The Peter Attia Drive - #168 - Hugh Jackman： Reflections on acting, identity, personal transformation, and the significance of being Wolverine

00:00:00.000 Hey, everyone. Welcome to the drive podcast. I'm your host, Peter Atiyah. This podcast,

00:00:15.480 my website, and my weekly newsletter all focus on the goal of translating the science of longevity

00:00:19.800 into something accessible for everyone. Our goal is to provide the best content in health

00:00:24.600 and wellness, full stop. And we've assembled a great team of analysts to make this happen.

00:00:28.880 If you enjoy this podcast, we've created a membership program that brings you far more

00:00:33.280 in-depth content. If you want to take your knowledge of the space to the next level at

00:00:37.320 the end of this episode, I'll explain what those benefits are. Or if you want to learn more now,

00:00:41.720 head over to peteratiyahmd.com forward slash subscribe. Now, without further delay,

00:00:47.740 here's today's episode. My guest this week is Hugh Jackman. He was a name that a lot of you will

00:00:53.840 recognize, of course, as he's an award-winning actor, but more importantly, he's just an amazing

00:00:57.740 human being and a close friend that I couldn't wait to sit down with. Hugh and I did something

00:01:02.060 a little different this time, kind of like I've done once in the past where it's less just an

00:01:07.600 interview of Hugh and in many ways a discussion between us, though I think I sort of went out and

00:01:12.500 probably get to ask Hugh more questions than he asked me. Coming into this discussion, there were

00:01:16.700 so many themes I wanted to explore and we actually got to quite a number of them. There are a handful of

00:01:20.780 roles that Hugh has played that I think actually get at some of the many themes that I think are

00:01:26.580 interesting with respect to longevity. Two of them in particular, of course, being Logan and the

00:01:31.120 fountain. And we explore those in some detail. But I also talk about just Hugh's drive and what it is

00:01:36.960 that led him to not just his craft, but to pursue it in the way that he's done so. And on the flip side,

00:01:42.480 Hugh asks me a lot of questions, including more questions that I've never been asked before.

00:01:47.820 And I think this probably comes across as a bit more of an intimate discussion than a podcast,

00:01:52.280 but nevertheless, I hope you'll enjoy it. So without further delay,

00:01:55.720 please check out my conversation with Hugh Jackson.

00:02:03.380 Hugh, it's so awesome to have you here today. Although I do wish we were doing this in person.

00:02:07.760 We've been talking about, yeah, we've been saying, well, let's wait and do this in person. Let's

00:02:11.760 wait and do this in person. But between all that's going on, I think this is the next best thing.

00:02:15.900 I mean, the best part of in person, I know the conversation is great, but the cooking is off

00:02:22.200 the charts. You're cooking. You and Jill combined do like a crazy good dinner. There's another whole

00:02:29.980 avenue there for you. I don't know. I still think some of the meals I've had at your place have

00:02:34.640 blown my mind even more. And including the meals I haven't had. Do you remember the day I came over

00:02:38.960 to your place? I think I was on day six out of seven on a fast. And you and Deb really,

00:02:44.820 really thought you were going to get me to cave. And instead I just walked around the kitchen smelling

00:02:50.380 it and regretting it. I respect that. Yeah. Yeah. But I can't really take any credit for the meals

00:02:55.960 of my house. You can take the credit for the ones that are yours. I mean, right down to sourcing the

00:03:02.600 food. I'm impressed. Very impressed. Yes. Yeah. I know you appreciated that. I want to come back to that

00:03:07.280 because there's an interesting story about some of those meals, but this is kind of a different

00:03:11.200 podcast for us. We've talked about this a lot and we thought that what would be fun today is not just

00:03:16.560 that I'm interviewing you, but in some ways that you're interviewing me. And I think that's in part

00:03:20.320 because you're the most curious person I know. And that's evident anytime you are sitting down with

00:03:26.220 anyone. I've watched you interact with so many different people. Even just in the few minutes before

00:03:32.200 we were getting this podcast recording, when you were talking to Nick, you're just immediately

00:03:36.340 obsessed with and interested in every detail of what another person knows and how they've come

00:03:42.780 to know it and stuff like that. And so I think in the past couple of months, as we were thinking

00:03:46.980 about this, it became clear there was no way I was going to be able to get away with just

00:03:50.100 interviewing you because you were going to end up asking me a bunch of questions anyway. So we said,

00:03:54.000 well, why don't we just acknowledge that this is going to be a discussion and not an interview?

00:03:57.300 Yeah. No, it's my favorite way to do it anyway. I often in interviews, no matter what,

00:04:02.500 and I've done a lot, I always try to ask questions because I get bored of talking about myself

00:04:06.920 anyway. And if you think about my job, my job is human nature. If you're an actor and you're

00:04:13.000 not curious about people, it's going to be a real struggle. So I do want to start with this idea of,

00:04:19.560 because it's actually something Olivia asked me yesterday. I said, hey, Olivia, I'm talking to

00:04:23.940 you tomorrow, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And she's, because she's very interested in music.

00:04:28.240 And she said, will you ask him a question for me? I said, sure. She said, when did he know he was

00:04:33.680 good enough that he could make it in his chosen profession? And I said, I don't know. Let me ask

00:04:41.320 him that.

00:04:41.680 I think when I got cast and I got the job at the Royal National Theatre in London. So I'm now 28.

00:04:52.180 I've studied for four years. At college, you certainly don't know that. I mean, the stats on

00:04:57.800 college, and I went to probably one of the top two colleges in Australia, three-year full-time

00:05:02.600 program. The stats are maybe 5% actually make a living from that. So there's 18 people chosen in a

00:05:08.880 year. So I certainly didn't have it there. And then I came out of the gate and got quite a bit

00:05:14.580 of work straight off the bat, which was, I was super lucky. Let's not forget, I was 26. So I needed

00:05:20.140 to work. But when Trevor Nunn, I auditioned for Trevor Nunn for Sunset Boulevard in, sorry, I should,

00:05:29.440 I just give you some context. Sir Trevor Nunn is one of the great theatre directors of all time. And I was

00:05:34.100 a huge fan from his work at the Royal Shakespeare Company, but also Les Miserables, Nicholas Nickleby,

00:05:39.560 you name it. He was just one of the greats. And so when he came to Australia doing Sunset Boulevard,

00:05:46.280 I actually didn't want to do the musical. I wanted to go, I was an actor who'd weirdly got into

00:05:49.920 musicals. And I thought, I'm going to get out because I was getting pigeonholed into that world.

00:05:53.520 And I said to the casting director, listen, I don't want to be in the show. And this is the

00:05:58.940 like the most presumptuous thing I'm ever going to ask of you. But I would love to audition for

00:06:03.620 Trevor. Like he's my hero, but I don't want to do it. So I totally understand if you tell me to,

00:06:08.840 you know, get stuffed. And she said, all right, I'm just going to put you in. So I went along and I

00:06:13.620 auditioned. And Trevor, I could tell it went well. It was like an amazing hour that I spent with him.

00:06:23.420 And unusually, it was in a theatre. So I was there, I had this feeling of what it was going to be like

00:06:28.400 working with him. And I remember thinking, if he offers me this, I'm going to do it because I need

00:06:31.700 to work with this guy. It was just so clear. And really that was the turning point when someone

00:06:35.520 like Trevor Nunn kind of, and then he took me to London to do Oklahoma. That's when I thought,

00:06:41.180 all right, that was the turning point for me. And he was the one who gave me that confidence to see,

00:06:47.460 okay, so you're getting work in Sydney and Australia. Can you make it overseas? And he was

00:06:53.180 the one who gave me that. It's interesting. Is it sort of like being an athlete

00:06:57.880 athlete where, with obviously a different life cycle, but where, you know, you show these glimmers

00:07:03.500 of greatness early on, but you're still constantly evolving in the craft. So for example, consider

00:07:10.200 like a Tom Brady. Everybody loves to talk about, oh my God, you look at him in his combine,

00:07:15.800 you would have never predicted what he could have done. Of course, he's the backup to Drew Bledsoe.

00:07:21.300 Oh, and if Bledsoe hadn't have gone injured in the 2001 season, who knows how long he would have

00:07:27.180 sat on the bench. But then once he got his chance, all of this preparation he'd done in advance,

00:07:32.900 he was sort of ready to unleash it on the NFL. Did you sort of feel that you were in this constant

00:07:37.980 state of pent up potential and you just needed an opportunity to demonstrate it? Or was it much

00:07:44.300 more incremental than that? Still is incremental. I marvel at those people who have the, I know what

00:07:50.940 I have to offer. Give me a shot. Give me the ball. Give me the ball. Like, come on, coach.

00:07:55.340 I marvel at that kind of confidence. I've always had the courage to say, give me the ball, whether I

00:08:00.940 felt like getting it or not. And I realized that that was essential. At some point you get it. In fact,

00:08:06.180 I was pretty scared of drama school and I just had a rule. I just put my hand up when they said,

00:08:10.880 all right, we need someone to do the scene or we do it. Put my hand up because mainly because I

00:08:15.960 didn't want to sit around for an hour and a half being scared while watching everyone else. I just

00:08:19.660 had wanted to go. So if you and I were bungee jumping and I was scared, I'd be like, Peter,

00:08:23.980 I'm going first. So I bet really, and I think some people saw that as courage or confidence,

00:08:30.340 but it wasn't. It was more, I just wanted to make sure that I didn't miss an opportunity to try

00:08:38.380 and to grow. And I think for me, what happened with something like Trevor Nunn, it wasn't like,

00:08:45.440 ah, yeah, I'm going to be great in this or this. I just felt like a thoroughbred running in the

00:08:51.880 paddock. Like, oh, this just feels so good. And by the way, part of my head's going, this is so

00:08:57.120 Trevor Nunn has worked with Judy Dench, Patrick, you name it, Ian McKellen, like the greats.

00:09:01.940 And we were having this kind of great repartee. I could just, it felt like a match. And that

00:09:08.380 feeling of a match just made me go, all right, yeah, I deserve to be galloping in this paddock

00:09:13.780 and hopefully that'll continue. I'm going to ask a question because I can just, you say I'm curious,

00:09:20.160 but I can see your curiosity. What about you? You are one of the most, I'd written down some

00:09:25.020 questions. This is not one of them, but you're obviously one of the most successful doctors in

00:09:30.400 the world and listen to podcasts. When was the moment where you knew that you could look after

00:09:39.680 some of the most demanding, high achieving people on the planet?

00:09:45.760 You know, that's tough. I don't probably the same way that you would say it. It's not entirely

00:09:50.540 clear. I don't feel like I've got to some point where yes, I can do this and everything. I think

00:09:56.580 there's a constant sense of, am I doing enough? Am I learning enough? What am I missing? What am I

00:10:02.060 forgetting? What could I be doing better? How can we make this process better? What I think I can say

00:10:09.000 is it was probably about a year ago that I stopped feeling like an imposter. So that was a big transition,

00:10:15.860 right? That was a big step forward, which is there was this sort of lingering feeling of,

00:10:22.520 what if you're just nowhere near as good as people think you are? And I think I'm over that now,

00:10:28.560 which is- Only a year ago.

00:10:30.060 Yeah, only a year ago to get to the point of it's okay. Nobody is perfect and you're not

00:10:35.820 representing yourself to be all knowing and you're not an imposter.

00:10:39.860 Was that the drip, drip, drip of achievement or was there a crystallizing moment?

00:10:43.680 Yeah, that was a lot of therapy actually. Yeah, that was learned on the couch. That was a big

00:10:51.540 challenge to my identity, I think. That was also recognizing how much of identity is wrapped up

00:10:56.560 in what you do versus who you are. And I think so part of it was releasing my identity being involved

00:11:04.140 in my work, which is an ongoing struggle. How do you remind yourself of that? Do you have a way of

00:11:10.960 reminding yourself? Yeah, I think honestly, kids are a great reminder of that, which I know we're

00:11:17.420 going to talk about a lot. But I think a lot of the things I do have the potential to warp my head

00:11:27.820 around my identity. So exercise, driving a race car, shooting my bow and arrow, medicine,

00:11:34.800 all of those things have the potential if I'm not diligent to consume me in a way that also

00:11:41.200 sort of determines my self-worth. But if I anchor to my eulogy and not my resume, which is sort of my,

00:11:49.580 I think I've shared this with you, but that's kind of like my mission statement in life is make your

00:11:53.540 eulogy better than your resume. Then I just say, look, these people here, these little people,

00:11:59.280 these kids are the ones that are going to matter at my eulogy. So sometimes I'll come in the house

00:12:04.200 after shooting really poorly and I'll see my little boys running around and it's just much easier to now

00:12:12.040 dismiss the thoughts of how frustrating it is that I can't shoot that well today when I sort of see them

00:12:18.180 playing and realize, well, if I play with them, they don't even know the difference. And I think that's

00:12:24.000 true of medicine as well. Right. So brilliantly articulated. I just need to drill down on,

00:12:30.080 you said, am I doing enough? I completely relate to this. I'm an overworker. The job for me is

00:12:36.180 what do I really want to achieve and how can I do it with less? Because I think insecurity has let me

00:12:42.800 do overwork. I guess I'm asking you that question, the am I doing enough, which certainly helped get you

00:12:51.280 and I to where we are today, right? Because we probably did work harder than other people. We

00:12:56.540 never stopped, but it's clearly not actually not a disciplined recipe for wellness or happiness or

00:13:04.340 being a good husband or good father, right? How have you made that transition? Or do you worry? I guess

00:13:10.820 what I'm asking is, do you worry that you won't be good enough if you don't worry about being good

00:13:14.480 enough? You know, this is something I've spoken at length with Esther Perel, who's someone you know well

00:13:20.760 and have come to respect greatly. When I wrote out my recovery contract a year ago, a little over a

00:13:27.980 year ago, this was a very important part of that recovery contract, which was being able to, on a daily

00:13:35.680 basis, journal about the trade-off that you describe, which is if you start to prioritize your eulogy

00:13:45.280 over your resume, you will make deliberate trade-offs that may sacrifice your performance in the short

00:13:52.040 run. And you have to be able to accept that. And you have to be able to write about that in a sort of

00:13:58.940 dialectical way, which is it is okay to say goodbye to an opportunity today in exchange for something that

00:14:07.700 you value more in the long run. And it's okay to acknowledge that, I think was her point, right? In other

00:14:13.180 words, don't just sort of shove it under the rug and say, well, I'm going to be much more focused on

00:14:19.960 my family and less focused on my craft and act like that doesn't matter. No, that's a very deliberate

00:14:25.400 trade-off. And it's okay to acknowledge that that's a trade-off. And it's okay to acknowledge that you

00:14:30.640 might pay a price for that in the short run. So how specific is the journaling? I'm not a journaler.

00:14:36.620 Can you give me an example? If I was reading it, what would it look like?

00:14:39.980 I actually enjoy journaling a lot. I think it's one of my favorite activities that augments

00:14:48.560 my mental health. You and I have spoken about it, but for me, therapy is a very important part of

00:14:54.640 this. I have a number of therapists actually, and I'm involved in, I do sort of regular psychotherapy.

