The Peter Attia Drive - #318 ‒ Cycling phenom and Tour de France champion Tadej Pogačar reveals his training strategies, on-bike nutrition, and future aspirations

00:00:00.000 Hey, everyone. Welcome to the Drive podcast. I'm your host, Peter Atiyah. This podcast,

00:00:16.540 my website, and my weekly newsletter all focus on the goal of translating the science of longevity

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00:00:53.200 of a subscription. If you want to learn more about the benefits of our premium membership,

00:00:58.020 head over to peteratiyahmd.com forward slash subscribe. My guest this week is Tadej Pogacar,

00:01:06.880 a professional cyclist and three-time winner of the Tour de France in 2020, 2021, and most recently,

00:01:13.260 2024. For those who may not know his story, Tadej, who today is just 26 years old, has already been

00:01:19.340 compared to the most legendary all-round cyclist of all time, Eddie Merckx. He's generally referred

00:01:25.220 to now as the second coming of Merckx, whose nickname was the cannibal for the manner in which

00:01:30.560 he devoured the competition. Tadej was a very successful junior rider, winning some of the

00:01:35.880 most prominent races prior to his breakthrough year in 2019. When he signed on with the UAE team,

00:01:42.900 he won the Tour of California that year and won three stages of the Vuelta a España,

00:01:46.940 one of the three Grand Tours en route to a overall third place finish, as well as the young rider

00:01:52.720 title. And then, of course, in 2020, he was the unexpected winner of the Tour de France. This is

00:01:59.140 something we will discuss in detail in this podcast. Now, since that time, Tadej has basically rewritten

00:02:05.400 the record books. He's done things that people generally have thought, frankly, impossible in the

00:02:10.220 modern era of cycling, largely because of the specialization of the sport today. Typically,

00:02:15.840 cyclists will focus on one type of race. And yet, Tadej has demonstrated an appetite to basically

00:02:22.660 conquer everything he does. That means he's competing not just in Grand Tours and shorter

00:02:28.300 stage races, but also some of the most grueling one-day races of all time. In fact, there are five

00:02:35.040 such races. He has already won three of them. And of course, we discuss his aspirations around the

00:02:41.520 others. 2024 was kind of a momentous year. He first won the Giro d'Italia and the Tour de France,

00:02:48.180 a double feat that has not been accomplished for nearly 30 years. And he set a record-winning 12

00:02:55.160 stages across both of these. He is currently the number one ranked cyclist in the world,

00:03:01.260 a record that he's held for about 170 weeks and counting. And he is going to attempt in a week

00:03:07.700 to do something that, again, many people thought would never be possible in the modern era of

00:03:13.620 cycling, which is to complete something known as the Triple Crown, which is winning the Giro,

00:03:18.840 the Tour, which he's already done, and then managing to win the World Championship road race.

00:03:24.300 I have wanted to interview Tadej for some time. And of course, the opportunity of him racing at the

00:03:29.220 GP Montreal, just two weeks out from the World Championship, was remarkable and fortuitous. So I

00:03:33.780 was very grateful to have his time. In this conversation, we talk about his remarkable 2020

00:03:40.900 season where he took the world by storm and won the Tour de France in one of the most dramatic

00:03:46.660 finishes that race has ever seen. We talk about the highs and lows of his career since that time.

00:03:51.900 We talk about how he trains, how nutrition has evolved on the bike, and why that allows cyclists

00:03:58.220 today to do things that were previously thought impossible. This is a bit of an interesting

00:04:03.480 podcast if you are not a cyclist, because some of the things that he talks about are simply difficult

00:04:08.300 to wrap your mind around. But hopefully my reaction to those things, for example, his power numbers,

00:04:15.060 will give you a sense of the fact that I'm really talking to one of the most fit human beings on the

00:04:21.800 planet at this moment. So without further delay, I hope you enjoy my conversation with Tadej Pogacar.

00:04:34.100 Tadej, thank you so much for making time. Obviously, you just raced yesterday, you've got a race

00:04:38.680 tomorrow, and we're two weeks out from the World Championship. So to give us any time is amazing.

00:04:43.460 Thank you.

00:04:44.020 No, thanks for having me.

00:04:45.600 A lot of people listening will know everything about you as I do, or they're super fans. But

00:04:50.220 there's also probably a number of people listening who might not appreciate the magnitude of what

00:04:53.760 you've accomplished in a very short period of time. I learned about you in 2019 as the most

00:04:58.940 promising young cyclist that was coming up, but I don't think many people, probably myself included,

00:05:04.280 expected what happened in 2020 at the Tour de France. What were your expectations going into the

00:05:08.700 tour that year?

00:05:09.800 I was not expecting at all to win in 2020. It was COVID year. We had pretty good trainings,

00:05:16.340 not too many races, so not too much to prove no. In 2019 was a breakthrough year for me,

00:05:23.060 but then 2020 came and it was like a long period, doing nothing, just training. We went to the tour

00:05:30.540 with Fabio Aro and me as two leaders. Yeah, it turns out in the end, I was fighting for podium place,

00:05:36.840 for second place in the last week. I was really happy with that. And the final time trial came and

00:05:42.520 it all turned the table around and yeah, I won the tour. It was unbelievable. I think

00:05:48.020 still a lot of people don't believe it happened. So yeah.

00:05:51.740 Well, obviously people at the time of that final time trial said, we haven't seen a race like this

00:05:56.520 since Le Monde and Laurent Fignon in, I think it was 89 when he had that come behind. But what stage

00:06:02.260 in 2020 did you realize, I'm going to be on the podium?

