The Podcast of the Lotus Eaters - December 20, 2024


PREVIEW： Epochs #190 ｜ Pompey & Caesar： Part XV

Hosted by
Callum Edmunds Carl Benjamin Connor Tomlinson Harry Robinson John Wheatley Joshua Ferme Edward McLaren Elizabeth Heverin
Mentioned
Pompey Pompey Crassus Gabinius Pulcher Pontifex Maximus Mithridates Demosthenes Catiline Epochs Capio Julia Gaul Milo
The Podcast of the Lotus Eaters #1067 Why Identity Politics Destroys Communities

Episode Stats


Length

22 minutes

Words per minute

186.68

Word count

4,129

Sentence count

186

Harmful content

Misogyny

2

sentences flagged

Toxicity

27

sentences flagged

Hate speech

4

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

In this episode of Epochs, I continue my mini-series on the life and career of Julius Caesar and Pompey, and look at the events leading up to the fall of the Roman Republic in the 60s BC.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Hosts, guests, and mentioned names generated with spaCy (en_core_web_sm), reconciled against Wikidata.
00:00:00.240 Hello and welcome to this episode of Epochs, where once again I shall be continuing my story of the decline and fall of the Roman Republic.
00:00:07.640 Last time, if you remember, I finished up, more or less, my story of Caesar's campaigns in Gaul.
00:00:14.200 And as promised, I said I'll go back a fair few years and tell you what happened in Rome during all that time.
00:00:19.580 And the story of Pompey, this mini-series, although it's not that small of a series, is it?
00:00:24.400 This mini-series is supposed to be about both Caesar and Pompey because their lives and careers are so heavily entwined.
00:00:30.580 So, let's go back to Rome in the 60s BC and talk about what happened with Pompey.
00:00:37.540 Okay, today I'll be reading from Appian and Plutarch.
00:00:41.620 And also, if you've watched them, I have already done episodes on Crassus and Cato.
00:00:47.880 So, shall be covering some of the same ground again, but from a slightly different angle, perhaps.
00:00:52.620 So, let's pick up with Appian, more or less, when Caesar leaves Rome for his French campaigns.
00:01:00.580 So, Appian tells us this, quote,
00:01:02.560 Caesar realised that his absence from Rome would be prolonged and that the resentment felt towards him would be all the greater because of the enormous favours he granted.
00:01:11.160 See, now, Caesar knows that the election he had just before he left Rome to become consul,
00:01:17.760 and when he, Pompey and Crassus, formed the first triumvirate in secret.
00:01:22.120 Though it wasn't all that secret, Cato cottoned onto it pretty quickly.
00:01:25.280 Either way, he knows that that, plus the election he had before that to become Pontifex Maximus,
00:01:30.000 he knows that once he leaves office and he no longer has immunity from prosecution,
00:01:35.160 he knows that he's going to be prosecuted for all sorts of things.
00:01:38.520 So, he knows he's sort of on borrowed time, that is, unless he can keep a string of offices going.
00:01:43.820 But he knows that Cato and all of Cato's people, his faction, they will try and get him.
00:01:49.160 So, he's got a few years to try and untangle all of that and save himself from being ruined,
00:01:54.860 if not actually imprisoned or exiled or even executed.
00:01:58.400 Appian continues,
00:01:59.120 So, he, Caesar, married his daughter to Pompey, although she was engaged to Capio,
00:02:04.800 and someone else called Capio.
00:02:06.140 Caesar sort of forced her to break that engagement and marry Pompey,
00:02:09.240 who was much, much older than Caesar's daughter.
00:02:11.460 He's a little bit older than Caesar.
00:02:12.820 So, he's much, much older than Caesar's daughter, Julia.
00:02:15.380 And yet, I've said before, I will be repeating myself a bit in this one,
00:02:18.420 they actually fell in love.
00:02:19.920 Pompey certainly, absolutely, genuinely fell in love with Julia,
00:02:22.520 to the point where the normal people of Rome, the scuttlebutt around the city of Rome,
00:02:26.240 was that he was too in love with her, that it was embarrassing,
