The Podcast of the Lotus Eaters

00:00:00.140 Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to the Jolly Brokernomics.

00:00:03.320 Ed is back. Ed.

00:00:04.860 Hello.

00:00:05.540 Hello.

00:00:05.900 Hello, hello, hello.

00:00:06.480 Thank you for coming back.

00:00:07.300 It's a pleasure, absolute pleasure.

00:00:08.660 Yes. Well, I have learned from past experience that, as I've got to know you better,

00:00:14.980 that asking you a series of pointed questions is maybe not the optimum way to go.

00:00:20.140 I'm going to go with the flow this time, so I haven't prepped anything in particular.

00:00:24.040 But before we get into, you know, wherever your mind is taking...

00:00:27.000 Is that just a cover for your lack of organisation?

00:00:29.480 Partly that as well.

00:00:30.420 But if I make it look like a conscious choice, then I could get away with doing a lot less work this week.

00:00:35.380 Exactly.

00:00:36.160 So, but before we get into that, what have you been up to, Link?

00:00:39.180 Because we did have a brief conversation about a month back then.

00:00:41.240 We chatted about the cancellation of my paper showing that woke people are mentally ill on average compared to controls.

00:00:49.980 Yes.

00:00:50.220 We talked about that online, didn't we?

00:00:52.380 And then we talked about...

00:00:53.380 It was Woke Eugenics. 0.52

00:00:54.280 I think that might have been online as well when I talked about my most recent book.

00:00:57.480 I can't remember.

00:00:58.180 Or was that in the studio?

00:00:59.200 I don't know.

00:00:59.660 Oh, yeah.

00:00:59.960 We had one in the studio, didn't we?

00:01:01.360 And then one on your book, Woke Eugenics.

00:01:02.840 That was it.

00:01:03.300 And then another one in the studio on the cancellation of the paper in the Scandinavian Journal of Psychology.

00:01:07.880 Yes, so what happened, so you had a paper actually published, and it was one of those common sense things where you figure out something that everybody already knows, that basically woke people are mentally ill.

00:01:18.400 Right.

00:01:18.740 But for some reason woke people didn't like that.

00:01:20.960 They didn't like that, and so they used all kinds of spurious excuses, such as that the language wasn't academic, which is nonsense, the phrase mutational load is perfectly academic, or that it was biased, which is, I was asked by the peer reviewers to put in my interpretation of the data, and so I did.

00:01:38.840 Although before that, the peer reviewers asked me to, I didn't even have any of this stuff in the paper.

00:01:45.080 And then what else?

00:01:46.360 So, yeah, so they used basically a series of cabillings, which would normally be something that you wouldn't even bother with, to get rid of a paper, which obviously people were complaining about, so it was retracted on basically nakedly political grounds.

00:02:01.940 But having passed peer review once?

00:02:04.440 Having passed peer review, but they forgot to subject it to queer review, which is the new higher standard. 1.00

00:02:11.980 Yeah, it gets through peer review, but then if the queer reviewers retrospectively don't like it, then it has to be retracted. 0.88

00:02:18.380 And the key finding of that is as simple as that, that if you're woke, you're more likely to be mental.

00:02:23.640 Well, it was slightly more nuanced than that.

00:02:25.900 It was that a woke scale that had been presented by somebody else using finished data, the question was, is it measurement invariant?

00:02:34.260 So do woke people respond to the questions about mental illness in a different way because they're woke, rather than just because they're mentally ill?

00:02:42.800 So that's the question.

00:02:44.760 And so what we demonstrated is that it is measurement invariant.

00:02:48.620 So it's genuinely measuring what it sets out to be.

00:02:51.500 So they're not genuinely mentally ill, they just don't have a different definition.

00:02:54.720 Exactly, precisely.

00:02:55.720 So that's exactly that kind of thing.

00:02:57.200 So then, yeah, so then it went through quite reasonable peer reviewers, I must say.

00:03:01.300 I was rather surprised because it's a very mainstream journal, Scandinavian Journal of Psychology.

00:03:06.360 And then, yeah, it got to a point where it was the fifth most downloaded article ever on their site.

00:03:14.880 Right.

00:03:15.240 So it was actually doing very well.

00:03:17.300 But, yeah, so that was what it was.

00:03:18.900 It was very popular.