00:15:02.980 I do something called dialectical behavioral therapy, which is something I'm really interested

00:15:07.160 in. And I've become more and more fond of as a tool to help me change behaviors. But in that journal

00:15:13.920 is sort of where a lot of thoughts go in an unprocessed way. And then in fact, one of the chapters

00:15:19.300 of my book, which you've read, you're one of maybe six people who's read it actually, that chapter

00:15:24.720 basically wrote itself because it was simply extractions from the journal. I basically just went

00:15:30.160 back to two volumes of my journals and literally just sat down one day. This was actually at Esther's

00:15:37.120 recommendation and put sticky pads in pages that took me back through the story. And then the next

00:15:45.040 day literally just wrote 26,000 words basically into that chapter out of those journals. So I recommend

00:15:52.360 it for a lot of people. I do think that it's a great way to process info and it's private. I've never

00:15:59.280 shared it with anybody. So no one's read it directly, but it's a place where I can be as honest as I can

00:16:06.380 be anywhere. Can I talk to you about that chapter? I won't mention, I mean, it was a great privilege to

00:16:12.600 read it. You were the first person to read it. Wow. I remember being incredibly moved by it. It was so

00:16:20.560 articulate and honest, a vulnerable, smart, and you could tell it was years of synthesizing

00:16:29.340 everything. And I remember, I think the first thing I told you after reading it, I think it was

00:16:34.740 chapter, it said chapter 15. I think it was chapter 15. That's right. I said, dude, for me, that's got to

00:16:41.940 be chapter one. I said, because if I'm going to you, if I'm picking up your book, because I want to improve

00:16:47.540 my life, whether it be my longevity, my health, my this, my body, I might think I want to improve my

00:16:53.300 blood pressure results or whatever, but actually in the end, we all just want to be better humans,

00:17:00.020 right? We want that eulogy to be stronger than our resume. And that was one of the greatest examples

00:17:07.280 of teaching that I ever heard, which came from your ability to go, I've failed here, here, I've learned

00:17:14.320 this, I've learned that. And I don't think I've ever heard that from a doctor before, to be honest.

00:17:20.420 And it made all the other chapters go, sure. Tell me what to do about blood pressure. Tell me how to

00:17:26.080 train. Tell me how to, I'm in. Because I could see where it was going and I can't wait for people

00:17:32.860 to actually read it. Even if they only read that first chapter, you'll get a lot from it.

00:17:38.180 It's so interesting to know how it's going to shake out. Just now that book is being,

00:17:43.600 it's in the process of undergoing a major revision. It's far too long. So that book when it's submitted

00:17:49.760 was 180,000 words, it needs to be chopped down by a full third. But I've said a couple of things to

00:17:56.360 the editor. And one of them is, I feel strongly about this chapter staying in the book. Because

00:18:01.180 there was even some discussion about just discarding that whole chapter, because it's so different from

00:18:06.640 the rest of the book. And as much as I'm afraid to put that chapter out there, because in some levels

00:18:13.980 it reflects, it's all my mistakes, right? It reflects so poorly. But I also think what you say

00:18:19.900 is true and what we'll talk about, I think more is true, which is living long without living well

00:18:26.580 in terms of mental health. It's a form of torture in a way. And I want to obviously talk about The

00:18:34.300 Fountain, which is one of my favorite movies that you are in. And I want to explore some of those

00:18:39.400 themes when we get there. Yeah. Well, I was thinking, you know, when I was asking, I said,

00:18:45.880 we have stuff in common, but it is different for actors. I mean, in some ways, every time I do a job,

00:18:51.540 you're open to criticism from critics or people or bloggers, whatever. But I actually feel

00:18:57.120 the internal pressure from your industry, other doctors, academics is more brittle. In fact,

00:19:04.140 like if I do a job, Leonardo DiCaprio doesn't write an op-ed and go, you know what, this guy

00:19:09.740 is the worst. He's like, your fellow actors might bitch about you behind closed doors, but your fellow 0.76

00:19:15.720 actors are not getting out there trashing it. Whereas I think that's a real thing. Tell me if I'm wrong,

00:19:21.400 but in the medical industry, it's much tougher. And I'm sure- I think it's tougher for you.

00:19:25.980 Really? You're on a much bigger stage. You're on a much bigger stage and you- what performance are

00:19:32.500 you most proud of on the screen? There's elements of the fountain. I'm going to say elements. I'm

00:19:40.140 super proud of Les Mis. That was some really frightening stuff for me and elemental stuff.

00:19:48.840 Logan, because I knew that was a 17-year journey to get to that. There are moments in

00:19:55.200 Prisoners in Moments in The Prestige. The first movie I ever did, which no one has ever seen,

00:20:04.560 called Erskineville Kings, which we shot in three weeks. First time I did a movie. I actually am proud

00:20:11.040 of a lot of stuff in The Front Runner, which, you know, it didn't come and go, but it didn't quite

00:20:16.520 land in the way I guess we all hoped. It's moments. I very rarely kind of come away from a film without

00:20:23.920 criticism, personal criticism. That's my point, right? Is no matter how great a job you do,

00:20:30.500 there's always someone, given the stage you're on, that's going to say something that represents a

00:20:37.380 total lack of understanding of what actually took place. So in that sense, I think the criticism that

00:20:43.400 an actor or an athlete, a professional athlete, or a politician, and look, in our culture today,

00:20:50.540 politician's a dirty word, but I got to believe there are some of them that are still good.

00:20:55.600 Of course.

00:20:56.540 You know, think about a job where a 60% approval rating is amazing. Like, if you're a politician,

00:21:02.800 a 60% approval rating means you're exceptional, and that means 40% of people can't stand you.

00:21:07.300 Speaking of approval ratings, I love this statistic. You know, these Q ratings, right?

00:21:13.080 Yeah, right, yeah.

00:21:13.960 Do you know that you have the highest Q rating in Australia? Your Q rating, which is a measure of

00:21:19.580 popularity and likability, is 99%. And I think the next person after you is 67%.

00:21:27.640 Yeah, it's a friend of mine who runs Foxtel, which is like a big sort of cable network in Australia.

00:21:36.300 And he did come from marketing originally in PR. But anyway, he rang me and he told me this.

00:21:43.020 Why didn't he tell me? I think I was going to do something like a commercial for something. He goes,

00:21:47.700 and so the Q rating is more around if you're going to endorse a product.

00:21:51.280 Yeah. How much do you trust this person?

00:21:52.820 Exactly. Yeah. And he rang me and he said, dude, for the last eight years, you've been

00:21:58.760 the number one guy by such a long way. And he said, but here's the thing. I know you're going

00:22:05.420 to hear that. And all you're going to think is, what? There's 1% who don't like me? What do I have

00:22:10.380 to do to get the 1%? That's exhausting. That's probably, and I laugh my head off. And there's

00:22:16.360 certainly an element of truth for that. Well, that's why you absolutely could never go into

00:22:20.260 politics. If I'm critical of myself, I think the worst. When I did the front run, people said,

00:22:26.240 oh, you want to go into politics? I said, no. Did you spend time with Gary Hart, by the way,

00:22:29.540 in prep for that movie? Yeah. I went and spent time with him. And let me just, before I forget,

00:22:35.040 when I told my dad, I was going to go and study acting. And I sort of wanted his blessing. My dad

00:22:41.260 never gave advice about, he always thought it's your choice. And then after I'd make a decision,

00:22:47.940 he'd let me know what he thought, which was super frustrating at the time. But now I think

00:22:51.300 incredibly wise and disciplined. But I said, I'm going to act. And he goes, I definitely think

00:22:57.040 you have the talent, but I think you're too thin skinned. That was his comment to me. So I've

00:23:01.700 always kept that. And actually it was helpful to me. I don't read reviews. I'll get the temperature

00:23:07.240 of the wire. Someone say, what's the temperature here? What's the basic idea? But once I start reading,

00:23:14.440 particularly when you're doing stage, it gets into your head. And actually a compliment is

00:23:19.380 sometimes worse than a negative. A negative can fire you up. Oh yeah, I'll show them. Oh yeah,

00:23:25.120 really? You know, but a positive, like it can kill you. So there's sort of different, right? There's 0.72

00:23:32.940 the review for on screen where you can't do anything about it. The work is done. It's out there. Then

00:23:37.960 there's the review on stage where you're going out night after night after night. So do you think

00:23:41.960 about those types of reviews differently? Totally. So I really don't look at the reviews

00:23:47.100 for on stage. Again, I'll just try and find the thing. Because for example, I did a show called

00:23:53.260 The Boy From Oz. It was back in 2003. We did not get well reviewed. I did not read any reviews.

00:23:59.900 But my feeling on opening night being on stage was like, man, this is landing. Like this connects

00:24:04.780 with people. This is, I can feel. It's great. So I remember we got together on the next night we were

00:24:11.520 back on and we were in a circle and our producers came and they did one of those, don't worry,

00:24:17.360 we committed to the show. And I remember looking around going, what's going on? How bad was it?

00:24:23.840 And it turned out it was not great. So in theater, particularly New York back, particularly back

00:24:30.300 then, if you didn't get a review from the New York Times, it could kill your show. Because a lot of

00:24:34.200 the other reviewers followed that. Most people look at the New York Times and it depends, ticket sales

00:24:39.520 depend on that. Under movies, it's not always dependent on that. So anyway, we ended up, but I could

00:24:46.700 just, I was like, no, I feel this connects. I really feel it connects. And we ended up being

00:24:52.620 kind of a massive hit. And it did actually, I could feel people come back and back and back.

00:24:57.980 One woman saw it 200 times out of 400 shows that I did. It was people just, I could feel them by the

00:25:03.820 end, we were like, you couldn't get a ticket. So in that way, I'm kind of glad I didn't read those

00:25:08.720 reviews because I knew no one knows better than me and all those other actors, not even the director.

00:25:14.080 I know when it's landing, a bit like a comedian on stage. And you know something is landing or not,

00:25:22.280 and someone could write a review and it will, but film is different. Film, you're removed from it.

00:25:28.260 You're not in the editing process, unless you're part of that or directing it. And you never really

00:25:34.440 know how it's going to land. And I do actually now think, I've sort of grown up a little bit and

00:25:38.240 think it's worthwhile reading really good reviewers to see what their take is on it.

00:25:45.020 But I think I was always basically scared to read, what the hell is this guy doing on the screen?

00:25:52.720 Like, he's not that good. I don't understand it. Blah, blah, blah. And that something like that

00:25:57.300 would just bring me to my knees. That's what always scared me, I think.

00:26:00.520 So does Deb have the same sort of relationship? Like when you are doing something or when she

00:26:07.280 is doing something, can you not read for each other? I mean, is it harder to see your spouse

00:26:12.120 going through something that you deem unfair? And then do you have sort of an agreement that says,

00:26:17.980 look, you can read these reviews, but I don't want you to share with me the nitty gritty of it.

00:26:22.580 You can give me the gestalt if it's productive for me. Like, how do you navigate that?

00:26:26.540 Yeah, that's exactly how it works. So, you know, I remember I did my, I did a one man show here on

00:26:32.460 Broadway and Deb came down to me. She goes, I've read them all and they're amazing. And I know you

00:26:39.400 don't want to read them, but you have to read this. It's in the New York Times and you need to read it.

00:26:44.520 So I read it and I was like, Deb, I don't think this is a great review. She goes, what are you

00:26:51.820 talking about? It's amazing. And I said, I don't think so. It's, there was a line in there,

00:26:56.540 that I remembered to this day. All Hugh Jackman asks of his audience is that you love him,

00:27:02.900 loving you, loving him. And I kind of went, what? But in my heart, I knew that was like,

00:27:10.520 this is kind of bullshit. He's really, he wants you to think that he's really there for you, but 0.98

00:27:16.180 I'm not sure he is. It stuck with me to this day. I remember going bright red, reading it, going,

00:27:21.700 is that, am I, am I? Anyway, and Deb was like, oh my God, I'll never get to you again. But I kind

00:27:28.100 of, in a way, what I didn't want to hear, I kind of, it might've been a throwaway line from the

00:27:33.480 review. I don't know, but it certainly, but ultimately I think it helped me because it made

00:27:38.460 me go, all right, really look at yourself. Is that the real me? Because I'm doing a one-man show.

00:27:46.040 It's like elements of my life. How much am I manipulating that to show you what the version

00:27:52.600 of me I want you to see is, which is, I guess what that line is about and how much of it is

00:27:57.100 actually me. And that's a work in progress for all of us. Like if I do that show now,

00:28:01.460 I would say I'm more authentic than I was 10 years ago, but it's a good question. And Deb is like a

00:28:06.240 lioness. Like, I mean, she'll just want to lop someone's head off if they give me a bad review. 1.00

00:28:11.920 Like she's very, very protective. I'm sure Jill is the same for you, right?

00:28:16.080 Well, it's funny. So Jill really has enormous disdain for social media, which is really the 0.85

00:28:20.860 place where people are going to attack you the most. For example, you know, recently I put out

00:28:25.640 a number of podcasts that dealt with vaccines, vaccine science, and sort of the, a lot of the

00:28:31.440 misinformation around this. And, you know, not surprisingly, you're going to get a very small

00:28:35.640 vocal minority of people who are just going to attack you over this kind of stuff and do so in

00:28:43.080 a very personal way. It's almost impossible for these people to say, you know, this is your

00:28:48.500 interesting take on the science, but have you ever considered such and such? No, no, it's usually like

00:28:53.020 you're in the pockets of pharma. You're an idiot. Literally, I had one person compare me to Adolf 1.00

00:28:59.720 Hitler and say that what you're doing is propagating so much lies that are going to hurt so many people 0.95

00:29:06.340 that this is like Hitler killing Jews. So when you have this type of vitriol coming at you,

00:29:14.180 Jill's view is, why do you even do this? Why in the world do you do this? Why would you ever

00:29:22.140 have a single account on social media that even gives people an opportunity to comment?

00:29:27.940 What's your answer?

00:29:29.720 It's that, look, I don't really look at these things that much. Frankly, it's very rare that I

00:29:34.980 look at them and it's even rarer that I would respond. Maybe once every six months, I have a

00:29:40.380 lapse in judgment and I'll actually respond to someone like that, trying to clarify something.

00:29:45.320 And I'm 0 for 20 on ever changing anybody's mind who's in that stage. So you'd think after like the

00:29:52.240 first 10, I would have learned like when someone comes at you with that, like that you can't talk

00:29:57.520 rationally with them. Joe Rogan gave me really, really great advice a few months ago after a

00:30:03.340 particularly awful attack. Cause I said, Joe, how do you cope with this? Like how in the world do you,

00:30:09.420 cause you must be, you know, you're such a polarizing figure. And he just said, post and ghost,

00:30:14.080 post and ghost. Whenever he puts something up, he never, ever, ever looks at a single comment.

00:30:19.960 So in some ways that's our analog, I think. Yeah. But in the end, I guess you're doing it

00:30:26.540 because I can't imagine you, do you care about those people who are saying you're Adolf Hitler?

00:30:31.340 No. I mean, when someone says something so ridiculous, that doesn't faze me. I think what 0.95

00:30:36.000 does bother me though, truthfully is that I know that a lot of the people who have really warped views

00:30:44.660 about science will suffer for those views. Like science is a hard topic. And I think scientists

00:30:52.240 have not always done a good job explaining it. And I think that people do sometimes pay a price

00:30:58.720 for this. And so I think in some ways I just, I have empathy for people who are, I think being misled.

00:31:05.680 And obviously I have incredible empathy for, for parents of kids with autism who think, you know,

00:31:13.640 this vaccine did this to my child, even though there's not a shred of evidence to suggest that,

00:31:18.680 but, but it's, I understand you, of course you want to have someone to blame for this.

00:31:23.120 So I think if anything, I just want to be able to offer those people some hope that says, Hey,

00:31:27.800 you, you didn't do this to your child. So that's, that's part of what I think makes me a bit sad.

