The Peter Attia Drive - #56 - Jocko Willink, retired Navy SEAL, Part II of II： Sleep, fasting, raising kids, discipline, taking ownership, and the impact of war

00:00:00.000 Hey everyone, welcome to the Peter Atiyah drive. I'm your host, Peter Atiyah. The drive

00:00:10.880 is a result of my hunger for optimizing performance, health, longevity, critical thinking, along

00:00:15.940 with a few other obsessions along the way. I've spent the last several years working

00:00:19.660 with some of the most successful top performing individuals in the world. And this podcast

00:00:23.620 is my attempt to synthesize what I've learned along the way to help you live a higher quality,

00:00:28.360 more fulfilling life. If you enjoy this podcast, you can find more information on today's episode

00:00:33.000 and other topics at peteratiyahmd.com. Hey everybody, welcome to this week's episode

00:00:43.360 of the drive. I'd like to take a couple of minutes to talk about why we don't run ads on this podcast

00:00:48.580 and why instead we've chosen to rely entirely on listener support. If you're listening to this,

00:00:53.820 you probably already know, but the two things I care most about professionally are how to live

00:00:59.060 longer and how to live better. I have a complete fascination and obsession with this topic. I

00:01:04.760 practice it professionally and I've seen firsthand how access to information is basically all people

00:01:09.920 need to make better decisions and improve the quality of their lives. Curating and sharing this

00:01:15.100 knowledge is not easy. And even before starting the podcast, that became clear to me. The sheer volume

00:01:20.380 of material published in this space is overwhelming. I'm fortunate to have a great team that helps me

00:01:25.800 continue learning and sharing this information with you. To take one example, our show notes are in a

00:01:31.600 league of their own. In fact, we now have a full-time person that is dedicated to producing those

00:01:36.260 and the feedback has mirrored this. So all of this raises a natural question. How will we continue

00:01:42.440 to fund the work necessary to support this? As you probably know, the tried and true way to do this

00:01:47.980 is to sell ads. But after a lot of contemplation, that model just doesn't feel right to me for a few

00:01:54.200 reasons. Now, the first and most important of these is trust. I'm not sure how you could trust me if I'm

00:02:00.400 telling you about something when you know I'm being paid by the company that makes it to tell you about

00:02:05.080 it. Another reason selling ads doesn't feel right to me is because I just know myself. I have a really

00:02:11.280 hard time advocating for something that I'm not absolutely nuts for. So if I don't feel that way

00:02:16.460 about something, I don't know how I can talk about it enthusiastically. So instead of selling ads,

00:02:21.580 I've chosen to do what a handful of others have proved can work over time. And that is to create

00:02:27.420 a subscriber support model for my audience. This keeps my relationship with you both simple and

00:02:33.480 honest. If you value what I'm doing, you can become a member and support us at whatever level

00:02:39.460 works for you. In exchange, you'll get the benefits above and beyond what's available for free.

00:02:44.300 It's that simple. It's my goal to ensure that no matter what level you choose to support us at,

00:02:50.040 you will get back more than you give. So for example, members will receive full access to the

00:02:57.520 exclusive show notes, including other things that we plan to build upon, such as the downloadable

00:03:04.240 transcripts for each episode. These are useful beyond just the podcast, especially given the technical

00:03:09.180 nature of many of our shows. Members also get exclusive access to listen to and participate

00:03:15.940 in the regular ask me anything episodes. That means asking questions directly into the AMA portal

00:03:22.660 and also getting to hear these podcasts when they come out. Lastly, and this is something I'm really

00:03:28.000 excited about. I want my supporters to get the best deals possible on the products that I love.

00:03:32.800 And as I said, we're not taking ad dollars from anyone, but instead, what I'd like to do is work

00:03:37.360 with companies who make the products that I already love and would already talk about for free and have

00:03:43.220 them pass savings on to you. Again, the podcast will remain free to all, but my hope is that many of

00:03:51.000 you will find enough value in one, the podcast itself, and two, the additional content exclusive

00:03:57.900 for members to support us at a level that makes sense for you. I want to thank you for taking a moment

00:04:02.960 to listen to this. If you learn from and find value in the content I produce, please consider

00:04:08.480 supporting us directly by signing up for a monthly subscription. I guess this week is Jocko and like

00:04:14.080 Madonna, sting or share. He's one of those rare individuals that only needs to go by one name.

00:04:18.780 For those not familiar with Jocko, he spent 20 years in the SEAL teams where he was a commander of

00:04:23.260 SEAL team three's task unit bruiser, I believe, which led the battle of Ramadi becoming one of the more

00:04:29.780 decorated special operations units of the Iraq war. Jocko returned from the Iraq war, served as an

00:04:34.640 officer in charge of training SEALs on the West coast. And ultimately when he stepped down from

00:04:39.480 that role, he co-founded Echelon Front, a leadership consulting company. Along the way, he's become a

00:04:44.100 New York times bestselling author on leadership and has also written a number of frankly, fantastic

00:04:49.260 kids books, which my kids adore. He hosts the Jocko podcast, which is an amazing podcast. And of all the

00:04:57.220 podcasts I've ever been on, that episode that I did with Jocko is certainly one of my favorites. He's a

00:05:03.060 black belt in jujitsu and the co-founder of Victory MMA in San Diego. I met Jocko maybe four years ago

00:05:08.760 through another mutual friend, Kirk Parsley himself, a SEAL. This podcast was a ton of fun. It also took a

00:05:15.540 while. We sort of lost track of time. And before you knew it, I realized this was going to have to be released

00:05:19.800 over two weeks and not just one. In this second installment, Jocko and I discuss 9-11 and the war in Iraq,

00:05:26.040 the future of machines in war, as well as medicine, raising kids. We talk about one thing that I get

00:05:32.060 pinged about constantly to talk about with Jocko, which is sleep. We talk about giving up. We talk

00:05:36.960 about free will mindset. We talk about his indulgences, fasting, and we end up with a quick

00:05:43.780 guest Q and a with my daughter, Olivia, who was waiting all day to meet Jocko and couldn't wait

00:05:49.480 to poke her head in when she got home from school. So without further delay, please enjoy the second

00:05:54.620 installment of my discussion with Jocko. Where were you on 9-11 physically, like the moment you

00:06:02.800 heard? So I was in college at the time. So I was in the Navy. I had got my commission. In order to

00:06:08.120 have your commission in the military, you have to go to college. I hadn't been to college yet.

00:06:11.040 Meaning because you were enlisted, you couldn't get above a certain level.

00:06:14.420 No, I literally had to go. They told me I had to go because I tried to not go.

00:06:18.060 Okay. They said, you got to go to college. And I said, I'll just stay in. I don't need to go to

00:06:21.640 college. Don't worry about me. You don't have to pay for it. We're all good. And they said,

00:06:24.040 no idiot. You have to go to college. I said, okay, fine. So I was going to college at the

00:06:28.160 university of San Diego. I think I was waiting in my car for class and heard about it in the

00:06:33.740 morning. Like when I woke up, meaning you heard a plane, a plane hit the tower. Okay, cool. I

00:06:38.000 figured it was a prop. Yeah. I think it was a Cessna or whatever. Some idiot was trying to

00:06:42.380 sightsee or whatever. So that would have been like 6am your time. Yeah. Yeah. So now it's

00:06:47.080 7.30 AM your time, 1030 or whatever time on the East coast. And yeah, the second plane hits and I

00:06:53.780 go, okay, we're under attack. You knew at that moment. Exactly. As soon as the other one hit,

00:06:58.000 I was like, oh yeah, this is an attack. I didn't even think I knew that it was a passenger plane

00:07:02.160 yet. Cause it wasn't like I woke up, saw that something happened and said, okay, I'm going to

00:07:05.240 sit down and watch the news now. Cause every day something happens that could be the first indicating

00:07:09.460 signs of a major problem, right? I mean, you just can't track everything. A shooting happens

00:07:13.860 somewhere. Well, generally the shooting happens and they arrest someone or someone gets killed.

00:07:17.580 And then that's not the beginning of a massive terrorist attack. So when the first plane hit,

00:07:22.280 I didn't think about it. I was like, oh wow, that sucks. But as soon as the second one hit,

00:07:26.540 I realized, yeah, we were under attack. And how long until you could actually see the images on TV?

00:07:31.580 I would say by 11 o'clock. I mean, by the time I saw it on TV, the towers were still up. I don't know

00:07:37.800 how long did it take for them to fall? I do it in East coast time, but the towers were still up when I saw it

00:07:42.300 on TV. Yeah. Yeah. Which still kind of mitigated the tragedy, right? It was much less visually

00:07:49.840 striking, right? The towers were hit. They're on fire. Okay. We're going to put out the fire.

00:07:54.520 The horrible that these people were killed in a plane. Oh my gosh. I bet some of those people on

00:07:59.080 the towers were killed as well. That's horrible. Still the intensity when the towers collapsed was

00:08:05.660 really intensifying. It was an intensifying thing. It's interesting that you immediately understood

00:08:11.120 what was happening. I have another friend who was a Marine and he just happened to be in Australia

00:08:15.620 for some training gig on 9-11. His reaction was, I mean, I'm amazed at the insight, right? Which was,

00:08:22.980 he realized, oh, it's never going to be the same. He understood that to be a Pearl Harbor like moment.

00:08:28.280 Yeah. Which you did as well. I mean, that's. Yeah. Yeah.

00:08:30.680 I can honestly say I couldn't even think like, I just didn't know what to think. I was deer in

00:08:37.260 headlights. Like I was just, you know, I was thinking much more about, I remember cause I was

00:08:41.300 in the hospital. It was like, oh my God, are we going to need to open up a bigger burn unit? Like

00:08:45.400 I was just thinking about a bunch of dumb blocking and tackling stuff, purely tactical, right? Purely

00:08:50.240 tactical, not a strategic thought in my body. Yeah. And yet now in retrospect, it seems so obvious.

00:08:56.260 Yeah. I thought I was pretty cool because at the time there's a guy called a detailer,

00:09:01.940 which is someone that's in charge of your actual billet in the military. So you're going to get

00:09:08.600 assigned a job and the person that assigns you your job at a seal team or at a forward base or

00:09:13.780 whatever is going to be the guy called the detailer. The officer detailer at the time was a guy that I

00:09:19.340 had worked for, who was a friend of mine, who was a, just a fantastic guy. Great guy,

00:09:24.140 had a great relationship with him. And I called him up and said, Hey, sir, it's Jocko. Get me out of

00:09:30.460 college. I'll go to college later. I'll do online college. Don't worry about any of that. Please,

00:09:35.880 please, please get me back to a seal team right now. Please. You're having this call the evening

00:09:40.620 of September 11th. Within a day or two, I was making the call and begging him to please get me

00:09:45.820 out of college and send me to a seal team where I can go and deploy. And he told me, Hey, finish

00:09:54.020 college. This war is going to last a long time. And so here's a guy that was more mature than me and

00:09:59.760 smarter than me. And I still didn't believe him. But the reason I started off by saying I thought

00:10:03.740 I was cool because I saw him and his wife the other day and I was talking to him and I was talking to

00:10:10.700 both of them and saying, Hey, I remember on September 11th, I called and asked you please

00:10:15.920 to send me to a seal team. And this is where I thought I was cool. And he said, you know how many

00:10:21.520 people called me that day? Everyone called him. So again, when you talk about like the attitude

00:10:25.840 that right there is another great example of like every seal officer that was anywhere,

00:10:30.060 but at a seal team called up and said, please send me to a seal team right now.

00:10:33.020 So did you finish college? Yep. Yep. So you returned to the seal team. What year?

00:10:37.880 Spring of 2003. So six months after the Iraqi invasion, right after the Iraqi invasion,

00:10:43.480 I showed up at the seal team. Explain for people listening who aren't familiar with the nomenclature.

00:10:49.080 So the people have heard of obviously seal team six got a lot of discussion. What are the numbers

00:10:53.940 mean? How big is a team? So I would say the biggest misconception is people think that a

00:10:59.260 seal team, what you think of a seal team, people think of a seal platoon or a seal task unit,

00:11:03.700 which is like, Oh, you think you're a team? 12 guys, 12 guys. An actual seal team is a bunch

00:11:09.240 of platoons and all the platoons generally don't work together. So you'll work maybe in one,

00:11:14.540 two or three platoons. Sometimes occasionally you might do something bigger than that. Seal teams have

00:11:18.200 done some operations that were bigger than that coordinated, but generally you're just going to be

00:11:22.480 one, two or three seal platoons operating. So that's what it is. The seal teams, the odd

00:11:27.240 numbered seal teams are on the West coast. The even number seal teams are on the East coast.

00:11:31.160 And are they numbered in the order of like the first one was just seal team. And then the second

00:11:36.120 one became two and then three seal team one and seal team two were commissioned at the same time,

00:11:40.020 meaning back in the sixties, back in the sixties. Yeah. Yeah. So that's what it is. As we grew,

00:11:45.180 they've made more seal teams. And there are how many today? Four per coast. So there's up to eight.