00:06:04.700 On the stage called a loss, I think I was sure I'm going to be second because this was the queen 0.87

00:06:10.440 stage and I come behind Roglic just 15 seconds. Lopez win that stage on high mountain. So yeah,

00:06:18.580 that was the day I knew that this is it now. But I also think Roglic thought that day that he's

00:06:25.020 going to win. So yeah, you never know.

00:06:27.600 Yeah. So going into that last time trial, what was your team telling you in the radio at the time

00:06:31.720 checks or even before the time checks in terms of your delta per Roglic on a kilometer basis?

00:06:36.880 Roglic was starting behind me and yeah, the time checks were like, I think two time checks on the

00:06:42.720 flat before the final climb. I got the times. I don't know who was leading the time on the flat

00:06:48.840 section. I got that time and how much I think I was even behind. Then when the climb came,

00:06:54.700 there were so many people. I did not hear a word on in the radio. I just went, we thought I would go

00:07:00.540 and I just went full gas to the top.

00:07:03.160 Did you feel anything different that day? I mean, did it feel like better than some of the

00:07:06.860 other stages or was it simply a matter of he had deteriorated more than you across 20 days?

00:07:12.780 Because it was the last hard stage. The next day is just Sean's Elysee just rolled through.

00:07:18.140 It's still hard race, but yeah, if everything goes normal, your GC stays the same. Yeah, it was

00:07:25.000 okay. Final time trial. I just need to be relaxed. Second place, white jersey. They were preparing

00:07:30.500 white bike for me for next day for ceremony and it was cool. It was dream.

00:07:34.260 You didn't feel the pressure.

00:07:35.280 I didn't feel nothing. No, we were really chilled out. I knew the parkour's really well because I did

00:07:40.180 recon before with Alan Piper and Michael Berg. We did a lot of work on that. And when the day came,

00:07:46.300 yeah, I was just mad. There was, everybody was happy around and there was no tension, no stress,

00:07:51.580 nothing. And we just roll with it. And then it was one of the best days I ever had.

00:07:56.660 Yeah. It's a little hard to believe. Do you remember what your average power was over that

00:08:00.700 time trial?

00:08:01.480 Yeah. On the flat, I had a power meter and a unit. And then on the climb, I had nothing because

00:08:07.200 I wanted to have a 6.8 kilograms bike. So as light as possible by regulations. On the flat,

00:08:16.140 I went, I think, 380 to 390. So nothing crazy on the flat, but I guess I was just going fast enough

00:08:23.080 to be in that range. What was your weight by that point of the tour? Were you 60 kilos?

00:08:28.980 I think that year, in 2020, I was, yeah, like 66 even, I think.

00:08:34.920 Really?

00:08:35.260 Yeah.

00:08:35.940 What did you weigh this year?

00:08:37.300 I come to the tour with 64 and a half and then 65 and 65 and a half, then jumping from around 65

00:08:45.340 through all the tour. So 21 is another amazing year. And in 22 and 23, you have great race,

00:08:53.360 but a couple of stages where it goes wrong. In 22, I guess the first stage where it was a struggle,

00:09:00.780 was it 16?

00:09:01.800 Yeah.

00:09:02.080 I called the ground on, we went Telegraph, Galiby down, Brianzon, almost to Brianzon.

00:09:08.020 And nonstop attacking.

00:09:09.680 Yeah.

00:09:09.860 More attacking, constant, constant, constant.

00:09:11.780 Yeah. Where I made my mistake. I mean, yeah, shouldn't follow Roglic immediately there

00:09:17.880 on the Telegraph. He tech already on Telegraph. I think, yeah, who was, it was Tijbenu and then

00:09:24.680 Laporte with him on the downhill and they just flew down. And when we start the Galiby, they

00:09:31.260 just go one by one. I had to respond, I think, eight or nine attacks.

00:09:36.060 And you looked very strong.

00:09:37.660 Yeah. I was, I was really good, but I think, yeah, if you do eight sprints, no, it takes

00:09:42.940 too much. And then I tried to respond by being stupid, no, and I tried to drop everybody from 0.97

00:09:50.720 the wheel on Galiby, but then I knew that Wout Van Aert is also in the front and it's 0.99

00:09:55.520 checkmate anyway, no? So yeah, that was just stupid for me. 1.00

00:10:00.840 And how much of that, I mean, just from a nutritional standpoint, did you feel depleted? Did you feel 0.99

00:10:05.440 like you didn't have enough, were you short a bottle on that stage or something?

00:10:08.660 I ate enough, but I think

00:10:10.720 the legs. You cannot eat enough when you do so much, so much power, you do so much

00:10:15.880 attacking, you cannot take more food than you can, no? So I think we had quite good plant

00:10:22.660 nutrition and everything. But if you do too much with your body, you cannot replace that.

00:10:28.920 When you're training, do you try to simulate that extent of attacking and recovering? And

00:10:35.580 obviously you can't replicate that fully in a training session.

00:10:39.320 Since I was junior, even before I knew what's going to be per course like, then find around my

00:10:45.920 home, similar type and then just do repetitions of one climb, like how many times it's going to be in

00:10:52.940 the race. And now sometimes I still do the same. I just see, for example, here in Montreal tomorrow

00:10:59.700 is around four minutes, climb to five minutes and two short ones. So you just try to do as many as

00:11:05.880 possible repetitions in the trainings as well, and trying to simulate the race.

00:11:12.000 What kind of climb do you like the most? What kind of climb do you like the least in terms of grade

00:11:16.120 in duration? Well, depends on the shape also. I really like around 20 minute climbs, quite steep.

