The Peter Attia Drive - #178 - Lance Armstrong： The rise, fall, and growth of a cycling legend

00:00:00.000 Hey, everyone. Welcome to the drive podcast. I'm your host, Peter Atiyah. This podcast,

00:00:15.480 my website, and my weekly newsletter all focus on the goal of translating the science of longevity

00:00:19.800 into something accessible for everyone. Our goal is to provide the best content in health

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00:00:28.880 If you enjoy this podcast, we've created a membership program that brings you far more

00:00:33.280 in-depth content. If you want to take your knowledge of the space to the next level at

00:00:37.320 the end of this episode, I'll explain what those benefits are. Or if you want to learn more now,

00:00:41.720 head over to peteratiyahmd.com forward slash subscribe. Now, without further delay,

00:00:47.740 here's today's episode. My guest this week is Lance Armstrong. This episode, we cover Lance's

00:00:55.340 story from his humble beginnings in Plano, Texas, to his meteoric rise, to being arguably one of the

00:01:02.400 most famous athletes in the world at the height of his career. Of course, this is all eclipsed by

00:01:08.300 his equally accelerated fall from grace and the scandal that ensued. In this episode, we go through

00:01:16.020 all aspects of this in detail, including his cancer diagnosis and how that changed his life and all of

00:01:23.160 the things that ultimately were a part of his sport and the era that he competed in.

00:01:29.180 I realize that many people listening to this might think they have their mind made up about Lance,

00:01:33.340 and that's understandable. But I do suggest that it might be worth spending the time to listen to

00:01:38.920 this episode, even if you feel like you have your mind made up about Lance. There are really a number

00:01:43.920 of issues here, including the use of performance enhancing drugs during his time in the Tour de

00:01:50.200 France. And then, of course, there's the lessons that Lance learned as an individual and what he

00:01:57.140 learned about himself and how he treated other people during that time of his life and how he's

00:02:04.140 emerged on the other end of that. So in some ways, it's a story about a redemption, a rise, a fall,

00:02:10.100 and a rise again. So without further delay, please enjoy this episode with Lance Armstrong.

00:02:21.900 All right, Lance, thank you for making time today to swing by.

00:02:25.100 Absolutely.

00:02:25.780 How does it feel to be back in Austin?

00:02:27.480 It's pretty surreal. Having been here or having lived here for 30 years, I've seen the city change

00:02:34.620 and I saw it change as a cyclist. So I think cyclists see more stuff than most people. And

00:02:41.480 you're always covering ground, you're finding back roads, you get a sense for a town growing.

00:02:49.000 Obviously, the roads get more crowded, but you see more construction trucks and you're like,

00:02:52.200 wait, this place is getting built out. And then if you go down the rabbit hole of hearing these offers

00:02:57.620 in the real estate market, it's just, this is a different city. Still a great city though.

00:03:03.940 The only thing my wife and I could say after moving here is what took us so long.

00:03:07.200 Before we get into kind of the details of all the stuff I want to talk about,

00:03:10.440 I think it's just sometimes easier if we can get into some hard yes and no questions,

00:03:14.640 just so that there's no ambiguity about some of the really important stuff.

00:03:18.300 Okay. I've been here before.

00:03:20.560 I think this is going to be familiar to you, but I want you to really limit yourself to a yes or no

00:03:24.740 only, Lance. These are important questions. Is Dura-Ace better than Campy Super Record?

00:03:30.240 Yes.

00:03:30.500 Is the greatest innovation in time trialing the aerodynamic water bottle?

00:03:36.120 No.

00:03:36.960 Is Edgar Allan Poe the greatest poet of the 19th century?

00:03:42.040 Sure.

00:03:43.000 Are today's clinchers as high performing as tubulars?

00:03:46.860 Yes.

00:03:47.860 Is Alberto Contador the greatest cyclist of all time?

00:03:51.620 Absolutely not.

00:03:52.900 Can you still ride up Alpe d'Huez in under 45 minutes?

00:03:57.720 Probably not.

00:03:59.020 Is the 1985 Oakley Pilot big-ass sunglass the greatest shades of all time?

00:04:07.660 No, but...

00:04:09.220 Just yes or no?

00:04:10.460 No.

00:04:11.640 Is Pinarello the best bike on the market?

00:04:13.760 No.

00:04:15.640 Is George Hincapie the best lieutenant you've ever had?

00:04:18.500 Absolutely.

00:04:19.820 Was your grandfather the first man to ride his bike on the moon in 1969?

00:04:24.740 No.

00:04:25.180 All right.

00:04:26.520 Now that we've got that out of the way, talk to me about Plano.

00:04:30.400 North, east suburb of Dallas?

00:04:32.920 Pretty much straight north.

00:04:34.400 It lives up to its name.

00:04:36.540 Plano is Spanish for flat, Plano.

00:04:39.000 Very flat, very windy.

00:04:42.080 Another community like Austin that's drastically changed.

00:04:45.720 When I was a kid growing up in Plano, leave the house and be out in the fields and I would head up into Allen and go around Lake LaVaughn or I would out to Frisco.

00:04:54.940 I mean, now Frisco is one of the fastest growing communities in America.

00:04:58.440 There was only one building out there and that was the global headquarters for EDS.

00:05:04.260 People thought Ross Perot was nuts to build the EDS headquarters there.

00:05:08.520 And now it's, you know, mom's still there, so just going back is crazy.

00:05:13.920 A lot of times I'll always take my bike everywhere, but I'll just kind of ride around and go past Dooley Elementary where I went to middle school.

00:05:21.500 And I'll go to, sorry, elementary school and middle school was Armstrong.

00:05:24.500 I'll just go by these places and just look at them through a 50-year-old's eyes.

00:05:29.040 Is it bittersweet, by the way, because like I hate seeing where I grew up.

00:05:32.860 I hate it with a passion.

00:05:34.020 The last time I went back to look at my elementary school, I mean, it just upset me so much.

00:05:39.180 No, no, no, no.

00:05:40.360 I mean, I think most people have some level of that in their lives.

00:05:44.620 You're allowed to sort of hate where you grew up, I think.

00:05:47.780 I don't want to live there, but it's fine to go back, see mom.

00:05:51.760 Your birth father is Eddie Gunderson, right?

00:05:54.720 He left you guys when you were two.

00:05:57.060 Did you ever see him again after that?

00:05:59.940 Never saw him again.

00:06:01.300 Did you ever want to?

00:06:02.920 Well, he's now passed away.

00:06:03.920 Yeah, he passed away in 2012 if I'm...

00:06:06.480 No, maybe around there.

00:06:09.960 And from what I hear, he died of a spider bite.

00:06:12.800 Maybe that led to some other complications.

00:06:14.620 But I never had a desire to sort of reconnect with him for most of my life.

00:06:20.280 And even, of course, now it would be too late.

00:06:22.020 But I might have a different view of that now.

00:06:25.880 Did he ever reach out to you?

00:06:28.700 Not directly.

00:06:29.880 After the first tour win in 99, people reached out to him.

00:06:34.320 So a lot of the press and journalists, they wanted this story.

00:06:37.740 I mean, his interviews were just totally inappropriate.

00:06:40.880 You know, the comments about my mom that far down the road.

00:06:45.100 Meaning he had disparaging things to say about your mom or...

00:06:47.860 Yeah, yeah.

00:06:49.440 I don't think Eddie was a Rhodes Scholar.

00:06:52.400 How old were you when she met and or married Terry Armstrong?

00:06:57.400 So I would have been three or four.

00:07:01.780 Okay.

00:07:02.200 Yeah.

00:07:02.920 Right.

00:07:03.420 And so that's where the name comes from, right?

00:07:06.760 I wasn't born Lance Armstrong.

00:07:09.300 Funny thing is my initials would have been Leg if I would have stayed Lance Edward Gunderson.

00:07:14.840 But yeah, she became obviously Linda Armstrong and I became Lance Armstrong.

00:07:19.840 You've told me stories in the past.

00:07:22.080 And I know you've spoken a bit publicly about Terry and kind of how strict he was.

00:07:26.500 And did you ever think of him as a father?

00:07:29.080 Did he feel that way to you in any way, shape or form?

00:07:30.980 Oh, sure.

00:07:31.760 You know, as a five, six, seven-year-old kid, you don't know.

00:07:35.140 You have your mother.

00:07:36.080 And I knew he wasn't my biological father, but we had a roof over our heads and my mom

00:07:41.600 seemed happy.

00:07:42.640 And yeah, at a young age.

00:07:44.740 And he wasn't, when you say violent, I mean, he was just strict.

00:07:48.220 I mean, it was every little thing got you in trouble.

00:07:50.480 And if I look at my kids' lives and they leave their drawer open, I walk by and I'm like,

00:07:56.420 first of all, I don't care if they leave their drawer open.

00:07:58.680 That would have been a big deal to him.

00:08:00.800 I know you've told the story before about, hey, you know, playing every Texas sport every

00:08:04.440 kid does, you didn't shine in any of those things.

00:08:06.460 And you're 12 years old, mom throws you into swimming, which you didn't really know how

00:08:10.180 to do, but you obviously picked it up super fast, huh?

00:08:13.340 You're right.

00:08:13.840 I didn't know how to swim.

00:08:14.980 And she didn't necessarily suggest swimming.

00:08:18.460 She knew that she had a high energy kid that if that wasn't applied somewhere, directed 0.86

00:08:23.880 somewhere, it was going to go somewhere toxic.

00:08:27.520 And so she was right about that.

00:08:29.540 But, and I sucked at sort of mainstream sports. 0.61

00:08:32.420 I've had an issue with balls my whole life.

00:08:35.160 Although you didn't have an issue with your phone a second ago, that phone came falling

00:08:38.920 out and you, that was one of the most impressive one-handed catches I've seen in a long time.

00:08:42.440 That was a good catch.

00:08:42.920 That was, yeah.

00:08:44.580 But I had a few friends on the swim team.

00:08:46.900 So I thought, well, I'll try that.

00:08:49.560 Problem is I was 12, they were all 12.

00:08:52.180 And was this an age group team?

00:08:53.280 This was an age group team.

00:08:54.380 So very different, you know enough about swimming to be dangerous.

00:08:57.640 And so it's, there's different categories, so to speak, right?

00:09:01.760 The most serious is age group swimming.

00:09:04.240 That's where Michael Phelps grew up swimming.

00:09:06.060 That's where everybody grew up swimming.

00:09:07.420 Then you have sort of country club setups where it's a summer league and you swim some laps

00:09:12.620 and you have some meets and all the parents are there.

00:09:15.200 And then you have kind of high school, right?

00:09:17.240 Which most of the time, at least for us, age group was the serious training for high school

00:09:21.840 swimming.

00:09:22.640 But yeah, I was 12 and I didn't know how to swim.

00:09:24.960 So I certainly didn't know how to swim.

00:09:27.720 I mean, I could have faked freestyle, but I couldn't have, I didn't know any strokes.

00:09:31.880 You know, I showed up and man, the coach, they watch you for a while.

00:09:35.000 And they, I mean, they stuck me in the six-year-old lane, six, seven-year-old lane.

00:09:39.840 When I think back and I never even questioned it, I just stayed.

00:09:43.320 I stayed swimming with these little, little kids.

00:09:46.420 Meanwhile, all my buddies are over at the other end of the pool doing 3,100s on whatever.

00:09:51.020 And I'm like, but I just hung in there and I swam the kids.

00:09:54.360 And then after a month of that, then I moved over a lane and I was with the eight-year-olds.

00:09:58.920 And then a month later, I was, I just kind of kept going across the pool until probably

00:10:03.700 less than a year later.

00:10:05.100 I was, I was a legit swimmer.

00:10:07.300 Still one of my great loves.

00:10:08.880 So by the time you get into high school, you're swimming both for the high school team and

00:10:12.800 the age group.

00:10:13.860 Yes and no, because I turned pro in triathlon when I was 15.

00:10:16.860 And my swim coach at the time, who was just a total hard ass, but an amazing coach and

00:10:22.160 Chris McCurdy, wonderful coach, one of the best coaches I've ever had, but man, he was 0.95

00:10:26.220 tough.

00:10:27.160 You did not miss a workout.

00:10:28.560 You didn't skip a workout.

00:10:29.740 There were no excuses.

00:10:30.700 I mean, holidays, family, it doesn't matter.

00:10:33.400 Our age group team was COPS, City of Plano Swimmers, which was at the time, one of the

00:10:37.380 best age group teams in the country.

00:10:38.700 And that was because McCurdy and, you know, I started traveling to triathlons and skipping

00:10:44.860 workouts because I was on a ride or a run.

00:10:47.000 And he was just, he wasn't having it at all.

00:10:50.120 So you gravitated to the mile in swimming, right?

00:10:52.940 Well, I mean, I'm an endurance guy other than catching that phone.

00:10:56.860 I don't have great fast twitch muscle.

00:10:58.720 My hundred free miles, 16 and a half of those.

00:11:02.740 What was your best mile?

00:11:04.560 I'd have to go back and look.

00:11:06.580 State championships one year, I got third.

00:11:09.460 It was decent.

00:11:10.700 I wasn't going to the Olympics.

00:11:12.480 Do you think if you'd stayed with swimming and that was the only thing you pursued, you

00:11:15.360 would have at least, you know, you would have swum in college, presumably.

00:11:17.940 I would have swam in college.

00:11:19.120 And if you ask McCurdy, he thinks I could have gone far, but I just, there was prize money.

00:11:25.520 There was travel.

00:11:26.440 I was like, hey, this is way cooler.

00:11:28.860 When did you realize you also had a knack to run and bike?

00:11:32.020 I actually was running right around the same time.

00:11:34.360 So at the same time I was swimming, I was running track and cross country in high school.

00:11:37.740 Plano, I was city champ and the, wouldn't have been the, I was young enough that we ran

00:11:42.500 the 1200.

00:11:43.720 City champ and that, back then the timing was primitive.

00:11:47.500 You had these timers per athlete and you had stopwatches and you would come across the line,

00:11:52.920 it's a funny story.

00:11:53.420 And they'd ask you your name.

00:11:57.380 And so I came across the line and the timer says, what's your name?

00:12:00.060 And I was going to Armstrong middle school.

00:12:02.220 And I said, Armstrong.

00:12:03.980 And he said, I didn't ask you what school you went to.

00:12:06.960 I said, what's your name?

00:12:07.700 And I said, I finally, I was like, after three or four go rounds, I was like, I'm Armstrong

00:12:12.180 from Armstrong, but it was a decent runner.

00:12:15.580 How much did you enjoy training at that age?

00:12:17.920 I loved it.

00:12:18.440 I mean, the most structured thing I had was swimming.

00:12:21.640 I mean, McCurdy was, I mean, you should have seen the board.

00:12:24.500 I mean, this dude, I don't know.

00:12:26.160 He must've laid awake every night and dreamed up these workouts.

00:12:30.840 It was so detailed.

00:12:33.020 I loved that.

00:12:34.540 And that was the most structure I had running.

00:12:36.520 I would train a little with the cross country team that had structure.

00:12:39.440 Uh, we had another great coach and track and cross country named James Mays.

00:12:44.640 So James Mays was a world-class 800 meter runner.

00:12:48.240 He was actually the rabbit for the dream mile.

00:12:50.680 And this guy ended up being our high school track and cross country coach.

00:12:53.980 And he was awesome. 0.99

00:12:54.820 He'd run with us and he like drove a Porsche and we're like, holy shit. 0.98

00:12:58.480 Our teacher, who is this dude? 0.97

00:13:00.720 He was awesome.

00:13:02.180 And then cycling was more, yeah, I just go pedal around.

00:13:06.040 No structure.

00:13:07.400 Group rides.

00:13:07.880 When did it become clear to you that you had a knack for this at the level of, I mean,

00:13:14.100 was it that one race that everybody talks about where you were right at the front with

00:13:17.920 Mark Allen and you're 15 years old.

00:13:19.680 And at the time, Mark Allen must've been one of the top three professional triathletes in

00:13:23.900 the world.

00:13:24.620 Well, that was my first pro race.

00:13:26.400 That was the president's triathlon in Dallas.

00:13:29.520 That was 80.

00:13:31.040 That would have been 87, 87.

00:13:33.840 Cause I did the presidents in 86, which was out at Lake Le Bon.

00:13:37.160 It was a longer format or longer distance.

00:13:40.740 And then they moved it over to Las Colinas where the old Cowboys facility was in 87.

00:13:46.300 And they made it an Olympic distance.

00:13:48.420 I was training with some guys and they said, well, you should just turn pro and go try it. 0.99

00:13:53.000 I was 15 years old, but I was swimming my ass. 0.97

00:13:56.460 I mean, I was a great swimmer. 0.97

00:13:57.440 So I came out, I knew I was going to come out of the water with the leaders.

00:14:00.600 So this is Olympic distance.

00:14:01.820 So you're coming out of the water under 20 minutes.

00:14:03.700 Oh, easy.

00:14:04.400 Yeah.

00:14:04.660 Yeah.

00:14:05.000 And then you hop on the bike up on the bike.

00:14:06.860 You're going under an hour.

00:14:07.840 You're going what?

00:14:08.580 55.

00:14:09.180 Yep.

00:14:09.460 Well, this is a, well, this is pre arrow bars.

00:14:12.380 Although actually that might've been the year Andrew McNaughton flew away on the bike.

00:14:16.960 He had the bars, the original Scott arrow bars.

00:14:20.820 And then I rode with Alan the whole time on the bike.

00:14:24.840 And I'm sure he was, you know, those, they all race each other every weekend.

00:14:28.560 They know.

00:14:29.260 Was Dave Scott there too?

00:14:31.100 I don't know if Dave was there.

00:14:32.640 Mike pig would have been there. 0.96

00:14:34.020 Pig might've been there. 1.00

00:14:35.140 I rode with Alan, but I'm sure he's looking at me going, who the fuck is this person? 1.00

00:14:40.740 This guy, this kid, guy like Mark Allen, get off and run 32. 0.98

00:14:45.380 And you would run what?

00:14:46.580 A 36 after that?

00:14:47.980 No, no, probably more, right?

00:14:49.520 38 or 39.

00:14:50.960 I think I ended up fifth or six and I was like, okay, I can do this.

00:14:56.740 Was the bike different compared to swimming and running for you?

00:14:59.600 Like, was there a gear that you felt you had there that you didn't have in the other two?

00:15:02.780 I don't know about a gear, but it was, the experience was certainly different.

00:15:07.040 How so?

00:15:08.020 I mean, I know it is, but what did you feel that was different?

00:15:10.340 Well, it's just like I said at the top being outside.

00:15:14.200 I mean, think about the life of a full-time, essentially professional swimmer.

00:15:18.280 I don't think people really appreciate how much time swimmers devote to their sport and

00:15:24.900 how much distance they cover.

00:15:26.660 I mean, when we were 13, 14, 15, we were swimming, you know, there'd be days we'd swim 10

00:15:32.500 miles a day. 0.99

00:15:33.640 Like if somebody said they run 10 miles a day, I would say, you're a fucking badass. 0.99

00:15:38.340 Swimming, that's two a day. 0.99

00:15:39.540 So 5.30 a.m.

00:15:40.800 morning practice for an hour and two hours in the afternoon, you're covering some ground

00:15:45.760 and you're staring at a black line the whole time.

00:15:48.200 That's why swimmers are crazy.

00:15:49.720 Well, and the funny thing is most people don't appreciate that the swim to run ratio is about

00:15:54.440 four to one.

00:15:55.660 So when you say somebody swims 10 miles a day, that's comparable metabolically to running

00:16:02.000 40 miles a day.

00:16:03.200 There's no impact.

00:16:04.360 Yeah.

00:16:04.600 Without the impact.

00:16:05.120 Which is what makes it a great sport.

00:16:06.700 As you get to be my age or even older.

00:16:09.620 I mean, the thing I love about swimming is you can swim your whole life.

00:16:13.140 You can't necessarily ride your whole life.

