The Podcast of the Lotus Eaters - PREVIEW： Realpolitik #9 ｜ The UK Is Unrecognisable with Peter McCormack

00:00:00.000 Hello, and welcome to another episode of RealPolitik.

00:00:02.940 I am your host, Firas Badad.

00:00:04.940 Joining me today is Peter McCormack,

00:00:07.760 who I wanted to invite on the show,

00:00:10.480 firstly, as a thank you,

00:00:11.580 and secondly, because I really wanted to get his views

00:00:14.720 on British politics.

00:00:16.360 He's been talking to a lot of extremely interesting people,

00:00:20.200 Rupert Lowe, Zia Youssef, Liz Truss,

00:00:23.800 and a big bunch of others,

00:00:25.260 and I think that he's got a lot of interesting ideas

00:00:28.880 that I want to chat with him about.

00:00:30.640 Thank you so much for joining.

00:00:31.780 Thank you for coming.

00:00:33.820 On a personal note,

00:00:35.660 I'm sitting here because of the first interview I did with you.

00:00:39.180 Yeah, the tables have turned.

00:00:41.280 The tables have turned.

00:00:42.240 It led to a chain of events that ended up with me

00:00:45.080 joining the Lotus Eaters and doing this show with them,

00:00:49.780 and this was largely because of me meeting you,

00:00:53.380 which was really out of your own kindness.

00:00:55.720 You made a bet that it helped me a lot.

00:00:57.500 Well, actually, it came from a very good tweet.

00:01:00.440 Yes, yes.

00:01:01.500 It came from an insult to Alistair Campbell,

00:01:04.620 who I'm trying to pray for regularly these days.

00:01:08.400 I still insult him now and then,

00:01:10.200 but when you've set up your own entire politics

00:01:14.300 to be a human punching bag,

00:01:15.560 it's difficult to resist sometimes,

00:01:16.980 and I do fall for that temptation.

00:01:19.140 But how are you doing?

00:01:20.960 Yeah, look, I'm doing good.

00:01:21.920 I don't usually go this side of the conversation.

00:01:25.440 I'm not always comfortable being the guest

00:01:28.900 for people who don't know I host a podcast.

00:01:31.060 Yes.

00:01:32.040 I'm not really an expert on anything.

00:01:33.740 I'm just a father and a business owner

00:01:36.580 and a concerned voter.

00:01:39.360 Yes.

00:01:39.580 And I like to interview smart people

00:01:43.900 and try and understand what's happening in the world.

00:01:46.380 So to go on the other side,

00:01:47.740 just to prepare your audience,

00:01:49.360 I'm not an expert in anything,

00:01:50.880 but I do have opinions.

00:01:52.820 You do have a lot of experience.

00:01:54.460 I mean, look,

00:01:55.000 I am a parent with two children

00:01:58.960 who are at different stages of their life,

00:02:01.720 and one is in the workforce,

00:02:03.960 one is in later education,

00:02:05.900 and I am very concerned about the state of our country

00:02:09.040 and the wider world.

00:02:10.480 Yes.

00:02:10.760 But very concerned about the state of our country,

00:02:12.400 and I also am a business operator.

00:02:14.260 I have five businesses,

00:02:15.680 and I am seeing the impact on those businesses

00:02:19.100 from the policies that have come from successive governments now,

00:02:23.140 and just also as a citizen of this country

00:02:26.520 and a citizen of Bedford, where I'm from,

00:02:29.560 I'm seeing the economic and moral decline of our country.

00:02:32.800 So I've got strong opinions.

00:02:35.100 They don't necessarily come from an intellectual background,

00:02:39.580 but more just from life experiences.

00:02:41.840 Look, I found that opinions that come from experience

00:02:45.480 are often better than opinions that come from books.

00:02:48.000 Maybe.

00:02:48.680 So I brought a book with me.

00:02:50.700 I brought my current reading,

00:02:51.800 which is The Fatal Conceit,

00:02:53.800 which-

00:02:54.480 What's that about?

00:02:55.360 It's a Hayek book on the eras of socialism.

00:02:58.220 Wow.

00:02:59.180 And I thought I'd bring that with me

00:03:00.700 because that's probably going to be like a basis

00:03:04.180 for some of the things we're going to talk about today.

00:03:06.440 Yes, yes.

