The Podcast of the Lotus Eaters - PREVIEW： Epochs #209 ｜ The History of Steam with Alex Masters

00:00:00.000 Hello and welcome to this episode of Epochs where I should be talking all about the history of Steam

00:00:04.880 and I'm joined by Alex Masters, how are you sir?

00:00:06.740 Hello, good afternoon, yes I'm very well, thank you

00:00:08.600 It's great to have you on

00:00:10.040 Thank you, yes, great to be here

00:00:11.340 I should be picking your brain, I should be genuinely learning things

00:00:14.340 Hopefully, I'm sure I will

00:00:16.200 Always good

00:00:16.820 I'm sure I will

00:00:17.460 Okay, so because your wheelhouse is Steam

00:00:20.240 Yes

00:00:20.860 All things Steam

00:00:22.460 Hopefully, yes

00:00:23.260 So one of the things I definitely want to talk about at some point

00:00:26.060 is sort of the technical side and the history of it all

00:00:29.340 But I thought before we go there, just talk generally a bit about sort of the world of Steam more broadly

00:00:36.880 Yeah

00:00:37.460 In the modern era, I mean

00:00:38.880 Well, in the modern era, it's quite an interesting sort of field

00:00:45.080 There's a sort of little and large, I suppose you could say

00:00:47.300 Because the large stuff is an awful lot of electricity generation is all done by Steam

00:00:54.320 Nuclear power plants are just big steam engines

00:00:57.200 And nuclear engineers get very upset when you say, all right, so it's just a big steam engine

00:01:02.040 Yeah

00:01:02.440 But that's what it is

00:01:04.340 And combined cycle gas turbines and all the rest of it

00:01:07.120 Where you have a gas turbine and then what have you got in the exhaust?

00:01:10.520 You've got a steam engine to get even more power out of it and things like that

00:01:13.460 So there's a lot of it still about

00:01:15.900 Well, I've actually, I said this to you once before when you was on the podcast a while ago

00:01:21.540 I said, I feel like we're living in sort of an augmented steam age still

00:01:26.820 Yes

00:01:27.340 If aliens came down, they would be like, you guys are still in a steam age

00:01:31.120 Yeah

00:01:31.480 Because I remember asking you, you know, like even the, in France, they've got like that nuclear fission

00:01:37.220 Or is it fusion?

00:01:38.840 You know, the one with the chamber full of plasma

00:01:40.700 Oh, the fusion

00:01:41.620 Fusion

00:01:42.060 Yeah

00:01:42.480 And I said to you, is that even just using the heat to make steam to turn a turbine?

00:01:48.360 Probably, yeah

00:01:48.640 So we are still in the steam age

00:01:51.220 Yeah

00:01:51.380 Absolutely

00:01:52.240 Surely, surely hydrodynamic, surely like the Three Gorges Dam isn't doing that

00:01:58.640 Surely that's directly turning a turbine

00:02:00.500 Yeah, that's just momentum

00:02:02.100 But still a normal, even a normal like Chernobyl style nuclear power plant

00:02:07.540 It's just to heat up water to make steam

00:02:09.480 Yeah, we've, we've never really bettered it

00:02:11.980 There's been a lot of interesting things where people have tried to use other things in steam engines

00:02:18.060 Right

00:02:18.740 But the, the problem is, is that water is such a fantastic medium of transferring heat energy

00:02:25.220 Right

00:02:25.680 Essentially

00:02:26.080 Right

00:02:26.560 And it doesn't matter what you make it hot with

00:02:28.820 Which is the other benefit

00:02:30.980 You, you take an awful lot of heat out of whatever the hot thing is

00:02:35.020 You transfer it into the engine

00:02:36.700 And then you can dump an order, a massive amount of it back out as, as mechanical work

00:02:42.320 So that it really has never been bettered on, particularly on like grid scale stuff

00:02:47.260 When you're talking, I want to make 2 million horsepower

00:02:49.660 A reciprocating engine just can't do that

00:02:52.620 Right

00:02:53.060 It has to be a turbine

00:02:54.300 It has to be a steam turbine

00:02:55.720 So it has to be a steam engine

00:02:57.560 I just would have thought

00:02:59.040 I'm obviously wrong

00:03:00.320 But I just would have thought from a non-scientist, non-engineered person

00:03:03.600 We, humans, mankind

00:03:05.840 Would have thought up something better than that by now

00:03:08.660 But I guess you are right that there isn't anything

00:03:11.960 Yeah, ultimately it's just physics

00:03:13.660 Right

00:03:14.200 Really

00:03:15.300 There's, there was a lot of things

00:03:17.020 In like the 1880s and 1890s for some weird reason

00:03:21.700 Like, right, I'm going to do a steam engine

00:03:23.440 But I'm going to use alcohol

00:03:24.600 Or I'm going to use, because the boiling point's lower

00:03:27.840 And you go, okay, but, you know, it can't transfer as much energy

00:03:30.660 Or I'm going to use naphtha, which is basically petrol

00:03:34.200 That was always a fun one

00:03:35.340 Or

00:03:36.620 What, evaporate or heat up, boil naphtha

00:03:39.660 Yes

00:03:40.140 To turn a turbine

00:03:40.920 Yes

00:03:41.340 Okay

00:03:42.340 And that was an interesting one

00:03:43.660 Because that was, yeah, you have a tank of fuel

00:03:45.700 You boil the petrol in a boiler

00:03:49.820 Run the petrol through the engine

00:03:51.980 To drive the, you know, prop shaft or whatever it is you're doing

00:03:55.920 And then the exhaust from that channels into the burner

00:03:58.700 And then you burn off the exhaust

00:04:00.700 And that's what heats the petrol

00:04:01.880 Right

00:04:02.380 So it was quite a clever little system

00:04:04.120 The only problem was, if anything leaked

00:04:06.420 It just immediately exploded

00:04:07.720 Right, I was going to say

00:04:08.460 Isn't that extremely dangerous?