00:03:19.620 So obviously, therefore, it got a lot of attention and it got to the attention of particularly shrill work activists that then got in touch with the journal and, or the publisher, rather, Wiley and Sons.

00:03:30.560 And then it was, without our chance to defend ourselves, it was simply retracted.

00:03:35.480 But, of course, that means that for a lot of people it just gave it even more attention.

00:03:38.580 And it was reported on The Daily Skeptic.

00:03:40.340 It will be on Retraction Watch.

00:03:43.000 So they're probably shooting...

00:03:43.620 It was on Lotus Eaters.

00:03:44.700 So they're almost certainly shooting themselves in the foot.

00:03:46.920 I mean, I've cited, there was a paper by J. Michael Bailey on sudden onset gender dysphoria, and it was published.

00:03:54.440 And then they found some minor, irrelevant technicality, which at best needed just a little note.

00:04:02.960 And on that basis, the paper was retracted.

00:04:06.000 But I mean, I'm still going to cite it.

00:04:07.780 I don't care.

00:04:08.280 So, yeah, so that was what happened.

00:04:11.680 And then more recently, I've got a number of projects on in terms of writing a book on ancient civilizations I've been working on for three years with a chap called Mike McCulloch, who you may know.

00:04:19.680 That's the chap who tweeted out White Lives Matter during the insanity, and his university in Plymouth tried to sack him.

00:04:27.320 And then I've got a book I'm working on, on my co-author, J. Ray Rayne Hills, on the evolution of Christianity, which I've been working on for about seven years.

00:04:36.240 The evolution of Christianity.

00:04:37.420 Yes, an evolutionary analysis of Christianity.

00:04:41.080 And then there's this one, which moves on from the work Eugenics, which I looked at.

00:04:45.460 And it looks at where I've started, I've got about 30,000 words, on the evolutionary importance of war and basically why we really always need to be at war.

00:04:55.580 And it's tentatively called What We Need Is A Good War, which is apparently a quote from Churchill.

00:05:00.760 So that's an interesting thread we should pick up on that.

00:05:02.860 But I'm not quite satisfied with the mental ill stuff because I think there's one more question there.

00:05:07.480 Well, I've got one of two questions.

00:05:09.660 And it might be a distinction without a difference or it might be important.

00:05:12.940 I'm not sure. 0.56

00:05:13.440 So I either want to ask why are mentally ill people left wing or I want to ask why are left wing people mentally ill? 0.68

00:05:20.500 Well, that's interesting because it may well be that it's that it that it's that those are two related questions and it's symbiotic.

00:05:29.220 It may well be in terms of the former question.

00:05:32.340 Why are why are left wing people mentally ill in the direction of mental illness causes being left wing?

00:05:40.660 The model that I think is the most parsimonious is simply that we are adapted.

00:05:46.540 There's no need to go into the reasons why.

00:05:47.680 We have been selected over a long period of time to be to be pro-social, that is to say high in agreeableness, low in mental instability and high in conscientiousness and rule following and to be group oriented, to be high in these five or five of the moral foundations.

00:06:04.780 That's equality of harm avoidance, but also the group oriented foundations of obedience to authority, sanctity and in-group loyalty.

00:06:17.500 And so what this would mean is that low mutational load would be associated with these things, with these conservative values.

00:06:27.180 That's what we would expect to be the case.

00:06:29.080 And that's what we find because there is evidence that high mutational load, evidence of developmental instability, things like having an asymmetrical face, are associated with being left wing.

00:06:41.780 So obviously what happened was that we go from 50% child mortality in 1800 to 1% today.

00:06:48.560 And so the deviation from what was adaptive in 1800 under harsh Darwinian conditions, i.e. conservatism, religiosity that upholds conservatism, this makes you more group oriented, you fight other groups, you're more likely to survive.

00:07:00.700 So broadly speaking, the deviation from this will be in the direction of being left wing, though there will be some exceptions, of course.

00:07:08.580 And so therefore you would expect left wing people to be associated with elevated mutational load.

00:07:13.440 And this can be seen in numerous markers of genetic poor health, that they are shorter, that they are, or partly genetic poor health, that they are shorter, that they are mentally less healthy, that they are physically less healthy, that their faces are less symmetrical, that their hands are less symmetrical.

00:07:30.580 All of these kinds of markers of genetic poor health.

