The Podcast of the Lotus Eaters - May 19, 2025


＂Let's Become a Bit More Difficult＂ ｜ Interview with Rupert Lowe MP


Episode Stats

Length

51 minutes

Words per Minute

181.25966

Word Count

9,382

Sentence Count

634

Misogynist Sentences

6

Hate Speech Sentences

16


Summary


Transcript

00:00:00.000 Hi, folks. I have the pleasure to be joined by Rupert Lowe, independent MP for Great Yarmouth, husband, father, business owner, grandfather, in fact, and social media firebrand.
00:00:10.960 Well, I think that's probably a bit flattering, Carl. And again, it's irony, really.
00:00:17.420 I owe my social media representation to Nigel Farage because when I got so frustrated with Theresa May that, as you probably know, I stood for the referendum party.
00:00:27.420 I did a lot against the Maastricht Treaty. I then did a lot of business of selling. I did a lot for vote leave.
00:00:32.280 And when I came forward to stand for the Brexit party, because our establishment, as usual, were making complete cock of it, I decided that I should go and see Nigel, which I did.
00:00:42.740 And basically, he said to me, if you want to stand and I'd like you to stand, you have to have an X account.
00:00:49.820 What was a Twitter account in those days? So I said, well, I can't believe that anybody wants to read the rubbish that I might put out.
00:00:56.600 But if you insist, if that's part of the deal, then I'll set one up.
00:01:00.420 So hence, I'm now active on social media, not just on X.
00:01:05.560 I mean, we found other platforms, Facebook locally in Great Yarmouth, Facebook nationally, LinkedIn incredibly powerful.
00:01:13.440 And I think those people, the Luddites who say social media is a bad thing and therefore don't use it, are missing a big trick.
00:01:22.140 And if anything, my own view is it's an agent for freedom.
00:01:27.100 Because if you have enough people following you on social media, then any injustices that you suffer can be made public.
00:01:35.780 And I think that is a shield to protect at least some of this nonsense, which would protect you, one against it.
00:01:45.180 This sort of lawfare, which I think the Western states are now employing against their honest, decent taxpaying citizens.
00:01:53.160 I completely agree.
00:01:53.880 And it's a wonderful thing to have someone like Elon Musk in control of one of the most important social media platforms.
00:02:01.300 Because Elon has made it very clear that he also views them as a tool for freedom.
00:02:05.260 And he's quite uncompromising on that, actually.
00:02:08.980 Well, he was a breath of fresh air when he took it over, and credit to him.
00:02:11.740 It was a huge takeover.
00:02:15.800 Arguably, he overpaid for it.
00:02:17.500 But I think, like a lot of things he does, and I do think he's probably the world's most successful entrepreneur, so I give him credit for that.
00:02:25.740 Clearly, we've seen him cut out a load of overhead.
00:02:29.060 A lot of that was arguably sort of editing people's posts and using all sorts of algorithms to dumb people down.
00:02:36.060 He is, like you and I, a proponent of completely unfettered free speech, which, as we know, is part of our constitution, our unwritten constitution.
00:02:47.820 And it's embedded in the 1689 Bill of Rights.
00:02:51.400 So I think we tread off that path at our own peril.
00:02:56.660 And if we do disrespect that Protestant ethic, which is embedded into the Bill of Rights, then we will be taking a very retrograde step.
00:03:08.380 Couldn't agree more.
00:03:09.960 So what I was going to lead this conversation with is I was going to ask you to give me a general lay of the political landscape in Britain from your point of view.
00:03:20.780 Who do you think is doing well?
00:03:22.540 Who do you think is doing poorly?
00:03:23.520 And what do you think the future holds and what do we need?
00:03:27.880 Well, Labour, Carl, I call it their landslip election victory because it wasn't a landslide.
00:03:35.340 It was they won a big majority on a very, very small percentage of the vote.
00:03:40.640 So in my view, that's a landslip, not a landslide.
00:03:43.640 And I think I want to be in Parliament later because I've got this horrible feeling that when we see the details of what they've done with this European treaty that they've now rekindled,
00:03:57.680 despite the fact that 17.4 million people voted to leave the EU and take back our own sovereignty,
00:04:02.880 I suspect they're going to pursue what they've always wanted to pursue, which is this sort of post-war socialist European dream.
00:04:13.200 So they've surrendered the Chagos Islands.
00:04:16.760 And I see this morning, Mauritius is now talking not only to China, but also to Russia.
00:04:22.600 It's the most bizarre piece of statesmanship I've ever seen in my life.
00:04:28.300 I think maybe it's Starmer, Hermer and Lamy indulging their sort of view that Britain is a sort of racist post-colonial nation,
00:04:38.740 which actually, when in actual fact, Britain did a hell of a good during its colonial period.
00:04:43.200 Obviously some bad, but, you know, that comes with the territory.
00:04:48.060 I think I'm fairly representative in most people's opinion of the British Empire.
00:04:53.640 I generally think it was basically a good thing.
00:04:55.660 It was a good thing.
00:04:56.380 And look at India's legal system.
00:04:58.420 Look at a lot of the structures we put in place.
00:05:01.460 Look at the condition of the world before.
00:05:02.400 And it's an interesting one.
00:05:03.380 It's an interesting one, this.
00:05:04.300 And I don't know if you've looked at this, but my own personal theory, and not everybody agrees with this,
00:05:08.600 is that I am the product.
00:05:10.500 I'm called a TOF and all that sort of stuff by saint supporters and by other people.
00:05:15.300 I'm actually not a TOF.
00:05:16.020 I'm a provincial boy and I've just given you a book on our family business that's been in 100 years.
00:05:20.840 But I actually think the public school's got a lot to be blamed for.
00:05:24.300 And this is my own personal theory.
00:05:26.880 And if ever you read, there's a man called Corelli Barnett who's written some extremely good books on why the public school
00:05:32.920 and the sort of religious movement, really, of the sort of 1850s, which is when a lot of them were formed,
00:05:40.120 is responsible not only for creating people to administer the empire, which they did very honestly.
00:05:47.940 It also weakened us.
00:05:50.440 Because after Waterloo in 1815, we had the opportunity, if we'd wanted to, to take over Europe.
00:05:58.200 We didn't do that.
00:05:58.960 We just wanted to trade with Europe.
00:06:01.480 So trade was the driver for Britain.
00:06:04.340 It always has been.
00:06:05.120 We're a maritime nation.
00:06:07.280 So I think in terms of, you know, post-war, really post sort of Waterloo Britain,
00:06:17.260 the public school's probably to blame for a lot of the problems.
00:06:20.700 Not only products like myself, but also people who ultimately are imbued with a view that there is a right and there is a wrong.
00:06:30.740 And that's, I think, the basis of the British Empire, which, with a few exceptions, was a very good thing for a lot of people.
00:06:39.020 So I don't think we should feel in any way ashamed of what we've done.
00:06:42.760 I think we should feel proud of it.
00:06:44.200 And I think we should feel very proud of our history.
00:06:46.420 I agree.
00:06:46.760 And just a quick thing there.
00:06:48.180 It's remarkable how ignorant people are of the world prior to the British Empire.