00:04:10.340 And surely you get through

00:04:11.640 You'd spend so much money on naphtha

00:04:13.500 Yeah

00:04:13.900 But it was, you know, back then

00:04:17.460 Essentially petrol was just a useless by-product of making kerosene

00:04:22.140 Right

00:04:22.600 Which you were using in lamps

00:04:23.600 Right

00:04:24.040 So, yeah, they were trying to come up with some interesting uses

00:04:26.240 And then, of course, you get the petrol engine

00:04:28.100 And away they go

00:04:29.580 The other thing is, not just the steam for the turbine

00:04:32.280 But also just the idea of a spinning magnet

00:04:36.920 Yeah

00:04:37.580 To make the actual electricity

00:04:39.060 Yeah

00:04:39.580 I always still feel like

00:04:41.060 Have we not thought of anything better than that?

00:04:43.860 Is there not some special scientific way to make electricity better than doing it that way?

00:04:50.420 But again, you've said there's not

00:04:52.460 That's sort of the perfect way

00:04:53.760 Or it's sort of the only way or something

00:04:55.660 Yeah, it was funny, you know

00:04:58.060 Dan and I were talking in the office about this when we were waiting to come on

00:05:01.300 And you sort of say, well, you know, why do you have to do that?

00:05:05.460 And you go, well, on an alternating current system as we've got

00:05:09.060 Which is running at 50 hertz

00:05:11.500 That 50 hertz is governed by the spin of the generator in the power station

00:05:17.640 And as you put load on and take load off

00:05:21.180 It's the inertia in the spinning thing

00:05:24.180 Which keeps that lovely 50 hertz sine wave

00:05:26.540 Right

00:05:27.220 And what the Spanish have found out

00:05:30.020 Which they'll never admit to

00:05:31.980 Is that you can't generate that inertia in any other way

00:05:35.960 Than having a massive metal object spinning at 3000 RPM

00:05:39.220 You can't simulate it

00:05:42.360 Because that's what a lot of the solar panels do

00:05:46.660 Is they will make DC current

00:05:49.600 Put it through an inverter

00:05:51.400 To make it into AC current

00:05:53.500 But it's only like a facsimile of that actual sine wave

00:05:58.640 And then you sort of superimpose that onto the one that's being made by the steam engine

00:06:04.140 The only problem with that is

00:06:06.660 As I'm sure the Spanish are going to admit to

00:06:08.960 Is if anything ever happens to that

00:06:11.800 And you suddenly can't put that load on the grid

00:06:15.660 Or on the solar panels

00:06:16.880 Because there's a cloud or something

00:06:18.740 If you don't have enough spinning reserve

00:06:21.940 To dampen the effects of that sudden load shed

00:06:25.540 The grid just trips

00:06:27.200 And bad things happen

00:06:29.120 Right

00:06:29.600 But yes, I'll let Dan talk about that

00:06:32.540 Anyone who might be watching this a long time from now

00:06:35.140 It's in the news cycle in the last couple of days

00:06:37.600 There's been massive power outages in Spain

00:06:39.660 I was going to say, it's the current, current thing

00:06:41.220 So if you're watching this next week

00:06:42.460 You'll have forgotten about it

00:06:43.300 Or like five years from now

00:06:44.400 Yeah

00:06:45.140 Okay, so

00:06:46.740 Yeah, but just that thing of

00:06:48.240 Realising or understanding

00:06:51.120 Electromagnetism

00:06:52.980 We haven't

00:06:55.080 From the first time in

00:06:56.320 What, the early 19th century, was it?