00:11:49.800 Yeah. You were on more than one, weren't you? I was at seal team one, seal team two,

00:11:54.680 seal team seven and seal team three in that order. Yep. So you finished at three. Okay. Yep. So

00:11:59.920 when you're coming out of college in Oh three, you are going into seal team. I went to seal team seven.

00:12:06.060 Yep. And I showed up at seal team seven, the seal team at the time. So you do a workup to prepare,

00:12:11.640 to go on deployment. And these guys were just about done with their workup.

00:12:15.440 So what happened was the commander of seal team seven was another guy that I had worked for

00:12:22.980 and was pretty close with. And I showed up at his seal team without a seal platoon. So I was just a

00:12:29.600 guy. I was going to go on deployment, do whatever I could. And I remember I was walking, we were

00:12:34.600 walking across the walkway there and he said, you look mad, Jocko. What's wrong? He goes, what can I do

00:12:40.480 for you? That's what he said. He said, what can I do for you? And I said, give me a one-way ticket to Iraq,

00:12:43.380 which is of course, again, this is what everyone was saying at the time. And then he said, stand

00:12:47.180 by. And I was kind of interested in that reply. Fast forward a little bit. He ended up firing one

00:12:53.200 of the platoon commanders and put me in charge of a platoon. So I took over a platoon that was getting

00:12:57.860 ready to deploy. And again, I'm the luckiest guy in the world because to show up at a seal team and

00:13:03.280 get a seal platoon that's getting ready to deploy to Iraq, it doesn't get much better than that.

00:13:07.260 It really doesn't.

00:13:08.280 Did you spend any time in Afghanistan?

00:13:09.820 I went to Afghanistan, but I didn't fight there at all.

00:13:11.640 I flew through there to do some visits with some senior personnel, but I never did anything

00:13:16.800 there. No.

00:13:17.600 And when you talk to guys that saw combat in both, how do they compare it?

00:13:21.840 The funny thing was guys that were with me in task unit bruiser that then went over to

00:13:26.460 Afghanistan, the principles of combat don't change. One of the big things was one of my buddies

00:13:32.080 described it as in Ramadi, it was like, oh, you got streets and you got buildings. That's your low

00:13:36.960 ground and then your high ground. In Afghanistan, you had valleys and peaks and don't want to dominate

00:13:41.380 the high ground just like you did in the city. You want to get good angles. I mean, the geometry

00:13:45.440 is the same, but the distances are further. And then one of my other guys that went directly from

00:13:51.540 pretty close to thereafter went from Ramadi. He said that in the urban combat, the rapidity

00:13:58.020 with which things unfold is a lot tighter. So you don't have much time to make decisions.

00:14:02.540 There's a building right there. There's a guy in it. Things don't unfold for very long. Whereas

00:14:05.840 in Afghanistan, unless you're in the urban part of Afghanistan or you're in a small village,

00:14:09.500 it's the same thing. At distances, you have a little bit more time to think, but they both

00:14:14.120 have incredible challenges and both situations were brutal in many ways.

00:14:19.660 How many troops are still in Afghanistan? American troops?

00:14:22.140 I don't know what the number is right now.

00:14:23.360 As low as it's been presumably since the invasion.

00:14:25.420 Yeah, low.

00:14:26.140 What are the differences and similarities between the American experience in Afghanistan and the

00:14:31.380 Russian one a decade earlier slash Soviet, I guess, to be more precise. Because the Soviets

00:14:36.780 in Afghanistan struck me a lot like Vietnam.

00:14:39.540 Yeah, it was harsh, very harsh. The tough thing is that the differences between the US military and

00:14:46.660 the Soviet military is pretty immense. One of the books that I covered on my podcast

00:14:52.560 is written by a Russian soldier that fought in Chechnya. And it's a crazy book. And this guy,

00:15:01.100 his name is Arkady Babchenko, I think is his name. And the reason that it's interesting is,

00:15:07.860 do you remember not too long ago, maybe a year ago, there was a journalist that was assassinated

00:15:12.340 in Ukraine?

00:15:15.460 I don't think I remember this.

00:15:16.740 Yeah. So this journalist was assassinated in Ukraine and it was this guy, Babchenko,

00:15:20.840 who had written this book, which is just an incredible book. And he was assassinated by Russians.

00:15:28.420 And it turns out that he faked his own assassination so that he could like prove something. And he's just

00:15:34.820 crazy, like Russian guy.

00:15:36.220 So he's in hiding right now?

00:15:37.340 Yeah, he's in hiding right now. But anyways, he wrote this incredible book. What was really crazy

00:15:41.740 about this book is these soldiers in the Russian army, you're out fighting this brutal enemy,

00:15:46.760 which was the insurgency in Chechnya. They're sawing heads off of people. It's as bad as you can make

00:15:53.360 it. And then they come back at night and their sergeants beat them and their captains beat them

00:15:59.180 and they're just abused and they're drinking vodka. It's a horrible situation. Book's called

00:16:03.900 One Soldier's War. And it's just a book that's, it really shows you the difference between the

00:16:10.780 American military and the Russian military. And you know what? The Russians are hard people. I think

00:16:15.700 everyone knows that. There's a part where he rattles off, the sergeants beat the corporals,

00:16:20.620 the staff sergeants beat the sergeants, the lieutenants beat the, and he just goes right

00:16:26.300 down the chain of command. Everyone is getting beaten. Like really, they're going to beat their

00:16:30.620 shit out of you. Why? Because they're bored. Why? Because you didn't get water for them when

00:16:36.720 they wanted you to, you're going to get beaten and that's what they're living through. So you have

00:16:41.480 that going into Afghanistan. So the point too, is that you're saying the morale is

00:16:45.140 morale is freaking horrible. The morale is absolutely freaking horrible. The other thing

00:16:52.240 is like, who ends up in the fighting units in the Russian military? It's the downtrodden people.

00:16:58.520 It's the misconception that people think in America and people think, well, in America,

00:17:02.140 it's only the poor people that go in the military. It's like, no, there's all kinds of people in the

00:17:05.640 military and it's voluntary. So you can go, you can not go in Russia. It's like, oh, if you got money,

00:17:10.720 you're not going in there. If you're a prominent person, your kids aren't going in the military.

00:17:14.420 It's only the people that didn't have any other choice that are going to end up there.

00:17:17.860 So yeah, their morale was really bad. And then fighting against the Afghans who are hardened

00:17:22.600 fighters and kind of like the Russians use their terrain and their environment as their defense.

00:17:30.180 So the Afghans do the same thing, which is, Hey, we have mountains, we have hills. And then they got

00:17:35.060 the stinger missiles from us. And it's like, the movie, Charlie Wilson's word does a pretty good job

00:17:39.500 of actually showing some of that stuff. Yeah. It's sort of hard to believe. I remember hearing

00:17:44.400 a story. I don't know if it's correct that sometimes the stingers would miss fire and blow

00:17:50.020 up. Sorry, I shouldn't say it would fire. So you would get the shot off, but the device would

00:17:54.340 actually blow up. So the guy who fires, it dies. So he hits his target, but dies. And the story was

00:18:00.300 initially the Mujahideen thought that that was actually a feature of like, that's how willing

00:18:08.220 they were to die. Right. It was like, wait, I get to blow up a Russian airplane and die at the same

00:18:13.980 time. Yeah. Yeah. Bonus bonus program. And they're like, no, no, no, no, no. Sorry. That's a

00:18:19.000 miss. We have to fix the issue there. That's not the way it's supposed to be. It's another classic

00:18:22.820 case of insurgents. And you, you find out that this big organization can't maneuver like you can.

00:18:30.840 That's how you beat them. Right. That's how you beat them. I was talking with a company about that

00:18:34.600 the other day. I'm like, okay, here's what you're up against. You're up against Titans and you will

00:18:40.020 not beat them in a war of attrition. They can outspend you. They can out hire you. They can

00:18:45.040 outwork you. They can outproduce you literally. So the only way you're going to beat them is you

00:18:50.140 have to be more maneuverable than them. You have to find out what their weaknesses are because they

00:18:53.980 do have weaknesses. Because when you're that big, guess what? You're not mobile anymore.

00:18:57.640 So how are you going to attack their weaknesses? That's what you have to figure out

00:19:01.400 because you can't beat them in a war of attrition. So it's the same thing, right? That's the same

00:19:06.280 thing with what we ran into in Vietnam. We cannot beat them in a war of attrition because they don't

00:19:11.120 care. And what do they do? They find our weaknesses. What do they realize? We do care. And once we

00:19:16.500 realize we do care, cool, you can kill 200 of us and we'll kill one of you. And eventually you're

00:19:22.140 going to grow tired of it. That's the reality. Why do you think that vets who came back from Vietnam

00:19:28.480 had such a horrible experience compared to vets coming back from Iraq? So you could argue you saw

00:19:34.960 similar things that upset the public, right? So the public saw, oh, of course, it's always these

00:19:40.760 things are blown out of proportion, right? Because you're seeing a snapshot of something. You don't

00:19:43.980 necessarily know that that represents the person that's in front of you now, let alone the majority

00:19:47.920 of the people that were fighting. But you had these people coming back from Vietnam that were

00:19:52.460 pariahs. And fortunately, it doesn't seem like the vets coming back from Iraq and Afghanistan

00:19:57.940 were treated that way. The vets coming back nowadays have been treated great.

00:20:02.320 What do you think is the transition? Is that a transition in simply the American psyche?

00:20:07.440 A little bit of the American psyche, the wars for sure.

00:20:10.220 But why were the Vietnam vets treated so poorly?

00:20:13.300 People hated the war.

00:20:14.620 Most people hate Iraq and Afghanistan wars as well, right?

00:20:17.380 And I don't think people have made that connection of, hey, just because a guy went to fight doesn't

00:20:22.220 mean that the war is on his shoulders. Now, some people say, oh, that's crap. And I hear that all

00:20:27.280 the time. Like if, oh, if you didn't believe in the war, then why did you go fight? Right?

00:20:31.200 And some people make the distinction of like, hey, listen, this is a soldier out there doing

00:20:34.660 his job. So don't get mad at him. You want to get mad at someone, get mad at the politicians.

00:20:38.640 So I think we, people made that distinction. And there's some people that still make the

00:20:42.560 distinction like, oh, if you went and fought, then you supported the war and you deserve the

00:20:47.260 hatred from me because I don't agree with the war. But I think less people believe that

00:20:51.520 now or less people act that way now than did during Vietnam. I had one seal on my podcast.

00:20:57.680 There's a Vietnam guy that was just a legendary Vietnam guy named Roger Hayden, who was one

00:21:02.880 of the guys that I looked up to. And when I was a young seal, he came on and talked about

00:21:07.880 Vietnam. And I said, well, what was it like when you came home? He's like, oh, no one protested

00:21:11.900 to him. No one never saw anything. And again, you're living in San Diego. He's a seal. You're

00:21:16.940 kind of in a nice little environment. But I covered another book on my podcast where the

00:21:21.020 guy lost his arm, came home to Vietnam. He's going to college and like literally gets spit

00:21:25.360 on. And so it definitely was a thing, but that generally doesn't happen anymore. You

00:21:30.560 see it a little bit more, you know, see some of the radical extremist left wing people that

00:21:36.080 still might hold a grudge against the frontline soldier. But I think people realize that that's

00:21:42.160 not a good target for your anger. It's an ineffective target for your anger, right?

00:21:46.680 And I'm guessing that when you guys were there, when you were deployed, you didn't spend a

00:21:51.620 lot of time talking about your own political views because obviously you guys are pretty

00:21:56.800 well informed. In fact, you're seeing things in person that you can tell people are missing

00:22:02.740 back home, right? Scenarios like actual interactions. You know what the insurgents look like.

00:22:07.560 And we know what the insurgents are doing to the civilian populace, which will change your

00:22:11.220 mindset on what we should be doing. So when you, when you know that the insurgents have

00:22:16.000 decapitated the head of the household in a neighborhood with five families that starts

00:22:20.840 to leave, or you know that they skin the guy alive. When you hear that, you go, okay, we

00:22:25.600 should be doing something about this. We have some kind of an obligation to help these people

00:22:29.540 that are under the oppressive insurgency that's here. And you see a little kid, you see these

00:22:36.460 little families just trying to live their normal lives and you think we can help them. They

00:22:41.020 don't want these insurgents there. They hated the insurgents, but they couldn't do anything

00:22:45.000 about it. And so we can. So that does leave an impression on you.

00:22:49.740 Did you generally feel welcome where you were?

00:22:52.920 Yes. In Baghdad, because most of my first deployment I spent in and around Baghdad and

00:22:57.880 my second deployment, I spent the entire deployment in Ramadi and the civilian populace wanted us

00:23:03.760 there without question. In fact, there was a great piece on vice, you know, vice news.