00:16:15.040 You certainly can't run your whole life.

00:16:16.720 Like swimming, if you put a gun to my head and said, okay, dude, you got one sport to choose

00:16:20.800 for the rest of your life.

00:16:22.300 There is no question it would be swimming.

00:16:24.740 No question.

00:16:25.740 So I've heard you say in a previous interview that triathlons were awesome, but at some point

00:16:31.780 you got this desire to go to the Olympics.

00:16:33.500 What kid doesn't want to go to the Olympics?

00:16:35.360 Yeah.

00:16:35.800 Well, at some point you realize, look, my quickest path there is probably going to be

00:16:38.720 on the bike.

00:16:39.680 And I'm guessing that was the late eighties.

00:16:41.500 You kind of had that realization.

00:16:43.820 I started to transition to full-time cycling in 89, still doing tri.

00:16:49.660 So I did them also in 89 and 90.

00:16:51.960 Went to the junior world championships in Moscow in 1989.

00:16:56.000 In my mind, I just assumed triathlon would be an Olympic sport.

00:16:59.020 It is the ultimate.

00:17:00.280 The best sports in the Olympics are swimming and cycling and running.

00:17:03.820 Like, why wouldn't we combine them and make this an Olympic sport?

00:17:07.160 Well, this is in the late eighties, early nineties.

00:17:09.820 Right.

00:17:09.920 It wouldn't be till 2000, right?

00:17:11.380 2000 in Sydney was the first time.

00:17:13.300 Nobody knew that.

00:17:14.060 But yeah, so I switched over basically full-time in 1991, 1990 or 91.

00:17:20.600 Which is kind of amazing to now fast forward to 93.

00:17:24.980 What expectations did you have going into Oslo, into that road race for the world championship?

00:17:29.660 The one thing that did happen is I went to the Olympics.

00:17:33.280 I fulfilled that dream going to the Barcelona games.

00:17:36.740 You did road race or time trial?

00:17:38.080 What did you do?

00:17:38.800 They didn't have the time trial back then.

00:17:40.200 And I want to say, I think we had team time trial.

00:17:43.260 I did the road race.

00:17:44.200 I don't think I did the TTT.

00:17:45.900 How many cyclists went for the U.S.?

00:17:47.980 Boy, you're making me think a lot.

00:17:49.720 I mean, this is a long time ago, Peter.

00:17:51.380 This is 30 years ago.

00:17:52.920 So I don't know, three or four.

00:17:56.520 But this was back in the day when you didn't have pros there, right?

00:17:59.680 No pros.

00:18:00.860 Yeah.

00:18:01.180 They added the pros in 96.

00:18:03.180 So who were the best amateurs then?

00:18:04.460 Bobby Julik, you?

00:18:06.140 Yeah.

00:18:06.580 And then, you know, the international guy, the Italians were amazing.

00:18:10.940 Casertelli, who we lost in 95.

00:18:13.840 He won.

00:18:14.420 He won the Olympic Games.

00:18:15.860 David Rebellin was on the Italian team.

00:18:18.240 But, you know, a lot of, you know, Eric Decker was on the Dutch team.

00:18:21.100 Zabel was on the German team.

00:18:22.880 So what was that like there competing against the best amateur cyclists in the world?

00:18:27.880 I mean, it was great.

00:18:29.100 Tactically?

00:18:30.100 Tactically, I was still trying to figure out cycling.

00:18:32.160 I didn't know how to move through the peloton and gauge and judge the peloton and the tactics

00:18:38.360 and the flow of the race.

00:18:40.140 That's very hard for people who watch cycling to understand.

00:18:44.740 You take it for granted now.

00:18:45.820 Yeah.

00:18:46.040 Now you could throw me in any bike race and I could absolutely find my way around.

00:18:50.440 Nobody's born with that skill, right?

00:18:52.160 I'm sure there are some people who'd have a better feel for it than others.

00:18:54.880 And they started young.

00:18:55.880 Gally George, he started, he was racing in Central Park against adult men when he was 12 years old.

00:19:00.800 Could you draft at the time in 90, 91?

00:19:03.420 All right.

00:19:03.680 So you go from a sport where bike can't-

00:19:05.500 And you should never be able to draft in a triathlon.

00:19:07.580 This pisses off all the-

00:19:09.380 Yeah, all the purists.

00:19:10.680 Well, no, all the sort of the ITU guys, the Olympic guys.

00:19:14.440 You know, I got in a bunch of grief once because I called, you know, the part of triathlon a shampoo,

00:19:19.720 a blow dry, and a 10K.

00:19:20.840 And I mean, it was, it was people were, oh.

00:19:26.560 But anyways, it's an individual sport.

00:19:28.740 But that's amazing that your cycling career as a cyclist begins two years before the Olympics

00:19:33.240 because all of the stuff you're doing as a triathlete is preparing your cardiovascular system

00:19:38.600 and your fitness, but not your bike handling skills, not your tactics, not any of those other things.

00:19:42.520 Now, the handling I had down, I rode enough that I was comfortable in the peloton,

00:19:48.360 but just understanding the movements of the race and positioning and the peloton,

00:19:55.760 it's just a big organism and you've got to be at the right place at the right time.

00:20:00.800 And yeah, it took me a few years.

00:20:03.260 What metrics were you guys looking at then?

00:20:04.620 Were you mostly just relying on heart rate?

00:20:06.700 Not even.

00:20:07.220 When I got on Motorola, we were sponsored by Polar.

00:20:10.360 And so we had some of the earliest heart rate monitors.

00:20:12.820 These things were as, I'm sure you could still find them.

00:20:15.280 I mean, they were massive.

00:20:16.980 These things were, they looked like bricks.

00:20:20.220 Legitimately component of weight.

00:20:21.460 Yeah.

00:20:21.660 And that was it.

00:20:22.440 I mean, and that was sort of the first, no power meters, no testing.

00:20:27.120 I mean, we just, yeah, he just looked at the heart rate.

00:20:29.400 So did you have any metrics or insights into your physiology being unique at the time?

00:20:34.040 I mean, did you figure out what your maximum heart rate was?

00:20:36.500 I mean, we'll get to it later, but I remember you telling me during,

00:20:39.500 I don't remember which time trial it was.

00:20:40.980 You were telling me about in one of your tours that you were able to hold a heart rate of

00:20:44.280 200 beats per minute for the entire TT.

00:20:46.800 Yeah, that was later.

00:20:47.980 I think the first time I really thought I had an engine, so to speak,

00:20:52.780 they were doing a study at the Cooper clinic in Dallas.

00:20:56.100 And of course I was living in Plano.

00:20:57.300 So I, and it was a treadmill test.

00:20:59.460 Forget what the original study was, but it's got a funny ending to the story.

00:21:03.420 It was all about core temp.

00:21:04.940 And so I went down and did a running VO2 test.

00:21:07.960 And the guy was like, Oh, I mean, it was, I killed this thing.

00:21:12.040 Do you remember what your VO2 max was?

00:21:13.540 No, no.

00:21:14.360 But the guy was like, okay, this kid's special.

00:21:17.820 And then they said, well, look, we'd like you to come back next week because we're doing

00:21:20.540 this whole core temp study.

00:21:21.840 And this time you're going to have to do it with some sort of probe in the,

00:21:24.840 exactly.

00:21:25.300 And I'm 15. 1.00

00:21:26.220 And this guy says, he's going to shove something up my ass. 1.00

00:21:29.320 And I am terrified. 0.99

00:21:31.360 I'm like, uh, I never went back.

00:21:34.960 So to this day, we have no idea what your core temperature response would have been under

00:21:38.920 that aerobic load.

00:21:40.760 Well, you want to do that test?

00:21:42.040 We can do it again.

00:21:43.360 I know enough to know that I run hot.

00:21:45.440 I'm going to leave it at that.

00:21:47.000 So Motorola was 93.

00:21:51.460 I went to Motorola in, uh, actually in 92.

00:21:55.060 I was the only amateur on the team.

00:21:56.540 Steve Bauer was on that team.

00:21:58.060 Bauer was there, Phil Anderson, Andy Hampston.

00:22:01.100 By the way, Steve Bauer is why a kid growing up in Canada, like me, was obsessed with cycling

00:22:05.360 growing up.

00:22:06.280 So I was one of like 12 people in North America that loved cycling, followed it because Bauer

00:22:11.480 won a silver in 84 at the Olympics.

00:22:13.380 So basically I'm 10, 11 years old.

00:22:15.440 That puts cycling on the map as something that's like awesome.

00:22:18.620 And then of course, Lamond was, I mean, forget about it.

00:22:21.780 Like the most exciting thing in all of sports.

00:22:23.880 1989 was the 89 comeback.

00:22:26.220 Got me hooked.

00:22:26.900 Unbelievable.

00:22:27.980 Some would argue the greatest ending to a tour.

00:22:30.880 You could argue maybe second greatest after what happened last year that let the scholars

00:22:34.860 debate that.

00:22:35.860 But I want to talk about the 93 season because you've got a guy named Miguel Enduran who's

00:22:42.080 come along and dethroned Greg, right?

00:22:43.740 And at this point, Enduran has now won three consecutive tours.

00:22:49.000 There's no sign he's going to slow down, right?

00:22:50.820 He wins 91, 92, 93.

00:22:52.700 He looks like an absolute machine.

00:22:55.100 This is one of the guys you're now racing against for the world championship in the road

00:22:59.120 race.

00:22:59.580 Yep.

00:22:59.860 What's your thought going into that race?

00:23:02.020 The way the season was structured then, and I actually much preferred it.

00:23:06.240 The world's was much earlier.

00:23:07.660 It was four or five weeks after the tours.

00:23:10.200 Before the Vuelta.

00:23:11.040 Well, no, back then the Vuelta was in early in the season.

00:23:15.100 The Vuelta was for the Giro?

00:23:16.220 Yeah.

00:23:16.580 Okay.

00:23:17.480 And the Vuelta was minimized, but we had a true world cup.

00:23:20.940 So you had all the monuments, all the big spring classics.

00:23:23.740 And then every week after the tour, we went St. Sebastian.

00:23:27.380 We went Zurich.

00:23:28.240 We went Leeds in England.

00:23:30.240 But, you know, it was like, boom, boom, boom.

00:23:31.500 So I loved the rhythm of that calendar after the tour in 93.

00:23:35.820 Which you won a stage.

00:23:36.980 I won a stage into Verdun in the national champions jersey.

00:23:40.960 They pulled me out because I was young.

00:23:43.260 My form just kept coming up and up and up.

00:23:46.440 And in all the world cups, I was right there.

00:23:49.100 All the prep races.

00:23:49.960 I knew I was going to be in the front group. 1.00

00:23:52.600 And I was, shit, I didn't care. 0.99

00:23:53.980 I mean, I was looking around in that group. 0.99

00:23:55.400 I mean, you had Olaf Ludwig.

00:23:57.520 You had Inderine. 0.82

00:23:58.220 You had Kiepucci. 0.99

00:23:59.440 You had Shmiel.

00:24:01.100 You had Miseu.

00:24:02.120 You had Reese.

00:24:03.260 I mean, I was looking around going, yeah, of course I'm here.

00:24:07.000 And then, of course, it was absolutely pissing work.

00:24:09.960 The worst day I've ever seen.

00:24:11.820 And people crashing.

00:24:13.020 I mean, I crashed twice.

00:24:14.600 People crashing everywhere.

00:24:15.900 How cold was it?

00:24:16.880 It's funny.

00:24:17.340 I never really felt that cold.

00:24:20.080 It was cold.

00:24:20.760 It looked cold.

00:24:21.480 Yeah, yeah.

00:24:21.840 It was probably in the 50s.

00:24:23.580 I mean, Northern Europe, with weather like that, it's going to be cold.

00:24:26.940 No matter what time of year.

00:24:28.460 Explain to people what it means to win that race, to be the world champion.

00:24:32.620 You get to wear a special jersey that nobody else gets to wear for a year.

00:24:36.680 Yep.

00:24:36.840 You wear the rainbow jersey for a year.

00:24:38.500 And then for the rest of your career, you have some representation on your jerseys or

00:24:43.660 shorts, the rainbows on the sleeves, the collar.

00:24:46.840 It's a cool one to win.

00:24:48.140 Thinking back to that year in the tour, we're going to talk a lot about, obviously, performance

00:24:53.200 enhancing drugs.

00:24:54.400 You've in the past said that was in the era where you and your team were still in the low

00:25:00.040 octane phase of things, right?

00:25:01.860 The cortisones, things like that.

00:25:04.040 But it was the pre-EPO era, even though EPO was around.

00:25:07.360 It was around.

00:25:07.740 But this was before the real shootout.

00:25:10.820 What were you aware of in that year's tour?

00:25:14.140 There was buzz of EPO, but it was not dinner table conversation like it became.

00:25:20.520 There was obviously speculation, but there was scientific articles about it.

00:25:24.000 People knew that that substance, as great as it is to treat certain disorders or issues,

00:25:31.100 it could also be hugely beneficial for endurance sport.

00:25:34.340 But in 92, 93, it wasn't an obsession.

00:25:39.260 At the time, obviously, when I was just a kid following cycling, I was always surprised

00:25:42.680 in the 91 tour how quickly Greg fell off.

00:25:45.840 And years later, of course, we would all speculate.

00:25:48.060 Was that not just the passing of the torch between two great cyclists, LeMond and Indoran,

00:25:53.060 but was it also the passing of the torch of an era?

00:25:55.060 Do you believe that that was when high-octane products became the mainstay in 91?

00:26:00.820 Or do you think that, no, it would not be probably until either the end of Indoran?

00:26:05.360 Because clearly by the time Reese came along in 96, I mean, that might have been the most

00:26:09.200 overt use.

00:26:10.700 People, most that really have a deep understanding, they'll tell you that it, I mean, it was in

00:26:15.960 the Peloton in the late 80s, but that's really going far back and nobody from back then is

00:26:21.420 talking for sure.

00:26:23.560 Yeah.

00:26:23.700 Pedro Delgado, I think there were definitely rumors because he won in what?

00:26:28.000 Didn't he win the year that LeMond was out, which was 87?

00:26:31.620 You know way too much about the sport.

00:26:33.480 Yeah.

00:26:34.000 You know a lot more than me.

00:26:36.600 I peg it to the jerseys I had as a kid.

00:26:38.840 And honestly, Greg still could have, towards the end of his career, and it was well-documented.

00:26:45.040 I'm not saying this as a knock on him, but he was starting to let himself go in the off

00:26:50.760 season.

00:26:51.300 I mean, he would show up to the early season races and I mean, you could see it.

00:26:54.360 You're like, has this guy been training or not?

00:26:56.500 And Indoran was a machine.

00:26:58.620 Indoran was a beast. 1.00

00:26:59.620 I mean, this guy trained 365 days a year, so.

00:27:03.100 So it's not clear what that transition was.

00:27:05.520 Nah.

00:27:06.160 But Indoran was, he could do it all.

00:27:09.160 So I think another thing that most people don't understand about cycling or certainly

00:27:13.120 about the tour is that because of how grueling it is, which again, I can't tell you I understand

00:27:20.120 because I guess I've never done it.

00:27:21.700 But as much as somebody who's never done it, I feel like I at least have some appreciation

00:27:25.260 for it because I understand physiology.

00:27:27.180 There's nothing about it that's reasonable.

00:27:28.980 Like there's nothing about doing that that is physiologically appropriate or in any way,

00:27:34.980 shape or form promotes a person's health.

00:27:37.040 A rider at the end of the tour is probably the least healthy they could ever be.

00:27:41.400 And as a result of that, there's no era in the history of this bike race where cyclists

00:27:46.580 haven't turned to substances.

00:27:48.940 And whether they're banned or not banned is really a semantic point.

00:27:52.160 But in the earliest renditions of this race, riders were using alcohol to numb pain or traditional

00:27:57.740 painkillers, cocaine, more sophisticated amphetamines.

00:28:01.980 Or hopping on trains.

00:28:03.140 Yeah, exactly.

00:28:04.140 Grabbing cars.

00:28:05.220 Literally just getting yanked up mountains.

00:28:07.060 What was the environment like?

00:28:09.640 Not that you were there, but you overlapped with guys that were there in the 80s.

00:28:14.080 Was there an environment of testing of anything?

00:28:17.080 Like were people looking at hematocrit to see if people actually blood doped, let alone using EPO?

00:28:22.660 Were they testing for cortisone or testosterone or other hormones?

00:28:27.020 For example, in 93, when I won a stage in the tour and won the world, I was tested.

00:28:31.160 You were tested.

00:28:31.740 Okay.

00:28:32.440 Now you acknowledge that back then you were using things like cortisone.

00:28:36.220 Were you worried that those things would show up or were you just making sure that they

00:28:39.220 were out of your system by the time you were racing?

00:28:42.060 The way to go about that in the day was just a TUE.

00:28:44.320 So a therapeutic use exemption.

00:28:46.360 And a lot of these compounds come in different forms and different form factors and different

00:28:51.720 administrations.

00:28:52.720 And so you could say, well, got tendonitis in the knee.

00:28:55.440 And so the TUE was sort of the, which I think they've cut back on a lot of that.

00:28:59.180 But in competition testing for certainly for something like EPO, which has a five hour

00:29:03.880 half-life, not going to work.

00:29:06.080 They started doing the out of competition testing and the whereabouts.

00:29:10.200 But the biggest hammers that have dropped in cycling in and around drugs like that were

00:29:16.360 not through testing.

00:29:17.660 They were through the police.

00:29:18.780 Like look at Festina.

00:29:19.540 I mean, nobody tested positive in the Festina fair. 1.00

00:29:22.000 We have a dumb ass swine. 1.00

00:29:23.280 You're crossing a border, gets pulled over. 1.00

00:29:25.400 Lo and behold, a car full of stuff.

00:29:27.380 That's how that happened.

00:29:28.600 The agencies had nothing to do with that.

00:29:31.800 So coming into the 94 season, you've got to be optimistic.

00:29:34.620 You're the world champion.

00:29:35.860 Do you remember what your expectations and your goals were for that season with respect

00:29:38.920 to either single day classics or grand tours?

00:29:41.980 That was an interesting period in time though, because that is when... 1.00

00:29:45.460 You basically got your ass kicked that year. 0.99

00:29:47.320 Yeah, the gunfight. 0.99

00:29:48.040 But I want to know what you thought coming in.

00:29:50.020 I mean, I thought I'd be competitive in every one day race I started.

00:29:53.480 And did you think I'm going to be on the podium in the tour in the next three years?

00:29:56.920 No, no.

00:29:59.060 At that time, I was fully resigned or committed to the fact that I was a classic rider.

00:30:05.420 I was a one day rider.

00:30:05.980 What did you weigh at that point?

00:30:07.540 I probably weighed...

00:30:09.180 I was big.

00:30:10.340 My whole career, I was big just because as a swimmer, you never...

00:30:13.320 A swimmer never loses a swimmer's body.

00:30:15.440 The back, the chest, the shoulders.

00:30:18.800 You can lean it out, but you're going to be big.

00:30:20.680 So I was probably 175.

00:30:22.420 Yeah, which is tough to be a climber at 175.

00:30:26.920 When in the tours, I was between 160 and 165.

00:30:30.440 Still big.

00:30:31.600 Yeah, I mean, a race in Pantani was 125.

00:30:34.700 So when do you realize in 94, like something's wrong?

00:30:38.900 I think we realized that something had changed.

00:30:41.840 It was overnight.

00:30:43.660 Between 93 and 94, even though I'm sure 93 there was...

00:30:46.760 I mean, that's the great thing about a one day race is it is, in a way, a race of chance.

00:30:52.220 You can play your cards.

00:30:53.280 You can play tactics.

00:30:55.280 You obviously have to be fit enough to be in the front group.

00:30:57.320 But when I made my move in 93, I mean, that was a bit of a Hail Mary.

00:31:00.800 I went early.

00:31:01.700 I got a gap.

00:31:03.080 They were disorganized behind.

00:31:04.860 And you stay away.

