The Podcast of the Lotus Eaters - PREVIEW： Epochs #178 ｜ Pompey and Caesar： Part IV

00:00:00.000 Hello and welcome to this episode of Epochs, where after a two-week hiatus I shall be continuing my story

00:00:05.980 all about the decline and fall of the Roman Republic.

00:00:09.420 Thank you for staying with me, hopefully you're looking forward to continuing this story as much as I am.

00:00:14.460 Last time I left off talking about Caesar, didn't I?

00:00:17.720 If you remember, I'm doing the narrative intertwined with Pompey and Caesar,

00:00:21.520 but where Pompey's life or career, both actually, starts before Caesar's,

00:00:25.560 did a couple of episodes on him and his earlier career, and an episode on Caesar's earlier life and career.

00:00:32.220 So hopefully in this episode, or halfway through or towards the end of this episode,

00:00:37.020 their lives and careers will start to properly intertwine.

00:00:40.540 If you remember, I left off Pompey, where he had defeated the pirates at that point in his career.

00:00:46.260 And I'd left off Caesar, I was just about to start talking about the Great Goddess Scandal, 0.99

00:00:51.860 the Bonadier Affair, whatever you want to call it.

00:00:56.300 And I should be continuing using Plutarch as the main source,

00:01:00.340 but very soon, during this episode, I would have thought,

00:01:04.100 Appian starts picking up his narrative, really where Pompey and Caesar's careers really start overlapping.

00:01:12.400 So we won't just be using Plutarch very soon, we'll also have Appian.

00:01:17.300 And then going forward, also, I should be using Cassius Dio.

00:01:22.220 And then also probably from the next episode onwards, or at some point,

00:01:25.780 I'll start using third-party sources as well, modern sources, modern historians,

00:01:31.720 what they've got to say about these things.

00:01:33.240 But for now, we're just going to continue using Plutarch.

00:01:36.160 Okay, let's continue then.

00:01:37.920 If you remember, I had said, or Plutarch had told us,

00:01:41.160 that just explicitly Caesar's wife, Popaea, and Clodius, Clodius Pulcher, were lovers.

00:01:47.860 And that Caesar's mother, Aurelia, sort of tried to not let Popaea out of her sight.

00:01:52.680 So it's very difficult for Clodius and Popaea to hook up.

00:01:57.080 But yet, nonetheless, that didn't really stop Pulcher, or Clodius.

00:02:01.340 Let's call him Clodius.

00:02:03.260 Okay, so Plutarch says this, quote,

00:02:04.840 The Romans have a goddess whom they call the Good Goddess,

00:02:08.760 the same one as the Greeks call the Woman's Goddess.

00:02:11.940 The Phrygians claim this goddess as their own,

00:02:14.540 and say that she was the mother of King Midas.

00:02:17.460 The Romans say that she was one of the nymphs called Dryads, 0.71

00:02:20.600 and was married to Phanus.

00:02:22.120 The Greeks say that she is that one of the mothers of Dionysus,

00:02:25.940 whose name must not be spoken.

00:02:27.420 And this is why the women, when they are celebrating her festival, 0.94

00:02:30.620 cover the tents with branches of vine,

00:02:32.200 and, in accordance with the myth,

00:02:34.260 have a sacred snake enthroned at the goddess's side.

00:02:37.200 It is not lawful for a man to be present at the rites,

00:02:39.940 nor even to be in the house where they are being celebrated.

00:02:42.700 The women perform these sacred ceremonies by themselves, 1.00

00:02:45.580 and these ceremonies are said to be very much like those of the Orphics.

00:02:49.100 When the time for the festival comes,

00:02:50.860 the consul operator, at whose house it is being held,

00:02:53.800 goes away.

00:02:54.340 In this instance, it was the Pontifex Maximus, i.e. Caesar himself.

00:02:58.840 As does every male creature in the household.

00:03:00.760 His wife then takes over the house and arranges the decorations.

00:03:04.580 The most important ceremonies take place at night.

00:03:07.080 The women play together among themselves during the night-long celebrations,

00:03:10.600 and there is much music as well.

00:03:13.020 On this occasion, when Pompeia was in charge of the celebrations,

00:03:17.320 Clodius, who was still beardless,

00:03:19.460 and therefore thought that he would escape notice,

00:03:22.200 dressed himself up as a female flute player,

00:03:24.880 and, looking just like a young woman,

00:03:26.940 arrived at the house.

00:03:27.760 He found the door open and was brought inside quite safely

00:03:31.240 by the maid on duty, who was in on the secret.

00:03:34.440 She's an important person in this affair.

00:03:36.420 She was obviously completely facilitating the quote-unquote affair

00:03:41.180 that Clodius and Pompeia may or may not have been having.

00:03:44.800 He goes on.