00:11:23.580 10 to 12% or not that steep? Yeah, I would say now that because we go really fast, 7% to 8%,

00:11:32.580 it's already a lot of drafting. But then what's more than 9%, I think is pretty cool because

00:11:39.380 there's not much draft. So you can do what you want, basically.

00:11:43.520 Do you have many climbs near you that replicate where you can do 20 minutes at 8%, 9%, 10%?

00:11:50.180 No, not really. Not really. But five to 10 minutes, yes. 9%, 10%. In Slovenia, also just around 10

00:11:59.180 minutes with steep ones, but 20 minutes, that's quite rare. And then how much does the heat factor

00:12:04.560 into it? And how much are you able to replicate that in training? I think heat training became a thing

00:12:09.940 now in cycling a little bit, especially this year, maybe last two, three years. I mean,

00:12:16.020 we try to overheat the body in the training session or in a home trainer. It is a big factor,

00:12:23.100 especially for me. I felt always that I struggle when it's super hot. But yeah, if you try to train

00:12:29.660 this, you can be better. Yeah. I mean, I guess I could imagine if you're on a trainer at home,

00:12:34.880 it's easy to replicate it. Otherwise, you just have to find the environment at the elevation altitude.

00:12:39.140 This year, 2024, remarkable year for you, winning the Giro so comfortably, winning the Tour quite

00:12:45.660 comfortably, but seemed to be your strongest year. I mean, people said, well, Jonas crashed early in

00:12:51.300 the season. But the truth of it is Jonas' times were pretty remarkable this year. I mean, he seemed to

00:12:56.100 put out very good numbers. So it seemed to be just as much a function of you riding even better this

00:13:01.760 year than Jonas coming in injured as much as he was. Do you feel that that's the case?

00:13:06.840 Jonas had a big injury this year. I don't know how exactly his recovery went because they kept it

00:13:12.800 quite quiet. When he once got on the bike, I think he could start immediately training quite normal

00:13:19.540 now, for sure, at first, a little by little. But I think it affects on a three-week stage race. It

00:13:26.520 affects that preparation. And yeah, you don't have the capacity to go three weeks. You have the power,

00:13:32.960 like 10 minutes best power output or five minutes, 20 minutes. You can do one day, but then maybe your

00:13:40.260 body is not used to go another day. So I think that was the case with Jonas this year. He had a great

00:13:45.320 power. He got great numbers, but then maybe he lacked this three-week extent to perform.

00:13:51.760 I feel like every cycling fan just feels that we have this incredible treat where we have

00:13:56.420 both of you as these remarkable cyclists. You're both so young. We're going to have many more years

00:14:01.280 of you guys racing each other. Do you feel you're going to continue to race the Tour for many,

00:14:05.540 many more years? I mean, obviously people are saying, look, you could break every record here.

00:14:09.960 You could break the five Tours, the seven Tours. I mean, you could do it all. Is it your intention

00:14:14.340 to keep riding Grand Tours and specifically the Tour de France?

00:14:17.100 Tour de France is the biggest race of cycling. So yeah, to keep being on the top, you need to do

00:14:23.100 Tour de France. Yeah, I think battling between me and Jonas, pushing each other and always the tour is

00:14:28.860 the test who is better now of that year. And I think I will keep on riding the tour until once I

00:14:36.040 don't enjoy this stress anymore, maybe I hung up the bicycle in a garage or somewhere.

00:14:41.600 Something seemed different in you this year. You seemed stronger. What changed in your training

00:14:47.040 between 23 and 24? Well, I didn't change only training on the bike. I also implement core training

00:14:56.480 more and more outside of the bike stuff. I got more into the details of nutrition as well. I'm getting

00:15:03.280 older. So yeah, I'm not so obsessed anymore with just going cake on cake or just eating shit now. 0.99

00:15:10.840 Wait, does that mean that five years ago, you weren't paying much attention to your nutrition 0.97

00:15:15.640 and you were kind of eating as much as you wanted? Yeah, for sure. When you're a kid,

00:15:19.280 you can eat what you want and you don't gain fat. I mean, you don't gain too much because you're

00:15:25.920 evolving, you're growing up. When you're a kid, you can eat what you want.

00:15:31.040 So you're at the age right now, because you're going to be 26 in a week.

00:15:35.060 Do you need to watch your weight in the off season now?

00:15:39.460 I mean, my all year looks more or less the same. I never restrict too much or I never say,

00:15:48.480 okay, I cannot eat cake or I cannot eat chocolate, but all in measurements and when the time is right.

00:15:55.480 Because if you restrict too much and you don't touch chocolate for a month or for six months,

00:16:01.820 then one time you will break and you will go crazy. And I think that's not good relationship

00:16:07.240 with food. So you need to have balance also with the bad food also now. Then when it comes off season,

00:16:13.760 I don't have the cravings. I'm like, okay, now I go vacation. I have nice food, good food,

00:16:20.620 quality food and not crazy amount. So I don't gain so much weight.

00:16:25.240 What's the heaviest you'll be in the off season? 70?

00:16:28.180 No, like 69, maybe 70 after when you wake up after party or something when

00:16:33.440 our like big, big dinner with birthday party or something. No, when you eat just a lot,

00:16:38.680 but that's just also a lot of times just water weight or something, but around 69 would be maximum,

00:16:44.720 maximum.

00:16:45.460 Do you have a sense of how many grams of carbohydrate you can drink in an hour when you're training?

00:16:49.640 You mean drink or eat?