00:31:06.220 So the big tours were the Race of Truth and the Time Trial or the Hardest Climbs.

00:31:10.720 Those are individual competitions.

00:31:12.880 And so there was a tectonic shift from 93 to 94.

00:31:17.280 How long did it take you to understand this is exactly what's happening?

00:31:20.000 This is not about more cortisone.

00:31:21.960 This is not about more testosterone, more growth hormone.

00:31:24.380 Yeah, it was all over the press.

00:31:25.800 I mean, in 1994, you had in Fleshful Own, you had three Gewiss riders go up the road.

00:31:31.720 And then the press went crazy after that because here you have an Italian team.

00:31:37.100 Ferrari's the trainer.

00:31:38.640 The press also back then was more beat riders.

00:31:42.520 So they were friends with the riders.

00:31:44.120 They were writers and they were friends with the riders.

00:31:46.620 They were friends with the directors.

00:31:47.780 So they were all kind of buddies and they wouldn't write about what they would hear until then.

00:31:53.420 And then they got on it.

00:31:54.560 And so people got to Ferrari and of course, the famous quote about trying to compare Ippo to orange juice.

00:32:01.100 And at least that's the way that it was printed.

00:32:04.020 But after that, yeah, it was everywhere in the press and in the Peloton.

00:32:08.720 Remind me what happened in the 94 tour for you.

00:32:10.860 94, I got sick halfway through and dropped out.

00:32:14.680 Okay.

00:32:15.000 And then in the 95 tour.

00:32:17.020 Finished.

00:32:17.720 You finished and that's a tragic tour.

00:32:20.060 So Fabio is killed.

00:32:22.400 Yep.

00:32:22.900 He was on our team.

00:32:23.960 This is the same guy that won the Olympics.

00:32:25.560 He won the Olympics in 92.

00:32:27.440 Is that a wake up call to you in any way?

00:32:28.760 Do you realize how dangerous your sport is when you watch your teammates head smashed open on the side of the road?

00:32:33.520 Yeah, that was a helmets were certainly not required and very few people wore them.

00:32:40.800 I'm not sure what it helped Fabio.

00:32:42.820 He hit really hit his face and basically died right there.

00:32:46.860 But it's just surreal.

00:32:49.120 It was a tough mountain day and we were in the gruppetto.

00:32:53.000 And I mean, we were out there forever.

00:32:54.940 And we actually got news of his death in the race.

00:32:59.000 And so it was just, that's so rare.

00:33:02.120 But to have it happen to us on our team, you know, you have breakfast with the guy, but he's not at the dinner table.

00:33:07.700 The whole story is tragic.

00:33:10.600 Young wife, new baby boy.

00:33:13.400 Fabio was interesting.

00:33:14.440 He wasn't your normal Italian. 1.00

00:33:16.440 They were all super serious, not really jokesters.

00:33:19.720 He was a jokester.

00:33:21.640 He obviously had huge talent and potential, won the Olympic gold.

00:33:25.300 He wasn't adjusting to pro cycling.

00:33:28.140 And so we picked him up in 95.

00:33:30.740 And ironically, for the ninth spot, it was down to him and George.

00:33:34.880 And George was actually there at the start because we would always take 10 guys.

00:33:38.600 And then literally the day before, the team would decide who the ninth guy was.

00:33:43.060 And they decided, George was young, but they decided to take Castortelli.

00:33:46.360 Yeah, it was bad.

00:33:48.360 It was the 18th stage that you won in his honor three days later.

00:33:51.900 When did you realize you were going to win that race, that stage rather?

00:33:54.880 At the end of the tour, they're just custom made for breakaways, right?

00:33:59.280 The GC is set.

00:34:00.980 Those days are for the opportunist.

00:34:02.780 And I went away in a group.

00:34:03.900 And ironically, Johan Berniel was in that group too, but it was a huge group.

00:34:08.260 And that group stays away.

00:34:09.780 They never get caught.

00:34:10.800 And then they basically race amongst themselves.

00:34:13.700 And I just took a huge flyer.

00:34:15.840 I think it was 30, 40K to go, just went away.

00:34:19.160 Like a lot of times, they can't get organized. 0.99

00:34:21.160 And when I went, man, I was fucking flying. 0.61

00:34:25.720 In fact, our director at the time, Henny Kuyper, who's a legendary Dutch cyclist, 0.98

00:34:30.020 he kept coming up and giving me time splits.

00:34:31.840 You were gaining on the gap?

00:34:33.840 Yeah.

00:34:34.720 And finally, I said, Henny, don't come up here anymore.

00:34:39.300 I said, I'm not getting caught.

00:34:40.860 Just stay back there.

00:34:42.120 I knew it.

00:34:42.780 And I was just flying.

00:34:45.900 Did you feel a sense of, this was for Fabio, you felt a little extra strength that day?

00:34:50.200 I mean, I've heard, I've heard so many athletes talk about that when they're Damon Hill talking

00:34:54.400 about racing after Senna died later in that season, feeling like he couldn't just make

00:34:59.540 that car go fast enough.

00:35:00.600 And it's almost like he looked up to the skies and just asked for some bit of help from him.

00:35:04.220 You're just floating.

00:35:05.540 I don't want to oversell our relationship or our friendship.

00:35:08.980 I didn't really know Fabio.

00:35:10.280 We were on our team together.

00:35:11.160 He didn't speak English.

00:35:12.000 I didn't speak Italian.

00:35:12.880 But he died in our colors and it just doesn't happen.

00:35:17.620 I mean, it's extraordinary that it happened to us that day.

00:35:21.680 I mean, I was just possessed.

00:35:24.700 So going into the 96 season, that's the year you decided it was time to start moving into

00:35:29.200 the high octane world, correct?

00:35:31.120 No, we made that decision in 95.

00:35:33.060 Oh, you did?

00:35:33.540 Yeah.

00:35:34.000 Okay.

00:35:34.660 I joined Ferrari.

00:35:35.940 So that was...

00:35:36.620 So in 95, you were sort of doing freestyle EPO, managing it on your own?

00:35:40.980 I think that would be a bad idea to just go off and do that on your own.

00:35:44.740 There was some oversight.

00:35:46.680 And would you manage it to a certain hematocrit?

00:35:48.740 Is that effectively what was being done?

00:35:50.440 They started doing the sort of morning hematocrit tests while I was out of the sport.

00:35:55.300 In 95 and 96, they didn't.

00:35:57.960 No, no.

00:35:58.280 I don't mean the race organizers.

00:35:59.940 I mean, were the doctors using hematocrit as a way to guide your EPO level and your dose?

00:36:05.300 Or hemoglobin.

00:36:06.520 Yeah.

00:36:06.820 Yeah.

00:36:07.460 So what is your normal hemoglobin?

00:36:09.380 And since we live in Aspen now, I'm sure it's probably 45 or 46.

00:36:13.920 But if I lived here in Austin, it would be in the low 40s.

00:36:17.540 Do you remember when you started doing EPO in 95?

00:36:21.340 Presumably, they gave you enough EPO to bring your hematocrit up to 50, I would guess, is

00:36:25.700 where they kind of wanted you?

00:36:26.980 50 was not.

00:36:28.760 I know that there was no ceiling.

00:36:30.340 Right.

00:36:30.720 But did they have concern about blood clotting and things like that?

00:36:33.640 Not at 50.

00:36:35.060 And maybe not even at 60.

00:36:37.000 People on Everest better than me that have a hematocrit of 70.

00:36:40.800 So do you know how high they were pushing your crit back in 95?

00:36:44.780 The answer is no.

00:36:45.860 I would remember if it had been 60 or sort of the stories you hear from some folks.

00:36:51.080 But enough is enough, right?

00:36:52.520 At some point, you're competitive.

00:36:54.300 You're at the front of the...

00:36:55.040 Why do you need to do more?

00:36:58.500 Did you feel a difference?

00:36:59.500 Did you notice a difference from 94?

00:37:01.620 Oh, yeah.

00:37:02.540 I mean, let's not kid ourselves.

00:37:04.060 It's a very effective substance.

00:37:06.860 Do you have the sense that it was being used as often in the one-day races as it was in

00:37:13.600 the Grand Tours?

00:37:14.220 Absolutely.

00:37:14.840 Yeah.

00:37:15.820 Again, there's no reason it wouldn't help you in Paris-Roubaix just as much as it helps

00:37:19.640 you on...

00:37:20.060 Absolutely.

00:37:20.920 Watts or Watts.

00:37:21.800 I mean, you're getting 10% more hemoglobin or hematocrit, however you want to describe

00:37:26.040 it, you are also getting at threshold 10% more power.

00:37:31.020 Were you using a power meter yet at that point?

00:37:33.200 98 was when I first started using the SRM.

00:37:36.660 The SRM, yeah, it was so good.

00:37:38.780 Do you remember off the top of your head what your functional threshold power was in 98?

00:37:42.680 I remember what it was in 99.

00:37:44.520 Before the tour in 99, I tested on the Madone.

00:37:48.220 Which was your go-to test, right?

00:37:50.240 I wasn't the first to use it.

00:37:52.380 Tony Romager used it.

00:37:54.020 He had the fastest time and, you know.

00:37:56.160 How many kilometers is Madone?

00:37:57.900 Well, it's about 30 minutes.

00:37:59.420 30 minutes.

00:38:00.360 And what's the grade?

00:38:01.740 It's about 7-8%.

00:38:03.700 So it's a straight in the saddle pound away for 30 minutes.

00:38:08.100 And what did you average for 30 minutes in 99?

00:38:10.000 500 watts.

00:38:11.400 Are you freaking kidding me?

00:38:14.120 500 watts for 30 minutes?

00:38:17.000 Yeah.

00:38:17.240 And at that point, you were 165 pounds?

00:38:20.080 Yep.

00:38:20.740 Yeah, it was 7 watts kilo.

00:38:21.640 We got a few things to cover before we get to 7 watts per kilo.

00:38:27.140 96, you should be in top form. 0.94

00:38:30.960 And you're sick as hell in the tour. 0.94

00:38:33.500 You pull out. 0.98

00:38:34.520 Yep.

00:38:35.320 I thought I was just sick.

00:38:37.180 And I was definitely sick of being there. 0.99

00:38:39.280 It was just shit weather that year. 0.98

00:38:41.180 And I wasn't riding that well. 0.99

00:38:43.240 And I was ready to go home.

00:38:44.820 When did you notice the testicular pain?

00:38:47.060 Certainly then.

00:38:48.140 But I just, you know, soreness.

00:38:50.200 That was the first symptom, right?

00:38:51.380 Just enlarged testicle, sore on every level, sore to the touch, sore to sit on a seat, cross your legs in an awkward way. 0.68

00:39:00.740 It would hurt. 0.92

00:39:01.420 And I just thought it had to do with sitting on a bike seat all the time.

00:39:04.720 You know, I've heard you say that before.

00:39:05.840 And I've always thought it's kind of funny because you've been sitting on a bike for 10 years at that point.

00:39:09.760 I know.

00:39:10.420 But then you're also...

00:39:11.320 I mean, you're rationalizing it to yourself.

00:39:13.320 Growing up and just even to this day, I just rarely get sick.

00:39:16.920 And I certainly didn't think that I would ever be in that position.

00:39:19.800 But it was ignore after ignore.

00:39:22.560 Even as the symptoms became more and more drastically significant, it just kept going.

00:39:30.440 I had an excuse for all of them.

00:39:31.700 Did you have any headaches?

00:39:32.420 I had one big episode.

00:39:35.400 That was right before diagnosis.

00:39:38.380 Massive headache.

00:39:39.540 Massive headache.

00:39:40.120 Massive.

00:39:40.620 Any visual changes?

00:39:41.860 The next day.

00:39:42.680 Yeah.

00:39:42.900 So the visual...

00:39:44.380 It was here in Austin, actually.

00:39:45.880 They used to have a venue south of town.

00:39:49.080 I forget.

00:39:49.640 But I went to a Jimmy Buffett concert.

00:39:51.900 I got a huge headache at the concert.

00:39:54.200 Next day, woke up.

00:39:55.220 Blurry vision.

00:39:56.560 Even then, I'm pushing through.

00:39:57.640 I'm like, okay, headache because I was at a concert, maybe had a couple beers.

00:40:01.640 You're not supposed to have the headache while you're having the beers.

00:40:05.080 It's supposed to be the next day.

00:40:06.260 Then the blurry vision.

00:40:07.340 Well, I'm getting some glasses.

00:40:09.800 And then probably a week after that was the one that sent me to the doc.

00:40:13.560 Just coughing up blood everywhere.

00:40:15.620 Everywhere.

00:40:16.700 That's October 2nd.

00:40:18.360 I mean, it would have been maybe October 1st because the blood episode happened.

00:40:23.460 You know, coughing up the blood, spitting it out.

00:40:25.180 Called my buddy who was a neighbor as a doctor.

00:40:27.420 I said, man, I'm not aware you're coughing up blood.

00:40:28.980 Can you come look at it?

00:40:30.020 And cosmetic surgeon, not an oncologist, not a, you know, sort of looked in my nose and

00:40:34.900 down my throat. 0.76

00:40:36.620 And I had rinsed out the sink.

00:40:38.340 So he didn't see how much was there?

00:40:40.100 He didn't see how much blood there was there.

00:40:42.560 Did it scare you?

00:40:43.920 Oh, yeah.

00:40:45.300 Yeah.

00:40:46.420 Obviously, didn't do a good enough job telling him how much blood was in the sink.

00:40:49.940 So he thought it was a sinus thing.

00:40:52.020 Your sinus, you dry the crack, you cough up a little blood.

00:40:53.900 And you weren't putting two and two together, of course.

00:40:55.780 This thing in my testes, the headache, the blood, there's no way in your mind these are

00:40:59.720 all related.

00:41:00.580 No.

00:41:00.980 And then the next day, which was October 2nd, I called him back. 0.75

00:41:05.160 This pain at this point was so bad and the testicle was so swollen.

00:41:09.700 I said, listen, there's just one other thing that I'm just embarrassed or I just, you know,

00:41:13.680 I haven't talked about that this is going on.

00:41:16.140 And that's when he said, okay, this, we got to get that checked out.

00:41:20.480 That's when I drove to Jim Reeves' office on the 2nd.

00:41:24.940 People talk often about when a diagnosis like this is levied on them, they're not even able

00:41:30.220 to process what's being said.

00:41:31.540 Like you hear some things, but you don't hear other things.

00:41:34.400 I remember experiencing this as the one delivering this news where you sort of try to talk as

00:41:40.540 slowly as possible.

00:41:41.580 You pause as much as possible, but you realize at the end of that, they probably heard a 10th

00:41:47.040 of what you said.

00:41:47.960 What is your recollection of the very first time?

00:41:50.700 Because by this point, they probably had a chest X-ray.

00:41:53.420 Well, it's one of the first things Jim Reeves did.

00:41:55.780 They also did another little shot.

00:41:57.980 I'll never forget this.

00:41:58.800 They gave me a little shot under the skin where they were going to test a reaction or something.

00:42:02.880 I said, what are you doing?

00:42:04.160 What's this for?

00:42:04.780 And they said, oh, we want to rule out tuberculosis.

00:42:07.860 And I remember thinking, God, please give me tuberculosis.

00:42:11.240 And then he wanted a chest X-ray.

00:42:12.920 And I'm like, what do you need a chest X-ray for?

00:42:16.680 And then they sent me to the ultrasound.

00:42:18.920 They had a young lady in there. 1.00

00:42:20.340 It was the tech.

00:42:20.980 She just took forever.

00:42:21.980 And I thought, does she not know what she's doing?

00:42:23.560 Then the actual doctor came in and repeated the test.

00:42:27.000 This was an ultrasound of your testes and your abdomen, I'm guessing. 0.52

00:42:29.700 And then they walked in and they handed me the file, which had the chest X-ray, had the scan report.

00:42:36.120 And they said, go back to Dr. Reeves' office.

00:42:38.580 He's waiting for you.

00:42:39.940 And at this point, it's like, I don't know, 6 or 7 p.m.

00:42:43.480 I'm like, this is not good.

00:42:47.200 I can remember most of what he said because he didn't say very much.

00:42:50.760 Now, at the time, did they know that it was not seminomatous?

00:42:54.420 There was still a window of opportunity that this was going to be a very curable form of testicular cancer.

00:42:59.320 I think with the chest, I mean, the chest X-ray was riddled.

00:43:02.360 I mean, it was more white than it was gray.

00:43:05.040 Pretty good indication.

00:43:06.660 How long until you had the orchiectomy?

00:43:09.140 Next morning.

00:43:10.300 Because that's what I said to Reeves.

00:43:11.380 I said, I feel like I should get a second opinion.

00:43:14.080 And he said, you have surgery at 7 a.m. tomorrow morning.

00:43:17.540 And keep in mind, this is in 1996.

00:43:20.380 The way people would process this news today, they would say, okay, I'm going to go home.

00:43:24.640 I'm going to open my computer.

00:43:25.700 I'm going to Google everything I can about whatever my doctor just told me.

00:43:29.640 And I'm going to start to learn and get a bunch of information and figure out options.

00:43:33.960 And none of that existed.

00:43:35.520 We did not have the internet in 1996.

00:43:39.100 When did you call your mom?

00:43:40.420 Oh, right away.

00:43:41.320 Yeah, right when I got home.

00:43:42.660 How was she?

00:43:44.220 My mom's always, and this is, I think, what makes her great and strong.

00:43:49.240 She would never show weakness.

00:43:50.620 Although I know she had moments where she would be sad and upset and worried.

00:43:56.880 On the surface, she just had this shield. 0.99

00:43:59.260 Like, let's fucking go. 0.99

00:44:00.700 We got this. 0.99

00:44:01.920 You could do this.

00:44:02.840 Anything that I ever saw, she was totally confident.

00:44:06.320 Did you understand what the prognosis was at that time?

00:44:08.960 Not really.

00:44:10.300 I mean, I know it was as advanced as it was.

00:44:13.180 Well, it wasn't just that it was advanced, right?

00:44:14.660 It was the histology of it.

00:44:16.000 It was not a seminomatous tumor, which is, at that point, really the only testicular cancer that's curable, right?

00:44:21.560 You had a much more histologically advanced cancer that...

00:44:25.200 Choreocarcinoma.

00:44:26.300 Which was wildly metastatic.

00:44:28.180 What was your alpha-theta protein level?

00:44:30.300 That was elevated.

00:44:31.180 The one we monitored the closest was beta-HCG.

00:44:35.240 How high was that?

00:44:36.100 100,000.

00:44:37.680 So you were pregnant? 0.99

00:44:38.820 I know.

00:44:39.260 Well, anything.

00:44:41.160 Yeah, I was very pregnant.

00:44:42.420 I mean, if you come in with 500, you got a problem.

00:44:46.260 Anything above two, you have a problem.

00:44:48.260 So you had the orchiectomy.

00:44:50.280 They also took out lymph nodes.

00:44:52.660 Nope.

00:44:53.000 Didn't touch the lymph nodes.

00:44:54.740 Didn't touch the lungs.

00:44:56.560 When did you know you had brain mets? 0.63

00:44:58.040 When did they do the CT scan?

00:44:59.740 When I got to Indiana.

00:45:01.960 So you mean you went through all of this and they still didn't know you had...

00:45:05.720 Right.

00:45:06.160 I originally was treated my...

00:45:07.700 I did my first cycle of chemotherapy here in Austin.

00:45:10.000 What was the chemo you did here?

00:45:11.580 That was traditional BEP.

00:45:13.640 So I did do one.

00:45:14.440 We were talking about it.

00:45:15.060 One with bleu.

00:45:15.300 Yeah, I did one cycle with bleu.

00:45:17.880 Could have won eight if I didn't do that one cycle.

00:45:20.560 Yeah.

00:45:20.940 So bleomycin is a really, really toxic chemo.

00:45:24.660 Yep.

00:45:25.260 We'll talk about it in a second when we get to Indiana, why they decided to have a little

00:45:29.740 faith and play the long game.

