PREVIEW： Epochs #260 ｜ The Life of Richard III
Episode Stats
Harmful content
Misogyny
3
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Toxicity
11
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Hate speech
3
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Summary
The story of the sudden death of the King of England, Edward V, and the mystery of who was really responsible for it, and why it might have been foul play, by which I mean who was responsible for the death of Edward V.
Transcript
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Hello and welcome back to Epochs. We're in the first studio today as you can see because the
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second studio had to be used for something else but we've done a fair few in this first studio.
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now we've got the bespoke video wall for epochs for just such an occasion so let's get straight
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back into it if you remember last time we left off the story where edward the fourth the great
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warrior king this son of york he just died out of the blue he was in sort of his 40s and he'd got
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let himself get corpulent he'd uh he lived a bit of a degenerate life and as often happened in the
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pre-modern age when there's not you know great doctors and no real medicines to speak of if you
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get ill and your body just doesn't fight it off that's it you die so people often died younger
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uh whether he had some sort of heart disease or we don't know a stroke or strokes anyway he went
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from being effectively perfectly fine to a few days later dead and it's a massive problem because
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the heir to the throne his eldest son his eldest legitimate son uh another edward edward the fifth
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is only like 12 years old in his minority as they say a boy king not old enough to rule in his own
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right sometimes there are examples of when someone not much older is able to take the reins i mean
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edward the fourth himself was only 18 years old when he was thrown into the maelstrom of events
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onto the stage of history and he was able to pick up the mantle and fight for himself and
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lead a faction and all that sort of thing at 18 you know like alexander the great was only 18
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or so 18 19 augustus was something like 17 or 18 or 19 years old william the conqueror was about 15
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years old when his father died he was just about had his own mind his own will and his own mind
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and the ability to bend other men to his will at the age of 15 that's remarkably young isn't it
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but 12 no it's too young he's still a child at 12 fully so of course it becomes a power struggle
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who's going to control that child because he is king legally he's king a coronation at
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Westminster Abbey when the Archbishop puts the crown on your head and you hold a scepter and orb
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that's only really a rubber stamping the moment the king dies the moment he's dead the next in
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line is the king immediately so when Edward V the 12 year old Edward V when his father died he is
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now the king the king of England this boy so it's immediately a power struggle who's going to control
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him and therefore control policy control government be the leader be the king in all but name at least
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for a few years until he grows up if he grows up which he doesn't i don't want to be too much of a
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spoiler alert however this is one of the most famous bits of english history really right it's
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up there with some of the most famous things the spanish armada anne berlin getting a head cut off
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harold godson getting an arrow in the eye this next bit it's the bit of the princes in the tower
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the two doomed princes because edward v has got a younger brother as well two boys
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one's 12 one's like 10 9 or 10 they go into the tower the tower of london and one way or another
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and we'll talk all about this in this episode one way or another come to a sticky end now this is a
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bit of history as i say so famous it's in shakespeare and everything it's been it's been poured
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over so much over the centuries it's been retold and retold and as i say one of those bits if it
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was a cassette tape it would be worn out by now the amount of people have gone over it and lots
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and lots of people got all different all different theories some crazy things some in my opinion some
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crazy theories about what might have actually happened i've got my own thoughts and feelings
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i'm going to be reading as always from professor sir charles oman a late 19th century early 20th
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century professor of history at oxford university as well as sir winston churchill in his history of
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the english-speaking peoples i've said a number of times i'm not a giant fan of churchill the
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politician i am a big fan of churchill the writer churchill the historian it's very good so two
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very very good sources here obviously both completely pre-woke we don't have to worry
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about any wokest revisionism and they tell the story ever so slightly differently and i'll throw
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in my thoughts and feelings and let you know what some of the other theories are as well
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just to let you know there's a question of whether there was foul play here there almost certainly
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was there must have been and if there was who's responsible exactly for it okay okay so let's
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pick up the story with we go should we start with oman or churchill let's start with let's start
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with omar all right he tells us this quote at the moment of his accession the young king was in
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shropshire in charge of his uncle he was the charge of his uncle not that he was in charge
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it's an old-fashioned early 20th century way of speaking his uncle was looking after him his uncle
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was the earl rivers so that's his maternal uncle the brother of his mother because what plays out
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And on his dad's side, he's got one remaining uncle.