00:31:32.940 I think that's why your book is a bit of a game changer for me from your, bless you, Deb. I think

00:31:38.640 it's incredibly humanizing. I think that really, I think a lot of people feel with medical stuff or

00:31:44.320 with doctors, they want confidence, right? They want to feel like what they're getting is the

00:31:49.300 right answer because I'm, I don't know. I don't know. I haven't done any science. I don't know.

00:31:53.160 Should I take this pill or that pill? So you want that confidence. And sometimes that can come across

00:31:57.320 as arrogance, I guess, from some doctors and, and then people want to question it and lump it in with

00:32:04.520 some kind of government conspiracy. I don't really understand that, but your book, I think will go

00:32:08.460 a long way to just humanizing it and saying, Hey, I can be wrong by the way. And I've been wrong and

00:32:14.460 here's how I've been wrong. And, and here's what I've learned from it. But, you know, I've done a

00:32:18.340 lot of work on this and this is, you know, this is the way forward. I want to kind of ask you something

00:32:24.240 about, I've never asked you this before, but you live in a world of, of data in many ways,

00:32:30.780 right. And you, you clearly kind of love data. I think you, you love the puzzle of it and math.

00:32:36.020 And I've, you know, you've helped me out some things where I can, you, you love solving. I want

00:32:41.620 to do it this way, which has amazed me. Have you ever gone against the data with your gut? Like your

00:32:47.120 guts just said, Hmm, he really should stand on his left foot and turn around four times and there's

00:32:52.000 zero data on it. Or the data might say, this is ridiculous. Have you ever, ever gone with your gut 0.96

00:32:58.400 instead of the data? Hmm. I'm sure I have at times. Hmm. This is a ridiculous example, but

00:33:08.000 probably the best example of my life choosing to marry Jill. I remember we were dating when I was 0.95

00:33:15.860 in residency and I just, at the time was so focused on my work and I just wanted to be the best surgeon

00:33:24.400 in the world. I mean, I was so maniacally driven Hugh and how she even put up with me. I'll never

00:33:33.220 understand. Like every, you know, we're already working 110 to 120 hours a week in this hospital.

00:33:40.340 And when I would get out of the hospital, I only had two priorities, exercise and more practicing and

00:33:48.320 reading. I made a commitment to read. I don't remember exactly what it was, but you know,

00:33:54.580 something like 15 pages a day out of surgical textbooks. I ended up spending a few years

00:34:00.480 summarizing the top shelf of my bookcase, which was, I forget, I think it was like 17,000 words of

00:34:08.980 surgical text into 150 pages. And then I also would practice doing these very delicate anastomoses every

00:34:16.680 night with my surgical instruments in these models that I had built. And so when we were dating,

00:34:22.820 like even before we would go out for dinner, I would have to do these things. And she'd be sitting

00:34:28.440 there twiddling her thumbs, sitting on my bed while I'd be doing these things. And then I'd even make

00:34:32.760 her come over and inspect it. I'd be like, you know, put the magnifying loops on and look at that.

00:34:37.180 Do you think that's perfect? Is that, you know, could that, and we, it became a joke. And even she had

00:34:42.560 sort of like this thought of like, you know, this is a guy who will never put me first. He will always

00:34:48.080 put his work first. Did she articulate that to you then? Not then, but later on. This is actually

00:34:55.320 a very personal story, but which I guess I'm sharing now, but the week before our wedding,

00:35:00.780 we really collectively had second thoughts and we sat outside. I remember exactly where we were

00:35:07.340 and thought maybe we shouldn't do this. Maybe I'm just not the kind of guy who's ever going to want

00:35:14.560 to be married. And that's that. And I guess you could argue that was sort of the data talking to

00:35:21.060 me. The data was saying, Hey, you know, surgeons have a divorce rate of X. And did you initiate this

00:35:27.900 talk or did Jill? I did. No, it was a hundred percent me. And then something in my gut just overrode

00:35:33.920 that. And by the end of that day, I decided that, no, there's something here that I don't yet

00:35:42.320 understand and it's going to be more important. And I will say, and you now know how my life has

00:35:48.160 turned out. It turned out to be the most important decision I've ever made because I don't think I'd

00:35:54.340 be doing what I'm doing without Jill. In other words, when I think of all of the difficult things

00:36:00.740 that have come in my life, having her as the base of my support has been the most important thing.

00:36:07.640 And it's, she is a unique person. Everybody would say that about their spouse. I suspect

00:36:12.160 it's that she's the right person for me, right? She, she, she is the right person for me. And that

00:36:18.820 would not have been apparent from any amount of data, but I do think my gut probably sensed that

00:36:23.920 sensed an ability for an unconditional love that probably even transcends what most spouses could

00:36:29.920 provide. Yeah. I mean, it's clear from the outside that you are meant to be together. Again,

00:36:35.820 that's a gut feeling you get. Actually, I have a little bit of a similar story at the beginning

00:36:40.780 of my relationship with Deb, who is down there. You okay if I tell the story about you at the

00:36:47.540 restaurant? You okay with that? All right. So early, it's two or three weeks in, but I,

00:36:54.920 I just had this feeling two weeks in and now Deb and I met on a television series. She's the star

00:37:02.760 and it is my first job. So we started dating two or three months into it, but I, both of us, it's an

00:37:09.740 like, you never date your co-star. That's the biggest cliche. It kills the series. The whole series was

00:37:15.220 about this kind of sexual tension between in the prison, between the psychologist played by Deb and

00:37:20.060 the prisoner me. So everything was wrong about it. Anyway, getting through that, we get together,

00:37:25.900 we're there and so happy and I'm falling in love. And I am just like this, I've never felt like this

00:37:31.980 before. This, I didn't really know it could be like, I didn't know that there were human beings

00:37:36.360 like Deb on the planet. And I was super happy being single, first job out of drama school, 26 happy days.

00:37:43.760 And we go out two or three weeks in, never spent a night apart. We go out to dinner. I want to say

00:37:48.940 there's 14 people at the dinner. I sit down sort of on one corner and Deb sits in the literal opposite

00:37:55.480 corner on the other side. And I'm like, fine, you know, whatever, like that's okay. And at one point

00:38:01.560 I was telling a story and the whole table was listening to my story or I can't remember what

00:38:06.860 it was, but I remember looking down and Deb had her back turned to me talking to someone next to her.

00:38:12.680 So apart from Deb and that person, everyone's listening to me. And the thought just came into my head

00:38:17.920 or more in my gut, oh, she's trying to break up with me. And that stayed with me for the dinner.

00:38:23.780 And when we get in the car, I just knew it. And I said, and this is not me at all. The me up until

00:38:30.180 that point was, if I'm getting the data that someone wants to break up with me, I'm out first.

00:38:35.640 I'm out. Like I'm not waiting there to get dumped. I'm going to like, see ya. Like, so I'm there and

00:38:44.260 I'm in the car and I turned to Deb and I said, you're trying to work out reasons to break up with 0.98

00:38:49.520 me, aren't you? And she, I remember she goes, yeah, yeah. I said, I get it. I said, listen, I know

00:38:58.460 you're scared. Remember it was my first job. There was a star at the time. Her new year's resolution

00:39:05.660 was, I'm not going to date any more actors and definitely none under the age of 30. Right.

00:39:10.100 And I'm 26 year old actor in his first job. Like I was her worst nightmare. And I remember these words

00:39:15.700 came out of my mouth. I still to this day, doesn't, didn't feel like me. I just said, well,

00:39:22.180 I understand you're scared. I get it. I guess I would be too, but don't worry. I know we're going to be

00:39:27.880 together for the rest of our lives. I can feel it. So you better just get over it.

00:39:32.920 And she just laughed. And that was kind of it. That was sort of the moment. Like I'm forever

00:39:40.040 grateful. I mean, I knew, and I'm the most, you know me, I'm very indecisive. I can't,

00:39:47.200 whatever lunch, have this or that or super indecisive. And somehow with Deb is one of those

00:39:53.400 moments who just went, oh, this is absolutely clear. And it is the greatest relief.

00:39:57.520 And when you get that, I always say to people, just, if you get that moment, just go with it

00:40:04.520 because it's turned out obviously be one of the greatest blessings in my life. We just celebrated

00:40:10.120 25 years together and it just gets better and better and better. And there's no way I would

00:40:15.900 be here or as happy or who I am today without it. So we've got, we've got that in common for sure.

00:40:20.840 Yeah. Yeah. Do you, do you have any other moments like that? When I grew up in Canada,

00:40:25.120 there was this sports network called TSN, the sports network. And every night they would show

00:40:29.340 a highlight called the TSN turning point where they would pick one game and there was one play

00:40:34.560 in one game that totally changed the game. So I've always had in my back of my mind, this idea of like

00:40:39.540 you're the TSN turning points of your life. And that was obviously one of them for you, right? That's a

00:40:43.960 very important decision. Had you fallen into your default state, which is to run totally different

00:40:52.800 life. What are some other moments that you've made enormous, maybe at the time they didn't feel

00:40:59.900 like enormous decisions, but they totally changed the arc of your life, whether it be personally or

00:41:04.480 professionally. Yeah. I'll tell you a little one, which is, I just want to tell you this because

00:41:10.660 it's a little freaky. And I think it goes back to, I was brought up in a very religious 0.86

00:41:16.420 household. My father was converted to Christianity by Billy Graham. So we lived that sort of life

00:41:21.560 very much. Every holiday was church this. And I remember praying every single night for most

00:41:28.200 of my childhood through till 15, 16, that God, just tell me, make it clear to me what you

00:41:35.500 want me to do. That's all I ask. I actually do not care what it is.

00:41:39.320 It could be anything, but I want to know that I'm on that path. The idea that is in Christianity

00:41:46.920 that I was taught was there is God's will. It's a narrow path. It's easy to go off it.

00:41:52.680 And most of the world would distract you from it, but stick with it. So I went and auditioned

00:41:57.900 for a drama school after I'd done a degree, majored in journalism. And before I went off to do

00:42:04.280 that career, I thought I'm going to audition for this drama school because long story, but I'd spent

00:42:10.040 time doing a play and just loved it. And it was clear to me, I loved it more than I did

00:42:14.600 my degree. So I went and auditioned. I got in.

00:42:19.640 Had you acted before? Had you done any acting before?

00:42:22.440 Only amateur. So I did amateur all through school, even a college. I was in local community

00:42:27.740 plays. And I did a play at college in my last semester, which made me realize I was spending

00:42:34.700 way more time on the play than my thesis and everything. So I thought someone's off here.

00:42:40.100 I might just spend a year while I'm waiting. I'll do this course. And I found this course

00:42:43.960 that was in Sydney. I wanted to do a course in England, but I couldn't afford it.

00:42:48.020 So I want to do this one in Sydney. And I got in. And I remember opening up the letter

00:42:53.660 and it said, you're accepted. And I was so happy. And at the bottom, it said, please make payable

00:42:58.660 your check for the tuition of three and a half thousand dollars. Now that's not going to sound

00:43:02.800 like a lot of money, but in Australia, when I was growing up, you didn't pay for tertiary

00:43:06.580 education. So university was free. It's now not quite like that, but I was like, I hadn't

00:43:12.220 even thought of it. And I just finished a degree. My dad had helped me. And I was like, three and a half

00:43:15.680 grand. I don't have three and a half. Ah, whatever. I screwed it up. I put it in the trash.

00:43:20.180 And so I thought, oh, well, there goes that. They're not meant to be. And it's going to

00:43:26.460 sound like an exaggeration. I swear to you, it's not. My grandmother had died three months

00:43:31.380 before and the bequest came to me the following day and a check for three and a half thousand

00:43:36.420 dollars. And I'm literally fishing through my trash can, which of course I never emptied

00:43:42.780 anyway. So it was there. And at that time I wasn't as, as sort of maniacally into Christianity

00:43:50.920 that way, but I was like, oh, that's just super clear. So that's, that's sort of a TSM

00:43:54.340 moment, but not really on my own doing in a way. But then I, at the end of that year,

00:43:58.760 I got an audition for Neighbours, which is a soap opera, but it was like a seven o'clock

00:44:04.280 at night, Beverly Hills 90210. Melrose Place. It was a massive show in Australia, huge in

00:44:13.420 England. I mean, the amount of people who come from it as actors that you would know is extraordinary.

00:44:18.940 I got offered a role. It was, it sort of came out of the blue. I auditioned, I got it. And

00:44:23.600 all of a sudden I'm like, oh my God, I've got a role. And I remember the contract is $2,000

00:44:28.280 a week. I'm like, what am I going to do with $2,000? This is unbelievable. Two year contract.

00:44:32.720 I was like, this is crazy. But I was in the middle of auditioning for a major drama school.

00:44:39.220 I auditioned. It went well. I got a call back. I went again. The contract hadn't come through

00:44:44.420 for Neighbours. So I just kept sort of auditioning and long story short, I got offered a spot

00:44:49.280 and I had a weekend where I had to decide. And I remember I had an agent back then who was

00:44:57.280 begging me, like going, what are you doing or thinking you must, what are you talking about?

00:45:01.480 This is Neighbours. This is a job. You must do it. So I had the weekend to decide whether

00:45:08.300 or not I'm going to go to a three year acting course or go off and be a professional actor.

00:45:14.400 And I went to my dad who I, as I told you before, he wasn't really in the business of giving advice.

00:45:20.500 And I said, dad, I just don't know what to do. I see both sides. I don't know what I should

00:45:25.680 do. Like my agent saying, go into the thing, earn the money and go off and study. You'll have money

00:45:30.560 and you'll have experience. You'll be in front of a camera and then keep studying.

00:45:34.000 And I said, but dad, I just don't trust myself. Once I start working, then I'm going to do the

00:45:37.820 training. And I don't feel I deserve an audition at the Royal Shakespeare Company, which is where I

00:45:41.820 want to work or the National Theatre. And I don't think working on, you know, I'm doing all this.

00:45:47.340 And I remember he said to me, he goes, Hugh, I can't answer that for you. That's the decision

00:45:54.260 you have to make. You're 22. And this is your choice. Great. Thanks, dad. I was like, I went

00:46:03.320 off. I just put it away. Don't think about it. By the next day, it was just clear to me

00:46:10.020 that idea of I want to work at the Royal Shakespeare Company. When am I going to get the training

00:46:17.200 that makes me feel I deserve to audition for that? A bit like you, you want to be a great

00:46:21.760 surgeon. You didn't want to just, I'm going to work in that little place down there. I've

00:46:25.700 got the job. At least I can do that kind of work, you know? No, I wanted to have the opportunity

00:46:30.620 to do everything. So in the end, I decided, I went to my dad and I said, dad, I've decided

00:46:36.200 to go and go to drama school and not do the job. And he goes, oh, thank God. Oh, I'm so

00:46:41.860 happy. I said, what? I said, you knew all the time? He goes, yes, but I just, if

00:46:47.120 I made the choice for you, then I would have denied you that moment of maturing and growing

00:46:53.520 and it would have forever been, dad told me. And I remember that to this day, but that

00:46:59.860 was one of those great TSN moments for me at turning points.

00:47:03.780 Your relationship with your dad is kind of amazing. How old were you when your mom left?

00:47:08.840 I was eight. So I was eight when mom left, but she had been unwell. First year and a half

00:47:14.580 of my life I'd spent with my godparents. So I think mom went into hospital when I was

00:47:19.840 about with postnatal depression major. When I was about three months old, she went into

00:47:25.920 hospital. So I was with my godparents for the, for that period. Then I came back and

00:47:31.140 I remember periods where mom would be just going away for a week, which I guess was some

00:47:35.200 kind of reset or maybe, I actually don't know if it was like an official sort of facility

00:47:40.640 or rehab or just getting away. By the way, five kids, you know?

