The Podcast of the Lotus Eaters - Christmas Podcast ｜ Should We Bring Back the Death Penalty

00:00:00.000 hi folks welcome to this xmas podcast where uh nate and i are going to be talking about the

00:00:16.180 most cheery of festive subjects hanging people and the question that has been raised recently

00:00:21.980 although for you it probably about two months ago now uh in parliament was right below he brought

00:00:27.580 up and we'll talk about that in a minute uh so do we want to bring back the death penalty now i'm sure

00:00:33.840 you do yeah and i do as well yeah we're going to make the arguments and we're going to go through

00:00:38.580 the counter arguments we're going to go through the statistics on the death penalty because i've

00:00:42.880 actually i've done a surprising a strange amount of work on this um are you okay no i know people 0.77

00:00:49.700 get down at the christmas no no no are you all right i will be when we start hanging some criminals

00:00:54.940 um yeah like it's been a it's been a particular um sort of canard of mine recently where it's like 0.91

00:01:02.860 no there are people who are still walking the earth who should not be walking the earth there

00:01:07.280 are people out there who do such terrible things that there is no redemption for them and the moral 0.98

00:01:13.580 thing to do would actually be to hang them uh and this is something the british public agree with 0.97

00:01:19.320 um as you can see uh polls and this this is just a poll from january right but there's constant constant 0.92

00:01:26.080 polls that give the sort of number of 50 to 55 percent of people uh agree with bringing back the

00:01:33.020 death penalty just if you and and there are loads of different kinds of polls as well different ways

00:01:37.220 of framing if you just ask people should we bring back the death penalty on average you'll get about

00:01:41.580 50 yes rate just half the british public like yeah when you start sort of drilling down into when you

00:01:47.900 start for whom yeah they're like yeah it goes up and up exactly and up and up for should we should

00:01:53.860 should the terrorists get death penalties like yeah should people should people who murder children get

00:01:58.280 the death penalty and it just like you say if you frame the question you can do this with any polling

00:02:02.660 but if you frame the question in a particular way then the answer goes higher and higher and higher

00:02:08.260 it's interesting isn't it because that that in itself is almost um basically the the a true

00:02:15.700 representation of british morality honestly it's english morality well yeah yeah i was trying to be

00:02:23.140 inclusive no no no no well i'll i've got is there a difference i've got the numbers i've got the

00:02:28.040 stats interesting um what i mean it's still case in point though is how it how you know we

00:02:34.340 our morality is very and it should be uh pinpointed for very specific things you know there is justice

00:02:41.700 oh yeah um you know one act is more uh just than the other based on the crime itself oh yeah i like

00:02:48.380 that i like that's a good representation yeah yeah but the the death penalty in particular is actually

00:02:53.940 something that the english have held for a long time and they've been uh they hold it as a genuine

00:03:02.000 moral good to execute criminals whereas if you look at um on the continent for example the death penalty

00:03:08.180 was banned like at the turn of the 20th century sorry i've got this cough still at the turn of the

00:03:14.240 20th century or the late 19th century by because of progressive movements right yeah it's all leftism

00:03:20.120 right the continent riddled with leftism and i read a book uh called the english are they human

00:03:24.840 by a dutch psychologist uh that was written in like 1920 or something like the english are they human

00:03:33.020 yeah yeah because his argument was basically like the english in the early 20th century were kind of

00:03:37.440 superhuman because we would have these because we had this giant empire and we took it seriously

00:03:43.240 um we applied a series of standards to ourselves but on the continent they didn't apply right and so

00:03:51.000 we we would have all sorts of standards of um uh customs and morality and procedure and so you

00:04:00.560 everything was very formalized right especially in the sort of um imperial heartland in the southeast

00:04:06.840 so the the average englishman having to live in close proximity because london was the biggest city

00:04:11.780 in the world at this point uh having to live in close proximity had a very well-defined series of

00:04:18.800 um politenesses as in when you got on the train and we still live with this when you get on the train

00:04:24.680 you're very quiet right everyone is quiet on the train that's not normal it's almost the inception of

00:04:30.340 the social contract that we all sort of live by culturally it was i guess it was the social

00:04:35.020 traditions that the english lived with and like even now if you get on the train in germany or

00:04:39.000 france they're not quiet on the train it is a peculiarly english thing where we're polite and what it

00:04:44.560 boiled down to is uh the english expect essentially to live their private lives in public uh you don't

00:04:49.980 expect the other guy to interfere with you because you're reading your book you're reading your paper

00:04:52.720 or you're just gazing out the window but that's just not a universal way of looking at things

00:04:57.100 um and this guy uh came over and did did his study on us and he was like one of the things that he

00:05:04.920 found abominable was the fact that we loved the death penalty we loved it we think we thought it was

00:05:10.860 core to morality and justice and of course being abolished on the continent they were just like

00:05:15.700 well this is barbaric it's like no look at the country you are literally describing us as the most

00:05:22.040 civilized country in the world yeah at the height of our empire and you're like oh but the death

00:05:28.440 penalty is barbaric it's like but it's not look at the country look at the people well that that's the

00:05:32.940 interesting nature of it isn't it really and i don't want to sort of jump too too far ahead on on

00:05:37.760 your sort of your segment and things but you know it's the sort of philosophical approach to

00:05:42.140 how a civilization stabilizes itself yeah you know only the civilized belong in a civilization

00:05:48.440 and therefore you know it is just the moral to remove via barbarism barbarians to maintain

00:05:56.760 civilized society yeah and so i look at it anyway yeah yeah no no no that is that's definitely

00:06:03.520 the thesis that underpins uh the english view of the death sentence um we if you just deserve and and

00:06:14.320 there are arguments that basically this is kind of like old pagan morality that where it's just like

00:06:19.460 you know the christian oh well should we forgive no that's for god to do we'll worry about forgiveness

00:06:25.300 in the afterlife we have a cosmic balance to redress here and actually we are going to do that because

00:06:32.500 that's the right thing and even now after decades of anti-death penalty propaganda even now half the

00:06:40.660 public more than like yeah of course we should be putting that guy to death so this this is just

00:06:45.940 remarkable and for anyone who's wondering the the death penalty in england in britain was abolished

00:06:51.840 in 1965 by a labor mp from a bill by a labor mp called sydney silverman so he's a second generation

00:06:59.120 immigrant from romania shouldn't even be uh shouldn't have happened shouldn't be in politics well 1.00

00:07:05.140 no that's the thing he's he's not an englishman uh he got dropped into a labor safe seat in order to

00:07:11.260 force this through the parliament and labor had a majority at the time and this was a long-running

00:07:16.500 thing he'd been campaigning for this for decades and you can go and read the debates they're on

00:07:20.960 the parliament website of him explaining why we should do this and it's not for any of the the