00:23:09.960 They did this piece when ISIS was coming to Ramadi and there was a guy in there and I thought,

00:23:16.100 oh, this is going to be an interesting thing. Cause you know, vice is kind of a left leaning

00:23:19.980 organization. And I still watch them to hear what their perspective is. Sometimes they have a good

00:23:25.860 perspective on things. And they did this great piece of this guy who was in Ramadi as ISIS was

00:23:32.020 approaching. And he was showing all the townspeople and he was showing like the mayor or the governor

00:23:37.380 of the city of Ramadi. He's on the phone, placing phone calls, trying to get America to come back.

00:23:43.180 Please, please come back. The guys in the streets were saying, we hope America comes.

00:23:47.400 And you know what? America didn't come. And ISIS came into Ramadi and completely annihilated it.

00:23:53.620 We got reports from people that we knew that were there that when ISIS got there, they went out and

00:24:00.720 had retribution on families that had worked with coalition forces. And they ended up murdering

00:24:05.760 about 500 families, men, women, and children. What is the presence of ISIS in Iraq today?

00:24:11.320 Nil.

00:24:12.100 Are they mostly in Syria?

00:24:13.520 No, they're dead.

00:24:14.540 Really?

00:24:15.040 Yes.

00:24:15.420 Cause I had read something quite recently that said, no, there's a real pocket of them and they're

00:24:21.180 sort of hiding somewhere, but.

00:24:22.620 They were killing thousands and thousands of ISIS fighters. It was a beautiful situation because

00:24:29.320 the ISIS fighters became a conventional army for the most part, right? They got vehicles,

00:24:35.800 they had flags, they had uniforms.

00:24:38.040 So that was their strategic error.

00:24:39.500 Instead of it being in an asymmetrical situation, we were fighting against another army.

00:24:44.160 So it was like fighting a nation state.

00:24:45.240 Yes.

00:24:45.540 That was inferior.

00:24:46.380 Yes. Yes. And so we killed, I would say somewhere around 50,000 of them.

00:24:53.060 These are black uniform, ISIS flag carrying, took back the city of Ramadi, took back Mosul.

00:24:59.700 So that's, that's what it was.

00:25:01.480 If you went back to Iraq today, let's say you went with your family,

00:25:04.980 where would you want to go? What would you want to see again?

00:25:07.400 Uh, Ramadi. I'd go to Ramadi. Then I'd go to Baghdad. Have you been there before?

00:25:11.060 I've never been to Iraq.

00:25:11.900 What was surprising about Baghdad is Baghdad was a very westernized city.

00:25:15.600 Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, Iraq was very secular. You're from California or you live in California.

00:25:19.880 You would be driving down a highway around Baghdad. And if it was nighttime, you'd think

00:25:23.900 I could easily be on the I-5 here in California.

00:25:26.780 A guy in my residency program was from Baghdad. And also I just, my parents being from Egypt,

00:25:31.140 they would say, look, Iraq is by far the most secular, wonderful place in the Middle East.

00:25:36.580 Like such a stark contrast to Iran, such a stark contrast.

00:25:40.480 For sure. And in the seventies, even more so. So what your parents probably remember is like

00:25:45.320 kind of Iraq and its heyday when it was kind of open and it was doing business with other

00:25:49.560 countries and everything. That's, you know, I remember even after the first Gulf war, my parents

00:25:54.240 saying, look, Saddam Hussein is a horrible creature, but surprisingly he is not religiously like

00:26:03.240 he doesn't kill Christians. He sort of just lets people be sort of religiously what they want.

00:26:08.580 And maybe that wasn't entirely correct, but their view was he was not as horrible as we thought,

00:26:15.700 which again, maybe he was. I just remember my parents placing such a premium on the fact

00:26:21.640 that he was religiously more tolerant than other leaders in the Middle East. Now, again, I think

00:26:27.480 that's always colored through your lens, right? That's colored through the lens of your experience

00:26:31.460 in religious prosecution. But it does beg the question, which I think most people agree now,

00:26:36.800 he was sort of bluffing with his weapons of mass destruction, right? I mean, this was sort of his

00:26:40.100 way of showing strength to his people and potentially to his enemies.

00:26:44.020 Who he had used them on.

00:26:45.220 Yeah.

00:26:45.520 Right. So it's like, as much as you, again, this is going back to hindsight's 2020. Well,

00:26:50.160 if he's saying that he has weapons of mass destruction.

00:26:55.020 And he's certainly used chemical weapons.

00:26:56.720 And he has used them before. And he's saying that he has them. Well, then it's like,

00:27:00.680 okay, I guess he has them. And there you go.

00:27:05.240 But again, it just playing these stupid thought experiments. It's like,

00:27:07.920 if he could have seen how it was going to end, wouldn't he have just come up with some sort of

00:27:13.060 solution? That's like, you know what?

00:27:14.820 Absolutely.

00:27:15.300 Yeah. Let the UN inspectors in.

00:27:17.420 Of course he would have. Well, at least you'd like to think he was because he'd managed to

00:27:20.980 maintain power in that country for a long time. He made some good decisions along the way. And he just

00:27:25.700 screwed that one up because he held the line of saying, look, I have these and they're mine and you

00:27:30.180 can't come in here and inspect. And it was a bad call.

00:27:33.360 Good God. So what does the future of warfare look like? I mean, when you think about the fact that

00:27:39.200 we are still at war, most people, most of us as civilians were just so separated from it. We don't

00:27:44.680 remember it. We just don't think about it. But the lessons of the past 20 years, how have they shaped

00:27:51.060 what could be the potential for future conflicts? In other words, are there people in the military that

00:27:55.640 are spending a lot of time thinking very strategically about what military conflict

00:28:01.160 is going to look like for the United States in the next 25 years?

00:28:03.860 Yeah, for sure. I mean, it's really hard to predict exactly what it's going to be like,

00:28:07.560 but let's face it. We're going to have technology. We already have drones that are running around,

00:28:11.780 can shoot weapons, and that's the way it's going to be. Right. And will we have robots? Yes,

00:28:16.320 we will. What's a robot versus a drone? I mean, it seems like the drones are going to be

00:28:19.600 the more powerful in the air, air control. So yeah, you're going to end up with drones

00:28:23.640 killing each other, and hopefully the drones will all fight the wars and the drones versus

00:28:27.340 the robots. Will you eventually have all your drones destroyed? Possibly. Will all your robots

00:28:33.400 be defeated? Possibly. And then what do you do? You're going to be a human being on the ground.

00:28:37.200 The drones really came into their maturity, maybe the lack of the wrong word, but the drones really

00:28:41.900 made a big step forward in this past decade or the past 15 years. For sure. What has been the net

00:28:47.480 impact of that? Has it been more positive or more negative? Because you certainly hear extreme

00:28:51.180 stories on both sides, right? Well, less people at risk directly, but oh, less discernment in the

00:28:55.960 field. Definitely less people in danger, right? For the good guys, quote, good guys. What scares

00:29:01.920 people isn't the fact that the drone just is less discriminant than a human. I think it's just the

00:29:08.640 fact that it's a drone because that's what scares people. Hey, a machine can come and kill me

00:29:13.240 with no thought, no guilt, no remorse can just do it. Yeah. That's scary to a lot of people.

00:29:19.500 I think it's the way that the future wars are going to be fought. Yeah.

00:29:25.440 It's interesting because even when you take a step back and ask a broader question, which is

00:29:29.260 who will the United States be fighting in 25 years? Let me ask you this. So a human being could

00:29:34.560 do a surgery, right? And a robot could do a surgery. The robot can only do it through a surgeon's

00:29:41.140 hands. So the surgeon is still sitting there at a console operating, which is presumably the same

00:29:46.140 thing a drone is. A drone is not autonomous, right? Yeah. Yeah. True. I guess where I was going with

00:29:51.080 this is that's kind of like with handmade cars versus cars that are made by a machine. And everyone

00:29:56.860 thinks that the handmade things are better. And the reality is they're not. Yeah. And so I've seen

00:30:04.020 some things. Who was I talking to? I was talking to someone that said, if you don't have this type of

00:30:08.800 technology, if you have a human being doing this procedure on you, you're in the wrong place.

00:30:13.480 Maybe it was you that was telling me that. Well, you know what it comes down to? It comes down to

00:30:16.600 you have to ask yourself the question, what problem is being solved by the introduction of this

00:30:21.100 technology? So we love technology, right? So yeah, when robotic surgery devices came along,

00:30:26.020 the initial thought I think was this is going to completely replace surgery, but you have to take a

00:30:32.160 step back and say, well, wait a minute. There are certain operations for which the robot makes

00:30:36.600 so much sense because there are certain things that the robot can do so much better. And you have

00:30:41.960 to pair those things with it. So the best example I can think of is probably the radical prostatectomy.

00:30:48.740 And a man has prostate cancer and you want to remove it, but remove it not by going from the outside of

00:30:55.260 him, like not by taking the shortest path to the prostate, but by going sort of through the

00:30:59.800 retroperitoneum in the abdomen, that is such a hard operation to do with your hands, which is the

00:31:06.960 way it has always been done. And to this day, some people still do it that way because it's so hard

00:31:11.340 to see what the hell is going on. It's like operating in a deep, dark hole. That's bloody. It's just

00:31:17.360 miserable, right? Well, what does the robot do? The robot allows you to have much finer motor control

00:31:24.500 and much better visibility. Well, that operation is tailor-made for that. But there are some

00:31:30.620 operations like breast augmentation, visibility and tactile ability to do the operation are not

00:31:37.220 remotely problematic, right? It's a surface operation. So could you, for giggles and self-promotion

00:31:44.440 or whatever, say we're doing robot-assisted breast augmentation? Sure. Is it an advantage? No.

00:31:50.720 It's a drawback. I guess where I was trying to go with that, and I think I might've failed, but-

00:31:56.100 I mean, I think your point is there are probably applications where drones and robots make way more

00:32:01.560 sense, but there are probably places where the opposite is true, right? The point I was trying

00:32:05.360 to make was we inherently trust another human being more than we trust a robot, even though the robot

00:32:11.880 might be able to do a better job, right? I mean, if a robot kills someone on the operating table,

00:32:17.120 then it's like, oh my God, how could that? But we know that surgeons kill people on the operating

00:32:22.000 table as well. And you think, oh, well, it must've been an accident or whatever. So we inherently trust

00:32:27.560 that the human being is going to do a better job than the robot's going to do.

00:32:30.940 But when robots do things in combat that get people harmed, is the mistake usually the human

00:32:37.600 mistake on the other end or is-

00:32:39.260 At this juncture, yes. Just like in most cases with a robot surgery, it's like, hey, the surgeon

00:32:43.360 put in the wrong input, right? But in the future, it may be that you're actually having this drone

00:32:50.840 make a little bit more of the decision, and that really can scare some people. I think people

00:32:56.040 inherently don't trust robots to make decisions that are life and death.

00:33:00.200 Yeah, no, like this is not something I know anything about, but I love-

00:33:03.180 Okay, driverless cars.

00:33:04.720 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:33:05.180 Okay, let's just do that one, right? Driverless cars. Okay, which one?

00:33:09.460 I'll take driverless cars all day long.

00:33:10.780 There you go.

00:33:11.360 No questions asked.

00:33:12.140 And yet, when a driverless car gets in an accident, it's on the front page, right? It's on the

00:33:17.660 front page because, oh my God, this thing, let this happen. What, 50,000 people die every

00:33:21.660 year?

00:33:22.120 No, it's more than that.

00:33:23.380 Okay, so whatever the number is, it's a crazy number.

00:33:25.560 I think it's about a little over a million people die a year in the world in car accidents.

00:33:30.880 And yet-

00:33:31.520 It's like 1.2 million.

00:33:32.500 One Tesla hits a wall somewhere because the program failed or whatever happened, happened.

00:33:37.840 And it's on the front page and we don't trust that. But we trust a 16-year-old.

00:33:42.540 Oh yeah, no, no. That's the most egregious, the best example of the lot, right?

00:33:45.820 Yeah, yeah.

00:33:46.220 So we can't predict what the world's going to look like in 25 years, let alone who our

00:33:52.400 quote-unquote enemies are going to be or what the tools and technologies of warfare are going to be.

00:33:56.320 How much time do you spend thinking about the fact that one day you're not going to be around for

00:34:02.340 your kids? Hopefully, right? Hopefully your kids outlive you. You don't know what the world's going

00:34:06.660 to look like, but you want to prepare them to be successful in whatever way that means to you,

00:34:13.980 right? Could mean being happy, can mean being safe. It can mean being productive, having a sense of

00:34:18.960 purpose. How do you think about instilling that into your kids today? And so much of what we think of

00:34:25.280 the work you do is with the world's best teams, right? Military, business, et cetera. But in many

00:34:32.460 ways, probably your greatest lessons probably come around a kitchen table.

