#16 - Formula 1 (with Paul Conti)： the best drivers, Ayrton Senna, and the cautionary tales of driven individuals
Episode Stats
Length
1 hour and 3 minutes
Words per Minute
197.96167
Summary
Dr. Paul Conti is not only the most brilliant psychiatrist I've ever met, but also one of the most amazing Formula One fans. In this episode, Paul and I discuss our mutual love of Ayrton Senna, and why we named our son after him.
Transcript
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Hey, everyone. Welcome to the Peter Atiyah Drive. I'm your host, Peter Atiyah.
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The drive is a result of my hunger for optimizing performance, health, longevity, critical thinking,
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along with a few other obsessions along the way. I've spent the last several years working with
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some of the most successful top performing individuals in the world. And this podcast
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is my attempt to synthesize what I've learned along the way to help you live a higher quality,
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more fulfilling life. If you enjoy this podcast, you can find more information on today's episode
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Welcome to the bonus episode of The Drive. My guest for this episode is my dear friend,
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Dr. Paul Conti, who is not only the most brilliant psychiatrist I've ever met, but also one of the
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most amazing Formula One fans. Paul and I, on this relatively short episode, at least short for
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the metrics of this podcast, we just go on and talk about all of our favorite things in Formula One.
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But primarily, we talk about the history of Formula One and who are the drivers that we've
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loved the most. And of course, one of the things that we discuss in this podcast is that Paul and
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I have a number of things in common, not the least of which is our birthday, but our love for
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Ayrton Senna. And so we talk at length about Senna. And I, again, I think some of you who might be
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thinking, well, I'm not really that interested in Formula One or driving. I still think you'll find a
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lot interesting because one of the things that Paul does in this episode is he ties into this
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discussion of the great Formula One drivers, a lot of the psychological component of what made them
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great and what draws us to them. I will say that, well, as I've talked about before, my son,
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one of my sons named after Ayrton Senna. And I remember when I suggested to my wife that we
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should name him, name our son after Senna, her first thought was who? And then her second thought
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was what? But over about six months of this pregnancy, as she got to learn more and more
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about Senna, she was kind enough to humor me as I exposed her to Senna and his greatness.
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She not only came around, but really not only fell in love with the name, but fell in love with the
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idea of Senna and the man that he was. So not that we have any expectation that our son will go on to
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be a race car driver, but needless to say, little Ayrton is a special little guy and he's named after
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someone that I've looked up to and hold in a very high regard. And so I think in this episode,
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we get into some of why that's the case and also some of the other just luminaries of this sport.
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So you won't probably learn more about the relevance of Formula One in a shorter period of time than you
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will in this podcast. And again, even if you're not interested in driving, I really encourage you
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to listen to this because it will likely spark some interest. And I think the show notes have some
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amazing links to things that if anybody gets an itch scratched by this, they're going to dig a little
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bit further. So with that, welcome to the first, what I would call bonus episode of The Drive,
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where Paul Conte and I spend a little bit of time going deep on our favorite topic outside of
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living better and living longer. So Paul, we have a lot of things in common, not the least of which
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is our birthday. We share the same birthday, which is great because you're one of the few people whose
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birthdays I remember. I just, I'm like a moron when it comes to birthdays. I have like an encyclopedic
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memory of many things except for birthdays. But of course, every time I wake up, usually you're
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calling me to wish me a happy birthday, which is reminding me that it's my birthday. I usually wake
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up to a text from you. The other thing we have in common is a, I think what can only be described
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as an obsession with arguably, though I would say it's not arguably definitively the greatest driver
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in the history of driving. I remember it was one of the first things we bonded over when we got to
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medical school, because at that point it had only been three years since Senna's death.
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Uh-huh. Amazing. And for those of us who, you know, cherished him, it's a day that all of us
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remember, you know, Sunday, May 1st, 1994. What is it about Senna that you loved so much?
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I'll try not to be long-winded, but to answer both facets of that. On the one hand, I'm not sure that
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I'm aware of anyone, certainly not in a way that I observed and experienced with interest as it unfolded,
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right? Who has been more single-minded about achievement. You know, this is a person who
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did absolutely everything that was required for not just the highest level of achievement,
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but for moving that bar of what the highest level of achievement means. And for people who
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don't follow, like, what Formula One was then, is this is not like somebody sitting in a car and
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just driving it around, right? The physical stamina, you know, the training, the ability to control
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oneself physically and mentally, right? The ability to hone reflexes and to multitask in ways that push
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executive function, push mind and body to the very limits, I've never seen anyone do that. And
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that's complemented by his incredibly intense passion. I mean, this is someone who, yes,
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was very religious, but that religiosity, I believe, was expressed in passion for people who were
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suffering in his home country, right? He was Brazilian. And, you know, he was born wealthy, born
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privileged, yet had such a sense for the struggle of people who were up against things that he wasn't
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up against. And I believe that that unity with people who didn't have, you know, even one billionth of
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the things that he had into money, fame, adulation. But I don't believe that he felt any different. I
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believe he felt fortunate and he felt a sense of almost messianic drive to be the best and make
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things better for people. And that leads to the second facet, which is ultimately, that was his
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undoing. He died in the context of that drive, right? Of that inability to step back from the brink even a
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little bit. So I think that he's a model for the best in us. And also that we can have so many good
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qualities and ultimately be the architects of our own downfall by not being able to step back and
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realize our own humanity. Like he didn't think he was better than anyone else. But there was another
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level in which I think he believed because of it was so incumbent upon him to make things better for
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everyone else that he had to be superhuman, right? I mean, it's a way of not feeling better than
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everyone else in an arrogant way, but feeling better in a way that isolates us and means that there's
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always more to do and we never get to rest. Right. There was more responsibility on, he felt, I get the
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sense, of course, never having never met him, but just having read everything that one could read about
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him and watching every video and documentary, he felt the weight of a nation on his shoulders.
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Exactly. Yes. And if you feel the weight of a nation on your shoulders and you don't realize
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that that just has to be a shared responsibility, but you take that all on yourself, then you can
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inadvertently be the architect of your own demise. I don't think many people realized until after his
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death how much he gave back to Brazil. He kept a lot of that secret. He had a lot of education for
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underprivileged children in the, you know, in the inland part of Brazil. I mean, so, so, I mean,
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it's just one example of so much of what he did was so humble, you know, and, and I mean, it's very
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interesting, you know, Sid Watkins, right. Who was the great neurosurgeon, right. Who, who also was by the
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greatest understanding of the personalities of these incredibly driven people, you know, just described
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a serene humility in him that this was someone who lived an unobtrusive life when left to his own
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devices to live it. And you put them on camera, you could say, okay, look, here's lifestyles of the
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rich and famous. That's not who he was inside. And it's, it's, you know, it's fascinating to know
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that, that amidst that peace and tranquility was such a desperation to do things that were superhuman.
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And there's a lesson in that, right. The lesson that goes back to mythology, right. Of
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flying too close to the sun. Right. And it is a lesson for people who I think have great abilities
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and great perseverance and great ability to torment themselves in order to continue to persevere that
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if we don't recognize our limits, um, we run great risk of not achieving our goals. And then Ayrton
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Senna who lived to be 90 could have done what, how much for Brazil, how much for the world. So I,
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I see him as really amongst the greatest of us for his capability, his drive, his compassion,
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his just living in shared humanity. But I also see him as emblematic of the foibles that are,
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you know, not just foibles, the dangers that we can represent to ourselves and the need for
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not just humility about ourselves, but also for compassion about ourselves. And like, look,
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there's a limit and we got to take care of ourselves if we're going to know if we're going to keep
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going for ourselves and for whatever it is that we care about.
