The Podcast of the Lotus Eaters - November 19, 2024


PREVIEW： Comics Corner #16 ｜ Junji Ito


Episode Stats

Length

33 minutes

Words per Minute

178.12573

Word Count

6,033

Sentence Count

154

Misogynist Sentences

6

Hate Speech Sentences

9


Summary


Transcript

00:00:00.000 Hello and welcome to episode number 16 of Comics Corner.
00:00:03.640 I'm Harry, joined as always by Connor.
00:00:05.860 And yes, your eyes do not deceive you.
00:00:07.860 This is one where I'm hosting, and that's because this was my idea.
00:00:11.260 As always, I've dragged Connor back into the land of the East,
00:00:14.660 the land of the rising sun, which, ironically enough, he's actually been to.
00:00:19.480 I love Japan.
00:00:20.700 I just don't like people who make loving Japan their entire identity.
00:00:24.180 No, that's absolutely fair, and you're correct to do so.
00:00:26.980 Such people should be shamed and bullied.
00:00:28.540 I've mentioned it a number of times.
00:00:30.200 I was once handed an umbrella by a friend of mine, well, an acquaintance of mine,
00:00:35.320 that had a samurai sword hilt handle, and I felt like beating him
00:00:41.100 and doing a rock and turning it sideways, but no, it's very embarrassing.
00:00:46.720 But I wanted to appreciate and examine the work of Junji Ito,
00:00:52.160 probably the most well-known and famous in the West, at least,
00:00:56.140 mangaka of horror that we have over here.
00:00:59.000 And loads and loads of his material has been translated into English now.
00:01:04.400 He was the person who introduced me to horror manga.
00:01:08.500 And I think this is the first time we've done an episode
00:01:11.000 focused specifically on a horror author, or horror comics in general.
00:01:16.320 We do have others lined up and in the works.
00:01:19.040 This is true.
00:01:19.660 And obviously, Berserk had a lot of horror elements,
00:01:23.640 but is a very broad story that covers a lot of different genres,
00:01:27.160 you could say, or at least it taps into.
00:01:29.360 Ito's work is unapologetically horror-focused from the beginning,
00:01:33.720 and we thought we'd focus on primarily the short stories contained in Shiver,
00:01:37.960 which, if I remember correctly, was the first short story collection of his
00:01:41.840 released in the West in English.
00:01:43.700 Then we're going to focus on Uzumaki and Gyo.
00:01:46.940 Now, initially, I hadn't intended to cover Gyo,
00:01:49.920 because I hadn't actually read it myself.
00:01:51.760 But Connor, being the overachiever that he is,
00:01:55.140 decided that he was going to read the entire thing when I lent it to him
00:01:58.240 so he could read The Enigma of Amigara Fault,
00:02:00.840 which is an extra story contained at the back of it.
00:02:03.540 And I must say, having read it, I'm very glad that you did so,
00:02:05.900 because it was a worthwhile experience,
00:02:07.580 and there's a lot of discussion that we can take from it.
00:02:09.840 So, for those of you unfamiliar, Junji Ito is, of course, a horror author,
00:02:15.280 a horror comics writer, an artist who's very famed for his wonderful,
00:02:20.680 creepy, disgusting, uneasy artwork that he produces for all of his stories.
00:02:26.000 You can see on our wonderful video wall that our editors have put together
00:02:28.720 a selection of the work that he's done.
00:02:31.660 Yes, directly behind me is one that we'll get on to.
00:02:35.000 Why did they pick that one?
00:02:36.580 Because they wanted to punish us, I assume.
00:02:40.440 He's widely known for all of his artwork.
00:02:42.780 He's heavily influenced by other horror manga authors from Japan,
00:02:47.460 like Kazuo Umez, who I think through Ito's influence,
00:02:51.760 his work, my missus, absolutely loves horror manga.
00:02:55.380 So she's the one who gets all of the Ito stuff after I introduced her to him.
00:03:00.040 And Kazuo Umez, because of Ito's influence,
00:03:02.740 has been introduced to the West as well.
00:03:04.660 And his work is being translated,
00:03:06.460 and I've got a few of his that I need to read,
00:03:09.560 but I know that he was the first author that Ito read.
00:03:12.840 And he decided from that point that he wanted to try his own hand.
00:03:16.900 He's also a former dental technician, which is interesting,
00:03:20.000 because actually he's said in a number of interviews
00:03:22.200 that he has been helped in his craft through his experience in that,
00:03:27.580 because it helps him to stick to a deadline
00:03:29.120 and also to fashion his pens and implements
00:03:32.880 to be exactly what he needs to make them as easy as possible to use.
00:03:37.700 And you know what?
00:03:38.560 If you want to be able to do this sort of artwork,
00:03:40.760 yeah, you want to be in complete control of it.
00:03:43.400 And yeah, he's just an author who has become
00:03:46.640 very, very popular in the West, and I think for good reason.
00:03:49.980 This, I believe, is the first time that you have been introduced to him.
00:03:53.560 Were you aware of him before I suggested this?
00:03:55.700 Before you brought his name up about a year ago
00:03:59.460 in the list of ideas that we've got bouncing around,
00:04:02.780 no, I hadn't read his stuff.
00:04:04.320 My Mrs. is actually completely opposite to you.
00:04:06.120 We started watching some of the adaptations on Netflix,
00:04:09.580 the Maniac series from 2018.
00:04:11.600 Well, there's the Collection series from 2018 and Maniac,
00:04:15.060 which I believe was last year, 2023.
00:04:17.260 Oh, sorry, yes.
00:04:18.200 We started watching Maniac.
00:04:19.520 We watched the Inflatable Head Balloons one
00:04:22.280 that is included in Shiver.
00:04:23.760 This is one of his more famous ones.
00:04:26.120 She refuses to watch any of the rest,
00:04:27.460 so I had to watch it all on my own.
00:04:28.500 It is very disturbing.
00:04:29.860 I think that's one of the appeals of Junji Ito's artwork
00:04:33.000 and his stories is not just the fact that, yes,
00:04:34.840 he can create some truly gruesome images,
00:04:37.240 but also the stories often have a deeper allegorical meaning
00:04:41.840 that can be read into them
00:04:43.020 and also are purely disturbing
00:04:45.020 in a very psychological sense as well.
00:04:48.320 And that's something that I was talking to Samson about
00:04:50.880 before we came on, when you watch interviews with Junji Ito,
00:04:54.680 which I did in the preparation for this,
00:04:57.020 he comes across as a really mild-mannered,
00:04:59.520 unassuming, friendly gentleman
00:05:01.960 who keeps a lot of his cards close to his chest
