In this episode, I'm joined by Nick Hughes to discuss one of my favourite films of all time, The Lion in Winter, starring Peter O'Toole and Katherine Hepburn, directed by James Goldman and based on the life of Henry the Young King.
00:05:25.280Well, that's how deals are made. We've got him if we want him.
00:05:31.040And that's saying something when you're up against the likes of Hopkins and O'Toole. But yeah,
00:05:37.440also this idea that the tension or the drama of people that love each other and despise each other.
00:05:48.400Luckily, my family isn't anywhere near that intense, but there's that sort of dynamic in families in all
00:05:54.800sorts of ways that you wouldn't dream of actually hurting each other, but you also kind of hate each other and all that,
00:06:00.800all those sorts of very extreme dynamics going on. Obviously, it's dialed up to bloody 20 in this, in this family.
00:06:07.680But yeah, just the, the, the, the, the dialogue is also absolutely superb. And well, one thing I just would like to mention is that they did do a remake of it in like 2003 with like Glenn Close. And was it Patrick Stewart?
00:06:24.560I've watched a bit of it. I haven't even watched it all. I couldn't get through it. I, I, I deny it. It didn't happen.
00:06:31.680Um, yeah, we're not going to be talking about the 2003 or 2005 or whatever it was version of it. Just a, just a classic 1968 one. Um, so yeah, I guess where, where, where would you like to start? Because it was one thing I was just found out. Um, I had known before, but I'd forgotten, but that it was Anthony Hopkins film debut. That's remarkable, isn't it?
00:06:56.080Yeah. It was the film debuts of, of the four young actors. It was three of them were making their debut. So most famously, it was Anthony Hopkins film debut. He had been a rising star in the mid sixties in the Royal Shakespeare Company.
00:07:11.680And all, all, all four of the young actors were cast, um, because of Peter O'Toole. Peter O'Toole just said, okay, we, we, we, he loved the script. He convinced Catherine Hepburn to come on board, uh, because they'd known each other for years.
00:07:27.520And he said, we, I, I need an older actress in her late fifties, early sixties, who is a legend of the screen. And it was either going to be Catherine Hepburn or Vivian Lee, but Vivian Lee, I think had died just a few months previously.
00:07:40.800And he said, it's got to be Catherine Hepburn and no one else. So he made the call to her. And then he was, uh, the casting director put forward all these names of young British actors who were on the, uh, up and coming and he met them and he said, right. Hopkins. Um, he's, he's great. He understands what he needs to do in this film.
00:08:01.980Um, and then it was also the film debut of Timothy Dalton. He was just out of RADA. He had no screen acting and only about a couple of plays under his belt.
00:08:11.200Um, Nigel Terry, who plays John, that was his film debut. He was 20. And John Castle playing Jeff. He'd only had one film that was blow up in 1966. And he guests stars in an episode of the prisoner. That's his, the sum of his film acting experience.
00:08:29.200And they hire these four and then just drop them into this intense, brilliantly written period drama with Peter O'Toole and Catherine Hepburn.
00:08:40.200And the fact that they all, all four of them hold their own and they all have their moments. I mean, it's a testament to the way that film comes together with the, particularly in the performances. They all know what they have to do. They all absolutely deliver those parts. And that's the problem with the remake is that it just, yeah, they're fine actors, but there's no magic. There's no magic. There's no chemistry in it.
00:09:09.000There's no, there's none of that. Yeah. Absolute rawness that you get with, with the 68 version.
00:09:15.980No, absolutely. I think, uh, John, uh, was probably the weakest performance and it's still great. I think, I think Jeffrey, is it John Castle? I think he's, he's, his performance is absolutely brilliant. Uh, there's no one weak in it really. Yeah. I watched about probably half, two thirds of the, of the remake. Um, and it was, as you say, no magic.
00:09:37.700You know, I gave it every opportunity I could and I couldn't finish it because I love this, the original 68 version so much. I've had it on VHS when I was a kid. Uh, when sort of the internet happened, it was among the first films I had downloaded. I've watched it. I don't know, 20, 30 times. I don't know. A silly number of times.
00:09:56.460I rewatched it last night for this. I haven't watched it in maybe a year or two. It's one of those films that every, every year or two, I find myself rewatching it. Never get tired of it. Uh, it's quite long. It's over two hours, isn't it?
00:10:08.420And, um, it's always seems to flash by for me. It always seems to flash by. I'm never bored, never bored with it, even though I've seen it so many times.
00:10:17.620Yeah. It goes to the, it goes at such a pace. Um, and that's partly to do with the dialogue, the intensity of the scenes and the, and the speed at which the actors perform it.
