The Podcast of the Lotus Eaters - April 29, 2025


PREVIEW： Brokenomics ｜ The Pope


Episode Stats

Length

30 minutes

Words per Minute

174.92285

Word Count

5,385

Sentence Count

592

Misogynist Sentences

3

Hate Speech Sentences

35


Summary


Transcript

00:00:00.000 Hello and welcome to Brokonomics. It is Pope season again where we will be selecting a new Pope.
00:00:05.420 Now I think this is quite interesting because the base of Catholicism is going a very different way
00:00:11.160 to the current leadership of Catholicism. So for me this is a fairly important bellwether moment
00:00:17.160 in what direction at least one element of the global leadership goes, being a leadership of
00:00:25.020 1.4 billion people. So I think it's significant. Now this is going to be a primer on all matters
00:00:31.000 potpourri. We are going to be covering the current situation, how the Vatican stands today and also
00:00:39.840 of course a bit of the classical stuff. How did we get here? Now I don't know anything about the
00:00:44.120 classical stuff but Bo does. Hello Bo. Hello. All right. Hello Bo. Well thank you for coming on.
00:00:49.100 Yeah no. I was getting me chatting about history, even ancient history. Yes. I love it. Well there's
00:00:54.600 definitely a bit of Roman stuff in here. That's definitely a bit I'd like to cover. But yeah,
00:01:00.080 you kind of see where I'm going with this is that, you know, Catholicism is in decline in Europe,
00:01:06.900 very much so. It's growing like a weed in Africa and they're very orthodox. Latin America has declined
00:01:16.380 a bit, but you know, they're still quite orthodox. Apparently it's growing in Asia.
00:01:21.920 Just to make a differentiation between orthodox and Catholic, because some people, when you say orthodox,
00:01:29.600 they think... Oh orthodoxy, as in traditional... Not Eastern orthodox, like Greek orthodox or Russian orthodox.
00:01:36.740 Not that, not that right yet. I mean that might also be growing. I don't know. In Asia, I mean like the Philippines,
00:01:40.560 I've been reading recently a fair bit, as I guess you might imagine I would, been reading all about MacArthur,
00:01:49.260 of all things. I'll do an epoch at some point about MacArthur and the war in the Pacific and he will return.
00:01:54.880 And anyway, the Philippines is Catholic. Big time Catholic. Oh big, yes, very much so. Yes.
00:02:01.160 I mean, the Philippine people are sort of all different types of ethnicities,
00:02:07.720 but a lot of them are sort of Chinese originally, going back centuries now,
00:02:10.940 but they're sort of Chinese people and there's been lots and lots of sort of Muslim influences.
00:02:17.920 And yet, despite everything, because of the Spaniards really, they're Catholic.
00:02:22.360 The Spaniards spent 400 years there, didn't they?
00:02:24.400 Yeah. And the Spanish sailors who were stationed there, didn't really have anything to do apart
00:02:28.580 from the local girls. And so they've injected a lot of Spanish-ism into the country.
00:02:34.740 Funnily enough, in the Philippines, I did come across a massive statue of, and get this,
00:02:41.340 Cardinal Sin. Okay.
00:02:43.940 There was literally a cardinal whose surname was Sin. Okay.
00:02:47.040 And he's got a huge statue in Manila. All right.
00:02:49.600 I mean, what a name. Yeah.
00:02:50.820 I mean, you could never promote him to Pope because you've got to keep him as a cardinal.
00:02:56.360 Yeah.
00:02:56.560 He was really popular as well. They built a statue of him. So, yes.
00:02:59.640 Well, they've got cathedrals and stuff, haven't they, all over the Philippines?
00:03:03.160 Yeah. They're staunchly Catholic.
00:03:04.500 Yes. And apparently it's doing well in Vietnam as well and some of those other Southeast Asian
00:03:09.000 countries where young professionals are turning to Catholicism for whatever reason.
00:03:14.480 And I did say it was declining in the West, but every time you meet a Catholic in the West,
00:03:20.820 they're pretty hardcore, aren't they? I mean, you don't pick Catholicism if you're going
00:03:24.560 to be a wet.
00:03:26.660 It's true. It's a fair point.
00:03:28.060 I mean, the nature of Catholicism is the, well, put it this way, the nature of the Church
00:03:35.160 of England or Anglicanism is extremely wishy-washy. And that's not what Rome is about.
00:03:41.540 Well, I do like Catholicism for the fact that he's got a boss man. Whereas in Anglicanism,
00:03:51.280 the Church of England stuff, you basically, I mean, you kind of have got a leader in the
00:03:56.140 Archbishop of Canterbury.
00:03:57.320 Well, the monarch, the king is the head.