00:06:58.480 Very early 19th century

00:06:59.700 There's not been a massive breakthrough

00:07:01.440 In some completely new way of generating electricity

00:07:05.460 It's still that exact same thing

00:07:07.700 Basically

00:07:08.380 It's one of those things

00:07:09.520 I know Herr Schattenmacher

00:07:12.460 The German chap at the last Witten

00:07:15.680 Actually did a talk on this

00:07:17.180 Which was about the sort of innovation challenge

00:07:20.340 Where essentially we're not in an age of innovation

00:07:24.060 Actually what we're in is in an age of stagnation

00:07:25.960 Because in our current paradigm

00:07:28.000 We've sort of invented everything

00:07:29.920 And

00:07:31.400 Surely not

00:07:32.200 Surely that's incorrect

00:07:34.040 Surely no

00:07:35.340 You imagine

00:07:36.320 You know

00:07:37.040 Back

00:07:37.420 A thousand

00:07:38.480 Two thousand years ago

00:07:39.680 When they invented iron working

00:07:41.660 And it completely revolutionised absolutely everything

00:07:44.180 And iron is an abundant material in the earth's crust

00:07:47.620 And you can make it into lots of stuff

00:07:49.760 And all the rest of it

00:07:50.520 There's

00:07:51.540 All those sort of easy wins have been done

00:07:55.200 So the amount of effort you have to put in to invent a new thing

00:07:59.860 Is just going up and up and up

00:08:01.700 And sort of returns on investment

00:08:03.860 Are just going down and down and down

00:08:05.340 It's

00:08:06.120 A steam engine turning a shaft to make electricity

00:08:09.620 Is on balance

00:08:11.700 About as good as it's going to get

00:08:13.720 You could throw infinity money at trying to make something else

00:08:17.440 Right

00:08:18.060 Which might be like 2% better

00:08:20.000 Right

00:08:20.740 Right

00:08:21.700 It just isn't worth it

00:08:23.560 Right

00:08:23.980 And you know

00:08:25.340 That's what the steam engine is

00:08:26.740 The steam engine was the

00:08:27.840 The first time we ever managed to make mechanical work

00:08:31.080 That's the massive leap

00:08:33.440 Right

00:08:33.940 And it's only ever been development since then

00:08:36.720 It's not been seismic changes

00:08:39.760 It's just been sort of iterations

00:08:41.120 Because you know

00:08:43.080 We look at

00:08:43.500 Well it kicked off the industrial revolution

00:08:45.260 Yeah

00:08:45.820 I know that's a broad term

00:08:47.100 But still nonetheless

00:08:47.980 I think it's hard for people to imagine in the 2020s

00:08:52.380 It's hard for them to imagine

00:08:54.180 I know it is for me

00:08:55.000 Even though I've tried loads

00:08:55.920 What the pre-industrial world was like

00:08:59.060 When there was no precision engineering

00:09:02.080 Everything was handmade

00:09:03.360 Everything was handmade

00:09:05.180 There was no electricity

00:09:06.760 It's hard to really wrap your mind around what that world was like

00:09:12.220 Even more like fundamental than that

00:09:14.060 If you couldn't lift the thing

00:09:16.940 It didn't get lifted

00:09:19.080 Right

00:09:19.420 Yeah

00:09:19.740 And I often

00:09:20.820 You cannot go faster than a horse

00:09:22.320 No

00:09:22.560 You can't

00:09:23.120 You cannot go higher than jumping

00:09:25.860 No

00:09:26.340 I often say

00:09:27.360 All the whole

00:09:29.040 Like field of engineering

00:09:30.800 All engineering is

00:09:31.960 It's in its entirety

00:09:33.260 Since classical era

00:09:34.620 Is

00:09:35.380 I have a heavy thing

00:09:37.040 And I want it over there

00:09:38.840 Right

00:09:39.740 That's all engineering is

00:09:41.220 It's just moving the heavy thing

00:09:43.020 From one place

00:09:44.020 To a different place

00:09:45.080 And

00:09:46.340 Before

00:09:47.660 Mechanical inventions

00:09:49.340 Before the steam engine

00:09:50.460 Either

00:09:51.640 You use horsepower

00:09:53.100 Literal horsepower

00:09:54.580 Or

00:09:55.660 You

00:09:56.100 Just have

00:09:57.080 Chaps

00:09:57.800 And they have to

00:09:59.500 Like

00:09:59.900 Move the thing

00:10:01.120 And

00:10:02.280 And that's

00:10:02.780 That's

00:10:03.300 That's the only two ways

00:10:04.340 You can do it

00:10:04.900 So if you think

00:10:05.600 Like

00:10:05.940 Always the fun experiment

00:10:08.100 Is like

00:10:08.400 You know

00:10:08.660 How do you make beans on toast

00:10:09.960 Without mechanical

00:10:10.680 You know

00:10:11.420 We have to grow the beans yourself

00:10:13.000 Right

00:10:13.220 Okay

00:10:13.400 So that takes six months

00:10:14.380 Or what about the

00:10:15.620 Oh and the corn

00:10:16.900 I have to grow that myself

00:10:17.960 For the cornstarch

00:10:19.440 And the sauce

00:10:19.800 And what about the tomatoes