00:10:28.660I mean, um, Oh, Oh, Oh tool is just, um, he's playing a 50 year old man. So that's older than he was in real life. He was only 36, I think. Um, but he plays a 50 year old towards the end of his life so well. Um, but there's a kind of manic energy to Henry II as he's trying to scheme.
00:10:50.220I think we should talk a bit about the plot and the historical background. Um, but, uh, yeah, the, um, the production of it, I think, as you said, it was a play and it wasn't very successful, but everybody involved in the producing the play and directing the play, um, realized how good a script it was.
00:11:11.220And so it was given, it was sold on to a film producer, Joseph Levine, who had produced, I think the 1964 Beckett, the, um, the other Henry II film.
00:11:24.280And so he said, okay, let's get Peter O'Toole back to play this role. Um, and it is a cracking script. And in the end, it worked out better as a film than it did as a stage play.
00:11:36.280Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I would like to see it on stage just, just because, uh, but yeah, I was, I was reading that it sort of lost money, uh, which is strange, but I mean, that's the thing with the theater is that it has to be in, in the right theater and promoted in the right way. Otherwise it will probably fail.
00:11:55.000Um, but yeah, this, I mean, it got, it got nominated, was it for seven or eight Oscars and it won three. Uh, I think the score, um, not best picture, but Hepburn won for best actress and, um, anyway, critically acclaimed and anyone that watches it, you've will enjoy it.
00:12:12.260I think, um, it's not, it films from that era sometimes to the 21st century sort of TikToker mind, sometimes a very, very slow. I've got no problem with that, of course, but lots of people do.
00:12:24.200This isn't slow, right? It's not slow. It jumps straight in. It absolutely jumps straight in, introduces all the characters and each one is sort of a gem of a character.
00:12:33.740Um, and it, and it, it never slows down. It just keeps going. So yeah, the historical, some of the historical background. Um, it gives you a fair bit. It sort of lets you in. You don't need to know about the late 12th century and the reign of Henry Plantagener to watch this film. Um, but nevertheless, we can talk about it a bit. Yeah. He's, you know, he's got the, this empire, the Angevin empire, and it, it, it stretches from the Pyrenees to Scotland, essentially, and including Pyrenees.
00:13:03.740It's part of Ireland and all sorts of things. And the, the kingdom of France is relatively small. It's nothing like modern France. I mean, this takes place at, at Chinon, um, which is in the middle of France, south of Paris.
00:13:15.740So that gives you an idea. And that's, that's Henry's land, part of Henry's land. So that gives you an idea that, that France, the kingdom of France is kind of Paris and the areas around it in all sorts of ways, um, is nothing like the modern map of France.
00:13:31.740Um, yeah. Henry controls, um, yeah. Henry controls, controls most of what we in the modern day call France. Uh, so the power dynamic, you know, the king of France, Timothy Doughton is a far, far inferior partner in all of this, although still powerful.
00:13:47.740And it's only a generation or so before, well, it's about a generation later when John becomes king. Uh, this is the real history, uh, where, uh, Philip gets the upper hand and takes lots of French lands off of him.
00:14:00.740But that, that's a different story. In the 1180s, um, he had this, the, the eldest son, the eldest surviving son, another Henry, Henry, the young king, who had been groomed from the earliest age to succeed.
00:14:14.740He was heir and everyone expected him to, and all the other sons were just sort of spares, if you like. Um, and Henry, the young king dies and all the accounts, all the histories agree that that was sort of a devastating blow.
00:14:31.740I mean, kind of, obviously it was a devastating blow, but not just sort of interpersonally, not just for the family, but for the, for the, for the, for, well, for the history of Western Europe.
00:14:41.740It's a blow. It changes everything. And it means now that Richard, if, if not, not just Richard, but Richard, along with his scheming mother, Eleanor, the Duchess of Aquitaine, um,
00:14:54.740now see themselves as, well, they are power players very much in their own right. And there's, there's all sorts of tensions with them and Henry. Would you like to talk a touch about that?
00:15:05.740Yeah. So what we have, um, the film touches on, it mentions the young, the young Henry's death.
00:15:15.740Um, and that's the, the purpose of Henry gathering the family together at Sheenon is to settle the question because he's got us, Henry's got a scheme, which is to bypass Richard and go straight to John because he's, uh, Richard's grown up under his mother's influence and John's grown up under Henry's influence.
00:15:36.740And, uh, the, the original plan is obviously Henry was going to become King. Richard would be the, he'd be like a one man fire brigade. That would be his role as the second son. He would go off and fight the wars. He'd fight the battles. He'd go off to the crusades and he would, he would, he would represent the Plantagenet family on the battlefield.