00:03:59.540 Well, yeah, but he doesn't actually enforce anything, does he? He doesn't do anything.
00:04:04.780 And what you end up with is lesbian bishops. And they just go all over the place. They're
00:04:10.020 just so rudderless. Well, at least with Catholicism, you've got a guy who's like, well, the last
00:04:14.340 one was like, okay, now we're going to be weff-aligned and we're going to be a bit woke. But at
00:04:20.040 least you have got a boss man who can come along and say, right, no, we're sorting this
00:04:24.740 out.
00:04:25.160 Yeah, Catholics, like most religions, actually. I mean, Anglicanism is something of an
00:04:29.880 exception. Catholicism, like most religions, they have doctrines.
00:04:34.500 Yes.
00:04:34.800 They've actually got doctrines.
00:04:36.140 This is what we believe.
00:04:37.400 There are lines in the sand.
00:04:38.900 Yes.
00:04:39.700 So, yeah, I mean.
00:04:41.840 Yeah. But where I'm going with all of this is the leadership is basically, well, the
00:04:46.940 majority of the cardinals, I think it's the majority, there's like, whatever, 300 of
00:04:51.100 them or something. But the majority, I think, were selected by Francis, who was a wokester.
00:04:56.260 So the leadership is a bit woke. But what I'm saying is the base, Catholics themselves,
00:05:01.520 especially young Catholics, they are traditionalist. They're more orthodoxy. They're not, you know,
00:05:08.980 they're not signing up for whatever Francis was selling, basically.
00:05:13.040 Yeah.
00:05:13.520 And so for me, this is a really interesting question. Where does the Vatican go next?
00:05:19.360 Does it go with what the cardinals want? Which it probably will.
00:05:23.460 Well, they're the ones that get to decide who the next pontiff will be.
00:05:27.480 It is them. It is the cardinals.
00:05:28.780 Yeah.
00:05:29.100 The princes of the church.
00:05:30.520 Or will they go down the route of what the base desperately wants, which is a return to
00:05:35.040 tradition?
00:05:36.560 We shall see. Who knows? I've got no real insight into that. I don't know the politics of the
00:05:41.560 most senior cardinals.
00:05:43.240 Well, before we dive into the history stuff, why don't we take a quick look at that?
00:05:46.880 Okay. So hopefully our editor can stick up on screen this little table that I put together.
00:05:54.960 So what I've got here is the top cardinal selections.
00:05:59.180 Okay.
00:06:00.240 They're betting odds. So I did a daily video.
00:06:03.060 What, of them becoming the next pontiff?
00:06:04.660 Yes.
00:06:05.400 So this dude's favourite, is he?
00:06:06.860 Yes.
00:06:07.800 Okay.
00:06:08.920 Pietro Parolin. So he's favourite.
00:06:12.120 And basically he was the Vatican Secretary of State. So he's basically the number two
00:06:18.820 behind Francis. So he's a powerful dude already. I've given him a base score of 40%, which
00:06:26.660 is pretty low. So I'm taking Francis as a sort of, you know, around about, you know, 50-ish
00:06:32.780 percent.
00:06:32.960 So he's more lefty than, is that what you mean?
00:06:36.240 Yeah, maybe. I mean, he was the action man for Francis and he was going around.
00:06:42.120 You know, enforcing this agenda. So he spent a lot of time talking about climate change
00:06:46.620 and migration and stuff like that.
00:06:49.660 The only reason he hasn't scored lower is because he is at least sensible on women's
00:06:55.100 ordination. He just says no.
00:06:57.360 Right.
00:06:57.800 Non-negotiable. We're not doing that.
00:06:59.900 Right.
00:07:01.420 Yeah.
00:07:02.180 Fair enough.
00:07:02.780 I mean, as soon as you get... I'm not saying all women are bad, obviously, but the ones that
00:07:09.000 have absolutely ruined the Church of England have generally been... Yes.
00:07:12.980 No, it's been a tenet of theirs.
00:07:14.920 Like, why...
00:07:15.980 Yes. Well, I mean, there is pressure to... So you've got the... Next up is Louis Antonio
00:07:23.040 Tegel. So he's from Manila that we were just talking about.
00:07:27.000 He's even woker.
00:07:28.660 Oh, is he?
00:07:29.260 He only scores 30%, but he's the second favourite close behind. So it's basically between these
00:07:33.740 top two is the current thinking. So he's the Archbishop of Manila.
00:07:37.540 So the odds get much longer after these top two.
00:07:40.440 Yes.
00:07:40.780 He's likely to be one of those two dudes.
00:07:42.820 Well, that's what the betting market thinks at the moment.
00:07:45.760 And he has been described as the Asian Pope Francis, and he's been very pro-LGBTQ.
00:07:53.520 Okay.
00:07:53.880 Yeah. Which, for Pope, I would suggest is not the way to go, but then I'm not Catholic.