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Virtually every formula one driver today. So you look at the heroes of today, Lewis Hamilton,
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Sebastian Vettel, Ricardo, all of these guys, if asked almost without exception to a man,
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they'll all say the same thing that Senna's death has been the single most important change in formula
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one. It was the turning point in the safety of that sport. Do you remember what they found in
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his car when he died at Imola? Do you remember with a flag, what he had? They found that the,
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the Austrian flag, which is unusual. Why would a Brazilian have been carrying the Austrian flag
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on the day he died? A person who's like every cell was about Brazil had an Austrian flag. And of
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course we know that the day before that Roland Ratzenberger was Austrian had died in a formula one car
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and how shocking and distressing that was to Ayrton Senna and his drive to win that race. Why? I mean,
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everything he wanted to win was to be the best and to glorify Brazil, right? Here it was about,
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I think, such an intense compassion for this person's loss of life that I think it blinded him to the
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limits, to even his own limits. I mean, even, you know, he had limits, right? We all have limits.
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And I think it blinded him to those limits. And I think subsequently, it's just my opinion,
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it's blinded formula one to, in a sense, the, the need for some element of danger to allow people
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to distinguish themselves. And, you know, that might sound like an odd thing to say is coming
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from the perspective of preserving life. Right. But, but I think that, you know, there were times when
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that sport was way too dangerous and just way too many people lost their lives, but to go so far to
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uniformatize it and to try and eliminate danger, some of what has been eliminated was, you know,
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the, the limits of human ambition and human bravery that I think were an important part of
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distinguishing people who really were heroes. And in part, they were heroes because they were taking
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some risks. And again, I'm not a fan of let's bring back, you know, 25 or 30% of formula one
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drivers are dying behind the wheel. I mean, obviously that is, that's not okay, but there's
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been such a push in the other direction. And I think that there was just really a terror in the
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sport. It was a terror that see that, that then sought to eliminate, you know, the, the opportunity
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to push oneself too far. But I think in doing so, there's a, there's an arena of human endeavor
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that can be tremendously inspiring that I think was, I think was changed too much. And I think,
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you know, people don't have as much, they don't have the opportunity to be Ayrton Senna. Right.
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And I think in some ways, in order to have the opportunity to be him, there, there has to be the
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opportunity to take the risks that he took and hopefully to learn from his example and take them
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in a way that results in, in excellence and survival. But I think the sport in many ways has
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taken away that, that ability. And I think part of why people hearken back to that is it was a
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turning point that really changed the sport. I think in a way, too many ways. Yeah. It's
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interesting. I don't know that era just seems remarkable. I mean, when you think about the
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rivalries that existed, you know, Mansell and PK and Prost and Senna, it was, I don't know,
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it's hard to say. I mean, like I could talk about Formula One forever. I know you and I think you
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and I actually have, we actually have done this, but, but there really is something about the sort
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of the mid eighties to, to mid nineties. That was kind of a remarkable year. I mean, I, again,
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not that it's about the championships because many people will still look at Jill Villeneuve having
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never won a championship as one of the greatest drivers ever. And we should spend, we could park that
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for a moment on the side, but I really do. So first of all, even though Senna won only quote
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unquote three championships, in my mind, he won four. So the disqualification in the Japanese Grand
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Prix, I look at that disqualification the same way I look at the Hagler Leonard fight, which is just,
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they just, they made a bad call. There is no way he should have been disqualified in that. And so
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he died as a four time champion. But if you do the math on it, you realize that the season he died,
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which was the third race of the 1994 season, even though the Williams car was a fraction of what
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it was the year before, what most people don't realize is Hill went on his teammate, Damon Hill
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went on to finish second to Schumacher that season by a point. Basically it came down to the last race,
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which tells you that a lot of the kinks that were going on in the Williams car of that year,
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uh, we're getting worked out. Yeah. In other words, had Senna not died, I'm positive he would
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have been the 1994 world champion. And I suspect he would have been the world champion all the way
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till about 97 because you did, you ultimately had Villeneuve, Jacques Villeneuve won in 97,
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Damon Hill won in what, 96, all in the Williams car. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this is, so people talk
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about, well, okay, you know, many years later, Schumacher went on to win so many championships
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and that's, that's impressive. I think most people still consider Senna the greatest driver of all time,
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but you know, Senna could have won seven world championships in an era when that was unheard
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of. Right. I mean, you, you have to look at any achievement by era, right? I mean, think about
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Fangio won five world championships in a time when most people like didn't survive five seasons,
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right? You couldn't live. So, so how can you compare that to a time when safety was at such a height and
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the Ferrari was a dominant car? I mean, like, you know, you can't, there's a comparison then that
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truly is apples and oranges. And that era of like mid eighties to mid nineties, you know,
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was an era of like incredibly fast machines and machines that weren't always on parody,
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but machines that were on parody enough that the driver could make the difference. And you really
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saw like what I think of as titanic struggles between exceptional personalities. So the same thing
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that drew me to, you know, the interest in, you know, the people behind the second world war to an
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interest in like in people who are struggling, whether it's with glory or with no one watching,
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right? Is the same thing that, that to me was that the attraction of formula one that, you know,
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you had titanic personalities of Prost, Mansell, Senna. And I think that, you know, it's interesting
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that Damon Hill won the championship that year. And, and again, I think that the vast majority of people
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would say he was not the caliber of driver of Mansell, Prost, or Senna, but look at the caliber
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of human being. I mean, here's a person who grew up with this incredibly dashing debonair father,
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right? And, you know, you see, and he was around the paddock as an infant, right? And when you see
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pictures, you know, you see Damon Hill wasn't cut in the mold of his father, right? He's probably cut
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more in the mold of his mother. You know, you see these pictures of him kind of standing close to his
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mother, looking in awe at his father. Yeah. Who just looked like a movie star, right? I mean,
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he, right. It's what I said, a handlebar mustache and he's a rower. And just, he was
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such a, you know, a model of what it meant to be a man in that era, right? And despite not naturally
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having those characteristics, I think physically or personality wise, Damon Hill won the world
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championship anyway. And like, he went back in that Williams after Senna was killed. You know,
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I think that, you know, Damon Hill's story is a much quieter story, but I think it's a tremendous
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story of being an exceptional human. And I think that's what appeals to people who really,
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you know, love that era of the sport is, I mean, you and I love, we're infinitely infatuated by
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exceptional people. We want to understand them. We want to learn from them. In some ways we want
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to venerate them. And I think there's something that's really, there's something that's good about
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that. But, you know, it kind of, maybe drawing all this together, you know, there's, there's also
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something in us that I think at times wants to idealize them. And then therefore, in a sense,
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idealize what we're doing, you know, and the truth is that, you know, Senna's death was avoidable.
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And I don't mean it was avoidable because they could have made that track dumbed down. It was
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avoidable if he had driven less fast, I think. You know, I don't know that, I don't remember you
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and I have really ever talked about this in great detail. I mean, I have a pretty strong point of
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view on why he died. I'd be curious to know yours. So I think the official answer that came out of
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the trial was that basically the crash on the first lap that led to the safety car coming out
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allowed the tires to cool and he basically lost traction. Now I've, you know, there's a,
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there are a couple of really interesting videos on YouTube that have tried to dissect this in 10
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different ways. But I got to tell you the theory that I find most compelling, I actually think the
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steering column broke before he went off the road. Okay. So I actually think, because as you know,
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Senna modified the steering column in his car. So he had like an extra six inches of a steering
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column in there and it was well, so there, he had a separate point of weakness in his steering
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column. And I actually think it broke. And I say that because when you look at the film of the
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onboard of him going off just before it cuts out, you can see him violently turning the wheel with
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no effect, but this is before the impact. So there's no dispute that the steering column broke.