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Remember, George, Duke of Clarence, had to be executed,
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Nonetheless, he's got one remaining uncle on his father's side,
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Edward IV's remaining younger brother, Richard.
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And this paternal uncle, Richard, Duke of Gloucester,
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He's actually fought in battles a number of times.
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he's a true warrior shakespeare and many other depictions have him as some sort of hunchback
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some sort of cripple he wasn't he almost certainly wasn't but he wasn't he was he was a badass he
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could lead armies he was a leader of men he had giant estates of his own a giant number of
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retainers and estates and money all of his own he'd inherited basically all the estates of warwick
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warwick the the kingmaker because he'd married warwick's one remaining heir a girl and um so
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now richard duke of gloucester even before any of this happens is arguably almost certainly the most
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powerful man in the country after the king himself and so now the king's gone basically he is in a
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couple of different ways in terms of money estates just actual de facto power power that he's already
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got firmly in his own hands ready to wield a moment's notice richard duke of york the young
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king's paternal uncle is the most powerful man in the country basically and think of it if for
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whatever reason this 12 year old brand new king edward v 12 year old edward v if for some reason
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he either is shown to be illegitimate or if he's dead and his younger brother would also need to
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be dead if that were to happen then Richard himself would be king he was next in line
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bear that in mind that's of absolute key importance to all of this and there were some question marks
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if you remember around Edward's marriage to Elizabeth Woodville it was done in secret
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maybe there's something there which isn't perfectly legitimate and above board so okay
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let's let Charles Oman continue the young king was in Shropshire with his maternal uncle the
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Earl Rivers a fact which put the Queen's party at a great advantage because everyone knew as soon
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as Edward the old Edward IV as soon as he dies everyone knows everyone knows there's going to
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be a power struggle over who controls this boy and a big chunk of that is who physically controls
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him who's actually physically got him in their castle or whatever in their country house who
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actually physically is controlling him okay so the fact that he's in the in the charge of the
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earl rivers is a great advantage to them rivers at once proceeded to bring his little nephew
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towards london for his coronation guarding him with a considerable armed force on their way
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edward the young edward and his cavalcade were encountered at stony stratford by richard of
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gloucester who had also brought with him a considerable body of retainers from his yorkshire
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estates so this is a sort of a classic moment in history at stony stratford the two uncles
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the earl rivers and richard duke of gloucester meet quite literally on the road and they've both
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They've both got what is effectively a very, very small army.
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Well, it's much less than that. It's not an army.
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They've both got a band of retainers, men at arms, soldiers, right?
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And they both want control, physical control of this 12-year-old boy
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The power struggle sort of immediately comes to a head,
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literally, physically, on the roadside at Stony Stratford.
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Oman says, the two parties met with profuse protestations of mutual friendship and esteem.
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You can only imagine that was all a phony, a fakery.
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Everyone knows what's really going on here.
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Both sides may well want to kill the other side if needs be.
