The Peter Attia Drive - #78 - Sasha Cohen： The price of achievement, and redefining success

00:00:00.000 Hey everyone, welcome to the Peter Atiyah drive. I'm your host, Peter Atiyah. The drive

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00:04:08.480 supporting us directly by signing up for a monthly subscription. My guest this week is Sasha Cohen.

00:04:13.600 For those of you who may not recognize her name, she's an American figure skating legend. In fact,

00:04:18.680 the last female, I believe, to win a medal in figure skating. She was a silver medalist in the 2006

00:04:25.340 Olympics. And I don't waste any time in this episode going straight to that moment because on

00:04:31.740 some levels, it is one of the most remarkable parts of her story, frankly. And I don't want to

00:04:36.740 sort of spoil the story, but needless to say, if you only watch one video from all of the videos or

00:04:43.040 anything we talk about in this talk, that's the one you want to see. And I actually, frankly,

00:04:47.720 this might be one of those times where I recommend you, before you even listen to the podcast,

00:04:51.560 you go to the video of the final for the long program in the 2006 Olympics, and you watch this

00:04:59.660 six minute video, seven minute video, whatever it is, obviously it's linked to in the show notes.

00:05:03.920 But for those of you who aren't subscribers and don't get the show notes, I still want you to be

00:05:06.940 able to go see this video because that's exactly where I go to at the outset of this discussion.

00:05:13.440 We then work our way a little bit backwards and talk about her life growing up and how she

00:05:18.620 was able to channel and focus all of her insecurity into becoming such a great skater.

00:05:24.560 But much more importantly, we talk about this life post skating for her. And I think in many ways,

00:05:29.820 Sasha is kind of a remarkable example of how a person can remake themselves from being 0.89

00:05:35.280 completely focused on one thing and having their entire identity tied up in one thing and moving

00:05:41.640 past it. And again, I think what comes across here is the just maturity and wisdom of a person who is

00:05:48.080 remarkably adept at understanding the hollowness, the shallowness of achievements. For me, certainly

00:05:56.060 this is something that just really resonated to be able to hear her talk about this. So even though,

00:06:01.020 again, we're talking to, you know, a former world champion Olympian superstar, there's a lot in this

00:06:07.680 episode for normal people like us who aren't that way. And again, we explore the depths of

00:06:13.600 depression. You know, we talk about the statistics of how many Olympians go on to suffer depression and

00:06:19.100 talk about her involvement in a project that's meant to bring a lot of awareness to this. We talk

00:06:23.940 about a lot of other things as well. So without further delay, please enjoy my conversation with

00:06:28.740 Sasha Cohen. Sasha, thanks so much for coming over. Thank you for having me. I'm really excited for this.

00:06:36.380 There's so much I want to talk with you about. And this, as I was saying, even before interviewing

00:06:42.400 somebody, you get to know a lot more about them than you may have known before. It sort of accelerates

00:06:46.880 your learning about a person in the weeks leading up to the interview. I mean, if you're sort of doing

00:06:51.060 your homework, which you obviously want to be doing, you're learning so much more. And I think I

00:06:56.940 forgot, you know, 2006 is a long time ago. On some levels, it doesn't seem like that's that long

00:07:01.100 ago. It's like, yeah, it's 2006. Like I sort of remember that, but, but you realize, no, that's 13

00:07:05.120 years ago. And to go back and watch the footage of the Olympics, I sort of forgot a few things.

00:07:12.540 Cause I sort of remember watching that at the time. I mean, as every Olympic athlete knows, that's the

00:07:18.160 time when the rest of the country completely stops what they're doing to focus on sports that aren't

00:07:22.200 football, basketball, baseball, hockey. But I was really blown away by what has to be one of the

00:07:32.840 more challenging and yet remarkable achievements of your athletic career. And I say that because

00:07:39.420 it's a small footnote to what I think will be the broader arc of your life, which we'll talk about. But

00:07:44.680 I want to, for a moment, go right there and then back up and give people some context about the

00:07:52.040 sport of figure skating. But take us to the 2006 Olympics. You were favored. What was the

00:08:00.120 expectation for you after being a 17 year old, almost making the podium? I think you were fourth

00:08:05.560 in 2002, correct? Correct. It was my second games and I was one of the favorites going in. There were

00:08:13.580 strong competitors also from Japan and from Russia. And it's a moment in your life where it's rare as a

00:08:19.400 figure skater or a gymnast or in certain sports to go to one Olympics, let alone two. And so you know

00:08:25.960 that most likely this will be your last games. And figure skating, the ladies competition is at the

00:08:32.320 very, very end of the Olympics. And so the whole two weeks before most everyone is gone, the Olympic

00:08:39.500 village has turned into just a party scene. And so... Sodom and Gomorrah. Exactly. So generally the figure

00:08:47.420 skaters are not staying in the village. We're isolated. Perhaps we're missing opening ceremonies

00:08:51.700 to really focus in and hone on this one moment that we've spent our whole life basically since

00:08:57.140 we were toddlers training for. It was difficult because six months before I was flying high. I was

00:09:05.780 in the best physical shape, mental shape. I was very, very strong. And then over that winter,

00:09:11.560 I had a series of injuries, equipment problems, and it was really tough because I was going into

00:09:18.420 the Olympics not feeling prepared. And I've said that it feels like you have to walk a pirate's

00:09:24.240 plank and you know that you kind of have to just jump into the sharks and you don't feel prepared or

00:09:30.340 equipped to handle it, but the show must go on and you have to keep putting one foot in front of the

00:09:34.800 other. So that was kind of the mental state that I was in. Even if you're in the best shape of your

00:09:41.940 life, it's still the enormity of the games. And this, these few minutes you have to fulfill a

00:09:48.060 lifelong dream is just immense pressure. Now, is that different from the pressure you feel in 2002

00:09:54.160 when nobody knows you and it's amazing that you're there? I mean, how much of what you just said

00:09:59.520 is not just the fact that you're going to the Olympics, but that you're going to the Olympics as a

00:10:02.980 favorite? I think definitely going in as a favorite, you just, so a 17 year old brain and a 21 year old

00:10:09.740 brain are a little bit different. And my first Olympics was actually my first huge international

00:10:15.200 competition. I'd never been to a world championship. So I was thrilled to make the team. I was competing

00:10:22.360 on my home soil in, in Utah and Salt Lake city. And I went to opening ceremonies and I was just like a

00:10:29.680 kid in a canyon shop and it was just incredible how Salt Lake was transformed. So it was pretty magical.

00:10:36.280 And of course I was nervous in these moments, but the spotlight was really on, on these favorites and

00:10:40.840 that were duking it out. And I was disappointed that I, I, you know, was close to a medal, but didn't

00:10:46.580 medal in Salt Lake. But really when it came to Italy, I felt in 2006, I felt all eyes were on me. And this is,

00:10:53.300 this is the moment that I've been waiting for to redeem myself from, from four years back. And

00:10:59.600 I'm not at my best. I'm not ready as an athlete. You're generally homeschooled and you're analyzing

00:11:06.300 videos and you're training and you're spending your whole life planning like four years out.

00:11:10.240 And so you're always analyzing every little thing you might've done wrong or how you could do something

00:11:14.280 better. And I couldn't help thinking like, how am I here about to compete in the Olympics? And I'm not

00:11:21.240 prepared. What did I do wrong? And I think something that I've learned a lot about myself

00:11:26.940 since then is that we can't control everything. And as athletes, we think we can, that we can

00:11:33.180 control and prevent any injury that might arise or any equipment problems. And, and it's very hard

00:11:40.180 to admit to yourself that you can't control everything because that's what you've spent your

00:11:43.460 whole life trying to do. That's what's up to you.

00:11:46.380 Does anybody else in your really inner circle, and I'm guessing at this point, your mom and your

00:11:50.780 coach are probably the two closest people to you when it comes to what you could be feeling?

00:11:55.200 Is that a fair statement?

00:11:57.180 Yes. Mainly my mom, you know, she was the one that, that came with me in all my competitions,

00:12:00.940 took me to the rink and physical therapy and off ice since I was seven years old. So we really bonded.

00:12:08.400 And she was, she was probably the only one I was super vulnerable to, to the outside world. It was,

00:12:14.200 I'm fine. I've been training. I'm prepared. You don't want to admit weakness. It's like,

00:12:19.140 everyone's a shark and they can smell blood. And so you're always putting on this brave face and,

00:12:24.680 and it's kind of a fake it till you make it. Because if you show fear,

00:12:28.120 you give others confidence and you undermine yourself.

00:12:31.440 When did the Olympic trials take place for figure skating?

00:12:33.920 They're usually in mid, early to mid January. And then the Olympics are kind of the middle,

00:12:40.720 like kind of early to the end of February.

00:12:42.720 So it's very close to the Olympic games.

00:12:44.420 About a month.

00:12:45.020 So how did you do in the trials? I mean, I don't mean, how did you do in terms of what

00:12:49.260 was your position? Obviously we know you made it to the Olympic team, but how did you feel at the

00:12:53.400 trials and what did that do to your confidence?

00:12:56.540 I was going in with the flu and I had a high fever. So I had missed a week of training going in.

00:13:03.180 And so I was pretty weak and frail, but I, I managed to, to skate well. I won that national

00:13:09.980 championship, but it wasn't this really strong at my height showing. And, and then after that,

00:13:17.120 it proceeded not to get better, but to get worse in my training at home with other injuries

00:13:21.480 going into, into the games where I was in physical therapy every day and had ionophoresis on my,

00:13:28.780 my inner thighs. And, and it was just, it was a tough place to be because you want to train harder,

00:13:34.360 but then you push yourself and you become more injured and you set yourself back. And so it's

00:13:39.320 just this, this delicate balance of, of trying to navigate. So let's explain to folks how this

00:13:45.100 program works. Most people sort of know there were a couple of different skates. There's a short

00:13:49.080 and a long, the long is sometimes referred to as the free skate as well. What are the parameters

00:13:54.440 involved? The short program is usually two minutes and 50 seconds. There's three jumping passes.

00:14:01.480 There's a footwork sequence, a spiral sequence and three spins. And, and the long program

00:14:07.640 is a little over four minutes, four, 10. And it, the rules keep changing. But at the time that I was

00:14:16.300 competing, I think you're allowed eight jumping passes and you could do jumps in combination

00:14:22.320 as well as requirements of three to four spins and then a footwork sequence and a spiral sequence

00:14:28.420 as well. But there's more flexibility in terms of if you do a combination or you don't do a

00:14:33.800 combination. And, and it's all about trying at the time that I was competing to aggregate more and

00:14:38.860 more points.

00:14:40.400 At the end of a short program. So there are how many judges?

00:14:43.840 You're testing my memory now. So different competitions vary, but I believe it's usually

00:14:48.080 nine and there's a backup judge.

00:14:50.160 Got it. And it's like some, it's up to six points. Is that the most?

00:14:53.420 It used to be a 6.0 system that shifted in the early, early 2000s. And by the time that I was

00:15:00.740 competing, no one really knew what their score meant until they compared it to someone else's score

00:15:05.100 because every competition would have new highs and, and it was, it was all relative, but it was,

00:15:10.640 there was no cap to how high you could go. And so you didn't know if your score was the best score

00:15:16.160 until you compared it to others.

00:15:17.600 Got it. At the end of the short program, which I assume is sort of done in reverse order of

00:15:24.960 favorites such that the, which we don't get a sense of when you're watching this on TV,

00:15:28.580 because you're not actually watching every single person there, but how many women would have skated 0.99

00:15:34.400 in the short program, for example?

00:15:36.420 They eliminate after the short program. So I believe it could have been up to 30 people in the

00:15:40.900 short program, but it's a random draw for the short program. Only the long program is done based on

00:15:46.240 results in the short program and in groups of six. So it's not a complete reverse of order,

00:15:51.840 but it's in six and you draw. And then after the short program, I think the people like their last

00:15:56.740 six places are eliminated. So then when you go into the long program, it's more like 24 skaters.

00:16:02.720 And this is, this is rough approximation. This was a while ago.

00:16:06.520 It is still amazing. We'll come back to this in more detail, but it's sort of hard for mere mortals

00:16:12.400 like me to even understand what it means to make an Olympic team or in a time sport to even make

00:16:17.640 an Olympic standard. You know, there are some countries in the U S we take this for granted,

00:16:21.560 but there are many countries where you don't even have to, you just have to make the Olympic

00:16:25.100 standard and you get to go. Like there are so few athletes that could even do that in a given event,

00:16:29.500 like, you know, a running event, for example, it is sort of hard to believe that all of the

00:16:34.120 athletes in the world are winnowed down to 20, 24, 30, whatever it is. And then away you go.

00:16:39.360 So going into this, would you say your strength was more on the short program and the long program,

00:16:46.520 or how did these differ? I mean, the difference in duration must obviously pose a different

00:16:50.700 physiologic stress. What are the other differences between them from the standpoint of the athlete,

00:16:55.280 either, either it be mentally or physiologically? I think the short program, the margin for error

00:17:01.180 is, is zero. There's fewer elements. And so if you make one mistake, you really drop in the ranks.

00:17:08.780 And if you make two, it's just, you're, you can put yourself out of the running for a medal and

00:17:13.980 the long program. It's definitely more for some people, it can be more mental. It's longer,

00:17:19.780 there's more elements, but there's more of an opportunity to take risk, to try harder elements

00:17:25.200 and different athletes tend to favor different formats. I tended to like the short program format

00:17:31.520 more. It was more condensed, more fiery. And I think it's just very different depending on what

00:17:36.740 kind of athlete you are. Like you're saying, there's more endurance and play in the long program

00:17:41.120 mentally and physically. And there's also a finality to it. Whereas in gymnastics, events are

00:17:47.580 usually standalone in figure skating, the short and long program are combined. So you're setting the

00:17:53.500 stage with a short program, but it's by no means final. And it's not weighted as heavily as the long

00:17:59.540 program is weighted. For some people, they see it as more pressure because you can't make a mistake.

00:18:04.660 And in some ways it's less pressure because it doesn't count for as much as the long. And it's

00:18:08.560 just, it's everyone kind of getting initiated and seeing where you rank.

00:18:14.340 You were first coming out of the short program in 2006. How did you feel? I mean, you're probably

00:18:21.640 your own harshest critic. How did you judge your performance in that short program?

00:18:26.200 It certainly wasn't my strongest short program that I had done, but considering the level of preparation

00:18:33.560 that I had going in and, and meant in my mental confidence, I was, I was thrilled with it because

00:18:39.800 I hadn't done a clean and clean means making no mistakes. I hadn't done a clean short program

00:18:46.040 in weeks. I had struggled to even do full run throughs because I was nursing injuries and

00:18:52.120 just really struggling. So I think I skated towards the end, if not last, after my competitors had

00:19:00.520 skated good programs and there's this immensity that you feel in the air and, and knowing that

00:19:07.520 this moment has arrived and you're not ready. And so when I went out there and ended up landing

00:19:13.640 my three different jumping passes and making it to the end, I was just exuberant and thrilled and

00:19:20.180 relieved. And then when I saw my name on the leaderboard and I was in first place, I couldn't

00:19:26.600 believe it. It was a thrill and it's a temporary victory, right? So you have one day off and then

00:19:32.300 you're back to the long program. But in that moment I was, I was triumphant.

00:19:36.680 So how did you spend that day between the short and the long program?

00:19:40.720 I had actually strained my, my leg during my performance. And so I had decided to take the

00:19:48.900 day in between off in order to be fresher and to not continue to exasperate the injury in between the

00:19:56.580 short and long programs, which really confuse everyone because no one skips a practice. You

00:20:02.520 get 40 minutes a day and people are used to training for hours at home. So people just

00:20:08.040 jump all over that time.

00:20:10.440 Oh, I never even thought of that. So of course you now have whatever the 20, 24 skaters that now have

00:20:16.000 one day to get ready for the long program and you're not going to put them all on the ice at the

00:20:19.380 same time. So everybody gets their 40 minute block and you're not showing up for yours.

00:20:23.760 I'm not showing up for mine. And that certainly confused people. The idea was...

00:20:30.660 Is that your decision or your coach's decision?