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That's a given. The question is that it break before or after the collision. And if it broke
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before the collision, it's hard to argue that that's not the single most important
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part of why he crashed. What's your thought? Again, what do I know? We're fans offering our
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amateur opinion, but my read of that is different, right? And again, who knows, but you know,
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think about the Williams before that year, the active suspension. Generally regarded as the single
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most technologically advanced Formula One car in the history of the sport, including up until this
00:19:32.540
day, even though that was 25 years ago. I mean, you could do one little thing to like put it a tiny
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bit off balance and the car adjusts. I mean, that car was, was like science fiction in terms of its
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sophistication. And sure, all the teams were trying to do that, but, but Williams, Williams took it to
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another level. So then, okay, what happens? They say like, take all that stuff away. And I think through
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no fault of the Williams or the team, that car was a beast without that, right? Because it was built,
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right. So it was undriveable. And I think, um, and some of the things, you know, that Damon Hill said
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about driving were really scary. Like that car was on a knife edge and like, it was a terrifying car to
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drive. Yeah. Senate did not finish the first two races of the 94 season, even though he was leading
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both because he just lost control of the car. And when you watch those spin outs, you're like,
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that's the type of spin out I would do in a car. Like that's not something that the world's best
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driver would do. Right. Right. Which, which I think means that like most people would say,
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okay, look, if I'm going to drive this car, cause again, we're talking about a level of talent and
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bravery that I cannot imagine, right? That, okay, they're going to drive it and they're going to
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try and drive it fast. But that's a different thing than driving it on the absolute edge.
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Villeneuve style was, how do you know where the limit is? You go over it and you fly off the track and
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you figure that out. Like that was not the way to drive that car and survive. And I think that
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he knew that, but I think he forgot that when Ratzenberger died. And, and I think that that was
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the cause of the, so you think he went around that corner just a little too quickly. I do
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given the tires, basically given the tire temperature, is that what you think it came down to?
00:21:07.340
Right. I think given all the complex factors, right, including tire temperature, all the things that
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had happened, I think he went too fast. And I think that there was sort of the hubris of brilliance
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and the need to make something right that, you know, to win that race. I mean, imagine Ayrton Senna,
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had he won that race and then he drives around the track with the Austrian flag. I mean,
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I am not sure that a human being can be glorified more. I mean, you know, think about at that point,
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you know what I mean? Senna had a superhuman status. I mean, there were people in lots of
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places, not just in Brazil that actually felt like maybe he's immortal. If the Brazilians loved him
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the most, you could, I think you'd have to make the case that the Japanese loved him the second most,
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right? Absolutely. He was a god in Japan. Absolutely. I mean, as you see those pictures and he's like
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getting off a plane, people like fainting and, you know, things that, okay, we like saw with the
00:22:00.420
Beatles, but you know, but there was a lot of like hysteria and, you know, around, I'm not trying to
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say anything negative about people fainting when the Beatles got off the plane, but, but this was like an
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adulation of a single human being for his tenacity, you know, his, his ability to say like, there's
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never, there's never enough that's been put into succeeding. So imagine him and the glory that,
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you know, that he would have brought. Now, again, you could say, well, what's the glory? I mean,
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you know, does Roland Ratzenberger need the glory, right? But, but it is meaningful. I mean,
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I think it would have been meaningful in a way of, that no one would have ever forgotten and that
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would have meant something to his family and his friends and would have meant something forever.
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I mean, that could have been potentially one of the most memorable moments, if not the most
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memorable moment in the history of the sport. And I think he was so driven to do that, that he
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attempted to do something that was superhuman. And I, and I think that cost him his life.
00:22:53.700
You know, there's so many things about that day that just blow my mind. Obviously there are
00:22:57.740
interviews of him on that day that he died in the paddock and he was not himself.
00:23:01.680
And Sid Watkins has said that, right? He knew him so well.
00:23:04.600
Yeah. He, he even tried to talk him into retiring. He said, you know, Ayrton, you've done it all.
00:23:10.160
You have nothing left to prove. And Sid more than anybody else knew the dangers of the sport
00:23:18.020
And I think he was also afraid that not only is Senna going to take one more chance,
00:23:23.840
Right. Right. Exactly. And I think, and I think that's what frightened him as he realized,
00:23:29.880
You know, it's interesting when you think about Jackie Stewart's last race was a non-race.
00:23:34.840
He didn't race his last race because his teammate, Yacht Wrent was his teammate.
00:23:42.300
His teammate died in qualifying for that race. What was it? Was it Watkins?
00:23:48.140
Yeah. Watkins Glen. I mean, I love watching interviews of Jackie Stewart talking about that. And he was just
00:23:52.980
like, that was enough. That was it. It was over.
00:23:56.680
Yep. And again, I don't know. I would not give anything to sit down and ask the question of
00:24:02.560
Jackie Stewart. Right. But, you know, here's a man who started driving when, I mean, if I'm
00:24:07.820
remembering correctly, I think there was a 30% survival rate, like a 70% death rate. Right.
00:24:13.000
When he started driving cars and, and he was so brave, like he worked to make safety better,
00:24:19.060
but my God, who wouldn't when seven out of 10 people aren't surviving.
00:24:21.860
So he was incredibly brave. And I don't think that changed. I don't think his bravery changed.
00:24:29.120
I think he had a sense of being paternal to Severe. Severe was younger. Jackie Stewart
00:24:33.820
was nurturing him. And I think his sense of enough.
00:24:35.840
Jackie Stewart loved, I mean, he was, he wanted to give him every piece of knowledge he
00:24:43.020
Yeah. And I think, you know, there's, there's a different story there too, right? Which is
00:24:47.500
like, how can we parse out the bravery of Jackie Stewart versus Ayrton Senna? I mean,
00:24:51.060
when we're stratospheric. And one of them was a death, Ratzenberger's death, I think,
00:24:57.600
told Senna a lesson that I believe is born of trauma. I mean, I think that think about the
00:25:02.440
drive in Senna and it was a drive. There had to be something in him of, of fighting some
00:25:08.240
sense of not being good enough that he had to save his country, save the world. And I think
00:25:13.060
that that had fatal consequences as opposed to Jackie Stewart, who I think he seemingly
00:25:17.800
is a more balanced human being, right? Who recognize in the death of Severe, like it's
00:25:22.760
time for me to stop. And I think the different lessons from, from that death are indicative
00:25:28.120
of, I think the different character structures of those two men. And again, I have no basis
00:25:32.580
for saying that other than being a fan of the sport and reading things and trying to thinking
00:25:36.140
about it. And I mean, there was clearly something, there was a demon inside of Senna, right?
00:25:40.560
I mean, I just don't think people flog themselves like that. You know, people don't just run
00:25:45.820
in the heat with their uniform and helmet on, you know, until they like fall over. And then
00:25:50.220
someone like, okay, at that moment, you can't go any farther. Someone puts you in a car and
00:25:53.380
you go back and get rehydrated. I mean, like, you know, there was a way in which there was
00:25:57.460
something messianic in him. And I'm not sure that there can be messianic things.
00:26:00.380
Do you remember the, um, the Brazilian Grand Prix that he won in, was it 93? When his, um,
00:26:07.080
yeah, the, the steering, the, no, the, uh, he got stuck in basically like, that's right.