00:07:35.260 And so therefore those people would be behind being left wing.

00:07:37.720 Secondly, if we look at the high neuroticism, the mental instability it's associated with, well, if you see the world, if you're full of negative feelings, well, one of those is resentment.

00:07:47.620 You hate the fact that others have power over you, and if you're individually oriented, remember, that's what we're going to be pushing towards, you're going to be individually oriented, because we were evolved to be group oriented, so you're high mutational load, you deviate from that.

00:08:00.220 So you want power just for you, you're selfish, but you're also mentally unstable in fear of fair fight.

00:08:05.160 And you should do, because you're shorter and weaker than the average person.

00:08:09.240 And so therefore you will covertly play for status, and you will be high in resentment, and so therefore you will attack that which is associated with the traditional group and its power in favour of things like equality and harm avoidance.

00:08:21.680 And that's what left wing is really, it's covertly playing for status via virtue signalling about equality.

00:08:28.440 By weak people.

00:08:29.120 Yeah, about equality, you are the weak, and you identify with the weak, and you resent the strong, so you want to bring about equality where everyone's the same, because then you get more of the pie.

00:08:41.400 And it's a way of getting power for you by seeming nice, when of course you're not nice.

00:08:45.520 So it's associated with Machiavellianism.

00:08:47.560 And also, if you perceive the world as a frightening and unpleasant place, then you'd like to take control of it, to soothe your own concerns.

00:08:55.340 And so this would militate in favour of Machiavellianism.

00:08:57.260 And the other, an individually-oriented trait.

00:08:59.960 The other one is, of course, narcissism, which is that if you feel low self-esteem and you feel that you're rubbish, then often, and I was criticised by the queer reviewers for saying this, but it's a perfectly academic idea, then you can create a sort of narcissistic false self, where you reassure yourself that you're perfect and you're wonderful, that you're morally perfect and you're morally wonderful. 0.84

00:09:20.160 Well, how do you do this?

00:09:21.100 Well, in a right-wing society, such people might purity signal. 0.91

00:09:24.920 But in a left-wing society, and that's what we're in, then, of course, you uber-virtue signal.

00:09:29.820 And then this reassures you that you're important and it reassures you that you matter and you're better than other people. 0.68

00:09:34.760 And so then that attracts you towards being left-wing, whereas, interestingly, to the extent that elevated mutational load is associated with being weirdly right-wing, deviating in the other direction, those people tend to be psychopaths, i.e. they like danger, and it is dangerous to be far right in the current system.

00:09:53.240 Or they like pissing people off, or it does piss people off, right, exactly.

00:09:58.360 So, hence our asymmetrical hands, perhaps.

00:10:00.920 But, so, that is why.

00:10:03.020 But then, on the other hand, what this means is that left-wing people feel that they don't control the world.

00:10:09.620 That's why they don't rest on their laurels.

00:10:11.360 Even if they do.

00:10:12.080 Even if they do.

00:10:12.880 Even if they do control the world, they won't feel that they do.

00:10:16.720 They'll always feel that there's a danger that their power could be taken.

00:10:20.300 I think that's why they're so successful, whereas right-wing people are mentally stable, they're happy, they have a sense that they do control the world, they are in control.

00:10:29.480 But even if they don't.

00:10:31.020 And so, as you say, they just want to grill, right, or something, did you say that?

00:10:34.380 So, that's the problem, and that's one of the reasons why things will move leftwards, until it gets to complete chaos.

00:10:40.680 So, that's the alternative side of it, which is the, what I said about a symbiotic relationship.

00:10:45.860 If you believe that you don't have control over the world, then this will make you, and you don't believe in an eternal being or something, this will make you even more unhappy.

00:10:58.440 Yes.

00:10:59.020 So, there's two dimensions.

00:11:00.320 I'm kind of intrigued by this sort of weakness idea.

00:11:02.720 I'm always reminded of a very interesting thing that, I don't know if you remember Not Gay Gerald, who used to work for Stephen Crowder.

00:11:10.100 No.

00:11:10.380 Well, Stephen Crowder has a show, Stephen Crowder is quite a big chap, and he had this producer working for him called Not Gay Gerald, and he was a skinny little chap.

00:11:20.460 And I remember one episode he said, you know, words to the effect of, when they go out and about, they're always having people come up to them.