00:20:32.760 I think it was a joint decision. The physical therapist was coming to see me a few times a day.

00:20:37.760 It seemed like a good decision. Again, I think you always second guess everything in hindsight.

00:20:43.960 But considering where I was and how injured I was at the time, it did seem like the best decision

00:20:49.100 because at a certain point you've done everything so many times that it's how you feel physically

00:20:55.360 which really informs how you feel mentally in the moment that you step out to perform.

00:21:00.820 You step onto the ice now for the long program. You know, I've watched that video many times.

00:21:06.340 It's hard because when you're watching it now on video, knowing the outcome, it's different than

00:21:10.640 watching it live. And truthfully, I can't tell you that I see in your face

00:21:15.020 any reduction in confidence. I can say I do because that's the narrative I'd place over it.

00:21:21.800 What do you see when you go and watch yourself? First of all, do you go back and watch that?

00:21:27.260 It took me a very long time to watch it. I believe it took me a few years before I ever watched it.

00:21:34.040 I was in an acting program and one of my classmates found out that I was a skater and watched my

00:21:41.320 performance. And it was like, it was so dramatic and it's so great. And like, we should watch it

00:21:46.600 together. I'm like, I'm not watching it with you. So he finally convinced me to watch it with him.

00:21:51.540 But even though I didn't do the warmup, the longer 40 minute warmup, there's a five or six minute

00:21:57.680 warmup before you skate. And during that warmup, I fell on jumps that I usually don't fall in.

00:22:03.140 And I fell on a triple flip in the warmup and I fell on a triple lutz. And it just,

00:22:08.380 I think it really shook me. Figure skating is like a sport where you're jumping. And if you

00:22:14.720 hesitate for a millisecond, you throw off a whole timing of a jump. And going into that program,

00:22:20.580 I knew, wow, I just fell on things I don't normally fall on in my warmup. And now I'm going out and

00:22:26.420 this is it. Everything that I've prepared for, this is my second chance. This is my, this is my moment.

00:22:33.140 And I don't know what's going to happen. And I'm not as prepared as I want to be. But again,

00:22:37.280 you can't admit any of this to yourself. It's all gets buried and compacted deep within you.

00:22:43.420 And so you go out and you, you just try to stay in the moment. So getting ready, it'd be just,

00:22:50.660 all you need to do right now is put on makeup. All you need to do is put on your pants. All you need

00:22:54.720 to do is get on the bus. You know, all you need to do is jog around the arena and,

00:22:58.440 and keep it simple because the enormity of the expectation and everything you need to do and

00:23:04.540 the crowds cheering can really unravel you. And so I think that's a training and a skill set that

00:23:09.800 you develop over years of competing. And, and when I went out and when I started,

00:23:16.780 it was a surprise to me when I fell on my first, my first jump. And you partially register it.

00:23:24.380 And I partially registered just this kind of hush from the arena. This was the first one,

00:23:29.620 the triple Lutz. The first one was a triple Lutz combination that I found for folks who

00:23:33.360 haven't watched figure skating much. I don't know that I know I could recognize a lot. I don't know

00:23:37.080 how I just would describe it. So you're skating, usually taking most of the rink to prepare and

00:23:43.040 gaining speed, skating backwards and people jump both ways. But for me, I would be skating on

00:23:48.780 backwards on my left foot on my outside edge with my right foot in the air. And then my right foot

00:23:54.520 would reach behind me and tap kind of like a pole vault. And then I would begin, I would jump and

00:24:01.660 begin to rotate counterclockwise. It's considered one of the harder triple jumps and the triple axel is

00:24:08.740 the hardest.

00:24:09.640 We'll come back to the triple axel because I don't think a woman has ever landed a quad axel. Has,

00:24:14.540 has that ever been done yet?

00:24:15.520 I don't think a man has ever landed a quad axel.

00:24:19.360 Maybe I'm thinking a man's done a triple, but a woman's not done a triple. 1.00

00:24:22.820 Midori Ito has done a triple axel. And then I think in the team competition,

00:24:27.280 Mariah Nagasu has done a triple axel, but I believe that was not in the ladies' singles.

00:24:33.400 Okay. Got it. But you're saying it's possible a man has never landed a quad axel either then.

00:24:37.180 I don't know why I thought.

00:24:37.920 Not that I know of. They, they do all the other quads.

00:24:40.500 I thought Elvis Stoico had done a quad, but maybe.

00:24:42.820 He's done a quad, but not a quad axel.

00:24:44.240 Got it.

00:24:45.080 That would be four and a half turns.

00:24:47.360 Well, we'll go on. I want to come back to all of that because, you know, growing up in Canada,

00:24:50.840 figure skating is, you know, along with hockey, it is a sport we paid a lot of attention to

00:24:54.660 growing up. And there were some great Canadian figure skaters.

00:24:57.300 Yeah. Elvis and Kurt were icons.

00:24:59.580 Just to put this in context, like I'm still struggling to understand how one trains for this

00:25:03.800 because I can't imagine like you go to a practice and you would do that whole four

00:25:10.260 minute, 10 second routine by itself, right? I mean, wouldn't you practice by breaking that down

00:25:16.020 into short segments and doing those and working on the transitions as opposed to just going through

00:25:20.400 the whole thing?

00:25:21.500 You would do both. There would be a lot of emphasis placed on the whole run through

00:25:25.160 and then mocking competition conditions. So that might mean you go into a five minute warmup,

00:25:31.420 you get off the ice at home and you wait, and then you go out and no one else on the ice and

00:25:35.660 you have to go, someone presses play for you versus getting to restart or skating with everyone

00:25:41.000 else and taking 30 minutes to warm up. And then you'll also just repeatedly train segments.

00:25:47.540 And sometimes it could be the beginning and the end, or maybe just at the beginning three times in a

00:25:51.420 row to work on cardio and stamina. And so you're, you're trying to train yourself mentally.

00:25:57.640 You're trying to train physically so that stamina isn't an issue when you're at the end

00:26:01.960 and everyone's a little different. And that's, I think the thing that was always so tough for me

00:26:06.380 is there's no, there was no formula. And with some people more was better. And for, for other people

00:26:13.240 more means you break and then you ultimately set yourself back. And so it's, it was always this tough

00:26:19.660 push pull of, am I being lazy or am I being smart? And sometimes that, you know, the person,

00:26:27.240 something inside was just like, I'm not sure, but I have to do this again and again and again. 0.98

00:26:33.120 And then you end up injured and then you feel like an idiot because now you have to take a week off. 0.67

00:26:37.160 But that was, that was a very hard balance for me because I, I did get injured easily.

00:26:42.060 One of the things that has always amazed me about figure skating. And again, your fall in that triple

00:26:46.860 Lutz at the outset of the long program was yet another remarkable example of it to me is the

00:26:54.000 ability that the skater has to immediately resume the choreography as though nothing happened. And

00:27:00.220 that amazes me for two reasons. The first is physically anthropometrically, meaning where you

00:27:07.060 are in space can't be predicted by a fall. So it's one thing to go through a series of movements and do

00:27:14.140 them perfectly every time. And therefore know exactly where you're going to be that next moment.

00:27:20.340 It's quite another thing when you fall and you're never going to fall exactly the same way twice.

00:27:25.500 So every time you fall, you're going to land in a different position slightly or roll into a

00:27:29.720 different position. And yet you have to be able to go from a first time being in a given position

00:27:34.900 to right back into it. So that has always amazed me. The second thing that's amazed me amazes me

00:27:40.700 actually a lot more, which is the sort of courage to be able to stand up when at that level, a fall

00:27:48.840 of that nature almost guarantees you can't win, right? I mean, sure, you know, as we'll see in your

00:27:56.560 case, you didn't miss by much a gold despite that fall. But who has the processing speed internally to

00:28:05.720 do the math and go, well, technically I could still, you know, be perfect the rest of this.

00:28:09.940 I mean, in the end, it's just so crushing to your confidence in that moment. And yet it's that ability

00:28:14.220 to, to stand up and go again that I, I find more moving, I think, frankly, than any aspect of the

00:28:22.240 sport. And it's different from other sports, even individual sports where it's crushing like tennis,

00:28:28.300 you know, you're out there all alone. You're, you know, there's no one to hide behind,

00:28:31.860 but you, you make the worst play in the world. The most, your damage is capped. It is finite loss.

00:28:38.920 It is, it is not finite loss in a sport like figure skating. When you make a mistake, it can

00:28:43.060 be catastrophic and you can lose the entire competition, especially if you can't get up

00:28:47.960 and get back into the zone. So is there anything going on in your head consciously as all that's

00:28:53.680 happening? Or is it that in practice, every time you fall, the practice is getting up and going right

00:28:59.760 back into it as opposed to falling, thinking about why you fell, reflecting on it and repracticing

00:29:04.360 it, if that makes sense. Practice is certainly a component of it. And my coach always taught me,

00:29:12.340 you don't fall, you bounce. So as soon as you hit the ice, you're up. Not only do you have to find

00:29:18.580 physically where you go in space, but musically it has to match. And a lot of times when you fall,

00:29:24.220 especially if you're sliding or you hit the boards, all of a sudden you're late and you're trying

00:29:28.080 to make up time because you know on the next musical indication, you're supposed to be

00:29:32.200 halfway across the ice and you're still trying to get yourself up. So, so there's certainly that

00:29:37.380 element, but I think it's a combination of things. First of all, there's so much going on

00:29:42.920 that you don't have time to sulk in it, to, to let it hit you. The, what the implications of that fall,

00:29:53.020 you, you have to block that as fast as you can because like the firing is continuing.

00:29:59.360 For me, it was like, I felt myself hit the ice. I heard the audience just go, oh, and, and that

00:30:06.740 it's not always your own disappointment. It's something I've always struggled with is not wanting

00:30:10.700 to disappoint others. And so now I have a stadium full of people that are just audibly groaning and

00:30:17.800 disappointed and, and you have to keep going on. And it's, it's kind of being in this embarrassing,

00:30:24.000 catastrophic nightmare where you can't hide. It's like, it's like someone's ripped off your

00:30:28.900 clothes, but you can't run off and hide. You have to hold your chin up and keep going and pretend like

00:30:33.500 you're fine. And then I go into the next jump, the triple flip. I didn't quite fall, but I had a very

00:30:40.140 severe step out. And then I hear both your hands hit the ice. Yeah. It was pretty much as close to a fall

00:30:46.080 as, as you can get. I mean, I've been watching the video again. I've watched it now so much in

00:30:50.900 the preceding, you know, few weeks, but I forgot. I mean, it's like amazing. You don't break your

00:30:55.000 wrist sometimes the way you would put your arms down and you're not the only skater I've seen do

00:30:58.740 that, but that's a, that's a hard hit. I don't know. You probably don't even recall it. No, I don't

00:31:04.440 know what to ascribe it to other than, you know, I generally have loose ligaments. I fall all the time

00:31:10.080 and people look like, how did you not tear your ACL and everything? I would break my wrists if I fell into the

00:31:15.380 position you did. But again, for the person who's, and anybody at this point who's listening to this

00:31:20.200 is going to go back and watch this video and it will do more justice to what I'm trying to,

00:31:24.340 to, to articulate. But again, it hadn't even started. I mean, the music you chose for that

00:31:31.040 piece, which I'd like to talk about all elements of this, we're focusing on sort of the, the most

00:31:34.920 challenging parts of this, but in terms of like the music and the actual choreography and the

00:31:40.020 performances, I don't think I'm alone in saying it's certainly one of the more beautiful

00:31:44.240 performances in all of women's figure skating. And yet it hadn't even really started. You're

00:31:49.240 sort of one, two punch. And if I was amazed the first time that you got up, that says nothing

00:31:57.200 about what it felt like to watch you get up the second time. It's like, how is she doing

00:32:01.120 this?

00:32:02.120 I think you get very good at denial as an athlete and at blocking things out because they would

00:32:08.940 be too much to take. So if you actually process what's happening and where you are in space

00:32:15.520 and time, because you have to understand going into this, I saw the Olympics as this just huge

00:32:21.760 looming, like the sun, like the horizon and Henry, but I couldn't imagine anything beyond

00:32:25.620 it. And it's the same way that we know that we one day will die, but we can't imagine that

00:32:30.940 actually taking place and what's beyond it. And that's the same way I couldn't imagine

00:32:34.820 March of 2006. I'm like, yeah, I know it's going to come, but I don't understand that.

00:32:39.360 Let me pause for a moment then and ask you a question, which I'm going to ask you to try

00:32:42.900 to answer through the lens of February 2006. Because you've heard all these surveys and

00:32:47.400 questions where, you know, you walk into the Olympic Village and you ask all of the Olympians

00:32:51.600 there, like, would you be willing to be dead in 10 years if it could guarantee you a gold

00:32:56.340 medal at these games? And I don't remember the numbers, but the numbers suggest that the

00:33:00.760 answer to that question is yes in a staggeringly high amount, which I think speaks to, look,

00:33:06.660 if you can't even picture March 2006, what the hell would March 2016 even mean? Do you

00:33:12.540 understand or can you relate to that ethos of, like, you would die in 10 years to have

00:33:18.200 been the best in the world undisputed on that day?

00:33:22.480 It was never posed to me as making that type of trade. I think now I can't imagine it, but,

00:33:29.000 you know, who knows at the time, but it just, it was everything. It was an identity. It was your

00:33:34.740 chance to prove yourself to the world. It was everything that you were. And so everything was

00:33:40.420 riding on it. It was just so absolute. And failing was the worst thing. And the sad thing is in a sport

00:33:47.900 like, like figure skating, if you're a medal contender, failing is getting second. Very few people

00:33:54.580 will say, oh, congratulations. You have an Olympic medal. It's more that you lost the gold. You just

00:34:01.420 don't know what to do with yourself. You have your own disappointment. You have the disappointment of

00:34:05.560 everyone around you, Team USA fans, your family, and the people that flew out. And it's, it is kind of

00:34:12.580 sad in hindsight to see just the, the nature of the interviews that, you know, I had a string of

00:34:20.820 interviews right after I competed and it was just like, you know, your dreams are kind of dashed and,

00:34:27.100 and you, you fell twice. Like, how could you do this? Like, how devastated are you? And that,

00:34:31.960 that's what it's all about and reinforcing. And I think when you grow up in this bubble and your

00:34:37.780 whole identity is as an athlete and as a figure skater, and all you want to do is prove to yourself

00:34:44.240 and the world that you're good enough, but good enough means first. And that's a very hard game to

00:34:49.020 play. And I think it's not something that you can fully realize at the time, you know, as a teenager

00:34:53.880 or as a 21 year old. And I think it's something that takes years to, to deconstruct after. And

00:35:00.720 something that I've always found so interesting is I've, I'm an overly analytical person and I've

00:35:05.740 thought, oh, if I had just skated perfectly on that day, and if I had, if I had won, then there

00:35:11.800 would be nothing to resolve. There would be no searching. And what I found is even fellow athletes,

00:35:18.040 like Apollo Ono or Michael Phelps, who have won multiple Olympic gold medals and are heroes and

00:35:24.300 icons, still struggle. Because I think so much of what we gear our lives and performance for is for

00:35:31.100 a moment. And even if you win in that moment, that moment passes. And then you still need something new

00:35:38.280 to define you, to prove that you're still good enough, because now you're just last years or last

00:35:43.900 Olympics. And then you constantly need a vehicle to prove yourself.

00:35:48.060 That's such a great example. I mean, as you know, I'm really close friends with Apollo. We're going to be

00:35:51.940 seeing him next week. We're going to play patty cakes together. But, you know, swimming is a sport I love,

00:35:56.740 right? And that's a sport that from the standpoint of following it and knowing the metrics, there were a few

00:36:00.520 people who could rattle off more swimming statistics than me. So I followed Michael Phelps from 2000,

00:36:06.080 actually, you know, even before most people knew who he was when he was just a kid who made the

00:36:09.800 Olympic team and managed to get fifth in the 200 fly, which is a huge deal in Sydney. And I was kind

00:36:15.820 of amazed last month when his world records in the 200 fly and the 100 fly fell. So at the world

00:36:22.940 championships this year, 2019, I was amazed at how people were writing about him as though it weren't

00:36:30.060 that impressive what he had done. And I mean, I'm reading these things and I'm like, these people have

00:36:35.500 lost their mind. Like they have no idea what he has accomplished in the water. And yeah, these two

00:36:42.620 incredible swimmers have come along and broken world records. In one case, he's held for 18 years.