00:45:31.600 What led you to Indiana?

00:45:32.900 Because again, in a pre-internet era, it wouldn't have been as clear that that was a place that

00:45:38.240 was really on the cusp of doing something.

00:45:40.600 Yeah, but even...

00:45:41.480 I mean, they had done the work, right?

00:45:42.960 Yeah.

00:45:43.020 Like my local oncologist knew, I mean, maybe even pre-internet, they still knew where the

00:45:49.340 centers of excellence were.

00:45:50.740 In other words, it came from the docs here.

00:45:52.340 You didn't have to go and make that decision.

00:45:54.280 He had mentioned that Dr. Larry Einhorn in Indianapolis was the king when it came to testicular

00:46:01.280 cancer.

00:46:01.680 In fact, a lot of his work really led to platinum-based therapies really being as effective as they

00:46:08.540 are.

00:46:08.860 So, and he was in Australia at the time.

00:46:11.300 He was lecturing in Australia.

00:46:12.760 And when I heard his name, I said, I got to find this guy.

00:46:16.020 And then we tried to call him and he was off in Australia.

00:46:19.100 But the four cycles in total, the first cycle was done here in Austin.

00:46:23.140 So you go one week on, two weeks off, one week on, two weeks off.

00:46:26.140 So I had two weeks and that's when I first went to Houston to visit MD Anderson.

00:46:31.520 And then I ended up-

00:46:32.880 Did MD Anderson also recommend BLEO in the standards?

00:46:35.360 Well, they had a whole different approach.

00:46:37.740 It was not traditional therapy, which is interesting.

00:46:40.700 Much more chemotherapy, a lot more compounds.

00:46:44.100 It just didn't feel right.

00:46:46.000 I left.

00:46:46.800 So when you got to Indiana, did they do the CT scan first?

00:46:49.720 They figure out you've got brain mets as well.

00:46:52.000 Is that another, what the hell is going on here?

00:46:54.540 How much worse can this get moment?

00:46:56.140 I mean, yes.

00:46:58.160 The answer is yes, but also a bit of a relief.

00:47:00.060 You're like, okay, that's-

00:47:01.020 That explains.

00:47:01.640 This has got to be the worst part of it.

00:47:03.280 So like now that this is my line in the sand, it's not getting worse.

00:47:08.900 It's really, really bad, but it's not going to get worse.

00:47:11.700 So I'm just trying to understand, Lance, like at what point were you thinking I might

00:47:15.860 not live here?

00:47:17.380 God, I mean, it certainly crossed my mind, but I didn't have days where I would sit there

00:47:22.420 and go, I am going to die.

00:47:23.480 Like I just kept, and we were doing so much with the blood work.

00:47:27.160 I'm like, we were measuring the HCG.

00:47:29.480 It was coming down.

00:47:30.540 They, what do you want to see?

00:47:31.520 Like what's, this is the scoreboard, which-

00:47:33.360 What's my metric?

00:47:34.040 Yeah.

00:47:34.160 What is my metric that says I'm ahead in this game?

00:47:36.280 And they said a log drop off every cycle.

00:47:38.760 Man, we were hitting it, bam, bam.

00:47:41.300 It just kept coming down. 0.99

00:47:42.400 And I was like, I'm kicking this thing's ass. 0.99

00:47:44.540 Like, yeah, I can turn around and the cancer can pivot and the chemo doesn't work, whatever 0.99

00:47:48.680 work, whatever happens.

00:47:50.040 But I just felt like I got on top of it and I didn't sit around-

00:47:53.860 And they went with this other protocol, right?

00:47:55.440 They went with-

00:47:55.980 They went with, well, that was the first thing they asked me.

00:47:57.980 They said, you're a professional cyclist.

00:48:00.820 I said, do you ever want to race bikes again?

00:48:02.320 And I said, I mean, if I can live, yeah, they prefer to live.

00:48:07.280 That would be cool.

00:48:08.560 And they said, well, you can't keep doing blio.

00:48:10.920 Yeah.

00:48:11.340 It's just, it's so pulmonary toxic.

00:48:12.660 It's so cardio toxic.

00:48:14.140 People ask like, why wouldn't everybody be treated the way you were treated with a protocol

00:48:19.000 called VIP, which doesn't indicate that you're a VIP.

00:48:21.960 It's just the-

00:48:22.780 Yeah.

00:48:22.880 It's vincristine and cisplatin and blah, blah, blah.

00:48:25.160 And so the downside to being treated with VIP is you have to stay as an inpatient.

00:48:30.380 So blio, you can go home. 1.00

00:48:31.940 Like you go into the chemo clinic for three or four hours, get your chemo and you go home.

00:48:35.740 VIP, one of those, and I don't, I forget which one is so toxic, not on the lungs, but on the

00:48:41.440 body that you have to have 24 seven hydration.

00:48:44.500 So you have to be in the hospital.

00:48:46.380 People want to go home.

00:48:47.900 Chemo was bad for you.

00:48:49.500 Chemo was bad at the end.

00:48:51.720 And I still talk to people about this because they about to start chemo.

00:48:54.880 They asked me and, you know, cycle one, I was like, you sure you did this right?

00:48:58.740 Like, I don't feel anything.

00:48:59.820 Cycle two, get sick a few times.

00:49:03.060 Like, Ooh, okay.

00:49:04.060 I think they got it right this time. 1.00

00:49:05.860 Cycle three, just sick as shit. 1.00

00:49:07.500 Cycle four, you just want to sleep. 1.00

00:49:09.220 It just compounds and compounds.

00:49:11.440 It got much, much worse.

00:49:13.800 What was the recovery like from the neurosurgery?

00:49:16.020 They were big cuts.

00:49:18.480 I mean, they were probably tennis ball size.

00:49:22.140 The easiest way to describe it for people listening or have never been there is it's like doing

00:49:27.580 the pumpkin for Halloween.

00:49:28.680 Like you literally just cut the hole, pull off the thing, dig out the seeds and put the

00:49:34.480 thing back on it.

00:49:35.360 And there were two of them.

00:49:36.260 There was one on the top, one on the back, right on the surface.

00:49:40.060 Dr. Shapiro was my neurosurgeon.

00:49:41.860 He saw him and he pulled that skull off and right there.

00:49:46.860 And they were dead.

00:49:48.240 Oh, this was done after most of the chemo?

00:49:51.020 No, it was done before halfway.

00:49:55.240 The response was amazing.

00:49:56.200 I don't know how, you know, the blood brain barrier, this barrier that prevents super toxic

00:50:01.640 stuff from getting to the brain.

00:50:02.900 They should not have been dead.

00:50:04.860 That's why they go in there and take them out.

00:50:06.760 I'm not a surgeon or a scientist, but they take them out and they walk them over and look

00:50:10.680 at them immediately in the microscope and they were dead.

00:50:15.100 At that point in time, is there anybody you remember meeting in the hospital that made

00:50:20.160 you feel like you were having a shared experience with another patient?

00:50:23.280 Was there any patient that sticks out to you?

00:50:25.960 No, I was kept pretty isolated.

00:50:29.640 I never shared a room.

00:50:31.300 I did chemo in my room.

00:50:33.220 I didn't, you know, a lot of hospitals or centers.

00:50:36.080 It's like a big room with lazy boys everywhere.

00:50:38.700 And you sit beside the, you know, I'm Lance with testicular cancer and you're Gina with breast

00:50:43.840 cancer and Joe with colon.

00:50:45.280 I was always alone in my room.

00:50:47.600 Which is interesting because it seems like very early on you latched on to an important

00:50:53.360 idea, right?

00:50:54.040 Which was people need help navigating this system.

00:50:57.680 You obviously felt moved at a very early point in your disease and recovery to create a foundation

00:51:03.800 that you ultimately would.

00:51:05.140 What do you think was part of the impetus for that in your experience?

00:51:08.320 Even as modest as the expectations were, it was like, and you could think about it a lot

00:51:12.660 of different ways.

00:51:13.260 It wasn't so much about navigation at the time.

00:51:15.180 It was more about here you have a disease or a type of cancer with a huge stigma around

00:51:19.540 it.

00:51:19.680 You have young men that like me that are swelling or pain.

00:51:23.420 And they're not going to go out and advertise that and most likely not seek help until it's

00:51:28.940 a problem.

00:51:30.280 So just trying to bring awareness to that.

00:51:32.440 And we thought we'd started a bike ride here in Austin.

00:51:35.280 We thought we'd get a few people out there, donate some money.

00:51:38.240 We had no plan, but it just felt like the time to do something.

00:51:42.960 Was it sort of a pay it forward thing?

00:51:44.300 Like you were just so happy to be alive that you were like, I just have to share some of this.

00:51:50.320 Well, we started, yeah, well, we started it before.

00:51:52.280 I should say we started it during.

00:51:54.660 Wasn't entirely sure that there was going to be a forward, but.

00:51:57.740 It's interesting.

00:51:58.320 Obviously the foundation would grow to over half a billion dollar in money raised.

00:52:03.300 And I think what a lot of people don't appreciate, but I always appreciated was that that money

00:52:08.680 was very specific and that it wasn't directed towards research.

00:52:11.560 And you might say, well, God, that doesn't make sense.

00:52:13.540 Shouldn't all money in cancer be towards research?

00:52:15.860 But I always thought it was a really great thing that the money wasn't directed towards research

00:52:19.760 because there are a lot of dollars directed towards research and there are not a lot of

00:52:23.840 dollars directed towards the other things.

00:52:26.680 Research is imperative.

00:52:27.760 It must be.

00:52:28.320 And it should be by far the largest allocation of resources within a portfolio that's trying

00:52:33.120 to address cancer.

00:52:34.100 But it's this other stuff, this softer stuff of how do you help a family that can't afford

00:52:40.820 the travel for the child with cancer?

00:52:44.120 How do you provide the resources for somebody?

00:52:46.240 You inspired a lot of other people like Fertility Hope and other people to come along and address

00:52:49.920 other problems that just probably didn't get enough attention.

00:52:53.920 And on the advocacy side, I agree with everything you said.

00:52:56.840 And you have to raise billions and billions, maybe even trillions to properly.

00:53:02.140 I mean, there's only one person that can fund that.

00:53:04.080 Those are federal governments.

00:53:05.540 And but on the advocacy side, because we ended up gaining so much power just with the story

00:53:11.020 and the brand of Livestrong.

00:53:12.780 I mean, we advocated here in the state of Texas for a bond initiative that created what we

00:53:17.700 called CEPRA, the Cancer Prevention Research Institute of Texas.

00:53:20.840 It's a $3 billion bond initiative.

00:53:22.480 We, at the time, Livestrong spent about $600,000 on that initiative.

00:53:28.620 So picking the best lobbyists, all the strategy, right?

00:53:32.300 I see the $600,000, but I view that as we just funded.

00:53:36.020 That's an Archimedes lever, right?

00:53:38.140 We funded $3 billion in research and prevention.

00:53:41.400 So otherwise, you could never go out and you can't sell enough yellow bands to do that.

00:53:46.820 So when did you decide, yeah, not only am I well enough to come back,

00:53:50.480 did you already have the contract with Cofidis prior to getting sick?

00:53:55.340 Motorola had already-

00:53:56.520 Motorola folded.

00:53:57.860 You're already officially on Cofidis.

00:53:59.920 And then you come back and what are they thinking?

00:54:04.000 I mean, before the even, there was no come.

00:54:05.500 I mean, they sent a representative over and it's crazy that they're still in the sport.

00:54:10.120 They sent somebody to the US to basically say, listen, this is probably best.

00:54:14.960 He just-

00:54:15.760 They sent somebody to evaluate you, to come and lay eyes on you?

00:54:18.380 He lay eyes on me, but then have a conversation with my agent and say, look,

00:54:21.520 we should probably just part ways.

00:54:23.140 And your contract was a big contract, right?

00:54:25.480 I mean, this was like a million dollar contract?

00:54:26.780 Yep.

00:54:27.760 Yep.

00:54:28.560 Yeah.

00:54:28.780 We didn't let them part ways.

00:54:30.500 So you were officially with that team for a year?

00:54:34.340 Yeah.

00:54:35.240 Yeah.

00:54:35.520 So 97.

00:54:37.040 Did you ride?

00:54:38.200 Nope.

00:54:38.460 Okay.

00:54:39.420 So they don't renew your contract, obviously, at the end of 97.

00:54:43.120 The other interesting thing, which I don't think has been talked about much, I had a disability

00:54:47.060 policy, which typically is for injuries, crashes, anything that makes you disabled enough,

00:54:54.360 you can't turn the crank.

00:54:56.160 But cancer, in a way, fell under that.

00:54:58.640 So I took the disability policy or started to take it.

00:55:02.240 And the deal was, if you go back and race again, then it stops. 0.71

00:55:06.720 It avoids it, yeah.

00:55:07.820 And so I think it was a three-year payout.

00:55:09.800 And I thought, God, this might be a good off-ramp, right?

00:55:12.440 I'll just, until it wasn't.

00:55:13.900 Then I decided to stay on the highway.

00:55:15.480 But it wasn't easy, right?

00:55:16.800 Because it wasn't like anyone was clamoring at your door in 98.

00:55:20.820 When we went back out to shop, me, to teams, zero.

00:55:26.440 Zero interest.

00:55:28.120 Postal was really not that interested.

00:55:30.400 What do you think changed their mind?

00:55:32.700 You have to go follow it backwards.

00:55:34.680 But I mean, Postal, the team Postal, which was owned by Tom Weisel, had been around.

00:55:39.400 I was on Weisel's team before Motorola.

00:55:43.080 So I had history there.

00:55:44.400 I had relationships.

00:55:45.880 I had, obviously, a relationship with him.

00:55:48.660 So maybe it was that, but it wasn't a cold call.

00:55:52.040 Like, I was essentially going back to Weisel's team because I left Subaru Montgomery to go to

00:55:57.320 Motorola.

00:55:57.760 They gave you 200K or something like that as a base.

00:56:01.380 Yeah.

00:56:01.800 And then a bunch of performance bonuses, right?

00:56:04.180 Yeah.

00:56:04.540 I negotiated like a thousand bucks.

00:56:06.600 Back then, again, I loved the way the sport was structured, the World Cups, UCI points.

00:56:12.060 You had a number one ranked rider in the world. 0.97

00:56:15.660 That's a fucking cool deal. 0.98

00:56:17.100 Like when I watch golf or tennis or- 0.99

00:56:19.380 You know who's the best?

00:56:20.140 Yeah.

00:56:20.700 Djokovic is the number one player.

00:56:22.260 Well, yeah, duh.

00:56:23.620 Lewis Hamilton is the number one driver in F1 because he has the most points and wins. 0.99

00:56:28.420 No shit. 0.98

00:56:29.640 We had that in cycling. 0.99

00:56:30.580 They don't have that anymore.

00:56:32.240 I pinned it to a thousand bucks per point.

00:56:35.180 And realistically back then, how many points would the top rider have?

00:56:38.760 Thousands.

00:56:39.840 Millions of dollars, potentially.

00:56:41.280 Yeah.

00:56:41.300 And that's what I went out and did in 98.

00:56:43.720 In 98, because you did Paris Nice, right? 1.00

00:56:46.520 Then I quit, came home, said, fuck this. 0.99

00:56:48.980 I'm out of here. 1.00

00:56:49.620 I'm not cut out for this.

00:56:50.740 I'm not.

00:56:51.180 Yeah.

00:56:51.360 I want to talk about that race.

00:56:52.560 Yeah.

00:56:53.020 What went wrong?

00:56:54.360 Oh, just weather.

00:56:56.820 And I sort of had this idea in my mind that if I did the Olympics in 1996-

00:57:02.280 You didn't know it at the time, but you were riddled with tumors.

00:57:05.300 One flesh alone.

00:57:06.400 And then looking back on it, I was like, wait, if I was that good then, and I was that sick, 0.99

00:57:13.340 like all this shit's gone. 0.99

00:57:14.580 Now I'm going to be like 10 times as strong. 1.00

00:57:17.160 Of course I wasn't.

00:57:18.520 I was strong and it was good to have it out of my body, but just caught me on a day, man. 0.99

00:57:23.700 It was fucking crosswind. 0.99

00:57:25.420 Back of the Peloton, the Peloton split. 0.99

00:57:27.580 And I'm just like, I'm going home.

00:57:29.760 Literally pulled over, got in the car, went to the hotel, called Kristen.

00:57:34.440 I said, we're going home.

00:57:35.400 What did she say?

00:57:36.720 She was supportive.

00:57:38.180 She didn't necessarily agree, but she was supportive.

00:57:40.460 It's been so long since I read your book.

00:57:42.680 I mean, I read it when it came out.

00:57:43.840 It's not about the bike, which probably came out in 2000.

00:57:46.440 So I vaguely remember in that era, you kind of vacillated back and forth between, I want

00:57:51.700 to ride.

00:57:52.020 I don't want to ride.

00:57:52.740 I want to sit around and eat tacos all day and Tex-Mex.

00:57:56.220 And yet somewhere in there, didn't you come in fourth in the Vuelta that year?

00:57:59.280 Well, that was at the end of the year.

00:58:01.120 So was the Tex-Mex beer drinking in the spring?

00:58:03.540 That was Paranese's in March, April.

00:58:06.440 That was probably six weeks around the April timeframe.

00:58:09.820 It was almost like an intervention, a group of friends that were like, look, man, I get

00:58:15.960 it.

00:58:16.320 You don't want to do it anymore, but just finish the season.

00:58:19.000 Like, just start riding, start training.

00:58:20.660 Just don't go out like that.

00:58:22.600 Finish the season.

00:58:24.280 And I said, okay, I'll do that.

00:58:26.560 So I just started riding.

00:58:28.200 No structure.

00:58:29.060 Just riding.

00:58:29.620 I'd go out here in Austin.

00:58:30.840 I'd just, and I rode a lot, four, five, six hours every day.

00:58:35.780 Just riding.

00:58:36.700 This is the season.

00:58:37.800 So what are your teammates doing at this point?

00:58:39.480 They're out racing.

00:58:40.180 They're out racing.

00:58:41.040 Yeah, they're racing.

00:58:41.760 And the team doesn't care that you're not there because they're not paying you anything

00:58:44.320 anyway, basically.

00:58:45.820 I believe I went to the US Pro, the core states in Philly, and then I flew to Europe and did

00:58:51.560 my first race back was a tour of Luxembourg.

00:58:54.000 You win that.

00:58:54.620 Won that.

00:58:55.680 Went to Germany, did another race and won that.

00:58:57.560 These are stage races, short stage races.

00:59:00.120 You've reintroduced EPO at this point.

00:59:02.040 Yep.

00:59:02.680 I forgot to ask you this.

00:59:03.960 Post-orchiectomy, wouldn't you have had a medical exemption for testosterone at that

00:59:08.240 point?

00:59:08.980 I don't think you can, in any sport, could you get that?

00:59:12.580 But didn't you have to start taking more testosterone after you had your testicle removed?

00:59:17.460 Not necessarily.

00:59:19.140 Do you know if you were producing normal amounts?

00:59:22.080 Always on the lower end, but nothing that was problematic or something that you said,

00:59:27.180 listen, this is going to cause further issues down the line.

00:59:31.300 And the other thing I meant to ask you, Lance, did you, at some point during the period of

00:59:36.400 your cancer recovery, think, man, did that growth hormone amplify this in any way, shape

00:59:42.140 or form or any of the other anabolic agents particularly?

00:59:45.200 I mean, there's no way EPO would have, but what was your thought on some of the other drugs

00:59:48.640 you'd used?

00:59:49.640 Well, it certainly crosses your mind.

00:59:51.780 And pre-diagnosis, there was very little of that anyways, only in 96, which was, of

00:59:56.720 course, the year that I got sick.

00:59:58.660 But by the way, it seems to me the least performance enhancing drug for a cyclist.

01:00:02.440 We never went back.

