The Peter Attia Drive - December 16, 2024


#329 ‒ Special AMA: Peter on exercise, important labs, building good habits, promising longevity research, and more


Episode Stats

Length

27 minutes

Words per Minute

190.47852

Word Count

5,196

Sentence Count

324

Misogynist Sentences

10

Hate Speech Sentences

4


Summary

In today's bonus AMA, Dr. Nick Stenson joins me to answer a variety of commonly asked questions from the past year across a wide range of topics and frameworks. We cover topics such as: - Why I don t believe exercise is an ideal strategy for weight loss - The importance of strength training while traveling, and why I don't believe exercise should be your primary focus when traveling. - What's your favorite exercise to do when traveling? - What are your favorite foods to eat on the road? - How do you stay awake when driving? - Are you a night driver? - Do you ever fall asleep in your car while driving? - What do you do to stay awake while driving to and from appointments?


Transcript

00:00:00.000 Hey everyone, welcome to a sneak peek, ask me anything or AMA episode of the drive podcast.
00:00:15.820 I'm your host, Peter Atiyah. At the end of this short episode, I'll explain how you can access
00:00:20.280 the AMA episodes in full, along with a ton of other membership benefits we've created,
00:00:24.900 or you can learn more now by going to peteratiyahmd.com forward slash subscribe.
00:00:30.600 So without further delay, here's today's sneak peek of the ask me anything episode.
00:00:38.980 Welcome to a special rapid fire, ask me anything episode. I'm once again joined by my cohost,
00:00:45.080 Nick Stenson. In today's AMA episode, we thought it would be fun to do an end of year bonus AMA
00:00:49.620 in a more rapid style manner to answer many questions that are commonly asked that have
00:00:55.100 come through over the past year across a wide range of topics and frameworks. We discuss questions on
00:01:00.280 exercise such as grip strength, exercise while traveling, the importance of strength training,
00:01:04.220 and why I don't believe exercise is an ideal strategy for weight loss. We talk about labs,
00:01:09.860 including the quote, top five most important biomarkers, unquote, that everyone should know
00:01:14.700 for themselves. Spoiler alert, I hate that question. We talk about new research on longevity,
00:01:19.600 that has come out and that has been particularly exciting. And I answer the question, if I have
00:01:24.240 changed my mind on anything recently, as it relates to longevity, we speak about some of the frameworks
00:01:28.740 that I use and the importance of using the objective strategy tactics model as an approach
00:01:34.160 versus a one size fits all approach. We close the conversation by talking about building good habits
00:01:39.920 and my recent reading list. If you're a subscriber and want to watch the full video of this podcast,
00:01:45.840 you can find it on the show notes page. If you're not a subscriber,
00:01:48.620 you can watch the sneak peek of the video on our YouTube page. So without further delay,
00:01:53.540 I hope you enjoy this bonus AMA rapid fire.
00:02:01.640 Peter, welcome to a special bonus AMA. How are you doing?
00:02:06.000 I'm doing well. Thank you for having me back.
00:02:08.200 Anything new going on in your life?
00:02:10.500 Just a few things.
00:02:13.480 I say that with not knowing anything, but just anything that jumps out to you.
00:02:18.480 No, but I did wake up to an awesome text message today. I've got this car that I'm trying to do
00:02:25.500 something to the stereo system. And the guy who really, really knows what he's doing has been
00:02:29.860 working on it for six weeks. He cannot figure out what's wrong with this thing. And it's super
00:02:34.080 complicated. And he sent me this video this morning and it was like a video of him moving
00:02:40.480 through the car. And he says, I figured it out. And he hits the stereo. And all you hear is the
00:02:45.820 beginning of ACDCs back in black, like full beans. And I was like, that is an awesome video to wake up
00:02:54.240 too. That's amazing. Back in the day, the younger days, did you ever put like one of those big
00:03:00.200 subwoofers in your car ever? No, I did not. You know, believe it or not, I didn't actually own my
00:03:06.600 first car until I was in med school. I kind of rode my bike and took the bus everywhere.
00:03:10.940 Well, that's fair. Maybe we'll get to it. You told the story, I think in the book too,
00:03:14.680 and I think it's come up on another podcast, but whenever I think of you med school and driving,
00:03:19.260 I think of you falling asleep in the park in Baltimore.
00:03:22.800 That was residency.
00:03:24.280 Oh, residency.
00:03:25.180 Residency. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Med school is not that exhausting.