00:34:36.480 Well, this is why I wrote the kids' books that I've written. It's because the things that I think

00:34:42.360 kids need to know in order to become good humans, I put them in those books and they are very clear,

00:34:50.900 very simple lessons that are very easy to understand. They're timeless. And that's why I did it. That

00:34:56.720 makes it... I had a guy ask me the other day, I was at a speaking at a company and a guy said,

00:35:01.940 you know, these things that you talk about, they're so powerful and they're so meaningful.

00:35:07.380 And these theories and these principles that you live by are just so important. What are you doing

00:35:14.420 to transfer these to kids? And I was like, well, luckily you don't know this, but I've written

00:35:18.660 four kids' books and that's exactly what they are, these principles. So

00:35:22.420 way of the warrior kid, that's what it is.

00:35:25.820 What do your kids think about? Because you're their dad, right? You're not Jocko,

00:35:30.940 your dad. That's really different. And that means that they get pissed off at you. And that means that

00:35:36.080 they think you're being unfair at times. And that means...

00:35:39.280 You notice the hesitation in my voice when I said they get pissed off at me? They don't really get

00:35:43.760 pissed off at me. I don't impose things that don't make sense on them. And the things that I

00:35:50.740 steer them towards, they know that they're correct. And so you can't get mad at someone for

00:35:58.580 telling you something that's going to help you. And I think they've all grown up enough. And one thing I

00:36:05.520 was careful as they got older is to make sure that they developed their own interpretation of what I

00:36:13.920 was saying. I didn't want to impose things because I did that too much when they were little. When they

00:36:18.560 were little, I forced jujitsu on them too hard. And not only that, but I made them train. I made them

00:36:25.620 compete. I made them train all the time. I made them compete against people that were older than them,

00:36:31.900 bigger than them, heavier weight classes, more advanced. And so it wasn't fun because they would

00:36:37.120 get beat. And that's not fun. And so as they got a little bit older, as I started to try and actually

00:36:42.400 incorporate the values and the principles that I kind of attempt to live my life by, I was careful

00:36:48.840 not to make the same mistake of imposing these things so hard, but instead allowing them to discover

00:36:54.600 the principles, truths for themselves. So do they see in you vulnerability?

00:37:04.460 I'm not sure. I'm not sure if they do see too much vulnerability in me. I think they know that

00:37:12.620 my best friend died last year and they definitely saw that my heart was crushed. And so I think that was,

00:37:21.760 that was probably the time where they really realized dad's hurt. He's hurt bad. And that's

00:37:29.900 the way it is. Is that vulnerable? Perhaps, I guess. Is that me being a human being? I guess.

00:37:37.160 One of the things my wife talks about with me a lot and reminds me of the importance of is being really

00:37:42.860 good at telling them when I make mistakes and apologizing when I make mistakes, which I make a lot

00:37:47.480 of, right? I mean, I make mistakes all the time, come home in sort of a shitty mood and take it out

00:37:52.780 on them a little bit. And again, it's not like extreme, right? It's not like whack them across

00:37:56.660 the head, but it's just like whack them across the arm or just like, you know, like saying, Hey,

00:38:02.100 how many times have I told you to turn the light off in your room? Okay. Well, 50. So make this the

00:38:07.260 51st, but was that tone necessary? Is there another way I could have said it, right? Well, the reality is

00:38:11.700 I'm pissed off about something totally different and like being able to sort of apologize for that.

00:38:15.660 And that's something that's very new to me. Like it's something I've never really had much practice

00:38:19.840 in. I mean, do you think about stuff like that? Do you feel like to be a good dad, I've got to be

00:38:24.440 able to, to show them all the times I make mistakes and not be afraid of it and let them see that I'm

00:38:29.260 human and that I screw up every day. And, or do you feel that that just comes naturally to you?

00:38:33.860 I mean, I guess that's pretty easy for you. Yeah. I'm not hiding any mistakes. When I screw

00:38:36.680 something up, I laugh at it and say, wow, that was, I'm an idiot. Look at that. To me,

00:38:40.840 that's no factor. I have no ego when it comes to that kind of thing. The big joke in my

00:38:45.640 family is that I don't really like technology. I don't get along well with printers and things

00:38:51.260 like that. So when they don't work, you know, my family laughs at me because I get mad at them.

00:38:55.240 And that's the only time I allow myself to be mad because it's an inanimate object. So I can be mad

00:38:59.940 at something that has no feelings, right? So I have fun with it. So you like that scene in office space?

00:39:04.660 I play a game. I kind of play it up a little bit that technology bothers me. Let's my kids see me get

00:39:08.980 mad and yell at my computer and call it names and just have fun with it. But no, it's no factor to me.

00:39:14.200 One thing I think is that people probably have the impression that I'm some kind of tyrannical

00:39:18.540 authoritarian father and I'm not. It's funny. I wouldn't get that impression actually.

00:39:23.540 Okay. Well, I should rephrase that. You might not think that, but from the surface,

00:39:26.400 when people see me, cause I look like a serial killer and I was in the military for a long time

00:39:31.020 and all that people think, oh, this guy must be a tyrannical dad. And I'm actually very much

00:39:35.700 similar to, well, not even very much similar. Leading a family and leading your kids is the same way you

00:39:40.420 lead an organization, the same way you lead a team. And if you bark orders at your team,

00:39:45.540 your team doesn't like you, they don't respect you. And they're not going to carry out those

00:39:48.760 orders with any sort of commitment. Whereas if you allow them to come up with what the plan is,

00:39:53.320 you let them know what the goal is and you allow them to forge what their idea is and what their

00:39:58.080 plan is going to be, they're going to commit to that plan and they're going to go execute it

00:40:00.780 because it's their plan. And so that's the way you should lead your family. That's the way you

00:40:04.500 should lead your team. That's decentralized command. It's one of the major lessons that I learned

00:40:08.340 in my military career and now working with civilians. The minute you decide you're going

00:40:12.480 to bark orders at people and impose your discipline upon them, they're going to reject it. And so you've

00:40:19.520 got to be careful about that. So let's turn our discussion to a topic that I get asked about

00:40:24.920 more than anything else. Whenever your name comes up, gee, can you guess what this is going to be?

00:40:34.440 Yeah. I was following your Twitter and your Instagram when you were asking, Hey,

00:40:37.820 what do you want to talk about? And what? 50% of the people said, ask them about sleep or tell

00:40:41.600 them to listen to the Dr. Walker, Matt Walker, to talk to Dr. Walker and he should listen to that,

00:40:46.420 which I got that because he was on Joe Rogan as well. And so I got a million tweets about that.

00:40:51.060 And I responded that one of the fun ones I had was you need to listen to Walker on Joe Rogan when it

00:40:57.740 first came out. And I said, I listened to it. And if what that guy was saying was applicable to me,

00:41:05.180 I would be 120 pounds. I would be disease ridden. I would be, I would be weak, depressed and have bad

00:41:13.240 skin. That's what he was saying. And that's where I should be. So.

00:41:17.060 Well, let's talk actually practical. So tell me a typical, let's not get into jet lagged or

00:41:22.360 different time zones or stuff. But when you're in San Diego, what time are you typically going to bed?

00:41:26.040 Go to bed at 11, wake up at 4.30.

00:41:27.700 Okay. You go to bed at 11 and talk to me about the routine before bed. What are you doing?

00:41:31.240 When do you stop looking at electronics? When are you eating your last meal? Like let's go.

00:41:34.820 I usually get home from jujitsu around 7.30 or eight. I eat sometime after that. Usually that's

00:41:41.760 my biggest meal. So there's another big Jocko faux pas. Not necessarily, but we're not passing

00:41:47.600 judgment here. I just want to get the facts. I eat a big meal then. And then I'll do a little bit of

00:41:51.900 work. I'll hang around with my kids. Then I'll do some work. And then when 10.40, 10.30 rolls around,

00:42:00.560 I'll brush my teeth.

00:42:02.320 So you're in bed at 11. You fall asleep pretty quickly?

00:42:04.960 I fall asleep almost immediately.

00:42:06.540 Do you get up at all in the middle of the night?

00:42:09.320 Maybe, but not that big of a deal.

00:42:11.000 You wake up with an alarm or without?

00:42:12.580 I set an alarm. If I don't set an alarm, then I cannot sleep at all.

00:42:16.240 Sorry, say that again. If you don't set the alarm, your anxiety?

00:42:18.800 Yes.

00:42:19.060 Okay. So you set the alarm for what time?

00:42:21.560 4.30.

00:42:22.320 And how many times do you wake up from the alarm versus?

00:42:25.540 50%.

00:42:25.940 And half the time you've just woken up on your own? At what time typically?

00:42:29.000 Between 4 and 4.30.

00:42:30.800 Okay. When you wake up without the alarm, how do you feel?

00:42:34.680 Fine.

00:42:35.040 When you wake up with the alarm, do you feel any different?

00:42:36.860 No.

00:42:37.740 How many times a month do you wake up and feel tired?

00:42:40.660 I don't know. I'm not sure. The tired that I know you're not talking about is physically tired.

00:42:49.060 Meaning, I'm sore. I'm tired. I know that's not what you mean. I know you just mean like,

00:42:54.960 oh, I'm tired. I want to go back to bed. I don't get a lot of that. I'm physically tired. And this

00:43:01.280 is something that when I was going to college, I was training jiu-jitsu two to four hours every

00:43:05.160 single day. And lifting and surfing, do whatever. But the jiu-jitsu was hardcore at the time.

00:43:08.800 And then at the end of one year or whatever, my exams piled up and I had like four days of exams

00:43:15.080 and I had to study and I skipped jiu-jitsu. And like the third day with no jiu-jitsu,

00:43:19.020 I got up out of bed and I was like, dude, I feel like Superman. I was like, why do I feel so awesome?

00:43:24.560 And it's because I'm fully rested. So I usually feel a little bit sore in the morning, but I don't

00:43:30.540 generally feel like, oh, I want to go back to bed right now.

00:43:33.900 Do you ever nap in the day?

00:43:35.020 Yes.

00:43:35.540 What time?

00:43:36.320 It depends. If I'm tired, I nap. I probably nap two days out of seven.

00:43:42.480 Typically, how long is the nap?

00:43:43.720 Eight minutes.

00:43:44.480 Oh, so I wouldn't even call that a nap, but okay. So it's not like a 90 minute nap.

00:43:48.000 Oh, no, no, no. If I take a 90 minute nap, I won't be able to go to sleep at night.

00:43:51.420 If I take a 90 minute nap, I'm up until two o'clock in the morning.

00:43:53.980 So the eight minute nap. Oh, you told me about this once before. Tell us your routine.

00:43:58.400 Elevate your feet above your heart and then set an alarm for eight minutes,

00:44:03.240 10 minutes at the most, maybe 12. But if I do 12, now I feel a little bit groggy when I wake up.

00:44:08.860 Eight minutes, I feel like Superman. I feel like I just slept for eight hours.

00:44:13.860 And you don't consume a hell of a lot of caffeine. You don't drink coffee, right? You're a tea guy.

00:44:17.880 I drink tea when I need it.

00:44:19.740 I mean, you drink white tea and stuff. I mean, the Jocko tea,

00:44:22.460 which I can't believe I didn't ask you to bring more Jocko tea.

00:44:24.600 I got one for you.

00:44:25.360 You did?

00:44:25.900 Yeah.

00:44:26.060 Thanks, brother. I freaking love Jocko tea.

00:44:28.900 Yeah.

00:44:29.160 But you're not a caffeine junkie.

00:44:30.500 Nope. In fact, caffeine has a pretty big effect on me.

00:44:33.260 Stimulating.

00:44:33.700 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Like I feel caffeine. Feel it a lot. So if I'm doing a long drive,

00:44:40.780 I'm going to be awake for more than 24 hours and it's nighttime, I'll drink some caffeine for sure.

00:44:45.780 Was this the same in high school?

00:44:47.140 I don't really remember. Let me rephrase that. I slept just normal, woke up in the morning,

00:44:51.840 did what I had to do, went to bed when I was tired, probably slept somewhat similar to the

00:44:58.260 same hours. Didn't wake up as early, but stayed up later.