00:47:44.780 Yes. And you're the fifth, right?

00:47:46.740 I'm the fifth. Yeah. I'm the youngest. So when I was eight, she left. I don't think

00:47:52.280 she ever planned. In fact, I know she didn't. She told me she didn't plan to leave for good.

00:47:55.800 And it just sort of did. And she wasn't in a great place and, and her mom was not well.

00:48:01.380 So she went back to look after her mom in England. And so my dad, from when I was eight,

00:48:05.500 my oldest sister, I think was 15 or 16. So he brought up, you know, from those ages,

00:48:12.760 he brought up all of us. He's sort of an amazing man in that way. It's like, if you think about

00:48:18.440 what that decade must've been like, I don't think he had a moment to himself for 10 years. I don't

00:48:24.760 ever remember. Like there was sometimes he used to, he was an accountant at Pricewaterhouse and

00:48:28.760 he used to travel for work. And I actually remember now I know we travel when I had young

00:48:35.280 kids, like just the first two days when you travel, when you have young kids is the greatest

00:48:40.300 thing. When, when you go somewhere that people, you want to go out and go, shut up. No, I want

00:48:44.680 to close the curtains. I want to go to bed at eight o'clock. I want to sleep. And then I want to wake up

00:48:49.720 and I want to read the entire newspaper from front to back or the other way around. And I want to drink

00:48:55.200 coffee. I don't want to talk to anybody, but he had an incredible, incredible time. But that,

00:49:01.420 that decade, I, in, in many ways, I learned many of my, I guess, ethics, hard work from him for sure.

00:49:10.320 How much do you think that your mom's departure impacted this perfectionism and this insatiable,

00:49:19.240 probable desire to sort of please people? Do you feel that that was either conscious or subconscious?

00:49:25.920 Subconscious for sure. It's certainly rocked my world. As you can imagine, I was eight, but

00:49:32.100 I remember people thinking, oh, you don't really, I remember them saying it as, I'm like,

00:49:36.940 I totally understand. Like, I think we underestimate eight-year-olds, what eight-year-olds. And also

00:49:41.580 I have older brothers and sisters. So I certainly have learned after that more about the dynamics

00:49:47.640 of the relationship. But I was never, and I can't say this for all my siblings, I don't want to speak

00:49:54.020 for them, but I don't ever remember being super angry with mom. And I, on some level, I always had a

00:50:02.420 kind of connection to her and a sort of understanding that she loved me, that she had done her best. Like

00:50:09.780 on some level, I think I always felt that, but it was certainly a hole for sure. And I had a lot of

00:50:19.540 fear that got exacerbated from that sort of, I guess you'd call it anxiety now. And at the time,

00:50:26.780 just scared of lots of things. And I guess that unknowing, I can rationalize it now that that

00:50:35.340 perfectionism in me is you've got to work really hard to make sure people don't leave, right? You've

00:50:41.360 got to really, you've got to be at your best. And it's interesting. I just finished watching that

00:50:45.800 great documentary by Ken Burns and Lynn, is it Novick? Lynn Novick? I think so. Yeah.

00:50:51.800 It's called College Behind Bars. And it's about the Bard Prison Initiative about just,

00:50:56.620 anyway, it's an amazing doco. If you haven't seen it, I highly recommend it.

00:51:00.420 And I actually, in this, not lost to me, my first job was in a prison, playing a prisoner.

00:51:07.740 It just feels to me very similar dynamic. Like when you have some kind of abandonment or a hole,

00:51:17.460 my way of coping with that was I'm going to make sure that I please, that no one's going to want to

00:51:24.680 leave me behind, ever. Like that's not going to be, I'll work whatever you want me to do.

00:51:30.200 I'll work hard. I'll do this. In that way, I think it's really, I think it's sort of the opposite in

00:51:36.400 some ways of people who end up being rebellious. By the way, my next brother up was really rebellious

00:51:41.400 and all of that. And I was the opposite. I would do all the things my brother did,

00:51:46.900 but I never wanted anyone to find out. I just wanted to stay in the good graces of everybody.

00:51:53.340 And that's how it impacted me.

00:51:54.860 That is such an amazing topic to explore. As you know, our mutual friend, Paul Conti,

00:52:00.440 who's really one of the most thoughtful people when it comes to understanding trauma. And certainly

00:52:05.800 your mom leaving when you're eight, if that's not trauma, I'm not sure what is. But one of the

00:52:11.060 things that's so interesting in talking with Paul is kind of the ways that two people in the same

00:52:16.420 household even could have different adaptations to the same trauma. One could move one way and your

00:52:21.640 brother could move another way. And yet those were both serving very important needs to each of you,

00:52:28.140 right? They were both adaptations that were serving you. And usually more productively than

00:52:34.240 unproductively, which of course brings us back to kind of how we open the discussion. At some point,

00:52:39.540 those adaptations generally become counterproductive. At some point, those adaptations catch up with you

00:52:46.520 and they start to become maladaptive instead of purely adaptive. And I think that's the thing

00:52:52.500 that people struggle with is understanding, which again is another form of dialectical synthesis,

00:52:57.260 which is, hey, there was a day when this was a really good adaptation and it sort of got me to

00:53:02.840 a certain place. But now it's a little counterproductive and that doesn't mean that I can't embrace what it's

00:53:10.680 helped me do, what it's protected me from, and yet there's still a rationale to be made for changing things

00:53:17.560 and improving.

00:53:18.600 I couldn't agree more. I actually want to ask this to you because knowing your history in particular,

00:53:25.320 I didn't know that you had that desire to be the best surgeon in the world, but it doesn't surprise me.

00:53:29.980 When you did athletics or you did swims, it wasn't a three-mile swim. It was a 50-mile swim. It was like you would push

00:53:37.820 yourself through crazy limits, physical, mental, spiritual, emotional. I need to, there was that

00:53:46.060 need to push. Am I right?

00:53:47.880 Sure. Yeah.

00:53:49.200 You know, I've only recently read As a Man Thinketh. It's like written in 1904. It's like this big.

00:53:55.400 It's a great book. And James Allen writes in that, that the growth is part of nature. It's very natural

00:54:02.520 growth. And it is uncomfortable, but it is the natural state. So I think both you and I went beyond

00:54:11.320 that natural state. In our need to be successful or to achieve or to grow, we would go through unusual

00:54:17.800 amounts of pain or sacrifice. You've done it, I would say, more than me. I think your capacity is

00:54:24.720 one of almost everyone I know has been so huge. Now, I know you're more sort of measured about it,

00:54:33.580 but what is the line? How would you coach your kids about what is the line where it's actually

00:54:40.180 destructive and not productive? This is such an important topic that I struggle with a lot. And I

00:54:47.420 talk about a lot with my wife because I don't know the answer. There are times I look back at my

00:54:54.120 upbringing and my childhood and I think, I look back at the child and I feel sorry for certain

00:55:00.240 things that the child endured. But then I think, but look at what came out of that, right? Look at

00:55:05.240 the resilience that came out of that. But then I think, I don't want my kids to experience some of

00:55:11.440 the things I experienced as a kid, but I also want them to have the internal drive to do things that

00:55:18.120 I wonder how can that be created from a positive place? Because I do think most of my drive came

00:55:25.360 from a negative place. It's important, at least for me, to separate the part that is above the

00:55:32.480 surface, that which one sees, the striving, the achievement, all of those things, from that which

00:55:38.320 is beneath the surface, which is, is it coming from a place of self-love or is it coming from a place

00:55:44.400 of self-flogging? And I think in my case, pretty much everything I did came from a place of self-flogging.

00:55:53.340 And therefore, I think there's really no scenario under which that's the right thing. So first of all,

00:55:58.880 I don't think that's uniformly the case. I think there are lots of people who are doing well in

00:56:02.800 whatever it is they choose to do, who can do it in a way where they're not sort of flogging themselves

00:56:07.860 to get there. And what I want to understand better, and one of the things I'm really interested

00:56:14.040 in exploring as a parent, is how do you encourage your kids to achieve the best that they can do,

00:56:21.680 but not from this place of beating themselves up to do it?

00:56:26.580 Yeah, totally. It's so hard. I remember asking my dad, Oscar, who's now 21, was maybe four or five or

00:56:34.000 six. I think Ava was born. And I remember saying to dad, I said, dad, give me some advice. You've

00:56:37.320 had five kids. Like you've watched him. We were on vacation. What am I doing? I'm like, no, no,

00:56:41.500 no, no, no. You're doing great. No, that's fine. I said, come on, dad. I had to really push him. And

00:56:44.600 he said, you praise the kids too much. I'm like, oh, he goes, you know, when Oscar takes his plate

00:56:51.980 off the table and puts in the dishwasher and thank him for that, that's expected. And I, in that minute,

00:56:58.900 I was like, oh yeah, all of us, my siblings have this sort of need to do more to please. And, you

00:57:05.040 know, but sometimes I go, well, it sort of worked, you know, in some way it works, but what is that

00:57:12.240 balance? I don't, for my dad, I do praise him too much because I, I guess I want to focus them on,

00:57:19.000 I like following like the Seth Godin, like I read a lot of Seth and I know you like Seth,

00:57:24.800 that way of following your fear, the thing that scares you, that there's some illumination in that

00:57:30.640 and having something to say and doing it for other people. And then that way it takes care of a lot

00:57:37.040 of stuff. So there is a responsibility for every single person on the planet to be part of this

00:57:41.640 community. And I try to say that to kids, like, what, what are you offering? What, what is it you've

00:57:45.940 got to offer? And it's, even if it's something you love, there's going to be days you don't want to do

00:57:49.320 it. But I want them to do it from a place exactly, as you say, of self-love. Ava just went off today

00:57:55.620 to do a pre-ACT test. I texted her this morning. I was mad with myself. I didn't say it to her before

00:58:01.060 she left. And I wrote this, have fun today. No test is a reflection of you, who you really are.

00:58:09.460 Just be curious and open. Love you. I'm sure she was like rolling her eyes when she read it,

00:58:13.780 right? But I guess that's what I'm trying to be curious. I try to say to her when she goes to

00:58:19.400 school, I was like, ask challenging questions today. And she's like, roll her eyes. I'm like,

00:58:23.940 don't just do the, oh, good girl. I got my grade and the end of that. I said, the world doesn't

00:58:27.780 need those people. I was one of those. I was school captain of my school and this and like that. And I

00:58:31.620 was doing my homework and blah, blah, blah. But that's not what the world needs. And it will all

00:58:36.080 need people who are going to do what they love. Know when enough is enough. More is not always better

00:58:41.960 in terms of consuming or just achievement. Be disciplined about doing less. All those things

00:58:47.780 are what I'm trying to teach them. Speaking of kids, how much have your kids

00:58:53.120 struggled with being the son of famous people? You told me a story once that I thought was

00:59:01.740 very touching about how devastated Oscar was when he learned, obviously retrospectively,

00:59:09.080 that John Lennon had been killed. And I mean, first of all, it's just amazing to me how much

00:59:14.820 that troubled him. It really troubled us. I would say he was eight or nine when he found it out.

00:59:21.840 And there were tears for, I'm going to say on and off for three months, three to six months. There

00:59:26.820 was a period where I genuinely said to Deb, I've got to step away. I think I've got to step away. It's

00:59:33.280 too much for him because he was genuinely frightened. We would go to Central Park all the time. We would

00:59:38.840 go past the John Lennon Memorial. And he just saw me as a famous person. And I did try to explain to

00:59:47.880 him that there's different levels of fame. There is a mania with some people. Tiger at his height or

00:59:53.780 Bieber or that's never really happened to me. And I, for a number of reasons, maybe because I'm just not

00:59:59.820 as famous as like John Lennon in the Beatles. That was a whole different thing. But to a nine-year-old

01:00:05.880 for him, he just found it really difficult. He hated the paparazzi. He hated the attention when

01:00:10.980 he was a little kid. Like I remember, he was about two. People would come up to us at a table,

01:00:17.760 right? They want to talk to me. And you know what people, they want to talk to you. So what they do

01:00:21.400 is they come up and go, oh, hi to the kid. Hey, look at you, look so cute. And it's like,

01:00:25.760 there's a way in, right? And people would come up and Oscar would just go, he would look at him

01:00:31.260 and go, ah, ah. And I thought, that's the most honest response at this table right now, right?

01:00:40.300 I just wanted to be, but of course, you know, I never want to be like that with people. And

01:00:45.680 sometimes people overstep. They don't mean to, they don't know, or sometimes as kids, but for Oscar,

01:00:50.500 it was always brutal. And so it was on and off. And when he was a little older, it never really

01:00:57.220 left in a way till he was like 16. He would, if I said, Oscar, why haven't you cleaned your room?

01:01:05.480 You've got to clean your room. You know, why haven't you cleaned your room? He goes, well,

01:01:07.720 why would I listen to you when you won't listen to me? And I would say, what do you mean? He goes,

01:01:10.940 well, you won't stop acting. So why am I going to clean the room? You know how that important is to me.

01:01:16.000 And so we really sat down and had a conversation about it. And I said, I said, you don't understand,

01:01:22.380 like I didn't ever expect to be famous. Like no one ever does. I don't think. None of the actors I

01:01:29.620 know, you go to drama school for four years and you hope you can pay your rent. And if you don't,

01:01:33.200 you'll go and do something else. But it's a really rare thing, let alone be really sort of successful.

01:01:37.820 That's just a crazy thing that just sort of happened. And I said, he said, well, why don't you just do

01:01:46.160 theater? Like when you were just doing theater before the movie thing, I understood people in the theater

01:01:51.340 were, you know, they would clap you and then you would have your normal life. I said, you know, well,

01:01:57.040 I really love the films as well. And that's right. I said to him, but I don't, it's not what I set out to do.

01:02:03.800 I didn't set out to be famous. I'm not trying to hurt you. You know, I understand I want to be there for you.

01:02:07.520 And he looked me straight in the face and he said, so if you had your time again,

01:02:11.620 would you do it differently? I was like, wow. I said, that's a really confronting question.

01:02:19.900 If I knew what was coming and how it might impact you, I said, I would find it really difficult.

01:02:28.460 I might've done things in a different way, but I said, I probably honestly still do it, Oscar.

01:02:33.960 And not for the fame or the money, but because the people I get to work with, I pinch myself every

01:02:42.300 day. Like I'm having the most amazing time. I'm working with incredible people. So imagine there's

01:02:47.520 something you love to do. And all of a sudden you get to work with other people who you just can't

01:02:53.560 believe every single day. I said, it's so fulfilling to me. But I remember thinking, that's a really

01:02:58.960 brilliant question for a 12, 13 year old to ask. It was a really difficult time. And I remember

01:03:04.720 there was a period where I thought, if I was truly loving, you know, I should just drop it.

01:03:10.920 For whatever reason, it's just too much for him to bear. Ava on the other hand has always been really

01:03:15.480 balanced about it. And I'll tell you a funny story about that. We arrived in Australia after a 24 hour

01:03:20.120 flight from New York. And once we got through customs, there were a lot of photographers. So

01:03:27.460 the way we would handle that is I would separate myself, the family would go ahead, it would, you

01:03:33.580 know, split them up. And ultimately they needed me in the photograph. So, and in Australia in

01:03:39.100 particular, the kids are famous because Deb is very famous too. So they want the family shot. So I would

01:03:45.120 just separate myself and Ava just came back and started to walk with me. I said, oh, babe, you 0.99

01:03:49.900 don't have to do that. It's fine. I guess it's okay. I said, we're walking along and they're taking

01:03:54.240 photos of us and flash, flash, flash, flash. People looking, people looking. I said, but what are you

01:04:00.980 for you? Like, by the way, Ava's just so people understand she's 15 now. So she would have been 10 or

01:04:04.940 11 at the time. I said, how is this for you? Like, would you prefer that I was just an accountant

01:04:09.420 like my dad and you never had to go through this? And she said that we just got off a first class

01:04:14.940 flight on Qantas from New York to Sydney. I can put up with this for like 40 seconds.

