PREVIEW： Brokenomics ｜ Dark Triad Economics with Richard Grannon
Episode Stats
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Summary
In this episode of Brokonomics, I speak to Richard Grannon, PhD, about the dark triad behaviour that is manifesting in our political and economic system. We talk about his background in psychology, martial arts, mental health and parenting.
Transcript
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Hello and welcome to Brokonomics. Now, as you know, my main thesis on Brokonomics is that the
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system is broken and the system is made up of people. So possibly some of the people are broken
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leading to a system which is also broken. So I thought, who do I know who can talk about
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that sort of stuff? And that's when I turned to my favourite YouTube psychologist, Richard Grannon.
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Thank you very much for coming in. Wanted to have you in for a long time.
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So tell us a little bit about yourself. Why are you the man to speak to about the dark
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triad behaviour that is manifesting from our political and economic system?
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Well, my background is in psychology. I am a psychology graduate, but it was a behavioural
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psychology degree. So we did nothing to do with personality disorders. And then I spent
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How is behavioural psychology different to basic psychology?
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So if you wanted to... Well, behavioural psychology, they're only really interested
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in that which can be seen or measured. It's behaviour only. So you'd put lots of rats in T-shaped
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mazes and try and incentivise them to go left or right.
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There's an awful lot of that. So it's the... I suppose you could say it's the hard...
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It's the side of psychology that tries to be a hard science.
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So it's very scientific, if I'd say it that way.
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Yeah, measurable. Now my thing, my interest is really Freud, Jung, Adler, psychoanalytic
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theory. And it's from that place that largely speaking, the notion of personality disorders
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comes from. It's a largely Freudian concept, the idea of narcissism. And so over the years,
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when I was teaching self-defence, people started to ask me to teach about emotional self-defence.
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So I was already blending psychology with self-defence because I had a psychology background
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to teach people to be prepared for real world violence. And then the instructors that I was
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speaking to, they would ask me questions. They would say, oh, can I ask you about my wife?
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What can I ask you about my kids? And then that grew into a project that was more focused
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on childhood trauma, PTSD, and then it's manifestations in psychopathy and narcissistic
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What forms did you focus on in your martial arts?
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Oh, gosh. Started out with Shito Rukarati, moved to spirit combat jiu-jitsu, did Tagakari
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rune ninjitsu for a few years, Aikido, Judo, shifted over to Muay Thai. Then when MMA got
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big, we called it valetudo or shoot fighting before the term MMA was born. So this is back
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in the 90s. Boxing, wrestling, Silat, I've done some Wing Chun, some Tai Chi, some Qigong,
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If you had to pick one, I would go with boxing because even though it is the least sophisticated
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of all the ones you mentioned, it is so immediate.
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Do you mean pick one for a brawl in the pub kind of a thing?
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Well, I mean, if you lived in a rough area and you had a 13-year-old son who you were worried
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who had to look after himself, I think I'd go with boxing because it's just right there
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straight away. Whereas the other ones, you can get to a higher level, but the curve is
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One of my, as I've aged, one of my favourite disciplines is now boxing. Because when I was
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younger, I didn't really think, I did it because I had to do it. It's part of combat
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sports. And if you couldn't box, people would think you're an idiot. But then the puzzle
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of boxing, because it's quite an interesting puzzle to try and solve, has become more fascinating
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to me. I actually have a TBI from boxing, so I can't hard spar anymore. I can only tap
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Yeah. I split the bag around my brain, sparring. But boxing, I love. If I had a 13-year-old
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son, probably Muay Thai, just because of the clinching. So he'd have his hands and then
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he'd be able to clinch a knee. And sometimes, I used to do nightclub security. If you kick
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someone in the leg, it doesn't look that bad on CCTV. The police don't mind. But it could
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stop them. They could be like, because it's a shock.
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Yeah, it's Boxing Plus. So my favourite would be, there's actually a style in Brazil, it's
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called Shoot Box. Vandele Silva came from it. So they sort of had the boxing format, and
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then they put on the elbows, the clinching, the knees, and the kicks for an MMA environment.
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I've done a couple of classes. I've taught in Krav schools. So my main thing, I said self
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defence, but you would know this, it was combatives. So they were our cousins. The Krav guys would
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do drills like this, we would take from them, they would take from us.
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Krav did kind of change my psychology, because I got quite into that. I mean, I was even going
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to go, this was before COVID, I was going to go over to Israel, because it's from Israel,
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and spend a couple of weeks out there with those guys. But COVID, it never happened in
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the end. But I mean, Krav is just so brutal. I mean, it's just, you can't spar it. It's
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immediately eyes and throats and knees and stuff like that.