00:07:26.920 counter arguments that are being made now are not present in those debates they're not like oh but

00:07:31.340 what if we got the wrong person or anything like that what if uh what if there's a way of

00:07:35.100 rehabilitating people anything like that his argument is i think there might be a better way of deterring

00:07:40.560 people from committing crimes well crime is very high so that would indicate that that's not the case

00:07:47.500 well i mean from from the sort of 90s onwards there has been a decline but it is creeping back up now

00:07:52.540 well that goes back to my point is that when you allow barbarians into civilized society 1.00

00:07:57.460 civilization begins to fall but if you look at the you can actually i should have got the graph up

00:08:02.140 actually i didn't realize we're going to go this into depth sorry sorry no no no it's totally fine

00:08:06.600 but like you can see it as soon as the death penalty abolished in the 65 crime goes up and then it peaks

00:08:11.620 in the 90s so it didn't work it was wrong right and it's on like modernity and the the sort of

00:08:19.740 feminization of people that is uh making them less violent but the but the point is the british

00:08:26.080 public did not want this no one ever wanted this and almost everything that's ever happened to us

00:08:30.460 we've never been in favor of and the reason almost like there isn't a democracy it's almost like not

00:08:36.300 um but anyway so the point being nobody wanted this and so the other day rupert lowe brought this up in

00:08:41.980 parliament and man this was funny this was really funny let's just watch look at the response here

00:08:48.860 thank you mr speaker every week we hear of a brutal murder rape or stabbing far too often

00:08:56.480 perpetrated by someone who shouldn't be should not be in our country to begin with does the prime

00:09:01.720 minister agree that for cases where the guilt is so undeniable the crime so monstrous the evil so

00:09:09.020 irredeemable the reintroduction of the death penalty for both foreign and domestic criminals should be put

00:09:17.080 to the british people in a legally binding referendum

00:09:20.700 can i first say that um any attack is to be condemned and it is absolutely right

00:09:30.640 um and we're determined that there is a criminal justice response uh in relation to attack however

00:09:36.480 it's carried out and whoever it's carried out uh by but reintroducing the death penalty is not the

00:09:42.560 answer uh to this disagree now kia starmer spent a lot of his early career campaigning against the

00:09:50.340 death penalty for free yeah but also also for the most awful people yes child truly awful awful

00:09:59.460 humans monsters actual monsters and so we have two different kinds of morality perspective on display

00:10:05.220 here we've got kia starmer's uh redemptive progressive morality it's like oh i know he may have murdered a 0.85

00:10:11.000 child but right now he's in prison suffering is that right so yeah and then on the other side

00:10:16.080 you've got rupert lowe's vengeful english morality which is like mr prime minister these are monsters

00:10:21.800 and we should be hanging them and interesting that their whole reaction as well oh yeah instantly

00:10:27.160 and and and the response the actual the answer is well it's just not the way it's like okay but that

00:10:34.080 that's a non-response also it is the way yeah that does work i mean it's that's just simply

00:10:40.380 there is no counter argument aside from no yeah right brilliant yeah and so i mean literally he didn't

00:10:50.700 argue why it wasn't it was just like i don't like that that makes me uncomfortable yeah okay it makes

00:10:55.180 you uncomfortable but it makes me uncomfortable to say axel rudicabana is still breathing yeah but

00:10:59.260 that's the thing as well like you know rupert lowe he he quantified it quite well oh yeah so

00:11:06.740 irredeemable you know so undeniable um you know that guilt is is is a certainty i mean axel rudicabana

00:11:14.280 did do what he did like that's just a fact no one even contests it same with the lee rigby murderers

00:11:19.300 yeah they stood around blood on their hand bloody daylight stood around blood on their hand explaining

00:11:23.420 why they did it okay well then there's no question of their guilt is there yeah but we'll get into the

00:11:27.140 arguments against in a bit as you'll notice the mps freaked out just oh wow how could you and that's

00:11:35.600 because parliament on this subject is just not representative of the british people rupert lowe is

00:11:40.040 the only mp in parliament who wants the death penalty back every other and again i should have got a poll

00:11:45.120 up for this because i've seen i've covered it in the past on the podcast um every mp i think this

00:11:51.160 was done in 2021 uh when polled are you for the death penalty every mp is to the left of the labor

00:11:59.300 voters on the death penalty labor voters want the death penalty because they're normal people in

00:12:06.400 britain most people want the death penalty because that's what britain thinks and all of the mps apart 0.86

00:12:11.900 from rupert lowe conservative lib dem whoever are on the no side and so i thought we'd we'd just explore

00:12:20.740 the uh the concept because people will say well what about the bloody code so the bloody code was a

00:12:29.060 the the law codes of england from uh around 1680 to about 1830 um and what this was we'll get to

00:12:37.640 um what the bloody code was was the uh the the statutes of the country that prescribed for around

00:12:47.840 220 different crimes the death penalty now there's as you can see by john wallace here a study that i've

00:12:54.380 recently read i did have the actual book but i lost it so i had to get it from my kindle to reread it for

00:12:59.520 this but uh he did a study uh he's a professor from i can't remember which university now um but he just

00:13:05.800 did a study of the actual administration of justice and the death penalty from 1760 to 1830

00:13:14.560 so a 70 year period uh and this was done uh across uh he the the records are good in some areas not so

00:13:24.920 good in other areas like the records in the old bailey are good uh but he particularly covers kent from

00:13:30.200 the home circuit cornwall from the western circuit and the oxford and lancashire circuits in england

00:13:34.860 and then breckenshire glamorganshire and radnorshire in wales which is the brecken circuit i think it's

00:13:40.980 called um and so he he goes through um exactly how this is done now the bloody code itself sounds bad

00:13:50.360 right it sounds bad that you've got 220 different crimes that can be uh resulting in a death penalty

00:13:56.700 and these are quite voluminous i'm not gonna deny uh you've got crimes against property right which is by

00:14:03.640 far the largest category and these made up most of the capital offenses so theft related crimes

00:14:09.340 stealing goods worth more than a shilling which was amended later to more than 40 shillings

00:14:13.900 uh stealing from a dwelling or house above a certain value stealing from a shop or a warehouse

00:14:18.260 stealing horses stealing sheep stealing cattle pickpocketing goods above a trivial value

00:14:22.980 theft from a lodging house stealing linen from bleaching grounds burglary uh day or night house

00:14:28.920 breaking highway robbery armed robbery returning from transportation as in you've been sent to the

00:14:34.360 colonies and you've come back that could be a death penalty crimes against authority and this is this

00:14:40.260 is a really interesting thing forgery of banknotes will seals deeds stamps uh coining or counterfeiting