01:04:21.480 And I thought, you know, let's, she's just sort of super, super balanced about it and kind of gets

01:04:29.420 it. She's just always seen the, all right, there's a bit of a trade off here, but no, I'd still prefer

01:04:34.780 to fly first class for 24 hours and put up with two minutes here, you know? And then I've been lucky

01:04:40.740 in the paparazzi thing just to follow up. Now, I remember we came straight from the airport. I was

01:04:45.060 super worried and we were going down there to shoot a movie. So I was there for 12 months.

01:04:49.080 They all followed us. I'd rented a place and I'm like, oh, they know where I live. Of course,

01:04:53.960 they're going to know where I, where I was renting. And we pulled in and I could see behind me 15

01:04:59.420 photographers and Oscar was dark. He was dark. And I thought, oh no, we're back home. We've got a year

01:05:06.360 here with my family, with his cousins, with everything. So I just said, everyone go, okay,

01:05:11.700 you guys go inside. And I said, I'm going to unpack, but I wasn't going to unpack. I went out

01:05:15.500 of the garage and I went out onto the street and I started walking towards him. And you can see the

01:05:20.440 cameras come up like, oh, this is great. He's going to flip the bird. He's going to confront us.

01:05:24.580 Yeah. He's going to bring, this is like gold for them. That's what they want. Right.

01:05:28.680 And I, one guy, Shane, I said, hey Shane. And he puts his camera, he's sort of like the most senior

01:05:33.520 guy. I said, can I have a word? He comes over. They all put their cameras down. They didn't

01:05:37.840 quite know. I said, dude, we're here for a year. I said, you could see the airport. Like this really,

01:05:43.160 really bothers my son, which means it really, really bothers Deb and I. And I don't want to

01:05:47.860 get in a situation where we were hiding inside a house in Australia. And I said, so, but I understand

01:05:53.560 you need something. So what do you need? And he goes, we need you at the beach with your shirt off.

01:05:58.600 I said, I'll see you there, Bondi, tomorrow morning, 8.15. So I literally, I just made

01:06:05.120 a deal. I felt I made a deal with the devil, but I thought in the second I thought, okay,

01:06:09.920 this is the lesser of two evils, I guess. So I went down the next day and I trained with

01:06:15.200 my mate, Mike. And I said, Mike, I'm sorry, but I have a feeling there's going to be some

01:06:19.120 photographers when we get into that. And he was hilarious. He goes, awesome. Cause I've never

01:06:23.800 looked better. Like he's the same age as me, completely ripped. And so he's like, bring

01:06:29.040 it on. So we go out there. It was the most uncomfortable 20 minutes of my life because

01:06:34.300 there were 15 of them and they were in the water up to their waist. Like it wasn't like

01:06:41.660 we're on the beach. I'd given them this permission. And I was like, what have I done? What have

01:06:46.480 I done? This is so embarrassing. So I have a swim. I catch a couple of waves. I come back

01:06:50.000 in. Shane just nods at me and I said, we're good. And he goes, we're good. To their word,

01:06:54.140 never saw him again for 12 months. Not with my family. Like they would take me occasionally.

01:06:58.840 Like if I was somewhere, I get that. That's fine. I can live with that. So that was my little deal

01:07:05.020 with the devil, which worked out well. There was, I thought some honor amongst them and I was pretty

01:07:09.280 impressed that they kept that for 12 months and it would end up being a great year for us.

01:07:14.720 There's so many things I want to pull on that. One of them is just the amount of energy,

01:07:20.000 it takes to perform and then the amount of energy it takes to not perform. So to me,

01:07:29.240 the stage and the screen are very different and I want to explore them both in separate ways, but

01:07:33.400 let's go back to the greatest showman, the stage production. So when you came and stayed with us

01:07:38.980 in San Diego, I guess that was two years ago, right? Yeah.

01:07:41.880 When you and Irv came and one of the things that amazed me was the whole purpose of having you come

01:07:49.460 and spend a day and a night with us was to give you a break, right? It was like, I don't know how

01:07:55.820 many weeks or months you were into that, but it was a grueling schedule. It was hotel, hotel, hotel,

01:08:03.760 hotel. Deb and the kids are back home. It's just you and Irv. It's like, you can't even leave your

01:08:09.600 room. You're having meals in your room. I mean, it's this, it just, it's just struck me as, you

01:08:14.180 know, a very difficult experience. And we were like, look, we want you to have a totally normal

01:08:19.840 day where we're going to work out in the gym. We're going to do nothing. We're going to have a

01:08:24.920 home-cooked meal and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But you know, it just happened that like

01:08:29.020 my sister-in-law and her husband are in town. The kids are in town. So there's like all of my kids,

01:08:33.600 all of their kids, everybody's there. And like, they worship you like no other because

01:08:39.860 they don't understand you're not the greatest showman. Like they actually think you were the

01:08:44.800 greatest showman. Right. And what amazed me is- Actually, that's a movie I should have mentioned

01:08:50.180 too. The ones I'm proud of. I don't know why I didn't. I couldn't believe, because our thinking

01:08:56.080 was, okay, Hugh, let's just make this, we're going to go to the gym, go have a shower, go relax. We'll

01:09:01.900 call you when dinner's ready. But you couldn't wait to jump in the pool with the kids. You played

01:09:08.060 with them for like an hour and a half while I got dinner ready. And I just remember thinking,

01:09:13.900 Hugh, this is your chance to turn it off. Like you don't have to perform here. You don't have to

01:09:19.820 please these kids. This is your window to not please anybody, but just relax. And yet I was amazed

01:09:27.360 at how much, first of all, it didn't look like it was an obligation to you. You genuinely looked like

01:09:31.240 you were having fun, but I was just, I didn't know where the energy came from. That's really my

01:09:35.780 question. Where does that energy come from? It did surprise me because I was very tired.

01:09:41.280 It's a game of exhaustion. I guess the same for like during the NBA season, you're traveling and

01:09:46.900 this, and it's managing recovery. And like you, you're really just doing your best. And it's a bit

01:09:52.220 monk-like. And when you get a day off, because that was a day off for me, it was a rare thing to be in

01:09:57.700 the city without traveling and a day off. You think, okay, this is the time to recharge.

01:10:02.960 And when I was there, we jumped in the pool. Like, look, if I, I definitely would have jumped

01:10:08.620 in the pool with the kids. I love your kids. And the kids were there and I would have done it for

01:10:12.700 five minutes. You know what I mean? If, and done enough to, you know, okay, the kids have spent time

01:10:19.400 with me. They got to know me a little bit. It just was energizing. It was somehow genuinely fun.

01:10:25.480 First of all, the kids forgot within five minutes, I was the greatest showman. We were

01:10:29.800 just playing a game and they got competitive and I sort of felt like a kid again. And

01:10:33.980 you realize sometimes, particularly in a creative field, actually, I don't know if it's creative

01:10:38.980 or not. You've got to go outside your zone a little bit and it becomes an inspiration.

01:10:42.580 I, I learned this when I was at drama school. Like my teacher goes, if you're an actor and

01:10:48.440 you didn't say yes, when someone offers you a ticket to the ballet, then you're not a real

01:10:52.040 actor. And I'll be like the ballet, but I'm interacting. He goes, it's another

01:10:55.460 creative art form. You've got to, you don't know where the inspiration is going to come

01:10:58.560 from. If you're just going to listen to the songs that you think you like and go to the

01:11:01.700 movies that you like, you're just going to stay in that lane as an actor. Like you need

01:11:05.360 to mix it up. Right. So I didn't mean to do it, but in a way you could see, it was like,

01:11:12.460 I had been on my own. Like I've been with the group and then you get to the stage and you've

01:11:17.580 got 20,000 people and you're leading the group. And tell you, when you get home, you just

01:11:21.480 want to sleep and read. And I was just missing my kids, my family, just being silly and playing

01:11:27.940 in the afternoon where you don't care about whether you're overusing your voice or, you

01:11:32.940 know, and again, great food, wine, those berries. I remember awesome. What was it that you put

01:11:40.680 in? Was it monk? What was it?

01:11:42.420 You brought the wine though. That was the finest. That was the, that was the, that was the,

01:11:46.340 it was a Penrose, right? It was a Penfolds Grange.

01:11:49.340 Oh, Penfolds. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Penfolds Grange, which I'm happy to give them a plug

01:11:53.140 because it's probably one of the finest wines Australia has produced.

01:11:55.880 I have since been procuring it, not to the level of the bottle you bought. That was,

01:12:00.520 that was, that was one of the finest. Yeah. Penfolds. That's right. 0.99

01:12:03.060 But anyway, so that was that. It was a joy. It was a real joy. And by the way,

01:12:08.780 Irv has been my, like when I first knocked on the door to Deb's house, Irv was over there

01:12:13.600 helping a change of clocks. Like I was known Deb since I were 11. So, and it's become one of my

01:12:17.960 closest friends. And he ended up working with me and still does occasionally on things.

01:12:22.120 But we both went away that night just going, I didn't realize how much I needed that.

01:12:26.900 We're good friends, family barbecue, like a Sunday afternoon, just where you let loose. You have a

01:12:32.980 couple of beers, a glass of wine, good conversation. And it was totally energizing.

01:12:39.340 Yeah. It was great. And of course the next night when we came to the show,

01:12:43.900 I simply couldn't have imagined what that was going to be like because I had deliberately not

01:12:50.880 read any reviews also. So I knew nothing about this and it sounds funny, but going into it,

01:12:58.640 I literally assumed it was going to be a stage version of the movie, not realizing that it was

01:13:04.340 actually more of a stage version of your life, which included the movie and the opening tribute

01:13:10.640 to your family immediately makes that clear. Right. And it's so, it's so moving. It's so touching

01:13:19.100 that at the end, I mean, I, I, I don't know if you remember the email I sent you that night when we got

01:13:23.800 home, but I mean, I was, I was really kind of, it was very hard for me to all take in and how

01:13:31.120 gracious you are with an audience and how much energy you give. And that's the part that again,

01:13:36.420 of all the things that an actor can do, it's that ability to be on stage night after night and put

01:13:44.700 out that type of a performance. Because how many times did you do the greatest showman on stage

01:13:49.660 performance wise? 92.

01:13:52.520 Right. So on average, let's assume that each person is only seeing it once. So they're not going to go to

01:13:58.480 multiple shows. So you can, you know, you can largely figure out how many people have seen that,

01:14:03.440 but for each of them, it's the only time they see it. So you're the type of person who goes out there

01:14:09.720 and every night you're making sure that they see the best version possible. Like you have to do that

01:14:17.580 92 times. Very few people live in a world where that's the case. I mean, I think great athletes will

01:14:24.740 often say that, right? This Muhammad Ali used to say that all the time. You may never see me fight

01:14:30.920 again. I want to make sure every person knows on this night, they got to see the best version of

01:14:37.000 Muhammad Ali. I don't know where that energy comes from actually, because it's both, it's a, there's a

01:14:41.500 physical piece to it that I can sort of understand. Like you could be well enough conditioned and

01:14:46.480 obviously you are, but there's actually an emotional piece to that, that I can't relate to.

01:14:51.680 Well, first of all, thanks for saying those nice things. And there's, I think for me, the stage in

01:14:58.060 particular, whether it's an arena or the theater, it's as close to the spiritual, I think my job gets.

01:15:04.920 I've had moments on a soundstage where you're filming something and it feels incredibly intimate

01:15:09.480 and powerful and things are happening, but you rarely get that feeling of this is a sacred space.

01:15:15.060 I get it almost all the time and I make sure that I do everything I can every night to do that. So

01:15:22.060 there's a few things, for example, triggers for me. I never really wear aftershave, right? I just,

01:15:28.600 you know, occasionally I do it, but I usually do it on a special occasion. So for me, I always wear

01:15:36.080 aftershave when I'm on stage because just that smell makes me go, oh, oh, special night tonight.

01:15:42.640 It's a visceral thing to waiting in the wings before. I don't look through the thing. I want

01:15:49.860 to hear that sound of the audience gathering. I actually had an idea, which I got talked out

01:15:56.140 of on that tour of warming up on stage as people were entering. I'm like, why do we have to have

01:16:02.360 this feeling of, oh, we're waiting for Hugh and we're in and we're waiting in the show and the lights

01:16:09.480 go out and there he is. I was like, everyone does that. What if they saw me on my foam roller and I'm

01:16:17.300 out there and I just say, hey, what if it was more like in my living room and then we're still going

01:16:22.640 to do the big opening and the lights are going to go out, but what if we just dropped all this

01:16:26.780 pretense of, oh my God, you came to see. Anyway, I got talked out of that, I think for security

01:16:33.060 reasons in the end. Would you get nervous before each show?

01:16:37.100 Yeah. Yeah. Which you mentally just go into excitement and there's definitely a buzz.

01:16:44.080 There always is for me and it comes out of that. I want this to be a special night. And for me,

01:16:50.820 when I go to the theater or to a show, like I've been to lots of concerts and it doesn't matter how

01:16:58.160 good they sound or how big the production is. If I feel like this is the exact show they did in

01:17:04.040 Portland, Oregon, like I'm pretty sure this is the exact same show, except hello Melbourne.

01:17:09.780 Hello Sydney. That's it. I just go, oh, we're just sort of churning out the same show. It just feels,

01:17:15.680 doesn't feel soul for me. I always want an audience member to go,

01:17:19.140 I was there on the night when, you know, that feeling of something happened that night

01:17:24.440 because it is a special thing. And I know what it takes. And I love going to the, the reason I

01:17:29.920 stand in the wings is because when I'm sitting in my seat and I'm reading my playbill and I hear the

01:17:36.020 hubbub and that I literally get tingled. Like I'm so excited. I've always been like that since I was a

01:17:40.980 kid. So clearly is where I'm meant to be. But so it isn't, it certainly is important to me. And

01:17:49.140 I'm actually a, an introvert by nature, not an extrovert, but somehow I can feel on a stage,

01:17:54.620 even like in San Diego that night, more relaxed. I would stare, say my heartbeat is even lower

01:18:00.900 apart from when I'm dancing than when I'm just on stage, I can feel very calm and myself.

01:18:07.440 I don't know where that comes from. I think that's, I don't know where that comes from.

01:18:11.500 That's just, maybe that's born, not made, but that I certainly had that feeling.

01:18:17.040 Did you have to train yourself to do that? Because to be an introvert and yet to be able

01:18:22.440 to be so energized by that type of an experience seems counterintuitive to me.