00:36:49.800 And it might even be the case now, I haven't checked in a while, it might be the case that the only world

00:36:53.280 record Phelps still holds is in the 400 IM from Beijing. But the point is, as someone who doesn't

00:36:59.600 know Michael, but just has always been a fan and knows, I can tell you his place and time in every race

00:37:04.560 he's ever done, I'm amazed at how quickly he, his greatness is also fading in the memory of the

00:37:12.260 average person, right? Like we will likely never see an Olympian like that again, ever, ever, ever,

00:37:19.140 ever in another hundred years. And yet only three years after his last Olympics, he's sort of

00:37:25.660 yesterday's news, which I think speaks to this point you're making, which is maybe the brighter that

00:37:32.100 star is the longer it takes to fade, but every one of these things fades. It's interesting what

00:37:37.860 you're saying. It's, which you, it's almost like you're suggesting that you went through a period of

00:37:42.540 time thinking if only I had won, things would have been different, but it seems that you don't really

00:37:49.160 buy that rhetoric. Regardless, you lose an identity. So win, lose or draw. So much is signified and held

00:37:59.700 within a gold medal and being number one, this absolute, this peak. It symbolizes that you didn't

00:38:06.000 leave anything on the table. It symbolizes no regrets. It symbolizes that you accomplished what

00:38:12.040 you set out for and, and the world recognizes you as the victor. And all of a sudden silver just brings

00:38:18.600 up all these questions. Like what went wrong? Was it you? Was someone better than you? How are you going to

00:38:24.160 live with that? It just, there's another element to it, but, but regardless when you decide to retire or if an

00:38:32.260 injury forces you to retire, you still lose the identity. And I think that is what is so challenging for so

00:38:39.000 many Olympians because you have sacrificed everything homeschooled. You have no balance. You generally don't

00:38:46.160 have many other outside interests. And if you do, they're certainly not developed. Few friendships and, and it's just

00:38:52.880 this one thing. And so even if you win and then all of a sudden that identity is taken from you,

00:39:01.360 it's like, I'm a figure skater. That's who I am. That's how everyone sees me. But once you stop figure

00:39:06.420 skating, then who are you? And as you know, someone in my mid twenties trying to figure out who that was,

00:39:13.300 was very difficult because I didn't develop other interests or hobbies in, in middle school and high

00:39:19.220 school, I didn't develop close friendships. I didn't go to college at the age of 18. So you're

00:39:24.540 kind of left on your own, somewhat isolated. And Olympians aren't really sharing this when they

00:39:30.180 retire. Cause I think they're kind of with their, they're in their own heads, they're in their own

00:39:33.900 sports and they're dealing with this with their families or maybe with some of their close friends.

00:39:39.480 And so you don't really realize this is normal. And everything about being an athlete is about

00:39:44.900 projecting confidence and power and that you're fine and you're always fine. You just kind of get

00:39:50.840 in the habit of not portraying weakness of not asking for help. And it's always you, it's always

00:39:56.160 your fault. I think athletes are some of the most accountable people. We're generally not saying,

00:40:01.620 oh, it was, it was the ice or it was that, or these outside influences. It's all you. My training

00:40:08.280 wasn't good enough or I mentally got distracted or the pressure was too much. So we feel like we have

00:40:15.500 to fix everything, you know, because it's, we've been told that it's all up to us and it's our moment

00:40:21.180 and we're either going to make it or we're not. So I think that's something I'm, I'm trying to find a

00:40:26.940 balance with life now is this balance of making life happen and allowing it to happen, allowing for

00:40:33.120 serendipity and opportunity and these, all these things that happen in life that as an athlete, you

00:40:38.680 think you can control everything, but you can't. When you finished that long program, which again

00:40:44.920 is beautiful, right? I mean, if you take these first 30 seconds out of that program, I don't think I'm

00:40:50.960 alone in saying this. I think many people have written and certainly I've read many accounts of it

00:40:54.420 describing it as one of the greatest programs in all of women's figure skating. Were you proud of how

00:40:59.880 you finished? I was certainly proud of how I finished. And I think of that moment after I

00:41:05.660 had missed my second jump and I was heading 15 seconds later into my third jump, a difficult jump

00:41:10.960 for me. You just kind of like, what's going to happen on the other side of this, but you have to

00:41:15.820 go in and just remind yourself, okay, like set the shoulders, like pull back, snap, and just get back

00:41:22.600 into the word by word guidance that you give yourself through the program. And I landed that jump and it

00:41:28.720 was kind of a relief. It's like, okay, now I have a second and I had a spin and a few moments and the

00:41:33.420 music shifted. But at that moment, you're still kind of realizing like there went the gold, but

00:41:39.600 you're just trying to keep your head back because your head wants to go all these places. But as an

00:41:43.980 athlete, you've taught yourself to suppress emotions, feelings, and doubts. And especially when you still

00:41:51.800 are on the line and you have to perform. And so as I ended up landing each consecutive jump,

00:41:58.000 there was this sense of relief and the music was very emotional. It was Romeo and Juliet from the

00:42:04.320 movie and I just loved it. And so I allowed myself to really kind of get into some of the pain and the

00:42:10.620 expressiveness of the music. And, you know, I was relieved when I was done, but I was also crestfallen

00:42:16.880 and it was still trying to process everything at once. And in some ways it was kind of a messy

00:42:23.960 night. A lot of girls were falling and that usually doesn't happen at an Olympics. You know, 0.97

00:42:29.040 at another games, I would have been eighth or 10th and I ended up second because the top three girls 0.95

00:42:34.140 all made mistakes. So I can see that silver medal is just, wow, I was so lucky to medal considering how

00:42:39.940 I skated. But I think at the same time, you just know that this wasn't the state of preparation.

00:42:46.080 I wanted to be going in. This wasn't the performance that I wanted to give.

00:42:50.920 And I don't know what I could have done differently. And I think that's the biggest

00:42:54.040 thing for me is I'm a perfectionist. I want to understand everything. Things should be rational

00:42:59.080 and I want to fix everything. And so when you don't really understand, sometimes it's hard to

00:43:04.420 have closure and figure out what it means and what you could have done, if you could have done anything

00:43:09.200 at all. When you accept the medal, when you go back with your family that night and your coach,

00:43:16.080 are you already in your mind starting to think about the next thing? Are you already thinking

00:43:23.600 about the next world championships or the next Olympics, God forbid, four years down the line?

00:43:29.000 Or are you able to, in this particular moment I'm referring to specifically,

00:43:33.320 able to take some comfort in what you've just achieved?

00:43:37.200 I would say usually if it's a national championship or a Grand Prix, you're thinking about the next

00:43:42.060 thing because those are events gearing up to bigger events. But the Olympics is just...

00:43:47.560 Well, this one in particular, the bittersweetness of this one.

00:43:50.620 As soon as I was done competing, it was press conference, drug testing, and then media circuit

00:43:56.300 hitting all the, I believe it was hitting all the morning shows. And then every time they put a

00:44:01.880 microphone in my face and I could get through 30 or 40 seconds before I started to cry and have a hard

00:44:06.200 time talking. And that was eight interviews. So you don't really have much time to process then.

00:44:13.420 And then we have a show the next day. So all of a sudden it's, okay, now what's your show program?

00:44:19.800 Block it out with lights. And it's just go, go, go. And trying to keep everything together. You're

00:44:25.860 kind of a porcelain doll that's shattered and glued yourself together to try to keep going for the

00:44:33.240 next two days of the Olympics, which is basically doing this exhibition, closing ceremonies and

00:44:40.600 leaving. And so you don't really have the time to process. You know, I was staying with my mom

00:44:45.180 in, we'd rent an apartment and you kind of just come home to silence at the end of it. It's too much

00:44:51.940 to process at the time. And I think the most, the biggest concern is to keep yourself together in

00:44:57.140 front of team USA officials, in front of the media, in front of even family. It's like, it's fine. I'm

00:45:05.660 all right. Like, it's okay. But certainly not thinking about the next competition because after

00:45:09.980 that world is kind of like a throwaway. I ended up going, but different athletes handle it differently.

00:45:16.440 But I think I tried to create a wide vacuum between skating and myself and a persona just to get away

00:45:26.440 from the pain of it. Again, I didn't watch the performance. I fully embraced all the fun

00:45:32.700 opportunities I had post games, which were quite of the Oscars and, you know, all these different

00:45:38.220 events and skating. Unlike other sports, you have a chance to tour. So, you know, you're,

00:45:42.960 you're busy doing shows and live TV events. So I kind of lost myself there and then put skating

00:45:50.700 aside. I went to acting school. I just. But did you formally retire in 2006? No. And I actually

00:45:57.320 ended up competing in March at Worlds. And then I ended up touring for a few years while taking time

00:46:03.740 away from competing and ultimately decided to come back and train in 2009, 10 season.

00:46:09.580 Yeah. So it's interesting. You sort of delayed that. I remember Apollo talking about how post

00:46:15.140 2010, I forget what he said. Some of the effect of like two weeks after the Olympics,

00:46:21.260 it all sort of hit him that that was it. On the one hand, that seems like a very short period of

00:46:26.080 time. Like, oh my God, like two weeks after, you know, the Olympics, it all sort of crushes down on

00:46:31.980 you like a ton of bricks. Like you're no longer a professional athlete. And on the other hand,

00:46:36.360 that seems like a really short period of time. It seems like in your case, it was different. It

00:46:40.640 seems like in your case, you were able to stretch that out more, partly because of the nature of your

00:46:44.700 sport, I think. And when you mentioned that you were taking acting classes, was that in the spirit of

00:46:52.780 making you a better skater? Or was that really in the, in the spirit of thinking about your next career?

00:46:57.140 I think it was about exploring other opportunities. I guest starred on CSI New York and on Las Vegas,

00:47:04.540 and I did a small indie film. I wanted to move to LA and take acting classes. And it was,

00:47:11.780 it was a wonderful diversion from this intense world of pain and disappointment, which I think

00:47:18.100 I didn't really want to process or look at. It was like, oh, here's all these fun, sparkly things for

00:47:23.080 you because right now you're cool and sexy because you just competed in the Olympics. And, and then

00:47:28.720 this is kind of something that all Olympians go through is you work really hard. You have tunnel

00:47:34.920 vision. You spend your day between the gym, your home and a training facility. And then all of a sudden

00:47:40.900 the whole world cares about you and everyone wants to meet the Olympian right after the Olympics

00:47:46.020 until the next games. And then it's like, oh, who are you?

00:47:49.160 So it's, it's a very fun, amazing opportunity that some Olympians are fortunate enough to have.

00:47:56.740 And I think for me, it was just a wonderful relief of the disappointment and pain of my games.

00:48:04.560 And then it was, I was just busy working. So it was, you know, I, I went on tour for a few months

00:48:09.360 and you're doing shows every, every other night.

00:48:11.840 And when you go and see a figure skating show, how much are you guys dialing back your

00:48:17.100 athletic sort of movements to guarantee that you're not falling? Like in other words, at the

00:48:22.960 Olympics, you're at the limit, obviously. And that's why you will see someone fall at the Olympics

00:48:28.200 because they're the best in the world doing the hardest thing in the world. But when you're doing

00:48:32.200 like Disney on ice or whatever other show, they're obviously still amazing skaters, but is that such

00:48:38.040 a step below? Are you skating at 25% of your capacity in those situations?

00:48:42.560 So first of all, it's not Disney on ice. That would be a, you'd be a character if you're doing

00:48:46.720 Disney on ice. It's generally stars on ice or champions on ice at the time.

00:48:50.400 But the Disney on ice people, I mean, they're obviously very good skaters too. I'm just using

00:48:53.460 that as an example, but yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:48:55.020 Just clarifying. But no, it's certainly a much lower level of difficulty in terms of your technical

00:49:01.820 elements. And a lot of times you, you may not have practice or time to prepare. You might be on a

00:49:07.880 small ice and you're skating with light bulbs around and no boards and you've got spotlights

00:49:12.060 on you and you might be taking a red eye. So people are definitely dialed down the level of

00:49:18.620 performance, but it's more about entertaining. So at this point, the fans are there. They've

00:49:23.340 watched you compete over the years. They're there to see you. And so people are skating to

00:49:28.160 songs with words and it's about entertaining and connecting with the audience. And you're still

00:49:32.040 doing difficult triples, but it's not like you're packing your program every 15 seconds with

00:49:36.780 a very difficult combination. You mentioned already something that I think is lost on a lot

00:49:42.200 of people, which is the relatively small window in which you can be at your best. And again,

00:49:47.740 people like Apollo and Michael create, I think, a false sense of what the true longevity of an

00:49:53.720 athlete looks like. It's very rare for someone to be the best in the world over three or four

00:49:59.300 Olympics. In many ways, I think it's a lot more like horse racing. And if you look at thoroughbreds

00:50:04.580 have one season in which they can be the best, and it's very early in their life, right? They're

00:50:08.900 usually three-year-olds when they're at their absolute best. A horse might live 20 years,

00:50:13.100 but it's going to race from ages two to four and it peaks at age three. I don't know if you know

00:50:18.800 these statistics, so I don't mean to put you on the spot, but I know how involved you are in

00:50:22.780 helping Olympians as they think about this transition. I mean, do we even have a sense of

00:50:27.540 how many people go to the Olympics and what percentage of people get to only go to one Olympics

00:50:31.880 and what percentage of people even get to win a medal? And it might just be even

00:50:35.880 in the United States where you probably would have better access to those stats.

00:50:39.820 I don't have the stats, but I know that most people only go to one Olympics and very, very few

00:50:44.980 people medal. I was surprised just thinking about it because I think the last Winter Olympics,

00:50:51.160 Sean White won the 100th gold medal, Olympic gold medal, I believe, for the US. And you're

00:50:56.620 thinking the Olympics went going back to the 20s and there were breaks in there, but you're

00:51:01.460 like, whoa, there's very few people have actually won medals and very few people get to go to an

00:51:07.680 Olympic twice. And certain sports, I think like swimming or speed skating tend to allow for someone

00:51:14.560 to go perhaps twice. But, you know, three times, four times is very, very rare. And in a sport like

00:51:20.480 gymnastics or figure skating, especially as a woman, your body changes. And then it's this 0.72

00:51:25.840 complicated window where you have to be 15, but some girls were peaking, like a lot of these 1.00

00:51:31.320 Russian girls were peaking at 12 and 13 and 14, but then they couldn't go and compete. And by the 0.98

00:51:35.700 time they were old enough to go, they were off their peak.

00:51:39.120 It's unbelievable to see that. Again, it's sort of like if you could really only peak for one to two

00:51:44.220 years, it's like imagine the Kentucky Derby is only every four years and yet three out of four

00:51:50.460 horses wouldn't even get to peak in their thing. And again, it does create this,

00:51:55.100 and it really breaks my heart. There's a, there's a, there's an amazing American female swimmer,

00:51:59.380 Missy Franklin, who was an absolute phenom in 2012. I mean, just sort of knocked the socks off

00:52:07.920 of people. You just couldn't believe how well she swam in 2012. Well, in 2016, she was obviously not the

00:52:12.960 same swimmer. I just found it so heartbreaking to watch the reaction to this as though somehow she had

00:52:19.720 failed as though somehow like she had let us as fans of us swimming down, which I actually found

00:52:26.820 infuriating truthfully, because I was able to sort of in a moment recognize that, wait, like it's okay

00:52:33.820 to be sad for her. Like I wish Missy was doing better here in Brazil because she strikes me, I don't

00:52:40.920 know her, but she strikes me as a beautiful human being and obviously a beautiful swimmer. 0.99

00:52:44.200 But to think that I could be disappointed, like she was somehow not living up to her potential. It's,

00:52:49.740 it's, it's ridiculous when you imagine here's a girl who's already got world records and gold

00:52:54.100 medal and Olympic titles to her name. It's almost like we, as the fans create this awful expectation

00:53:01.660 and this sort of toxic environment of expectation around, it's never enough. You're only as good as

00:53:10.100 your last Olympics, right? You're only, you know, as you pointed out by 2010, it doesn't really matter

00:53:15.260 anymore what you did in 2006. It's, can you make this 2010 team?

