#104 - COVID-19 for kids with Olivia Attia
Episode Stats
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Summary
In this episode, my daughter Olivia interviews me about the coronavirus, SARS-CoARS-V2. We talk about what it is, how it affects us, and what it's like to be infected with it.
Transcript
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Hey everyone, welcome to the drive podcast. I'm your host, Peter Atiyah. This podcast,
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my website and my weekly newsletter all focus on the goal of translating the science of longevity
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head over to peteratiyahmd.com forward slash subscribe. Now, without further delay,
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here's today's episode. Hey everyone, welcome to a special edition of the COVID series. This is
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going to be COVID for kids. So my guest today is my daughter, Olivia, and this was mostly her
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interviewing me, but also a little bit of a discussion in me asking her some questions as
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well, all pertaining to the coronavirus, but really through the lens of questions that Olivia had.
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So if you're a listener of the podcast and you have kids, this might be the one episode that you want
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to sort of bring your kids into because hopefully it answers a lot of the questions that they've
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probably been asking you. And maybe these are some of the questions you don't have answers to.
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So anyway, I hope you enjoy this special episode of the coronavirus series, Corona for Kids.
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Hey dad. So I know you've done podcasts about questions people had on the coronavirus for adults,
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but I thought we could do one for kids. So the first thing I'm going to ask you is what even is a virus?
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Well, a virus is a sort of living kind of living thing that has genetic material in it,
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which all of your cells have genetic material in them, but these viruses, they can't replicate on
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their own. So you know how like you get big, your hair gets longer, your nails get longer,
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you get taller. All of these things are cells in your body that are dividing.
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Yeah. Well, viruses can't divide without using another body. They don't have the machinery,
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so to speak, to divide on their own. So they have to infect a host. That's the term we use to do that.
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Now it's important to understand how small a virus is. Do you have a sense of how small they are?
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That's right. No way. So a virus is like about a hundred nanometers wide. Do you know what a
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Yeah. It's like a billionth of a meter. So if we were to cut one of your hairs,
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and you can barely see the end of your hair when it's cut, right? How many coronaviruses do you think
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you could line up across the tip of your hair if it were cut?
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So we can't see these things, but these virtually invisible things without special types of
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microscopes, they get into our bodies and the bodies of other animals, and they use our body
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to make more copies of themselves. And a lot of times when viruses do that, they don't really
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hurt us or hurt the person or animal that they're infecting, but sometimes they do. So when you think
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about bad colds that you've had or nasty GI bugs that you've had, that's just a virus that is causing
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that pain and suffering to you as part of its replicating process.
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Okay. So I'm sure a lot of people are wondering this. So how do you know so much about this virus?
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Well, I don't think I know that much about it. I mean, to be clear, I didn't know anything about
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it until a couple of months ago. So there are people who spend as much time as I spend thinking
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about longevity or Formula One or all the other things that I love to think about. There are people
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who spend their whole lives thinking about these viruses. And so I just have talked to a lot of
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those people. And that's how I've learned the little bit that I think I've learned in the last
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couple of months. But the reality of it is I'm pretty much a noob.
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Well, I think we have a pretty good sense that this virus, this particular coronavirus, and to be
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clear, there are many coronaviruses. But this particular one, which now has a formal name,
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that name is SARS-CoV-2. So just like your name is Olivia, that guy's name is SARS-CoV-2.
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It causes a disease called COVID-19. That virus probably originated in bats. But the most recent
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evidence we have suggests that it went from a bat to something called a pangolin. You know what a
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mini ant eater. Like picture a little tiny scaly armadillo looking thing that eats ants and little
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insects. And these are little tiny mammals that are actually quite protected in China because they're
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endangered. But there is some illegal poaching of these things. And people do, I believe they use
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their scales for medicinal purposes and things like that. So I think the current genetic analysis
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suggests it went from a bat to a pangolin to a human. The first person was infected with that in this
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part of China called Wuhan, probably in about November of last year. So relatively recent.