00:45:02.140 It's funny. Yeah. I've tried to remember what I was like in high school sleep wise,

00:45:06.160 but I also know I wasn't sleeping a lot. I remember what I did. Like I remember what my

00:45:10.760 bedtime routine was exercise wise and what my morning exercise routine was like. And just doing

00:45:15.480 the math on how many hours it would have taken to do this stuff. I probably only slept six hours a

00:45:20.040 night in high school, which I think today I would caution against. Of course, if I go to bed early

00:45:25.240 for whatever reason, let's say I go to bed at nine 30, I'll wake up at three 30. That's probably a

00:45:32.140 better answer to your question of how often. So basically at six hours, I'm like, that's a normal

00:45:37.060 sleep cycle for me. Six hours. Okay. I'm up. I'm rock and roll. You don't have one of these rings,

00:45:41.300 do you? The aura ring or any of these sleep tracking devices? I do not. Kind of curious to put one

00:45:45.920 on you. I'd be sort of, they're very good at tracking duration of sleep and obviously not

00:45:50.420 entirely accurate on staging, but pretty good. It'd be interesting to see the efficiency of your

00:45:54.960 sleep because I suspect it is efficient if nothing else. My guess is it is. That is my guess

00:46:00.540 is that when I sleep, I sleep hard and I'll wake up. I sweat a lot. I'll have bad dreams and I'll wake up

00:46:07.160 like in a disgusting puddle of sweat sometimes. How many times a month would that happen?

00:46:11.860 Oh, it happens a lot. Yeah. It happens a lot. And yeah. And actually I got the thing that cools

00:46:18.240 your bed and that helps me. Yes. I have a chili pad. Kelly sent me one and that definitely helps.

00:46:24.660 And matter of fact, if I use that, I don't have those things. So that's kind of weird. I don't

00:46:28.180 know how to explain that. Yeah. I'll have a dream that something's happening and I'm running away or I'm

00:46:34.580 pulling myself or I'm engaged in some kind of a combat situation and I'm running out of bullets.

00:46:40.620 I'm out of bullets, like those kinds of nightmares and I'll wake up. The exertion that I put out in

00:46:46.940 the dream is reflected in my sweat when I wake up. So how often are those dreams about scenarios that

00:46:53.900 are real, like that you've seen in the past versus totally contrived? First of all, I don't remember

00:46:59.060 all of them, but I'll remember like that split second when I wake up, I'm like, oh man, I've been

00:47:03.560 running. Oh, okay. Oh yeah. Yeah. This is nasty. Our mutual friend, the person who introduced us

00:47:11.880 is Kirk Parsley. Have you and Kirk spent time talking about this stuff? You know what? We only

00:47:16.740 have a joked back and forth on Twitter. He tells me to sleep more. I tell him no. One of the

00:47:22.100 interesting experiments that Kirk talked about with me many years ago, and I'm going to sort of

00:47:27.560 bastardize it, but the gist of it was they basically took a bunch of guys in the military,

00:47:32.460 highly sleep deprived, and then put them in an environment where they were forced to be in

00:47:39.440 darkness for some period of time. I want to say it was like, I think it was like 10 hours a day or

00:47:43.740 something like that. And the idea was, or maybe it was 12 hours of pure darkness, 12 hours of light,

00:47:48.780 but with no sense of time. I don't think they had access to any clock.

00:47:51.920 And within two weeks, they were all basically sleeping something like seven and a half to nine

00:47:59.440 hours a night, even though they hadn't been sleeping close to that in the past.

00:48:03.300 So it begs the question, right? Have you done the experiment if for no other reason than just out

00:48:08.400 of pure curiosity to what would happen if you slept seven and a half hours a day instead of six,

00:48:15.640 what would be the impact on your memory, your performance?

00:48:18.320 The closest thing I can say to that is like I said, sometimes I'll be really tired and go to

00:48:22.220 bed early and I wake up six hours later. I'll get up and start working because even if I have nothing

00:48:27.720 to do, I'll get up and be like, okay, well, I'm not going to lay here anymore. But no, I haven't

00:48:31.820 done an experiment like that.

00:48:32.960 It'd be interesting to think about how to do it, right? You don't want to conduct that experiment by

00:48:36.540 taking a bunch of Ambien and sleeping 12 hours because that's not sleep either. You've told me before,

00:48:41.300 I think at least one of your kids is similar.

00:48:43.740 Yeah. And so this is when people get mad at me, which they do get mad at me about,

00:48:48.180 they say, you're encouraging people not to sleep. And I'm absolutely not doing that. I think people

00:48:51.780 should sleep as much as you need. I believe that sleep is important. That's why I sleep almost every

00:48:56.520 single day. That's a joke, but I got it. But I was drinking from my Topo Chico.

00:49:02.640 I don't discourage sleep. I think sleep is important. And I, one thing that I've seen is I've seen,

00:49:08.080 I've watched people's cognitive abilities go down when they're tired. I've seen it. I've watched

00:49:15.500 it happen. Like a guy gets tired and all of a sudden he can't make good decisions. I've seen

00:49:20.060 that over and over and over again. So I know that people should sleep and should sleep as much as

00:49:26.300 they need, right? I totally agree with that. I think that there's a chance that people need

00:49:32.080 different amounts of sleep. One of the things that has led me to believe that is that I have four kids

00:49:37.800 each one of my kids has their own sleep pattern that they've developed on their own. I never

00:49:44.260 mandated that my kids wake up when I wake up or anything. My oldest daughter, when she was in high

00:49:50.880 school, I would go to bed at 11 o'clock and she'd be awake studying. And I'd wake up at 4.30 and she'd

00:49:55.580 be awake studying. And she would do that all the time. And she'd go to school, no factor. She does not

00:50:01.440 need sleep like a normal person. My middle daughter, she will sleep until you pull her out

00:50:09.080 of bed. She will go to sleep as early as she wants or she can. And then she'll sleep until you pull her

00:50:14.380 out of bed. My son is somewhere in the middle and my youngest daughter, I don't have any judgment about

00:50:18.740 right now. So there seems to be some genetic role that is in play here because my oldest daughter

00:50:28.720 barely sleeps and my wife sleeps a lot and I barely sleep. So that's just maybe the way it is.

00:50:37.080 Yeah. I would love to, you know, I'm going to be seeing Matt Walker soon and the three of us should

00:50:42.720 just get together and cause I'd love to propose sort of what are things that we could check in you to

00:50:47.600 make sure they're, they're okay. Right. Just out of like total curiosity, right? Like, you know,

00:50:52.020 one of the things we talked about on our podcast was a single night of missed sleep would alter the

00:50:58.200 brain's ability to clear amyloid or maybe it was tau, but something that was sort of toxic to the

00:51:03.320 brain. And you could document this by doing lumbar punctures on patients pre and post, and you can

00:51:07.560 have a root canal and we'll follow it up with a lumbar puncture. But, but one of the things that you

00:51:12.040 propose that can't be discounted, right? I mean, it has to be at least acknowledged as plausible is

00:51:16.360 there have to be differences between people. And it's certainly entirely possible that what you need

00:51:21.800 is different from what I need because I've done the experiment, right? So I used to be the guy

00:51:26.280 that only slept five or six hours a night. But when I did the experiment of sleeping seven and a

00:51:32.560 half to eight and a half hours a night, the benefit was significant enough that it justified the less

00:51:38.520 time. You don't feel groggy when you sleep eight hours. You don't feel like slow. No, you don't feel

00:51:45.080 like a lack of mental clarity. No, you don't feel like you're physically not at your peak when you sleep that

00:51:49.860 much. No. Now, again, the challenge that I have is that I travel a lot. So I don't have the luxury

00:51:57.200 of being in the same time zone. Put it this way. The longest I've been in the same time zone in the

00:52:02.280 past eight years is four weeks. I'm probably worse than that, or at least as bad as that.

00:52:07.800 So that interferes with stuff a little bit. But when I get those like two week stretches where I get to

00:52:12.940 be in one time zone and I can dial in same time every night to go to bed, same time every morning to wake

00:52:18.920 up. I mean, it definitely feels good. And also I look back at my sort of most unhealthy period of

00:52:25.420 my life when I was overweight and heavily insulin resistant and all of those things. And I had

00:52:30.340 historically placed a lot of that blame just on my diet. I now believe at least half of that blame

00:52:37.180 belongs on my sleep deprivation. Sometimes I'll travel and I'll go somewhere and I'll show up and

00:52:44.680 the time benefit is to me. And all of a sudden I go, oh, cool. I can sleep. I can set my alarm clock

00:52:50.700 and I'm really tired right now. And I'll set my alarm clock and I'll wake up in 10 hours.

00:52:57.560 And so I'll do that and I'll go to bed and I'll wake up seven hours or eight hours later. And I don't

00:53:03.140 feel like, I feel groggy. I guess that's just jet lag, I guess.

00:53:08.340 Yeah. And it also might be that you haven't hit an equilibrium. I mean, I think that would be the

00:53:12.020 question, right? It's like, is there an equilibrium where you got to go through a sort of reconciliation

00:53:17.120 period for your body to sort of, to sort of get used to it? But I mean, I appreciate you saying

00:53:22.320 this stuff because there's one question I get asked, which is like the moment somebody knows I

00:53:26.660 know you, it's like, when are you going to talk to him about sleep? You're right. People get upset

00:53:30.800 about it. And I suspect it's because they think that, or they're interpreting what you're saying as

00:53:36.100 don't sleep. And I appreciate you clarifying that. Now that gets to a couple of the other

00:53:40.120 questions that I've actually written down from the Instagram stuff, which was actually great.

00:53:43.920 It kind of worked out as like a mini Q and a before we met. So I'm going to just read them

00:53:49.040 verbatim. Describe a time when you gave up, how did you deal with that in the end? How did you bounce

00:53:55.520 back? How do you tell the difference between giving up quitting versus the smarter calling it quits?

00:54:02.820 This is what we've been talking about all day. Strategy versus tactics. You sometimes in a tactical

00:54:07.420 situation have to give up because you've taken the wrong path. You've got the wrong plan. You

00:54:11.260 didn't suspect something was going to unfold the way it did. And so you have to give up. You have

00:54:15.540 to quit on that plan. What you don't want to give up on is your strategic goal. And so you got to make

00:54:21.740 those adaptations all the time. And I can give you the countless millions of times that I've said,

00:54:26.420 you know what, this plan that I had isn't really working out. I'm going to stop doing that plan.

00:54:30.300 I'm going to quit on that plan. And I'm going to go from a different direction because I still

00:54:34.600 want to reach my strategic goal. Now, what about quitting on the other side, which is

00:54:39.420 quitting in a moment of weakness? I don't want to keep doing this, even though I should keep doing

00:54:45.500 this. If you want to keep doing it, why would you stop doing it? So I'll give you an example from my

00:54:49.860 life. In marathon swimming, you are disqualified the moment you touch the boat. So, and every swim

00:54:58.860 has their own set of rules. So I've never been in a marathon swim, no matter how much it hurt,

00:55:03.600 no matter how miserable I was, no matter how cold, scared, thought I saw sharks, or I wanted

00:55:08.320 to touch the boat. However, there was one swim I did that was actually a relatively short swim.

00:55:13.720 It wouldn't qualify as a marathon swim. It's called the Chesapeake Bay Bridge Swim. So it's out near

00:55:19.480 Maryland and it's a four and a half mile swim from one side to the other. And you swim between a span,

00:55:27.080 two enormous bridge spans. And you are disqualified from the race if you can't stay within the current

00:55:36.800 and you slip outside of the span. So there are boats on either side of the spans that are there.

00:55:41.880 And any swimmer who gets pushed out, gets yanked up. Can't remember what year it was, but there was

00:55:46.780 one year when I felt like this is my year to sort of be in the top 10. Like I really felt dialed.

00:55:54.960 I trained specifically for that distance, which is not really my sweet spot. And I had looked at

00:56:00.200 all the times in the previous year I had done well. And I was like, you know what? I'm there.

00:56:04.040 I'm going to be top 10 of a race that nobody cares about. It's like, it couldn't be a less

00:56:09.780 relevant goal here. And everyone who's ever done anything knows the feeling of 10 seconds in,

00:56:16.240 you know, it's not your day. You know what I mean? Like it's just the next hour and 55 minutes

00:56:20.620 are going to suck. And by the way, it's not going to be an hour 55. It's going to be two hours

00:56:24.340 and 15 minutes today. So I'm a quarter mile, half a mile, maybe, maybe a mile into this race.

00:56:32.920 And I'm feeling horrible. Like it's just not clicking. Like I don't have that groove. I can't

00:56:38.140 understand why, but you know, I've had this experience many times before in training.

00:56:41.560 So I'm taking a stroke and I'm outstretched. So right arm in front, left arm in the cat in the

00:56:47.020 high position recovery. And the swimmer in front of me, not of course on purpose, kicks down really

00:56:53.900 hard, hits my arm. I sublux my shoulder. So now my shoulder, my humerus is out of socket.

00:56:59.660 So a miserable day has gone to become now a much more miserable day. I put the shoulder back in.

00:57:06.860 I do have relatively loose right shoulder from boxing. So I'm able to put it back in while

00:57:11.820 treading water. But of course it hurts like hell. So I now realize you're not going to finish in the

00:57:18.500 top 10, dude. You're going to just finish. And I'm just upset. Like I'm, I'm in pain. I'm upset.

00:57:26.500 I'm just frankly, just being a little whiny bitch. And so I just got like, put your head down and swim.

