PREVIEW： Epochs #167 ｜ The Catiline Conspiracy
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Summary
In this episode of Epochs, I chat with Elizabeth Heverin about the Catiline Conspiracy and the events that took place in Rome in the 60s and early 70s BC. Elizabeth is a writer and historian who has recently published an article in The Critic about the Gracchi brothers and their corruption in the Roman Republic.
Transcript
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Hello and welcome to this episode of Epochs where I shall be talking all about the Catiline
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Conspiracy, a very specific moment in time in ancient Rome in about 63, 62 AD, B.C. rather.
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And I'll be in conversation with Elizabeth Heverin, how are you?
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Yeah, thanks for coming in, I appreciate it. So you've recently been published in,
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Yeah, with a very good article about the Gracchi brothers, something I've written about myself.
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So you've got an interest in the ancient world and you've got knowledge about the ancient world.
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So just before we start, how come, why do you like the ancient world? What is it that's fascinating to you?
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I particularly, when it comes to the ancient world, I'm quite fascinated with the Roman Republic
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specifically. I think there's a lot of patterns within the republican world and our own time today,
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particularly the corruption and the consequences of that when it came to governmental life.
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I'm quite interested in the circular theory of the Republic, how you have this
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great civilisation that comes by overthrowing this tyrant of a monarch and it's then built on
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virtue and men seem to place their country first and seem to place virtue first rather than
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their self-interest. And then after a series of wars with Carthage, the world becomes corrupted with
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wealth and it's that decline and fall that I'm most interested in. But also studying the Roman Republic
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sort of brings me hope in the sense that the Republic doesn't die and fall apart. Instead,
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something better comes from its ashes, which is the Roman Empire. So it's like the circular theory of
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Do you think something similar might happen with the United States, the great republic of our age?
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I think throughout history, even after the Roman Republic, we've seen the circular theory of
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civilisations repeat themselves. So for example, one which applies most in Britain is the rise and
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decline of the Britons after the Roman Empire. And we see that throughout history with different
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royal families taking power and then falling and then other royal families come and take their place.
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So I think we're really living in the decline of another circular theory of civilisation in our own
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time. And what will come from the ashes is to be debated. And we can find these answers looking
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into the past, which is why the Roman Republic is so fascinating.
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Right. Yeah, that's an interesting point you point out there. I mean, we'll be talking all about
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Cicero, old Tully in this episode, and he's someone who said exactly that. If you remain ignorant of your
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past, you're forever to remain a child and doomed to repeat the failures of the past if you're not aware of
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the pitfalls that we've already gone through. So another thing you mentioned there that is interesting
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and will come up in our story, what about this concept of that your civilisation is in decline
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or that men are more degenerate, mankind is more degenerate and venal than they used to be.
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And that thing comes up in this, doesn't it? Because even by the 60s BC in Rome, so you know,
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after Sulla, but before Julius Caesar. So just to put it in context real quick, Sulla dies in what,
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like 78 BC, I think, and the events we're going to be talking about is 62 and 63 BC. So it's about 15
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years after Sulla dies. But we're not really into the age of Julius Caesar yet. He's a very, very junior
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politician, isn't he? It's sort of the rise of Pompey. Pompey's sort of the main guy, right,
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one of the most powerful people in Rome at this moment. So, yeah, the 60s BC. And even at that
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point, the Republic had this feeling, don't you think, of men used to be stronger and more virtuous
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and better in the past, even just like two generations ago. We were better two generations
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ago and now everyone's sleeping around and committing all sorts of crimes and the whole things,
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our whole civilisation is going to pot. Did you get that feeling reading the sources?
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Yeah, precisely. I think, for example, Sallis, that's right. He sort of talks about in the
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opening of his work on the Catiline conspiracy, about when he enters public office, he's sort
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of tempted by all these vices because there's so much vice within the Senate and within those in power
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that he says in the end, it makes him jealous of those who hold more power than him. And you sort of
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see that. It's this great wealth that comes into Rome that corrupts people's character. No longer
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is it about what can I do for my country. It's more of what can my country do for me. And I think
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Sallis puts it quite great when he says that men no longer make friends for merit. They instead
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only care for friendships if it's in their self-interest. And that's really what you see in the
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60s BC. Yeah, no, absolutely. Yeah, that men used to have virtues and principles that they would stand
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on come what may, and now everyone's just in the business of bribing their way into office and not
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doing the right thing when they get it. So you mentioned Sallis then, so I'd like to say a quick
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few words right at the beginning, as I usually do, about the sources. So we've actually sort of got
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an embarrassment of riches in a way when it comes to the Catiline conspiracy. There's a reason why
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people who don't know their Roman history might not ever have heard of the Catiline conspiracy.