00:05:04.200 when he discusses where he comes up with these ideas from.
00:05:07.900 Because, of course, we'll get into some of the political interpretations
00:05:10.380 that can come from it,
00:05:11.560 but most of the interpretations that I found online,
00:05:14.740 appropriately, given that most of the people
00:05:16.620 who analyze this stuff are progressives,
00:05:18.680 tend to be progressive readings,
00:05:21.300 left-wing, leftist readings of his work.
00:05:24.760 He himself has kept his cards very close to his chest.
00:05:27.560 I can't really find anything of his
00:05:29.140 where he talks about his own politics,
00:05:31.620 but I do think that he is definitely reflective
00:05:34.380 of Japanese culture and Japanese themes,
00:05:38.240 and his work could only really exist
00:05:40.900 or make sense within a Japanese context.
00:05:43.700 He also traverses, skillfully for the most part,
00:05:48.360 three different horror genres,
00:05:50.020 which is cosmic, sort of unknowable,
00:05:53.480 eldritch, Lovecraftian style horror,
00:05:56.280 body horror, which is the most visceral stuff,
00:05:58.780 and then monsters.
00:06:01.160 Monsters, I'm thinking like the fashion model.
00:06:03.980 Yes.
00:06:05.060 And I think actually the adaptations,
00:06:07.800 because I've read all of these stories
00:06:10.000 and also watched both series,
00:06:11.560 and I know there's an Uzumaki anime coming out
00:06:15.440 next month from when we're recording this,
00:06:18.360 which I'm actually really looking forward to
00:06:20.860 because the trailer makes it look very good.
00:06:24.740 It's using, excuse me,
00:06:27.220 an artful use of 3D animation in some places,
00:06:30.100 which can be very hit and miss,
00:06:32.580 including in the Hanging Balloon adaptation.
00:06:35.200 There's some 3D,
00:06:36.700 which doesn't look that great
00:06:38.400 and doesn't mesh that well,
00:06:39.680 but the director they've got for it,
00:06:41.480 let me get my notes up here,
00:06:43.240 who is a man called Hiroshi Nagahama,
00:06:48.940 seems to be very skilled
00:06:50.200 and is being very respectful.
00:06:52.000 It's got a seal of approval from Ito.
00:06:53.680 It's all being done in grayscale
00:06:55.080 and black and white as he would want,
00:06:56.560 and also has music being composed by Colin Stetson,
00:07:01.980 who's the man who composed the music for Hereditary,
00:07:04.780 the 2017 horror film,
00:07:06.060 and I'm a big fan of that film,
00:07:07.780 so I'm hoping that it all meshes together quite well
00:07:11.060 because as an audiovisual experience,
00:07:12.920 I think Uzumaki could be something really special.
00:07:15.900 There have been some live action adaptations of it.
00:07:19.160 It's a 2000 movie, yes.
00:07:20.700 Which I've seen some clips from,
00:07:22.240 which don't do it justice.
00:07:24.580 Well, part of the problem as well
00:07:25.620 is that it was being developed and shot
00:07:28.380 while the manga was being released
00:07:30.320 between 97 and 98,
00:07:32.200 and so it hyper-compressed the narrative
00:07:35.560 and deviated at the ending from Ito's ending,
00:07:39.200 which is more moves from body horror to cosmic horror.
00:07:42.860 It's a very Lovecraftian ending,
00:07:44.660 and also that's where it gets into
00:07:46.860 the kind of Lovecraftian horror
00:07:49.380 that would be very, very difficult
00:07:51.520 to adapt into live action,
00:07:53.300 especially in 2000.
00:07:55.120 Part of my optimism
00:07:57.740 for the Uzumaki adaptation in anime
00:07:59.680 is that the episodes might build
00:08:02.200 towards a satisfying conclusion
00:08:03.500 because they're consecutive.
00:08:04.720 I think the other one-off,
00:08:07.160 sometimes two stories in one episode model,
00:08:10.780 the way that Ito uses panels
00:08:14.440 to build suspense,
00:08:16.100 to have big splash page reveals
00:08:18.760 with jump scares
00:08:19.820 after knowing exactly how many panels
00:08:21.580 are going to build up to the reveal,
00:08:23.340 it allows you to meditate
00:08:24.960 on the meaning of the story.
00:08:26.340 Your own mind fills in the gaps
00:08:28.320 of the eerie silence as you're reading.
00:08:30.380 I found all of the other adaptations
00:08:32.720 unsatisfying.
00:08:34.640 Oh, absolutely.
00:08:36.040 And before we get strictly onto that,
00:08:38.400 I just want to get your first impression.
00:08:40.860 So you're talking very positively so far.
00:08:43.680 So seeing as this has been your first time
00:08:45.900 reading and experiencing his stories,
00:08:48.220 how has your first impressions been?
00:08:50.660 Yeah, I thought the artwork was very impressive.
00:08:52.420 I thought the use of panel compositions
00:08:54.140 was as good as I have seen
00:08:57.740 in some of the best of Western comics.
00:08:59.900 I wouldn't be averse to picking this up
00:09:02.060 and putting it in my own library.
00:09:03.740 And unlike with Berserk,
00:09:05.460 where, again, I like the artwork
00:09:07.020 and I like the storytelling style,
00:09:09.200 it made me feel uncomfortable
00:09:10.660 in a way which was suitable to genre,
00:09:16.260 whereas I felt that Berserk
00:09:17.680 sometimes took it a bit too far.
00:09:20.920 And even though it probably accurately depicted
00:09:23.040 the horrors that would take place
00:09:24.560 in a dark fantasy scenario,
00:09:27.500 it felt that it indulged too much
00:09:31.240 in the suffering,
00:09:32.560 whereas this was designed
00:09:34.220 to creep and gross you out.
00:09:36.620 And so it didn't feel indulgent.
00:09:39.340 I don't know if I'm describing that properly.
00:09:40.980 I understand what you mean.
00:09:42.480 The expectation going into a horror story
00:09:45.440 makes the events that happen in all of these,
00:09:48.260 despite the fact that there is
00:09:49.420 a significant amount of suffering,
00:09:51.280 almost every single one of his characters
00:09:52.920 is doomed from the outset
00:09:54.300 without knowing it to begin with.
00:09:55.920 That all builds to the horror
00:09:57.020 so it feels appropriate.
00:09:58.640 Whereas while I love Berserk
00:10:00.200 and you had some real peaks
00:10:02.720 and valleys with that,
00:10:03.880 especially the Golden Age,
00:10:05.100 obviously when it was going
00:10:06.140 into the more high fantasy aspects of it,
00:10:08.460 I remember you really enjoyed that.
00:10:10.800 And by the end of Conviction,
00:10:12.520 there was a lot that was starting
00:10:13.720 to build in the story
00:10:14.680 that you could grasp hold of
00:10:15.980 and see as more positive
00:10:17.060 than a purely dark and depressing vision.