00:02:28.700 that a good Roman man doesn't really fall head over heels in love with his wife.
00:02:33.400 There's something not quite right about that. 0.81
00:02:35.340 All the great men are philanderers.
00:02:37.880 But Pompey did absolutely fall in love with her,
00:02:39.920 and it seems, even though he was much older,
00:02:41.560 she genuinely liked him,
00:02:42.700 and there's no accounts or no evidence that she was sort of repulsed by him
00:02:45.940 or was terribly upset that she was forced to marry him or anything.
00:02:49.380 So, but that is important, that marriage alliance.
00:02:51.520 If you remember before this, when Pompey was casting around for allies,
00:02:56.240 he tried to marry into Cato's family, tried to marry someone in his family to Cato,
00:03:01.440 but Cato wouldn't have that.
00:03:02.840 So, just again, to put it in a bit of context so everyone's clear,
00:03:05.620 we've already had the Catiline conspiracy,
00:03:08.320 we've already had Pompey defeating Mithridates and the pirates,
00:03:11.800 we've already had, of course, the war with Spartacus,
00:03:14.320 and so there's all these alliances forming.
00:03:16.720 So Cato and Cicero are sort of for the Senate,
00:03:20.300 Optimate, Cicero's a bit of a special case.
00:03:22.440 Perhaps after this miniseries is finished,
00:03:24.720 I'll do an episode or two just talking about Cicero.
00:03:27.400 A lot of the time, Cicero is a bit of a wild card,
00:03:30.140 although Cato is something of a wild card.
00:03:32.060 He's not in the sense that you know that he's always going to stand on his principles
00:03:35.420 and you know what those principles are.
00:03:37.140 So it might be maddening that he does that,
00:03:39.080 but you sort of know where you are.
00:03:40.640 You can rely on him to stand on his principles.
00:03:43.060 Whereas Cicero bends with the winds a bit more.
00:03:45.420 So Cicero's alliances come and go, you know.
00:03:48.260 So for example, Cicero is a big fan, pretty much a big fan of Pompey.
00:03:52.520 And at this stage anyway, he's sort of kind of suspicious of Caesar,
00:03:55.660 but doesn't hate his guts, but is absolutely not a fan,
00:03:58.960 kind of hates Crassus and has a funny relationship with Cato.
00:04:03.300 Nominally, they're absolutely on the same page,
00:04:05.180 but sometimes Cato does things that aren't in Cicero's interest
00:04:07.880 or baffles Cicero in all sorts of ways.
00:04:10.640 So although they're on the same side,
00:04:13.080 they're not always exactly on the same page.
00:04:14.960 So that's Cicero.
00:04:16.100 Crassus and Pompey hate each other.
00:04:17.820 They kind of absolutely hate each other
00:04:19.000 because still Caesar is kind of, well, definitely is still the junior
00:04:23.220 out of the three triumvirs, Crassus, Pompey and Caesar.
00:04:26.100 Caesar is still the junior partner very much.
00:04:28.500 Crassus is the richest man in Rome and is old,
00:04:31.420 sort of in his late 50s, knocking 60.
00:04:33.260 And Pompey is absolutely most decorated general of the age, easily.
00:04:37.800 So Pompey and Crassus are the two big hitters out of the three.
00:04:40.880 And they hate each other, even though they work together
00:04:42.600 and they've been consuls together before, haven't they?
00:04:44.480 If you remember, they couldn't actually get anything done really
00:04:46.720 during that year when they shared the consulship
00:04:48.720 because they sort of still see Caesar as the junior partner
00:04:52.400 and that each of them are the other's main rival
00:04:55.240 to be the preeminent man of Rome.
00:04:58.120 So although they haven't resulted to sort of murdering each other
00:05:01.320 or anything like that, they are certainly politically complete enemies.
00:05:05.260 So that's something to have to bear in mind the whole time.
00:05:07.640 And Caesar's sort of trying to play them off against each other
00:05:10.060 wherever he can or begins to anyway.
00:05:12.180 Caesar is friends with Crassus.
00:05:14.480 Crassus lent him loads of money, for example.
00:05:16.620 And he's sort of friends with Pompey.
00:05:18.460 Well, they are friends.