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So like you said, this isn't the first time corona has showed up, but it's definitely the worst time,
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Yes and no. I think it depends how you define the worst. It's definitely infecting a lot of people,
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but there have been other coronaviruses that have shown up, two in particular in the past 15 or 20
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years that have been more lethal, meaning a higher number of the people who got the infection died.
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So one of those was called SARS and one of those was called MERS. And those would kill somewhere
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between 10 and 30 percent. SARS about 10 percent, MERS about 30 percent of the people who got it. That's a
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huge number, right? That means in the case of SARS, one out of every 10 people that got the infection
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died. In the case of MERS, one out of every three people died. Think about that. But the good news is
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those viruses didn't spread very far, so very few people got them. So in some ways, those were worse
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viruses. Of course, this one is spreading a lot. At this point in time, we've got over a million
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confirmed cases. But of course, we probably have tens of millions of unconfirmed cases. But there
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are other coronaviruses that come and go every summer that have infected many more people than
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that, but they just don't cause anything more than a miserable cold. All right. So like you were saying,
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this has been a problem before, but do you think it will show up again after this, assuming it's all
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resolved at some point? You mean this one in particular or another one? This one. I think it's a bit too
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soon to say, but probably. Could another one show up? Yeah. All right. So this next question I'm going
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to ask you is probably the one all kids are wondering. When do you think we're going to be
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able to go back to school? I don't really know. If I really had to guess, I don't think you're going
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back to school this year. All right. And I've heard some people say that not even until maybe next
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year. Is that true? Oh, I think it's really too soon to say. I know that sounds like a cop-out
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answer, but there are so many things we don't yet know. Like we don't actually know how many people
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have this infection. And it could be that a lot of people already have the infection and they're
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doing really well and it's not causing that much harm. And in that case, people who aren't at very
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high risk for getting very sick could mosey on back to school and move back into work and things like
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that. But it's also possible that we have to be much more careful and much more concerned.
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And if that's the case, then this quarantine might be something that lasts a little bit
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longer. Yeah. So I've just recently heard that the US has hit more cases in China. Why do you think
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that is? Well, that's a long story and it's one that gets my blood a little bit boiling. So I don't
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like to talk about it too much. I mean, basically we didn't do a good job. Of preparing for it?
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Of a couple of things. So we didn't heed our warnings. So we had very clear warning signs
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that this virus was out there and that this virus was very infectious. Furthermore, we had lots of
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evidence that it could easily spread outside of China, but we didn't take a bunch of steps we should
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have taken. Now, part of this is not just what we did or didn't do in the last couple of months,
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but really this is a much bigger problem that goes back a number of years. We don't really have
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the infrastructure in place to prepare for something like this because for example, we don't have,
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you know, a national stockpile of the type of equipment that doctors and nurses would need
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to be protected from this if they're taking care of a bunch of people that got sick.
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At the beginning of January, when the Chinese government and Chinese scientists were able to
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figure out exactly what this virus looked like, that's called sequencing. That's when you can
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actually look at the, basically the fingerprint of what this virus looks like. So you have a very
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unique fingerprint. If I took one of your hairs and took it to a lab, they could tell me exactly
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what your DNA sequence looks like. And you're the only person in the world that has that. So we would
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know exactly what Olivia looks like. And similarly, at the first week, second week of January, the
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scientists in China had already done that for this virus. And that would have been a great time
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to have doubled down on developing tests in the United States or taking tests that others had
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developed and making sure we had enough of them because testing is a really important part of
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this. That's a big way that you can help understand how people have it and don't have it and how you
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need to isolate the people that have it from those who don't. So without having all those systems in
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place, we were also a little bit late to the party in terms of understanding what to do when people
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showed up and were infected. So we had our first case basically at about the same time that a country
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like South Korea had their first case. But we have now had more than five times the number of deaths
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for an adjusted population. Meaning for every million people in the United States versus every
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million people in South Korea, we've already had five times the number of deaths, even though we both
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started at the same time effectively. And that speaks to sort of not being able to put these
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measures in place. All right. So you were saying that you weren't very prepared and listening to
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the warning. So how could we have been better prepared and more aware of this? Well, I mean, I think
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it's sort of what I just said. Part of it is non-specific type of preparedness. So it's having
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the infrastructure in place to deal with pandemics. So it's having like a pandemic
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preparedness program that is well funded, that has all of these things that don't seem that
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interesting when you don't need them laying around ready. And then part of it is very specific to this
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case, which is this is a really tough virus because it spreads pretty aggressively, more aggressively than
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say the flu virus. And look, I just don't think our leaders were doing a great job.