00:03:07.440 I'm reading a lot at the moment,

00:03:08.500 just trying to make sense of-

00:03:10.520 Yeah, can I swear here?

00:03:12.540 Preferably don't, but-

00:03:13.560 Okay.

00:03:14.260 The absolute state of our country.

00:03:18.220 Yes.

00:03:18.460 The absolute state of politics,

00:03:23.020 the terrible representation we have in government.

00:03:25.200 Yes. 1.00

00:03:26.560 What I see is really a bunch of morons. 1.00

00:03:29.420 I wouldn't offer a job in any business I operate. 1.00

00:03:32.340 Yes.

00:03:32.560 who are presiding over a collapsing economy

00:03:35.760 and just a collapsing moral foundation in this country.

00:03:38.620 So, yeah, we have a lot to talk about.

00:03:41.380 We do.

00:03:42.000 We do.

00:03:42.660 Let's start a little bit with Bedford.

00:03:44.540 Yes.

00:03:44.780 We've been trying to get the police in Bedford

00:03:47.160 to actually do their job.

00:03:48.600 Yeah.

00:03:48.840 How's that been going?

00:03:50.760 So, let's give a background to it.

00:03:52.160 So, I have a podcast, as mentioned,

00:03:54.360 and I made that for the last seven and a half years in America.

00:03:58.020 So, I travel out every six weeks

00:03:59.300 and go and make a bunch of shows and come back.

00:04:01.880 And so, I would kind of be flying in and out of Bedford

00:04:04.340 and I didn't spend too much time in the town center

00:04:07.240 and wasn't really aware of the issues.

00:04:10.260 But I bought a football club three and a half years ago

00:04:13.620 with the goal of trying to get a team into the football league.

00:04:16.580 And with that, I opened a cafe in the town

00:04:18.620 that supports the team and I bought a bar

00:04:20.540 and I gradually got involved in the local economics of Bedford.

00:04:25.540 And by being in the town center,

00:04:26.920 I became very alarmed at the combination of factors,

00:04:32.940 but generally the economic and moral collapse of the town.

00:04:37.580 I mean, we have a significant problem of addiction in the town center.

00:04:42.160 We have crackheads roaming the streets of Bedford,

00:04:45.960 getting high on the main high street

00:04:49.520 or just off the main high street,

00:04:51.760 openly buying drugs, which I've seen,

00:04:54.880 in between fixes, roaming through the streets of the town

00:04:59.360 and shoplifting.

00:05:01.540 That can be anything from the local Tesco

00:05:04.080 to the charity shops because I followed them

00:05:07.120 and watched them doing it.

00:05:08.680 And I've seen issues of alcohol consumption.

00:05:12.040 We have a PSPO order in the town

00:05:13.440 that says no alcohol consumption in the town.

00:05:16.020 At the top of our high street, there's a green area.

00:05:19.140 Every day there'll be 20 to 50 people

00:05:21.340 drinking all day long,

00:05:23.920 fighting, yelling at each other,

00:05:26.260 vomiting, collapsing,

00:05:28.440 and being picked up by the ambulances.

00:05:29.740 And so we have this range of issues in the town

00:05:32.300 which has led to people not coming into the town.

00:05:36.280 Yes.

00:05:36.880 So I know that factually.

00:05:38.220 I speak to the locals.

00:05:40.660 I speak to friends,

00:05:42.020 especially women with children

00:05:43.200 do not want to come into the town.

00:05:44.780 Yeah.

00:05:45.020 They feel it's unsafe.

00:05:45.760 And so this sets this kind of terminal decline

00:05:49.380 in place where if people aren't coming into town,

00:05:52.000 the economic activity is shrinking.

00:05:54.120 If the economic activity is shrinking,

00:05:55.940 shops are closing.

00:05:57.040 If shops are closing,

00:05:57.960 there's no reason to come into the town.

00:05:59.380 So I've seen all of this

00:06:00.840 and I've been trying to research

00:06:02.220 how you reverse this.

00:06:04.140 Yeah.

00:06:04.280 How do you change the situation in the town?

00:06:08.400 And the starting point is

00:06:09.520 is that it has to be safe.

00:06:11.200 The town center has to be safe.

00:06:13.620 And it's not.

00:06:14.580 And the police aren't doing their job.