00:10:20.340 But I can definitely understand
00:10:21.520 that Berserk for a lot of people
00:10:22.820 is very, very difficult.
00:10:24.480 Eclipse felt exploitative
00:10:25.700 in a way that nothing in Jinji Ito,
00:10:28.140 while gross and invasive,
00:10:31.760 got to, if that makes sense.
00:10:33.860 Yes.
00:10:34.400 And to touch on a point
00:10:35.600 that I was building to a few minutes ago,
00:10:38.860 Ito himself, in his manner,
00:10:41.240 his style of work reminds me,
00:10:43.780 and of course this is where
00:10:44.640 I'm going to go with it,
00:10:45.480 a bit of David Lynch,
00:10:46.840 if only because of the fact that,
00:10:48.900 like Lynch,
00:10:49.560 he's this nice, normal man
00:10:52.780 who you could probably,
00:10:53.680 you could see him
00:10:54.480 as a friendly grandfather.
00:10:56.240 Have you heard that Lynch
00:10:56.840 isn't leaving the house at the moment
00:10:58.120 because he's so petrified
00:10:59.480 of getting COVID?
00:11:00.760 He's almost 80 at this point
00:11:02.580 and he's not doing very well.
00:11:03.960 There's been rumour
00:11:04.820 that he's not well enough
00:11:06.160 to direct anymore
00:11:07.140 because I know he was working
00:11:08.180 on projects.
00:11:09.320 He has dispelled those rumours
00:11:10.760 and I would assume that,
00:11:12.120 given modern technology,
00:11:13.020 he can probably direct remotely
00:11:16.820 or at least do some part
00:11:18.880 of the process
00:11:19.520 that doesn't require him
00:11:20.560 to be on set every single day.
00:11:22.280 I'm always excited for his works.
00:11:23.920 By the way,
00:11:24.340 my point that I was making
00:11:25.640 was he goes,
00:11:26.400 yeah, I'm a normal, friendly guy.
00:11:28.020 Also, check out my work.
00:11:29.460 It's really dark and messed up.
00:11:31.620 The comparison that I made
00:11:32.920 while reading Uzumaki
00:11:34.660 was with Stephen King,
00:11:37.260 where Stephen King,
00:11:38.840 and you can attribute a lot of this
00:11:40.300 to being hit by a car
00:11:41.340 and having a complete personality change,
00:11:43.020 but Stephen King
00:11:44.520 was from quiet, mild-mannered Maine
00:11:47.100 and then from his mind
00:11:48.860 spawns all of these
00:11:50.520 prolific horror concepts,
00:11:53.020 even if they aren't executed
00:11:54.180 with rhetorical flourish
00:11:55.740 or great endings.
00:11:56.980 I think Uzumaki especially
00:11:58.080 has real parallels to it
00:11:59.320 and I found it quite interesting
00:12:00.440 because it was translated
00:12:01.880 into Japanese
00:12:02.540 and published in 1991
00:12:03.740 and you can see
00:12:05.400 parallels in the story
00:12:07.600 that, again,
00:12:08.100 I don't know if Uzumaki
00:12:08.920 has ever spoken about,
00:12:09.860 but you've got
00:12:10.280 the well at the centre
00:12:11.200 of the town,
00:12:11.740 the town being afflicted
00:12:12.640 by a curse,
00:12:13.320 and something that's
00:12:13.780 quite interesting
00:12:14.380 is that this episode
00:12:15.700 is being recorded
00:12:16.460 27 years after Uzumaki
00:12:18.640 was originally released,
00:12:19.860 so we've got a nice
00:12:20.700 little parallel with it
00:12:22.000 and us discussing it.
00:12:22.740 Oh, yes, yes.
00:12:24.240 And with that,
00:12:25.180 let's start to get
00:12:25.800 into the stories
00:12:26.780 because I think
00:12:27.700 we've given enough
00:12:28.420 peripheral,
00:12:29.280 although there is
00:12:30.140 one other thing
00:12:30.820 that I just wanted
00:12:31.360 to give a little anecdote
00:12:32.420 about how it was
00:12:33.340 that I got into Ito
00:12:34.240 in the first place,
00:12:35.040 which was about
00:12:36.220 eight or nine years ago
00:12:37.580 I wanted to dip my toe
00:12:39.200 into horror storytelling
00:12:40.440 and knew that Japan
00:12:41.500 had its own unique flavour
00:12:43.020 because Japanese horror,
00:12:44.480 because of the cultural
00:12:45.280 perspectives that it brings
00:12:46.640 and the style
00:12:47.480 that the authors
00:12:48.200 tend to go with,
00:12:49.180 feels so different.
00:12:50.400 So I decided to go
00:12:52.000 into a Manchester comic shop
00:12:53.640 called Travelling Man
00:12:55.020 and picked up that edition
00:12:56.940 right there
00:12:57.780 that you've got
00:12:58.600 for however much it was
00:13:00.400 because it was
00:13:00.820 only just released,
00:13:02.220 only just translated
00:13:03.020 into English
00:13:03.580 and released
00:13:04.040 in this large omnibus volume.
00:13:06.260 And I find it funny now
00:13:07.780 because Travelling Man,
00:13:08.760 I don't really go there anymore
00:13:09.860 when I'm in Manchester
00:13:10.580 because it's plastered.
00:13:12.300 All of the walls,
00:13:13.340 all of the windows,
00:13:14.320 pride flags,
00:13:15.060 trans flags,
00:13:16.020 and if you go in there,
00:13:17.440 the Western comic section
00:13:18.920 is entirely confined
00:13:20.740 to a small corner,
00:13:22.180 a few shelves
00:13:22.920 that all have everything
00:13:24.220 bunched up together,
00:13:25.680 Marvel,
00:13:26.600 DC,
00:13:27.480 Image,
00:13:28.400 Dark Horse,
00:13:29.140 and the rest of the shop
00:13:30.000 is either manga,
00:13:30.980 they've got a big manga display
00:13:32.280 in the middle,
00:13:32.800 and then Funko Pops
00:13:34.740 and boy toys,
00:13:37.080 you know,
00:13:37.360 essentially.
00:13:38.220 And I always think to myself,
00:13:40.020 I wonder if the people
00:13:41.940 who staff that shop
00:13:43.160 ever wonder
00:13:44.360 as they're putting up
00:13:45.560 all of their trans flags
00:13:46.880 and pride flags,
00:13:48.040 why it is that
00:13:49.080 the Western comics
00:13:50.220 just don't sell anymore?
00:13:51.820 Why is it people
00:13:52.420 don't buy them?
00:13:53.620 Anyway,
00:13:54.620 I know these were released
00:13:55.760 in late 90s to 2000s,
00:13:58.520 but none of this
00:13:59.480 is contaminated
00:14:00.020 by the current thing as well.
00:14:01.520 So if anyone is interested
00:14:02.700 in picking up
00:14:03.440 just well-crafted
00:14:04.940 escapist entertainment
00:14:07.720 with an underlying subtext
00:14:10.300 that relates to
00:14:11.240 cyclical history
00:14:12.200 or Japanese politics,
00:14:13.080 I can endorse
00:14:13.980 that these are
00:14:14.580 worth the price.
00:14:16.320 And,
00:14:16.580 shocking,
00:14:16.900 they're quite affordable.
00:14:18.100 They're only about
00:14:18.660 20-odd quid on Amazon
00:14:19.980 compared to
00:14:20.940 the omnibus formats
00:14:22.240 from Marvel and DC
00:14:23.460 that's 80 to 100,
00:14:25.020 which,
00:14:25.960 yeah,