00:14:48.020 money or debasing the currency and you think

00:14:50.900 this used to be a death penalty right because rachel not just rachel yeah rishi sunak yeah all of them

00:15:01.580 for years or the furlough printing money right this used to be the this used to be a capital offense

00:15:07.400 because interfering with the value of the money was considered to be putting the entire realm at risk

00:15:14.280 because you're ruining everyone else's purchasing power basically yeah and so you're interfering with

00:15:18.860 everyone's ability to transact and so that would get you the death penalty um but then you've got

00:15:24.080 which i actually really agree with you know why are you debasing our money uh but then you've got like

00:15:28.380 destroying turnpikes damaging westminster bridge impersonating a chelsea pensioner 0.92

00:15:34.140 being found with forged stamps or molds rioting in groups above a certain number uh and then you've

00:15:40.620 caught poaching deer killing livestock with intense steel cutting down trees stealing fish from private

00:15:45.480 ponds damaging mills dams or riverworks arson of haystacks barns or houses breaking down riverbanks

00:15:51.720 setting fires coal mines sending threatening letters about property so this is this comes from the black 0.77

00:15:57.020 act which in 1723 adds another 50 capital crimes many of them really trivial well they're setting fire to a

00:16:04.420 coal mine yeah i mean that makes sense yeah that's how everything gets run and works and if that goes up

00:16:09.720 in flames i mean that's going to burn for quite some time yeah and you can see i mean the the english

00:16:14.340 have always had a thing about property anyway we we are a lot more concerned with property ownership

00:16:20.660 than most other countries and that's because um england is unusual in the middle ages because it had a

00:16:27.360 thriving property market because the english um man the average english man was a free yeoman

00:16:32.600 he wasn't actually a peasant a peasant is defined as someone who does not personally own property

00:16:38.940 peasants collectively own property so a peasant family for generations on this one bit of land will own 0.96

00:16:45.740 this uh collectively own this land and they'll have to work it and pay a certain portion to their lord

00:16:50.900 but what that means they can't buy or sell the land because it doesn't belong to any one person

00:16:55.640 and what that also means they can't disinherit anyone either right this is a peculiar english

00:17:00.480 perspective the idea that you can write a will that doesn't give your children anything it's

00:17:07.280 considered barbaric frankly in a lot of cultures uh but the english have been doing it since at least

00:17:11.540 1200 uh there's and there's been a thriving property market we've got lots of records on that

00:17:16.420 it's also as well that the you know dating back to god knows when you know the a an englishman's home

00:17:25.560 is his castle yes you know it's his private property yeah you know you don't come on there and do

00:17:29.960 anything oh yeah and that and that's quite i think unique um yeah it really is i mean we're we're

00:17:36.120 very again the the the sanctity of property looms large in the english mind and has done for many

00:17:41.780 centuries um this is basically the origins of capitalism uh come from england from this perspective

00:17:48.040 of you actually personally own something sorry hassan in in other countries it like for example in

00:17:55.400 germany france russia uh you didn't personally own things you didn't personally own your farm

00:18:01.280 you know whereas in england you did and that meant that we because i mean you'd have the family working

00:18:05.260 the farm well in england we had a lot of day laborers um and so we had a huge number of people

00:18:10.680 who would essentially contract their labor uh to work on farms or work in houses or whatever and so

00:18:15.840 you end up with a sort of victorian uh servant system you've got the big townhouses that have like

00:18:21.080 you know various layers of a rich family with various other people that they employ these people

00:18:25.160 are free but they just employ them to you know anyway so the uh the number of crimes against the

00:18:30.460 person are actually a lot lower but to be honest with you how many of them do you need right you've

00:18:35.160 got murder that carry the death penalty murder attempted murder rape sodomy bestiality infanticide

00:18:41.720 malicious wounding and dueling resulting in death so you could duel but maybe you want to be careful

00:18:47.180 about that then you have crimes against religion or the state which are high trees and petty trees

00:18:52.500 and piracy certain kinds of witchcraft and i've got a great quote from this here we hanged for

00:18:57.340 everything for a shilling for five shillings for 40 shillings for five pounds for cutting down a

00:19:01.700 sapling we hang for a sheep for a horse for a cattle for coining for forgery even for witchcraft 0.99

00:19:06.560 for things that uh that were and things that could not be lord coke's cursed tree of the gallows was

00:19:12.340 planted and prospered in every country throughout the land and christian men and women swung on it 0.77

00:19:16.560 thick as the leaves in valambrosa which is a quote from the time from about 1800 however what wallace

00:19:24.540 has done is actually gone through the actual records of how many people actually hanged under the bloody

00:19:29.540 code and it's far fewer than you might imagine the uh the online right has a kind of phrase where they

00:19:36.840 they'll say look all you have to do is hang one percent of the population each year and you end up

00:19:42.220 living in a wonderful place well we we hanged far fewer than that which i'll get to in a minute

00:19:46.040 say yeah one percent of the population that's quite a lot really well that'd be huge thousands

00:19:52.000 of people and it was nowhere near you don't need to hang nearly that many people um so between for

00:19:57.700 the for example the old bailey between 1674 and 1837 uh they tried 113 000 people and 9774 were

00:20:06.820 eventually executed but that's in about 160 years and 9 9 000 you said about 9 500 in 160 years and

00:20:15.080 out of a proportion of how many 113 000 people who had tried that's pretty good that narrows the

00:20:21.060 justice down if the argument was against it for instance right that that clearly indicates that

00:20:27.380 it wasn't frivolous no hanging right it wasn't a frivolous thing they took it seriously they did and

00:20:33.420 that's that's exactly the point and the the thing is london was a bit of a unique case as well

00:20:37.440 because uh this was during the period of massive upheaval and london uh the the sort of the

00:20:46.000 beginnings of the british empire and london itself has swelled to 1.4 million people oh wow yeah okay

00:20:52.180 so that's really good then well exactly and and the thing is as well uh london and kent in particular

00:20:57.040 have a have a particular demographic issue that you've got people coming from all over the country

00:21:02.060 who are moving down to london who are not embedded in the community they don't know people you know

00:21:07.940 and what kinds of people are doing that is well disproportionately criminal actually um and that

00:21:14.380 that basically worked out to one execution per week in london that's pretty tame it is pretty for that

00:21:21.280 sort of time period as well yeah i'd say that's quite tame i thought so too uh but then outside of

00:21:28.280 that in the periphery uh basically it it hardly happened at all so between 1760 and 1830 uh you

00:21:37.660 you had you know however many people uh indicted and then about 84 to 88 of them were were um convicted

00:21:46.260 of uh a crime and most of them about 80 being property offenses with about 30 to 45 of those being

00:21:54.520 larceny such as theft nonsense uh no one ever got hanged for larceny by the way um uh but in in