00:03:45.240 The maid then ran off to tell Pompeia. 0.83

00:03:47.980 Time passed, and Clodius lacked the patience to stay where he had been left.

00:03:52.340 He began to wander about the house.

00:03:55.000 Not a good idea.

00:03:56.120 Which was a very large one, trying to avoid the lights,

00:03:59.280 and was accosted by one of Aurelia's servants,

00:04:01.720 who, as one woman to another, asked him to come and play with her.

00:04:05.280 When Clodius said no, she dragged him forward and asked him who he was

00:04:09.700 and where he came from.

00:04:11.160 Clodius said that he was waiting for Pompeia's girl, Abra,

00:04:14.700 the name of the maid who had introduced him.

00:04:17.000 But his voice gave him away.

00:04:19.080 Aurelia's servants shrieked and ran off to where the lights and the crowd were,

00:04:23.200 crying out that she had caught a man.

00:04:25.120 The women were in a panic. 1.00

00:04:26.840 Aurelia put a stop to the sacred rites of the goddess

00:04:29.040 and covered up the holy things.

00:04:31.440 You know, lest the gaze of a man fall upon them.

00:04:33.700 She then ordered the doors to be shut

00:04:35.780 and went all over the house with lighted torches in search of Clodius.

00:04:40.280 He was found hiding in the room belonging to the maid

00:04:43.080 who had let him into the house.

00:04:45.280 And when it was discovered who he was,

00:04:47.960 the women drove him out of doors. 0.97

00:04:50.440 They then went away immediately while it was still night

00:04:53.300 and told their husbands what had happened.

00:04:55.720 As soon as it was day, then word was going about the city

00:04:58.920 that Clodius had committed sacrilege

00:05:01.100 and owed satisfaction not only to those whom he had outraged

00:05:05.260 by his conduct, but also to the city and to the gods.

00:05:09.640 One of the tribunes, therefore, officially indicted Clodius for sacrilege

00:05:13.760 and the most influential members of the Senate

00:05:16.280 banded themselves together against him.

00:05:19.000 So, unquote.

00:05:20.840 So, Clodius was unpopular.

00:05:23.180 Remember, he's already, even though he's still quite young, i.e. beardless,

00:05:27.040 he was a famous Claudian, he was already known,

00:05:31.000 he was already a political player,

00:05:32.800 and he was already very much disliked for all sorts of reasons.

00:05:37.280 Lots of people would have disliked or been suspicious

00:05:39.700 or jealous of the Claudians anyway.

00:05:42.940 But, remember, Clodius was a popularis.

00:05:45.780 He was one of, if not the leading light in the popularis.

00:05:49.580 It was him and Caesar that were really the leading guys

00:05:52.880 in the whole popularis faction.

00:05:55.260 So, he's kind of hated already from multiple angles.

00:05:59.820 So, once now he's been outed, you know, a proper, true scandal,

00:06:04.880 really having broken laws, almost certainly, probably,

00:06:08.500 although that's still up for some debate,

00:06:10.700 but certainly having left himself open

00:06:13.620 to some very, very serious criticisms, let's say that,

00:06:16.520 his enemies, political enemies in the Senate,

00:06:20.020 sort of smell blood, and, as we're told there,

00:06:23.360 banned against him, so, you know, sort of immediately,

00:06:26.380 this is our chance to sort of ruin him, ruin his name, 0.82

00:06:29.800 maybe even get him exiled, maybe executed,

00:06:34.400 but, you know, let's see what we can do first.

00:06:36.580 Let's certainly ban together against him.

00:06:39.080 There's blood in the water.

00:06:40.340 They, Claudius' political enemies,

00:06:42.360 gave evidence of a number of shocking crimes

00:06:45.160 which he had committed.

00:06:46.960 So, they're, you know, bringing out all the dirty,

00:06:48.860 all the dirty stories against him that they'd been,

00:06:51.820 that he'd so far avoided any sort of prosecution for.

00:06:54.860 They're bringing them all up.

00:06:56.500 Among which was adultery with his sister.

00:06:59.640 Whoa.

00:07:00.620 What?

00:07:02.340 If you remember, I think it was in the,

00:07:04.380 in the Cato episode, I talked about that.

00:07:07.800 There was rumours that Claudius might have been sleeping

00:07:11.280 with one of his sisters.

00:07:13.740 He had two, or was it even three sisters?

00:07:16.380 There's the, the Clodia, Clodia sisters.

00:07:19.960 I think there's three of them,

00:07:21.420 and they themselves are very, very popular and unpopular, right?

00:07:25.560 Among the popularist factions, they're darlings,

00:07:29.080 they're, you know, they're, they're it girls,

00:07:31.640 they're trendsetters,

00:07:33.300 but among the conservative faction of the city,

00:07:37.460 they're deeply unpopular.

