The Podcast of the Lotus Eaters - PREVIEW： Chronicles #15 ｜ A Man For All Seasons with Beau Dade Part 2

00:00:00.000 the pope was being held effectively under house arrest yeah he's just as concerned he's under 0.96

00:00:20.340 house arrest right he can't do jack shit unless charles unless charles lets him he's a prisoner 0.75

00:00:27.440 yeah he's a prisoner so he's a hostage so so he he will he will whilst that remains the case 0.95

00:00:34.980 henry is not going to get what he wants from rome and he's waited long enough at this point yeah so

00:00:41.760 into his own hands uh and so then uh thomas goes back into the house and we're greeted to another

00:00:49.140 interaction with william roper again yeah right and all of a sudden even though seemingly very

00:00:55.660 little well a few years have passed but all of a sudden roper has changed his beliefs yeah right

00:01:01.980 so i've been thinking about it and actually i'm uh uh i've i've come to some different conclusions

00:01:10.020 obviously still um a lot of corruption in the church that we have to address but um but the

00:01:16.560 thing about i'm a good catholic again now right but i am a good catholic again yeah and one of the

00:01:21.780 things that i love about roper as well as a character just as a portrayal of a character

00:01:27.440 is how he just throws his opinions about like he's like he's just so eager to let everyone know what

00:01:36.520 he thinks about everything all the time whereas more isn't despite more's principle he's not high and

00:01:44.420 mighty about it he's not moralizing he's always just trying to gently nudge people in this portrayal of

00:01:51.520 him in the play he's the total opposite he never really the whole point of the play is him trying

00:01:57.720 to hide his opinions yes right not to to shout them from the rooftops like roper and eventually as the

00:02:04.200 play goes on he gets frustrated with roper's irresponsibility about the fact that roper won't

00:02:10.860 seem to when are you going to get it into your head that your opinions will end up costing you

00:02:17.060 the safety of your family you know and your very life yeah um in this play at least it's it's really

00:02:25.320 the story of more playing the delicate game of not revealing what he really thinks up until the

00:02:32.680 denouement at the end anyway um and uh there's a there's a great line in wolf hall i think the first

00:02:39.600 season won't be the second season but i think the first season of wolf hall uh where it's the period

00:02:44.380 where thomas more is sort of going through the sort of pre-trial period and cromwell i think this is

00:02:51.580 this is purely a a hillary mantle um idea i'm not i don't think it was ever said or anything it's just

00:03:00.100 what she's what she's made up okay but cromwell says to thomas well come to dinner let's come on

00:03:06.740 let's we can talk it out we can talk anything out come to dinner and i'm paraphrasing slightly but

00:03:12.020 thomas more says something like um it was nice enough that you want to put food into my mouth

00:03:18.540 but i fear you'd put words there too um that's a great line yeah yeah it's a great yeah um and so

00:03:26.180 thomas more's entire uh uh entire mission in this play anyway um is not revealing what he really

00:03:38.280 thinks because that would just lead directly to the scaffold or or something or right or the pyre yes

00:03:44.500 um so he's got to remain quiet and uh and just muddy the waters endlessly um so it's a delicate

00:03:55.980 tightrope it is so he's having this conversation with roper and margaret and alice and then richard

00:04:03.040 rich comes in again and you get this moment of real desperation from richard like where you can

00:04:12.340 see him this is probably the moment where he crosses that point of no return in a way because he's met

00:04:18.700 cromwell everyone knows that he knows cromwell and cromwell has tested the waters about whether or not

00:04:25.020 they say he can collect richard to be one of his own but then you get to the point where uh he

00:04:32.580 introduces richard to roper and it's obvious that roper has heard of him oh yeah and to begin with

00:04:39.380 richard likes that because that's what he wants he wants recognition but then he realizes oh but it's

00:04:47.300 not good recognition people don't like me people have bad opinions of me because he constantly ignores

00:04:55.040 all of the things that more warns him about um he just keeps um and so you have this point where

00:05:03.560 richard says give me a job save me give me a job and mo says no and so that's it over to cromwell he

00:05:13.940 goes yeah yeah he wants renown um but he's aghast to find it's it's bad and he says as well he says

00:05:24.720 cromwell's asking for information on you yeah he tells more about yeah um and it's really funny as