00:10:20.700 You have to go

00:10:21.300 And then

00:10:22.040 Well I can't make a tin

00:10:23.380 So I've got to use it

00:10:24.100 In the last six weeks

00:10:25.040 Or I put it in a glass jar

00:10:26.500 Well okay

00:10:27.220 It's got to be in a glass jar

00:10:28.160 Which means I need to know

00:10:28.940 A glass blower

00:10:29.560 Who can blow the jar

00:10:30.420 And then I have to make a little

00:10:31.940 You know

00:10:32.280 A little wrap to go on the top

00:10:33.400 To keep it

00:10:33.840 And then

00:10:34.460 Right okay

00:10:35.060 The bread

00:10:35.480 I've got to grow the wheat myself

00:10:36.660 And then I've got to

00:10:38.200 Harvest it myself

00:10:39.580 And then I've got to

00:10:40.720 Thrash it myself

00:10:41.740 And mill it myself

00:10:43.720 Yeah

00:10:44.180 You know

00:10:44.700 And it

00:10:45.080 It goes on

00:10:45.820 You just go back

00:10:47.060 And back and back

00:10:47.620 And you end up like

00:10:48.360 Oh yeah

00:10:48.660 It takes 10,000 man hours

00:10:50.000 To make beans on toast

00:10:51.060 Yeah

00:10:51.500 Yeah

00:10:52.260 I think Carl Sagan once said

00:10:53.900 In order to create

00:10:55.260 An apple pie from scratch

00:10:56.700 You need to first invent

00:10:57.840 The universe

00:10:58.700 Yes

00:10:59.180 Something like that

00:10:59.840 Yeah

00:11:00.100 There's a great one

00:11:01.560 In the science museum

00:11:02.320 And it's this sort of like

00:11:03.340 Salvador Dali-esque monstrosity

00:11:05.920 And it essentially says

00:11:07.540 Yeah a man tried to build

00:11:08.640 A toaster from scratch

00:11:09.780 And it took him like

00:11:10.720 40 grand

00:11:11.660 And a thousand man hours

00:11:13.680 And he couldn't do it

00:11:14.520 Right

00:11:14.820 Yeah

00:11:15.520 It's one of those things

00:11:16.800 Where

00:11:17.140 Yeah

00:11:17.860 Where we stand on the

00:11:18.700 Shoulders of giants

00:11:19.580 Or we stand on the

00:11:21.140 Shoulders of every single

00:11:22.240 Generation that's been before

00:11:23.480 Yeah

00:11:23.820 And so

00:11:25.660 It came back to

00:11:26.600 If there was a full

00:11:27.180 Systems collapse

00:11:28.140 You would go back

00:11:29.260 To having to

00:11:30.160 Design and build

00:11:31.320 An ancient style plow

00:11:33.340 Yes

00:11:34.340 Because if the food

00:11:36.320 System collapsed

00:11:37.560 You can't just go to

00:11:38.400 Your local Tesco's

00:11:39.120 And buy food

00:11:39.640 No

00:11:39.920 It does go down

00:11:41.820 To people being able

00:11:42.720 To grow stuff

00:11:45.220 In an allotment

00:11:45.880 Or in the field

00:11:46.560 Yeah

00:11:46.920 And then you really

00:11:47.800 Need to know

00:11:48.300 How to yoke

00:11:48.980 A horse or an oxen

00:11:50.280 And build an ancient

00:11:51.260 Style plow

00:11:52.540 Yeah

00:11:52.920 Who can do that

00:11:53.940 These days

00:11:54.440 If not

00:11:54.900 You're doing it

00:11:55.500 Is there anyone really

00:11:56.400 You're doing it

00:11:57.040 On your own

00:11:57.600 There might be

00:11:57.960 A couple of chaps

00:11:58.580 Who do it as a lot

00:11:59.640 But like

00:12:00.100 Yeah

00:12:00.340 Scratching

00:12:01.100 Scratching the dirt

00:12:02.840 With an antler

00:12:04.740 Is the closest

00:12:06.280 You're going to get

00:12:06.760 To plowing

00:12:07.300 Regard

00:12:07.860 You know

00:12:08.400 But you'd have to

00:12:09.600 Catch the deer first

00:12:10.720 That's why

00:12:12.420 Systems collapse

00:12:13.220 Is so terrifying

00:12:14.620 Yeah

00:12:15.260 Because we would

00:12:16.340 Do you think

00:12:17.560 We're supposed to be

00:12:18.640 Talking about steam engines

00:12:19.380 Sorry

00:12:19.600 No no no

00:12:20.260 I love it

00:12:20.660 I love it

00:12:21.120 We could very

00:12:23.860 Very quickly

00:12:24.580 Regress back to

00:12:25.780 That though

00:12:26.440 I mean

00:12:26.760 In one step

00:12:27.860 Go back to

00:12:28.700 You've got to

00:12:29.780 Work the fields

00:12:30.360 Otherwise you starve

00:12:31.500 Now

00:12:31.900 I was

00:12:32.900 In fact

00:12:33.720 Birdie

00:12:35.540 My wife and I

00:12:36.540 Were watching

00:12:37.220 The Hunger Games

00:12:37.780 At the moment

00:12:38.120 Because it's on Netflix

00:12:38.860 And it's

00:12:39.980 A part of me

00:12:41.580 I'm quite enjoying it

00:12:42.780 It's the first time

00:12:43.260 I've ever watched the films

00:12:44.660 But you know

00:12:45.600 They shut the capital off

00:12:47.200 And it's supposed to be

00:12:48.420 This you know

00:12:49.040 Centre of debauchery

00:12:50.240 And all the rest of it

00:12:51.060 And they go right

00:12:51.980 Well all the districts

00:12:52.760 Have just isolated the capital