00:15:57.740And Geoffrey would be groomed as an administrator and John, well, there is no set role for John in the original plan. Um, but once young Henry dies, um, the film has it that Henry the second kind of, he knows Richard's got the qualities of a King, but he's not going to make it easy for him because he is his mother's son.
00:16:26.740And so he's got this plan that it will be John and that he will personally groom John, um, for, for the role and bypass rich, keep Richard probably on as the, as the battlefield general that his role would be, whereas John would sit on the throne.
00:16:44.660Richard would fight the battles. Geoffrey would run the administration. That's Henry's. Oh, um, and he would marry. Yes.
00:16:52.380There's another significant character of Alice, who is the, a relation of Philip, the second of France.
00:16:59.340And she's going to either marry Richard or marry John, depending on which way Henry's feeling.
00:17:06.620Um, and that's not part of the arrangement he had with Philip the second's father.
00:17:34.780Um, so it gets really complex, all these, these webs, but it is, um, yeah, it's this dynastical, uh, issue that Henry, and Henry's trying to play 4d chess.
00:17:48.940It is a very popular buzz phrase in 2023, 24, but that's essentially what he's trying to do.
00:17:56.380And then he's hasn't quite reckoned on Eleanor, who also is very adept at playing 4d chess.
00:18:03.740Yeah. So we must talk a quick, a bit about, um, his relationship with, with his estranged wife, Eleanor of Aquitaine.
00:18:09.900So originally she'd been married to, uh, Louis VII of France and Henry, Henry had nicked her off of him, essentially.
00:18:20.380Uh, this is the years, decades before 1183.
00:18:23.580And, uh, so, yeah, the idea was that Henry, the young king would inherit.
00:18:26.940And at that point, the plan would be that, um, Richard would be made Duke of Aquitaine, Geoffrey would be given Brittany, and John would not have any lands.
00:18:39.100Well, he was called Lackland, John Lackland for a while.
00:18:42.220But of course, when the young king dies, all that has to change, you know, Richard is almost certainly probably going to become, uh, the king.
00:18:48.300And so you have to reshuffle everything.
00:18:50.860But already by that point, Eleanor had been in prison.
00:18:54.460So long before this, when the, when Henry, the young king was still alive, he'd raised a revolt against Henry a long time before this with, with, along with his mother.
00:19:06.320And so Henry had put her in prison, literally, literally just detained her because she could not be trusted.
00:19:16.540Now, as you said earlier, it's a good point that, um, um, James Goldman is sort of filling in gaps here, because although the record isn't too bad for Henry II, we don't know in detail what happened during the Christmas of 1183 at Sheenon.
00:19:33.640So the screenplay, the story is essentially a fiction, but, you know, he's got a, he must have, or did have, certainly, um, a very good grasp of everything.
00:19:43.660And there's one great line, for example, where Eleanor says, um, that she, she went on crusade with Louis years ago, and she wasn't sure if, uh, who was in charge, uh, you know, who was the most important, whether it was God or Christ, or whether it was Uncle Raymond.
00:20:00.800And, or small details like this, that shows he's got a very deep knowledge, a pretty deep knowledge of, of the real history.
00:20:07.540Um, so, um, so yeah, where, where would you like to start with the film?
00:20:13.400Because, uh, it is sort of a moment in time, isn't it?
00:22:32.640He looks like the red mist descends with Richard, but he's just got, just got enough to hold, hold his murderous instincts in.
00:22:38.940So when we meet Jeffrey, he's on a, he's kind of dealing with the, sorry, Nick, just a super quick note on that bit.
00:22:45.260I think that's a classic example of showing, not telling the showing that Richard's something close to a maniac, something close to just a stone cold killer, but isn't quiet.
00:22:58.720In fact, it can be reasoned with, um, and there's no dialogue.
00:24:06.340And then Eleanor arrives on this barge with trumpeters, with heralds.
00:24:11.260She's sitting on a throne and she is just looking the business.
00:24:15.420She's just looking, um, and Henry just runs up the battlements to see her arrive.
00:24:22.480He's like a, like a kid, you know, Oh, you know, mom's home, you know, and he, you know, he's, he's kind of, he's always in awe of Eleanor.
00:24:41.860The party can begin, you know, it's that.
00:24:44.660And again, none of those scenes have hardly any dialogue, but you just know the characters and you know how they're all going to relate.
00:24:52.140And when Philip II arrives, he's got an entourage, somebody's carrying his train, he's wearing a crown.
00:24:58.260So, and he's, he's looking young, cocky and confident.
00:25:01.420And that's what we need to know about Philip.
00:25:04.640Yes, he is a king and he's cocky and he's confident.
