PREVIEW： Chronicles #41 ｜ Out Of The Silent Planet with Nick Dixon
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Summary
In this episode of Chronicles, Carl and Nick talk all about C.S. Lewis's Out of the Silent Planet, the third book in the Out of Time Trilogy. They discuss the themes and ideas explored in the novel, the influence of H.G. Wells, and the legacy of Lewis's work.
Transcript
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Hello, and welcome to this episode of Chronicles, where today we're going to be talking all about
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Out of the Silent Planet by C.S. Lewis. This is actually the first time that we've spoken about
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C.S. Lewis, dedicated an episode to one of his stories on Chronicles. And so I wanted to bring
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in a heavyweight C.S. Lewis enthusiast, Nick. Thank you. Yeah. And not my actual weight. He
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means, of course, my C.S. Lewis. Intellectual heavyweights. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, well,
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great to be here. And in a way, I wouldn't say I'm a heavyweight, but I do have some expertise
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on literature because I do have an MA in modern literature, although Lewis would hate modern
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literature. But I know Carl's quite big on having degrees and stuff. So I do actually have a little
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bit of expertise and then i'm the world's biggest c.s lewis fan right so that helps as well and i
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think it's really great to talk about this trilogy because lotus eaters fans will love
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at least the third one that hideous strength which is an incredibly prophetic book about our modern
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political situation and i've even seen tweets recently saying you're not living in 1984 you're
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not living in a brave new world you're living in that hideous strength so when we get to that one
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people will resonate with it but we want to be thorough so we have to start we do we like to do
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things properly here. So we've got to do the whole trilogy. And they are also all great in their own
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right. They are. They are. I really enjoyed Out of the Silent Planet. It was a slow burn. You know,
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it was a really slow build. And I suppose as well, because of the nature of the main character,
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Elwyn Ransom, and, you know, you get into his mind, you share his anxieties about his situation
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and where all of this is going, you know, you also fall into having those anxieties as well.
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And so you're as surprised as he is when things don't really turn out to be as he thinks they're
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going to. But before we get ahead of ourselves on all of that, let's start by talking a little bit
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about Lewis himself, because obviously he was a lot like many of his writing heroes and the people
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that had impressed him, you know, who were a generation or two before him.
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For example, he name-checks H.G. Wells a few times in this novel.
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Now, obviously, H.G. Wells' philosophy is very, very different to C.S. Lewis's,
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but it speaks to the fact that they both obviously have a deep fascination
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Wells was more of the arch-rationalist and materious, the Faustian.
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You thought, you know, this will solve everything
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and in all of his writings yeah yeah c.s lewis has definitely been been acquitted um on this yeah he
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seems to have been right oh yeah completely right and well's got it wrong yeah yeah and if you read
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that hideous strand it's even more clear and even in this book out of the silent planet and in the
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abolition of man uh which is written around this time and these books are the sort of fictionalized
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version of the some of the themes in that he's completely against the utilitarian materialist
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technocratic completely against all of that and that comes anytime you hear progressive in a lewis
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book you know you're about to deal with some evil people the progressive tendency they're called in
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that hideous trend these people at the university they're called the progressive tendencies you're
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like right these are going to be the baddies yeah lewis hated anything progressive right and um
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it's quite an interesting origin of course for this trilogy in particular uh because if i have
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it right it began uh out of a conversation between lewis and tolkien where they were basically um
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challenging one another to write some sci-fi stories and so this ended up being the first
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of lewis's out of the silent planet and i believe tolkien had been working on a time travel story
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but he didn't actually end up finishing it which is a shame because i'd love to have seen tolkien
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try his hand at something yeah more in that vein they have a sort of a bet they say lewis says look
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there's not enough of the stuff we want to read we're gonna have to write it ourselves yeah and
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Tolkien does a chapter of the time travel uh novel it ends up so he puts it out somewhere in the end
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and you can read that in one of his I'm not as big on Tolkien as some people I'm better on Lewis but
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he emerges eventually and it's not in the Silmarillion I think it's another one but he
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you can find that chapter but that's as far as he got whereas Lewis bangs out three novels yeah
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and this is just typical of the difference between them because Tolkien famously took 14 years or
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something to write Lord of the Rings. Very meticulous, extraordinary, far too meticulous
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for his own good at times. He's writing an elvish alphabet when he's got deadlines,
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whereas Lewis was bashing out, don't worry too much about little mistakes, things like that. He
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chucks away all his manuscripts after he's finished, known for throwing out swathes of
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things. Just a very different type, prodigious, prolific, but a very different type. Both
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incredible geniuses, basically, but very different. Yeah, and obviously one coming at things from a
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more Anglican perspective and the other coming at things from a more Catholic perspective as well.