00:08:01.380 It's weird. It's divisive. I heard the last Pope just gone. I've seen him described in
00:08:06.680 a number of different places as one of the most divisive Popes.
00:08:10.520 Yes.
00:08:10.880 Because, again, the base, your average Catholic, isn't on board with pro-LGBTQ stuff.
00:08:16.100 Well, also divisive from doctrine.
00:08:19.540 Yeah. Oh, right. You saw it.
00:08:20.420 Yes.
00:08:20.800 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:08:21.400 Doctrine and the base.
00:08:22.720 Yeah.
00:08:22.840 Yes. Then we've got Matteo Zuppi here, who is even woker. He's the third. So basically
00:08:30.300 the top three, well, actually the top four, because Turkson's after. So Zuppi has praised
00:08:35.740 queer families, and he's done a focus on migration. So he's basically the wokest on this list,
00:08:42.080 and he's number three, is Zuppi. Number four on the list is also a wokester, Turkson, who
00:08:50.880 who's apparently Ghanaian, Ghanaian, and he's been focusing on climate change, social justice,
00:08:56.340 and inter-religious dialogue.
00:08:58.340 Of course he has.
00:08:58.720 Of course he has.
00:08:58.740 Of course he has.
00:08:59.720 Of course he has.
00:09:00.260 Yeah.
00:09:01.020 Yeah.
00:09:02.760 But just, anyway, number, what are we on? Number five, Erdo. Now, we start getting sensible
00:09:08.400 now.
00:09:08.960 Okay.
00:09:09.280 Okay. So Erdo, he's a Hungarian.
00:09:13.000 All right. Based straight away.
00:09:15.160 Yep. He's on pretty good terms with Viktor Orban.
00:09:19.860 Oh, right. Okay. I like that.
00:09:20.640 So he really is. I was joking, but he really is then.
00:09:22.960 Yeah. No, and he's been sensible on migration issues.
00:09:27.020 Okay.
00:09:27.260 And he's been quite sceptical about the progressive reforms under Francis.
00:09:33.480 Okay.
00:09:34.080 So he might even be even more based, but because he was a cardinal, Francis got rid of bishops
00:09:40.100 who spoke out too much.
00:09:42.620 I mean, one of the bishops basically just called him a heretic, and he was like, okay, right,
00:09:45.360 you're gone then.
00:09:47.220 So this guy might be even more based, but because he's been a cardinal under Francis,
00:09:51.460 he kind of kept his powder dry. But from what we have seen, he gets a pretty decent based
00:09:55.420 score, does the Hungarian. So he's probably my favourite out of this list.
00:10:03.800 This one, I just love the name, Pierre Battitista Pizza Baller. I really think we should have
00:10:09.540 a Pope called Pizza Baller, even if he does score only 50%. He might be all right as well.
00:10:16.020 I mean, he spent most of his career in the Holy Land. So by necessity, he's been doing
00:10:21.440 a lot of...
00:10:22.080 Israel, you mean?
00:10:23.860 What do you mean?
00:10:25.680 Yes, yes. So he was the Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem.
00:10:29.200 Oh, okay. All right.
00:10:30.540 Now, because he was there, he's focused on interfaith dialogue, but that's kind of out
00:10:35.220 of necessity because you're in Jerusalem.
00:10:38.000 Yeah.
00:10:38.500 So there's not really, yeah, you kind of expect that. So I'm not 100% sure about my score
00:10:43.500 for him, so I put him at 50%.
00:10:45.260 Okay.
00:10:46.380 So maybe. Oh, this guy's pretty good. Odds start getting a little bit longer.
00:10:51.440 Now, but Robert Serra, he's the one that's attracted a lot of attention in social media.
00:10:56.300 So he's from Guinea. How do you pronounce that? Guinean?
00:11:01.300 Yeah.
00:11:01.860 Oh, right. Guinean. I suppose so, yeah.
00:11:05.100 And he basically spent most of his career resisting a Marxist dictatorship.
00:11:10.660 Nice.
00:11:11.420 Which is good.
00:11:12.220 Yeah, no, genuinely.
00:11:13.220 Yeah.
00:11:14.680 He's been a big critic of mass immigration.
00:11:18.420 Oh, right.
00:11:18.840 Which is nice as well.
00:11:20.060 Yeah.
00:11:22.780 Unusual.
00:11:23.420 Yeah.
00:11:24.120 And he likes a bit of the tradition as well.
00:11:27.140 You know, he's not against all the gender stuff.
00:11:29.680 He calls it a threat to the family.
00:11:31.520 He even advocates for traditional liturgy.
00:11:35.380 Okay.
00:11:35.660 So, so, so, so he gets a base score 90%, but he probably, you know, being, being of a shade
00:11:43.420 darker than most of us, he can probably get away with being a bit more in the face of
00:11:48.280 Francis's reforms.
00:11:50.300 But no, he's definitely got a very strong base score.
00:11:52.780 It would be interesting if he won it and became the Pope.
00:11:56.740 Yes.
00:11:56.980 And was really, really based or reactionary.
00:12:01.040 I don't mean that as a pejorative, but I mean, that's what the Guardian would call him, I suppose.