00:07:38.800 They're thought of as strumpets or something. 0.99

00:07:42.640 They're the worst. 1.00

00:07:44.380 They're dirty. 0.99

00:07:46.520 You know what it's like. 0.76

00:07:47.880 You know how popular opinion can be very,

00:07:49.860 very divided on people.

00:07:51.580 I think of somebody like maybe Madonna or Lady Gaga.

00:07:54.940 Some people love them and idolise them, 1.00

00:07:56.640 and some people think they're disgusting whores. 1.00

00:07:59.160 Maybe I'll cut that out. 0.99

00:08:05.480 Is that a bit much?

00:08:08.540 Pluton goes on.

00:08:10.840 He may have committed adultery with his sister,

00:08:13.800 who was the wife of Lucullus.

00:08:15.640 Just another quick word,

00:08:17.160 if I can interrupt again,

00:08:18.740 about Lucullus.

00:08:20.340 If you don't remember,

00:08:21.240 I had mentioned that Lucullus was,

00:08:23.120 again, a very important person.

00:08:24.900 He won't get his own epochs or anything,

00:08:26.460 but he's in and around the story loads.

00:08:28.880 He's probably the second,

00:08:30.300 arguably the second most important general

00:08:32.320 in the Republic at this point.

00:08:33.660 Pompey is easily the most important,

00:08:35.760 preeminent imperator, general,

00:08:38.700 but Lucullus is sort of just below him.

00:08:40.580 He'd been out in the East,

00:08:41.480 fighting against Mithridates,

00:08:43.260 fighting against the pirates,

00:08:44.460 doing all sorts of things.

00:08:45.340 He's a tried and tested,

00:08:47.180 sure pair of hands,

00:08:48.860 militarily speaking,

00:08:49.700 and he's older,

00:08:51.240 a bit older than Clodius,

00:08:52.820 a generation older.

00:08:53.900 He'd married into the Claudian family,

00:08:56.180 the most preeminent family.

00:08:57.480 So he's Pluton's brother-in-law

00:08:59.560 and he'd actually come back from the East,

00:09:03.480 not too long before this,

00:09:05.180 and spread the rumour around

00:09:07.000 that his wife,

00:09:08.660 that he was obviously no longer in love with,

00:09:11.580 was sleeping with her own brother,

00:09:13.440 Clodius, this Clodius.

00:09:14.420 So, all sorts of scandals going on

00:09:18.340 and it's all being brought up now.

00:09:20.280 Maybe we can get Clodius.

00:09:22.900 You know, no one can be this brazen

00:09:25.500 and get away with it forever.

00:09:27.820 You know, who does he think he is?

00:09:29.320 Bill Cosby?

00:09:31.260 Jimmy Savile?

00:09:33.720 P. Diddy?

00:09:35.500 Can't get away with it forever, usually.

00:09:38.440 Well, Savile did, didn't he?

00:09:39.480 Anyway, anyway, anyway,

00:09:40.440 that's a side note.

00:09:41.900 Plutarch goes on.

00:09:43.020 The people, however,

00:09:44.680 set themselves against this party

00:09:46.400 of the nobility

00:09:47.160 and their defence of Clodius

00:09:49.200 was very useful to him

00:09:50.700 so far as the jury were concerned,

00:09:53.560 who took alarm

00:09:54.340 and were terrified

00:09:55.440 at the numbers of his supporters.

00:09:57.700 So Plutarch

00:09:58.320 has just moved the story along there.

00:10:00.720 The ancient historians do that a lot.

00:10:02.220 If you're not very careful,

00:10:03.680 you know, days or weeks have passed there

00:10:05.460 and now suddenly he's just,

00:10:07.320 one sentence later,

00:10:08.860 not even a paragraph break,

00:10:10.360 just one sentence later,

00:10:11.280 is talking about a whole new scene.

00:10:14.620 So this is the trial,

00:10:17.040 in inverted commas,

00:10:18.240 of Clodius.

00:10:19.020 It's not even really a trial,

00:10:20.100 it's the Senate having a hearing

00:10:21.980 to decide whether there should be

00:10:23.740 a full trial.

00:10:25.420 But nonetheless,

00:10:26.260 there's a jury of a type

00:10:27.620 and Clodius' supporters,

00:10:30.240 the Popularis faction,

00:10:32.380 the goateed young ones,

00:10:35.680 the loosely belted fashionable set,

00:10:39.160 have sort of packed the assembly,

00:10:41.840 you know,

00:10:42.100 to intimidate everyone there

00:10:44.020 to try and get Clodius off.

00:10:46.260 Remember,

00:10:46.720 Cicero wrote about it,

00:10:48.100 saying that they,

00:10:49.440 the goateed young ones,

00:10:51.640 these Popularis,

00:10:52.860 Little Miss Curio's set,

00:10:55.280 Curio is one of the other leading rights

00:10:56.840 in the Popularis faction.

