The Podcast of the Lotus Eaters - FREEMIUM： Brokenomics ｜ Sam Melia - Political Prisoner

00:00:00.000 Hello and welcome to Brokonomics. Now, in this episode, I'm delighted to be joined by Sam Melia.

00:00:29.020 Sam, thank you for coming in.

00:00:30.120 Thank you for having me.

00:00:30.760 It's a pleasure and an honour.

00:00:32.320 Yeah, no, well, and we're delighted to have you

00:00:34.560 because your case annoyed me quite a lot when it happened.

00:00:39.520 Probably not as much as it annoyed you.

00:00:41.400 It kind of frustrated me.

00:00:42.820 But nevertheless, it did annoy me quite a lot.

00:00:46.100 And, I mean, we talk about what happened in your case,

00:00:48.200 and you've actually written a book about it,

00:00:50.440 Legal Truth or Guilty, which covers it.

00:00:53.660 And I'll just sort of cite one of the opening pages of that,

00:00:57.660 where you've got an excerpt from the case and it was stickers within the law in isolation range

00:01:03.860 from more or less mainstream quotes about freedom or speech or anti-abortion to generally what would

00:01:11.600 be regarded as extreme but lawful political opinions and the prosecution apparently said

00:01:18.040 it does not matter whether the contents of the stickers is true or not and this is the extraordinary

00:01:23.840 bit because truth is no defense in court yeah pretty staggering especially when we heard it

00:01:30.180 for the first time in court that blew my mind that you couldn't so i mean explain to the audience

00:01:35.900 what you did but as we've already established as far as the as far as the court was concerned

00:01:40.200 everything you did was legal and everything you did was truthful but they convicted you anyway

00:01:44.840 yeah so i was the head of a project called the hundred handers um which was uh basically stickers

00:01:50.720 um and i released them anonymously online um and each one was curated by myself and numbered so

00:01:57.720 they had like a hard copy to refer back to in case they were changed by anyone um and that did really

00:02:03.320 well for about five six years um between 2015 to 2020 and uh like i say they were curated by

00:02:11.160 myself and the intention was always stay within the kind of woolly free speech laws we have in

00:02:16.140 this country but i i walk into swindon and the lower part of town especially is just covered

00:02:21.440 with stickers there's stickers everywhere yeah so that's why i thought when i designed it i was

00:02:24.760 like well that seems like a a legitimate form of expression because you've got communist party

00:02:29.540 posters all over leeds and it's like so if they're getting away with it and it's got you know the

00:02:34.780 actual party the address and everything there so it'd be easy to enforce if they were illegal

00:02:39.060 i thought i guess stickers are fine we can we can get away i mean if they're getting stuck on a nice

00:02:43.760 building in the Cotswolds I think I'd be annoyed but if they're just going over a communist sticker

00:02:47.660 yeah well that's fair grain really yeah which is fine on the back of the book I've got a photo

00:02:53.160 where it's like um I think it's some communist meeting um mark like like Marxism or something

00:02:58.120 like that and uh and over the top I've got a sticker saying like you know demographics I think

00:03:02.540 was it 1966 we won the world cup 2066 we're going to be a minority in our own country so it's like

00:03:08.300 these stickers were going up where stickers normally go up so what kind of thing were on

00:03:13.040 these stickers that well by the end of it there was 300 plus and they ran the gamut of almost any

00:03:17.900 political topic you can think of because i took suggestions from people um and uh because we

00:03:24.020 thought we were going to be defending the nature of the stickers in regard to this charge of um

00:03:28.540 distribution of racially um material meant to incite racial hatred we thought it's like okay

00:03:34.000 well let's see how many of the stickers actually refer to race and we found it was one in ten

00:03:38.100 there's about 13 percent of them actually made any reference to race and that includes

00:03:41.800 diversity of multiculturalism like even kind of more obtuse references so we thought it's like

00:03:46.260 well i mean clearly the project wasn't set up entirely to incite racial hatred because it's

00:03:52.120 like i'm talking about free uh free speech anti-abortion i mean there were stickers that

00:03:57.360 that was just like lift weights stop watching porn you know it's like you know just stuff where

00:04:01.880 it's just throw away things but i mean presumably even the ones that were mentioning race i mean it

00:04:06.160 wasn't like for example kill all nones it wasn't anything like that it was just white lives matter

00:04:10.380 stuff like that yeah yeah and it's like the ones the police highlighted they picked like 14 of them 0.98

00:04:14.280 that they felt were the most egregious with things like labor loves muslim rape gangs and i mean they

00:04:19.080 evidently do yeah and that was right after i think nashar had uh retweeted that post saying white 0.98

00:04:25.080 girls need to shut up for the sake of diversity yes so it was kind of like you know self-evident 0.68

00:04:30.240 um and then uh i mean there were other ones i had that said um beware uh rape gangs operate in this 1.00

00:04:36.620 in this area which you would think would be a public good you know if these things are proven

00:04:40.980 to be in a place the police are proven to be well it is a public good it's not a state good because

00:04:45.740 they've been trying to cover it up for 40 50 years yes yeah yeah it was that and that's what we see

00:04:50.700 is the state appears so fragile that it's like one guy making stickers that kind of poke holes

00:04:55.660 in the lie of multiculturalism yeah is the biggest threat to them and and am i right in thinking that

00:05:00.260 you'd you'd actually sort of walked away from this project by the time the police got involved 0.95

00:05:04.160 Yeah, I'd kind of sunsetted it late 2020, because at the time when I'd started it, there wasn't really any political vehicle or any activist vehicle that I felt fit me.

00:05:14.800 So when Mark Collins started Patriotic Alternative in late 2019, I signed up for that, became the Yorkshire Regional Organiser.

00:05:21.980 And then by late 2020, I was like, I was thinking of stickers and being like, I'm basically just rewording one I've done three years prior.

00:05:29.060 and i was like doesn't really need to do anymore you know we're out there doing banner drops

00:05:32.980 demos all this kind of stuff so it's like i'll just let it lie um and it was six months after

00:05:37.920 that that the arrest came when i was on my way to work so i was really surprised because i thought

00:05:41.680 it's like oh this is going to be related to the demonstration we just did or the banner drop over

00:05:45.520 the m62 or something like that it's about stickers from years ago yeah yeah and when they arrested me

00:05:50.620 as well they said uh what's it they had three charges possession of terrorist material uh

00:05:55.400 international financial fraud or something to do with like financial funding of terrorism

00:06:01.160 and the distribution of material and i thought it's like so two terrorism charges and a sticker

00:06:06.760 yeah yeah i mean they almost certainly did tagged on the terror bits just because it gives them a

00:06:11.000 vast amount more powers to investigate you including going into your bank well but presumably

00:06:15.720 that didn't hold up at all no and they dropped that as soon as we got into questioning like

00:06:19.800 they began on day one yeah yeah day one as soon as they held me in a cell first conversation a few

00:06:24.760 hours took me into the questioning room and they started going down the terrace and through and an

00:06:29.520 officer knocked on the door came in went uh we're actually gonna cut those two um so don't worry

00:06:34.660 about them it's just we were just using that as a tactic to dig up dirt on you yeah we had no

00:06:39.540 intention of ever doing it well also to get the warrant because they've got to go go to a magistrate

00:06:43.760 and justify why they're going to arrest this guy raid his house take every device in his house and

00:06:49.560 So literally the first hour of speaking to you,

00:06:54.020 it turns out that the whole justification for the digging into you 1.00

00:06:57.380 was bullshit. 0.98

00:06:58.960 But it's counter-terrorism who was leading the investigation. 0.99

00:07:02.100 So presumably without any actual terrorism,

00:07:04.560 they couldn't have justified it.

00:07:06.080 Because I was done under a public order offence.

00:07:08.180 It makes you wonder how many fewer people would be stabbed to death,

00:07:12.460 blown up, and the rest of it,

00:07:13.760 if counter-terrorism police was actually focusing on terrorism,

00:07:16.240 rather than providing cover for political hits on people

00:07:21.740 that we just don't agree with.

00:07:23.200 Yeah, because, I mean, with all these terror attacks,

00:07:25.580 they're always like, oh, they're known to authorities. 0.98

00:07:27.120 Yeah, but we were busy doing some of the bullshit. 0.97

00:07:30.000 Rather than me or, you know, like your grandma posting on Facebook 0.99

00:07:33.220 or something like that.

00:07:35.160 I always imagine it like, do you remember that film The Other Guys

00:07:37.720 where they have, like, The Rock and someone else

00:07:40.480 who were, like, the police tag team duo,

00:07:43.100 but they're doing all the really cool cases.

00:07:44.680 and then there's Mark Wahlberg

00:07:46.380 and Will Farrell

00:07:47.980 who are like chasing up

00:07:48.800 parking tickets

00:07:49.460 oh yes

00:07:50.160 I imagine the counter-terrorism

00:07:51.540 officers dealing with my case

00:07:53.040 were in the corner

00:07:54.000 dealing with some stickers

00:07:55.240 while like

00:07:55.760 some of the other guys

00:07:57.520 diffusing a bomb

00:07:58.500 at like seven seconds left

00:07:59.920 and everything

00:08:00.360 you know

00:08:01.200 yeah

00:08:02.020 I mean was the real sin

00:08:03.400 because you mentioned

00:08:04.500 Patriotic Alternative

00:08:05.500 and I think your wife's

00:08:06.260 quite heavily involved in that

00:08:07.320 she's the deputy leader

00:08:08.200 okay

00:08:08.600 that's not actually an organisation

00:08:10.100 I know an awful lot about

00:08:11.360 I know it's kind of out there

00:08:12.460 but I'm not really up to speed

00:08:13.980 with what they're what they're but what what is it because it's probably that isn't it that made

00:08:18.880 them want to go after you do you think no i mean the stickers the investigation for the stickers

00:08:23.160 began back in just after pa started but they didn't know who i was at the time so they wouldn't

00:08:29.120 have known i was associated with patriotic alternative i think the stickers were making

00:08:33.620 a stink because you had politicians talking about them you know they had the news stories with the

00:08:38.180 local councillor kind of standing next to a sticker on a bin looking disappointed with it

00:08:42.140 and obviously we had the summer of BLM

00:08:45.660 and White Lives Matter stickers were going up

00:08:48.260 all over the place as well

00:08:50.180 so I think they were raising the backs of a lot of people

00:08:53.420 My understanding is PA had ambitions to become a political party

00:08:57.980 but has basically just been stopped at every turn

00:09:00.500 Yeah, we looked at it initially

00:09:02.380 because some people involved wanted to be a political party

00:09:05.400 Mark and Laura have never thought

00:09:08.440 that the political route would be viable

00:09:10.060 It was mainly a pressure route then

00:09:11.940 yeah right yeah and then community building as well like that's been the biggest thing obviously

00:09:15.880 mark was involved with the bmp and he said it's like you'd have people come and go based on the

00:09:19.740 election cycle you know you do well you get people in you have a bad turn everyone leaves and it's

00:09:25.900 like he wanted something that persisted throughout and um and that's turned out great obviously i met

00:09:30.640 my wife through pa yes um and then we've had a bunch of people meet their partners have kids

00:09:35.620 right and i've got some lifelong friends who have met through it as well so you don't you don't think

00:09:39.300 it was that connection

00:09:40.040 that made the state

00:09:40.720 want to go after you then?

00:09:41.680 No,

00:09:42.080 I think that was

00:09:42.540 a happy coincidence

00:09:43.120 once they found out

00:09:43.860 who it was.

00:09:44.860 They were like,

00:09:45.420 oh great,

00:09:45.880 you know,

00:09:46.140 two birds,

00:09:46.900 one stone

00:09:47.340 kind of thing.

00:09:48.720 But no,

00:09:49.040 when they began looking

00:09:50.120 for who the head

00:09:51.160 of the 100 Anders was,

00:09:52.460 they had no idea.

00:09:54.140 Oh,

00:09:54.440 I see.

00:09:54.940 Yeah,

00:09:55.160 okay.

00:09:55.680 And it probably was

00:09:57.160 as little as a councillor

00:09:58.080 looking disappointed

00:09:58.920 while pointing at it

00:09:59.800 saying,

00:10:00.140 well,

00:10:00.280 I found an opinion

00:10:01.400 that I don't agree with

00:10:02.540 and therefore,

00:10:03.840 you know,

00:10:04.060 the police must do something.

00:10:05.120 Yeah,

00:10:05.540 yeah.

00:10:05.880 And it's one of these things

00:10:08.360 where it's like

00:10:08.720 the slightest bit of descent to the kind of multicultural system 0.96

00:10:11.340 just triggers that immune response from them 1.00

00:10:14.320 where it's like we've got to shut it down no matter the cost.

00:10:17.000 Yes, so you find yourself arrested and dragged in

00:10:20.720 and then they immediately drop these terrorism charges 0.99

00:10:23.440 just evidencing that that was complete bullshit all along. 0.76

00:10:26.660 What kind of happened from that point? 0.98

00:10:28.600 It was a lot of questioning of basically establishing the facts

00:10:32.040 that I was the head of the 100 Anders,

00:10:34.360 which at the time I was dead to rights on.