00:06:54.560 Just tremendous levels of suffering, slavery, and other highly ignoble practices just all over the world.
00:07:03.360 Well, as you know, Wilberforce, that was a, he was an Englishman, and he ultimately, along with the Royal Navy, funnily enough,
00:07:10.520 reinforced the anti-slavery movement.
00:07:13.640 And, you know, I think probably the most interesting part of our history was a period when we had the Civil War,
00:07:23.000 but we had tremendous sort of evolution of Britain as a principled democracy,
00:07:30.320 where you had incredibly enlightened people doing very enlightened things,
00:07:36.300 and you've got huge amounts of change here, which I think often is not discussed properly,
00:07:41.120 and not covered probably in the history books either.
00:07:44.100 So, you know, we did have wars, we did have some unpleasantness, but in the end, that tends to be a feature of human history.
00:07:52.480 So conflict is a good thing.
00:07:55.500 And I would argue that a lot of the power of Europe, a lot of the strength of Europe, was from the conflicts that took place between the nation-states.
00:08:02.940 Preaching to the choir.
00:08:03.900 Before I go on with your question about political parties, let's just talk about nation-states,
00:08:07.620 because competing nation-states were the genesis, in my view, of Europe's preeminence for a very long period of time.
00:08:16.020 And it may be that we're about to surrender that because of our sort of rotten political system, which is now prevailing.
00:08:23.380 But I've never understood why anyone thought that a sort of collection of cooperating nation-states isn't the best form of government for everybody.
00:08:36.080 And that appears to be not what the globalists want, and they're doing their very best to ensure that doesn't happen.
00:08:42.680 So going back to the political situation, so Labour, I think, are, in my view, a bunch of jokers.
00:08:51.780 Would I put Keir Starmer, David Lammy, Rachel Reeves, and a collection of people with no business experience in charge of negotiating on behalf of the British people?
00:09:05.760 No, I definitely wouldn't.
00:09:07.100 Of 26 of them, I think three of them have got what I would call very questionable business experience.
00:09:11.280 So I watch in sort of absolute shock as they appear to think Europeans have a stronger negotiating position than us,
00:09:22.860 when in reality, we are the ones who voted to leave.
00:09:26.780 We are the ones who've got the arms.
00:09:29.540 We've got the technology.
00:09:30.660 We've got the structures, which Europe needs.
00:09:33.720 Equally, we have a massive trade deficit with Europe.
00:09:37.480 And if you have a trade deficit, that gives you the negotiating power, because you don't have to trade with Europe.
00:09:44.160 You can actually buy your oranges and a lot of your products that we used to be forced to buy from Spain or other parts of the European Union.
00:09:53.240 We can buy them from other parts of the world far cheaper.
00:09:56.580 We can equally have a say in how they're produced and what quality we want out of those products.
00:10:02.480 And, you know, after many years in the EU, our fishing industry is destroyed.
00:10:09.700 My constituency, Great Yarmouth, you used to better walk across the port there on fishing boats.
00:10:14.980 There's now one left.
00:10:16.780 So there are no, you know, the bloaters there no longer.
00:10:20.780 The herring industry is no longer there.
00:10:22.360 They used to process herring.
00:10:24.060 That's all gone.
00:10:25.480 Most of our fish is now processed in Holland.
00:10:27.680 Most of our food is processed in Europe because they bought up.
00:10:31.540 We have a much more open economy than them.
00:10:33.080 So a lot of our businesses got bought up and a lot of our jobs got exported to the continent.
00:10:38.600 So, look, I mean, I think with the right leadership, this country, we've got the best people.
00:10:44.600 We just haven't got the best leaders.
00:10:46.200 So talking Labour, no, that for me, they are rank amateurs.
00:10:51.940 There are a lot of them who are too young to even know which way is up.
00:10:55.880 They're new MPs.
00:10:57.940 I think we're beginning to see a bit of sort of revolt from the rural constituencies because
00:11:03.420 having done over the farmers and small businesses and tried to break the backbone of Britain,
00:11:10.840 some of them are beginning to realise that they're not going to be re-elected next time.
00:11:14.860 So you're seeing the first stirrings of a bit of a frisson there.
00:11:18.720 But, you know, to give you an example, when I was arguing with a man called Daniel Zeichner
00:11:26.540 who runs DEFRA, I clashed with him and Steve Reid over the fact that both of them said that
00:11:35.560 there would be no APR on farmland if they won the election.
00:11:40.100 And shortly after the election, they banged APR onto farmland as well as BPR onto small
00:11:44.740 family businesses.
00:11:46.440 So I went to see Mrs. Zeichner in his office and we had 20 minutes talking about why it
00:11:51.400 was a bad thing and breaking the backbone of Britain's farmers and small businesses was
00:11:55.240 a thoroughly bad idea.
00:11:56.820 Sorry, I have to ask.
00:11:57.560 But I've got to tell you this.
00:11:58.360 So he looks me in the eye, Carl, and he says, I've got to stop you there, Rupert, he said.
00:12:03.580 Um, I think that very often the public sector is more efficient than the private sector.
00:12:12.160 That's not a joke, Carl.
00:12:13.660 That is what he said.
00:12:14.920 Based on what evidence?
00:12:15.940 At which point I closed my file and I stood up and I said, in that case, Daniel, I'm wasting
00:12:21.120 my time.
00:12:21.680 And I walked out.
00:12:23.420 So these people are driven.
00:12:25.660 They're driven not by logic.
00:12:27.820 They're driven by some sort of ideological, uh, uh, crusade that they think they need
00:12:34.300 to carry out.
00:12:35.140 And whatever they say, I have a saying, watch what the hands are doing, not what the mouth
00:12:39.060 is saying.
00:12:39.640 Just watch what the hands are doing everywhere.
00:12:42.400 Uh, what they're trying to do is remove the power of the individual and impose the power
00:12:49.960 of the state.
00:12:50.860 We've already got too much state.
00:12:52.320 We need, we need the individual to be cut free.
00:12:54.980 We need the brambles to be cut back, the light to come in, and we need to cut the size of
00:12:59.100 the state and empower those people who are going to take risk and drive our economy.
00:13:03.900 As well as, you know, I always think human relationships are far better, you know, you
00:13:08.160 and I having a relationship rather than the state trying to impose some sort of relationship
00:13:12.580 between people, which never works.
00:13:14.240 I mean, this, this is all, these are all things that have been self-evident conventional
00:13:19.400 wisdom for decades until right now, until now when everything, I mean, for example,
00:13:24.740 the, you, you having to explain why actually baking, breaking the back of the farmers is
00:13:28.500 a bad thing for Britain.
00:13:30.000 Why should you have to explain that?
00:13:32.300 That should be so self-evident.
00:13:33.740 Well, they see it, I think, as a, uh, an elitist part of Britain, but what they don't
00:13:38.000 are none of them farm.
00:13:38.820 And I actually do.
00:13:39.560 It's my passion.
00:13:40.660 I've always wanted to farm, but for various reasons in the end, um, largely because my