00:57:32.360 Just put your head down and swim. And what I really remember struggling with as clear as day,

00:57:39.360 and this is like 13, 14, 15 years ago, the struggle I had that moment was I wanted to let

00:57:45.360 the current push me out. You see in that swim, the current is perpendicular to you. The reason

00:57:50.560 the swim takes as long as it does for the distance it does is you're not actually just swimming

00:57:55.700 straight. You're swimming against a current perpendicular. So it's very easy to go out and

00:58:01.280 get disqualified. Like it just means you just have to stop fighting the current. And I remember this was

00:58:05.900 the hardest thing I've ever done in my life. I just wanted to quit so badly. I was like, look,

00:58:10.940 there's no shame. No one will even know, dude. It's a strong current. You got pushed out. Your

00:58:15.500 shoulder got dislocated. Like just get it over with. Now I didn't, I don't know why. I don't think I

00:58:22.440 deserve a hero cookie for not. I was like, no, I just couldn't bring myself to let, but I wanted to

00:58:28.040 so badly. And I guess that's sort of my story. That would be the answer to that question, which was,

00:58:34.400 that was the hardest thing I ever did. And by the way, I didn't feel good when I got to the shore,

00:58:39.540 you'd think I felt great. You did it. You conquered your demon. My wife to this day still

00:58:45.520 tells the story of how pissed I was when I got to that beach. She said, you got out of the water,

00:58:52.820 you walked past me. You didn't even say anything to me. You grabbed a bottle of water on the thing.

00:58:59.180 And you said, let's get the fuck out of here. Like, I mean, it was just like, again,

00:59:03.240 there was nothing beautiful or majestic about conquering my demon on that day. I mean, I just,

00:59:08.340 I was miserable. I hated every second of that. And, um, but I still remember it. I didn't perform

00:59:13.900 there. I wanted to going in. And then I was just like, it's one of these things. Like I'm starting

00:59:18.180 to blame everything. Oh, this guy kicks my shoulder. Now I'm dislocated shoulder and I'm in,

00:59:22.860 you know, I just got into this awful negative spiral. And then I fought this fight against myself

00:59:29.620 where I wanted to quit, but I couldn't quite let myself. And I knew enough to know that if you quit

00:59:34.900 now, you're going to really regret it in about an hour. That's what I was going to say. It's like,

00:59:38.760 you might've been pissed that you got kicked and didn't place where you wanted to place. But what

00:59:43.020 you knew in the back of your head is that you let yourself drift out of that thing. And that,

00:59:47.280 that moment is going to haunt you for a long, long time, despite your efforts to rationalize it,

00:59:54.200 despite your excuses that you're going to make in the blame, you're going to cast on everyone else.

00:59:57.560 You're going to know that at that moment you quit. And that you knew that in the back of your head,

01:00:05.300 that's why you swam on. You're still pissed off, but guess what? You took the lesser of two evils

01:00:11.040 because you washing out of that thing, you would have hurt more.

01:00:15.820 Have you had struggles like that where you really, really wanted to just tap out?

01:00:20.420 So I was paddling out on a giant day in ocean beach and that's not the San Francisco ocean beach.

01:00:28.380 That's the ocean beach, San Diego. I was paddling out on a big, big giant day where I was with my

01:00:34.700 best friend and we were paddling out. It was a huge giant closeout day of surfing. And I was on a

01:00:41.200 pretty big board that was hard to duck dive. And I didn't have a leash on, which means that you have

01:00:46.020 to hold that thing and get through the surf. And I paddled for a long, long time and I didn't make

01:00:51.560 it. It's the only time.

01:00:52.640 But hang on. Is that just because you physically couldn't make it happen or did you, did you quit?

01:00:58.140 Well, I mean, I didn't make it out, right? I mean, I didn't make it out. I tried for a long time

01:01:02.240 and I didn't make it out.

01:01:03.360 Okay. But that's like me saying, Jocko, I want you to fly. I want you to flap your arms really,

01:01:08.560 really hard until you get onto my roof.

01:01:11.200 Yeah. Well, whatever it was, it left me with a feeling of defeat. And I thought to myself,

01:01:16.940 well, that was pretty weak.

01:01:18.540 Yeah. But is that any different than not hitting a deadlift rep that you want to hit or a rep count

01:01:22.700 on something?

01:01:23.560 Okay. I'm not sure. I guess the reason I bring that up is because you're, when did I walk away? Well,

01:01:29.040 like I could have paddled more, I guess is what I'm saying. I mean, I could have paddled more. I

01:01:32.880 don't know if I would have made it or not. I don't wear a leash a lot. And that was one day I was

01:01:36.740 thinking, man, if I just had a leash, cause if you had a leash, you can just kind of let go of your board. You can

01:01:40.300 just dive onto the waves and you can swim out and it's fine. But when you have to haul that board

01:01:44.560 through with no rope, it's kind of a pain. And I didn't make it.

01:01:48.360 So that kind of feeds into another really interesting question, right? Which was,

01:01:52.100 does Jocko understand that others may have difficulty with things that are easy for him?

01:01:57.940 Here's the problem with that statement. The problem with that statement is, and this is something that

01:02:02.860 I've experienced with my kids and I've experienced it with other people that are in my life as well,

01:02:08.360 which is, well, it's different for you. It's like, oh, well, it's easy for you to get up early in the

01:02:14.460 morning. It's easy for you to work out every day. It's easy for you to write a thousand words cause

01:02:18.760 you're different and you're you. So I don't really like that concept of putting me in some position

01:02:25.540 where I'm some kind of superhero. Cause I'm not man. I'm not, I'm a normal human. And here's the

01:02:32.220 dichotomy. The dichotomy is I know that I'm not normal. I know that I say that, but I also know

01:02:37.460 that there's another weird thing going on because, okay, on the surface, the very initial thing,

01:02:43.260 you look at me and you think, oh, this guy's not normal. Right. Then you get to know me a little

01:02:46.500 bit and you go, yeah, you know what? This guy's pretty normal. Like he's a pretty normal guy.

01:02:50.760 The thing that is not normal is like the real, the deeper level. That's where it's not normal.

01:02:55.500 That's where it's like, yeah, I will not stop. You know what I mean? Like there's that little thing

01:02:59.460 in there, but I don't overtly run around with that because it's offensive to a lot of people.

01:03:03.660 And part of my job has been not being offensive to people and trying to be a part of a team and,

01:03:10.420 and have a team and be a good team member. And so if you're constantly rubbing things in people's

01:03:17.480 faces, that doesn't help your mission. You can't bark out your attitude on people all the time

01:03:23.180 because what you're supposed to be doing is being a part of a team. So as far as that question goes,

01:03:28.280 I know I'm not a hundred percent normal, but you know what? No one's a hundred percent normal.

01:03:31.160 My reading of that question is, I think that person is looking for, and again,

01:03:37.320 I don't even know who wrote this, but they're looking for some acknowledgement.

01:03:43.000 Have you got into the deep discussion with Sam Harris on free will?

01:03:46.360 No, we've danced around it a little bit, but I'm sure one of the reasons that we really haven't

01:03:53.180 had that discussion is because that's what he does. He talks about free will. He wrote a damn book

01:03:58.020 called free will. So we haven't really had a big discussion about it. Cause he'd say, Hey,

01:04:03.300 you don't make your own choices. And I'd say, well, watch this. Cause I'm going to make a choice

01:04:07.160 right now. And then he'd say, well, that choice was based upon your genetic makeup, the time that

01:04:11.500 you've spent on earth. And I don't know. I don't know. It's such an interesting topic, right? Of all

01:04:15.700 the things that Sam writes about and talks about, this is the one that bends my brain the most,

01:04:19.800 but here's where I am today. I still don't know if I believe in free will. I would say this.

01:04:24.000 I used to absolutely believe in free will today. I'm a free will agnostic.

01:04:31.380 Maybe I'll be a free will atheist. Actually, Sam told me when we were talking about what we were

01:04:36.840 going to talk about, I think we were going to do another podcast. We're going to do a live podcast

01:04:39.640 or something. And he said, I'd really like to talk about free will and extreme ownership.

01:04:45.500 He says, because they really align. And I was like, Hey, cool. I can talk about extreme ownership.

01:04:51.500 You can talk about free will because that way I don't have to study and go deep on that subject.

01:04:55.720 Because to me, it's like this, call it whatever you want. If I want to do something, I'll do it.

01:05:00.200 And if I don't want to do something, I won't do it. Kind of an interesting concept.

01:05:03.880 Of course. And when you come at it through that lens, which is, I bet you and I went through the

01:05:07.600 same things. Like I would come up with counter examples all the time. What's like, if you told me

01:05:12.380 to walk into a store and pick something out, I promise you, I have a choice of which thing I'm

01:05:16.800 picking out, which is an easier example than think of three movies. Tell me the first three movies that

01:05:21.400 pop into your head. Well, that one's a little harder, right? To say that you picked those three

01:05:25.520 movies. You know where I've shaken out on this? It has given me a little bit more understanding of

01:05:31.600 people that don't share my work ethic, that don't share some of the values that I have. Because I

01:05:37.680 think it used to be so hard for me to acknowledge the existence of people who didn't just want to crush

01:05:45.200 it every minute of every day. It just bugged me. Yeah.

01:05:47.900 It just bothered me. And I tried to separate it from the person, but deep down, I think I harbored

01:05:53.140 a resentment that I think has melted away significantly as a result of this.

01:05:57.280 I think that's a really good point. And I never framed it that way. But I tell people all the

01:06:02.200 time from a leadership perspective, people are the way they are. And so that basically is saying

01:06:07.000 they don't have free will, right? So I would have to agree with that. And you can have some level of

01:06:11.400 influence on it, but you've got a person on your team and they have a certain type of attitude and

01:06:15.240 you can move it a little bit to the left or to the right. You can give them a little bit of

01:06:18.640 course correction, but they're going to be that person. And the only thing that can change them

01:06:23.280 is them. So maybe that's where I'd have to push back a little bit. Because when you meet someone,

01:06:29.680 I'm sure you've known people, I've known people in my life that have radically transformed their

01:06:33.700 life. There's been a transformation that has taken place that they went from being one type of person

01:06:37.560 to being another type of person, right? Do you know people like that? I mean, you can take a person

01:06:41.740 that's an addict. This is a really obvious example and they come clean. Okay, cool. So they've made

01:06:46.460 a radical transformation in their life. That's good, but you can't impose that transformation

01:06:51.920 upon them. They have to come to that conclusion that they want to change. I was having a conversation

01:06:55.760 with a guy that I worked with in a company overseas and he was saying, hey, and this guy's made some

01:07:03.960 pretty radical transformations in his own life. He went from kind of being, he's opened up a bunch of

01:07:08.040 business. He's making a ton of money now. He's doing really well. And he was not doing that well

01:07:11.980 before. And he said, got a new business partner in this one business that I'm doing. And can I change

01:07:17.500 this guy? Can I change this guy? I realized maybe I shouldn't have partnered with him, but can I change

01:07:22.460 him? And I said, no, because these are text conversations and I'm, I said, no, no. And then he

01:07:30.900 replied, you changed me. And then I replied, you changed you. And sure, I illuminated the path,

01:07:37.640 but he's the one that decided he was going to change. And that's the same thing with his business

01:07:42.060 partners is you can't impose the change on them. You can show them the path though. And then hopefully

01:07:45.640 they make the transition. Well, maybe that's the answer to this next question that actually

01:07:49.520 dovetails nicely, even though it was asked by a different person, which is how does Jocko work with

01:07:54.680 people who have virtually the opposite mindset? So for example, make excuses, externalize, blame others,

01:08:00.700 procrastinate. How do you work with such people and get the best out of them? When you have to,

01:08:05.560 the answer is you get the best out of people that you can. And when somebody makes an excuse to me,

01:08:09.640 you know what I do? If I'm working with Peter and I say, Peter, that project didn't get done.

01:08:15.540 And I'm your boss. And Peter says, well, you know, we didn't get the funding that we were supposed to

01:08:19.400 have. And then I say, okay, you know what? That's my fault. What can we do to get you the funding? Or you

01:08:23.700 say, Hey, I didn't have the resources that I needed. Okay, well, that's my fault. Cause I didn't get you

01:08:27.760 the research or you say, well, you didn't give me enough people. And I say, okay, well then I need

01:08:32.440 to get you more people or I need to lower the scope of what you need to get done. Cause if you're

01:08:36.680 making a bunch of excuses, I'm going to own them. And by the way, that goes up and down the chain

01:08:39.520 of command. So if I'm working for you and you're not giving me what I need, that's my fault too.

01:08:45.720 And when you get people together like that, that's when people start taking ownership of everything.