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Yeah. And that is always there. I mean, people will tell you now, people who like Lewis will
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say, well, Lewis was reading Chesterton. Lewis was reading Aquinas. Lewis semi-believed in purgatory.
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He's basically a Catholic. And I've even heard people claim like Peter Craved, who's great,
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but he sort of claimed, oh, Lewis would have become a Catholic. This is nonsense because
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he was a fierce anti-catholic, anti-catholic is perhaps too strong, but he was an ulcer man by
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birth. He said to Tolkien, you don't understand, I was born in Belfast, I can never be Catholic.
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But also he just, he and Warnie, his brother, would make jokes about Catholics when Tolkien
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at one point said that he'd taken the name from a guy called Philip Neary. So Tolkien sort of took
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that as his confirmation name from this Catholic figure. And he mentioned it to Lewis one night,
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as a sort of bonding thing, like a revealing part of himself.
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I'm not going to talk about Catholic stuff with Lewis.
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Another quick anecdote is there at the Inklings, which was there.
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Because it was Tolkien, of course, who changed Lewis from,
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converted him from atheism to just a general faith,
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faith, like actually believing in a higher divinity.
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So there's a famous talk between Tolkien and Lewis.
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Anyway, they're at, they're in the, they're chatting late at night in Oxford and Tolkien
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conveys to Lewis that Christianity is the one true myth.
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And Lewis thought of myths as lies before then.
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and Tolkien explains to him this theory of the true myth.
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And he ends up, that's a key part in his conversion.
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but that's where you're getting all your reasoning from,
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why should you trust the reasoning of a collection of atoms?
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He goes from being this staunch atheist to a theist,
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and Tolkien with that conversation amongst other things
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he was very like I'm just going to stick with the basics
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they had at Oxford with Charles Williams, Owen Barfield, Tolkien, Lewis, Hugo Dyson, later Tolkien's
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son, and others. They have a visitor, and they're talking about the Spanish Civil War. And it's quite
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controversial, of course, that Tolkien sided with Franco. We know that Orwell took the other side.
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And he sided with Franco because of Catholicism, mainly. But Lewis is dressing down this visitor
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who's siding with Franco. And Lewis is saying to him, oh, you know, we shouldn't be backing Franco,
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blah blah but Tolkien's sitting there thinking it's not the fascism that Lewis hates it's actually
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the Catholicism may or may not have been true but this was apparently Tolkien's feeling that's based
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on the Inklings book by Carpenter whether that's definitely true or not that was certainly something
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that is in that book so the point is it's a bit of a digression but there was always this tension
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between the Anglicanism and the Catholicism yeah so don't believe anyone that tells you Lewis was
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going to become a Catholic he wasn't going to become a Catholic and this remained a slight
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point of tension. It wasn't catastrophic. The fallout between Lewis and Tolkien is, from what
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I can gather, overstated. But this was one point of tension. Yeah. Oh, yeah, definitely. Because
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obviously C.S. Lewis passed away a good decade before Tolkien. And of course, Tolkien was very
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upset at Lewis's passing, of course. No, they remained basically lifelong friends. Well, they
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were lifelong friends, except for the last sort of 10 years, they didn't really talk as much.
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it was a problem. Tolkien didn't approve of Lewis's
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were many reasons where their friendship cooled towards
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felt the weight of their earlier friendship and how much it had meant to them.
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There are other reasons they're sort of slightly cool.
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One was Lewis formed a close friendship with Charles Williams,
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who Tolkien liked as a person, but couldn't get along with his work.
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So for various reasons, the relationship cooled towards the end.
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But these books, yeah, they come from that original challenge,
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which is so interesting, that challenge to write the kind of things they want,
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which they would have called romances, which means an adventure story.