00:53:19.400 And the media is a big part of it too. It's, it's a story, you know, will they live up to

00:53:23.680 expectations and how will they do? And it's, you build people up and you tear them down. And I don't

00:53:30.240 know why people do this. People are busy living their own lives. And then I think they just project

00:53:36.800 everything, project failures and, and they don't know these people, but they're somewhat public

00:53:41.980 figures. And so it seems easy to kind of slash them at the ankles and just like, how could you

00:53:47.960 disappoint your country? And like, why weren't you prepared? And, and there's really no sensitivity

00:53:54.300 to this person being a human being. We see athletes as resources and you need to perform. You need to

00:54:02.360 meet expectations. And there's, there's not a lot of compassion for them as a human being,

00:54:07.560 just struggling on this global platform and, and just having their, their heart ripped out.

00:54:14.420 Well, you're, you're absolutely right. We, we just can't, we as fans, I'm saying now,

00:54:20.040 we sometimes have a hard time believing you guys aren't machines. For example, like you watch

00:54:26.120 Djokovic win Wimbledon and then a month later have to pull out of the U S open and people are booing

00:54:33.160 him. I mean, I just, I just can't believe it when I watch it. I really, it embarrasses me to be a

00:54:38.960 member of the public when you realize like a guy whose shoulder is obviously in tremendous pain

00:54:45.660 has to pull out of a tennis match and people are pissed about it. And look, maybe if I'm going to

00:54:50.020 take the other side of that, I would say, well, maybe they paid a lot of money to come and see the

00:54:53.640 Wimbledon champion at the U S open. And it's funny when I was growing up, I was, I guess I

00:54:58.300 still am sort of a football fan. And I had this poster on my wall of Jerry Rice. I don't know if

00:55:02.440 you know who that is, but a very famous wide receiver, arguably the greatest wide receiver

00:55:05.980 to ever play the position. It's just a very famous, I think it's like a Nike poster and he's

00:55:10.520 in the end zone and he's holding the football up. He's just scored a touchdown. And there's a player,

00:55:15.880 I think it was like a Cincinnati Bengal, you know, player. You don't even know who the player is

00:55:19.100 because he's, he's on the ground with his feet, trying to grab rice, his ankles. Obviously he

00:55:24.600 has failed to stop Jerry Rice from entering the end zone. And I remember one of my best friends in

00:55:30.740 high school, Jeff Bajoni made the most astute observation ever. We were like sitting in my room

00:55:36.420 one day, you know, we're like seniors in high school. And he looks at that and he goes,

00:55:39.340 isn't it amazing that that dude, and he points to the guy on the ground is a better athlete than

00:55:45.680 anyone we ever know. And I think people don't realize, like we're so used to looking at Jerry

00:55:50.980 Rice or Michael Phelps or whatever that one exception is that comes along and truly bends

00:55:55.760 the arc of a sport that you forget, even the people seven rungs beneath them are still doing

00:56:02.820 something that most of us can't fathom. But I, it's almost like we've get, we get numb to it.

00:56:07.160 I think like we just, we get so used to seeing you guys be perfect that you make a mistake.

00:56:12.680 And it's, maybe there's a part of us that likes seeing it because we know you're not

00:56:16.660 perfect. And maybe there's a, you know, a sense of, well, you failed, therefore I'm not

00:56:22.660 so mediocre in my existence. I don't know. Maybe that, maybe that's sort of a, an overly

00:56:26.400 skeptical view of it, but. Human nature is complex. I think a lot of it is invisible,

00:56:33.040 meaning the athlete, especially the Olympians journey, we see him pop out of just nowhere for

00:56:41.580 a month around the games. And then he kind of goes back into obscurity. Whereas, you know,

00:56:47.460 you're kind of seeing half the season, if you're, you know, watching the NBA or NFL, you're kind of

00:56:52.500 constantly getting updates on what's going on and there's multiple games. So you're, you're part of

00:56:57.100 the process a lot more. Whereas someone that is a skier or a swimmer, all of a sudden they pop out of

00:57:04.000 nowhere at the age of 14 or 15 and you see them for a month and then they disappear again for four

00:57:09.280 years unless you're following the world championships. But I think most people would

00:57:12.900 really just tune in for the Olympics. So we don't really know what their lives are like. And I think

00:57:18.500 that's what these fluff pieces going into the games try to do is track this person training in their

00:57:26.420 rundown facility. The fact that they're homeschooled, you see them at physical therapy, icing everything,

00:57:32.300 taking, you know, 30 vitamins a day, trying to optimize their performance. And then also having to

00:57:37.380 take painkillers because they're performing with a broken foot and humanizing the pain and the

00:57:44.260 struggle behind it and the sacrifice. And I think when all those things are taken into account,

00:57:49.240 all of a sudden this person becomes more human and someone that is overcome versus someone in

00:57:55.580 kind of a shiny USA outfit kind of going across your TV screen for 20 seconds. And then, and then

00:58:01.580 they're just a racehorse to you and they're a time. But I think once you know the human and you know

00:58:06.740 the story and what it takes and, and that the four years in between, there's really kind of this

00:58:11.160 nothingness for them. And there's, there's no glory for most Olympians and there's no money for most

00:58:17.380 Olympians and they're working second jobs and they're in debt to pay for their training and the

00:58:22.680 sacrifice that they go through. I think when you understand all those elements, it really,

00:58:26.620 really humanizes the athlete.

00:58:29.220 Is the United States, I can't tell, is it a good or a bad country to be an Olympian from? Because I've seen,

00:58:33.860 for example, like in other countries where if you're even in the top five, top, certainly the top

00:58:41.240 three in the world as a swimmer, you could make an amazing living because it's so great. You know,

00:58:46.120 there's so few athletes in that country that could do it. Whereas, you know, in the United States,

00:58:50.760 if you want a bronze medal in the 200 IM in one Olympic year, like you're not going to make that much

00:58:58.340 off that. But at the same time, the U S seems to have a lot of great resources to help Olympians,

00:59:03.960 but, but just on balance, do you get the sense that it's great to be an American Olympian relative

00:59:08.940 to other countries?

00:59:10.040 Well, it's certainly incredible to see the U S flag and the sense of camaraderie and, you know,

00:59:17.080 America still is this icon for, for so much of the world. And so there's this immense sense of pride

00:59:22.460 representing the U S but I think the difference is, is the U S Olympic and Paralympic committee

00:59:27.400 is solely responsible for funding the athletes. The government is not any part of it. And in a lot

00:59:34.880 of other countries, I believe like Russia and in China, the government is putting a lot of money

00:59:39.440 into the athletes and paying for their training. And so they just have the resources that they have

00:59:45.300 to work with are at another level. You know, in Russia, if you, you reach a certain level of success,

00:59:50.740 like you get an apartment and you get a car and you get a stipend where that, that doesn't happen

00:59:56.100 because the purpose of the Olympic committee is really to find young talent and support them

01:00:03.300 leading up to their Olympic journey, but they don't have the resources that these other countries

01:00:08.880 do. And for other countries, especially during the Soviet union, it was all about how do we beat

01:00:12.800 the U S and everything and no expenses spared and look at five-year-olds and do they have the right 0.59

01:00:18.800 bone structure? It's like, okay, take them away, take these 50 five-year-olds away, put them in camp

01:00:23.480 and maybe one of them will make it. And we don't care if we work them all to the bone because it's,

01:00:28.520 it's about winning and it's, it's an Olympic machine.

01:00:31.800 Your mom's from Russia, right? She came to the U S when she was what, a teenager?

01:00:36.080 16. And it was the Soviet union at the time, but she was from Odessa.

01:00:39.580 She was from Odessa. Okay. Did Russian fans have a negative view of you? Did they

01:00:45.080 want you to be competing as a Russian or were they just opposed to you? They seemed to booed

01:00:49.720 you disproportionately. Was it just because you were American or was there something more going on

01:00:53.220 there? I think it's because there was another Russian, Irina Sutskaya, that was a favorite as

01:00:58.760 well. And so there was really no association with me being. I see. It had nothing to do with you

01:01:05.640 not competing as a Russian though. It was in your bloodline. It was purely just the fact that you

01:01:10.560 were the competition to a Russian. Yes. And I think in other competitions where there was no

01:01:15.900 Russian favorite, then the Russians were supportive of me because I was closer to,

01:01:20.160 to who they were. But, but I competed in Moscow against Irina and I was thoroughly booed. So it was

01:01:27.320 really that I, it was kind of when I was ever up against one of their own that I certainly, you know,

01:01:32.080 they were not rooting for me. Let's go back a little bit. Cause I still, I don't understand how

01:01:37.480 a seven-year-old girl decides I'm going to subject myself to this much practice and this much deliberate

01:01:42.560 effort. I mean, you've talked about this before in other interviews I've heard where like many

01:01:46.660 athletes, your parents are told you probably have attention deficit disorder. And was it framed as

01:01:53.900 she should either probably take this pill or she needs to find something to do for three hours a day? 1.00

01:01:58.800 I mean, was it sort of like that or? I was a hyperactive kid. I was constantly climbing trees,

01:02:05.500 just on rooftops, wild. And I would race the boys. I would do cartwheels. I would just kind of,

01:02:12.640 I would wear this same neon stretch two-piece suit. Cause I, you know, I had no sense or care

01:02:19.700 about fashion. I just wanted to be running, jumping, climbing at all times. And I went through three

01:02:25.480 different elementary schools because I didn't know how to sit still in class or stand still during

01:02:30.660 roll call. I would be off being cartwheeled. Or if art was over, I wouldn't put my art project away

01:02:36.600 because I wasn't done. So I had a very difficult time being in a group setting and listening to

01:02:42.280 direction. One teacher thought I was deaf. Another teacher gave my mom a book on juvenile delinquents.

01:02:48.760 And it was just kind of clear that I couldn't conform to a system. And, you know, my mom finally

01:02:55.340 found a school that was like mixed grades, no desks, mainly art that seemed to jive with me.

01:03:01.480 And this was in California?

01:03:02.840 Mm-hmm. In Pasadena. Then I was put into gymnastics at the age of five because I just,

01:03:08.220 I was bouncing all the time. It's so much energy. So I went to gymnastics for four hours a day.

01:03:12.400 And we were literally doing a hundred V-ups, you know, 300 jumping jacks, a hundred push-ups. And

01:03:17.900 this was as a five-year-old. I looked like a little cut sumo wrestler.

01:03:21.360 Were there other five-year-olds there or were you with older kids?

01:03:23.600 No, I was with other five-year-olds. It was a very intense training center. And yes,

01:03:28.220 you know, I was diagnosed with ADHD and my mom didn't want to medicate her five-year-old.

01:03:34.280 And so she thought, okay, well, we'll just get rid of her energy in gymnastics.

01:03:38.000 Through that, a friend threw a skating birthday party and I found skating and this feeling of gliding

01:03:43.060 and freedom. And I could channel all this energy I had into something I loved and could focus on.

01:03:50.480 And so then for me, it was very easy. It didn't feel like a sacrifice because all I wanted to do

01:03:55.880 was be on the rink and to be skating and learning new jumps. So I never really saw it as a sacrifice

01:04:01.720 early on in my life. It was, it was something that gave me clarity and purpose. Whereas I didn't really

01:04:08.040 fit in at school. I was a lot smaller than everyone else. And I just had a very different,

01:04:14.720 I think I didn't know how to socialize. I was climbing trees or I was painting pictures.

01:04:18.460 But come sixth grade, when everyone's getting ready for dances and figuring out what they're

01:04:22.960 wearing and figuring out what boys they should spend time with at the mall, I just complete,

01:04:28.780 completely over my head. And skating gave me this channel to express myself, to work hard,

01:04:35.280 to become something. And it just clicked.

01:04:37.940 Even by the standards of a figure skater, you would still be considered kind of an outlier in terms of

01:04:44.140 your artistic ability. Again, the way, you know, your, your movement exceeds even that of your peers.

01:04:51.640 You've now, even just in the time we've spoken, discussed this constantly as this sort of creative

01:04:56.740 expression. Do all, I mean, I guess it's hard for me to ask you that question, but do you think that

01:05:01.940 that's common as the, the thread towards getting somebody into figure skating or do, are there different

01:05:08.240 paths that get people there? So in other words, you don't have to know much about physics to

01:05:12.600 understand the strength and power that is required to jump the way you guys jump. I mean, that's a,

01:05:18.000 it's a very explosive sport. So there's probably a very athletic component that's required to it in

01:05:24.240 terms of those raw athletic inputs. But there's also this huge artistic component where I could

01:05:30.300 imagine you take the most powerful female athlete on the planet, but if she doesn't have the ability 1.00

01:05:36.240 to create lines and flow and spin in a certain way and dance in a certain way,

01:05:41.240 or choreograph in a certain way, it wouldn't be the same. I think it's the same as true for men and

01:05:45.840 women. I'm just using women as an example because we're talking about you. Did you start to figure 1.00

01:05:50.360 out which of those was your leading edge?

01:05:53.760 It's interesting because on the spectrum of sports, I think figure skating is at the very end of sport.

01:06:00.840 And then the next is ballet and ballet is an art. And I think the physicality channeled my energy, but I think I've always been very expressive and creative. And I felt that the music was a way for me to channel my feelings. So I think I was

01:06:18.560 always much more of the artistic skater. And while I definitely had physical talent and capabilities, that was by no means my strength. Like some people were jumping machines. They were they were robots and they could do it.

01:06:32.200 The same jump over 20 times, just boom, boom, boom. And for me, I always struggle with that. It took me longer to learn my jumps. I would lose my jumps.

01:06:39.420 And for me, I excelled at the expression and the line and the flexibility, which I'll thank my mom for because she wouldn't let me watch TV unless I was sitting in the splits.

01:06:49.800 And so growing up, I was either in the splits or practicing holding spirals. But everyone, I think, is is very different in a sport like figure skating and even ballet because you have the range of the more athletic and then the more emotive artistic.

01:07:06.260 And you really need to be a mix of both. Although the way that the system is evolving is with a heavy emphasis on the technical abilities because that racks up points.

01:07:16.280 And so you don't need to have as much personality or artistry because the points are really not captured there. Certainly it's part of it. But but you can rack up so many points with technical capabilities that it outshines.

01:07:29.820 And that's become in some ways a criticism, hasn't it, of women's figure skating, which is, OK, I get it. We're going to add more and more points to these greater and greater degrees of staggeringly powerful jumps.

01:07:41.940 But the critic would say, well, shouldn't we be subtracting points for the lack of beauty in this, for the lack of grace, for the lack of spin, for the lack of line, for the lack of choreographing as well, so that we do try to preserve that balance?

01:07:55.360 I mean, I guess ultimately that's just so subjective, though, right? It's very difficult to enforce that the way you can say, look, you have to do a triple lutz.

01:08:01.760 And it's very clear what is and what is not that jump, right?

01:08:04.780 Figure skating is very complicated, as is gymnastics, because it's not a race with, you know, did you beat this other person? What was your time?

01:08:13.000 It's really an art that's also a sport. And so it's a philosophical argument.

01:08:19.380 Do you want to treat figure skating purely as a sport? And a sport is about technical ability and progressing and pushing the body to more rotations faster.

01:08:30.240 And treat it purely as a sport. Because then what happens is you peak at 14, you get injured quickly, you can't sustain and evolve and have the kind of skaters you had in the 90s and early 2000s, like Surya Bonnelli and Kurt Browning and Michelle Kwan, where there were personalities that developed and people matured and became more like well-rounded athletes and performers.

01:08:55.900 Because we're now choosing to treat it just as a sport. We're not valuing the artistry. But who's to say that we should? That's subjective. Obviously, I appreciate the artistry. My skill set wouldn't have been conducive to competing in today's environment. And I think a lot of what the audience loves is the personality and the artistry of figure skating. But is that what makes it a sport? And I think that's a very philosophical, subjective debate.