01:00:03.400 I mean, Ferrari was like, don't need it.

01:00:05.760 Never went back.

01:00:07.300 So really the mainstay of drug when you came back was EPO?

01:00:10.120 Yep.

01:00:10.700 And cortisone.

01:00:11.820 And it's amazing that cortisone helped that much, huh?

01:00:14.340 Yeah.

01:00:15.000 You know.

01:00:15.540 How would you guys administer it?

01:00:18.080 Intramuscularly?

01:00:18.520 Yeah.

01:00:18.960 It's helpful to shed weight primarily.

01:00:21.620 And especially as a bulkier guy trying to shed upper body muscle.

01:00:26.220 Yeah.

01:00:26.900 Very helpful.

01:00:28.400 Unbelievable.

01:00:29.920 So 98 comes to an end.

01:00:32.940 You finish unbelievably.

01:00:34.400 I was fourth in everything.

01:00:36.560 Fourth at the Welta, fourth at the World's TT, fourth at the World's Road Race. 0.99

01:00:41.380 I just was like, shit, I'm fourth in everything. 0.87

01:00:44.140 But I got a thousand plus UCI points that Tom Weisel had to pay. 0.95

01:00:47.820 Well, not only that, but you've done it not at your best, right?

01:00:51.180 You really only came back into shape for nine months.

01:00:54.640 You decide at the end of 98, no, I'm coming back in 99.

01:00:57.540 Like now it's, I'm all in.

01:00:58.900 Yep.

01:00:59.680 At that point?

01:01:00.860 Hired Bruniel.

01:01:02.000 Okay.

01:01:02.880 Who was the director of sport?

01:01:04.480 Johnny Welts was the director of sport in 98.

01:01:06.980 Peter, when I say this team was unorganized, like you cannot believe it. 1.00

01:01:10.720 It was such a shit show. 0.99

01:01:14.120 I remember 98. 1.00

01:01:15.440 So I remember, cause I was in my second year of medical school.

01:01:18.440 And I just remember there was a group of guys, we would go riding every Saturday and

01:01:21.300 Sunday morning.

01:01:22.120 And we would, first of all, I was so excited that you were back, but we would joke about

01:01:26.820 like go postal having the two meanings.

01:01:29.520 Like you're cheering for postal team and you're going crazy.

01:01:32.140 Cause it's just so disheveled.

01:01:33.880 And yeah.

01:01:34.940 Well, we had, and I'll never forget this.

01:01:36.960 I mean, Johnny was so disorganized and he would like, they wouldn't pay this one yours

01:01:41.320 and the mechanic, that Vuelta that I ended up getting fourth and I'll walk down one day

01:01:45.320 a breakfast table and everybody's no swan yours. 0.99

01:01:48.580 I said, where's the fucking swan yours? 0.99

01:01:50.700 And I said, they walked out. 1.00

01:01:51.880 I said, wait a minute.

01:01:52.720 We're in the middle of a grand tour.

01:01:54.640 We have to have mechanics.

01:01:56.720 Swan yours. 0.99

01:01:57.580 Like what the fuck is going on? 1.00

01:02:00.660 They just walked out. 0.99

01:02:01.880 Cause they weren't getting paid.

01:02:03.200 So sketchy.

01:02:04.300 And I'm sitting there going, okay, I think I'm back. 1.00

01:02:07.660 I said, but I'm not going to put up with this shit. 1.00

01:02:10.120 Like this is ridiculous. 1.00

01:02:11.800 This is just amateur hour. 0.91

01:02:14.200 And Johan was retiring.

01:02:16.040 I got his number.

01:02:17.700 Marcel Wuss, the old German guy gave me his number.

01:02:20.060 He wore the yellow Jersey for a day back in 96.

01:02:22.480 He was one of those runners.

01:02:23.460 They win the early stages.

01:02:24.480 They get the Jersey.

01:02:25.780 I just called him and we didn't really like each other.

01:02:28.720 We always just sort of butted heads and he was always at the front of the race. 0.99

01:02:33.780 And going back to what I was saying earlier about knowing the race, like knowing where

01:02:37.300 to be, knowing just the energy of this thing.

01:02:40.740 He knew it.

01:02:41.860 And he spoke all these languages and thought that would be good.

01:02:44.920 And I just called him and I said, what are you going to do now?

01:02:47.600 Now that you're retiring.

01:02:49.220 And he was actually either wanting to start or somebody asked him to be a part of a cycling

01:02:54.040 union, which that would have been a great use of his time.

01:02:56.420 And I said, listen, I got an idea.

01:02:58.840 Why don't you come be the director?

01:03:00.420 He was like, are you kidding me?

01:03:02.720 No, because the travel, like it's basically like it's not retiring.

01:03:07.700 I mean, that's just not what he thought he would be doing, but I convinced him.

01:03:13.400 So this is a topic that gets, it's such a controversial topic, but I just, I really want

01:03:17.780 to understand this, right?

01:03:18.760 People consistently say, look, yes, we know everybody doped during that era, but U S postal

01:03:26.480 was different because they did it at an industrial level.

01:03:29.380 It was much more systemic.

01:03:31.620 Let's kind of unpack what that means.

01:03:33.660 So you had already been working with Ferrari and I've never met Ferrari.

01:03:37.820 He's actually a guy I would always want to meet because I think despite how much he's

01:03:41.320 been demonized, I just think he's probably a very smart physiologic wizard.

01:03:44.980 He's incredibly smart.

01:03:46.260 And like how much of your training was he actually guiding?

01:03:50.660 All of it.

01:03:51.640 So did Carmichael who gained fame being associated with you and being your coach, did he do anything?

01:03:56.560 Not at that stage.

01:03:58.120 He was the Olympic coach in 92.

01:04:00.180 And, but once I started seeing Ferrari, you know, Chris was just a advisor friend.

01:04:06.640 We are talking about two very different skill sets here.

01:04:09.920 And I'm not talking about doping.

01:04:11.380 I mean, Michele Ferrari, you can say what you want and you and I calling him intelligent

01:04:15.900 or bright or smart or even genius just drives people crazy.

01:04:20.640 But I've heard him in interviews.

01:04:22.120 No, he's talk about the nuanced level of physiology.

01:04:25.840 I mean, he's top three of all time.

01:04:28.280 So we're talking about two different types of people.

01:04:31.020 You said earlier, look, you had no aspiration of winning the tour.

01:04:34.880 Did that change when you placed fourth in the Vuelta?

01:04:37.680 Was that the first aha moment that says I could win this thing?

01:04:40.440 Yep.

01:04:40.900 And when Johan finally decided to come take me up on my offer, he said it and I'll never forget.

01:04:46.980 He said, you are going to finish on the podium.

01:04:49.360 In 99.

01:04:49.880 In 99. 1.00

01:04:50.840 And I said, you are crazy. 0.99

01:04:52.760 There's no way. 0.99

01:04:54.240 You didn't think so with your confidence?

01:04:56.060 No, no.

01:04:57.020 I mean, that's, first of all, the Vuelta is not the tour.

01:05:00.020 I understand, but.

01:05:01.180 So getting fourth in the Vuelta, yeah, to me, that sort of equates to maybe top 10,

01:05:06.900 which by the way, would have been a great result.

01:05:08.900 But he was 100% sure.

01:05:10.900 At that point in time.

01:05:12.160 So in 98, Pantani had won.

01:05:14.840 In 97, Ulrich had won.

01:05:17.140 And how much time had you spent riding alongside those two?

01:05:20.860 Well, in the grand scheme, not much.

01:05:23.720 Do you have a sense of how you'd stack up against them?

01:05:26.420 I mean, I had never been in a grand tour at my peak form, their peak form.

01:05:30.600 And I mean, I was just guessing.

01:05:33.280 And I don't remember.

01:05:34.280 Why were they not there in 99?

01:05:37.140 Pantani had the.

01:05:38.100 Pantani had the.

01:05:38.620 The thing at the Giro got the hematocrit test.

01:05:41.320 I want to say Jan.

01:05:42.980 He also had, of course, you and I offline have talked a lot about Jan Ulrich.

01:05:47.980 But yeah, I think he had another thing, right?

01:05:50.700 Maybe he tested positive.

01:05:52.140 Something happened.

01:05:53.200 Like he just, he wasn't there.

01:05:54.900 So you show up at 99 and the two best tour riders are not there.

01:06:00.280 That's right.

01:06:00.940 The previous two winners.

01:06:01.860 The previous two winners.

01:06:03.080 I still remember my couch where I sat and watched the prologue that July day.

01:06:11.380 And explain to people why the prologue matters.

01:06:14.020 Like it's not a long stage.

01:06:15.440 Let's get an eight and a half kilometer time trial, right?

01:06:17.460 But what's the importance of it?

01:06:19.020 First and foremost, and they don't always do it anymore, which I completely disagree with.

01:06:23.120 I think it's the baddest thing in the world.

01:06:24.960 Of course.

01:06:25.540 It's the only way to start a tour.

01:06:26.860 It allows the rider, especially the GC guys to really test their condition, not just their

01:06:32.480 own, but against the guys.

01:06:33.940 And you can put 30 seconds in a climber.

01:06:36.580 30 seconds is 30 seconds.

01:06:38.440 And that was a tough one.

01:06:39.960 It had a serious climb sort of halfway through.

01:06:42.580 It was enough that you could make some separation.

01:06:45.600 So there are certain things that the Tour de France should always have.

01:06:48.580 It should always have a prologue.

01:06:49.700 It should always have a team time trial.

01:06:51.100 And they've really gone away from that for some reason, but thankfully not then.

01:06:55.940 You win the prologue.

01:06:56.860 Win the prologue.

01:06:58.000 Easily.

01:06:58.340 Your first yellow jersey.

01:06:59.880 Yeah.

01:07:00.560 We thought we were in a dream.

01:07:02.560 Now remind me, in that tour, you were not using blood transfusions.

01:07:06.260 It was all EPO.

01:07:07.640 You didn't microdose.

01:07:09.000 You were just giving straight regular doses.

01:07:11.460 This is before they had a test for EPO.

01:07:13.320 Yep.

01:07:13.860 The only thing they had was the hematocrit test.

01:07:15.800 Do you remember where you kept your hematocrit at that tour?

01:07:18.160 This is when you were having to stay at about 50.

01:07:20.020 No, 50 would be too close.

01:07:22.640 You had to stay around 46, 47.

01:07:25.440 You know this.

01:07:26.060 I mean, at 47, you're dehydrated or you get sick and they show up like you're done.

01:07:32.460 So something people don't realize is in 1996, Reese won the Tour.

01:07:39.620 So finally unseeds Indoran.

01:07:41.980 His hematocrit was somewhere between 60 and 66 during that race.

01:07:45.700 That's what they say.

01:07:46.540 I mean, we weren't.

01:07:47.320 Yeah.

01:07:47.600 We weren't there with the spinner, but I mean, the nickname, Mr. 60%. 0.99

01:07:51.460 Yeah.

01:07:51.640 His nickname is Mr. 60.

01:07:53.040 So what changed so much?

01:07:55.360 Was it Fistina in 98 that basically brought the hammer down and said, we're done with these 0.58

01:08:00.000 guys walking around with hematocrits in the 60s?

01:08:02.720 Yep.

01:08:03.280 Is it that much of a difference if you're walking around hematocrit is 42, 44 and you're

01:08:08.020 racing 46, 47?

01:08:09.840 Because this has always been my take on it.

01:08:11.540 It's not so much how you're functioning on the beginning of the tour.

01:08:14.440 However, it's that at the end of the tour, you could keep your hematocrit there when

01:08:18.300 ordinarily it would really start to dwindle as you...

01:08:21.560 Well, yeah.

01:08:22.240 But when the tests came around, then yeah, you just knew that it would drop.

01:08:26.880 The GC guys at least found ways around that.

01:08:30.020 And that's where, you know, transfusions came in and which is effectively the same thing.

01:08:33.620 Yeah.

01:08:34.180 Was there anybody on the postal team that year that was not doing EPO?

01:08:38.160 Not that I'm aware of.

01:08:39.300 How much were you guys co-mingling information?

01:08:42.480 So you were seeing Ferrari, but I assume everyone wasn't seeing Ferrari, right?

01:08:46.300 No, a lot of them were.

01:08:47.920 A lot of them were.

01:08:49.180 But the team also had trainers and doctors and, you know, had its own setup.

01:08:54.040 Was that the year Moto Man was going around?

01:08:55.940 Yeah, it was 99.

01:08:57.420 It was 99.

01:08:58.120 Yeah.

01:08:58.400 I thought that was a great idea.

01:09:00.120 Looking back on it, it's like, it's just like...

01:09:02.980 Well, it's a movie. 0.99

01:09:04.020 I mean, it's fucking crazy. 0.99

01:09:05.420 Like what? 0.99

01:09:06.460 Oh, God.

01:09:08.440 Yeah.

01:09:08.900 That was 99.

01:09:10.020 I don't know if this is still the case, but I believe at the time you won in 99, you were

01:09:13.340 the only person to not only win the tour, but win each of the three individual time trials

01:09:17.560 as well.

01:09:18.420 Yep.

01:09:19.160 Well, you had the prologue and then the two long ones.

01:09:20.700 Prologue and then the two...

01:09:21.600 We had long time trials back then.

01:09:23.280 60K at least, right?

01:09:25.080 Yeah.

01:09:25.140 55, 60K.

01:09:25.860 Yeah.

01:09:26.600 So if you're the best and it's that long, you're going to win.

01:09:30.700 You win that year.

01:09:31.660 Do you think to yourself, Ulrich wasn't here, Pantani wasn't here, can I win this thing

01:09:36.340 when they're both there?

01:09:37.320 Not to mention, I mean, that big crash early in the race.

01:09:41.060 I mean, Zula lost seven minutes. 0.94

01:09:43.060 I mean, Zula was close in the race.

01:09:46.040 If you back out that accident, the huge crash...

01:09:49.520 He was within about a minute.

01:09:50.520 Yeah.

01:09:50.760 It would have been close.

01:09:51.880 Even if by saying Pantani and Ulrich aren't there, I mean, you still had Zula, Escortin,

01:09:56.680 Olano.

01:09:57.880 I mean, you can't minimize those guys.

01:09:59.840 We almost take it for granted now, but at the time, how much scrutiny was there over

01:10:04.500 your performance that year?

01:10:05.960 A lot.

01:10:06.620 That was the year of the...

01:10:08.560 Cortisone.

01:10:08.720 Cortisone.

01:10:09.200 Yep.

01:10:10.060 Yeah.

01:10:10.700 Yeah, it started and it was the year after Festina.

01:10:13.440 The Pope could have won the tour and they would have questioned it.

01:10:16.360 Prior to this, you'd never really been on the hot seat, right?

01:10:18.780 So you'd been using the drug, but nobody really cared because you weren't winning the

01:10:21.640 race.

01:10:21.920 So now you're winning the race.

01:10:23.040 I wasn't in the crosshairs.

01:10:23.980 So where do you think the posture came of, this is how my denial is going to be?

01:10:30.080 In retrospect, was there another way to deny without attacking?

01:10:35.540 Because I've got to be honest with you, I don't really remember what the attack mode was

01:10:38.460 like in 99 versus 05.

01:10:40.360 There's a spectrum of attack.

01:10:41.600 You would have to be in the press conferences.

01:10:43.940 You'd have questions about the race and questions about whatever.

01:10:48.420 And then somebody in the corner would, they were just asking a question.

01:10:51.800 At the time, it felt like an attack on me.

01:10:54.600 I said, excuse me? 1.00

01:10:55.720 What the fuck are you talking about? 0.99

01:10:57.240 I mean, literally like that. 1.00

01:10:59.420 Like just, let's go.

01:11:01.540 What did your teammates say?

01:11:02.740 Did anybody pull you aside and say, Lance, you got to back this down, man?

01:11:06.420 No, but they wouldn't have done that.

01:11:07.900 There are others.

01:11:09.380 Johan?

01:11:10.440 Johan, no.

01:11:12.020 We are like brothers.

01:11:13.400 He would do the same thing.

01:11:15.600 It might've been better somebody here locally where my whole operation was run out of to go,

01:11:20.580 you know what?

01:11:21.380 It feels like we may want to back this down a little bit.

01:11:23.880 Just let it go.

01:11:25.540 How many other people in your life knew at the time?

01:11:27.180 Obviously your wife must've known.

01:11:28.900 It wasn't something that I offered up.

01:11:31.040 Did your mom know?

01:11:32.100 Nope.

01:11:32.780 Did she ever ask?

01:11:33.540 Nope.

01:11:34.200 What did your wife say?

01:11:35.380 Very little.

01:11:36.260 I mean, I think she just assumed that level of the sport and that level of doping.

01:11:42.080 You cannot keep that.

01:11:42.900 If you live with a person, that is not going to be a secret.

01:11:45.900 But did she ever say something like, Lance, is this worth it?

01:11:49.780 You know, like if we're playing the long game.

01:11:52.060 I've never had this conversation with her, but, and this is my point is that if you have

01:11:56.320 no ability to keep this a secret from your spouse or whoever you're living with, I have

01:12:01.640 my teammates, they have the wives clubs. 1.00

01:12:03.420 I think the wives, the conversation was like, this is just part of the job because they certainly 1.00

01:12:08.160 all knew.

01:12:08.980 So when 2000, you come back, I want to ask you about Vontu.

01:12:13.300 What was going on between you and Pentani there?

01:12:14.900 Were you guys talking?

01:12:15.900 What was...

01:12:16.620 I was trying to tell him that he, yeah, I was going to give him the win, which is one

01:12:20.240 of the biggest regrets of my career.

01:12:22.200 Why?

01:12:22.880 Not on the Vontu.

01:12:24.320 Merck's called me when I was on the car ride down.

01:12:26.520 He said, you don't ever gift the Vontu ever.

01:12:29.180 Why did you want to gift it to him?

01:12:30.560 I was going to win the tour.

01:12:31.720 I knew I was going to win the tour.

01:12:32.880 I was actually trying to be gracious and be sort of the patron of the peloton.

01:12:38.320 Like, look, I don't need to win everything here.

01:12:40.140 You go win the Vontu.

01:12:41.480 But in hindsight, God, and may he rest in peace.

01:12:44.320 I mean, I'm not talking about Pentani.

01:12:45.680 I'm just talking about the Vontu, right?

01:12:47.960 Which is just, you just don't give that one away.

01:12:50.700 And Merck's called you on the car ride down.

01:12:52.340 Yeah.

01:12:52.800 It's a huge mistake.

01:12:54.260 You never gift the Vontu.

01:12:56.140 Is Merck's the greatest cyclist of all time?

01:12:57.600 Of course.

01:12:58.520 Different sport.

01:12:59.340 Different sport.

01:12:59.840 Different sport.

01:13:00.400 Different sport.

01:13:00.980 But if Merck's were riding today with the sport being so much more specialized,

01:13:06.980 where would he choose to focus his energy?

01:13:10.060 Would he be on the Grand Tours?

01:13:10.980 Yeah, for sure.

01:13:11.860 Yeah.

01:13:12.240 Very different sport now, though.

01:13:14.020 Half man, half bike is a biography of Merck's that I love.

01:13:17.900 And you gave me one of the most amazing gifts ever, which is that book that sits on my coffee

01:13:22.820 table.

01:13:23.320 I was psyched.

01:13:24.100 Dude, greatest thing.

01:13:25.320 I saw it and I was like, oh, Peter has one of those too. 1.00

01:13:27.680 And I was like, wait, you dumbass. 1.00

01:13:29.080 You gave it to him. 1.00

01:13:30.280 Yeah.

01:13:30.600 Yeah, it's a cool book.

01:13:31.640 It's unbelievable.

01:13:32.840 I would recommend anybody who's interested in cycling reading half man, half bike, because

01:13:36.660 you can't really understand what he did.

01:13:40.420 What does it mean to win five gyros, five tours, every single day classic, the one hour

01:13:45.820 record?

01:13:46.480 Like it just doesn't make any sense.