00:10:58.360 They've sort of taken control

00:10:59.660 of the gangways.

00:11:01.480 So, you know,

00:11:01.860 real, physical,

00:11:03.340 immediate,

00:11:03.920 personal intimidation.

00:11:06.100 Now,

00:11:06.340 the implication is,

00:11:08.100 if Clodius isn't acquitted

00:11:09.380 or let off,

00:11:10.680 then they might go mad,

00:11:12.840 start smashing the place up, 0.76

00:11:14.420 burning things down, 1.00

00:11:15.400 clubbing people to death, 0.99

00:11:16.300 who knows, right? 0.82

00:11:17.660 Just because they're fashionistas, 1.00

00:11:19.960 doesn't mean they're not

00:11:20.760 an extremely violent mob,

00:11:22.840 as well.

00:11:24.060 Plutarch goes on,

00:11:24.640 Caesar divorced Pompeia at once.

00:11:27.480 But when he was called

00:11:28.320 as a witness at the trial,

00:11:30.720 he said that he knew nothing

00:11:32.360 about the charges against Clodius.

00:11:34.340 Because, again, remember,

00:11:35.600 Caesar and Clodius

00:11:36.560 are in the same faction,

00:11:39.160 right?

00:11:39.320 The Popularis faction.

00:11:40.060 So, although Clodius

00:11:41.260 has almost certainly

00:11:42.080 done him dirty

00:11:43.340 on some level here,

00:11:45.100 one,

00:11:45.820 perhaps having an affair

00:11:47.000 with his wife,

00:11:48.120 and two,

00:11:48.800 just making him look bad,

00:11:50.180 three,

00:11:50.540 making the whole faction

00:11:51.580 look bad,

00:11:53.020 still,

00:11:54.160 it's not in Caesar's interest

00:11:55.920 to completely throw him

00:11:57.420 under the bus.

00:11:58.480 That would divide the faction.

00:12:00.340 So Clodius is a powerful person

00:12:02.220 in a few different ways.

00:12:04.560 His family name,

00:12:06.100 he's rich,

00:12:06.740 his sway among the Popularis,

00:12:10.080 his sheer popularity

00:12:11.580 in the city,

00:12:13.180 you know,

00:12:13.460 it's not really an enemy

00:12:14.480 you want.

00:12:15.360 It's not an enemy

00:12:15.960 Caesar particularly

00:12:16.920 would want.

00:12:18.060 So Caesar is very,

00:12:18.980 very reluctant

00:12:19.660 to just throw Clodius

00:12:21.860 under the bus

00:12:22.460 to just give some sort

00:12:23.860 of witness statement

00:12:24.760 completely condemning him.

00:12:27.820 That's not going to be

00:12:28.540 a good look for Caesar.

00:12:29.920 So he sort of plays his cards

00:12:31.740 very close to his chest.

00:12:33.300 Caesar said he knew nothing

00:12:34.220 about the charges

00:12:35.460 against Clodius.

00:12:36.120 This seemed a most

00:12:37.500 surprising thing to say

00:12:38.760 and the prosecuting

00:12:40.160 counsel asked,

00:12:41.840 in that case,

00:12:42.800 why did you divorce

00:12:43.500 your wife?

00:12:44.240 If you know nothing

00:12:44.780 about it,

00:12:45.260 Caesar,

00:12:45.740 why would you divorce

00:12:46.980 your wife?

00:12:47.420 You know,

00:12:47.620 what's the problem?

00:12:48.780 Because,

00:12:49.420 said Caesar,

00:12:50.480 I considered that my wife

00:12:51.920 ought not to be even

00:12:53.160 suspected.

00:12:54.540 There are various

00:12:55.100 translations of that.

00:12:56.560 Caesar's wife must be 0.99

00:12:57.580 above suspicion

00:12:59.000 or beyond reproach.

00:13:00.940 There's all sorts

00:13:01.320 of different translations.

00:13:02.920 This particular

00:13:03.460 Penguin classic

00:13:04.260 is Rex Warner.

00:13:05.200 If you're interested

00:13:06.740 in that sort of thing,

00:13:08.020 Plutarch goes on,

00:13:09.240 some say that in giving

00:13:10.600 this evidence,

00:13:11.740 Caesar really meant

00:13:12.640 what he said.

00:13:13.820 According to others,

00:13:15.000 he was acting in order

00:13:16.120 to please the people

00:13:17.140 who were determined

00:13:18.140 to save Clodius.

00:13:19.740 At any rate,

00:13:20.880 Clodius was acquitted

00:13:21.780 of the charge.