01:09:25.220 I don't feel qualified enough to weigh in. The fact that I always have a very strong opinion. In swimming, for example, the most dominant male swimmer before Phelps was a guy named Tom Dolan. And I mean, not a beautiful swimmer to watch swim. I mean, he looked like he was beating the crap out of the water the whole time.

01:09:43.620 And yet the fastest swimmer. I mean, back to back gold medals in the 400 IM in 96 and 2000. So amazing swimmer. But, you know, you've got to say, look, in swimming, it just matters how quickly you get to the wall. It shouldn't, you know, it's pretty clear in swimming or running to your point. It doesn't matter. If you look ugly doing it, who cares if you're there first.

01:10:03.500 But at what point in your figure skating career was it clear to you that you wanted to do this as your life's mission, at least for the foreseeable future? When do you make that decision, which is, OK, it's time to start whole homeschooling and living on the road and training six hours a day?

01:10:22.260 I was 12. I was going into seventh grade, my first day of school. And I just felt that it was such a waste. I was at a public high school in California. Everyone was focused on shopping and surfing. And it wasn't a very rigorous academic environment. And I just I would often get heckled. It's like, oh, what are you doing here? Do you lose your way? The elementary school is down the street because I was short.

01:10:49.200 Yeah, I was I was short. I was little. I looked a few years younger than I was like, I looked like I was in third or fourth grade. I was tiny when I was competing at the age of 15. I think I was four, nine and 70 pounds. So I was I was I was I was really little.

01:11:04.920 Wait a minute. Wait a minute. You were four foot nine and 70 pounds at 15.

01:11:10.060 I was tiny. You know, you had you I mean, if you don't mind me asking, I mean, had you even had your period yet?

01:11:14.320 No, not till much, much, much later.

01:11:16.220 Wow. Yeah. Which is not uncommon, obviously, for for female gymnasts, figure skaters, ballerinas. 0.98

01:11:21.560 I don't remember. I had the tests where you're kind of submerged, dunked underwater.

01:11:25.640 I think, you know, it was like five percent body fat, just just tiny.

01:11:29.600 It's kind of amazing to reflect on that for a moment. I mean, I think, again, maybe even for you, it's hard to appreciate.

01:11:34.480 Now, this is me getting to talk with some authority right on what the implications are of totally arresting your endocrine system for six, seven years.

01:11:44.780 Literally, a third of your life being fully stopped to prevent your body from developing.

01:11:51.220 I mean, that speaks to what a physiologic stress it is for a young boy or a young girl.

01:11:57.380 It's just the the I think there's a fundamental difference, right, which is for boys, the training effect can actually sort of help puberty.

01:12:06.480 But for women, it can be really suppressive, as it obviously was in your case, in the case of many others that that's and for me, it was pretty easy until I was 17.

01:12:15.200 And then when I was 17, everything changed with with diet and with training, meaning you got more dialed in at 17.

01:12:22.460 When I was 15, I could eat whatever I wanted.

01:12:25.560 I see.

01:12:25.840 And I was just tiny.

01:12:26.920 I had a kid's metabolism.

01:12:28.560 And I was also working out hours and hours a day.

01:12:31.160 But when I was 17, 16, 17, you know, things started to change.

01:12:35.940 You started to get a little more pudgy.

01:12:37.580 And all of a sudden, there's this focus.

01:12:39.420 And your coach and everyone's just like, oh, you know, I see you've, you know, they would pinch your stomach.

01:12:44.500 And it's like we that's not just skin there.

01:12:47.720 There's fat.

01:12:48.460 And then as you get to know your body better and every because it fluctuates, you get down to a pretty low weight.

01:12:55.520 But you can't really sustain that during the year.

01:12:58.720 And so you'd gain 10 pounds after the end of the season.

01:13:01.220 And then you would try to get back on the ice and do a jump again.

01:13:04.020 And it's just you really feel the difference in terms of your spring and being able to rotate.

01:13:08.980 The rotational inertia for sure.

01:13:10.960 How prevalent are eating disorders amongst figure skaters?

01:13:13.540 They must be quite prevalent.

01:13:15.800 I'm sure they are.

01:13:16.680 But it's something that everyone keeps pretty private.

01:13:19.140 And even the men have their own versions of them.

01:13:21.980 It's, yeah, I don't eat breakfast or lunch.

01:13:24.440 I just have coffee.

01:13:25.280 And then I have dinner.

01:13:26.680 But I don't have an eating disorder.

01:13:28.480 I think everyone has found their own method for what works for them.

01:13:32.500 And it's very difficult because it's not so much about the energy to train.

01:13:37.240 It can be very much about what your body looks like and how you can propel it into the air.

01:13:42.340 And every body type is very different and has its own kind of physics where you'll see a lot of the North American or European skaters being very, very, very muscular to vault themselves up into the air.

01:13:53.640 And some of the Japanese skaters, like the Japanese men, you don't really see a lot of muscles on them.

01:13:58.660 But they're just the most incredible, light, springy jumpers.

01:14:01.860 And so everyone has to find their own dynamic.

01:14:04.700 And I think that's why you see a lot of girls kind of get sidelined when they go through puberty is because their body really changes.

01:14:11.940 Their bones change.

01:14:13.020 And no matter how they try to control what they eat or how they train, that time has passed them by.

01:14:18.640 It is a little bit of a – you talked at the outset about one of the challenges is you think you're in control of everything, but you're not.

01:14:25.340 Well, this must be one of the greatest examples, right?

01:14:27.480 Because a 15-year-old girl who has yet to go through puberty has very little control over what her body is going to turn into.

01:14:35.060 I mean, you don't know if your hips are going to do this, your breasts are going to do that, and that can be all the difference in the world. 1.00

01:14:40.160 So are coaches at that age also sort of hedging?

01:14:44.820 I mean, how are they communicating to the parent?

01:14:46.660 Because I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of a parent whose child is 12 or 13 who's being told your child has the potential to be an Olympian.

01:14:56.500 But, oh, by the way, when she goes through puberty, all bets could be off.

01:14:59.740 Like, you know, her body could change in a way that's simply not conducive to the movements of the sport.

01:15:04.120 But is that ever explicitly discussed, or is that just always sort of we just keep our fingers crossed and we just go for it?

01:15:11.760 Every model is different.

01:15:13.160 If you're in Russia or in a different training environment, you know, you might – the coach will only take on a few students.

01:15:20.360 It's much more intense.

01:15:21.900 Whereas in the U.S., it's like every skater has to pay for lessons.

01:15:24.480 So a coach will teach someone that might never make the Olympics because they're getting paid and it fills this hour.

01:15:29.060 Later on, there's – you know, as someone proceeds through the ranks and they're senior and they're close to making a world team, the coach gets more involved and there's more at stake.

01:15:38.520 But ultimately, it's on the athlete.

01:15:43.020 Can you control your body?

01:15:44.860 And it's, again, this everything that we think we have to be able to control, everything.

01:15:48.100 And I think it is very dangerous because you get the validation from your coach and from the world like if you have a longer line and you look more balletic.

01:15:57.700 And at the same time, it's easier to jump and you're also controlling something in your life, which are kind of all these things that are tied into having an eating disorder.

01:16:07.640 But then it's like, is that what's necessary for this sport?

01:16:12.740 When you look back at your entire career in figure skating, so from age, call it 5 or 7 until, what, 20, 25 when you stopped?

01:16:23.660 When was it the absolute most fun?

01:16:26.700 It was the most fun when I first started and then probably when I was 14, 15 years old.

01:16:36.120 I was just beginning to get really good, to get national attention, go to my first international Grand Prixs, burst onto the national stage and get second at nationals and then be invited to do tours.

01:16:52.300 As this young kid, this whole world, this carpet unfolds before you and now you're touring with your idols, with Chrissy Yamaguchi and Brian Boitano and people you've watched on TV.

01:17:03.020 And you're just this little kid and all of a sudden, the Olympics are two years away and it's all at once and it was this inundation.

01:17:12.940 So I think that was probably the most exciting.

01:17:15.360 I was still super motivated.

01:17:16.960 It was all ahead of me.

01:17:18.020 And I was young enough that I think the pressure, the immensity, like the enormity of where the level of pressure would go had not yet sunk in.

01:17:28.580 That is a response that I've heard from a number of athletes, which is the best time in their life with respect to the sport was actually before they became the best.

01:17:37.760 Do you think that's common?

01:17:39.120 I mean, you probably have a much larger sampling of that than I do.

01:17:42.040 I think later on it just becomes about expectations.

01:17:45.260 I think it's a matter of appreciation.

01:17:47.820 So before you have it, it's just you idolize these athletes at the Olympics and it's a dream.

01:17:53.820 Just maybe one day I could get to go there.

01:17:56.040 And then all of a sudden when you're going there, you're like, if I don't win, I am the biggest failure and my life is ruined.

01:18:01.680 And so I think it's all about framing and lenses.

01:18:04.380 And when you're young, it's all ahead of you and you see things with rose-colored glasses and you're doing something you love because you love it.

01:18:12.140 And then later on it can change.

01:18:14.740 And I had a very difficult time between 2002 and 2006.

01:18:20.780 I moved across the country.

01:18:22.500 I had different coaches.

01:18:23.800 I was dealing with gaining weight and my body not cooperating with me and losing all my jumps and just being super, super devastated.

01:18:33.600 And how much weight did you gain between 2002 and 2006?

01:18:35.940 So in 2002 you're 17 and obviously in 2006 you're 21.

01:18:40.300 It would fluctuate a lot between off-season and on-season.

01:18:43.300 But I had very low estrogen and low bone density.

01:18:47.620 And so doctors wanted me to be on birth control to strengthen my bones.

01:18:51.760 And that just completely put my body out of whack and completely didn't work for training.

01:18:57.480 And so it's like all these things that your body is like this finely, finely tuned instrument.

01:19:02.720 And you do – you switch blades.

01:19:05.020 You try birth control.

01:19:06.200 And it just completely puts your body out of whack, let alone all the emotional repercussions.

01:19:12.380 And it was really tough.

01:19:13.680 But I knew the Olympics were two years away and I had to be there.

01:19:17.620 And I had to redeem myself.

01:19:19.520 And I had to win because this was everything my life was for.

01:19:23.000 So despite how difficult it was and how hard it was, failure and quitting was never an option.

01:19:30.140 There's just something inside that's propelling you.

01:19:33.380 And I don't know if it's – there's so many different factors going in.

01:19:37.300 But it's something that – it's not pure joy and like the love of what you're doing that's driving you.

01:19:42.860 It's the need to fulfill a quest.

01:19:46.620 At points, it can be a lot more painful and difficult than it is exciting and motivation is serving as your source.

01:19:54.720 In some athletes' case, it's usually obvious.

01:19:58.000 At least if you're playing armchair psychologist, it's obvious what void is trying to be filled.

01:20:02.680 You know, it's an athlete that's trying to, you know, win the approval of someone, you know, a parent that's not there or a person that rejected them.

01:20:11.360 Do you feel like or do you see or sense looking back any sort of motivation that could make you feel like you had – you know, everything you just said.

01:20:20.780 I'm not going to repeat it because I can't – I won't do it justice.

01:20:22.880 Everything you just said, was that in service of something, some void, you think?

01:20:30.480 Or is that just the inevitable fuel that one needs to turn to if they're going to compete at that level?

01:20:36.980 In other words, can you win an Olympic gold purely, purely from the place of bliss, pure joy and love for the moment that you're there being a part of, every bit of the training, win, lose, or draw, have the same bliss?

01:20:52.920 Is that even possible at that level?

01:20:55.180 I think it's certainly possible.

01:20:57.040 I think you see it with kids just coming up.

01:21:00.020 So they might be 15, go to their first games, and they're so excited to be there, and wow, they won.

01:21:05.880 I think it also happens towards the end of a career when people have had dealt with hardship and maybe it's their fourth Olympic Games and they realize that this is the last one and how incredible it is and that they're performing and they're competing with the appreciation of their legacy and this kind of final punctuation on their career.

01:21:26.900 But I think it's difficult, especially when it's your second games and you feel like there's so much pressure riding on this performance because it's no longer about your Olympic experience.

01:21:38.500 It's about will you deliver in these few minutes and that's what everyone's been talking about and waiting for.

01:21:44.900 So I think it is complicated, but I think it's possible, and it's not to say that even if you are using this kind of not negative motivation but just this certain drive that doesn't come from pure joy,

01:21:58.820 not to say that you don't have the most exhilarating moments when you find this piece of music and you choreograph and you program or you land a new jump combination for the first time.

01:22:09.180 You realize that the great things in life hit in your head against a wall over and over and over and over and over for years, and you just don't give up because giving up isn't an option.

01:22:18.220 And I think this sense of obstinacy is it makes you great as an athlete, but then when you apply it to life, it's kind of you have to – it's like the Zumba in the room.

01:22:27.480 It's like, no, that's a corner.

01:22:28.320 We actually need to move the Zumba and start banging against something else.

01:22:32.220 But that's what it takes to be a great athlete is not accepting failure.

01:22:37.060 You keep showing up again and again and again.

01:22:39.440 And I can tell you that two years out, one year out from the 2006 Olympics, I didn't even know if I was going to make it because I was struggling so much.

01:22:48.520 The one season before the Olympic season, I had to withdraw.

01:22:51.460 Meaning in 04-05.

01:22:52.420 Yeah.

01:22:53.000 I lost all my jumps that year.

01:22:54.380 I pulled out of every Grand Prix.

01:22:55.720 And I thought, I've stuck around this long and I'm not going to make it to 2006.

01:23:00.420 How is this happening?

01:23:02.320 But you don't give up.

01:23:03.480 You just keep showing up every day.

01:23:05.000 You keep showing up every day.

01:23:06.940 And then things get better.

01:23:08.080 And it kind of teaches you that if you don't give up, if you show up, that has a lot of weight to it.

01:23:16.460 One other question I just want to ask you about the actual Olympics because it just blows my mind.

01:23:19.800 How long does it take you to choreograph, say, the long program of 06, right?

01:23:25.480 So do you pick the music first?

01:23:27.540 Do you say, everything is going to be built around this song and then we're going to build it in?

01:23:30.980 Or do you largely sketch out what you want to do movement-wise and then pair music to it?

01:23:37.940 Especially for an Olympic season, you're listening and then you're taking music to the ice and you're seeing how you move to it.

01:23:44.600 Does it inspire you?

01:23:45.540 And then you might work for a few weeks with a choreographer, not only cutting the music, but trying different series of spiral sequences and jumping combinations and figuring out what really suits you.

01:23:57.840 And you're really choosing music to suit your style.

01:24:00.120 If you're more lyrical or if you're more of a power skater, you really want the music to serve you and your style of artistry or how you skate.

01:24:10.000 But was Romeo and Juliet, do you think, your best work in that sense?

01:24:13.940 It certainly was one of the pieces of music that I resonated with the most.

01:24:19.000 And I always felt that I just melted into the music.

01:24:23.020 And it's funny because I get nervous with public speaking.

01:24:26.900 And for some reason, it's when I'm in front of a microphone and I'm nervous and I speak, it's very different than getting out into the middle of the ice, being incredibly nervous and nauseous, but hearing music.

01:24:40.780 And then somehow you can melt into the music and moving your body.

01:24:44.700 And I think Romeo and Juliet was a piece of music that I felt really at one with.

01:24:50.840 It was a love story and had so much drama, and especially this, the movie version.

01:24:55.040 I think it was the Prokofiev.

01:24:57.340 That and Spanish music.

01:24:58.580 I intended to skate to Malaguena and Carmen and these kind of fiery character pieces, which, you know, also suited another side of my personality.

01:25:08.160 You've described the feeling, I'm sort of paraphrasing, but profound nausea and the feeling of thousands of pounds crushing your chest or something to that effect.

01:25:20.600 That's what it feels like when you go out there.

01:25:22.180 And yet it's sort of amazing as I, you know, I think that's partly why as maybe as we get older, we find something different in watching the Olympics.

01:25:32.060 You know, when you're young, you're watching it because it might just be all about the achievement.