00:16:52.020 Both. Total amount of carbohydrate.

00:16:54.040 In drink, we have either 30 grams or 60 grams per bottles.

00:16:58.040 Not a strong dilution then?

00:16:59.440 No, I honestly, I like the 30 grams of grams because then I can eat more. But when it's a

00:17:05.940 hard stage, it's better having 60 grams in the bottle and then you can eat less. I mean,

00:17:11.500 still no, because for hard stages, you need to get around 120 grams per hour. For easier stages

00:17:18.260 from 60 to 90 is enough. So basically we aim for that per hour.

00:17:23.540 Was that easy for you to get to or did you have to train your gut to be able to eat that much?

00:17:27.820 At first, it seemed like five years ago, 120 grams per hour, that's impossible, but

00:17:32.840 with good food, with good nutrition.

00:17:35.580 What do you like to eat and drink?

00:17:36.860 We have a sponsor, Enervit, with our nutritionists. He designed really good gels and the drink

00:17:44.840 that's easy on the gut. Since they created this product, I don't have any stomach problems.

00:17:51.460 Five years ago, I would always go shit my pants after the stage races or long races. And now,

00:17:57.600 even eating 120 grams, no stomach problems.

00:18:01.680 And do you think that's more because you've gotten used to it or do you think it's more

00:18:04.140 because your nutritionist has figured out a recipe that works for you guys?

00:18:08.900 Yeah, I think it needs to be a good ratio between glucose, fructose, and all other stuff in the

00:18:15.080 gels. And it needs to be a good quality of what's inside. So you get used to it for sure.

00:18:21.800 When you're training right now, I don't mean right now, I mean when you're preparing,

00:18:25.680 say, for the tour. How do you define your energy systems? You define them more by heart rate,

00:18:30.540 by power, by how you feel? What are you using?

00:18:34.080 I've been training with heart rate monitors since I'm, I don't know, 12 years old, 10 years old.

00:18:40.500 So I would say I know how my heart rate responds when I'm tired or when I'm good. So yeah, I could go

00:18:49.660 by heart rate only. But it's always good to compare heart rate to power. But power meters are not so

00:18:56.080 reliable these days, I would say.

00:18:58.120 Really?

00:18:58.660 Yeah.

00:18:59.040 Which one do you guys use? SRM?

00:19:01.020 We have a Shimano power meter. Yeah, you always need to be careful with the temperatures of the

00:19:05.980 outside, the calibration, everything. And yeah, sometimes it can be off. You need to be careful

00:19:11.540 about this in my experiences. Yeah, the best is to train on your home roads, where you can also look

00:19:19.120 the speed, the VAM, how fast you're moving. What kind of VAM are you able to reach when you're

00:19:24.060 training? On a training, seven, seven and a half percent. If you go all out, I think it's like

00:19:31.500 1700 to 1800 of VAM for like 15 minutes.

00:19:37.000 That's just incredible. I know that people listening might not appreciate that. I'm not going

00:19:40.900 to take time to explain what VAM is. If they know what it is, they understand how crazy that is.

00:19:45.040 If they don't, they can look it up. I'm happy when I hit 1000, by the way, just for comparison.

00:19:50.180 Yeah, it depends on the gradient. No, but what I was trying to say is...

00:19:54.220 You're using these other metrics.

00:19:55.800 Yeah. You see all these three things, the speed, heart rate and power. Then you see how you feel and

00:20:02.480 in which zone are you really in.

00:20:04.860 And how much of your time are you spending at a low intensity, whether we call it zone,

00:20:10.900 zone two, whether we just call it aerobic, how much of your total training time would be

00:20:15.960 in that zone and not burning matches?

00:20:19.040 I love riding zone two. Yeah. Around where I live in Monaco, it's really hard to get big time

00:20:24.900 in zone two because there's a lot of climbing and then you have all the downhills.

00:20:28.720 Yeah. You can't maintain power.

00:20:29.900 Yeah. I try to hit really high zone two on the climbs. They are like 20 to 40 minutes long and

00:20:35.640 then you recover in downhill. But when I go home to Slovenia or somewhere else or in Spain when we're

00:20:41.260 training in Calpe or somewhere where it's more flat, I really like to stay five hours in zone two.

00:20:47.460 True zone two.

00:20:48.160 Yeah. And some trainings I would love to do just zone two and going nonstop.

00:20:52.660 What is your heart rate at zone two approximately?

00:20:56.260 When I'm fatigued, it's 140, 145. When I'm a bit more fresh, around 150 to 155.

00:21:03.540 And how many watts are you putting out at that heart rate?

00:21:06.220 320 to 340.

00:21:10.360 Again, I know it's just hard for people who are listening to us to understand what that means.

00:21:15.260 320 to 340 watts for five hours, keeping lactate below two, keeping heart rate at 140 is really

00:21:22.500 remarkable.

00:21:23.440 That's also another thing. In Monaco on the climbs where I can recover after, you cannot look zone

00:21:29.980 two and say, this is your zone two because you did two 10 minutes tests on this power.

00:21:35.100 Yeah. Because it's too much up and down.

00:21:36.300 Yeah. If you're doing five hour ride, your zone two after five hours, maybe not be your zone two

00:21:43.280 anymore. You always need to know at what time this zone two will not be your zone two anymore,

00:21:49.240 because on the flat, you will not recover. And five hours of riding of 320 to 340 for me is also

00:21:55.840 next day, I'm not riding the bike. So when I go on flat for longer, I drop power to 290 to 300.