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Yes. And as I started to learn it, I would find, if it ever looked like I might be in
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a situation, I would be defusing it. Because, I mean, more than I normally would, just because
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I didn't want to have to do that stuff, if it came to it.
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Yes. I mean, you could find yourself in a lot of legal trouble. So the perfect thing for
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me now would be people who were athletic enough to survive combat sports. So they're
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scratch boxers, grapplers, they can wrestle, they can do the takedowns, nothing fancy, but
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you can cope. And then that would be 20% of the training and 80% of the training, if
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it's for the street, would be combatives. So Krav style. But yes, when I was teaching
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it, eventually we split it. We said, here's what we do. If somebody's broken into your
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house at four o'clock in the morning, you're going to kill them or try to as quickly as
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you can. And then here's the control and restraint for if you just, I don't know, somebody's
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drunk at a party and you just need to put them on the floor. And then we would drill
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Yeah. I remember once one of my instructors, he was teaching us all these forms. I think
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it was taekwondo. And he pulled a few of us aside at one time and he said, look, all
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this stuff is great. If somebody's really trying to kill you, don't worry about any of
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this. Just get your thumb and drive it as far into the top of the eye socket as you can.
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Basically, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If you're really, really struggling. I have unfortunately
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used that a couple of times. I mean, hopefully you should never get to that point.
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You should never. You've really messed up at multiple levels of redundancy to get to that
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point. But I put myself there. I was doing nightclub security in Tenerife. So I could find
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myself in situations of extreme pressure where you can end up being kicked to death. And that
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was where in the combative style of thing, you would be looking at what causes the maximum
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amount of injury with the least amount of calories burnt on your behalf. You're right.
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You can't spar it. So we'd have to find drills where you could ingrain it into your physiology
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without hurting your training partners. I mean, because it's just a stamp on somebody's knee
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and then hit them in the throat. You just can't do it. These are permanent injuries. So
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yeah. Yeah. That was the style. Right. We went slightly sideways. We slightly did. But if
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boys are watching this, they'll love it. They'll be like, that's great. That's all awesome. But
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I do like this stuff. So I had to deviate onto that. So yes, the confluence of psychology
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and markets, it's not talked about that much, is it?
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It's not. But I've had this suspicion for years and I've always thought, God, I'd love
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to bring. So I do get a chance to speak to professors of psychology and philosophy. Some
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of them are mates, Professor Ed Dutton and Dr. Paul Taylor. So if I have something, I can
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reach out to them and I think, God, I really need an economist. That is not something you
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hear a lot. No, it's not. God, I need an economist. Someone
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please give me an economist. I mean, when society collapses, I don't think the economists
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are going to have a particularly good time. And the reason why is because obviously I love
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psychology, but I can see the limitations. It individualized. It puts the problem in the
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individual. And it's very, very rare that if I'm depressed, that it's just purely my individual
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trauma, purely my individual genetics. It's a group.
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Well, I mean, you must have seen those charts that show sort of societal level happiness.
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I mean, the women's one is the most extreme one. I mean, they've gone from basically being
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happy pre-war to incredibly unhappy, but I mean, it's happened to everybody.
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So women are experiencing far higher levels of unhappiness than men.
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Yes, self-reported happiness. I mean, it's declined for everybody in the West, but women
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That's very interesting because I think they're more susceptible to the men as a generalization,
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as a generalization, more susceptible than men to what's happening in the collective.
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Well, I suppose that also, and the fact that, I mean, we must be a similar age, but the messaging
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that I remember being put out to women when we were young was very much, if you are, you
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know, if you are a stay at home mum, that means you're a failure.
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And you must get out there into the workforce and strap yourself into an office chair.
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And I kind of just internalized this because it was the universal messaging and we didn't
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We just had, you know, the message that came through media and schools and all the rest
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And then I noticed as I went through my career, the women just started dropping off.
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And I'd be kind of surprised and say, why are you doing this?
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And it was like, yeah, but I don't want to do this.
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As far back as 2015, I was in Malaysia, which is a majority, well, it's a Muslim country,
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And one of my friends, we met in a shopping mall and she was very upset and she was crying.
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We'd had a long conversation and she started crying.
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And she said, all I want is to be a mother and have children.
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I said, you're a 28 year old Muslim girl in a Muslim country.
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And I was like, this poison, this poison, it's everywhere.
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I mean, from my point of view, Islam has a limited number of appeal points, but its total
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repudiation of feminism is definitely one of them.