01:25:37.540 But I think as we age a little bit and we experience our own setbacks and we start to sort of understand what our demons are all about, part of what I think is amazing about it is trying to imagine how they feel.

01:25:51.380 You know, trying to imagine, whether it's, you know, the start of the 100-meter free, it's like there's eight people lined up on a starting block.

01:25:59.460 One of them's going to win.

01:26:00.560 One of them's going to finish last, right?

01:26:02.320 One of them will finish last.

01:26:03.300 There's no denying it.

01:26:04.200 He or she will still be the eighth fastest runner in the world for that day.

01:26:08.480 But what is the anxiety like in that moment?

01:26:12.640 I don't know.

01:26:13.480 There are a few sports like figure skating where the margin for error is so small because one, you're out there for so long.

01:26:22.520 So the duration is long.

01:26:24.720 The technical complexity is very high.

01:26:28.320 And three, the aesthetic component matters, meaning how you present yourself matters.

01:26:34.440 Again, you can be scowling when you jump in the pool or get on the bike.

01:26:38.440 It doesn't really matter.

01:26:39.520 You can't be scowling when you're standing there on the ice.

01:26:42.520 It's always amazing to listen to the announcers as though they know what the person's thinking, try to project that.

01:26:48.220 But presumably that's been a skill as well, right?

01:26:51.840 I mean, is there anything in your current life that puts a fraction of that pressure on you in a moment?

01:26:57.400 Certainly not.

01:26:58.400 And I think it's something I was able to really describe because I stepped away for a few years and then came back to compete again at the age of 24, 25.

01:27:09.420 And I could finally articulate what it felt like.

01:27:12.320 And it was like battery acid running through your chest with a thousand pounds of weight crushing you.

01:27:17.220 You're like, how do I even move?

01:27:18.920 And again, this is what really taps back into denial is you can't really identify with your feelings.

01:27:25.940 You have to shut them down.

01:27:28.200 And I think that's why I found acting so appealing when I was done skating was because there's a spectrum of humanity and actors are on the far left and athletes are on the far right and normal humans are in the middle.

01:27:43.240 Where when, as an athlete, if you have fear, any feeling, you have to shut it down.

01:27:51.220 You have to be impervious.

01:27:52.420 You're always fine.

01:27:53.360 You're a robot.

01:27:54.040 You're projecting confidence.

01:27:56.420 And as an actor, you have to take in every emotion from the outside, every vulnerability, cultivate feeling because that's your paintbrush.

01:28:05.280 That's how you live.

01:28:06.320 And as a human in the middle, you have places you feel safe to be vulnerable and open, but you certainly aren't at work.

01:28:12.920 You don't cry when you see every homeless person.

01:28:15.560 And you learn in the middle.

01:28:16.900 But athletes are on the far, far end of the spectrum where you just learn to shut everything down because you're dealing with so much all the time and just this is pressure.

01:28:26.820 And I think it's hard to learn to be a normal functioning human being after you're an athlete.

01:28:31.880 I think it's almost in the same way you're a soldier.

01:28:36.140 And I hesitate in some ways to make the comparison because obviously we're not putting our lives on the line and this is sport.

01:28:44.120 But the element of the human is shut down for the task and it's all about the task.

01:28:51.580 And that's something that takes time to learn how to be a human again after.

01:28:55.280 Trevor Burrus It's so interesting the way you explain that, which I guess I now see.

01:28:59.700 It's after 2006 when you go and you take acting classes, as you say, that's a big part of I think what enabled you to maybe come back in 2010 with a different perspective perhaps.

01:29:08.880 I mean…

01:29:09.200 Jennifer Yeah, I think it was the break from it because I think a lot of it is habituation.

01:29:13.920 So if you start competing from the age of five years old, you're nervous, but you're tiny little competitions.

01:29:20.200 And kids are really nervous.

01:29:21.500 Even when they're seven years old, you see them running to the bathroom to throw up before they skate and they're pacing and they're crying and they've got butterflies.

01:29:29.340 And these are just seven-year-olds at tiny little local competitions.

01:29:33.120 And so you're kind of habituated at a young age and then your competitions get slowly bigger and then they're national and there's more people.

01:29:39.520 By the time you get to the Olympics, even though this is the biggest stage you've ever been on, it's been this steady ramp up to that.

01:29:46.840 And then I took three years away from it and then I came back.

01:29:51.060 And so I was just doing shows.

01:29:53.400 And so I think I wasn't constantly stressing my nervous system with these kind of nerves and feelings.

01:29:59.040 And so I think when I took a break and came back, I was just like, part of you is like, I'm never doing this again.

01:30:04.460 This is – how could I ever subject myself to this?

01:30:07.220 But then once you go out and you're performing, it's this most incredible high.

01:30:11.640 And so as an athlete, I think you get used to these high highs and these low lows of these lonely, difficult moments where you're injured and you're dealing with so much psychological stress to these moments where you're out doing what you ultimately love to do and a crowd is cheering for you and you feel like, you know, you're paused in this most unique moment in time doing what you love.

01:30:34.360 And after I retired, you know, life was just nice and that was wonderful for a year and then life just felt flat because everything had evened out.

01:30:44.420 The high highs were gone, the low lows were gone, and then you're kind of learning how to live without that paradigm.

01:30:51.740 I've read that 80% of Olympians or former Olympians suffer or have at least experienced in some transient form of depression.

01:30:59.740 Does that – I mean, does that sound believable to you, having been on the inside?

01:31:03.440 Certainly, and I'm sure that the number might even be higher because, again, we don't – as athletes, we're taught not to admit weakness.

01:31:10.580 And it's not only to the outside world, it's to yourself because if you admit weakness to yourself, then you're undermining what you're capable of.

01:31:19.160 And the biggest tragedy – there's, you know, there's multiple factors.

01:31:23.280 One, mental health issues can be a stigma, and so people generally don't talk about them, and they should.

01:31:29.440 And then on top of that, as an athlete, if you admit that you're struggling, it's going to undermine your own performance, and you don't want to admit that to yourself or let your competitors know.

01:31:39.740 And then once you retire, you lose your identity and you lose your purpose and something you've spent a decade or two decades, your whole team of support and everything you do and everything you wake up for, which is like this moment four years down the line.

01:31:56.360 You, like, imagine yourself on a podium, and you've charted out this whole path to get there.

01:32:01.980 And then all of a sudden, you don't have the goal anymore, you don't have the identity anymore, you're watching other people do what you did, but they're doing it better because they're the next generation.

01:32:12.960 And you don't have a skill set that everyone else your age does who was actively pursuing an academic education and went to college and interned and really setting themselves up for the next 40 years of your life.

01:32:26.520 It's all been, this rug has been pulled from underneath you, and so not only are you mourning your identity and have lost your sense of purpose, but now you see yourself as 10 years behind normal people, and you don't even know what you want to do.

01:32:41.920 But there's this interesting thing I've observed, which is there are a subset of people, and you and Apollo would be great examples of it, where you seem to have made the transition so easily.

01:32:54.140 Now, you've made it look easy, I'm not suggesting it's easy, of course, but you were basically able to take the Roomba mentality of, I can go harder, I can go faster, I can go longer, I can go deeper than anybody, just give me a new skill set.

01:33:09.920 And, you know, you emerge at one of the best colleges in the country, and you kick ass, and, you know, today you've got a great job in finance.

01:33:17.520 There are a handful of athletes who just make this transition.

01:33:21.360 And if you're saying it's hard, I mean, what's happening for most athletes?

01:33:26.180 I mean, I'm not asking that rhetorically, like, what does the graveyard look like for, especially Olympic athletes?

01:33:34.400 It's different if you've at least played five years in the NFL, and you've managed to stash away seven figures.

01:33:42.160 But most Olympians don't come close to scraping together that kind of money.

01:33:47.220 So what are they?

01:33:48.740 Do they go on to become coaches?

01:33:50.360 And, like, how many of them are able to resume where they would have been or get back on that same path if they had chosen something else?

01:34:00.120 Because they're obviously very capable, but they're going to need new, you know, they're going to need to be retrained.

01:34:06.300 There's so many variables.

01:34:07.720 I think the mindset of an individual athlete versus someone that was on a team sport.

01:34:13.760 Yeah, that's a good point.

01:34:14.640 And then is this something where they went to their first Olympics at 27 or 30, and they've kind of developed this identity and this group of friends?

01:34:23.600 Were they actually in – did they actually go to college and were they playing a collegiate sport?

01:34:27.680 Because I think you develop very differently than if you're a gymnast or a skater or a speed skater and you've been homeschooled since seven and this is your world and it's myopic.

01:34:35.640 And then your personality type, like how neurotic are you and what do you see as success and what's your appetite for the unknown?

01:34:45.160 I think some, you know, across all sports, some people continue to coach, they judge, they want to be in their sport and they want to be the big fish in the small pond.

01:34:56.520 And they continue to hold on to that identity as this greatest moment of their life and what define them.

01:35:03.780 And then I think there's others that prefer to be the tadpole in the ocean and you have to deal with this sense of insignificance and feeling lost and realizing the more you learn about the world, the bigger you realize it is and then the more confused you are, the more options.

01:35:20.180 And I think I definitely chose the tadpole in the ocean route and I moved to New York and I went to Columbia and I'm still learning who I am and what it is I want to do and redefining success because I think at the age, you know, when I was competing and when I was 21, it's like, oh, well, what's the next thing that seems really competitive and athletic and I can define winning?

01:35:44.260 And to me that seemed like finance, you know, I got a liberal arts education and you start to realize what's out there, you realize that success is what you define it to be and that actually happiness starts to be more important to you than what society, quote unquote, deems success.

01:36:03.620 Because success is fleeting and maybe success is a moment, but you're quickly replaced and what are you building your life around?

01:36:12.740 And so I think there's definitely a value shift instead of just like this plug and play.

01:36:18.380 At first, it's like I'm going to take everything and all this intensity I had in my sport and put it towards something else and be the best and just like show everyone.

01:36:27.020 And this is my new vehicle.

01:36:29.100 It's like just show me what to do and I'll get to the top.

01:36:31.860 And then you realize, like, is this mountain worth climbing?

01:36:35.200 Even this is a formula that I knew before, but applying it somewhere else, this isn't actually what I want.

01:36:41.160 And I think it takes a lot of time and reflection and kind of self-growth to realize like what's worth doing, like what's worth, like what actually is winning in life.

01:36:50.580 What do you think enabled you to figure this out?

01:36:52.400 Because honestly, talking with you, Sasha, it's blowing my mind that you are so wise beyond your years when you talk about that, right?

01:37:00.680 I mean, you have figured something out that most people never figure out in life and yet you have two thirds of your life still ahead of you in terms of years.

01:37:10.320 How do you think you made that transition?

01:37:12.940 I mean, obviously there's some deliberate choices.

01:37:14.420 So you made a decision in 2010, not just am I going to leave the sport, but I'm not going to wrap my identity around this sport either.

01:37:23.140 I'm going to go beat the tadpole.

01:37:24.840 I'm going to go enroll at Columbia where frankly, I'm going to suck because I'm competing with a bunch of whippersnappers that came out of high school and they're way better prepared than I am. 1.00

01:37:33.680 And I'm going to be doing an internship in something with a bunch of kids that are 10 years younger than me and probably a bunch smarter than me when it comes to these tangible sets of facts and skills that one would have learned.

01:37:44.680 And I totally appreciate what you're saying, that part of that was the challenge of this is my new Olympics.

01:37:51.160 My new Olympics is going to be graduating first of my class and doing X, Y, and Z.

01:37:56.360 But then what you described at the end there was another transition, which is, wait a minute, like that's not even the way I want to live my life anymore, which is it's not about being the best.

01:38:05.220 Tell me how that realization and the application of that came to you.

01:38:10.420 I think it's in finding things to be hollow.

01:38:15.200 It's going down a path that you think, oh, if I'm just the most successful in this, if I work my way up to the top, I'll find identity and fulfillment and I'll be good enough.

01:38:26.260 And then you realize as you do it, these things look sexy from the outside.

01:38:30.360 But once you're in them, it's really not what it appears to be.

01:38:34.480 It's like people do this so they can show you the country club and the car and the business card.

01:38:41.520 And maybe some people really love what they do and these are side effects.

01:38:44.640 But I think a lot of people do things for approval and for status in society.

01:38:50.480 And I think at a very young age, I got used to being rewarded by the public for achieving.

01:38:58.520 And so I felt that what I needed to do had to be publicly visible and needed to be appreciated and to be validated.

01:39:06.320 And then I think as you get older, you know, I've spent a lot of time, become very, very interested in different Buddhist texts and in meditation and just understanding this bigger picture of life.

01:39:21.320 Because I think we get so singularly absorbed in like what's in front of us in the moment and we think it's the most important thing.

01:39:28.900 And then the biggest struggle for me and something that I daily work on is what do I actually want to do versus what do I think other people will be impressed with?

01:39:41.600 And again, I think this is like the resume versus the eulogy.

01:39:45.100 Are you a fan of the book by David Brooks, The Road to Character?

01:39:48.240 Or The Second Mountain being the more recent one.

01:39:50.340 I actually haven't read The Road to Character, but I read The Second Mountain and found it very, very compelling and powerful.

01:39:55.900 And I think that's the phase of life that I'm certainly in and I have a lot of questions and I'm exploring like what makes a meaningful life and what actually brings me joy if I can peel away all the layers that my upbringing through sport and society have projected onto me.

01:40:15.680 Because sometimes you don't really know the difference and you end up doing things that people around you do because that's what they respect.

01:40:22.760 And ultimately we're social animals and we want to be respected by others to have a sense of self-worth.

01:40:29.720 If you can really strip all those things away, then you can start to have the dialogue with yourself of what you actually like.

01:40:37.400 And what if you really like something that the world doesn't validate?

01:40:41.940 Who's going to win?

01:40:42.960 Like are you going to do something for them or are you going to just think for you?

01:40:45.620 And this is still…

01:40:46.760 There's still tension there.

01:40:48.220 Yeah.

01:40:48.380 Of course.

01:40:49.000 Yeah.

01:40:49.880 Well, let's play a hypothetical game because what I'm not hearing you say, to be clear, is you regret the decade and a half you spent killing yourself to be the world's best figure skater.

01:41:00.620 I'm not hearing you say that.

01:41:01.920 But I want to just play a thought experiment, which is I'm going to put you in a time machine and I'm going to take you back and you're going to get to spend the next 10 years with 15-year-old Sasha.

01:41:16.900 So we're going to take you back to circa 1998.

01:41:19.420 You're two years outside of your first Olympics.

01:41:21.200 But now you, I'm going to change the way you look so that the 15-year-old version doesn't realize this is the adult version of her.

01:41:27.680 But you now get to become another coach slash mentor to the girl.

01:41:33.860 And you know everything you know.

01:41:35.620 So you know how the story ends if she stays the course.

01:41:39.320 How would you counsel her?

01:41:42.480 That's such a hard question because going backwards and tweaking something, you don't know what's going to happen going forward.

01:41:48.480 Admittedly, yes, we run the risk of the butterfly effect here big time.

01:41:53.520 Well, let me ask you then.

01:41:54.840 I'll start with some broad themes.

01:41:57.140 Well, the more I think about this question, the more interesting it gets through the lens of if you only have knowledge through 2010 versus seeing where you are today, it might be different.

01:42:10.360 Let me make it an easier question then, which is the question I didn't want to ask because it's such a common question, which is what advice would you give yourself?

01:42:16.760 Let's take a hybrid of that basically, which is how much would you let her worry about what she's doing, even if alleviating some of that worry subjected her to the risk of not being as successful?

01:42:33.740 It's really an interesting question because I would want to go back and say, enjoy this time, right?

01:42:42.520 This is enjoy being at the Olympics, enjoy being on the ice and moving and having your body honed and trained to this incredible degree, right?

01:42:55.600 It's such a rare, fleeting moment.

01:42:58.400 Later, you're going to be jogging and you're going to be winded.

01:43:01.020 It's going to be very different.

01:43:03.000 It really is incredible because ultimately it's like a piece of this incredible journey that it means to be human, right?