00:26:11.920
What year was that? The, um, I don't remember if I don't remember after I don't remember what
00:26:17.700
year it was, but it was the gear. Uh, he was stuck in a certain gear or something. It was a gear that
00:26:22.840
I remember thinking, I was just thinking about this the other day. I was like literally driving
00:26:26.240
around the other day. And I thought, what would I do if my car was stuck in fourth? Like if this was
00:26:31.420
the only gear I could be in, I don't even know how I would drive. And yet this guy manages
00:26:35.500
to win the Brazilian Grand Prix when for a third of the race, he's stuck in some high gear.
00:26:41.280
Right. And, and I think whether it was that, that made the car harder to drive, but like,
00:26:45.700
you know, he had muscle cramping, right from head to toe. And I think part of that was the heat
00:26:50.120
and the extra difficulty of, you know, of yanking that car around the track. Right. It made it so
00:26:57.740
difficult to drive that I'm sure he understood like, how do you keep the revs up? How do you actually do
00:27:01.500
this? Right. In a way that like, again, you or I would get passed by bicycles. Right. Right.
00:27:05.620
But he's still able. No, no, I would have just stalled. I mean, I just, I wouldn't have been
00:27:08.040
driving. Right. And, and I think the drive, I mean, in my view of, of human performance in a way
00:27:15.000
that we can witness, right? Human tenacity in a way that we can witness. They had to pull him out of
00:27:20.780
the car. Yeah. When you see footage of that film, you've never seen him in that kind of pain.
00:27:26.600
No. He couldn't hold up the trophy at the end. Do you remember? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And he said
00:27:31.660
something about, this is in front of Brazil. Right. And he said something to his mother and
00:27:36.020
father, right? About like not to touch him. That's right. His father was trying to hug him
00:27:39.760
after the race. And he just said, no, don't touch me. Don't touch me. Yeah. And, and, you know,
00:27:43.580
that to me is the, is the kind of bravery that we at times don't get to witness. Right. It's a kind
00:27:48.160
of bravery that's like legendary in wartime. Right. You know, it's a kind of bravery that I think
00:27:53.320
we respect so infinitely. And I don't think we get to see it. You know, I mean, I've, I've talked
00:27:58.980
and, and this is not the time to go into it, but you know, of a, uh, an uncle of mine who's a war
00:28:03.540
hero, right. Who, you know, when they were shooting at him, jumped out and went and got the guy who'd
00:28:08.380
been shot. Right. And was decorated and like did things that to me are like unimaginable. Like,
00:28:13.300
how do you, how do you do that? And I don't think that we, we know what to make of that. Like
00:28:18.080
we've been fortunate not to be in those situations. Right. So we don't know, like, what would I do?
00:28:22.680
Could I do that? Would I do that? And we don't have a metric for that in a way that we can
00:28:26.760
understand because we know we're not, we don't understand like how it's in a trench and you're
00:28:30.580
being shot at and somebody has been shot and they're screaming and like, you know, that's,
00:28:34.620
I think that's unfathomable, but I think things like Senna's achievement in Brazil and Senna's
00:28:40.760
drive, like internal drive in San Marino gives us some insight into like what, you know, the human
00:28:48.120
tenacity under incredible, incredible unimaginable pressures. And, and I think that there are ways in
00:28:54.660
which it resonates with us because we get to witness that in a way that otherwise it's inaccessible
00:29:00.140
to us. And we get to see it not just in its glory, but also in its fear and its terror and, you know,
00:29:07.120
in the reality of it, right. That, you know, for every person who jumps out of a trench and saves
00:29:12.380
somebody and gets a medal, you know, how many people are there who jump out of a trench and are
00:29:16.660
dead. So I think witnessing that provides a metric in some ways of what human beings can do. And I
00:29:24.360
think it's, it's, it's great for us to appreciate and to even venerate that. But I think the danger
00:29:30.480
isn't identifying with it too much because I think it's one thing to do that in wartime and maybe people
00:29:36.400
do that who, who don't have trauma as a motivator. It's different, right. But I think doing the things
00:29:42.040
that, that Senna did and ultimately the things that led to his death, I see that in, in rooting in
00:29:47.560
some demon, something traumatic. And again, I obviously don't know what that is, but something
00:29:52.260
inside of him that couldn't be good enough through what he had achieved, couldn't be good enough by
00:29:58.380
celebrating Roland Ratzenberger, even if he finished second or third, there was a drive in him that,
00:30:04.640
that went against rationale and went against survival instincts. And I think that there's, you know,
00:30:10.420
part of the reason I, you know, I, I'm so interested in him is it's, there's a lot of
00:30:15.940
warnings in there to us too. And again, not to sound like a broken record, but I think so much of that
00:30:20.880
comes down to, to trauma. And my guess is that sure traumatic things happen to people, but you look at
00:30:26.020
the things, you know, Jackie Stewart was caught in a car, you know, stuck and there's gasoline and it
00:30:31.100
could blow. But anytime he like that man went through traumatic things, but I think ultimately,
00:30:34.980
you know, his decisions don't seem to me to be made through the lens of something traumatic.
00:30:39.620
And I think Senna's do. And again, that may be me trying to over-apply my heuristic, right?
00:30:45.400
But, but that's, you know, for what it's worth, that's how I see it.
00:30:48.780
You know, hope, hopefully there's someone still listening to this who's not, who wasn't necessarily
00:30:52.960
interested in racing, but who will become, you know, I, I feel like there's so many things I want
00:30:56.940
to link to. I mean, for me, the two best there's, there's like a hundred videos and documentaries
00:31:02.380
on formula one that I love, but the two that stand out the most to me are the first and foremost,
00:31:07.520
And the second is one, the number one, which is actually the very first time I saw that was with
00:31:13.800
you. Yeah. You and I watched it together like five or six years ago. Uh, it was late on a Saturday
00:31:18.660
night and I don't know what made us decide, like, we're going to stay up late and watch this, but
00:31:22.280
oh my God, you know, what's interesting. I don't remember if they show it in either of those
00:31:27.000
documentaries. They certainly don't show it in one and I don't even know if it comes up in Senna, but
00:31:32.940
I don't think so. In the, in the rain at Donington?
00:31:34.640
Yeah. I mean, it's generally regarded as one of the greatest laps in the history of formula one.
00:31:38.700
I mean, we've looked at it so much and I can't remember like, what is it in? What isn't it in?
00:31:42.460
Either way, we'll link to it here so that people can see it. But, uh, it is, you know, it's funny
00:31:47.580
because when I first started caring about racing, I had never raced myself. So it's a totally different
00:31:53.060
animal once you've actually been in one of these cars and it completely like my appreciation for Senna
00:31:59.640
for anyone who does this as a profession is two to three logarithmic orders of magnitude higher.
00:32:09.380
I simply can't understand how they do it. And so, especially to look at something like Donington,
00:32:14.400
where you realize like he passed what? He passed three guys in one lap of a rainy track.
00:32:25.080
And it's not three dudes. It's like, you know, Alain Prost. It's like, it's amazing dudes, right?
00:32:32.940
Three of the best drivers on earth and three of the best cars on earth under conditions of which
00:32:38.320
And you somehow managed to pass them all from number four position. It's just, again, I can watch
00:32:45.120
that lap a hundred times. And all I want to do is say, you couldn't make this up. If this were in a
00:32:51.760
movie, you would say, that's silly. We don't do that in movies. At least draw this out over 10 laps
00:33:00.980
Yeah, yeah. Keep it realistic. This is so stupid. The other thing that fits that description is his
00:33:11.000
Yeah, because it would have been in the MP44, which would have been 88.
00:33:19.220
So what's a normal gap in between the first, second guy and qualifying at a course the size
00:33:24.900
of Monaco? Like a tenth of a second, a hundred, you know, five one hundredths of a second to a
00:33:29.720
tenth of a second, right? Do you remember how much he was ahead of Prost that year in qualifying?