00:12:06.080 Or conservative or whatever you like.
00:12:08.160 And like the lefty mainstream media would attack him, but obviously he's a black fella.
00:12:13.160 Yes.
00:12:13.820 So they're going to have a bit of cognitive dissonance.
00:12:15.960 Do you remember?
00:12:16.420 A black Pope that's really anti-immigration.
00:12:18.800 Yes.
00:12:19.120 How are they going to square that circle?
00:12:20.720 Yeah, they're going to have problems with that, aren't they?
00:12:22.440 Yeah.
00:12:23.480 Do you remember when David Lammy thought that, you know, the white and black smoke that comes
00:12:28.000 out the chimney to denounce whether you've got a new Pope?
00:12:30.820 Yeah.
00:12:31.060 David Lammy thought that was indicating the race of the Pope.
00:12:35.000 Really?
00:12:35.700 Really?
00:12:36.280 Yeah.
00:12:36.480 He put a tweet out criticising it, saying, I think we should be focused on something else
00:12:40.520 other than the race of the, of the next Pope.
00:12:43.860 So a tradition started, I believe, in 1903, indicating whether we got, because it's,
00:12:50.260 for those who don't know, they, they, they keep having these ballots and whenever a ballot
00:12:54.080 is unsuccessful, they burn them and black smoke comes out.
00:12:57.080 Yeah.
00:12:57.440 And when they've got a Pope and the ballot is successful, they let release white smoke.
00:13:00.640 Yeah.
00:13:00.780 And that way, everybody in the, in the Vatican Plaza, whatever it's called.
00:13:03.960 They're waiting.
00:13:04.860 Yeah.
00:13:05.160 Sometimes for days, sometimes weeks.
00:13:06.900 They can, they can see when white smoke comes out and they know they've got a new Pope
00:13:09.980 and they cheered.
00:13:10.820 Yeah.
00:13:10.940 So, I mean, I normally do my Brokonomics, basically aiming at Rachel Reeves so that she
00:13:15.900 can learn something.
00:13:16.860 So Rachel, if you finally got your Brokonomics subscription, run down the hall, get David
00:13:21.760 Lammy and pull him in for this one so he can learn something about the Pope.
00:13:25.900 But yes, we, we might possibly have a black Pope and it would probably be a good, unless
00:13:30.500 it was Turkson.
00:13:32.100 Yeah, he seems.
00:13:32.660 Yeah, he's a proper wokester, but, but Sarah isn't too bad.
00:13:37.380 Getting into slightly longer, Oz, we've got Mario Gambetti.
00:13:42.120 So, I mean, at least he's an Italian and he hasn't taken strong stances on the woke stuff,
00:13:47.660 but he, he's signaled that way.
00:13:49.240 So he gets 40%.
00:13:50.980 Cristo Bal, Lopez Romero, a Spanish chap.
00:13:55.860 He, he's pretty woke as well.
00:13:57.700 I mean, he spent most of his time in Morocco, but I mean, he's been doing a lot of woke outreach
00:14:01.700 and stuff.
00:14:03.000 And at the bottom, we've got another uber-wokester, Jean-Claude Hollerick, Luxembourgish, or whatever
00:14:10.240 you pronounce it.
00:14:11.320 And he's been, well, he basically wants gays in the church.
00:14:17.780 I mean, I'm sure there are already, but he, but he wants that official.
00:14:20.980 So based on this, it's likely we're going to get another lefty.
00:14:25.720 Probably.
00:14:26.300 Might not, but it, it looks most likely.
00:14:28.940 Yeah, you've got to hope for either Sarah or Urdu, the Hungarian.
00:14:32.560 Urdu, I think would be excellent.
00:14:34.700 And it'd be interesting to see the name they pick as well, because the names all have significance
00:14:38.620 as well.
00:14:39.180 Because I believe the first one, I mean, you can tell me this, I believe the first one
00:14:42.120 was Peter.
00:14:43.000 Yeah.
00:14:43.200 And nobody's picked Peter II, out of respect.
00:14:47.540 Well, St. Peter, it's the Apostle Peter.
00:14:50.660 St. Peter, yes.
00:14:52.020 Yes.
00:14:52.220 So nobody's picked Peter since, but there are certain names that become associated with different
00:14:56.440 things.
00:14:56.900 So if we get a Pope Pius, that would be an indication that he wants to return to tradition
00:15:02.400 and orthodoxy, that kind of thing.
00:15:05.800 If he picks a name like Leo, that's associated with, you know, civilizational protection.
00:15:11.860 Authority, papal authority.
00:15:13.340 Yes.
00:15:13.620 Yeah, you do.
00:15:14.500 Yeah.
00:15:14.640 When you pick your name as Pope, it's quite often.
00:15:17.420 It sends a message.
00:15:18.060 You're harking back to one of your favourites.
00:15:20.720 Yes.
00:15:21.120 Often.
00:15:21.640 Not always.
00:15:22.260 Yes.
00:15:22.460 Not always, but.
00:15:23.340 Benedict, for truth, which might, you know, in this day and age might be interpreted as no
00:15:29.380 men actually are men and women are women.