00:22:01.940 england elsewhere outside of london uh only 14 of them were crimes against the person and six percent

00:22:08.040 for like other crimes like treason or whatever right um so that's actually it's just about protecting

00:22:14.300 property most of the time most of the criminal justice code and the jury was actually the most

00:22:19.840 important thing about the the uh the the nature of the uh conviction so the jury was always able to

00:22:30.100 choose the level of guilt of the people so obviously they could return bills saying not guilty or no

00:22:36.980 prosecution but often what they would do is return a bill of ignoramus so the person themselves there's

00:22:43.200 some sort of mental handicap uh other than guilty obviously if they did the crime and so you've got

00:22:50.460 and so this this book's full of tables and so even if even if person's found guilty they're indicted

00:22:56.940 they're found guilty by jury the jury then gets to decide whether they get the death penalty or not

00:23:02.200 by returning either a full verdict or a partial verdict if they return a full verdict then of course they

00:23:08.120 qualify for the death penalty but if they return a partial verdict then they don't so they get some

00:23:12.280 other punishment right so for example in cornwall um you've got uh out of like however many actual

00:23:20.500 uh convictions only 35 of them ended in a conviction for a death penalty uh 16.5 of them got

00:23:28.000 transportation which is deport to the colonies uh 36.5 to prison or labor or 12 other in kent 33 death

00:23:35.480 penalty lancashire 50 pretty vengeful in lancashire in an oxford 39 death penalty and

00:23:42.240 the others being you know transportation of prison labor but out of those actually about 85 80 to 85

00:23:49.140 percent would be pardoned so in lancashire for example which uh the out out of the 50 percent

00:23:56.020 out of yeah so like in lancashire for that for the that 70 period 70 year period of time

00:24:01.360 1 346 people were sentenced to death but in lancashire 82 percent of them were pardoned so

00:24:09.500 actually only 240 people in 70 years in lancashire were actually executed for their crimes now that's

00:24:16.760 one of the highest in england there are other areas like oxfordshire did 42 in 70 years so there'd be

00:24:24.140 basically one every other year not that bad that's not no not really and then we i'm surprised i am

00:24:29.580 surprised right but i mean what's that indicative of you know it being such a great deterrent people

00:24:35.000 being um you know very meticulous it's it's all sorts of things because obviously each individual

00:24:42.660 crime is different and um most most of the um hangings uh were to were basically based on what

00:24:50.960 the jury felt was genuinely appropriate right so um for example highway robbers and sheep stealers

00:24:57.380 sheep rustlers and burglars were treated particularly harshly uh 55 percent of highway robbers were

00:25:02.740 executed i think that's fair yeah well right exactly that put yourself in your in their shoes would you

00:25:08.800 want to be traveling you know and and be robbed no right well exactly because they were they were viewed

00:25:13.760 as hardened criminals yeah if you're going to ambush someone on a highway when they're traveling

00:25:17.980 stick them up with a literally like with a with an old pistol um then you're allowing to be

00:25:24.760 profiting in your country a cadre of hardened criminals you don't want that you know whereas if someone

00:25:30.820 is starving they steal a loaf of bread the jury are going to they might find them guilty of stealing a loaf

00:25:35.960 of bread but deliver a partial or ignoramus verdict so they didn't really get punished in the way that the law

00:25:41.380 actually prescribed so the the people of the country were actually in control of the quality of just

00:25:47.960 this that was being dealt out and i mean there are a few other interesting numbers like men are

00:25:53.200 obviously by a huge number more likely than women uh to be it just found guilty let alone be sentenced

00:26:00.020 to death 85 percent sexist judiciary coming in even as early as that it's always been the way i'm for

00:26:08.900 equality it's it's always been the way that makes sense and you know what's also really interesting

00:26:14.580 is that male rapists and female infanticides often were acquitted by juries as well or not not

00:26:20.500 not necessarily acquitted but um uh given ignoramus or partial sentences really yeah i'm surprised by

00:26:29.940 that yeah well the the problem is they of course had a much lower standard of evidence to work with

00:26:35.320 oh yeah that's true and so obviously um they absolutely loathed rape but you couldn't be sure

00:26:44.600 yeah that's i mean that's fair and so the the juries were more likely to uh side and the same with

00:26:50.800 infanticide actually uh that the more more lenient with the woman because she'd have had you know some 1.00

00:26:56.160 emotional issue or something like that um murderers were only between 11 and 29 percent of the executions

00:27:02.380 so a lot of it was for property crimes so basically highwaymen um you know what the most interesting

00:27:07.700 aggravating factors uh for crimes were is whether we were at war or at peace so during periods of war

00:27:15.040 you would get much lower crime rates because and the government specifically would uh recruit

00:27:23.640 rough men for the army and so during peace you had a genuine spike and this was a much more

00:27:32.280 important aggravating factor than poverty or famine there are times where there have been famines

00:27:37.560 and there have been riots on famines but crime actually doesn't correlate with poverty or famine

00:27:42.160 in the british in the english codes um it actually correlates with whether we're at war with france or

00:27:48.960 not genuinely during the napoleonic era just some rough men going oh god yeah i haven't murdered

00:27:54.780 anyone lately well genuinely like when the idle hands well when when 50 000 men come back from

00:28:01.220 fighting napoleon or whatever yeah okay well you're you know you're disbanded now just go about your day

00:28:06.120 well what kind of men do you think they were you know they were rough dudes yeah makes sense um

00:28:11.380 and so yeah it's just it's not nearly what the sort of modern interpretation of the bloody code is

00:28:19.940 technically yes you could for 220 plus crimes be given the death penalty but the reality of it's

00:28:26.840 but the reality of it because and this is why it persisted for so long because the juries and so the

00:28:33.320 public themselves were actually in control um if it was very actually unlikely you would be executed

00:28:39.420 um again like uh 85 or 88 percent um of people are pardoned even when they're given the death penalty

00:28:48.220 because of mitigating factors because people are okay look yeah he you break you you come home your

00:28:54.520 wife's cheating on you and you kill the man or the or your wife okay well that's a death sentence 0.66

00:29:00.260 but if you're on the jury you're like well yeah okay what would i do in that situation exactly right

00:29:07.500 and there's a great um there's a great uh book by henry morton a journalist in the 1920s called

00:29:13.340 in search of england where he he nearly dies in palestine and he's like christ so he goes he comes

00:29:18.520 back to england he just gets in his old you know the whatever car he's got he just drives around

00:29:22.320 and there's this one bit where he drives to i can't remember some you know village somewhere

00:29:26.000 and there's a man and woman who are hanging in the gallows and there's a there's a little sign

00:29:32.140 underneath so well they murdered their children it's like right so you can see the joke well you

00:29:36.180 murdered your own children yes you're hanging for that um if you did something that was