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Well, and, and, and if they can't, if they can't hold it back, I would just say, who's,
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Because what I would say, so I, I lived in the East, uh, for maybe a total of four, four
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And I would come back and people would say things like, Oh, in the West, it's like this.
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If they have wifi Instagram and they know who the Kardashians are, they're in the West.
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And I'm like, what do you think is happening in Muslim countries in the Middle East to the
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The, the predominant ideology, and it's back to economics again, is really downstream of
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Well, if you hold on your point there, I think what's happened is, so I talked about
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If you go back pre-war and there were surveys done at the time, um, that asked people, you
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know, what is your highest ideals in life and making money was very low down the list.
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So I think, I think the, the surveys I've seen, they, they gave you the top 10 and making
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money was on the list, but it was like ninth or 10th, right down the bottom.
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And at the top, it was things like, um, basically live a rewarding life.
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It was, it was all, it was all community orientated goals right at the top and money was at the
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And if you look at it, those same surveys today, it's flipped the other way around.
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Now it's, you know, being a upstanding member of your community.
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Um, I don't think it even makes the top 10 anymore.
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It's right at the bottom and making money has gone right to the top.
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That's really interesting and really depressing.
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And, um, I, uh, if, if you could send me some of these to look at afterwards, I'd be really
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So this is where I would, this, I really need an economist phrase kicks in.
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I can bluff my way in philosophy, but then I just have this strong sense.
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Um, that what's happening psychologically, philosophically, meaning people's worldview,
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just the world, the way they see the world philosophy at that level, like a moral code
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is influenced by factors that we're not talking about.
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So, so what's on stage is childhood trauma and microaggressions and, um, issues around
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And then I look and I go, but the microaggressions, the woke, the, the, the, the identity politics.
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You have to have quite a lot of disposable wealth to be wringing your hands.
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Well, let, let me, let me build out that point about, um, the change in economics behavior
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A lot of, a lot of the economic stuff drives essentially from, um, demographic change is
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And, and by that, um, I don't just mean, um, people, the, the, the demographic change
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that came from immigration is a, is a later effect, but basically the size of populations
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The, the, and the other one, um, is the introduction of the fiat money system post-war, which, which turned
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money from being something scarce to money being something which is abundant.
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And when money becomes abundant, everything else becomes scarce.
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We were, we were, I thought we were fiat before the second mole war.
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So I think in 1913, 15, something like that, the UK came off a gold standard.
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Um, but in the early days, it was a fairly muted effect and the dollar was still on the
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And since the dollar was the dominant currency, that kind of set the tone of things.
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Post-war, I mean, what, basically what happened in the war is, is all the gold ended up going
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Partly as a function of the fact that everybody else was fighting a massive war and they were
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So they earned it, but also people just sent it there for safekeeping.
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Because if you're France and you think things might get a bit dicey, the first thing you
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do is you send all your gold over to America, where it's comfortably out of the way.
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We got to the end of the war and somebody, probably an American, thought, eh, maybe we
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And so they needed to come up for justification why they needed to hang on to all of the gold.
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And the explanation given was, okay, well, we've got a large, powerful navy now.
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What we will do is we will hold on to the gold.
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So the whole rationale for all of this is protecting international shipping and trade
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The dollar can be the global currency and the dollar will be pegged to gold.
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So is this the beginning of the Team America World Police scenario?
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Because I found out when I was living in Asia that Asian security and the prevention of
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And if we pulled them out, it was like, yeah, China would just take everything.
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So that comes from the opportunity they saw post-World War to move people to a fair currency.
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Well, if you've got a whole bunch of gold, you've got most of the world's gold.
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So we then went on this, the dollar became the global currency system, pegged to gold.
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And that works perfectly fine, pegging to gold, as long as you behave like you're pegged
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Which basically means you don't spend more than you earn.
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First thing they did, started spending more than they earned.
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And so they kept on creating new dollars because they were spending more than they earned
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Money which is backed by the promises of politicians.
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And so they created more dollars in order to finance the spending.
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And then people started to get tiny bit suspicious that the dollar was not in fact backed
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The French said, yeah, I think you guys, I think you guys are flagging it.
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And of course, once one country does it, everybody's like, okay, there's an issue here.
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He basically realized that he had no choice apart from unpegging it and making the dollar
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The morning after he did that, surprise announcement, markets absolutely shot up.
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But the reason they did that is because stocks are things divided by pieces of paper.
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And the president has just said, I'm removing the only cap on the amount of pieces of paper
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So therefore, everything which is a thing now needs to get re-denominated by a larger number.
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Therefore, the unit denomination of these things has to go up.