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The Rivers and the Woodville family have been playing havoc with the York family
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okay they both pretended to have mutual friendship and esteem but when rivers's suspicions were lulled
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to sleep gloucester suddenly seized him flung him into fetters i.e chains and sent him as a prisoner
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to the north rivers's fate was shared by sir richard gray the little king's half-brother
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and several more of their party so as i say richard duke of gloucester plays for keeps right
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straight away a few a few smiles and almost immediately just backstabs the rivers puts
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him in chains taking takes him prisoner sends him a long way away power and policy and influence are
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at stake here if not the throne itself history beckons and richard is prepared to bet the
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highest of stakes everything on it and again it's one of those things if he failed he could richard
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could well expect that at some point down the road the nevels the woodvilles and the rivers
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might well imprison him and have him killed at some point he's a thorn in their side they're
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both the thorn in each other's side so richard takes the initiative here and as i say he's a
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warrior he has actually fought personally in a bunch of battles led whole wings in battles
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successfully he's no shrinking violet despite what some depictions might have of him
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oman continues saying gloucester that is richard then took charge of his nephew's person
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and brought him up to london where he summoned a parliament to meet the queen dowager that is
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elizabeth woodville on hearing that her brother rivers and her son richard gray were cast into
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prison knew that her chance of power was gone and hastily took sanctuary at westminster with
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her youngest son the little duke of york and her five daughters end quote so to say this elizabeth
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woodville if you remember when she first met edward the fourth they were both still young
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she already had been married and widowed already and had two sons by that previous marriage already
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right so they're now grown up that was many years ago right that was what knocking 20 years ago or
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15 odd years ago something like that and so those two boys are now men grown men from her first
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marriage and then on top of that she's got two more boys one is now king edward v and there's
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an heir there's a spare heir he's got a younger brother the duke of york still a boy he's only
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nine or ten and she's got five daughters by all by edward a fair few of them go on to be important
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i mean one of them elizabeth of york who's only a little girl here um she is eventually married
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to henry tudor henry the seventh and is the mother of henry the eighth grandmother of bloody
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mary and elizabeth the first good queen bess so even elizabeth woodfield's daughters are very
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important but of course her two sons legitimate sons by by edward the fourth are of key importance
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here but just remember she's got two other sons from way back when who are now grown men and you
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know they're important okay so she's had lots and lots of children elizabeth woodville and she
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realizes once uh richard duke of gloucester has got edward v her son physically he physically
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controls him um you know maybe already the power struggle is sort of over already the earl rivers
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has been chained up and sent away she realizes she can't physically stand up to richard there's
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no way she's going to lead men at arms against him or anything like that so she decides to as
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it says there take sanctuary in westminster be westminster abbey and fall back on the hope
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that she just won't be imprisoned or killed there's this thing from the 15th century and
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before and a little bit afterwards but in the 15th century the idea that if particularly as well
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women and children particularly women and children if you go into a holy place a church an abbey a
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cathedral anything like that that it's not only against the law but sort of deeply deeply
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dishonorable to storm in there as a soldier with drawn sword and do any sort of act of violence in
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any possible way now that's only a convention really you can't rely on that people did try to
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i mean that's it's like a last ditch hope a last ditch attempt if you've got someone who's
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inscrutable someone who's shameless they won't pay attention to that they'll just send soldiers
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in there and come and drag you out if they've got any sort of sense of propriety and honor
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they wouldn't okay so she's just hoping that richard duke of york uh will sort of respect
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that convention that you don't just go into uh an abbey and arrest women and children and drag
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them out against their will but hopefully she'll be safe again just by convention so that's what
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she does it is a bit of a last ditch hope against hope she's got her five daughters and the and the
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king king edward v younger brother with her and an entourage for a few other people okay okay omar
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goes on saying this the nation was not displeased to learn that the regency would fall into the
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hands of duke richard who was known as a good soldier and had served his brother very faithfully
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it the country much preferred him to the queen and her relatives who had a bad reputation for
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greed and arrogance but it soon became evident that there was something more in the air than a
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mere transference of the regency i.e was richard duke of york the paternal uncle was he merely
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looking to act as regent on behalf of the child king edward v or was there something more more
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to that does he not want the crown for himself as i say if those two boys are somehow shown to
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be illegitimate or they're dead then he's the king it's just a couple of heartbeats between him and
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the throne so okay quite quickly it becomes clear that perhaps that's his design oman continues