00:10:36.420 you know they'd raided the house and my desk is covered in kind of like half design stickers and

00:10:40.920 the printer's there and they've got my computer which has all the mass copies on everything so

00:10:45.080 it's like i was never denying it big counter-terrorism when we burst in is there a bomb

00:10:49.380 no there's no stickers yeah yeah right and uh and you know chances are they were hoping for some

00:10:54.760 something really inflammatory there but you know no weapon nothing like that oh exactly a bomb but

00:11:00.100 nothing like that like that appeared so no commented through i think about four hours of

00:11:03.820 questioning they can do two at a time okay the end of the second hour of questioning did you get

00:11:09.280 a lawyer for this uh i got the uh you know the state appointed just like were they absolutely 0.81

00:11:15.120 shit hot were they were they all over he was pretty good but it was just like just no comment

00:11:18.620 because it's really they don't got anything here okay now so uh but at the end of the first 0.88

00:11:22.540 session of questioning they raised that um we just found out a few weeks prior that

00:11:27.040 laura was pregnant my wife um and uh so they raised that yeah they raised it it's like oh

00:11:34.320 i don't know if you know but uh laura's pregnant and you know with these charges you're looking at

00:11:37.760 10 years so you know have a think about that and they shoved me back in the cell so to ruminate

00:11:43.500 they were clearly hoping they were to break the news to you that she was pregnant to cause you

00:11:48.600 panic and go like i'll say anything just yeah yeah you know what what do you need do you need 0.77

00:11:53.700 me to roll on people scummy tactics i know yeah but thankfully laura had been um calling the station

00:11:58.880 and they they put her through to the cell intercom and uh she basically told me to um

00:12:04.280 in no uncertain terms don't tell them anything and uh f them so uh i was kind of like all right

00:12:10.140 cool i've got her backing and i once i spoke to my duty sister again he was like it's not 10 years

00:12:17.340 it's like you're looking at maximum three to five um you know and that's christ even even three to

00:12:23.460 five years for some stickers assuming they'd have a crime that they could point to as like

00:12:28.740 your stickers incited this you know which would allow them to step up the uh sentencing as it was

00:12:35.080 they couldn't cite a single crime that had been incited for these stickers that were meant to

00:12:38.880 incite so um you know yes and we're able to prove that in court as well like we got the

00:12:43.620 sergeant counterterrorism sergeant up in the stand and said have any crimes actually been

00:12:47.900 incited considering i've been doing this for six years yeah this is my apparently my intent and

00:12:52.420 And there was a year's gap between you finishing it?

00:12:55.160 About six months, yeah.

00:12:56.740 Okay.

00:12:57.120 Yeah.

00:12:57.600 So if there was a crime, I mean, they would have found it?

00:13:01.520 Yeah.

00:13:01.940 Oh, yeah, yeah.

00:13:02.700 Because, I mean, they'd catalogued and mapped every single appearance

00:13:05.300 of the sticker that they could.

00:13:07.260 And we went through that in court for about a day and a half.

00:13:09.700 It's like here in Dorset on a bin is a sticker.

00:13:13.180 It says this.

00:13:14.080 You know, here in Walsall, there's a sticker.

00:13:17.280 But you didn't actually put up any of these stickers?

00:13:18.960 They couldn't prove that I'd put up a single sticker.

00:13:21.060 so they tacked on an additional charge of encouraging racially aggravated criminal damage

00:13:25.600 which my solicitor said don't worry about that because first of all they've got to prove that

00:13:30.600 your biodegradable stickers are criminal damage which like has there's no precedent for that no

00:13:35.640 one's ever been charged for criminal damage for stickers so there's no way they're going to get

00:13:39.040 it um but the jury went guilty on that as well i mean i mean there were counter examples here so

00:13:45.000 that guy who stood up at was it glastonbury and and came out with some really sort of anti-white

00:13:49.960 stuff um you know that that was just passed you had that labor counselor who tended to rally and

00:13:55.480 in front of thousands of people said you know slit their throats in reference to i believe that was

00:14:00.080 in reference to white people uh yeah yeah i think he said the far right or some so you can stand up

00:14:05.780 in a crowd of people and tell them to slit people's throats but if you put a sticker out that says

00:14:10.980 you know the the cites government statistics that saying that the demographic change is taking place

00:14:17.600 that warrants counter-terrorism police being pulled off something

00:14:22.020 that might actually save a life

00:14:23.940 and directed to going after a purely ideological enemy

00:14:27.200 where they can't even demonstrate that a single crime

00:14:30.540 has been inspired by a sticker.

00:14:33.740 Yeah, it's absolutely insane.

00:14:36.220 But that's the luck of the draw with the juries as well. 0.97

00:14:39.700 There were three people who were clearly foreign.

00:14:43.040 There was a Pakistani gentleman.

00:14:44.320 I think one guy was Egyptian, one guy was fresh off the boat.

00:14:46.760 african still with a heavy african accent and then the rest of the jury was like nine white people

00:14:52.560 however that's probably worse because i mean if my taxi rides are anything to go by

00:14:58.160 the average foreigner is more likely to be aware of what's going on than many of the white people

00:15:04.280 who just completely deluded on this stuff yeah and once the prosecution's kind of uh banding about

00:15:09.620 you know the term racist it's like well that just like it's like um mk ultra for white people where

00:15:16.100 they go racist bad person guilty you know and it's like you know completely disregarded it's

00:15:20.640 like we opened this case by saying the stickers were lawful um and saying that it's like just

00:15:25.500 don't worry if if they're true it doesn't matter and it's like and still we're coming away with a

00:15:29.560 guilty verdict and we really thought the jury was kind of going to go down a 50 50 line similar to

00:15:34.680 kind of like a brexit vote or something and how did you feel your case went because i mean it

00:15:39.080 feels like to me you'd have a strong case that you hadn't done anything illegal and you hadn't

00:15:43.740 said anything that was untrue i mean why was that not a slam dunk for your barrister it should have

00:15:49.140 been and it felt like it was because at points they played two excerpts from podcasts that i'd

00:15:54.520 done as the head of the hundred handers where i'm on there saying these stickers are within the law

00:15:58.880 i have no intention to incite racial hatred all this kind of stuff um and even within the sticker

00:16:04.420 zip file itself it had the rules and it was like don't place these anywhere where they might be

00:16:08.660 considered intimidatory or anything like that and they had all my private messages from the last

00:16:13.080 five or six years where I'm explicitly telling friends and compatriots like people have no

00:16:17.180 reason to lie to that it's like yeah this is I've designed them all to stay within the law and you

00:16:21.880 know don't don't don't want to break our laws or anything like that so it seemed like this it would

00:16:28.500 have been a slam dunk and then my barrister's closing statement fantastic where it's basically

00:16:33.800 it's like we've agreed that these are legal this all comes down to whether you think someone has

00:16:40.200 a right to talk about these topics and clearly the jury didn't feel like it i mean at one point

00:16:45.260 the jury came back in to ask a question of the judge and they asked it's like we just taking

00:16:49.600 the 14 stickers the police have highlighted or all 300 plus in a few different languages

00:16:54.560 and um and i thought it's like well if they're asking to take all of them into account surely

00:17:00.180 that would be on my side because the 90 percent of them aren't even relating to race um and there

00:17:06.340 was a guy uh is that heavily what they leaned on the racism is that what they were yeah yeah yeah

00:17:11.540 so you're effectively convicted for for racism for not going along with multiculturalism yeah

00:17:16.700 yeah because it they they operate on this kind of circular logic where it's like it's like right if

00:17:21.200 you talk about these things then you must be right wing however if you're right wing you're

00:17:26.300 racist therefore you're not allowed to talk about these things which serves their thing because

00:17:31.020 it's like well the only way to get out of that is just don't talk about it which is for the most

00:17:35.660 apart what everyone does it's like the witch it's like the witch trials where they're in the river

00:17:39.440 and if you sink and drown then you're good you're innocent yeah if you if you float you need to be 0.89

00:17:44.100 burnt yeah and it's like we're going to put you on trial for being a racist and uh turns out you 0.97

00:17:47.640 talked about rape gangs so uh you know open and shut case i mean talking about the medieval

00:17:52.120 comparison i mean that's one of the things that occurred to me when first looking at your case

00:17:55.380 is that in this country in common law in around the 12th century we had the um the revolution of

00:18:01.260 bringing in mens rea guilty minds but it was always linked to actus rea and the reason that

00:18:07.620 we did that is because before then crimes are strict liability so if you for example if you

00:18:13.180 were attacked by brigand and you kill the brigand in self-defense well that's murder and they don't

00:18:18.760 take it into account so so mens rea was introduced to say okay well is is there was there an intent

00:18:24.240 of a crime here was it just self-defense or anything like that and anything applied with

00:18:28.240 that and here we are about a thousand years later and they've just decided um okay well if you

00:18:33.920 haven't got an actus raya well that's not a problem that's barely an inconvenience we can

00:18:39.480 get him on the second part which is the men's raya it mean that is a complete inversion of

00:18:44.400 the entirety of english law and and and just natural justice that you can you can say okay

00:18:50.280 well no crime has been committed but we think that there might have been a guilty motive and

00:18:55.680 therefore that alone it's it's maddening yeah it's insane and then just the the idea that i

00:19:01.840 could be doing this for six years yes and that it's like it could have a crime could have been

00:19:07.720 committed in the future and it's like i mean am i either i'm either completely incompetent

00:19:13.060 at inciting racial hatred or maybe that was just never my intention you know and it's like but

00:19:18.060 instead they've gone it's like no he really wanted to yeah i have to say i mean i was putting out

00:19:22.340 stickers believe me if i wanted to you know really put some inflammatory stuff on them would have

00:19:26.340 been very easy you know so it's like the fact that i wasn't the fact that i'd explicitly said

00:19:30.900 in private messages and uh through my releases and everything that i wasn't intending to

00:19:35.160 should have been enough but it really was um like we were going into the trial thinking we were

00:19:41.360 going to be defending the content of the stickers and immediately became clear oh no we're going to

00:19:46.160 be defending just my mentality of a as someone ostensibly right wing it's like can can that

00:19:54.980 person engage within legal speech and apparently essentially you're defending is it legal to be

00:20:00.620 right wing yeah yeah that's what is it legal to hold certain thoughts and that's the thing they're

00:20:07.340 they they're quite comfortable with you holding those thoughts however if you act on them if you

00:20:11.860 put them out there if you speak about them you know because that's what we do all day well yeah

00:20:17.040 but it's like things have changed so much since going away i mean i was arguing in court that the

00:20:21.640 rape gangs even existed um and the prosecution was being it's like no you're merely making these up

00:20:27.660 to basically suit your own racist beliefs okay um and then now it's a mainstream talking point

00:20:32.400 exactly and by the time i'd been released from prison you know you had survivors on news night

00:20:35.880 saying yes they do exist and they're predominantly pakistani males and the state saying yeah we've

00:20:41.040 always known they existed um and we're definitely going to do something about it now obviously

00:20:45.100 yeah we're going to do an inquiry in 2029 when labor leaves government yeah scheduled to begin

00:20:49.460 after they leave government i mean the only historical comparison i could found to this

00:20:54.260 after the introduction of mens rea was i think there was a 1351 law that made it um illegal to

00:21:00.580 imagine the death of the king and so yeah really yes yeah so so they introduced mens rea and then

00:21:08.840 and then they thought well actually for this one exception 1351 if you imagine the death of the

00:21:13.060 king that's you that's an instant execution effect and as a result for hundreds of years

00:21:19.080 the reigning monarch never attended a funeral because if you were at a funeral and you saw

00:21:23.880 the king you might briefly imagine the king being dead mass arrest and and then you have to basically

00:21:28.820 wipe out the entire congregation that's insane yeah well yeah and you laugh about it now right

00:21:36.200 because it clearly is insane and so i presumably you know charles can attend a funeral now if he

00:21:44.240 wants to but but but that is the only parallel that i could find in the entire legal system of

00:21:49.420 this which is okay we're going to criminalize somebody simply on what they think and it's

00:21:56.100 clearly absurd and yet we got to that point where a crime is no longer required just simply a thought

00:22:01.360 yeah yeah and um and clearly they feel confident enough to take it to court um i mean they didn't

00:22:07.540 look confident i mean i was taking i was taking a look at the counter-terror officers and everything

00:22:11.800 when they arrived and they looked positively ill um and when we had him up in the dock answering

00:22:16.260 questions um he was a pallid quiet like just for and quite clearly they didn't think they had a

00:22:22.080 strong case however they must just got lucky with that jury um you know you don't know if

00:22:27.120 someone's got a you know a black wife or mixed kids or whatever and it's like and then they feel

00:22:31.760 you know a white person being racist is the worst thing in the world but i mean even the judge when

00:22:36.660 he advised the jury when they're about about to leave he did that you know that voltaire quote 0.95

00:22:41.060 or whatever saying um you know you might not agree with what he says but he defended the death is

00:22:45.420 right to say it and i thought it's like even the judge seems kind of tacitly on side here

00:22:48.940 and it's like i don't see how anyone could uh could find me guilty but then it's like how many

00:22:55.460 white people are equipped to argue with a non-white

00:22:59.340 about a white person's right to freedom of speech. 0.79

00:23:03.060 And it clearly is a massive one-directional bias

00:23:06.820 because, you know, the example of that Labour councillor

00:23:08.840 who said, you know, slit their throats, for example.

00:23:11.380 And then I tried searching for cases that had gone the other way.

00:23:16.620 And I did find one.

00:23:17.820 There was a British guy, black British guy by the name,

00:23:20.360 I think he went by Michael X, a bit of a parody on Malcolm X.

00:23:25.460 and he attended a meeting that said, you know, 1.00

00:23:28.140 white people are monkeys who have no souls and should be killed. 1.00

00:23:31.540 And he was arrested for incitement, 1.00

00:23:34.020 which is the closest comparison that I could find, and jailed.

