's taking me out of the sympathetic nervous system

01:27:17.360 into the parasympathetic. And that diaphragm breathing actually causes that trigger to happen,

01:27:21.880 that it's mechanistic. I was like, okay, all of a sudden I get this. This isn't woo woo. This is like

01:27:27.920 some hard biology and allowed me to really begin to train down because I am incredibly anxious by

01:27:34.940 nature. And when I was in business and constantly out of my element and learning, and I was always

01:27:39.720 behind, I developed just massive anxiety. And so I had to find a way to like figure that shit out.

01:27:46.440 And so meditation has been just inhumanly helpful. So now if I'm like about to go on stage or something

01:27:52.580 guaranteed, if they're like doing the announcement, I am meditating diaphragm, breathing, getting into a

01:27:58.680 nice calm state. Like it is crazy to me how well it works. And now like, I'm an evangelical for this.

01:28:04.040 Like I want to bite the microphone. So people will listen if they have not tried meditation. Like

01:28:07.680 it is such a game changer, such a game changer. Cause it gets rid of what I call the background

01:28:11.980 radiation. Like all that just sort of residual stress. You're not even sure what you're stressed

01:28:15.860 about. You just feel uneasy. Something, something's looming. And so meditating, even on my worst day,

01:28:23.660 I can get to absolute zero where I am totally stress and anxiety free just from breathing.

01:28:29.320 It's crazy. Do you have a mindfulness component to that? In other words, is, are you doing a breath

01:28:33.180 meditation where while you are breathing, you are focusing on a component of the breath or, uh, is it

01:28:40.020 more a concentration thing where you have like, you know, sort of a mantra in the background?

01:28:43.500 All breath, all breath, 100%. I don't remember who said this. It might've been Sam Harris,

01:28:48.240 but it might've been somebody else. And I reflected on it and realized it's,

01:28:52.220 it's very interesting. And it's quite true that if you ever consider a negatively valenced emotion.

01:28:58.320 So the reason I throw in the word valenced is because some people get all bent out of shape when

01:29:02.200 you say an emotion is positive versus negative. So just so no one gets bent out of shape, I'll just

01:29:07.500 say negative versus positively valenced. None of them are really rooted in the present. So depression,

01:29:13.500 sadness, anxiety, fear, when you think of all of the negatively valenced emotions, they are virtually

01:29:19.560 all rooted in the past or in anticipation of the future. And I think it was the realization of that

01:29:28.920 and the desire to sort of drown out some of those things that got me very interested in

01:29:33.960 mindfulness meditation, which was this notion of being as present as possible.

01:29:39.620 And I even took it to really interesting depths of, I don't think Sam made this point, but somebody

01:29:46.220 made this point, which was even pain, physical pain that we endure is actually more about the

01:29:53.780 anticipation of worsening pain or progression of that pain or non cessation of that pain than it is

01:30:01.960 the actual moment. And I was like, that can't be right. So Josh is my body worker. So one day Josh

01:30:08.480 is working on me and there's this one move he does on me that is quite literally upsetting.

01:30:13.840 It's when he gets into my serratus and my subscapularis and it's unbearable on many levels.

01:30:20.700 Definitely there's some nerve impingement going on when he's getting in there. He's probably like

01:30:24.520 yanking on some of the hairs on my armpit or something. It's just the whole thing is unbearable.

01:30:28.280 And one day when he was doing it, I was like, all right, try the exercise, focus on your breath

01:30:34.560 and focus on the pain at exactly that moment. But don't think about how much it's going to hurt in

01:30:40.860 two more minutes. Just think about it in that moment. And I was totally amazed by that experience.

01:30:46.460 And it was like a very interesting tool that I have since continued to experiment with anytime I find

01:30:53.400 myself in extreme pain, especially pain that sort of lasts for a long period of time.