00:03:27.480 I love it. So for today's AMA, it's going to be kind of a little different style,
00:03:32.020 just more conversational, a little bit covering questions that come through that we haven't
00:03:37.360 covered before. Some of it will be conversations that we've had internally that we were like,
00:03:43.100 ah, it'd be great to record this and kind of put it out there. So it's going to be a mix
00:03:47.420 of specific questions, more framework, organizing principle questions. We'll cover
00:03:52.500 things like labs, prioritization as it relates to actions, what you're excited about in the
00:03:58.600 field of longevity, books you've maybe read recently, and a bunch of other random stuff.
00:04:03.760 So with all that said, we'll get going. First topic, your favorite exercise. And within it,
00:04:10.360 we're going to cover grip strength. So it's something you've talked about before, the importance
00:04:15.640 of, but I don't think we've ever really covered a little bit in depth on like how you train for
00:04:20.160 and how you think about it in the weight room. So before we get to that, do you just kind of want
00:04:24.400 to remind people why you think grip strength is important? Yeah. So grip strength is important
00:04:31.020 probably for a little bit of the reasons that we understand the drunk under the streetlight
00:04:36.840 problem, which means the old adage of the drunk guy standing under the streetlight and someone
00:04:42.060 asks him what he's doing. And he says, he's looking for his keys. And they ask him if this is
00:04:45.920 where he dropped him. And he says, no, but this is where the light is. Right. So sometimes where it's
00:04:49.640 brightest is where you end up looking. So I don't want to, of course, minimize grip strength,
00:04:53.500 but I also want to just point out that in the literature, when you are interested in studying
00:04:59.000 the relationship between strength and outcomes, everything from onset of dementia, all cause
00:05:04.720 mortality, cardiovascular disease, all of these things, which has been studied, you need objective
00:05:10.460 measurements of strength to test. If your hypothesis is strength is positively associated
00:05:16.640 with correlates with, or even causal towards these things, you have to be able to test it.
00:05:21.460 And so the question then becomes, well, how do you test strength? Should we have people deadlift
00:05:25.340 things? And I think if you go through that exercise, you pretty quickly realize that's probably not a good
00:05:29.940 idea because most people don't deadlift and technique is pretty important in deadlifting and it's pretty
00:05:37.100 easy for somebody to hurt themselves. So what scientists have done instead over the years is they've
00:05:41.180 tended to study things that anybody can do, even if they don't do the particular exercise that's
00:05:47.400 being tested. You shouldn't be testing squat strength or deadlift strength if a person doesn't
00:05:51.920 deadlift or squat. So the things that have typically emerged as strength tests are grip strength,
00:05:59.000 wall sits. So that's a test of, you know, at least isometric quad strength, bench press. If you don't
00:06:05.080 bench press, that's a bit of a stretch. Leg extension. Those tend to be the big ones. Sometimes leg press
00:06:10.780 as well. So I just want to caveat it by saying, I don't think there's something super, super magical
00:06:16.660 about grip strength. We just have such an abundance of data on it because it's such an easy thing to
00:06:23.120 test. So the next question then would be, is there something magical about having a strong grip? And
00:06:31.500 here, I think the answer is partly yes. A strong grip in isolation doesn't really exist. So there's
00:06:39.280 really no example I can think of where a person has a very strong grip in their hand, but their
00:06:46.260 forearm, deltoids, scapula, triceps, all of these other things are weak. So a strong grip is sort of
00:06:53.980 a way to test very strong, very stable control through the upper extremity all the way down to
00:07:01.640 the outside world. And again, it's a very practical thing. Just talk to any person who's reached an age
00:07:07.720 where they can't open a new jar of pickles, or they struggle to unlock a door, or they struggle
00:07:15.180 to carry a heavy plate. So when your grip strength goes, your quality of life absolutely goes. But
00:07:20.740 again, I think it's just a proxy for people who are strong. And that kind of leads into your question,
00:07:26.040 which is, how should you train it? So what's undeniable is the strength of the association. So
00:07:31.080 I'm not even going to go into that because the data are overwhelming. The strength of the association
00:07:35.300 between grip strength and any and everything positive warrants no further discussion. The more