00:13:23.140 Most of the jurymen

00:13:24.020 handed in their votes

00:13:25.100 in illegible writing

00:13:26.760 so that they might

00:13:27.920 avoid the risks

00:13:28.960 both of violence

00:13:29.960 from the people

00:13:30.640 if they condemned him

00:13:32.080 and of contempt

00:13:33.140 from the nobility

00:13:34.020 if they acquitted him.

00:13:35.620 So, end quote.

00:13:36.600 So there you can see

00:13:37.560 the jury

00:13:38.900 are absolutely

00:13:40.500 intimidated.

00:13:41.880 I mean,

00:13:42.060 it's pretty clear to me

00:13:43.060 that they find themselves

00:13:44.640 stuck between

00:13:45.200 a rock and a hard face

00:13:46.260 and aren't comfortable

00:13:47.460 to say the very least.

00:13:49.760 So Clodius gets away

00:13:50.860 with it, basically.

00:13:52.220 Very, very annoying.

00:13:53.900 Keep getting away.

00:13:54.540 Keep going to court.

00:13:55.840 Stand in trial

00:13:56.540 and getting away with it.

00:13:59.260 Okay, so that's

00:13:59.920 the Bonadio scandal.

00:14:01.480 Now we move on

00:14:02.200 to Caesar's

00:14:03.540 his career proper,

00:14:05.540 if you like,

00:14:06.320 when he becomes

00:14:07.600 a creator

00:14:08.580 and an imperator

00:14:10.340 and a governor

00:14:11.540 and consul

00:14:12.780 and so on.

00:14:13.320 So we're really getting

00:14:13.980 into the meat

00:14:15.220 of things now.

00:14:16.620 Plutarch goes on,

00:14:18.100 quote,

00:14:18.460 Directly after

00:14:19.360 his preatorship,

00:14:20.900 Caesar received

00:14:21.680 Spain as his province.

00:14:23.660 However,

00:14:24.260 he found it very difficult

00:14:25.200 to arrange matters

00:14:26.260 with his creditors

00:14:27.240 who tried to prevent

00:14:28.520 him leaving the city

00:14:29.540 and were extremely

00:14:30.740 importunate.

00:14:32.360 You know,

00:14:32.560 they say,

00:14:32.920 you owe us loads

00:14:33.860 of money,

00:14:35.020 Gaius Julius Caesar.

00:14:36.420 We're not just going

00:14:37.260 to let you go to Spain

00:14:38.280 for a few years.

00:14:40.040 We need money now.

00:14:42.700 Again,

00:14:42.940 the implication is

00:14:43.700 otherwise something

00:14:44.720 terrible is going

00:14:45.460 to happen to you.

00:14:46.700 Nice kneecaps

00:14:47.600 you've got there,

00:14:48.220 Caesar.

00:14:48.540 It'll be a shame

00:14:49.160 if anything happened

00:14:49.940 to them.

00:14:51.100 Sort of a thing.

00:14:53.600 Plutarch says,

00:14:54.600 he, Caesar,

00:14:55.460 therefore,

00:14:56.260 turned for help

00:14:56.980 to Crassus,

00:14:57.900 who was the richest

00:14:58.660 man in Rome

00:14:59.560 and who needed

00:15:00.820 Caesar's vigour

00:15:02.060 and fire

00:15:02.960 for carrying out

00:15:03.860 his own political

00:15:04.620 campaign against Pompey.

00:15:06.500 Crassus met the demands

00:15:07.500 of those creditors

00:15:08.820 who were most difficult

00:15:10.100 to deal with

00:15:10.780 and who would not

00:15:11.440 be put off any longer

00:15:12.360 and gave his personal

00:15:13.720 guarantee

00:15:14.180 for 830 talents

00:15:16.200 so Caesar was able

00:15:17.560 to set out

00:15:18.160 for his province.

00:15:19.500 End quote.

00:15:20.160 830 talents

00:15:21.060 is loads of money,

00:15:23.180 tons of money.

00:15:23.940 It'd be millions

00:15:24.500 of pounds

00:15:25.980 or dollars

00:15:26.540 in modern money.

00:15:29.060 It was really

00:15:30.180 a huge amount.

00:15:31.520 But there,

00:15:32.240 now you can see

00:15:33.040 that already

00:15:34.040 there's this

00:15:34.600 three-way

00:15:35.680 power balancing

00:15:37.080 thing

00:15:37.560 between Pompey

00:15:38.760 and Crassus

00:15:39.280 and Caesar.

00:15:40.740 It sort of

00:15:41.180 already started

00:15:41.960 or it really

00:15:42.600 starts there

00:15:43.380 really.

00:15:44.080 It would have

00:15:45.320 started at a lower

00:15:46.280 level already

00:15:46.920 but now

00:15:47.460 it's sort of

00:15:48.380 really a thing.