00:13:45.300 father had five wives and I, I, I, I didn't get on with some of my stepmothers.
00:13:50.120 So I ended up having to go and make my own way, which ended up in the city.
00:13:53.420 And then I've actually got my own farm now, which I bought and I, it's my passion.
00:13:57.680 And, and, you know, when I get filled with bullet holes from whether it's the establishment,
00:14:03.080 whether it's my colleagues at reform, whoever, uh, the sanity returns when I walk my crops
00:14:09.600 and I look at things growing.
00:14:10.840 And I think to myself, there's no way that I can actually change nature.
00:14:16.340 Nature is what it is.
00:14:17.980 You have to respect it.
00:14:19.060 You have to be humble.
00:14:20.040 You have to work with it.
00:14:21.780 You can't work against it.
00:14:23.120 And this is, I think what, where man's gone so wrong now.
00:14:26.080 And this is where I think in answer to your question about the political parties, there's,
00:14:29.460 there's a lot of very lightweight people who, who are there as we know, because Blair and
00:14:33.360 Cameron selected people on quotas, not on merit.
00:14:37.280 And there's an arrogance, there's an underlying arrogance rather than a humility.
00:14:41.580 Uh, and people think they can control everything, which they will learn that they can't, they
00:14:47.240 can't, they simply can't, they think they can.
00:14:49.320 And the latest fad obviously is trying to live forever.
00:14:51.880 And, you know, all the things that, that, that the modern man or woman thinks that she
00:14:57.360 can achieve, uh, and the arrogance that comes with it is quite incredible, but let's move
00:15:01.900 on to the Tories.
00:15:02.580 So the Tories, I think, you know, I get on very well with the Tories.
00:15:07.380 I, I, I, I think there are some very good young Tories.
00:15:10.880 I think they're, they are Tory.
00:15:12.760 Uh, and you, you know, there's a difference between being a conservative and being a Tories.
00:15:15.880 You and I know a lot of other people probably don't know that, but I think we know that.
00:15:19.180 I think the public's becoming well aware that the conservatives are actually not conservative.
00:15:23.680 No, no, they're Lib Dems.
00:15:25.180 There's, there's about 70 Lib Dem Tories.
00:15:27.380 So that is in itself an oxymoron, but, but that's what they are.
00:15:31.360 So I, I, I think there's some very, there is some light, uh, within the Tory party, but the
00:15:36.080 problem is.
00:15:37.380 We've had a series of, uh, very weak leaders who have, uh, brought in people in their own
00:15:43.760 image rather than the people who should have been brought in, uh, and reformed.
00:15:49.200 I think the Tory party is still as it was when Maggie Thatcher reformed it after, uh, you
00:15:54.640 know, too much socialism, which is, you know, ended in Britain being the laughingstock of the
00:15:59.580 world, having to go to the IMF beer and sandwiches in number 10.
00:16:03.140 And my, my father, for the unions, all through my, my youth, my father would regale me with
00:16:08.480 tales of how they would have, uh, the electricity would go up during the middle of the week or
00:16:12.880 the rubbish would be.
00:16:13.520 When I was at school, we used to have prep boards and we had candles on the prep board
00:16:17.000 because electricity went out when you needed it to study.
00:16:20.440 Yes.
00:16:21.020 So look, I mean, the miners' strikes we, we had, obviously, uh, it was a shocking period.
00:16:25.740 And after the sixties, which I think was a wonderful period, uh, uh, and in some ways
00:16:31.120 that was the sort of release post-war, um, but then we got the socialism and we got, you
00:16:38.120 know, the death of Britain, really of enterprise, which is what happens when you get collectivism.
00:16:43.840 So, and there's always been a battle in my view between collectivism and individualism.
00:16:48.740 I, I, I'm firmly in the individual camp.
00:16:50.980 I, I, I, I, I loathe collectivism.
00:16:53.620 I think collectivism is a, is a, is, should be fought at every turn.
00:16:57.840 So it hides all sorts of sins and weaknesses and, and you only have to look at what happened.
00:17:04.080 The communists lasted what, one and a half generations.
00:17:07.020 And when the war finally came down, there was nothing there.
00:17:09.860 Yeah.
00:17:10.180 And I can remember that.
00:17:11.120 That was great.
00:17:11.840 So, so, um, we don't seem to learn from that and we are getting to the stage now where,
00:17:17.840 you know, we have got too much collectivism.
00:17:20.520 Why would you take risk?
00:17:21.840 If, if you decide something's a good idea and you invest and you make money, the state
00:17:28.380 takes it all off you.
00:17:29.460 But if you lose money because you're wrong, and that's the essence of an entrepreneur
00:17:32.520 is to lubricate the system, you still have to write the check.
00:17:36.500 And now it's getting more and more difficult to offset those losses against other income
00:17:40.580 streams.
00:17:41.160 So what do people do?
00:17:42.420 The answer is nothing, which is what happened under communism.
00:17:44.860 So nobody, nobody creates enterprise.
00:17:47.180 Nobody employs other people.
00:17:49.240 Nobody bothers to do anything other than if they're rich, sit on their backside and enjoy
00:17:54.560 the, the, the, the sort of, whether it's the benefits of their labors or their, their
00:17:59.720 forebears is another matter.
00:18:00.840 But the Tories, so I think there are good things in the Tories, but I want to answer your
00:18:05.200 question on this.
00:18:06.620 Uh, but I think they've got a long way to go.
00:18:10.900 Uh, I think head office is a problem.
00:18:12.600 Um, I think that the Lib Dem Tory MPs are a problem.
00:18:17.020 And I think the jury is still very much out on whether they pick the right leader.
00:18:21.600 And I, I, I have nothing against Kemi.
00:18:23.440 I think she's a nice lady, but has she covered herself in glory at the dispatch box?
00:18:27.480 Probably not.
00:18:28.220 Is she going to be able to do what is necessary for the Tory party?
00:18:33.520 She, I think it's, it's, it's possible that she will, she will find it difficult.
00:18:38.820 So I have to ask, uh, the question that is hanging in the air, um, are you going to join
00:18:44.240 the Conservative Party?
00:18:45.720 Well, I, I think if I'd want, if I wanted to, I could, and I, and I, but I, I don't think
00:18:51.980 it would be right to do that at the moment.
00:18:53.680 As I say, I think a reformed Tory party would be, would be, uh, interesting, but I don't,
00:18:58.860 I don't see how they can get themselves out of their current malaise.
00:19:03.360 And let's face it.
00:19:04.240 They did have quite a long play with the toy set, not least Boris with an 80 seat majority
00:19:09.700 who did the square root of nothing.
00:19:12.280 If he'd done nothing, things would be better.
00:19:14.720 Indeed.
00:19:15.120 He, it seemed to me at the latter part of his, his, his sort of tenure that actually it was
00:19:21.300 his wife running the country rather than him.
00:19:23.400 It was her policies that seemed to be coming through rather than his.
00:19:26.640 And if you, if you look at what Boris wrote, you know, between 2000, 2015, he wrote some
00:19:31.760 great stuff.
00:19:32.440 He did.
00:19:33.160 Unfortunately, he couldn't deliver it.
00:19:34.820 Well, this, this is the, this is the question about Boris.
00:19:38.220 Was he sincere or was he just saying what people wanted to hear?