00:14:26.300 admittedly,
00:14:26.620 I still spend money on.
00:14:27.800 Shame.
00:14:28.060 They look really nice
00:14:30.540 on the shelf,
00:14:31.300 all right?
00:14:31.680 You've got to have
00:14:32.200 your shelf candy.
00:14:33.160 It depends on the story.
00:14:34.380 If you're going to collect
00:14:35.100 Swamp Thing
00:14:35.700 in an omnibus format,
00:14:37.560 I'm a sucker for it.
00:14:38.820 Yeah.
00:14:39.100 So let's start,
00:14:39.940 I think the easiest place
00:14:41.080 to start would be
00:14:41.660 the short stories,
00:14:43.020 and this is a really
00:14:43.960 good place to start
00:14:44.920 because it contains
00:14:45.720 some of his more
00:14:46.840 iconic ones like
00:14:47.860 Fashion Model
00:14:49.000 and Hanging Blimp
00:14:50.380 adapted into
00:14:51.460 Hanging Balloon.
00:14:52.380 It also contains
00:14:54.000 Painter,
00:14:55.040 as you mentioned,
00:14:56.240 is the introduction
00:14:57.200 for many people
00:14:58.640 to the Tomi,
00:14:59.620 or Tomei,
00:15:00.540 however you pronounce it,
00:15:01.460 series,
00:15:02.040 which I also have,
00:15:03.300 but I've not read
00:15:04.080 because,
00:15:04.760 like you,
00:15:05.540 I wasn't quite as drawn
00:15:06.760 to that story
00:15:07.520 when I was going
00:15:08.160 through this,
00:15:09.240 and it seems Tomi
00:15:10.560 is much more structured
00:15:11.580 as,
00:15:12.980 similar to the first
00:15:14.040 half of Uzumaki,
00:15:16.080 a series of short stories
00:15:17.440 all focusing on
00:15:18.400 the same group
00:15:19.180 of characters,
00:15:20.300 particularly Tomi herself,
00:15:21.440 who always gets
00:15:22.360 into similar scenarios.
00:15:24.040 The innovation of Tomi
00:15:25.300 is that it follows
00:15:26.280 the monster
00:15:27.080 rather than
00:15:28.700 the characters
00:15:29.560 being subject
00:15:30.280 to external forces
00:15:31.660 or some kind of curse,
00:15:33.360 and I think
00:15:34.000 Ito has a particular
00:15:35.640 connection to it
00:15:36.380 because in 1987
00:15:37.660 he submitted
00:15:39.440 his first
00:15:41.000 proper manga story
00:15:42.320 to a magazine
00:15:43.100 for a Halloween edition
00:15:44.380 and won a prize for it,
00:15:46.020 and that was the first
00:15:46.960 Tomi story that he did,
00:15:48.260 so then he decided
00:15:48.940 to continue it
00:15:50.140 as a running series.
00:15:50.880 And it is his
00:15:51.760 longest running series,
00:15:53.120 and if you,
00:15:53.660 I have flipped
00:15:54.400 through the edition,
00:15:55.620 and if you go
00:15:56.120 to that first story,
00:15:57.360 you can see
00:15:58.020 just how primitive
00:15:59.480 his artwork was
00:16:00.600 at that point
00:16:01.180 compared to where
00:16:02.280 it would end up
00:16:02.920 just a few years later
00:16:04.560 because there's a real,
00:16:06.320 even in Shiver,
00:16:07.200 you can see the difference
00:16:08.420 in quality of artwork
00:16:09.600 between different stories
00:16:10.700 depending on
00:16:11.320 when it is
00:16:12.360 that they were published,
00:16:13.380 and I do think
00:16:14.360 that Uzumaki
00:16:15.880 and particularly
00:16:16.800 Yo,
00:16:18.040 when you get to that
00:16:18.800 late 90s
00:16:19.640 to early 2000s
00:16:20.800 period
00:16:21.080 is really
00:16:22.360 when his artwork
00:16:23.260 starts to hit its stride.
00:16:24.660 It had been excellent
00:16:25.360 up to that point,
00:16:26.320 and obviously
00:16:26.720 he was always
00:16:27.340 amazing at crafting
00:16:28.700 unnerving images,
00:16:29.760 but that's when
00:16:30.380 the detail meshed
00:16:32.000 with the ideas,
00:16:33.080 meshed with the technique
00:16:34.260 to really create
00:16:35.580 something that stands out
00:16:36.660 as something special.
00:16:37.480 In fact,
00:16:37.740 I'd say Yo alone
00:16:38.880 is some of the best
00:16:40.360 horror artwork
00:16:41.540 or artwork of any kind
00:16:42.920 I've seen
00:16:43.420 in most stories.
00:16:44.320 The level of detail
00:16:45.500 put into it
00:16:46.320 is remarkable.
00:16:48.600 So in Shiver,
00:16:49.560 we've got,
00:16:50.180 again,
00:16:50.720 a collection of short stories,
00:16:52.420 and it goes from
00:16:53.500 things like
00:16:54.140 Used Record,
00:16:55.440 which I thought
00:16:56.400 was quite a good one.
00:16:57.540 That's a good opener
00:16:58.540 because it really
00:16:59.840 doesn't indulge
00:17:00.660 in the gore
00:17:01.440 or the disturbing imagery.
00:17:04.140 It's more of that
00:17:05.060 conceptual horror
00:17:06.820 where a girl,
00:17:08.140 it's very,
00:17:08.600 very simple,
00:17:09.120 as you would expect
00:17:09.700 with short stories.
00:17:10.600 A girl ends up
00:17:11.640 accidentally killing
00:17:12.440 her friend
00:17:13.200 after she attempts
00:17:14.260 to steal a record
00:17:15.220 from her
00:17:16.040 because this record
00:17:16.940 has this enchanting song
00:17:18.580 that you can't get
00:17:19.340 anywhere else.
00:17:20.080 It's very rare.
00:17:21.280 There's no label on it.
00:17:23.020 And it seems to cut in
00:17:24.840 halfway through a recording.
00:17:26.980 It's a woman's lone voice
00:17:29.380 singing a cappella,
00:17:30.980 this haunting melody.
00:17:32.740 And nobody knows
00:17:33.600 where it came from
00:17:34.560 and nobody knows
00:17:35.280 what the record is of,
00:17:36.360 but it seems to have
00:17:37.180 an enchanting effect
00:17:38.400 on the people
00:17:39.400 who listen to the music
00:17:40.520 that makes them obsess
00:17:41.700 over it.
00:17:42.760 So you have
00:17:43.300 these themes
00:17:45.700 of obsession
00:17:46.400 which tend to crop up
00:17:47.860 a lot throughout
00:17:48.520 Ito's work.
00:17:49.380 It also has a particular
00:17:50.720 theme in this one
00:17:51.480 which is that jazz is evil.
00:17:54.680 Which I don't necessarily
00:17:55.960 disagree with
00:17:56.840 because it's a jazz melody.
00:17:57.140 What did he mean by this?
00:17:58.560 It's a jazz melody.
00:18:00.580 Shockingly enough,
00:18:01.520 none of Ito's stories
00:18:02.600 as far as I can tell
00:18:03.540 contain any diversity
00:18:05.140 whatsoever.
00:18:05.980 They're all Japanese.
00:18:08.340 One thing I will say
00:18:09.840 about the record thing,
00:18:11.440 obviously it's meant
00:18:12.280 to be akin to
00:18:13.440 a kind of siren song,
00:18:15.460 something that is
00:18:17.580 possessing people
00:18:19.500 as soon as they hear it
00:18:20.480 and driving them
00:18:21.560 to listen to it endlessly
00:18:22.860 and disregard human life
00:18:24.520 and their own safety
00:18:26.260 in order to pursue it.
00:18:27.500 But it did remind me