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Yeah, like in the Arthurian sense of a romance, though they do often be literal romances as well.
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And I think as well, it's wonderful that from that wellspring of that conversation, that challenge that was laid down by both the men,
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that we see in the beginning of Out of the Silent Planet with Elwyn Ransom, Professor Elwyn Ransom.
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And if that sounds like quite a strange name for a protagonist, spoiler alert, it's revealed at the end to be a cover name.
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It's not his actual name, but it's because of the events of the story.
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That's the cover name that an alias that he's given.
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But nonetheless, he is a he just so happens to be a professor of philology.
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that he's also revealed to have been a survivor of the Somme.
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So he's very much, it's kind of like C.S. Lewis
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but you're right, of course, there's certain ways that he can...
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And of course, strong elements of Lewis, of course,
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some of his beliefs. For example, he doesn't believe in vivisection. Lewis wrote an essay
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against vivisection. Some wartime experiences that are alluded to in Perilandra, I get the
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strong impression that Lewis's experiences. So yeah, it's a mixture. I mean, and in terms of the
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name, Tolkien writes to Stanley Unwin, his publisher, that actually Ransom was going to
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be called Unwin, but he just, Lewis changed it. And the song said, I don't think the name is
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particularly that important. The name becomes important later in the trilogy and Lewis finds
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meaning for it, but originally I think he just needed a name. And yeah, he made him a philologist,
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which is the philology part is key. It's basically an old name for being a linguist, pretty much.
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That's key because he has to communicate with the aliens. But again, I don't want to get ahead
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of ourselves, but that's a key thing. Absolutely. No, it reminds me,
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it reminded me a lot of how in M.R. James' ghost stories, all of the protagonists in those
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antiquarians it's like you just you you you put in the protagonist who has like a particular
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penchant skill skill set that's going to allow them to to flourish yeah in the environment that
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you're going to set them in like this wouldn't have worked quite as well if uh you know a brick
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layer had been taken to space for example not that there's anything wrong with brick layers you know
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but like you get my point yeah it's um it just allows for that and one thing that's immediately
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interesting as well i mean i love the um one thing as well just to say i i really love there's such
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an understated beauty to lewis's writing style it's not overtly flowery it's probably closer to
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to george orwell's in that respect but it is really really beautiful and he has such a
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a wonderful just as an example so um uh ransom is out in england uh on a short walking holiday
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and he talks about the fact that um there's like uh natalie and sterk and all these little places
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that he's just uh walking through um far off the grid uh which is perfect because the faculty
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you know won't notice him being gone when he's abducted and taken to space um but we get this
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wonderful little sentence where he talks about the fact that he's supposed to be getting a room
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for tonight and he says about being refused a bed it says the place had changed hands since he last
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went for a walking tour in these parts the kindly old landlord on whom he had reckoned had been
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replaced by someone whom the barmaid referred to as the lady and the lady was apparently a
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british innkeeper of that orthodox school who regard guests as a nuisance you know and so
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immediately in with all these little quirks of the English character and even though they are
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um you know he's saying that this is a particular type of character you can tell there is an
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endearingness behind it it's it's a homely character I love that because of course I grew
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up in a essentially a bed and breakfast little hotel and restaurant in the in the lakes I imagine
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there's a lot of those yeah yeah yeah there's a lot of that actually we don't really love off
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comers but yeah perfect observation a lot of people have said to me a lot a lot's going too
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far many people but some have said to me they love this intro and i find it brilliant as well
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it's quite hard to say why he's out there on a walking tour he's like oh i've got to walk too
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far and and he ends up meeting uh we don't give the whole i don't know how many spoilers you give
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on this show but but basically ends up uh he ends up offering to do a favor for a local woman yeah
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of helping her son who's a bit sort of a challenged get home and so that ends up gets him into all
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sorts of trouble yeah but but um the opening for some reason just out there walking is so
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it's so striking and i found that as well i don't know why but it's just a great writer as you say
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and i think he's i felt it was unobtrusive writing he's a great storyteller but not
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not a sort of foregrounded style you know how you might read a comic novelist someone like
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joseph heller or or whoever i mean you may read um i'm thinking of thomas bernard but no one knows
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who that is but there are certain writers who have a very uh clear and foregrounded style
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where you sort of the style is a big part of it particularly comic novelists because of course
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it has to be funny of course so the prose itself and the sentences are important lewis i didn't
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feel that i felt it was more unobtrusive storytelling but reading it a second time
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i am struck by how good the writing is and i've also just read all of narnia and the writing is
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so good and there's wry humor and i don't think you should underestimate lewis he famously
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not famously, he said to a child who was asking him how to write,
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one of the things he said was, listen back to it, read it out loud,
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and if it doesn't sound right, don't use that sentence.