01:30:59.200 And it definitely makes me understand that there are probably people out there who can have total

01:31:03.720 mind control over pain. Speaking of mind control, I remember the first time you came over for dinner,

01:31:10.780 you guys came all the way down from LA down to San Diego. We all had dinner. And I remember you

01:31:15.300 talking about mind control. You were like, I want you to come and work for Quest because I just have

01:31:20.600 mind control over you and some shit like that. Do you remember that? Yeah. So how do you think

01:31:25.600 about that? Have you refined your thinking around mind control? Yeah, I think that really comes down

01:31:31.220 to energy output. I think that you really can. It's almost distressing how much you can move people

01:31:40.060 in a direction you want them moved if you're willing to put in the time and the energy, but you really

01:31:45.140 have to play a super long game and oftentimes not worry about what's their best interest.

01:31:50.600 And that just does not suit my personality. So I found that far better to think about like,

01:31:57.540 who are the people that are resonant with what I'm doing, right? Here's what I'm doing. Put it out

01:32:01.580 there. Tell people, get them excited, show them my excitement, let them understand my vision,

01:32:05.340 where I'm trying to go and then go. Okay. Of these, you know, 20 people that I would love to do something

01:32:10.980 with, who's the one that steps forward and says, I want to do that with you. That to me is far more

01:32:15.880 interesting. So I used to say, and this is what you're thinking about on a long enough timeline,

01:32:20.960 I can get anyone to do anything. And I just don't even think about it like that anymore,

01:32:26.080 even if that's true. And maybe it is like, if you give me a hundred years, like maybe nobody can

01:32:30.500 resist, you know, my wily charms, but it just stops being interesting. It's like, I want to do stuff

01:32:37.060 with people that want to do it. I want to do it with people that are excited about it. And so,

01:32:40.840 yeah, I take a really different approach now. And my thing now is about sharing the vision.

01:32:46.400 Here's what I'm trying to do. Embody the excitement. Cause I know how infectious it is

01:32:50.460 neurologically. I know that it, we really do share energies. And if you're around somebody

01:32:54.920 and you're amped up, like they're going to pick up on that, they're going to get more energetic.

01:32:58.820 And I just know that people like to be around people that make them feel more alive, that make

01:33:02.780 them feel better about themselves, that feel energized. So finding people like that. And then I'm just

01:33:08.280 really not a fan of having to be a raw, raw leader. Like I want to play my part in the creation of

01:33:15.300 whatever we're creating as well. So I would much rather do that, like create the environment,

01:33:20.260 create the enthusiasm, show people we're trying to do this and it matters. And you're going to be

01:33:24.040 able to get that fulfillment that we talked about. It's going to be hard as hell, but we're going to

01:33:27.420 be able to do it. Like, I want to create that environment and then go and fight too. So that's far

01:33:32.060 more interesting than having to like, you know, Jedi mind tricks and shit and like trying to really

01:33:36.660 understand what you want and make sure I'm setting things up so that you're getting that. And I'm

01:33:40.120 always just thinking about you, man, far better to say, this is the environment. This is what

01:33:43.940 we're doing. Who wants in, but I'm sad that you never came to work for quest. I did really want

01:33:50.340 that badly, dude. Yeah. Like I know people are listening to this podcast right now because they

01:33:54.860 believe in you, but I'm just saying that belief is well-placed. You are one of the most intriguing

01:33:59.500 human beings I have ever met the way your mind works. I almost stopped you earlier because you were

01:34:03.300 saying something that's so fucking interesting that I was like, just the way you think through

01:34:07.100 a problem captures my imagination. So there are just some people, dude, I have a total man crush

01:34:13.300 on your brain. It's amazing. Well, I appreciate that very much, Tom. And I can't thank you enough

01:34:21.220 for making the time today. And I really want to apologize for the fact that you're doing this

01:34:26.620 before I'm doing your show. And I am, I promise you, I will, uh, if, if you still want me to be

01:34:33.080 on, I'd be honored. I'd be honored to be on. And I can't wait to, I don't know how I'm going to top

01:34:37.680 this. I don't know what you'll ask me about. That's interesting, but that, that will be fun.