00:05:31.180 well because um it says well after richard leaves roper says well the fact that cromwell's gathering

00:05:37.700 information on you and mo says well and i'm sure someone's gathering information on cromwell it's like

00:05:42.980 we're high profile people like someone out there wants to know something about all of us but then

00:05:49.040 you get this uh remarkable monologue from more because we're all saying look richard is obviously

00:05:56.780 a bad person and he is going to do you in like not quite but like you can't trust him right he will

00:06:06.480 he will betray you he will sell you out yeah if he needs to for his own expediency and more goes on to

00:06:15.080 say yes father that man's bad there is no law against that there is god's law then god can arrest

00:06:22.500 him it's like well sophistication upon sophistication no sheer simplicity the law roper the law i know what's

00:06:31.300 legal not what's right and i'll stick to what's legal then you set man's law above god's no far

00:06:38.040 below but let me draw your attention to a fact i'm not god the currents and eddies of right and wrong

00:06:44.820 which you find such plain sailing i cannot navigate i'm no voyager but in the thickets of the law

00:06:52.200 oh there i'm a forester i doubt if there's a man alive who could follow me there thank god and roper

00:06:58.880 says so now you give the devil the benefit of law and more says yes what would you do cut a great

00:07:06.760 road through the law to get after the devil and rope says i cut down every law in england to do that

00:07:13.060 and more says oh and when the last law was down and the devil turned around on you where then would

00:07:18.900 you hide roper the laws all being flat this country is thick with laws from coast to coast man's laws not

00:07:26.280 and if you cut them down and you're just a man to do it do you really think you could stand upright in

00:07:32.800 the winds that would blow them yes i'd give the devil benefit of law for my own safety's sake

00:07:39.100 but the remarkable thing about that monologue is the fact that it is not the revocation

00:07:49.760 of laws that ends up being more's downfall it's actually the addition of new laws

00:07:56.080 they bring in more and more laws to eventually suffocate more and basically leave him with

00:08:04.980 nowhere else to hide they use all the legal tricks that they can to to make him say the words to trap

00:08:11.580 him although firas i was talking to before i came on and he made a really good point as well

00:08:16.580 which is that but in putting these new laws in place that's exactly what they are doing the new

00:08:22.360 law is designed to basically hack away hack down all of the old ones all of the ancient laws that have

00:08:29.880 stood for for centuries that is a really good bit in the in the play um when yeah more's talking all

00:08:37.220 about uh the devil and the laws of man god's laws and things and um yeah it's a great um interaction

00:08:46.580 with with roper there and uh he makes a good point something i agree with um i i you should give the

00:08:55.100 devil um the benefit of the law like even like a mass child killer should still face trial

00:09:04.540 and go through the processes not just immediately executed on the spot like judge dread

00:09:11.540 right uh that even even a demon should uh have their day in court uh because if they're truly guilty

00:09:19.820 of anything then it will all come out in the wash at least um yeah and the uh the the richard rich

00:09:26.460 um they realize he he realizes that they know that he is sort of corruptible or has already been

00:09:35.100 corrupted i think that's the next scene isn't it the most important scene so we'll talk about it now

00:09:40.420 but um because they get thomas moore not just by making new laws but that richard commits perjury

00:09:49.000 just liars on the stand and what can you do about that like if someone is prepared to go

00:09:55.220 in in a court and just lie and just said you did this or you said this what can you do about that 0.98

00:10:01.840 if the court believes them then right but that person's integrity that perjurer that liar their 1.00

00:10:10.880 integrity is uh gone no they're they're nothing now they are just a liar um what what is a man 0.95

00:10:20.160 worth then sold his character if he's fine clothes and for whales we'll get to that we'll get to that

00:10:27.260 um okay yeah so is that the next thing we're getting so we we then get um the coming together of

00:10:34.020 again cromwell and uh richard rich and this is where where richard goes over to the dark side

00:10:42.140 right and um he says and cromwell basically just asked him he says you know would you um

00:10:49.860 what would it cost you know to just like win you over and original to begin with he says oh i wouldn't

00:10:57.800 you know like to sell out more says i wouldn't and that's great because cromwell kind of gives him 0.59

00:11:03.720 that bitch please yeah you know kind of look that's great that's one of my favorite bits 1.00