01:08:50.900 And not everyone is going to like that. Some people do not like to take ownership. Like the person

01:08:54.980 that's being used here in his example is some people will never take ownership of everything

01:08:58.940 because it hurts their ego and they don't want to be blamed for everything. And so they just

01:09:01.760 would rather slough it off. And what's great about those people is they won't last inside my

01:09:05.940 organization. They'll get eaten up. They'll get consumed. And maybe you're in a communistic type

01:09:12.800 scenario or whatever. HR is not going to let you. I mean, there's all kinds of situations where you

01:09:16.540 can't get rid of the person because they don't have a good work ethic. So then what I'm going to do,

01:09:20.100 I'm going to get the best I can out of them. That's what I'm going to do. You can't fire people think,

01:09:24.000 this is different because in the SEAL teams, if someone's not doing their job, you can just get

01:09:26.580 rid of them. No, actually you can't. And if you do get rid of them, guess what you're going to get

01:09:29.460 for replacement? No one. So do you really want to get rid of someone? Do they have any value that

01:09:33.660 they can add? So that's what we're looking to do. Get the best you can out of people,

01:09:37.660 take ownership of things that they're making excuses about and get them fixed.

01:09:41.220 I mean, the extreme ownership is so disarming that I think that's part of its power, right?

01:09:45.380 Like who expects to hear that? For sure. And I'll tell you, we've been talking a lot about kids today.

01:09:50.120 One of the best things that I figured out with my kids was when they would mess something up,

01:09:54.940 instead of me saying, you didn't do your homework. It was, Hey, I got a call from your teacher.

01:10:01.740 And she said that you didn't do your homework again. I feel like I'm not even being a good dad

01:10:06.740 because here is the most important thing that you can do in your life is become smarter. And somehow I

01:10:14.140 haven't made that impression on you. And now you're missing out on simple things that are going to

01:10:18.500 improve your ability to contend with the world by being the smartest possible human you can be.

01:10:23.760 And I haven't done a good job. Is there anything that I can do that will help you realize why it's

01:10:29.800 so important that you improve your intellect at every chance possible that you get, you become

01:10:35.940 smarter because you're going to be out there in the world one day. And I'm not going to be there.

01:10:40.200 You're going to be on your own. And the only way you're going to be able to survive

01:10:42.920 is because of your brain. And right now I haven't done a good job of explaining to you that

01:10:47.580 that's the most important weapon that you have. So when you flip that on them, they realize that

01:10:52.560 instead of going into your homework, what's wrong with you? Guess what they're doing?

01:10:55.400 They're blaming their teacher. They're blaming you. They're blaming everyone else.

01:10:58.740 But if you take ownership, they'll take ownership.

01:11:00.980 Okay. Here's an actually an awesome question. I would have never thought to have asked you this.

01:11:04.380 I'll read it in its entirety and let you answer. I really want to know if he indulges ever

01:11:09.800 specifically, does he drink alcohol? And if he does, how often, what kind? It's always overlooked in all

01:11:17.480 of the interviews done by Tim, you and others. I'm surprised. No, I don't drink alcohol.

01:11:22.200 Okay. I don't think I knew that actually. I've never been with you drinking. So I,

01:11:25.400 but I didn't know that, is that a decided policy? Like did you decide at some point in life,

01:11:28.940 I'm not drinking at all? When I retired from the Navy, I stopped drinking. I didn't even think about

01:11:33.180 it. I retired from the Navy. All of a sudden I wasn't hanging around with a bunch of my friends

01:11:36.320 anymore. All of a sudden we weren't in random cities out there, out for dinner and hanging out

01:11:42.020 and doing that. And then I looked up in a month and I looked up in two months and I looked up in

01:11:46.540 three months and I'd had a beer here and there. And that was that. So now I just don't drink at

01:11:51.480 all. So now is policy. Like if you're at dinner and there's a glass of wine being poured, you're

01:11:55.480 not going to have a glass of wine. No. What is your biggest indulgence then? Let's start with food.

01:11:59.380 Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's a big list. Like I really like chocolate, dark chocolate.

01:12:03.780 What percentage is the sweet spot for you? Well, when you say sweet spot, which is optimum

01:12:07.820 for nutrition and health? No, no, no, no. Optimum for indulgence.

01:12:13.160 72%. Okay. 72%. And I lied to myself and like, you know, that's still dark chocolate. We know it's

01:12:18.200 not. And the way you can tell, the way I can tell when something is the right level of darkness is when

01:12:23.840 it tastes good, but you don't want more. When you get a good, for me, 82 squares of 80 to 85%,

01:12:29.520 and I'm satisfied and I don't even want any more. 72%, I want that whole bar and the box that the bar

01:12:36.320 came in. Dude, that is, that is a perfect metric for life. I completely agree with you, by the way,

01:12:44.240 you throw me a box of milk chocolate. I can eat all of it. Yes. A hundred. It's just too dark. There's

01:12:50.520 no pleasure in it. Right. But sort of that 85 to 90 for me, it's four squares, but four squares of that

01:12:58.160 with like a decaf espresso with dinner is like, yeah, you don't need to eat the whole thing. You could

01:13:04.060 nurse that bar for a week besides chocolate. What's a true indulgence, meaning something that

01:13:09.120 is just patently not great for you in large quantities. Oh, just name foods. Come on. It's

01:13:15.260 weird. Cause I really love steak a lot and that's by far my favorite food and steak and chicken and

01:13:22.400 pork. And so it's fine. But yeah, I mean, I love freaking normal stuff that people love. Mint

01:13:27.520 chocolate chip milkshakes used to be a real, like I would be stoked and I would earn them.

01:13:33.780 I would do something crazy and I'd be like, you deserve it. And then I ended up making a supplement

01:13:39.520 that's equivalent, right? It's equivalent to a mint chocolate chip milkshake. It's, I made that. And

01:13:46.240 then once I made that now there's no reason to, which is, which is a crazy thought, but yeah.

01:13:50.760 The supplement is like a sports powder.

01:13:52.080 Yeah. Yeah. It's called Mulk. M O with an umlaut L K. And the reason it's called Mulk,

01:13:58.100 I made up that word. Cause when I tasted it, when I got it right, I was like, this is,

01:14:02.540 this needs its own word. You mix it with milk or water with milk. Yeah. I mix it with milk.

01:14:06.940 I'm going to order some with water. I describe it like this with water. It kind of tastes like a

01:14:11.480 ham sandwich. Like it's good, but it's not enough to like really get excited about. It's fine.

01:14:17.480 But you could do it with like, I love cashew milk is my favorite type of milk.

01:14:20.420 Yeah. Cause it's fatty enough. Yes. Cashew milk, coconut milk, regular milk.

01:14:25.180 What's the sweetener you use in it? Monk fruit. Oh, great. Big fan of the monk. Yeah,

01:14:29.260 no, it's, that's the game changer. As far as I can tell, that's the game changer. And the other

01:14:33.180 important thing is don't overlook allulose for next additions. Okay. So allulose actually just

01:14:38.960 approved by the FDA two days ago in its citizen petition to have the FDA correctly acknowledge it for

01:14:46.540 what it is. So allulose is an enantomer of fructose, meaning it is something that has the

01:14:52.500 same chemical nomenclature as fructose, but it has one different position of a bond. It's about 70%

01:14:58.480 the sweetness of fructose, which is still to say it's sweet, but most importantly are two things.

01:15:03.300 One, it has the exact same flavor esque and mouth feel as sugar, but here's the best part. It's not

01:15:10.740 absorbed. It's excreted by the kidneys. So for every four grams you ingest only for every gram,

01:15:18.920 I'm sorry, you're only getting like one 10th of the absorption. So if that's not good enough,

01:15:24.380 the other property is it seems to drag glucose out with it. So when you consume allulose, like for

01:15:29.560 example, I have a bunch of it here. Let's say I had a tea or a coffee and you put allulose in it,

01:15:33.700 it would lower your blood sugar. That's impressive.

01:15:35.720 Cause it's dragging glucose out with it and doing so not into your gut where you get

01:15:41.020 gastrointestinal distress, but actually into your kidneys. So yeah, so it's really interesting.

01:15:45.660 And for up until two days ago, the FDA was basically calling it basically an added sugar.

01:15:51.400 So you weren't getting the quote unquote credit for it. So manufacturers weren't using it much

01:15:55.660 cause it showed up looking like sugar. So quest I think was one of the first companies to work with

01:16:00.220 this. It has a couple of quirks to it. For example, it gets colored easily. It browns

01:16:05.600 quite easily. So if you're making like a white bar, you couldn't use it. And then I think no

01:16:10.400 foods is using it. So anyway, I just saw this two days ago. So that's something to consider,

01:16:14.240 but monk fruit. Yeah. It's probably one of my favorite of the alcohol sugars.

01:16:17.340 And it's the one that tastes ridiculously good.

01:16:21.300 Yeah. Metabolically quite inert, but, uh, I'm not a monk and we're talking about monk fruit,

01:16:25.860 but for that person, you know, I'm not a monk. I'm a human. I'm a normal person. I like

01:16:30.200 to eat crap sometimes. What you eat typically how many meals a day? Between zero and two.

01:16:39.980 You're not a breakfast guy. Nope. So you're a lunch dinner or a dinner. Yeah. Mostly. Yeah.

01:16:44.580 What was the longest you ever went without food in combat or in training? I don't know. Probably a

01:16:49.300 few days. And then what about these days now? How often do you fast? Probably once or twice a week.

01:16:54.800 And then you mean you'll just skip a day once or twice a week? Yeah. Yeah. And then once a quarter

01:17:01.040 I'll do 72. And I know I owe more than 72 at some point in the near future. So I'll be getting some

01:17:07.100 of that. It's really not that big of a deal. I feel fine. I feel totally normal. I feel better.

01:17:13.240 You know, everyone says they feel better. You do feel better. You do feel better. I don't always feel

01:17:17.420 better. You know, my last fast, I did not feel good for the first three days. Really? Yeah. I really

01:17:21.900 didn't. I've gone back and looked and tried to figure out what did I do different? Was there

01:17:25.300 something else going on? I can't come up with what it was, but I definitely did not feel

01:17:29.480 good for three days. And then by the fourth day, I did turn the corner. It was a bit humbling

01:17:35.460 because I, at this point in the game, I feel like I'm kind of a fasting jock. Like it should

01:17:41.020 always be, it should always be easy and stuff. I still slept really well. So I feel fortunate

01:17:47.480 that I using Kirk supplement plus phosphatidylserine. I have the deepest, richest, most intense,

01:17:53.620 beautiful sleep imaginable when I'm fasting. And for that, I feel grateful because I know

01:17:57.980 for a lot of people, it's really hard. Meditation feels so much better. Like a lot of things do

01:18:02.320 get better, but the hunger was unusual and the sort of sluggishness, not in my workouts.

01:18:08.560 My workouts actually felt good, but it was just like the kind of ass dragging throughout the

01:18:12.700 rest of the day that was frustrating. I really don't know what it was though.

01:18:15.980 So I'll be back to it again in a few months. How often are you doing them right now?

01:18:20.180 I do quarterly. Quarterly five days? Five to seven, just depending on how long I'm in New

01:18:24.320 York for the given week. I don't fast here. I find it just, I don't want to do it around

01:18:27.840 the kids and stuff. So yeah, it's like, I aim for seven. I usually try to do the Sunday to

01:18:31.860 the following Saturday if the trip is accommodates it, but five at a minimum. I think there's benefit

01:18:36.460 at three. I really do. I think three is a, is a real tipping point in terms of glycogen

01:18:41.500 release. Yeah. That's kind of what I'm hearing is that three is like kind of the starting

01:18:45.060 point for their real benefits. So I've been slacking.

01:18:48.460 Yeah. But if you can get to three and feel good, you're really going to have an easy time

01:18:53.000 getting to five. At the end of three, I'm not, I can't wait. No, I'm just sort of whatever.

01:18:57.760 In fact, the first time I did, I remember I was at jujitsu and I'd squatted that day.

01:19:01.800 I did my complete normal workout, showed up at jujitsu and I was like, oh, this is going

01:19:04.960 to hit me. And I was training with one of my main training partners. And I was like, I'm

01:19:09.340 going to tell you something when we're done training. And so we trained and, and this is

01:19:13.020 a guy that I usually do better than, but I've been training longer than him. So I'm

01:19:16.800 just a little bit better than him. And that's the way the role went. We trained and I was

01:19:20.420 a little bit better than him, like normal. And we got done and, and he was like, what

01:19:24.520 were you going to tell me? I was like, that I haven't eaten for three days. Cause I didn't

01:19:27.380 want him to get the mental advantage thinking like, oh, if he isn't eating, he's going to

01:19:30.200 be trained. I didn't want him to have that. So I didn't give it to him or could have

01:19:33.580 backfired, which is a minute in, he feels like he doesn't have anything over you. He's

01:19:38.560 totally demoralized. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. That seemed

01:19:41.380 like a bigger risk to take psychologically than him thinking, oh, he's not eating. So

01:19:47.900 I'm feeling good and I'm going to smash him. I'm going to go extra. Cause when people just

01:19:51.620 like in combat, just like in life, if someone thinks they have an upper hand and they get

01:19:55.720 a little bit confident and then they, they can kind of dictate the situation a little

01:19:59.360 bit more than they normally would. And this is the type of individual that when I train

01:20:03.680 with him, if he tries to dictate that, then it can be a little bit problematic for me.