00:12:54.040 And then the final films happen

00:12:56.380 And they're all sort of

00:12:57.000 Fine with it

00:12:57.480 I was like no

00:12:58.080 If you cut them off

00:12:59.820 From their food supply

00:13:00.780 They'd starve in a week

00:13:02.200 You know

00:13:03.020 It's just game over

00:13:04.280 You know

00:13:04.760 The lights go out

00:13:06.140 Halfway through the third film

00:13:07.580 And you're just like

00:13:08.740 No that's it

00:13:09.700 They'd all

00:13:10.080 They'd all just die

00:13:11.400 Very quickly

00:13:13.040 Because it's like

00:13:13.600 How do you heat water

00:13:14.680 Without electricity

00:13:16.140 In a city

00:13:16.980 Yeah

00:13:18.280 Which is one of the most

00:13:19.480 Fundamental things

00:13:20.140 You know

00:13:20.440 I can't boil water

00:13:22.160 Oh right

00:13:22.540 So you can't even have

00:13:23.420 You know

00:13:23.800 Soup

00:13:24.240 Yeah

00:13:25.180 You just have to eat

00:13:26.180 Raw vegetables

00:13:26.940 Until you've plundered

00:13:28.260 Tesco's

00:13:28.800 And then you just

00:13:29.380 Starve to death

00:13:30.000 And then there's a

00:13:31.180 Small window of everyone

00:13:32.220 Trying to plunder off

00:13:33.160 Each other

00:13:33.620 And then even those

00:13:34.620 Survivors starve as well

00:13:35.580 Yeah

00:13:35.940 And that's it

00:13:37.040 And then you go back to

00:13:37.940 It's one of the things

00:13:38.760 That's really truly terrifying

00:13:40.340 Is like a pre-industrial

00:13:43.360 System can only support

00:13:44.980 A pre-industrial economy

00:13:46.040 A population

00:13:47.120 Right

00:13:47.420 You think right

00:13:48.340 Well before the

00:13:48.980 Industrial Revolution

00:13:49.860 The population of England

00:13:51.520 Was about 2 million

00:13:52.420 It's like

00:13:53.520 Okay so

00:13:54.300 72 million people

00:13:55.760 Have to starve to death

00:13:56.660 Okay

00:13:58.640 Yeah

00:13:59.300 I'd rather not go through

00:14:00.260 A systems collapse

00:14:01.100 Thank you very much

00:14:01.680 And the violence and horror

00:14:02.860 That will go along

00:14:03.920 With that inevitably

00:14:04.860 Not everyone's just

00:14:05.860 Going to meekly

00:14:06.780 Collapse on their own

00:14:08.000 Living room floor

00:14:08.740 While they starve to death

00:14:09.860 Right

00:14:10.060 Yeah

00:14:10.300 Yeah you get

00:14:10.940 You get six months

00:14:11.760 Of Mad Max

00:14:12.500 And then it really is over

00:14:13.580 God

00:14:14.240 Yeah terrified

00:14:15.480 The other week

00:14:16.460 About a month ago

00:14:17.400 In Swindon

00:14:18.040 There was a power cut

00:14:19.000 Yeah

00:14:19.520 And it lasted quite a while

00:14:21.120 Because you know

00:14:22.340 We get power cuts

00:14:22.960 From time to time

00:14:23.520 But it's usually like

00:14:24.180 A few minutes

00:14:24.920 But this one went on

00:14:26.200 For like quite a few hours

00:14:27.580 Like four or five hours

00:14:29.540 And

00:14:30.020 And

00:14:31.620 My phone

00:14:32.580 The battery on my phone

00:14:33.820 Had died as well

00:14:34.700 Yep

00:14:34.920 So I was like

00:14:36.000 So that was dead

00:14:36.740 Everything else was dead

00:14:37.820 Can't call for help

00:14:38.720 You've got like no TV

00:14:40.580 No nothing

00:14:41.320 Like the oven is electric

00:14:44.100 So it's not a gas

00:14:46.260 It's not a hob

00:14:46.840 Or anything

00:14:47.240 So like

00:14:48.140 Like what do I do

00:14:50.520 And I eventually went outside

00:14:51.700 Just to walk around

00:14:52.240 Just to waste time

00:14:53.380 Yeah

00:14:53.900 And like all the shop windows

00:14:56.360 Are dark

00:14:57.000 And stuff

00:14:57.940 I'm like

00:14:58.340 If this extended for days

00:15:00.860 Or weeks or months

00:15:01.740 Oh yeah

00:15:02.280 It would be

00:15:03.720 A nightmare

00:15:04.680 It would be

00:15:04.960 A terrifying nightmare

00:15:06.200 We had a similar sort of

00:15:07.920 Power cut in Cornwall

00:15:08.740 That lasted

00:15:09.200 I think it was about

00:15:10.000 An afternoon

00:15:10.600 And fortunately

00:15:12.100 In our

00:15:12.800 Cottage

00:15:14.440 There's two open fires

00:15:15.460 And I had

00:15:17.020 You know

00:15:17.500 A reasonable bunker

00:15:18.460 Of coals

00:15:19.040 In the

00:15:19.500 In the shed

00:15:20.320 So

00:15:22.120 And then in front

00:15:22.920 Of the living room fire

00:15:23.800 I've got a trivet

00:15:24.500 With a

00:15:25.040 Old copper kettle on it

00:15:26.280 You know

00:15:27.060 It just looks nice

00:15:27.960 But

00:15:28.340 Suddenly the power goes out

00:15:29.820 And you go right

00:15:30.260 Well the kettle doesn't work