00:23:38.060 That was in 1967.

00:23:40.540 Really?

00:23:41.340 And that was the last time that it has gone the other way. 0.55

00:23:47.380 Since then, it has purely been white people resisting demographic change

00:23:53.760 that have been jailed or attacked in this way yeah yeah and it will be you know because it's 0.70

00:23:58.780 like that's that's really what the system at the time 67 it's like yeah they were still operating

00:24:04.760 on under the auspices of it's like yeah they're coming in but it's like it's going to be fine

00:24:08.700 we're all going to be equal and if like that and we'll enforce the law the same across the board

00:24:12.040 and that's out the window entirely oh yeah and like you saw with that counselor you know

00:24:16.460 motion to slit his throat and everything like that and it's like well you know he's got a jury

00:24:20.740 of his peers, you know, and they're all going to go, 0.64

00:24:25.680 it's like, no, we're not sending down one of our own.

00:24:27.820 And really it's this whole multicultural thing 1.00

00:24:30.420 just makes a mockery of jurisprudence 1.00

00:24:32.980 because it's like everyone's looking out for themselves 0.89

00:24:36.260 except white people. 0.78

00:24:37.800 Yeah, I mean, that is a problem.

00:24:38.980 I was reading a thread on Twitter last night

00:24:40.840 about an absolutely grievous case. 0.93

00:24:44.240 It was a black murderer and they had him on video 0.98

00:24:46.860 murdering somebody. 0.95

00:24:47.760 um he walked and then there was people sharing other experiences in sort of quote tweets and so 0.85

00:24:53.720 on and this one guy was saying you know i was on a new york jury and um it was a case for a rapist

00:24:58.980 and they found his dna in multiple women they found overwhelming evidence and when he was on the

00:25:05.580 um in the collaborations with the with the rest of the jury members um i think like seven of the

00:25:12.100 twelve were black and they said there's too many black people in yeah they admitted that he was

00:25:16.720 guilty but their argument was there's too many black men in jail and therefore they're not going

00:25:20.380 to convict him so you can't have a jury system in a multiracial society unless everybody in it

00:25:27.380 is signed up to the idea of of justice but that doesn't seem to cross racial lines no no not at

00:25:33.240 all um i think every other racial group is as very strong in group preference yeah for their own and

00:25:40.000 that extends as far as well that that probably explains why they're so paranoid about cases

00:25:45.140 like yours because if if the white majority ever while we're still a majority at least

00:25:50.360 if the white population were to ever adopt the same mentality i mean the whole thing just falls

00:25:56.760 apart and in fact dominic cummings keeps talking about this on his on his sub stack you know he

00:26:01.600 says that you know publicly they're denying that there is uh two-tier justice but within the state

00:26:08.000 itself they're they're perfectly well aware that there is two-tier justice and they're all in

00:26:12.620 absolute panic because they can't admit they made a mistake they can't unwind it their whole power

00:26:17.280 structure rests on this ideology but they know that they're pushing water uphill because the

00:26:23.000 reality is there is two-tier justice and they have no idea what to do because they can't get out of

00:26:27.580 it well i think that's partly why they want to do away with these kind of jury trials is so that

00:26:31.960 they can have a magistrate who's going to be supposedly more objective to deal with these

00:26:37.440 things and they can avoid the embarrassment of you know some you know london counselor literally

00:26:43.000 wishing death on on people getting away with it and then some guy putting out legal stickers and

00:26:47.900 going down for two years yeah it's uh but it's it's yeah it's this thing where they're so far 0.93

00:26:53.820 along this path now where they can't go back it's kind of like a what's it um a trans who's like 0.74

00:27:01.220 they've locked bits off all this kind of stuff and then it's like it's the the bought in at that 0.87

00:27:06.080 point it's this or death there's no growing back the bits no no and i feel like the establishment

00:27:11.340 it feels that that way about this kind of multicultural experiment you know and it's

00:27:14.840 been referred to as such by starma in that speech what at least where it's like this is an experiment

00:27:18.760 that's not going well um and and then they always unwind it afterwards because the logic of the

00:27:23.420 system explains if you can't back down on any of this stuff because it undermines our entire power

00:27:27.880 structure the moment you do and it's existential for them it's like when you think of the level

00:27:31.880 of the crimes and and some of the abhorrent things that have happened to us as a result of this

00:27:36.840 experiment the retribution and to kind of really bring justice to it would be um would be very very

00:27:44.000 harsh so it's like they've got to kind of just head down tunnel through and hopefully come out

00:27:48.100 the other side into the utopia however i have imagined what that world will look like on one

00:27:52.320 or two occasions probably best not go there yeah yeah yes so describe the moment where you know

00:27:57.680 You've got your prosecution presenting a weak case

00:28:01.580 and the counter-terrorism police are looking positively ill.

00:28:06.240 Describe the moment of the verdict and what happened following that.

00:28:10.260 Well, we got called back in and the jury came back

00:28:14.400 with the unanimous guilty on both.

00:28:17.240 And we were just gobsmacked because we thought we presented such a good case.

00:28:22.080 So much of the prosecution's evidence seemed to be counterintuitive to serve us.

00:28:26.220 like i say playing podcasts and you know displaying private messages and things like that and i was

00:28:31.500 like all these things seem to serve our side i don't understand why you've put this in the

00:28:35.680 prosecution case so we were really surprised with that and we went away um and it was a month

00:28:40.500 between that and sentencing and thankfully i was bailed for that i didn't have to be in remand

00:28:45.220 i mean very quickly on the jury stuff i've done jury service a couple of times now

00:28:49.100 and i'll tell you if my experience is anything to go through um of the 12 maybe three or four

00:28:58.000 actually have an opinion one way or the other and all the rest of them are just like why am i having

00:29:04.700 to do this i want to go home i want to get i want to get back to my job and on top of that you're

00:29:08.640 not you're not playing jury on a rape case it's a guy who put out stickers yeah i mean in my case

00:29:13.760 it was actually a stabbing but yeah so some serious so it's like even with that you've got

00:29:18.540 three or four people who actually care and the rest could go yeah and basically as soon as those

00:29:23.240 three or four had had indicated which way they were leaning almost all the rest were like okay

00:29:29.920 we're going that way we're going that way because yeah whatever just just just get me out of here i

00:29:33.800 want to go home yeah yeah yeah and uh and it was a tedious trial because it was done under the

00:29:38.520 terrorism protocol which means that you you can't just skip over any evidence you have to run through

00:29:42.800 everything so it was a really droll trial like just going through absolute minutiae but there

00:29:47.500 was a guy on the jury who i nicknamed shitlib because he just had the physiognomy and archetype

00:29:54.060 you could tell yeah yeah and it's like from the moment he saw me he looked like he hated me and

00:29:58.180 then it's like as the trial went on just more and more just dirty looks my way and i was like this

00:30:02.260 guy absolutely hates my guts to the point where i was like i swear i've worked with this guy before

00:30:07.180 and i ended up calling like my place i'd worked and it's like was thing in last week and they

00:30:12.420 were like oh yeah yeah and i was like all right it's just just a look some people have i guess

00:30:16.240 but he looked a dead ringer for him and yeah and it's like he he seemed really pleased with himself

00:30:21.640 when i got that guilty verdict and i thought it's like you know like you say if the majority of them

00:30:27.000 don't care and then there's you know a few that do it swings it yeah yeah so um because one away

00:30:34.220 one of the interesting things in the book is is because you weren't expecting the verdict you

00:30:38.120 didn't have any shoes with you apart from your fancy court shoes and then you got taken to jail

00:30:43.040 in some very nice brown boots yeah um yeah because uh we we had the pre-sentence report

00:30:49.680 and went through them and f them because i had a job young kids another child on the way um they

00:30:55.040 were like prison isn't going to serve him it's not going to change his mind or anything so there's

00:30:59.380 no reason to send him there um so apart from spite apart from spite and we recommend community

00:31:04.180 service you know 5 000 hours what digging holes or whatever and was that the judge's call to

00:31:10.040 go against that yes yeah so when the judge arrived he seemed like a completely different man

00:31:14.740 from when we'd actually had the trial he had probably got a phone call yeah yeah i think

00:31:19.520 that's probably most likely and he cited um i think some palestinian protesters had been like

00:31:25.540 putting death threats on mps around that time it was when the big london protests were going on

00:31:30.800 and he said um because some of my stickers were you know anti-sionist um and uh he said we need

00:31:38.460 to make an example of political activists and that they can't get away with this kind of stuff

00:31:42.560 um so i'll be recommending two years and like i say i'd packed a bag but considering the pre-sentence

00:31:49.020 report i said don't send prison judge seemed tassily on our side during the trial i thought

00:31:53.820 like it's going to be a suspended sentence so you know two of everything completely forgot a change

00:31:59.100 of shoes and then when he went guilty i was just just completely spiraling i was like i can't i'm

00:32:05.360 going to miss birth of my child first you know first year uh my daughter catherine at the time

00:32:10.700 was two years old so it's like a really kind of important time when they're developing and

00:32:14.080 everything's new and uh and i was just completely flabbergasted i mean that's awful but i mean just

00:32:20.580 just just quickly on the judge's statement there that is a really dangerous sentiment we can't

00:32:26.500 allow this process to be carried out in the political sphere so where do you want it carried

00:32:34.080 out then because if it's if it's not done peacefully and politically are you sure that

00:32:39.820 you want to go down that route but what other tool does the state have because they can't actually

00:32:45.120 address these concerns so they only have kind of the hammer and they just hit everything with the

00:32:50.880 hammer yes and it's so it's like there's no and like dealing with the people who are sent to kind

00:32:56.880 of realign my mindset um they they didn't have any arguments it was it was like yeah i mean that's

00:33:05.060 all true and that is happening however uh if you don't care about it everything seems great and

00:33:11.700 it's like okay but i do care about the rape of well a lot of people don't care until it comes

00:33:16.720 home to them in some way or another yeah but even then i mean you have like the fathers of the

00:33:21.360 like murdered girls who kind of come out and be like i love burritos or whatever and it's like 0.53

00:33:25.900 It's like a Mexican killed your daughter, man. 0.89

00:33:27.940 It's like maybe show a bit of remorse at the very least. 1.00

00:33:32.380 Yeah, I don't think our ancestors would have responded in this way.

00:33:34.740 No, no, no.

00:33:35.540 I think there'd be very different courses of action.

00:33:37.680 But then I suppose that's why they had a country and we don't,

00:33:40.120 which is probably what it comes down to.

00:33:41.900 So do you get then taken straight off to jail?

00:33:45.800 Yeah, yeah.

00:33:46.400 You go downstairs, you check in all your gear,

00:33:49.100 and they lock you in a cell until there's a van

00:33:50.980 or there's enough people to fill up a van.

00:33:52.960 and i went off to uh armley jail which is something i've driven past a thousand times

00:33:58.500 living in leeds and uh and i was like wow i'm actually going into it and it's um it's an old

00:34:03.000 victorian jail with um it's nicknamed the castle because it's got this big castle facade and

00:34:07.980 everything looks really so at least you got to admire the architecture yeah yeah i've never

00:34:11.260 been this close before i'm going through the gate um and uh and yeah it was uh you you're in there 0.85

00:34:17.840 with just so many people with mental illness

00:34:21.120 and being in a remand jail,

00:34:23.680 it's like everyone's in there.

00:34:25.260 So murderers, rapists, 0.62

00:34:27.060 along with like your low-level drug dealers, 0.59

00:34:29.000 people who are in there putting up stickers.

00:34:31.080 You know, it's a real mixed bag.

00:34:32.360 Yes, what was that experience like?

00:34:34.060 Because, I mean, you know, you're reasonably big, lad.

00:34:36.260 I'm sure you can take care of yourself.

00:34:37.380 But crazy people operate on an entirely different set of logic altogether.