00:29:41.260 out you know out of character a crime of passion something like that you're much more much more

00:29:46.820 likely to have the sympathy of the jury because it's the jury that actually decided what's really

00:29:50.940 interesting is the welsh the welsh what is it let me guess sheep wrestlers no oh violence actually

00:30:02.080 where they are yeah the welsh were particularly bellicose people um which they still are 1.00

00:30:07.880 respect the the welsh in the valleys yeah i'm not saying you don't um but the in in the time

00:30:14.820 particularly bellicose so uh if there was any kind of um altercation between two welshers straight up

00:30:21.800 straight to violence and this this is you know in the 1800s uh english english uh legal minds

00:30:28.360 were just kind of bewildered by just how quickly the welsh would just go straight to violence with 0.96

00:30:35.120 one another um but the problem is welshmen were nearly impossible to convict 1.00

00:30:40.240 because there was and this is why i said no this is genuinely an english perspective

00:30:45.560 because of the jury because of the jury uh in group preference they literally yeah i've got a quote

00:30:52.480 that's rearing its head isn't it it was very difficult to have justice done in wales by a

00:30:57.900 jury of welshmen for they're all related to one another and therefore would rather acquit a criminal

00:31:03.840 than have the scandal that one of their name or relations should be hanged and that to try a man

00:31:08.720 for murder in wales was like trying to try a man in scotland for high treason those crimes are not

00:31:12.940 much regarded in their respective places that's amazing literally like having a black jury that's

00:31:18.760 brilliant it genuinely like literally welsh in group preference and it's because um the welsh i

00:31:27.400 kind of respect it a little bit oddly in a way but this is why i said those is this is actually a

00:31:33.600 peculiar thing right because what what it was is the welsh had um and again it was people from the

00:31:40.540 1800s saying this they had the kind of indian view of face as in the community itself if if someone is

00:31:48.880 like it brings shame on the entire community because the welsh communities were a lot less 0.97

00:31:53.020 mobile than the english communities the average englishman uh the in the average english village

00:31:58.240 only a third of the people would be there for more than three generations right so actually the

00:32:02.740 english moved around a lot within england which is probably why we had such stringent laws and why we

00:32:08.700 were so concerned about property so if i moved to another village like you know 100 miles away

00:32:12.920 the rules are the same and they're implemented with the same sort of ferocity right but in wales

00:32:17.460 they're much more sedentary actually they don't they didn't move and this is why the reputation of

00:32:22.580 the community weighs so much more heavy i think bigger bigger gene pool in england yeah more mobile as

00:32:28.200 well um but the uh but the point is like i said it was genuinely a kind of english prejudice

00:32:34.240 to want actual punishment for actual wrongdoers and the deciding uh the the the power of decision was

00:32:42.500 put into the hands of the juries and so actually uh getting back to the were one percent of the

00:32:48.520 population executed annually and the answer is no nowhere near um only in the worst counties such as

00:32:55.860 kent there were literally about five people executed a year in kent right over the 70-year period

00:33:01.460 yeah and that's that's the highest right there are areas in i mean wales half of wales would

00:33:08.500 basically never execute someone right and even in like oxford or cambridge or wherever you'd only get

00:33:14.540 one or two but let's assume that in all of the 52 counties of england and wales in 1800 they executed

00:33:20.380 five people a year right that's only 260 people a year out of a population of 8.9 million

00:33:25.340 and so that actually is uh what 0.0029 so that's less than three thousandths of a percent and and yeah

00:33:35.060 it's still acted as a you know a really good deterrent very clearly exactly and it's it's because

00:33:41.220 it's it was barely ever used right again out of hundreds of thousands of crimes only a very small

00:33:48.560 handful each year would actually result in the death penalty but it's good that it was there because what

00:33:54.060 that did is allow the population to feel like their country had that kind of you know nuclear option

00:33:59.960 as it's a barrier isn't it it's you know you cross this you cross this bridge there's no coming back

00:34:04.620 from that exactly so i thought we'd go through some arguments for and against the death penalty

00:34:10.320 let's do the ones against and you can you can argue with me on this so the most common one is

00:34:16.500 it's cruel it's inhuman it violates the fundamental right to life essentially mirror the mirroring the act

00:34:22.860 it condemns what well if you're killing someone because they kill yeah but you don't yeah well

00:34:30.000 yeah but you don't have a right to life to be honest like if you remove someone's life you forfeit your

00:34:35.760 life right i mean that's one argument my argument anyway well i mean the the cruelty is kind of the

00:34:43.560 point actually but also well yeah but also surely you know you're removing someone's life by

00:34:50.940 imprisoning them for the rest of theirs so that the counter argument in and unto itself doesn't

00:34:56.140 make that much sense because the the the alternative that they propose as the punishment is still a

00:35:01.740 removal of their freedom at the very least i mean what a fundamental altering of their entire life

00:35:07.240 but why why are the rights of the criminal more yeah rights of the victim is that bloody universal

00:35:12.640 human rights yeah this is the point that bikini makes like look you're really prioritizing the 1.00

00:35:17.660 rights of the criminal over his own victims like because it when we are like talking about it you know

00:35:24.700 you're looking at it in a courtroom so you've got like the guy on trial and everything is peaceful

00:35:28.680 and calm you're not witnessing like you know however long it took of utter bloody severity you know

00:35:36.260 profound injustice that this person is inflicting on someone else and so it's so easy for the

00:35:42.820 kirstarmers of the world to go oh but look he's harmless now isn't he so yeah but he wasn't when

00:35:46.880 he was bludgeoning an old woman to death why he's here yeah exactly not like you you if you were 0.98

00:35:52.100 witnessing that happen you'd be like holy shit someone stopped this madman and so i'm i'm totally 0.98

00:35:56.920 against this kind of moral weakness it's like what what i guess a good counter-argument to that i mean 0.77

00:36:02.420 there's so many yeah arguments anyway because it's a really weak source one but it's how what lengths

00:36:07.620 would you go to in the in the moment that that person is committing murder to stop them well that's

00:36:14.740 nine times out of ten people would kill them to stop them from murdering someone right what would 0.99

00:36:19.440 you do to stop someone from murdering you would you kill them yeah someone broke into my house with 0.79

00:36:24.380 my family yeah but that's the point isn't it i wouldn't even think twice so it's not an argument 0.98

00:36:30.460 against the death of them for christ's sake i'm like what are you doing hung drawn and cordoned

00:36:34.420 yeah literally but but so then at that point when you get down to your your you know your base instincts

00:36:40.120 it's not a counter-argument to be like well that you know i think you're exactly right it only works

00:36:46.900 in the abstract right it only works outside of the actual event itself remove yourself put yourself in