00:15:49.340 Crassus and Pompey,

00:15:50.680 if you remember

00:15:51.080 from the Crassus

00:15:51.680 episodes,

00:15:52.360 are already,

00:15:54.000 maybe they don't

00:15:54.820 necessarily hate

00:15:55.480 each other's guts

00:15:56.400 yet,

00:15:57.260 but they're

00:15:57.880 absolutely rivals.

00:15:59.240 Caesar's still

00:15:59.780 the new kid

00:16:00.380 on the block.

00:16:02.040 You know,

00:16:02.220 he's an important

00:16:02.780 person,

00:16:03.920 quickly becoming

00:16:04.680 much,

00:16:05.140 much more important,

00:16:05.840 but still

00:16:06.600 he's the

00:16:07.660 least powerful

00:16:08.920 of the three.

00:16:10.040 At this point,

00:16:10.700 at this exact point

00:16:11.520 in Roman political

00:16:12.860 history,

00:16:13.960 Crassus is

00:16:14.840 the older

00:16:15.900 man,

00:16:17.020 he's the

00:16:17.460 richest man,

00:16:18.840 his eloquence

00:16:20.180 as an orator

00:16:21.480 in the Senate

00:16:22.520 is unsurpassed

00:16:24.240 other than

00:16:24.620 perhaps by

00:16:25.220 Cicero

00:16:26.280 and Cato,

00:16:27.900 but he's a

00:16:28.400 much, much better

00:16:29.020 orator

00:16:29.500 and senator

00:16:30.360 and politician

00:16:31.020 than Pompey,

00:16:32.960 but Pompey

00:16:33.640 is the hero.

00:16:34.880 he is

00:16:36.140 the greatest

00:16:37.120 military man

00:16:38.120 by far.

00:16:40.180 He's literally

00:16:40.640 a hero

00:16:41.200 among men,

00:16:42.380 a living legend,

00:16:44.000 right?

00:16:44.300 So Cicero

00:16:45.340 and Cato

00:16:45.880 and Caesar

00:16:46.480 are important,

00:16:47.640 but the two

00:16:48.340 biggest fish

00:16:48.980 are easily

00:16:50.300 Crassus and Pompey

00:16:51.460 and they've shared

00:16:52.220 console ships

00:16:52.940 and not been able

00:16:53.820 to get anything

00:16:54.260 done,

00:16:55.360 so we're not

00:16:55.960 too far from now,

00:16:56.900 a few years

00:16:57.240 down the line,

00:16:58.400 their enmity

00:16:59.000 towards each other

00:16:59.940 becomes massive,

00:17:01.840 really sort of

00:17:02.480 starts ripping

00:17:03.180 the Republic apart.

00:17:04.140 at this point

00:17:05.240 still,

00:17:06.040 they're just

00:17:06.360 sort of

00:17:07.020 playing

00:17:07.480 underhand games

00:17:08.620 against each other

00:17:09.540 and just

00:17:10.860 playing political

00:17:12.060 games still,

00:17:13.840 trying to undermine

00:17:14.560 each other,

00:17:15.680 being catty

00:17:16.560 against each other,

00:17:18.100 undermining each

00:17:18.880 other's position,

00:17:20.120 doing all that

00:17:20.660 sort of thing

00:17:21.140 before it turns

00:17:22.120 into full-blown

00:17:23.000 civil strife

00:17:24.400 or mob warfare

00:17:25.820 or anything like that,

00:17:27.600 or before any

00:17:28.600 sort of triumvirate

00:17:29.680 is needed

00:17:30.540 to try and prevent

00:17:32.020 that sort of thing.

00:17:34.120 They're still just

00:17:35.100 kind of at each

00:17:35.920 other's throats.

00:17:36.420 Now,

00:17:36.600 Crassus obviously

00:17:37.380 makes the calculation

00:17:39.040 or is making

00:17:40.480 the ongoing calculation

00:17:42.060 that if he can get

00:17:43.840 as much support

00:17:44.700 from as many places

00:17:46.500 as possible

00:17:47.080 into his camp,

00:17:48.660 so to speak,

00:17:49.760 then he's obviously

00:17:51.280 denying Pompey that.

00:17:53.660 So he sees,

00:17:54.560 Crassus sees Caesar

00:17:55.500 as an up-and-coming,

00:17:56.800 correctly,

00:17:57.320 as an up-and-coming

00:17:58.140 power.

00:18:00.280 Caesar probably

00:18:01.120 will be a big beast

00:18:02.880 at some point,

00:18:03.880 or kind of already is,

00:18:05.500 right?

00:18:06.460 He's going to be

00:18:08.000 one of the most

00:18:09.420 important men

00:18:10.200 in Rome.