00:18:28.680 and this happened
00:18:29.600 after, I believe,
00:18:31.420 the record story
00:18:32.700 was put out.
00:18:34.080 But did you ever hear
00:18:34.900 about the Bjork Stalker?
00:18:36.040 I've heard of it
00:18:38.740 but refresh my memory.
00:18:40.120 So Dankil has done
00:18:40.800 a fantastic video on it
00:18:42.140 that is really unsettling.
00:18:43.620 It's like watching
00:18:44.180 a real life
00:18:45.200 Joaquin Felix's Joker.
00:18:49.780 This Hispanic heritage guy
00:18:52.040 gets obsessed
00:18:52.880 with Icelandic singer Bjork
00:18:54.320 who is quite neotenous.
00:18:56.880 She's quite childlike
00:18:57.740 and she has a very similar voice
00:18:59.100 to the one that's implied
00:19:00.800 in the record story
00:19:01.620 and then is actually sung
00:19:02.660 in the adaptation.
00:19:04.100 And it's almost like
00:19:05.160 watching over the course
00:19:06.320 of him filming himself,
00:19:08.880 getting obsessed
00:19:09.620 with this woman
00:19:10.120 and wanting to punish her
00:19:12.500 with like an acid bomb
00:19:13.820 for dating someone
00:19:15.140 other than him
00:19:15.800 and then eventually
00:19:16.480 killing himself.
00:19:17.360 It's like watching
00:19:18.780 a real life version of that.
00:19:20.400 So the idea that
00:19:21.580 someone can become
00:19:22.600 so obsessed with a melody,
00:19:25.320 particularly that strange,
00:19:26.520 haunting, childlike melody
00:19:28.440 that Bjork would sing
00:19:29.680 or in that,
00:19:30.580 to then drive them
00:19:31.400 to hurt other people
00:19:32.540 and themselves.
00:19:33.760 It's unsettling
00:19:34.760 and it has happened.
00:19:36.740 So Ito seems to be
00:19:37.820 tapping into real
00:19:39.440 and visceral
00:19:40.160 and possible things.
00:19:42.320 That's why his body horror
00:19:43.360 is so unsettling for me.
00:19:45.380 Well, he said
00:19:45.960 in many interviews himself
00:19:47.280 that his inspiration
00:19:48.340 mainly comes from
00:19:49.160 the everyday world
00:19:50.180 around him
00:19:51.080 because there is
00:19:51.860 so much mundane
00:19:53.620 and almost monotonous
00:19:54.820 things that we take
00:19:55.620 for granted
00:19:56.140 that you can find
00:19:57.540 and in a way
00:19:58.420 twist them
00:19:59.340 into something
00:20:00.380 unexpected,
00:20:01.340 unusual,
00:20:02.200 disturbing.
00:20:02.740 And on that story
00:20:03.800 that you just told,
00:20:04.360 you've reminded me as well.
00:20:05.680 It's slightly different
00:20:07.460 but still of the same character
00:20:08.980 of what you described.
00:20:10.820 There was a band
00:20:12.080 in the 90s
00:20:13.060 called Pantera
00:20:14.080 who were a very famous
00:20:15.120 heavy metal band.
00:20:16.100 They split up
00:20:16.720 in the year 2000
00:20:17.660 after releasing
00:20:18.680 their last album
00:20:19.460 and then they all
00:20:20.460 went their separate ways
00:20:21.380 and their guitarist
00:20:22.340 and drummer
00:20:22.720 who were brothers
00:20:23.420 formed another band
00:20:24.780 called Damage Plan.
00:20:26.320 It turned out
00:20:27.060 that there was
00:20:27.540 an obsessive,
00:20:28.640 crazy,
00:20:29.260 schizophrenic fan
00:20:30.680 of Pantera
00:20:31.360 who had developed
00:20:33.140 an obsession
00:20:34.040 with them
00:20:34.680 and also developed
00:20:36.000 the delusion
00:20:36.800 that they had been
00:20:37.680 stealing musical ideas
00:20:39.440 from his head
00:20:40.580 so that these ideas
00:20:42.880 for riffs
00:20:43.600 and songs
00:20:44.360 would pop up
00:20:44.960 in his head
00:20:45.400 and all of a sudden
00:20:46.200 oh Pantera
00:20:47.300 stole that from me
00:20:48.540 and so he thought
00:20:49.660 that they were
00:20:50.240 basically excavating
00:20:51.780 his mind
00:20:52.760 to steal ideas
00:20:54.020 and he went
00:20:55.160 so crazy with this
00:20:56.720 that when
00:20:57.280 the band
00:20:58.480 Damage Plan
00:20:59.340 the follow-up band
00:21:00.360 were playing
00:21:01.360 I think near his town
00:21:02.740 he ends up
00:21:03.820 going there
00:21:04.640 with a gun
00:21:05.360 and shoots
00:21:06.600 Dimebag Darryl
00:21:07.660 and a few other
00:21:08.560 members of the audience
00:21:09.680 no other members
00:21:10.460 of the band
00:21:10.780 he shoots Dimebag Darryl
00:21:11.900 dead on stage
00:21:13.340 and I think he got
00:21:14.080 took out
00:21:14.560 by the security
00:21:16.000 so yeah
00:21:16.820 music has this
00:21:17.920 really otherworldly
00:21:20.060 and obsessive
00:21:20.880 effect on a lot
00:21:21.840 of people
00:21:22.280 it's one of the
00:21:22.760 reasons that
00:21:23.240 so many people
00:21:23.880 love music so much
00:21:24.980 but it can be
00:21:25.740 the danger
00:21:26.200 that comes with
00:21:26.740 any of these
00:21:27.440 things that people
00:21:31.600 really love
00:21:32.140 artistically
00:21:32.880 and that's the
00:21:33.760 interesting thing
00:21:34.360 about the story
00:21:35.060 is that the song
00:21:35.760 itself comes
00:21:36.860 after the singer
00:21:37.900 has died
00:21:38.620 she gets hit
00:21:39.600 by a car
00:21:40.220 manages to
00:21:41.380 drag herself
00:21:42.340 into the studio
00:21:43.140 that she was
00:21:43.800 going to
00:21:44.380 and dies
00:21:45.740 in the studio
00:21:46.340 and then
00:21:47.020 begins
00:21:47.640 singing the song
00:21:48.940 so it also
00:21:49.680 taps into that
00:21:50.480 idea that a lot
00:21:51.480 of people have
00:21:52.220 certainly as a
00:21:52.840 creative musical
00:21:53.660 person myself
00:21:54.360 that you're not
00:21:55.580 the one
00:21:56.120 writing the music
00:21:57.740 you're a
00:21:58.320 conduit
00:21:59.120 that absorbs
00:22:00.300 the music
00:22:01.080 and these ideas
00:22:02.140 from some
00:22:02.860 otherworldly
00:22:04.040 spiritual plane
00:22:05.020 but evidently
00:22:05.900 within this story
00:22:06.880 the music is coming
00:22:08.240 from a malevolent
00:22:09.280 force
00:22:09.740 well there's also
00:22:10.380 there's two
00:22:11.440 things on that
00:22:12.200 one
00:22:13.120 you'll remember
00:22:13.780 which band it
00:22:14.380 was
00:22:14.820 was it ACDC
00:22:16.480 that they accused
00:22:17.300 if you played
00:22:17.840 a certain song
00:22:18.440 Judas Priest
00:22:19.100 Judas Priest
00:22:19.720 that was it
00:22:20.160 that they were
00:22:21.140 inciting their
00:22:22.340 followers to
00:22:23.300 commit suicide
00:22:24.440 or harm themselves
00:22:25.100 that's happened
00:22:25.120 with a few bands
00:22:26.060 Led Zeppelin
00:22:27.160 for instance
00:22:27.740 it was said
00:22:28.300 that if you