00:05:19.560 Well, certainly now that Pompey has married his daughter,
00:05:22.820 that is quite a good alliance, quite a firm alliance.
00:05:25.740 But out of all of these three, the real reality is
00:05:28.720 that you can't really escape,
00:05:29.600 is that each man wants to be the preeminent man of Rome.
00:05:32.580 So they're friends and enemies to varying extents.
00:05:35.320 Again, it's not a complete cutthroat situation
00:05:37.460 where it's just a matter of time
00:05:39.420 till one of them gets the other murdered.
00:05:41.620 None of them are best, best friends.
00:05:43.860 So it's a delicate balancing act.
00:05:46.760 But certainly the marriage alliance between Pompey and Caesar
00:05:49.500 sort of helps balance the balancing act to some degree.
00:05:53.100 Okay, Appian continues.
00:05:54.400 After Pompey married Julia,
00:05:56.700 he tells us that Pompey did that.
00:05:59.020 Appian goes on to tell us that, quote,
00:06:01.680 he, Caesar,
00:06:03.060 also placed the staunchest of his supporters
00:06:05.260 in the magistracies of the coming year.
00:06:07.740 He announced the election of Ulius Gabinius,
00:06:10.440 one of his friends, as consul,
00:06:12.520 and himself married Colpurnia,
00:06:14.560 the daughter of Gabinius' fellow consul-elect,
00:06:17.620 Lucius Piso.
00:06:18.620 This caused Cato to exclaim
00:06:20.480 that political primacy was now procured by marriage-broking.
00:06:24.200 Cato always had a dim view of that,
00:06:26.060 that women should be involved in the balance of power in any real way. 1.00
00:06:30.280 Cato was, of course, super old school.
00:06:32.500 The sort of mid, he had sort of values and ideas,
00:06:35.600 sort of mid-republic era.
00:06:37.400 But so Caesar's trying to set up, get all his ducks in a row,
00:06:40.160 so that there'll be people in Rome while he's away
00:06:42.640 that can sort of bat for him,
00:06:44.380 try and make sure that his position
00:06:45.680 isn't just completely destroyed or undermined.
00:06:47.920 You know, through political machinations,
00:06:50.400 he's somehow stripped of his command
00:06:52.460 and brought back to face charges or anything like that.
00:06:54.900 So he's playing a game from afar,
00:06:57.220 and he absolutely needs Pompey and Crassus,
00:06:59.540 as well as other people, like Gabinius and Piso,
00:07:02.120 to be defending his position at all times,
00:07:04.880 for years on end.
00:07:05.840 It's a difficult, it is a really difficult political game
00:07:08.180 he's got to play.
00:07:09.060 He's got no choice.
00:07:10.040 His enemies are implacable.
00:07:11.260 Cato is implacable.
00:07:13.060 We'll get him if he can.
00:07:14.960 Appian continues.
00:07:15.680 As tribunes, he, again Caesar, 0.94
00:07:18.720 chose Vatinius and Clodius Pulcher.
00:07:22.380 So Clodius, again, he's part of that fashionable set
00:07:27.280 among the popularis.
00:07:28.960 Caesar is, of course, a staunch popularis,
00:07:31.060 always was, always will remain so.
00:07:33.220 Clodius Pulcher is the other main leading light
00:07:35.720 in that faction.
00:07:36.960 So Caesar making sure, putting strings,
00:07:40.580 so that Clodius can become a tribune of the people. 0.52
00:07:43.340 If you remember, I told you that Clodius
00:07:45.700 is part of the Claudian family,
00:07:47.780 one of the most blue-blooded families there is in Rome,
00:07:50.560 and that he had to renounce his patricianship.
00:07:53.520 He had to sort of formally, legally renounce
00:07:55.820 the fact that he was an aristocrat
00:07:57.640 in order to become a tribune,
00:07:59.180 because patricians can't become tribunes. 0.99
00:08:00.840 Tribunes are supposed to be the champion of the people.
00:08:04.220 So Caesar sort of allows that to happen,
00:08:06.260 in fact oversees it,
00:08:07.340 so that Pulcher can then be a tribune.
00:08:08.800 And it's the republic still,
00:08:11.100 so tribunes are still very, very powerful.
00:08:12.900 Once we get into the empire,
00:08:14.260 and certainly the later imperial period,
00:08:17.120 tribunes are not powerful,
00:08:18.680 or nowhere near as powerful, anyway.
00:08:20.400 Whereas here, in the 50s, 60s and 50s BC,