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Do you think it would have helped if people started to quarantine sooner than they actually did?
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Yes, I think it would have, especially in places like New York, New Orleans, probably Florida.
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So there were places where a lot of things just went kind of sideways. Like New York has a high
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density of people. You've been there a bunch, you know, what New York is like compared to San Diego.
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You can imagine that a virus that can spread basically by you breathing on somebody is much
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more likely in New York. Imagine you're sitting on the subway. You have these people that have to
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commute in and out of Manhattan every day from these different boroughs. So you just have a high
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population that's close together that has these commuting challenges where they're in close proximity to
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others. And so all of those things would lead to kind of an amplification. And I think that in some
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ways, New York has done the best job it could. But it probably started a little later than would have
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been ideal compared to what we now know from other countries. Yeah. So some people are saying they just
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want to get the virus and be over it, meaning they won't have to quarantine anymore. And they've already
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been exposed to the virus. So it would be a lot easier. Does you think that's a good idea?
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Yeah. So the technical term for that idea is called herd immunity. You know what a herd is?
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Probably when you get it so that your body is used to it.
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Well, yeah. But like the herd means everybody, you know what I mean? So the idea would be
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once you have chicken pox, do you remember when you had chicken pox when you were a kid?
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You're lucky you didn't have to get it that bad because you already got a vaccine for it. But when I was a
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kid, we didn't have a vaccine for chicken pox. So when we got it, it was really bad.
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But once you get the chicken pox or once you get the vaccine for it, you're not really going to get
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it again. I mean, technically you can get a cousin of chicken pox called shingles when you get a lot
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older. So that's what people want. They think they won't be able to get it again. That's right. But
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there are a couple of things. One, we don't really know exactly what the immunity looks like. In other
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words, we don't know that once you get this coronavirus, if you recover from it, and let's say you're one of
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the majority of people who recover from it. And to be clear, most people who get this virus recover
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from it. At a minimum, 80% do, but it could be significantly higher. It could be 95%. We don't
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know if that immunity is going to last them for another six months, another year, another five
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years for the rest of their lives. We don't know. The second thing is there are certain people who
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are at high enough risk to get sick from the virus that you might not want to take the chance of
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letting them just get infected. So you and your friends are at virtually no risk from this virus.
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In fact, in the United States, as of this time, there is not a single person your age who has
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died from this virus. That's good. Yeah. It's good for you, but you have to understand that you could
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still transmit it to somebody. So if you lived with your grandparents and you were back at school and
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you and all your friends had it, and obviously it would be great that none of you would get very sick.
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But what if you came home and gave it to one of your grandparents or gave it to somebody
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who was at a higher risk and then they transmitted it? So it's a bit complicated to think of that,
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but it's definitely something that might end up happening and we just don't know it yet. In other
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words, we don't really know how many people have already been infected.
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So you're saying different age groups can have a better or lower chance of getting it?
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I don't know if it's a better or lower chance of getting it, but it's definitely a better
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or worse chance of dying from it or being hospitalized for sure. So the younger you are,
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the better you are, your risk is. And the fewer diseases you have, like high blood pressure
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or diabetes or things like that, the better your chances of surviving it.
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All right. So what should a proper quarantine look like? Because I know that
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while we're quarantined, we sometimes order things from Amazon and when they order the packages,
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we have a specific way of taking them out. Like we don't bring them inside. We have to wash our
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hands and take it apart outside. So explain that kind of.