00:11:09.160 probably top five favorite bits in it is when he says no seriously rich yeah yeah no and he's like 0.99

00:11:14.000 no i am serious he's like no seriously like sort of saying um look we're playing with life and death

00:11:22.740 here perhaps even our own much less thomas moore's perhaps our own right uh we're playing for the

00:11:28.900 highest of stakes yes like i can give you offices and and all sorts of money and all sorts of favors

00:11:34.560 and promotion and and we may die if we fail as well so it's a carrot and a stick no wait i'm being

00:11:42.200 deadly serious now what would it take for you to sell out right uh and rich responds to it eventually

00:11:50.300 just says like well well everyone's got a price yeah and and then cromwell says back to him something

00:11:56.380 along the lines of everybody knows it not everyone will admit it right right that's so that's but

00:12:03.800 obviously moore disproves that rule right yeah yeah it's not true yeah not for cromwell's worldview

00:12:10.620 is flawed not everyone can be bought most can yeah i was gonna say not everybody yeah yeah you know

00:12:18.620 cato couldn't be yeah um moore can't be yeah some people are incorruptible it's super rare

00:12:25.840 it is super rare and cromwell can't understand it yeah right yeah can't understand it but obviously

00:12:33.160 from cromwell's perspective right this is this is the burden of power right this is the burden of well

00:12:41.900 i am in this position now as secretary to the council and you know eventually he becomes chancellor

00:12:48.380 doesn't he or oh does he no he becomes uh who sorry uh cromwell i forgot that yeah he does become

00:12:54.620 yeah world privy seal and all these responsibilities and that means enforcing the king's will

00:12:59.940 and unfortunately enforcing the king's will is going to necessitate kind of selling your soul

00:13:07.920 yeah right it is pure again and again and again actually right and cromwell is regis machiavelli

00:13:13.140 right he understands what needs to be done in order to maintain power and obviously moore is just

00:13:21.900 averse to these things averse to this these temptations um he would rather lose his own life if it

00:13:29.300 came to it um so that's actually where act one ends i do believe yes it is there's also a

00:13:37.620 an interesting part here where which i don't believe was in the film but it's the final

00:13:42.500 interaction between cromwell and rich in this part of the play where cromwell says i think we're

00:13:49.180 finished for the night after all he is the lord chancellor as we're plotting against him and rich

00:13:54.640 says you wouldn't find him easy to frighten you've mistaking your man this time he doesn't know how

00:14:00.700 to be frightened and cromwell says doesn't know how to be frightened why then he never put his hand in

00:14:07.900 the candle and then he just takes rich's hand and puts it towards the candle and rich goes you enjoyed

00:14:15.440 that yeah it's like yeah he did he enjoys exuding his power over other people he enjoys throwing his

00:14:23.580 weight around his his states of office that's why i think the hillary man and we said this in out

00:14:29.980 my epochs about it that's why hillary mantles cromwell uh is too rosy he's too nice and good

00:14:38.920 the the mark rylance version of thomas cromwell it can't be accurate no um he he was ruthless

00:14:48.740 when he needed to be anyway right i mean he was very charming when he needed to be but when he needed

00:14:53.780 to be it was absolutely sort of machiavellian style ruthless do anything to anyone if that's what was

00:15:00.780 required sure not just like this reluctance oh i'm trying to do good all the time and i'm never

00:15:05.720 really the baddie well sometimes he was the baddie yeah yeah yeah he was a baddie because he had an

00:15:13.740 even bigger baddie well telling him to yeah what he needed to tell him to turn the screws you know

00:15:19.040 it's um but again it's that thing it's like well you wanted the office you wanted the fine clothes

00:15:26.520 and all of that so do what needs to be done no one forced him down the career path he took no he

00:15:32.620 could have yeah uh he could have become a cleric yeah right um so then you uh have the end of act

00:15:39.820 one and we begin act two there's a scene at the start of act two which i believe is not in the film

00:15:44.560 version in the film i believe it's on passing the act of supremacy or just voting on oh yes that's it

00:15:50.800 with the archbishop of canterbury with cranmer um who i feel like in the film is portrayed a little

00:15:56.580 too old to be cranmer uh but nonetheless uh but in this you have uh basically waiting on the news

00:16:04.600 as to what events are about to take place and he has a conversation with chapuiz and chapuiz tells