00:22:04.880 Do you track your heart rate or heart rate variability in the morning? Do those numbers

00:22:08.600 give you any indication of how you're going to train that day or race?

00:22:11.540 Yeah, I started this in 2020 at first. I was especially in COVID time, lockdown this,

00:22:19.880 me and my girlfriend, we were doing that, but yeah, I did not find it really interesting or

00:22:25.660 helpful. But this year I started using more to track HRE heart rate in the night. And yeah,

00:22:33.500 I must say that I quite like it now to track it, but yeah, it's not something that...

00:22:38.060 It can be misleading. It can get in your head a little bit and you don't want it to tell you how

00:22:41.580 you're going to train that day.

00:22:42.460 Yeah, it can be misleading.

00:22:43.660 It's almost better for somebody else to look at it and tell you after.

00:22:46.640 Well, my girlfriend, she had a really good method for a while, especially in races. She don't open

00:22:52.280 in the morning. She opened it after the race. So she checked after the race, what was her heart rate

00:22:58.420 variability in the morning, not in the morning. If it would be really low, she would stress and then

00:23:03.740 would mess with race.

00:23:05.600 How much variation when you do look at your heart rate variability, how much variation do

00:23:09.220 you have between a high day and a low day of HRV?

00:23:13.460 On a really good day, I'd say my HRV would be, I don't know, 120, 130. Maximum some days can

00:23:21.720 pick up to 150.

00:23:23.240 Wow.

00:23:23.940 On the lower end would be also, I don't know, 35 could be, yeah.

00:23:27.580 That much of a difference.

00:23:28.840 Could be, yeah.

00:23:29.340 But is that from drinking alcohol the night before maybe?

00:23:31.580 Yeah. Okay.

00:23:32.840 In the races, in the tour, for example, and Giro was quite steady around from 80 to 110

00:23:40.980 was like average.

00:23:43.400 Wow.

00:23:44.000 Every day.

00:23:45.020 That's pretty amazing. And then resting heart rate, do you care at all about that or how much

00:23:48.680 heart rate range do you have? So what's the lowest you're going to be at and then what

00:23:52.120 is your maximum heart rate now versus five years ago?

00:23:54.780 The lowest I hit since I'm tracking, I think was 37. My average, I would say is like in

00:24:02.540 the night, I think 43, 42. But some days I could woke up with 48, 49. If you're sick

00:24:11.480 or really fatigued, maybe even over 50. The max heart rate, yeah, when I was junior, I could

00:24:17.100 hit 213, but it was shorter races.

00:24:21.560 And so now, for example, like in the...

00:24:23.400 Now, yesterday, 203. So it was still pretty high. So I'm pretty happy about it.

00:24:30.100 How often do you guys test VO2 max?

00:24:32.640 It's been a while since I tested the last time VO2 max, yeah.

00:24:35.820 Yeah. Interesting.

00:24:36.680 Probably it's high.

00:24:37.860 Yeah. I'm going to bet it's pretty high, yeah. Do you do an FTP test out of season just

00:24:42.720 as a way to track it, like a true 20-minute test?

00:24:45.460 True 20-minute test. Also, it's been a while since I've done one. I did this year fatigue

00:24:51.580 test when you repeat eight minutes of one power. I mean, going higher and higher power and then

00:24:58.640 also all out. Normally, we do a home trainer test in the camp in December. It's long from

00:25:06.200 one hour to one hour 30. Depends how long you want to test to which zone you want to test.

00:25:11.880 But yeah, normally around one hour 20 for me, 10-minute steps on the home trainer. And every

00:25:17.940 five minutes, you take lactate from the year to check for the zones. And I like to do it also at

00:25:23.980 home with my girlfriend. One time I do for her.

00:25:26.300 You test each other.

00:25:27.440 We test each other.

00:25:28.360 Yeah. For people listening, your girlfriend is obviously a very competitive professional 1.00

00:25:31.720 cyclist as well.

00:25:32.720 She is. Yeah.

00:25:32.940 Yeah.

00:25:34.200 If you guys have kids one day, look out.

00:25:36.280 Oh, man. I don't want to put them in cycling though.

00:25:40.000 Well, that would be a good idea actually, because they would probably have a very hard time filling

00:25:45.100 their parents' shoes. So they should pick up another sport.

00:25:47.660 They could be better even. Yeah.

00:25:50.560 Okay. Changing topics for a second. If we just think about three of the most epic climbs in the

00:25:55.200 Tour de France. Well, for me, I would say Ventoux, Alpe d'Huez, Golibier, but what would be the most

00:26:00.400 epic climbs? And what I really want to know is how do they compare in difficulty? Assuming you're equally 0.99

00:26:04.820 fresh on all days, like same situation. If you have to race up each, pick those three, if I said

00:26:11.440 Ventoux, Golibier, and Alpe d'Huez.

00:26:13.200 Well, of those three, Golibier is the easiest. Then I would say Ventoux, second. No, Alpe d'Huez,

00:26:20.980 second. Ventoux would be the hardest.

00:26:22.860 I think it's the hardest. Yeah. Also because of the nature.

00:26:25.860 Because of the wind at the top and stuff like that?

00:26:27.760 Wind, heat, can be no. Yeah. Alpe d'Huez, it's hard, but I think it's shorter.

00:26:33.740 And Golibier is...

00:26:35.740 It depends where it is in the stage too, yeah.