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Well, do you know why we're doing that, by the way? What are we afraid of?
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Right. There is a chance that there could be some virus on the cardboard box. So let's assume
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that the person delivering the bag or someone or the box or the person who touched it a few hours
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earlier has the virus. Maybe they don't even realize they have the virus and the virus is
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sitting there on the cardboard. And then that cardboard box gets dropped off at your door.
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So there was a study that was published about three weeks ago that actually looked at putting
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the virus on different surfaces, cardboard, plastic, steel, copper, those sorts of different things.
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And it started to measure how long the virus could survive on those surfaces.
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And what came of that study was that this virus can live for a day, maybe two days on cardboard.
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So what you want to do is sort of assume that anything you come in contact with
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potentially has some amount of virus on it. Now, that study doesn't really tell us you can get
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infected from that. Because maybe there's not enough virus that's really surviving that you're
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going to get it all over you. And if you don't take appropriate precautions, it's going to,
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you know, infect you. But it seems to me, at least, that the safest thing to do is to assume
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that anything that shows up has some amount of the virus on it. And that virus could potentially
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infect you. So what we're doing is we're opening Amazon packages outside. We're cleaning off the
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contents of them and then just washing our hands really thoroughly. And you remember how long we
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have to wash our hands for? 20 seconds. You got it. And that is a lot longer than it feels like,
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So is there anything else we haven't covered that you think kids should know about this virus?
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I don't know. But there is something I do want to use as an example for kids to think about.
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Because I've been thinking about this a lot with you as we're going through this. So you can probably
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tell. I mean, do I seem like I've been more irritable in the last month than normal?
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Yeah, I apologize for that. But I think part of the irritability, I feel, is just a frustration
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in what I consider to be kind of incompetence. And I think it's worth using this as a teaching
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point. Because you asked a question, how did we get here? And the underlying theme to how we got here
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is, we didn't really do the things we needed to do before it was too late. And so why does that
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happen? I mean, is it because we don't want to? I mean, I think the point here is, it's sometimes
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really hard to do things for which the payoff is far in the future.
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But that's kind of what you're explaining this morning, right?
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Yeah. So we're talking about the thought experiment of imagine mom and I never once
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harped on what you ate, what time you went to bed, how much you looked at your iPad,
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how much TV you watched, when you exercised, what sports you played, what activities you did,
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when you did your homework. Like imagine you could do anything you wanted. You could watch as much
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flash as you wanted. Okay. That sounds kind of fun. You could eat as much ice cream as you wanted.
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Think through how much fun you could have if you were allowed to do anything you wanted.
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I think it would be fun for a little bit, but then I would obviously in the long run,
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it would be really rough. But how do you make that trade-off?
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You have to have discipline now so that it can benefit you later.
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But that's hard. It is really hard. You know it because you and me and we all struggle with this.
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We make these decisions today that don't always feel good. You make these sacrifices. Remember
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what Jocko's, what do my Jocko shirts say on them?
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That before the enemy or that one, but discipline equals freedom.
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It means the more you have discipline, the more free you'll be.
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Right. And so when you think about why it is that you can't just eat all the ice cream in the world,
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even though in the moment it feels so good, it is undoubtedly more pleasurable to eat ice cream
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than not to eat ice cream. It is undoubtedly more pleasurable in the moment to watch as much flash as
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you want and do as much TikTok as you want and screw around on your computer as much as you want.
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Those things feel awesome. I can't deny that. But the problem is you will pay the fiddler tomorrow.
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And life in some ways is a balancing act between enjoying things for the sake of enjoying them in
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the moment and indulging, but also being responsible enough to make sure that when something goes wrong,
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I think if you're a kid and you're listening to this, it's important to understand that the adults
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screwed this up. This is a great example of the adults not doing their homework, not saving their
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allowance, not eating their vegetables, not exercising, just completely dropping the ball.