00:34:44.240 So, I mean, what's it like going into one of these places

00:34:46.500 where he's like oh bloody hell these people are just they're they're not in control of their own

00:34:51.240 mind it's very scary um and then you you begin to realize it's like most people don't want

00:34:57.720 trouble however like you say there are the ones who are mentally unstable and you're trying to

00:35:04.660 steer clear of them as much as possible but every so often you just get put in with them and um i 0.95

00:35:10.620 mean my first night and for the first few days i was in with this guy who's a spice head

00:35:15.940 and it's like

00:35:17.080 what is a spice head

00:35:18.240 so a spice

00:35:19.000 is a synthetic

00:35:19.700 cannabinoid

00:35:20.380 which it gets

00:35:21.980 into prison

00:35:22.580 because it's very

00:35:23.300 easy to hide

00:35:23.900 because basically

00:35:24.440 it's a liquid

00:35:25.340 but if you soak

00:35:26.840 paper in it

00:35:27.680 and then dry it out

00:35:28.680 you can then smoke

00:35:29.600 the paper

00:35:29.980 and get the same effect

00:35:31.200 right

00:35:32.600 so

00:35:33.160 and I had no idea

00:35:34.600 what spice was

00:35:35.360 but it's like

00:35:35.880 it seemed to produce

00:35:36.800 this kind of like

00:35:37.420 you're either very

00:35:38.140 erratic 1.00

00:35:39.040 or you're a zombie 0.94

00:35:40.440 and it's like

00:35:41.760 it comes

00:35:42.540 which was he

00:35:43.000 swings

00:35:43.460 he'd be both

00:35:44.620 at different times

00:35:45.660 so it's like you're on the top bunk trying to read a book

00:35:47.740 while this guy's like pacing the cell and like

00:35:49.580 just muttering to himself and you're like

00:35:51.120 oh my god and then it's like the next minute

00:35:53.440 you'd just be like like that

00:35:55.380 and you're like 1.00

00:35:55.900 you okay are you dead

00:35:58.580 what's going on 0.96

00:36:00.220 and then you know

00:36:02.260 I shared a cell with a guy who was

00:36:05.140 I can't remember what drug it was but he crushed it up

00:36:07.660 on the table and snorted it

00:36:09.320 could have been anything really

00:36:11.120 he was I mean he was a real jail head

00:36:13.300 he'd been in for 10 years

00:36:14.720 being released on bail and immediately started dealing drugs and jumped out of a window when

00:36:19.260 the police had raided his house and now he was back in jail right um but it's like he just loved

00:36:23.960 jail and he was he he was like the wing dealer but he was just loving life and he was just up 0.98

00:36:29.160 and down all the time and he had some girlfriend who i think was cheating on him because he'd be

00:36:33.360 on the phone with her all the time screaming at her and everything you're just like i'm at the

00:36:36.840 back of this cell thinking it's like it's between me and the door if something goes south and this

00:36:40.880 guy's like he's been doing 10 years of just prison workouts so he's just absolutely henched out i'm

00:36:45.600 just like oh it's the tight quarters to fight in if we if this goes south um yeah so yeah there's

00:36:52.040 a lot and was it there was a guy who'd like joker smiled himself himself yeah yeah but it's like he

00:36:57.900 um so it's like he was covered in scars and he joker smiled himself but not allowed it to heal

00:37:02.620 so he had this like really broad smile and just looked absolutely terrifying and he was just

00:37:08.220 always arguing with the officers and everything and yet eventually he got moved off the wing but

00:37:13.640 i was tasked with cleaning his cell and there was just blood all up the walls on the ceiling and 0.97

00:37:17.660 everything like that and i was like jeez but there are a lot of those people who are mentally ill

00:37:22.580 and their only outlet was basically self-harm so it's like a lot of people cutting up um i think

00:37:28.720 at one point some guy set the cell next to me on fire while he was inside it um you know uh

00:37:35.900 And so there's that kind of scary element, but there's just a low level of violence, which you don't normally see much of.

00:37:43.820 And it's not like American prisons where people are getting raped left, right, and center, and shift, and all this kind of stuff.

00:37:48.660 It's much more based on kind of drug debts and vape debts as well.

00:37:54.500 But what was it, so it was punching and kicking?

00:37:56.980 Yeah, so you'd see people walking around with black eyes, and if there was violence, it wasn't usually done out in the wing.

00:38:01.500 It was basically done quietly in someone's cell.

00:38:03.740 you know they'd get followed in there and beat the hell out of them and then they'd come out

00:38:07.440 and you know what do you mean go if nothing happened has your experience of jail sort of

00:38:11.640 led you to think well there was a better way of doing this because it's starting to sound like

00:38:14.900 to me that closing down the asylums was probably a bad idea it's a terrible idea yes it's like now 1.00

00:38:20.780 we've got all the asylum people stuck in there with a bunch of uh criminals who have no problem 1.00

00:38:26.260 exploiting them taunting them uh just just making their lives living hell um there was one lad 0.96

00:38:33.060 clearly had just a heavy autism um and prison couldn't possibly be a worse environment for him

00:38:39.920 um but uh it's they just all get shoved in together and so many of these people just need

00:38:46.880 sectioning off and i don't know a calm environment at the very least not in there with some of the 0.99

00:38:52.880 most boisterous loud kind of uh people imaginable for whatever reason we decided asylums are bad 0.99

00:38:58.140 but but we're still going we're still going to lock people up we're just going to do it in prison 1.00

00:39:02.040 but that sounds nice

00:39:02.920 and we'll lock them up

00:39:03.600 for short periods

00:39:04.280 release them into the public

00:39:05.620 for them to do something

00:39:06.420 and then lock them back up again

00:39:07.540 and yeah

00:39:08.080 it's pretty crazy

00:39:09.800 but yeah

00:39:10.960 what about

00:39:11.900 what about the staff

00:39:13.940 how are they

00:39:14.800 the staff are good

00:39:15.700 for the most part

00:39:17.320 I think

00:39:17.860 the only criticism

00:39:18.920 I have of the staff

00:39:20.440 is possibly

00:39:20.820 they're too relaxed

00:39:22.220 they allow a lot

00:39:24.340 to go on

00:39:24.960 under their noses

00:39:25.860 basically to keep

00:39:26.620 the boat

00:39:27.120 sailing smoothly

00:39:28.380 so there's a

00:39:29.440 there's the hard power

00:39:30.720 of the officers

00:39:31.420 and then there's the soft power of basically like the winged dealers

00:39:34.120 who run the drug trade.

00:39:36.480 So they allow a certain amount of emergent order to manifest.

00:39:39.900 Yeah, and they'll only start cracking down on drugs

00:39:41.840 if a lot of people start overdosing

00:39:43.960 or there's a lot of violence related to it,

00:39:46.480 like power plays to try and establish a new leader

00:39:49.360 or anything like that.

00:39:50.120 Then they'll crack down on it.

00:39:51.700 But otherwise, the drugs are kind of being pretty openly dealt with.

00:39:56.080 It's pretty clear who's dealing

00:39:57.220 because you've got people coming to people's doors constantly

00:39:59.720 and whispering through the cracks

00:40:00.940 and everything like that

00:40:01.500 so you can tell immediately

00:40:02.760 you know

00:40:03.380 I'm like me

00:40:04.040 as a complete newbie

00:40:05.000 is going like

00:40:05.640 that guy's clearly

00:40:06.640 dealing

00:40:08.100 they're on drugs

00:40:09.000 you know

00:40:09.240 and everything

00:40:09.560 but

00:40:09.880 they don't do anything about it

00:40:11.840 because it's like

00:40:12.320 as long as the wing's running smoothly

00:40:13.880 there's not too much violence

00:40:14.980 then we're doing our jobs

00:40:16.480 which

00:40:17.900 I mean

00:40:18.560 to be fair

00:40:19.040 I don't think you're ever going to

00:40:20.380 stamp it out completely

00:40:21.180 so it's probably

00:40:21.980 you do have to

00:40:22.620 well not unless you're willing

00:40:23.340 to use a lot more force

00:40:24.280 yeah

00:40:24.620 but it's not like

00:40:26.240 Shawshank Redemption

00:40:27.020 where it's like

00:40:27.540 zero tolerance of everything

00:40:28.840 no no no

00:40:30.180 I spoke to a few

00:40:31.580 of the really old guys

00:40:32.960 guys who've been 1.00

00:40:33.480 in and out of prison

00:40:34.060 for decades

00:40:34.820 and they were saying

00:40:35.580 it's like this prison

00:40:36.560 used to run properly

00:40:37.600 you know what I mean

00:40:38.520 we'd be cleaning the floor

00:40:39.280 with a toothbrush

00:40:39.800 and if an officer

00:40:40.920 walked by you

00:40:41.840 would stand up salute

00:40:42.660 and you know

00:40:43.340 call him by the name

00:40:43.980 it's like yeah

00:40:44.480 call him

00:40:45.120 call an officer

00:40:45.660 by the first name 1.00

00:40:46.420 disgusting 0.93

00:40:46.960 it's like you know 0.83

00:40:49.340 the Monty Python sketch

00:40:51.060 of the guy

00:40:51.580 in the Roman dungeon

00:40:52.760 yeah 1.00

00:40:53.240 marvellous people 1.00

00:40:54.460 the Romans 1.00

00:40:54.940 yeah

00:40:55.620 but yeah

00:40:57.940 the officers were relatively good at the job and i think once a lot a few of them found out what i

00:41:04.540 was in for and they would um they talked to me about it and i'd find a lot of them had kind of

00:41:10.200 political sympathies but obviously they can't express them because of the jobs um and uh but

00:41:16.580 i became friendly with a lot of them as well because they appreciated someone who wasn't

00:41:20.420 either on spice or attempting to attack them you know so what proportioning people would you say

00:41:25.320 were either on drugs or mental or both?

00:41:28.840 I mean, how many people would you say were in there

00:41:31.480 that are actually compus mentors, just criminals?

00:41:36.380 I mean, you might be looking about 50-50.

00:41:39.160 Okay.

00:41:39.640 You know?

00:41:41.400 Yeah, probably about 50-50, but then a lot of people,

00:41:45.160 it's like they just knew how to handle the drugs.

00:41:46.900 Like, you'd have people who would be doing spice

00:41:48.920 10 minutes before they came down to the canteen

00:41:50.800 and they'd be falling over in the queue.

00:41:52.980 and it's kind of like you you know lunch is at 12 why why would you get high 10 minutes beforehand

00:41:57.880 um but you'd have a lot of guys who seem compass mentis and then it's like you'd find out it's

00:42:03.880 like oh yeah i smoke weed in my cell on a night and it's like oh right okay so you just quietly

00:42:09.000 do it to yourself okay um so uh but yeah drugs are right um what was the ethnic makeup inside

00:42:15.900 of jail like leeds was pretty mixed bag uh a lot of albanians um the asian contingent was growing

00:42:23.420 on my wing while i was there what do you mean by asian lots of japanese or something yeah yeah

00:42:27.760 huge japanese yakuza huge um yeah they're basically pakistani right um i'm still in that

00:42:34.740 old mindset where it's like we can't say the race yeah it's like um but yeah i've seen like

00:42:41.340 actual Asian people

00:42:42.400 now saying

00:42:42.960 we want the term

00:42:43.740 Oriental back

00:42:44.600 because we're fed up

00:42:45.820 of being lumped

00:42:46.280 in the Pakistanis

00:42:46.460 yeah because Americans

00:42:47.060 get confused don't they

00:42:48.080 it's like it's a big 1.00

00:42:48.640 Chinese rape gang problem 1.00

00:42:49.760 in Britain 1.00

00:42:50.660 but yeah the

00:42:52.900 Pakistani contingent

00:42:53.720 was growing on my wing

00:42:54.960 and I don't know

00:42:55.580 if that's why

00:42:55.980 they moved me from Leeds

00:42:57.120 because of the risk

00:42:58.460 of harm to myself

00:42:59.540 and obviously

00:43:00.220 the bad PR

00:43:00.600 did you interact 1.00

00:43:01.620 with the nones a lot

00:43:03.100 a little bit

00:43:04.500 you know

00:43:05.420 we'd talk about

00:43:06.260 because obviously

00:43:07.220 this was post October 7th

00:43:08.620 so we'd be talking

00:43:09.840 about the Palestine

00:43:10.460 Israel issue

00:43:11.260 with them 0.85

00:43:11.780 you know

00:43:13.420 they're really

00:43:13.760 the only people

00:43:14.260 who cared about it

00:43:15.260 I mean I suppose

00:43:15.840 across 300 stickers

00:43:16.640 you can probably

00:43:17.120 find a touch button

00:43:17.940 issue for pretty much

00:43:18.800 everyone

00:43:19.120 yeah that was

00:43:19.780 one of the benefits

00:43:20.500 was whoever I spoke

00:43:21.560 to if I got a feel

00:43:22.880 for what they cared

00:43:23.940 about I'd be like

00:43:24.660 oh I can talk

00:43:25.340 about this

00:43:25.780 okay

00:43:26.520 did you get anyone

00:43:27.720 in there who was

00:43:28.400 like oh no 0.91

00:43:29.420 you're a racist 1.00

00:43:30.040 I hate you too 1.00

00:43:30.760 or was that just 0.98

00:43:31.660 the people on juries

00:43:32.420 I think I had that

00:43:33.200 conversation two or

00:43:34.160 three times 0.76

00:43:34.760 with non-whites

00:43:35.840 and I basically 0.99

00:43:36.260 explained to them

00:43:37.500 that it's like

00:43:38.620 listen

00:43:39.140 you know

00:43:39.820 this is our

00:43:40.300 homeland

00:43:41.020 and we've been disenfranchised by the state

00:43:43.320 and we've been replaced and we oppose that.

00:43:47.940 And when I translate that to their country of origin,

00:43:50.980 whether it's Nigeria or Pakistan or whatever,

00:43:53.080 it's like, well, can you imagine this was happening? 0.96

00:43:55.260 Well, we wouldn't allow it.

00:43:56.700 And I was like, okay.

00:43:57.660 Yeah, they get it.

00:43:58.420 Imagine you were being arrested if you tried to stop it.

00:44:01.080 Well, what would you do?

00:44:01.880 It's not what would kick off.

00:44:02.720 And it's like, right.

00:44:04.480 And it's like, but you wouldn't agree

00:44:06.520 with being replaced by a different people.

00:44:08.140 No, no, no.

00:44:08.740 But then again, that's why they have homogeneous 0.98

00:44:10.920 countries because they wouldn't 0.99

00:44:12.940 tolerate it. There's something special about the white 1.00

00:44:14.860 population that makes them incredibly tolerant

00:44:16.640 for some reason.

00:44:18.300 The powers that be don't have any interest

00:44:20.680 in replacing Nigerians in Nigeria either.

00:44:23.180 It's like, you know, 0.95

00:44:24.360 it's got to be European. Yeah, if I got offered

00:44:26.680 a boat into Nigeria, I'd be like, nah, I'm right.

00:44:29.900 Yeah, let alone a

00:44:30.920 dinghy. Yes.

00:44:32.440 Stuffed with 70 other Englishmen.