00:15:31.080 And within

00:15:31.920 Two hours

00:15:33.140 There were

00:15:33.780 Two kettles

00:15:35.600 There was

00:15:36.500 There was

00:15:37.000 That kettle

00:15:38.040 The stainless steel teapot

00:15:39.580 A saucepan

00:15:42.260 And then the tea

00:15:43.440 Was just being kept warm

00:15:44.780 You know

00:15:45.760 Next to it

00:15:46.540 So it's like right

00:15:47.060 Once I've got the water

00:15:47.840 Up to temperature

00:15:48.460 Then I can just drink tea

00:15:49.740 Continuously

00:15:50.420 And I can also sort of

00:15:51.560 Flatten the fire out

00:15:52.340 And I can fry bacon on it

00:15:53.640 That was fine

00:15:55.240 And Birdie and I

00:15:56.600 Were literally sat there going

00:15:57.300 Right

00:15:57.600 Yeah

00:15:58.300 The oven's electric

00:15:59.360 The hob's electric

00:16:00.240 We're going to have to cook

00:16:01.560 On an open fire here

00:16:02.840 Okay

00:16:03.840 This is going to be fun

00:16:04.700 What have we got in the fridge

00:16:05.720 Which is dying

00:16:06.480 Because it hasn't

00:16:07.080 What do I need to eat first

00:16:10.100 But

00:16:11.420 We're lucky

00:16:12.380 In that we've got that

00:16:13.420 Back up

00:16:14.580 Yeah

00:16:15.140 The vast majority of people

00:16:16.920 Won't have even that

00:16:18.000 Not even that

00:16:18.920 You will be eating cold beans

00:16:20.260 Until you've run out of beans

00:16:21.580 And then you just

00:16:22.360 Die

00:16:23.020 Yeah

00:16:23.600 Horrible

00:16:25.800 It's worrying isn't it

00:16:27.220 Oh yeah

00:16:27.600 I asked you this before we came on

00:16:30.040 But I'll ask you it now

00:16:30.820 Because I feel like

00:16:31.400 It goes into it

00:16:32.800 And we'll get back to steam engines

00:16:33.760 In a moment

00:16:34.240 But talking about this sort of stuff

00:16:35.980 I often think

00:16:38.120 Maybe it's a weird

00:16:38.740 History nerds thing to think

00:16:40.020 If I was quantum leaped back in time

00:16:42.340 To a completely pre-industrial age

00:16:45.540 Even the ancient world

00:16:46.760 Would I have enough knowledge

00:16:49.500 Just literally rattling around in my brain

00:16:51.080 Right now

00:16:51.580 If I was quantum leaped now

00:16:52.620 Not got no research time

00:16:54.600 Would I be able

00:16:56.180 How much

00:16:57.040 Would I be able to recreate

00:16:58.560 From the modern world

00:16:59.840 Like

00:17:00.480 Could I

00:17:01.100 Have I got enough in my mind

00:17:02.520 To even begin

00:17:04.440 To impart knowledge

00:17:06.120 To other genius men

00:17:07.340 Even

00:17:07.700 To kick off

00:17:09.180 Even the first kernels

00:17:10.680 Of an industrial revolution

00:17:11.800 I'm not sure

00:17:13.280 I would

00:17:14.340 Do you think you

00:17:15.260 If I went

00:17:15.840 You've got everything you need

00:17:16.660 If I got kicked back to

00:17:18.160 AA's

00:17:18.860 Was it

00:17:19.140 1381

00:17:20.040 John Smith

00:17:20.860 Let's say 1381

00:17:22.140 You're quantum leaped back to 1381

00:17:23.740 Could you start

00:17:24.900 An industrial revolution

00:17:26.900 I wouldn't be able to start

00:17:28.360 An industrial revolution

00:17:29.320 I'd probably be able to get us back

00:17:32.600 If I took Birdie back with me

00:17:33.800 I'd be fine

00:17:34.260 Because she does all the gardening

00:17:35.360 And all the rest of it

00:17:36.220 She knows how to like

00:17:36.840 Grow food

00:17:37.420 So that's really useful

00:17:39.020 Because

00:17:39.520 I can do like potatoes

00:17:41.380 But I'm more interested

00:17:43.020 In like soil health

00:17:44.360 And all the rest of it

00:17:45.180 So I just

00:17:45.580 I just make the beds up

00:17:46.540 And then she grows stuff

00:17:47.440 We were talking about this

00:17:51.960 Yeah

00:17:52.160 There's certain concepts

00:17:54.000 That they didn't have

00:17:54.920 Which we do

00:17:55.940 Where you could certainly

00:17:58.200 Push the tech along a bit

00:17:59.620 Right

00:18:00.000 Yeah how far

00:18:00.960 On the tech tree

00:18:01.620 You've got

00:18:02.100 You've got 40 years

00:18:03.620 How far

00:18:04.140 And let's say you've got

00:18:05.000 Dozens or even

00:18:05.720 A few hundred men

00:18:06.520 At your disposal

00:18:07.080 I might be able to get you

00:18:09.400 To the Napoleonic Wars

00:18:10.400 Really

00:18:11.040 Yeah

00:18:11.520 I don't think it would be

00:18:12.380 Much further than that

00:18:13.280 Because

00:18:14.740 You go back to 1381

00:18:16.660 And

00:18:17.860 There are no machine tools

00:18:20.440 Right

00:18:21.120 Yeah

00:18:21.500 Which are so fundamental

00:18:22.840 And you know

00:18:23.680 We were having this chat

00:18:24.560 They do have like