00:07:41.300 important question is, is it causal? If grip strength is just a proxy for health, and increasing
00:07:47.500 grip strength does nothing to increase health, then we really shouldn't be talking about this.
00:07:51.300 I don't believe that that's the case. I make an argument for that in Outlive, which is going
00:07:56.360 through sort of the Bradford Hill criteria and explaining why I think there is causality in the
00:08:01.840 association. In other words, why is it that increasing metrics of strength and endurance
00:08:08.060 also improves lifespan and healthspan, not that they are just markers of healthy people
00:08:13.720 who go on to have a better lifespan and healthspan. So how would you train it? Well, I can't tell you
00:08:19.520 the number of times I give a talk, or I just run into somebody in the airport, and they tell me that
00:08:24.320 they went out and bought a little grip squeezer on Amazon. And they said, Peter, you've got me
00:08:28.540 convinced I got to strengthen my grip. So now I sit around and I squeeze these little things all day.
00:08:33.100 And I said, well, that's great. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. But I don't
00:08:37.220 think that's the optimal way to train grip strength. I think what you really want to do is do all of the
00:08:42.780 other things that rely on strong grip. And the most obvious example of these things are exercises
00:08:49.100 that involve carrying and pulling and hanging. That's really where we put our grip to the test.
00:08:54.900 So I'm giving you a very long-winded answer, Nick, but the point is you want to train your
00:08:59.740 grip strength by doing the things that rely on grip. So when you pick things up, when you carry
00:09:04.660 things, when you pull things, if you're doing a seated cable pull, if you're doing a pull down,
00:09:09.600 if you're doing a pull up, if you're doing a farmer's carry, if you're doing a deadlift,
00:09:14.560 those are the way we train grip. So I don't do very many things that are quote unquote deliberate grip
00:09:20.640 strength exercises. I suppose that when I do farmer's carries, I'm almost exclusively doing
00:09:25.780 that to push the limits of my grip. And maybe let's isolate two of the things you mentioned
00:09:30.240 that I think are easiest for people to potentially test on themselves at a gym, you know, with the
00:09:36.560 least amount of equipment. Like you said, if you haven't deadlifted before, you probably shouldn't
00:09:40.080 just start deadlifting without understanding the form. So I think looking at farmer's carry
00:09:44.660 and dead hang, let's say farmer's carry. What do you think is like the ideal goal for someone to be
00:09:51.960 able to do a farmer's carry with in terms of time and weight? Well, lots of people have weighed in on
00:09:59.800 this question. And I think the question just becomes like, how extreme do you want to go?
00:10:03.960 There's a standard out there that basically says the definition of exceptional strength is being able to
00:10:09.480 walk with twice your body weight for 30 seconds. So if you weigh 175 pounds, you should be able to do
00:10:16.840 a trap bar deadlift with 350 pounds and then carry it, walk with it for 30 seconds. And obviously that's
00:10:25.840 a very high standard, but I would say a more reasonable standard for maybe sub elite athletes.
00:10:32.320 I think for a male in his forties to be able to carry his body weight for one minute is good.
00:10:39.100 And for two minutes is very good, just your body weight. So again, if you weighed 175 pounds,
00:10:43.160 you'd put 175 pounds on a trap bar, you'd pick it up and march with that for one to two minutes.
00:10:48.660 And I think for a woman, I would probably consider 75% of her body weight to be also an excellent
00:10:55.240 achievement. Of course, you might discount that by 10% per decade. I don't think a person should be
00:11:00.340 discouraged if the first time they try to do that, they can't do it. In fact, if you haven't been doing
00:11:04.940 that sort of thing, and if you're not used to deadlifting and doing a lot of pull-ups and hangs,
00:11:09.880 I would not expect anybody to be able to do that. And so you do want to work up to that. And I really
00:11:13.820 believe in the principle of working up to that without going to maximal effort. I know that there's
00:11:18.280 a lot to be said from doing maximal efforts, but I think this is an area where I prefer to see people
00:11:22.920 build resilience slowly. For example, if an individual tried that test, so let's just say you take 175
00:11:28.780 pound person, they put 175 pounds on a hex bar. They say, look, I want to carry this for at least a minute.
00:11:33.820 And 30 seconds in, they drop it. I'd say, great. Okay. What I want you to do is drop the weight on