00:19:42.660 And like you say, you know, you can, you can say whatever you like, but you've got to
00:19:46.320 watch what the hands are doing.
00:19:47.720 And the hands were very, very, um, just, just an open betrayal, just plunging daggers.
00:19:55.700 I think the answer is the mouth said a lot, but we didn't see much from the hands, Carl.
00:19:59.260 I think that's, I think, I think the main issue is the immigration.
00:20:02.960 Um, for the, for the, legal, legal immigration.
00:20:05.700 Yeah.
00:20:06.180 One has to, because the, the illegal immigration is always used a bit of a smokescreen by the
00:20:09.860 conservatives in particular.
00:20:10.860 Uh, well, I mean, for, okay, but you brought them in and put them in hotels.
00:20:14.700 So don't talk to me about the illegals, but it's the legals that are the issue.
00:20:18.340 I mean, we see it in Swindon high street.
00:20:19.900 Now there's just people from just all over the world sat around drinking coffee and I'm
00:20:23.540 paying for the privilege.
00:20:24.580 Yeah.
00:20:25.040 And this is all thanks to Boris Johnson.
00:20:27.440 Uh, so thanks Boris.
00:20:29.340 So, so that's the tour is, you know, they need to reform basically.
00:20:34.500 Uh, obviously the Lib Dems, I, I, I, I, when all this, when all this nonsense happened,
00:20:41.840 I, I, I, you know, I, I, I, I, Daisy Cooper, uh, threw her arms around me and said, was
00:20:47.540 I okay?
00:20:48.900 Uh, and I sort of, you know, look, pinched myself and thought, cause I'm often up, up
00:20:52.680 against her on, on the different side of the equation.
00:20:54.680 But by the way, I like political debate, you know, I mean, Wedgie Ben was one of my
00:20:59.280 heroes.
00:20:59.700 I, I don't mind people who say what they think if it disagrees with me, but as long as
00:21:03.100 they're honest about it, unlike Keir Starmer, unlike most of the labor front bench, and she
00:21:07.420 threw her arms around me and said, what are I okay?
00:21:10.140 Cause I think everybody in parliament could see that what reform did to me was, was vile,
00:21:14.900 uh, unfair, uh, and it, you know, just totally unjust.
00:21:19.280 So despite the fact that, you know, the accusations they made against me, uh, you know, the fact
00:21:24.880 that I had early onset dementia and I was showing signs of losing my temper and, you know, that
00:21:31.020 I was bullied, there's willing, I was bullying people, which is complete nonsense.
00:21:34.500 And that, you know, I made threats, which I didn't.
00:21:37.360 So at the end of the day, um, she came up to me and I did say to her, well, I'm okay,
00:21:43.440 Daisy, but lesser men might be in the priory by now.
00:21:46.980 So anyway, we, we've carried on.
00:21:48.980 And, uh, I think there is now some light there, but the Lib Dems, I, I find it hard to take
00:21:55.840 them seriously, to be honest.
00:21:56.960 Oh, really?
00:21:58.000 Very hard.
00:21:59.420 Very hard.
00:22:00.660 I watched Ed Davies campaigns and, uh, I mean, don't get me wrong.
00:22:04.240 I'd like to go to Alton Towers with him, uh, but I don't really want him running the country.
00:22:08.240 What, falling, falling off surfboards in Windermere or wherever it was.
00:22:11.780 He looks like a fun guy, doesn't he?
00:22:13.540 Uh, you know, but like I said, I don't really want him in charge of the country.
00:22:16.560 No.
00:22:16.840 Uh, so they're, they're not appealing to you then, the Liberal Democrats.
00:22:19.020 No, and the Greens, I can't take, I simply can't take them seriously.
00:22:22.480 But, uh, you know, so.
00:22:23.780 What, a communist Islamic alliance?
00:22:26.040 Oh, yeah, I'm not, I'm not in favour of those either.
00:22:29.440 So that's a quick roundup.
00:22:30.540 But, I mean, the essence of Parliament is that we have sort of a group of people who
00:22:36.560 don't represent what I think should be represented in Parliament.
00:22:41.220 It's not the cutting edge of Britain.
00:22:43.160 It's a hollowed out, uh, uh, rather average group of people who, you know, those fish that
00:22:50.100 sort of swim around like this and they swim around like this and they swim around.
00:22:53.660 I think it's a bit like that.
00:22:55.180 And I'll tell you something else about Parliament, which I think is interesting, which, uh, in
00:22:59.860 my short tenure there, uh, uh, is it's supposed to be under the 1689 Bill of Rights, the, an
00:23:08.880 elected MP is supposed to be an incredibly powerful person.
00:23:12.920 And the staff are supposed to support the MPs.
00:23:19.880 The MPs are supposed to, from the MPs are drawn the cabinet ministers who are then supposed
00:23:24.300 to hold the civil service to account.
00:23:25.820 But if you get this very weak gene pool in Parliament, first of all, the ministers don't
00:23:32.700 hold the civil service to account, which is what has happened.
00:23:35.280 So ultimately the permanent sectors are running the country and they're unelected.
00:23:39.020 Uh, and they're not being held to account by, by, by the people who are elected, who, who are
00:23:45.320 on the front bench, who should be, that's their job.
00:23:47.280 But like a chairman holding a board to account.
00:23:49.140 Um, but equally, and we saw this with Dominic Raab, uh, and that's why I think, uh, reform
00:23:56.440 using this lawfare against me, this accusation of, this false accusation of bullying in my office
00:24:03.000 and things like that, you know, the staff in Parliament now are arguably more powerful than
00:24:10.340 the MPs.
00:24:11.640 They have the best offices, uh, at any, uh, uh, sort of, uh, form of.
00:24:19.140 Holding to account, they shout foul or bully or some other, uh, uh, sort of, um, uh, accusation.
00:24:28.120 There is, as a result of the, uh, MPs expenses scandal, there's a man, uh, uh, uh, called Daniel
00:24:36.360 Greenberg, who is the Parliamentary Commissioner on Standards.
00:24:38.860 So most of the people are, live in fear of this fellow who's got an absolutely wonderful
00:24:42.620 office in Parliament.
00:24:44.240 Not like my, what I call the molehole, which is, which, which one of, which has got no light,
00:24:48.980 one of which has got a door, but the penalties, I've got scaffolding in my office because the
00:24:53.660 roof is, is need to be propped up.
00:24:56.000 So my office is sort of cut by about 30% because I've got a large piece of scaffolding
00:25:00.960 with, you know, that, that foam around it to make sure nobody hurts themselves, thanks
00:25:05.920 to health and safety.
00:25:06.940 Yeah.
00:25:07.040 So look, Parliament probably needs a big shakeup itself.
00:25:11.220 It probably needs to understand that the elected MPs are the representatives of the
00:25:17.060 people.
00:25:17.480 They should be omnipotent.
00:25:18.740 They should be powerful.
00:25:19.860 They should not be frightened of saying what they think, of doing what they think, of behaving
00:25:24.360 in a way which obviously has to be, has to be correct, but they should be forceful,
00:25:29.520 strong, powerful leaders who represent their area.
00:25:33.400 And that was the essence of Parliament.
00:25:35.280 I think you had, you know, me and my constituent, you and your constituency, and you, then you
00:25:41.460 had an active debate in what, on what was the best interest of your constituency and the
00:25:45.660 country.
00:25:46.380 And, and you hoped you were able to align all those and then make decisions for the British
00:25:50.440 people.
00:25:50.960 And I, this, this is a much more sort of Burkean approach to politics.