00:22:29.020 play Stairway to
00:22:30.700 Heaven backwards
00:22:31.540 that you've got
00:22:32.380 lyrics praising
00:22:33.280 Satan
00:22:33.760 you can play
00:22:34.800 the song backwards
00:22:35.680 I mean
00:22:36.360 it's not an
00:22:36.900 enjoyable experience
00:22:37.760 but there's no
00:22:38.460 secret messages
00:22:39.220 there
00:22:39.520 same with
00:22:40.280 Judas Priest
00:22:40.900 songs
00:22:41.340 again
00:22:42.060 it's people
00:22:42.880 putting their
00:22:44.660 own
00:22:45.160 interpretations
00:22:46.380 onto these
00:22:47.200 things
00:22:47.440 and trying to
00:22:48.020 draw it out
00:22:48.660 into the real
00:22:49.300 world
00:22:49.680 that kind of
00:22:50.360 obsessiveness
00:22:50.820 particularly among
00:22:51.660 groupies and
00:22:52.560 teenage girl fans
00:22:53.380 manifested in
00:22:54.060 things like
00:22:54.380 Cuts for Bieber
00:22:55.000 when we were
00:22:55.560 growing up
00:22:56.100 oh I remember
00:22:57.020 that yeah
00:22:57.660 but then the
00:22:58.100 other thing
00:22:58.420 that you made
00:22:58.840 me think of
00:22:59.300 is that
00:23:00.040 the idea
00:23:00.820 that they have
00:23:01.500 recorded her
00:23:02.280 voice after
00:23:02.900 she's died
00:23:03.580 that her
00:23:04.240 death rattle
00:23:04.860 can become
00:23:05.320 some kind
00:23:05.760 of melody
00:23:06.160 that they can
00:23:06.680 then monetize
00:23:07.300 and sell on
00:23:07.920 has been
00:23:08.680 the complaint
00:23:09.220 of a lot
00:23:09.940 of people
00:23:10.320 in the music
00:23:10.800 industry
00:23:11.160 that the music
00:23:11.660 industry is
00:23:12.080 exploitative
00:23:12.520 we only need
00:23:13.360 to think of
00:23:13.720 Michael Jackson
00:23:14.360 where Sony
00:23:15.680 drove him to
00:23:16.360 bankruptcy
00:23:16.760 after he
00:23:17.360 cancelled the
00:23:17.740 Invincible tour
00:23:18.300 because of the
00:23:18.720 insensitivities of
00:23:19.460 9-11
00:23:19.860 Invincible being
00:23:20.880 the most expensive
00:23:22.100 record to have been
00:23:23.040 produced at that
00:23:23.780 time and then
00:23:24.700 after he dies
00:23:25.760 they quickly
00:23:26.680 acquire his
00:23:27.860 Elvis Beatles
00:23:29.020 catalogue and
00:23:29.940 his own catalogue
00:23:30.640 and start releasing
00:23:31.500 old tracks that he
00:23:32.440 never wanted to put
00:23:33.120 out including
00:23:34.060 remixing his songs
00:23:35.140 for the
00:23:36.240 Xscape album
00:23:37.200 with people
00:23:37.980 like Justin
00:23:38.360 Timberlake
00:23:39.020 and augmenting
00:23:41.120 his musical
00:23:42.180 intent to
00:23:43.360 keep profiting
00:23:44.320 off of his
00:23:45.020 corpse
00:23:45.400 and it's
00:23:46.540 rather morbid
00:23:47.280 but it's
00:23:47.620 something the
00:23:48.120 music industry
00:23:48.700 does do
00:23:49.760 and I think
00:23:50.300 that hints
00:23:51.040 at that
00:23:51.240 in that story
00:23:51.740 Yes
00:23:52.300 absolutely
00:23:53.100 and to
00:23:53.560 expand on
00:23:55.000 that point
00:23:55.380 as well
00:23:55.840 with Michael
00:23:56.400 Jackson
00:23:56.720 didn't they
00:23:57.140 do the
00:23:57.420 hologram tour
00:23:58.180 They've done
00:23:59.520 the same thing
00:24:00.780 for ABBA
00:24:01.160 now as well
00:24:01.640 haven't they
00:24:02.020 They've done
00:24:02.300 the same thing
00:24:04.480 for Ronnie
00:24:04.900 James Dio
00:24:05.800 Tupac
00:24:06.640 Tupac as well
00:24:07.940 It's very
00:24:08.800 morbid
00:24:09.320 I can't imagine
00:24:10.260 if I'd been
00:24:11.020 in the crowd
00:24:11.500 feeling comfortable
00:24:12.340 watching essentially
00:24:13.420 a shadow
00:24:15.500 on the wall
00:24:16.280 version of a
00:24:17.460 dead artist
00:24:18.220 going through
00:24:18.900 the motions
00:24:19.460 purely for the
00:24:20.180 sake of
00:24:20.540 monetizing
00:24:21.400 the record
00:24:22.120 labels who
00:24:22.800 own their
00:24:23.440 image
00:24:23.820 and with the
00:24:25.040 music it's the
00:24:25.640 same
00:24:25.920 Frank Zappa
00:24:26.780 one of my
00:24:27.260 favorite artists
00:24:28.080 he died in
00:24:28.860 1995
00:24:29.720 and I think
00:24:31.320 more albums of
00:24:32.360 his have been
00:24:32.840 released since
00:24:34.120 then than he
00:24:35.160 released in his
00:24:35.800 lifetime and
00:24:36.460 bear in mind he
00:24:37.040 released over 60
00:24:38.000 albums in his
00:24:39.160 own lifetime and
00:24:40.200 all of this is
00:24:41.020 throw away
00:24:42.900 cutting room
00:24:43.760 floor material
00:24:44.880 that evidently if
00:24:45.900 he wanted
00:24:46.500 releasing he
00:24:48.040 would have
00:24:48.620 released he
00:24:49.160 released enough
00:24:49.740 bloody material in
00:24:50.620 his life to get
00:24:51.580 out basically most
00:24:52.600 of what he wanted
00:24:53.320 out there so I
00:24:54.780 think that's
00:24:55.120 interesting that
00:24:55.800 such a short
00:24:56.900 story we could
00:24:57.720 draw so much
00:24:58.520 from but that's
00:24:59.040 the effect of
00:24:59.740 horror I think
00:25:01.560 especially short
00:25:02.580 and condensed
00:25:03.340 horror and so
00:25:04.420 yeah it's a nice
00:25:05.380 unsettling story
00:25:06.880 if we move on to
00:25:08.020 the next one the
00:25:08.680 one that the
00:25:09.160 collection is named
00:25:10.140 after Shiver I
00:25:11.480 think this touches
00:25:12.080 on some themes
00:25:13.200 that we'll talk
00:25:14.120 about more with
00:25:15.060 Yo because this
00:25:16.660 was one of the
00:25:17.160 more notable
00:25:18.800 ones for me if
00:25:19.880 only because of
00:25:20.560 the imagery that's
00:25:21.400 used in it which
00:25:22.160 really hits on
00:25:23.380 I think it's
00:25:24.160 trypophobia the
00:25:25.680 fear of holes
00:25:26.900 particularly holes
00:25:27.880 in your own
00:25:28.400 body because one
00:25:29.140 of the recurring
00:25:29.780 visuals throughout
00:25:31.380 this is that the
00:25:32.500 main character is
00:25:33.220 living next to a
00:25:34.160 girl with holes all
00:25:36.180 in her arms what's
00:25:37.140 what's got you
00:25:37.680 smirking
00:25:38.200 I have not had a
00:25:41.560 fear of holes in
00:25:42.540 many women's bodies
00:25:43.200 before Harry I don't
00:25:44.040 know what you're
00:25:44.320 talking about
00:25:44.760 I don't know I
00:25:45.780 don't know maybe
00:25:46.280 you're a braver man
00:25:47.360 than I clearly I
00:25:48.600 mean if it was on
00:25:49.280 her arm I'd be
00:25:50.420 freaked out
00:25:51.080 yeah pretty strange
00:25:51.960 no the most
00:25:52.980 disturbing part of
00:25:53.760 this story is the