00:08:24.360 tribunes can still be extremely powerful.
00:08:27.040 They can still bring government to a screeching halt,
00:08:29.880 and be a fly in the ointment of much more powerful people,
00:08:35.140 of the consuls themselves.
00:08:36.620 They can veto many laws and all sorts of things.
00:08:40.180 And Pulcher, of course, is going to be both going to bat for Caesar,
00:08:43.520 but more, really, going to bat for the popularis cause,
00:08:47.860 and eventually for himself,
00:08:49.440 because he is extremely ambitious.
00:08:51.020 As a Claudian, he will expect to be right at the heart of things,
00:08:55.000 come what may. 0.99
00:08:55.680 And he's a bit of a crazy man. 0.98
00:08:56.940 If you remember when I talked about him, 0.78
00:08:58.340 I must have talked about him during the Crassus episodes,
00:09:00.840 and the Cato episodes.
00:09:02.220 You know, he was the one that was caught,
00:09:03.840 disguised as a woman,
00:09:05.000 perhaps trying to bed Caesar's old wife. 1.00
00:09:07.560 So he's a crazy, he's a bit of a crazy man, wild man. 0.99
00:09:10.500 And first up on his list of people to do away with, 0.98
00:09:13.800 people that might undermine the popularis cause and Caesar,
00:09:17.080 and because of just a personal vendetta, is Cicero.
00:09:20.500 So on that, Appian tells us,
00:09:21.900 quote,
00:09:22.160 The latter, Clodius,
00:09:23.740 had once been suspected of having sexual designs on Caesar's own wife
00:09:27.460 when he was caught at a religious ceremony for women.
00:09:30.680 Caesar himself, in spite of divorcing his wife,
00:09:33.120 because Caesar's wife must be above suspicion,
00:09:35.460 had taken no legal action against Clodius
00:09:37.560 because of his great popularity with the people.
00:09:40.360 Of course, the people love,
00:09:41.980 absolutely love Clodius because he's their champion.
00:09:44.360 But others prosecuted Clodius for sacrilege
00:09:46.880 at the sacred ceremony,
00:09:48.360 and Cicero lent his support to the accusers.
00:09:51.160 If you remember,
00:09:52.040 the Senate had a tribunal to decide
00:09:53.920 whether they were going to put Clodius formally on trial for that.
00:09:58.020 And Cicero spoke against him.
00:10:00.100 And then in the end,
00:10:00.700 he was acquitted anyway because of bribery.
00:10:03.180 But Clodius did not forget that.
00:10:04.980 He didn't forget that Cicero tried to sink him,
00:10:07.280 tried to get him exiled.
00:10:08.900 Clodius holds a grudge.
00:10:10.780 And yeah, there's no way he's going to forget
00:10:13.880 what Cicero tried to do to him.
00:10:15.660 Appian again.
00:10:16.120 Though called as a witness,
00:10:17.900 Caesar did not denounce him
00:10:19.120 and now made him tribune
00:10:20.800 as a way of plotting against Cicero,
00:10:23.120 who was already blackening the compact
00:10:25.040 of the three men to secure sole power.
00:10:28.020 In this way,
00:10:29.040 their needs outweighed their grievances
00:10:30.700 and they did a favour to one enemy
00:10:32.860 in order to avenge themselves on another.
00:10:35.320 And it seems that it was Clodius
00:10:36.780 who first repaid Caesar
00:10:38.200 by helping him to the Gallic command.
00:10:41.220 Such were Caesar's actions as consul,
00:10:43.240 that is in the year before he goes to Gaul.
00:10:44.740 And as soon as he laid his office down,
00:10:47.160 he immediately left Rome to take up the next,
00:10:49.740 i.e. the commanding gall.
00:10:52.400 Clodius impeached Cicero
00:10:53.960 for breach of the constitution
00:10:55.720 because he had put Lentulus and Cetagus
00:10:58.620 and their followers to death without trial.
00:11:01.620 So that's a reference to the Catiline conspiracy.
00:11:05.320 I've got a whole episode in conversation
00:11:07.400 all about the Catiline conspiracy.
00:11:09.460 And the way that was dealt with,
00:11:10.600 it seems that there was some sort of true conspiracy
00:11:12.740 by the Senator Catiline
00:11:14.780 to sort of maybe do a military coup d'etat,
00:11:17.840 maybe do something along the lines of Sulla,
00:11:20.160 entering Rome with a body of men
00:11:21.660 and just proclaiming yourself