00:44:34.880 So what about the 0.97

00:44:36.760 sort of the compass

00:44:38.720 criminal sort of group

00:44:40.740 I mean, presumably there's people in there for, like, murders and stuff,

00:44:47.140 and then they find out that you're there for a sticker.

00:44:51.000 Yeah, that invited a lot of suspicion that I might be some sort of fed

00:44:53.620 who had been planted in prison to undercover or something like that.

00:44:59.720 Yeah, but surely if you were, you would make up a less laughable example than that.

00:45:05.480 Yeah, but thankfully prison contraband phones are quite common as well,

00:45:09.940 so they're able to google my name and they'll be like oh no he is actually that's crazy so i take

00:45:16.160 it i take it there wasn't a lot of political prisoners there because otherwise they would

00:45:19.300 have encountered it before no no almost none it wasn't until probably the back end when uh it was

00:45:24.800 after the southport attack and the unrest that we saw around the country so were you in for that

00:45:29.360 when that period happened yeah so you got a whole bunch of political prisoners coming in after that

00:45:33.520 yeah so i was in hull prison at the time and obviously i think the whole uh unrest had got

00:45:37.900 a bit out of hand and i met quite a lot of people coming in through that and that kind of ran the

00:45:42.460 gamut to where there was just like the homeless crackhead who had seen it kicking off and put a 1.00

00:45:47.220 bench through a greg's window just for the fun of it and you'd be like all right nice one idiot yes 0.99

00:45:52.460 um to like the family man who's you know got three kids this is the first time he's come out 1.00

00:45:56.640 for any sort of political activity and he's in there shouting at a police officer um you actually

00:46:03.200 met people like that oh yeah yeah because at pa we did the um the political fundraiser um for

00:46:08.340 political prisoners and we managed to hook up a bunch of these guys with families and everything

00:46:12.620 like that with uh about like a thousand pounds each just to try and help help them out a bit

00:46:17.860 but i was in there basically did you have an idea how many political prisoners the uk has at the

00:46:21.700 moment i have no idea no um i mean i i was able to get the contact details obviously those who

00:46:27.520 came through my wing but i presumably got spread amongst the prison but i think i mean that's one

00:46:31.880 wing one prison one part of the country yeah yeah and given the number of arrests for speech and

00:46:36.620 social media posts there must be thousands and thousands of political prisoners spread across

00:46:40.960 the system yeah and the hardest part is actually making contact with them because you've got

00:46:44.580 things like find i think it's called findaprisoner.com or something like that but it takes

00:46:48.460 weeks to months to actually get a return from them to make contact at which point some of them 0.99

00:46:52.780 might even be out but they are spread out enough that it's not it's not like the albanians you 0.69

00:46:56.460 can't form your own gang no no no no and and there is no um like the albanians had a kind of like 0.97

00:47:03.880 prison gang uh they kept themselves and then really the whites you'd have like the gypsies

00:47:10.680 kind of like um travelers or whatever but and you know half them would be related like the 0.92

00:47:15.600 i was on in in hull like they'd have people coming in fresh and be like oh my cousin

00:47:19.940 you know jono you know meet jono family meetup yeah yeah so it's like you'd have people and

00:47:27.520 they've got i think their their respect hierarchy works on age so you'd have people it's like you

00:47:32.400 know they'd be a year older and it's like you've got to listen listen to me and do whatever i say

00:47:37.000 you've got to do but in low iq society that's probably the best metric you can you can apply 0.58

00:47:42.040 yeah yeah but they were sound you know um and uh they didn't have any sticks about gypsies then

00:47:48.440 no no i didn't actually i suppose that's probably another one maybe i did another one 0.86

00:47:52.360 yeah screw gypsies i'm back inside uh but yeah i got along really well with them so does it 0.97

00:47:59.600 does it factionalize in there quite quickly except that except the whites don't tend to 0.97

00:48:04.100 have a faction or do they just form the whites don't tend to have a fat faction yeah and it's

00:48:08.020 not like you're seeing factional faction violence it's more just people stick to their own with

00:48:13.160 whatever language they're speaking so it's not quite like the american films we see no no that's

00:48:18.060 what i was expecting going in was the short rank redemption was you know any any number of tv series

00:48:23.260 or anything like that where it's like i was going to get inducted into the aryan brotherhood as soon

00:48:26.360 as i arrived it turns out we don't have that in uk prisons i could start one then yeah i tried

00:48:31.580 uh it's uh it really wasn't necessary and and and this order system that emerged within it

00:48:39.020 is is that because there was there would be like um a slightly more intelligent criminal who's been

00:48:44.100 there you know somebody who's got a 105 iq who's been in there for a while and he would become like

00:48:48.180 the the wing boss or something is that how it is there's many drugs drugs dictated whoever's

00:48:53.340 dealing is going to be kind of controlling tacitly everyone who's taking from him um and that would

00:49:00.220 allow him to gain you know i mean for the most things it's paltry you'd have your drug dealer

00:49:05.440 would have um say his little table in his cell he'd have a bunch of shower gels unopened untouched

00:49:12.420 but very neatly arrayed and that was basically just him flexing with you know we can't we can't

00:49:18.020 have Lamborghinis so instead I'm gonna have look at all my shower gels that people have given me

00:49:22.760 to get in my good books or whatever it's like it must have filled you with awe the moment you saw

00:49:27.880 that oh yeah it's bizarre like you walk into some cells and they'd be perfectly orderly with all 0.93

00:49:32.220 these kind of like uh so where does that leave you if you're not on drugs and you're not ethnic

00:49:37.080 what you just you just sort of float along to you yeah you can operate outside the system um

00:49:42.380 for the first part i'm you know i'm quite a friendly kind of gregarious guy so i'd get

00:49:46.200 along with people and i i ended up falling in with these kind of soft power hierarchies

00:49:51.260 purely because i was friendly and polite and i wasn't you know fiending and trying to get stuff

00:49:59.060 off them i was just like all right man how you doing all right and so if if if i ever have to

00:50:03.300 go to jail for a podcast that i make which which could well happen let's face it i mean it could

00:50:09.160 i mean if you can go to jail for what you did i mean presumably i can go to jail for for saying

00:50:12.880 this yeah i'm just waiting for that daughter so as long as i stay off drugs and i'm not too snarky

00:50:18.580 which will be which will be a challenge i'll probably be all right then yeah yeah yeah yeah

00:50:23.060 because uh i mean obviously it depends which prison you go into i think the ones down south

00:50:26.120 are a lot rougher but up north yeah because i mean they're a lot more ethically diverse down south so

00:50:31.540 the prisons are you know like if you look at footage on say a news thing on the prisons down

00:50:37.220 south it's it seems almost entirely black whereas whole prison right entirely white you could

00:50:42.700 probably count the black inmates on one hand um so it's i think it varies greatly and there was

00:50:48.460 a guy who went in his name skips uh skips on my hand at the moment but he went into i think was

00:50:54.880 it sheffield jail and he ended up killing himself and he was in from the south port kind of unrest

00:51:00.880 and i've heard sheffield jail is pretty pretty heavily kind of pakistani asian muslim whatever

00:51:07.880 right so it's like what pressures did he face that i didn't um and did he feel very much alone

00:51:14.620 whereas i felt you know like the other prisoners i i talked to they're they're just as disgusted

00:51:20.800 at the demographic replacement despite being heroin dealers they uh they still see an issue

00:51:25.840 with us being replaced i mean when your moral order is being looked down on by heroin dealers

00:51:30.400 Yeah, yeah.

00:51:30.920 Yeah, you've got a problem.

00:51:32.140 So we also talk about the real criminals as well.

00:51:36.420 The people who work for the state.

00:51:38.800 Because weren't you subjected to struggle sessions within there?

00:51:41.600 Yeah, because despite not being actually charged with a terrorism offence,

00:51:45.800 my public order offence was described as terrorism adjacent,

00:51:49.720 which allowed me to be covered by the National Security Division upon release.

00:51:54.620 So I got a probation officer from the National Security Division.

00:51:57.120 But the adjacent bit being that they used it as an excuse to investigate you,

00:52:01.760 but that holds up as a reason to punish you further in jail.

00:52:06.240 Yeah, and basically it's like you were putting out these stickers.

00:52:09.420 Clearly the only conclusion to that is eventually you will engage in violent terrorism,

00:52:14.880 you know, which is nonsense.

00:52:17.500 But it's such as a highly tenuous logic, but okay.

00:52:21.820 But while in prison I had tact designation,

00:52:24.220 which is someone who's who's in prison for something under the terrorism act you have

00:52:28.660 tax designate designation what does that sound like terrorism terrorism act oh yeah yeah but

00:52:34.120 it's like so i was being treated as a terrorism prisoner despite not actually having been charged

00:52:39.480 with terrorism but presumably that means you sit down with somebody who actually knows something

00:52:43.260 about terrorism and is then having to wedge this into stickers yeah and this was the confusing 0.62

00:52:48.620 thing because i had the probation guy and he was just complete boomer shit lib um completely

00:52:54.380 opposed to me on it so he's effectively the political officer he's he's the commissar in

00:52:58.580 the jail yeah uh no he was once i'd released from jail during jail they didn't have anyone

00:53:04.640 you know there was just do your time once i was out on probation that's when they have all these

00:53:10.620 restrictions on you so i i couldn't talk to any of my friends so you weren't doing struggle sessions

00:53:15.520 in jail then you weren't sat down with a probation officer or any sort of political officer to try

00:53:19.900 and change your thinking they didn't know i think you pretty much got left alone while you in jail

00:53:23.120 yeah i think i had one meeting right at the start with a probation a female probation officer but

00:53:27.800 it's just yeah you know what do you mean black people can't be british and i'm like well i

00:53:32.580 understand british's ethnicity and it's like by definition they they can't be ethnically british 0.67

00:53:37.760 they can be you know passport british but they can't be ethnically british and they're just you

00:53:41.620 that would just fly completely over the head like what do you mean um you know or when i'd say

00:53:47.280 i did a segment not so long ago where it was when it was when it looked like they were ramping up

00:53:53.980 the ukraine war to the point where they're actually going to start conscriptions and a

00:53:57.300 whole bunch of black content creators went around interviewing black kids in the street saying would

00:54:01.320 you be happy to be constricted to fight in in ukraine and pretty much every single one of them 0.85

00:54:06.240 said no this isn't my country i'm not british exactly british british when it comes to claiming

00:54:10.280 benefits but yes it's like whoa fight for the country not that obviously so so you you get out

00:54:17.560 and then what what happens on true is that when the political commissars when it all starts yeah

00:54:22.480 because they've got you on license at that point and they they can do with you what they want and

00:54:26.600 i think i had about 30 30 or so license conditions but no internet can't talk to anyone um how does

00:54:33.260 that work in a household where there's more than one person well this is the thing because they

00:54:37.360 said you can't talk to anyone in pa and i said but my wife is the deputy leader and they're like

00:54:41.580 we're giving you a carve out for your wife and i was like okay well what if what if somebody comes

00:54:46.420 to the house to meet her well they said it's like we're not going to be there but you'd you'd have

00:54:51.920 to leave the house and i was like okay i will definitely leave the house you know we'd have

00:54:57.720 people around or whatever you know it's your bloody house i mean yeah exactly and uh and you

00:55:02.720 know my wife's the deputy leader so i'm going to be aware of the goings-on within the organization

00:55:06.520 and things like that and um so yeah i mean i didn't attend any of the official events where

00:55:11.940 i might be in pictures however you know i still spoke to people and things like that when you say

00:55:16.800 30 conditions i mean so so that was one but i mean what kind of stuff goes into these conditions

00:55:21.080 uh well i mean that they had one where if i start any new relationship i have to inform

00:55:25.660 counterterrorism and you might think it's like oh but you're married you know no i mean like if i go

00:55:30.120 to the playground and start talking to one of the dads there and we go oh we should have a play date

00:55:34.160 with the kids um i have to inform counterterrorism with his name and date date of birth which

00:55:39.200 obviously makes for an uncomfortable first conversation with someone when you ask for

00:55:42.080 those kind of things so uh it's right i mean you could avoid that to an extent by being aloof but

00:55:48.500 what if somebody just comes over and starts talking to you you have to sort of edge away

00:55:51.900 or you you eventually have to have the conversation if if you continue this friendly chat in a

00:55:57.220 playground i'm going to need to put counterterrorism police on you yeah yeah so it's like generally i

00:56:03.120 just wouldn't tell them if i had one of these friendly chats you know whether they're at the

00:56:06.660 play gym or whatever it's like just wouldn't tell them um and uh you know i'd have friends like

00:56:11.760 people who weren't involved politically um but you know like old school friends they'd be like

00:56:15.900 oh can i talk to you and i'd be like um it's like if you call this number my phone number

00:56:20.360 they will see the number and demand that i provide name and date date of birth for you

00:56:25.220 so it's like if you want to talk to me you can call laura and she'll pass the phone to me but

00:56:29.040 And it's like, no one wants to give their details to counter-terrorism

00:56:34.200 because it's like, well, I don't know what you're going to do with it.

00:56:36.240 I don't know if I posted something on Facebook five years ago

00:56:39.080 that you're going to pull me up on, you know?

00:56:40.880 So it really isolated me from the time that I was out.

00:56:44.760 And the idea being what you were, your sentence was two years

00:56:48.600 and you served 10 months.

00:56:50.780 Do you think the time that you served was partly because

00:56:54.200 I don't think many people knew who you were when you went in.