00:25:54.700 granddad's diary
00:25:55.640 when he starts
00:25:56.540 describing all of
00:25:57.560 the insects that
00:25:58.440 are somehow linked
00:25:59.100 to the jade carving
00:26:00.080 crawling around
00:26:00.840 inside him
00:26:01.540 that really
00:26:03.500 unsettles me
00:26:04.180 yeah so it turns
00:26:05.380 out the reason
00:26:06.100 for it is that
00:26:06.900 there's a cursed
00:26:07.820 jade carving which
00:26:09.220 has been thrown
00:26:09.860 into the next
00:26:10.560 door neighbor's
00:26:11.260 garden which has
00:26:12.020 cursed their
00:26:12.700 daughter and the
00:26:15.040 reason for that
00:26:16.040 carving existing in
00:26:16.980 the first place if I
00:26:17.640 recall is because
00:26:18.720 the grandfather
00:26:19.380 during World War
00:26:20.700 II managed to
00:26:22.700 find it and kept
00:26:23.660 a hold of it
00:26:24.260 before he ended
00:26:25.220 up dying due to
00:26:27.760 it and he ended
00:26:28.240 up throwing it out
00:26:29.280 of the window
00:26:29.900 before he died
00:26:30.980 because it was an
00:26:31.800 affliction that
00:26:32.560 nobody in the
00:26:33.280 family could
00:26:33.820 understand and
00:26:34.960 again this all
00:26:36.600 touched on more
00:26:37.600 in Gyo but it
00:26:38.360 seems to relate
00:26:41.580 back to the idea
00:26:43.000 of World War II
00:26:44.180 guilt guilt over
00:26:46.740 atrocities guilt
00:26:48.220 over crimes
00:26:49.020 committed the
00:26:49.560 idea that an
00:26:50.660 entire generation
00:26:51.740 of Japanese
00:26:52.560 men in particular
00:26:53.940 were cursed
00:26:55.060 through their
00:26:55.560 involvement in the
00:26:56.400 conflict and that
00:26:57.520 this is now being
00:26:58.360 passed on to their
00:26:59.520 descendants and this
00:27:01.000 does seem to be a
00:27:01.900 pathology that
00:27:02.620 affects quite a few
00:27:03.700 Japanese people
00:27:04.620 Ito comments on it
00:27:06.340 quite a bit not in
00:27:07.460 his interviews that I
00:27:08.500 could see although
00:27:09.440 you might have seen
00:27:10.080 some different
00:27:10.540 interviews than I
00:27:11.340 have but it seems
00:27:13.340 to go one of two
00:27:14.480 ways in Japan
00:27:15.880 either a trauma
00:27:17.380 relating to guilt
00:27:18.580 or a trauma
00:27:19.520 relating to the
00:27:20.840 fire bombings and
00:27:21.800 nuclear bombs that
00:27:22.780 have been dropped
00:27:23.100 because it is a
00:27:23.960 theme that runs
00:27:24.620 through a lot of
00:27:25.220 manga and anime
00:27:26.500 that I've seen
00:27:26.960 Akira starts with
00:27:29.000 the nuclear bomb
00:27:30.260 being dropped on
00:27:31.140 New Tokyo
00:27:32.140 Tokyo so in that
00:27:33.360 universe Tokyo had
00:27:34.740 been nuked
00:27:35.400 they rebuilt it
00:27:36.480 and then it got
00:27:36.920 nuked again
00:27:37.760 and it's all set
00:27:38.780 after the fallout
00:27:39.700 of that because
00:27:40.260 obviously being
00:27:41.780 nuked does things
00:27:43.000 to a country's
00:27:44.300 mass psych
00:27:44.940 especially one as
00:27:46.140 conformist and as
00:27:47.840 a collective in
00:27:49.480 its culture as
00:27:50.300 Japan
00:27:50.720 and then also
00:27:52.420 I've not watched
00:27:55.000 it but you've
00:27:55.660 watched it haven't
00:27:56.180 you Grave of the
00:27:56.760 Fireflies
00:27:57.400 there's all
00:27:58.400 throughout Ghibli
00:27:59.080 there is a lot
00:28:00.580 of nuclear
00:28:01.540 annihilation imagery
00:28:02.540 you can go and
00:28:03.360 watch my two-part
00:28:04.560 conversation with
00:28:05.400 former employee
00:28:06.720 John Wheatley
00:28:07.380 there where I was
00:28:08.020 much more bright
00:28:08.600 eyed and bushy
00:28:09.120 tailed back in the
00:28:09.900 day but
00:28:10.340 weren't we all
00:28:11.160 yeah quite in
00:28:12.320 Nausicaa Valley of
00:28:13.360 the Wind there are
00:28:14.020 these ohms these
00:28:14.960 giant moving
00:28:15.960 cephalopod like
00:28:17.760 bugs from
00:28:18.620 prehistoric times
00:28:19.480 that crawl over the
00:28:20.300 nuclear wasteland
00:28:20.940 eating radiation
00:28:21.660 and in order to
00:28:22.960 defeat them they
00:28:23.680 resurrect the fire
00:28:24.900 giants an extinct
00:28:25.960 race that can cause
00:28:26.980 nuclear mushroom
00:28:27.900 clouds to expand
00:28:28.940 in Totoro
00:28:32.400 famously it's meant
00:28:34.160 to be a sort of
00:28:34.640 parallel 1960s
00:28:35.860 Japan where
00:28:36.680 the fallout of
00:28:39.740 the war did not
00:28:40.660 impact Japan and
00:28:41.640 debilitate it as
00:28:42.360 much and actually
00:28:43.040 they preserved the
00:28:44.140 countryside rather
00:28:44.840 than building on
00:28:45.440 top of it to
00:28:45.980 create places like
00:28:46.820 Tokyo in the hills
00:28:48.100 and when they're
00:28:49.220 cultivating trees
00:28:50.080 they grow them up
00:28:50.840 to be the shape of
00:28:51.700 the mushroom cloud
00:28:52.520 Grave of the
00:28:53.320 Fireflies was an
00:28:54.920 autobiographical
00:28:55.960 text it was
00:28:57.400 adapted from a
00:28:57.940 short story where
00:28:59.180 the victims of
00:29:00.980 the fire bombings
00:29:01.920 of Japan sort of
00:29:02.660 civilians who
00:29:03.240 weren't involved in
00:29:04.240 it were two
00:29:05.200 children whose
00:29:05.940 mother was burned
00:29:07.840 alive and sent to
00:29:09.060 live with an aunt
00:29:09.880 who didn't provide
00:29:10.420 them enough
00:29:10.700 rations so they
00:29:11.780 move out to an
00:29:12.920 old war bunker and
00:29:14.420 you see the most
00:29:16.160 harrowing slow
00:29:17.880 starvation of a
00:29:19.220 young girl and
00:29:19.740 eventually her older
00:29:20.400 brother who dies in
00:29:22.080 a train station
00:29:22.680 holding her remains
00:29:23.540 I recommend
00:29:24.900 everyone watch it
00:29:25.540 it's one of the
00:29:25.880 best films I've
00:29:26.360 ever seen
00:29:26.700 no wonder
00:29:27.320 everybody who's
00:29:28.300 watched it has
00:29:28.980 told me that it
00:29:29.660 is harrowing
00:29:30.600 man I cried
00:29:31.520 it's just it's
00:29:32.360 brutal but it's
00:29:33.820 even in the most
00:29:35.000 optimistic of
00:29:36.620 anime from
00:29:38.860 Ghibli because
00:29:39.640 Grave of the
00:29:40.340 Fireflies and
00:29:40.880 Totoro releases a
00:29:41.720 double billing and
00:29:42.760 depending on which
00:29:43.360 way round you
00:29:44.160 watched them
00:29:44.640 Jesus Christ
00:29:45.660 yeah it's the
00:29:46.080 original Barbenheimer
00:29:46.860 it's brutal
00:29:47.560 because I've
00:29:47.900 watched my
00:29:48.400 neighbour Totoro