00:11:26.320 And he can tell straight away whether they're going to be, love your work or say something abusive, depending on what they look like.

00:11:34.900 And if they look like Stephen, i.e. a big guy, they're almost certainly coming over to say, love your work.

00:11:40.020 If they're a skinny guy like him, they're almost certainly coming over to say something abusive.

00:11:44.340 Right. So, you've got two dimensions of this.

00:11:46.160 On the one hand, a person that is genetically healthy will have greater genetic resources left over to build up muscle and so on.

00:11:55.160 So, they'll be physically strong, physically good looking.

00:11:57.280 And there is actually studies on that, that right-wing men are more muscular than left-wing men, that testosterone makes you more right-wing, essentially.

00:12:08.260 But equally, there's two dimensions to that.

00:12:11.220 On the one hand, that will just be genetically associated with being conservative, because being conservative is a sign of low mutational load and having high T, or reasonably high T, and being muscular and so forth is a sign of low mutational load.

00:12:24.800 But on the other hand, then, obviously, you can argue that it gives you a certain confidence to be good looking and to be muscular, a certain feeling of empowerment.

00:12:36.080 And this will make you more inclined to like the world the way it is, whereas if you're weak and feeble, you'll feel bad about it, and so you'll resent the world and you'll want to throw it all away.

00:12:45.080 So, how does this work with women, then? Because I have noticed that- 1.00

00:12:48.100 Well, that would be to do with looks.

00:12:49.180 Women are judged not so much on their height or their muscularity, but on their prettiness. 0.93

00:12:54.800 And what's shown, again, I don't know what makes sense to me, and the data is, women, better-looking women, controlling for age and whatever factors, tend to be right-wing. 0.77

00:13:07.040 And that would make sense genetically, because they're going to have good genes, and that's going to make them have a symmetrical face, but they're also not going to deviate from the pre-industrial norm so much.

00:13:17.000 And so they're going to be more likely to be just genetically conservative.

00:13:20.940 Remember, the heritability of conservatism is about sort of 0.6.

00:13:24.160 But I suppose equally, if then you are an unattractive woman, it could make you very, very resentful and unhappy, and therefore you want to tear it all down, and therefore that pushes you at an environmental level to be more- 0.99

00:13:36.000 Yes, I mean, all left-wing women, with the exception of AOC, are quite ugly. 1.00

00:13:40.140 I have noticed that. 0.81

00:13:40.800 But I wondered if there was a factor in there with the physicality and the testosterone, because as well as the good-looking thing, if a woman has a strong husband or strong father figure, that makes her much more likely to be right-wing. 1.00

00:13:56.760 Well, presumably, again, it's difficult to tease out the genetics from, if she is genetically healthy, she will attract genetically healthy men, because it will be passing on more of her own genes to- 1.00

00:14:12.140 So AOC's boyfriend, for example, is a complete nerd.

00:14:15.040 Right.

00:14:15.360 Well, I can't comment on that individual case, I don't know enough about it, but what you would expect is for them, is for healthy people, you'd definitely select for other healthy people, for good-looking women to be attractive to and able to bag high-status, healthy men, and for those people to, in general, be conservative rather than left-wing.

00:14:39.020 But I think there was another part of your question that I've now forgotten.

00:14:41.260 Oh, no, about the aspect of you talking about if people are physically secure in themselves and they have high testosterone.

00:14:48.340 Yes.

00:14:48.640 And, of course, even a strong woman is going to be at the weak end of men. 1.00

00:14:53.080 So that brings in the factor about if they've got a strong husband or father or something.

00:14:58.900 Oh, yes.

00:14:59.420 So that's the second dimension to it.

00:15:02.720 So if they have a strong husband and have a strong father, then that's a person that will look after them, let's say, and that will make them feel secure.

00:15:10.460 Yes.

00:15:11.000 And make them feel that life is good and everything's okay.

00:15:13.840 And they'll therefore like things as they are, and it will push them towards conservatism.

00:15:17.320 If they lack that, they might feel reliant on the state or whatever to look after them, and therefore that might push them towards a leftist kind of worldview.

00:15:25.140 Yes, perhaps why the state likes single mothers so much. 1.00

00:15:27.840 Yeah, because they are reliant on the state.

00:15:31.200 So the other thing that came up in your interesting stuff before we get on to the main topic is mutational load.