00:18:11.500 I mean,

00:18:11.700 he's already in the

00:18:12.300 top dozen or so,

00:18:13.500 but he's going to be

00:18:14.000 in the top half dozen.

00:18:15.700 He's going to be

00:18:16.020 in the top three

00:18:16.760 or four or five.

00:18:17.780 So Crassus is already

00:18:19.320 thinking,

00:18:20.280 you know,

00:18:20.540 I'll make him my boy.

00:18:22.920 I'll make him in debt,

00:18:24.540 literally,

00:18:25.400 money terms to me,

00:18:26.600 and also in my debt

00:18:28.440 politically,

00:18:29.740 and he'll be in my camp

00:18:31.080 and not Pompey's.

00:18:33.440 You know,

00:18:33.640 Crassus is an astute

00:18:34.620 politician,

00:18:35.440 and Pompey isn't.

00:18:36.280 Pompey,

00:18:37.120 I mean,

00:18:38.220 the extent to which

00:18:39.560 Pompey is naive,

00:18:40.880 people always argue about.

00:18:42.420 I happen to think

00:18:43.300 he is quite naive,

00:18:45.020 and we'll get into

00:18:45.920 that further

00:18:46.480 as the story goes on,

00:18:48.180 the extent to which

00:18:49.600 Pompey is naive,

00:18:50.600 politically.

00:18:52.300 So,

00:18:52.580 the thing is,

00:18:53.680 sometimes Pompey

00:18:54.880 isn't naive.

00:18:55.520 Sometimes he comes across

00:18:56.560 as he does know

00:18:57.560 what's going on,

00:18:58.280 and he is obviously

00:18:59.040 playing some sort of

00:19:00.420 3D chess,

00:19:01.260 and he isn't a complete 0.63

00:19:02.000 chump. 0.95

00:19:03.240 But then other times, 0.87

00:19:05.040 later,

00:19:05.600 further down the road,

00:19:06.520 after he's done something

00:19:07.440 quite cynical

00:19:08.680 and creative

00:19:10.800 and smart,

00:19:12.680 you know,

00:19:12.840 showing himself

00:19:13.500 that he's capable

00:19:14.060 of political machinations

00:19:15.780 and realpolitik

00:19:17.460 and all that sort of thing,

00:19:18.800 after that,

00:19:19.500 he then does something

00:19:20.340 or then shows

00:19:21.120 that he must have been

00:19:22.180 very, very naive.

00:19:23.400 He wasn't seeing

00:19:24.120 all the angles.

00:19:25.580 So,

00:19:25.940 you know,

00:19:26.820 you can argue,

00:19:27.520 definitely argue

00:19:28.580 all about the extent

00:19:30.140 to which Pompey is naive,

00:19:31.340 but on the whole,

00:19:32.980 by and large,

00:19:34.400 I am in the camp

00:19:35.300 that Pompey

00:19:36.600 usually

00:19:37.340 is quite naive,

00:19:39.760 but we'll get to that.

00:19:41.280 I'll let Plutarch

00:19:42.060 continue the story here

00:19:43.120 about Caesar

00:19:43.780 going to Spain.

00:19:44.840 He says,

00:19:46.220 quote,

00:19:46.460 there is a story

00:19:48.080 that while he was

00:19:48.860 crossing the Alps,

00:19:49.620 this is Caesar,

00:19:50.280 crossing the Alps

00:19:50.880 into Transalpine Gaul

00:19:52.500 on his way to Spain,

00:19:54.280 he came to a small

00:19:55.560 native village

00:19:56.380 with hardly any inhabitants

00:19:58.000 and altogether

00:19:59.500 a miserable looking place.

00:20:01.520 His friends were laughing

00:20:02.600 and joking about it,

00:20:03.640 saying,

00:20:04.600 no doubt here too

00:20:05.580 one would find people

00:20:06.980 pushing themselves forward

00:20:08.320 to gain office

00:20:09.220 and here too

00:20:10.320 there are struggles

00:20:11.280 to get the first place

00:20:12.480 and jealous rivalries 0.99

00:20:13.940 among the great men.

00:20:14.880 Caesar then said to them

00:20:16.680 in all seriousness,

00:20:18.140 as far as I am concerned,

00:20:19.640 I would rather be

00:20:20.340 the first man here

00:20:21.260 than second in Rome,

00:20:22.500 end quote.

00:20:24.340 It's an interesting

00:20:25.160 little anecdote.

00:20:26.220 There is that classic thing,

00:20:27.340 isn't there?

00:20:27.680 Would you rather be

00:20:28.660 a big fish in a small pond

00:20:30.460 or a small fish

00:20:31.600 in a big pond?

00:20:33.620 Some people,

00:20:34.440 some men

00:20:34.940 would answer,

00:20:36.180 I'd rather be

00:20:36.720 a big fish

00:20:37.500 in a small pond

00:20:38.060 because I can't stand

00:20:39.380 having anyone above me.