00:25:54.280 Of course.
00:25:54.740 Yeah.
00:25:54.960 And you know, Lord Salisbury, you know, people like that, they, I think were, yes, they were,
00:26:00.300 they were powerful, but their interests aligned with the interests of the British people.
00:26:05.060 And we got some great decisions.
00:26:07.760 Today, Keir Starmer, human rights lawyer, he's pork barrel living on the back of what
00:26:15.160 I would call a, a sort of legal system, which has gone, gone very badly wrong.
00:26:22.900 Is he the right man to be leading the country?
00:26:25.040 Is he the right man to be defending our borders?
00:26:26.640 Is he the right man to be protecting the remnants of, of, of what is in Britain's interests?
00:26:32.180 I, I, I doubt it.
00:26:33.980 Very few people would, would doubt that either.
00:26:36.240 So what do you think Britain actually needs?
00:26:39.380 What, what is required to set the ship of state rights?
00:26:42.780 I'll tell you what I say to my constituents, Carl.
00:26:45.240 And, and I'm, look, I'm, you know, I'm 67.
00:26:47.600 I'm, I'm, I'm, I give my parliamentary salary to charity just to show I'm not in this for
00:26:52.520 personal advantage.
00:26:54.660 In fact, my wife would quite like it if I hadn't done what I'm doing, because we would
00:26:59.060 be living a far more civilized life.
00:27:02.080 And probably we could, we could, we could see our days out.
00:27:05.540 And as I've been doing this weekend, grow my vegetables, which I've been posting about
00:27:09.600 on, on, on my ex account.
00:27:11.460 You've seen my tomatoes.
00:27:12.680 They look quite good.
00:27:13.480 I have.
00:27:13.500 They look very nice.
00:27:14.420 So I, I say to people, you can't expect whoever you elect, you can't just sit back and expect
00:27:22.320 them to do it all.
00:27:23.420 So I say to people in my constituency and everybody I bump into, don't, don't rely totally on the
00:27:29.180 people who are leading.
00:27:30.640 They can lead, but if they get full, full, full of filled with holes by a malign establishment
00:27:36.800 challenge, you've got to challenge.
00:27:39.380 So challenge in your own way.
00:27:41.260 So your local council is supposed to serve you, not you serve them.
00:27:48.220 They're not supposed to be using the powers that a local authority has to, to bully their
00:27:54.400 constituents, which is what's happening.
00:27:56.660 So it's happening in Oxford.
00:27:57.560 If they're not mending your potholes correctly, write them a rude letter, bring them up, make
00:28:03.140 them, make them understand that you're not going to accept it.
00:28:06.760 Equally, if you see things happening, you don't like write your MP.
00:28:10.520 If they start to stand up, if you get petty bureaucracy telling you how to live your life,
00:28:15.420 no, no, stand up to them.
00:28:17.980 Because, you know, if you stand up to a bully, they stop bullying.
00:28:21.780 But if you yield to that bullying, which is what a very decent, civilized British public
00:28:28.120 tend to do, it encourages them.
00:28:30.540 So I say, don't just accept the status quo.
00:28:34.640 If you don't agree with it, say so.
00:28:37.680 And I'm hoping people will start to be more bloody minded, more difficult and demand some
00:28:44.980 value for the local taxes they pay, for the national taxes they pay.
00:28:48.960 I don't know about you, but I seem to pay more and more tax.
00:28:52.140 Don't get me started about taxes.
00:28:53.680 I have HMRC treating me as if I'm a tax evader most of the time.
00:28:57.900 I get, and again, this is another thing that the state does, is it weaponizes the system
00:29:01.940 against people who speak up.
00:29:03.760 So I get a tax investigation most years.
00:29:07.720 I call it vilification, unfair vilification of an honest taxpayer.
00:29:11.840 So far, I mean, and you and I know that the tax code is 21,500 pages long, plays Hong Kong's
00:29:21.480 tax code 500 pages long.
00:29:23.780 So it's like everything in Britain today.
00:29:26.540 There are so many rules, so many regulations, so much licensing, so much oppression of the
00:29:31.260 people that even if you're trying your very best, and I used to be able to do my tax return
00:29:37.440 myself.
00:29:37.980 I no longer can.
00:29:38.840 I have to pay an accountant vast sums of money, because they have the algorithms to
00:29:43.980 try and navigate all these various rules, regulations, laws, mostly that are designed
00:29:49.840 to be contradictory, so that if you do fall out of the establishment, there's always some
00:29:55.900 hook with which they can attack you, and then hold you up as an attacks evader.
00:30:01.500 Well, so far, I've avoided that each year.
00:30:04.960 You get one.
00:30:05.860 It costs money.
00:30:06.660 I am insured most of the time, while I can still get insurance.
00:30:11.840 So these are the things.
00:30:13.160 This is the lawfare that's being used against people who question the system.
00:30:16.440 But if we all do it, they can't do it against everybody.
00:30:19.860 So I say, let's become a little more difficult.
00:30:23.460 That's what I think the honest British taxpaying public should do.
00:30:27.520 And so let's start objecting to the fact that our taxes are being wasted.
00:30:33.980 And I have this view that it's the state that's corrupt now, because if they collect tax from
00:30:39.640 you and I, they have a duty to spend it properly, wisely, sensibly, in our interests, not wasting
00:30:47.220 it on vanity projects like, you know, how much have they wasted on HS2?
00:30:51.600 How much does the DWP waste?
00:30:54.440 I mean, the DWP, the more I ask questions, get answers back, is the most inefficient part
00:30:59.580 of the British state.
00:31:00.640 It's depressing.
00:31:01.040 Handing out money like confetti, Carl, to Warren Sondry.
00:31:04.740 I hate hearing about it.
00:31:06.480 But so I, okay, so I can't help but notice that there's a kind of, you know, you speak
00:31:14.560 about being shot through with bullet holes.
00:31:16.380 But I watched your interview with Emily Maitlis the other day, and I can't help but notice
00:31:21.880 that you seem to be kind of enjoying yourself in that interview, while she was throwing slings
00:31:27.180 and arrows at you.
00:31:28.000 And even now, you're saying, I think we should be a bit more difficult, but you've got a cheeky
00:31:31.140 smile on your face.
00:31:32.920 Is it something you actually hate doing, or is it kind of fun?
00:31:36.720 Well, I think I blame the Dragon School.
00:31:38.840 I went to a school called the Dragon School in Oxford, which is where you had boys and girls,
00:31:45.380 and girls in my day.
00:31:47.560 Shockingly, do you know what we used to call them, Carl?
00:31:49.640 No.
00:31:50.140 They were called hags.
00:31:51.340 You wouldn't dare call them that now.
00:31:53.420 I certainly wouldn't know.
00:31:54.320 If you got kissed at the Dragon School by a girl, you got hagpong.
00:31:57.600 Oh, really?
00:31:58.020 It was shocking.
00:31:58.860 Anyway, so you wouldn't dare do that now.
00:32:01.180 But anyway, there were.
00:32:02.320 I can remember their names now.
00:32:04.240 So at the Dragon, you were taught to challenge authority.
00:32:06.980 So I think a lot of dragons challenge authority.
00:32:10.400 It was a great school.
00:32:12.300 Is it as great as it was?
00:32:13.580 I mean, I'll give you an example.
00:32:16.000 It's gone a bit woke.
00:32:17.440 So I was in a house there called Gungadin, and you know Gungadin was Mr. Kipling.
00:32:23.860 Yes.