00:15:38.280 So from our point of view, mutational load is bad.

00:15:40.960 But from an evolutionary point of view, is it bad?

00:15:43.660 Because maybe if factors that give a rise to high mutational load, maybe it's because you need to go sideways and you want to find out what works.

00:15:51.440 Yes, this is true.

00:15:54.980 So often what you would expect is that a new adaptive innovation in evolutionary terms, let's say ginger hair.

00:16:03.160 Ginger hair is the most recent of our colorings.

00:16:08.820 It's associated with very high estrogen.

00:16:12.820 And there is evidence, it has been argued by a guy called Peter Frost, that the reason why it happened was because there was a period of time in Northern Europe where we were reliant on big game.

00:16:25.720 It was so cold.

00:16:26.840 And all the men had to go off and get the big game, and a lot of them would be killed.

00:16:31.500 So consequently, there was an excess of women. 1.00

00:16:35.280 And this led to runaway sexual selection, whereby the women would compete. 1.00

00:16:39.460 How do you compete?

00:16:40.460 You produce new, novel, bright colors.

00:16:43.420 And there's a certain degree to which men of perhaps a slightly more fast life history strategy bent will be attracted to that which is new and unusual, simply because it's new and unusual.

00:16:53.740 And if life is a kind of zero-sum game where you could be wiped out at any minute, then you might as well take the chance.

00:16:59.780 This person might have some interesting, useful, adaptive trait if they otherwise seem quite healthy, which could be useful to your offspring to help them to survive.

00:17:07.600 So it's been argued that that's where ginger hair came from. 0.99

00:17:11.080 So you get blonde hair, and then eventually you get, there are other benefits to these things as well, but you get blonde hair and very pale skin and green eyes.

00:17:17.600 So in times of high stress, mutational load can be an advantage.

00:17:23.080 It's a nuanced question.

00:17:24.420 A particular mutation, the ginger hair, green eyes, pale skin, nexus, is an advantage in a, it's novel, so people are attracted to it, but there are also certain advantages that happen to be concomitant with it, such as that you are particularly able to absorb vitamin, sunlight and synthesize it into vitamin D via the skin.

00:17:47.280 And it's a grey climate, so you're not likely to get sunburned.

00:17:50.880 Oh, that's why ginger people are Scottish. 1.00

00:17:53.540 That's why there's a higher percentage of ginger people in Scotland than Ireland, right?

00:17:56.640 Yes.

00:17:56.860 So it's adaptive on that level, and in terms of women, but it's not very helpful if you're a man, but in terms of women...

00:18:06.000 Well, no, because then you become a jihadist. 0.50

00:18:08.140 Indeed.

00:18:08.780 But in terms of women, then of course it's a marker of estrogen, it's a marker of fertility. 0.98

00:18:14.260 And so, but it will manifest as a rule, a new mutation will manifest among people that have slightly elevated mutational load.

00:18:21.920 And this is what we find with ginger hair. Ginger hair is associated with all kinds of problems.

00:18:28.340 That probably would have been the case with blonde hair when it first manifested, but that was so long ago that it has managed to become uncoupled from those related mutations.

00:18:38.440 Whereas ginger hair is sufficiently new that that hasn't happened yet.

00:18:42.400 And so...

00:18:42.760 So when we say new...

00:18:44.120 Well, we're talking the Ice Age, but...

00:18:46.500 Right.

00:18:47.240 Oh, so only a few tens of thousands of years.

00:18:49.160 Nevertheless, it's sufficiently new that that's the case.

00:18:53.240 So ginger hair, for example, is associated with certain illnesses, it's associated with cancer of the rectum, it's associated with high pain sensitivity, it's associated with various other problems, it's associated with endometriosis.

00:19:06.700 So this leads to what we call frequency dependent, you know, heavy periods resulting in infertility.

00:19:13.740 So what you have is then frequency dependent selection.

00:19:17.380 And this is interesting.

00:19:18.340 So it remains attractive among women because it's novel, because it's novel. 1.00

00:19:23.720 Yes.

00:19:23.840 And if it rises too high, it becomes less attractive.

00:19:27.800 So we have this small number of gingers, which has happened as evolution has collapsed, a frequency dependent selection.

00:19:35.260 But these could come uncoupled.