00:15:32.340 So Benedict might be a good one.
00:15:34.280 You can see Sarah or something going for Benedict or something.
00:15:37.880 Urban, that's the one I'd really like to see.
00:15:40.220 Yeah.
00:15:40.520 Of course, associated with Crusades.
00:15:41.920 Yeah, right.
00:15:42.280 I was going to say, yes.
00:15:44.100 Pope Urban II is the first Crusade Pope, isn't he?
00:15:47.360 Yes.
00:15:47.800 So.
00:15:49.060 I'd like to see a Leo.
00:15:50.240 Badass.
00:15:50.440 I'd like to see a Leo or an Urban being that Erdo chap, that Hungarian chap.
00:15:56.560 I'd like to see that.
00:15:57.240 And there's also Constantine, which kind of invokes renewal of Christian faith.
00:16:03.780 So any of those names going on an Erdo or a Sarah, I think we're in good hands.
00:16:10.820 But it's probably going to be a wokester.
00:16:14.140 Famously, there's always a lot of horse trading behind the scenes.
00:16:18.020 Yes.
00:16:18.340 So it's not, it's often, well, it can quite easily not be one that seems like the obvious pick.
00:16:27.980 Yes.
00:16:28.900 So quite often they'll think, like, this guy is the heir apparent.
00:16:31.960 He's the obvious pick.
00:16:32.900 He's got the College of Cardinals behind him.
00:16:35.240 And he doesn't get picked.
00:16:37.120 Yes.
00:16:37.420 So you never know.
00:16:38.840 Well, that's why I'm hoping he won't necessarily be that Piede bloke, the current favourite,
00:16:43.580 because, you know, he is the Vatican Secretary of State, but he's also therefore had the opportunity
00:16:48.740 to make enemies as well.
00:16:50.200 Right.
00:16:50.900 Yeah.
00:16:51.500 Which could be...
00:16:52.620 A lot of politics.
00:16:53.900 Yeah.
00:16:54.040 I mean, historically speaking as well, going back centuries and centuries and centuries,
00:16:57.160 you make all sorts of promises to get the top seat.
00:17:00.020 Yeah.
00:17:01.140 Apparently once a conclave lasted for three years.
00:17:04.520 Yeah.
00:17:04.740 Well, it's got even more complicated than that.
00:17:07.420 Sometimes you've had a Pope voted in and then a big chunk of the Cardinals don't accept
00:17:15.640 it.
00:17:16.480 Oh, right.
00:17:17.400 They'll go and make a counter-papacy of their own.
00:17:20.240 When you've got two Popes.
00:17:21.540 Yeah.
00:17:21.960 And two Popes.
00:17:22.860 There's been three Popes.
00:17:24.240 At one point there was four Popes.
00:17:26.320 Right.
00:17:26.880 All running around at the same time.
00:17:28.420 Pope for every occasion.
00:17:29.220 This is like the late 14th century I'm talking about.
00:17:32.640 In fact, I covered it a bit in my recent ongoing mini-series about Henry V, the Council
00:17:39.580 of Constance.
00:17:40.640 You have a rival papacy in Avignon in southern France.
00:17:43.780 Yeah.
00:17:45.000 And everyone decides, well, okay, instead of these two rival Popes, let's pick a third
00:17:51.160 one.
00:17:51.820 Hmm.
00:17:52.520 Right.
00:17:52.840 And we can all get behind that third one and it just didn't work.
00:17:55.040 So now you've just got three Popes and they're all claiming to be Pope.
00:17:57.320 Yeah.
00:17:58.220 Anyway.
00:17:58.980 We very slightly had a version of that recently, didn't we?
00:18:02.120 Because what was it?
00:18:02.700 Was it Benedict, the former Pope, who stood down and resigned?
00:18:06.880 The Ratzenberger fellow.
00:18:07.820 Yeah.
00:18:08.320 Ratzenberger.
00:18:09.260 He stood down, but he was basically still living in the Vatican.
00:18:13.220 Yeah, he was a dodgy fellow, wasn't he?
00:18:16.140 I don't know, actually.
00:18:17.180 I wasn't paying much attention to the Pope for you back then.
00:18:20.140 I think he was.
00:18:21.000 I think he resigned.
00:18:23.040 Like, that's almost unheard of.
00:18:24.360 It has happened before.
00:18:25.440 Yeah.
00:18:25.740 Under duress.
00:18:26.640 But not in modern times, I'm pretty sure, I probably have to use the word allegedly
00:18:31.460 here to be careful.
00:18:33.240 Just in case he sues you.
00:18:35.060 But I think there would have been all sorts of scandals coming out of the woodwork with
00:18:39.200 him, and to avoid that, he'd just step down.
00:18:43.000 Even though popes don't really resign.
00:18:44.900 Yes.
00:18:45.300 It's like resigning as president.
00:18:47.700 It can happen.
00:18:48.860 It has happened.
00:18:49.680 It's not something you do just to put on your CV, is it?
00:18:51.720 It's super rare.
00:18:52.920 Yeah.
00:18:53.260 Super, super rare.
00:18:54.080 You're supposed to stay there till you die.
00:18:55.800 Yeah.
00:18:56.520 That's the idea of it.
00:18:56.980 The thing I'm thinking of in the 12th century is apparently it lasted for three years at one