01:34:41.560 Trust me. We, we will crush that. I would have you on in a second. So whenever we can make that

01:34:45.520 happen, we'll make it happen. And anybody listening to this, that likes themselves and Peter Atiyah,

01:34:50.620 you will want to hear that interview because I promise I will take this guy to some very

01:34:54.220 interesting places. So where can people learn more about you if they're listening to this and

01:34:58.900 they're new to you at Tom bill you. So my last name is spelled B as in Bravo. I L Y E U. It's

01:35:06.260 across all socials. Uh, my primary two are going to be Instagram and YouTube. So yeah, you have a

01:35:13.100 pretty prominent YouTube channel, don't you? Dude, I'm proud of that damn thing. So YouTube is hard to

01:35:18.480 win at. It is hard to build a meaningful audience and we've done a really great job and it's just growing

01:35:23.360 crazy. By the time people hear this, I'm sure we'll have crossed 400,000. Wow. Um, yeah, I didn't

01:35:28.000 realize it was that big. Yeah. Yeah. It's really, really been special. And we just pour our heart

01:35:32.920 and souls into making an awesome show and getting people like you on the show. No BS. Like I'm just

01:35:38.060 really, really proud of what we've done there. And one of my favorite stories. So I'm walking in a

01:35:44.260 Vegas casino and a 51 year old black man jumps out in front of me crying. And he was like, dude,

01:35:51.380 you changed my life. And I thought this is the world we live in now. Like you can make

01:35:56.620 content. Like here's the thing. And I think it goes without saying I'm not paid to be on

01:36:01.520 the show. I'm on this show because I believe in you and I believe in what you're going to

01:36:05.600 bring to people. And I think this is going to be special. And I'm so glad that you did

01:36:09.200 it because meeting you once randomly changed my life. The fact that you're going to make yourself

01:36:17.240 available through the show to the millions of people that I hope find this, it's incredible.

01:36:22.600 Like what an insane time that we live where extraordinary people can be rewarded for sharing

01:36:28.240 that kind of stuff. Jesus, dude, I know how much you charge to be a concierge client. So like,

01:36:33.000 it is crazy. Like it's so amazing. So yeah, I love it. I love what we've done with YouTube. I love

01:36:38.400 them proud of the show, which is called impact theory. Just the people that have come on and share

01:36:42.900 their wisdom is bananas. So yeah, very cool. Thank you, Tom. Thanks for having me.

01:36:49.560 You can find all of this information and more at peteratiamd.com forward slash podcast.

01:36:54.800 There you'll find the show notes, readings, and links related to this episode. You can also find

01:36:59.880 my blog and the nerd safari at peteratiamd.com. What's a nerd safari you ask? Just click on the

01:37:05.900 link at the top of the site to learn more. Maybe the simplest thing to do is to sign up for my

01:37:09.900 subjectively non-lame once a week email, where I'll update you on what I've been up to the most

01:37:14.600 interesting papers I've read and all things related to longevity, science, performance, sleep,

01:37:19.560 et cetera. On social, you can find me on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook all with the ID peteratiamd,

01:37:26.080 but usually Twitter is the best way to reach me to share your questions and comments.

01:37:29.740 Now for the obligatory disclaimer, this podcast is for general informational purposes only and does

01:37:34.340 not constitute the practice of medicine, nursing, or other professional healthcare services,

01:37:38.840 including the giving of medical advice. And note, no doctor-patient relationship is formed.

01:37:44.800 The use of this information and the materials linked to the podcast is at the user's own risk.

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01:37:54.200 diagnoses, or treatment. Users should not disregard or delay in obtaining medical advice for any medical

01:37:59.620 condition they have and should seek the assistance of their healthcare professionals for any such conditions.

01:38:04.680 Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, I take conflicts of interest very seriously. For all of my

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The Peter Attia Drive - August 06, 2018

#08 - Tom Bilyeu： nutrition, fasting, meditation, mindset, immortality, and the secret formula of fulfillment

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