00:32:25.200 The Dragon changed the name of Gungadin to Dragon House on the basis that Rudyard Kipling was
00:32:32.560 a colonial racist.
00:32:35.520 I don't know, but he never was.
00:32:39.020 No, he was a very reasonable man.
00:32:40.380 I think Gungadin was considered to be a very good man in his book, from what I remember.
00:32:44.140 I mean, that's literally the line he uses.
00:32:45.660 You're a better man than I, Gungadin.
00:32:46.640 Correct.
00:32:46.860 So they changed the name.
00:32:50.120 So we cancelled our standing orders of the Dragon School.
00:32:52.460 So who knows?
00:32:54.000 Maybe they'll change back to what they used to be.
00:32:55.640 But they did used to post-war.
00:32:57.300 And I think post-war people loved their freedom.
00:33:01.640 They loved the fact we'd fought two world wars.
00:33:04.020 And they fought for the freedom.
00:33:05.880 They fought for freedom.
00:33:07.180 A lot of people who taught us had fought for freedom.
00:33:09.080 One of them had served on the wretched Japanese railway line.
00:33:12.900 Oh, really?
00:33:13.280 Yeah, he was called Parr Denison Smith.
00:33:17.580 And wonderful man.
00:33:19.440 And I think there were a generation of people who did respect individualism.
00:33:23.600 They did respect freedom.
00:33:24.760 They did respect freedom of speech.
00:33:27.120 And they imbued their pupils with that.
00:33:30.380 So I think I was very fortunate.
00:33:33.140 My father said he was brought up in the best period of British history.
00:33:36.660 And he may have been right.
00:33:37.740 He sadly died in November 22, having been born in 1932.
00:33:42.280 And like your father, he was actually in the Air Force during his national service.
00:33:46.600 Right, right.
00:33:49.340 So do I enjoy it?
00:33:51.740 Look, I enjoy mischievous challenge.
00:33:56.120 And I have to tell you that I don't run my businesses as a dictator.
00:34:01.220 I run them because I'm not that clever.
00:34:04.680 And I like to hire people who are cleverer than me, which is not very difficult.
00:34:07.480 And then I find they run properly.
00:34:09.840 But if I try and hire people who are less able than me, they don't run at all.
00:34:14.020 So that's the essence of what I believe.
00:34:17.160 And I've done many things.
00:34:18.360 I've traveled widely.
00:34:20.140 And during my young life, I think Britain was the best place in the world to live.
00:34:24.440 I'm not sure I could say that about it now.
00:34:27.420 And what we've got to do, all of us, before 29, when I think if we don't get change, the country will self-immolate.
00:34:34.780 I think we've all got to fight for what we believe in.
00:34:37.620 And I know you believe in it.
00:34:38.580 And there's a lot of people out there who still believe in it.
00:34:40.600 But it's going to be a fight because the malign forces that don't agree with us have undermined our schools.
00:34:50.340 They have undermined a lot of our institutions.
00:34:53.980 And not least Parliament.
00:34:55.300 As I just said, I don't think Parliament's as functional as it used to be.
00:34:58.440 And our unwritten constitution has always been open to abuse.
00:35:01.440 So it's like, I think it was Maggie who said, you know, freedom is a very fragile commodity.
00:35:10.400 And if you don't fight for it, you very quickly lose it.
00:35:13.180 So I think everybody's got to fight for it themselves.
00:35:15.660 I don't believe in this concept of a dictatorial leader delivering freedom.
00:35:23.160 That, again, is another oxymoron.
00:35:25.640 Well, it's a very European view of freedom, isn't it?
00:35:27.760 Don't talk to me about Europe.
00:35:29.500 I love Europe.
00:35:31.020 I love going there.
00:35:32.040 My wife and I love walking in Italy.
00:35:33.760 We love walking the beer, Francigena.
00:35:35.600 We love the food in Italy.
00:35:37.280 We love the Italian people.
00:35:38.640 But they've been destroyed by the Euro, as have many of the other proud independent nations with their own identity.
00:35:47.040 I spent my teenage years growing up in Germany on a British camp.
00:35:51.160 And you'd go back and forth.
00:35:52.520 And I had lots of German friends.
00:35:54.080 And the thing that really I just came away with was I never want to be governed by Germans.
00:35:59.800 They just think differently to us.
00:36:01.700 They're very much more rules focused.
00:36:03.760 And they're very much not the sort of people who believe in the kind of individual liberty that the English believe.
00:36:09.000 Exactly.
00:36:09.320 And the French, the best evening I ever had at my club was when David Starkey gave a speech about our relationship with the French.
00:36:16.680 And he opened with, the French are our enemy.
00:36:19.700 Why do we try and suggest otherwise?
00:36:22.260 So, again, I think we have to suck with a long spoon with the French.
00:36:26.420 And I think you only have to look at what, I mean, I personally, I know I think they're bust.
00:36:31.420 And I think they are obviously cocksure.
00:36:35.180 They're very different to us.
00:36:36.620 And look, render unto Europe what is Europe's, but let's not be governed by this European sort of concept of life, which, as you know, I mean, Napoleon was the first one to try and impose an EC on us, based in Paris with a French franc.
00:36:55.260 And, you know, with his sort of idea of a European Union being one based on conquest, which is, as I just said, not something we've ever tried to do.
00:37:05.620 We could have done it, but we never have.
00:37:07.040 We want to trade freely.
00:37:08.560 We respect other people's sovereignty.
00:37:11.120 But when I was in the European Parliament, I could see it, you know.
00:37:14.300 And I think ultimately, Carl, Germany doesn't trust France.
00:37:19.760 France doesn't just trust Germany.
00:37:21.500 And the reason for the EU is to stop the two of them getting at each other's throats again, which is usually the genesis of most of the troubles in Europe.
00:37:29.600 So moving back to Britain very quickly, it seems to me that Tony Blair and the New Labour Project was an attempt to Europeanize Britain by installing, as you described it, the unaccountable bureaucracy.
00:37:45.380 And allowing the politicians to essentially offload responsibility to the bureaucrats, the quangocracy, whatever you want to call it.
00:37:55.180 Is it your intention to do what you can to remove these things from power?
00:38:01.580 Well, Tony Blair, as you know, I discount John Major as a sort of blip.
00:38:06.820 He should never have won that 92 election with his soapbox.
00:38:09.800 And we would have had Neil Kinnock and probably that would have been the end of socialism.
00:38:12.860 That could have been it.
00:38:14.220 I don't know if you remember that rally where they were playing loud music thinking they had it in the bag.
00:38:18.760 And somehow John Major won it by 15 seats, which he should never have done.
00:38:24.400 I think it was 15 seats from then on.
00:38:25.720 I was a bit young, to be honest.
00:38:26.980 So let's ignore Major.
00:38:28.380 But I mean, ultimately, Tony Blair, the genesis of most of our problems, you can lay at the door of Tony Blair, Gordon Brown, Peter Mandelson, Alistair Campbell and Derry Irving.
00:38:40.440 And then Cameron, for some extraordinary reason, seemed to approve of what they did.
00:38:45.480 So he tried to do a bit more himself, you know, with the Bribery Act and various other things.
00:38:48.940 So he was, in my view, a huge disappointment, as was Osborne.
00:38:54.720 But Tony Blair's the genesis with all these, as you say, these laws and rules and regulations, which I think distorted the British Constitution.