00:11:22.780 just de facto ruler through force.
00:11:25.480 It seems like something like that was afoot.
00:11:28.080 And when it was thwarted,
00:11:29.620 Cicero happened to be consul at the time.
00:11:32.020 This is back in the 60s BC.
00:11:33.980 In order to deal with it,
00:11:35.580 he just arbitrarily had them executed.
00:11:39.380 And that was against the law.
00:11:41.400 You know, there was still due process,
00:11:43.360 certainly for full Roman citizens,
00:11:45.240 certainly for senators and things.
00:11:46.660 And Cicero did ride roughshort over that.
00:11:48.760 Now, at the time,
00:11:50.040 he was hailed a hero,
00:11:51.440 a saviour of Rome for doing that,
00:11:52.700 that he acted quickly.
00:11:53.600 He needed to act quickly
00:11:55.180 to save Rome from some sort of immediate peril.
00:11:57.960 And the fact that he did,
00:11:59.300 he was lauded for it at the time.
00:12:00.960 But now, in hindsight,
00:12:02.140 now Clodius is a tribune
00:12:03.380 and sort of bring lawsuits against people.
00:12:05.940 He's dragging that up.
00:12:07.960 But it was illegal, though.
00:12:09.200 So by letter of the law,
00:12:11.240 Clodius can do this.
00:12:12.440 And so he does.
00:12:13.800 And Appian tells us how Cicero reacted
00:12:15.760 to having a very serious lawsuit
00:12:18.360 brought against him.
00:12:19.540 Appian says, quote,
00:12:20.420 Although Cicero had displayed
00:12:22.180 a most noble spirit of resolution
00:12:23.980 in the affair itself,
00:12:25.940 the Catalan conspiracy,
00:12:27.060 when it came to being prosecuted,
00:12:28.740 he collapsed. 0.88
00:12:29.800 He put on miserable clothing
00:12:31.120 and threw himself down
00:12:32.720 covered in filth and squalor
00:12:34.120 in front of those he met in the streets,
00:12:36.840 without even being ashamed
00:12:38.160 of bothering people
00:12:39.320 who knew nothing of the matter.
00:12:40.900 So that thanks to his inappropriate behaviour,
00:12:43.680 he became a figure of fun
00:12:44.920 instead of an object of pity.
00:12:46.600 So Cicero reacted poorly to this.
00:12:50.940 He didn't have a stiff upper lip.
00:12:53.480 He sort of,
00:12:54.000 it seems like he sort of collapsed a bit.
00:12:57.400 And, you know,
00:12:57.860 Appian suggests that he was trying
00:12:59.020 to garner pity.
00:13:00.760 But everyone just thought 0.99
00:13:01.760 it was pathetic. 0.96
00:13:02.780 See this, 0.98
00:13:03.340 the one-time consul of Rome
00:13:05.880 and great man,
00:13:06.740 one of the most famous lawyers,
00:13:09.360 prosecutors of his age,
00:13:12.060 one of the greatest orators
00:13:13.260 that Rome had,
00:13:15.300 reduced himself to,
00:13:17.100 what is it,
00:13:17.800 filth and squalor
00:13:18.800 in the streets
00:13:19.660 and that people just laughed at him.
00:13:22.140 So it is a bit funny there,
00:13:23.560 sees that Cicero
00:13:24.280 lost his nerve,
00:13:25.660 it seems.
00:13:26.600 Or perhaps it was just a ploy,
00:13:28.820 as I say,
00:13:29.380 to garner pity,
00:13:30.220 but it backfired.
00:13:31.480 Public opinion
00:13:32.080 didn't have sympathy for him
00:13:34.020 for whatever reason.
00:13:36.120 Appian continues,
00:13:36.820 such was the state of cowardice
00:13:38.980 he fell into
00:13:39.680 under a single case
00:13:40.800 which involved himself,
00:13:42.620 a man who had all his life
00:13:44.340 won a brilliant reputation
00:13:45.480 in the case of others.
00:13:47.000 In like manner,
00:13:48.100 they say Demosthenes,
00:13:49.360 the Athenian,
00:13:50.320 did not even wait
00:13:51.080 for his case to be decided,
00:13:52.780 but went into exile
00:13:53.980 before his trial.
00:13:55.640 When Clodius even insulted him
00:13:57.680 by interrupting his pleas
00:13:59.420 in the street,
00:14:00.760 Cicero abandoned all hope
00:14:02.140 and, like Demosthenes,
00:14:04.000 embraced exile voluntarily.
00:14:06.120 So, according to other accounts,
00:14:07.440 apparently in the life
00:14:08.700 of Cicero and things,
00:14:09.500 what happened was
00:14:10.120 Cicero is in the streets
00:14:12.020 sort of trying to garner pity 0.99