01:18:28.800 Yeah. Well, the reason I got into acting, why I wanted to do it, I told you I was brought up in

01:18:34.600 a very religious sort of upbringing. I certainly that idea that there is a spiritual element to

01:18:42.780 life. There is a higher purpose to life, do everything you do. The activity in the end is

01:18:48.300 not as important as fulfilling that. And my definition of that is far broader than what

01:18:53.540 it was growing up. I certainly don't believe there is a literal heaven and hell. And only those people

01:18:59.020 who believe this set of beliefs are going to the heaven and everyone else. But that's what I was

01:19:03.180 tall growing up. I don't believe that. I don't think it's as linear in any way. But I wanted to

01:19:09.240 get into acting for that Socrates idea of know thyself. Like in the Delphic Oracle, there's just

01:19:16.260 two words, know thyself. That's it. Understand who you are, why you're here. And acting for me was the

01:19:21.960 way to do that. For you, it was medicine. And that was your path. You're meant to be clearly meant to be

01:19:28.260 beyond, right? For me, it was acting. So I was always more interested in that. So I can tell you now,

01:19:37.440 the most spiritual moments I've had in my life have all been on stage where it's like the moment in a

01:19:49.100 movie where everything stops and things are floating and that feeling of timelessness where things can be

01:19:55.760 happening. You can be singing a song, but somehow you can be acting. You feel a connection with 2,000

01:20:02.160 strangers, 20,000 strangers. We're just all of a sudden together. That feeling of consciousness,

01:20:06.840 whatever that is. I've only, I've had those always on stage in a different way, obviously with family

01:20:14.040 and close friends, you can get that moment. But that's certainly that outer body experience that

01:20:18.720 people talk about, that spiritual experience for me has only ever happened on stage. And that's why

01:20:24.000 I always go back to it. That's always my goal. Why I was embarrassed by that line in that review,

01:20:32.140 he just wants you to love him, loving you, loving him. I'm like, oh, no, no, no, that's not why I'm

01:20:36.960 trying. Is that, geez, okay. That's not my higher self. That's my lower self, if it's true. I really

01:20:42.200 want something deeper. And so that's why, weirdly, on stage, and I don't think I've learned it. I think

01:20:49.520 that's somehow a mass of everything I'm trying to do and being in this world of feeling completely

01:20:54.480 at home and connected on stage. It's where I have that spiritual meaning, I guess.

01:21:01.080 Is it different if Deb, Oscar, and Ava are in the crowd?

01:21:05.440 Yes. Yes and no. Like, I really am trying to be, it's actually wonderful to me. Like when you guys

01:21:15.080 were there in San Diego, I really love it, because I know in a way that you were seeing a different

01:21:23.680 side to me, and a real side of me. If you ever see me on stage, and I walk out and I do this,

01:21:30.660 I did it at the Oscars, I did it at everything. So my, everything I do first off is I try to find

01:21:37.060 their eyes. Now my kids look down because they're just terrified I'm going to call them out or put a

01:21:41.680 spotlight on them. I always do this to Deb, because this is where one of the greatest gifts for someone

01:21:49.620 who is sensitive to have a marriage with someone where you know that no matter what happens, if I

01:21:56.000 completely suck, if I die, if the career is over, if whatever happens is over, she's there for me no 0.78

01:22:02.240 matter what. So when we were together that, that night of Sunset Boulevard, she always says it was a 0.98

01:22:08.320 real, we were already married, but she said you could feel I'd become a star that night. Like there was

01:22:14.960 hubbub and talk, and she's there at interval. And then after, and all I remember was coming backstage,

01:22:21.040 it was excitement. It was a big thing for me, big, my big lead role, I guess, in a way.

01:22:27.180 And I said, I just need to see Deb. I said, a bunch of people came backstage. I said, I just want to see

01:22:32.980 Deb first. And I remember I just held her and I said, no matter what happens, you're the most important

01:22:37.300 thing to me, like anything else. And so now to sort of remind myself of that, I always put my hand over

01:22:44.140 my heart, just as a signal to her to say, you're the most important thing to me. And it gives,

01:22:50.340 it just really calms me down. So in that way, it's different. At the Oscars, it really helped.

01:22:55.920 Because when you go out, and this is when I was hosting the Oscars, if you see

01:22:59.560 Meryl Streep, Brad Pitt, Angela, like they were front row, front three rows, just every star that

01:23:04.580 ever lived, who are all looking at you like, what were you thinking, man? Like, why did you say yes to

01:23:09.140 this? Just to see Deb, it somehow puts that perfectionist in me, just quines it down. Everything's

01:23:16.540 okay. No matter what happens, everything's going to be okay. I feel like you've asked me a bunch of

01:23:22.020 questions. I think it's my turn. Can I ask you a real tough one? Can I ask you a tough one?

01:23:26.760 Sure.

01:23:27.200 And I actually don't ask this of anyone, but I remember I was very moved you asking, or just

01:23:36.180 explaining in your book, and you said it on this, the eulogy qualities as opposed to resume qualities.

01:23:44.280 And of course, as a doctor, you've seen a lot of death. You've experienced it. I'm sure you have

01:23:50.500 patients who are facing it or faced it. Are you scared of death? Yourself.

01:23:55.800 So it's really funny. You haven't read the epilogue of my book, which I only wrote

01:24:06.540 maybe a couple months ago. And in the epilogue, I actually answer this question for the first time.

01:24:16.700 Oh, wow.

01:24:17.700 And because I don't think I understood it until very recently, I would say I had always been afraid

01:24:27.840 of death, not afraid of dying. And they're obviously different, right? Dying is the mechanical process

01:24:34.400 of going away. I think I probably have the same level of trepidation about that. There's the

01:24:41.240 uncertainty. Am I going to die in a car accident? Am I going to die this way or that way? But that's

01:24:46.860 actually a far distant concern to me. I think my greatest fear was my fear of not being here.

01:24:54.080 And I think that fear took a dramatic step forward when I became a father. And I think the reason for

01:25:03.520 that is the constant tension between what I'm doing and what I should be doing. And therefore,

01:25:13.860 I think my initial kind of obsession with this topic of longevity, which started about 10 years ago,

01:25:21.320 in some ways, although I didn't know it at the time, was really trying to delay this thing I didn't

01:25:29.060 want as much as possible, which was leaving this planet without having done what I was supposed to

01:25:36.520 do. Because deep down, I kind of knew I was doing a bad job of it, which was not being a good enough

01:25:43.720 dad, not being a good enough husband, not being a good enough fill in the blank. So I think that

01:25:50.840 through everything that I've gone through in the last year and so, I'm now, I've got more confidence

01:25:59.720 in the stuff that I'm doing that I actually don't feel afraid of dying in the way I used to.

01:26:05.160 Right. You can answer those questions in the affirmative. Like, I'm a good dad, I'm a good

01:26:11.260 husband.

01:26:12.140 Yep, exactly.

01:26:12.920 Yeah, that's pretty awesome. That's a great place to be. I mean, I think if I was just talking

01:26:18.940 to my mate yesterday about that, the idea of coming to terms with, you know, I've done enough. Like,

01:26:25.180 there's more I want to do, but we've done enough. It takes a huge weight off. I think for people like

01:26:31.600 us, that idea of having to do more.

01:26:33.940 Let's talk about this in the context of The Fountain, right? Which is, I think, one of the

01:26:37.880 most amazing movies. I mean, obviously, you and I are both just such fans of Darren. And I think

01:26:45.160 he's literally just one of the most gifted people imaginable. And what I like about that movie,

01:26:52.540 oh, there's so many things I like about it, but is that it's open to so many interpretations. And

01:26:57.060 I actually want to hear yours because I'll share with you mine. And I've never heard Darren's. I don't

01:27:01.660 know if Darren's actually spoken about what he intended it to be.

01:27:05.160 He has. Has he? Before you tell me, I want to tell you what I think. But

01:27:10.380 obviously, the theme of this movie is immortality, right? This is a big part of it.

01:27:15.460 How did you get inside that character of Tomas, Tom, Tommy? How did that challenge you? And how did

01:27:22.500 it make you think about your own mortality, if at all? Hugely. It was 17 years ago now,

01:27:28.920 Darren came to see me do The Boy From Oz, a musical. I was playing Peter Allen. And he just-

01:27:35.160 He said, I've got a script for you. And I read the script. And I was like,

01:27:38.620 I read it that night because I was such a huge fan. I thought, I don't fully understand this,

01:27:44.000 but I think this is about the meaning of life. Like this is as close as I've read to,

01:27:49.020 this is what it's all about. And I just said, I'd love to do it. We spent a year

01:27:53.920 working on it before we rolled one foot of film. I did a year of Tai Chi. We did yoga. I had to be

01:28:01.240 in this stuff where I'm floating in space. Took me a year to get my hips, you know, flexible enough

01:28:07.600 to be able to do the lotus position. And also just understanding the history of it and the mentality

01:28:13.840 of it and the obsession of a man who I'm now literally, as I'm speaking it, I'm seeing some

01:28:23.680 of the parallels with your chapter in your book, right? He's loved for his wife who is sick and

01:28:31.160 dying. And he's raced to heal her and cure death. And he's obsession with that and the absolute need

01:28:41.040 to cure death. When I spent a lot of time talking to doctors, there's a lot of doctors who believe

01:28:46.120 that's in some ways, theoretically possible that we could cure every disease, which is interesting.

01:28:54.920 Probably another question I want to ask you, but I had to go further inside, deeper into my own

01:29:01.880 emotional reservoirs journey. And in many ways, it was the most lost I've ever got in a character.

01:29:12.080 I'm not an obsessive person by nature. I'm quite liberant. I'm balanced. Even when I was partying

01:29:20.200 with my mates, I'd be the guy at three in the morning going, you know, guys, diminishing returns

01:29:25.140 from here. I'm out. And they'd all be dead or be dead or midday the next day. And I was just

01:29:30.420 naturally, that's, that was my thing. Or maybe I was too scared to kind of just fully go down the

01:29:35.220 rabbit hole. But, and I'm so glad you called that out, Darren, because he also became a great friend.

01:29:40.780 And this was actually in film, the closest I got to a spiritual experience where the rolling of camera

01:29:47.280 and stopping of camera, just the blur and that feeling of living, particularly when I was in the

01:29:52.340 spaceship in that bubble, there were moments where it touched on emotions for me, where an hour later,

01:29:58.160 I was still crying, like everyone's gone to lunch, and I'm wrecked with sobs, like it was touching on

01:30:03.300 things. And that was totally because of Darren and his belief in the sacredness of a, of a creative space.

01:30:12.620 He's just a pure artist. And funnily enough, all that stuff, you know, that Tim was talking about,

01:30:20.140 the ayahuasca and all of that, which I'm not sure how much I should say, but this sort of came out a

01:30:26.340 lot of that. But this is way back when, you know, Darren's always been a, a searcher in the,

01:30:32.280 in consciousness, in the broader sense of consciousness, meaning of life, the eternal

01:30:37.960 immortality. And he's not afraid to ask those questions. I feel like I've gone off track a little

01:30:44.280 bit. Like the fountain, like I feel, but it was certainly the most, it was the only time I came home

01:30:49.660 from a movie where Deb said, it took you three or four days to get your feedback on the ground.

01:30:53.240 It took me a while to get grounded again. And I remember, by the way, with Darren, I've never

01:30:58.740 really had this before, but I formed such a creative bond with him that there was all that

01:31:06.740 time in the spaceship where I was on my own and imagining in this, where he's gone on to live,

01:31:14.540 you know, forever. Darren would be right next to the camera, the cameras here, and he would

01:31:21.120 just be right there. And I would ask for him. So I said, Darren, can I have you close? And just

01:31:25.740 him coming there would open, literally rip my heart open. He just created a feeling on space

01:31:33.180 in the space that was sacred. And in terms of what it's about, I used to ask him all the time,

01:31:39.340 like, dude, can you explain this? And he goes, what do you think? I said, well, I think X by Z. And he

01:31:45.180 goes, yeah. I said, right. But what's it about? And he goes, no, I'm not going to tell you. Like,

01:31:51.180 it doesn't matter. It's whatever it is for you, as it is for the audience. I go, yeah, I got it,

01:31:58.140 but come on. So I remember I kind of, I would bug him about it all the time. And when we went on the,

01:32:05.960 we'd be at press conferences and a panel, and he'd get asked a question. And he would start

01:32:11.420 explaining the mood. And I'd be like, looking down, I'm like, that's what that was about.

01:32:17.040 I was completely wrong. Like I'm literally, I'm on the complete wrong page there. And he would look

01:32:22.840 down at me and just sort of smile at me. Like, it's okay. Because it was true for you. It is true.

01:32:28.460 I actually don't, I wish I could remember exactly, but I had the tall timeline. Like everyone asks,

01:32:35.020 which is the present? Yeah. And I don't know why for me, it resonates that the present is the present.

01:32:41.420 That's the way it spoke to me, was that the present was the present and that the past and

01:32:47.200 the future were sort of metaphors and were spaces of sort of emotional travel. But that what was

01:32:54.560 really happening between Tommy and Isabel was actually her physically dying in front of him

01:33:00.720 and him not being able to save her and him struggling with this loss of control and this

01:33:07.580 fact that we're mortal. I could be entirely wrong.

01:33:10.620 That's what I thought. That's what I thought. And I think from memory, Darren at the press

01:33:17.860 conference was saying the future is the present, but I'm actually not very confident about it.

01:33:23.080 I have to, I have to, we're going to, we'll bug him. Well, now what? Now I'll just bug him. Yeah.

01:33:27.840 He's one of the most genius filmmakers. And by the way, so much fun. Like he is really,

01:33:32.900 really fun and a good funny guy, super smart, super interesting. And yeah, I love him. We,

01:33:40.460 we catch up all the time now. And it's so bizarre that I I've forgotten again, what the whole meaning

01:33:46.340 is. But to me, I sort of love the mystery of that movie. Like the, it's sort of the mystery of life.

01:33:53.700 It is whatever you, whatever we want to believe it to be. It is actually, this is a question I want

01:33:59.140 to ask you. Manifestation, right? You hear all about it. Are you, are you buying into it? Do you

01:34:04.940 believe it? I don't know. I mean, you know, I think I'm still in many ways sort of grounded to

01:34:12.120 my science, my reality. I, what about you? I'm a recent convert to it. You're evolving. Yeah.

01:34:23.480 I actually, my, my dad was always about it. Always this. And in my head, I'm like,

01:34:29.220 it just sounds nice. And I, I get the placebo effect. If you believe something that's probably

01:34:33.580 going to come true. And certainly with fears, like don't hit the tree, don't hit the tree. Oh my God,

01:34:38.120 the tree, right? If you're thinking about obsessively, you're heading that way. But

01:34:42.120 I used to think, no, and actually my life is a good example. I used to say, I used to say to

01:34:49.900 people like, if I had manifested when I was 23, I wouldn't have thought up half the stuff that I've

01:34:57.900 done or has happened to me, not even a quarter of it. I would have had far less sort of scope to

01:35:04.000 imagine what could be. So maybe I would have limited my life if that was true, you know? So that's not

01:35:10.100 what it's about. So I was introduced to it. Sometimes I play it, play games. Like Devin and

01:35:17.880 I play backgammon. We play backgammon a lot, like probably 15, 20 games a day. We're in the

01:35:23.500 400, 500 a month. Yeah. It's like our little, backgammon is such a great game because it's

01:35:28.320 five minutes. Like chess is like a commitment. It's minimum 30 to an hour. You just don't really

01:35:34.100 often find that time, right? Backgammon, you're going to just go and play one game, three games.

01:35:38.260 Anyway, when I was first introduced to the idea, I wanted to believe it because I was hearing it

01:35:45.080 from a life coach that I still see to this day. And I thought, you know what? I'm going to test

01:35:50.920 this out. I'm going to test this out and backgammon. And it worked. It literally worked. This whole,

01:35:59.400 I was losing my, for the month, by an, there was no way I was going to win. I was like, all right,

01:36:05.680 this doesn't make any sense that I'm going to win this month. I have to win like 20 games to three

01:36:10.180 or something like that to win another. Okay. I'm practicing. Close my eyes. Believe it. Feel it.