00:33:35.580
I just remember. It's like, it may as well have been minutes.
00:33:39.920
Right. Like an impossible amount of time. And to someone who'd look, anyone who's not impressed
00:33:45.400
with that, it's already long stopped listening to us.
00:33:47.940
That's right. That's right. Anybody who's still listening to this, we don't have to explain
00:33:51.380
So a second and a half may as well be an hour. I mean, it's, it's an impossible gap.
00:33:56.920
And the fact that the gap was against Prost driving the same car, right? And one of my
00:34:03.980
favorite videos of that, because you know what's tragic? I mean, there are real tragedies.
00:34:08.040
This is like little T tragic, not big T tragic. There is no onboard film of that lap.
00:34:12.680
Is that right? So the onboard film we will often see is, the onboard film we see of him
00:34:16.960
is, is in that race, but it's not in that lap there to my knowledge. And I hope, I hope
00:34:22.600
somebody can prove this wrong. And if you can, please tell us, there's a case of Topo
00:34:27.180
Chico with your name on it. I do not believe there is any onboard film from the qualifying
00:34:32.800
lap in 88 Monaco in the MP4, four, where he goes a set one, like something like 1.52 seconds
00:34:38.020
faster. I didn't realize that. I thought some of the video that we'll watch of like
00:34:41.700
Senna's greatest lap in Monaco was that lap. So I think they're wrong. I think they're
00:34:45.260
video from the race or other qualifying, not from that lap. But what there is a video of
00:34:52.620
is Prost's face in the paddock as he sees the time. And it's just a look of, are you
00:35:00.800
freaking kidding me? Right. This guy is not for real. Right. Right. I mean, there's a
00:35:07.180
man who, I think one of the greatest drivers in history, who has to have in his head, like,
00:35:11.720
okay, like Senna is great. But if I've gone this fast, what's the fastest he could go?
00:35:15.960
Right. A tenth of a second more, maybe at his best, you know, 5.100. I mean, how could
00:35:21.220
it, to see that, you know, it's just proof of concept of the preternatural ability of
00:35:27.100
Ertan Senna. And, and I think, you know, having exceptional ability at anything is a wonderful
00:35:32.260
thing, but it also can be a dangerous thing. And having preternatural ability is an extremely
00:35:37.540
wonderful thing and also an extremely dangerous thing.
00:35:40.080
There's a video we'll try to link to. I remember sending it to you when it came out. I described
00:35:44.120
it as the finest McLaren propaganda I have ever seen. And McLaren has the best propaganda.
00:35:52.100
Yeah, yeah. I'm all in. I'm a sucker for that propaganda.
00:35:55.680
If I could have afforded a P1, I would have bought one the day that Nuremberg ring came out. I was
00:35:59.960
like, I got to have one. But they have a video of that lap, which of course doesn't show any
00:36:05.540
footage of the lap. But in it, Senna says that may have been the peak of his career. That moment
00:36:12.520
he would go on. He, at the, in fact, he hadn't even won a world championship yet. He won his first
00:36:18.920
championship in 88. I think, yeah, I think the MP44 was his first championship car. I think he won.
00:36:25.380
I'd have to, yeah, I think he won 88, 90, and 91. But anyway, to think that he believes that he was
00:36:32.560
at his best, even before he'd won his first championship, because of that margin.
00:36:37.440
Yeah. It's, it's, it's, it's amazing, right? It's, it's hubris. It's brilliance. Like it's,
00:36:42.740
it's putting together everything that's on the absolute knife edge and getting it right. Amazing.
00:36:48.500
Yeah. I remember they explained this to us, you know, in racing school, which was the difference
00:36:53.500
between you and them is you will very occasionally be able to take a car to its limit very occasionally.
00:37:04.040
And then most of the time you'll go too far and you'll lose control of the car. The best in the
00:37:08.540
world are always at the limit without going over it. It's amazing. And so even my coach,
00:37:14.040
who's a professional driver to this day, when I sit in a car with him and we're trying to go over
00:37:20.560
something. So like, we'll get in the car together and I'll be in the passenger seat and he'll be in
00:37:23.460
the driver's seat and we'll communicate through the radio. Cause of course it's too loud to talk
00:37:26.280
and he'll take me through laps. So we write button willows sort of our favorite place. Cause it's
00:37:30.840
relatively close in Southern California. There are areas there, like in particular, I don't know if
00:37:35.320
you know that track well, but the bus stop, which is a part of that track. I don't, I don't know.
00:37:39.860
This day I still get kind of nervous how fast he's going. Amazing. I'm like, how is he able to
00:37:49.540
control this? And you're really good at this and really experienced and you know the car and it
00:37:52.780
even, it's amazing you to be in the car with him. I wouldn't say I'm really good. I mean, but the
00:37:56.160
point is I'm, I'm not a normal, like I'm not just a lay person who's never been in or driven a race
00:38:00.580
car, but yeah, it just humbles me. It is amazing. And again, I think we celebrate and, and venerate
00:38:08.320
exceptional talent. And I think that's wonderful. Right. But I also, I think we need to be careful
00:38:14.160
about the lessons of it too. You know, that this is like one is as exciting as can be. We're talking
00:38:19.260
about human beings at the limit and it's exceptional and it's inspiring and it's risky, you know, and it
00:38:24.880
really tells us something. It tells us something about human beings that, that we, in some ways we,
00:38:32.100
we want to push ourselves. You know, we want to, we want to admire people who push to the limit.
00:38:37.680
So while we're on the topic of racing, there's another driver who I know a lot less about than
00:38:44.140
you. Uh, but I just remember from some of our, put it this way. I remember when, when you figured
00:38:50.500
out that I was Canadian, which was kind of a funny concept. It's like this guy's from Canada. Like
00:38:56.840
what the hell is that? Um, which of course Americans are secretly so jealous of Canada cause you've got
00:39:04.360
your shit together up there that we like make fun of you to kind of cover that up. So I think that
00:39:08.840
comes from insecurity too, to be honest. But the thing that you loved most about the fact that I was
00:39:14.220
Canadian was Jill Villeneuve. Oh, absolutely. I mean, you might be the greatest Villeneuve fan ever.
00:39:20.760
What is it about Villeneuve that you loved so much? I think a part of it is like, I was a,
00:39:25.560
I was a kid. Right. So when I first was like learning about him, you know, there was,
00:39:29.760
I was so impressionable and so impressed by the glory of utter mastery of something
00:39:37.800
that was really venerated on a worldwide scale. So the fact that like there was no one with as
00:39:45.080
much natural talent. I mean, one might argue, you know, like Stefan Beloff, Fangio, Clark, I mean,
00:39:50.640
Senna, you have to look like there's only a couple people you can even talk about in the same breath in
00:39:55.080
terms of natural talent. And, you know, in retrospect, I think just the utter audacity
00:40:03.300
of him, you know, I mean, this is a guy started off as like a snowmobile racer, right? In Quebec
00:40:07.980
and was so shockingly good that what a few years later he's driving in Formula One for Ferrari. I
00:40:15.560
mean, like this was during an era when Ferrari was not a dominant car.
00:40:20.040
No, I mean, he won in a car that I think he himself described as a truck, but he was so
00:40:26.520
shockingly talented. And in retrospect, I think it's interesting because again, I try and
00:40:32.840
I think if we're going to, if we're going to respect and to some degree venerate humans who have
00:40:40.220
great and at times preternatural talent and are willing to take risks, then we also have to
00:40:46.320
acknowledge that, you know, sometimes the outcome of that is something that isn't glorious, right?