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And that created a system where, well, basically the amount of money would expand.
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But if you start creating debt in order to create more money, well, you've got a problem then.
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So even if you pay off the loan, well, where does the interest come from?
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And you get in a situation where you get this continual growing bubble.
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What that basically means is you put that on a compound.
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And what you find is that money becomes increasingly abundant.
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Whereas pre-war, money was relatively scarce, but things were abundant.
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I mean, well, you know what it was like speaking to your grandparents.
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You know, they would go out at 14, get an electrical apprenticeship.
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And on the way back from securing that, they would go and buy a house and get married and all the rest of it.
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Whereas these days, you can be a 37-year-old lawyer and really struggling to get your first house.
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Because money has become so abundant that it doesn't really have that much value anymore.
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So people have had to shift into basically a scarcity mindset, which means they desperately need to accumulate more and more of this melting ice cube.
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So that, I think, is driving the phenomenon that you talked about just before I got into all of this, which people have to do this.
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Was there ever a chance, say we go back to 1972 and Nixon is having a conversation with, I don't know, eight people who are advising him.
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Was there ever a chance that this wouldn't completely ruin the system?
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Was there any way that it wouldn't, that he wasn't signing?
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Well, as long as you keep the game going, it works.
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So if you were to say to me, what do the policies look like of the UK, of USA, of the modern Western liberal democratic countries, so-called, as far as the long-term plan goes?
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And I've always thought, I don't think there is a long-term plan.
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I think they're kicking a can down the road and just praying that the next person who comes into power deals with it.
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So, I mean, in answer to the point, was it obvious immediately that this was going to lead to ruin?
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And there was a whole bunch of people who understood it and immediately packed up for the hills.
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They loaded up their, what the Americans call it, station wagons or whatever it is.
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They loaded up their station wagon with tins of beans, shotguns.
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I mean, James Stellingpole got in touch with me because he was a bit worried.
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Because his son's going to university and he's apparently sharing a dorm with some guy
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who's doing finance and is very, very good on the math stuff.
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And he was like, this system is going to collapse.
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There's mathematically no other solution than this thing going to collapse.
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It's a mathematical certainty that it will collapse.
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But as long as you can keep the plates spinning and you can keep adding more plates.
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So, if you ever go to Cirque du Soleil or something and they do the plate spinning,
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And you sit there as the audience member thinking, oh, they're definitely going to drop one in a minute.
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And they get another plate and they keep doing it.
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But it is a mathematical certainty that if they didn't at some point stop that and move on to the next act of, you know,
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Trampesians or whatever the hell it was, that one person would not be able to grow forever with the amount of plates that they could spin.
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And at some point there would just be hundreds of them and they couldn't possibly do it.
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And it's, well, I suppose at some level it's physics, isn't it?
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It has to have a point at which it just bursts.
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So then, I don't want to digress too far, but it just occurred to me, if you're running a system politically and you can see you're at the, I don't know, you're voted into power tomorrow and they take you into a room.
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Let's imagine where it's like the room out here that controls what's happening here.
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You can see in real time, the numbers moving and you have your hands physically on levers of power that don't exist.
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I wonder what that does to people's, their commitment to the job.
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Is this why we have so much political degeneracy?
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I wonder if that creates this sort of nihilism.
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Well, I mean, you can pick up a lot of this from interviews with politicians post being in office.
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Because we've all noticed that politicians talk a good game before they're elected.
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The moment they become elected, all of a sudden, they just do exactly what the last guy did.
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And, I mean, a whole bunch of them talked about this, but I'm thinking of George Osborne, in this respect.
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He came in and he was like, he wanted to cut government because he ideologically believed in cutting government and all the right things and all that kind of stuff.
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And he's talked about how he was basically, exactly what you said, which was taken aside and said, yeah, but if you do that, this will happen.
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And if we were to reset the system long term, it would be enormously beneficial.
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Politicians are elected for the short term and not the long term.
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Then don't we need a violent revolution and 10 years of dictatorship for the transition?
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I mean, this is part of the reason why I've come around so much on Bitcoin.
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Because regardless of whether it's Bitcoin or whether it's something else, it could be gold for this purpose.
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If you're going to replace one financial system, you're going to need to have another one waiting in the wings.
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Because if you were to go back to 2008, gold had been demonetized effectively.
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And gold is really difficult to use as money in a modern world because you've got to put it on a boat and ship it.
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Or you do what they used to do, which is you have it in a vault under the Bank of England.
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And what happens is when China trades with India, you know, messages go back and then every so often somebody wheels out a pallet of gold from the Chinese vault and puts it in the Indian vault.