01:36:15.940 Imagine it. Okay. Imagine your senses around it. They're feeling when the dice is rolling. It's

01:36:21.000 a double six. The fact, the frustration of Deb that I'm winning, winning, winning. Could it be?

01:36:25.720 And I won. And I'm like, I almost didn't want to test it again because I was, anyway, I'm a recent

01:36:31.920 convert, but I imagine like, even if you publicly said, yeah, I'm kind of into it, you would probably

01:36:37.600 get completely destroyed. You would be professionally destroyed. But anyway, I'm just sort of,

01:36:45.640 that's why it's a very unfair question, but I do find it fascinating. And maybe for me,

01:36:51.320 it goes back to my biblical religious sort of upbringing. All that stuff in the Bible of you

01:36:58.500 can move mountains. And if you believe it, if you know, what is prayer? What is prayer to imagination?

01:37:06.400 Then you hear Coach K, that famous letter to self. Have you heard that? Coach K's letter to self.

01:37:11.560 No. I think it was on CBS Sunday morning, he used to do this

01:37:14.800 thing where, letter to myself. So you write a letter to your eight-year-old self. Listen to

01:37:20.460 Coach K's. It is so good. And Coach K would have all the players do it or?

01:37:24.480 No, he did it. He did it. Okay. He did it for himself, a letter to himself.

01:37:29.180 When he was eight. You can Google it. No, when he was.

01:37:31.680 But a letter to his eight-year-old self. And he talked about, he didn't say the word

01:37:35.620 manifestation, but the power of imagination. He said, if there's one thing I could tell you,

01:37:40.680 all those hours spent imagining that you're hitting the game time buzzer when you're really

01:37:46.980 on your driveway out the back and you're going past six defenders and there you are laying up

01:37:52.900 and you win the championship and he goes, those hours you spend are preparing you for the future

01:38:00.000 in ways you do not yet understand. To me, that's very plausible, right? I think

01:38:05.100 that that's entirely plausible because I think that is rehearsing a set of skills and literally

01:38:12.300 myelinating a set of channels in the body that do come into play. Where I can't come up with a

01:38:19.540 plausible explanation is where it purely impacts randomness that's out of your hands. In other

01:38:25.600 words, I can absolutely see how it can actually material alter the course of something you have

01:38:31.700 control over, but I don't understand the mechanism by which it would go otherwise, which of course

01:38:36.380 is exactly the great conundrum of how one reconciles religion and science, right? Like

01:38:42.300 religion makes sense to me in the sense of why it exists. It exists because we had

01:38:49.240 no tool to explain the natural universe until 400 years ago. Until the 17th century, there was no

01:38:57.920 tool to codify nature. So if you think about how many thousands of years our species existed

01:39:07.960 without a framework or a tool to explain what we saw, why is it bright out? Why is it dark?

01:39:16.040 Why are there stars? Why does anything happen? Well, if we don't have a tool that can say, well,

01:39:23.340 there are gravitational forces and this planet is rotating this way, well, then you have to come up

01:39:28.440 with something plausible and that something plausible becomes stories and those stories become

01:39:33.980 the basis of religions. And that's why going back to a question you asked me a long time ago,

01:39:39.340 I think that's why science is very difficult for people to understand. It is not remotely innate.

01:39:47.560 Evolution has not at all prepared us for it. We have not been selected for it. The scientific method

01:39:53.520 is literally only 400 years old. The idea of controlled experiments, like this is a fraction of

01:39:59.760 time in evolution's history, right? This is less than one thousandth of 1%. So the likelihood that

01:40:08.700 this would be innate to any of us is preposterous, right? And I'm sure there are some people for whom

01:40:13.860 these ideas come more naturally than others, but just as there are probably some people for whom

01:40:18.340 acting comes more naturally than others. But the reality of it is if you want to be good at your craft,

01:40:22.720 you've got to practice it. And similarly, learning to think critically is very difficult and very

01:40:28.260 unnatural. We're wired to pattern recognize and come up with stories. Right. Absolutely.

01:40:34.860 Evolution actually prepared us very well to do that because you were rewarded for that

01:40:39.880 evolutionarily, right? Right. That's fascinating. What story do you tell your kids?

01:40:45.820 I actually love to try to explain science to them. But if they say, dad, is God real?

01:40:54.040 Yeah, this is where my wife and I struggle a little bit. I think my wife likes to demure a 1.00

01:40:58.240 bit more and say, well, I mean, I think that's, you know, she'll say more like that's a bit of a

01:41:02.780 mystery. I'll just say, look, there's no evidence of that, you know? Amazingly, I haven't been asked

01:41:09.460 that question directly. But what I like to be able to do is kind of not get dogmatic with them and say,

01:41:16.380 of course not, that's a stupid question, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But instead say, well, 0.99

01:41:20.600 you know, it's an unanswerable question. Let's be honest. It's an unanswerable question.

01:41:25.160 So maybe you'll find yourself being an agnostic more than an atheist. But let's think through how

01:41:31.340 would one even go about answering that question? And how would you test some of the claims that

01:41:35.280 would come along with that question? Yeah.

01:41:37.220 Things like that. So don't read, don't read your social media tomorrow. There's going to be a lot

01:41:41.180 of evidence just plowing in. Yeah, exactly. On this thought of immortality, let's talk a little

01:41:49.520 bit about Logan because how much affection do you have for Logan? Like he's been such a part of your

01:41:56.140 life for so long. It's like, I can't imagine how you must feel for him because my affection for him

01:42:02.260 is unbelievable, right? Like he's not even real. And yet I feel an affection for him the way I feel

01:42:09.780 an affection for you. Now explain how that's possible, right? Like you're a real person.

01:42:14.480 You are my friend. I have affection for you. Logan is a character and yet I feel for him. I weep

01:42:22.420 for him. How is that possible? That's a really, that's a great question. I think there's something

01:42:29.180 archetypal about the character. I'll go back to my personal connection with it, but it's a very

01:42:34.140 archetypal character. It's been the basis of many, the outsider, the reluctant, the hero. He's a mixture

01:42:40.160 of where we want to be. Well, most of us want to be like, that's why he's so cool. And I wish I was

01:42:47.640 Wolverine and marches to the beat of his own drum. And yet he's imperfect too, which is so important.

01:42:53.860 Perfect. So we can relate in that way. I have such effect. When you're acting, you have to fall in

01:43:01.100 love with the character. You've probably heard that before, but you sort of do. You have to,

01:43:05.700 even if you're playing, you know, Macbeth, if you're playing someone who murders the king because he

01:43:09.580 wants to become king on any level, yeah, this guy's a monster, right? But that's where Shakespeare's

01:43:15.240 brilliant. You get inside his head, his ambition, and you can see it coming. You see his failings.

01:43:21.080 You see his desire. It goes without saying every character I've played, there's some level

01:43:26.060 of love or affection. But with Wolverine, I felt at the beginning, like he was teaching me. It's going

01:43:33.300 to sound weird because I'm a people-pleaser and he's the opposite, right? He almost to his own

01:43:43.620 detriment is an outsider. I'm desperate to be an insider. I will do whatever I need to be to be

01:43:49.520 on the inside. And so playing someone who was the opposite was so great for me. So kind of relieving 0.81

01:43:55.000 and fun. And it was difficult at the front too. The first, it was, again, not a particularly happy

01:44:04.340 set. I didn't feel comfortable for quite a long time. I didn't feel I really had the support

01:44:09.920 on set. And just the very first one? Just the first one.

01:44:15.000 Okay. Which was what year? Was that 2000?

01:44:17.060 99. We were filming.

01:44:18.180 99. Okay.

01:44:18.980 And I was, you know, someone else was playing the role. DeGroix Scott had the part,

01:44:21.800 and he got injured on another film and that film went over. So they had to recast. So I was sort of

01:44:26.760 like, I got cast. They were shooting. It was their third day of shooting and I was coming to do an

01:44:33.260 audition on set. So I was a bit of a last minute thing. I could just feel a bunch of people like,

01:44:39.720 ah, we had the guy, like, who's this guy? And then I just don't think I found my feet for a while.

01:44:45.220 I was trying to, I was coming from the theater. We rehearsed, let's work it out together. And it just

01:44:50.480 wasn't that. And, and I felt very much on the outside. And I actually thought I was going to

01:44:56.040 get fired pretty reliably, felt that I was close to getting fired. And the humiliation of that.

01:45:01.980 I remember spending a weekend talking to Deb and I was just bitching to her about this person,

01:45:07.400 that person, you know, this situation. And she actually said to me, she goes,

01:45:13.440 hmm, I don't think you've done enough work. I said, what? She goes, I can, I understand why

01:45:18.940 you're angry and probably a bit embarrassed and scared, but it sounds to me like you actually,

01:45:23.340 you haven't done the work. Like, and a real, I spent all that weekend and I went, oh, that was,

01:45:29.340 that's another TSN moment for me. That's right. Yep. A great loving thing from your wife,

01:45:36.040 great spouse to kind of hold your hand. I know. Yeah. It's how terrible you poor thing. And they 1.00

01:45:41.200 shouldn't have done this and more. But you got to pull your finger out and get to work. So,

01:45:46.600 and I did. And on that Monday morning, I went in and I, instead of trying to make scenes work,

01:45:53.060 I just had, like the first thing I did that day, I ad-libbed everything. I ad-libbed, I rewrote it,

01:45:58.420 I did everything. I said, I'm not doing any of the dialogue. I was like, I just sort of took over

01:46:01.820 in a way, like I was forced to, because I felt like I was fighting for my life.

01:46:06.080 By the way, that's something I've got. I'm a pretty nice guy, but if you back me into a corner,

01:46:10.240 you're going to see the Wolverine in me. That's definitely, I definitely have that. And it's

01:46:13.840 disappeared. I've sort of got off track a bit, but I just felt like I owed you a bit of an

01:46:18.300 explanation of that first one. So I felt in a way even closer to the character because of that

01:46:24.600 situation. Then it was clear to me, I was getting calls from the studio. You could just feel when

01:46:31.160 things are turning around. When you're in a position, you're on set and they're not loving

01:46:34.760 what you're doing, it's like you've got a bad smell. People just away, you're not getting invited

01:46:39.540 to the drink after thing. And you can just feel there's a jockeying for, oh, don't get

01:46:45.820 close. So he's a nice guy, that guy, Hubert. And then you feel them coming towards you, right?

01:46:50.900 And I'm getting calls. So I knew that things were turning around. I had no idea what would

01:46:55.040 happen to the film at all. The success of it, no one knew that. That was a bit of a shock

01:47:00.540 to everybody, I think. But over the years, my affection just got deeper and deeper. And by the

01:47:07.280 way, people, I remember people saying to me like, oh, you're doing another one. Like,

01:47:10.560 doesn't it get boring? All I wanted to say to him was like, this character couldn't be further

01:47:15.900 from me. And it's like, imagine you went to the gym, you got yourself into a greater shape,

01:47:21.840 and then you didn't go to that gym for two years. And then all of a sudden said, right,

01:47:24.780 we're back in the gym again. And you're like, oh, how do you do it again? It was always like that.

01:47:29.860 And I always had this feeling from the first one, I was reading the Japanese saga and the first one,

01:47:35.480 I'm like, this is the story we're going to tell. And I just didn't really have a say in it. And so

01:47:41.720 by the time we got to the last one, where I had a say, I was really adamant about what we were going

01:47:48.060 to do. And I'd always felt like I'd let the character down a little bit, if that makes sense.

01:47:53.140 There was more to the character. And I could easily rationalize that in an X-Men movie because

01:47:57.240 you're one of, I mean, he's one of the more popular characters, but you're still one of

01:48:00.200 12 characters. And on any level, if you're the writer, you've got 120 minutes, you've got 12

01:48:06.620 characters. You just don't, you may have three scenes for your character if you're the, if you're

01:48:12.080 the main one. So prior to Logan was Origins, probably the one that most featured you.

01:48:17.780 Right. X-Men Origins, then the Wolverine.

01:48:20.980 Yeah. Origins was, was what? Oh, nine Origins.

01:48:23.480 Yeah. Yeah.

01:48:24.160 Which was unbelievable. Like, I mean, I've probably only seen it 51 or 52 times, but I

01:48:32.260 mean, it's, it's, it's just unbelievable.

01:48:36.040 I still then felt frustrated that we hadn't got to the core of who this character, I just

01:48:41.260 really felt there was a deeper story to tell. And there was resistance for sure. Not amongst

01:48:46.860 the key people at Fox, to be honest, you know, the key people were like, let's go for it.

01:48:50.860 But then it was like, if we go R-rated, that's, that's probably a hundred million we're leaving

01:48:55.040 on the table. Like, you know, we've spent all these years building it. And then I said,

01:48:59.840 got to call it Logan, because this is actually about more the human being is super, uh, no,

01:49:04.340 like we've spent 17 years building a brand. Yeah. Harley Davidson's Harley Davidson. You don't

01:49:09.000 all of a sudden call the Harley Davidson Terry. Like that's a Harley. So that we need Wolverine on the

01:49:14.260 post. And I said, me and Jim were like, no. And, and again, they went with it. There's a lot of

01:49:19.120 bold steps. And I, I guess that's why I was super proud of it because I knew it was going to be my

01:49:25.080 last one. I know that. And it just, it just kills me to hear you say it still. I know that's true.

01:49:31.000 And it upsets me so much. I didn't want to have any regrets about it. I didn't want to have any

01:49:37.880 sort of, because I, then I would be doing another one probably because I wouldn't have to lose myself,

01:49:42.180 you know, so I just, going back to your original question. I just still pinch myself that I got

01:49:50.580 to play such a great role that I feel at peace with it, that I got to do it in nine different

01:49:55.460 movies that anyone who knows me from anything just knows that if they knew me before I went

01:50:05.100 for the audition for Wolverine, I wasn't getting the part. Like it's not, so it was felt in every way,

01:50:09.900 it just felt like beyond great. A TSN moment. When Patrick dies, I mean, when Professor dies,

01:50:16.880 of course, how, I mean, first of all, that is to me, one of the most startling scenes in the movie

01:50:22.560 that you just don't expect. And what's so heartbreaking about it is how he doesn't realize it's,

01:50:30.920 he thinks it's Logan, right? And how deliberate was that?

01:50:35.560 Very. That was very deliberate. And I, that's where like the writers and Jim Mangold, they,

01:50:42.540 they just made so many decisions. I was just immediately so proud of it. When I watched,

01:50:46.980 first of all, Patrick was incredible. That scene, prior to him dying, he does that monologue,

01:50:51.720 which is admitting his failures and faults and his regrets and live. It's not too late for you.

01:51:02.240 Live your life. I know.

01:51:03.440 You can live, like it's so beautiful, beautifully written, incredibly, beautifully performed.

01:51:09.360 His affection for your daughter is, is unbelievable. And he's basically trying to give you this one

01:51:16.380 last chance to make it all right. I remember sitting next to Patrick Stewart and Jim Mangold,

01:51:22.380 the writer director, who I've done three movies with, is one of my closest friends in Berlin.

01:51:27.360 So we go to the Berlin Film Festival, which I wrote down on a sheet of papers. This is the type of movie

01:51:33.080 that will premiere in Berlin, like film film. This is going to be seen as a film, not a superhero movie,

01:51:39.200 but a film about a real character. So we're sitting there and that scene and Jim just directed this.

01:51:48.140 So, well, I obviously wasn't there because my carriage is in the grave, spoiler alert, if you haven't seen.

01:51:53.060 But where she walks up, all the other kids walk off. They've done the funeral.