00:19:36.880 I mean, equally, for example, I know an extraordinarily intelligent, perceptive young girl whose parents are very working class and not that bright. 1.00

00:19:44.600 And she's very, very clever and she has all kinds of mutations, which has all kinds of things wrong with her. 1.00

00:19:49.960 So I can only assume lovely girl, but this is true.

00:19:53.080 And so I can only assume that this is because she has high mutational load.

00:19:56.840 But concomitant with that is a positive mutation.

00:19:59.640 But aren't we in a period of high mutational load now? 0.99

00:20:02.880 We are.

00:20:03.740 Yeah.

00:20:04.040 So doesn't that mean that we're either going to get a new hair color or some other traits might emerge?

00:20:08.320 Well, there's all kinds.

00:20:09.620 Yeah, there's all kinds of weird.

00:20:10.840 But we'd have to be under selection.

00:20:13.600 How much mutational load?

00:20:15.260 So you need a mutational load and then you need a filter.

00:20:17.640 You have room in the population for there to be enough.

00:20:20.260 It's like what a genius is.

00:20:21.720 What is a genius?

00:20:22.800 Often these people that are geniuses have all kinds of problems, you know, health problems and so on.

00:20:26.560 And this was shown by Francis Galton.

00:20:29.000 They have elevated health problems, but maybe by genetic chance or they have unusual gene combinations or they have just new variants on genes.

00:20:37.080 And so they're extremely intelligent.

00:20:40.560 And so even under normal circumstances, there is some variation within the population which permits for mutational load to manifest or whatever.

00:20:48.900 What we have now is that's distinct from having absolutely massive mutational load under no real selection.

00:20:55.120 No selection.

00:20:56.000 We're not really selecting for anything positive.

00:20:58.720 Not really.

00:21:00.060 Within uncertain nuances, perhaps we now are.

00:21:02.760 But in general, it's not the case.

00:21:05.220 So it's a slightly different set of stuff.

00:21:06.300 Well, I suppose that brings us to the main thing you wanted to talk about, then, which is a war would be a massive selection event.

00:21:13.440 Yeah.

00:21:14.560 So, I mean, what is a war?

00:21:18.620 And a war is just defined as really a broad level conflict between two groups of people.

00:21:25.640 And we define it in law in certain ways as being two recognized nation states that are at war.

00:21:32.780 That's that's that's the official sort of definition of a war.

00:21:35.240 So we don't we don't think of the troubles in Northern Ireland as a war.

00:21:39.920 Although it was clearly a war.

00:21:40.920 It was a civil war because it doesn't involve two recognized states or one of these states.

00:21:48.060 But, of course, Cromwell versus the versus the king.

00:21:51.380 This is a civil war because it's two people that are claiming to represent the nation or whatever or the American civil war.

00:21:57.340 But in general, you could take it down to an even lower level and just say life is violence.

00:22:04.660 Life is conflict and the attempt and all the time.

00:22:11.140 All the time.

00:22:11.540 Life in nature.

00:22:12.840 In nature.

00:22:13.440 In nature.

00:22:14.280 Most of human and animal history.

00:22:17.220 Just one animal tries to kill the other animal.

00:22:22.180 This is happening when microbes try to kill a baby and then we use doctors to fight those those microbes.

00:22:29.920 This is a kind of war to save a member of our species from another species which is fighting with it.

00:22:36.660 This is the norm.

00:22:37.860 So the child's level of understanding of evolution is that lions want to eat antelopes.

00:22:43.320 If the antelope, the fastest antelopes don't get eaten and the slowest lions don't eat and therefore both the lions and the antelope get faster.

00:22:51.100 So they are acting, right, precisely.

00:22:53.060 So they are acting as their own, almost as their own selective breeding farmers.

00:22:58.680 They are in a symbiotic relationship where they are evolved to be in that situation of, let's call it war, all the time with a different species.

00:23:09.580 There is then, and that different species is purging the worst of them, both directly, i.e. killing them, and indirectly, i.e. the antelope escaping the lion.

00:23:22.120 And then this continues within the species whereby there will be fights, often to the death, for females or whatever.

00:23:33.600 And so this is a kind of a war in which you are purging the worst of your species by preventing them from breeding. 0.93

00:23:41.220 And so this process is simply ongoing all the time.

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PREVIEW： Brokenomics ｜ Evolution & War with Ed Dutton

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