00:06:16.420 I wrote a letter in the local paper

00:06:19.200 where I put the police on notice

00:06:20.700 and said if they do not start enforcing the law

00:06:25.000 in the town center,

00:06:25.760 protecting the business owners

00:06:28.220 and the citizens who are out shopping

00:06:30.520 that I would do it myself.

00:06:32.720 And so there was an immediate reaction

00:06:36.600 within two days,

00:06:38.260 maybe even the next day,

00:06:39.220 the police were on the streets.

00:06:40.600 Really?

00:06:41.100 Yeah, yeah.

00:06:41.520 Keep an order.

00:06:44.860 Ensuring that the rule of law was being obeyed.

00:06:47.400 Did they do something about the group

00:06:48.840 at the top of the street that would...

00:06:50.680 Because I suspect that it's always

00:06:52.520 the same group of people.

00:06:53.940 No, it is.

00:06:54.420 It is.

00:06:54.840 It is.

00:06:55.240 And look, this isn't that I don't have sympathy

00:06:56.740 for addiction issues.

00:06:57.840 I don't want anyone to be confused.

00:06:59.860 But at the same time,

00:07:02.880 I don't think we can have this suicidal empathy.

00:07:06.520 And I don't think we can just let these things

00:07:09.480 just fester.

00:07:10.780 Because it becomes like a gangrene of the town.

00:07:13.680 It becomes a poison of the town.

00:07:15.580 And parts of the town start to die.

00:07:17.360 On that particular day,

00:07:18.460 I can't tell you what they did.

00:07:20.120 But there was a police presence in the town.

00:07:23.720 And there was once more about a week later.

00:07:26.460 And then again, I've not seen the police since.

00:07:28.340 I went to meet the commissioner.

00:07:30.760 Right.

00:07:30.920 A very weak individual.

00:07:32.280 I happen to say that publicly.

00:07:34.060 John Tizard. 0.85

00:07:35.300 A very weak individual.

00:07:38.620 Politically aligned to the Labour Party.

00:07:41.840 And did not recognize the issues of the town

00:07:44.980 to the extent that he was going to do anything

00:07:48.700 that would make a difference.

00:07:50.120 So the police are ineffective in the town.

00:07:52.380 Right.

00:07:52.660 And so for me,

00:07:53.400 the only solution,

00:07:54.260 if they continue to be effective,

00:07:55.580 is we could have some kind of,

00:07:58.540 I don't know,

00:07:58.940 some direct action.

00:08:00.180 Businesses could refuse to pay their business rates.

00:08:03.120 Yes.

00:08:03.360 It would probably fail as a policy.

00:08:05.300 But I still would be interested in trying it.

00:08:07.820 Because why should we pay business rates

00:08:10.180 for enforcement of the law that's not happening?

00:08:12.740 Right.

00:08:12.920 I mean,

00:08:13.140 that's a dereliction of duty.

00:08:14.260 And sorry,

00:08:15.300 we have,

00:08:15.920 some of our audience is American-based

00:08:17.860 and is not British.

00:08:18.740 Okay.

00:08:20.320 Business rates are,

00:08:21.740 you basically have to pay 50% of your rent.

00:08:24.720 It's racketeering.

00:08:25.680 It's racketeering.

00:08:26.460 It's racketeering.

00:08:27.120 Yes.

00:08:27.320 So it's an additional tax to operate a premises.

00:08:30.740 Yes.

00:08:31.180 You must pay 50% of your rent

00:08:33.660 as an additional extra tax to the,

00:08:37.800 does it go to the council

00:08:38.600 or does it go to the,

00:08:39.660 to HMG directly?

00:08:41.700 So I think it goes directly to the council,

00:08:45.040 but it is a statutory tax

00:08:47.080 that the central government requires

00:08:50.360 that local councils enforce.

00:08:53.720 Now there are some,

00:08:55.740 you know,

00:08:56.220 if you're a charity,

00:08:57.560 I don't believe you have to pay it

00:08:58.580 and there might be a restriction on that.

00:08:59.920 Charities don't have to pay it. 0.83

00:09:01.420 I don't know if it's for,

00:09:02.600 if it's like a permanent charitable status

00:09:04.980 where there's like a time restriction on it.

00:09:07.480 But if you see charity shops

00:09:09.080 up and down a high street,

00:09:10.100 it's because the economics of them is different.