00:19:00.900 point, because the Italians and the French were feuding over, and they just would not
00:19:04.740 give ground.
00:19:06.040 And eventually, the locals decided to lock them in and starve them until they picked.
00:19:11.660 And they picked some poor sod who wasn't even present.
00:19:14.140 He was in the Holy Land or something, and he just got a telegram one day to tell him that
00:19:17.920 he's the Pope.
00:19:18.700 Right.
00:19:18.900 And that's apparently where the tradition comes from now of they just get shut in, and
00:19:24.580 they can't go anywhere.
00:19:25.280 They can't have their phones.
00:19:26.200 They can't have any screens, basic rations.
00:19:29.100 In fact, it used to be water and bread after a few days, if you didn't make a quick decision.
00:19:34.560 I don't think they'd do that anymore.
00:19:35.660 But they locked them in, and they were like, no, you're on a fast decision.
00:19:39.340 And apparently, just before the Second World War, whichever Pope that was, I forget now,
00:19:43.480 but they picked him within hours.
00:19:45.280 So my understanding is that between two and three weeks after the Pope dies, we get a
00:19:54.960 new one, and we should find out fairly fast.
00:19:57.780 So about a week after this airs, it should begin the process.
00:20:02.580 Yeah.
00:20:02.680 I mean, I think once in my lifetime, if I recall properly, it was protracted.
00:20:09.360 Like, day after day, the black smoke keeps coming out.
00:20:12.580 But mostly, in my lifetime, as far as I can recall, it's pretty quick.
00:20:17.040 Yeah.
00:20:17.280 Mind you, there hasn't been that many, has there?
00:20:19.220 Plus, it doesn't matter as much these days.
00:20:21.860 If you go back to the medieval period or before, it really, really mattered.
00:20:27.160 Like, the Pope was one of the power players in Europe, arguably, as powerful, or more powerful
00:20:34.480 than a king, arguably, at different times.
00:20:36.900 So it really, really mattered what policy the Pope had.
00:20:40.860 Well, I tell you.
00:20:41.640 Whereas now, not so much.
00:20:43.940 Well, that's the three-year thing when the Italians and the French were fighting.
00:20:47.460 But, okay, let's get into the history side of it, then, because, okay, so I know that
00:20:51.680 the Pope is the Pontifax Maximus, one of the old Roman titles.
00:20:56.200 And I know that the Pontifax Maximus, in, like, the year zero, was this pagan dude who
00:21:02.680 was, like, sacrificing balls and throwing chicken bones and keeping the Roman calendar
00:21:07.060 and stuff like that.
00:21:08.220 And I know that by about the year, by the, you know, 400s, you've got what I would consider
00:21:14.480 to be a proper Pope.
00:21:15.900 I'm a bit hazy as to what happened in between that Pontifax Maximus and that Pontifax Maximus
00:21:23.160 because something crossed over there and I'm not clear on what happened.
00:21:26.400 Okay, so the ancient Roman Pontifax Maximus is different to a Pope.
00:21:32.680 The fact that...
00:21:33.560 Well, it is one of the Pope's titles.
00:21:35.240 Well, yeah, but only since, like, the 15th century.
00:21:38.360 Oh, really?
00:21:38.840 Yeah.
00:21:39.600 Okay, so that wasn't continuous at all.
00:21:40.980 The chief pontiff to be the vicar of Christ.
00:21:44.400 There's all different names you could call the Pope.
00:21:46.280 Yes.
00:21:47.500 And since about, I think, the 15th century, they decided to start using that.
00:21:52.860 So the idea of a pagan ancient Roman Pontifex Maximus is a different thing to a Pope, even
00:21:58.740 though a Pope can and does call himself chief pontiff.
00:22:01.500 So, okay, so the ancient Roman Pontifex Maximus is the chief priest.
00:22:07.780 Yes.
00:22:08.340 The chief priest.
00:22:09.060 But it was an office, usually for life, just like any other, like being a consul or a creator
00:22:15.400 or something like that.
00:22:17.380 And you could bribe yourself into that.
00:22:19.840 I mean, Julius Caesar was Pontifex Maximus.
00:22:21.560 Yeah, because I know it went over to being an emperor's title.
00:22:25.740 So one of the things I was going to ask you is, and it sounds like this is going to be
00:22:29.980 a hard note, is there any way of saying the Roman Empire lives on through the Pope?
00:22:35.600 People argue about that.
00:22:37.120 Right.
00:22:37.480 I say no.
00:22:38.640 Okay.
00:22:39.180 I say no.
00:22:40.220 Yeah.
00:22:41.960 Yeah.
00:22:42.760 Because of that discontinuation.
00:22:45.020 Yeah.
00:22:45.720 I say no.
00:22:47.280 Okay.
00:22:48.200 But you can make the argument.
00:22:49.940 You can make the argument, but it's a difficult one for me.
00:22:52.160 It's a tenuous.