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And now we're paying the fiddler. That's a problem. I think it's a huge problem. And that's probably
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the thing that on a deep level has me most upset right now. It's that a whole bunch of innocent
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people are suffering badly because the people who are supposed to be in charge, the grownups,
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so to speak, couldn't make the long-term trade-off. They couldn't sacrifice in the moment. They couldn't
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invest the time, the money, the infrastructure in science that was necessary to make sure that when this
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happened, we were prepared. And so I have to hope that this is a wake-up call. And I have to hope
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that when this is over, maybe you guys will be the ones to tell the adults, quit screwing around.
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So we were talking about this this morning and an example you used was that Reese was watching a show
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called Biggest Little Farm. And the people in that show, they had to grow their own food. They had to
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produce everything by themselves. And if they didn't wake up one morning, even if it was raining and
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they didn't go outside and garden or help their animals, then they wouldn't have food in the long
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run and they would starve. So they kind of had to do what they needed to do for the future.
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Yeah. I'm glad you remember that example. I think that's another great one is farming. Think about
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if you have to go out there and plant your crops and go and tend to them and tend to your animals. And
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if you just for a month decide, eh, I don't feel like doing it. I mean, I'd rather just screw
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around. Well, you're going to starve when winter comes. Another question I had was, I was wondering,
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is this China's fault? It has become incredibly convenient to blame China for all of this.
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Consider the following scenario. You don't drive yet, but you know what it's like to be in a car with
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me or your mom, right? I know it's like to be in a race car. Yep. So imagine you're driving down the
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freeway and somebody changes lanes in front of you and cuts you off and they don't signal.
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Is that their fault or your fault? That's their fault. That's right.
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Now, how you respond to that is up to you. I could honk my horn or I could just.
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Well, okay. Yeah, that's true. But I'm saying like how you respond from a safety perspective is up
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to you. If you're paying attention and they cut you off, I mean, that happens like 10 times a day.
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So if you're doing everything right, you're probably not going to die when somebody cuts you
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off on a freeway. So like if you're texting and they cut you off, that could be a worse situation.
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Exactly. Now imagine for a moment that you're speeding, you've had a couple of drinks,
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you don't have your seatbelt on, you're texting and somebody cuts you off.
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True. Because that person did cut me off, but I was kind of not doing the right thing either.
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You were not doing your best to be ready for the situation.
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And that's kind of how I think about this. To sit here and blame China for all of this,
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even though that's clearly where the virus originated. And it's probably in part due to
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practices of food handling that we would never do in this country. And all of those things are true.
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But again, we have to take responsibility for all this. So China may have cut us off
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in the freeway, so to speak, but we were driving too fast. We didn't have our seatbelts on. We had
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a couple of drinks in us. We were texting and we were looking back to check on our kids in the car seat
00:26:13.420
and tell them to stop arguing. I mean, we bungled every aspect of this. And I just think that in
00:26:20.940
the moment when you're spinning out of control, it's easy to say that guy cut me off. But at some
00:26:27.120
point you got to be like, I was doing something wrong too.
00:26:29.840
Yeah. You were doing a bunch of things wrong. I want to ask you a bunch of questions now.
00:26:34.540
So Olivia, we went into quarantine a week before your school closed.
00:26:39.540
That was about as upset as I've seen you in a long time. When you went to school
00:26:42.960
on a day and I said, Hey, Olivia, this is going to be your last day at school for a while.
00:26:47.180
So can you please bring all your books home? What did you think when I said that?
00:26:51.700
I thought you were absolutely out of your mind because I've learned a lot about the virus since
00:26:57.020
then. And at that point, when you said that, I didn't even realize how bad the coronavirus was.
00:27:04.180
And I didn't start learning about it until a couple of weeks ago. And none of my friends
00:27:08.740
were leaving school like I was. So I thought it would be really weird. I thought it would
00:27:12.940
fall behind in schoolwork and I thought I would be the only one. And I thought it was very odd and
00:27:19.820
I couldn't leave the house. So I couldn't do basketball. I couldn't go to drums. I couldn't
00:27:24.360
do anything. I couldn't do singing. And yeah, I was really upset at first. But then the next day,
00:27:30.040
a few of my friends dropped out and then the next day school closed.