01:20:08.900 Again, I've been training longer, so it's not a total game changer, but it'll make things

01:20:14.320 more difficult than they should be. So I would rather have him thinking he's on some new supplement

01:20:21.060 or he's got a new move that he's going to try on me or something like that. I want him to

01:20:24.600 be in that mindset where he's mentally defensive. And then when it was over, I told him, you know,

01:20:30.120 said no factor. I love when my patients fast, because I love how empowering it is to them.

01:20:36.160 I think the first time somebody gets through a fast, whether it's a modified fast or a outright

01:20:41.440 water fast, it's like, even if it's tough, which, you know, for many people, that first

01:20:46.980 one is actually quite tough. They realize like they did it. They did it. They did this thing,

01:20:52.500 man. They're a little more in touch with our ancestors. Like you did something that you were

01:20:57.960 genetically equipped to do. You know, my kids wrestle and my daughter, my son were in high

01:21:02.760 school right now and their season was this last season. But I remember my daughter was cutting

01:21:06.960 some weight and you were talking about how to my kids, I'm not Jocko, I'm just dad. Well,

01:21:12.520 occasionally they'll let it slip out that they're either listening to my podcast or they're reading

01:21:17.540 my books or something like that. And so one of the things that my daughter told me was she had to

01:21:23.100 cut a decent amount of weight. And she's like, yeah, I haven't eaten in 36 hours. And I was like,

01:21:27.820 how do you feel? She's like, I feel fine. And then she says, she's like, you know, you said in your

01:21:31.940 book, human beings can go 30 days without food. Like you can make it 36 hours. Do not worry. You're

01:21:38.640 not going to die. It's totally ridiculous. And so she had the attitude like, Hey, oh my God,

01:21:43.840 a three day fast or a two day of 24 hours. Like it's a joke. You're going to be fine. It's really

01:21:49.700 no factor. Well, speaking of daughters, I see mine walking around out there. Hovering. Hovering.

01:21:58.600 Well, I lost her now, but I saw her like two minutes ago. So she can't be that far. So I'm

01:22:02.460 going to go and get her because of all the questions on her list, we have got through all of them, but

01:22:07.540 two. And I can think of nothing better than bringing her in. Let's do it. All right. I'll be

01:22:12.240 right back. You need to say who you are first. My name is Olivia Tia and I'm Peter. She is

01:22:19.680 daughter. Awesome. What made you want to start being more disciplined? What made me start to

01:22:25.420 want to be more disciplined? One of the main things was when I first got to the SEAL teams,

01:22:33.680 I noticed that the people that were really good at their job, the people that were SEALs that I looked

01:22:42.720 at and said, wow, I want to be like that guy. I realized that what they were doing is they were

01:22:48.980 getting to work early. They were taking care of their gear. They were putting forth effort that

01:22:54.500 other people weren't putting forth. They had discipline and that was making them better.

01:22:59.780 And the more disciplined they were and the better they did their job, the more latitude they had to do

01:23:08.540 what they wanted to do. So that was kind of the first connection that I made with discipline,

01:23:14.180 making you better and being better, giving you more freedom in everything that you did.

01:23:19.240 Because when I was a kid, I was kind of a crazy kid and I wasn't always the best behaved kid.

01:23:25.940 And sometimes the things that I would do, they would backfire on me. And so when I got older,

01:23:30.660 I realized, wait a second, instead of doing things that are going to backfire on me,

01:23:34.240 I'm actually going to try and do a good job and have more discipline. And that's kind of where

01:23:39.000 it stemmed from.

01:23:40.880 Oh. Describe what you do during your workouts and what kind of healthy food you eat.

01:23:45.460 I do a whole bunch of different things when I work out, but I think they're all kind of the

01:23:50.560 common exercises that everyone does. Push-ups, pull-ups, dips. And then I use weights. I use kettlebells.

01:23:58.200 I do deadlifts. I do, obviously I do squats because everyone, everyone does squats because squats are

01:24:04.080 beautiful. And overhead squats, front squats, back squats. I do all those different kinds of squats.

01:24:10.560 I like to sprint. I have a rowing machine. I have a air cycle. I do a lot of burpees.

01:24:17.280 It's kind of like there's no secret exercise that I do that's different than what normal people that

01:24:23.160 work out do.

01:24:24.300 Oh. So how did you get the nickname Jocko?

01:24:26.960 Okay. So my real name is John and my dad's name is John. And so I was named after my dad. So when

01:24:36.780 you have multiple people in the household with the same name, that can be confusing because, well,

01:24:43.420 when every time someone says John, then you've got two people turning their head. So when that happens,

01:24:47.300 it's pretty common for the son to get a nickname. And so my dad wanted me to be a Jock. Do you know

01:24:54.600 what a Jock is?

01:24:55.300 Yes. Like athlete.

01:24:56.660 Yes. Someone that's all into sports.

01:24:58.120 Yes.

01:24:58.440 But my dad was very into sports and he wanted me to be a Jock. Have you ever heard of a magazine

01:25:03.680 called Sports Illustrated?

01:25:05.060 Yes.

01:25:05.640 So my dad, when they found out I was going to be a boy, he covered my whole room with the cover

01:25:11.500 of Sports Illustrated because he wanted me to be a Jock. Now, on top of that, my dad is named

01:25:18.840 after his uncle and his uncle's name is John and his last name was Oglethorpe. But everyone called

01:25:27.860 his uncle, they called him John O. John O. So when my dad was born, my dad was named John

01:25:34.980 and they called him John O. That's what they called him. And then when I was born, or actually

01:25:42.900 it was just before I was born, my dad said to my mom, I hope he's a Jock. And my mom

01:25:49.300 said, Jocko. And that's how they came up with my nickname and it stuck.

01:25:53.640 That's smart.

01:25:55.200 About Face?

01:25:56.600 About Face is a book. It's a note that your dad wrote down. It's my favorite book. Yeah.

01:26:00.960 What's your favorite book?

01:26:02.100 Way of the Warrior Kid.

01:26:04.280 Did I pay you to say that?

01:26:05.820 Yeah. No. I just read that last night.

01:26:07.820 Did you read it for the first time last night?

01:26:09.060 No. Probably the 10th.

01:26:10.120 Oh, really? The first one? The second one?

01:26:11.960 I've read the first one.

01:26:13.280 Okay. Do you have the second one?

01:26:14.760 No.

01:26:15.320 Oh, I can't believe I didn't bring that. I can't believe that. And the third one is coming

01:26:19.840 out soon.

01:26:20.580 Oh.

01:26:20.940 I'll get you that one as well.

01:26:22.040 Yeah, I need to get my hands on some of these.

01:26:23.720 What did you learn from Way of the Warrior Kid?

01:26:25.700 What I learned is that the kid, Mark, he wasn't very disciplined in the beginning, but then

01:26:32.040 he got to training and he learned to eating right and he learned how to be disciplined. And

01:26:36.500 then he had more success in school and he was better at all of these things.

01:26:41.420 Yeah. It's a big key to life.

01:26:43.820 Yeah.

01:26:44.120 People to this day say what they want to know what the secret is. And I always kind of say

01:26:47.700 that the best advice I can give someone is have discipline because then you'll end up

01:26:51.360 with more freedom.

01:26:52.240 Mm-hmm.

01:26:52.740 I saw that video where it was like a joke and you said, if you had trouble sticking to

01:26:57.480 your morning routine, get up.

01:26:59.640 Oh, yeah. When I was doing my fake yoga meditation thing, that was pretty funny. When that happened,

01:27:06.580 I was in the studio with these people from CNBC. And I'm in there and they're asking me a bunch

01:27:14.480 of questions. They don't want me to do stuff. And finally, this one girl says, hey, how do

01:27:20.300 you wake up at 4.30 in the morning? And I said, oh, when I wake up, the alarm goes off

01:27:23.660 and I get out of bed. And she says, no, but, and then she kind of like toots like that.

01:27:27.960 You know what a toot is? Like, she goes, you know, my editor really wants to hear more

01:27:33.100 detail about that. And then I decided to have some fun with it because the reality is, what

01:27:40.120 do you do? If you want to get up early, set your alarm. And when the alarm goes off, get

01:27:43.200 out of bed. That's the way a lot of things are. Your dad and I were just talking and

01:27:46.640 your dad says something along the lines of, well, you know, what about if there's something

01:27:50.560 that you want to do, but you know, you don't really want to do it. And I was like, well,

01:27:53.440 if you want to do it, then do it. I think that's the best policy.

01:27:58.400 Yeah. Thank you.

01:27:59.540 Thank you. Thanks for the good questions.

01:28:01.620 Well, my friend, thank you so much. This was so much fun. It's amazing how quickly time

01:28:06.560 can go by. And yet there's so many things that we didn't get to talk about that I know

01:28:11.220 we'll continue to talk about, but I appreciate what you're doing. I really, I really do.

01:28:16.340 And it's so fun to watch you interact with Olivia. I know that, uh, half of the interactions,

01:28:21.740 the really fun interactions actually have just taken place off Mike, you know, it's, uh,

01:28:26.900 you are kind of like a superhero to these kids, I think. And with great power comes great

01:28:31.140 responsibility. It's my favorite line from the whole Spider-Man movie, right? I think

01:28:35.040 you've seen things that most of us will never see, fortunately. And again, I don't want to

01:28:41.360 get into the, whether it's free will or not free will or how much of this you can take

01:28:44.700 credit for or not. But the point is a lot of people come back from what you've been through

01:28:49.880 and they're worse for it. And I think not only are you better for it, but more importantly,

01:28:54.620 you've sort of figured out a way to share it with a lot of people. And I feel grateful

01:28:58.000 to be one of them.

01:28:58.700 Well, I appreciate it. I can definitely tell you for what you just said, there's a lot

01:29:02.320 of people that are scared of what war does to people. And they think that war has a massively

01:29:06.740 negative impact on people. And I can tell you without a doubt, I'm grateful that I had

01:29:12.060 the opportunity to serve. I'm grateful and unbelievably humbled that I had the opportunity

01:29:17.240 to serve with the guys that I serve with and fight alongside them on the battlefield. And

01:29:21.840 I know that it's made me better being around people like that, seeing what real sacrifice

01:29:28.500 is. And it's an honor to be sitting here. And quite frankly, when I hear a little girl

01:29:35.260 like Olivia, she's on the path. And just the fact that conversation right there means so

01:29:42.420 much to me and it feels so good. And I'll be thinking about that for a long time. And

01:29:47.380 it's awesome. And I'm super happy and stoked that I get to do this. And again, I wouldn't

01:29:53.820 be here if it wasn't for other guys that put down their life, gave their life to give someone

01:30:03.460 like me a knucklehead, this gift and the opportunity to be here. So I'm happy to be

01:30:09.520 here. I'm thankful that I'm here and I appreciate you having me on. And thanks for doing what

01:30:13.800 you do, man.

01:30:16.700 You can find all of this information and more at peteratiamd.com forward slash podcast.

01:30:21.940 There you'll find the show notes, readings, and links related to this episode. You can also

01:30:26.800 find my blog at peteratiamd.com. Maybe the simplest thing to do is to sign up for my subjectively

01:30:32.320 non-lame once a week email where I'll update you on what I've been up to, the most interesting

01:30:36.780 papers I've read, and all things related to longevity, science, performance, sleep, et cetera.

01:30:42.500 On social, you can find me on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook, all with the ID peteratiamd. But

01:30:48.060 usually Twitter is the best way to reach me to share your questions and comments. Now for the

01:30:52.180 obligatory disclaimer, this podcast is for general informational purposes only and does not constitute

01:30:56.820 the practice of medicine, nursing, or other professional healthcare services, including the giving

01:31:01.940 of medical advice. And note, no doctor-patient relationship is formed. The use of this information

01:31:07.800 and the materials linked to the podcast is at the user's own risk. The content of this podcast is

01:31:12.880 not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnoses, or treatment. Users should

01:31:18.260 not disregard or delay in obtaining medical advice for any medical condition they have and should seek

01:31:23.220 the assistance of their healthcare professionals for any such conditions. Lastly, and perhaps most

01:31:28.740 importantly, I take conflicts of interest very seriously. For all of my disclosures, the companies

01:31:33.560 I invest in and or advise, please visit peteratiamd.com forward slash about.

The Peter Attia Drive - June 03, 2019

#56 - Jocko Willink, retired Navy SEAL, Part II of II： Sleep, fasting, raising kids, discipline, taking ownership, and the impact of war

Episode Stats

Length

Words per Minute

Word Count

Sentence Count

Misogynist Sentences

Hate Speech Sentences

Summary

Transcript