01:13:49.340 Who was second that year?

01:13:50.640 Was that Poloki? 0.97

01:13:51.280 Was he or was that Ulrich that year?

01:13:53.560 No, in 2000, Jan got second, I believe.

01:13:56.500 Is that when you guys began?

01:13:58.360 You've said before that of all the guys you've ever raced, you've never respected anyone more

01:14:03.000 than Jan.

01:14:03.300 Obviously, we're going to talk about Jan a little later.

01:14:05.060 Your respect and your love for Jan post cycling is he's a brother to you.

01:14:09.800 Did it begin in that tour in 2000?

01:14:11.700 It was more intense.

01:14:14.220 I viewed him as a real enemy and a rival. 1.00

01:14:17.420 Fuck this guy. 0.99

01:14:18.420 And I'm like, you know, but when I talk about Jan and what he drove in me was just, I had, 1.00

01:14:25.240 I was fully convinced that he was the most talented, that he was the biggest fear.

01:14:31.480 If anything, every morning got you up and it was pissing rain outside and you had five

01:14:35.640 hours on the schedule, like you better get out there.

01:14:37.700 It was Jan or Roy that got me.

01:14:38.940 None of these other guys, they're all good.

01:14:41.180 They're all, I'm sure, nice guys, but none of them inspired me like him.

01:14:44.860 Yeah.

01:14:45.280 You probably didn't know it at the time, but how much you guys had in common, right?

01:14:48.840 In terms of your upbringing.

01:14:50.160 Yeah.

01:14:50.500 Yeah.

01:14:50.980 And Jan's had a complicated upbringing.

01:14:53.220 What's your biggest memory from 01 and 02?

01:14:56.860 Which was the year you began having suffered a broken collarbone?

01:15:00.420 Didn't you fall and break your-

01:15:01.560 No, in Dauphiné, that was 03.

01:15:03.720 So going into 03-

01:15:05.180 01 was probably physically my best tour.

01:15:08.300 I mean, 01, it was, everybody refers to it as the look.

01:15:11.600 What was your time or what was your wattage up in Madone?

01:15:14.320 All those years were 500 watts.

01:15:16.680 500 watts for 30 minutes.

01:15:19.560 Yeah.

01:15:20.580 And loving it.

01:15:21.480 What do you think your wattage would have been without EPO?

01:15:25.400 Oh, it would have been 450.

01:15:26.640 I'm telling you, it is 10%.

01:15:28.120 You think it's a full 10%?

01:15:29.980 Yeah.

01:15:30.000 Yeah.

01:15:30.300 10%.

01:15:30.940 7 watts per kilo.

01:15:32.400 450 is still pretty good, by the way.

01:15:34.680 Yeah.

01:15:34.960 I mean, look, Bradley Wiggins probably put out 450, 440 to 450 during his one-hour record,

01:15:42.180 which was-

01:15:42.400 That's more impressive.

01:15:43.000 That's flat.

01:15:43.860 Yeah.

01:15:44.120 And you're kinked. 0.82

01:15:45.040 So it's really hard because you're bent over.

01:15:48.520 The look.

01:15:50.280 How deliberate was that?

01:15:51.960 I wasn't looking at Jan.

01:15:53.140 What were you looking at?

01:15:54.180 I knew I was about to send it.

01:15:56.340 And I thought, I feel good.

01:15:59.360 But if this doesn't work, I'm going to need somebody to bail me out.

01:16:04.180 Some new teammate.

01:16:05.560 And Chechu was the last guy with me.

01:16:07.200 And so I was looking back just to make sure that Chechu, and it was just the angle of 1.00

01:16:12.220 the photo, but I was looking back to make sure that he was-

01:16:15.720 That he was going to come with you.

01:16:16.780 Well, that he was close.

01:16:18.360 Still had him in sight.

01:16:20.460 But just the way the photo was captured, it looked like I was looking directly at Jan,

01:16:25.440 which I wasn't.

01:16:27.380 Oh, three.

01:16:28.180 You've got to be a little worried going into that, right?

01:16:29.880 Because you're pretty depleted on red blood cells, aren't you?

01:16:32.360 That's when I had a pretty big crash in the Dauphiné right before.

01:16:35.620 Huge crash, actually.

01:16:36.840 And that's when you couldn't just give yourself Ipoh willy-nilly. 0.95

01:16:40.580 I think by then we had an Ipoh test, right?

01:16:43.220 Yeah.

01:16:44.120 Out of competition, you couldn't.

01:16:45.700 Yes.

01:16:46.360 What was your hematocrit at the beginning of 03?

01:16:48.300 Didn't you come in at like a 42 or something?

01:16:50.300 38.

01:16:51.120 The start.

01:16:51.820 Pre-race check, 38.

01:16:53.340 38.

01:16:54.420 After 99, we never did Ipoh on the tour.

01:16:56.900 You did it out of competition still.

01:16:58.320 Yeah, and then Ferrari had to switch to transfusion.

01:17:00.740 Oh, I didn't realize that.

01:17:01.560 I thought that happened in 02.

01:17:02.840 So you're saying from 2000 on, it was two bags during the race?

01:17:06.820 No.

01:17:07.180 First year was 2000, we did one bag.

01:17:09.100 One bag at what stage?

01:17:10.920 Halfway through.

01:17:11.560 So that first day at Haltakam, that was with nothing.

01:17:16.500 That was before the bag.

01:17:17.760 How are they not catching the jump in hematocrit that comes?

01:17:22.500 You were not worried about, hey, one day my hematocrit's 41,

01:17:25.980 and the next day it's 47?

01:17:27.400 Right, yeah.

01:17:28.000 How close were you to understanding the UCI's algorithm for testing?

01:17:31.880 I mean, at this point, you're becoming,

01:17:33.880 one of the things that people have always said is,

01:17:36.280 hey, Lance had the UCI in his pocketbook.

01:17:39.780 Yeah.

01:17:40.420 We can go down all these rabbit holes, all the stuff.

01:17:43.520 I'm sort of done with that part of my life where I have to contest everything.

01:17:47.380 It's like, but in its totality, if I just put them all on a whiteboard and said,

01:17:52.080 they said this and this and, I mean, you cannot believe this is where I just don't need to go one

01:17:57.880 by one. 1.00

01:17:58.400 But if you look at it in total, you cannot believe how much bullshit was out there. 1.00

01:18:03.120 I mean, yes, the pillars are true, but most of it is just total bullshit. 1.00

01:18:10.960 I mean, I think the point is, it's turning a blind eye. 0.97

01:18:13.820 By the way, Peter, a month ago, they had a 30-minute program on French TV convincing

01:18:20.900 themselves that they had figured out that I had an engine in my bike.

01:18:26.520 I'm not kidding.

01:18:27.800 They figured out where the switch was.

01:18:31.180 I'm not joking.

01:18:32.480 I am dead serious.

01:18:34.500 I'm like, what are you people, what are you doing?

01:18:37.760 I don't know if you ever noticed this, but I would always grab my chamois.

01:18:41.880 Like, I would always, like, kind of adjust it, adjust my chamois. 0.93

01:18:44.980 I had this whole theory that the ass and the chamois and the seat have to line up. 0.99

01:18:49.600 That's peak power. 1.00

01:18:50.580 Like, it's perfect balance and all this shit. 0.99

01:18:52.740 This is on network television. 0.99

01:18:55.000 The switch was in the shorts. 0.94

01:18:56.780 This is a really dumb example, although it's a true story that they aired this. 0.94

01:19:00.820 Most of it just, I'm just like, and fortunately, I've gotten myself to a point in life where 0.99

01:19:06.140 it's like, whatever.

01:19:07.100 Going into that last time trial in 03, you and Jan were really close.

01:19:13.500 Well, yeah.

01:19:14.360 You were not that far ahead of him, right?

01:19:15.620 You were inside a minute, maybe?

01:19:17.200 Yeah, inside a minute.

01:19:18.440 It might have been less.

01:19:19.860 The fear or the stress around it was not so much.

01:19:23.340 It was the checkpoint.

01:19:24.380 How much did he take out of you?

01:19:25.720 The bigger stressor was how much he took out of me in the first time trial.

01:19:29.480 I think he took two minutes out of me.

01:19:31.040 You're thinking, okay, you got 45 seconds.

01:19:33.240 What stage was that?

01:19:34.400 The first one?

01:19:35.220 Yeah.

01:19:35.420 I don't know.

01:19:36.320 It was early.

01:19:36.900 Cap de Couvert.

01:19:37.780 It was.

01:19:38.060 Right.

01:19:38.120 So that's when your hematocrit's 38.

01:19:39.840 Yeah.

01:19:40.060 So you're going, well, you've got 45 second lead.

01:19:42.220 He took two minutes out of you in the first.

01:19:43.540 I mean, everybody said it's over.

01:19:44.880 He's going to catch him.

01:19:45.960 I remember that like it was yesterday.

01:19:47.600 Raining day.

01:19:48.560 Poring rain.

01:19:49.060 He put six seconds on me in the first kilometer.

01:19:51.540 How many K was the time trial?

01:19:53.040 Long.

01:19:53.580 50.

01:19:54.300 50-ish.

01:19:54.920 So what went through your mind at that point?

01:19:56.720 Johan didn't tell me that.

01:19:58.020 He didn't tell you how much?

01:19:59.520 Okay.

01:20:00.020 Six seconds in one kilometer?

01:20:01.200 That's unbelievable. 1.00

01:20:01.660 You fucking get off the bike. 1.00

01:20:02.900 Yeah. 1.00

01:20:03.100 Like I'm done.

01:20:04.420 Did you feel you were redlined?

01:20:06.260 Oh yeah.

01:20:07.140 It was terrible.

01:20:08.620 And were you using your power meter at that point or mostly heart rate?

01:20:12.120 We didn't race with power meters.

01:20:13.940 Trained 100% of the time with them, but not in the races. 0.94

01:20:17.000 Just heart rate.

01:20:18.060 When did they tell you that he fell?

01:20:19.900 Right away.

01:20:20.700 I mean, Johan's watching the race on TV in the car as he's driving.

01:20:24.600 And then I knew.

01:20:25.940 I knew it was over.

01:20:27.260 The other thing about 03 was Beloki, right?

01:20:29.700 Beloki.

01:20:30.100 I still don't understand how you avoided that.

01:20:33.160 Well, of all the things that ever happened to me in the tour, I get asked about that.

01:20:38.620 It's not even close.

01:20:39.980 The ride through the field, that's the one.

01:20:41.880 Even people that don't follow it.

01:20:44.180 Like, man, remember that one time? 0.99

01:20:45.600 Like, you fucking rode across that field. 0.98

01:20:47.520 I was like, yeah, I do remember. 0.99

01:20:49.340 But incredibly lucky.

01:20:51.440 Very unlucky for Joseba.

01:20:52.900 But if you go back and re-watch, of course, there's 100 versions of it on YouTube.

01:20:58.800 But if you go back and re-watch exactly what happened.

01:21:02.600 So he's leading, flying downhill.

01:21:05.160 It's a 100-degree day.

01:21:06.300 It's bad roads with patched whatever with tar.

01:21:09.280 The tar was literally boiling.

01:21:11.520 Tire caught some hot tar and just hindsighted him and ruined his career, ended his career.

01:21:17.460 I mean, I had a choice.

01:21:18.480 I said, I either lay this thing down or go left.

01:21:22.200 How many miles an hour were you going?

01:21:23.580 Oh, we were going 40 miles an hour.

01:21:26.240 And I said, I'm going to go left.

01:21:27.900 Keep in mind, the story ends with me not just riding through the field, but having to get

01:21:31.680 off my bike and jump down on the road.

01:21:34.420 Well, that whole field was, you can go back and watch it on YouTube.

01:21:37.680 So the split second that I said, I'm going left, there was a path.

01:21:42.520 What are the chances?

01:21:43.520 There was a path into the field where the farmer would go in and out with his tractor.

01:21:46.840 What are the chances?

01:21:49.220 I mean, five feet to the right, five feet to the left at 40 miles an hour is like that.

01:21:55.600 And I go straight into the side of the ditch.

01:21:59.640 So I mean, what are the chances that that path is there?

01:22:03.840 And I get in this field and it's just dry.

01:22:07.120 I don't know.

01:22:07.440 I'm no farmer, but it was like dry crop. 1.00

01:22:10.920 I was like, man, this shit is sharp. 0.99

01:22:12.640 Like I better not get a flat. 1.00

01:22:14.480 And I'm just like looking down going, come on, man.

01:22:18.080 And I got to the other side and I could see that it was way down.

01:22:21.680 I was like, I was like, I better get off this thing.

01:22:24.640 I was just, what are the chances?

01:22:27.940 Well, the other one that you must get asked about a lot, and I don't remember which year

01:22:30.500 it was, was when your handlebar got caught.

01:22:32.280 Same year.

01:22:32.740 Was that also 03?

01:22:34.420 Yeah, comedy of errors.

01:22:35.820 I know.

01:22:36.680 And by that point, clearly you and Jan had established an amazing respect because that's

01:22:40.820 when he waited.

01:22:41.640 Yep.

01:22:42.300 Yep.

01:22:42.900 He's a total gentleman.

01:22:44.360 I hit the kid's bag and just straight down.

01:22:48.920 Bike was broken, which we didn't know at the time, but that's the whole chainstay was snapped.

01:22:54.920 But yeah, Jan waited up.

01:22:56.720 So let's fast forward to the end of 05, right?

01:22:59.200 You've won seven.

01:23:00.880 You at the time said, look, I want to spend more time on the foundation.

01:23:03.800 I want to spend more time with the family.

01:23:04.940 I assume those were the real reasons you wanted to retire.

01:23:07.560 I think that's right.

01:23:08.240 When you came back, LeBlanc wrote an open letter basically telling you not to, right?

01:23:13.960 What was that about?

01:23:15.260 Jean-Marie LeBlanc was an icon.

01:23:17.000 I mean, he was a director, director general of the tour.

01:23:21.200 He'll go down as being viewed as one of the greatest directors ever.

01:23:24.720 And a very, very tough guy was his way or the highway.

01:23:29.900 And you just didn't cross, Jean-Marie.

01:23:31.540 I retire.

01:23:32.740 Landis wins.

01:23:33.840 Landis tests positive.

01:23:34.840 So it was a Festina-esque moment in time in cycling.

01:23:39.840 And yet another shift to like guys looking around going, wait a minute. 0.97

01:23:44.020 We might be extinct here if we don't fucking clean this up.

01:23:47.820 And so the sport was shifting to a better place. 0.96

01:23:51.620 Jean-Marie's point was, look, you are a bridge to the past, right?

01:23:55.920 So the sport has evolved.

01:23:58.480 You are part of the old culture. 1.00

01:24:01.720 And it's not good for this.

01:24:02.960 And you know what?

01:24:04.460 He's exactly right.

01:24:05.920 I remember when he wrote it.

01:24:07.140 And I think they printed it.

01:24:08.460 The two big political papers are Le Monde and Le Figaro.

01:24:10.820 I think it was in Le Figaro.

01:24:12.360 And it was interesting because I was in West Texas with Anna on a Marfa, one of my favorite

01:24:18.420 places.

01:24:19.240 Where you just went recently.

01:24:20.180 Yep.

01:24:20.820 And we had just gotten together.

01:24:22.440 She wasn't with me when I raced before.

01:24:24.200 And we were out there and we went to this car.

01:24:26.200 This is so crazy.

01:24:27.260 We were in Fort Davis outside Marfa.

01:24:28.680 I went to this lunch spot and I said, this is a mistake.

01:24:32.880 Coming back.

01:24:33.620 Yep.

01:24:34.220 I said, I shouldn't do this.

01:24:35.540 By the way, did Le Bonk actually call you as well to follow up?

01:24:38.880 Not that I remember.

01:24:39.880 Do you think he would have been more persuasive?

01:24:41.660 No.

01:24:42.360 Why did you do it?

01:24:43.600 The wheels were in motion.

01:24:45.420 Like I felt a ton of responsibility or.

01:24:49.120 To the foundation?

01:24:49.880 Yeah.

01:24:50.320 All of it.

01:24:50.960 I mean, all the sponsors were excited.

01:24:52.560 The foundation was excited.

01:24:54.000 And it felt like quitting.

01:24:56.580 You can call me a lot of things.

01:24:58.340 You cannot call me a quitter.

01:24:59.460 I don't quit at anything.

01:25:00.840 But it would have been easy to say, you know, routine. 0.99

01:25:03.500 He tried on some bullshit and just got out. 0.98

01:25:06.000 And you would have been three days of press where it's like, oh, what happened? 0.99

01:25:09.960 And your view at that point is the sport's clean.

01:25:12.540 So there's no risk to me because I don't need to use anything because no one else is using anything.

01:25:17.840 Was that kind of your view?

01:25:19.240 The best I could tell.

01:25:20.240 Yeah.

01:25:20.840 I mean, I knew I wasn't phase two or phase whatever.

01:25:23.620 The comeback years was clean.

01:25:25.220 And ironically, Ferrari was the one who was adamant.

01:25:28.540 He's like, they are coming for you.

01:25:31.300 We just didn't cross the line.

01:25:33.760 So 09 is kind of close.

01:25:35.080 You're third.

01:25:36.240 And then.

01:25:36.800 No, but it wasn't close.

01:25:37.860 It wasn't close at all.

01:25:39.180 But third is third.

01:25:40.440 I mean, meaning you're on the podium.

01:25:42.060 Yeah.

01:25:42.280 I remember reading an article in the fall of 2009, and I think it was like an ESPN magazine

01:25:47.980 that was comparing your 09 tour to Jordan's comeback, his second comeback, the year they

01:25:56.920 didn't win, right?

01:25:57.720 Because remember, he came back for the last part of the season in 95.

01:26:02.740 And then they're like, well, wait till you see Lance in 10, because that's going to be

01:26:06.320 Jordan's 96 or whatever it was when they went.

01:26:09.440 So what did you think after 2009?

01:26:11.500 Do you ever think, you know what?

01:26:13.200 I gave this a great go.

01:26:14.920 It would be totally respectable to just retire right now, to be off the sport for three years,

01:26:20.140 four years, come back, be on the podium.

01:26:22.020 Now I can retire.

01:26:23.040 What made you stay back?

01:26:24.300 Especially when it meant building a new team.

01:26:26.340 That was a big part of it.

01:26:27.580 I mean, being able to not be on a team from Kazakhstan, literally.

01:26:31.980 Team Borat.

01:26:32.660 And build a whole new team.

01:26:34.480 But at this point, Lance, you're 30.

01:26:37.400 Yeah, I'm old.

01:26:38.840 I mean, I was old in 05.

01:26:40.020 That was 34 years old when I won.

01:26:42.380 Yeah.

01:26:42.580 Like, wasn't it getting a bit old in terms of the training?

01:26:45.840 But again, this machine was rolling.

01:26:48.040 Like, I wasn't going to be the guy to say, I'm getting off the wave here.

01:26:52.040 But what part of the machine at this point?

01:26:53.840 Because from a personal wealth standpoint at that point, you're going to get those sponsors

01:26:57.800 even if you're not riding, aren't you?

01:26:59.420 What I'm trying to get at is how much of this was filling a void that said, I don't like

01:27:03.420 sitting around and not being an athlete.

01:27:06.400 That's not the point. 0.99

01:27:07.360 The point is, every day of that comeback, I was like, what the fuck am I doing? 0.98

01:27:11.560 Ann and I had this conversation the other night. 0.98

01:27:13.240 I was like, somebody asked or came up.

01:27:15.560 And I was like, God.

01:27:16.460 It's like, in my life, I am never going back to that place where you're looking around going,

01:27:20.560 what are you doing?

01:27:22.180 Like, what are you doing?

01:27:23.320 You're not going to win the tour. 0.99

01:27:24.840 Like, what the fuck are you doing? 0.99

01:27:25.820 And then, of course, as it led down, the investigation started. 0.99

01:27:30.620 And you're trying to do both.