00:09:12.180 Yes.

00:09:12.940 They often have voluntary staff

00:09:14.580 and they have zero business rates.

00:09:18.760 So my cafe,

00:09:19.700 16 and a half thousand pound a year,

00:09:21.540 represents probably about 10%

00:09:23.600 of our income for the first year.

00:09:25.220 Right.

00:09:25.380 And it's a tax you pay

00:09:26.500 before you operate the business.

00:09:29.580 And so it's not like a tax on profits.

00:09:33.660 Yeah.

00:09:33.780 And so it is racketeering

00:09:35.200 and we are meant to be supplied

00:09:37.560 with certain services in return.

00:09:39.660 And we are not being supplied

00:09:41.300 with those services,

00:09:42.040 but also it's a distortion of the market.

00:09:45.000 It's distorting what a town center

00:09:46.920 could and should be,

00:09:48.100 which is a zone of economic interest,

00:09:50.420 which drives the kind of cultural

00:09:53.320 and economic activity of the town.

00:09:56.500 It should be this hub of civic pride.

00:09:59.980 It should be this hub of social connections.

00:10:02.880 But really it is a distortion in the market,

00:10:05.200 which reduces the number of businesses

00:10:07.000 that would exist.

00:10:08.060 Yeah.

00:10:08.160 For example, like a florist.

00:10:09.480 There was a florist that went recently.

00:10:11.200 I wonder if that florist would have survived

00:10:13.240 if there's no business rates.

00:10:14.660 Yes.

00:10:15.720 Yes.

00:10:16.020 Because it would have made a big,

00:10:17.480 you know, 10% of your business

00:10:19.680 being taken by the government

00:10:21.180 makes a serious dent in your profit margin.

00:10:24.600 It could be a salary.

00:10:25.580 Yes.

00:10:26.180 Yeah.

00:10:26.380 Exactly.

00:10:27.440 Yeah.

00:10:27.700 So look, they are, they're weak.

00:10:30.360 The police are not,

00:10:32.460 well, the council are not enforcing the PSP orders

00:10:34.860 and the police are not enforcing the law.

00:10:37.460 As such, Bedford, like towns up and down the UK,

00:10:40.880 I know it's not the only one.

00:10:41.980 Yeah.

00:10:42.120 When I tweeted out my letter in the local paper,

00:10:45.980 that went, there were a lot of people replying

00:10:48.000 saying, oh, it's the same here.

00:10:48.960 I'm in Hull or I'm in Scumthorpe or wherever.

00:10:51.260 Up and down the country, people were replying

00:10:52.940 saying, it's exactly the same here.

00:10:54.420 And it is.

00:10:55.140 Yes.

00:10:55.460 It is a problem that has infected our towns

00:10:58.440 up and down the country.

00:10:59.440 And this seems to be a political choice by the police.

00:11:03.240 I'm not sure if it's a political choice.

00:11:06.020 I think it's probably a resource issue.

00:11:09.580 Right.

00:11:09.740 And, you know, policing is a complex issue.

00:11:13.360 They have a range of things to deal with from,

00:11:15.920 I mean, we have a massive increase in knife and gun crime.

00:11:19.300 They have to deal with that.

00:11:20.660 Organized crime, county lines, abusive families, social issues.

00:11:26.140 I'm in no doubt that the police are absolutely stretched.

00:11:30.020 And when they look at their priorities,

00:11:31.460 they think open drug dealing and smoking of crack

00:11:35.140 and shoplifting as minor compared to some of the other issues

00:11:39.300 they're dealing with.

00:11:40.620 And maybe they are right, but at the same time,

00:11:44.140 that is causing the terminal decline of the town.

00:11:46.900 Yeah.

00:11:47.800 I mean, I think if you look at the number of crimes that are solved,

00:11:53.700 you see that the figures are absolutely atrocious.

00:11:56.580 And I think you see that some police forces can't solve something like 70% of burglaries,

00:12:03.880 80% of burglaries, anything like that?

00:12:06.500 Yeah.

00:12:06.760 I mean, do they have the resources to do it?

00:12:08.980 Do they have the time to do it?

00:12:10.680 How much, you know, what is the size of the police force?

00:12:13.820 What are their priorities?

00:12:14.920 How much time are they wasted in bureaucracy and red tape and filling in forms?