00:16:11.920 him about he says look i've been up north recently and a lot of the northerners are getting really

00:16:18.000 restless about all of the religious reforms that are happening and obviously this is an allusion to

00:16:24.640 what will become the pilgrimage of grace yeah all those sorts of historical events and that northern

00:16:29.680 uprising but what's fascinating is that more passes this information on to the duke of norfolk

00:16:36.160 right for the stability of the realm so even though more is sympathetic with the religious convictions

00:16:44.260 of the northern peasants he still tells the elites to be on guard because there are rumblings and so

00:16:53.140 that even more surmounts the fact that these allegations of treason against more are completely

00:16:59.980 ridiculous because despite what they were saying to him about look if we don't have this son

00:17:05.940 it's going to lead to stability you do see that more is does care about stability he does care 0.84

00:17:13.020 about the stability of england he just won't do that yeah yeah yeah this is the scene where uh norfolk's

00:17:21.240 there to take away his his chain of state right that's the scene where um yeah he he is uh uh

00:17:30.160 uh uh leaving the the state of chancellor yes he's he's having it taken away from yes he's got one

00:17:37.640 last chance to sort of recant and take the oath and things and he still doesn't obviously and so

00:17:44.060 that it's taken away from him um yeah the northern there'd be rumblings yeah there'd be rumblings

00:17:50.740 those northerners um but the duke of norfolk already knows or cromwell already knows all about

00:17:56.840 this um so yeah they're sympathetic they're good they're sort of good catholics up to north and so

00:18:04.140 obviously sympathetic with uh more and more sympathetic with them and yet yeah you're quite

00:18:10.460 right he's still not knowing that the duke of norfolk already knows um um tells him so um yeah he's

00:18:18.280 still loyal to despite everything he's doing despite everything he's done and he's still doing

00:18:23.020 is actually still loyal to the the crown and what's more even though norfolk is prepared to go along

00:18:32.240 with these reforms in the name of loyalty to the king more doesn't just stop being friends with him

00:18:39.400 no right more hasn't cut him off right they are friends genuinely firm friends norfolk norfolk and more

00:18:46.720 yeah thomas more returns home after abdicating the chancellorship and he is obviously saying look

00:18:55.100 now that i've renounced that position things are going to be tight around here i'm not going to be

00:19:00.960 paid as much as i am anymore and so we've got to let the servants go we're going to have to start just

00:19:06.000 cutting away at our material comforts right so again now it's starting to impact the material reality

00:19:15.100 of the comfort is of his own family of alice's life of margaret's life and you have the uh the

00:19:23.280 steward as well and he's saying look we will we will not get rid of you until we have found each and

00:19:28.760 every one of you a place to move on to for work no one's going to be out on the streets no one's going

00:19:33.920 to be made a beggar and it just continues to um inspire this this noble image of more as someone

00:19:41.880 who cares deeply about the other people in his life and mitigating the impact that his decisions

00:19:49.500 are having on those around him right he's trying to keep everyone else in comfort and taking as

00:19:56.020 many of the blows himself to to his own person but eventually the walls are starting to close in

00:20:03.240 and it's starting to to eat at his family as well his wife doesn't like it does she i mean

00:20:10.140 um yeah she's sort of saying well what now and he's like well we can still enjoy each other's

00:20:17.840 company i can still write we can still have food it might not be the the most luxurious food but we

00:20:23.200 won't go hungry you know we'll be all right but she's sort of well rightly concerned there's one bit

00:20:29.900 where she says well you think they'll just leave us here for you to do writing i think you think

00:20:34.660 they'll just leave us alone now and he tries to sort of right settle her a bit saying no don't worry

00:20:40.320 about i know what i'm doing i can play this game i can do the being silent thing it will work and she

00:20:45.860 doesn't really she's already savvy enough despite the fact she's illiterate that's an interesting thing 0.99

00:20:50.780 isn't it she's very deleted made very clear she's illiterate but yet she's sort of more savvy than him

00:20:56.020 in in a sense and sense of self-preservation yeah yeah she knows the way it will go despite all

00:21:01.900 his lawyering it's not going to work no she knows that most people around him actually know it if you

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The Podcast of the Lotus Eaters - September 20, 2025

PREVIEW： Chronicles #15 ｜ A Man For All Seasons with Beau Dade Part 2

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