01:27:31.680 You're trying to defend your reputation, defend your livelihood, defend everything, and having

01:27:37.180 to do one of the hardest sports in the world.

01:27:38.660 It was like, get me out of here.

01:27:41.600 When did you realize that you had to tell the truth?

01:27:46.260 Either interviewed George or George went to the grand jury.

01:27:49.540 So fall of 12, basically.

01:27:51.560 It might have been earlier.

01:27:52.400 This is going to sound incredibly naive.

01:27:55.380 I actually believed you guys were not on PEDs at the time.

01:28:01.640 My view was either you all are or you are not.

01:28:04.500 Meaning the GC contenders.

01:28:05.920 I don't necessarily mean everybody in the race.

01:28:07.660 But my view was either all the GC contenders are or they are not.

01:28:11.020 And I truly believed that post-98 that you guys were off.

01:28:16.540 I was absolutely wrong.

01:28:17.920 But the moment I realized how wrong I was was not with Landis.

01:28:21.440 It was actually with Tyler.

01:28:23.380 Landis didn't come across as very believable.

01:28:25.960 Tyler did.

01:28:27.280 And so I've lost track of time.

01:28:29.520 But Tyler's book that he wrote with Dan Coyle, did that come out in like 2011?

01:28:34.120 Does that sound about right?

01:28:35.440 Maybe 2010.

01:28:36.500 Yeah, yeah.

01:28:37.380 It was when I read Tyler's book that I was like, this guy is way too freaking believable.

01:28:42.860 And if he's saying this and he's saying that this is what they were all doing, like, I believe it.

01:28:47.380 He had a different version in his deposition in the postal case.

01:28:50.000 But I don't know what his deposition said.

01:28:52.740 When anybody's deposed and they've written a book, they're just going to read you the book.

01:28:56.140 Yeah.

01:28:56.360 Did you say this?

01:28:57.200 And is this true?

01:28:58.220 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:28:58.500 They just read, they go page by page.

01:29:00.440 Yeah, yeah, I'm sure.

01:29:01.620 If it was in any way sort of contradictory towards him or somebody he cared about, then he would blame Dan.

01:29:09.100 I will never forget.

01:29:09.940 Oh, that's right.

01:29:10.660 Because he had a co-author.

01:29:11.760 He said, that's a Dan-ism.

01:29:13.200 I was like, wait a minute.

01:29:16.120 Anyways.

01:29:16.820 Yeah, it's late 11 or whatever.

01:29:18.120 And you're basically like, I got to come clean.

01:29:20.020 12, 11, 12.

01:29:21.280 Or 12, 12.

01:29:22.060 Yeah.

01:29:22.900 You've talked about your reasons for doing the interview with Oprah, which I think make a lot of sense, right?

01:29:28.140 Which is if you're going to give a deposition, you might as well do it on your terms.

01:29:30.720 Right.

01:29:31.480 Yeah.

01:29:32.300 And even that, I mean, looking back, well, you can look back all you want.

01:29:36.700 I did what I did.

01:29:37.520 I was convinced that it was the right thing to do.

01:29:39.360 The lawyers hated it.

01:29:40.540 Whether it was Oprah or Tom Brokaw, who was my other option, it wasn't going to help.

01:29:48.060 What was that period like when you went?

01:29:49.940 I think you went to Hawaii right after, right?

01:29:51.820 We still traveled a lot just to kind of get away.

01:29:54.880 Did any of the sponsors call you to quietly thank you for what you had done over the past 15 years?

01:30:01.060 No.

01:30:01.260 I know they can't publicly, but did someone at Trek say, hey, Lance, I hope you understand we've got to dump you like a hot potato, but you did turn us into a billion dollar company.

01:30:10.420 No.

01:30:11.340 No sponsor in any one of your relationships ever thanked you for what you'd done?

01:30:16.500 I mean, I think there is a general use Trek as an example.

01:30:20.340 So the answer is no.

01:30:22.080 But if you asked Mike Senyard from Specialized, he would say thank you.

01:30:27.560 All the ships rose.

01:30:28.520 Luke was obviously old enough to know what was going on.

01:30:31.900 Were the twins?

01:30:33.300 Yeah.

01:30:33.700 They were young, but they were, yeah.

01:30:36.420 So what was the discussion like with them?

01:30:39.400 Basically just an open door policy.

01:30:41.340 Certainly if anything comes up at school.

01:30:42.820 But if you ever have any questions about my life and the decisions I've made and you hear something like, we're not going to have one conversation about this.

01:30:50.740 We're going to have as many as you want to have.

01:30:52.640 Like it is just totally open door.

01:30:55.420 And what have they asked you about?

01:30:57.160 Not very much.

01:30:58.520 What are they going to ask?

01:30:59.600 Like they're going to ask questions like you're asking because you'd know the sport so well.

01:31:03.500 And I feel like we stayed, all of us, certainly a lot of credit to Kristen as well.

01:31:09.480 We've stayed very close as a family.

01:31:11.240 When I say family, I mean myself, my kids, Anna and Kristen, and now Anna and I's kids.

01:31:18.280 It is, if you can imagine that Brady Bunch setup, we are a very close family.

01:31:23.140 So after the Oprah interview, which I guess is early 2013, who was the first person you reached out to apologize to?

01:31:31.560 Actually, before the interview was, you know, I reached out because I knew that it would, they would see it.

01:31:36.980 You know, so the Andreas, Lamont, and Kathy and Greg wouldn't take my call.

01:31:42.380 Have they to this day?

01:31:43.740 We did meet up.

01:31:45.220 You met with Greg?

01:31:46.120 And Kathy, yep.

01:31:47.280 How long ago?

01:31:48.140 Oh God, it's been years.

01:31:50.400 How was that meeting?

01:31:51.660 It went better than I thought it would go.

01:31:53.780 I was sincere.

01:31:54.420 I said, but I felt like I needed to say they accepted the apology.

01:31:58.660 What about Emma?

01:31:59.960 Emma and I met up in Florida.

01:32:02.600 Emma's great.

01:32:03.640 Her mission was to try to-

01:32:05.180 To talk about the sport.

01:32:06.200 To fix the sport.

01:32:07.180 Maybe not everybody listening knows who Emma is.

01:32:09.300 Emma was our soignure, was my soignure in 99 and left the team and was a person that I went after.

01:32:17.020 And she got mixed up in this because of the LA Confidential book.

01:32:20.400 She was quoted in it.

01:32:22.020 As you said, it ended up being really about you.

01:32:25.160 But my understanding is the reason she agreed to talk with David Walsh was really to make a broader statement about how corrupt the sport was.

01:32:32.160 I've enjoyed reforming that friendship and I wrote the foreword for her book and she's a cool lady.

01:32:40.280 What about any of your former teammates?

01:32:42.460 Have you reconnected with Tyler?

01:32:45.420 I know you have strong feelings about Floyd.

01:32:48.200 Those are the two names that stick out.

01:32:49.800 And the reality is 95% of that former, what was known as the blue train, we'd still all go.

01:32:57.040 I mean, we'd go all jump back into war together.

01:32:59.120 Like brothers.

01:33:00.400 Floyd and Tyler, they were never our brothers.

01:33:02.960 Yeah, there won't be any future dinners.

01:33:06.240 You know, I remember a while ago, your Twitter bio was different than it is now.

01:33:10.240 Do you remember what it used to say?

01:33:11.340 No, what it'd say.

01:33:12.360 I don't even know what it says now.

01:33:14.080 Today it says like something boring like everybody else's.

01:33:17.120 But it used to say, there's a reason the windshield's bigger than the rear view mirror.

01:33:21.780 Oh, right.

01:33:23.940 Yeah.

01:33:24.880 I'll tell you, I've always found that.

01:33:26.540 I don't know who that quote is attributed to.

01:33:28.680 I'm sure it appears in many formats.

01:33:30.780 But I always found it to be very poignant because it's not saying you should only have a windshield and no rear view mirror.

01:33:37.160 And it's not saying you should have no windshield and only a rear view mirror.

01:33:40.860 It's saying you need both, but one's bigger than the other.

01:33:43.720 But in my own life, I've always felt like I have to have a rear view mirror.

01:33:47.240 I never want to lose sight of my sins because they kind of ground me.

01:33:51.080 Of course.

01:33:51.980 You've had the, both the luxury and the inconvenience of living all of your sins on the world's most public stage.

01:33:59.500 So most of us make all of our mistakes behind closed doors and nobody really gets to see the horrible things we've done.

01:34:06.080 I remember when I hit the one year anniversary of doing something so awful, I couldn't stand my existence for it.

01:34:13.120 And I remember talking to my therapist about it and she said, I actually don't want you to ever forget this.

01:34:18.760 Like, I want you to remember what you did.

01:34:21.760 You have to remember that the monster that did that thing, he's never going to die.

01:34:26.740 He'll sit in the corner.

01:34:28.100 He'll be small, but he's never going to die.

01:34:30.100 If you have the tools in place to keep him in the corner.

01:34:33.160 Right.

01:34:33.760 Are there moments that you look back at?

01:34:35.460 Like, do you look at that SCA deposition in October of 05 and think, I need that video playing over and over again, just quietly?

01:34:44.900 Yeah, it's totally embarrassing. 1.00

01:34:46.780 I mean, a lot of that shit. 0.99

01:34:48.040 And I was forced to rewatch a ton of that. 0.99

01:34:50.760 Not because I wanted to, or I thought it would be a good idea, but legal settings and depositions and trials.

01:34:56.380 And they just hammer you with this. 0.98

01:34:58.320 But it's, yeah, you look at that and you're like, that is a pathetic person. 0.99

01:35:02.740 I ain't never going back there. 0.95

01:35:04.500 Those sort of things is unfortunate and is embarrassing and as tough as they are to watch.

01:35:09.440 For me, those are good.

01:35:11.340 I mean, I don't want to do it every day, but it's like that guy needed to die.

01:35:16.380 And a new guy needed to come around.

01:35:18.420 And that's where you get stuck.

01:35:20.380 You know, you say, I wouldn't change a thing.

01:35:22.600 And all these things that I would say that would, yeah, actually, I mean, you would change things.

01:35:26.860 I mean, I love the spot that I've been able to get to.

01:35:29.120 So you sort of think in your mind, like, well, these were all events that shaped the person sitting here today.

01:35:33.840 But there would have been a better way to go about it.

01:35:36.480 It's funny.

01:35:37.160 I was watching a video of an interview you did a while ago. 0.92

01:35:40.180 And I normally don't read comments on YouTube because they're so incredibly uninteresting and ridiculous.

01:35:45.900 And I don't know why, but for some reason, I read a couple.

01:35:48.440 And I came across one that I thought was so interesting.

01:35:50.640 I actually copied it down.

01:35:51.520 I want to read it to you.

01:35:52.900 So it was an interview.

01:35:54.240 I don't even remember what interview it was. 0.83

01:35:55.780 But not surprisingly, a lot of the comments were like, this guy's a horrible human being. 1.00

01:36:00.640 Like, what a ridiculous person. 1.00

01:36:02.520 Oh, I know. 1.00

01:36:02.960 It must have been the interview where you said, and you tried to offer a nuanced explanation for why you wish you didn't have to hurt people.

01:36:11.120 But you also wouldn't have done it different in the sense that you needed to learn the lessons you learned.

01:36:15.880 Do you remember this interview?

01:36:16.740 This thing was on NBC.

01:36:17.800 These were all the ones that.

01:36:19.020 So not surprisingly, every commenter is like ripping you apart.

01:36:22.960 Of course.

01:36:23.500 And this one guy writes something.

01:36:25.000 I'm just going to read to you verbatim.

01:36:26.360 I was really moved by it.

01:36:27.740 He says, I was not a good person, and it took losing everything to realize it.

01:36:32.300 I'm not yet at the point where I would not change a thing.

01:36:35.860 But I do get the, I can't change a thing, so it's useless to feel as much regret and shame as I do.

01:36:42.580 I really believe him when he says that he values the lessons he learned, because I do too.

01:36:47.780 I might not be a good person yet.

01:36:50.060 I'm learning.

01:36:51.040 But I'm no longer a bad one.

01:36:53.120 Yeah.

01:36:53.560 Those are few and far between.

01:36:56.980 I mean, it takes a lot of, I mean, I don't read comments.

01:36:59.820 I used to read comments, but I don't.

01:37:01.640 Something about the last line of this.

01:37:03.220 I might not be a good person yet, but I'm no longer a bad one.

01:37:06.220 I mean, I remember feeling like when I went through that transition of, okay, like you're not the worst human in the world.

01:37:13.200 You're not perfect and you're never going to be.

01:37:14.740 But I still don't understand a couple of things about the sport.

01:37:18.020 We could explain all day long why you ended up where you ended up.

01:37:21.440 Once it became clear how widespread EPO use was in the Peloton and blood transfusing and all that stuff, it became very difficult to say, well, Lance is a bad guy because he did these performance enhancing drugs because to a first order, you did them no more or no less than anybody else.

01:37:35.560 So then it turned into, well, he treated people so badly and that's why Lance is the worst person.

01:37:41.080 But that doesn't explain to me why Ivan Basso did everything that Pantani did, is loved, and Pantani was completely vilified and, I mean, effectively killed himself.

01:37:54.480 It doesn't explain why, well, pick your favorite German rider who's loved and Ulrich was rejected.

01:38:02.200 Why Vaters is loved and Tyler gets rejected or whomever, right?

01:38:09.400 So if we're just taking Lance out of it for a moment, right, because you're radioactive, what explains that difference between those other guys?

01:38:16.600 Jan wasn't beating anybody up.

01:38:18.320 Pantani wasn't screaming at anybody.

01:38:20.520 And same in Spain with Jimenez.

01:38:22.240 You have a handful of examples here with characters who had problems so they could not handle, you know, this is, and I speak, I've talked about this before, but looking at the whole situation, nothing infuriates me more than that.

01:38:35.840 It has more to do with society and the press and the organizers and the politicians in the sport, how they will, and Jan Ulrich is not welcome at the start of the tour. 0.99

01:38:46.440 I mean, while Eric Zabel's up there shaking hands with the guy in the yellow chair, you know, it's like, wait a minute, this is fucking stupid. 0.99

01:38:53.260 I don't understand. 1.00

01:38:54.040 Do you have any idea why that hypocrisy exists?

01:38:57.020 The ones who rose the highest, I mean, Pantani was the biggest athlete in Italy at the time.

01:39:04.200 Soccer, whatever sport, F1, Pantani was the biggest athlete in Italy.

01:39:09.280 Jan was the biggest athlete in Germany.

01:39:11.220 I was the biggest athlete here.

01:39:12.920 On and on.

01:39:13.620 And so, you know, maybe it has to do with those heights and the only place you can end up is the complete opposite, like the bottom of the pool.

01:39:21.100 Well, we're not talking about me, again, with these stories, I mean, Pantani dead, Jimenez dead, Vandenbroek dead, Belgium, Gaumont dead in France.

01:39:30.200 I mean, all guys that were at the top of the game and couldn't handle, with their own demons, they couldn't handle that fall from grace.

01:39:38.020 So they turned to other things.

01:39:39.980 But nobody reached out.

01:39:41.660 In many ways, the press just sort of chased that story.

01:39:44.060 I mean, look at Vandenbroek.

01:39:45.420 I mean, Frank Vandenbroek was arguably one of the most talented of all time.

01:39:48.320 He was the next Merckx.

01:39:49.260 He was the next da-da-da-da-da. 1.00

01:39:51.180 And the press just let it go and just hammered this guy.

01:39:54.580 And he died in a hotel room in Senegal.

01:39:56.940 Pantani dies at a dirty hotel room in Milan. 1.00

01:39:59.820 Fucking Jan almost dies. 1.00

01:40:01.220 I mean, it's like. 1.00

01:40:01.920 When did you realize Jan was in trouble?

01:40:03.900 I remember you and I talking about this in the summer of 18.

01:40:06.600 You sent me a picture, and I'll never forget it.

01:40:09.120 I was like, that can't be Jan.

01:40:11.200 Well, Jan has always liked to have fun.

01:40:13.820 Yeah, but this didn't look like having fun.

01:40:15.120 No, no, no.

01:40:15.840 The other interesting thing is one of Jan's closest lieutenants,

01:40:18.720 when we were competing head-to-head, was Andreas Clodin.

01:40:21.500 Yes.

01:40:22.060 Who ended up being on Astana with us and Radio Shack.

01:40:24.980 And so I ended up getting to know Clodin and really, really getting to love him.

01:40:29.580 So I had heard that a lot of these guys, so Clodin, Zabel, Danilo Hondo,

01:40:34.080 they had tried to reach out to him.

01:40:36.240 And when it was in the press, he got in a fight with his neighbor.

01:40:39.060 Like, these are no secrets. 1.00

01:40:40.160 Like, this shit was out there. 0.99

01:40:42.420 He turned everybody away. 1.00

01:40:44.580 And not just turned them away, but just flat out erased them from his life

01:40:48.140 because he didn't want to hear it.

01:40:49.740 But he had two guys, Frank and Mike Baldinger.

01:40:52.960 So they're German brothers from where he's from.

01:40:56.080 They're normal guys.

01:40:57.580 Like, they're not professional cyclists.

01:40:59.020 They're not rich.

01:40:59.660 They're not famous.

01:41:00.280 They're just regular dudes.

01:41:01.680 They're good dudes.

01:41:02.800 They contacted me, and they said,

01:41:04.460 he's told everybody else to just leave him alone.

01:41:06.920 And then he's turned on.

01:41:08.000 They said, you're our last call.

01:41:10.400 And I didn't know these guys.

01:41:12.580 And so that's when I made the trip to Switzerland,

01:41:15.600 a place, and it was a mess.

01:41:19.320 Yeah, what was it like to see him like that?

01:41:21.880 Unrecognizable.

01:41:22.900 He was like an alien.

01:41:24.000 Had entered his body. 1.00

01:41:25.180 I've seen some crazy shit. 1.00

01:41:26.980 I have never seen anything like this. 0.99

01:41:29.060 But, you know, Jan, two years sober.

01:41:31.400 He's got his kids back in his life.

01:41:33.300 He's on the bike. 0.99

01:41:34.860 He's fucking, I fucking love that guy. 0.99

01:41:38.000 It is amazing to me how our society, 0.99

01:41:41.180 I can't understand it,

01:41:42.360 why we sometimes lift people up

01:41:45.000 and then find such joy in watching them crash.

01:41:48.620 Yeah.

01:41:49.240 We're not going to figure that out.

01:41:51.000 I get very frustrated and straight up mad

01:41:53.500 when I see the differences between

01:41:56.020 Ulrich and Zabel and Pantani and Basso

01:41:58.700 and on and on and on.

01:41:59.960 And guys that were just not equipped

01:42:02.100 to handle that downfall.

01:42:04.140 That was the one, man,

01:42:05.480 that was the one thing I said to myself.

01:42:07.100 I said, just whatever you do,

01:42:09.020 just do not.

01:42:10.640 I mean, you can go have fun

01:42:11.800 and do some crazies, 0.66

01:42:12.720 but don't you ever lose contact

01:42:15.500 with your health, your wellness,

01:42:17.860 your fitness, your family.

01:42:19.660 Like, don't ever lose sight of that.

01:42:21.580 Did you go through a period in 2013

01:42:23.940 where you were pretty reclusive?

01:42:27.340 And so this is meaning right after

01:42:28.980 kind of the whole confession.

01:42:30.700 I'm trying to think,

01:42:31.600 like, when did you start your podcast?

01:42:33.160 In 16, 17?

01:42:35.100 I'd have to go back and look.

01:42:36.320 It's been, uh...

01:42:37.420 Like, there was a period of time

01:42:38.720 when you were really off the radar.

01:42:40.300 Well, yeah.

01:42:40.680 I mean, you had no choice.

01:42:44.140 Radar didn't pick you up either.

01:42:45.440 I mean, there was nothing to do.

01:42:47.180 What was it like

01:42:47.780 when you walked into a restaurant?