00:56:57.220 a lot i mean i mean afterwards i i could just say your name and people instantly knew who i was

00:57:02.500 talking about so do you think your profile being raised while you were in was a factor in serving

00:57:07.600 less time no it's the 40 thing so start prison overcrowding he made everyone do 40 if it wasn't

00:57:15.060 for like violent crime or terrorism um and i thought like am i gonna get it and thankfully

00:57:19.880 i did because it got me out on the 17th of december so i was there just in time for christmas

00:57:23.980 um but uh is this also why you you didn't launch any appeals because the process would have

00:57:30.600 basically meant you stayed in longer the process wouldn't have even gone through like it takes so

00:57:34.660 long for an appeal that by the time you would have been set in jail that whole time if you if

00:57:39.260 you'd launched an appeal oh no you would have been still being released but i presume it would

00:57:42.780 have just i don't know if the appeal would have carried on or if they take the paperwork and go

00:57:46.340 like he's out now drop it or what but it's like there would have been no point appealing it

00:57:50.500 while inside because you're looking at a year to turn around and i was like well i'm gonna be out

00:57:55.320 in a year so it's like they kind of lock you into the the guilty trial that's the guilty verdict

00:58:01.720 yeah yeah and also when you go through an appeal process you have to show some sort of mistrial

00:58:07.800 and it's like clearly they're taking great pains to do everything by the book and you can't appeal

00:58:14.100 because you don't like the way the jury went you know i'd have to show some sort of like they

00:58:18.760 introduced evidence that didn't exist or something like that and they hadn't done any of that so um

00:58:23.940 or it's like it's an un a disproportionate sentence however you know the sentence falls

00:58:30.300 within the sentencing guidelines so he hasn't gone like you know you do in 10 years when really the

00:58:35.780 maximum and then when it goes the other way when you got labor counselors saying go and slit their

00:58:40.060 throats he doesn't appeal because he's quite happy with it so from the system's point of view well

00:58:44.940 well, that guy, we simply didn't do anything.

00:58:47.260 And this guy, well, we followed our own procedures

00:58:49.460 and therefore it's all fine.

00:58:50.620 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:58:51.680 Right, yeah.

00:58:53.140 So yes, you're out.

00:58:54.660 And what happens with these struggle sessions?

00:58:56.420 Because you talk about it quite a lot in the book.

00:58:58.020 And I mean, it was just so extraordinary.

00:59:00.700 Yeah, because with a probation guy,

00:59:04.140 arguing with him, I mean, for one, there's a power dynamic.

00:59:07.200 He's in complete control and I can't...

00:59:09.880 I bet he loved that.

00:59:11.360 Loved it.

00:59:11.860 you could tell that he was just really reveling in arguing with me and just having me just have

00:59:16.820 there is a certain type of personality who in no natural system would they ever have any power

00:59:24.640 over anybody else the spiteful mutant type give them a position where they've got a little bit

00:59:30.240 of power and i i mean it's it's a it's a quaint example compared to what you experienced but i

00:59:35.400 noticed this over the

00:59:37.040 COVID period all of a

00:59:38.800 sudden little Karen's

00:59:41.040 popped up all over the 0.75

00:59:42.560 place and they were

00:59:43.220 reveling in being able

00:59:44.500 to go around and tell

00:59:45.280 people off yeah yeah

00:59:46.500 and it's that kind of

00:59:47.540 and presumably this guy

00:59:48.840 was one of those oh I

00:59:49.640 bet he loved the COVID

00:59:50.660 period yeah probably

00:59:52.540 true probably triple

00:59:53.460 master so he he's he's

00:59:56.120 an out-and-out

00:59:56.680 ideological enemies and

00:59:57.980 he has complete power

00:59:59.020 over you for what an

01:00:00.020 hour a week or

01:00:00.660 something usually about

01:00:01.900 two hours a week yeah

01:00:03.460 I mean that I think he

01:00:05.100 introduce himself via email while i was in prison um and uh you get emails in prison uh yeah they uh

01:00:11.220 you can email a prisoner okay and so the probation service would use that to get in contact well do

01:00:15.760 they sit you down in front of a pc every so often or do they print it out or something when you're

01:00:18.800 inside uh they print it out and then they deliver it along with regular mail oh with with a little

01:00:23.580 reply sheet or anything but actually my first interaction with him was uh they just took me

01:00:27.640 down to the interview rooms and uh and he shook my hand and said it's like oh i'm your probation

01:00:32.800 officer um i'm not like your regular probation officers and i was like oh right is he implying

01:00:38.100 that he's a you know a little bit right wing or something like that and it's like and that

01:00:41.440 proceeded with 90 minutes of just absolute like vitriolic back and forth between the two of us

01:00:47.080 um on on politics and race and immigration and all this kind of thing so hang on he's got a job 0.85

01:00:53.960 where a shit lib basically just gets to tell off people for not agreeing with him yeah yeah and 0.98

01:01:01.120 unlike shit libs on youtube who we just don't watch you have to engage you have to engage yeah 0.97

01:01:06.760 because once i was out i was i tried different tactics i'd be like right i'm just gonna agree 0.98

01:01:11.440 with him on everything you know to shut him down you know just to take the piss really

01:01:15.620 and he'd be like no this is malicious compliance and if you continue i'll send you back i was like

01:01:20.660 right okay maybe you can't agree with him and you can't disagree no so then i tried i'll just

01:01:25.120 disengage and anything he brings up i was like yeah and just give him nothing and he'd be like

01:01:31.020 no this again is uh this is you're not engaging one one of your restrictions is you have to engage

01:01:36.720 with the probation service so you not answering my questions or just not giving me you know more

01:01:41.780 than one word answers you're not obeying your restrictions you'll go back inside for the 14

01:01:45.920 months so that right so you were being threatened with an additional 14 months jail if you didn't

01:01:53.280 have a struggle session if you didn't argue with the shitlib yeah yeah so in the end it just became

01:01:59.520 i would not disassociate but try not to get too emotionally invested in the argument we're having

01:02:06.560 um and uh the arguments he was presenting were just it was either bad faith argumentation kind

01:02:14.560 of tactical nihilism where it's like you know we'd be talking about he didn't believe that

01:02:19.720 white people or british people had had a homeland here in england wales scotland whatever

01:02:24.100 and i'd be like it's like okay well what about indians you know are they indigenous to india

01:02:29.520 and he'd be like nope i'd be like maori to new zealand nope japanese to japan nope i was like

01:02:34.600 so you don't believe there's any indigenous people on earth and he's like no and i was like

01:02:38.700 so so you also don't see a problem with you know you could just have someone move in somewhere and 0.98

01:02:43.140 just wipe them out because they're not indigenous they've got no right to that land you can just

01:02:46.460 take it and he'd be like nope and it's like i know you don't believe this it's like why are you 0.99

01:02:52.680 saying this it's not even internally consistent no it's not it's mad because by the first part

01:02:57.580 of his statement he's just justified the british raj yeah well and also the um the the conquest of

01:03:03.880 the sort of native americans of america in america yeah and he's he'd previously said he was like

01:03:09.200 pro-palestinian and didn't agree with what israel was doing i was like well i mean what right do

01:03:13.420 the palestinians have to oppose it israel can just go in there and just take the land you know no

01:03:17.320 one's got a homeland you know you can just take things you know it's like it's like i said it's

01:03:21.440 completely inconsistent but this is that was the arguments with him where it's like if you started

01:03:26.640 to get ahead if you won the on a point he would then just go back to it's like i either didn't

01:03:32.620 care about it or here's some nonsense and then you can't argue with the nonsense so it's like

01:03:37.500 a lot of the times i'd be laughing at him because of the kind of the nazis get himself twisted is

01:03:43.300 there such things so it's malicious in compliance or something if you don't argue or if you agree

01:03:48.800 with him

01:03:49.240 if I agree with him

01:03:50.060 can you laugh at him

01:03:50.860 are you allowed to do that

01:03:51.640 yes

01:03:52.080 I did that

01:03:53.440 a few times

01:03:54.320 where I'd be like

01:03:55.000 come on then

01:03:55.480 what are we doing

01:03:56.480 and he'd be like

01:03:57.320 did he

01:03:58.940 could you see the cogs

01:04:00.440 turning in his head

01:04:01.480 I mean

01:04:01.680 did you ever

01:04:02.520 did he ever do that

01:04:03.860 sort of blue screen thing

01:04:05.160 that liberals sometimes do

01:04:06.380 where they freeze up

01:04:07.200 it's like 1.00

01:04:07.540 oh shit 1.00

01:04:07.960 he's used logic 0.99

01:04:09.840 in a way

01:04:10.360 that is undeniable

01:04:11.640 it'd always be very quick

01:04:13.220 to move on

01:04:13.820 to stuff

01:04:14.520 so you'd know

01:04:15.560 if you got a good win in

01:04:16.580 that he couldn't

01:04:17.280 kind of back away from

01:04:18.120 because it'd be like

01:04:18.680 but anyway enough about that we'll just talk about this and it's like okay got that one okay

01:04:22.900 points there you know um but it's like you try and gaslight like you like you bring up something

01:04:28.960 he said like last week and it's like and i know you said it because i wrote it down in in that

01:04:32.700 diary yeah right after we left so i know you you said it's like i didn't say that i wouldn't say

01:04:37.800 that i was like i know you did and he's like no i wouldn't it's like well i don't want to show you

01:04:43.080 the books you might take it from me however it's like but i know you did and it's like i'm gonna

01:04:48.560 put it out there so everyone's gonna see you i mean on one hand this kind of sounds if you could

01:04:53.280 if you could do it once or twice just for fun i think i'd do that i think i'd have an argument

01:04:57.000 with this guy yeah because it's um i mean we do it on twitter facebook and everything you know

01:05:01.620 you'll you'll delve in and exchange a couple of blows and go like oh owned him you know good but

01:05:06.880 then it's like when when that argument when your freedom rests upon it all of a sudden it becomes

01:05:12.680 a bit grim and when you've been doing it weekly for 14 months um and then on top of that you've

01:05:18.680 got your weekly prevent meetings and counterterrorism meetings um it's like it all just

01:05:24.020 becomes a bit tiring so you were doing this struggle session but what were the other ones

01:05:28.260 you mentioned prevent and counterterrorism so how many meetings a week were you attending

01:05:31.680 uh minimum three um occasionally more because uh i also stayed at a hostel for seven months

01:05:36.980 um where uh so i'd have a weekly meeting with my key worker as well um where we'd just look at

01:05:42.320 each other and she'd go it's like do you need any help with drugs or alcohol issues and i'd be like

01:05:46.220 no and she'd be like okay uh we haven't got any issues with you so how many of those meetings do

01:05:50.820 you uh those are weekly as well for how long uh normally most people uh go into a hostel for

01:05:57.440 maximum two months before they get you out into the general public uh for me because i was being

01:06:02.540 handled by the national security division they were allowed up to 12 months so i stayed in the

01:06:07.020 hostel for seven months before i was allowed to return home and actually so they would have known

01:06:11.000 and the jail

01:06:12.520 would have known 0.65

01:06:12.860 as well that you

01:06:13.400 weren't on drugs

01:06:14.000 yeah

01:06:14.920 the people who

01:06:16.000 actually were

01:06:16.700 to help you

01:06:17.240 with the drugs

01:06:17.820 but the hostel

01:06:18.780 is really there

01:06:19.480 to acclimatise you

01:06:20.420 back to civilian life

01:06:21.740 so you've got people

01:06:22.340 you've only been in

01:06:22.820 for 10 months

01:06:23.360 exactly

01:06:24.180 so I was in there

01:06:25.680 with people who've

01:06:26.300 been away for 20 years

01:06:27.260 and they were

01:06:27.640 coming out

01:06:28.620 like they'd never

01:06:29.280 seen a smartphone

01:06:29.840 before

01:06:30.260 and they were like

01:06:31.320 it's like the screen's

01:06:31.960 really dark

01:06:32.340 how do you

01:06:32.780 how do you unlock it

01:06:34.000 and I'd be like

01:06:34.580 just flick that up

01:06:35.780 and he's like

01:06:36.200 oh right okay

01:06:36.920 then it's like

01:06:38.020 you know

01:06:38.580 but it's like

01:06:39.220 but they'd be out

01:06:40.080 in two months

01:06:40.920 um whereas me you know a guy who's only been away for 10 you know and it's so they really were

01:06:47.160 turning every screw to inconvenience you to the maximum possible extent yeah because i mean the

01:06:51.940 even the return home took like a kind of two-month period of like right you're going to do a few

01:06:56.420 weeks where you're going to do one night at home and a few weeks of two nights at home and it's

01:07:00.260 like i'm spending every day at home with the kids it's not like i'm going to be like whoa if i'm if

01:07:05.860 i'm home past seven i might just flip out you know and do crime you know um so it's like yeah

01:07:12.080 they they denied me just being able to stay overnight because i'd have a um from 7 p.m till

01:07:17.300 6 a.m curfew and then a midday check-in where i had to arrive at the hot hostel sign my name and

01:07:22.120 then i could leave again so basically i couldn't have a day out with the kids but at 6 a.m i'd be

01:07:27.680 out be out the door back home for 6 20 be there for the kids wait waking up spend a few hours with

01:07:33.540 them check in come back for the kids and then go home just before they go to bed and that continued

01:07:38.500 for months and it's just completely pointless to where the hostel staff were like i mean why

01:07:44.240 why are you here for this long like there's there's absolutely no reason for you to be here

01:07:48.920 because the state truly hates you yeah and they wanted to do everything possible and presumably

01:07:54.880 if i don't know if if on your way back to the hostel there was something that happened you know

01:08:00.940 car crash or whatever it was that they would you would then get done for not complying and turning