00:18:25.540 Water power though

00:18:26.620 Right

00:18:26.780 There's the water wheel

00:18:27.700 Yeah

00:18:28.020 They've got

00:18:28.500 Cams and gears

00:18:30.080 Haven't they

00:18:31.000 I think they've

00:18:31.760 They've worked out

00:18:32.620 Gears

00:18:33.580 They haven't quite

00:18:34.340 Worked out cams

00:18:35.380 Cams is actually

00:18:36.260 But you could start with there

00:18:37.700 You could start with there

00:18:38.940 Go right

00:18:39.400 Make this

00:18:40.240 And we can pound stuff now

00:18:41.840 There's also fundamental things

00:18:43.220 Like

00:18:43.600 In the middle ages

00:18:45.080 They didn't know

00:18:46.040 That if you fill a cylinder

00:18:47.520 With steam

00:18:48.060 And then condense it

00:18:49.000 You form a vacuum

00:18:49.780 Okay

00:18:50.520 There are

00:18:51.140 There's certain like

00:18:52.180 Fundamental

00:18:53.300 Scientific principles

00:18:54.760 Which don't come along

00:18:55.700 Until the sort of

00:18:56.520 17th century

00:18:57.540 But you do know them

00:18:58.500 You right now

00:18:59.120 Today would

00:18:59.640 So you can immediately

00:19:00.500 Say to them

00:19:01.500 Yeah

00:19:01.720 You go right

00:19:02.420 This is a thing

00:19:03.220 That works

00:19:03.940 Yeah

00:19:04.220 I can do that

00:19:05.300 That would be the big thing

00:19:08.680 Really

00:19:08.880 And the also

00:19:09.740 Is the sort of

00:19:10.280 Social structure

00:19:11.760 You're going into

00:19:12.800 Where

00:19:16.580 If you're saying

00:19:19.300 Trying to kick off

00:19:20.040 An industrial revolution

00:19:20.860 The social mechanisms

00:19:23.100 To facilitate one

00:19:24.240 Aren't there

00:19:24.720 And it's one of the things

00:19:27.200 That students of the

00:19:28.640 Industrial revolution

00:19:29.320 And fans of it

00:19:30.060 Often overlook

00:19:31.240 Is that

00:19:32.200 The social setting

00:19:34.100 Came first

00:19:35.480 Right

00:19:36.140 And then the tech

00:19:37.300 Follows

00:19:37.880 It was like

00:19:38.240 They formed a society

00:19:39.620 In which the

00:19:40.340 Industrial revolution

00:19:41.580 Could happen

00:19:42.400 And then it did

00:19:44.400 Not the other way round

00:19:45.440 Yeah

00:19:45.680 So

00:19:47.080 But let's just say

00:19:48.980 Let's just say

00:19:49.560 That's a good point

00:19:50.360 It's a very very

00:19:50.960 Interesting point

00:19:51.480 But let's just say

00:19:52.140 You've got like

00:19:52.740 A really hard working

00:19:55.100 Cistercian monastery

00:19:57.260 Yes

00:19:57.760 With like

00:19:58.220 You've got

00:19:58.600 Two or three hundred

00:20:00.380 Guys

00:20:00.820 Who are prepared

00:20:01.260 To work really hard

00:20:02.080 All day long

00:20:02.700 At whatever

00:20:03.600 You direct them to do

00:20:04.760 Let's say that

00:20:05.900 I think

00:20:06.580 I think the monks

00:20:07.060 Would be worse

00:20:07.460 Than useless

00:20:07.800 Because they go

00:20:08.220 Well hard work

00:20:09.240 Is sent to us

00:20:09.880 By God

00:20:10.280 So we're not

00:20:10.700 Going to make it

00:20:11.140 Any easier

00:20:11.680 By having a

00:20:12.400 Steampunk mill

00:20:13.140 Or whatever

00:20:13.580 But you know

00:20:15.760 Artisan craftsmen

00:20:16.880 Yeah

00:20:18.440 You could get

00:20:19.300 A reasonably

00:20:20.380 Long way

00:20:21.660 In fact

00:20:21.940 On the way here

00:20:22.540 I was listening

00:20:23.080 To the

00:20:23.520 Fall of Civilisations

00:20:24.480 Podcast

00:20:25.160 Which one

00:20:26.640 I was listening

00:20:27.520 To the Mongols

00:20:28.280 Oh yeah

00:20:28.720 Yeah

00:20:29.040 Yeah

00:20:29.400 But they were

00:20:30.240 Talking about

00:20:30.740 A chap

00:20:31.940 And he was

00:20:32.600 A Frenchman

00:20:33.600 Who lived in

00:20:34.160 Karakorum

00:20:34.860 And this is

00:20:36.420 You know

00:20:36.640 The 1280s

00:20:37.640 Something like that

00:20:38.460 And he built

00:20:39.420 A fountain

00:20:40.640 Out of silver

00:20:42.440 And it had

00:20:43.660 It was in the

00:20:44.400 Shape of a tree

00:20:45.200 And there was a

00:20:46.120 Cherub on top

00:20:46.820 With a trumpet

00:20:47.400 And there was a

00:20:48.020 Chap inside

00:20:48.620 Who you know

00:20:49.240 When there was

00:20:49.660 Called for a

00:20:50.040 Round of drinks

00:20:50.500 But all the

00:20:51.820 Branches were

00:20:52.640 Straws

00:20:53.200 And then

00:20:53.560 Under it

00:20:54.400 Was you know

00:20:54.980 A vessel

00:20:56.340 Which caught

00:20:57.000 And one of the

00:20:57.880 Branches

00:20:58.260 Delivered wine

00:20:59.080 And one of them

00:20:59.600 Delivered

00:21:00.260 Arak

00:21:01.240 And one of them