00:26:37.920 Also this. From Brian's own side, it's like dragging up in the valley and then when you

00:26:42.460 turn right, I mean, it's quite high altitude, but it's still quite a regular climb. From

00:26:47.740 the other side, you have Telegraph and then small downhill and climbing again. But it's

00:26:52.040 like, these are Coles from Alpes. They're all more or less the same. Golibier, Golibier,

00:26:57.800 Abonet. These are almost identical climbs, so you're used to those. Alpe d'Huez is just

00:27:03.140 mythical. You have way harder climbs than Alpe d'Huez for sure.

00:27:06.840 What is the hardest climb, you think, in the modern tour?

00:27:09.640 For me, personally, Col de Lose would be the hardest. I think everybody would agree on this.

00:27:16.380 Well, you had a very difficult day there in 23.

00:27:19.000 Yeah.

00:27:19.260 That was what, stage 18? Was it the queen stage? 0.89

00:27:22.340 Yeah, it was stage 17, I think, or 16. But yeah, I did it twice and first time, okay,

00:27:28.840 I did good, but then I felt really tired after it. It was really exhausting climb. And yeah,

00:27:35.620 last year was, we did Lose and then small downhill and to Alte port in what's called this town,

00:27:43.920 Kurchevel. Yeah, this was brutal.

00:27:46.060 This is something about you today that is very, it's very interesting. I've never seen a cyclist

00:27:51.920 who in defeat is so gracious and it's clear that you're upset, but you demonstrate. I mean,

00:27:58.560 I remember after that stage, you just thanked your team. You just said, thank God I had a great team

00:28:03.680 around me today or I would have come off the podium. That's remarkable sportsmanship, but how

00:28:07.900 are you able to do that? If I put myself in your shoes, I would just be so pissed off. I wouldn't

00:28:12.460 even want to talk to the media. I would just want to be locked in the trailer, you know?

00:28:16.060 It's not individual sport, it's the team sport. And the guys sacrifice everything to be there in the tour,

00:28:21.920 to help one guy to win the tour. In this day, we could really see how the guys reacted to me when I

00:28:30.280 dropped. They helped me, they support me emotionally, physically, whatever, no? It really felt like I let them

00:28:38.560 down and I was feeling just, yeah, I was devastated. I was upset, angry, but I couldn't change it. No,

00:28:45.780 so I just went with it. I was feeling down, but yeah, you cannot change nothing. And then,

00:28:51.820 yeah, when we had dinner with the guys was already better and they really helped me through that days.

00:28:57.700 What did you think about after the 23 tour? You'd now come in second twice. And my guess is there

00:29:05.160 were people out there saying, hey, maybe this guy isn't the next Eddie Merckx. I'm sure you don't

00:29:10.380 care about that, whether you're the next Eddie Merckx or not, but how did you think about that? And how

00:29:15.180 did it motivate you over the winter coming into 2024, where you set off on this, again, very aggressive

00:29:20.600 schedule to win huge races going into the tour? Yeah, it's frustrating. It was frustrating. Yeah,

00:29:27.400 I was anxious. I was stressed and I was not feeling great last year after the tour, but

00:29:32.280 I evaluate what went wrong, what was the mistakes, what I can do better. Yeah, it all went back to

00:29:40.120 the crash from Liège, preparation to the tour and everything else. It was, it built up everything and

00:29:46.640 yeah. Psychologically, I mean, did you have to get some confidence back? I mean, did you? Yeah,

00:29:52.200 for sure. I got some confidence back already on stage 20 when I win three days after that. World

00:29:57.920 Championship was like just a small patch on a wound, I would say. Third place, great racing, but it

00:30:04.320 didn't feel enough. And then, um, yeah, winning Lombardy was really big for me last year. Again,

00:30:12.220 for sure people listening who might not understand that there are these five huge classic

00:30:16.380 races that normally the people who win the Tour de France do not win those races and vice versa.

00:30:23.060 This is a totally different sport. It's sort of like, I don't know, the person who wins the

00:30:27.920 marathon winning the 10k. I mean, even though it's not even remotely the right comparison, but yes,

00:30:32.280 they're both on a bike, but it's different. And you've now won three of the five classics.

00:30:38.720 Yeah. I mean, Lombardy is the closest one that Grand Tour winner can win. The other four is,

00:30:44.080 they're really unlikely. Maybe Liege, Bastogne, Liege, but also it's really hard for a Grand Tour

00:30:50.100 contender to win those races.

00:30:52.560 We have Paris-Roubaix still.

00:30:54.020 Yeah, Paris-Roubaix and Sanremo.

00:30:55.860 Sanremo, yeah.

00:30:56.960 Sanremo is the one that is going to send me to grave, I have a feeling.

00:31:01.460 You're going to die trying to win that?

00:31:02.800 Yeah, probably. I'm getting so close, but it's yet so far, it's unbelievable.

00:31:07.880 To be clear, this is a goal. You want to win all five?

00:31:10.420 I want to win first world championships, Sanremo, and then we can see if there is a space for

00:31:16.440 Roubaix or not.

00:31:17.600 Not to discount it, but the Vuelta?

00:31:19.980 Yeah, of course. Vuelta, my first Grand Tour now in 2019, the podium was breakthrough for me

00:31:27.400 with three stages, white jersey, and I want to come back and seal the deal with the red jersey for sure.

00:31:33.040 Yeah. Well, I think you will.

00:31:34.620 Try.

00:31:34.840 What about the Olympics? Where does that rank on your goals?

00:31:39.040 Well, it's in Los Angeles in four years. I really hope for a nice parkour. Again, climbing

00:31:45.520 parkour like was in Tokyo or even harder. Yeah, we'll see when they announce it how eager I will

00:31:52.820 be. But Olympics in cycling is...