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saying gloucester richard duke of gloucester not only filled all the places about the king with his
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own friends but commenced to pack london with great bodies of armed men raised on his own estates
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a precaution quite unnecessary when all his enemies were crushed he also made the council
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of regency confer gifts of money land and offices on a most unprecedented scale upon his two chief
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confidants henry duke of buckingham and john lord howard become important in this story they were
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evidently being brought for some secret purpose gloucester and his nephew the king had been in
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London more than a month and the day of the young king's coronation was at hand when suddenly Duke
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Richard showed his real intentions by a sharp and bloody stroke. On the 13th of June the Privy
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Council was meeting in the Tower of London on business of no great importance and the Duke
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showed himself smooth and affable as was his want. After a space he withdrew but ere long returned
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with a change of countenance and an aspect of gloom and anger what shall be done he suddenly
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asked to them that compass the destruction of me being so near of blood to the king and protector
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of his realm those are supposed to have been richard's actual words omar continues saying
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he was answered by lord hastings the late king's best friend edward the fourth best friend a man
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of great courage and experience who had shared in the victories of Barnet and Tewkesbury and had
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held the highest offices ever since and this is what Lord Hastings is supposed to have said
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they are worthy of death whoever they may be then Gloucester burst out saying it is my brother's
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wife and bearing his left arm which all men knew to be somewhat deformed since his earliest years
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he cried look what yonder sorceress and shore's wife that was her original husband she had those
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two children with he's calling her a sorcerer and reminding everyone that she was married before
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edward look what yonder sorceress and shore's wife and those who are of their council have done
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unto me with their witchcrafts everyone goes on hastings started at the mention of shore's wife
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for Jane Shaw was his own mistress and an accusation of witchcraft against her touched him
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nearly if they have so done my lord he faltered they are worthy of heinous punishment thou me
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with ifs replied Duke Richard I tell thee they have done it and that I will prove upon thy body
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thou traitor Oman again then he smote upon the table and armed men whom he had posted without
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rushed into the council chamber. Richard bade them seize Hastings, Lord Stanley, the Archbishop of
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York and the Bishop of Ely, all firm and loyal friends of Edward IV. Hastings was borne out to
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the court of the tower and beheaded there and there. The others were placed in bonds. This
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sudden blow at the young king's most faithful adherents dismayed the whole city, but Gloucester
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hastened to give out that he had detected Hastings and his friends in a plot against his life and as
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he had hitherto been always esteemed a loyal and upright prince his words were half believed
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okay so let's just take account of what happened there even though Richard Duke of York is the
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closest kin in blood to the young 12 year old Edward V there is also another a whole group of
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adherents a party around the young king mostly edward the fourth his father's closest friends
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who all would have just de facto just immediately without question transferred their allegiance over
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to the boy king and hope they would all be powerful in any new sort of regency wait for
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him to grow up bring him up they would all protect him with their life etc etc well richard now
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nominally all in the same party richards now denounced them anyone that would have protected
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little edward v he's attacked them and removed them from the heart of government and power
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and told the world told london that they were plotting against him were they really i mean
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did he did richard just make all this all of this up because it's all part of his power grab
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or were they really we don't know i suspect not i suspect richard sort of fabricated it all
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so that he can have a reason to grab power lots of people disagree everywhere every possible
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theory every possible shade of gray in this has been espoused along the way i've got quite a dim
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view of richard myself i think he was just a cynical man a soldier a rich and powerful man
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that wanted more riches and more power i've always sort of seen it that way somehow some
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paint richard as having done nothing wrong many many do many revisionists suggest richard is the
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victim in all of this one way or another things like that incident there genuinely was a plot
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against his life he was only just trying to protect his own life he didn't do anything wrong
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many other histories most other histories it's the one i go with is that no he knew that it was
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only a small number of steps he would have to take albeit terrible ones and then he can be king
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that's the thing i think that's the thing i have always believed it's the thing that i think most
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serious historians it's the most likely thing isn't it isn't it i mean you make your own mind
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up that it's the way of history certainly in the pre-modern era that um rich and powerful and
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violent men often when they get very very close to power and reach out for it and you might have
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to kill murder a small number of people murder even someone in your own family murder your own
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father murder your own brother yeah murder loads of your own brothers perhaps right yeah murder
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your nephew yeah yeah totally possible not beyond the realms of possibility for a man like
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richard that's what i believe but there's loads of other ways of looking at i mean for example
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there's the there's the novels and tv adaptation the white queen by philippa gregory philippa