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But if you have and you know your Roman history, it's one of the highlights, right? It's one of the more famous
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events. And it's quite a small period of time we're talking about, like less than a year from start
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to finish, right? So it's a fairly tight focus here. And we've got, well, Plutarch, there's the life of
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Cicero in Plutarch, but Plutarch also talks about the Catiline conspiracy in passing in other places.
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We've got Sallust, who did a whole small, very, very small book all about it. I've got my Sallust here.
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We'll be quoting from it. I think you've got some quotes. And also Cicero himself,
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not just his speeches, he sort of famously made three or was it four orations attacking Catiline?
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You did. Okay, the first one's the most important, famous one. So they survived to us incredibly.
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So we've got the actual speeches of Cicero and Sallust is a contemporary, he was alive at the time,
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as was Cicero, obviously. And then we've got Plutarch, what else? We've got Dio, Cassius Dio,
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talks a bit about it. So there's, oh, and Appian, of course, that talks a bit about it.
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So in one sense, we've got loads of information, right? For an ancient event in ancient history,
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that's loads of different sources. You would think that's great.
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Well, it is great. You know, if you go back to something like Herodotus,
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he might mention someone once in passing, and that's it. That's all the literary evidence we've
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got about something full stop. So when it comes to the Catiline conspiracy, we've got lots and lots
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of information. But perhaps it's too much really, because a lot of the sources are,
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most scholars and historians agree, completely biased. We're getting one side of the story,
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aren't we? We're getting Cicero's side of the story only. Sallust is a massive Cicero fan,
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a pretty big Cicero fan, certainly an enemy of, politically, of Catiline. So we've got a lot,
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but it's very dodgy ground. Do you know all about this debate surrounding the sources?
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Yeah, yeah, I do. But I think, you know, the fact that these sources remain, you know,
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they were quite popular for their age sort of illustrates what most of the majority of men
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thought of Catiline. I think in his first speech, I think Cicero puts it quite well. He puts,
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nobody in the Senate greets you anymore, and you sit by yourself. If I was you, I would, you know,
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flee Rome in shame. And, you know, although Cicero may be heavily biased, I think that that speech
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alone sort of illustrates what the rest of the Senate thinks of Catiline. No one ever brings up any
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admirable qualities or anything great he's done in his life. It's more, he's more of this representation
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of a life of shame and degeneracy and everything to avoid.
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Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Like, no one wants to sit with you, Catiline. Like, on the unpopular kid's table
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at lunch at school. There's just one kid on his own and no one wants to sit there. Yeah. So, I mean,
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let's get into it then. So let's talk about Catiline. Who was Catiline? Who is Catiline?
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Because if I could say a little bit more about the sources, it's in Cicero's interest politically
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to paint Catiline to be as bad as possible. And once we tell you the story and how it all plays out,
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you'll know why that is. But just to say, it's in his interest to make Catiline to be as evil and
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monstrous as possible. Sallust is on that bandwagon. Plutarch is a bit fairer, but he's still much
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more of a fan of Cicero than he is of Catiline. So the image we get from all the sources is that he's
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just terrible, just a black and white, terrible person. There's nothing redeeming about him.
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There's nothing good about him. Now, most serious historians, when you get a picture of someone
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coming back to you through time like that, you have to question it, right? You have to be,
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most people aren't usually that bad. You might get the odd person, like, I don't know,
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Joseph Mengele or something, or Stalin, or not even Stalin, I was going to say someone with no
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redeemable features. But it's very, very rare, isn't it? And so a lot of historians have said maybe
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what we're being told about Catiline is an exaggeration. But so let's start off. So who is he?
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He's a senator, right? That's right. He was expelled from running for council in 65 and 64 BC because of
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bribery and stuff like that. So I suppose that's more concrete evidence, you know, the fact that he's
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expelled, which shows that he really is not the most admirable politicians and the crowd that he sort of
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surrounds himself and sort of people in the Senate who backs his campaign or all people who are expelled
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for immorality, corruption, bribery. They're all figures that are sort of like him in the sense of
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their faces. So I think that alone sort of illustrates again that Catiline is somebody that most certainly
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surrounds himself with corrupt and fights for people.
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Yeah. We're told in all the sources that he keeps company with bad people.
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Yeah. Right. The worst of people, corrupt politicians. So, again, what we're going to talk about,
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the conspiracy, Catiline's conspiracy, the events really take place in 63 and into 62 BC. And we
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count down because we're in BC, of course. But in the previous years, I think 66 and 65 BC,
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the Catiline had tried to become consul and failed, had lost the election. So the things we have to get
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into there to sort of put meat on the bones for anyone who doesn't know, is that Rome at this stage is
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fantastically corrupt. You could only really win these high offices, like a Praetor or an Aedile or
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something or the consulship, through loads of bribery. There's sort of no other way. There's different
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civilisations throughout history where it's normalised, where everyone knows it's corrupt
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and you're not supposed to be bribing people, but everyone's doing it. Everyone knows it's going on.