00:12:19.160 I don't know that.

00:12:19.800 I don't operate the police force.

00:12:21.020 Right, right, right.

00:12:21.700 All I know is I pay a tax for them to serve my business

00:12:25.900 and provide policing that protects my business,

00:12:28.680 and they're not doing it.

00:12:29.880 So something somewhere is broken.

00:12:32.180 When you get into how would they deal with this,

00:12:34.580 well, it's complex.

00:12:36.240 We have prisons that are full.

00:12:38.160 Is throwing somebody who is a drug addict into prison

00:12:41.400 for their first shoplifting offense a sensible idea?

00:12:45.660 I don't know.

00:12:46.400 I'm not an expert.

00:12:47.880 But I certainly think somebody who's been arrested 30 times or 50 times,

00:12:52.120 I know the stats are, I wish I had a couple of the stats here,

00:12:54.700 but I know the stats are that a very high number of the antisocial crimes

00:12:59.720 are committed by a very small sense of the population.

00:13:03.260 Yes.

00:13:04.120 But, you know, my job is to operate a cafe to be profitable.

00:13:08.760 Yes.

00:13:08.980 My job is to operate a bar to be profitable.

00:13:11.400 I pay my, you know, this is a division of responsibilities.

00:13:15.820 I pay my tax for them to provide that service,

00:13:18.780 and they're not providing it.

00:13:20.320 So my answer is to consider a private security option in the town.

00:13:26.540 And that is a common thing that's happening now.

00:13:28.760 Up and down the country, businesses or residents of certain neighborhoods

00:13:33.280 are getting together and employing private security to protect them

00:13:37.180 because the police are not doing their job.

00:13:39.140 Yes.

00:13:39.880 Yes.

00:13:40.160 No, it's happening across the board, and I think there's a bigger theme

00:13:45.120 of the state refusing to do a lot of its basic duties,

00:13:50.940 from border enforcement to policing to even, you know,

00:13:58.700 obviously everybody knows that the NHS is collapsing.

00:14:00.740 And you see these governments that have shared the same ideology.

00:14:05.700 One question I wanted to ask you,

00:14:07.900 do you feel that there is real intellectual ideological diversity in British politics?

00:14:14.900 I think there is, but I think it's decreasing.

00:14:17.560 Right.

00:14:19.280 I don't feel there is much of a difference now between the Conservative Party and the Labour Party.

00:14:27.900 I write off the Green Party as communists.

00:14:30.360 I have zero interest in anything they have to say.

00:14:32.300 I've listened to their ideas regarding economics and diversity, and I just write them off.

00:14:39.460 They're not a serious party to me.

00:14:41.760 I don't have very much of an interest in the Liberal Democrats.

00:14:45.160 I think that's a party for the Islington elite.

00:14:47.260 Right.

00:14:47.740 So if you look at what's left between Labour and Conservatives,

00:14:51.780 the Conservative Party over the last two decades have drifted to the centre,

00:14:57.660 left to the centre, maybe left of centre now.

00:15:01.620 And if you look at the Labour Party, in only eight months or nine months they've been in power,

00:15:06.380 they've tried to be a left-wing party as much as the current Labour Party is a left-wing party,

00:15:11.940 and they're now drifting to the right.

00:15:13.020 So there's this kind of convergence between them, and it's serving little purpose.

00:15:20.480 It's serving little benefit to the voters of this country.

00:15:23.800 There is low voter turnout.

00:15:25.880 There's massive distrust in government.

00:15:27.900 The only option that seems to have come to the table, which is a viable alternative, is the Reform Party.

00:15:34.020 But even with reform, I fear that they either cannot make the changes that are required

00:15:39.700 or that they are still going to be adopting a lot of left-wing economic ideas.

00:15:44.820 The signal coming from the party recently has been to continue to support a welfare state.

00:15:49.900 And I get it.

00:15:50.480 They're trying to win votes.

00:15:51.460 They want the voting blocs.

00:15:52.980 They are proposing policies which oppose some of the policies which Labour have put in place

00:15:59.000 to reduce the welfare state.

00:16:00.600 They're now opposing that, which obviously then becomes a risk.

00:16:03.440 They are also generally a left-wing party.

00:16:05.900 What I don't think we really have is a true, very strong, conservative, libertarian party,

00:16:14.320 a party that really understands why we need small government, why we need free markets,

00:16:20.840 why we should trust the decentralized idea of the market.