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Oh, yes, I remember seeing this guidance that he wrote, yes.
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Although he was a prolific writer, the sentences are just great.
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Yes, he had a very good sense of quality control on all of his work.
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That said, Tolkien does accuse him in this book.
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and I think he says that he spoke to Lewis about that
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because Tolkien was an absolute stickler of course for everything
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he said he couldn't put this down when he read it in manuscript
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Because he was writing to Stanley Unwin, Tolkien's publisher
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saying, you know, Unwin sent out of the Silent Planet manuscript to a reader
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the reader said it was not that good he said lewis may write a good novel one day but this
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isn't it he described the characters as bunk and tolkien said well if you're capable of using the
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word bunk you're probably not the kind of person that will like this book so he didn't think much
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of the reader right and that is mad and it actually got rejected by unwin so think about that a world
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where a c.s lewis book gets rejected it's absurd but it later got published but that did delay the
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publishing but yeah i i found it the first time i read it i read it in like almost all in an evening
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a little bit the next day, I find it extremely compelling, as did Tolkien.
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Yeah, and I think as well that it's actually the perfect place
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to start off the novel just in the rural English countryside
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because it immediately positions, particularly for a British audience,
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it immediately just catches you in something absolutely familiar.
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Everyone, unless you're some weird Londoner who never leaves,
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basically everyone has a point of reference to the English countryside.
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Everyone's been there at some point on a holiday themselves
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And so you immediately bring in the most familiar
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kind of consensus setting, ready to take the protagonist
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out to the absolute unknown and the deeply unfamiliar.
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Lewis used to love these walking tours with his brother, Warnie,
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he would always stop and name every tree an insect
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university, he says the reason I've set it in university
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past when you came across uh petty kings and woodcuts and so on that was is fantastical to
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them that was normal and then you went beyond into the strange world but that was normal to them so
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he sets it in normality now but it's very much like this here he started off as you say in the
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most normal and recognizable setting before getting to a very alien in all senses of the word yeah
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right exactly so um as exactly as you said this uh this local woman um asks him to basically get
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Her son's not home on time, and so he asks if Ransom will go and help get her son back for her.
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And in doing this, he basically just forces himself through a hedge of this house called The Rise.
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And in there, he finds, well, he's caught by the people who are about at the house,
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and these prove to be a chap called Devine and another chap called Weston.
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um and that i actually what you're saying i thought they were great great characters i
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thought they were actually perfectly serviceable for um i mean i don't know where they go in
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obviously the next two novels but like for the purposes of this one alone i felt like they were
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really good characters in just carrying up conveying the themes and the the sense of
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self-interest that on all of the the aspects of human nature that c.s lewis is basically trying to
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to guard against and you immediately know that they're bad people because um ransom talks about
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the fact that uh one of them devine uh that he knew him from his school days and he immediately
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says yes now i distinctly remember him being the worst person at school like just the worst and so
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you immediately know it's like and again we all know the worst person at school and that they
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always remain the worst and so yeah there's a lot of clues yeah they're two great characters as you
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say devine a sort of loose opportunistic just scumbag basically yeah he's greedy he's only
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interested in power and money just complete scum all the way down superficial charm you know and
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it's sort of that posh superficial charm but he's a total wrong and western a fascinating character
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because he's not wholly a wrong and he's someone who has a very strong belief in what he's doing
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he's a great scientist there's a moral crusade yes and he believes very much in the hg wells
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I think he believes in the progress, science, and he has disdain for anyone who stands in his way.