00:40:52.120
That is just simply tragic. And I think, you know, Senna's death, I think was so tragic because I think
00:40:57.480
that is, that's a person who, who did understand the risks. I think in many ways, Villeneuve and I
00:41:04.040
think Beloff, you know, in the, what, how many years, almost 35 years or so that I've been, you know,
00:41:10.700
really following closely, you know, high level motorsports or two people who I, I mean, I'm not
00:41:15.940
so sure that there was any fear in them and that's extremely dangerous. And I think they were
00:41:22.020
Do you know up until, I'm sorry to interrupt, but do you realize that Beloff's Nuremberg ring record
00:41:28.720
I didn't know that. I didn't know that it was broken a week ago.
00:41:33.720
That's a record that stood for like 35 years or something.
00:41:36.080
And we're talking apples and oranges. I mean, in a car 35 years ago, right? I mean, again,
00:41:42.260
okay, the record was broken, but in some ways you have to look and say like, that record
00:41:47.260
His drive on Nuremberg was still the most ridiculous thing ever.
00:41:52.280
Right. Right. So the old Nuremberg ring, right? You know, the most daunting circuit in history.
00:41:56.760
What did Jackie Stewart call it? The green hell?
00:41:58.500
The green hell, I think is, yeah. Yeah. And, you know, like, I mean, there were things that
00:42:04.280
Beloff and Villeneuve did that, I mean, you, you know, you truly had to like not have anywhere
00:42:11.020
in the equation your survival, which is, you know, part of the reason neither of them survived.
00:42:15.680
And again, I think it's just fascinating the, the innate skill and just the utterly undaunted
00:42:22.880
Was Enzo alive when, when Villeneuve died, right? I mean, he, he was, what did he say? He said,
00:42:30.700
he once said something about Villeneuve that was kind of remarkable.
00:42:33.200
Yeah. He, so he, you know, for Enzo Ferrari had been a driver, right? And it was in Tazio
00:42:39.300
Nuvolari, right? That he felt like, you know, Nuvolari was hard to, again, compare. I mean,
00:42:44.460
it was so, so long ago, but when people really talk about the greatest people that have ever,
00:42:49.100
the greatest talents to ever drive a car, Nuvolari is on everybody's list. And in Nuvolari,
00:42:54.000
this like small person, right? Who didn't look like, you know, he would be the greatest driver,
00:42:59.100
but who was unparalleled in his era that Ferrari saw, like, this is the pinnacle of greatness.
00:43:06.260
And it led him to realize, like, he was a very good driver. But like, when you see Nuvolari,
00:43:10.620
you kind of realize, okay, maybe I should stop driving and start building cars. And he really
00:43:15.080
worshiped Nuvolari. And he said something like, who would have imagined, like, I never thought I would
00:43:20.780
see anyone like, you know, Nuvolari died how many decades ago that there's no one else like him.
00:43:25.920
And to see, to find the spirit of Nuvolari again, in this like diminutive elf, like French Canadian,
00:43:31.760
I mean, I think like, was unimaginable to Enzo Ferrari, who, who therefore felt so passionate
00:43:37.640
about Villeneuve, because he saw in him the ultimate of talent and fearlessness and the ultimate in
00:43:45.900
making a car do seemingly impossible things, which is what Nuvolari was known for and what Villeneuve
00:43:52.040
was known for. Villeneuve died in 82, correct? 1982, yeah. It was older, Belgium. It's a bit of a
00:43:58.860
tragic story as well, not unlike Senna's death, in which you think this could have been preventable.
00:44:05.040
What were the circumstances of his death? It involved a teammate, didn't it? Yeah, his teammate was
00:44:09.740
Pyroni, who had a very, very different personality type. Again, I don't want to be careful not to try
00:44:15.780
so go diagnosing people that I that I've never met or treated. But but this was a person for whom ego
00:44:22.200
in the very traditional sense was on the leading edge, really the opposite of Villeneuve, who people
00:44:27.720
describe as like devoid of guile, like he just didn't get why. And you would never like, double cross
00:44:33.740
someone or do something unsavory, right? I mean, you just go out and like, you went on the track.
00:44:38.060
And, you know, Pyroni had done things at Imola, actually, the previous race, that that were
00:44:46.100
deceitful. I mean, he did the team orders where whoever was ahead, like that's that at a certain
00:44:50.780
point in the race. And then Pyroni passed Villeneuve when Villeneuve wasn't, you know, didn't think that
00:44:56.260
that could happen. But his teammate would pass. Right. Because because never in a million years would
00:45:00.120
Villeneuve just like, what I'm going to do? Disobeyed. Yeah. And to win in a way that would then be
00:45:05.120
hollow, right? Like you're in front at the time that the team has decided is when somebody wins.
00:45:09.540
Now you slow down and I pass you. It's like, what's the glory in that? And I believe that he
00:45:14.000
had thought that like, there must have been some mistake. And he like repassed Pyroni, right?
00:45:18.000
And then slowed down again, not even thinking then maybe he did this on purpose. And, uh,
00:45:22.780
and I think Pyroni passed him a second time. I, you know, in Villeneuve's drive then was such a drive
00:45:28.740
to win that at the time he was killed. I mean, it was almost like a 50, 50, which direction is his car
00:45:33.540
going to go. Like you slow down so you don't take that risk that you make the wrong choice
00:45:37.420
and there's disaster. And I think the absence of fear, the anger of having been deceived,
00:45:43.560
um, in many ways, the naivete really led to his death. Although by the same token,
00:45:48.640
I don't think there was anyone driving with Villeneuve who like thought that he was going
00:45:53.120
to retire. I don't think anyone thought that it was like, no one thought that of Beloff. No,
00:45:57.580
no one thought that of Nouvellar. And if I understand, remember correctly,
00:46:00.720
he died of tuberculosis in old age. Right. So that doesn't mean that they were fated,
00:46:05.600
you know, to die in a car, but, but I think that the expectation was that there was,
00:46:10.260
you know, really no concept of self-preservation.
00:46:12.880
You know, going back to Senna, one of the things that amazes me is the idea that
00:46:17.100
there aren't that many examples of athletes in other sports where the greatest of the generation
00:46:23.900
before and the greatest of the generation after still without hesitation, acknowledge him as the
00:46:29.460
greatest. And, and so there's Fangio, Juan Manuel Fangio, who again would certainly be on anybody's
00:46:34.560
short list of greatest drivers of all time, you know, regarded Senna as the greatest. And if you
00:46:39.380
ask Lewis Hamilton, who is arguably today's greatest driver, who is the greatest without hesitation,
00:46:44.960
Ayrton Senna. Right. That's, um, that's amazing. You ask the drivers of Senna's era,
00:46:49.220
who was the greatest? Ayrton Senna. Right. I mean, I remember the interviews of Fangio as an old man
00:46:54.040
talking about Senna saying, and he felt like this was the passing of the torch. This is the one who
00:46:58.680
is better than me. I can remember the interviews, he would say over and over, lo mejor, right? He'd
00:47:02.340
say like the best, like he's clearly the best. And you'd see like his Fangio, you know, as an old man,
00:47:07.900
almost a deity at that point. There's a beautiful picture of Fangio standing on the podium with
00:47:12.960
Senna, holding him, embracing him like a child. You know, he has his hands on his cheeks in the most
00:47:18.600
loving way. Yeah. It's such a, and again, it looks like it's his father or his grandfather.