01:51:59.540 She walks up to the X, the two sticks that have been put in the thing. She just takes it out,

01:52:04.220 tips it over onto its side into an X. I could get emotional. I could cry now just thinking about it,

01:52:10.740 just weeping. It was so, because in many ways, going back to telling you about my upbringing,

01:52:17.120 that idea of this is how you were taught. I was taught when I was a kid, this is religion.

01:52:21.860 And at some point you have to become your own man. And Wolverine was always his own man,

01:52:28.320 but actually he wasn't really an insider. In the end, he was an X-Man. Like he really was.

01:52:34.220 It's the epitome of what X-Man. I thought the poetry in that moment,

01:52:39.100 and we didn't know if we were going to kill Wolverine or not. When we started it.

01:52:42.640 Really?

01:52:43.180 Of course, it was a discussion. And we all said, unless we earn that moment, then it's a stunt.

01:52:48.440 It's just like, oh, it's one. And then it'll piss people off. If we get it right,

01:52:52.760 it was that feeling that I had in that cinema. We were just, whoa. And I remember just grabbing Jim's,

01:52:59.060 like put my hands on their legs and I turned to Patrick and he was just crying. And,

01:53:02.900 you know, we realized it was 17 years and such a gift in our business where you go in,

01:53:08.980 you meet people, you become super close three months later. See you later. It's a really odd

01:53:13.560 kind of business in that way. Yeah. Thanks for asking me that.

01:53:19.380 I don't know if you remember this. Actually, it was at Darren's birthday,

01:53:21.780 Darren's 50th birthday. You and I were sitting next to each other and we were talking about the

01:53:27.220 last scene of Logan because I had recently rewatched it. And I sheepishly admitted, I was

01:53:35.140 like, you're not going to believe this brother. But the first time I watched this, when Logan says,

01:53:40.600 this is what it feels like, I thought he was talking about death.

01:53:44.720 Right.

01:53:46.160 I just, you know, and then of course, the second time I actually understood what he meant.

01:53:50.760 Right.

01:53:51.160 Has anyone else ever said that to you? Has anyone ever?

01:53:53.540 Oh, all the time. All the time. That's a, Jim wrote that line. I think it was Jim. I don't

01:54:00.260 think it was Scott, but I think it was, I'm pretty sure it was Jim. I, when I read that,

01:54:04.780 I was just like, I thought the same thing because the ultimate, when I first read it, I thought,

01:54:11.520 oh, the person who's immortal, effectively immortal and yet unhappy with life. Like

01:54:21.740 this must speak to you as someone who deals with longevity. What's the point of being around

01:54:27.660 forever? If you've got so much pain, a lack of understanding where it comes from, this is what

01:54:33.880 it feels like. In the whole movie, you get a feeling of someone who almost wants it to come.

01:54:38.360 Like, please take me out of my misery. Please, please, please. But then it wasn't until we

01:54:43.840 were doing it and playing the same. Oh no, it was before that. When we talked about it,

01:54:48.280 I realized there's such a dual meaning to this and people are going to take it in different

01:54:52.160 ways. Again, that's what Jim Mangold always says to me. He goes, in a movie, don't tell

01:54:58.200 me one plus one equals two. That's science. Tell me in one, in science, I want to know one

01:55:03.460 plus one equals two, but in art, tell me one plus one equals three and then spend the movie

01:55:07.480 proving it to me. It's like, make me go, and an end line like that is just such a great

01:55:13.880 example of one plus one equals three. It can work on both things. I think Aaron Oski knows

01:55:19.380 that fully. That was a great birthday party, by the way, wasn't it? Aaron's birthday.

01:55:24.780 I think it's literally the best birthday party I've ever been to in my life.

01:55:28.480 I'm with you. Can I ask you something? I feel weird. I do want to ask you this. It's more

01:55:35.500 trivial than some of the subjects we've been talking about. But when I was training for

01:55:39.320 Wolverine, at one point, my trainer said, hey, we need to mix it up. I'm going to bring

01:55:43.360 in this guy, Scott, who's a professional bodybuilder and natural, but natural bodybuilder. And we're

01:55:51.260 just going to train with him for a week and we might just pick up some tips. So training with

01:55:55.700 him at the gym, this was when I did, actually it was X-Men Origins. I was in Sydney. Someone

01:56:02.860 comes up to him every 10 minutes at the gym and wants advice, right? And no matter what

01:56:10.060 he's doing, and I never forget the first, like he was on the lap, pulled down and he's

01:56:15.640 doing it. By the way, a great thing I learned from him that I've used to this day, I assume

01:56:20.180 to be in his shape. You have to just smash it. He starts super light on everything.

01:56:27.180 Like it's, oh, fun. And builds up. He doesn't do one warm-up set, then three smashing it.

01:56:32.180 Light light. So by the time you're doing your third, fourth set, you want it. You actually

01:56:38.080 really want to lift. Your body's got used to it. It was such a great tip. Go light. Like

01:56:42.840 it shouldn't feel like a chore all the time. Like, oh yeah, I can do this. Pull this easy.

01:56:46.840 A little more, no problem. And then you just want to go in and rip it. So he's on the lap,

01:56:51.840 pull down and he could feel someone walking up, about to ask him, hey dude, how do I get

01:56:58.840 into shape? Right? His whole life, that's what he is. And without turning, he goes, don't

01:57:03.840 eat carbs after three in the afternoon. The guy goes, oh, he didn't even ask his question.

01:57:09.840 He walked away. I said, dude, how often do you guys literally in times of work? Someone

01:57:15.840 was going to ask me that. So you in your job as a longevity doctor must get asked every

01:57:23.840 five seconds. What's the one thing you, what's the thing you say on the lap pull down to that

01:57:28.840 is the most important thing to change your life? Oh, no, he said one more thing. He goes,

01:57:32.840 don't eat carbs after three. You'll lose three to five kilos in the first month. That was it.

01:57:37.840 Oh gosh.

01:57:42.840 What's your, what's your one thing?

01:57:44.840 I think there are glib answers to that question. And I think there are serious answers to that

01:57:48.840 question. I think, and by glib, I just mean universal, right? So what's the universal truth

01:57:54.840 in longevity? Gosh, if you're willing to exercise nearly every day, like you're going to end up in a

01:58:00.840 good place. Exercise is a very potent gyro protective agent, right? That's a very non sexy 0.80

01:58:09.840 way to describe exercise, but it's, it's potent, right? So it's, it's, it really has a strong impact.

01:58:15.840 It's diffuse. It acts in many different parts of the body and it's very gyro protective, right? It 1.00

01:58:22.840 really slows down aging. And, you know, if you want evidence of this, just examine the opposite.

01:58:29.840 Just look at what happens to people when they are sedentary. You know, you look at someone who,

01:58:34.840 especially someone who's, you know, our age, who gets laid up in a hospital bed for a week,

01:58:41.840 and you look at how far it sets them back. If you're laid up for a week in the hospital,

01:58:47.840 it could take you six months to recover from that physically. So, so you very quickly understand

01:58:53.240 the potence of exercise. And, and so I would just say, don't underestimate the power of exercise,

01:58:59.080 which of course then gets into all the technicalities. Well, how much of it should be

01:59:02.560 zone two? How much of it should be zone five? How much strength, how much stability? And of course the

01:59:07.040 devil's in the details there. And then I think the other thing I would say is something we've been

01:59:11.340 talking about all along, which is don't underestimate the power of relationships,

01:59:16.340 because ultimately they are probably going to play a greater role in the quality of your life

01:59:21.640 than the length of your life. But that matters more. I think the definition of hell would be

01:59:27.760 infinite length and misery. So what can we do to offset that? I love that you said that about

01:59:34.300 relationships. My best mate started a charity, Gus. He started a charity based on a doco he did on male

01:59:40.960 suicide. And it was incredibly successful, but his idea in this charity, it's called Gotcha

01:59:47.960 for Life, but the number four, but it's Gotcha for Life is the idea that never worry alone. Like, make sure

01:59:54.560 that you have someone and hopefully more than one where you can say anything, everything. And he goes,

02:00:03.920 and by the way, like I have that in my marriage. You have that in your marriage.

02:00:06.920 A lot of people don't, but that's not the sort of contract they have. But as long as you've got

02:00:12.140 someone, a mate that you can, that actually that loneliness and the inability to unload stuff,

02:00:18.920 you need to unload, we as humans need to unload it. I think that's really vital from my medical

02:00:25.740 standpoint.

02:00:26.580 No, I look, this is an example of things that things where my thinking has evolved so much,

02:00:35.380 right? I think that 10 years ago when I thought about this, I just didn't find this to be this

02:00:44.060 meaning the sort of emotional side of this to be a particularly relevant piece of the puzzle.

02:00:49.520 And I've evolved, obviously, as you know, to the complete opposite end of that spectrum.

02:00:53.800 And now, you know, it's one of those things that's often the case. Once you get to the other

02:00:57.920 island, you look back and you think, what was I thinking on that other island? You know, because

02:01:03.200 you just, you can't appreciate what you didn't know at the time. And I think that there's something

02:01:10.460 about giving to someone else and sacrificing that I think David Foster Wallace spoke about so eloquently

02:01:18.620 in his commencement address, yeah, this is water. And the way he talks about the myriad petty ways in

02:01:25.500 which we can sacrifice for other people. And that's a big part of what it's about. And I think

02:01:31.360 that any parent recognizes that, that on some days it can be really tough to be a parent, but

02:01:36.460 you're making these sacrifices for your kids. It's not always fun to be a parent, right? It's not

02:01:43.320 always fun to be married. It's not always fun to do all of these things. But I think somehow finding

02:01:50.000 the beauty in those difficult moments, you know, when your kid's having a meltdown or when your spouse

02:01:57.400 is really pissed at you and you think it's unjustified, but you bite your tongue, like there

02:02:02.820 is value in that. And I think there is joy in that.

02:02:05.880 Yeah. My brother, my oldest brother, Ian, when my, he's had four kids when my, when Oscar

02:02:12.860 was born, he rang me and he said, Hey man, everyone's going to tell you this is the greatest

02:02:20.500 thing to ever happen. Spend your life. You're going to be amazing. And it's the best time

02:02:23.760 of your life. And he goes, here's the truth. Some of that is true, but it's also, you're

02:02:27.740 going to be so tired and angry and frustrated. And a lot of it's going to be really annoying

02:02:33.420 at times and it's going to be inconvenient. He goes, it's okay, man. When those moments

02:02:37.880 happen, just give me a call. Like it's okay. It was so relieving because of course you get

02:02:43.220 three hours sleep a night, four hours sleep a night, you're going to be shitty, you know,

02:02:47.000 at times. And of course it is great too, but parenting is, I tell you, I've learned some,

02:02:53.340 it, the mirror gets, you know, shone up to you about, of who you are so quickly as a parent,

02:03:00.140 very nakedly. So how do you handle aging in your field, right? You're, you're, you're in a field

02:03:09.900 where you are forever going to be judged by your appearance. I think the field is harsher on your

02:03:17.380 female counterparts than you. For sure. For sure. But nevertheless, how do you think about this process

02:03:23.840 and how do you balance? Because, you know, you're becoming better and better in your craft and you're

02:03:28.820 getting older. And at some point, I mean, there, you know, there's, there's the Clint Eastwoods of

02:03:33.400 the world where, I mean, they just seem to never be able, they, they seem to transition into that age.

02:03:41.400 Like as they go. Totally. I embrace it. Like I embrace it. Certainly 95%. You know, sometimes you go,

02:03:50.700 wow. Or you'll see a photo of it, you know, where you looked and you go, wow, those bags, wow. Like

02:03:55.820 you look like shit and all that. But in general, I embrace it. He'll kill me for saying this, but 1.00

02:04:01.200 the guy who did my skin cancer, my basal cell, I had a bunch down on my nose. So every time I go in

02:04:07.820 over the years to do something on my nose and they're doing corrective surgeries, like, you know,

02:04:12.980 I could just do a little, there's bag, it's easy. I could just fix that or we could do that. I'm like,

02:04:17.160 no, I did. And, or, or there's, he goes, I could take some fat from somewhere and I can pump it into,

02:04:25.100 into here. And then you won't get that scar, that divot. Cause when you look from the side

02:04:29.340 and I said, nah, and he goes, are you really going to do it? And I said, no, I don't. He goes,

02:04:34.760 it's my walk. And I said, it's my nose. Like, I don't have that. I, I kind of have that feeling

02:04:41.420 of embracing it. And I actually enjoy it. If I'm really honest, part of that. I want to stay

02:04:50.980 a movie star. I've got to do that. I've got to be, is exhausting to me. It feels pointless to me

02:04:57.900 and I'm happy not to embrace it. You know what I mean? It's like, I've never really loved that side

02:05:05.140 of it. And it's exhausting, relieving. We are about one minute away from, I know we have a hard

02:05:13.600 stop. Cause you have an appointment, don't you? I have a singing lesson, man. Yeah. And I,

02:05:17.740 trust me, I could talk for hours with you. My singing teacher, Liz Kaplan, she's so good.

02:05:23.420 She's impossible to get like, it's almost as hard as getting a medical appointment. 1.00

02:05:27.760 We, we are not going to let this podcast get in the way of what needs to be done.

02:05:32.960 Am I seeing a lesson? Uh, yeah, absolutely not. So anyway, so my, just let me finish that

02:05:38.360 Clint Eastwood, but my real North star, I look to is Newman, Paul Newman.

02:05:44.400 Can you see the picture of him on my wall? Can you see the picture of Paul Newman back there?

02:05:48.820 I can't, I can, no, the angle, I can't see it.

02:05:51.100 So I've got, I've got, yes, I've got Richard Feynman, Ayrton Senna, Paul Newman.

02:05:54.800 Wow. That'd be a great taste right there. Like everything, the way he did his career,

02:06:00.500 the Newman's own, the way he just kept his passions going. And he did a lot for the actors

02:06:05.600 union behind the scenes. He did a lot on nuclear disarmament behind the scenes. Like,

02:06:09.660 yeah, that's, that's the way you do it. Did you ever get to meet him?

02:06:13.240 Once. And it was awesome. I was, it was awesome. He was, he was fading at the time,

02:06:17.540 super skinny and clearly not well, but yeah, he's my hero. So.

02:06:21.660 Well, you're a hero to many and you've, and you've played many heroes.

02:06:28.020 I thank you so much for your openness. It's a hard thing for an actor to do.

02:06:31.960 Right.

02:06:32.480 Cause you have this contract with us that says, as long as we don't know you,

02:06:36.300 we can believe you.

02:06:37.680 Right. It's true. Is that, but, but as you can tell from me, I'm, I want to answer the

02:06:43.140 questions. That's why I'm doing it. So you're right. It's, it's a bit of a tightrope, but

02:06:46.720 you helped me walk out better than the better than almost anyone else. And I, you know, I listen

02:06:51.820 with friends, but I also listened to your podcast and I think what you're doing is really helping.

02:06:57.380 It's helped me a lot.

02:06:58.380 Well, thank you for that.

02:06:59.760 I love you, man. Give my love to the kids. Give my love to Jill.

02:07:04.120 Thanks to the two Nicks behind the scenes. They're doing all the work.

02:07:07.640 I love you too. And please give my best to Deb and the kids and look forward to seeing you in

02:07:12.160 person. Hopefully in the next three months. Awesome, man. All right. See ya.

02:07:17.380 You're the best.

02:07:18.340 Thank you for listening to this week's episode of the drive. If you're interested in diving deeper

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The Peter Attia Drive - July 12, 2021

#168 - Hugh Jackman： Reflections on acting, identity, personal transformation, and the significance of being Wolverine

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