01:43:10.220 And it's a very extraordinary, exceptional piece that you can get to, you know, the top of a sport, that you can represent your country, that you can see the world.

01:43:18.920 It's such a gift.

01:43:20.820 But at the same time, if you tell this younger girl, there's so many things after, you're going to go to college, like the world is so much bigger than this.

01:43:31.260 Maybe you wouldn't stick it out.

01:43:33.320 Maybe you wouldn't stick out those really difficult times.

01:43:36.100 I remember a few years before my second Olympics, 4th of July, everyone was barbecuing.

01:43:42.920 I was training at a center in Connecticut.

01:43:45.400 I had the key to the rink opened up, was just training by myself.

01:43:48.560 And then I went with my off-ice coach to the outdoor track and was doing sprints and 100-degree heat and just broke down crying.

01:43:55.140 And I was like, I don't want to be here.

01:43:56.800 I want to be with my family.

01:43:57.780 I don't want to do this.

01:43:58.500 And this is like 2009?

01:44:00.480 This probably would have been in like 2004.

01:44:02.760 Oh, before the second Olympics.

01:44:03.860 Yeah, 2004.

01:44:04.720 Just complete breakdown.

01:44:05.820 And in that moment, if you're like, you know what?

01:44:07.980 College is going to be amazing.

01:44:09.680 You're going to find poetry and philosophy and it's going to blow your mind and Buddhism. 1.00

01:44:16.060 You'll be like, what am I doing?

01:44:18.080 How many days am I going to have Groundhog Day of doing the same thing over and over in this rink?

01:44:22.260 And to this day, I go to an ice rink and I smell that musty smell of rubber mats.

01:44:27.540 And it's visceral.

01:44:30.020 I'm sure there's like some PTSD associated with it.

01:44:32.340 Oh, certainly it's visceral.

01:44:33.640 And I think if you know that there's more, and I guess I'm a person that I've got so

01:44:39.160 many interests and there's so much I want to do and I have so much FOMO.

01:44:42.800 I want to be in every country and I want to get a PhD and, you know, Buddhist studies and

01:44:48.020 I want to do everything.

01:44:48.920 So I think if I knew more about the world in those hard times, I think it would have been

01:44:53.880 much harder to stick it out when that versus that being your only identity and your whole

01:44:57.980 world.

01:44:58.840 Well, there's certainly a reason why they have to put blinders on racehorses.

01:45:02.540 I don't know.

01:45:03.240 I guess that's sort of the thing that about it that feels.

01:45:07.180 I've had this discussion with a number of my friends who are, you know, in your situation,

01:45:10.760 right?

01:45:10.920 So people who were at one point the best in the world and now they're normal, quote unquote,

01:45:16.460 right?

01:45:16.520 Trying to be.

01:45:17.000 Anything but normal.

01:45:17.380 Trying to be.

01:45:17.940 Yeah, but you know what I mean.

01:45:19.320 There's a sadness.

01:45:20.340 There's a very famous athlete who was incredibly well celebrated and decorated 20 years ago.

01:45:26.840 He's really fallen on hard times now, substance abuse, a whole bunch of other things.

01:45:30.720 And, you know, sort of behind closed scenes, there have been a handful of people that have

01:45:34.860 tried to help him to really, you know, get him back from the, from the edge of drugs,

01:45:40.340 alcohol, all of the things that have sort of taken him to within about the inch of his

01:45:44.860 life repeatedly.

01:45:46.560 And it's hard to look at him because I still, I can't get the image out of my mind of him

01:45:52.940 when he was the best in the world at what he did.

01:45:56.040 And there was a whole country that viewed him as the most amazing thing they'd ever

01:46:02.320 produced.

01:46:03.500 And now this entire country would abandon him in a heartbeat out of pure disregard and

01:46:09.080 shame for who he is and what he's become.

01:46:12.380 And what seems unfair to me is that the same forces that lifted him up, he was a national

01:46:19.080 champion at 17, you know, the greatest that that country had ever produced.

01:46:22.920 The same forces that put the blinders on him to enable him to spend a decade of his life

01:46:30.980 being the identity of a nation in a sport are the exact same forces that have abandoned

01:46:37.760 him and given him nothing to cope with the complete emptiness and bitterness of his existence

01:46:44.700 and the shame that has followed it.

01:46:47.440 If I had the ability to tell the whole story with all the details, it would be a more powerful

01:46:51.820 story, but I think you get what I'm talking about because even though this is an extreme

01:46:55.080 example, it's not actually that extreme in terms of the emotions.

01:46:59.620 It might be extreme in terms of the net effects, you know, the near death and the drug overdoses

01:47:04.760 and stuff.

01:47:05.380 But I think this is sort of the guilty, this is sort of the guilty part that we have as the

01:47:10.980 spectators, right?

01:47:11.920 It is we don't realize that the same thing that we throw on the athlete to sort of praise

01:47:18.240 them is the very same gasoline that is to a bad fire as it is to a good campfire kind

01:47:25.500 of thing, if that makes sense.

01:47:27.720 Athletes generally start young.

01:47:30.160 And so there's a conditioning that sets an early validation through performance and through

01:47:35.460 through winning.

01:47:37.240 So it's Pavlovian and you're trained that that's how that's how you're defined and that's

01:47:43.040 how you're respected and adored.

01:47:45.680 And so you very much try to prove yourself to the world to get this this validation back.

01:47:52.060 But I think something that's important to remember is like you can be a healthy, functioning

01:47:56.780 human being or you can be the best in the world at something.

01:48:00.940 But you can't be both.

01:48:02.540 Do you believe that to be true?

01:48:03.340 I do, because I'm talking about sports at this point in time, but you have to sacrifice

01:48:08.960 all these other things.

01:48:10.340 You have to sacrifice your emotional well-being, time with friends, like socializing in school,

01:48:16.120 these other things that would make you well-rounded.

01:48:19.460 And knowing, you know, someone telling you, it's like, oh, it's OK if you fell or you want

01:48:23.220 to take a week off.

01:48:24.080 You're not defined by this.

01:48:25.880 You are a full human being.

01:48:27.920 And that's not what we value you for.

01:48:29.700 But that's not true.

01:48:30.660 And I think what happens is in sport, you become valued for what you do.

01:48:35.340 And as soon as you stop doing it or stop doing it as well as you did, all your value is gone.

01:48:40.660 And so it's like you spend, you know, it's like all the blood, sweat and tears creating

01:48:45.660 this social, cultural value by winning.

01:48:48.840 And as soon as you stop winning, the value just like, you know, it just disintegrates so

01:48:53.480 quickly.

01:48:53.840 Being versus doing is a very Eastern versus Western sort of mantra.

01:49:00.640 Yet when it comes to sports, there seems to be no Eastern.

01:49:04.280 It's all Western, isn't it?

01:49:05.880 In other words, there's no Buddhist athletes in the sense of it's just being like even if 1.00

01:49:10.720 you're competing in the Olympics from Eastern parts of the world, in the end, athleticism

01:49:16.660 always comes down to what you're doing.

01:49:18.700 Nike slogan, just do it.

01:49:21.360 We don't care how you feel.

01:49:22.700 It's about what you do.

01:49:24.660 It's funny.

01:49:25.100 I was recently reading an older version of the Art of War and 50 pages was the introduction.

01:49:33.220 It went back to the genesis of Eastern and Western thought and philosophy, back to Confucius

01:49:38.240 and back to Aristotle and Plato.

01:49:40.480 And in the West, we always think that we do something, that there's a mover and a moved,

01:49:46.480 a cause and an effect, that there's God and he created everything else.

01:49:51.040 And you go into Eastern culture and it's symbiotic.

01:49:54.740 Everything is a relationship.

01:49:56.160 God is everything.

01:49:58.060 And it's about relationships.

01:50:00.160 And the belief isn't that you cause something, but that you are part of something.

01:50:04.560 And it's all interrelated.

01:50:06.020 It doesn't apply to sports, but I think it really goes into the philosophies and the way

01:50:10.960 that people in Eastern versus Western cultures have historically lived.

01:50:15.580 And that really stuck with me because it's a lot of responsibility to feel that you cause

01:50:21.500 everything, that it's all up to you.

01:50:23.960 To a certain extent, it's true in certain ways, but there's so much that we don't control

01:50:29.560 and that we still don't understand and that how things are all interrelated.

01:50:35.040 And I think that's, that's important to remember.

01:50:37.260 And I think it's helpful as an athlete to remove yourself from this cause and effect

01:50:43.780 way of living to understand that you're, you're also a part of something.

01:50:48.000 One of the exercises that I find really helpful when I really get in my head is, and it sounds

01:50:53.760 morbid, but I just start imagining the world in my absence.

01:50:57.900 It's a game you play if you go to enough funerals, but you realize the earth wouldn't slow down

01:51:06.060 by one millisecond on its axis if I cease to be here, which is not to say that I can't

01:51:11.940 make a difference or that I don't matter.

01:51:14.040 I do matter.

01:51:15.060 I matter to at least a small group of people, if nothing else, my family.

01:51:18.240 But it's a way for me to get out of what you're describing, which is like taking on more sense

01:51:25.000 of importance.

01:51:26.900 It is really interesting.

01:51:28.180 The number of people for whom their removal from this planet matters is really low.

01:51:34.160 Now, of course, the flip side of that is how do you create meaning and purpose, which

01:51:39.360 as you've talked about, I mean, did you know Steve Holcomb?

01:51:41.880 I did not.

01:51:43.760 You know, I heard many stories about him, and he's featured quite a bit in this documentary,

01:51:49.620 The Weight of Gold.

01:51:50.600 Tell us a little bit about that.

01:51:51.680 How did that come about?

01:51:52.940 So a friend of mine, Jeremy Bloom, had found the director.

01:51:58.520 His name is Brett, and he was actually wanting to do a comeback story because Stephen was,

01:52:04.460 I think, coming back for a second or third games, had won multiple Olympic medals.

01:52:10.060 He was living in a training center in Lake Placid, and he thought, oh, what a great comeback

01:52:16.480 story.

01:52:17.280 I'll kind of film him going into the games and had interviewed him 12 days before he actually

01:52:24.020 died, before he committed suicide.

01:52:26.700 And then all of a sudden that changed the whole direction of the film and then brought in all

01:52:32.720 these other athletes, some other athletes who had committed suicide and other athletes that

01:52:37.900 had suicidal thoughts or really struggled with depression, and really put a voice to what

01:52:43.480 it's like to lose that sense of identity.

01:52:45.500 And for Stephen in particular, he was living in the training center, felt very isolated,

01:52:51.040 was starting to lose his vision, was driving the bobsled car, and felt all this enormity of

01:52:57.120 it, the pressure, and not really having an outlet for how to talk about it.

01:53:00.700 And would say that after this Olympics, even if I win, I'm going to have to go live in my

01:53:05.880 mom's basement because I don't have any money, and you don't make any money doing what I do

01:53:12.680 in this sport.

01:53:13.560 And I think it was just kind of the isolation and the pressure starting to lose his vision

01:53:18.900 and just the enormity of it.

01:53:21.620 He really suffered with mental health issues.

01:53:24.240 And there's a whole spectrum.

01:53:27.860 You know, there's people like him and like Speedy Peterson, who ended up committing suicide

01:53:32.340 as well, who might have had intrinsic mental health issues.

01:53:36.160 But then there's all these things that are aggravated by the fact that you lose an identity

01:53:41.160 when you're done competing.

01:53:42.800 And even if you're still competing, just the enormity of the pressure and you're handling

01:53:46.960 it alone.

01:53:48.600 And I think it's so important that athletes, Michael Phelps is a part of this.

01:53:52.680 So as Sean White and Apollo Ono are coming together and really talking about what the

01:53:58.500 process of training is like and what the loss feels like on the other side of an Olympic

01:54:03.540 Games and how they try to process it.

01:54:05.700 And from the outside, it may look like they have everything and that they're this epitome

01:54:09.700 of success.

01:54:10.620 But the sense of hollowness they have on the inside, this loss of identity and where it

01:54:16.440 takes them, because you have these really incredible type A personalities that will do anything

01:54:21.460 and sacrifice anything to achieve.

01:54:24.020 And then all of a sudden, their whole platform for achieving it has been erased.

01:54:30.000 And I think it really leaves you like a fish out of water.

01:54:32.880 We want to say, well, all these people that have depressive tendencies or that have committed

01:54:37.520 suicide have mental health issues. 0.58

01:54:39.040 But we make it sound like that's a binary distinction or something like that.

01:54:42.900 Like they have cancer or they don't have cancer or something like that.

01:54:45.320 I mean, in the end, I think we're all quite susceptible to quote unquote, whatever mental health

01:54:49.140 means, you know, I'm writing a book on longevity and probably the reason the book is taking

01:54:54.160 so long to be completed is because I just can't finish this chapter on emotional health.

01:54:59.520 It's the final chapter.

01:55:00.580 It's the 17th chapter in a book.

01:55:02.840 But I feel strongly about writing it because through my own sort of journey, I've realized

01:55:08.180 that none of this other stuff, like it doesn't really matter how long you live if you're miserable.

01:55:12.300 Longevity means nothing if it's married to misery.

01:55:14.840 But it's very hard to do.

01:55:16.560 And people keep asking me, oh, how's the chapter on mental health coming?

01:55:19.240 And I keep saying, well, I'm not calling it mental health because it strikes me as just

01:55:22.800 a bit of a loaded term.

01:55:23.920 It's really emotional health and it doesn't come with a diagnosis and it doesn't come with

01:55:27.980 an ICD-10 code and it doesn't have a chapter in the diagnostic and statistical manual, the

01:55:34.700 DSM-5 and all these other things.

01:55:36.800 I don't know if it means that Steve had quote unquote mental illness.

01:55:39.820 I mean, the bottom line is it's just a tragedy in a sense.

01:55:42.980 And it's just an extreme example, but it doesn't in any way, it comes back to this point, which

01:55:47.180 is maybe it's true.

01:55:48.360 80% of athletes may have this total loss of identity that can be coupled with some form

01:55:53.800 of depression that follows this.

01:55:55.500 And I guess the bigger point, because I imagine there are people listening to this who on some

01:55:58.900 level might be saying, like, I can't even relate to what she's talking about.

01:56:02.100 Like I'm saying this as the listener and it's true as myself.

01:56:05.200 Like I'm not even close to being the best at anything.

01:56:07.480 Like I'd give my left arm to be the best at something for one day.

01:56:12.320 What would you say to that person?

01:56:14.820 It's fleeting.

01:56:16.260 I think it's an incredible thrill, but I think ultimately it's complicated.

01:56:24.120 We're driven by so many things, but it's the life that you build.

01:56:28.980 It's the relationships.

01:56:30.940 And I think where mental health can be exasperated is when there's a lack of relationships.

01:56:39.120 Stephen was living in a dorm and a training center.

01:56:43.340 Maybe some people love that and have a sense of camaraderie, but maybe some people feel isolated

01:56:47.800 from family and friends.

01:56:49.780 And so I think we don't realize how social we are and how much we need each other and

01:56:54.000 we need friendships and family in our lives.

01:56:57.320 We become such an individual society that it's all about me and how good am I and what

01:57:03.580 am I doing versus the community.

01:57:05.580 And I think that's why there's been such a spike in rates of depression is this feeling

01:57:09.840 of disconnection.

01:57:11.300 And I think it's important to realize that the things that we see people winning an Oscar

01:57:18.800 or winning an Olympic gold medal or achieving some great feat, it's incredible and it's a life's

01:57:24.540 work and it should be applauded.

01:57:27.540 But that shouldn't take away anything from the value of a connected, loving life, doing

01:57:35.700 something that is fulfilling, no matter what that is.

01:57:38.540 Because ultimately, that's something day in and day out that you have to hold on to because

01:57:43.360 all these other things are moments.

01:57:45.280 They're moments that pass by where you're quickly replaced by the next person that wins the

01:57:49.580 Oscar, next person that wins the Olympic gold medal.

01:57:52.380 And you're holding on to a memory, but that feeling is, it's something you've done that

01:57:57.680 you'll always have, but you still have to step on to that next chapter and try to build

01:58:01.780 those relationships and find satisfaction and fulfillment and build a life again.