00:14:13.260 but just seeming pathetic. 0.96
00:14:15.120 Clodius and his toughs, 1.00
00:14:16.860 his thugs, 0.88
00:14:17.520 his gang, 0.92
00:14:18.380 his mob,
00:14:19.380 come up to Cicero
00:14:20.220 and basically threaten him.
00:14:21.980 It's still not enough
00:14:22.620 that he's been reduced to that
00:14:23.700 for Clodius.
00:14:24.820 Clodius is then like,
00:14:26.180 you better watch out,
00:14:26.960 it's basically words to the effect of
00:14:28.260 you better watch out
00:14:29.400 or, you know,
00:14:29.960 you're going to have an accident
00:14:31.100 if you're not careful.
00:14:32.620 In other words,
00:14:33.760 probably best if you leave town
00:14:35.280 or we're going to badly 0.99
00:14:36.480 assault you 1.00
00:14:37.240 or kill you. 1.00
00:14:38.020 That is the type of person 1.00
00:14:38.960 Clodius is,
00:14:39.840 there's no doubt about that.
00:14:40.860 He's, you know, 0.99
00:14:41.680 a killer, 1.00
00:14:42.620 a gangster. 0.99
00:14:43.500 And anyway,
00:14:43.920 Cicero doesn't have to be told twice
00:14:45.560 so he just flees.
00:14:47.760 Appian gives us the parallel
00:14:49.400 of Demosthenes.
00:14:50.800 But Cicero,
00:14:51.920 he's no fighter,
00:14:53.420 right?
00:14:53.840 He's not about to try
00:14:55.440 and muster a gang
00:14:57.080 or a mob of his own
00:14:58.220 and have street fights
00:15:00.260 with Clodius' mob
00:15:01.180 or have any sort of
00:15:02.660 one-on-one combat
00:15:03.540 with Clodius' fight,
00:15:05.020 whether it be with daggers
00:15:06.200 or swords
00:15:06.660 or fisticuffs
00:15:07.380 or clubs
00:15:07.960 or whatever
00:15:08.460 in the street
00:15:09.380 with Clodius.
00:15:09.920 That's not how Cicero rolls.
00:15:12.040 He feels he's got no option.
00:15:13.060 Probably he doesn't have any option
00:15:14.160 at this point
00:15:14.660 but flee.
00:15:16.260 So he does leave Rome
00:15:17.320 that's sort of a self-imposed exile
00:15:19.040 and he hates it.
00:15:20.300 He very, very much resents it.
00:15:22.380 Appian continues telling us,
00:15:23.460 A crowd of friends
00:15:24.760 accompanied him
00:15:25.680 out of the city
00:15:26.740 and the senate sent letters
00:15:28.340 commending him
00:15:29.360 to cities, kings
00:15:31.200 and petty rulers.
00:15:32.780 So he shan't have to live
00:15:33.740 in poverty at least.
00:15:35.220 Clodius pulled down
00:15:36.400 his townhouse
00:15:37.500 and his country residences
00:15:39.400 and was so elated by this
00:15:41.120 that he now compared himself
00:15:42.480 to Pompey
00:15:43.180 who was the most powerful man
00:15:44.640 in Rome.
00:15:45.500 So Clodius,
00:15:46.460 not content with
00:15:47.580 humiliating Cicero,
00:15:49.840 destroying him politically
00:15:50.980 and threatening him
00:15:52.420 to the point
00:15:52.840 where he has to literally flee
00:15:54.100 for his life.
00:15:55.340 He also destroys his houses.
00:15:57.440 So Clodius is not
00:15:58.800 someone to mess with.
00:16:00.300 Clodius plays for keeps
00:16:01.820 always.
00:16:03.020 As I say, 0.99
00:16:03.360 he's a bit of a crazy man, 0.99
00:16:04.580 a bit of a wild man. 0.96
00:16:05.760 Appian continues,
00:16:06.880 The latter, however,
00:16:08.080 Pompey,
00:16:08.820 encouraged Milo
00:16:09.800 who was more audacious
00:16:11.120 than Clodius
00:16:11.920 so that's pretty audacious
00:16:13.160 and had succeeded him
00:16:14.980 in office
00:16:15.560 to hope for the consulship.
00:16:17.560 So Milo's a tribune now
00:16:18.940 and he's in the pocket
00:16:20.020 of Pompey.
00:16:20.960 He's Pompey's man
00:16:21.540 in all sorts of ways.
00:16:22.320 And incited him
00:16:23.600 to oppose Clodius.
00:16:25.220 He also instructed him
00:16:26.380 to put through a bill
00:16:27.580 for Cicero's return
00:16:28.700 in the hope that
00:16:29.600 when Cicero appeared
00:16:30.540 he would be induced
00:16:31.800 by his memory
00:16:32.860 of what he had suffered
00:16:34.100 to say no more
00:16:35.240 about the current
00:16:35.860 political scene
00:16:36.700 but would embroil Clodius
00:16:38.200 in legal proceedings
00:16:39.600 and other complications.
00:16:41.720 Right,