01:42:49.220 I mean, you've told one story

01:42:50.680 a number of times

01:42:51.580 about walking across the street

01:42:53.520 and a bunch of people in a bar stream.

01:42:54.720 Yeah, but that was once.

01:42:55.220 But what was the normal reaction like?

01:42:57.880 Perfectly fine.

01:42:58.700 Indifference?

01:42:59.480 Yeah.

01:43:00.080 That's why I don't read comments

01:43:01.000 because I walk through my day.

01:43:02.220 You know, I see guys on the golf course.

01:43:03.720 I see people on bike rides.

01:43:04.840 I see people in restaurants.

01:43:06.220 I go to meetings.

01:43:07.280 That is not an accurate snapshot

01:43:09.260 of what my life is like at all.

01:43:12.900 Even in 13.

01:43:14.360 Because remember,

01:43:14.900 the other thing that was going on

01:43:15.880 at that point in time

01:43:16.640 is the foundation is crumbling.

01:43:19.240 Right.

01:43:19.420 And you're getting kicked out.

01:43:20.780 Yep.

01:43:21.580 You've told me before

01:43:22.340 that that hurt as much as anything else.

01:43:24.700 It was surreal.

01:43:26.680 And what did the people

01:43:27.400 at the foundation tell you unofficially?

01:43:29.280 Not the board,

01:43:30.040 but the people who worked there,

01:43:31.240 the people who were doing

01:43:31.900 the actual heavy lifting.

01:43:33.360 Now, those folks,

01:43:34.280 I have a ton of regret about

01:43:36.780 because they were doing the Lord's work

01:43:38.600 and they were not privy.

01:43:40.840 Yeah, they weren't decision makers.

01:43:42.240 Yeah.

01:43:42.540 And they believed the dream.

01:43:44.660 They believed the story.

01:43:45.700 And as a byproduct of that,

01:43:48.620 they in many ways felt complicit in the scheme.

01:43:53.100 That's tough for me to hear

01:43:55.380 and I'll spend the rest of my days

01:43:57.000 trying to make that okay for them.

01:43:59.560 And I wasn't part of these discussions,

01:44:01.100 so I don't know what the board room discussions were like

01:44:04.940 or which consultants were hired

01:44:07.540 or I don't know how it all went down.

01:44:09.080 And I just knew it was the wrong thing.

01:44:13.120 I knew that time out, yes, space,

01:44:17.120 but some agreement here that we will both reemerge.

01:44:21.240 That was the right thing to do.

01:44:23.420 I mean, and I don't need somebody to sit here

01:44:25.120 and say, well, you're right.

01:44:26.180 But if I look at where Livestrong

01:44:29.580 has ultimately ended up,

01:44:31.100 if I look at my audience now,

01:44:33.440 well, they're very different.

01:44:35.560 And one of them is not doing very well

01:44:38.480 and the other one's back, so to speak.

01:44:40.920 What interaction do you have these days

01:44:42.180 with a cancer community?

01:44:43.440 Very little, just one-on-one.

01:44:45.480 And by the way, that's fine.

01:44:46.640 I don't need to be asked to speak at a gala

01:44:48.520 or get some award or all the stuff I did in the past.

01:44:51.260 Somebody's got a friend that's just been diagnosed

01:44:53.400 and hey, Lance, can you reach out to him?

01:44:55.500 100%, let's go.

01:44:56.740 Right now, that's enough for me.

01:44:59.040 I don't know if you've been asked this question before.

01:45:00.660 I'm sure you have.

01:45:02.200 And so I apologize in advance,

01:45:03.440 but when the story's done,

01:45:05.240 what do you think your legacy is going to be?

01:45:06.980 Too early to say.

01:45:08.360 Too early.

01:45:09.120 I know what it would have said in January of 2013,

01:45:11.640 but I don't like to brag about myself, 0.97

01:45:14.660 but I got to say I'm really fucking proud. 0.77

01:45:16.960 What are you most proud of? 0.98

01:45:18.600 I'm proud of the fact that I didn't quit.

01:45:22.080 Which time?

01:45:22.760 Because you had a number of times to quit.

01:45:24.080 Well, just through this whole thing

01:45:25.780 that I was able to keep it together

01:45:27.920 without really any support.

01:45:30.940 And thank God we live in 2021, 20-whatever,

01:45:34.040 where you can reinvent yourself on your own.

01:45:36.800 You don't need network television.

01:45:38.500 You don't need the New York Times.

01:45:40.400 You don't need any of that.

01:45:41.860 What we're doing right here, right now,

01:45:43.540 you did this on your own.

01:45:44.500 You bought the cameras.

01:45:45.320 You got the mics.

01:45:46.380 You're asking the questions.

01:45:47.500 You're the smart guy.

01:45:48.820 Millions of people are listening.

01:45:50.100 You did that on your own.

01:45:51.160 Couldn't have done that 10 years ago, 20 years ago.

01:45:53.560 I've chosen to go that path,

01:45:55.260 and I'm proud of that.

01:45:56.700 So who knows what, to your original question,

01:45:59.140 like, I'm 50 years old.

01:46:00.980 I'll live another 40 or 50 years.

01:46:03.980 There's a lot left to be told.

01:46:05.860 Yeah, I was going to say,

01:46:06.540 that's the amazing part here, right?

01:46:08.000 I don't need any more puff pieces in my life.

01:46:11.240 Like, I'm really beholden to a few things.

01:46:13.700 One, my family.

01:46:15.260 So that's my first checkpoint,

01:46:17.560 and that's amazing.

01:46:19.560 I really feel beholden and loyal

01:46:22.100 to the audience of our podcasts.

01:46:24.220 And then as a byproduct of the success of the podcast,

01:46:27.580 the fund, the LP base,

01:46:29.240 the people that have entrusted me,

01:46:31.580 the guy that the whole world thought

01:46:33.160 could never be trusted again,

01:46:34.660 have trusted me with their hard-earned money.

01:46:36.920 I'm beholden to them.

01:46:38.400 And that's all I care about.

01:46:39.980 I don't need to be on the cover of Forbes.

01:46:41.900 I'm totally cool to keep that private.

01:46:44.220 Also, at the end of the day,

01:46:45.500 it is going to contain a lot of the rearview mirror.

01:46:49.920 But I'm okay with that.

01:46:51.020 That's the way society is.

01:46:52.300 That's the way legacies are.

01:46:54.400 Mine especially.

01:46:55.340 It will mostly be that.

01:46:57.520 If you can go back in time to 15-year-old Lance.

01:47:01.400 Oh, God.

01:47:03.000 You've got a week with him.

01:47:04.460 What kind of lessons would you try to impart on him?

01:47:06.980 There would have been a lot.

01:47:08.200 Well, I was a pro athlete,

01:47:09.240 and it was when my mom kicked out Terry Armstrong.

01:47:12.140 Okay, so I didn't know that was 15.

01:47:13.640 Yeah, that was 15.

01:47:14.680 So that was the point in time

01:47:16.120 where it was her and I against the world. 1.00

01:47:19.120 Fuck everybody else. 1.00

01:47:20.180 We're going to get these people like he's gone. 1.00

01:47:22.900 We're together.

01:47:24.320 Let's go.

01:47:25.400 So the chip on your shoulder,

01:47:27.340 which I'm guessing exists subconsciously,

01:47:30.660 now became pretty conscious.

01:47:32.120 Yeah, absolutely.

01:47:34.160 And that chip on your shoulder did a lot of good for you

01:47:37.100 and obviously a lot of bad for you.

01:47:38.780 Yeah.

01:47:38.900 So do you think that, again, in this thought experiment,

01:47:43.400 if you had a week to coach that kid,

01:47:46.060 could you have figured out a way to extract the value

01:47:49.700 from that complex and soften some of the damage

01:47:54.020 that it was going to ultimately cause you

01:47:55.980 via the damage it would cause to others?

01:47:59.180 Yeah.

01:47:59.780 Nobody, I mean, 15-year-olds don't realize that,

01:48:01.780 but the amount of trauma that I had already had in my life,

01:48:05.340 which just got actually worse and worse and worse.

01:48:08.480 I mean, cancer was hugely traumatic

01:48:10.420 and then the fall was traumatic.

01:48:12.480 I'm like, there's a lot to unpack there.

01:48:14.420 Never meeting your father and having this way around.

01:48:17.140 It was just,

01:48:18.740 and never having that figure in your life

01:48:21.900 and the figure that was there was wildly defective.

01:48:27.120 It would have been in and around that.

01:48:29.320 If somebody would have come up to me when I was 15 and said, 0.99

01:48:31.440 you know, I feel like you've had some crazy shit 1.00

01:48:33.660 in your 15 years. 0.99

01:48:34.540 You should just do a little bit once a month.

01:48:36.740 I would have said, you know what? 1.00

01:48:37.840 Why don't you go fuck yourself? 1.00

01:48:39.120 I ain't doing therapy for nothing. 1.00

01:48:41.040 Like I embrace that stuff now,

01:48:42.800 but there would have been a lot of work to do even then.

01:48:46.000 What could you have told him though?

01:48:46.960 Like, again, if he's not willing to go to therapy,

01:48:48.660 which I can understand,

01:48:49.720 that's a pretty hard sell to a really,

01:48:51.600 really cocky 15-year-old.

01:48:53.520 What else can you tell him?

01:48:54.540 Or was he too far gone at that point?

01:48:56.160 One of the things I've learned about myself over time

01:48:58.920 is that so many of the character traits

01:49:01.500 that were both positive and negative,

01:49:03.300 and they tend to cluster

01:49:04.400 like right on top of each other, right?

01:49:06.060 It's like two genes that sit right next to each other

01:49:08.380 in the chromosome, one good, one bad.

01:49:10.160 A lot of those traits come about

01:49:11.900 long before we're consciously aware of what led to them.

01:49:15.360 I think your case is really obvious sometimes.

01:49:17.680 Like some of those traumas are so obvious.

01:49:20.080 The dad, the stepdad, the growing up without this.

01:49:24.240 And then, of course, that says nothing about cancer,

01:49:26.780 which do you feel you've gone back

01:49:29.440 and unpacked that PTSD through all of those layers now

01:49:32.980 as an adult?

01:49:34.240 Well, I don't know that any of us can ever unpack it all.

01:49:37.620 In the last year, I've certainly done more unpacking

01:49:42.040 than in the previous 49.

01:49:44.060 Way more.

01:49:45.180 I should have started that process a lot earlier.

01:49:48.500 Going back to the question though,

01:49:49.680 on the, you know, I was just, even then at 15,

01:49:52.900 I drove a fast car and every green light was a competition

01:49:55.800 and everything was like, slow down, kid.

01:49:59.860 Like it was just, everything was a fight,

01:50:02.540 not even a competition.

01:50:03.520 It was a fight.

01:50:04.700 But you said it.

01:50:05.900 I mean, it would have been impossible to get,

01:50:07.460 just like that 15-year-old, the 25-year-old,

01:50:09.420 the 35-year-old, even the 45-year-old,

01:50:11.460 you would not have gotten through.

01:50:13.140 I think that's something that very few people can understand.

01:50:15.420 I can relate to it, Lance, because I've had my own total,

01:50:19.200 total destruction.

01:50:20.840 I've played the game in my head a hundred times.

01:50:23.840 God, I just wish I could take that all back.

01:50:26.240 I wish I could undo all of that stuff.

01:50:29.640 But I realize if I were to undo all of that stuff,

01:50:32.820 I wouldn't have fallen down.

01:50:34.940 And if I didn't fall down and lose it all.

01:50:37.660 Right.

01:50:37.860 But this is when you say, well, I wouldn't change a thing

01:50:40.360 because these series of events happened and boom,

01:50:44.200 it caused, whether it's deep work or introspection

01:50:48.120 or realignment, whatever you want to call it,

01:50:51.040 then that wouldn't have happened.

01:50:52.160 That's just hard.

01:50:53.040 That's a hard answer.

01:50:53.960 I mean, that answer has never worked for me,

01:50:56.260 but because people, oh, but what?

01:50:58.000 But they analyze so much of the stuff.

01:51:00.360 But I mean, in many ways, it's true.

01:51:02.760 So how do you keep fit these days?

01:51:04.360 I mean, you talked about swimming.

01:51:05.520 Is that the mainstay of your training?

01:51:06.800 Now we're in the summer.

01:51:07.980 The Aspen is completely thawed out.

01:51:09.600 The mountain bike trails are open.

01:51:11.620 What's your fastest time at Mount Evans?

01:51:13.400 I've only done Mount Evans once.

01:51:15.460 I did it in 1990.

01:51:16.920 That's at your doorstep.

01:51:18.100 No, no, that's not that close.

01:51:19.400 It's close to Aspen, isn't it?

01:51:20.380 It's like a couple hours away.

01:51:21.500 Well, that's not close.

01:51:22.720 I don't get in a car to ride my bike.

01:51:25.340 That's kind of a rule.

01:51:26.460 All right.

01:51:26.620 What was your fastest time at Palomar?

01:51:28.500 Don't know.

01:51:29.120 That was a long time ago.

01:51:30.960 Do you care anymore?

01:51:32.180 Do you still care how fast you can ride up the mountain?

01:51:33.920 No, I find myself being happier and happier just riding.

01:51:39.440 Do you use a power meter still?

01:51:40.440 Nope. 1.00

01:51:40.940 No heart rate, no power meter, none of that bullshit. 0.99

01:51:43.400 Do you have any idea what you would ride up Madone in today? 0.99

01:51:45.960 How many watts you could average if we stuck a power meter on you?

01:51:48.620 I have no idea.

01:51:49.920 Like 350?

01:51:51.720 No, I doubt I could do that.

01:51:53.880 I bet you could.

01:51:55.200 If you give me a week or two to train, I could, I don't know.

01:51:57.780 I find myself just ride easier as opposed to harder.

01:52:01.300 Do you enjoy a group ride or do you still enjoy just kind of going out on your own, doing a four hour ride?

01:52:05.420 No, I like it.

01:52:05.840 I like being all alone.

01:52:07.620 How much on a mountain bike versus road bike?

01:52:09.300 Mostly mountain bike.

01:52:10.640 Just because of the risk of cars?

01:52:12.120 Cars.

01:52:12.360 I like staying away.

01:52:13.000 And it's where we live.

01:52:14.500 You get out in the mountains on a mountain bike all by yourself.

01:52:17.500 Come on.

01:52:18.400 You running much?

01:52:19.680 I haven't run.

01:52:21.040 I keep getting hurt running.

01:52:22.520 I think I'm too old to run.

01:52:24.000 If I did yoga three days a week or was serious about stretching and pliability and things that I should be thinking about at 50, I could run. 0.99

01:52:31.140 But my dumb ass is just like, put the shoes on, don't stretch a bit, let's go. 0.99

01:52:37.700 That doesn't work when you're 50. 1.00

01:52:39.880 And what's the tightest interval you'd swim 10 100s on?

01:52:43.720 What would be your touch and go interval for 10 100s?

01:52:46.380 With sea level?

01:52:47.280 Like if I went right now?

01:52:48.340 Yeah.

01:52:48.540 Would you be 105 touch and go?

01:52:50.120 No, I couldn't do that right now.

01:52:51.940 110?

01:52:52.440 110.

01:52:53.200 I'd be really touching and going at the end.

01:52:56.840 So 115, you could bring him in at 110.

01:52:58.780 No problem.

01:52:59.120 Yeah.

01:52:59.280 So you're still a fit guy.

01:53:01.420 I'm fitter than most 50-year-olds.

01:53:03.480 What's the biggest liability to your fitness?

01:53:05.840 What's your biggest vice?

01:53:06.900 Food, alcohol?

01:53:08.440 What gets in the way of...

01:53:10.400 Because what do you weigh right now?

01:53:11.820 180.

01:53:12.680 Okay.

01:53:13.060 So you're 15 pounds above your tour weight, which is actually not a lot given most retired cyclists.

01:53:19.380 So is that a struggle to maintain your weight?

01:53:22.080 No.

01:53:22.460 I seem to have a balance between consumption, whether you're consuming food or alcohol or whatever.

01:53:29.280 That's consumption.

01:53:30.740 I have to exercise.

01:53:32.520 Not because I want to stay a certain weight or I want to look a certain...

01:53:35.420 Yeah, yeah.

01:53:35.440 It's just you need it for your mental health.

01:53:35.940 It is my own sanity.

01:53:37.380 Like it's the only reason.

01:53:38.880 That's interesting, by the way, isn't it?

01:53:40.080 There are a lot of former pro athletes that I know who once it's no longer their job,

01:53:46.360 they just do not want to do it anymore.

01:53:48.880 That kid.

01:53:49.740 I will ride for as long as this body will allow it to ride.

01:53:53.640 Absolutely.

01:53:54.000 Absolutely.

01:53:55.960 Well, man, it's been great sitting down.

01:53:58.320 Yeah.

01:53:59.040 Been a long time coming.

01:54:00.220 I know.

01:54:00.920 And I've got an amazing salmon and okra dish waiting for you.

01:54:04.780 Oh, God.

01:54:05.320 You got to tell that story right quick.

01:54:06.840 You can't tease them out with that.

01:54:08.740 This is...

01:54:09.360 I'll tell the story.

01:54:10.140 You tell the story.

01:54:10.680 I'll tell the story.

01:54:10.920 So there's...

01:54:11.660 And people that...

01:54:12.500 Like Anna, who cooks for me all the time, she knows that I just don't like salmon.

01:54:16.080 And like growing up, we would eat okra and I just don't like okra.

01:54:19.380 So I come over.

01:54:20.120 This has been...

01:54:20.980 I don't know.

01:54:21.260 Six, seven months ago.

01:54:22.740 And I walk in.

01:54:23.480 I'm like, that smells like salmon.

01:54:27.540 I'm like, hey, what's for dinner, Peter?

01:54:29.080 He's like, oh, I got some grilling this amazing salmon.

01:54:31.700 I was like, oh.

01:54:32.160 I was on the Traeger, my special marinade.

01:54:34.440 I was like, oh, okay.

01:54:36.400 And then I was like, what are we having with it?

01:54:38.120 And you're like, oh, I got some fresh okra.

01:54:41.520 And I was like, this is not...

01:54:43.260 Couldn't make this up.

01:54:43.880 This isn't happening. 1.00

01:54:44.900 This is a fucking joke. 1.00

01:54:46.080 Like, I'm getting punked. 0.99

01:54:47.180 It's like Anna called me to tell me this before.

01:54:49.780 And I was like sitting there just like getting to the meal.

01:54:52.660 And we had a wonderful time.

01:54:54.300 And then I don't know why I was...

01:54:56.060 But when I was stepping out, I was like, I was like, I have to be honest with you guys.

01:54:59.040 Like, there are two things in this world that I just really can't stand to eat.

01:55:03.460 Salmon and okra.

01:55:04.940 But you had a brave face, man.

01:55:06.220 I wouldn't have known.

01:55:07.040 You put it down.

01:55:07.740 As far as salmon and okra go, I hope it was good salmon and good okra, so.

01:55:13.480 I had the Japanese whiskey too.

01:55:15.580 Ah.

01:55:16.440 That definitely lubricated it.

01:55:19.020 All right, my friend.

01:55:19.900 Oh, man. 1.00

01:55:20.640 You ready to go get your butt kicked? 1.00

01:55:22.020 In the sim? 1.00

01:55:22.640 Yeah. 0.99

01:55:23.440 Well, you don't know that I'm going to get my butt kicked. 0.99

01:55:25.900 So it's not fair for you to say that. 0.99

01:55:27.300 But I'm ready to go see what happens.

01:55:29.420 Okay.

01:55:29.780 Very well.

01:55:31.740 I can drive.

01:55:32.660 I'm sure you can, but I just think I'm excited to see this.

01:55:37.220 Thank you for listening to this week's episode of The Drive.

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The Peter Attia Drive - October 04, 2021

#178 - Lance Armstrong： The rise, fall, and growth of a cycling legend

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