00:11:38.600 that bar to call it 150 pounds. So 25 pounds below that, that 175. And I'd like you to do 30
00:11:46.140 second sets. I'd like you to do 10 sets at 30 seconds. And then I want you to advance weight
00:11:51.160 and or time accordingly. But I want you to be able to get through those 10 sets such that at the end of
00:11:56.120 the 10, you're really completely gassed. That's the way I kind of like to see people build strength
00:12:00.160 there. Another test that we've talked about is the dead hang. So as its name suggests,
00:12:04.960 you just sort of put your hands up on the bar. You can do it over any configuration of bars,
00:12:08.800 but I kind of like to just do it over a straight bar and you hang. Now, again, there's two big things
00:12:14.660 to be thinking about here. Do you do it with the scapula engaged or not engaged? And I like to do it
00:12:20.680 with the scapula engaged. So the scapula are down. And so the lats are under a lot of stress,
00:12:26.440 but they're not being as stretched. If the scapula go up, if the scapula go up, you're going
00:12:30.820 to put a little bit more stress on the elbows. That doesn't necessarily cause problems. By the
00:12:36.020 way, I can dead hang both. And my dead hang record was actually an attempt where my scapula were up.
00:12:41.840 So sometimes I will go back and forth between the two techniques. And I didn't suffer any permanent
00:12:46.500 injury from doing that or anything like that. So again, I think here, a standard would be a very
00:12:51.260 strong 40 year old male should be able to dead hang for at least two minutes. And a very strong
00:12:57.000 40 year old female should be able to dead hang for at least 90 seconds. And again, you would discount
00:13:02.380 that as time goes by decade and probably subtract about 10 seconds per decade. And again, a lot of
00:13:08.940 people don't succeed in that at their first time. That's fine. But again, you can do that either by
00:13:13.700 adding bands. So you use a band, a resistance band that you are sinking into, right? You put your feet
00:13:18.600 into it. So it's removing some of the weight. Alternatively, I just like to have people go
00:13:22.040 for much shorter periods of time, maybe do 30 second hangs and repeat those.
00:13:27.420 And do you have a preference on like hands the same way, hands that are switched? Do you even
00:13:32.500 think about that? Or is it just a matter of...
00:13:34.540 Sure. You can mix and match, but I think for this, I like to be palms out. So I'm palms out,
00:13:39.880 both hands the same over.
00:13:42.120 And remind me, what was your record?
00:13:43.780 Four minutes, 35 seconds. And that was with full scapula up, not engaged scaps.
00:13:49.200 Wow.
00:13:49.400 And my wife's record is three minutes and 10 seconds, which I think is actually more impressive.
00:13:54.100 Yeah. She's a machine.
00:13:55.360 Yeah.
00:13:55.660 And she probably trains it a little less than you were training for your record.
00:13:59.340 It was literally the second time she ever did a dead hang. And she literally just did it to,
00:14:05.300 she was like, why do you keep doing this? Let me try.
00:14:08.240 Yeah. Just to show you, it's not that hard. You're spending too much time on it.
00:14:11.260 Yeah, exactly.
00:14:11.920 You mentioned wall sits. So I got to ask, what's ideal for wall sits? Again, it's another one
00:14:17.360 anyone can kind of do and test a little bit. Do you think about like, what is an ideal time
00:14:23.140 that you should be able to do that for?
00:14:25.440 Yeah, there are standards and I apologize. They're not tip of tongue for me. I want to say
00:14:29.660 two minutes is considered a pretty good wall sit for anybody. I don't tend to do wall sits like that.
00:14:35.460 There's another exercise I prefer to do, which is I'll do an air bike. I'll ride on the
00:14:41.760 air bike for a minute hard and then I'll hold a kettlebell and wall sit for 30 seconds to a minute.
00:14:49.600 So it's a shorter sit, but I come in pre-fatigued. Plus I'm adding some stress to it by holding a
00:14:55.040 weight. But if you just do a straight up wall sit, I apologize. We'll put it in the show notes for what
00:15:00.400 a good standard is. I want to say it's two minutes, but it might be five minutes. I honestly don't
00:15:04.140 remember. Anything else on grip strength before we move on? No, I think that's good. Perfect.
00:15:10.820 Another question that comes through a lot is on exercises, people who are traveling. So whether
00:15:15.700 it's for work, whether it's family, you're not at your traditional location, gym, whatever it may be.
00:15:22.580 So if you're traveling, any advice you would give patients on easy exercises they can do,
00:15:29.240 ways they can continue to stay active, even when they're not in an ideal setting.