00:31:55.860 It's hard timing right on the heels of the tour.

00:31:58.720 You know, for other sports, in some other sports, they train four years just for Olympics. And then

00:32:06.000 this is the peak of career. And in cycling, the peak of your career needs to be Tour de France

00:32:11.920 every year. So...

00:32:13.040 It's not as high a priority as one of the worlds, obviously.

00:32:15.480 No. I mean, yeah, it's not.

00:32:18.180 Do you watch... Have you seen any of the Netflix series? Netflix has done the two specials on the

00:32:22.240 tour. Have you ever watched them?

00:32:23.180 Yeah. I watched the first season. I didn't watch the second season. I watched because I was in a

00:32:28.560 training camp. I didn't have anything better to watch. But yeah, for people like us, when we are

00:32:34.220 there now, it's not so fun to watch.

00:32:36.720 It's fun for me to be able to watch it with my wife or with friends if they're not cycling fans.

00:32:41.360 So they're not going to watch the tour with me and stuff like that. One of the things that people

00:32:45.760 who don't watch cycling and frankly, people like me who do still cannot believe is how you guys are

00:32:51.120 able to ride while fans are encroaching the roads. What's the closest call you've had with a fan?

00:32:57.660 First, yeah, the fans are amazing. When I was a kid, I always wanted that feeling to ride

00:33:03.060 through the group of fans like this. And now I enjoy it the most. Yeah, the closest I've been,

00:33:09.400 I don't know, in Kolder Lose was in 2020, was some close calls with Slovenian fan.

00:33:16.520 Yeah, but normally you need to watch the flags. The flags are really tricky one because they are

00:33:24.580 waiting in the middle of the road and they move it the last time. And sometimes they move differently

00:33:30.040 the flag. And when I'm watching this with my wife, she gets so mad at the TV. She's like,

00:33:35.240 get out of the way, get out of the way. I mean, she's screaming at the TV for the fans to move. 1.00

00:33:39.880 She's so upset. I think they help. I think they help.

00:33:42.520 So I was going to say the opposite because I try to put myself in a cyclist's shoes

00:33:46.840 and I feel like I would subconsciously be holding back a little bit for fear of hitting them. Not

00:33:53.260 that you're worried about hitting them, but worried about falling. Yeah, you do sometimes

00:33:56.640 let off the throttle a little bit, especially like if you attack or something and you're in the zone,

00:34:03.320 you feel like you're pushing all the watts that you can. But then when you see the fans,

00:34:07.920 I don't know, maybe let off a little bit, but it's still high power, I would say. But also because

00:34:14.320 when the adrenaline is so high and the noise is incredible, the noise is so loud and you're just

00:34:22.960 riding and you don't actually lose any momentum and it's crazy. It's hard to describe.

00:34:29.560 I can't imagine. Actually, it looks like one of the craziest things I've ever seen. This year in

00:34:35.620 the tour, I was very surprised that certain commentators were almost expressing disappointment

00:34:42.540 when you were winning stages after you had already secured the yellow jersey. Did any of that make it

00:34:48.480 to you? And if so, does that mean anything to you that people are saying he shouldn't be winning so

00:34:53.040 much? I actually don't see so many people saying he shouldn't win so much. Okay. The ones that hate

00:34:59.520 me, they will say that, but obviously they hold something against me. It's normal. But even the

00:35:05.980 people that are neutral and this don't say it in that I should hold back. I shouldn't win so much.

00:35:12.240 It's just the media and the commentators and journalists, they like to say these things just

00:35:18.420 so... Have something controversial to say. Yeah. But I really don't see so much controversy in this

00:35:24.260 because also for me, in some stages, a lot of stages, I count the other day, how many stages

00:35:30.720 I win 12 stages in Grand Tours this year? And I think we control to win and that I won was seven

00:35:39.780 stages. So it's just a little bit more than half, no? So it's not so bad. Do you even think about

00:35:47.180 equaling or bettering the mark now of Mercs and Cavendish in tour stage wins?

00:35:52.180 I don't want to think so much ahead just because you never know when it's your last win, no?

00:35:58.220 That's why you take every win. Yeah. If it's there, you take it. If you enjoy, you feel good,

00:36:03.460 you go for the stage, you win, no? Unless it's there some other reason. But yeah, I mean, 36 or how

00:36:11.240 much? Yeah, 34 or 36 or something like that. 35 stages from Cavendish is just crazy and

00:36:16.540 it's an incredible achievement. I don't want to think so much ahead. I want to go from tour to

00:36:23.500 tour and see how I feel and what can I do now. Have you met Eddie Mercs? I assume you have.

00:36:29.440 Yeah, I did. I met him a few times, one time more closely, but that was now already three years ago.

00:36:37.960 Yeah, we met for dinner. It was nice. There's a great book about him called Half Man, Half Bike.

00:36:43.960 It's one of my favorite books about cycling and it's kind of the story of his life and career.

00:36:48.420 It's just amazing. I'm sure you would enjoy it because it gives you an appreciation for how could

00:36:52.900 a guy win all of these races? Like what you're doing, right? You're winning Grand Tours. He's

00:36:58.380 winning the One Day Classics. And then of course, in 1972, to just obliterate the one hour world record,

00:37:05.160 a record that would stand for 12 years. And even 12 years later, when it was broken by Francesca Moser,

00:37:10.460 I mean, it was using completely new aero equipment and stuff, whereas Mercs did it on a

00:37:14.560 simple bike. Yeah. I've read certainly that Mercs has considered you truly the second coming of him.