00:47:23.240
Yeah. It's, it's when you think about validation of someone, right? And, and I think that's because,
00:47:28.980
you know, I mean, look, there's so many reasons for it, right? But because if you look at all around,
00:47:34.500
right, I mean, again, we could split hairs about bravery, talent, and we can look at people like
00:47:39.420
Villeneuve and Beloff and Fangio and Clark and, you know, and Prost, right? And Mansell and,
00:47:45.640
and Schumacher, and you can look at all these people and, you know, there's so many different
00:47:50.020
aspects of ability that, that you can, you know, how do you really judge one versus another without
00:47:55.220
splitting hairs? But, but when you take it all together, there is a picture that emerges, which,
00:48:01.860
which denotes Senna as the best, right? When you combine talent, dedication, you know, understanding
00:48:08.540
of the nuances, wanting to understand why the Japanese engineers, the Honda engineers loved him
00:48:13.220
because he wanted to understand every single thing about that car and, and the engine that
00:48:19.260
was propelling it. He was the ultimate because there was nothing that was anything less than 100%
00:48:26.860
intensely relevant. Every nuance of the course, every nuance of the car, every nuance of the engine,
00:48:32.180
every nuance of the competition, their physical prowess, their experience, their psychological
00:48:36.660
weaknesses, right? I mean, this is a person who approached Formula One, like you or I might approach,
00:48:42.600
like, like saving our family, right? I mean, there's like no nuance that isn't 100% imperatively
00:48:50.800
relevant. And, and I think to be that way and to maintain that really marked him, like, you know,
00:48:56.680
it elevated the talent, the bravery, it elevated everything to the, to the really optimal level,
00:49:01.680
which is why I think, you know, he, you know, that there's reason why the generations all say that
00:49:07.780
he's the greatest, right? And I think it's, it's for good reason. And again, I keep coming back to
00:49:13.040
the idea that part of being the greatest for him was being messianic. And if you're going to be
00:49:19.060
messianic, there's a risk that you won't survive it.
00:49:21.920
I remember Prost would say this in interviews. He, you know, cause it's interesting, Prost and Senna had a
00:49:26.940
completely tumultuous, hostile relationship until the day that he died.
00:49:31.880
Yeah. It's very interesting. You, I don't remember again, I, which interview I've seen it in. I,
00:49:36.120
it might be in one of these documentaries, but pros tells the story of how, cause he had retired in
00:49:40.020
93 after winning in the, uh, the Williams, uh, I guess that year would have been the 15, right?
00:49:45.540
The F15. And now he's a commentator. So Imola that day, the day that Senna died, Senna said on the
00:49:53.740
radio, something to the effect of, I want to welcome my great and wonderful friend, Elaine Prost. It's so
00:49:59.600
wonderful to have you on the radio or something to that effect. And, and Prost commented how he was
00:50:04.460
like so moved by that. You know, they had had such a bitter rivalry and here was Senna paying him this
00:50:10.980
wonderful, gracious, kind compliment. And of course, several weeks later, you know, or several,
00:50:17.120
yeah, probably a week later, Prost is one of his pallbearers. Yeah. But Prost had said many times
00:50:22.100
during interviews, he's like, the problem with Senna is he thinks he can't die. He has this
00:50:29.460
belief, this belief that he has some God given right to win every race, no matter what.
00:50:36.380
That's messianic. Right. And you know, when you think about the personality types, right? I mean,
00:50:43.580
Prost was, as far as I can ascertain, a practical man. I mean, there's a reason why his nickname was
00:50:48.400
the professor, right? Like his goal was, I'm going to win as much as I can.
00:50:52.360
It's okay. It's probabilistic. And yeah, we played. Yeah.
00:50:54.900
I want victory. I want, you know, I want the fame and fortune that comes along with it. And
00:50:59.600
fucking obviously I want to survive it, right? Because like, there's a whole bunch of things
00:51:02.640
to do afterwards. And you know, that mentality running up against a messianic meaning to like
00:51:10.680
everything, right? To every qualifying, every practice session, you know, every, let alone every
00:51:16.560
race, they were so different that I think it was almost impossible that they weren't going to
00:51:23.280
clash in ways that became deeply personal. But when you take them out of that crucible,
00:51:28.680
right? That these were people that ultimately I think had deep respect for the differences in them.
00:51:34.900
I mean, I think in ways, maybe one might say Prost could have used a little bit of Senna and Senna
00:51:39.080
could have used a little bit of Prost. Yeah, but they were oil and water. They wouldn't make something,
00:51:42.640
you know, Frank Williams, from the day he first saw Senna always wanted him on his team. And
00:51:48.720
the reason it took until 1994 was because Prost was there. And Prost had a clause in his contract
00:51:56.900
that said, I will never be on the same team as Senna. Yeah, yeah. So he had to wait for Prost to
00:52:02.900
retire to leave McLaren. Right. Which Frank Williams, I mean, my understanding and from what I've read
00:52:08.360
is, you know, that that Frank Williams loved pitting people against one another. Right. I mean, how did
00:52:14.940
look, I think the most exciting person I ever watched drive, I do think is Nigel Mansell. And,
00:52:22.020
you know, you look at Mansell was considered kind of second rate, right? He was, you know, at a time
00:52:27.080
there were ones and twos, you know, he was the two to Andretti. And I think he was a two to
00:52:31.540
Piquet. To Piquet. He was the two to Piquet as well, right? But when Frank Williams had him as
00:52:37.340
the two to Piquet, that was because, well, Piquet was the acknowledged number one. Right. But it
00:52:42.320
wasn't forbidden. But Mansell was saying, oh God, no. Right. And, and, and Williams wasn't the kind
00:52:47.220
to say, look, you know, you are number two. You have to sit in the number two. Right. He was the
00:52:50.220
kind of, look, you're starting number two, but you want to be number one, you know. Go out and prove it.
00:52:54.540
And part of, you know, Piquet's kind of denigration, I think, you know, his haughty condescension to
00:53:00.040
Mansell is part of what like infuriated him, you know, and, and I think made him, you know,
00:53:05.780
really among the greatest of the greats. I mean, you watch, I believe it's Mexico City. You watch
00:53:10.740
Mansell pass Berger on the outside. I mean, like Mansell did impossible things with impossible
00:53:16.540
aggression. And I think Senna said at one point that they asked him, like, who do you worry when
00:53:20.800
you see someone in your rear mirror? And he said, the only person you worried about was Mansell because
00:53:24.620
he's content to go over you if he can't go around you. I mean, that's a powerful statement coming
00:53:29.840
from Senna. And part of what did that was, I think, the infuriation of being the number two to a
00:53:35.540
condescending number one and wanting to trounce him. That's why that era, I mean, my God, like,
00:53:41.320
it's just unbelievable to me to go back. And I get, honestly, it sounds awful to say this, but,
00:53:46.400
but I much prefer enjoying, enjoy watching races from that area than even watching races today,
00:53:51.580
which isn't to say I don't enjoy races today. And I think this year with, you know, Mercedes and
00:53:55.920
Ferrari both being so close, it's actually quite exciting again. It for, I think Formula
00:54:00.460
One has had a few years of really uninteresting racing because so much of, as you said, so much
00:54:06.180
mechanical, so much of it is in the car now and less of it's in the driver. But, you know, back then you
00:54:12.080
really got to see the difference. Yeah. I think that, that was an era when the force of personality,
00:54:19.660
you think about the difference in personalities of Senna, Prost and Mansell, right? But were there,
00:54:28.060
I mean, are there ever stronger personalities on the face of the planet? And the force of personality
00:54:33.320
could lead to seemingly impossible things. And from my perspective, that was incredibly exciting
00:54:40.200
to watch. I mean, what, what is the limit of human potential in this arena where human potential
00:54:45.400
in terms of physical stamina, you know, cognitive ability, you know, reflexes, you know, the kind
00:54:53.080
of things that, that we most respect in people in terms of being able to do incredible things.