00:15:35.300 Yeah, I do get asked this question a lot. And honestly, like my answer is you have to be
00:15:41.060 deliberate. And that sounds like maybe not what people want to hear. I think people are looking
00:15:45.680 for a quick fix, but when I travel, you can ask my assistant, what's the first thing I'm asking?
00:15:50.940 What's question number one? It's show me the gym. I want to know exactly what the gym looks like.
00:15:56.820 And if the website doesn't have good pictures, please have somebody who works at the front desk,
00:16:00.780 go down with their phone, film the gym, send us the video so we can evaluate. Yeah, I know.
00:16:06.040 It sounds ridiculous. I get it. But unless you're going to the middle of nowhere where you have no
00:16:10.400 choice in hotel, you have a choice in where you stay. Now you'll have to make a concession. Maybe
00:16:14.820 you have to be a little bit further from the place you want to be at. Maybe you're going to add
00:16:18.720 10 minutes or 15 minutes of driving time. Maybe the hotel is going to be a little bit more
00:16:22.220 expensive. Like there will be a trade-off and everyone has to make that trade-off. But I start with
00:16:26.620 that question, which is how can I make sure that whatever hotel I'm at has a good enough gym?
00:16:32.380 It's not going to be the gym I have at home. It's not going to allow me to do everything I would do
00:16:36.520 at home, but that's okay. Basically, I've never been to a hotel where I can't do something.
00:16:41.080 Even if they just have a bench and dumbbells, then I can do presses and I can do rows and I could do
00:16:47.060 push-ups and hopefully the bench incline. So maybe I can do an incline bench as well as a flat bench.
00:16:52.520 I could do rear foot elevated split squats, regular split squats. Like there's a lot you can do
00:16:56.520 with a modest amount of dumbbells and a bench. And then of course, most gyms have much more than
00:17:01.060 that. That to me is sort of step one. Step two is when traveling, you have to sort of be mindful of
00:17:07.260 what jet lag is going to do to you. So because I'm in central time zone and when I travel west,
00:17:12.100 it's really easy for me to work out early in the morning. A 5 a.m. workout is easy when I go to
00:17:17.900 California for three days. So I can start my meetings actually quite early on those days
00:17:22.880 because I know I'm going to get the workout done early. Conversely, if I go to New York,
00:17:27.440 I have to keep in mind, like I'm going to be a little bit tired. I am not going to want to work
00:17:31.040 out at six because six feels like five and I don't like working. I mean, even though I'm comfortable
00:17:35.660 getting up at five, I don't want to work out first thing at five o'clock. So then I have to adjust
00:17:40.380 the timing of the meetings. So I think those are basically the two big things is make sure that your
00:17:45.000 schedule has the time for you to do the workout and budget according to what jet lag is going to
00:17:49.960 do to you and pick a place to go so that you can get the workout in the hotel. That's always going
00:17:56.920 to be easier than if you have to leave the hotel to go to the gym. You can do that. And of course,
00:18:01.340 there's been many times in my life when my training was so elaborate that I had to go into a commercial
00:18:06.680 gym, but it was the same playbook. I would just book a hotel near the commercial gym.
00:18:10.720 Yeah. And it sounds like the key is something's better than nothing when you're traveling.
00:18:14.880 When it comes to exercise.
00:18:16.600 A hundred percent. The goal of exercising when you're traveling is not to maybe make the most
00:18:19.940 incredible gains. It's just to prevent the losses.
00:18:22.380 Another question that comes through often is sex specific. So if you have female patients who
00:18:29.000 prefer cardio compared to weightlifting, why do you think women should pay special attention to
00:18:36.860 strength training?
00:18:38.320 Yeah, there are two big reasons for this. The first is that women naturally have less muscle mass
00:18:42.860 and are not as strong as men. And yet they still live in the same environment as men do,
00:18:47.660 which is to say they're going to be subject to all the same forces. And this is one of the reasons why
00:18:52.640 we see women fall more than men. It's not just that women are more injured by falls, which they are,
00:18:57.780 and we'll discuss that in a moment. It's that women actually fall more than men. And one of the
00:19:02.480 reasons for that is a disparate exchange in strength. So that's reason number one. Reason number two
00:19:07.460 is, of course, strength training is one of the most important exercises that we have, one of the most