00:36:52.780 this situation at that point in time this person's coming at you with a knife are you prepared to kill

00:36:57.620 them to stop them yes obviously but even then that's like that's fine that's that's you being 0.93

00:37:04.080 an agent right imagine that you're 10 and some guy kidnaps you rapes you for an hour and then strangles

00:37:12.060 you to death and that is horrific right genuinely like the the level of horror for an extended period

00:37:19.660 of time that kid goes through and then kia stompers like oh yeah i know but look at him he looks so sad

00:37:24.480 now it's like kia like i'm sorry i don't care i i want him to look worse you know such a strange

00:37:31.800 moral compass people have where they just completely exclude the actual things that they've done yeah

00:37:37.900 the victims and the the thought process think of the suffering of the victims yeah i mean that there

00:37:43.400 was completely unjust they inflicted it for their own pleasure they inflicted it because they could

00:37:47.240 and they wanted to yeah and the suffering for however long until that person dies finally and you're

00:37:52.980 like really really grotesque as a human to do this kind of things like i i've got dogs i don't have

00:37:58.720 kids and when i tell my dogs off like i feel bad i feel bad but i know i have to do it when i tell my

00:38:06.080 kids off i feel bad too exactly right but can you imagine putting yourself in a situation where you

00:38:10.460 would do physical harm to the innocent right like it just wouldn't even cross my mind in the most 0.89

00:38:16.780 horrific ways as well yeah no exactly you've got to be a real monster to do those things and for

00:38:22.300 someone like kia starmer just to stand there and just be like what think of them so yeah so the most 1.00

00:38:29.080 common the most common argument against the death penalty really is the risk of error right this is

00:38:33.420 when you hear they always default back to ah but what if you've got the wrong guy well then we won't

00:38:37.860 i don't want to execute the innocent yeah the argument was this undeniable again

00:38:42.480 axel rudy cabana being the one like exactly he did he do it yes there you go then and at this

00:38:48.960 point we have such advanced ways of uh monitoring and checking see that we have the right guy but

00:38:56.540 it's kind of it's crazy i mean we're the most surveilled science society in the world right

00:39:00.120 so you can barely go anywhere without being caught on a camera well london alone has about a million

00:39:04.620 cctv cameras way more than just absurd as to the the amount of crime that goes on there because

00:39:09.200 you should be able to do stuff actually yeah but then then you've also got of course dna testing

00:39:14.320 and uh like you know phone tracking and all these sorts of things triangulate and then you've got

00:39:19.680 the traditional ways of you know sworn oaths by witnesses and all so people admit it and people

00:39:25.480 admit it like they literally say yeah i did it like the murderers of uh lee rigby yeah so it how about

00:39:31.620 we don't execute people who didn't do something yeah i it's novel isn't it and we only execute those

00:39:36.600 people that we know did a novel idea um so there are arguments that it's a lack of deterrence

00:39:41.520 studies show no conclusive evidence that the death penalty deters crime more effectively than life

00:39:46.220 imprisonment how would you commit that study you that would be a very difficult study to to pan out

00:39:51.680 because like say say like the medical field for instance or science field like it's a double blind

00:39:56.400 study like some people think that something's happening and some people don't like you wouldn't be

00:40:00.640 able to do that in a way by which you know modern day standards would find appropriate but and i don't

00:40:07.440 care yeah i don't care if it deters non-argument really isn't it i i don't want these people hanged

00:40:13.360 as a deterrent i want these people hanged as revenge for the thing they did to someone else

00:40:18.780 like yeah i'm not i don't care if it doesn't deter or not yeah i mean there's there's many yeah 0.96

00:40:24.600 well you'll get into the reasons for it so i'll hold my tongue for them um then uh you've got

00:40:30.060 oh it's the cost oh it's a lengthy appeals process makes it more expensive than life

00:40:34.400 imprisonment it's 50 grand no no it's not yeah yeah 50 grand per year on average to house someone

00:40:39.480 in prison that's nonsense yeah that's actual nonsense and a baseball bat's like 10 pound yeah

00:40:45.380 and the final one is the brutalization of society state sanctioned killing can degrade society's

00:40:51.180 respect for life no i don't agree that it does no i think it heightens respect for life it's actually

00:40:56.860 the it it's the the um the opposite of that is because then people you know hold life to such

00:41:04.600 a higher standard and a higher degree if you do something i mean you no no i think the same is

00:41:13.060 true it basically that's like reverse speak because the fact that we don't punish people to such a high

00:41:21.340 degree the fact that pedophiles for instance can literally not spend any time in prison do you think

00:41:27.100 that that what what message not not you you know this but what message does that actually send out

00:41:32.200 that's actually fine murder yeah it's fine yeah you know it it doesn't speak to a culture that holds

00:41:39.980 life to a high standard that we allow people to languish luxuriously in prison with ps5s 1.00

00:41:48.340 great meals that they can eat great heat in year round and all the mod cons that they desire

00:41:55.380 or also apparently female prison officers on tap i mean that doesn't exactly speak to a culture that 1.00

00:42:02.980 goes yeah life is important because these people are being punished but they're not and that no no

00:42:08.840 that's exactly right right that's exactly right what what it says is that actually we don't really

00:42:14.640 value the lives of the victims that you've taken yeah you're valuing the the perpetrators it'd be a

00:42:20.340 different story well it'd be partially a different story if those that were advocating against the

00:42:25.820 death penalty were like yeah i'm against the death penalty but i'm also against these people living 0.81

00:42:31.360 it up in prison you know they should be in a hole not for that at all no no i know that's what i'm

00:42:35.920 saying it would be a different story but they're not they're not there are they they're they're like

00:42:39.600 no the status quo is fine so obviously it's not fine yeah like obviously that's not okay and and

00:42:44.980 it's and it really is about the moral argument i think for and so nietzsche uh makes some great

00:42:50.380 points in some of his work about the nature of morality and what the death penalty actually means

00:42:57.480 right so i've got a few quotes here which are i think really important so in human all too human

00:43:02.740 he points out the look we intentionally kill a gnat because we don't like his buzz we intentionally

00:43:08.620 punish the criminal and do him harm to protect ourselves and society in the first case it is

00:43:14.180 the individual who does harm intentionally for the self-preservation or simply to avoid discomfort

00:43:17.960 in the second case it's the state that does harm but all morality allows the infliction of harm for

00:43:23.780 self-defense that's it's a matter of self-preservation right that's what morality is and then in the

00:43:29.800 genealogy of morals he's got a really under it's a bit of a long quote but i'm going to read out because i

00:43:34.140 really think this actually gets into the the moral heart of it right so he says the realization of

00:43:41.460 these contractual relations excites of course a great deal of suspicion and opposition towards the

00:43:47.280 primitive society which made us sanction them so what he's saying there is morality is based on 1.00