00:29:49.160 and it's not a
00:29:51.720 miserable film it's
00:29:52.660 quite a pleasant
00:29:53.720 fun happy-go-lucky
00:29:55.080 film it's basically
00:29:55.780 got no plot it's
00:29:56.520 pure vibes and
00:29:57.280 it's pure we're
00:29:58.420 happy and it's
00:29:59.300 like Alice in
00:29:59.720 Wonderland if I
00:30:00.340 remember it's
00:30:00.840 mainly about a
00:30:01.480 little girl going
00:30:02.320 to a bus stop
00:30:03.020 near her home and
00:30:04.140 finding that there
00:30:04.780 is a big magical
00:30:05.560 creature there who
00:30:06.460 she becomes friends
00:30:07.180 with and that's the
00:30:08.020 entire film they
00:30:08.920 move to rural
00:30:10.020 Japan and they
00:30:10.740 discover in the
00:30:11.420 bushes there is a
00:30:12.560 giant friendly
00:30:13.380 rabbit and a
00:30:14.120 series of smaller
00:30:14.760 other troll-like
00:30:15.580 rabbits even you
00:30:16.460 just describing it
00:30:17.300 is making me smile
00:30:18.200 because it's so
00:30:18.780 pleasant and then
00:30:19.660 the other film they
00:30:20.340 show it with is
00:30:21.080 here's a three-year-old
00:30:22.100 girl who starves to
00:30:22.880 death slowly because
00:30:23.600 of the Japanese
00:30:24.180 intervention in the
00:30:24.900 war
00:30:25.060 I'd rather have
00:30:27.300 fireflies first and
00:30:29.300 then Totoro as a
00:30:30.860 nice you know
00:30:31.420 palate cleanser
00:30:32.320 I don't know it
00:30:32.740 would feel offensive
00:30:33.400 if it was following
00:30:34.120 it but the point
00:30:34.840 being the nuclear
00:30:36.980 Armageddon looms
00:30:38.300 large in the mind
00:30:39.960 of the Japanese and
00:30:40.900 also the fire
00:30:41.380 bombings of Tokyo
00:30:42.540 which claimed more
00:30:43.820 lives overall
00:30:44.900 more destructive
00:30:45.540 yeah so it's not
00:30:46.340 just the horrors of
00:30:47.800 war that were
00:30:48.320 inflicted on the
00:30:49.420 civilians and
00:30:49.800 bystanders but also
00:30:50.760 the guilt for the
00:30:51.820 Japanese involving
00:30:52.520 themselves in the
00:30:53.080 war and the
00:30:53.720 things that were
00:30:54.080 done and I think
00:30:55.040 this story
00:30:56.080 particularly Shiva
00:30:56.740 it alludes to
00:30:58.880 something that
00:30:59.660 and this is my
00:31:00.900 conspiratorial hat on
00:31:02.020 here
00:31:02.280 I don't know if
00:31:04.280 Ito has a family
00:31:05.700 secret of his own
00:31:06.480 pertaining to the
00:31:07.100 war because when we
00:31:08.220 get on to Gyo
00:31:08.880 there was an
00:31:10.820 interview that I
00:31:11.460 read where he
00:31:12.360 said that this was
00:31:13.040 inspired by two
00:31:13.660 things Gyo was
00:31:14.760 inspired by the
00:31:15.860 shark attack scenes
00:31:16.460 in Jaws and
00:31:17.920 stories that his
00:31:19.260 parents had told
00:31:20.300 him about the
00:31:21.240 war and the
00:31:23.480 submerged ship
00:31:24.960 that was full of
00:31:25.980 these plague
00:31:27.380 bearing mechanized
00:31:28.840 legs things that
00:31:32.060 run on gas that
00:31:32.880 hijack a living
00:31:35.260 creature
00:31:35.580 deteriorating
00:31:36.040 corpse yeah
00:31:36.760 this seems to
00:31:38.840 have come from a
00:31:39.920 unit 731 mission
00:31:42.040 that sought to
00:31:43.720 load up biological
00:31:45.120 weapons and send
00:31:46.160 them at the US
00:31:46.900 but then the
00:31:48.680 submarines ended up
00:31:49.480 being sunk
00:31:49.980 why would his
00:31:52.460 family have
00:31:53.440 necessarily known
00:31:54.360 about that it's
00:31:55.480 the same thing of
00:31:56.120 is there a family
00:31:57.020 secret here to do
00:31:57.880 with things that
00:31:58.360 were done during
00:31:58.840 the war well he
00:31:59.800 was born in the
00:32:00.560 60s so I could
00:32:01.700 hazard a guess that
00:32:02.560 at the very least
00:32:03.180 he'd probably have a
00:32:04.020 grandfather if not
00:32:05.180 his own father who
00:32:06.580 was involved in the
00:32:07.500 war on the
00:32:08.640 Japanese side of
00:32:09.760 course and unit
00:32:11.160 731 is by far
00:32:13.480 the worst and most
00:32:15.440 atrocious unit of
00:32:16.820 the Japanese
00:32:17.200 military they
00:32:18.020 subjected I think
00:32:18.900 it was 14,000 men
00:32:20.240 women and children
00:32:20.860 to vivisections
00:32:22.400 torture various
00:32:23.500 bodily experiments
00:32:24.600 seeing the effect of
00:32:26.380 what frostbite does
00:32:27.340 to living limbs and
00:32:28.740 then over 300,000
00:32:30.080 people total were
00:32:31.180 killed by their
00:32:32.200 biological weapons
00:32:33.040 and if that is the
00:32:36.160 example it's based
00:32:36.880 on because it seems
00:32:37.580 very similar how
00:32:40.020 would he have known
00:32:40.540 if it wasn't a
00:32:41.060 family story and so
00:32:41.920 the idea that there
00:32:42.680 are family secrets
00:32:43.680 following the war
00:32:44.340 this is inflicted
00:32:46.320 with a burden of
00:32:48.260 being sworn to
00:32:49.180 secrecy onto
00:32:50.400 younger generations
00:32:51.280 like the girl who
00:32:52.080 is born with these
00:32:53.080 holes in her body
00:32:53.680 that she's breathing
00:32:54.240 through and she
00:32:54.940 can't understand why
00:32:56.020 because nobody has
00:32:57.060 told her nobody
00:32:57.700 even realizes the
00:32:59.280 jade carving is in
00:33:00.780 the garden exactly
00:33:01.680 nobody necessarily
00:33:03.460 admits to the
00:33:05.500 secrets lurking in
00:33:06.560 your own backyard
00:33:07.300 is this a personal
00:33:08.840 thing for Ito
00:33:09.500 we don't actually
00:33:10.360 know well we know
00:33:11.540 in the same way that
00:33:12.640 Nietzsche said that
00:33:13.360 all philosophy is
00:33:14.280 confession in a
00:33:15.140 certain way all
00:33:15.660 storytelling is
00:33:16.560 confession because as
00:33:17.960 much as we can
00:33:18.700 admit and I do think
00:33:19.900 that there's a lot of
00:33:20.520 stock I do a lot put a
00:33:21.680 lot of stock into what
00:33:22.400 I described in the
00:33:23.080 used record that you
00:33:24.400 are almost acting as a
00:33:25.720 conduit for ideas that
00:33:27.900 are being transmitted to
00:33:29.400 you
00:33:29.740 it's like the Geist
00:33:30.700 idea that momentarily
00:33:32.240 the gods might strike you
00:33:35.100 with divine inspiration
00:33:35.960 and so the Roman poet
00:33:36.860 must get it out here and
00:33:38.000 now in case that
00:33:39.240 inspiration flees from
00:33:41.480 him before he can
00:33:42.120 transcribe it if you
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