00:39:04.220 And as you say, created the quangos, the unelected bureaucrats who are still funded by the British taxpayer, who have complicated our law.
00:39:13.560 Arguably, what they did with the Supreme Court undermined the basis of English justice.
00:39:21.640 And I'm, you know, English justice now probably needs to be reformed again.
00:39:28.280 As you probably know, he played a big part in devolution, which I think was all part of the cunning plan of the European Union to destroy the proudest sovereign nation in Europe, which was us.
00:39:40.940 So if you can create, I think they created us into five regions, I think I'm right in saying, but they also devolve power, you know, the Scottish Parliament and the Senate.
00:39:51.400 And they were trying to sort of, at every point, disempower Westminster.
00:39:56.160 That was part of their plan.
00:39:59.000 And Blair, another lawyer, not a good lawyer, I don't think.
00:40:03.280 That's what I've heard.
00:40:03.840 He was a lawyer.
00:40:07.080 You know, at the end of the day, he, and he's a likely lad, you know, you've got to give him credit for the fact that he is a hugely, hugely effective salesman.
00:40:15.820 He's a brilliant politician.
00:40:16.480 I think he's a brilliant politician.
00:40:17.980 He was very, very believable.
00:40:20.100 And, you know, a lot of people who you would never have expected to vote Labour, in 97, they did vote Labour.
00:40:27.640 Hence, we got Tony Blair in tears on the door of Downing Street, playing Things Can Only Get Better, or whatever they were playing at the time, and everybody felt good.
00:40:36.720 And then we got Cool Britannia and all the other rubbish.
00:40:38.580 But, no, so I lay a lot of the issues at their door, and I think if we, by 29, if what I call the common sense wing of Britain can establish itself, and we can win an election under the right leadership, we need to start with a great repeal act, which has to repeal a lot of this malign legislation.
00:41:02.160 Can you give me a list of things you do?
00:41:03.300 Well, things like, I mean, on my list, probably the Race Relations Act has to go.
00:41:08.580 Probably the 97 Human Rights Act, which embeds within the ECHR.
00:41:15.000 Very definitely the Equality Act, which has to go.
00:41:19.940 As I mentioned, the Bribery Act, the Supreme Court needs to be sorted out.
00:41:23.240 But I think we need a list of, we need a plan now to repeal, repeal, repeal.
00:41:28.820 I just have, I happen to have a ready plan.
00:41:31.100 We need to get rid of the Supreme Court.
00:41:32.340 We need to get rid of the devolved assemblies.
00:41:34.120 Sounds like we're in rude agreement.
00:41:35.420 No, we are.
00:41:36.100 The Communications Act is reforming.
00:41:37.100 Well, I'm a devolution.
00:41:37.740 Nigel gave me a rocket, because I gave a speech at the summer rally last September, where
00:41:44.660 he told me I spoke for too long, so I spoke for 23 minutes.
00:41:47.180 But I did offer to show him my speech.
00:41:49.480 He said he never writes one.
00:41:50.540 Well, I write my speeches, because I like a bit of history and a few quotes in it.
00:41:54.940 And I did say, I mean, my view would be, let's reverse devolution.
00:42:00.340 Let's return power to Westminster.
00:42:01.600 The whole thing has to be changed.
00:42:02.300 Let's be what we should be, which is one country.
00:42:04.540 So I do think the strength of this country is, as the act of union, we are one nation, and we should behave as one nation.
00:42:14.080 And, you know, the Brexit deal, through the Northern Ireland Protocol, and then latterly the Windsor Agreement, actually has, if you like, carved out a piece of Britain.
00:42:25.200 And we know why it was done.
00:42:28.060 It was done because Michel Barnier thought he'd keep a hook on board our ship.
00:42:32.980 Worst case, they get a united Ireland.
00:42:35.560 Best case, they hook us back into the EU.
00:42:37.920 We all know what the game was.
00:42:39.140 But, unfortunately, Carl, the bureaucrats negotiating Brexit, which they'd been told to do by the British electorate, didn't believe in what they were doing.
00:42:48.600 So they were doing their best to frustrate the instructions of the 17.4 million people who voted to take back our sovereignty.
00:42:57.520 See, this is one of the major points that's always frustrating me about Brexit.
00:43:00.880 And you see people arguing against the concept of Brexit on the consequences of anti-Brexiteers running the show.
00:43:11.180 So, I mean, for example, I was pointing out to people, well, Ireland has a corporate tax of 12.5%.
00:43:17.620 We have 25%.
00:43:19.640 That can't be accidental.
00:43:21.520 There's exactly half of us.
00:43:22.800 Well, let me tell you what happened there, as you probably know.
00:43:24.960 So Ireland was, it basically had a massive property boom and then a bust.
00:43:31.840 So, again, my view of it is that Ireland, despite all these so-called rules and laws and regulations, I mean, it's a bit like sort of France going into the EU and hiding a lot of their deficits through, I think it was French Telecom Pension Fund or something.
00:43:49.440 But anyway, Ireland needed to be rebuilt.
00:43:52.540 So how did they rebuild Ireland?
00:43:53.720 I'll tell you how they did it.
00:43:54.880 They set up a tax arbitrage.
00:43:57.460 So they allowed Ireland to have the lowest rate of corporation tax in the EU.
00:44:01.760 And guess what happened?
00:44:02.840 Everybody based themselves in Ireland.
00:44:04.540 Oh, I know.
00:44:04.980 And Ireland got rich again, which it is now.
00:44:07.520 So why aren't we doing the same thing?
00:44:08.680 So, well, again, this is part of my issue with Nigel.
00:44:13.680 I thought we should have a plan.
00:44:15.400 We should have policies.
00:44:16.480 We should tell people what we were going to do.
00:44:19.220 We should have a shadow cabinet.
00:44:20.980 This is the genesis of the issues between us.
00:44:23.100 Yes.
00:44:23.760 I told him.
00:44:24.320 I mean, I think I played a part with him and with the other reformed people.
00:44:30.060 And it's not just Nigel or me or anybody.
00:44:32.760 It's a whole group of like-minded people who believe in what we were trying to achieve.
00:44:36.200 But we need a plan.
00:44:40.020 And I wanted the lowest corporation tax in Europe, which would have been 12.5%, as you're quite right to say.
00:44:46.460 Then you'll get capital formation in the UK.
00:44:48.820 You'll get people coming to set up businesses here.
00:44:51.160 See, I'm not an economist, but this is just very straightforward.
00:44:53.040 But why wouldn't we do that?
00:44:54.300 Why would we charge our students so much for their student debt?
00:45:00.140 Why do we encourage them to go and do these degrees which qualify them for nothing?
00:45:06.260 And when you look at the book, you know, we have a big apprenticeship scheme.
00:45:08.920 Why aren't we training people for a career that's actually going to give them a life skill that they can always fall back on?
00:45:16.280 I mean, would you rather learn to be a plumber or an electrician or some other, or an engineer, something real?
00:45:22.640 Or would you rather go and do a degree in humanities or some other?
00:45:26.200 Well, if it helps, I actually did do a degree in humanities.
00:45:28.740 Yeah, but from what did you?
00:45:29.980 I didn't know that.
00:45:30.400 I did philosophy.
00:45:30.920 From what might have been a poly in the old days and now call themselves a university.