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gregory's written lots and lots of historical fiction she has it she's got a bit of a revisionist
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view or a different view that richard didn't really there's some sort of comedy of errors
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there's some sort of mistaken communication which leads to these princes being in the tower
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and then being dead that richard never meant to do it it was sort of an accident and he was really
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cut up about it and it was uh i'll say some sort of comedy of errors i just i i don't believe that
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again the sources for the 15th century are quite scant you might think oh we know loads about this
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it's documented with lots and lots of different chroniclers and we've got lots and lots of people
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that wrote letters from the time and no no the evidence is quite scant we don't know exactly
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day to day hour to hour who was where and who said what to whom and on and on no loads of it is
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shrouded in in darkness and so you know that sort of thing does lead to dozens hundreds of different
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theories about how it all really played out how it all really went down you know we've got a few
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data points that seem to be firm history or are firm history you know that he met the earl rivers
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at stony stratford took control of the king took him to london put him in the tower of london for
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his own safekeeping not in a cell not in not just like a straw covered floor cell with bars on the
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windows put him up in nice surroundings basically under house arrest in a in a in a nice castle
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effectively but he's under arrest he's not allowed to leave the castle if without richard say so so
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he's his prisoner all these things are historical fact right but as i say the exact nature who said
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what to whom if there was a conspiracy with between richard and buckingham and lord howard
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how exactly what exactly that was we don't know if hastings and others the bishop of ely and the
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arch archer archbishop of york lord stanley whether they all the details exactly what they
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may or may not have done exactly for real firm history undisputed we don't know we don't know
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so if you want to you can infer suggest all sorts of things okay i'll let omar continue he says this
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richard's real object was to free himself from men whom he knew to be faithful to the young king
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and unlikely to join in the dark plot which he was hatching he next went with a great armed
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following to westminster where lay the queen dowager the young king's mother elizabeth woodville
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the white queen and her children surrounding the sanctuary with guards and then threatening to
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break in if he was resisted he sent archbishop birch here the aged archbishop of canterbury
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to persuade elizabeth to give up her young son richard of york the the two boys because if
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Richard is Richard, Duke of Gloucester, is to become king.
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Not only does Edward V, the 12-year-old, need to die, but also his younger brother, the two princes in the tower.
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Half in terror, half persuaded by the smooth prelate who pledged his word that no harm should befall the boy,
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Richard at once sent him to join his brother in the tower, and that was on the 16th of June.
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1483 by the way we're in the year 1483 here so richard argues that it's for the best uh you know
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other people other factions if they got their hands on that young duke of york king edward
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v's younger brother he would be in danger the the safest place for him to be is in uncle richard's
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charge the safest place for him could possibly be is in the tower of london with his older brother
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and having crushed his brother's faithful friends
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This was the meaning of the gifts that he had been showering around and of the masses of armed men that he had gathered.
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His chaplain doctor, Shaw, was sent up to preach to the people at St Paul's Cross,
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a marvellous sermon in which he argued that Richard was the rightful king,
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though both Edward IV and Clarence, his two elder brothers, had left sons behind them.
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the londoners were told to their great surprise that the late king's marriage with elizabeth
00:28:47.940
woodville had been invalid not only had they been secretly and unlawfully married in an
00:28:54.180
unconsecrated place not in a church the marriage didn't count therefore the boys are illegitimate
00:28:59.740
but edward had been betrothed long before to lady eleanor talbot the daughter of the earl of
00:29:05.560
shrewsbury he had never been given any clerical dispensation from this bond and therefore he
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00:29:11.100
was not free to wed and his sons were bastards as to clarence he had been attainted and the blood
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00:29:18.580
of his heir was corrupted by his father's attainder therefore richard is the legit king
00:29:24.320
oman says the londoners were astonished at this strange argument and kept silence and so
00:29:30.860
disappointed gloucester who had come to the sermon in hopes to meet an enthusiastic reception
00:29:36.460
yeah that's a classic thing Richard had hoped the crowds would cheer and whoop when they heard the
00:29:43.340
news that in fact he Richard was king now he'd hoped he'd hoped it would go down well it didn't
00:29:49.440
people were sort of aghast you know they've been living with Edward IV and his wife Elizabeth
00:29:55.540
Woodfield for many many many years now and everyone had accepted that Edward IV and his
00:30:01.660
marriage were legitimate and his children by Elizabeth Woodfield the White Queen were legitimate
00:30:06.260
until this moment until that moment everyone including richard had been like yeah the 12
00:30:12.480
year old edward v is king and but now suddenly just one day in london no no that's not the case
00:30:18.840
no and so yeah the normal people of london are just like wait what wait what just happened
00:30:24.520
you're saying the king isn't the king but you are wait you've just completely deposed your own
00:30:30.780
nephew and wait he's you've got him in the tower of london sorry wait what's going on here where
00:30:35.920
it now right yeah it didn't go down well it did not go down well so the common folk the londoners
00:30:41.600
don't like it oman continues saying but two days later a stranger scene was enacted at the guild
00:30:47.820
hall the duke of buckingham costa's chief confidant summoned together the mayor and council of london
00:30:54.420
and repeating all the arguments that dr shore had argued bade them salute richard as king a few
00:31:00.640
Very timid voices shouted approval and then Buckingham declared that he recognised the
00:31:11.040
Next day they met the Parliament which should have witnessed the coronation of Edward V.