01:08:06.900 up yeah yeah so it's like there were a few times where it was um it was touch and go you know i

01:08:12.280 think i think at one time i think i had a blown out tire and i arrived like three to three minutes

01:08:16.740 seven and i was just like so risky you know and and if you and if you broke any of the conditions

01:08:24.180 that would be the excuse they needed and because of the severity of my crime like for most people

01:08:29.880 say if you were caught doing drugs in the hostel you'd go back to prison for seven days and then

01:08:34.780 you'd come back so I'd see him leave I'd see him come back whereas for the severity of my crime

01:08:40.060 and the nature of my crime if I was to go back I'd do the full term so it could have been up to 14

01:08:44.820 months or you know I mean they had deliberately designed a system that just through random

01:08:51.080 happenstance maximized the possibility of you turning up two minutes late or something like

01:08:57.300 that and then they had all the excuse they needed to jesus yeah yeah so there was a number of times

01:09:04.600 throughout the 14 months where we got really close and i mean one of them was um eventually

01:09:11.100 i was allowed a smartphone for work um in like july or something like that but i think in november

01:09:16.360 uh i had some banking trouble and laura had shown me her phone with the you know the customer service

01:09:23.880 number on for like NatWest or whoever it was and showing it to me and at the time my daughter had

01:09:29.140 taken my phone and had it on camera and taken a photo of me it's my legs and then Laura showed

01:09:34.020 me the phone and it was on my phone and I thought it's like in counterterrorism every month did a

01:09:39.000 forensic digital forensic breakdown of my phone everything any phone call I'd made any pictures

01:09:45.100 website and again this is extraordinary the the amount of stabbings murders and terrorism we get

01:09:50.140 in this country

01:09:50.560 and counter-terrorism

01:09:51.480 police are spending

01:09:52.140 I mean this must have been

01:09:54.080 two or three people's

01:09:55.300 one of their key assignments

01:09:57.560 was just

01:09:58.520 working on you

01:09:59.900 yeah because I'd have

01:10:01.340 counter-terrorism officers

01:10:02.240 show up wherever I was working

01:10:03.620 you know whether it was

01:10:04.200 Halifax, Leeds

01:10:05.020 wherever they'd

01:10:06.680 pop over in the car

01:10:07.800 and just be like

01:10:08.340 alright do I have a chat

01:10:09.020 for half an hour

01:10:10.200 and then I'd go back

01:10:11.600 to work

01:10:12.260 I mean an enormous

01:10:13.320 amount of resources

01:10:14.220 are being spent

01:10:14.960 on somebody who did

01:10:16.320 some stickers that were legal

01:10:17.300 like I say

01:10:17.780 this picture

01:10:18.380 that my daughter had taken

01:10:19.680 you know they had i think they were deliberating for two weeks whether to send me back inside

01:10:24.120 over the christmas period you know for the remaining three months of my sentence

01:10:27.120 and i was just thinking it's like but their excuse it's like well laura was showing you her phone

01:10:32.200 and you know i mean you could have been doing anything with that phone you could have been

01:10:35.560 calling mark collett you know you could have been doing anything because my restrictions were if i

01:10:41.060 was to use the internet i had to use my phone but if i was at a bus station and i went oh do you

01:10:47.280 have the time and you went and looked at your your phone that would that would be a breach

01:10:50.600 because you've used your i've asked you to use your phone you know or if i was like oh do you

01:10:56.280 know what time time the bus is i'll just look it up oh don't do that please you know it's like

01:11:00.480 like that's the level of which however they're not you know we're not in the panopticon so they

01:11:05.560 couldn't actually know i'd have to basically tell them if i'd done i don't think even the soviets

01:11:09.440 did this level of panopticon yeah but it's you know it's a modern digital era so they're able to

01:11:15.720 see everything that you're doing um for the most part i'm even more upset by this now than i thought

01:11:21.040 i was i mean as if the original conviction wasn't bad enough this is just constant harassment

01:11:27.520 designed in such a way as to maximize the possibility that they could send you to jail

01:11:32.520 for 14 months yeah yeah and like i say i had the prevent officer and he was from the desistance

01:11:37.120 and disengagement program which is normally reserved for people who have actually done

01:11:41.020 terrorism and his job is to basically convince them that you know pipe bomb in your local holy

01:11:45.020 site or whatever is a bad idea um and his whole job is to do that yeah actual terrorists yeah and

01:11:51.160 he admitted that and he's busy because we keep letting out so many terrorists and he admitted

01:11:55.700 that i'm the only person on his role who went actually being done for terrorism um everyone

01:11:59.860 else he talked to was actually so um but they'd kind of brought him in to basically look for a

01:12:06.160 kind of like yes he's a violent extremist um assessment however because he actually deals

01:12:11.260 with violent extremists he would talk about my politics and all this kind of stuff completely

01:12:15.340 honest with him and he'd be like you're not on a path to violent extremism you're not engaging in

01:12:20.140 it right now you're not that bad however um the first guy who came with that diagnosis of he's

01:12:28.040 not that bad uh they swapped him out because they wanted someone to actually come up with that

01:12:31.960 diagnosis so instead they got this uh i think it was a mixed mixed race guy from birmingham i think

01:12:36.340 half half asian um and uh and i guess they thought he might be more more uh more likely to bring that

01:12:43.980 diagnosis but again you know we went through all my politics and everything like that and he found

01:12:49.480 no issues um so the prevent guys were actually pretty good um and they actually shared quite a

01:12:55.420 lot of information with me including like the fact that they'd been put on to i think there was a

01:12:59.640 young boy putting out reform leaflets in his high school and the home office had sent prevent to him

01:13:04.420 the prevent guy

01:13:05.620 would come back

01:13:06.060 and be like

01:13:06.540 yeah there's nothing here

01:13:07.560 it's a legal political party

01:13:08.680 he's not talking about

01:13:09.780 more extreme things

01:13:10.600 he's fine

01:13:11.100 and the home office

01:13:11.700 was like no

01:13:12.060 keep him on your books

01:13:13.840 if you want to keep tabs

01:13:14.500 on him

01:13:15.120 and it's like right

01:13:16.240 okay so this is the kind

01:13:17.280 of state we're running in now

01:13:18.340 where Nigel Farage's party

01:13:20.140 is you know

01:13:21.220 extremist

01:13:21.960 it's madness

01:13:22.880 he's a bit of a lefty

01:13:25.480 but I wouldn't call him

01:13:26.660 an extreme left

01:13:27.280 it's like

01:13:29.400 come on

01:13:30.060 what are we doing

01:13:31.060 but I mean

01:13:32.540 everything you're describing

01:13:33.420 is a state

01:13:34.120 that has truly failed

01:13:35.640 I mean it's completely

01:13:37.700 lost its way

01:13:38.580 it's arresting people

01:13:40.320 and jailing people

01:13:41.320 for things that

01:13:42.880 they have decided

01:13:44.260 are in their head

01:13:45.060 absent of any crime

01:13:46.480 and then they're using

01:13:47.320 every aspect of the state

01:13:49.420 to try and trip you up

01:13:51.400 yeah

01:13:51.700 yeah

01:13:52.440 and it's

01:13:53.200 what you're describing

01:13:54.480 is just pure spite

01:13:56.080 and ideological zeal

01:13:57.660 yeah because that's

01:13:58.680 that's really

01:13:59.300 that's all that's propping

01:13:59.980 this system up

01:14:00.840 at this point

01:14:01.240 is ideology

01:14:02.200 because the actual reality

01:14:03.560 of it on the ground is complete failure pain misery suffering and it's like the only thing

01:14:10.420 that's keeping them going is that ideology where it's like eventually if we can just get rid of you

01:14:14.740 people pointing out at the problems then there won't be problems nobody notices exactly yeah

01:14:21.080 and all the rapes murders and terrorism can carry on unabated yeah and it's like i thought

01:14:26.320 emblematic of that was during the trial the prosecution um because we were talking about

01:14:31.340 the rape gangs and you know to prove that they existed i had the testimony of of some of the

01:14:36.600 white girls and some of the horrendous stuff they went through and while we were going through it

01:14:40.560 i got quite upset because you're hearing about girls raped by like 50 men strung out on drugs

01:14:45.520 and everything and um and the prosecution asked it's like well um are you related to them do you

01:14:51.420 know them i was like oh no and i thought and he was like all right and moved on i thought that's

01:14:57.400 a strange question to ask and it wasn't why would you care if you're if you don't know these people

01:15:02.760 well it wasn't until his closing statement that i realized that's what he was getting at because it

01:15:07.140 just seemed completely out of my realm of understanding that you could come up with that

01:15:11.440 but during his closing statement he said oh you saw him got upset and clearly these were

01:15:16.260 crocodile tears to justify his own racism because it's like how could someone be this

01:15:20.640 emotionally caught up in somebody doesn't know or isn't related to and i think that's an emblematic

01:15:25.680 the kind of psychopathy and the next level of apathy that is required to freely engage in this

01:15:32.800 system and be a part of it it's such a left-wing point of view yeah they cannot imagine the idea

01:15:39.040 of empathy for people that you're not directly connected to but at the same time they can

01:15:44.100 because they're gonna it's like you know your dinghy boat person it really it seems to be it's 0.51

01:15:48.160 like white people they can't empathize with with you know a brown person on the other side of the

01:15:53.000 world they'll you know shed tears and rend clothes and but it's like for our people for something 0.87

01:15:59.460 happening on our doorstep if it flies in the face of multiculturalism their ideology they just don't

01:16:07.760 care where's that meme of the brain scan that you know they it's it's the further away from

01:16:12.800 them and theirs the more they care it's a completely inverted worldview yeah yeah um so

01:16:19.020 I mean, I suspect that they don't go after people like us

01:16:24.540 who are basically saying the same thing

01:16:26.080 because we've got a higher profile

01:16:27.660 and it would cause things to...

01:16:30.660 I mean, let's say they arrested Karl or something.

01:16:34.040 You know, you'd have a huge number of influential voices

01:16:37.540 from the American right or something

01:16:38.700 would be on it straight away.

01:16:39.840 I mean, it would be sort of across the spectrum.

01:16:43.320 But I think the EU, they probably thought

01:16:44.940 they could get away with it

01:16:45.840 because quite often the people they go for

01:16:47.080 are the people who don't have a profile.

01:16:48.200 But ironically, what they've done is given you an enormous profile.

01:16:52.100 Yeah, they've kind of given themselves a bit of a black eye

01:16:54.580 in prosecuting me, which I don't think they were expecting at all.

01:16:59.400 Whereas, I mean, we weren't expecting the level of support.

01:17:03.060 But I don't think we'd seen many convictions like mine.

01:17:07.780 It was really kind of, especially the Southport thing,

01:17:10.540 obviously we saw Lucy Letby, not Lucy Letby, God, Lucy Conley.

01:17:13.520 Lucy Conley.

01:17:14.540 Not Letby.

01:17:16.000 Yeah, good one.

01:17:16.720 um but uh but we're sort of like lucy conley i mean that's another good example she had very

01:17:20.640 few followers the tweet was up for a few hours and it was deleted it it it's kind of inverse

01:17:26.480 it's like the less profile you have is because they've because i mean what you've described is

01:17:30.800 a system that is just overflowing with this spite towards the native population and they're kind of

01:17:37.580 looking for um maybe don't want me to say this but bugs that they can crush to alleviate their

01:17:43.500 spite and in doing so they they they occasionally you know create a monster well not a monster but

01:17:50.100 you know yeah from their point of view yeah and we saw on a larger scale after southport it's like

01:17:56.040 they didn't address any of the underlying issues that brought about all this kind of public anger

01:18:00.600 instead they just kind of crammed the the lid back on that pressure oh no i mean i remember

01:18:04.380 keir starman saying in response to those three girls who were who were murdered and i mean we

01:18:09.040 we always talk about

01:18:09.640 the three girls that were murdered

01:18:10.640 but I mean

01:18:11.120 the rest of the girls

01:18:12.960 in that room 0.65

01:18:13.400 were horribly mutilated

01:18:14.620 and have life changing

01:18:15.820 so it's a whole room

01:18:16.760 full of young girls

01:18:17.460 and he stood up

01:18:19.140 on the stage

01:18:19.640 and said

01:18:20.000 it doesn't matter

01:18:20.640 it doesn't matter

01:18:21.860 why you're writing

01:18:22.480 that doesn't matter 1.00

01:18:23.700 those girls don't matter 1.00

01:18:25.000 yeah 1.00

01:18:25.940 meanwhile

01:18:26.480 three ambulances burn

01:18:27.940 and it's

01:18:28.940 yes

01:18:29.180 you know

01:18:30.260 COVID notes

01:18:31.200 and yeah

01:18:31.720 and I think

01:18:33.720 everyone sees that

01:18:34.680 that kind of

01:18:35.300 two tier justice

01:18:36.300 that we're

01:18:36.920 talking about

01:18:37.840 it's just

01:18:38.400 every time the state has to wield this power it also sacrifices a bit of its legitimacy

01:18:43.840 and i think my case was a big one of those lucy connelly um the southport thing you know the

01:18:51.820 gold is green attacks it's like every time they're wielding this power they they can't seem to

01:18:56.840 actually address the issues that people have and instead just hit it with a hammer and it's and

01:19:01.740 expect it to go away and it's like no it just pops up somewhere somewhere else normally a lot bigger

01:19:05.720 um but yeah with my case i think they thought we'll take out the sticker guy he's a bit of a

01:19:11.100 no name at the moment um but i mean after that first arrest back in 2021 that's when we started