00:27:32.680
I don't think school closed till the following Monday, but I think they told you in that they
00:27:36.380
said a few days later, Monday would be the last day.
00:27:37.880
Yeah. So a lot of my friends started dropping out and I was like, oh, oh, okay. Because I thought
00:27:43.000
me and my brother would be the only ones that weren't going to school. And the first few days,
00:27:46.980
all my friends were texting me, where are you? Why aren't you at school? And then kids started
00:27:51.280
dropping out super fast and then school was closed.
00:27:55.180
So what's been the hardest part of this for you?
00:27:58.480
No friends. Because I'm a really social person. I usually have a million playdates.
00:28:04.540
And so not seeing my friends has been really hard for me, probably. And also no sports because
00:28:10.020
basketball season just started and I couldn't play any games until next fall now.
00:28:14.980
What's been the hardest part about working, doing online classes and stuff?
00:28:20.080
Definitely having questions because usually at school, if you have questions,
00:28:23.580
you can ask the teacher after class. But now that teachers have things to do after each class,
00:28:29.520
you can't really stay online because you have another class right there. It's kind of hard to
00:28:34.040
explain, but online, it's hard to ask questions because everyone's talking over each other.
00:28:39.360
It's total madness. Like I have a headache after each class. And yeah, I do not like online school.
00:28:47.020
That's interesting. So when you go back to school, assuming you go back to school in the fall,
00:28:51.380
back into actual school, what will you appreciate now that you probably didn't appreciate in the
00:28:57.760
past? Just school in general. Like me and my friends are saying how we took school for granted
00:29:02.740
and we didn't realize how amazing it was to have school because now we wish we had school.
00:29:10.820
That's interesting. What has been the best and worst part of your dad not traveling for the longest time
00:29:20.260
ever? Well, I have to work out a lot, so that's not fun. But I do like you being home more because
00:29:27.260
you made crepes this morning and you're just here to help more. And I think it's really fun that we
00:29:33.580
have a puppy during quarantine. So that's like really lucky that we got her a few weeks before
00:29:38.480
quarantine started. And so, yeah, I mean, quarantine is good and bad in some ways.
00:29:43.960
Yeah. What's the deal with this puppy? She pees every three seconds of her life. Yeah.
00:29:51.060
Is that ever going to stop? I hope so because, yeah, you could always walk around the house and
00:29:56.500
if you step in a puddle, you know what it is. So you don't regret that we got her? No, I don't.
00:30:02.020
I really like her. You don't think she's too much work? No.
00:30:05.120
How many watts are you up to on your zone two workouts now?
00:30:10.860
65 to 70, but I think I can start going higher because I'm doing longer rides now too.
00:30:15.900
Yeah. What was your last lactate level at 70 watts?
00:30:23.000
Pretty good. Do your friends think you're a freak that your dad does lactate testing on you?
00:30:27.220
They don't really know that part, but they do know that I work out. They just don't know what
00:30:31.060
lactate is, which I didn't until a couple months ago. Well, Olivia, thank you very much for making
00:30:38.280
the time. I know you've got a lot of things going on today. I hope we answered questions that your
00:30:44.040
friends would find interesting. Yeah, me too. Is there anything else that you want to know about
00:30:48.860
the coronavirus or that you think your friends might want to know? I think we've covered it all,
00:30:53.480
but yeah, I think that's it. All right. Do you think there's any chance we'll get Reese on the
00:30:58.800
podcast? Oh, that would definitely be crazy. I mean, I'm sure he'd love it. And you guys talk
00:31:04.520
about gardening and trash cans and what else does he do? Trains, Legos, probably talk about that.
00:31:12.220
We'll see if maybe he'll hear this one and he'll decide he wants to do one too.
00:31:15.900
Yeah. Speaking of which, I have online drums to go to now.
00:31:24.840
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