00:31:18.080
They were summoned to St Paul's where Buckingham presented to them a long document setting
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00:31:22.860
forth the evil government of Edward IV, denouncing his sons as bastards and ending with a petition
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00:31:29.500
to richard duke of gloucester to take upon him as his right the title and estate of king
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00:31:36.240
it's a coup d'etat it basically is i mean that's what i think that's what most historians think
00:31:40.840
you know some people will argue no that's perfectly right the arguments richard put
00:31:44.600
forward are just true edward the fourth's marriage to elizabeth woodville was illegitimate
00:31:49.620
therefore those boys are illegitimate and clarence's sons because of the attainder so
00:31:54.820
richard's just genuinely claiming his right there's nothing more to it than that most people
00:32:00.800
see this as a usurpation and a coup d'etat a seizure of power among the lords and commons
00:32:07.240
yielded their silent assent apparently without a word of discussion or argument and buckingham
00:32:13.920
then led a deputation to duke richard who with much feigned reluctance assented to the petition
00:32:21.600
and declared himself king remember you might ask why did the lords and the parliament just
00:32:27.200
not say anything just all keep completely silent well richard is the most powerful man in the
00:32:33.140
country we're still just just out of the wars of the roses really still the 15th century it's
00:32:40.060
richard who controls the army controls men at arms he wants to lock you up and i'll just have
00:32:45.460
you killed he can do that and you can't so it's a little bit of might is right isn't it's a little
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00:32:51.160
bit of what you're going to do about it i'm i'm stealing power here and you can't stop me so you
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00:32:58.220
really physically can't so you may as well just keep your head down you may as well keep quiet
00:33:02.840
you might not like it don't even pretend to like it but it's happening and uh yeah richard feigns
00:33:10.620
reluctance that's interesting classic thing that's an ancient thing even going back to sort of well
00:33:15.880
the classic example is augustus octavian very very very often over many many years over 40 odd years
00:33:22.400
he would be offered more and more grand titles and offices and you you always refuse them a few
00:33:31.120
times no i'm not worthy of that no no no please come on you do me too much justice uh i'm not
00:33:37.300
worthy uh surely you don't mean me but then quite quickly actually say uh okay i'll take it all right
00:33:47.640
The only excuse for this lamentable weakness shown by the houses,
00:33:54.420
is that they were quite unprepared for the coup d'etat
00:33:56.860
and were overawed by the thousands of men at arms
00:34:00.300
in the livery of Gloucester and Buckingham who packed every street.
00:34:09.800
It's like, what, you're going to make them kill you for what purpose?