01:19:17.560 doing like megaphone demos outside uh you know migrant hotels and because we were like we know

01:19:24.500 what they want to do they want to silence us and scare us and it's like well we're going to do the

01:19:28.000 exact opposite and we're going to be louder than ever before and and that's and that's what's

01:19:33.060 happened and then since going away the card of the conversation has changed a lot um you know

01:19:38.760 we're talking in the trial having to prove rape rape gang existed come out two years later yes

01:19:45.280 they always existed we know they are oh the narrative is slipping yeah and then it's like

01:19:49.420 and now it's deport millions and it's like yes previously it's like it's like please i mean if

01:19:55.000 we could just stop the incoming and now it's like don't worry about the incoming they're all going

01:19:58.860 you know and it's like right okay so things are changing massively and and the state really doesn't

01:20:04.040 have any any uh opposition to it because it's like all they can do is is crush it because when i knew

01:20:11.260 i was going to be talking with this probation team prevent team and everything i thought i was kind

01:20:14.840 of excited because i was like right i'm going to get the best arguments you know stuff stuff that

01:20:20.180 if i had hair would blow it back and it's like if anything's going to convince me these guys are

01:20:25.880 going to have the argument and and i asked them it's like please bring your big guns i want

01:20:29.700 whatever your best arguments are and they've got nothing yeah they don't know there's literally

01:20:34.620 nothing and it's to understand that it's like oh right like we're still having these debates and

01:20:40.720 everything but it's like really the debate's been won long ago and i think mainly the reason why

01:20:46.320 they still want to talk is because it burns time you know until the demographic clock kind of tips

01:20:50.480 over that 50% mark

01:20:52.120 and at that point

01:20:53.240 nothing can really be done

01:20:54.240 then we're in Lebanon's situation 0.74

01:20:57.620 yeah

01:20:58.060 and it's like

01:20:59.300 so you know

01:21:00.340 dark futures

01:21:02.240 but it's

01:21:03.740 yeah

01:21:05.080 it was good to

01:21:06.560 finally talk to him

01:21:07.880 and it's like

01:21:08.440 and see

01:21:08.980 it's like

01:21:09.400 see the man behind the curtain

01:21:10.920 and realise

01:21:11.420 it's just a little old man

01:21:12.460 he's not a wizard after

01:21:13.260 yeah yeah yeah

01:21:13.800 and it's like

01:21:14.480 alright cool

01:21:15.340 so it's like

01:21:15.940 now I know

01:21:16.740 I don't have to

01:21:17.800 I don't have to keep coming up

01:21:19.360 with new and novel arguments or anything like that because it's like none of that's going to

01:21:22.220 work because your answer is stop caring about you know if anything we just got to simplify the

01:21:27.160 arguments we already have and just keep repeating them yeah yeah and we win yeah and more and more

01:21:31.660 people whether it's my case whether it's you know whatever happens next or whatever it's like more

01:21:36.460 and more people start to wake up to what's going on who's doing it and realize that it's like oh

01:21:42.520 this can't be allowed to continue you know we've got to put a stop to it because it's existential

01:21:47.300 for us you know this is our homeland and we've got to defend it with everything we've got yeah 0.97

01:21:52.200 are you are you free and clear with the bullshit or do i need to give you my date of birth after 0.51

01:21:55.900 this i'll take that just just to know um no yeah frankly as of march 1st i was uh completely released 0.95

01:22:03.640 from everything um and no doubt they're still monitoring my social medias and see if i say

01:22:08.820 anything about a demonstration or anything like that so they can pull me away so what are you

01:22:12.980 putting your energies into at the moment uh patriotic alternative i'm still a regional

01:22:17.220 organizer there and i've been um i've been playing with the idea and talking with a few people um

01:22:23.100 about the possibility of launching a kind of basically forcing the government to either

01:22:29.320 acknowledge or deny that we're indigenous people um because i think that's incredibly important

01:22:34.340 and they've been kind of sidestepping the issue whenever possible and i think a few months back

01:22:39.080 I mean, the issue with that is as soon as they acknowledge

01:22:42.560 that there is such a thing as an indigenous people to the British Isles, 0.98

01:22:46.220 which they clearly are, all of the other Anglo countries

01:22:49.540 have special protections and privileges for the native people.

01:22:52.860 So it's not even a novel concept.

01:22:54.600 All of the other Anglo countries have those privileges and protection, 1.00

01:22:57.460 except in this one, because the natives are white. 1.00

01:23:02.460 Yeah, and I think that would be an important kind of foundational block 0.97

01:23:07.000 to resistance is to actually have that kind of legally proven

01:23:11.500 and accepted.

01:23:13.300 And like I say, it offers us protections that currently

01:23:16.980 are being denied us purely because they refuse to.

01:23:20.520 You're mainly working through PA, which is effectively

01:23:23.920 a pressure group today.

01:23:24.880 It's given up on the political party stuff.

01:23:26.820 Yeah, we tried to register as a political party

01:23:29.020 and we did a freedom of information request and randomly

01:23:34.440 the home office decides to contact the electoral uh commission they say oh we'd like to talk to

01:23:39.220 you about patriotic alternative next three emails are just like redacted jfk files like black lines

01:23:44.020 and then the next thing it's like yeah you can't have it because the v in alternative kind of looks

01:23:49.860 like a tick and that might trick uh voters so you can't so it's a perfectly ordinary english letter

01:23:57.340 yeah yeah so uh you know it's slightly stylized where one side is longer but it's like to think

01:24:03.480 that a vote is going to go it's like the logo's a tick i will have to put a tick it's like come on

01:24:08.600 what are we doing yeah um so yeah we we tried it for a while and uh and but in the end it's like

01:24:15.320 i don't i don't think another tiny micro party is going to be the solution i mean we've seen

01:24:20.240 restore like romp to hundred and is it 150 120 a thousand they're on members now or something like

01:24:26.560 that it's like crazy and it's like to think that you know you setting up one man and a dog and being

01:24:31.980 like we'll be a party it's like yeah no there's reform and restore now and it's like they're

01:24:36.760 sucking the air out the room for do you still think there is a political solution i think there

01:24:41.100 could be at this general election after this general election i think the numbers game we're

01:24:45.400 just it's not there anymore the white vote is split between what labor conservatives restore

01:24:51.100 reform green lib dems six kind of big parties um whereas the ethnic vote is basically green

01:24:57.480 so it's like

01:24:59.220 it's coalescing

01:25:00.000 yeah yeah

01:25:00.680 and it's like

01:25:01.320 so

01:25:01.840 until they decide

01:25:03.540 that actually

01:25:03.920 they want their own thing

01:25:04.760 yeah

01:25:05.160 they'll either take over

01:25:06.820 the Greens

01:25:07.180 or they'll just

01:25:07.660 start their own thing

01:25:08.620 yeah yeah

01:25:09.200 and we're starting to see

01:25:10.180 that we're seeing

01:25:10.560 independent councillors

01:25:12.240 and I mean

01:25:13.240 you've got things

01:25:13.860 like the Workers' Party

01:25:14.760 and everything

01:25:15.060 which is very clearly

01:25:15.940 kind of like their thing

01:25:17.140 but it's like

01:25:18.820 with the white vote

01:25:19.800 being split

01:25:20.460 past 2029

01:25:22.000 general election

01:25:22.980 purely on numbers alone

01:25:24.260 yeah

01:25:24.640 it's not going to be

01:25:25.800 I think

01:25:26.720 i think it can be turned around even after 2029 it's just that every subsequent election the cost

01:25:31.640 of what you'd have to do to fix it just goes up and up and up yeah a bit like our debt situation

01:25:35.980 i mean you can turn it around even now but it's just so incredibly painful to turn it around now

01:25:42.420 as opposed to 20 years ago yeah yeah i personally i think ethnic sectarianism is our i mean it's

01:25:47.940 already kind of upon us but it's definitely in our future a kind of lebanon situation where our

01:25:53.140 democracy instead of like what's best for britain and you're going to choose left or right instead 0.63

01:25:57.780 it's going to be it's like all right what's best best for my ethnic group screw the rest of you

01:26:02.040 well i mean i had a fascinating you know for us here who who's from lebanon and i had a fascinating

01:26:08.060 conversation with him on this show and um the the situation in lebanon was of course the the the

01:26:13.940 muslim minority was growing more numerous and there was frequent attacks on the christian

01:26:19.180 population a bit a bit like what we got going on here in this country and the thing that actually

01:26:23.900 triggered the civil war was when a bunch of christians pushed back and that and that just

01:26:28.920 opened the floodgates and i i think that the the british government is very aware of that example

01:26:34.340 and the reason they come after people like you so much is because they're terrified of that moment

01:26:39.500 when when the native population is like we've had enough and we're going to push back because then

01:26:43.940 it's just then it's just out there and it's just off yeah yeah and it's uh yeah the gravy train 0.91

01:26:48.920 all of a sudden derails so um i enjoyed the book um not least well it upset me but i mean the case

01:26:57.400 has upset me for a while but but but also i liked it because you don't often get like a normal going

01:27:02.620 into jail so i quite like jeffrey archer's book he wrote one years ago because he was a political

01:27:07.580 prisoner as well because david blunkett didn't like him so he went to jail so it's always quite

01:27:11.020 interesting to find out what it's like in there uh because otherwise you just get the americans

01:27:14.620 so where can people get your book and and what else are you kind of doing and up to at the moment

01:27:19.740 uh so the book's available at grandma towels.co.uk if you'd like grandma towels yeah grandma towels

01:27:25.740 um and that's uh it's my wife's tea and coffee shop uh all mail order tea and coffee and i thought

01:27:29.960 as soon as we own the shop i'll also put the book out via that so if you want a signed copy you can

01:27:33.580 go there um and then we're also available on amazon worldwide okay um but you you get you get less if

01:27:39.580 it goes through amazon so it's probably a little bit less yeah yeah yeah and you could also and

01:27:44.160 you and you brought into our offices and some tea and coffee so i've got a couple copies of the book

01:27:48.520 for you many bookshelves that you've got here as well i'm planning on basically taking over so so

01:27:52.660 if people want to want to support a bit bit of tea and coffee in a book yeah yeah and it's it's

01:27:58.440 sold really well and yes i've been really supportive and everything so i'm really pleased

01:28:02.300 with how it's done and thank you to everyone out there who's already bought one and um but yeah

01:28:07.560 it's uh but going forward uh we've got a few demonstrations planned coming up um you know

01:28:12.960 patriarchal alternative being a community and activism group we've got the summer camp coming

01:28:16.580 up we've got is that mainly geographically an area or you all over the summer camp normally

01:28:22.140 it's about central um i i think it's the same place we had it last year but i don't know where

01:28:27.300 we had it last year because i wasn't allowed to attend uh and then we've got the conference as

01:28:32.620 well but uh but generally we've got regions um up and down the countries and if you're looking to

01:28:37.520 meet people i mean similar to um what's the lotus eaters kind of uh social club thing what's it

01:28:42.520 called um well we it's not ours but there is basket weaving basket weaving yeah so it's very

01:28:48.240 very similar to that okay um a pub yeah and then but it's like but we've also got the activism

01:28:53.500 thing on that as well so the banner drops the demonstrations and the leafleting all that kind

01:28:58.740 stuff um but it's a really positive group um and uh and yeah but we're working with

01:29:04.000 re-migration now with steve laws with woodlander initiative and everything and uh i think when i

01:29:10.680 went away it seemed like a very fractured scene and it feels like i've come back and people uh

01:29:16.500 very aware of the dire straits we're in and you're hopeful now yeah definitely yeah um

01:29:22.720 even if it's just for 1.00

01:29:25.240 if that ethnic sectarianism

01:29:27.660 comes that there's going to be more people

01:29:29.740 who are actually going to be awake to what's

01:29:31.720 going on and be willing to

01:29:33.560 identify with others based on

01:29:35.520 their British ethnicity and go like we need to

01:29:37.540 band together. I mean I hope it doesn't 1.00

01:29:39.340 and the reason I do what I do is

01:29:41.200 to try and stop that from happening in the first

01:29:43.560 place. Oh it'd be great. Because it'd be infinitely

01:29:45.520 preferable to

01:29:46.860 just have a political system that actually

01:29:49.260 acknowledged what the people living in the country

01:29:51.460 wanted

01:29:51.900 it'd be nice

01:29:52.900 wouldn't it

01:29:53.420 yeah

01:29:53.700 well Sam

01:29:55.320 thank you so much

01:29:56.060 for coming in

01:29:56.480 and sharing your

01:29:57.000 story

01:29:57.260 that was

01:29:57.680 absolutely

01:29:58.120 fantastic

01:29:58.600 is there

01:29:59.320 anything else

01:29:59.720 you want to

01:30:00.420 share with the

01:30:00.720 audience

01:30:01.020 before we

01:30:02.140 leave you

01:30:02.580 no that's

01:30:03.440 great

01:30:03.620 thank you

01:30:03.960 for having

01:30:04.340 me

01:30:04.500 it's been

01:30:04.820 a really

01:30:05.280 nice

01:30:05.960 conversation

01:30:06.420 it's great

01:30:06.740 to meet

01:30:06.960 everyone in

01:30:07.420 the office

01:30:07.880 here as

01:30:08.180 well

01:30:08.600 great

01:30:08.880 thank you

01:30:09.380 Sam

01:30:09.560 thank you

01:30:21.460 Thank you.

The Podcast of the Lotus Eaters - May 12, 2026

FREEMIUM： Brokenomics ｜ Sam Melia - Political Prisoner

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