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You stand no chance if you don't do it. So it's, yeah, it's still illegal, but it's normalised.
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Yeah. I think earlier in Cicero's career, there's a law that's wanting to be passed where they want
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to banish any politician who bribes from the Senate. And I think Cicero says, well, if you do that,
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half of us will just be gone. It's something that is extremely normalised to the point where
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no one really knows how to overcome the problem whatsoever.
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Yeah. Yeah. No, it's completely endemic by this point, especially for the highest ones,
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the Praetor ships and the consulships. If you want to run for it, unless you happen to be
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fantastically rich in your own right, someone like Crassus, unless you're that, which is at all times,
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hardly anyone, right? Unless you're that, you will have to borrow loads of money in order to bribe your
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way into office. So, I mean, that's what Julius Caesar does. That's what all sorts of people do.
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And that's what Catiline had to have done. So everyone's doing it. It just depends whether
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you've got enough enemies that will try and prosecute you for it if you fail, right? So,
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that's one of the foundational things to this story is that Catiline has borrowed sort of insane sums
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of money in order to bribe his way into office, which he then failed to do. So then you're in a
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tough spot at that point. Julius Caesar, earlier in his career, when he was, sorry, after this,
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but still earlier in his career, he ran to be Pontifex Maximus and he had to bribe his way into that
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office. And on the morning of the election, apparently he said to his mother as he left the
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house, if I lose this vote, you might not see me again. I'll be done. It means that I won't be able
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to repay my creditors. I'll be in fantastic amounts of debt and I won't have a chance of paying it back.
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So I'm either going to have to skip town or you might just find me dead in an alley. I need to win
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this. If I don't win the election, I'm screwed. So anyway, just to give you a flavour, that's what
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happens to Catiline. He runs for a couple of times, borrows fantastically to do it, fails and now he
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owes people loads of money and he hasn't even got a high office to show for it. And his enemies,
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as you said, for those earlier runs in 65, 66 BC, they tried to, well, they did put him on trial for
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corruption and bribery, right? But he just about got acquitted or got off. So what are your feelings on
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all of that? Yeah, I mean, exactly, you know, he's sort of, well, he's lost all these elections and
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he's gone completely bankrupt. He's from a falling aristocratic family that hasn't held consul for
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many, many years. And he gets very, very desperate to the point where he's willing to forsake Rome for
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his own personal gain in order to restore that which he had. I think Cicero, as well, in one of his
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speeches makes a really good point. He illustrates that, you know, Catiline is this man of great wealth.
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He holds all these, you know, orgies and awful things within his house. But he also still possesses
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quite a lot of wealth and he's unwilling to sell that off because of the sort of shame it will bring
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him that he's no longer this wealthy sort of figure. Again, he's willing to do anything but to
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become poor. And that's what you see with the Catiline conspiracy. It illustrates very well that
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the Roman Republic at this stage is in complete whoopness, that men are no longer, you know,
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fighting for their principles, but rather fighting for the self-interest above everything.
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Yeah, a lot of people, they always accuse Catiline of that he's ambitious. That's what often comes up.
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It's just the criticism that you're ambitious. These days, that's not really a problem, right? You're
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almost encouraged to be ambitious and to sort of be a self-publicist and things. But in the ancient
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world or the medieval world, quite often, that was one of the worst sort of vices to be seen to be
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ambitious. But yeah, Catiline's always accused of that. Well, he certainly wanted to be console
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and had failed. So he has one last shot at running to be console in the year 63. And if he won, he would
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be console for the year 62. And he loses again. And Cicero happens to be console for 63. And so I suppose
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we could start picking up the story. I've got one quick paragraph here where you mentioned the people
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he hangs around with and the type of person he is. If I read this paragraph from Salast, we're told that
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Catiline was a man of noble birth and of eminent mental and personal endowments, but of a vicious
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and depraved disposition. His delight from his youth had been civil commotions, bloodshed,
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robbery and sedition. I mean, that's pretty bad, isn't it? And in such scenes, he had spent his early
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years. His constitution could endure hunger, want of sleep and cold to a degree surpassing belief.
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His mind was daring, subtle and versatile, capable of pretending or dissembling whatever he wished.
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So he's not stupid, right? He was covetous of other men's property and prodigal of his own.
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He had abundance of eloquence, so he was sharp as well, though but little wisdom.
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His insatiable ambition was always pursuing objects extravagant, romantic and unattainable.
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Crazy, isn't it? The ancient biographers, how they speak and how they write. But yeah,
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that gives you an idea, sort of a bit of an idea of the man. So not stupid, quite a formidable
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political player, but it seems, if you believe the accounts, just not a good or nice person.
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