00:22:52.880 Yeah.
00:22:53.500 I say no.
00:22:54.140 So how do we end up with the first Pope now?
00:22:56.000 So, okay, so you've got the Pontifex Maximus.
00:22:57.700 By the age of Augustus, i.e. one generation after Julius Caesar, who Augustus is considered
00:23:03.560 the first emperor, true emperor, he had then accrued everything into one person.
00:23:09.480 All the powers of the consul, of the tribunate, and to take the Pontifex Maximus,
00:23:16.580 or put all of that into one person, me, Augustus.
00:23:20.980 Okay.
00:23:21.240 So there you go.
00:23:22.240 So that's sort of the Roman Pontifex Maximus.
00:23:24.060 The emperor ended up being the chief pontiff.
00:23:28.500 Yes.
00:23:29.000 Okay.
00:23:29.420 So that's that.
00:23:31.600 But then, so Pope is something entirely different.
00:23:34.520 If you go to the Vatican, if you go to St. Peter's Basilica in Rome, I've been there a
00:23:39.580 number of times, you'll see up on the wall, a big, literally written in stone, list of
00:23:45.540 the Popes from Peter down to today.
00:23:48.900 An unbroken list.
00:23:50.540 Now, the real reality is that there were various breaks.
00:23:53.200 Sometimes you had anti-Popes running around.
00:23:54.740 But nonetheless, the official line is that there's an unbroken line of Popes from Peter
00:23:59.820 to today.
00:24:00.160 So did they pick one of the four from that thing you were telling me earlier and just
00:24:04.120 put his name in there?
00:24:04.700 In the end, yeah.
00:24:05.400 Yeah.
00:24:05.560 At the Council of Constance, like 1416, 1417, or whatever it was, they, in the end, decide
00:24:12.260 on one guy and keep going forward with that guy.
00:24:14.760 Okay.
00:24:15.600 But Peter, he's from about the year 30-something, is he?
00:24:18.880 Right, yeah.
00:24:19.440 Well, he was contemporary with Christ, yeah.
00:24:21.400 Yes.
00:24:21.660 And so a lot of the early Popes, the very, very early Popes, their history, their historicity
00:24:29.620 is a little bit shaky, like Anglo-Saxon kings during the Dark Ages.
00:24:36.140 Sometimes it's little more than a name.
00:24:39.020 Yes.
00:24:39.300 They're not sort of firmly in the full light of history.
00:24:42.020 Like King Arthur, for example, yes.
00:24:43.600 Well, King Arthur is almost entirely fictional, or an amalgam of more than one person or whatever.
00:24:48.140 But, yeah, sometimes they're a little more than a name on a paper.
00:24:52.340 But, so, okay, so you've got the Popes.
00:24:55.580 So the line of Popes, from Peter to today, are different to the ancient Roman pagan Pontifex
00:25:02.500 Maximus, although from the 15th century onwards, Popes would call themselves that.
00:25:06.780 Okay.
00:25:07.180 So they're just adopted them.
00:25:08.400 But then I've also got to mention Constantine.
00:25:11.480 So how did you go from the Rome, the pagan Rome of Julius Caesar and Augustus?
00:25:15.240 Well, that's, okay, so that's what I wanted to ask, because my envisaging was, is that
00:25:21.460 I know at some point the emperor adopted Christianity, and I just assumed at that point he picked
00:25:27.160 a Christian rather than a pagan for his Pontifex Maximus.
00:25:29.920 But I've got it completely wrong then.
00:25:31.020 It's not, no, it's not like that.
00:25:32.520 Not really like that, no.
00:25:34.340 So famously, it's Constantine, Constantine the First.
00:25:37.020 Yes.
00:25:37.280 And we're talking the early 4th century, so the early 300s or the 330s.
00:25:42.160 I think he dies in the 330s AD.
00:25:45.940 But it's not a, it's much more complicated than that.
00:25:48.180 So, I mean, after that, you've got the age of Julian, the emperor Julian, Julian the
00:25:51.500 apostate.
00:25:52.660 Being an apostate means you've renounced the faith.
00:25:56.200 So Julian the apostate.
00:25:57.760 Which faith did he renounce, Christianity or paganism?
00:26:00.480 Yeah, yeah.
00:26:01.020 He went back to paganism.
00:26:02.400 He's after Constantine and he goes back to paganism.
00:26:04.700 So Catholics call him an apostate, or Christians call him an apostate because he took him back
00:26:09.260 to paganism.
00:26:10.980 But then they reverted back to Christianity.
00:26:15.020 Oh, okay.
00:26:15.500 So it's a bit of a back and forth, a bit of a seesaw, but not much of one, really.
00:26:19.140 I mean, Julian the apostate, you could see as a bit of a blip from the Christian point of
00:26:22.560 view.
00:26:23.040 But the story of how you go from the age of Christ or the age of Peter to Constantine,
00:26:30.460 I mean, that's a few hundred years, the best part of 300 years.
00:26:34.040 And it's a very long storied narrative of how you go from being this small sect in