00:19:13.140 important behaviors that we have to stabilize bone density. And because women tend to have a lower
00:19:20.740 genetic ceiling, and more importantly, because women lose estrogen during the middle of their lives,
00:19:27.900 they begin to experience a disproportionate drop in bone density as they age. And so the gap between men
00:19:34.620 and women that's always there really begins to widen in the fifth or sixth decade of a woman's
00:19:40.100 life. And that's all the more reason why she needs to be strength training, because there really is no
00:19:45.700 substitute for the type of strain that is placed on bones during strength training. It can't be
00:19:54.080 replicated by running, certainly can't be replicated by cycling or swimming or other endurance sports,
00:19:58.760 yoga, all of those things are simply not going to do it. And therefore, they've got to be able to put
00:20:03.620 this kind of external load on. Last exercise question is kind of a conversation that you had
00:20:09.940 internally with a few people that we thought was interesting on how you think about exercise
00:20:15.860 as a strategy for weight loss. Do you kind of want to talk a little bit about that?
00:20:21.140 Well, I overall don't think exercise is a phenomenal strategy for weight loss, which is not to say that it
00:20:27.980 doesn't play a role in maintaining a healthy weight. I think it does. But I think if you look at the
00:20:34.240 experimental evidence, exercise, i.e. calorie expenditure does not appear to be a very viable
00:20:42.240 tool for weight loss. And by weight loss, we're obviously talking about fat loss. The majority of the
00:20:48.880 work on that front really has to be done through caloric restriction. So if you just want to simplify and
00:20:54.680 think of a machine with inputs and outputs, it's really reduction of the inputs that seems to play
00:20:59.820 the greater role in weight loss. That said, we think that exercise is a very important part of health
00:21:07.000 and that health is the single most important thing. It's more important than weight loss per se.
00:21:12.740 Furthermore, exercise does indeed make a difference for body composition. And body composition should
00:21:20.160 probably be thought of as more important than weight per se. So if an individual, like I don't
00:21:25.680 think a BMI is an especially valuable tool at the individual level. I think it's a reasonable tool at
00:21:31.820 the population level. But for any one individual, BMI is not really that helpful. I don't know my BMI,
00:21:37.440 but I would bet that it's in the overweight. I know it's in the overweight category. My BMI is probably
00:21:41.400 27 or 28, which again, overweight is once you're above 25, but below 30. 30 is obese. I'm not quite there.
00:21:47.720 So if my BMI is overweight, is that a bad thing? Well, not necessarily. It depends on my body
00:21:52.400 composition. And so here's an area where exercise makes a huge difference. I think indirectly there
00:21:58.940 are other areas where exercise is very important for weight maintenance. And I think, for example,
00:22:05.500 exercise maintains insulin sensitivity and the more insulin sensitive a person is, I think the easier
00:22:10.480 it is for them to respond to appetite signals. And so while just doing the accounting of
00:22:17.580 calories burned versus calories in, exercise generally falls short there. In other words,
00:22:22.760 whatever calories you expend doing the workout, you're generally going to pay them back. The goal,
00:22:27.260 I think, is to be sensitive to the appropriate appetite signals so that one doesn't overeat in
00:22:33.060 that state. Awesome. Any other things on exercise at top of mind that you want to share with the people
00:22:40.680 before we move on? I like exercise. I tried to say that in a Steve Carell voice. Like I like lamp.
00:22:48.240 I love lamp. You could have saved a lot of time and a lot of words by just having that
00:22:53.200 have been outlive. It probably would have come out a lot earlier if it was just one page,
00:22:58.860 one sentence. Okay. Moving on to labs. So this question I know is a tough one for you to answer.
00:23:07.420 The reason I know that is it's been on other AMAs and it always gets scrapped because you're like,
00:23:12.960 I can't answer this. It's too simple, too hard to do it, but we keep sneaking it on. And now you
00:23:18.880 kind of have to answer it, which is if you had to pick gun to your head, the quote unquote top five
00:23:27.320 most important biomarkers that everyone should know for themselves. And, or if you were going to meet
00:23:33.100 with a new patient and you could kind of only see five biomarkers to figure out their risks,
00:23:38.760 to figure out where they're at, what would those be? Thank you for listening to today's sneak peek
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