00:54:59.400
It's incredible things in the body and the mind and then putting those together. And then you put
00:55:03.700
that together, you put that together with the force of personality. And I think, again, I think it gives
00:55:09.780
us an insight into things that we usually don't see, you know, like the depths of human struggles in
00:55:14.840
wartime. And I do really believe it's also the depth of human struggle in quiet situations that
00:55:20.480
no one cares about, right? I mean, I really do believe that, that I think that we get an insight,
00:55:25.360
not just into, you know, the people who, you know, win purple hearts, right? But I think also the people
00:55:32.060
who persevere with nobody caring, right? And no one watching them. And I think in many ways,
00:55:39.720
you know, that's one of the greatest models of bravery. And it might seem like odd or weird,
00:55:43.720
or even forced to like, to compare that to things that these people did on a track under,
00:55:49.360
you know, the greatest crucible of, of bringing talent and ability and bravery to the fore. But,
00:55:56.580
but I really, I do see those parallels that I think in many ways, there's a lot of parallels
00:56:01.440
between these people that we're talking about, and people that no one knows their names, and
00:56:05.400
they're struggling quietly. They're struggling quietly for, you know, the next paycheck that puts
00:56:10.560
food on the table. And they're struggling amidst whatever physical or emotional pain they have.
00:56:15.960
And, and I really do mean that. I mean, again, I'm not trying to be forced about it. I don't make
00:56:21.140
come off that way. But, but I think even back when I was younger, seeing this, I realized that there's,
00:56:26.200
you know, there's that this is like human struggle under the microscope, but it's emblematic of all sorts
00:56:33.180
of human struggle that, you know, that, that often is inaccessible to us because it's, it's in a place
00:56:39.180
we can't go, which could be the quiet struggles of the uncelebrated as much as it could be the
00:56:45.720
So one last driving question. I don't know if the video exists anymore on YouTube. I actually ended
00:56:50.560
up just buying a copy of it because I was so enamored by it, but rendezvous.
00:56:55.500
So hopefully we'll be able to find a copy of it and link to it. But if we can't, and there's a good
00:57:01.020
chance we won't be able to, I do recommend you go on Amazon and you splurge and just buy the DVD of,
00:57:07.040
of Claude Lelouch, uh, his, his very famous short film called rendezvous, which you introduced me to
00:57:13.200
when we were in medical school. Yeah. I hadn't actually seen that.
00:57:15.840
Well, that was like a, I mean, it was like the, the automotive equivalent of a snuff film.
00:57:21.460
You know, I don't even know where I first saw that, but I think it was somebody who had
00:57:25.360
some like VHS copy of it or, you know, it was, I mean, it was when we, when we, you know,
00:57:31.480
it was when we first were watching it together, you know, it was this like legendary inaccessible
00:57:36.040
thing. Yeah. That you'd heard about, but never seen. And I still remember we were at Pyle's house
00:57:41.300
when you whipped out either the VHS or whatever, and we somehow watched it. And I mean, we probably
00:57:46.660
watched it 50 times cause you couldn't believe you were seeing this thing. Yeah. So what's your
00:57:53.180
best guess? Who is the driver? You know, I have no idea in part because I had these guesses,
00:57:58.400
but now I think the knowledge of who it was or wasn't has kind of moved ahead. So, you
00:58:04.140
know, my thought that it might've been, uh, Jackie X, for example, like I, again, I don't
00:58:09.240
know if like that's been entirely debunked and it clearly isn't. Um, Despailliers, I, I believe
00:58:15.820
Despailliers was still alive at the time. And, and, you know, the thought of like, okay,
00:58:19.780
it had to be someone who was an amazing driver, pretty, pretty fearless and had to know Paris
00:58:25.120
like the back of their hand. Yeah. And also in an era that, that I think rendezvous is
00:58:30.000
like one of the most amazing things filmed, but, but I also, you know, there's a part
00:58:34.500
of me that I don't want to sound like a school mom that once said, look, they clearly put
00:58:37.780
other people's lives at risk. Right. So like in the craziness of the seventies and in that
00:58:43.220
era of like really being untamed, you know, you would need someone who would just be able
00:58:49.040
to like literally throw all caution to the wind about self and other. Right. I mean,
00:58:53.480
Lelouch was arrested when that film showed. I think cause the thought was that he was
00:58:59.180
driving. Yes. Right. Um, and it was shown. It's made to appear that he's driving at the
00:59:04.260
very end. Cause he gets out of the car, he gets out of the car, but, but having now watched
00:59:07.980
it 87 times on slow mo, it's clear that he, he's, he's superimposed, but he basically sneaks
00:59:15.180
in and looks like he's getting out, but he wasn't the driver. There's no way. Right. I
00:59:18.980
mean, unless he was a closet formula one driver, it's like, how, how could you be that? Like,
00:59:23.520
how could you be that adept? Right. If, if you weren't like one of a handful of people,
00:59:28.200
I mean, that, that would be my take on it again. I, maybe that's wrong, but I think that's
00:59:32.280
why people started looking to, okay, who are the formula one drivers who are like completely
00:59:36.680
fearless, would throw caution to the wind and no Paris. And, you know, and then there
00:59:40.640
were just kind of a handful of names. I mean, I'd love someday to know the definitive
00:59:44.740
answer, but certainly watching it again, I think that's emblematic of an era, right?
00:59:50.660
Of an era when, I mean, I believe that it was the first time when like cameras could
00:59:55.600
be mounted in cars, right? And you could have like stabilized. Yeah. You had gyroscopic
01:00:00.400
technology that basically allowed you to stabilize that. And of course, to this day, there's still
01:00:04.300
huge debate as to whether it was a Mercedes dubbed over a Ferrari, like whether the Ferrari
01:00:08.900
was dubbed over the Mercedes or if it was the actual Ferrari being driven. Right. And again,
01:00:12.900
I don't know enough. I mean, I like, I try and think about like the, the, the sound versus
01:00:17.620
the visual synchrony. Right. And it seems to me like, I'm not so sure how that could have
01:00:21.220
been dubbed. Right. But again, what do I know? Yeah. There's, there's no dispute that
01:00:25.220
the sound is that of the Ferrari. So you're right. The question is, I mean, again, this is
01:00:30.080
now we're getting so deep in baseball. It's like, but, but of course you and I are the
01:00:33.820
only two listening at this point. It's probably safe to say there is not a, another person
01:00:38.820
on earth that is listening. Now you and I are just talking and we happen to be
01:00:41.840
recording. Exactly. Exactly. If anyone wants to know how like boring, pedantic and tedious
01:00:47.940
our lives actually are, this is the perfect indicator, right? We're down to nuances of
01:00:52.820
like whether the Ferrari was dubbed over the Mercedes or vice versa.
01:00:57.740
Well, with that, um, I don't, I think it's, it's really great that, that a podcast whose
01:01:04.560
title is the drive finally gets to have an episode. I'll be at a relatively short one
01:01:09.620
that focuses on driving and there's no person I enjoy talking about driving with more than
01:01:15.440
you. So thank you for that. Thank you. And I hope that, uh, you know, we're going to have
01:01:20.980
lots of things that for, for anyone who, who managed to get through this part about driving
01:01:25.240
and who finds themselves interested or wants to know more about it, we're going to link
01:01:28.560
to some unbelievable videos about all of these great personalities that we've discussed.
01:01:33.060
And if nothing else, hopefully it gives you some appreciation of the amazing technical
01:01:38.320
skill that goes into what these guys have done. Yeah.
01:01:42.920
You can find all of this information and more at peteratiamd.com forward slash podcast.
01:01:48.180
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01:01:53.020
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01:02:23.100
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