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In order to have a global system to make it all work.
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The problem with that is in this modern world, is China, India, Russia, et cetera, going to be perfectly happy for all their gold to be sat in a vault below the Bank of England so that they can do their international trade?
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So are you going to let every single central bank hold their own gold, which they will insist on doing?
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Do you say, I would like to order, you know, whatever it is, a quadrillion tons of steel.
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Are you going to go, okay, well, I guess they say they've got it.
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So that's why I've come around so much on Bitcoin.
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But one of the notions with that is, is that everybody who's using fiat currency, more and more people are using Bitcoin.
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At some point they will cross and you can step off from one elevator to the other and then one can plunge into the sea and the other one can go up.
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What that will mean is that all the people who refuse to get off one system are just going to lose everything.
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But at least you have an alternative so you can save perhaps half or the majority or whatever number it is at that point.
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What I said before about the country going into dictatorship for the transition, in a global economy, obviously that wouldn't do much.
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Every country across the globe needs to commit to it, right?
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I mean, we kind of see an example of this with BRICS at the moment.
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And the traditional, most other economists would look at that and say, well, look, it's a disaster for Russia because their GDP is declining, all that kind of stuff.
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When you measure it in industrial output, energy produced, agricultural output, if you measure it in the way that we used to measure economies.
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Actually, BRICS is doing, in fact, if you look at BRICS, I mean, they've got the majority of the world's commodities, energy, agricultural output and population.
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The only thing they don't have at the moment is the majority of the innovation that's still taking place in America.
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If they were to ever get, and it would be harder for them because of their, culturally, it's harder for them to innovate.
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They tend to be a lot more hierarchical and this stuff.
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If they could ever get that, you know, sanctioning them would be, well, I mean, it's already absurd because they've got the majority of all of these things that I mentioned, which is very difficult.
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And actually, the other thing I'll make up the point on with growth of the system is that it's worse for countries like the US and the UK.
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Because if you think about it, then America has a global system.
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If you're Sri Lanka and you want to buy diesel, you need dollars to trade internationally to buy diesel.
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And that is exactly why Sri Lanka collapsed what it was two and a half years ago, three years ago.
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The reason they collapsed is because they ran out of dollars.
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Well, their farmers couldn't put diesel in the tractors.
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It meant that their delivery drivers couldn't put diesel in their delivery vans.
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And so the economy collapsed and the government collapsed.
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And you saw those scenes of the president's limo collection getting tossed into the river by furious locals who were basically watching their kids go hungry.
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So the US has found that there was this insatiable demand for dollars, which it supplies via debt.
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Well, what it means is that they've got to create debt and then send it abroad.
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Backed by the promises of politicians for actual things.
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People are sending them actual stuff in exchange for this notion.
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It's a bit like a branding sort of a thing, isn't it?
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You'll spend an awful lot of money on Versace, but it's still a handbag that you could get from Zara.
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But what that means is that they kind of have to send all their manufacturing abroad.
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Because if you're getting stuff from abroad and you're sending things out.
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Well, you want to get all the things want to be outside.
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And all the debt wants to be inside going outwards so that things, finished goods and raw materials
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So once you're on that system, you know, you're kind of very locked into it.
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Because if you're going to change it, I mean, you've already spent the last 30 years de-industrializing
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your own country and sending all of that abroad.
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If you just stop it like that, well, why is anyone going to send you anything?
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Now, long term, America will be fine because America has.
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Obviously, it's got the best starting position in the game of civilizations.
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It's got, you know, abundant, good agricultural land.
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But can you imagine that sort of 20, 30 year transition from we don't need to do anything.
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People will just send us stuff to, oh, look, we turned it off.
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I think you would need you would need a dictatorship to survive.
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We have to send out texts to people and go, you're on the farm today.
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Please, please, please attend the local center and sign in.
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And the UK is in a similar position to that because we can do a bit of that in producing
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debt and sending it to other people because UK debt is still worth something.
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So the way that we got around it was, OK, well, we're going to have a massive financial
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So we're going to plug into this dollar system and we're going to be.
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So it's I've heard this before, and that's what makes London, London or did make London,
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It's so fucking devious, but you have to respect that.
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Nice hotels for you to chat to each other in whilst you do these things.
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If you want to trade in the European time zone, well, Europe, Africa, Middle East or come
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to London because we're in the right time zone.
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So you can send your American bankers over or you don't even need to do that.
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You just you just let us filter the dollar system through us.
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So if that system were to ever go away, well, Britain would be screwed as well.
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Especially since we are aggressively shutting down our own agricultural energy and manufacturing
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