01:58:06.220 So it's like, be careful what you're trading for what.

01:58:10.380 How would you help somebody make that transition?

01:58:15.200 I mean, obviously the first part of it on some level must be accepting what you've said.

01:58:19.780 I mean, I accept it fully because I've seen it as well, right?

01:58:23.400 I've, I've spent time with the people who have been the best in the world.

01:58:27.140 And without exception, everything you say is entirely correct based on that experience.

01:58:32.580 There is no sum of money.

01:58:34.260 There is no number of trophies.

01:58:36.380 There is no number of Oscar statues that can accommodate for or compensate for bad relationships

01:58:45.200 or a bad sense of self, but the how question is hard, right?

01:58:50.020 It's what do you do when you wake up in the morning to begin resetting your identity around

01:58:55.600 these things that are less fleeting?

01:58:58.680 It takes a lot of work and the work isn't easy because you are letting go of a whole system

01:59:08.240 of values that have defined you to an extreme in your sport and to some extent define society

01:59:15.840 as a whole, what we value, who we think, you know, it's the young, it's the thin, it's

01:59:21.660 the beautiful who we put on billboards and applaud and read about in, in magazines.

01:59:27.280 And so you have to be willing to let go of what society is projecting as this, they're

01:59:35.500 selling thin, beautiful, you know, what are we selling as a society?

01:59:39.880 And is that actually making anyone happy?

01:59:42.360 You know, we think, oh, when we lose 10 pounds, we'll be happier.

01:59:44.800 Like, oh, when I'm in this relationship, I'll be happy.

01:59:46.980 And then you start to realize that these are kind of mirages or false illusions because it's

01:59:52.440 profitable for companies to sell you something.

01:59:54.940 And it's easier than looking inside yourself and beginning to change the way that you relate

02:00:00.920 to yourself and relate to the world.

02:00:02.520 And I think that's just, there's many, many books to read, but it's a slow unfolding.

02:00:07.980 It takes time and you have to kind of be curious and want to put in the work, but it's very

02:00:13.580 difficult to let go of the only thing you've ever known of the way that you're supposed

02:00:16.480 to live and what everyone else applauds.

02:00:18.460 It's much easier to just play the game the way everyone else is playing the game and then

02:00:22.560 hold up the trophy and then everyone applauds you.

02:00:24.820 But then at the end of it, it's great for the day and then it just kind of wears off

02:00:29.500 and then it's just like this trophy.

02:00:31.840 But what are you now?

02:00:33.140 It's funny.

02:00:33.960 In some ways, athletes have it the worst.

02:00:36.160 And maybe that's why athletes become some of the most powerful examples we have to talk

02:00:41.020 about these things.

02:00:42.560 Because I'm sure you've heard David Foster Wallace's This Is Water.

02:00:46.220 It's so good.

02:00:46.660 Anybody who's listening to this podcast will hear me go on and on about it constantly.

02:00:50.080 And I can't recommend it highly enough.

02:00:52.160 Anyone who's hearing this at this point in time and don't know what I'm talking about,

02:00:54.880 hit pause on your podcast player right now and then go to YouTube and then put in David

02:01:00.560 Foster Wallace's This Is Water.

02:01:02.860 And about a 24-minute talk is going to come up and I want you to sit down, close your eyes

02:01:07.840 and listen to it.

02:01:08.920 And then I want you to do that every day for the next week and then every week for the

02:01:13.940 next three months and then every month thereafter.

02:01:16.400 That's the doctor's prescription right now.

02:01:19.000 But he talks about, not athletes specifically, but he talks about this idea of self, of worship.

02:01:24.600 We worship things.

02:01:25.600 We worship our intellect, our bodies, our wealth, whatever.

02:01:29.460 And to your point, they're all hollow.

02:01:31.120 I think it's just that athletes figure this out quicker because the window in which you

02:01:34.860 can be great is so much narrower than, say, the window in which you could be rich or the

02:01:39.580 window in which you can be the smartest or the window in which you can be the fill in

02:01:43.760 the blank.

02:01:44.120 It's condensed to look.

02:01:45.640 It's so condensed.

02:01:46.380 It's just a super amplified play on the same theme.

02:01:52.080 In some way, I was actually just in Ireland and it would rain and it would be sunny for

02:01:58.060 a little bit and it would rain and it would be sunny for a little bit.

02:02:00.040 And every time it would rain, I would take it so personally.

02:02:03.180 I'm like, no, like the day is going to be ruined.

02:02:05.240 And how did I plan a trip at this time?

02:02:07.640 And it's a short summer and I should have figured this out.

02:02:11.920 But then it would be sunny five minutes later and it just showed me how much we identify.

02:02:15.940 It's all about grasping an aversion.

02:02:18.460 We want to be successful.

02:02:19.740 We don't want to be forgotten.

02:02:20.900 And usually things are on a longer timeline so we can't really see it because we're in

02:02:25.040 it.

02:02:25.240 But the weather was changing so fast in Ireland that I could kind of just see the folly of

02:02:31.400 it and the undulation of human emotions that aren't completely rational.

02:02:35.960 It's only when it was that close together and tying over to being an athlete.

02:02:40.680 It's at such a heightened extreme, such a short period of time where you're like this

02:02:44.800 hero.

02:02:45.280 You're on a Wheaties box.

02:02:46.420 You're everything.

02:02:47.540 And then you're forgotten.

02:02:49.220 And, you know, it's the next Olympian that they put on the Wheaties box and is going

02:02:53.320 on a speaking tour.

02:02:54.520 And it's like, okay, you're just not that relevant anymore.

02:02:56.540 I mean, I guess taking what I said a moment ago, Olympic athletes are literally the most

02:03:01.120 extreme version of this because even, you know, the average player in the NFL might have

02:03:05.280 a tenure of three or four years, which is relatively short compared to baseball or basketball.

02:03:09.780 But as you said, an Olympian on average is one Olympics, which means two weeks.

02:03:14.780 Can you imagine being the best in the world at something where your entire pinnacle is

02:03:22.100 two weeks?

02:03:23.640 That is a real manifestation.

02:03:25.580 And it's hard for me to imagine that that's just a coincidence with this idea that 80% of

02:03:29.480 Olympians post their career could experience depression.

02:03:32.420 It's hard for me to believe that's just a coincidence.

02:03:34.380 The way that we identify, the way we see ourselves is completely responsible for our sense of well-being.

02:03:44.080 And if you set impossible standards or, you know, that if you're second best in the world,

02:03:50.540 that's the biggest failure and disappointment, you're making the margin for feeling successful

02:03:56.320 so narrow and that even if you meet it, it's only a temporary high.

02:04:00.180 It's irrelevant.

02:04:00.720 You're going to pass through it before you experience it.

02:04:02.820 And it's a temporary high too.

02:04:04.480 You know, it's like a chocolate cake.

02:04:06.600 You eat the chocolate cake, you feel great.

02:04:08.080 And then the chocolate cake is gone and you're like, I shouldn't be in the chocolate cake.

02:04:11.360 Not exactly like that.

02:04:12.360 But it passes by.

02:04:14.220 And I think that we have to think about the way we set up and define success.

02:04:18.660 And is success the same thing as happiness?

02:04:20.920 Because I think in sports, being successful means perhaps sacrificing and being unhappy and

02:04:27.320 enduring for a very, very long time to be successful and to be gratified for moments or days.

02:04:35.100 But it's not the same thing as cultivating a sense of well-being and being content and loving your

02:04:40.520 relationships and having meaningful work and what you do.

02:04:44.280 So that has been very much undervalued in our society.

02:04:48.220 And I think we're seeing a little bit of a lash back in the sense that a lot of people are

02:04:53.540 interested in meditation and in yoga and in the sense of community.

02:04:58.080 And there's a little bit of lash back on this individual achiever as being the kind of

02:05:03.320 wherewithal for success and joy in the answer.

02:05:06.200 Because people get there.

02:05:07.520 They're like, hello, this actually isn't it.

02:05:09.180 Like, you know, turn around.

02:05:09.900 Although it doesn't show at all, you're expecting a little guy soon, huh?

02:05:16.440 I am.

02:05:17.300 It's a testament to how tiny you are, that even when you're pregnant, you still look super 0.99

02:05:21.420 tiny.

02:05:22.180 It's so exciting.

02:05:23.600 And the idea of being a mother and moving into this next chapter of my life is, I guess

02:05:33.320 there's not words.

02:05:34.160 You know, I try to think about what it means.

02:05:35.800 My whole life was so focused on myself and what I did that I think having the chance to

02:05:42.340 live for someone else and to create a life for someone else is just, again, it's part

02:05:47.660 of the arc of being human.

02:05:49.840 And I'm so excited for all that it brings.

02:05:52.060 And it's been a complete diversion from planning to see every country and to so many books that

02:05:58.560 I wanted to read, which have now all been replaced with books on expecting and babies.

02:06:02.980 And I'm just like, oh, this is putting me so behind in my reading.

02:06:05.980 But it's such a joy and reminder that life is so much bigger than just you and the gift

02:06:13.540 and wonder of creating life.

02:06:15.200 You know, all these things that we consciously work so hard to do and create.

02:06:19.480 And yet the magnitude of what our bodies can unconsciously do and create and give life

02:06:26.380 to is just so incredible.

02:06:28.820 If you stop to think about it, you know, it's just, it's a huge joy.

02:06:32.660 And as I was telling you earlier, I would like my child to not play sports at a very high

02:06:38.860 level, but I want to fulfill, you know, in a healthy way, all the fantasies that I never

02:06:43.780 had in my childhood and, you know, the debate team and playing guitar and spending time in

02:06:49.780 the, you know, wilderness classes.

02:06:51.300 So, well, I'm sure that there'll be a lot of detours and opinions of the child's own.

02:06:58.060 Is your Olympic medal somewhere in your apartment?

02:07:00.700 Is it, is it featured?

02:07:01.700 Is it one of those things that sits in a sock drawer or is it something that sits out there?

02:07:05.640 It's so funny.

02:07:06.280 My mom actually has it and it's, it's on top of her, it's kind of like mounted on top

02:07:11.300 of her dresser.

02:07:12.400 It's as much hers as yours, isn't it?

02:07:14.740 Yeah.

02:07:15.100 And I think when I moved to New York, I kind of left some of that stuff behind and it was

02:07:18.560 very important for me to split and, and create a new identity and not hold on to that.

02:07:24.860 So I really, I really let it go and just focused on, you know, I adopted my legal name, Alexandra

02:07:31.640 and I was Alex at school and I just really pushed forward.

02:07:35.920 But when I wanted to take, I had two Olympic rings, I wanted to take them with me and wear

02:07:40.680 them.

02:07:41.420 My mom said, I should get to keep one of them.

02:07:44.720 She's like, I, you know, I put in a lot of time and work and, and to be fair, I

02:07:48.540 can't even imagine now, you know, as I'm expecting just the sacrifice and dedication

02:07:52.080 for, you know, over 15 years of her life was about me with taking me to different ice

02:07:58.640 rings and physical therapists.

02:08:00.340 And, and I was like, you know what?

02:08:01.760 I'll leave her both rings.

02:08:02.760 You know, she, she deserves that.

02:08:04.960 But it's, again, you just feel like the medal is a medal and I'm not, again, it's what it

02:08:12.760 represents and the journey of my life and how figure skating and sport define me is incredible.

02:08:18.260 And I can't imagine who I would be today without that.

02:08:21.780 But again, it's an object.

02:08:24.020 So it's not something I feel compelled to have or put on a wall or have near me, but it is

02:08:30.460 representative of this moment of my life.

02:08:34.980 You were really fortunate to have motherhood demonstrated for you like amazingly, right?

02:08:40.560 When you think about what you learned from your mom and how you're going to write your

02:08:47.920 own playbook, that's going to look different, right?

02:08:49.940 I mean, presumably your kid's not going to be figure skating 10 hours a day.

02:08:53.220 So it's not going to be, you're the way you transmit love.

02:08:55.020 I've spent enough time in an ice rink.

02:08:56.520 Yeah.

02:08:56.700 It's like it's not allowed.

02:08:57.660 But what are the one, two or three things that you will take from the lessons your mom

02:09:04.340 lived, the practice that you saw in her as a mother to your son and potentially other

02:09:09.440 children down the line?

02:09:10.720 I think a sense of selflessness and commitment to the family and just what it means to be

02:09:19.300 a mother and what a privilege it is. 1.00

02:09:23.460 And I think in society, we don't always honor and worship the mother in the way that she

02:09:30.420 should be and that she gives life. 0.88

02:09:32.020 And it's, you know, it's kind of in the past has been relegated to kind of like the

02:09:37.320 home.

02:09:37.880 But what we respect is what people do out in the world.

02:09:41.140 It's just part of creating your own set of values and thinking for yourself of like what

02:09:47.200 is actually valuable.

02:09:49.320 And I think at the end of anyone's life, they'll say it's like the time they spent with their

02:09:52.720 kids and their loved ones.

02:09:54.080 And, you know, even these little small moments, I think for me, having been homeschooled and

02:10:00.640 had my whole, you know, a lot of the team around me focus on what I did, it created a

02:10:07.420 self-centered way of seeing the world.

02:10:09.280 And so I think this opportunity to step back and have not life be about like, what am I

02:10:14.560 going to do?

02:10:15.000 Am I going to be good enough?

02:10:16.100 Or what's the next thing?

02:10:17.120 Or how are people perceiving me?

02:10:19.000 But giving the gift of life and having my son and, you know, show me to kind of reawaken.

02:10:27.600 You know, I think a lot of times when we get to a certain place in life, we're a little

02:10:32.240 bit set in our ways of like what we expect, what disappoints us, how things should be.

02:10:37.140 And I think what I've heard from friends and parents is that your child is your greatest

02:10:42.180 teacher.

02:10:42.940 Because when they see something for the first time or they ask you about something, it's

02:10:47.040 the sense of play that you kind of forget about because you're worried about responsibilities

02:10:51.920 or how things should be.

02:10:53.140 I'm very much looking forward to that.

02:10:55.120 And I think, you know, I want to expose my child to the world, to travel, to show him

02:11:00.300 how big the world is and to really just explore it.

02:11:03.440 And, you know, life is this incredible adventure.

02:11:06.460 And so it's not really about becoming anything, like becoming a product or becoming really good

02:11:11.180 at something.

02:11:11.640 It's, I think, just having this huge life full of love and adventure.

02:11:18.940 Well, I mean, I can't seem to the future, but my intuition tells me you will embrace

02:11:22.940 and succeed.

02:11:24.940 I mean, succeed's maybe the wrong word, but for lack of a better word, you will certainly

02:11:27.960 embrace and succeed in motherhood in a way that you've done in everything else to date.

02:11:32.700 And I suspect it will only enhance this journey that you're on.

02:11:36.860 And I want to thank you so much for taking the time and being vulnerable with us to sort

02:11:41.460 of share a lot of this stuff.

02:11:42.780 I know it's hard sometimes for normal people like me to try to extract insights from the

02:11:49.500 best people in the world at something.

02:11:51.260 But I think you've done a great job of reminding us that whether you're the best at something

02:11:57.440 that seems, you know, like there can only be one best in the world, it is fleeting.

02:12:01.840 There's probably no arena in which that fleeting nature of greatness is more evident than in

02:12:07.840 the Olympic arena.

02:12:09.400 I'm glad you've brought us along this journey.

02:12:11.440 Thank you, Sasha.

02:12:12.260 Thank you for having me on and opportunity to go back and kind of reminisce.

02:12:17.660 So thank you.

02:12:18.480 I enjoyed it.

02:12:20.960 You can find all of this information and more at peteratiyamd.com forward slash podcast.

02:12:26.240 There you'll find the show notes, readings, and links related to this episode.

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02:12:52.240 But usually Twitter is the best way to reach me to share your questions and comments.

02:12:55.960 Now for the obligatory disclaimer.

02:12:57.380 This podcast is for general informational purposes only and does not constitute the

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The Peter Attia Drive - November 04, 2019

#78 - Sasha Cohen： The price of achievement, and redefining success

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