00:45:35.360 Yeah, I did recently, actually, a philosophy degree at Birkbeck.
00:45:38.860 I wasn't having a go at you, Colin.
00:45:39.960 No, no, no, I know, but I'm not the normal case.
00:45:42.980 Do you use what you learn?
00:45:44.560 Oh, yeah, absolutely.
00:45:45.220 Every day here.
00:45:46.520 It's been incredibly useful.
00:45:48.620 But I'm not the normal case.
00:45:50.960 Most people aren't going to follow the trajectory I've followed.
00:45:53.820 I've kind of stumbled into it by accident, to be honest.
00:45:56.520 So this was never a plan for me.
00:45:58.320 It happens to have fortuitously come about.
00:46:00.960 But no, I completely agree with you.
00:46:02.660 For some reason, I remember this when I was young.
00:46:05.000 I first went to university.
00:46:06.080 There are many worse ones than humanities.
00:46:07.940 I picked a bad example, Colin.
00:46:09.340 You did, I think, actually.
00:46:10.780 But there's always been a, since the Blair era, there's been a general animus against
00:46:16.040 practical education in apprenticeships and any trade education.
00:46:21.980 And I find this to be abominable, because my family's working class, and most of them
00:46:25.780 are in trade, and they're doing very well.
00:46:28.740 And why would we not want to project this world?
00:46:32.240 Because most people aren't actually very academic.
00:46:35.260 Most people are just normal.
00:46:37.160 Well, I'm full of praise, because we've got electrical, mechanical, and data contracting
00:46:41.520 businesses.
00:46:42.100 And I'm full of praise for people.
00:46:44.220 What they do is incredibly complex.
00:46:45.920 Of course.
00:46:46.160 It's very, very skilled.
00:46:48.040 And arguably, you know, they are not rewarded sufficiently, in my view, for the skill set
00:46:54.580 they've got, which we will always need.
00:46:56.680 Whereas the people sitting doing theoretical jobs involving the law or other professions,
00:47:04.620 which again, comes back to public school, which we were talking about, because public
00:47:09.400 schools taught you that trade was bad.
00:47:11.140 And the professions are good.
00:47:13.700 So hence, we have a country that tends to think that way, because that's what people
00:47:18.820 were taught.
00:47:20.040 And I don't agree with that.
00:47:21.380 I think, you know, we've got people who've worked for us all their lives, who came through
00:47:27.440 as apprentices.
00:47:28.440 And I'm full of praise for their skill set.
00:47:32.260 They're unbelievably skilled.
00:47:33.700 And, you know, look at the building projects now.
00:47:37.020 Look at the complexity of them.
00:47:38.360 Look at the mathematics, the engineering.
00:47:41.420 Look at all the skills that need to go into building the channel, you know, the channel
00:47:45.360 tunnel or, you know, HS2, whatever, these big projects, the seven bridge or whatever it
00:47:51.740 is.
00:47:52.240 Hugely skilled.
00:47:53.040 So, and I think our society doesn't value that sufficiently.
00:47:59.040 So I, again, I encourage people, don't go and do some degree that's not going to be
00:48:05.520 of any good to you longer term.
00:48:07.720 Go and do an apprenticeship.
00:48:09.540 I actually, we call it now, it's not apprenticeship, we call it the academy and we actually try and
00:48:14.140 train people.
00:48:15.120 A bit like when I was at Southampton Football Club, that was the essence of the academy
00:48:18.140 there is we, we had to bring in people with football talent, but you also have to set them
00:48:22.640 up for the possibility that they may not make it in football and therefore they need
00:48:26.840 to make it in life.
00:48:28.040 If you, if you set yourself up to make it one thing and you, and you don't, you then, you
00:48:32.560 then need to be set up.
00:48:33.640 You need a safety net.
00:48:34.620 Yes.
00:48:35.340 So look, I, and again, these apprenticeship schemes, isn't the apprenticeship levy now
00:48:39.740 and there's so much wrong with accessing that money.
00:48:43.780 Like all government schemes, they talk about it in parliament.
00:48:46.600 Say what a wonderful idea it is, but actually number one, they forget about it a week later
00:48:52.360 and number two, it's virtually impossible to access a lot of this money because as we
00:48:56.560 know, the state is now a hungry beast that's eating its head off at our expense.
00:49:00.840 See, this is, this has always been the issue.
00:49:03.480 When Napoleon described us as a nation of shopkeepers, I always regarded that as possibly the highest
00:49:08.500 compliment.
00:49:09.440 Indeed.
00:49:09.680 What he's suggesting is a nation of self-made, self-directing men who are competent and capable
00:49:15.720 of running their own businesses, running their own lives.
00:49:18.640 And this is just one of the, this is why I say to people, if you want, if you want self-direction,
00:49:27.840 being a tradesman is a pretty much a guaranteed way for your entire life that you'll have independence.
00:49:31.580 But don't you think, again, that vast number of people who run their own businesses, I think
00:49:38.400 Emily Thornberry called them sort of people with England flags outside their houses.
00:49:43.340 Yes, that's me, yes.
00:49:44.240 These to me, they're the actual backbone of Britain.
00:49:48.580 And shouldn't we, shouldn't we make their life easier?
00:49:51.220 Yes.
00:49:51.460 Shouldn't we get rid of all this IR35 nonsense?
00:49:54.820 Shouldn't we, shouldn't we actually encourage them to become individuals who trade in their
00:50:01.360 own name, become principals, not agents, become proud stakeholders of Britain?
00:50:07.540 Well, not, not sort of what I call, you know, either statist or corporatist liggers, as I call
00:50:14.960 them, which is what happens when you get big companies.
00:50:17.520 Again, big companies, the big corporates are just as bad as big government, really.
00:50:20.620 Oh, yes.
00:50:21.340 But so.
00:50:21.880 And what are they, Carl?
00:50:22.620 What are they to do what they are?
00:50:24.480 They've been formed on the back of the pensions of the baby boomers.
00:50:29.800 So again, as the baby boomers require that money, some of these companies aren't going
00:50:36.260 to be quite as secure as they were before.
00:50:37.880 So things are going to change naturally, I think.
00:50:40.860 But have you considered that a nation of independent, smart and free-minded people don't grow a bureaucracy?
00:50:47.860 They don't want one.
00:50:48.820 I know.
00:50:49.380 Why should they fund one?
00:50:51.000 Precisely.
00:50:51.640 They don't work very well for the internationalist corporate global agenda.
00:50:57.060 No.
00:50:57.420 Do they?
00:50:57.980 No.
00:50:58.260 And I think really that's the ultimate issue, isn't it?
00:51:01.300 Here we come back to why can't we have a group of cooperating nation states?
00:51:07.960 That's got to be with accountable parliaments.
00:51:10.780 Yes.
00:51:11.020 And high-minded individuals who run their own businesses who demand of those people running
00:51:16.880 the country.
00:51:17.780 We haven't got that.
00:51:19.460 I agree.
00:51:20.100 Rupert, this has been a wonderful conversation.
00:51:21.900 Thank you so much for coming in.
00:51:23.160 My pleasure.
00:51:23.920 I'm delighted.
00:51:24.680 I'll come in anytime.
00:51:25.760 Oh, brilliant.
00:51:26.320 We'll definitely have you back.
00:51:27.120 Thanks for joining us, folks.
00:51:28.140 We'll see you next time.
00:51:28.740 Pleasure.
00:51:29.040 We'll see you next time.
00:51:43.700 We'll see you next time.