00:16:25.400 I don't think that exists in mainstream politics at the moment.

00:16:29.860 And that, to me, is quite depressing, really, because it just means we are going to continue

00:16:33.940 on this path of big state, surveillance state, high taxation, high borrowing, high inflation,

00:16:41.340 low-growth, stagnant economy, which is leading to this economic and moral collapse of our country.

00:16:47.440 Talk to me about the moral side of it.

00:16:49.600 What do you see there?

00:16:52.040 What do you mean by that?

00:16:53.360 And be expansive.

00:16:55.620 I mean, it's just what you see.

00:16:56.900 I mean, look, there's certain signals that I see that our country is losing discipline.

00:17:04.320 Yes.

00:17:04.740 And so there's a Twitter account I follow.

00:17:07.040 It's all about police incidents in London, a crime incidents in London.

00:17:10.320 I can't remember which one it's called.

00:17:11.660 But almost every day now, you will see somebody go into a Tesco's or a Gregg's or a Prêt-a-Manger

00:17:18.680 with a bag, with a shopping bag, and they'll just fill it with stuff and walk out.

00:17:23.860 And you can see the staff there, and you can see the security there.

00:17:26.860 And I don't know if they're instructed not to do anything, but the people going in and

00:17:31.180 stealing are doing so because they know there will be no repercussions, or they don't care

00:17:36.360 about the repercussions.

00:17:37.940 This has an impact on business.

00:17:39.520 Now, you go into a local Tesco's and you feel like you're going into what the banks used

00:17:44.600 to do in case there was somebody coming to rob the bank.

00:17:48.740 We have these big kind of plastic shields between the staff and the customers.

00:17:56.460 I mean, that's not the local grocer that we know from growing up where you go and you

00:18:03.140 have a relationship with them.

00:18:04.120 It's this kind of barrier between you and them.

00:18:06.880 Everything is tagged or locked behind cabinets.

00:18:10.220 We even had it in my local Sainsbury's now.

00:18:11.820 If you take a stake off the shelf, it sounds an alarm in the Sainsbury's.

00:18:18.420 So that means we've got soft on petty crime.

00:18:22.480 We've accepted it.

00:18:24.240 That is the same acceptance that we have with the open drug dealing and drug taking.

00:18:29.640 That is a problem.

00:18:31.100 And so I think it's this kind of weird acceptance of a lack of discipline around the rules,

00:18:37.580 you know, the rules and order that create a function in society.

00:18:42.080 But I also blame it on the kind of economic failure of this country in that the larger

00:18:49.400 the state grows, the more it impoverishes people.

00:18:52.320 The more it impoverishes people, the more desperate people get.

00:18:55.780 And like I say, if you're below the poverty line and you cannot afford to make ends meet,

00:19:04.780 what are the options?

00:19:05.900 You maybe have friends or family.

00:19:07.160 What if that's not an option?

00:19:08.500 You maybe have a food bank.

00:19:09.620 What if that's not an option?

00:19:11.060 You maybe go and steal something from a shop.

00:19:13.580 Or if you've fallen between the cracks of society and you've lost your home and you've

00:19:18.260 ended up on the streets and ended up with an addiction issue, what have you got to lose

00:19:21.680 by walking in a shop and stealing from it?

00:19:24.780 Interestingly, I found out there's this whole secondary economy that now exists on Facebook.

00:19:28.800 Because if you go and look at the things people are stealing, yes, they might be stealing alcohol,

00:19:32.340 but they're also stealing large chocolate bars.

00:19:35.280 They're stealing washing powder.

00:19:38.040 There's this secondary marketplace on Facebook where the shoplifters are going to resell the

00:19:43.520 items they've stolen in order to fund their addiction.

00:19:47.000 And so we could pick any subject for us, but it feels like in every direction, everything

00:19:53.840 we measure about a functioning, ordered, prosperous society, everything, every measure is going

00:20:00.200 in the wrong direction.

00:20:00.920 If you enjoyed this piece of premium content from the Lotus Eaters, head to our website where

00:20:05.620 you can find more.

The Podcast of the Lotus Eaters - August 18, 2025

PREVIEW： Realpolitik #9 ｜ The UK Is Unrecognisable with Peter McCormack

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