00:26:40.320 Judea, small sect of heretic Jews in Judea, to being the state religion of the Roman Empire.
00:26:49.560 Well, it's a long and storied thing.
00:26:51.260 I mean, it was, I suppose, a very, very, very short summary of it is, is that it became
00:26:56.360 fashionable.
00:26:56.960 So even in the age, even in the age of Nero, Nero does a massive persecution of Christians.
00:27:05.140 Some blamed the Great Fire of Rome that happened during Nero's reign on the Christians.
00:27:10.440 Tacitus explicitly says it was the Christians.
00:27:12.620 What made it popular?
00:27:13.640 Well, it just became like anything else, really.
00:27:16.120 It just became the rich and famous, the rich and powerful people.
00:27:21.480 It was like an avant-garde, edgy thing.
00:27:24.540 And then it makes the mainstream and then it blows up.
00:27:28.100 So I thought that they were sort of putting Christians to death in the Colosseum.
00:27:32.560 Yeah, to begin with.
00:27:33.700 To begin with, right.
00:27:34.400 But that's in the earlier bit.
00:27:36.060 And then they get bored of that.
00:27:37.640 And the rich people who want to be a bit edgy, they think, OK, let's do this Christian stuff.
00:27:42.640 So like it's an underground, it's sort of an underground cult.
00:27:46.860 Right.
00:27:48.300 Yeah, a type of cult among many in the Roman world in the first, second century AD.
00:27:53.520 It was like a mystery cult.
00:27:55.020 It was one of the mystery cults, like Mithraism or something.
00:27:57.260 What were some of the other ones then?
00:27:58.600 Like Mithraism.
00:28:00.200 Mithraism.
00:28:00.680 Yeah, there's a god called Mithras.
00:28:02.560 Right.
00:28:03.780 Which was, or there's loads of them.
00:28:05.360 There's like the cult of Isis, an Egyptian cult.
00:28:08.440 Oh, right.
00:28:09.220 And sometimes, depending on the Roman emperor, sometimes they'll sort of turn a blind eye to it.
00:28:15.120 Sometimes they'll like try and stamp it out.
00:28:17.240 Right.
00:28:18.540 Like Judaism, for example.
00:28:20.500 Sometimes it's sort of allowed.
00:28:21.840 You're sort of freely allowed to be Jewish in Rome.
00:28:23.560 And other times, like maybe Titus or Hadrian, they persecute you.
00:28:28.040 Right.
00:28:28.180 So you go ups and downs, peaks and troughs in their favourability within Rome.
00:28:33.280 But at a certain point, it becomes kind of fashionable and the persecutions tail off.
00:28:42.480 So you're not going to be absolutely arrested.
00:28:46.040 So in the Roman period, the first, second century AD, the Romans would say things like,
00:28:51.620 look, look, you're allowed to be a Christian, but you must also, you must also at least pay lip service to the cult of the Roman emperor.
00:29:03.420 And particularly Christians and Jews would say, no, we can't do that.
00:29:07.820 There's one God.
00:29:10.620 We can't.
00:29:11.680 No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
00:29:13.820 Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's.
00:29:15.860 I mean, why can't you do that?
00:29:18.640 Well, because the early martyrs, the early Christian martyrs refused to.
00:29:22.000 They say, no, there is one God.
00:29:26.220 And there's Jesus.
00:29:28.620 And there's one word.
00:29:29.860 OK.
00:29:30.460 And we can't worship Caesar, the Roman emperor, whoever he is.
00:29:37.980 OK, fair enough.
00:29:38.520 We can't.
00:29:40.360 And the Romans quite often, very often, in fact, if you believe people like Zosimus or Tertullian or whoever or Edward Gibbon,
00:29:47.980 quite often the Roman authorities would say, look, just throw us a bone here.
00:29:51.320 Just pretend.
00:29:52.480 You don't even actually have to really believe it in your heart.
00:29:54.680 Just say it.
00:29:55.800 Just sign this bit of paper.
00:29:56.700 We don't care if you really believe it.
00:29:58.280 We don't want you to.
00:29:59.120 We don't want to throw you to the lions.
00:30:00.860 But we'll have to.
00:30:02.800 And they're like, no, I'd rather be a martyr.
00:30:05.160 No, martyr me then.
00:30:06.600 They get really hard lying about it.
00:30:08.520 Well, I was going to say, that's the Roman Empire negotiating from a position of weakness,
00:30:14.440 coming across like that.
00:30:15.540 But if they were dealing with absolute headbangers like that, who were like,
00:30:19.480 yeah, no, I'm not going to even lie to you in order to avoid being eaten by a lion.
00:30:23.520 I mean, I would lie to avoid being eaten by an lion.
00:30:26.840 Most people would.
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00:30:38.520 Thank you.
00:30:41.800 Thank you.
00:30:42.500 And you'll see you next time.