00:16:42.020 so that's quite a big thing
00:16:43.060 there that's happened.
00:16:44.240 Pompey has decided
00:16:45.440 that he's had enough
00:16:47.420 of Clodius
00:16:48.000 because Clodius
00:16:49.480 by this stage
00:16:50.640 I've mentioned this
00:16:51.440 in the Crassus one
00:16:52.080 and probably the Cato one
00:16:53.380 as well
00:16:53.620 that Clodius is becoming
00:16:55.320 some sort of de facto
00:16:56.380 ruler of Rome
00:16:57.440 that his mob
00:16:58.380 his gang
00:16:59.040 they can force the Assembly
00:17:00.980 or the Senate
00:17:02.180 to do what they will
00:17:03.580 and so this tribune
00:17:04.840 is you know
00:17:05.860 once again
00:17:06.560 a troublesome tribune
00:17:08.140 is subverting
00:17:10.280 the Roman state
00:17:11.240 the Roman Republic
00:17:12.120 and he's even started
00:17:13.740 in on Pompey himself
00:17:15.420 now he's got rid of Cicero
00:17:17.020 it obviously emboldened him
00:17:18.420 even more
00:17:19.100 and he actually starts
00:17:20.600 on Pompey
00:17:21.440 and Pompey's party
00:17:22.380 Pompey's faction
00:17:23.180 in fact Clodius even
00:17:24.780 had some of his men
00:17:26.100 sort of posted 24-7
00:17:28.200 outside Pompey's house
00:17:30.160 and whenever Pompey
00:17:31.240 would come or go
00:17:31.920 they would sort of
00:17:32.520 jeer at him
00:17:33.120 or even throw rotten veg
00:17:35.220 things like that
00:17:35.920 to sort of undermine him
00:17:37.140 or unsettle him
00:17:38.100 or to just sort of
00:17:39.240 send him the message
00:17:40.380 that even the great
00:17:41.920 Pompey
00:17:42.480 who celebrated
00:17:43.320 three triumphs
00:17:44.460 he's the greatest
00:17:45.040 military man of the age
00:17:45.940 even he
00:17:46.920 is going to need
00:17:48.360 to submit
00:17:49.600 to the reality
00:17:50.720 that Clodius is
00:17:51.720 in control
00:17:52.480 in Rome
00:17:53.180 well Pompey won't have that
00:17:54.840 Pompey's a different man
00:17:56.060 to Cicero
00:17:57.100 Cicero has never had
00:17:59.000 a command
00:17:59.820 he's not a military
00:18:00.780 he was never a military man
00:18:01.980 Cato can't be intimidated
00:18:03.460 you just can't
00:18:04.060 intimidate Cato
00:18:05.120 it's not going to happen
00:18:05.760 but you can intimidate
00:18:06.940 Cicero
00:18:07.620 but Pompey
00:18:08.300 Pompey won't have it
00:18:09.220 if Pompey wants to
00:18:11.260 he could just go
00:18:12.440 and get a couple of legions
00:18:13.560 and invest Rome
00:18:14.520 and wipe Claudius
00:18:15.840 and his men out
00:18:16.440 if he really wanted to do that
00:18:17.600 if he wanted to go full Sulla
00:18:18.840 never go full Sulla
00:18:19.940 but if he wanted to
00:18:20.960 he could
00:18:21.960 but he doesn't decide
00:18:23.060 to do that
00:18:23.380 instead
00:18:23.720 he decides to try
00:18:25.160 and fight fire with fire
00:18:26.540 okay we've got a troublesome
00:18:27.740 popular tribune
00:18:28.980 I'll get my own tribune
00:18:30.420 this Milo character
00:18:31.680 and I'll get him
00:18:33.000 to thwart Claudius
00:18:34.020 legally
00:18:34.620 in all sorts of ways
00:18:35.740 and if and when
00:18:36.960 that doesn't succeed
00:18:38.100 Pompey
00:18:38.720 I'll create my own gang
00:18:40.920 my counter-Claudius gang
00:18:43.040 and put Milo in charge of them
00:18:45.320 if needs be
00:18:46.160 Pompey's just not going to
00:18:47.240 put up with
00:18:48.000 any attempts
00:18:48.980 to intimidate him
00:18:50.360 on the steps of his own home
00:18:51.760 or anything like that
00:18:53.000 so finally
00:18:54.200 someone's pushing back
00:18:55.780 significantly against Clodius
00:18:57.380 and it's Pompey
00:18:58.680 now
00:18:59.260 how much Clodius
00:19:00.580 is basically acting
00:19:01.920 entirely on behalf of Caesar
00:19:04.000 most people think that
00:19:05.140 probably not
00:19:06.080 at some point he was
00:19:07.080 at some point their
00:19:07.840 goals and aims
00:19:09.680 completely aligned
00:19:10.700 but very quickly
00:19:11.580 once Caesar's gone
00:19:12.340 for a year or two
00:19:13.100 Clodius is just
00:19:13.840 acting for himself