00:43:51.540 contract right it's it's understood that i won't hurt you and you won't hurt me and if i do hurt you

00:43:57.640 then i incur a debt to you and that debt has to be paid he says in this society promises will be made

00:44:04.580 in this society the object is to provide the promiser with a memory in this society so we may

00:44:09.660 suspect there will be full scope for hardness cruelty and pain the oar in order to induce credit in his

00:44:15.720 promise of payment in order to give a guarantee of the earnestness and sanctity of his promise in

00:44:20.460 order to drill his into his own consciousness the duty the solemn duty of repayment will by virtue of a

00:44:26.580 contract with his creditor to meet the contingency of his not paying pledge something that he still

00:44:31.660 possesses something that he has in his power for instance his life or his wife or the freedom of

00:44:36.960 his body so the point being everyone knows you're gonna have to give something up when you've taken

00:44:42.300 something from someone else yeah well yeah i mean but the state knows this on many different levels as

00:44:47.240 well you know like you commit fraud what do they do well they fine you well they take money back

00:44:53.180 but this yeah and so if you take a life oh you just sit in prison it's fine exactly right you get

00:45:00.360 20 years in prison maybe you know you'll be out for good behavior so it's like look there is a debt

00:45:05.340 and everyone accepts that there is a moral debt here uh like you say that's exactly how the way that

00:45:10.120 the justice system works now it's about paying off this debt and i'm sorry but i just don't think

00:45:15.140 axel rudikabana can pay off his debt by sitting in a prison well clearly not because he's like

00:45:19.840 he's a great there's many studies many instances examples like he's he's a great example of someone

00:45:28.160 that will never repent like i mean he's continued to do barbaric things in prison well i mean which

00:45:35.340 is mad that he's in a position to be able to do that in the first place which speaks to the fact

00:45:39.040 the state isn't punishing people appropriately this is what i found on this one right this um as you see

00:45:45.000 a left lefty journalist who's just like oh everyone's capable of redemption it's like no

00:45:50.280 they're not they're actually not not everyone why would i want axel rudikabana to be redeemed

00:45:55.140 yeah right he like sorry he will never pay back the debt of the three children he murdered

00:46:01.080 so why would i want to redeem him what like the only redemption that could be is him sacrificing his

00:46:07.120 own life to pay off that burden and this i'm gonna go through nichi a bit more because i i just think

00:46:12.620 this is really completely correct right it says the creditor is the power of inflicting on the body

00:46:18.060 of the oa all kinds of pain and torture the power for instance of cutting off from it an amount that

00:46:22.760 appeared to be proportionate to the greatness of the debt this point of view resulted in the

00:46:26.880 universal prevalence at an early date of precise schemes of valuation frequently horrible in the

00:46:31.480 minuteness and meticulosity of their application legally sanctioned schemes of valuation for individual

00:46:36.340 limbs and parts of the body as in an eye for an eye yeah exactly right and but

00:46:41.480 everyone agrees like you said the the legal system is a contractual morality and so everyone

00:46:47.520 actually agrees that is the morality we operate under um it's not for everything well i mean it's

00:46:53.920 definitely for murder oh yeah you know like the the equivalence consists in this instead of an

00:46:59.100 advantage directly compensatory of his injury uh the creditor is granted by way of repayment and

00:47:03.780 compensation a certain sensation of satisfaction the satisfaction of being able to vent without any

00:47:08.460 trouble his power on one who is powerless as in the criminal right so this is the cathartic

00:47:15.500 nature of what the death penalty brings so at the moment the poor parents of the girls who are

00:47:21.460 murdered have got to live every day knowing that that balance has not been paid yeah and that's

00:47:28.160 like an eternal torment exactly and that creates what he calls bad conscience so it creates

00:47:34.500 resentment yep yeah yeah builds this resentment so um this uh poisons the spirit of the society when we

00:47:45.960 allow this kind of resentment to just build and build and build and so he is of the opinion that

00:47:50.220 basically um older societies in which we have the death penalty are like the the cruelty that we

00:47:58.320 inflict on the wrongdoer creates a vibrancy in the rest of society to the to the righteous right as

00:48:05.640 in the the righteous don't have bad conscience they don't build up this resentment they don't build up a

00:48:12.220 kind of hatred against the system itself for not punishing adequately and appropriately those people

00:48:18.480 who have done terrible things and the question is well why don't we do it now and he's got a good

00:48:23.080 answer to this as well actually he says as society grows more powerful the community tends to take the

00:48:28.140 offenses of the individual less seriously because they are now regarded as being much less revolutionary

00:48:32.860 and dangerous to the corporate existence the evildoer is no longer outlawed and put outside the pale

00:48:38.440 the common wrath can no longer vent itself on him with its old license on the contrary from this very

00:48:44.300 time it is against the wrath and particularly against the wrath of those directly injured that the

00:48:48.160 evildoer is carefully shielded and protected by the community think of the way that the media

00:48:52.740 oh look at this welsh choir boy look at this 12 year old picture of rudicabana why are they shielding

00:48:59.140 him he just murdered three girls and yet they feel that rudicabana isn't essentially a revolutionary

00:49:06.060 uh act against the community and so nietzsche has them banged to rights on this he says on the contrary

00:49:13.020 from this very time it is against the wrath and particularly against the wrath of those directly

00:49:16.440 injured that the evildoers shielded in fact the penal law develops the following character as the

00:49:22.840 penal law develops the following characteristics become more and more clearly marked compromise with

00:49:28.360 the wrath of those directly affected by the misdeed and a consequent endeavor to localize the matter and

00:49:32.880 prevent further or indeed a general spread of the disturbance attempts to find equivalence and

00:49:37.960 settle the whole matter above all the will which manifests itself with increasing definiteness

00:49:43.740 to treat every offense as in a certain degree capable of being paid off and consequently

00:49:48.880 up until a rate at a certain point to isolate the offender from his act and that's exactly what they

00:49:55.680 do like when when they're like well and this is kirstama having empathy for the child murderers in 0.87

00:50:01.340 the prison yeah but he's not doing now is he you know as the power and self-consciousness of the

00:50:07.220 community increases so proportionally does the penal law be mitigated conversely every weakening and

00:50:12.280 jeopardizing of the community revives the harshest form of that law and so that's why i think this

00:50:17.340 is coming back in salience when we were in the 90s or something it was like oh well you know we felt

00:50:22.640 strong we felt confident maybe we didn't want it but now how strong and confident are we feeling as a

00:50:29.100 society and suddenly rupert lowe's in parliament going we need to bring back the death penalty we need

00:50:33.700 to you know it's a way of bolstering society's own strength yeah um but there's a there's a great bit here as

00:50:39.980 well uh the creditor has always grown more humane proportionally as he has grown more rich