00:34:13.280
it's still going to happen anyway in fact it's already happened really you haven't really got
00:34:17.560
any choice but to just accept it keep quiet so richard was crowned with great pomp if with little
00:34:24.780
rejoicing and thought that he had attained the summit of his desires but his position was from
00:34:32.120
the first radically unsound that's a great antiquated way of saying it his position was
00:34:38.820
radically unsound. He had seized the throne so easily because his antecedents had not prepared
00:34:45.520
men for such sudden and unscrupulous action, so that there had been no time to organise any
00:34:52.080
opposition to him. But the pious and modest duke had suddenly blossomed forth into a bloodthirsty
00:34:58.380
tyrant. On the very day of his accession, he had the unfortunate rivers and grey beheaded at
00:35:05.140
pontefract and six weeks later he wrote a much darker deed remember these are the the family
00:35:11.980
the maternal family of king edward the 12 year old and the closest people to elizabeth woodville
00:35:18.560
and what is that much darker deed that omar's talking about well he says quote after starting
00:35:25.140
on a festal progress through the midlands he sent back a secret mandate to london authorizing the
00:35:31.800
murder of his little nephews, Edward and Richard. They were smothered at dead of night in their
00:35:38.180
prison in the tower, and secretly buried by their assassins. Their graves were never discovered
00:35:44.440
until 1674, when masons repairing the building came upon the bones of two young boys thrust
00:35:51.700
away under a staircase. The murder took place between the 7th and 14th of August, 1483.
00:35:58.920
but its manner and details were never certainly known end quote so again to mention all different
00:36:07.500
people all through the centuries have had all different ideas of exactly what happened
00:36:11.160
so let's dwell on this for a moment what we can say for sure what's definite definite the small
00:36:18.060
amount of definite history we've got here okay what that definite history is very little of it
00:36:24.960
we've got is that they seem these two boys were seen in the tower of london again they're sort of
00:36:31.440
treated as uh you know guests they're not imprisoned in a cell they're allowed to sort
00:36:35.560
of walk around and run around and play around in the courtyard and things at some point before the
00:36:41.800
7th of august 1483 they were seen by people alive some point after that perhaps as late as the 14th
00:36:49.320
august they were never seen again at all dead or alive they disappeared right that's kind of it
00:36:56.800
that's kind of all we've got as firm 100 fact they were never seen again okay so some say
00:37:07.280
they escaped some say they were broken out of prison they were rescued and they went on to
00:37:13.520
grow up like years later you've got people saying uh i'm actually edward v or i'm actually the duke
00:37:20.260
of york the younger duke of york not believed no one really believes that was true in any way but
00:37:24.960
maybe they escaped and went on to live or they were killed okay it's almost certainly almost
00:37:32.820
certain you know in my mind it's 100 but i think in most serious people's minds it's 99 to 100
00:37:40.400
they were killed so okay let's assume that is the case i mean come on it is the case who killed them
00:37:47.520
okay some people say it wasn't richard there's a whole number of people that may have wanted to
00:37:52.680
please richard that's how that's sort of how philippa gregory paints the story that there
00:37:57.720
were other people that knew that it was in richard's interest to have them dead now so they
00:38:02.400
just did it hoping to be praised you know like for example the way the egyptians killed pompey
00:38:09.480
pompey magnus pompey the great thinking that it's what caesar would want they would be greatly
00:38:14.440
rewarded if they did that so they just did it some have argued that perhaps they were uh died
00:38:21.000
of natural causes yeah come on almost certainly not okay so they disappeared the person that
00:38:27.560
benefited most from it obviously is their uncle richard because now there's no way that his
00:38:36.680
usurpation his coup d'etat uh won't be successful there's no one for a an enemy faction to
00:38:44.120
galvanize around you know he might have feared that other people would at some point in the future
00:38:50.840
disavow him richard and say no come on look the legit king is is the boy edward v will end up
00:38:56.680
having battles with you over it if needs be but if he's dead the story's over right so to me
00:39:03.000
and to most histories other than sort of later 20th century revisionist histories
00:39:09.060
say richard had them killed well but possibly not who knows all we know is that at some point in
00:39:17.480
august 1483 they disappeared from sight never to be seen again okay and as omar says there
00:39:26.680
a couple of little bodies were found nearly two centuries later which were their bodies so they
00:39:32.500
were killed they were murdered right um the only other thing is to argue about exactly how they
00:39:38.060
were killed whether they were smothered we've got no idea whether their throats were cut no idea
00:39:42.500
we really don't know that anyone that says they know that is uh stretching it we really don't
00:39:49.060
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