00:19:15.240 wants to be a player
00:19:16.420 completely independently
00:19:18.060 of anyone
00:19:18.620 including Caesar
00:19:19.460 and Pompey's just not
00:19:21.260 going to have that
00:19:21.740 oh yeah
00:19:22.140 and he also
00:19:22.820 gets Milo
00:19:23.820 to recall Cicero
00:19:25.360 because Cicero
00:19:26.480 would be
00:19:27.460 or is
00:19:28.040 a very great tool
00:19:29.780 of oratory
00:19:30.800 so Pompey's decided
00:19:32.740 to pull out
00:19:33.160 all the stops
00:19:33.700 against Clodius
00:19:34.580 try and thwart him
00:19:35.860 in the war of words
00:19:38.040 in the courts
00:19:39.260 and ultimately
00:19:40.420 in the end
00:19:41.020 on the streets
00:19:41.820 so Cicero is recalled
00:19:43.620 Appian tells us
00:19:44.840 and so Cicero
00:19:46.140 who had gone into exile
00:19:47.760 because of Pompey
00:19:48.760 returned home
00:19:49.580 because of Pompey
00:19:50.420 about 16 months
00:19:51.500 after his expulsion
00:19:52.520 and his townhouse
00:19:53.760 and country residences
00:19:54.940 were rebuilt
00:19:55.960 at public expense
00:19:57.020 they say that
00:19:57.780 when he was received
00:19:58.740 at the gates
00:19:59.420 of Rome
00:20:00.040 in spectacular style
00:20:01.560 by the entire population
00:20:02.700 the whole day
00:20:03.780 was spent on greetings
00:20:04.860 as in the case
00:20:06.000 of Demosthenes
00:20:07.080 okay let's talk about
00:20:08.520 the same sort of thing
00:20:09.780 the same period
00:20:10.480 the same few events
00:20:11.560 this time from Plutarch
00:20:13.200 in his life of Pompey
00:20:15.580 and he says this
00:20:17.000 Pompey himself
00:20:17.940 soon allowed himself
00:20:19.240 to be weakly seduced
00:20:20.480 by his passion
00:20:21.520 for his young wife
00:20:22.560 again wasn't really
00:20:23.980 a done thing
00:20:24.680 for an important Roman
00:20:25.560 to love your wife
00:20:26.760 too much
00:20:27.280 he spent all his time
00:20:28.660 with her
00:20:29.040 in country houses
00:20:29.940 and pleasure gardens
00:20:30.940 and paid no attention
00:20:32.220 to what was going on
00:20:33.180 in the forum
00:20:33.760 the result
00:20:34.920 was that even Clodius
00:20:36.340 who was now
00:20:37.040 tribune of the people
00:20:38.060 began to despise him
00:20:39.540 and to venture upon
00:20:40.580 the most outrageous actions
00:20:41.900 he had driven Cicero
00:20:43.480 into exile
00:20:44.240 and had got Cato
00:20:45.540 sent to Cyprus
00:20:46.520 on the pretext
00:20:47.520 of a military commission
00:20:48.700 yeah that was an interesting
00:20:50.280 thing that Clodius did
00:20:51.820 as a tribune
00:20:52.640 he legally gets the state
00:20:54.240 to offer Cato
00:20:55.600 a governorship
00:20:56.360 on Cyprus
00:20:57.300 and Cato says to him
00:20:59.200 openly just says
00:21:00.220 look you don't need me
00:21:02.220 to be the governor
00:21:03.480 of Cyprus
00:21:04.180 I'm sort of
00:21:04.960 kind of above all that
00:21:05.820 I'm sort of
00:21:06.320 at a creator level
00:21:07.380 hoping to be console
00:21:08.240 one day
00:21:08.820 you don't
00:21:09.320 you're obviously
00:21:10.080 just trying to
00:21:10.700 get me out of the city
00:21:11.680 you're obviously
00:21:12.520 just trying to
00:21:13.260 do away with me
00:21:14.740 so that you can 0.97
00:21:15.820 do all the nasty
00:21:16.960 nefarious things
00:21:17.840 you want to do
00:21:18.580 and Clodius
00:21:19.480 and his factions
00:21:20.240 basically say
00:21:21.020 yeah well
00:21:21.700 yeah kind of
00:21:22.580 yeah what are you
00:21:23.140 going to do though
00:21:23.640 but you're Cato
00:21:24.920 you always do
00:21:26.020 everything by the
00:21:26.660 letter of the law
00:21:27.420 and the law says
00:21:29.780 that you're really
00:21:30.880 obliged to go to
00:21:32.400 Cyprus now
00:21:33.160 for a few years
00:21:33.820 for a year or two
00:21:34.480 so what are you going
00:21:35.380 to do
00:21:35.640 break your word
00:21:36.680 or do as you've
00:21:38.200 always do
00:21:38.740 which is follow
00:21:39.400 the letter of the law
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