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Any means is worth it to get to his end. And he justifies this by saying, I'm a great scientist,
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you don't understand. But because ultimately he believes that he's doing good, that's what
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separates him from Devine, even though it's, we clearly learn in the narrative, it's wrongheaded
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according to Lewis, certainly. He's not a hero like Ransom, who is a moral hero, but he's not
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as bad as Devine, essentially. Yes. Just a great little passage here. It says,
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Oh, I'm Devine. Don't you remember me? Of course, I should think I do, said Ransom as the two men
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shook hands with the rather laborious cordiality which is traditional in such meetings. In actual
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fact, Ransom had disliked Devine at school as much as anyone he could remember. Touching, isn't it?
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Said Devine. The far-flung line, even in the wilds of Stirk and Nadabee. This is where we get a lump
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in our throats and remembers Sunday Evening Chapel and the DOP. You don't know Weston, perhaps?
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Devine indicated his massive and loud-voiced companion. The Weston, he added. You know,
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the great physicist. Has Einstein on toast and drinks a pint of Schrodinger's blood for breakfast.
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Weston, allow me to introduce my old schoolfellow, Ransom. Dr. Elwyn Ransom. The Ransom, you know,
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the great philologist, has Jesperson on toast and drinks a pint of, and then Weston's just like,
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I know nothing about it, and if you expect me to say that I'm pleased to see this person who
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was just broken into my garden, you will be disappointed. I don't care a tuppence what
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school he was at or what unscientific foolery. He is at present wasting money that ought to go
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to research. I want to know what he's doing here, and after that, I want to see the last of him.
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It's the fact that Weston has absolutely no respect
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for Ransom's field, of his professional field as well.
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It was, yeah. We are literally on the same page.
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What's fascinating about Weston, you touched on it there.
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He doesn't have any time at all for what Ransom's up to.
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where you get the differences in their philosophy.
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So Ransom says that he disagrees with vivisection even,
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which is something Lewis wrote a whole essay on,
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you cannot be so small-minded as to think that the rights
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or the life of an individual or of a million individuals
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are of the slightest importance in comparison with this,
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Ransom says, I happen to disagree, said Ransom.
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I always have disagreed even about vivisection.
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and so we see the difference there but even more in this passage here when uh western's saying to
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him have i got ahead of the pot here should i back up so not so this is an overall note about about
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western's talking about the mission and why they need to go to space and so on and why his
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scientific mission should trump all ransom replies well you hold all the cards and i must make the
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best of it i consider your philosophy of life raving lunacy i suppose all that stuff about
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infinity and eternity means you think you're justified in doing anything absolutely anything
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here and now on the off chance that some creatures or other descended from man as we know him may
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crawl about a few centuries longer in some part of the universe and western just replies yes
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anything whatever return the scientist sternly an all-educated opinion for i do not call classics
00:24:47.620
and history and such trash education is entirely on my side i'm glad you raised the point and i
00:24:52.980
advise you to remember my answer. It's very, very clear, the difference between them. And for
00:24:59.240
Weston, any means are justified to get to his end. And Ransom is completely different. So it's
00:25:05.880
really the difference between principalism and utilitarianism. And I'll just give you another
00:25:11.440
passage. This shows a difference between Devine and Weston, but also between Ransom. And these
00:25:16.040
are just overall thematic differences before we go too much into the plot. But there's a part where
00:25:28.540
understood that you are doing it all from the highest
00:25:30.480
motives. As long as they lead to the same actions
00:25:40.540
evil, however you dress it up, whatever rhetoric
00:25:50.580
i'll give you an example there's this classic um 10 men in a lifeboat uh scenario where it's
00:25:57.600
you can eat one man and kill him and eat him and nine will survive do you do it and if you believe
00:26:04.760
in principalism you go of course not we want we'll have 10 dead heroes rather than nine live
00:26:10.000
cannibals survive but if you believe in a sort of consequentialist utilitarian philosophy you say
00:26:15.420
well of course and i thought about that in light of these characters yeah ransom would never do it
00:26:26.060
we need to make the sacrifice for my great mission.
00:26:33.020
He'd say, I'm sure you'll understand, old chap,
00:26:38.140
It's all worth it for his great scientific mission.
00:26:48.540
And everything you're saying about Weston is even more just put on display for the reader,
00:26:53.260
because of course from this tiny little house in rural England, Ransom is very quickly drugged
00:27:00.700
by the two men and wakes up on board the spaceship.
00:27:04.060
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