00:20:41.800 I would rather be

00:20:42.920 of less importance overall

00:20:44.160 if it meant

00:20:45.060 I get to be

00:20:45.980 top dog.

00:20:47.840 It speaks of an ego,

00:20:49.420 doesn't it?

00:20:50.920 It speaks of

00:20:51.980 an ambition

00:20:53.000 unbridled.

00:20:54.940 Would you rather be

00:20:55.760 Riker,

00:20:56.320 second in command

00:20:56.960 on the Enterprise

00:20:57.640 or captain

00:20:59.500 of a much,

00:21:00.140 much lesser

00:21:01.580 starship?

00:21:02.940 I've always thought

00:21:04.140 that I'd rather be

00:21:05.380 a smaller fish,

00:21:06.720 slightly smaller fish

00:21:07.560 in a bigger pond.

00:21:08.800 I want to play

00:21:09.760 at the biggest

00:21:10.380 table.

00:21:11.540 I want to be

00:21:12.340 involved in

00:21:12.900 the biggest

00:21:13.940 game,

00:21:14.760 even if it means

00:21:15.500 I don't necessarily

00:21:16.100 get to be

00:21:16.840 at the tippy top

00:21:18.200 of the mountain,

00:21:19.260 but that's just me.

00:21:20.760 It really is a

00:21:21.420 personal preference.

00:21:22.340 But it does usually

00:21:23.000 speak when people

00:21:23.840 insist on being

00:21:24.680 the biggest fish

00:21:25.600 in a small pond.

00:21:26.880 It's usually because

00:21:27.720 they sort of

00:21:29.620 can't stand

00:21:30.880 having,

00:21:32.380 not even anyone

00:21:33.340 above them,

00:21:34.040 but even any

00:21:34.660 rivals

00:21:35.300 equal with them.

00:21:36.840 Yeah,

00:21:37.120 I mean,

00:21:37.360 I tend to think

00:21:38.160 that's because

00:21:38.560 you've got a chip

00:21:39.640 on your shoulder

00:21:40.140 about something

00:21:40.720 or other.

00:21:41.960 Well,

00:21:42.400 I don't know.

00:21:43.240 I don't want to do

00:21:43.700 too much armchair

00:21:44.660 psychology stuff there.

00:21:45.740 But that's what

00:21:46.300 Plutarch tells us

00:21:47.700 Caesar said.

00:21:48.600 It does sort of

00:21:49.160 ring true,

00:21:49.680 almost,

00:21:50.560 it's almost too

00:21:51.180 perfect of an

00:21:51.900 anecdote,

00:21:52.280 isn't it?

00:21:53.700 That's exactly

00:21:54.380 the sort of thing

00:21:54.820 where modern

00:21:55.240 scholars say,

00:21:56.800 was that made up

00:21:57.940 after?

00:21:58.480 Is Plutarch

00:21:59.000 or somebody

00:21:59.560 adding that in

00:22:00.440 after?

00:22:01.620 Because it's a bit

00:22:02.220 perfect.

00:22:03.500 Because even when

00:22:04.140 Caesar was right

00:22:05.200 at the top

00:22:06.420 of the Roman

00:22:07.680 political game

00:22:08.900 of power,

00:22:09.640 you know,

00:22:10.400 he had to share

00:22:11.060 power with a couple

00:22:11.920 of others,

00:22:12.440 Crassus and Pompey,

00:22:13.600 and he couldn't

00:22:14.800 really stand it

00:22:15.820 in the end.

00:22:16.740 Well,

00:22:16.900 neither could Pompey

00:22:17.540 though.

00:22:18.120 It's not uncommon.

00:22:19.300 It's not uncommon,

00:22:20.100 is it?

00:22:21.120 A power sharing

00:22:22.500 thing,

00:22:23.800 a power sharing

00:22:24.460 settlement of

00:22:25.200 whatever description

00:22:26.040 doesn't always

00:22:26.960 hold together,

00:22:27.800 usually doesn't

00:22:28.480 hold together,

00:22:29.400 because someone,

00:22:30.760 someone's ego

00:22:31.560 can't deal with it.

00:22:33.100 To watch the full

00:22:34.140 video,

00:22:34.720 please become a

00:22:35.280 premium member

00:22:35.860 at

00:22:36.180 lotusedus.com.

00:22:39.640 塔

00:22:41.440 汗

00:22:41.640 and

00:22:41.920 塔

00:22:44.560 and

00:22:44.940 salt

00:22:45.600 happen

00:22:58.260 to the Max.

The Podcast of the Lotus Eaters - September 29, 2024

PREVIEW： Epochs #178 ｜ Pompey and Caesar： Part IV

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