00:21:01.780 So the

00:21:02.580 Craft skill

00:21:05.300 To make those

00:21:07.000 Sort of things

00:21:08.140 Existed in those

00:21:10.040 Times

00:21:10.460 But they were

00:21:11.380 Like individuals

00:21:12.920 And most of

00:21:14.440 That was

00:21:15.020 In service of

00:21:16.440 The church

00:21:16.960 Yeah

00:21:17.440 You know

00:21:18.100 You're sort of

00:21:18.880 Right at the

00:21:19.760 Very very

00:21:20.480 Beginnings

00:21:21.200 Of

00:21:21.880 Clocks

00:21:22.780 And

00:21:24.300 Clocks are

00:21:25.800 Actually the

00:21:26.300 Beginnings of

00:21:26.820 Mechanical engineering

00:21:27.640 Because it's

00:21:28.840 A clock

00:21:30.220 To be accurate

00:21:31.120 Is

00:21:31.940 You have to be

00:21:33.020 Precise

00:21:33.580 And you've got to

00:21:35.400 Understand gears

00:21:36.540 And relationships

00:21:37.100 And all the rest of it

00:21:37.820 So

00:21:38.060 They're the

00:21:39.500 Absolute

00:21:40.340 Absolute

00:21:41.840 Foundation

00:21:42.400 Of sort of

00:21:42.860 Precision manufacturing

00:21:43.760 Is clock making

00:21:44.440 And it always was

00:21:46.940 In fact

00:21:47.280 Arkwright

00:21:48.820 When he builds

00:21:49.380 The water frame

00:21:50.020 When he's building

00:21:50.540 His prototypes

00:21:51.080 He goes to

00:21:51.620 Local watchsmiths

00:21:52.600 Because they're

00:21:53.800 The only ones

00:21:54.320 Who can cut the

00:21:54.900 Gears accurately

00:21:55.680 Enough

00:21:56.140 To be put in

00:21:57.100 The water frame

00:21:57.720 So they do

00:22:00.420 Know things

00:22:01.320 Like this

00:22:01.860 In fact

00:22:02.760 Going back to

00:22:03.280 Classical antiquity

00:22:04.080 Will probably be

00:22:04.620 Easier

00:22:05.020 Because I'm sure

00:22:06.120 You know about

00:22:06.500 Things like

00:22:06.860 The Antikythera

00:22:08.720 Mechanism

00:22:09.200 Yeah

00:22:09.400 Right

00:22:09.600 Yeah

00:22:09.880 Yeah

00:22:10.500 I wrote an article

00:22:11.420 About

00:22:11.680 Which is a bit

00:22:12.520 Of a leap

00:22:13.400 But the fact

00:22:14.000 That the Greeks

00:22:14.780 Had that knowledge

00:22:15.820 Of how gears

00:22:17.000 Worked

00:22:17.540 Yeah

00:22:17.900 Would probably

00:22:18.760 Be easier

00:22:19.360 And you've got

00:22:20.300 Hero of Alexander

00:22:21.220 And all the rest

00:22:21.780 Of it

00:22:22.020 It's interesting

00:22:22.680 You mentioned

00:22:23.260 Clocks

00:22:23.940 Because yeah

00:22:24.420 Like even

00:22:24.860 Like the

00:22:25.280 Science of

00:22:26.380 Springs

00:22:27.160 Yeah

00:22:28.120 And things

00:22:28.700 Like I think

00:22:30.060 It was at

00:22:30.440 Nuremberg

00:22:31.260 They first

00:22:31.820 Made like

00:22:32.340 Some of the

00:22:32.820 First what we

00:22:33.940 Would think

00:22:34.240 Of as a

00:22:34.620 Pocket watch

00:22:35.560 Sort of

00:22:36.100 Precision

00:22:36.480 Kind of

00:22:37.280 Still handmade

00:22:38.200 Individual unique

00:22:39.360 Things but

00:22:39.900 Precision engineered

00:22:41.480 Time pieces

00:22:43.680 Basically

00:22:44.160 And we're talking

00:22:44.920 Even then

00:22:45.760 Is what

00:22:46.320 Like the

00:22:46.760 15th or

00:22:48.540 16th century

00:22:49.480 But like

00:22:50.700 It's Huygens

00:22:51.420 That comes up

00:22:51.920 With the idea

00:22:52.300 Of a pendulum

00:22:52.960 For example

00:22:53.700 Yeah

00:22:54.600 That's not

00:22:55.040 That long ago

00:22:56.500 We're talking

00:22:57.220 About how

00:22:57.700 It's funny

00:22:58.400 Or interesting

00:22:58.980 To think

00:22:59.380 About how

00:22:59.880 The tech

00:23:00.780 Tree

00:23:01.220 For human

00:23:02.360 Civilisation

00:23:02.900 Actually went

00:23:03.820 Yeah

00:23:04.360 So I gave you

00:23:05.500 The example

00:23:05.880 Of how

00:23:06.220 We built

00:23:06.940 Nukes

00:23:07.400 Before we

00:23:07.840 Came up

00:23:08.220 With fluoride

00:23:08.920 Toothpaste

00:23:09.500 Yeah

00:23:09.840 It's just

00:23:11.040 An odd thing

00:23:11.500 What's the

00:23:11.860 Example you

00:23:12.380 Came up

00:23:12.900 With

00:23:12.980 You said

00:23:13.300 One example

00:23:14.000 That was

00:23:14.260 Just an odd

00:23:14.680 Thing

00:23:14.780 You wouldn't

00:23:15.220 Think it

00:23:15.580 Would be

00:23:15.760 That way

00:23:16.120 Round

00:23:16.540 Or that

00:23:17.300 We made

00:23:17.960 Steam engines

00:23:18.540 Before we

00:23:19.040 Understood thermodynamics

00:23:20.100 Yeah

00:23:20.520 If you would

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The Podcast of the Lotus Eaters - May 04, 2025

PREVIEW： Epochs #209 ｜ The History of Steam with Alex Masters

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