00:50:46.840 finally the amount of injury he can endure without suffering becomes the criterion of his wealth it is

00:50:52.420 possible to conceive of a society blessed with so greater consciousness of its own power as to indulge

00:50:58.280 in the most aristocratic luxury of letting its wrongdoers go scot-free you wrote this in the 19th

00:51:05.280 century and now in the 21st century what do what do democrat judges do what do our judges do 0.96

00:51:11.320 yeah constantly letting wrongdoers go yeah what do my parasites what do my parasites matter to me 0.79

00:51:18.380 might society say let them live and flourish i am strong enough for it the justice which begun with 0.82

00:51:23.400 the maxim everything can pay can be paid off everything must be paid off ends with the connivance

00:51:29.380 the escape of those who cannot pay to escape it ends like every good thing on earth by destroying 1.00

00:51:35.420 itself the self-destruction of justice we know the pretty name it calls itself grace

00:51:40.680 isn't that just brutal absolutely brutal indictment of our own civilization yeah we feel

00:51:49.060 complacent we feel like we can just take it forever and nietzsche called it he's like look if 0.95

00:51:55.760 you don't kill your parasites you you build up this kind of bad consciousness this resentment this 0.96

00:52:02.180 is the weakening society the darkening of society into something that feels unjust for the people who 0.95

00:52:08.700 are on the receiving end of it the people who aren't allowed to have that sort of cathartic purgation

00:52:16.520 of the negative conscience through the repayment of the debt that the murderer actually incurs

00:52:24.100 um this this is a society that itself is going to end up abolishing justice as a concept well which

00:52:32.980 is where we're going yeah well yeah i mean i mentioned pedophiles right i mean that is something which

00:52:38.400 where's the justice there i mean they a lot of them just that they a lot of them don't even go to

00:52:43.700 prison it's mental there's also happens all the time in january of this year uh our government

00:52:50.240 basically maneuvered to stop putting women behind bars in prison i mean that's mental all this stuff

00:52:55.700 is mental yep as if absolute madness it is absolutely insane isn't it and so you you end up

00:53:03.260 with uh a resentful society that doesn't feel like it's a just society and will eventually destroy

00:53:10.380 itself where you don't have civilized again this goes to my core argument is you know civilization is

00:53:15.580 for the civilized barbarians don't belong in a civilized society so if you perform a barbaric act

00:53:21.020 you get removed and removal via death so it's perfectly just from that degree and yeah i mean if

00:53:29.480 you allow those uh barbarians to um proliferate through your society you don't have civilization 1.00

00:53:38.200 anymore it collapses in on itself exactly and so i i personally am completely in favor of bringing

00:53:45.220 about the death penalty in order to

00:53:47.380 in order to actually 0.99

00:53:52.720 make our society the good society that it used to be as we allow these you know moral parasites 0.86

00:54:01.600 to continue to build up the bad consciousness in our own uh countries but is it any wonder people

00:54:09.280 are getting angrier is any wonder that people are losing faith in the system is any wonder

00:54:14.380 the people who we allow to take advantage of us keep multiplying there's if like i'm not bothered

00:54:22.280 whether it's a deterrent or not but i think if they see that you know this guy did something awful

00:54:27.140 and he got hardly anything these guys did something you know middling and nothing happened to them at all

00:54:32.220 why would i care if i follow the laws or not yeah and if you're a law-abiding citizen i mean how do you

00:54:37.980 feel about paying tax at the moment with rachel reeves making sure that old grabbers get unbelievable 1.00

00:54:44.140 amounts of your money like how do you feel about it is is the bad conscience building up

00:54:48.560 oh i'm massively resentful exactly i have absolutely i am as well because to start like you know again

00:54:56.140 every every interaction is a transaction right so them taking my money maybe i wouldn't be as

00:55:04.180 frustrated with it if things were were better or you'd look at it and you go all right well yeah

00:55:09.080 cool like it's paying for this to go and this things improve but things are getting worse if it

00:55:13.180 was at least just right yeah if things are getting worse if it was still a just cause i wouldn't be so

00:55:17.840 resentful about it but like i could literally just for 50 of the population to do nothing oh brilliant

00:55:22.420 yeah well done great i love that you saw you saw the the single mothers who are getting like six 0.96

00:55:27.700 grand a year yeah a month a month yeah yeah it's mad yeah which you'd have to earn 138 000 pound a

00:55:33.440 year to take that home and i'm just sat there like there are moral debts being incurred all over the

00:55:39.140 place that example i don't even think that person's english i think they are she's american yeah why is

00:55:43.700 an american getting my tax i know why foreigners getting any of our money but the point being

00:55:48.200 nietzsche is right about the perpetual state of injustice yeah building up resentment creating

00:55:53.080 bad conscience and making this is making society darker and angrier yeah this is why everyone knows

00:55:58.620 that the feeling is palpable this is why everyone's like all you're trying to do is

00:56:02.840 cram this lid back on a pressure cooker yeah because it's all encompassing it's not just from

00:56:09.160 um this death penalty situation but it spirals out from everywhere and they are that's constantly what

00:56:14.500 they're trying to do to maintain this status quo that they think is fine but the status quo the

00:56:19.140 rights of the criminals obviously not good yeah you know that's the thing the criminals and the

00:56:23.280 indolent are as worthy as the law abiding and the hard working so how about no how about the ones 1.00

00:56:28.960 which are abiding by the law their rights uh you know that their human rights should be paramount

00:56:34.800 above all else because they are they're they're servicing the social contract in a way which you 0.88

00:56:39.720 desire so even just from that contractual basis and rules-based system that these absolute losers

00:56:45.540 live by yeah i mean even from that basis that that's a good argument but no no no no no no no no

00:56:51.180 but the i but the the murderer's rights are more important than the the uh the murdered what honestly

00:56:56.520 i can feel my own bad conscience growing with the just continued existence of axel axel rudy kubana

00:57:01.940 like i'm sorry i hate the fact they're alive yeah i hate it i'm genuinely angry at the nature of our 0.68

00:57:08.360 society that this isn't something that we are dealing with and moreover like it's it's not

00:57:16.900 something that is just a random one off right like this this like tomorrow could be another axel

00:57:22.420 rudy kubana well and there'll be more riots rupert lowe was was very tame in what he was saying it's

00:57:28.000 like every week no sometimes it's every day yeah right sometimes it's every single day truly horrific

00:57:35.820 things are happening in this country anyway i guess we'll leave that there so merry christmas guys

00:57:39.960 uh try not to let the bad conscience get you and uh we'll see you soon

00:57:43.960 you

The Podcast of the Lotus Eaters - December 20, 2025

Christmas Podcast ｜ Should We Bring Back the Death Penalty

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