00:37:21.720 That must mean a lot to you? I don't know. I don't know how to respond to that, but yeah,

00:37:26.760 for sure he was one of the greatest, especially at his time. This was, yeah, it was incredible and

00:37:33.200 how he won the races and I never saw any of his racing, but yeah, just when you read his

00:37:40.780 Palmares, it's just unbelievable. And yeah, it's something that you cannot imagine in this

00:37:47.160 era to achieve. So I don't think it's possible to do the same what he did now, but yeah, it's

00:37:54.060 different cycling now. Do you think that the one hour record is something you would even entertain

00:37:59.520 in terms of like making the effort for it and training for it, setting aside time? I was until

00:38:04.560 yeah, Ghana did it. And then Bingham, I think he did also before people. Before that time, 0.96

00:38:14.020 I would consider it now, not so much. I mean, Ghana was fast, really. He did incredible.

00:38:21.780 What is the difference between your power when you are climbing? So your femurs are not kinked down

00:38:28.740 versus when you're in a time trial position. How many watts do you lose being in a time trial

00:38:32.460 position for the same period of time? I don't know. I'm still trying to figure this one out

00:38:37.660 actually. But yeah, I see that I have one time trial. I have some good days and some bad days.

00:38:44.780 I'm not so consistent as on a road bike, but when it matters, I can push more or less the same

00:38:50.620 numbers on the TT bike as the road bike. It's coming all along now with biomechanics,

00:38:56.580 Vintana testings and so many trainings, so many intervals doing that you're trying to figure out

00:39:03.100 the best position to be possible to do this power.

00:39:07.600 You mentioned that you did some more strength work in the off season coming into 24 as part of

00:39:12.220 the reason why you seem even stronger than before, which is hard to imagine. Were you doing any

00:39:17.820 strength training for your legs? Were you doing any weights?

00:39:20.540 Yeah, a little bit weights. I'm still doing the strength training throughout the season,

00:39:26.060 but with less weights. But yeah, still legs, core, glutes, hips. And this is for me,

00:39:34.760 personally, it's important.

00:39:36.540 Yeah, not anymore. But did you ever used to, when you were growing up, run or swim or do any other

00:39:41.160 endurance sports?

00:39:42.020 We were younger in our team in Ljubljana. In the winter, we were running up the mountain

00:39:47.640 three, four times per week. After school, we had meeting, training meeting, and we go this

00:39:54.280 mountain that was close by and we go two, three times up, down. That was it. We swam also a few

00:40:01.100 years, one time per week for one hour or something. Yeah, we tried different sports in the winter

00:40:07.140 and cross-country skiing. This is my favorite. Yeah, running on the flat, not so much. But now I try

00:40:13.100 in the last two years, I tried to put running also into off-season.

00:40:18.320 Really?

00:40:18.480 I tried to start in off-season and I tried to keep it as long as possible into season, but

00:40:23.060 didn't work out this year.

00:40:24.640 So in your off-season, what is the most days you'll go without being on a bike at all? No stationary bike,

00:40:30.980 no outdoors.

00:40:32.220 Well, stationary bike is no go for me anyway, especially in off-season.

00:40:36.400 I don't do it. But yeah, I don't know. We have a team camp in UAE. It's like six days.

00:40:42.860 But yeah, last year, for example, we went with the boys, run together in Abu Dhabi two times

00:40:49.460 and playing paddle, something so. And then going off to vacation. Then on vacation, you get bored,

00:40:56.740 you go for a run or playing paddle or whatever, again, or swimming. And I cannot say that I do

00:41:03.060 two weeks without the bike or without any training at all because I really enjoy doing other stuff and

00:41:09.920 other sports. So yeah, maybe three days doing nothing. Then one day you do something and then

00:41:15.700 maybe three days again, nothing. But then mid-November, always starting on a bike, road bike again.

00:41:23.020 How old were you when you realized you were going to be or when you knew you wanted to be a professional

00:41:27.540 cyclist?

00:41:28.580 I was a junior. So 16, 17 years, 17 years old, when I thought that I have a chance to be professional,

00:41:36.800 to be in the World Tour team. But yeah, second year juniors, I realized that I can definitely be in

00:41:44.460 World Tour. And then when I come to under 23, I already signed with UAE team pre-contract for

00:41:52.480 2019. So two years after.

00:41:56.520 Well, Tadi, I have a million more questions I could ask you, but I know you've got a team meeting

00:42:00.240 shortly. I want to make sure you get to that on time. I want to make sure you get a good dinner

00:42:03.740 and have a great race tomorrow. And above all else, I mean, really, we're just, I think everybody's

00:42:07.780 kind of excited to see you at the Worlds in a couple of weeks. And again, not to put pressure on you,

00:42:12.880 but just so people understand the significance of that, to be able to win two Grand Tours in a year

00:42:17.900 is really unprecedented. If there's a chance to add a world title to that, it's kind of

00:42:22.240 unbelievable. And at the other end of that, should it not happen this year, given that you're not yet

00:42:27.040 26, I think most people would take the bet that you're going to have another shot at that.

00:42:30.820 Yeah. But the sooner we get it over, the better it is. There is no more pressure.

00:42:35.580 Yeah. I love it. Well, thank you, Tadi.

00:42:37.820 Thank you so much.

00:42:39.480 Thank you for listening to this week's episode of The Drive.

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The Peter Attia Drive - September 23, 2024

#318 ‒ Cycling phenom and Tour de France champion Tadej Pogačar reveals his training strategies, on-bike nutrition, and future aspirations

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