00:25:08.060How's he going to fare in front of Henry?
00:25:10.440A couple of things to say I wanted to say about, um, Eleanor.
00:25:12.960Uh, one that you, you do see a quick scene, just a super quick scene of, I think it's William the Marsha actually comes to her or one of Henry's men comes to her and says, you're, you're wanted at Sheenong because she's been holed up in Salisbury in England.
00:25:29.600And, uh, she knows she's going to be sort of let out, trotted out for Christmas, for Christmas court.
00:25:35.860Um, and so straight away for me anyway, and I think everyone else agrees, including the Academy, the, uh, Catherine Hepburn, uh, is, uh, mesmerizing in it.
00:25:47.340Uh, I really do think she steals nearly every scene she's in.
00:25:51.160Um, obviously she's a great actress, uh, but particularly from, I've seen her in all sorts of films, loads of films.
00:25:57.300Uh, but this is, this is the best thing I've ever saw her in.
00:26:04.200And then the thing is that she's American, right?
00:26:06.920Um, I think she'd recently, very recently lost her husband.
00:26:10.680Um, Spencer Tracy had died, like just a few months before they shot this.
00:26:15.140So I think a lot of her sort of sadness and things is quite real.
00:26:20.480Um, but no, she's American, but she's got that extremely unique accent and voice, hasn't she?
00:26:27.220She's, I suppose, she's basically very posh.
00:26:30.480She's like the poshest an American can be.
00:26:33.040You know, she was very rich and aristocratic as far as Americans are.
00:26:37.180How dear of you to let me out of jail.
00:26:40.480And so it doesn't stick out as just like, you know, a New York accent or anything.
00:27:58.160And how do certain actors handle their careers past the point of 50?
00:28:02.120And she does it extremely well in the line in the winter.
00:28:05.380She can hold her own in a, in a kind of new style of filmmaking with a new generation of younger actors
00:28:12.880who are just absolutely snapping at her heels.
00:28:17.420Um, I would say Burt Lancaster was another one.
00:28:20.680Jack Lemmon's another one that they can move into the 60s, 70s and 80s, um, and adapt their acting styles to the new style of filmmaking.
00:28:28.380And she's, she's one of the ones who can, you know, um, but, uh, I mean, the, the other favorite film of hers that, um, is the Philadelphia story, 1939 with Jimmy Stewart.
00:28:40.280Very sophisticated, again, sharp dialogue, but it's played, played for laughs, that one.
00:28:46.400But it's, um, she can go from being very glamorous for a 12th century noble woman to being kind of disheveled and bedraggled in certain scenes.
00:28:58.320Um, see, it is, it is, uh, it's probably a flawless performance.
00:29:03.980And again, her, her accent, because it was, I think, another classic actor who had, who could come to Britain and blend in was Gregory Peck, who has a kind of like toned down American accent, quite rich.
00:29:18.360Um, and, um, doesn't clash as like overtly American with the British cast.
00:29:27.620Um, sometimes they call it sort of mid-Atlantic, but, um, just, you know, yeah, New England, well-to-do.
00:29:34.060Like you say, yeah, it hasn't got a strong American draw to it, absolutely.
00:29:37.800There's a great bit when she first comes off the boat there, and there's a bit of dialogue where she says, you know, don't worry about me, I'm not weak, I'm not fragile.
00:29:45.500And I think, you know, that's, that's true of both Eleanor of Aquitaine and Katharine Hepburn.
00:29:51.500And as you say, she's in her early sixties and, um, uh, still good looking.
00:29:56.260And you can obviously tell that she was obviously extremely beautiful as a younger woman.
00:30:00.660Perfect to play Eleanor of Aquitaine in the 1180s.
00:31:03.200I know it's a bit of a, a cliche these days to have a strong female leader, you know, a girl boss, all that sort of thing.
00:31:08.820But if anyone really was, if anyone really, really was, uh, it would be Eleanor of Aquitaine, a power in her own right, an heiress in her own right.
00:31:17.620Didn't really take any crap from men ever.
00:31:21.620I mean, quite remarkable for the 12th century, really quite remarkable.
00:31:25.160Uh, I think one that, I think there's a line that when Henry II did eventually die in 1189,
00:31:31.740and, um, Richard basically immediately let her out of prison, um, uh, the account say something like,
00:31:40.340I think maybe even the marshal personally went and let her out.
00:31:44.860And the account said that she seemed entirely unbroken.
00:31:49.680Uh, it, that, that experience of being in prison for ages, 15 odd years or something, she'd been in prison.
00:31:54.420Um, it didn't break, and she's older now.
00:31:57.040She's definitely in her late 60s or even early 70s by that point.